⁵⁴²

Tuesday, 19 February 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's now for you to cross-examine the witness if you wish to. Since this is the first witness and since you're representing yourself, you should be told about the purpose and limitations of cross-examination.

The purpose of cross-examination is to ask questions, to test the witness's evidence and credibility, that is, whether he or she should be believed or not. According to the Tribunal's Rules, it is limited to the subject matter of the evidence in chief, that is the evidence given in answer to questions from the Prosecution and to questions as to credibility. It is also the opportunity to ask questions relating to your case, that is the case which you wish to put forward in your defence. The Trial Chamber may permit questions on other matters. Cross-examination is subject to the control of the Trial Chamber in order to make it effective for the ascertainment of the truth and avoid the needless consumption of time. It is restricted to matters relevant to the issues in the trial and must not be used as a way of harassing or intimidating witnesses. Any questions which may reveal the identity of protected witnesses must be asked in closed session. This statement will be put into writing and given to the accused. Now, Mr. Milosevic, do you have any questions for the witness? ⁵⁴³

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I was able to understand, Mr. Bakalli is a protected witness.

JUDGE MAY: Let me see. We've had that translated. He's not a protected witness; he's Mr. Bakalli. So you can ask anything about his identity if you wish.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I read in the papers that he was a protected witness. And then they published that it was -- they were referring to Bakalli, speaking of that protected witness, but thank you for the information you've just given me.

If you ensure that the witness gives me yes and no answers, then I shall be, of course, brief.

WITNESS: MAHMUT BAKALLI [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] You said, Mr. Bakalli, that Kosovo private parallel schools were set up because of apartheid. Yes or no? Could you give me a yes or no answer, please?

A. Yes, but they weren't private, but they were public schools. They were not state schools of Serbia.

Q. And to which state did those schools belong?

A. There were elementary schools, secondary schools, university. They were all under the Serbian Ministry of Education, financed from Serbia, with Serb curricula which you organised.

Q. I'm speaking about the parallel schools. You said -- you mentioned parallel private schools because of apartheid. You mentioned ⁵⁴⁴ that you organised parallel schools because of apartheid. Now, I would like your answer, yes or no, please. Did you or didn't you?

A. Yes, except we didn't call them private schools, and they were not private schools. They were public schools, where the people collected money, the population, as far as they could.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, just keep the answers as short as you can.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said you were a professor of sociology at the university in Pristina?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you consider that every student of sociology, each one of your students, should be able to explain what apartheid is?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you explain to us what apartheid means? What is apartheid?

A. Apartheid with yes or no, or do you want the opinion of a professor?

JUDGE MAY: A short --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm asking you to explain to us what apartheid is.

JUDGE MAY: A short explanation, Mr. Bakalli, please.

A. Okay. If collectivity, a group, a national group or a racial group, is put by the state into a position outside of the government, outside of the economy, thrown out of education and cultural affairs, that is apartheid. ⁵⁴⁵

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The school curriculum for Kosovo, was it different from the school curriculum for children all over Serbia?

A. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Just give us an example.

A. For example, history of the Albanian people, which was foreseen under the autonomy system, was eliminated under the Serbian curricula later, and there are other examples of this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I don't think you understand me. Obviously you haven't. I didn't ask you what the curriculum and programme was in your private schools. What I'm asking you is about the programme, the curriculum, of state schools throughout the territory of Serbia, which was the same for all schools and all children in Serbia. It was a universal curriculum. Now, according to that state Serb curriculum, was the programme different for Albanian children? According to the Serb curriculum for state schools throughout the territory, did Albanian children have a different programme, different from all the other children in Serbia? That's what I'm asking.

A. As far as I know, there was no difference, or difference in the curricula for Albanian language education. It was a unified programme for all of Serbia, for the Albanians and for the Serbs in Kosovo.

Q. That means that all children in Serbia followed the same school programme, the same curriculum?

A. Yes. ⁵⁴⁶

Q. In state schools for the Albanian children, was tuition in the Albanian language?

A. It could have been, but they did not accept such schools, to go to such schools, because you imposed the curricula. You people imposed the leaders, the principals of the schools, and the heads of the faculties.

Q. Just a moment, please. A moment ago you agreed with me that the school programme, the curriculum, was the same for all the children of Serbia, in Serbia, and now you -- I'm asking you whether, for the Albanian children, tuition is Albanian, and you said yes, it was, for those who went to state schools, but that they didn't want to go to state schools because we imposed a programme on them. Now, I claim that for all Albanian children, tuition was in the Albanian language. Is that correct or is it not? I'm talking about state schools.

A. They were not in Albanian, or there were not Albanian schools in Albanian language in Kosovo, because the education system was radically changed and the Albanian population refused to take part in it.

Q. Do you claim that the Albanian children didn't go to state schools at all?

A. I would say that almost no one went to them. Perhaps there were a few minor exceptions. I don't know of any students who did go to such schools.

Q. How many exceptions were there, Albanians who went to state schools? Give us an example. Roughly how many Albanians going to state schools?

A. I don't know. I don't really think there were any exceptions, but ⁵⁴⁷ it could be that there were. I don't know.

Q. Well, you say you don't know how many of them there were. Was tuition in Albanian for them, for those?

A. I don't know. I don't really know of any student or pupil who went to the school, into that school system, once it was put under apartheid.

Q. So what you're saying is the following: You're saying something that in fact you now say you don't know.

A. No. I said that I knew that Albanians had taken part in the Serbian educational system. What I don't know is if there were Albanians taking part in your education system. That I don't know. I don't think so, but I am not sure. There could have been.

Q. Why do you say "our" education system? You used the word "our." Did you consider that the Albanians were citizens of Serbia or not?

A. From the moment that the parliament of Kosova approved the Constitution of Kosova, they did not feel themselves that they were any longer citizens of Serbia.

Q. We'll come to that later, but a moment ago you used the word "apartheid" again. I should suggest that you read the United Nations definition of "apartheid" before you do so again. What about the Hungarian children? Did the Hungarian children follow the same curriculum as all the other children in Serbia?

A. That had been regulated earlier with school curricula under the autonomy status in Vojvodina. This was also for the Hungarian students. What happened later, once you came to power, I don't know what ⁵⁴⁸ happened to the Hungarians in the Vojvodina.

Q. You said yourself that you were an intellectual who always wrote since 1981 to the present day, and you say you don't know what was going on in your own country. Yes or no?

A. You don't have the right, because I have observed events, but I can't tell you in detail of what happened to school curricula, the school curricula of the Albanian state who -- of the Serb state. I can't tell you if the Hungarians in the Vojvodina accepted them or not.

Q. We have taken note of the fact that throughout Serbia all the children had the same school programme, the same curriculum. And then I went on to ask you, because you say you don't know how many Albanian children attended tuition in the Albanian language, I asked you whether you know whether the Hungarian children had tuition in Hungarian, the Bulgarian children in Bulgarian, and so on and so forth. Do you know anything about that either? You don't seem to. You don't know that either. Just say yes or no. You don't have to go into any lengthy explanations. You don't know, I see.

A. No, I don't.

Q. So you don't know whether in Serbia the members of the Bulgarian minority attended tuition in Bulgarian. You don't know that either?

A. No, I don't know.

Q. Do you consider that the school programme which was in force for all children in Serbia should not be enforced for Albanian children?

A. It's good for school programmes to be universal for everyone but with concrete, specific elements, in particular, for national elements, ⁵⁴⁹ for national specific elements. And from the year 1974 onwards, we had school curricula which were approved by the parliament of Kosova, and they had no relations -- Serbia had no right of interference under the Constitution in such school curricula.

Q. As we are not challenging the fact that national minorities in Serbia and national -- that national minorities in Serbia are able to attend tuition in their own languages, and as the Albanian children were taught and had tuition in Albanian and were taught the Albanian literature and all other subjects were taught in the Albanian language, do you consider that there is a special Albanian mathematics, physics, biology, chemistry, without going into the exact natural sciences. Philosophy, for example. Was there a separate Albanian Plato, Aristotle, John Moore or anybody like that? Giordano Bruno, perhaps? Galileo Galilei, and so on and so forth?

In your opinion, apart from the element of language - and the language element was guaranteed to one and all - why would you think that the school curriculum for Albanian children should be different than for all the other children in Yugoslavia?

A. Not only for Albanian children but for the children of all the nationalities of Yugoslavia. Which -- with the exception of mathematics. Giordano Bruno, of course, was common to all the nationalities, but each one did have its own curricula. Not for natural sciences but for history and for culture and for language.

Q. Well, I don't suppose you're challenging as far as culture and language is concerned and overall tuition that every national minority was ⁵⁵⁰ able to be taught in their own language in all state schools. Was the Albanian language -- was Albanian the official language in Kosovo up until this war?

A. Yes, on the basis of the Constitution of 1974.

Q. And you say that it wasn't on the basis of the change in the Constitution, that it wasn't an official language. Is that what you're saying? You are under a solemn declaration here, Mr. Bakalli.

A. You needn't remind me of that. The language of the administration under Milosevic was -- you could use Albanian for some documents.

Q. For what documents couldn't the Albanian language be used?

A. I'm sorry. That is a subject for which I'm not an expert, legal questions. I am not in a position to reply to that, Your Honours.

Q. All right. If an Albanian is taken to court, was it considered that he could address the court only in Albanian?

A. Yes. Many of the prisoners whom you took under your reign could -- formally were given the right to reply in Albanian, yes.

Q. What do you mean when you say "formally"? Does it mean that that right was not accorded to them on a regular basis; yes or no?

A. They were not banned from using their language in court. The question is rather: Why were they in court?

JUDGE MAY: For the moment, the question is: What language were they allowed to use? And the answer is: They were allowed to use Albanian. Thank you.

A. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁵⁵¹

Q. You also said that the Serbian government didn't want to implement the agreement on the education system.

A. Yes.

Q. The three-plus-three-plus-three group, is that something that is known to you? I'm talking about the group on behalf of the government of Serbia was led by Minister Vlatomir Vico; on behalf of the Albanian side, it was Professor Fehmi Agani; and on behalf of Centar Ucidi, it was Dom Vicenzo Pajla. Do you know about this group? Have you heard about it? Yes or no?

A. I know about it because I've worked for it. I brought the documents which you yourself signed. But I did not work in it precisely.

Q. You spoke about the subject, and therefore, I assume that if you talk about a subject, you know something about that subject. You said that no results were achieved. You said that nothing had been done, nothing implemented.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember -- do you remember - and give me a yes or no answer, please - that up until September, the month of September that year, the Albanian side took over the technical faculty, 20.000 square metres in all, and the faculty of economics and faculty of law, which amounted to 16.000 square metres? Do you remember that; yes or no?

A. Yes. A process began, sort of, but it was sabotaged, and there was no success. It was never realised under the -- according to the document.

Q. How do you consider that it was sabotaged if the Albanian side, in ⁵⁵² material terms, took over the buildings, which amounted to 20.000 square metres, 16.000 square metres? How, then, do you say that this was sabotage? It took possession of those buildings in order to organise its tuition at the faculties, at the university. Do you consider that to be sabotage; yes or no?

A. I'm convinced, yes, that from what I heard from Fehmi Agani, and Fehmi Agani told you at that meeting, in May, that they were totally unsatisfied with the reaction of the Serbian side and with the contacts between the Albanian and Serbian sides, under the aegis of San Edjidio.

Q. Leave aside May and everything you've just said about that meeting. Let's leave that aside for the moment. We'll go into that later on. What I'm asking you now is the following: In your opinion, is it possible to describe a sabotage, the implementation of a programme, when the material fact is that at the university, they took over buildings which were 20.000 square metres large and 16.000 square metres large; yes or no?

A. I don't think that was a realisation or implementation of any kind. I don't think that was the realisation of the agreement.

Q. For our listeners, let me add that this was the peak, the top. As for secondary and primary schools, everything had already been solved; yes or no?

A. This did not apply to the elementary or the high school all the time. They have worked in the cellars in private homes.

Q. You claim, therefore, that the Albanians did not go to primary and secondary schools, state ones? ⁵⁵³

A. Yes.

Q. So you said that the only possibility for schooling Albanians was the parallel system of schools?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Were the rights of Albanian children to attend classes in Albanian language denied to them?

A. Yes, because they were denied of having their own programme.

Q. And what is the body that approves the curriculum in any country?

A. In our country, it was the Minister of Education, to all children in Serbia. Thus, in Kosova, we had the Pedagogical Council of Kosova, as a body of the parliament of Kosova, under the Constitution of 1974.

Q. We'll get to that Constitution later on. My question referred to whether somebody denied the right to Albanian children to attend classes in Albanian. Please reply with yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. So you are claiming that Albanian children were not able to attend classes in Albanian?

A. Only under the illegal system, only in the cellars. In the state schools, no.

Q. So you are claiming that in state schools, Albanian children did not attend classes in Albanian language. In state schools, Albanian children could not attend classes in Albanian language; is that what you're claiming? Yes or no?

THE INTERPRETER: The witness replied: "Excellent."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁵⁵⁴

Q. You also said yesterday that my speech in Gazimestan directly led to changes in the Constitution; yes or no?

A. It is not exactly so. I said that after that, we had the amendments to the Constitution, but your speech in Gazimestan was a speech, in my view, that was a programme of war.

Q. Okay. We'll, let's leave that aside for the time being. So you said, and then you repeated again today, that after my speech in Gazimestan, the Constitution was changed. All right. Do you remember the date of the Kosovo battle? Do you know that that took place on the 28th of June, 1389?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you know that 600 years was celebrated on the same day in 1989, on the 20th of June?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. All right. Is it true that the Serbian Assembly proclaimed changes or amendments to the Constitution on the 28th of March, 1989, which means three months prior to the speech to which you ascribe the fact that it led to changes in the Constitution? You just said a moment ago that after my speech, there were changes in the Constitution, and now I'm giving you the dates that were actually formally recorded as being the 28th of March, 1989. This is three months before the date after which you claim the Constitution had been changed. So what is going on here, Mr. Bakalli?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Yes, the point is made that the changes were three months before ⁵⁵⁵ the speech. Now, Mr. Bakalli, what's your answer to that?

A. The initiative was taken earlier, but it does not relate to what I'm saying. Yesterday I did not at all say that his address -- that they immediately led to the constitutional changes. I referred to it before Your Honours because I thought that it was kind of a call for war, a programme for war, and the initiative, the legal initiative to make the constitutional amendment was taken a couple of months ago. But, as I said yesterday, the Constitution was changed in an unlawful way through use of force. I do not relate his speech to the changes of the Constitution, as something that happened right away, as he's claiming.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Bakalli, just a while ago, two minutes ago, you said that the changes in the Constitution took place after my speech in Gazimestan. Yes or no, please. At any rate, everyone was able to hear that.

A. I think that the essence of the constitutional changes is related to your speech in Gazimestan.

Q. Even after that?

A. After your speech, the changes occurred.

Q. Could you please quote what you're saying from my speech?

A. What really impressed me, but I don't have the document with me here, what I -- it really impressed me at that time was the -- your way of addressing it more or less, so that we in Yugoslavia today are waging a political struggle, a struggle waged may assume proportions of an armed war. All what I got from your speech in Gazimestan was the impression that you unfurled a programme of military action or crisis in Yugoslavia. ⁵⁵⁶ This is what I had the impression then. This is what I wrote about, and this is what I'm telling this Honourable Court today.

Q. Okay. I didn't say what you just said, but you did say what we heard from the Prosecution, and this is something that I disputed here when I gave my opening speech.

Are you able to provide to me what you wrote at the time? I would be able to give you my speech and newspapers from 1989 containing my speech. Are you able to give me the other papers? You indicated here time, struggle, and you indicated here newspapers Vreme and some other of our newspapers. So would you be able to show me these articles of yours that were published in these papers?

A. No, because at that moment I did not write in Nasa Borba and Vreme, but I did write in Albanian-language papers, in a letter I sent to Eagleburger which I published in Vjesnik in Zagreb and in Albanian paper in Pristina. But I don't have them with me now so that I can cite them.

Q. All right. But you would be able to provide that for us in Albanian, in Serbian, in Croatian, the articles that were published in the Vjesnik paper. So you would be able to do that? Yes or no? And we would be able to see from those papers how you explained that I in fact issued a call for war in Gazimestan. Is this what you're claiming, that this is what it says in your text?

A. I've written there that there you made public a militant -- unfurled, I'm saying, a militant programme. I didn't say you declared war but that you have unfurled, as I'm saying, a militant, a military programme, militant programme. ⁵⁵⁷

Q. You said what you've said. Everything's been recorded in the transcript, so we'll be able to compare and see whether what you said here was in fact printed somewhere or you lied under oath. But let's leave that aside for the time being.

Is it true -- is it true that the Assembly of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo -- I apologise. Let me ask you something else that has to do with what you mentioned.

When I said the 28th of March, you said, "Well, yes, some initiatives were launched." On the 28th of March, initiatives were not launched. On the 28th of March, there was a final act that took place. So on the 28th of March, 1989, there was a final proclamation of the Constitution at the session of the Serbian Assembly. So there were no initiatives. That had started much earlier. A final act took place on the 28th of March.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we must move on to a question. What's the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On the 28th of March, which is in fact three months prior to the 28th of June, that was the day when the final act of proclamation of the Constitution of Serbia took place. Yes or no?

A. I don't know remember the dates exactly. I cannot pronounce my views on that.

Q. The reply is very important, because yesterday you said, and then once again repeated here, that the changes took place after the speech in Gazimestan. ⁵⁵⁸

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I think we've dealt with this point. You've made your point. The witness says he doesn't remember the date. We've got the evidence, and we'll have to consider it in due course. If you'd like to move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that the Assembly of Kosovo accepted constitutional changes prior to the 28th of March? Yes or no?

A. I say no. This is the argument, please, that the parliament of Kosovo was surrounded by police and tanks. I have personal information --

JUDGE MAY: Don't let us continue this argument. We've continued long enough on the 28th of March. Let's move on to another topic, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not the same topic, Judge May, because there are some other issues that are linked to this which are very important. As we're talking about the Constitution --

JUDGE MAY: Let's have another question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that the Assembly of Serbia, pursuant to the Constitution then in force, would be unable to implement these changes without a previous approval of the Kosovo Assembly? Thank you. Now, did the Kosovo Assembly approve this decision on adopting the constitutional amendments? Yes or no?

A. It is not a matter of saying yes or no. I can say yes, but it was under the pressure of tanks which were outside the parliament building.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues] ... ⁵⁵⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You were the only one who saw those tanks. What I'm asking you is this: Did the Constitution -- did the Assembly pass this decision on adopting constitutional amendments? Yes or no?

A. Yes, with force, use of force.

Q. Is it true that at the session of the Kosovo Assembly only 14 deputies voted against this proposal?

A. Some were braver and said, "Irrespective of violence, I don't agree with the changes."

Q. What I asked is whether it is true that only 14 deputies in the Kosovo Assembly voted against this proposal. Yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Please try to focus on the answer. Is it true that a member of the Constitutional Commission of Serbia was from Kosovo, and his name was Professor Surija Popovci. He was also an Albanian, which perhaps is not immediately obvious to everybody here. Is it true that a member of the Constitutional Commission of Serbia was an Albanian and was from Kosovo? Is it true that Professor Popovci appeared on television prior to the session of the Assembly and supported the amendments?

A. Yes, but, please ask me a question why he appeared on television. Please ask me.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are kindly asking the speakers to pause between question and answer. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: The interpreters have a request, first of all, that there should be a pause, both of you, between question and answer, so ⁵⁶⁰ could you keep that in mind.

Yes. Mr. Bakalli, after you've been cross-examined, the Prosecution will have a chance to re-examine you, which means that if there are any matters, relevant matters, which they want to ask about or you want to give explanations about, you can do it then. Meanwhile, just concentrate, if you would, on answering the questions. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know who Sinan Hasani is?

A. Yes.

Q. At the time constitutional changes were implemented, was Sinan Hasani President of the Presidency of Yugoslavia?

A. Yes. He was Chairman of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, and he was on our side.

Q. Sinan Hasani is an Albanian, and he was President of the Presidency of Yugoslavia. He attended the session of the Serbian Assembly during which the Constitution was promulgated on the 28th of March. Is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that also all other high officials on the federal and republic level of Albanian nationality were present as well? Yes or no?

A. That is not true. Sinan, yes.

Q. Are you claiming that only Sinan Hasani was present from the Albanian side?

A. Probably there has been someone else. I don't remember. ⁵⁶¹

Q. At that time, who held the position of the Chairman of the Province Party Board at the time? Was that position held by an Albanian or a Serb?

A. An Albanian whom you have appointed. You brought him.

Q. My question was: Was that person an Albanian or a Serb?

A. An Albanian.

Q. Were other Albanians who were present there, did they come because I appointed them?

A. Gentlemen, please. When you deprive a society of its constitutional position, don't believe that they are happy to come to a meeting when you have deprived them, stripped them of their constitutional rights. Hasani was there, but you have to ask him why he was there.

Q. Who appointed Sinan Hasani to the Presidency of the -- of Yugoslavia, to be the President of the Presidency?

A. To say it bluntly, you, because Albania was under the influence and tutelage of Serbia.

Q. Sinan Hasani was elected by the Kosovo Assembly as a member of the Yugoslav Presidency much prior to that. Why don't you carefully consider this? Perhaps you made a mistake.

A. No, no. I'm not wrong. You are wrong. Sinan Hasani came to the Presidency of Yugoslavia after you were elected Chairman of Serbia.

Q. So you claim that I was the one who appointed Sinan Hasani to the Presidency of Yugoslavia. Is that what you're claiming? Yes or no, please?

A. Yes. ⁵⁶²

Q. Excellent.

THE INTERPRETER: The witness replied: "You're welcome."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did any of the Albanian deputies who had attended the session of the Serbian Assembly which promulgated the Constitution dispute this Constitution? Yes or no?

A. I don't -- you mean in the Serb parliament?

Q. It was not a Serb Assembly. It was an Assembly of the Republic of Serbia.

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know who Muharrem Ismaili is?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he a friend of yours and also a director of a bank in Kosovo, also an Albanian?

A. He's a Kosovar Albanian. He was the director of Kosova Bank. He is no longer there. And he's a friend of mine. I don't know why you're asking me.

Q. Because I want to put another question to you. Did you ask him to come and talk to me?

A. Never. That's not true. I have never talked with him that I wanted to talk with you. Never. I've never done that.

Q. So you are saying that you did not ask, through Muharrem Ismaili, to come and see me?

A. I say in my full responsibility, no.

Q. Yesterday you told us how the local security chief, Gajic, under ⁵⁶³ inverted commas, told you about the "Scorched Earth Plan," the so-called "Scorched Earth Plan." Wasn't it logical for you to bring up this issue while talking to me; yes or no?

A. Yes, I could have done that, but I did not. I didn't want to become -- to convey the views of others. Maybe I should have done that. I should have done that.

Q. Thank you. This is enough material for us to give us an idea of how seriously you assessed this matter. You told us yourself that you were involved in scheduling a meeting with -- headed by Mr. Rugova in order to find a political solution; yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. You also said that the delegation of the Serbian government, headed by Deputy Prime Minister Ratko Markovic, came only once and held only one meeting with your representatives in Kosovo.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that two meetings between the Serbian delegation and the Albanian side produced joint communiques and that there are joint communiques from two meetings, whereas you said that there wasn't a communique from that single meeting? So is it true that there were, in fact, two meetings; yes or no?

A. We had only one meeting between the two delegations, and we issued two separate communiques. We didn't have two meetings.

Q. Is it true that the delegation of the government of Serbia, headed by the deputy prime minister, Professor Ratko Markovic, came to Pristina 11 times to attend previously scheduled meetings which were not attended ⁵⁶⁴ by the Albanian representatives. We were able to see this on television every time, Mr. Bakalli. You don't need to be specifically informed of this. Is it true that this delegation went to Pristina 11 times and the Albanian side failed to show up? Mr. Bakalli, yesterday --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let him answer.

A. It may be that the delegation headed by Professor Markovic has come. We have often seen delegations from Serbia coming to Pristina. I went to receive the Albanian side, but these meetings were the result of an arrogance dictated by them as being the HOS.

JUDGE MAY: Let's try and get to the bottom of it. What's being put is that there was not simply one meeting, but there were occasions at which the Serbian delegation came to Kosovo to meet, but the Albanian representatives, as I understand it, didn't come. Now, is that the case or not?

A. Yes, but these meetings were not planned beforehand. Yes, there are some cases.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There were 11 such cases; yes or no, Mr. Bakalli?

A. I have not kept track of them. I don't know.

Q. Do you know that they were not scheduled; yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. So you know that these cases, of whose existence you are not aware, were not scheduled previously?

A. Yes. As I said, they were unscheduled before, as such, to conduct genuine negotiations. ⁵⁶⁵

Q. When asked by the Prosecutor yesterday, you replied that there was no will to conduct negotiations on the Serbian side. This is the reply you gave. You can check this. You, in fact, said that the Serbian side was not willing to discuss political settlement. And now here, we can see that they, in fact, travelled to Pristina 11 times and, in fact, your side was not willing to negotiate; yes or no?

A. It is not true. It is not true that the Serb side was particularly interested in discussing the status and political issues related to Kosovo position. It was the Albanian side that was interested in such issues. Your delegations came more to deliver lectures against terrorism, to calm down the situation, to calm down the citizens so that it would be easier for you to rule over us, but not to resolve the question of the status of Kosova under the expression of the will of the Albanian people.

Q. Let's leave aside the expressions you used, such as the expression of "the will of the Albanian people." That's not what I asked you. What I asked you was: Is it true that the delegation, after a meeting between me and Rugova, at which you yourself were present, came to Pristina 11 times to continue those negotiations and that communiques were issued from only two meetings, whereas the other attempts were blocked by you and that you now claim that it was the Serbian side which came to Pristina on 11 occasions, did not have the goodwill to negotiate? Is that what you're saying; yes or no?

A. It is not true. Mr. Milosevic, you have confused, I think -- you are confusing some issues. After the first and last meeting between the ⁵⁶⁶ two delegations - and I was a member of the Albanian delegation - we did not receive any offer or did not have any other meetings as such.

Q. You therefore claim that what I have just asked you, and whether -- I asked you whether that is correct or not. Your answer is that it is not correct. Am I reading you correctly? Is it correct that the federal premier, an American otherwise - his name is Milan Panic - sometime in 1993, together with Vance and Owen, went to Kosovo and that then too nobody wished to talk to them?

A. As far as I know, no, because the prime minister of Yugoslavia did meet with Ibrahim Rugova, if you remember. They were taken in a picture with both hands up. But I don't think it has much bearing to this issue we are discussing.

JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about that. The answer is you don't know; is that right?

A. No, I don't remember.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Bakalli, you were an advisor to Demaci; is that correct?

A. Yes, for a couple of months before the beginning of the conference of Rambouillet.

Q. Thank you. So you were an advisor of Adem Demaci and you have just confirmed that. Now, as far as I remember - and this is my next question - as far as I remember, you said yesterday that you had nothing to do with the KLA. Now, if I'm not remembering this correctly, or perhaps I didn't hear it correctly, I'm asking you now: Did you have any connections with the KLA? ⁵⁶⁷

A. With the troops of the National Liberation Army of Kosova and with the staff, the General Staff, I had no connections. As I said, I did have contacts as an advisor - orientations, political and diplomatic advice for the KLA, which was coming up publicly and legally - and in Pristina, contacts with Demaci, a few months, two or three months before the Rambouillet conference. And there was a disagreement between me and Mr. Demaci, so I insisted that the KLA take part in the conference at Rambouillet, irrespective of the initial policies and platforms of the Rambouillet conference. They didn't take into consideration all the aspirations of the Albanian people, but Rambouillet was an important international factor for solving the Kosovo issue in a peaceful and political manner, and at the same time, it helped to affirm the international presence of the KLA. So I insisted that the KLA take part in the Rambouillet conference.

Q. As you have finished with giving us an explanation which I didn't ask you for, I have to go back to my question. You confirmed a moment ago that you were an advisor to Demaci, and you also confirmed a moment ago that you had nothing to do with the KLA.

A. With the troops, no.

Q. Yesterday your answer was that you had nothing to do with the KLA, and it is common knowledge that Demaci is the head of the political wing of the KLA. You are now trying to bypass the truth, if I can put it that way, because you say you had no contacts with the troops. I didn't ask you about which soldier or terrorist you contacted with. My question was: Did you have any connection or links with the KLA? Adem Demaci was ⁵⁶⁸ the head of the political wing of the KLA and you were his advisor; is that correct?

A. I'd like to alter my answer slightly. I had contacts with the KLA, in the form of suggestions, advice, political advice. But I don't want to hide anything; in fact, I'm proud of this.

Q. I did not ask you whether you shot or placed bombs or anything else. I just asked you whether you had any connections with the KLA.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Mr. Milosevic, he's given an explanation of what he says his connection with the KLA was, so we've heard that. Now, can we go on to the next point?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we can, we can.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, you are a deputy in the Assembly of Kosovo, and you are in the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo; yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Yesterday you said that you were an independent intellectual, a deputy, and not that you were a deputy of the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo; yes or no?

A. You changed the question and asked me now I should say yes or no. Just give me a moment to explain. I was a deputy on the list of the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo, because the elections took place on a proportional system and the parties have closed lists. I was asked, as an independent intellectual, to put my name on their list, and I still -- but I still remain independent as such. I like the alliance, I like the people who are in it, so I accepted to have my name put on the list. They called me, and so I did it. As such, I am an independent deputy in the ⁵⁶⁹ parliament of Kosova, from the list of the alliance, and am a member of the parliamentary group of the Alliance for the Future of Kosova. I don't see what is contradictory here. But I am not a member of any party and I have never been a member, and today I am not a member of the Alliance Party.

Q. You are a deputy of the alliance. That is what you have confirmed yourself and that is common knowledge. Everybody knows that who knows what parliamentary elections are. You are on their list, a deputy on their list, a deputy of the alliance; yes or no?

A. Yes, I'm on the list of the alliance.

Q. Is the president of the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo Ramus Aradinai?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you an advisor of Ramus Aradinai now, at present?

A. Should he need my advice, I give it to him.

Q. Do you know, in connection with your president, the president of the alliance, that as he wrote, as Elefteros Tipos wrote, according to reports of the British service, where he is called the Mafia Ramus, that Aradinai, is head of the Albanian underground and he engages in trafficking and dirty work in the Balkans and the whole of Europe? Do you know that?

A. I do not know that, and that is exactly the opposite of my opinion. I have a very high consideration of Ramus Aradinai.

Q. All I'm asking you is whether you know what Elefteros wrote about him, and I quoted what he said. It is a newspaper. ⁵⁷⁰

A. What is Elefteros Tipos anyway?

Q. Do you know that there is a Mafia in Djakovica for smuggling tobacco, armaments, and this is Ramus Aradinai who is in charge of that, your President? Are you aware of that?

A. No, I don't know that. I know that he was a good -- he's a good person. He was a very good commander. He was a very skilful commander, and is a good, young politician.

Q. 1986, he did his military service in the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army, and after that, for a number of years, he was in the French Foreign Legion. Do you know that?

A. The one I know and the other I didn't know. I have never asked him, so he never told me.

Q. Do you know that he was the organiser of armed activities by Albanian terrorists in Macedonia and in Southern Serbia in recent months? Do you know about that?

A. No. On the contrary. But I know on the contrary, from conversations, that we had to exert our influence in the Presevo Valley and Macedonia to calm the situation and get rid of the violence there.

Q. Do you know that Aradinai is accused of having committed the murders of a number of Albanians and Serbs?

A. No. And I don't think that there could ever be any possible evidence for such accusations. I haven't heard of any anyway.

Q. Is it true that Aradinai was wounded when he threw bombs at a house, the house of a Sadik Musai, a fellow Albanian from the party?

A. The information you're bringing here you've got -- you were very ⁵⁷¹ badly informed. I would ask you to be more careful with the information you present.

JUDGE MAY: Don't spend any more time. Now, Mr. Milosevic, I think we're getting some way from the detail of this witness's evidence. We've had the questions which you've put in relation to his credibility. So if you can move to another topic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You spoke of the killing of Jashari yesterday in Donja Prekaz. Do you know that the police surrounded the house to arrest them and that they did not want to surrender themselves to the police and that they shot at the policeman?

A. That's your -- what you're saying. I don't know any details.

Q. You said yesterday that the police gave them two hours to surrender. So you know the details. Did you say yesterday that the police gave them a two-hour time span to surrender when they surrounded them?

JUDGE MAY: No. What he said was -- just a moment. Just a moment. What he said was that you, Mr. Milosevic, said that to him. That was his evidence yesterday, that you said it to him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I told him that they had two hours to surrender.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that Jashari -- let me say before that, do you know that for those two hours -- during those two hours it was the women and ⁵⁷² children that came out of the house mostly?

A. I don't know, but I know that women and children were murdered in the house and around the house.

Q. The ones that came out of the house certainly weren't killed, but do you know that Jashari killed even his own uncle at the time because his uncle wanted to go out and surrender? I don't know whether it was his mother's or his father's brother, but an uncle any way. The uncle wanted to go out and surrender, but Jashari shot him. This is contained in the court reports pertaining to the investigation of the event that took place.

A. I don't know, and I don't believe it.

Q. Do you consider that a two-hour time period is insufficient for terrorists to decide whether they're going to give themselves up or not and that once those two hours had expired they once again opened fire at the policemen and that those who thought -- who wanted to leave the house left? Do you consider that any other police force anywhere in the world would have fled when somebody was shooting at it from a barricaded house behind whose walls there were killers? Is that you're opinion?

A. I have nothing to do with police operations, so I can't answer your question. But what I know is that you killed civilians, children. Twelve -- twelve thousand civilians, including old people, women, children, pregnant women, saying all the time that you were fighting terrorism. That I know.

And in the case of the Jasharis, after them you killed -- around them you killed women and children. ⁵⁷³

Q. Do you know about the experience the police force had in that same place, Donji Prekaz, on the 13th of May, 1981, when in following barricaded criminals four policemen lost their lives, and the fifth policeman died later on, succumbing to his serious wounds? Because ethnicity is essential. There were three Serbs and one Muslim and one Albanian. They were policemen who were killed in the conflict with those criminals. I assume that you think that five policemen should have been killed once again by Jashari whom, as you know, killed Serbs and Albanians in order to loot them and pilfer them. He killed them for money. He wasn't very -- he didn't mind killing an Albanian or slitting his throat if an Albanian happened to have some money on him.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues] ... question.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Could the speaker switch on his microphone, please? Microphone, please.

A. No.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question. The microphone was off.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, I think we've dealt fully with this, and you've given your evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. [No translation]

JUDGE MAY: We're not getting any interpretation.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said yesterday that people were put into prison for political ⁵⁷⁴ reasons in my day, but nobody could have been imprisoned --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- for political reasons. Let me repeat the question. You said that yesterday in my day there were people who were put in prison, arrested, for political reasons, and I say that nobody was allowed to be imprisoned for political reasons and arrested.

If what you said is true, if what you said is true, that in prison there was an Albanian, for political reasons, an Albanian had been put in prison for political reasons, did you do anything about it, and did you raise the issue in any of the Western embassies where you said you went to attend receptions? Did you raise that question and issue with Amnesty International, perhaps, or Helsinki Watch or the Yugoslav authorities? How come you did nothing about it? You did not raise this issue because you know that if you had to it would have at least become public knowledge that there was a man, some poor sufferer, who had been arrested by the authorities. Did you raise those issues at all?

A. I raised them in -- to the organs of civil rights in Serbia and all the states in Europe and America, the organs of the United Nations too. Everywhere we said, we told them that you are imprisoning people for political reasons. And as a total, you were keeping 2.000 Albanians in prisons for -- imprisoned for political reasons. You know how they were taken, how they were imprisoned.

In Djakove, for instance, they just took people out of their ⁵⁷⁵ houses, in the streets, and sole -- and sent them off to prison in Serbia. There was even -- there was some sort of formal sentence that was passed on them without a normal legal procedure being carried out, and they were sentenced to Draconic sentences and were taken off to prison. I know that I'd like to make another accusation here.

Q. And what were the sentences? How long were the sentences?

JUDGE MAY: Let us wait for the next question. Yes. The next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Apart from that propaganda about the so-called arrest of people, did you ever state the names of the people who had been arrested allegedly? Yes or no? Who did you give the names to of those arrested people, people who were arrested for political reasons?

A. Please, Honoured Court, you should be aware that there are many humanitarian societies, even in Serbia, who know the names better than I do. Pressure was exerted against them from the state. They themselves wanted the prisoners to be liberated, the Albanian prisoners who were in Serb prisons. I'm not talking about normal prisoners, normal convicts. I'm talking about political prisoners under the reign of Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: You were asked who you gave the names -- you were asked who you gave the names to.

A. There are two or three Serb councils there -- which are maintaining a very positive attitude. Mrs. Biznarko knows. Another distinguished lady - I don't remember the name now - knows about them. Then all -- all the international institutions engaged in human rights ⁵⁷⁶ protection know them, as well as the Kosova Council for the Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms. They all know the exact names, and they have sent these names to the relevant bodies, whereas the prosecutors, many prosecutors, always go to the Minister of Justice of Serbia and present him the names. So the Serbian authorities know. They know whom am I talking about, who the political prisoners are.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm asking you for the names of the victims, the alleged victims that you are speaking about and not the name of the lady, as you say, that you contacted. Do you have the names of those victims?

A. We have the names of the political prisoners as well as the victims. For the moment, I don't have them with me. I might tell that -- I might tell you only that I remember -- I told you the name of Ukshin Hoti, the way he was taken out of prison and disappeared without leaving any trace. Then I -- many other names I may give you at any other moment as pieces of the evidence or through witnesses to The Hague Tribunal.

Q. Therefore, to clarify things, you say that there were political prisoners who were condemned for political reasons, for verbal offences. Do you know that we have abolished verbal offence as such from the Criminal Code?

THE INTERPRETER: The witness said, "Yes," earlier.

A. Yes, but they changed it later. For example, the accusations made against a large number of youths who are sent to prison was that you have invited NATO to come here and that you are the rear front of KLA. They didn't have any arms, any uniforms on them. They were taken to prison ⁵⁷⁷ right from the street or from the homes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You're talking about the KLA terrorists who were arrested? Is that who you're talking about?

A. No, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about ordinary citizens who were taken away from their homes in Djakove, for example. They did not have anything to do with KLA. But you accused them in order to fill the Serbian prisons with them. And I think that those 2.000 people who are detained in prison, in Serb prison, were not only -- were not political prisoners.

Q. Let's leave to one side the time of war. I'm talking about the time prior to the war and throughout the last 12 years. Were there any political prisoners in the prisons themselves before the terrorists?

A. Yes.

Q. There were? Is that what you're saying? Do you know who they were?

A. Ukshin Hoti is one example. He was tried eight years ago.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, it's now half past ten, and we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes.

How much longer do you think you're going to be with this witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It depends on his answers. I have questions and subquestions, Mr. May. I will probably need about one or two hours. Who knows? It all -- my questions have to do with what the witness said yesterday. So many lies. That many lies demands a lot of ⁵⁷⁸ questions, and that is why the Court is here.

JUDGE MAY: We're not -- we're not going to listen to any comments now, but we should aim, if possible, to finish this witness today. Has the amicus got any questions?

MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said yesterday that Albanians were dismissed from work en masse, although you know full well that there was a directive issued by Albanian separatist parties to boycott going to work. Do you know this word, "boycott," and the concept that I just described? Is it familiar to you?

A. As far as I know, the independent labour union of Kosova did indeed use the word "boycott" in order so that the workers of Kosova would not sign the declaration of loyalty towards the Serb state.

Q. That's another issue. But since you've just opened it up, I have to digress myself. What declaration on loyalty to the Serbian state are you talking about? Was there a declaration on loyalty to the Serbian state; yes or no?

A. Yes, there was a declaration of loyalty towards the Serb state in Kosova.

Q. Who wrote this declaration? ⁵⁷⁹

A. The responsible organs of the Serb state in Kosova.

Q. Since this is the first time that I've heard about some declaration of loyalty, could you please give us the text of this declaration? Could you provide it for us, this declaration of loyalty to the Serbian state that allegedly Albanians were required to sign?

A. Yes. I can bring it to Court as soon as I return to Pristina and get it.

Q. Are you aware that nobody in Serbia knows or has heard of this declaration, starting from me?

A. No, I did not know that.

Q. But as I understand it, you are familiar with the word "boycott" when referring to work obligations proclaimed by the so-called Independent Trade Union of Kosovo?

A. Yes, because the trade unions were under pressure from the membership as to what to do if people would be asked -- forced to sign such a declaration.

Q. So you claim that they were required to sign a declaration in order to be able to work?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you provide us with one of those signed statements or declarations?

A. Yes. I'm sorry, I don't have it with me at the moment.

Q. Do you make a distinction between a person who is dismissed and a person who boycotts going to work?

A. In this specific case, there is no distinction, because Albanian ⁵⁸⁰ workers were collectively put in an intolerable position, collectively and personally, each one, to be forced upon their knees. They were forced on their knees, and for this reason, it's the same as being thrown out of your job.

Q. And through what means were they thrown to their knees?

A. By the fact that they were being forced to show loyalty to the Serb state.

Q. Since that is not true, can you perhaps tell us what document issued by the government of Serbia asked for this declaration of loyalty by Albanian residents?

A. I'm sorry, I don't have one of these forms with me, but, Honourable Judges, I am sure I can send it from Pristina.

Q. All right. Since we're talking about this now, since we are mentioning the power structure in Serbia, which body was responsible for issuing this declaration? Was it the government? Was it the parliament? Was it me, as the president of the Republic? Was it some ministry? So which body within the power structure, according to you, issued this phantom-like declaration that had to be signed?

A. I cannot answer the question concretely.

Q. Is it possible that something that is being carried out en masse, and publicly, can in fact be issued in secret and then distributed; yes or no?

A. I have no comment to your question.

Q. I'm asking you, yes or no. You are not giving an interview to the newspapers here. You are under oath. ⁵⁸¹

A. I realise that I am before Court. I'm telling you, the accused, that I do not wish to reply.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Bakalli --

THE WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You have seen this document?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And you know who issued it, where it came from?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document came from the directorates of the authorities which were imposed by Belgrade upon the companies in question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... the document itself?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Does that mean --

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues] ... question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was distributed and was imposed by the authorities forced upon Kosova companies from Serbia, by Serbia.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So this story about the declaration is becoming a bit more clear to me. So as I understand it, you are claiming that the administrative bodies, or administrative organs of the Kosova enterprises were appointed by the authorities in Belgrade and that these organs of enterprises asked their employees to sign some declarations. ^{582 BLANK PAGE 593}

A. Yes.

Q. And based on that, you conclude that this task was assigned to them by the government of Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is something that you saw happen?

A. Yes.

Q. And an enterprise. Which enterprise?

A. In Trepca, the thermoelectric centre in Obilic. Those two cases I know of.

Q. So in two enterprises you know that somebody asked Albanian employees to give this loyalty declaration?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was this supposed to mean, this loyalty declaration? They were citizens of Serbia. What loyalty are we talking about here?

A. The meaning was that Albanians in Kosova, they did not feel that they were citizens of Serbia, and they declared in a referendum that they were for the Republic of Kosova.

Q. And what is stated in that declaration that they had to sign in the Trepca and Obilic enterprises?

A. A free interpretation would be: I am loyal to the Serb state, to the Serb government, and to the leadership of Serbia and the leadership of the enterprise.

Q. Do you mean the leadership of the enterprise or the leadership of Serbia?

A. Leadership of the enterprise. ⁵⁹⁴

Q. Does that mean that the employees were supposed to give a confidence vote to the leadership of their enterprises?

A. No. They had to give their loyalty -- or to vote on their loyalty about the Constitution, the constitutional change in Serbia, under which the autonomy of Kosova was annulled.

Q. You are saying that the constitutional changes, in fact, abolished the autonomy of Kosova; is that what you're saying? We will get to that question later on.

A. Yes. It could be called autonomy today, yesterday, or under your reign, but the contents of the autonomy, that's what you destroyed.

Q. So to my question concerning whether you made a distinction between a person who was dismissed and a person who boycotts going to work implied that there was no difference between them. Did I understand you well?

A. In this case.

Q. Yes. And you explained that you supported that with a political view, political position of those who wanted an independent Kosovo.

A. Yes.

Q. Is the political position concerning the status of some territory from the constitutional, legal point of view have anything to do with the right to employment and work that somebody has at any enterprise? Yes or no?

A. Yes, it has a connection.

Q. That means that those who want Kosovo to be a republic can boycott going to work to Trepca and Obilic for legitimate reasons? Yes or no? ⁵⁹⁵

A. Yes, because the enterprises were -- had been transformed into state enterprises of Serbia, and their leadership were appointed from Serbia.

Q. The power company was -- in Serbia was always a state-owned company.

A. The electric company was always a big Serb company as a state organisation and -- but had no connection with other similar enterprises in Kosova such as ElektroKosova. ElektroKosova was never under -- subjected to the Serb electric company. It was only when Milosevic arrived and the changes, the constitutional changes, took place.

Q. Since you know yourself that that is not true because the electrical power system is something that is of a comprehensive nature and has to be linked between its various components, so the electrical power of Kosovo could be as independent as the one in Vojvodina and other areas, and you know that the electric power system is one unit.

A. Yes, from a technical point of view and from technical questions, of course. But they were completely -- the two enterprises were completely independent of one another. They had no links.

Q. Let's leave your opinion aside. You've just explained to us that the workers in Kosovo had every reason to boycott going to work because of political reasons, because they wanted Kosovo to be an independent republic. Yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Which means that they boycotted going to work for political reasons, not because they were dismissed. This is the very reason I asked ⁵⁹⁶ you whether you made a distinction between somebody who boycotted going to work and somebody who was dismissed. There is no country in this world where somebody can refuse going to work for political reasons and then claim to have been dismissed. Nowhere in the world can you see an example of this. You said so, I think. Everything is clear now. We can go on.

A. It is clear.

Q. You said that Albanians did not attend the celebrations in Gazimestan, the celebrations of the battle.

A. They did not.

Q. Are you sure that out of 2 million people in Gazimestan there was not a single Albanian?

A. I can be -- if I'm sure that there was any Albanian there, there might be one, but I know that the Albanians did boycott your speech in Gazimestan.

Q. Are you aware that the entire Presidency of Yugoslavia, including representatives of all Yugoslav republics, were present at Gazimestan? Yes or no?

A. No. Exactly the opposite. None of the members of the leadership -- some of the members of the leadership, under your insistence, were there. The Slovenes arrived but not the others. There were not even diplomatic representatives there, then no Albanians. You tried to raise a mass atmosphere there for your own political purposes.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, do you know that there is film footage and TV footage showing that, without exception, representatives of all republics attended ⁵⁹⁷ the event at Gazimestan, including the Presidency of Yugoslavia? And with the exception of one or two members of the Diplomatic Corps, all members were present. Do you know this?

A. I don't know that, and I don't believe it. Well, there may have been, but not the way you say it was.

Q. So you are saying that this is not how it was. Excellent.

A. Yes.

Q. Based on what do you believe that none of the Albanians should have attended the celebrations in Gazimestan?

A. I didn't say they ought not to attend. I said that they did not attend, the Albanians, because they felt themselves -- I understood the motives of Milosevic and why he held that big celebration. They were only nationalists. There were nationalist reasons. There were 2 million Serbs from all southern Serbia who arrived in Kosova. They knew what type of speeches would be held there, and when the -- the speeches were heard, they realised it was true.

JUDGE MAY: We will get on more quickly if you keep your answers fairly short, please.

Mr. Milosevic, we have, I think, exhausted this topic now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said that based on the 1974 Constitution everything was fine. This Constitution was amended in 1989; is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And you do know, don't you, how many demonstrations there were prior to 1989? So between 1974 until 1989 when, according to you, ⁵⁹⁸ everything was perfect, do you know how many destructive demonstrations with the same requirement for a Kosovo republic were there? Do you know about these demonstrations?

A. Yes, I know about the demonstrations, but didn't say that the Constitution of 1974 was the best possible solution. The Constitution of 1974 was a compromise between the will of the Albanian people, which didn't want any -- to have anything in common with the Serb government and with Serb rule and wanted to be an independent republic and the situation, the balance of forces at the time in Yugoslavia in which -- under which it -- full autonomy had been given to them within the federation within -- but within the framework of Serbia. There were, even after the Constitution was approved and later, and in 1981 and after 1981, there were many, because the objective of the Albanians was to have that Kosova be a republic, not like -- like Croatia, like Slovenia.

Q. These demonstrations in 1981, were they justified?

A. The demonstrations of 1981, in fact, expressed precisely this objective of the Albanian people who wanted to bring about such changes to ensure that Kosova became a republic. Since I was chairman of the regional committee, I say then and I say now that they were not reasonable. I did not solidarise with them. I did not solidarise, however, with the assessments made by Serbia and by Yugoslavia, namely that these demonstrations are a counter-revolution. In the communist vocabulary, it means use of violence, unlimited violence against the people. That is why I had a conflict with the party that I belonged up to that moment. ⁵⁹⁹

Q. With the constitutional changes in 1989, were the Albanians -- were any human rights or civil rights or minority rights abolished with those changes of the Constitution?

A. Yes.

Q. And we knew -- you know what I mean by human rights, civilian rights, minority rights. With the 1989 constitutional changes, were the Albanians stripped of any of these rights, human rights, civil rights, and minority rights?

A. Following the changes you made to the Constitution in 1989, some individual rights, civic rights, and national rights of Albanians have been impaired.

Q. Which rights were abolished? It is easy to say. You have the 1974 Constitution, and you have the amendments in 1989. Now, tell us, please, which were the human, civil, and national rights that the Albanians were stripped of that had existed in the 1974 -- under the 1974 Constitution? What did the changes, the amendments abolish? Tell us, please. Enumerate just one of them, just one.

A. The right to organise themselves, to have their own self-governance.

THE INTERPRETER: "Self [inaudible]", says the witness.

A. And to promote, culture, science, all the functions which they had before under the autonomy granted by the Constitution of 1974. All had been taken away.

Isn't it a violation of the collective civil and human rights?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁶⁰⁰

Q. Mr. Bakalli, I am asking you whether the constitutional changes took away any of the rights of the Albanians, civil rights, civic rights, human rights?

A. I say substantially yes.

Q. You will have to compare the 1974 Constitution and the 1989 amendments and tell us: Which right was abolished by which constitutional amendment? Are you able to do that?

A. I'm trying to do that now orally. You have taken away the elementary right of self-governance, which we used to do in an autonomous way. You took away our right to have our own police. You took away our right to make our own political forecasts. You took away our right to have our own education and prepare our own curricula. But excuse me, I can later, if Your Honours are interested, I can bring you further details explaining to you where our elementary rights have been violated as citizens and as a nation, these constitutional amendments that were dictated to us by Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: I have no doubt that in due course, these documents will be put in front of us and we will be able to make our own minds up about them.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Bakalli, do the Albanians have their own national state? Yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. What is the name of that state? ⁶⁰¹

A. Republic of Albania.

Q. Republic of Albania, you say. Is Kosovo part of Albania?

A. No, it is not. Kosovo is not part of the -- sorry. Yugoslav. You said Serb. Sorry. It's not part of the Albanian state.

Q. Is Kosovo an autonomous province within Serbia?

A. It used to be, and that was a compromise solution reached at given moments of our history, but --

Q. What moment of history are you talking about?

A. I'm talking about the Constitution after the Second World War, and we have always had the status of autonomy in the context of Serbia. That's a fact. But the objective, the aspiration of the Albanian people, as of 1912, has always been that this was the wrong solution for them, to have Kosova under the Serb state, and this has been always the case with the Albanian people, thinking that Kosova does not like to be under the rule of Serbia. Therefore, the Albanian people of Kosova have declared their will to set up their own independent Republic of Kosova, outside the jurisdiction and rule of Serbia.

Q. Is Kosovo and Metohija -- were they an autonomous province, both according to the constitutional changes of 1989?

A. Formally, yes. By name, yes, but not in the content, in essence, because nothing was decided by the Kosova institutions.

Q. Do you give those explanations from the aspects of an independent Kosovo?

A. I didn't understand the question. Please repeat it.

Q. Are you giving us those explanations from the standpoint of an ⁶⁰² independent Kosovo?

A. I am giving this assessment in terms of the autonomy Kosova enjoyed before you came to power and before you amended the constitutional position of Kosova. With respect to the people of Kosova, they are not in favour of your Constitution and not in favour of our Constitution of 1974. That is, they are determined to have their own Republic of Kosova, where all citizens are equal - Turks, Bosnians, Romas - to have interethnic tolerance, which at this moment does not exist, but we are going to build it, establish good relations, neighbourly relations with Serbia and its people, as well as Montenegro, Macedonia, and Albania. This is our objective, to have independent Kosova.

Q. So you are now striving, in fact, for an independent Kosovo. Do you know that the conditions under which the war was stopped, and in the name of Chernomyrdin and Ahtisaari brought in, are such that they guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, and that it is on the basis of conditions accepted in this way that the 1244 resolution of the United Nations Security Council was brought in, in which all this was reiterated, repeated, guaranteeing the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that this enabled and guaranteed the protection of all the citizens of Kosovo, the population of Kosovo, and a political solution to the issue? By what you are now saying, are you yourself, therefore, against showing respect for the conditions under which the war was stopped and are against respect of the United Nations Resolution 1244, UN Security Council Resolution 1244, which sets this out and establishes that? ⁶⁰³

A. No. I said that what the objective and aspiration of the Albanian people of Kosovo is, but we all respect and abide by Resolution 1244, endorsed by the Security Council, and we think that there is still a long way to go before we will need the international administration of Kosova for quite some time, before we start the process of starting to build our democratic, political, and state institutions in Kosova, and then, from that, we can start negotiations on determining the final status of Kosova. But even when that time comes, I want to tell you what the orientation, the inclination, and determination of the Albanian people of Kosova is. This does not run counter in any way to Resolution 1244. We have never sought to make changes of the existing borders; that is, we do not want to impair in any way the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia. We want to respect it. Regarding the sovereignty of Yugoslavia and Serbia in Kosova, it is not existent for three years now, and the new reality is such that they do not have any sovereignty there.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, I think we're now moving some way from the subject matter of this trial.

Mr. Milosevic, can we go on to another topic now?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we can, but I just have to indicate the fact that this rhetoric on the alleged respect of the conditions under which the war was stopped and Resolution 1244 is in complete contradiction with the answer given previously, when asked whether he strove for an independent Kosovo. But I will move on.

Q. You said that the people of Kosovo, at a referendum, decided for a Kosovo republic, that they opted for that. What about the Serb people in ⁶⁰⁴ Kosovo? Did they opt for a Kosovo republic as well?

A. No, or not yet. I hope that tomorrow, sometime in the future, the Serb people of Kosova, as citizens of Kosova, will share their fate with the bulk of the Kosovars who are Albanians and will reconcile to the fact that they are no longer citizens of Serbia but are citizens of Kosova, who have full rights and are guaranteed -- their life is guaranteed in the Republic of Kosova.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, I understand your need to use all this rhetoric and to utter all these things, in view of your newly established political positions, but I should like you to answer my questions with a yes or no, because they have all been put in such a way that a yes-or-no answer is possible. So what I have just asked you is whether the Serb people in Kosovo opted for a Kosovo republic.

A. Not yet, I said.

Q. Not yet, you say. What about the Turks? Did they come out in favour of a Kosovo republic, the Turks in Kosovo? Or to make it shorter, without asking you one by one, the Goranis, the Muslims, did they too opt for Kosovo republic? And whether your uni-national referendum for a Kosovo republic, a territory which is part of Serbia and where seven ethnic groups live, do you identify the Albanians with the Albanian nation, with the Albanian people, and part of the territory of a sovereign state with the status of a right to secession, whereas a moment ago you said that the Albanians have a national state of their own and that the name of that national state is the Republic of Albania? Do you therefore consider that the Albanians should have two states and the Serbs not have ⁶⁰⁵ a single state?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic, we're getting away from the original question. The original question -- just, Mr. Bakalli, listen. The original question was: Did the Turks - and one or two other nationalities were referred to - did they support the referendum or not? Did they favour a Kosovo republic or not? Perhaps you can answer that shortly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the will and the election programmes of the political parties of Bosnians, Romas, Turks, they are all -- they have stated they are all for declaring Kosovo an independent republic. The Serbs, no.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not yet.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. That is the answer. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know of a single state, a single country, in which a national minority proclaimed its own state while killing and evicting all the other inhabitants and citizens? Do you know of a single example in the world? Can you quote a single example? Let me repeat --

A. I'm clear. I can't cite here world examples, but please, don't forget that when we are talking about Kosova, we are talking about 90 per cent of its population being Albanian, and their rights can be granted only if they have their independence from Serbia. But by establishing the Republic of Kosova, we are not saying that they are establishing the ⁶⁰⁶ Albanian Republic of Kosova. We will establish the Republic of Kosova, composed of all the nationalities, all the ethnic groups, who have equal rights. It would be absurd to say that there are two national states. The Republic of Albania is an Albanian state, Kosova is state of Kosovars, where 90 per cent are Albanians.

JUDGE MAY: Next question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I asked for an answer to my question, and I didn't ask for a speech about Albanian separatism. What I asked was very specific. I asked: Do you know of a single country in which the national minority proclaimed its state and killed and evicted all the other citizens with the state proper agreeing to that and allowing that to happen? Do you know of any such example or not?

A. Albanians are not a national minority in Kosovo.

JUDGE MAY: We've taken this as far as we can. Mr. Milosevic, move on, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In view of the fact that a moment ago you stated that you did not agree -- you expressed your disagreement from earlier days and you failed to answer my question of why demonstrations existed from 1974 until 1989 when everything was fine, I would like to remind you of certain events, and I should like to ask you to answer some of my questions in that regard.

Why were there demonstrations in 1981, for example, when the Constitution was changed 18 years later in 1989 or, rather, eight years ⁶⁰⁷ later in 1989? Why were demonstrations held then in 1981?

A. I think I answered this question, but I will, however, say that these demonstrations wanted the acceleration of the process for the building of Kosova outside any state links with Serbia, that is, for the republic of Kosova.

Q. Very well. You say that those demonstrations called for a development -- do you remember that you yourself were President of the Committee of National Defence and Social Self-protection at the time the demonstrations were being held in Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that you personally, Mahmut Bakalli, in your capacity as President of the Committee for Total and National Defence, or All People's Defence, on the 2nd of April, at a meeting asked for the Yugoslav People's Army to bring tanks out onto the streets?

THE INTERPRETER:

A. [Indiscernible], says the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There are transcripts and reports about that, Mr. Bakalli.

A. This is not at all true. When the state Yugoslav leadership -- I don't remember the date.

Q. Very well. Your answer is no, then, is it?

A. No. Then I said this is not right to use the army.

JUDGE MAY: Both of you, one moment. Now, you may make a short explanation, Mr. Bakalli.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have always thought that we should ⁶⁰⁸ not dramatise demonstrations of 1981, should not involve in them the army. The Yugoslav leadership, the state, not the party, the state leadership - they were eight persons - they have decided without my presence - I was in Pristina then - to mobilise the army, the Yugoslav army in Kosova. I expressed my displeasure at that, and I felt really bad when I saw a commander, military commander, telling me that he had orders to bring the army troops in the streets, which I considered an erroneous act.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. You've given -- you have given the explanation. You have given the explanation. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is not contestable that the army is led by the federal peaks of power. Therefore, it is not contested that the Presidency ordered that tanks go out onto the streets. But it is being contested -- what I asked you is being contested, that they ordered that at your request, at your demand. You called upon the JNA to bring out the tanks on that 2nd of April. Yes or no?

A. No.

Q. The next question. On that same day at 1700 hours, you called for the aeroplanes to be taken out as well. Yes or no?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember that on the 17th of April, 1981, that is to say several days later when the situation had calmed down, you held a press conference with foreign journalists? ⁶⁰⁹

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember, furthermore, that you told the foreign journalists, and I quote you, Mr. Bakalli, from the newspapers, you said the following: "The demonstrations, for us, were not a surprise, but the brutality of the enemy was." Do you remember having said that?

A. Yes, I have said -- I may have said even worse things.

Q. What did you say?

A. It is possible. I may have used even harsher terms. I was not in solidarity with those demonstrations, but I was not also for them being called anti-revolutionary, counter-revolutionary.

Q. Do you remember having said on the occasion, and I'm going to quote you literally again, I'm not going to recount but to quote: "The Albanian nationalists are the aiders and abettors of the occupiers against the true interests of the Albanian people"?

A. I have nothing against that. I agree with you there.

Q. But did you say that on that occasion?

A. I said that and I say now that I have my reservations against Albanian nationalism. It is possible that I said that.

Q. So you confirm that you did.

A. Yes.

Q. Asked by a foreign journalist that you were not too hardcore toward the demonstrators, that you said, and I quote you again: "We're not dealing with our hardcore qualities. Their requests are not only political but are of a hostile nature in comparison with our Constitution." Correct? ⁶¹⁰

A. You have collected all my statements in the press. I personally have forgotten those times. But it is possible, Mr. Milosevic. I was then and I am now, I think, of the opinion that the demonstrations of 1981 were not necessary. But they wanted, as I said, to have a republic for Kosova. But Constitutions cannot be amended through demonstrations staged in the streets. I think that they should be changed in the manner through normal democratic procedures which should be provided by the Constitution too.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, will you please give me a yes or no answer? I quoted your statement. Was it yours or not?

Say -- I didn't collect any information, because I didn't know that you would be a witness. I do not receive any mail. I read in the newspapers that you would be a witness, and I read your denial where you say you wouldn't be a witness. So until yesterday, I didn't know whether you were actually going to be a witness or not, and I'm just taking into account what you said yesterday.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what's the question? Mr. Bakalli, I think you were being asked about your statements in 1981, and your answer appears to be that you don't remember, but it's possible that you did say those things. Is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it is possible that I said that. But this does have nothing to do with the process of Milosevic, the trial of Milosevic. I don't see the relation.

JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll be the judges of that. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, next question. ⁶¹¹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree that this has nothing to do with my trial nor is this a trial, but let me continue.

Q. Was your assessment, and I quote again at the time: "Albanian nationalism and irredentism was the basic form of enemy hostile demonstrations. The ultimate goal was clear and that was an attachment of Kosovo to Albania"? End of quotation.

I agree with you once again that it was true that that was the goal, but was that your position at the time? Yes or no?

A. No. I doubt that I said anywhere about Kosova's annexation to Albania.

Q. Yes. You've answered my question. I don't expect anything from you, just to say yes or no to my questions.

You said yesterday that according to the 1974 Constitution, Kosovo had the same rights as the other republics. Those were your words which I jotted down. Now, was Kosovo a republic according to that Constitution?

A. Yes. In the normative part of the Constitution, it was identical to all the other republics, including the Republic of Serbia.

Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Bakalli, in view of the fact that you've said that Kosovo, by virtue of the 1974 Constitution, had the same rights as the other republics, so it is on that quotation of yours that I base my question. Was Kosovo a republic according to the 1974 Constitution? Yes or no?

A. No, it was not a republic, but it enjoyed more a substantive autonomy.

Q. Thank you. And you claim that a -- the Autonomous Province of ⁶¹² Kosovo was abolished in 1989 and that since 1989, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija does not exist, no longer exists?

A. Not according to the Constitution of 1974, perhaps with some formal name.

Q. Thank you very much. Who exerted pressure for the exodus of the population, the Serbs or the Albanian extremists from 1981 onwards? Do you know that under pressure, up until 1988, another 40.000 Serbs left Kosovo, moved out of the Kosovo? Yes or no?

A. I have heard about this figure also in another occasion. Allow me, since this is a sensitive issue, to say that of 40.000 Serbs were given out of Kosova during 1981 -- left Kosova during 1981, 1989, you should know that they were not forced to leave out of the pressure of the Albanians, because in fact the power was being taken over gradually by the Serbs and the Serbian army forces.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Bakalli, what was the total number of the Serb population in Kosovo at that time?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, let's say 8 per cent. About 8 per cent. About 150.000 to 200.000. But it is interesting to note while they have left Kosova when Serbia started to rule Kosova --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind. Never mind that. I just wanted to get the total number of the Serb population at that time, and you said it was between a 150.000 to 200.000.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about 200.000.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, continue.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That figure is incorrect but there ⁶¹³ will be plenty of time to provide the right figures.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said yesterday that you wrote articles from 1981 and that you have gone on doing so to the present day.

A. Not since 1981, no.

Q. All this time, then -- and you were critical in those articles you wrote. You were critical towards the political leadership, you say. You were critical towards me and so on and so forth. That's what you said. Now I'm asking you whether you had any repercussions or unpleasantness due to this.

A. Personally, no, but my friends, yes.

JUDGE MAY: You were asked about yourself.

A. No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In my day, the times you're talking about, and you refer to them as "in my day," were you in any kind -- ever under any kind of house arrest? Because you mentioned --

A. Previously.

Q. I see. Previously. So you weren't, were you?

A. No. No.

Q. You said yesterday, in the midst of giving some explanations, and then you happened to remember just a little while later that allegedly in a talk with me you told me, when the two of us had a meeting, that the police was committing crimes and that I should take care, that the balance of forces would not always be what it was then. And is it true that you ⁶¹⁴ threatened me on that occasion and that you used the term "crimes"? Yes or no?

A. And I also used the phrase that there is a clergy man above every clergy man.

Q. Yes. I heard you say that. Now, as you were speaking about apartheid, why didn't you mention apartheid to me at all when you met with me ten years ago and when you wrote about it, as you say, ten years ago?

JUDGE MAY: You have asked all that, and he has answered. He said -- he said earlier, in answer to a question, that he should have done.

There's no need to answer, Mr. Bakalli.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Were you in active service while I was President of Serbia and Yugoslavia? Were you in any kind of active service? What do you mean "active service"?

A. No. I didn't have any active service after 1981.

Q. Within the frameworks of rights and the law and all standards above all European and world standards, was there an Albanian Academy of Sciences until the boycott began? Is that true? Was there an academy of sciences of Kosovo? Did it exist? An Albanian one, of course. Yes or no, please.

A. The academy of science of Kosovo has existed and it exists, but it is not called the Albanian Academy of Sciences.

Q. Yes. It's called -- it was called the Kosovo one. ⁶¹⁵ Now, do you know the example -- can you quote the example of any other country in the world where national minorities had the same rights that the Albanians had? Can you quote another example in the world, of any country in the world where this existed?

A. I don't know about what kind of Yugoslavia you are talking about. If you are talking about your own Yugoslavia, I think that the example is quite obvious for everyone, that there couldn't be any worse position than that of the Albanians anywhere else in the world, I think. You should not forget that you have committed not only crimes against Albanians, but you wanted to evict them. How can you ask me now if there is any other country --

JUDGE MAY: You're being asked about the academy, yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know the violence exerted by Albanian extremists over Serbs during the time that you were in power in Kosovo?

A. Violence in Kosova, even when I was in power, existed, of course, but there was no pressure against the Serbs. If there has been some conflicts between Albanians and Serbs, under our severe laws, we have condemned them. I just want to remind you of the case of murder of an Albanian -- a case of a Serb, committed by an Albanian from Pec/Peja. He was sentenced to death and he was executed.

So I mean to say that both politically and juridically, we have been very severe against any kind of pressure or any interethnic conflict. You should not forget that we used to follow a positive policy ⁶¹⁶ towards the Serbs of Kosova. They have had their jobs, they have been always in a higher position than the local inhabitants. Some of the Serbs have left Kosova for socioeconomic reasons. In my time, for example, 375.000 Albanians left Kosovo and went to Western Europe, to America, New Zealand, Australia, because --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, that is enough in answer to the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Therefore, as I see your reply to my question whether you knew about the violence of Albanian extremists against Serbs during the time you held power in Kosovo, the answer was yes.

A. No. There was no violence, at least not in the sense that you are trying to imply.

Q. Do you know that after 1980 --

A. After 1981 -- in the army, for instance, someone had killed a Serb in the army, and our judges, according to the laws, in accordance with the laws, sentenced him to execution, to death, and he was executed, according to law. I can't swear that the Albanians are angels and they don't know how to commit crimes. I'm not saying that. But in the essence, the Albanians were the subjects, and our organs were mobilised so that there would be no conflict between the Serbs and other nationalities.

Q. Among Serbs and other nationalities, there were no conflicts at all, Mr. Bakalli.

A. The translation was incorrect. I meant between Albanians and Serbs. ⁶¹⁷

Q. Mr. Bakalli, since you're mentioning Serbs and other nationalities, you should probably know that there are 27 ethnic groups living in Serbia. The legal, social, and civic status of the Albanian ethnic group, as far as the state is concerned, the legal system, and everything else that constitutes the status of an ethnic group -- therefore, is the status of Albanians in any way different from the status of Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, and so on? I don't want to enumerate all of the ethnic groups. Is there anything that creates a distinction as far as the legal and constitutional framework, as far as the human and civic framework is concerned, within the whole system? Is there any difference in the status of these ethnic groups; yes or no?

A. For instance -- yes. Serb nationalism, for the Serb nationalists, the Albanians were simply in the way. There are 2 million Albanians at the moment. You can't compare that to an occupation of, say, 20.000 Bulgarians, 30.000 Romanians, and others. There are 2 million Albanians living on their own land.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, do you know that 70.000 Albanians live in Belgrade? Do you know of any case of discrimination against an Albanian? Furthermore, along the Boulevard of Revolution, which you walked many times probably, one can see numerous shops with the names of their Albanian owners. Was a window of any shop ever broken? Do you know of any case of violence against the 70.000 Albanians living in Belgrade; yes or no?

A. Yes, there were cases, both in Belgrade and in Serbia. The attitude with respect to Albanians living there is something that you ⁶¹⁸ simply do not wish to remember.

Q. Yes. I'd like to see some examples of that. Are you aware of murders and rapes and destruction of homes and arson of homes, fields, and so on? So all of these means were used by Albanian nationalists to expel Serbs, and under their pressure, that I've mentioned, 40.000 Serbs had to leave Kosovo. Do you know anything of this?

A. I think that that's exaggerated for Serb propaganda, and I don't accept it.

Q. So dead people constitute Serb propaganda as well?

A. For the dead --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, there is no need to answer. We'll hear further evidence in due course.

Anything else, Mr. Milosevic?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, how many newspapers in Albanian were published in the province up until the war, the 24th of March, 1999?

A. It depends on the period. Sometimes Rilindja was issued, and then it was forbidden by the Serb government. And then Bujku was issued, and then the Serb authorities had illegalised Bujku. And then another newspaper which was issued and then banned. And then Koha Ditore, which was subject to various types of pressure. And then Zeri was issued, and then Zeri Javore, Zeri Ditore. So what I mean is the medias did exist in Kosova. At this moment, there are a lot of media, but under Milosevic at the time, they were born and then they were killed. They were born and then banned, born and banned. Various types of pressures. That you know ⁶¹⁹ very well.

Q. It is my assertion, Mr. Bakalli, that none of the Albanian newspapers in Kosovo were banned. Is that true or no?

A. It's not true.

Q. Even foreign diplomats, including Americans, used to tell me, Mr. Bakalli, that they were able to buy all Albanian press, all Albanian Kosovo press, at every corner, and now you're claiming that there was no freedom of press for Albanians in Kosovo.

A. You were talking about freedom of the press. You asked: Were they issued? I said: Yes, they were issued and then banned, issued and banned, issued and banned. And the Americans, or the American you're talking about certainly did see newspapers. But the history of journalism in Kosova in the past would be quite a surprising history of births and of banning of various newspapers. That's a question of the government. It's not a financial problem.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, I'm not discussing internal problems of a newspaper. What I'm referring to is that none of the newspapers were banned. You are claiming that that's not true.

A. It's not true.

Q. You've mentioned Koha Ditore just a while ago. Have you read the Rambouillet agreement which was published by Koha Ditore in its entirety in the Albanian language? Yes or no, please.

A. I know that I read all the documents -- I heard about all the documents in Rambouillet. But remember, at the time I was in Switzerland and was working on a project, a Swiss/Kosova project at the time, and I ⁶²⁰ don't remember the exact text of Koha Ditore, but I do know the essence of the proposals of the Rambouillet documents, which you did not sign because that was not to your advantage to enter into negotiations. You didn't want to lose the opportunity to rule over Kosova.

JUDGE MAY: Just try and stick to the point, Mr. Bakalli, and we'll all get on more quickly.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since you are saying that you worked on this Swiss project, as a result of which you were not in Pristina, do you know that the entire Rambouillet document was published in two parts by the Koha Ditore newspaper?

A. I don't know it, but I believe you that it was published, yes.

Q. You don't know about this?

A. I don't know it, but I do believe you that it was published, yes.

Q. Do you know that it was published even before the meeting in Rambouillet started?

A. I'm sorry, I don't really know. I wasn't in Kosova at the time.

Q. So you don't know about it. Do you know how many Albanians were killed by Albanian terrorists in 1998 and beginning of 1999? Do you know how many Albanians were killed by Albanian terrorists?

A. No, I do not know. When you use the word "terrorism," if you're talking about the KLA, I could tell you that they did not commit any criminal murders. If they did commit any criminal murders, they should be taken to court and tried, like every citizen of Kosova. No one is above ⁶²¹ the law or outside the law, the competence of the law. But I don't know of any number. If you have arguments, okay, bring them to trial, in national trials, in the national courts of Kosova.

Q. Do you think that when somebody plants a bomb at the market, as a result of which a lot of people are killed, do you believe that to be an act of terrorism? Or do you believe when somebody opens fire at the cafe full of young people, that constitutes an act of terrorism?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that it's an act of terrorism when somebody intercepts a forest keeper who is an Albanian and kills him? Do you believe that to be an act of terrorism?

A. It's a crime. Murder is a crime and you have to be taken to court.

Q. But you don't believe this to be an act of terrorism. Is it an act of terrorism when --

A. Throwing a bomb is --

Q. Is it an act of terrorism when somebody comes to the door of a house of an Albanian physician, who is a good doctor and is employed at a state hospital as a decent man, and somebody comes and kills him at the doorstep of his own house? Isn't that an act of terrorism?

A. Yes. The KLA did not do that. I know that. And if someone did commit such crimes, it was an individual initiative. Excuse me, Your Honours. I did express my reserves about the declarations of the Ministry of Justice of Serbia, who, in the last -- over the last few months declared again and again that we should be sending people to The Hague. ⁶²² If you want people, then you have to look among the members of the KLA and see.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, we will not get on if we have these very long answers. It would be much better if you would just restrict yourself to the questions.

We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: We'll go on with the evidence until half past one. At half past one we've got to stop to deal with some procedural matters. Mr. Milosevic, if you can -- if you would get through your cross-examination by then, we'd be grateful.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall try to do so.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.

JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Your microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It turned off by itself.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Therefore, when I asked you whether you knew how many Albanians were killed by Albanian terrorists in 1998 and 1999, and they killed and kidnapped hundreds of them, the way I understand your answer is that you didn't know about this. Did I understand you well?

A. No. I didn't know about that well. I know about a crime that was committed in 1988 to 1989 about a -- against a Serb in Kosova by someone of the Albanian side, by one of the KLA, of the UCK.

Q. You used the phrase "if somebody had committed a crime" then this ⁶²³ is how it was. Since you are saying "if somebody had committed a crime," I take it that you don't know whether somebody in fact did. My question pertained to Albanian policemen, forest keepers, physicians, mailmen, and so on. But let me get on with another question.

Do you know how many Albanians served in the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of Kosovo and Metohija during those same years, 1998 and 1999?

A. Could you please repeat the question about the police force?

Q. Do you know how many Albanians served in the police force in Kosovo and Metohija?

A. In my time or do you mean in 1998, 1999?

Q. I mean in recent years, 1998, 1999?

A. As far as I know, you eliminated all the Albanians on the police force in Kosova when you reigned over Kosova. You eliminated them all, and they formed their own trade union. And then you said they had been organising a trade union for obstructive reasons, to -- and put a lot of policemen in prison from Kosova. So I could say that there were no or very few Albanian policemen in the years 1988, 1989 -- rather, 1998, 1999.

Q. So you are telling us that there were no police -- no Albanian policemen except for a few exceptions; is that right?

A. True.

Q. Do you know that during the summer and fall of 1988, in addition to these regular police forces -- this is a new question, therefore. So do you know that by the summer and fall of 1988, in the hundreds of ⁶²⁴ Albanian villages, a local police was established? Have you heard of local police in Albanian villages?

A. No.

Q. You have not. Have you heard that in Albanian villages local policemen were elected by the village residents among themselves and that the state provided uniforms, weapons for them in order to maintain law and order in those villages? You don't know about this?

A. I know that many Serb citizens were given uniforms and were in Serb paramilitary units. That I know.

Q. When I asked you whether you knew of policemen who were local Albanian residents, you basically told me that you don't know of this. Is that right?

A. That's true. I don't really know anything about it.

Q. Do you know that a number of these local policemen, who were Albanians and were elected by the villagers themselves and who maintained law and order in villages, were killed by the KLA?

A. I don't know anything about this fact. Sincerely, I really don't know.

Q. Just a minute ago, you told us that there were Serb paramilitary forces there. Do you know that there was an order that applied to all units of army and police which said that in their zone of responsibility, they should arrest and disarm any paramilitary group?

A. No. I don't know anything about a disarmament order, but I do know that a lot of crimes were committed against the Albanian people.

Q. Were a lot of crimes committed by Albanians against Albanian ⁶²⁵ residents?

A. I wouldn't think so, but if there were any cases, evidence could be brought and people could be brought to trial.

Q. Were a lot of crimes committed by NATO against the Albanian population?

A. No. There was collateral damage which did take place. There was one case I know of. But NATO did make a declaration, a public declaration. But in essence, the people of Kosova were not afraid at all of the NATO bombing and wasn't afraid of the members of the KLA either, because the people were deported by force, by police, paramilitary, and army, to Albania and to Macedonia.

Q. That means that when NATO bombs hundreds of Albanian refugees in a convoy - and I have shown here photographs of carbonised corpses, children, and so on - you in fact are referring to this as collateral damage; is that right?

A. I know that there was no bombing, NATO bombing, or it was not the purpose of NATO bombing to hinder -- to do anything against the civil population. It was against the system.

Q. When a maternity home is being bombed, is that a demonstration to do no harm to the civilian population?

JUDGE MAY: That, Mr. Milosevic, is a matter of comment. It's not a -- it's not a question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, then.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know how the provisional Executive Council of Kosova and ⁶²⁶ Metohija in 1989 was composed?

A. It was appointed by the Serbian Assembly. I don't remember that, but you should know that it was appointed by the Serb Assembly; second, the majority of the members were Serbs; and third, there were also some Albanians and some Gorani, or some other nationality, whom you have taken over to your side. That was a Serb government and not a government of the Kosova people.

Q. When you say "Kosovo people," you in fact mean only Albanians; right?

A. No. No. I mean the Albanians of Kosova -- Kosovar, sorry. It was appointed by the Serb government. It was not appointed by the Kosovar Albanians or by others in Kosova.

Q. It wasn't the government; it was the assembly.

A. Yes. The assembly, Serbian one.

Q. And you believe that Kosovo, in fact, is not Serbia?

JUDGE MAY: We've been -- you need not answer that. We've been through this argument.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Do you know that this provisional Executive Council was composed of Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Muslim, Gorani, Romany, and so on, which means all of the ethnic groups that live in Kosovo? Do you know about this?

A. Yes, I do, but I also know that it was a tool, a blind tool, in the hands of the Serb parliament and government to rule over Kosova, and there have been some members in it of the nationalities that you ⁶²⁷ mentioned, but Serbs were in greatest number, and they acted under the orders of the Serb parliament.

Q. Are you aware of the fact that in that temporary government of Kosovo, Serbs were a minority as compared to the others?

A. I don't remember, and I don't think so.

Q. Well, there are people that I can name to you. For example, Albanian Dzafer Djukiu, who was a minister for social affairs, his throat was slashed in Pec, shortly after the UN came to Kosovo, and a bomb was planted in the house of the police minister in order to expel him from Kosovo. However, they managed to survive. My question was: Are you aware of the fact that Serbs constituted a minority in that Executive Council; yes or no?

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that. He says he doesn't remember and he doesn't think so.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are you aware of the fact that in the Serbian delegation in Rambouillet there were representatives from all ethnic groups from Kosovo?

A. Yes, formally they were, but in fact, they all were people who did not represent the will of the Kosovars. They were instruments in the hands of the Serb-Milosevic government and power, and as such they were elected.

Q. And who did the national delegation from Kosovo represent?

A. The delegation of Kosova was composed of the main political parties, legal parties of Kosova, plus the representatives of the KLA. ⁶²⁸

Q. Do you know Hasim Thaci?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you know his nickname?

A. No, I don't. No.

Q. You don't know that his nickname is "Viper," "Snake"?

A. I don't know of any pseudonyms.

Q. You don't know that he got the nickname because he poisoned his political adversaries?

A. I don't think that he might have done that, and I don't know.

Q. Was it logical for you that the head of the Albanian delegation in Rambouillet be Thaci rather than Rugova? Yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. It was logical you say?

A. Yes, logical. Yes. At that moment, the real political forces should have come together and be prepared for dialogue and agreements with Yugoslavia and with the international community. The reality, the reality that was created was such that the KLA had a dominant position. You might ask why it was so, because Mr. Milosevic did not agree to hold political negotiations in due course, and it was a forced solution under the new circumstances in Kosova.

Q. I don't wish to go back to those 11 times the delegation of the Serbian government went to Kosovo, but let me ask you this: Do you know how many Rugova associates, political activists of his party were killed by Thaci's terrorists?

A. No, I don't. I haven't followed these developments. I know that ⁶²⁹ some murders have been committed in Kosova which in fact have not yet been elucidated, and we will do that in due course. We see who is behind them.

Q. Do you consider those killings to be political killings, to have been political killings because they were political personages that were involved?

A. For most of these murders there are statements issued by the respective political parties and UNMIK police that they cannot conclude that they were politically motivated murders. UNMIK.

Q. So when Rugova's president of the municipal board of his party dies in a particular place, loses his life, that is not in a political killing?

A. It may; it may not. We have not to prejudice, a priori pass judgement on any murder that has been committed before evidence is presented and ruling is made.

Q. Do you know how many Serbs, Montenegrins, Muslims, Croats, Goranis, Romanies, Egyptians and other non-Albanian inhabitants were expelled from Kosovo and Metohija after the arrival of KFOR by the Albanian extremists?

A. You mentioned the word -- where our state. I may say that unfortunately the number of national minorities who -- especially of Serbs was very great who, after the KFOR forces arrival, left Kosova, intimidated or afraid that some acts of revenge might be taken against them, fearing the consequences of the tragic situation which was created in Kosova then. ⁶³⁰ The political parties, Albanian political parties, and I believe the future parliament and government and UNMIK, have a plan in place to ensure their organised return in Kosova to their own lands and homes.

Q. What lands and homes of their own are you talking about when the terrorists, after the arrival of KFOR set fire to several tens of thousands of Serb houses and homes? Are you aware of that?

A. If there are such cases, then we will work to assist them to build their new homes which have been ruined.

Q. Is it possible that when we're talking about tens of thousands of houses you use the term "if," "if" that is possible, do you really have no knowledge or know nothing about what is going on in Kosovo?

A. I think you are interpreting me wrong. I said that, unfortunately, their people have left, Serbs, and other nationalities have left Kosova after the war. I didn't say if they have left Kosova. And I am certain that we will help them to return, because they, too, will become citizens of Kosova, equal to Albanian citizens, and will have assure life. We need some transitory period to do that probably.

Q. So you believe, and please give me a yes or no answer.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because Mr. May, you have been cautioning me that I'm hurrying, but the answers took up too much time. They could be yes or no answers, but I'm not in a position to control them, you are.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And my question: Do you believe that KFOR could not have protected the Serbs and other non-Albanian inhabitants that were expelled ⁶³¹ from Kosovo?

A. I said that most of them have left Kosova not under direct pressure but out of fear that prevailed as a result of the war. And as far as I know, the KFOR and the international police are actively helping or are playing the role of security in Kosova for the Serbs that live there.

Q. Do you happen to know that of 2.500 kidnapped Serbs, the fate of 1.300 is not known and that on such a small territory as Kosovo that you cannot establish that along with the presence of such a large force there? Yes or no?

A. I don't know about the exact figure of people who have lost, disappeared, or who were kidnapped, Serbs, but I know that there is some figure and that it should be clarified, just as the question of 3.800 Albanians who have disappeared, whom nobody knows, should be clarified.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues] ... point. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you consider that the fear was unjustified for people fleeing from Kosovo when you have a figure of 3.000 killed since the arrival of KFOR? Do you think the fear is unjustified?

A. I think that after the war, people are afraid and people move from their homes.

Q. The reasons, therefore, are not linked to the burning of tens of thousands of homes and the killing of thousands of people and the abduction of thousands of people but just some kind of abstract fear. Is ⁶³² that what you're saying? Is that your assessment? Yes or no?

A. You are drawing your conclusions very quickly. I think fear was a dominant factor, but it is possible that in concrete cases, families have been evicted after the houses were burned. We will investigate these issues and take the adequate legal measures.

Q. I quoted yesterday, not here but when I was given the floor, a speech by one of your leaders when he said, "We ensure that Kosovo will be only for the Albanians. We will secure Kosovo only for the Albanians." That was a quotation. It was published and broadcast over the radio and television. What do you think about statements of this kind made by this particular leader that "We will secure Kosovo solely for the Albanians"? Do you support that? Do you support this kind of statement?

A. I don't support such statements, such a logic, and I think that there can be no one, not a wise man, politically or otherwise, that can say such a thing.

Q. That means that there are many Albanian leaders and Albanians themselves who do not support a statement of this kind.

A. Yes. I think that most of or all of them do not support such kind of statements, because we are building Kosova for the Kosovars and not only for the Albanians alone.

Q. Why do you keep making facial expressions, grimaces, as if you're not understanding the translation, when you studied in Belgrade and you understand every word I'm saying very well? Why do you keep making those grimaces?

JUDGE MAY: You do not need to answer that. I've had a note from ⁶³³ the interpreters asking you both to wait until they've finished before you speak.

Mr. Milosevic, we will have to, in due course, make a decision, if it's relevant, about the matters that you're raising, but it seems you've dealt very thoroughly with these particular issues. And of course, we'll be able to hear any evidence which you put before us on this particular topic. But I think we've now exhausted it, and perhaps you could move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Rugova [sic], do you know when Greater Albania existed?

A. You should ask Rugova. Are you asking me or Mr. Rugova?

Q. I apologise. I meant to say you, Mr. Bakalli.

A. Can you repeat the question, please, to me, address it to me again?

Q. Do you know when Greater Albania existed, was in existence?

A. As far as I know, it has never existed, Greater Albania as such, neither today as a notion -- maybe the notion of Greater Albania exists in some political platforms of Albania in the Balkans, but neither in Tirana, nor in Tetova, Pristina. The notion of Greater Albania is a by-product of Serb political propaganda aiming at presenting the Albanians as people who struck fear among others.

Q. Mr. Bakalli, the question was: Do you know when Greater Albania existed? You say it did not exist. You don't have to go into an explanation as to why. But do you know who established a Greater Albania? Or rather, do you know that during World War II, Mussolini and ⁶³⁴ Hitler established Greater Albania, and which parts of Kosovo at that time and which parts of Macedonia were included into this Greater Albania? These were historical facts, and you were a professor. Do you know about that historical fact?

A. I know very well, but it is considered a fascist and Nazi concoction about Albania, and not Greater Albania. The Albanians themselves, in Albania, Macedonia, and Kosova, with their anti-fascist war, by fighting against fascism and racism, Italian and German one, by taking an active part in the Second World War on the side of the alliance and as fighting as partisans, in fact, they have said that this is a fascist and Nazi concoction. So don't blame me and Albanians for that fascist creation, because we fought ourselves against it.

Q. I am not ascertaining guilt. All I am asking you is whether you have heard of that creation. You first said that you did not hear of it and now you say that it was a Nazi, fascist creation. So we've cleared that point up.

Is there a project for a Greater Albania present in Kosovo today?

A. In all the political parties of Kosova, Albanian political parties in Kosova, in Albania and in Macedonia, there is not any such project for the creation of some "Greater Albania," in inverted commas, but there is a project for freedom, peace, democracy, prosperity, and European integration, and the project for Kosova to become an independent state.

Q. Very well. You therefore claim that in Kosovo, there is no political force supporting the project for a Greater Albania?

A. That's right. ⁶³⁵

Q. Do you know about the terrorist attacks on the population and facilities in the south of Serbia by the KLA, effected by the KLA?

A. The KLA was the National Liberation Army of Medvegje, Presheva, Bujanovc, and it is not the doing of Kosova Liberation Army, KLA. Why it happened in Presevo, these conflicts, Mr. Milosevic knows that better than I do, because they occurred within -- in the southern part of Serbia. And then after the engagement of the international community, the issue was resolved, and I think things are moving in the right direction for a peaceful solution.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, do you know yourself anything about them?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean about Presheva?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. That was the question. If you don't know, just say so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, but this is not -- has got nothing to do with Greater Albania. It has to do with the position of Albanians living there in Presheva.

JUDGE MAY: The only issue here is whether you know anything about it yourself. And if you don't know, just say so and we can go on to something else.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we continue?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Was the KLA disarmed upon the arrival of KFOR?

A. Yes, it was. ⁶³⁶

Q. What are they firing from, then?

A. You know that there is -- the arms can be sold and bought. This can happen in Serbia, in Macedonia, anywhere. So these are individual questions of arms possession. But the KLA no longer is armed.

Q. Except individually?

A. Individuals can possess arms, because in Kosovo now, we are carrying out an action for people to surrender their arms, even on an individual basis.

Q. Does the KLA shoot in the south of Serbia and Macedonia? Is it shooting there?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop you for one minute, because what I want you to explain is what the relevance is of what is happening today to the indictment with which we're concerned, the period of which is 1999. Now, I understand your argument about the KLA prior to that. And what is the relevance of what's happening now to this indictment? We're now dealing with events almost three years ago.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be relevant because, as I have maintained here over the past few days, that it is a protracted crime that we are dealing with, that the occupation forces in Kosovo and Metohija are doing together with the terrorist organisation of Kosovar Albanians, the KLA. This protracted crime, which was a pooling of crimes, an association and joinder of crimes - and I gave an explanation of this with respect to political, strategic, and historical reasons and conditions - is continuing, and that is why it is relevant and linked to what we're talking about ⁶³⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Furthermore, do you consider, Mr. Bakalli, that it is safe and secure in Kosovo and Metohija?

A. According to the estimates of UNMIK institutions, which are responsible for security in Kosovo at this moment, together with part of local police, I think that the situation in Kosovo is relatively calm and stable. I personally am not pleased with the current situation, because I think that we should do away with any manifestation of lack of -- of intolerance towards other nations and towards Serbs in particular, for which I think we need some more time. But generally speaking, the situation is, according to their estimation, safe and stable, as I said.

Q. You said a moment ago, half an hour ago, in fact, that no institutions have yet been built up, and that is why I asked you the question of whether you consider it to be safe and secure, because I didn't seem to feel that it was logical for it to be secure if no institutions had been built, according to what you yourself said. But you say that the situation is safe. Now, I ask you: Are you safe yourself, personally?

A. As you might well know, never in my life have I been escorted by some bodyguard or police. I have always felt, when I was a leader and today, safe, in that Kosova, as it is. Nothing has happened to me. I have never been threatened, never assaulted. But there are other people who complain of being threatened and assaulted. The institution that you are referring to, this has got to do with the parliament, the government. They don't have much to do with the government -- with the security, ⁶³⁸ because, as I said, this is the duty, the task of the international forces, the KFOR, and the international police of UNMIK, together with some local police. The institutions are there, the institution of security.

Q. So for you personally it's safe, but you're not sure it's safe for others; is that right?

A. I think that everybody feels secure in Kosova.

Q. Except for the Serbs?

A. That is not true. I am in contact with the Serbs of Kosova, and the situation is not as tragic as you are trying to take it out here. It is not as good either. We are working to overcome it.

Q. As 360.000 have been expelled, then there are less of them now who seem to be a problem. You said that during Rambouillet, you were in Switzerland, and prior to Rambouillet. What were you doing in Switzerland?

A. You are changing your questions. I said I was there at the invitation of two Swiss institutions, for a project of theirs to build and to deal with -- to deal with the emergency situation in Kosova. I worked for that project. You are exaggerating the figures, I think. You are saying 360.000 Serbs.

Q. No. I did not say --

JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. If you could deal with the matters shortly, Mr. Bakalli, we'll all get on.

Now, is there any more questions about Rambouillet?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will skip the others. ⁶³⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I have to correct you. I didn't say 360.000 Serbs. I said 360.000 inhabitants of Kosovo, mostly Serbs, but Croats, Muslims, Goranis, Egyptians, Romany, and everyone else. This is a figure that I have. Do you know about the drug trafficking that is carried out through the territory of Kosovo and Metohija? Please respond with yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Do you know of arms trafficking?

A. No.

Q. You said just a while ago that anybody can buy weapons.

A. Well, weapons, yes.

Q. Well, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about weapons.

A. We are talking about organised, illicit trafficking in arms and drugs. Is that the question: Does it exist? As far as I know, it does not. But these are questions that have to be dealt with by the UNMIK institutions, and I am willing to trust their information and data about that.

Sometimes some arms are intercepted coming from the border. There is some sort of arms trade under way, but it can exist in Serbia and other states in the Balkans. It may be possible that such activity exists, but we are not talking here about organised trafficking in arms and drugs which has Kosova as one of its places, or Kosova is not one of its sources.

Q. So you are telling us that it isn't, although all other information indicates that it is. But we'll leave that for later. ⁶⁴⁰ Is there a single party in Kosovo-Metohija that is not controlled by the KLA?

A. Not a single party in Kosova is being controlled by KLA because KLA no longer exists as such, as a military organisation. Therefore, no party is under the influence of the KLA. The former members of the KLA are members involved or sympathisers of various political parties, but it is not true that one of these parties can proclaim to have monopoly in terms of the membership of the KLA because its former members have joined different parties, Democratic Party, the Alliance for Kosova Future, and Kosova Democratic League of Ibrahim Rugova, as there are also in other parties, in the Liberal Party, in -- and some other parties. So the question -- in answer to your question, I may say no, there are no parties under the influence of the KLA because it has been transformed by now.

Q. You have said that the KLA did not exist any more. So in that case, who is the Kosovo Protection Corps composed of?

A. Most of them are former KLA members but not all, because the Kosova Protection Corps includes also Serbs, Goranis, Turkish, and Romanies. But most of them are, in fact, former members of the KLA but not all. And it is quite another formation now. It is organised and accepted by the international community, and it has the support of the Kosova people.

Q. So you are telling us that within the Kosovo Protection Corps there are also representatives of Albanian residents, Serbian, Albanian, and Gorani residents? ⁶⁴¹

A. I'm sure of that.

Q. But you don't know who is doing the shooting in Macedonia and this other -- Serbia?

A. Southern Serbia, you mean? In southern Serbia, there was a conflict between the Liberation Army of Presevo.

JUDGE MAY: You were asked if you knew who was doing the shooting. If you don't, you don't know if there was any shooting, just say no, you don't know, and we'll get on more quickly. Mr. Milosevic, I think we could move on from this topic to another one.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about the links between Hasim Thaci and bin Laden?

A. I don't know of such links, and I am sure that there can be no such links between bin Laden and Hasim Thaci.

Q. Do you know about the creation of Mujahedin brigade Abu Bakir Sadik in Kosovo?

A. No. I've never known of its existence or whether it has operated anywhere.

Q. Where were you during NATO aggression?

A. I told you. I was in Switzerland, but my family was driven out of Pristina, was deported,, and my home in the university, the third floor, was completely demolished by the military troops. My family was deported to Skopje, to Macedonia. And right after NATO entered Kosova, two days later I arrived in Pristina, and I have not moved from there ever since.

Q. You were not present in Pristina when the downtown of Pristina was ⁶⁴² bombed?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment --

A. The downtown was never bombarded.

JUDGE MAY: He said he was in Switzerland. Now, let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You have mentioned deportation. Do you know about the false refugee camp called Stankovci at the border between Macedonia -- at the border of Macedonia which lasted for a single day and where several tens of thousands of Albanian refugees from Macedonia were put up?

A. I think you're making it up. It was a camp of the Albanians in Kosovo in Srgovs.

Q. Do you know Albanians who were killed during the air raids?

A. I've seen them on television, especially the case of the tractor on the road between Prizren and Krusa on the way to Djakova that was shot by mistake. It is public knowledge. I don't know of any other case.

Q. Did many Albanians die as a result of the bombing? Did you know the children who were killed as a result of bombing? Were the children killed as a result of bombing?

A. I think no. I don't know of any kids having been killed. I don't know. I don't have any information about that.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's now half past one. This -- the last part of your cross-examination went way beyond the evidence which the witness had given. There may be other witnesses that you could ask -- there will be other witnesses that you can ask about this. You have now been cross-examining this witness for three and a ⁶⁴³ half hours. Do you have further questions for him?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do. If he responds with a yes or no, we can finish in two minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you approve of the NATO bombing in Yugoslavia?

A. I absolutely approved the NATO intervention.

JUDGE MAY: That's sufficient. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since Kosovo, in the economic sense, was much more advanced than Albania, was it a result of the exploitation of Albanians in Kosovo?

JUDGE MAY: If you can't say, just say so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say. It's a hypothetical question.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Were the enterprises from Serbia contributing to the economy of Kosovo?

A. Don't forget that Kosova development, economic development was funded by the federative fund for the development of undeveloped regions. The participation of Serbia to that fund was greater because Serbia had the greater income per head of its population.

Q. Could you please answer with a yes or no.

A. But I can't tell you that these enterprises provided assistance because they had a brotherly attitude toward Kosova enterprises, but I can ⁶⁴⁴ say that they were engaged. They were involved in the economy.

Q. Do you think that it was right or legal to issue an amnesty for all the terrorists who killed children and women?

A. I don't know of any such case.

Q. You don't know of any such cases. And since the killing is continuing now, are they killing because they have by now developed a habit?

JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You were -- you held a high office in the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. When did you change your convictions?

A. Depends which convictions you mean.

Q. Well, perhaps your answer is that you have not changed convictions in fact. Did you change them?

A. I did change one of my convictions, and I will reply in Serbian, with your permission. And that is that you, Mr. Milosevic, destroyed Yugoslavia, with pleasure, by war. You were --

JUDGE MAY: That is enough. That wasn't the question. Mr. Milosevic, anything else?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. I do have a question. Does that mean that you were not a communist by conviction?

A. I don't want to answer this question. I don't want to answer -- to answer it. You are a communist younger than me. I was older than you, and I have no more illusions about the Yugoslavia that you ruined. Not ⁶⁴⁵ only ruined, but ruined every idea for such a Yugoslavia in the future.

JUDGE MAY: Again we're going away from the point. Anything else, Mr. Milosevic, or is that it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness answer this question of mine? I asked him does that mean he was not a communist by conviction?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes or no?

A. I have been always a pragmatist communist for whom ideology was not the key activity, but I was interested more in practical aspects of politics. When I worked, I felt good. I tried to implement the policy of the party that I founded myself.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. I think you've answered that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How many Albanians from Albania are living now in Kosovo and Metohija, Albanians from Albania and from Macedonia?

A. And if there are, very few.

Q. So you don't know about this. Do you know anything about the destruction of Serbian churches? There were 107 of them. On Saturday, the church of St. Sava in Mitrovica was torched together with books and icons, and so on. Do you know anything about this?

A. I have heard something and I severely condemn it, but you should not forget that the Albanians do not have attack the main Serb monuments like the Peja patriarch and like the monastery of Gracanica and others.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, I am going to stop you because in the ⁶⁴⁶ interest of time we've got to finish. We will no doubt hear much more evidence about this.

Is that it?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can somebody who is not an Albanian survive in Kosovo now? Yes or no?

A. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't have any further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

MR. NICE: About five questions. Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. Can you assist me briefly with answers to these questions, please, Mr. Bakalli? Dealing with the education problems that you've described, were -- when the Albanian education system, the informal one was under way, do you know if Albanian teachers were still being paid salaries by --

THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I have no translation. Please help me. Translation in Albanian. [Interpretation] No. No.

JUDGE MAY: Can we --

THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you now.

MR. NICE:

Q. Right. The question was: During the informal education system by Albanians that you've describe, were Albanian teachers still being paid salaries by the state? Do you know is that? Don't guess if you don't.

A. No. ⁶⁴⁷

Q. Thank you. You've been asked about the supplementary visits by the Serbian delegation to Kosovo after your first meeting that you described. Were you or your delegation ever invited to attend any of those, it is said, 11 other visits?

A. No. No. There was -- we were not invited. The television may have said that --

Q. Mr. Bakalli --

A. -- but we didn't receive an invitation.

Q. Thank you. The Jashari family, you've told us about that and been asked questions about it, but the one detail we haven't had is this: What were the gender and ages of the people killed in the Jashari compound? Can you recall, please?

A. I can tell you that there were children involved, old people, and women involved.

Q. Thank you very much. So far as your own family's deportation to Skopje is concerned, how many members of your family left for Skopje?

A. Six members.

Q. Your age or younger or what?

A. From my age down to the age of five or six. My little nephew.

[Trial Chamber confers]

MR. NICE: That's all I -- that's all I wanted to ask, Your Honour, but there is one matter of record that I must deal with. Mr. Milosevic said that he had no knowledge of this witness being a witness, and the course, as the Court will know from the papers served upon Mr. Milosevic, he was given notice of the attendance of this ⁶⁴⁸ witness. The witness's summary was provided to him on the 26th of November, and the lengthy interview upon which the court summary was based was served on him on the 11th of January and then in B/C/S on the 1st of February, and he's been listed in the documents identifying order of witnesses from the very beginning of the generation of those lists.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Judge Kwon.

Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bakalli --

JUDGE MAY: You can raise it later, Mr. Milosevic. Don't interrupt for the moment.

JUDGE KWON: Just for clarification regarding the Jashari massacre in Prekaz. The accused stated that there was a firing attack from inside the house against the police, but you said you didn't know any details about that, but could you tell the Court whether it is correct or not, whether there was a firing from inside the house or not?

A. I don't know.

JUDGE KWON: Now, you are invited to meet the president of a nation, and you are going to tell of some massacre in front of him, and you are now saying that you don't know any details. I can't understand what you're saying. Is it you are saying that there was no fire from inside the house or you just don't know?

A. I simply don't know. I don't say that it wasn't the case. I don't say that they didn't shoot. I don't know the details. I know, only know the result, that the whole family was massacred and that the whole ⁶⁴⁹ house was destroyed.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bakalli, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. [In English] Thank you.

[Trial Chamber confers]

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: We have, in fact, got another quarter of an hour before the next case comes in. What was it you wanted to say, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to say something with respect to the comment made to the material sent to me. There is a room full of papers and documents in the Detention Unit, and I don't want to fetch them because I don't want to communicate with the opposite side. I really didn't know who was the witness. I wasn't interested. I'm not interested now. But I don't want what I said to be denied in this way. That's what I wanted to say. Even if I did want to, I would probably need two years to read through all the material in that room, a truckload of paper and documents that they have so far sent to my address and which is located in that room. And I don't have any intention of doing that, because the whole indictment is false, and I have explained why it is false.

JUDGE MAY: Now, let us deal with the other matters we have to turn to. I remind everybody that Judge Robinson will be away tomorrow, and it is our intention, Judge Kwon and I, to sit under Rule 15 bis, the ⁶⁵⁰ two of us, for two days. But we should know what is proposed should be heard by the way of evidence.

MR. NICE: The first witness is Kevin Curtis, the lead investigator. There's to be a discussion stimulated by the amici in relation to the scope of his evidence, and so that discussion and the evidence itself may take some time. He is to be followed by a further investigator giving evidence, called Spago, and once that witness is concluded, we're going to embark upon what are called crime-based witnesses. I'm obviously very hopeful that we'll reach those soon, but it may be, in the event, not until the day after tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: It may be of assistance to say that we have had the chance of reading Mr. Curtis's summary, for which we're grateful. It would be even more helpful if it had page numbers on it.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, we, of course, don't provide you with -- I'm sorry it hasn't got page numbers, and that's an oversight. In this particular case, it may be helpful for you to be provided with the longer statement of which this is a summary, and I know that Mr. Kay of the amici is going to propose that. I'm only too happy to comply with any such suggestion or request. Of course, we normally don't supply statements, because it's not, at any event, at this stage, this Chamber's practice to receive them.

JUDGE MAY: Given the constraints of time, it may be more sensible to deal with this in the morning. But having looked at this statement, most of it seems to be hearsay, of a sort which we have, in previous cases, not found of any great assistance or any great probative value. ⁶⁵¹ But it may be that you want -- that, no doubt, is the point.

MR. KAY: That's the point. It seemed to us very important that the Trial Chamber should see the full content of the statement to know what it would be ruling upon. The summary is, by necessity, brief, but it would be much better to have the full statement there.

JUDGE MAY: We'll have the full statement overnight and we can consider it in the morning.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We'll hear any arguments. Yes.

MR. KAY: The other witness proposed is also the subject of legal argument, very much in the same context, but it's to do mainly with exhibits as well that he produces that have a number of video newsreels with commentary over them and assertions by the commentator which forms part of the tape that is to be introduced in evidence, and it seemed to us very important that there was a ruling about the quality of the evidence that was to be admitted by the Trial Chamber. There's an exhibit list that could be produced that would assist you in relation to that witness, and we would have no objection if you saw that witness's statement as well, to more properly rule upon the matter.

JUDGE MAY: Could we have those overnight, please?

MR. NICE: You can certainly have them. Indeed, I'm happy to say, as to the summary, that I happen to have with me now page-numbered summaries, so I'll make those available, and I have the original statements as well. Spago's statements will come via the usual channels, if it's not here. ⁶⁵²

MR. RYNEVELD: They're here. I did them.

MR. NICE: Spago's summaries are here.

MR. RYNEVELD: Page-numbered and sourced.

MR. NICE: Page numbers for Spago.

MR. RYNEVELD: And sources for the statement, if you want the statement.

MR. NICE: The statement will have to come later.

JUDGE MAY: The other matter to deal with is the Prosecution motion concerning a provisional pre-trial brief for the Bosnia and Croatia indictments, and the position, as I said earlier, is that we have had a chance of considering a timetable. It's quite impossible to make a firm timetable, as we acknowledge, given the time which is being consumed, but it may be that things will go more quickly. But in any event, what we have in mind, as I said earlier, is to try and get through the evidence on this indictment by an early date in July so that we can then take two months to prepare for the remaining indictments.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I know that the Prosecutor is herself today concerned to respond to the question that you asked of her in relation to that, and unless --

MS. DEL PONTE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Allow me to speak French. As you know, we have given explanations as to the number of witnesses, the number of documents we have with regard to the Kosovo indictment, and you told us that you had in mind end of July for the presentation of our evidence in this respect, and then we had the joinder of indictments. Therefore, we thought that we had to speed up the ⁶⁵³ process. We agree with that, save that it must be said: What we witnessed today leaves the door open as to the time when we would be in a position to finalise the Prosecution case, because it depends on the cross-examination. So when we start having witnesses for the crime base, and if we are to have cross-examination that are twice, thrice as long, it becomes very difficult to assess the exact time that we are going to need for the Prosecution case.

There is no doubt we're going to do our utmost to achieve our aim, but what I've heard these days -- of course, I won't be able to be in the courtroom every day. It may well be that we have to call other witnesses, even crime-based witnesses. It all depends, Your Honours, on the arguments provided by the accused during the hearings and the testimony. We have to adduce evidence of the crimes alleged in the indictment, and I hope that we will be treated by the Court in the same way as the accused, so that we can fulfil our obligations, our duty, as best as we can. Therefore, Your Honour, we try to act as swiftly as we can. Still, you have to take into account the fact that this is an important mission that we have to carry out, and it will very much hinge on the arguments as provided by the accused when hearing witnesses. So I do have to make some reservations. I may have to produce other witnesses as the need may arise. Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Well, we understand that, and of course there can't be any hard and fast rules as to time or, indeed, the number of witnesses, that it may change during the course of the case, but we would be grateful if you would aim for the beginning of July as near as possible. ⁶⁵⁴ There is the matter of the provisional pre-trial brief which is being selected. I have to say that we are not very happy about that. Although it's right that it was ordered in another case, I don't think that necessarily was a very good precedent. There's no provision in the Rules for anything like this, and I think the better course would be to aim at producing a pre-trial brief. If it becomes necessary, because of pressures of time and the like, to add a supplement, then you can always apply to do so, but I think that might be a more practical way to go about it.

MS. DEL PONTE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but if I remember properly, there was an amendment to one of the Rules, and in this way, this idea of a provisional pre-trial brief was introduced. I can't tell you which Rule is being applied, but there is this notion being introduced, and hence this idea, even if there's no hard and fast institution as a provisional pre-trial brief. You know, Your Honours, whether you call this a provisional pre-trial brief or a supplemental one, it doesn't really matter. The form is not relevant here. As you know very well, the problem we're faced with is this: If we say that by the 12th of April -- or 2nd of April we can have the list of witnesses and the list of exhibits, well, that's the 2nd of April. That's the day after tomorrow, basically. So we'll have to file a supplemental brief or a final one. Whatever you may call it, what is important for us is that we are under the very same obligation of carrying out our work as quickly as we can, but it's got to be done properly.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. You've made the point, Madam Prosecutor. ⁶⁵⁵ We have it in mind.

MS. DEL PONTE: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Unless there's anything else anybody wants to raise. Yes.

MR. KAY: Just one issue. You've been given the third witness to be called, his statement, and I --

JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that we have.

MR. KAY: If it assists the Court, if I liaise with Mr. Ryneveld, it can be sent back to you, what you need to examine the issue that is to be raised.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. If you would do that, please.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Half past 9.00, then, tomorrow morning. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a technical matter, Mr. May. I have received the schedule and the times for our work and sitting, and it said that on Thursday you would be winding up by 1.00, so I planned a visit of my family. I got a piece of paper where I saw that we were working all Thursday afternoon. I think that you ought to be correct in this matter. I have very brief moments that I could make use of to have contacts with my family, so I don't think it's fair for you to change it from one day to the next.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't know how that occurred. There's obviously some confusion in the dates. But if you've made arrangements to see your family that afternoon, then we won't sit. ⁶⁵⁶ Half past 9.00 tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

February, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.