1542
Wednesday, 6 March 2002
[Open session]
[The accused entered court]
[The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
WITNESS: QAMIL SHABANI [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. According to the information that I have, the village of Zegra was a rather highly developed village. There was a factory there, Jugoterm, where Serbs and Albanians worked, and also the agricultural combine Mladost, and there were paved roads, and there was electricity, running water, et cetera.
JUDGE MAY: Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly true.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Zegra was never bombed or shelled by the army and police; is that correct?
A. This is not accurate because the police and the army, the Serb police and army, have burned down the village of Zheger. But what the accused said is not true.
Q. And what about later? Was it NATO first and then the KLA that shelled and bombed the village of Budrike, six kilometres away from Zegra on the road to Gnjilane? Is that correct? 1543
A. As regards the village of Budrike, there was no KLA forces there. The village is inhabited entirely by the Serbs, and the bombing, the NATO bombing, was carried out in those areas where the Serb forces were deployed.
Q. So that is correct.
A. I said that it's -- it's not true. It's partly not true because there was no KLA shelling of the Budrike village.
Q. All right. At the medical centre in Gnjilane, there were 370 Albanian employees; is that correct?
A. In the medical centre of the hospital of Gjilan, before the NATO bombing, there were also Albanian doctors. But after the beginning of the NATO bombing, the Albanian personnel left the hospital, and that was under the orders of the Serb officials who were in charge there.
Q. Is it correct that there were 370 Albanian employees at the medical centre in Gnjilane?
A. That was the situation before the war. Yes, there were.
Q. And they left on orders given by the KLA; right?
A. No. That is not true.
Q. Just give a yes or no answer.
A. I -- I am saying no.
Q. All right. Also, the technical school in Gnjilane was attended by 405 Albanians; is that correct?
A. Which school are we talking about? The technical school? The schools in general were segregated.
Q. I said it quite clearly: the technical school. 1544
A. As far as the technical school is concerned, there were no Albanians there, because there was segregation in the school. The Serbs were studying separately from the Albanians since 1990, when the Kosovo autonomy -- when Kosovo was stripped of its autonomy.
Q. What was the difference between the education of the Serbs and the education of the Albanians, except for language?
A. There were some curricula and programmes which the Albanians did not accept. They were from the Serbo-Slav Federation. But we had our own national programmes, and hence the differences in history, language, music, but also in the exact sciences. But they are of a different nature, in fact.
Q. And what was the difference as far as natural sciences were concerned?
A. The difference can be explained by the competent people who have drafted those programmes. I do not know the difference between the Albanian and the Serbian programmes, but we have been working on the basis of the Albanian programmes.
Q. For Albanian children, schooling was in the Albanian language, and for Serb children, in the Serb language; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct, but the school programmes were different. Lessons for the Albanian students was taking place in the houses-turned-schools, whereas the Serbs were studying in the school premises, and the same thing took place from the elementary schools to the university level.
Q. I asked you whether schooling was in Albanian for Albanians and in 1545 Serbian for the Serbs. Yes or no.
A. I told you that was the case, but I also explained that the teaching was segregated, and that was being organised on the basis of different programmes.
Q. Teaching was separate in terms of language; yes or no.
JUDGE MAY: He's dealt twice with that. He said that schooling was in the different languages. I think we could move on now, Mr. Milosevic, from that.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. You did not answer my question whether it is correct that 405 Albanians attended the technical school. Yes or no.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Shabani, if you don't know, just say so.
A. As regards this one, I don't know. And the school that the accused is talking about did not exist. This is something that maybe the accused is imagining.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. The economic school -- the economic school, the school of economics, was attended by 952 Albanians, and that was in 1999, at that. Is that correct or not?
A. The economic school -- I said earlier that all the schools, the economic included, were segregated, and the Albanians were conducting teaching on the basis of the special Albanian programmes, which were different from those of the Serb system, educational system.
Q. Since you're a teacher, you know full well that when a teacher enters a classroom, he teaches whatever he wishes to teach. I'm not 1546 asking about the programme, the curriculum; I'm just asking you whether it is true that 952 Albanians were attending the economic school in 1999. Yes or no.
A. I've already talked about these elements. I've nothing else to say on that.
Q. You talked about the technical school. You did not talk about the economic school.
A. I talked about the technical school, and I said that the technical school, the economic school, and all the schools in the Gjilan area, they were segregated because the system operated on a different basis from that of the Serb educational system, and it operated on the basis of programmes that were designed, that were drafted by the institutions of the Kosova republic.
Q. It is not being contested whether Serbs studied in Serbian and Albanians in Albanian. Of course that was separate. I'm saying, did they go to school? You are not answering that question. And I claim that --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he has answered that. He said that they did. Now, let's move on to another topic, please.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. In Zegra itself there were 758 students, Albanians, 79 Serb students, pupils; is that correct?
A. I did not quite understand the question.
Q. In Zegra, in your village, there were 758 pupils, 79 Serb pupils. Is that correct?
A. This is not true. 1547
Q. How many Albanian pupils were there at the school in Zegra?
A. The number of the Albanian -- the number of students in the Zheger school was about 900, and as for the Serb students, they were a small number, about 30, 20 to 30, because the Serbian population in the village was very small. There were a few kids there. The number of Serb students between the first and the fourth grade of the elementary schools was small, and they took part in combined classes. So there were students who were -- teachers who were conducting teaching of students in two levels.
Q. Seven hundred fifty-eight students plus 79 students gives a total of about 900, as you have just said.
JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So they went to school, not to private houses.
A. The teaching in the elementary school of Zheger was taking place in the school premises, but the teaching was taking place on the basis of programmes that were drafted by Kosova, by the Republic of Kosova, and they were national programmes and not programmes designed by the Ministry of Education in Serbia.
Q. I'm not asking you about the programme. I'm asking you -- I'm saying that they went to a state school, not to a private house.
A. I said that a state school is the one which is protected by the state and when it's been used by Albanian students, but they were using quite different programmes, different from those of the state, and this is not the same.
Q. All right. They went to a state school; yes or no. 1548
A. No.
JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer and qualifications.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Do you remember your fellow citizens, Blerim Hyseni, the police took two pistols away from him?
A. I can't remember when and if that happened. I can't remember that.
Q. Do you remember Jahija Bislimi? He was employed at the Municipal Assembly of Gnjilane and a rifle was taken away from him.
A. I don't understand who we are talking about. Jamija, Jahija, it does not exist in Albanian.
Q. It is not Jahija, it is Jahi Bislimi. He was an employee of the Municipal Assembly of Gnjilane and a rifle was taken away from him.
A. I don't know a person with this name and surname in the village.
Q. And do you remember Esad Bidaku? An automatic rifle was also taken away from him. He's also from your village.
A. This name too, Esad Bidaku, does not exist in my village.
Q. What about Mehdi Musliu? Does a person by that name exist in your village?
A. Mehdi Musliu? With this particular name -- a person with this particular name that you mentioned does not exist. I don't know.
Q. All right. What about -- I mean, since you don't know any one of these villagers of yours, what about your brother, Shaban Shabani? Did you have a brother called Shaban Shabani? 1549
A. Yes, that's true. He died in 1993.
Q. All right. Is it correct that your brother, your older brother, Shaban Shabani, before the bombing, as a member of the KLA, went to Albania and got killed as he was crossing the border from Albania, as he was returning with his group; he was killed in a clash with the army of Yugoslavia during the month of April?
A. This is not true. About this case, I want to give my explanation to the Court and show what the reality is.
Your Honours, my brother, Shaban Shabani, was a retired man. He retired as an invalid because he was suffering from heart disease. But when in Albania there was democratic change, he went there to recover from his illness. After he went to Albania, he died from a heart attack in Dures. Together with my brothers Refik Shabani and Ibrahim Shabani, we went to collect the corpse, the body of my brother, in Albania, and we did not have permission from the Serb Ministry of Interior. That's why we got across the border. And I want to tell you that what the accused is saying is not true.
JUDGE MAY: Would you repeat again when it was your brother died.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. When the war broke out, that is to say, on the eve of the 24th of March, you were principal of secondary education in Zegra; is that correct?
A. No, I was not the principal of the secondary school in Zheger.
Q. I didn't say secondary school; I said secondary education, this 1550 BLANK PAGE 1551 secondary education that you organised, and you appointed people as to who would teach what, et cetera.
A. No, I wasn't the person who appointed teachers either. That's not true.
Q. Since you said that it is not correct that your brother was killed as he was crossing the border, do you know about Agim Ramadani, a former officer of the JNA who was killed as he was crossing the border at Kosare, and he was buried in Zegra a few days later? You spoke on the anniversary of his death, and this was attended by Hasim Thaci, because he was one of the terrorists of his. Is that correct or not?
A. As far as Agim Ramadani is concerned, it's true that he took part in the battle of Koshare, and he was the commander of one of the units in Koshare, and he was killed on the 11th of April, 1993 in Koshare. As far as Hasim Thaci being in Gjilan on the occasion of the solemn meeting organised, this is not true.
Q. Did you speak at this anniversary of Agim Ramadani's death?
A. No, I did not speak. There were others who did.
Q. All right. I'm just asking you. You just say yes or no. Let us save time. Before the NATO aggression in the second half of 1998 and in 1999, you made lists of all Albanians from Zegra who were of age so that they could join the KLA; yes or no.
A. No, we didn't do such a thing.
Q. Do you know anything about the mobilisation that was proclaimed by the KLA in March 1999?
A. Regarding the mobilisation, I have heard through the radio and 1552 television nothing more about that.
Q. And are you aware that in Zegra, in the village of Lashtica, in the immediate vicinity, the police seized 150 automatic rifles, 80 short guns, Scorpions, pistols, Hecklers, 7 sniper rifles, and that there were 7 sniper positions in the territory of Zegra? Do you know about all of this?
A. These are not true. The police, before the war, beginning from 1999 onwards - sorry - beginning from 1990 onwards, it has always taken retaliation actions in our village and has always accused our inhabitants of possessing illegal arms. They have maltreated people. There are two people who have been mistreated, and both of them died. I might give you the names. Mehmet Hajrullah and Salih Isufetahu, who died as a result of that. Mehmet Hajrullah, after he was released from the detention, he died in his own home. The other one, Salih Isufetahu, he died after a month after he was released and tortured by the Serb police. There are other people there.
JUDGE MAY: No need to go, at this moment, into detail. If you answer the question shortly, Mr. Shabani, we'll get on more quickly. The Prosecution will have a chance to ask you some more questions at the end if there is anything which needs clarifying.
Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So would you please give me a yes or no answer to the following question: Do you know about the fact that these 150 automatic rifles were taken away, and the others, the 80, the seven snipers and all the other 1553 things that I enumerated, the 80 short guns, et cetera? Is that --
JUDGE MAY: He said it wasn't true. He said it wasn't true.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Is it true that after the 10th of June, when the French withdrew from your area and the Americans took over in the territory, that 150 terrorists of the KLA arrived from Macedonia via the village of Stantici on the Macedonian border in the middle of Zegra village and this same man, Esad Bidaku, toured the KLA and you attended this ceremony? Is that true or not?
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are getting interference from the Albanian interpretation channel. We apologise.
A. No, that is not true. I'm not aware of these things. When I arrived from Macedonia, it was on the 26th of June. Therefore, I am not aware of all these things that you are enumerating here.
Q. I'm asking you here a yes or no answer, please. Yes or no.
A. I already said no, I am not aware of this.
Q. All right. What about the police station in Zegra? Sadih Sofi worked there, a policeman, an Albanian. He lived in a state-owned apartment with his wife and three children. The KLA stormed his apartment, beat him up, raped his wife and beat up his children. Do you know of that event?
A. I don't know that the personality Sofi, as you say, he was beaten by the police. He was in the service of the Serbian police, but after that, the police were no longer there. I know that he went to Gjilan, but 1554 I don't know anything about his whereabouts after that, after he was -- if he was beaten by the KLA or other things. I don't know anything.
Q. Let's move on to something you do know about. You said that the forces of the Yugoslav army arrived in Zegra ten days before the bombing; is that right?
A. That is true. About ten, 20 days ago they came.
Q. All right. Ten or 20 days. It doesn't matter. Yesterday you said ten. If you're saying 20 now, I don't mind. It makes no difference to me.
You said that they dug trenches, and then you explained that they prepared to defend themselves against NATO. As you said that they arrived and dug trenches and prepared to defend themselves from NATO - and those were your words yesterday, you spoke those words - did you deduce from that that there was a possible front line being set up there?
A. This was a matter for the Serbs to take positions the way they thought they deemed better for them along the valley of Reke in Zheger village. They took positions there. That was their own decision, to defend themselves from NATO strikes, from land or airstrikes.
Q. Did you conclude that this was a possible front line, then?
A. I don't think that was a front line because they wanted to fight with the KLA because there was no KLA there, but I think that was their decision, to prepare themselves for an eventual outside intervention.
Q. Well, I'm talking about that intervention. So they were there to defend themselves from this outside intervention, and then I assumed that it was a sort of front line. Is that right? Possible front line? 1555
JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has answered that as best he can, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Did you want to get away from that front line and take refuge from it?
A. We had our own homes. I don't think that it was a good thing to have the front line in the village. The Albanian population of Zheger village were displaced and killed and injured.
Q. All right. We'll come back to that. You spoke about that yesterday. You said that when the bombing started, as you said, the Serb forces became even more furious and wild. How did you come to that conclusion that they became more furious and wild? Did they froth at the mouth or what manner of -- what way did this wildness manifest itself?
A. The savagery was manifested in the way they treated the people, which is they started to mistreat, to beat the people, to fire at the roofs of the houses of Albanians, to insult the Albanians who passed by in the streets or even to -- to do -- to commit many other such acts against the Albanians.
Q. All right. Yesterday, throughout your testimony, you did not demonstrate to us that anything happened to anybody. You said you yourself went to Macedonia, and we'll get to that in just a moment. So how did they manifest this behaviour of theirs? How did they go wild?
JUDGE MAY: He's just said that. He said in the way they treated the people, et cetera. 1556
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You spoke about the event that took place on the 29th of March and the arrival of some sort of paramilitary, and then you went on to say that you had heard about that. The Prosecutor asked you what their uniform looked like, and you said you didn't see anything. You said that your house was a long way off. So, in fact, you yourself did not see them. You just heard about them; is that right?
A. Yes, but there were other eyewitnesses whose houses were located closer to the school and to those places where these forces took position, these paramilitaries that I said.
Q. And what, according to you, is "paramilitary," Mr. Shabani? Could you explain to us? What do you mean by "paramilitary"?
A. In my view, a paramilitary is an armed man who commits criminal deeds on the basis of certain well-programmed objectives by certain people with the sole purpose of defending the army or the police to make believe that they are not involved in the murder of the citizens. This was a common phenomenon in the Serbian army. This happened in the Bosnia war and all the time. The paramilitaries were used to help displace the population from their homes.
JUDGE MAY: We're now moving from the subject.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. How can you differentiate between the paramilitary and the army?
A. I can differentiate between them in the way they were dressed. The paramilitary were -- used some handkerchiefs, and they took part in 1557 murders and were more savage and prepared to commit murders at any moment.
Q. As far as the readiness to commit murders, you said yourself here that the Serb population was preparing to liquidate the Albanians, and you were talking about the time at the beginning of the aggression. Were you yourself liquidated? Did they liquidate you?
JUDGE MAY: Did you yourself suffer any beating or anything of that sort?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already told you that I myself did not, but they fired at me when I was going away, when I was leaving, along with the other civilian population.
Q. But they didn't hit you?
A. Fortunately, no. Fortunately, no.
Q. Did they hit anybody?
A. Yes, they did. They hit and injured other people who were in the convoy. We have two cases, a male and a female, who were injured.
Q. So in the convoy, two people were wounded out of all that shooting that went on.
Now, you said that they were preparing to liquidate you. What, in your opinion, prevented them from liquidating you?
A. I don't know what aims they had at that moment, but I know that they wanted to kill some and to deport the others. That was the main goal of theirs. And this came true in the case of our village, I have to say.
Q. All right. How do you know that they were preparing to liquidate you and then they didn't liquidate you? How do you know that? 1558
A. We knew -- we heard this, that some Serbian citizens said that they had prepared the lists of Albanians who had some authority in the village of Zheger whom they wanted to liquidate, to do away with, and the list was there in place, and it waited to be realised, which in fact it did.
Q. That means you were liquidated, were you?
A. I was not --
JUDGE MAY: No need to answer that question. It's a comment. Yes. Now, anything else, Mr. Milosevic?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I have something else, yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You said that you became afraid, that you were frightened of that liquidation, and that you went out, that there were 1.200 people, and that it was raining; is that right?
A. Yes, that's right. When murders, injuries, were committed, we were scared and panicky and left our homes and took to the mountains.
Q. Well, as it was raining, you went back inside, into the house; is that right?
A. On the next day, in the morning, because we spent the night outside under the rain, all together, women and children.
Q. But the next day you returned, you went back, didn't you?
A. Yes. My house happened to be situated very close to Kushlevica Hill, but other citizens whose houses were situated in the hinterland of the village, they stayed at our own homes, fearing that the situation 1559 BLANK PAGE 1560 might be repeated, so they stayed with us.
Q. You said that you fled after the killing and wounding. Who was killed and wounded that you had to flee [as interpreted]?
A. I told you that the brother of Shyqeri Tahiri was killed. Their aim was to liquidate Tahir Tahiri, his brother, the chairman of the LDK. Then Nexharije Tahiri was also injured. She is a relative of Shyqeri Tahiri and Tahir Tahiri. So their families and other families heard of this, of what was happening. Other people who were beaten and traumatised as a result of the mistreatment, they all were scared and they all took to the hills of Kushlevica.
Q. And who killed Tahir Tahiri?
A. I don't know that. I think you may know better than me.
Q. You claim -- you're claiming here -- that is to say, you're testifying here about everything that you heard about but didn't see, so that's why I'm asking you. Who killed Tahir Tahiri, who you say was killed?
JUDGE MAY: He's answered that he doesn't know.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Very well. You also said that the police killed Ukshin Ukshini because he had lighted a candle; is that right?
A. They hit Ukshin Ukshini's house before the paramilitaries arrived in the village, so this happened two or three days after the NATO airstrikes began, by army soldiers who were deployed at the agriculture cooperatives. They fired at his house when they saw a candle lit. They saw the house of an Albanian who was in -- looked better than the others. 1561
Q. And you consider that they shot because somebody had lighted a candle?
A. I am saying what happened, and that the firing was -- took place in this case because of a candle, of a lit candle.
Q. That's what you say, and when they heard your testimony, I was given information that it was from the roof of that house that Ukshin Ukshini had shot at the army, and it is correct that it took place two or three days after the NATO aggression, and it is true that it took place during the NATO attack, and it is true that he shot at the army, and it is true that he died shooting at the army. Are you aware of that? Do you have that knowledge?
A. No, I don't think that's true. It cannot be true what you are saying.
Q. Well, it's probably true that people are shot for lighting candles.
You said that he was shot at and then you said that the house was shelled. Now you have to choose: Was the house shelled or was he shot at? Which of the two is it?
A. What you are alleging here, that because of a candle, of a lit candle, one cannot be shot at from a distance? I mean, that was something that could be done by the Serbian army that was deployed there. His murder, his killing, happened on the 30th of March, in the morning. At 9.30 was the moment when he, Ukshin Ukshini, and his wife were killed, and they were killed by the Serbian forces, who struck terror also among the other citizens and other families who happened to live nearby. 1562
Q. Please, you said yesterday that his house was shelled. What I'm asking you is: Did they shell his house or did they shoot at Ukshin Ukshini and his people? You have to choose, because you said both these things. So what was it? Which of the two?
A. In terms of time, we have -- everything happened over two days. The firing happened before, two days before; the killing took place two days after. That's why this may have been created.
JUDGE MAY: Can you just explain? What is being suggested is that either Mr. Ukshini was shot or his house was shelled. It may be that you're saying that both happened, but perhaps you could make it clear.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going to explain this. I said that when the NATO airstrikes began, that night his house was shelled. Maybe they chose his house because they saw a candle lit, because at that moment, nobody fired. Then his murder was committed two days after, after these events that I said, after the shelling of his house. This happened in the morning, not at night. At 9.30 in the morning of the 30th of March. And I think that this is clear.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Did you see it happen?
A. I have heard this from other eyewitnesses who were close by him.
Q. All right. Once again, you don't know how he died, but you heard about it. Very well.
You went off to Donja Stubla after that and took refuge in the house of other Albanians and stayed there until the 4th of May; is that right? Which means more than a month. You said that there were 20.000 1563 people who had gathered together and that you then decided to go to Macedonia. How come you speak about 600 people immediately after that? How does 20.000 turn into 600 people?
A. I'm trying to explain this. There is a time interval. It is about a month, in fact. If the number of the people that I mentioned, about 20.000 citizens that I have stated, I have explained that they were comprised of Albanian inhabitants of Zheger, Lladove, Nosale, Remnik, Budrike e Eperme, Gjylikar, Mogille, and Kuteseve [phoen] villages. These are all villages where Serbian forces were involved in killing, looting, and raiding, burning the homes of Albanians, which forced them to leave. I explained also that on the 15th of March -- sorry, of April, the village of Gjylikar was stormed as a result of which there were six casualties. Two houses were burned and four-- four of the -- four other victims were buried at Stubell e Ulet, in a meadow.
Q. I'm not asking you to repeat your testimony of yesterday. What I'm asking you is how 20.000 people turned into 600 people when you started out.
JUDGE MAY: He said, in fact, in his evidence earlier that the reason was that villagers from other villages came to find refuge there.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And then?
JUDGE MAY: What's the question?
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. I don't understand. I'm trying to explain this to myself, and I'm 1564 asking the witness, therefore, to explain to me how 20.000 persons - and that is his claim, that that was the number of people who were there and decided to go to Macedonia - how did they en route turn into 600 people all at once? Where are the remaining 19.400?
JUDGE MAY: He says they came from other villages and it happened over a period.
Now, is that right?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right. During -- they came over a long period of time when their villages were being, as I said, looted and raided, and people were being killed by the Serbian forces.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So they were coming and going, and you, the 20.000 of you who were there includes all of those who came and went from that place and to the place while you were there. Is that the way I should interpret your explanation?
A. I don't understand the question.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Shabani, at what stage did the group amount to 600?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the time over which that happened was long, and the population of Zheger amounts to about 4.000, and it has big families, and they -- other people came from other villages around. The villages were attacked by the Serb forces, and they came to find shelter on that plateau. The population came there, and they were hungry, and they were in want of everything. The aim of the Serb forces was to create a large crowd of people so that they could exercise a mass 1565 deportation.
JUDGE ROBINSON: How many actually --
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Robinson, please.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me repeat the question. Of the 20.000, how many actually went to Macedonia?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that from the 15th of April onwards, they were going in groups, and they were organised spontaneously. And they left from the 15th of April. We have groups of families who set out to flee the country. Every two to three days such groups were formed, and the group I was part of -- there was another group after the 4th of May where the son of my brother was. They also came across Serb forces as they were going towards the border.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. We're getting away from the matter now. I understand you to say that you -- they went in different groups to Macedonia.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... continue.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You said that you set out, when you decided to go to Macedonia, that is to say, this group of yours of 600 persons, that you set out during the night lest you be discovered; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct. And the rest of the groups who set off towards Macedonia, set out towards Macedonia, they tried to exploit the opportunity not to be in the sight of the Serb forces, but some of the groups happened to come across those forces and suffer mistreatment at 1566 their hands.
Q. So you made an effort to go to Macedonia to seek shelter, to get away from that terrain, unnoticed by the army and police?
A. Of course all of us in the group did not like to be sighted and come across Serbian forces, because we were aware of what would happen to us.
Q. So that was the general opinion that prevailed in that group of 20.000 persons, to get into Macedonia unnoticed, not to be seen by the army and the police; is that right?
JUDGE MAY: His evidence had been about the group which he was with.
But was it -- what can be asked is this: Was it the general view amongst the 20.000 or so who left for Macedonia that they should try and get there unnoticed?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true. All the people tried not to be noticed by the Serbian army and paramilitaries because they would suffer at their hands. They knew it. This was a symptom which prevailed among the people who decided -- who were forced to flee. They feared deportation.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, gentlemen, that it is not right to intervene in this way, because it could be seen quite clearly from the statement made by this witness that there was no deportation. They were fleeing from the battlefields, from the theatre of war. They were even trying not to be noticed by those who were allegedly deporting them. Therefore, this is a striking example -- contrary, that there is no 1567 deportation.
JUDGE MAY: What is the question, Mr. Milosevic?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will go on with the questions, don't you worry, but I'm just trying to draw your attention to this.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You were saying that you were surrounded by the army and the paramilitaries at a particular site when you were in the field, in a field; is that correct?
A. Yes, we were surrounded. In the case of Rrushtaj, the group I was part of was surrounded by such forces who were at that moment there.
Q. We've heard that. We've heard that yesterday. We heard that yesterday. You explained that first the men were searched and then they put you all together. All things considered, nothing happened to any one of you, and then you proceeded. And then you were ordered to walk for one kilometre. They told you to sit down. And then you said that the commander - I noted that down - the commander with the military and paramilitary forces came to you personally to talk to you, that he came to talk to you, with the military and paramilitary forces and you on the other side, to ask you why you had called NATO in. Please, what did you answer him?
A. If you're asking for the answer I gave to the commander of the Serb units, it was -- that was a conversation which took place under duress, with guns -- machine-guns, barrels, directed at me, and they standing very next to me, asking explanations why we left our homes and what was the intention behind that, why did we ask NATO to come in. 1568 BLANK PAGE 1569
Q. You said that yesterday. Tell me, what did you answer him? He asked you why you called NATO in. He actually had a conference with you. He, with his paramilitaries and militaries, and you, among those thousands of people in the field, you were conferring as to why you had asked NATO to come in. So what did you answer him?
A. The answer I gave at that moment was that I did not personally call NATO in, although the arrival of NATO was as a result of demand of all the population of Kosova. But I was terrified by the Serb forces and Serb soldiers who were there at that moment, and the paramilitaries, who at every moment were ready to execute me if I said something else. As to why we left our homes, I told them that our houses were burned down. And they asked me who burned those houses. I knew that the houses were burnt by the Serbs, by the Serb paramilitary, and the soldiers together, and other people from the village who had been assigned specific duties. Although I couldn't say this to him, that this was committed by the Serbs, but I told them that the houses were burned, but I don't know from whom. I don't know who burned our houses.
Then I heard humiliating comments about my nation and my people, and I was being told that: You want to go to Macedonia and then to Albania and then join the KLA. But I told them that that is not true, because I'm leaving together with my family because my house has been burned. And in similar conditions were the rest of the group I was part of, but I was speaking on my behalf.
Q. Then, after that, as you had said, they let you go on and they told you to go to Presevo; is that right? 1570
A. Yes.
Q. Just say yes or no, please. I don't want to be deprived of more of my time by Mr. May.
A. I said that we were ordered to go in the direction of Presheva, but we didn't know what was waiting for us there, because there were other Serb forces there. And on the way, we deviated from that direction, and I've stated that earlier.
Q. We heard that yesterday. We heard that yesterday. As you know, everybody -- perhaps those who are following this do not know this, but Presevo is outside the territory of Kosovo. It is in Serbia. Presevo is not in Macedonia. So you were directed to Presevo, but you managed to sneak away, through certain paths that some people knew, and somehow managed to get to the border; is that right?
A. Yes. We walked across some other paths and to the border. We did not go to Presheva; that is correct.
Q. Yes. And over there you passed soldiers. Nobody touched you. You said that yourself. You also said that in your written statement, and you said that during your testimony. Nobody asked you for documents, nobody took away your documents; is that right?
A. We were not stripped of our documents, but we were mistreated, and the humiliating comments that we heard from them. Every moment they were saying, "We will kill you." They were all obvious, all too obvious.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to draw your attention, gentlemen, to the fact that the first witnesses said that they heard over the radio and the media that the Serbs would take revenge on them, and 1571 since that proved to be a notorious lie, because this was not the case, and every knows that, now witnesses are saying that individuals personally explained to them that they would take revenge on them. I think --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop you. This is not the time for comments. Have you any more questions, please, for this witness?
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Please, the question was clear: You were not touched, you were not asked for documents, your documents were not being taken away; is that correct? Yes or no.
JUDGE MAY: That was his evidence, that the documents were not removed and he wasn't asked for them. He hasn't said that.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of this fact, I would like to draw your attention to it once again, because I think that everybody should note that those who are testifying and who are crossing the Albanian border --
JUDGE MAY: You can make the arguments in due course. The witness is here simply to be examined. The Court will have seen that there's a difference between what happened to this witness and what happened to others. It will be a matter for us what conclusion to draw. And at the end of the case you can comment, but at the moment, let's just stick to questions.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. The question is why, therefore, those who crossed the Albanian border say that their documents were taken away from them and those who 1572 crossed the Macedonian or Montenegrin borders claim that their documents were not taken away? Is it perhaps because the Macedonians and the Montenegrins are not going to lie on their behalf?
JUDGE MAY: This is a pure matter of comment, Mr. Milosevic. It's not a matter for this witness. He said his documents weren't taken; that's all.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Were your documents or the documents of anyone in your group not taken away?
A. No. At that moment, they did not take documents from us, but other groups said that their documents were taken away.
Q. All right. We've already heard about this pattern. It's getting to be boring and it's hearsay anyway.
In your written statement and later on, you said something to that effect while you were being questioned here, you said that the army shot at a person called Avni, that they killed him. As a matter of fact, you said that they massacred him. And the truth is quite different. This person was retarded. His father stated that they had left him behind, tied up, because he was mentally retarded. The army found him dead and brought him there, and that's when the authorities got this statement from the father, that this is a young man who was mentally retarded, whom they had tied up themselves so that he would not create problems for them. Do you know about that?
A. Yes. I have heard about this case when I returned, that Mr. Zenani was killed by Serbian civilians of the Zheger village who were 1573 armed - those civilians were armed - and that the killing was carried out on the 6th of July. And that was to intimidate the Albanian population from returning to their homes, because they wanted to make it a fact for the Albanians who were deported not to come back, and that was carried out by the Serb forces, and that is how the population felt.
Q. You are saying that this was done on the 6th of July?
A. Not on the 6th of July, but the 6th of June. That was six days before the NATO forces came there.
Q. Now I'm going to read out your written statement. You said now that this was on the 6th of June. That is to say that you were not in Zegra yet when this happened; is that right?
A. Yes. I was not in Zheger when it happened. I was in the village of Sllupcane, in Macedonia. But I heard about this from the witnesses, from the eyewitnesses.
Q. All right. All right. You were not in Zegra. Now I'm going to read out to you what you said in your written statement about that killing. This is what your written statement says, the one that you gave: "A few days before the airstrikes began, a man from the village, Avni - I don't know his last name - was going to his home, which was behind my house, a bit further up on the hill. It was evening. Three or four policemen whom I knew were in the field. They were about 400 metres away from him. One of them was called Jova, but I don't know his last name. Another one was called Dragan, but I don't know his last name either. And I did not know the rest. The two I have named were from Zegra. They were shooting from a distance at Avni, and then they walked 1574 up and massacred his body, although I don't know why they did that. After killing him, they mutilated the body and carried it away." And so on and so forth, not to take up any more time by reading this. So you wrote something that was completely to the contrary of what you've said over here. My question is: Did you give statements only to the investigator or did you give statements to some other persons as well except for the investigator who put questions to you here in this regard? Who else did you give statements to?
A. I've only given a statement to the investigators, but here I have forgotten to mention the case about which I heard from Hysen Hyseni, who was together with Avni Zenani. He said that Zenani mustn't go home because he will be threatened by the Serb forces, but he did not heed the advice and he went home to collect some stuff in his house, and there he was shot at by armed people who were at a distance of about 500 metres from the hill of Kushlevica. I said that as regards this actual case, I wasn't there present but I was in Macedonia. But I wanted to say that this was told to me by Hysen Hyseni, and the killing was carried out by the Serb forces in the village of Zheger.
JUDGE MAY: We're now going to adjourn. It's half past ten. Mr. Milosevic, have you got very much more for this witness?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a few more questions, a few more questions, of course.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. You will conclude in 20 minutes, please, after the break.
We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes' break. 1575
--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Have you heard of the name Halit Hyseni? He was from your village. Halit Hyseni?
A. Halit Huseini?
Q. Yes.
A. I have never heard of this name. Maybe it's not exactly written or pronounced in this way. Maybe Halit Hyseni or something else. The name is not familiar to me.
Q. All right. Do you know about an event when, on the 29th of March, the army intervened in the yard of Halit Hyseni and that they shot at the army from that yard, and then that four persons were arrested who were armed, and they were taken to the military prison in Pristina. Do you recall that event that took place on the 29th of March in your own village?
A. These -- it's not true that this event has taken place. I know nothing about it.
Q. All right. You say you don't know. Is it true that you, in 1988, were a cashier of the KLA in Zegra, that you collected money from the local population and that you were caught with money and lists and were taken into custody and detained in the police station but the police 1576 released you afterwards? Do you remember that?
A. I was a cashier of the financial service of Gjilan municipality for Zheger village, and I collected the money to fund the education, the primary and the secondary education. And regarding the interrogation at the police station, that's true.
Q. So you were taken into custody and detained with the money and lists on you.
A. Yes. I had all the documents on me.
Q. All right. You spoke about the area of Zegra and Donja Stubla, which is where 300 KLA members came after the Americans had arrived, and set fire to and razed all Serb houses to the ground. They set the church on fire and destroyed the cemetery. Do you know about that event, when they destroyed the Serb cemetery?
A. What you say about the KLA soldiers destroying the Serb cemetery, that's not true. Maybe some extremists on their way to the village, when they saw their own homes burned down, in sign of revenge, they may have set fire also to the Serbs' houses.
Q. Is it true that the Serb houses were razed to the ground, and the church too?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Do you claim that it wasn't done by the KLA?
A. No, it was not done by the KLA.
Q. Who did it, then?
A. I said, maybe some extremist elements in the village, people in the village, in sign of revenge, when they saw their houses burned to the 1577 BLANK PAGE 1578 ground.
Q. So you consider that the KLA is not a terrorist organisation and is not an extremist organisation, as far as I am able to understand your answer. Am I wrong in thinking that or not?
A. In my view, the KLA is not a terrorist organisation but an organisation that stood up in defence of the people and fought the Serb terror and atrocities perpetrated against the Albanian population of Kosova.
Q. If they fought against Serb terror, why, then, did they kill so many Albanians? What do you have to say about that? What is your opinion?
A. If they have killed some Albanians who have been involved and cooperated with the Serb forces, that is, traitors to the nation, they may have done such a thing.
Q. So several hundred Albanians were traitors of the nation; is that what you're saying?
A. Maybe tens [as interpreted] of Albanians who have cooperated with the Serb Secret Service for the interests of Serbia and Yugoslavia, to the detriment of the interests of the Kosova people.
Q. How, then, do you explain the fact that when they killed a doctor, an Albanian who was not in a secret service but just working in the general hospital, or they killed a forester who was an Albanian, or a postman working for the state carrying around letters in the mail, or the forester or a local Albanian who the Albanians themselves elected to keep their village safe? Are they all traitors too? 1579
A. I have no knowledge about what you are saying here. Maybe if you could give me names and last names, I might be in a better position to give my feedback.
Q. Well, I will quote some first and last names, although I have enumerated many names so far, but I have names for you too. Do you happen to know, at the beginning of the bombing, many Albanians went to Gnjilane to stay with their relatives there, and during the bombing, they went to visit their properties that were looked after by the Serbs? Do you know about that?
A. No, I know nothing about that. During the time of the bombing, when the Serb forces were in Zheger village, Albanian inhabitants of Zheger who went to Gjilan, as you say, and visited their homes, I know nothing about that.
Q. Do you know that a significant number of Albanians stayed on in the village and that the Serbs helped them, being good neighbours? Do you know anything about that?
A. I know only about people who were deported, and that no Albanians remained in Zheger village when it was being torched from the 5th of April and onwards. An old man, who was called Ramiz Seferi, Ramiz Seferi, an old man and his wife who didn't leave the village even though the Serb forces, military, paramilitaries, went to their home to mistreat them, but they told them, "Better kill us here than make us leave our home," because they were about in their 90s, and who, after liberation, he died because of old age. He was willingly waiting for his death at his own home rather than have to flee it. 1580
Q. But nothing happened to him. Among those who stayed on was Ramish Fazliu, from whose house, probably to thank the Serbs for looking after him during the war, later, when the American KFOR arrived, shooting was done on some young people: Momcilo Zivkovic - he was 20 years old - and a medical student, Sasa Stanojevic. They were seriously wounded and managed to come to a shop owned by a Serb, Jugoslav Mihajlovic, where they were shot at again from Fazliu's house, who was otherwise a member of the KLA and had worked in Switzerland for a long time. Zivkovic, the owner of the shop, was seriously wounded and another man killed. Do you know about that event?
A. I told you, I have no information about that. As regards this case, I was -- this happened during the time I was in Macedonia, so I have no knowledge about that.
Q. But they were treated afterwards with the Americans' bomb-filled base, and later on in Skopje, but you knew nothing about that; is that correct?
A. That's true. I know nothing about that.
Q. Kasim Isufi stayed on in the village and asked -- he asked the Serbs to transport his family, and the Serbs helped him throughout. Do you know about that other case?
A. Maybe Kosum. I know no Kasim. I know one by the name of Kosum Isufi. Maybe you are talking about him.
Q. I said Kasum Jusufi. That's what I said.
A. No. Kosum is his name. I know no Kasum.
Q. Kosum Jusufi. All right, then. Jusufi. Did you hear about that 1581 case?
A. What are you talking about? That he was -- he stayed on in the village, a man of 90 years of age?
Q. No. First of all, I am looking at the transcript, and it says that I asked about Kasim Isufi. I didn't ask about any Kasim Isufi. I asked about Kasum Isufi. But let me repeat the question anyway. In the village, Kasum Isufi stayed on. He remained there. And he was asked -- he asked the Serbs to transport his sons from Gnjilane and they helped him throughout the war. Do you know about that? I didn't mention a rifle. I didn't mention any weapons at all.
A. I am not aware of this case.
Q. Do you know that in the house of Izet Haziri, they left a person who was not able to move? He was a young man. He was locked up, and that when he cried out for help, the Serbs came and helped him, and, together with the police, they managed to transport him to the Gnjilane hospital, where he remained for treatment. Do you know about that particular case?
A. I know nothing about the case you are talking here.
Q. What about Fatim Isufi, Fatim Isufi who was mentally retarded and left alone in the village?
A. Fitim Isufi was not left alone in the village, because there was also his father there. But when the Serb forces entered his house, breaking down his door, the door of his house, his father was feeding the cattle when he heard the noise and the shouts, and he was scared and he stayed there in the cow shed and was waiting to see what was going to happen. 1582 Fitim Isufi woke up from his sleep - he was a mentally retarded person - and at that moment he was shot by the Serbian forces. This was testified to by his father Sukri Isufi [phoen]. That is, his father didn't dare leave the cow shed and see what was happening to his son, I mean to see his dead body, because he was afraid that he might have been shot himself. This is what I know.
Q. It is true that he died. Is it true that he attacked the policemen and the soldiers with an axe from behind the door and they didn't know that he was -- they didn't know that he was mentally retarded and that that was an unfortunate incident and that is the truth of it? That's what happened. And his father, of course, did not want to see that. He was in the barn.
A. No. It is not that he didn't want to see, but he didn't dare see his dead body because he feared that he, too, would have been killed. Who is that father that doesn't want -- doesn't wish to see the dead body of his son or daughter?
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time is practically finished that we've allotted to you, but you can ask two or so more questions.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that you had set a time limit. I have several very vital questions to ask.
JUDGE MAY: Well, ask them quickly.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll skip over some of them, but I am going to ask others.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Do you know that after the 10th of June, 1999, in the territory of 1583 the Gnjilane municipality, 87 Serbs were killed, one Albanian, and five members of other ethnic groups? Do you know about that?
A. Where? Where did that happen? In what village? In Zheger or where? I am not clear.
Q. In the Gnjilane municipality, but I'll read out two names from the village of Zegra itself. Nebojsa Zivkovic, for example, from Zegra village - it happened in Zegra - and Momcilo Zivkovic, on the 22nd of June, 1999, also in Zegra. Do you know about that?
A. I know nothing about that because I was in Macedonia during that time. So I know nothing about what happened with these people.
Q. And do you know about the killed Albanian Daut Morina at the Ferizpetrol pump on the 22nd of August, 2000?
A. Yes, I heard about that. I did.
Q. And do you know about the killing also of -- that took place in November 1999 and then in March 2000, April 2000, Xhaber Rexhepi, Qamil Ramaci [phoen], Haxhi Agushi, Inekmi Agushi [phoen]? Do you know about them, about those killings? All that happened on your own territory.
A. I know nothing about these murders. I don't remember these names.
Q. All right. You said that the Albanian population was cheerful when the bombing started, and these are your words. You said that, for you, it meant the end of Serb rule and the Slav peoples. That's what you said. "The end of Serb and Slavic rule."
A. Even earlier I said that we used to organise demonstrations against the Serb violence which even before the war took place in 1584 Drenica. We have always asked for outside help and assistance because, as the population of Kosova, we felt defenseless and discriminated against, tortured in every segment of life.
Q. I am asking you about what you yourself said. "The end of the rule of Slav peoples, Slav nations." Are you a racist?
A. No. I don't know myself to be a racist. I may say that the end of the Serbian and the Yugoslavian government in Kosova, because I cannot imagine Kosova without the presence of Serb elements in it.
Q. Well, you won't be able to imagine it without the presence of Serb elements. You needn't worry about that. But you said, "the end of Slav peoples, Slav nations." What have you got against the Slav nations, the Slav people?
A. I was talking about the sufferings to which my people were subjected in the course of their history. It is a fact of life that our people have always been suffering.
Q. I'm asking you something quite different. What have you got against the Slav peoples? Because you said, "The end of rule of Slav nations." The Macedonians are a Slav nation, and you're shooting in Macedonia, killing Macedonians. Do you think that Macedonians should be expelled from Macedonia as well?
JUDGE MAY: The witness has given an answer. It will be for the Trial Chamber to determine what weight to give it. Now, Mr. Milosevic, two more questions and then the time has elapsed.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 1585
Q. Do you know how many citizens died under the bombs and whether they, too, were cheerful if they were Albanians?
JUDGE MAY: The latter part is a comment. Do you know how many people died as a result of the bomb?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the -- what kind of bombing? If you mean the NATO bombing --
JUDGE MAY: NATO bombing, yes.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If you talk about the NATO bombing against the Serb forces, I have no information about that, about the casualties --
JUDGE MAY: Very well.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or whatever.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, one last question.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And do you believe that the families of those Albanians who were killed in NATO bombing were also cheerful over the fact that they were being bombed by NATO?
JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. The amici, have you any questions?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours, only a few matters that Mr. Shabani referred to. I would like to clarify them, actually.
Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Shabani, awhile ago you said, when Slobodan Milosevic was questioning you about the killing of Avni, that you learnt 1586 BLANK PAGE 1587 about that only upon your return. Did I understand you correctly?
A. Yes, that's correct. When I returned, I heard from Hysen Hyseni.
Q. Can you explain when -- when you were being questioned by investigator on the 13th of June, the 15th of June, and the 16th of June, precisely in your village in Zheger, at that time you described this event as if you had watched it yourself. How do you explain this?
A. Even earlier, but now in the case of investigators, I have told them, I have mentioned the name, but probably they didn't understand it. Maybe in the course of the interpretation, something, I mean, has not been properly interpreted, because even then I mentioned this during the -- during the investigation. Also I said this. But probably it didn't come out properly during the interpretation, I think.
Q. No. You said then that you saw the policeman who did that. You even said to one -- that one of them was Jova, that the other one was Dragan, that they were from Zegra, and you explained from what distance they were shooting, and you described it as if you had been watching all that.
MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in fairness, if --
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. RYNEVELD: -- if the amici is putting to the witness that he said he saw, I believe -- I think the Court ought to look at the passage in the statement since both have now cross-examined on this point. In fairness to the witness, to suggest that he said he saw was --
JUDGE MAY: Can you read out what he said, please?
MR. RYNEVELD: Would you like me to? 1588
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just read it out so we can hear.
MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I believe this is the same passage that was put to him by the accused, but the words were: "There was about three to four policemen I knew in the field, about 400 metres from him. One was called Jova LNU --" meaning last name unknown -- "the other was Dragan LNU. The others I did not know. The two I have named were from Zheger." Now, I understand how my friend is suggesting that he saw this. However, the witness is simply saying that the names recounted to him were people he knew. That's -- that is -- and I think -- I have copies of the statement here.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'd better have them.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could copies please be provided? Because he did not mention at all that anybody had told him about this. He was talking about the distance, how they walked up to him, what they did. Not at a single moment does he mention that it was somebody else who told him about this. Please have a look yourselves.
MR. RYNEVELD: I accept the fact that it is not clear that this is something he heard and it does read as if he saw it himself, but he's explained that.
JUDGE ROBINSON: What page?
JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us where it is, please.
MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. It is in the fourth paragraph of the English version, which reads, "start page 2." So the beginning of the statement itself, the cover page being page 1.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please 1589 explain? If he cannot explain, I'm not insisting on this. I just feel duty-bound to point this out.
JUDGE MAY: I think we have the point, Mr. Tapuskovic. We have the passage in front us.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Perhaps I would not have even asked about this had Slobodan Milosevic not referred to it awhile ago. So I thought that this required clarification.
JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I have an English version of the statement. The last sentence of paragraph 4 is this: "I heard this from a local after I returned." That's what he said.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Yes.
Q. [Interpretation] The first day when you spoke here, you said that in the village that you lived in there were about 70 Serb families, and beforehand you said in this witness statement that we've been referring to that there were 98 Serb houses, Serb families. So which one of the two is correct?
A. The correct version about the number of Serb houses would be -- I said it's not a precise number. I said it's an accurate number because there were some families from Zheger village that lived in some houses in the city. So the number is variable. So in fact, we didn't count the families exactly. More or less this is an estimate.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I do have to go back to what I read out a minute ago. I have carefully read what I read awhile ago and also in reference to what Judge Kwon said. It is the morgue that he refers to as being something that he heard about from a 1590 local. So I really have to draw your attention to this. Mr. Shabani was talking about this thing that he was not sure about. He was not sure about what happened at the morgue. So it is not related to the event itself. I have to explain this yet again, because I noticed it only now.
JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that I agree with that interpretation, but we have the whole passage, and we'll have to determine what weight to give it.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. However, in relation to the houses, he also said at the beginning of his statement something else, that in that part of the village where the Serb houses were predominantly, between and among these houses there were quite a few Albanian houses as well.
Q. Is that correct?
A. I said around these houses there were also Albanian houses. Around Serb houses there were also Albanian houses. This is what I said. The Serbs were not isolated or the Albanian houses were not kind of clearly divided from the Serb houses in living in certain areas. This is what I meant.
Q. You said clearly last time that those Serb houses that were there had Albanian houses among them as well. That's what you said only yesterday.
A. I only said that around the Serb houses there were also Albanian houses. That is, the Serb houses were not separate from the Albanian houses. They were neighbours. They had only the walls of the houses separating -- of the yards separating them, but they lived in close 1591 proximity with each other.
Q. Well, does that mean that Serb houses were totally surrounded by Albanian houses and that between the Serb houses there were no Albanian houses whatsoever?
A. I am not clear. I'm sorry, I'm not clear about the question.
Q. If there were Albanian houses around the Serb houses, were there any Albanian houses between and among the Serb houses?
A. Yes, there were some Albanian houses between and around, and also the same can be said of Serb houses.
Q. Were Serb houses among Albanian houses outside that particular neighbourhood?
A. I'm not clear. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question, please.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the relevance of this? Can you help us?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The relevance will be shown through my next questions. I need to hear -- actually, the witness put it this way: He said that Serb houses were in one part of the village and that among them there were Albanian houses. He said that yesterday. He explained it a bit further today, and then he explained that around the Serb houses there were Albanian houses. I asked him whether among these Serb houses there were Albanian houses as well, and he said yes. And now I'm interested whether beyond that circle where the Serb houses were, were there any Serb houses outside that circle in the neighbourhood where there were predominantly Albanian houses?
JUDGE MAY: Yes. The question I asked you was what is the 1592 relevance of this? How is it going to assist us in trying this case?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May, then I have to continue with my questions so that this could be understood.
JUDGE MAY: No. Can you explain to us why you are asking these questions. What is the point?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am putting these questions in relation to the pieces of white cloth that he referred to, that he referred to yesterday. I have to ask about this so that I could put further questions about these pieces of white cloth that he referred to yesterday, and he said that these were an expression of fascism and of fascist genocide. That's the reason.
JUDGE MAY: Can you ask the question about the white cloth, please, and we can move on more quickly.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. He said that the Serb families marked their homes by putting a piece of white cloth on the door, and he said that this was an expression of fascism, or rather, the fascist feelings among the Serbs.
Q. Now, my question is: Is this the reason, or is it possible that the Serbs put up these white cloths on their houses so that they could perhaps show the houses that no gunfire was coming from?
A. No, that is not true. This means that such -- the idea was, behind the white cloth, that such houses should not be attacked or shot at by people who didn't know, were not familiar with the ground and, because of their ignorance, they might also shoot at the Serb houses, that is, their own troops, their own forces. That's why they did that. White 1593 cloths put on their doors was done by the Serbs themselves, as I said, for certain purposes that I just explained.
Q. Thank you. Is the white cloth also a sign of surrender?
A. If you look at it from -- during the war, in wartime, the white sign might be taken as a sign of surrender, but in this case the Serb forces were present all over the village. So the sign marked out the Serb houses from the Albanian houses, so those could not be targeted at by the Serb forces, who should shoot only at the Albanian houses, which didn't have any white cloth. That was the crux of the matter, I would say.
Q. Thank you. That would suffice, as far as I'm concerned. I'm interested in the following, though: Could this also have been a sign that in these houses with the white flags, there were no members of the KLA?
A. No. This was only a sign that these houses belonged only to the Serb population. That is all. It has got nothing to do with KLA. Otherwise all the houses, with the exception of those houses with the white sign, would be Albanian houses.
Q. I'm just interested in one more thing related to this question, and then I will go on. On these white cloths, was there any sign? First of all, was there a fascist sign or any sign on these flags?
A. I know from fascist methods used that they tried to separate one identity from another, one house from another, with --
JUDGE MAY: Just concentrate on the question, please. Was there any sign on the cloth or not? If there wasn't, say so, please.
A. No. It was only a plain white cloth on their doors. That's what 1594 I said, such kind of cloths. I mean, this is what I saw, only that. My house was a little bit far away from these houses. I couldn't see from my home, from that distance, if there were any special signs in these white cloths.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Shabani, you said yesterday and today that then you arrived at the village of Donja Stubla. There were no Serb forces or policemen there; right?
A. In the Lower Stubla, when we went there, at some moments there were no troops. When we were there, the Serb forces arrived. The Serb police came only to see -- to monitor the situation, to see what was happening, and for their own interests, which they know themselves.
Q. Please, could you explain this. In this statement that you gave to the investigators, you said, verbatim, and I'm reading this: "There were no Serb forces there or policemen." That's the first thing you said. And then you said, on the next page: "The Serb forces never came to Stubla."
JUDGE MAY: Well, I think you should read on.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The police only went to Gornja Stubla, but not to where they were. Further on in the text, it also says: "The army and the police did not come to Stubla at all." This is the fifth paragraph on that page. So he repeated that four times, and the last time he literally said: "The army and the police did not come to Donja Stubla at all." It is one, two, three, four, five, the fifth paragraph. And they were there for all of five weeks, and the army did 1595 BLANK PAGE 1596 not come there at all. It's the fifth paragraph. Please. He repeated that four times, and he said, quite unequivocally --
JUDGE MAY: Can we put a question, please.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. The question in relation to all of this is the following: He said yesterday that this was a concentration camp, this place where they were quite safe and where the army did not come for all that time, five weeks, and they left there of their own free well, on their own, without any kind of escort. He said yesterday that this was a concentration camp. He did not mention that before, at all, so why did he say that? Why did he say that it was a concentration camp if there was no army or police? If he can explain that, please.
A. The Serb army and police were around the village, the villages. That is to say, all the Serb forces were keeping the population under observation. They were monitoring the situation there from the surrounding hills of the village of Stublla, and they had the opportunity to act at any moment, but they knew the time when they would act. All the region was surrounded by the Serbian forces.
Q. You had never explained it that way before.
A. I said that then.
Q. I'm just asking you about what you saw and about what you said. Perhaps it is the way you're putting it right now, but you didn't say that before, and you never said that there was a single policeman or a soldier there. That is what you had said then, and that is what you had said, in a way, over these past two days. 1597
JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Tapuskovic. What this witness just said was stated in the witness statement again:
I noticed that they were just always observing how many people were in Donja Stubla and the surroundings woods. They were military forces in the surroundings of the village, but they never came into the village.
He said that in the statement.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Judge Kwon, I did allow for the possibility a while ago that they were somewhere around the village, but he talked about a concentration camp, and they were there for five weeks without having seen a single one. They did not see a single one.
JUDGE KWON: Well, I just remind you -- I'd like to remind what he said in the statement.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is a question I shall no longer insist upon. It can be a basis for drawing a conclusion in a way.
Q. You also said here that you were being shot at, and you saw what you said you saw. And in your statement, which I'm referring to and which is before the Judges, on page 4 - no, 5 - you said: "They were shooting, but we did not know who they were shooting at or whether they had seen us at all."
A. When we were fleeing, on the way, I have stressed that we were being shot at by the Serb forces from a distance. All the population present there heard the sound of gunshots, and I have stated that, and there were wounded people. 1598
Q. I'm not denying that. I'm not challenging that. But you said: "They were shooting, but we did not know who they were shooting at or whether they had seen us at all." However, there was shooting there. Nobody is denying that. There was shooting there, but they were not shooting at you, and you do not know who they were shooting at.
A. That we didn't know who they were, but we were aware that the Serb forces were shooting at the civilian population, and this is the truth, and I spoke about it earlier.
Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also said that your group, the group that you were in, had their money taken away from them. Is that correct?
A. This is true. As we were going towards Macedonia, someone who was there, he started to ask us to collect money, to collect the money from us, and he was saying that it were designated for certain purposes, certain things, but I don't know what for. That person was related to the Serbs.
Q. I'm not asking you to say yet again what you've been saying yesterday. I just wanted to check whether I had heard it right. But you said before: "They did not ask our group for any money, but later on I did hear that they asked other groups for money." So that's what you said earlier on when you were --
A. It's true that other groups ahead of us and other groups that followed us, they were searched and looted by the Serb military forces.
Q. I am just asking you about what you know, and you say that you heard later that others had their money taken away from them, but you only heard about that. That's what you've been telling us; right? 1599
A. Of course, I wasn't there with the other groups, but that's what members of those groups stated.
Q. You encountered the military. You were going along those roads, as you said - nobody escorted you - and then you crossed the border. When did you see the military? When did you come across the army?
A. I saw them in the Rrushtaj village, in one part of the Rrushtaj village. That's where the military came in front of us. That was about 2.00.
Q. Near the border?
A. The border was another ten kilometres further away. So there was another distance to reach the border.
THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat his question? We could not hear it because he was overlapping the witness.
JUDGE MAY: Can you repeat the question?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall be quite direct. I don't want to beat about the bush.
Q. You said verbatim earlier on - this is the last paragraph of your statement - "Near the place where we crossed the border into Macedonia, in the trenches there were soldiers. Nobody stopped us, and we did not come across anyone as we were crossing the border." And here you've been saying that you were afraid that you would see the army lest you be massacred. So first and foremost, is it true what you said then, that: "There were soldiers in the trenches where you crossed the border into Macedonia, nobody stopped us, and we did not come across anyone as we were crossing the border"? 1600
JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, could you rephrase it shortly, please.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is hard to rephrase something that is contained in his very own statement. I'm asking him whether it is indeed so, the way he put it here in his statement. "Near the place where we crossed into Macedonia --"
JUDGE MAY: Just put a short part of the statement to him, a sentence or so, and ask him if it's correct.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You saw soldiers in the trenches just before you crossed the border?
A. The army was present, but we were not focusing on that because we wanted to cross the border and it was dark and we don't meet them, and I stressed that.
Q. Nobody stopped you?
A. Our group was not stopped. We were stopped at the Rrushtaj village. But when we crossed the border, we were not stopped.
Q. You were not the victims of a massacre when you encountered the army? And that is what you had feared. This is the only remaining question I have for you.
A. As can be seen, I was not a victim, because I would have been killed and wouldn't be here.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. 1601
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
MR. RYNEVELD: One administrative matter, if I might. Could a number be assigned to the statement that -- might that be marked as an exhibit?
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. One question in re-examination, if I might be permitted, for clarification. Sorry.
THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 31.
MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
Q. Sir, under cross-examination, it was suggested to you by the accused about an incident where you were alleged to be the cashier of a financial service for the KLA. You then gave a response that you were a cashier of some education fund and that you admitted that you were taken into custody for questioning by the police. My question to you simply -- that's the issue I want to direct you to. My question is: Was that cashier's service have anything to do with the KLA, as suggested by the accused?
A. No. It had nothing to do with the KLA. It was exclusively for humanitarian purposes, for educational purposes, for paying teachers and so on.
Q. Thank you.
A. This was its purpose.
Q. Thank you.
MR. RYNEVELD: One final matter, Your Honour. In 1602 cross-examination something was put to this witness for which we do not have documents with us, but we do intend to call another witness later on in these proceedings to provide evidence by way of rebuttal.
JUDGE MAY: Very well.
MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Shabani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
[The witness withdrew]
MR. KAY: Your Honour, before the next witness is called, which you will see on the list that's been provided this morning is a witness called Kadriu, in a position that's been changed from a previous designation of order. It was going to be Witness number 15 in that list, Sakir, who was going to be called this morning. The accused has made a number of comments to me about the change in the order because he had prepared for the witness Sakir this morning, and the change in the order means that he is unprepared to deal with the witness Kadriu.
JUDGE MAY: It looks as though he's going to give extensive evidence, judging by the summary. There can be no injustice if he gives his evidence in chief now. We don't call upon the accused to cross-examine. The accused can prepare his cross-examination overnight.
MR. KAY: Yes, it's often difficult to explain this matter because we've got an earlier finish to the day today, and of course that witness will still be giving evidence and probably all through tomorrow as well.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there anything you want to add, Mr. Kay? 1603
MR. KAY: No. Cross-examination is --
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Kay.
MR. KAY: No. Cross-examination really is the point. If the accused can hold back his position. He is yet unaware how long this witness is going to be, I think.
JUDGE MAY: This witness is going to be some time, Mr. Nice, isn't he?
MR. NICE: This is a substantial witness, and although I'll do everything I can to make it brief, I think it's likely to take not only today but most of tomorrow's session in chief.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you will not be called to cross-examine this witness who is coming today, and it's likely you probably won't start until Friday, although you may have to make a start tomorrow.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] The gentleman heard my conversation with the representative of the Registry sitting in front of you there, and she told me during the break a moment ago, she informed me that the order of the witnesses had been changed, and I reacted to that when she told me, I hope with -- I rightly -- I did so
(redacted)
(redacted)
(redacted) (redacted) Kadriu on your list.
As you know full well, gentlemen, of all the means that I have at my disposal -- actually, I don't have a telephone. That is my only means of communication. And I think, therefore, that it is logical for me to 1604 BLANK PAGE 1605 expect to have a timetable for one week without its being changed, regardless of whether this is something that the opposite party wants or not, whether it suits the opposite side or not, because I'm able to come by relevant information in that way.
In a situation -- in this kind of situation where I have nothing at my disposal except a telephone box in the corridor of the prison, any changes in the order of witnesses directly denies me of this minimum element and means of arriving at the truth with respect to the testimonies and statements of your witnesses.
I insist upon being provided with a timetable for the order of witnesses at least a week in advance so that I can act accordingly.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the accused has a point. He's representing himself and, therefore, it is more complicated for him than in the normal case if the order is changed. Now, no doubt there's good reason for this change. If you would bear it in mind and keep it -- any changes to a minimum.
MR. NICE: Before I come to deal with that as a matter of urgency, may the comments he made about protected witnesses be redacted from the broadcast to the public, please.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. NICE: On the other point, he's had lists of witnesses, and of course they always are susceptible to change at the last minute, but he's had the lists available to him for months, and the statements to read. We do our best to notify the changes in the immediate forthcoming witnesses whenever we can. Yesterday's fire is the immediate problem of the latest 1606 necessary change, but we'll do what we can.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Kay.
MR. NICE: Before the next witness is called -- sorry.
MR. KAY: Sorry. Just on the matter of the accused's facilities, the amici have filed a motion today relating to provision of assistance for him in the conduct of his defence. There was one motion filed, but it's been re-filed in much more clearer terms, I hope, in its argument. Maybe that would be something that the Trial Chamber might deal with fairly expeditiously.
JUDGE MAY: Well, we've considered the other one. We need to hear what the Registry say about the present arrangements and any comments they may have, and in fact, we filed an order today ordering the Registry to comment.
MR. KAY: I'm grateful.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. NICE: Before this witness comes in, I've had a request from a member of the press, saying that they are having difficulty in filing copy with witness names accurately spelt because frequently they can't pick up the spelling simply from the name read out, and they are concerned both that they should be professional in what they distribute, and they're also concerned that witnesses shouldn't have their names misspelt, and apparently in the past one or two witnesses have had their names misspelt in a way that makes them barely recognisable.
It seems to me that that, if I may say so, is a not unreasonable request. The only way of getting round it, if we don't do what I'm going 1607 to propose, is that the press have to come to the Prosecution and seek these details and I'm always concerned to keep to a minimum contact between the press and the Prosecution for obvious reasons. Might it be acceptable to the Chamber when a witness is called to have his name simply revealed on the overhead projector, properly spelt, as I've prepared for this witness, so that it can be accurately reflected in newspapers?
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. NICE: Thank you. In which case, may Mr. Sabit Kadriu come in, please.
JUDGE MAY: We shall be adjourning at 12.15.
MR. NICE: While he's coming in -- the witness is being brought --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic wants to raise something. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to say the following: This change in the order of witnesses is profoundly one of principle. We cannot, and the accused especially in a day when a witness is to be questioned, be informed that that particular witness will have to be questioned on that day. So we all have to do our duties to the best of our abilities and as far as we are able, and faced with a situation of this kind, when not even the amici curiae know what witness is going to be questioned in advance but when the questioning goes ahead, this goes against the basic principles guaranteed by the Rules and Statute itself. So if we are here to enable and facilitate the work of the Trial Chamber, this should at all costs be avoided in future.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not a matter of principle. The 1608 principle is that the trial should be fair, which means that the accused has sufficient time to prepare for his cross-examination. That we will ensure happens. Thank you.
MR. NICE: While the witness is being brought in, if he may be, can I also inform the Chamber he brought a number of original documents with him in both Albanian and B/C/S.
[The witness entered court]
MR. NICE: We've managed to get most of them -- to have draft translations. There may be one or two items where the draft translation isn't available. I may be seeking some indulgence there, but it will be very limited.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
WITNESS: SABIT KADRIU
[Witness answered through interpreter]
MR. NICE: Would the usher just take this sheet of paper for the ELMO. I'll, in the future, have them typed up, I hope. Examined by Mr. Nice:
Q. Is your name Sabit Kadriu?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Kadriu, I'm going to ask you a series of questions to which I hope very short yes or no answers will be appropriate so that we can deal with your background swiftly. 1609
MR. NICE: It may be convenient if the Chamber has before it the map which shows Vushtrri or Vucitrn. It's coming up.
Q. But indeed, are you now 41 years old, a Kosovo Albanian Muslim?
A. Yes.
Q. Having --
A. Yes.
Q. Having lived most of your life in Brusnik in the municipality of Vucitrn, with your parents and nine siblings?
A. Yes.
Q. Has any member of your family been involved with the KLA?
A. Yes, one of them.
Q. Who?
A. Kemajl, who studied in Tirana. After he finished his studies, he wasn't able to return. He was involved there in Tirana.
Q. Did you, in 1990, become a member of the Council for Human Rights in Vucitrn?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you become its president?
A. Yes, I was its president, the president of the Council of Human Rights.
Q. And have you more recently worked as assistant to the president of the municipality?
A. Yes.
Q. And as a result of that, did you cease your work for the Council for Human Rights? 1610
A. Yes.
Q. Your own educational background is that you were at Pristina University between 1979 and 1984?
A. That's correct.
Q. May we look, please, now very briefly at map 10 of Exhibit 4 so we can begin to familiarise ourselves with the relevant geography. Vucitrn in North Kosovo is shown in the centre of the map. Your village --
A. Yes.
Q. -- of Brusnik is south-west. Just point it out, please, with the pointer. It's not on the screen maybe. Yes, it is. Yes.
A. That's where it is.
Q. Thank you very much. You'll find that you'll be being asked to point to things on the map. You can probably do it from the seated position if it's more comfortable to you.
Mr. Kadriu, I want you to deal with this extremely briefly. It's the last paragraph on page 1. Just yes or no. Was there a memorandum believed to have been published by members of the Academy of Arts and Science of two people, Garasanin and Cubrilovic, a long time ago now, in the 1930s?
JUDGE MAY: I think unless anyone wants to ask --
A. Yes.
JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... assist us.
MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. I was going to leave it on the basis is that although the witness may find it significant, he can answer questions if asked -- 1611
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. NICE: -- and move straight on, because I then want to come to 1981.
Q. And again briefly, in 1981, was there an encyclopedia of the history of the peoples of Yugoslavia published and was that a document thought by some to be significant in its - just yes or no - in its reflection of Albanian interests?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. In March or April of 1981, were there student protests?
A. Yes, there were protests and demonstrations, because of the situation that was created --
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May.
JUDGE MAY: There's an interruption. Yes.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a comment to make. These are things for expert witnesses. This witness cannot speak about matters which are within the realm of expert witnesses, and I think we would be going along the wrong road following this route.
JUDGE MAY: He said nothing about this. He's merely referred to some demonstrations by way, as I understand it, of background, and no more. He's not giving expert evidence at all.
Yes, Mr. Nice.
MR. NICE:
Q. Were you involved in those demonstrations yourself?
A. I was involved because of the dissatisfaction that was created by 1612 the Yugoslavia Encyclopedia that was published then. My people -- which was the third from the point of size --
Q. Mr. Kadriu, it's difficult, I know, especially when observations are made about your evidence. For the time being, if we can deal with things by yes/no answers, we'll move on swiftly, and you can always answer further questions.
You were involved in student protests. Two other questions, just absolutely in summary: What happened to people who were protesting? What were the consequences for some of them?
A. In these demonstrations, we did not demand anything other than Kosovo to be a republic, with a similar status to the other republics of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And the protests continued on the 26th of March and 1st and 2nd of April, and they ended up with mistreatment and, in some cases, killings of those who participated.
Q. And who, what group or organisation, was controlling or trying to suppress, or whatever it was, these protests?
A. It was the Yugoslav government who had engaged all the state apparatus in Kosovo, including other assisting forces from Serbia and the rest of Yugoslavia.
Q. Were troops involved?
A. It was mainly special units, but on certain cases there were certain failed moves on the part of the Yugoslav army.
Q. Thank you. Did you return from --
A. Reinforced moves.
Q. Did you return from student life to your home village of Brusnik? 1613 BLANK PAGE 1614
A. After I finished my studies, I returned to my village.
Q. Did you have difficulties finding work at that time? Just yes or no.
A. Yes, I had difficulties.
Q. Did you do your military service between 1987 and 1988?
A. Yes.
Q. Turning again to Brusnik, where you eventually gained work as an Albanian teacher in the Vushtrri school in December 1988 --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the ethnic composition of that school being how many Albanian and how many Serbian students, approximately?
A. There were about 2.700 pupils, students, of which about 250 were Serbian, of Serbian nationality.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's time for the adjournment. Speaking for myself, I should say that as far as the accused and the amici are concerned, that any cross-examination about events 20 years ago, to which this witness has referred, will be limited. The relevance of these events is extremely limited, as far as this trial is concerned, as far as I can see, and speaking for myself, cross-examination will also be limited. Yes. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.
--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
MR. NICE:
Q. Mr. Kadriu, with the change in the status of Kosovo's autonomy in 1615 1989, or thereabouts, was there a movement of young Kosovar Albanians that you became aware of?
A. Yes. There was all-popular movement, movement joined by the minors, the people, the students, towards Pristina, to voice their discontent, which was great, very great.
Q. My question was unhelpfully asked. My fault. Was there also any population movement, one way or the other, or in perhaps two ways, that you became aware of?
A. Yes. There was a major movement of the population from Pristina to Mitrovica. All the people rose to their feet out of their discontent resulting from the amendment of the constitution of Kosova. The students in their township, the people at large, they were all moving towards Pristina.
Q. Was there -- I've been told that I'm jumping too quickly in at the end of questions, and I will try and slow down. Was there any movement of Serbs in all within Kosovo that you became aware of?
A. During that time - in Vushtrri I'm talking about, in Prelluzhe village - because of this discontent, and in order for it to stop, the Serb population of the village had the reason and the Albanian -- and had driven out the Albanian students out of the school. I think that was the first sign of separating the Albanian students from the Serb students.
Q. Thank you for that. And as a matter of fact, where did most of the relocated students from Prelluzhe go?
A. Albanian students who were driven out of their school had to have their lessons in Stanovci i Poshtem school. 1616
MR. NICE: Your Honour, Prelluzhe can be seen on the same map, slightly to the south and east of the witness's village.
Q. Going back to the question of population movements in general, was there any movement into Kosovo of Serbs at any time, or at about this time, of which you were aware?
A. During 1987 to 1989, I was a soldier. I was doing my military service. And I remember very well when the accused came to power, there were Serb movements, not only in Prelluzhe, but also in other towns of Kosova. A very extensive movement was under way, during which women were instrumentalised [as interpreted], demanded the resignation of Fadil Hoxha. I think it was 1987, 1989 -- 1988, sorry.
Q. Finally on this, because I don't want to take too long on it: Do you remember any movements in relation to Velikoreke, which is a village the Court can find south and east or east of Brusnik, on the other side of the railway track?
A. During this time, but especially after the wars in Croatia and in Bosnia, but even earlier, a village had started to be built, with all the necessary town-planning facilities, in Velikoreke, and in this village, the population which had left Croatia and Bosnia were settled in this village with the purpose of, I think, changing the ethnic structure of the population.
Q. Was there an incident at a school or schools involving gas, apparently? If so, can you give us a date and then tell us about the incident, but only in a couple of sentences.
A. Yes, there was. It happened in 1990. I think it was April. I'm 1617 not very sure about the date. At that time, our students were poisoned. There were over 250 students - 253, actually - who were poisoned with a poisonous gas which was used in our school and in other schools of Kosova. This was public knowledge. You could find it in all information media.
Q. At that time, were Albanian and Serbian students attending school at the same times or was there some segregation in the time at which they attended?
A. No. At that time, the principal was a Serb. The Serb students had their lessons in the morning, and only in one part of the school. But in the morning. And in the afternoon, parallel with it, there were the Albanian students who had their -- who went to their classes.
MR. NICE: Your Honours, the document referred to, SK1, for the purposes of the summary is a document that has not been translated. It is a document that deals with this. It is available for inspection if anyone wants to see it. I move on to the Council for Human Rights.
Q. You've told us about that. Was it formed in 1990? We know about your position. How many members in Vushtrri did it have?
A. At the outset, there were 77 members of the local branch of Human Rights Council of Vushtrri. But later, because of fear and reprisals, the number started to reduce.
Q. What was the purpose and function of the council in Vushtrri?
A. The purpose and the functions of this council in Vushtrri was to make public -- to report on the violence, reprisals that were being committed after the deprivation of Kosova's autonomy by the Yugoslav 1618 government.
Q. And to do so, did you conduct inquiries and receive information from others on a regular basis?
A. I'm not clear about the question. Can I have it repeated, please?
Q. Did you receive reports about human rights violations on a regular basis?
A. Yes, I did, on a regular basis, because our representatives who were spread out in villages and in towns collected information and then they reported them to Pristina, to the central branch of the Human Rights Freedoms Council.
Q. Were you able to record and deal with any violations of the human rights of Serbs? If not, why not?
A. At that time, there were no cases of violence exerted against Serbs. However, in some cases, we have taken note of those cases and have reported them to the Council on Human Rights and Freedoms. In some cases, however, we were unable to do so because Serb police forces did not let us go near to the site of the crime or the event and find out what happened. So we did it in semi-unlawful way, I would say, or illegal way.
Q. Moving on to the end of 1990. At the end of 1990, were Albanian schoolteachers being paid? If not, explain how it came about.
A. At the end of 1990, Albanian teachers stopped to be paid. In this case, we demanded to meet the principal, Slobodan Doknic, and wanted to find out why they were not paid. At the beginning, he said that, "You will not be paid because you do not recognise Serbia as your own state." 1619 We went again another time, taking with us a senior professor and met with the principal again, and he answered us that this was the order he had been given and he had to obey the orders coming from higher institutions.
Q. Slobodan Doknic later became mayor and we will refer to him later in your evidence; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. In 1991, was there any joint education of students or was there segregation?
A. In September 1991, we went to school as usual, that is, on the 1st of September. But the principal, Slobodan Doknic, had asked one of the guards to close the door, and he told us that, "This is no longer going to be your school." We tried to enter, but they didn't let us. And as of that day, we started our protest to ask for our school. We held a protest on the 1st and the 2nd, and then on the 13th of that September. The protests were so large, so massive that even the parents of the students participated in them, and they asked for the return of the school facility which they themselves have contributed to building.
Q. I think my mistake. I allowed you to jump over one topic which I'll touch on very lightly. Do you remember anything happening about the teaching and facilities at school in either March 1991 or May of 1991? Deal with it briefly.
A. We were forced to have our lessons in houses, which we called houses schools, in order for our students to be able to get education, because living and -- in the middle of Europe, we considered it a tragedy to be deprived of education. But it was a time that the education primary 1620 school was suspended. I don't remember the exact date, but it was so for a couple of months.
Q. Thank you. Then returning to the September demonstrations, just yes or no to this: Were the police involved in these demonstrations at all, or in controlling them?
A. If you mean the 22nd of September demonstration?
Q. Yes, or the one that I think you've mentioned on the 13th.
A. Up to -- yes. On the 13th of September, that's true. We organised a large-scale protest with the participation of students and of parents. This protest was wiped out by police through violence. They used violence against both the students and the parents as well as against our -- us as teachers who were -- many of them were mistreated, and I have evidence to prove that.
Q. Were you yourself injured in any way?
A. Yes. I was beaten up by the police, together with some other colleagues of mine. Because the police interfered so brutally that the students were unable to leave all at once, so we put up a protection fence in front of the students, and they kept beating us on our backs, we teachers who tried to protect the students.
Q. Thank you. Moving ahead, you've already told us effectively and in summary about the parallel school system. Was that run openly or covertly?
A. We held it openly, but they considered it as if we were holding it in secret.
Q. What happened to teachers as a result of the establishment of this 1621 parallel school system?
A. They resorted to unprecedented violence. I cannot express here what kind of violence they used against teachers and students. We did work very hard for the students to continue to have their lessons, but the police kept interfering very frequently up until 1997. Often teachers were arrested, detained, and then tried. Some of them have even went to prison.
Q. You yourself, were you arrested? If so, on how many occasions?
A. I remember I was arrested over seven times and sentenced to Mitrovica prison.
Q. For how long and for what alleged offence?
A. I was sentenced to 20 days. Usually the accusations, the charges, were so absurd that you cannot imagine. We were accused, for example, as if we were holding illegal lessons. This is what the charge read. I used to have all those documents, but unfortunately they got burned during the war. And then we were sent to the Court. Sometimes we were sentenced to prison. Sometimes we had to pay a ransom and then we could leave if we were sentenced to 15 days or under 15 days.
Q. As a matter for record, for our records, can you tell us the month and year upon which you were imprisoned for 20 days?
A. Yes, I can. It was May. I'm sorry, I can't remember the date.
Q. Very well. Was there another incident where certificates had been issued to the students in the parallel system which bore the words "Republic of Kosovo" on the letterhead?
A. We were obliged to do that. We wrote our own certificates which 1622 BLANK PAGE 1623 we gave to the students to certificate their performance in school. Those certificates -- if the students were caught having these certificates on them, then they were subjected to violence. They might even be detained in police stations. I myself was arrested for that.
Q. What happened to you when you were arrested in respect of those certificates? And my apologies for cutting off your answer.
A. I remember I was arrested along with Professor Xhafer Merovci. He taught French. They arrested us in front of our students, who felt very sad seeing us being taken away by the police.
When we were in the police, they started to interrogate us. "Look what you are doing. You are issuing certificates on which you write `Republic of Kosova.'" Then they started to offend us and to beat us up. I will never forget that moment. They beat me on -- struck me with a chair on my back. One held me and the other bit me. Even the other professor was mistreated. And on the next day, even it was Saturday, they took us to the court and the court sentenced us.
Q. Moving on from your work as a teacher and focusing on your work for the Council of Human Rights, did you suffer any intervention by the police in respect of your work for the Council of Human Rights?
A. Yes. As I said, even earlier, in Vushtrri at least, we operated almost semi-illegally because we were prosecuted as a result of our activity. In 1997, we -- some of the activists were arrested. I was one of them too.
Q. Whereabouts were you when you were arrested and what happened to you after your arrest? 1624
A. We were in a cafeteria, in the coffee-shop of the city. It was Friday, if I remember correctly. Large police forces surrounded us. We were drinking a tea. It is a traditional drink in our town. They took us with them. They took us to the police. And then there in the police, they started to interrogate and investigate us, and then me and a colleague, who was forced to leave Kosova later and he is to this day in Switzerland, they sent us for three days to the secret service of Yugoslavia where we were interrogated because of our activity.
Q. And indeed -- indeed, which police had arrested you in the first place?
A. We were arrested by the usual police in uniforms. I remember that at the head of that expedition was the Deputy of the Chief of Police Chief, Luisa Simic [phoen].
Q. But the people by whom you were interrogated were which police force?
A. The people who interrogated us, who took it over from the civilian police, let's say, to the secret police, one of them was called Dusan Janic. He was a chief police, secret police, and he forced us to speak about the work in the context of the Council for Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms.
Q. By that time, had your council made contact with people from other countries who were interested in human rights violations?
A. Yes. We had frequent contacts because it was in the general interest to exchange information. And in some cases, our villages border other villages of our communes, so we had to exchange information about 1625 what was happening in every of these communes.
Q. Did the secret police have any knowledge or appear to have any knowledge of these contacts of yours with people from other countries?
A. We were taken to the secret police by Janic, he was the chief of the secret police, he knew some things because he had asked us in 1995 to give him, or he had taken away from us a document at that time, and he had an idea of our work.
Q. The KLA, so far as you were concerned, when did you first hear about it as a body?
A. If I am right, it was 1991, when, for the first time, through some newspapers, I heard about the creation of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
Q. When, as you understood it, was it first an organised body or force?
A. At the beginning, I think, it was not an organised body, as such. For the first time, it appeared in November. I don't remember the exact date. In November, it was, of the last years before the war it came out publicly as the Kosovo Liberation Army.
Q. Did it in some period before the war start the process of controlling areas?
A. In fact, the searches of the houses of Albanians started as early as 1991, until the war broke out. There were no Albanian homes that were not searched or ransacked, under the pretext of arms control, and this control was followed by violence, prosecution, arrest, detention in police station sometimes. In my capacity as chairman of this council, I remember that in one day, MUP has asked up to -- interrogated up to 17, 18 people. 1626
Q. Yes. That doesn't quite answer the question, which was: As a result of all these things, or for whatever reason, did the Kosovo Liberation Army start to control some areas some period of time before the war?
A. The KLA started, by the end of -- the beginning of 1998, started to expand its activity in Drenica region.
Q. Thank you very much.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, we are now going to move to a topic that is not covered by a map presently before you. It's a map that didn't get admitted at the stage when many of the maps were admitted. It's the map of Srbica or Skenderaj municipality. It can either simply take the next exhibit number, or, were you to want it to stay collected with the other maps, then it could become map 11 of Exhibit 4. I'm entirely in the Court's hands.
JUDGE MAY: It's more convenient if it goes into the other maps rather than has a separate number.
MR. NICE: I would respectfully agree. So may the witness then have this map.
While they're being distributed, I should say, I know that the amici have asked for a map, and I happen to know that there's a rather convenient booklet road map of Kosovo that's published in Kosovo, and I made arrangements to have them brought up, got enough copies of them for everyone to have a version in Court. I will try and put that in hand, because I think it will probably be helpful. It's rather a convenient size and it's not too big and it's got a good index. The Skenderaj map 1627 fits on, really, south-west of the Vucitrn map that we've been looking at thus far, just directly south. I'll get the witness to tell us.
Q. I want you, please, Mr. Kadriu, to tell us about an event that happened at Cirez and Likosane. I gather that for the -- I'm sorry to interrupt. I gather that, for the amici, the reference to the map is K8, if that will help.
Back to you, Mr. Kadriu. I want you to help us with something that happened at Cirez and Likosane and on the map we've just got before us for Skenderaj or Srbica, can we find Cirez and Likosane on the right-hand side, the eastern part of the map, and pretty well immediately above the legend.
JUDGE MAY: Which legend?
MR. NICE: The legend on the bottom right-hand corner. Immediately above the legend. Go up from that road. You come to Likosane. It's hard to see. And then above that, you have Cirez.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Got it.
A. Yes, I found it. You can see Cirez here and Likoshan, two adjoining villages. But the letters are very small. It is difficult to read them.
MR. NICE:
Q. And is this south or south-east or south-west of where you live?
A. The villages lie south-west of my village, and we are divided from them by Bjeshka e Cicavica. But as the crow flies, we are very close.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think an overall map will prove increasingly valuable, and I'll try and get these road atlases, as they 1628 are, up here as soon as I can.
Q. Mr. Kadriu, was there an incident at Cirez and Likosane sometime in February 1998? And if yes, can you give us the date?
A. Yes, there was an incident. If I remember well, it was the end of February. It must have been 28th of February. In the morning of that date - hopefully I am not wrong about the date - we heard fire shots coming from heavy machine-guns, artillery fire, from the direction of the village of Cirez. Someone came - I was sleeping - and told me that from the direction of Cirez and Likoshan, fire shots are being heard. When I went out, they were very distinct. They were heard not only in our village but also in the Vushtrri town, which is a couple of kilometres away from these villages. They were heard. They came mainly from light anti-aircraft artillery, but also other kinds of fire, artillery fire.
Q. What did you do, where did you go, who with? Tell us briefly.
A. Once we heard the shots, since I was a human rights activist, I was eager to know what was happening. With a brother of mine, we went in that direction. Once we arrived in Dubofc village, we met some people who managed to flee. They were mainly family people.
Q. On the same map, Dubovac is immediately above Cirez but the other side of a roadway, I think -- or no, maybe a river, but a little bit further up.
A. [Indicates]
Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. So you went to Dubovac with your brother. Who did you then find at that village?
A. Once we arrived in Dubofc, we met some residents of those villages 1629 who had managed to flee. Not only inhabitants from that village, but also from surrounding village. They told us that the Yugoslav troops had surrounded these villages, especially Cirez and Likoshan, but other troops were from the direction of Cirez, and Dukoshan [as interpreted] was -- were moving in the direction. A war had taken place, they told us, but they didn't know what exactly happened.
Q. Pause. What troops were said to be involved? What groups and what troops?
A. It was clear that military troops were involved. They were in the rear, because we could see the movements of military troops all around. But mainly there were police forces that I think came to the rescue of the local forces from Serbia.
Q. Police and troops, was that something you ever saw on other occasions in the course of the history you're going to tell us about?
A. I may tell you that during this action in Cirez and Likoshan, there were also two helicopters which also shot and fired, but I can testify to the participation of the army in other actions, when, in 1998, 22nd of September, the region of Cicavica --
Q. I'm going to come to that later, and I just wanted to ask you a general question: If, as you tell us and as you were told or saw yourself, the police and the army were together in this operation, was that the only occasion you were aware of the police and army operating together, or were there other occasions?
A. In most of the cases of great interventions, these were done in a coordinated way between the army and the police forces, as the case was on 1630 the 22nd of September and in Prekaz and other cases.
Q. Before we move from the 28th of February, if it was, were there any reported Serbian deaths coming to you on this occasion?
A. Yes. I remember that it was somewhere in Drenica, in a village there, that the police forces had begun to search the house of a person whose name I don't know because they are distant villages. When they went there, they used violence, and the owner, in self-defence, shot back at the Serbian forces. But I can't tell you if there were any casualties.
Q. Very well. The following day, the day after your first visit to Dubovac village, did you go back the day after; and if so, where to, what did you see? Remember, try and keep it very concise for the learned Judges.
A. Yes. I wanted to go there myself and find out what happened, because the day earlier I was not very clear about what had really happened. But in my home, an activist of the humanitarian fund, a lady, whose seat was in Pristina - but the centre was in Belgrade, the local seat was in Pristina - came to me.
Q. I'm going to stop you. It's not your fault, because it's a new experience, I think, to give evidence, Mr. Kadriu. But it's going to save time if you listen to the question. Where did you go and what did you see on that following day? Just tell us.
A. Yes, we went together there. We visited Cirez and Likoshan villages. We saw there were several casualties from the Sejdiu family. There were four killed, if I'm not mistaken. Two others were killed from the Cirez village. In Likoshan too, there were 12, not only casualties, 1631 BLANK PAGE 1632 but people who were massacred, and it's from the Ahmeti family. You may remember that.
Q. Now, as to these two families that suffered loss, and maybe one or two others, did you see all the bodies yourself?
A. Yes. I remember that at the beginning I visited the Sejdiu family, and I paid homage to those students who were killed. And not far from that house, I went to the family of Rukije, and the woman was shot on her head by a machine-gun operated from a tank. She was observing from the first floor of a house, and half of her skull was destroyed. Later on, after the bodies of the Ahmeti family were taken away by the police, we also saw those bodies and we saw that they were massacred, and we buried them in the middle of the Cirez and Likoshan villages.
Q. How many members of the Ahmeti family was it?
A. Twelve members of the Ahmeti family, I think. It was only the women who had survived. The rest of the Ahmeti family, the males, with the exception of one of the sons who was working abroad, all the rest were executed, were shot. Just one of them survived, one of the males survived.
Q. Of all the people you've now spoken of, was any of them in any form of uniform at the time that you saw their bodies? Just yes or no.
A. No. At that time, I didn't know of any.
Q. And at that time that you saw them, was there any evidence of any of them being armed, weapons around them or anything of that sort?
A. No. The burial, the funeral was quite grand with the attendance of people from all parts of Kosova, but there were also representatives of 1633 the NGOs who were there. We took several pictures, and we passed all the accompanying reports to the Pristina headquarters, and some people from other municipalities joined me in producing the pictures and we took all those pictures to the headquarters in Pristina.
Q. Now, in the Ahmeti compound, as well as seeing some dead bodies straight away on your visit, did you also visit a scene where there was a large amount of blood and some other human remains?
A. When we went together with the member of the humanitarian fund, we saw the scene where the people -- the site where the people were executed. There were some bushes there, and the people were driven out of their homes and at that very site they were shot. We could clear see the blood. And not only us, everybody could see it. On several occasions we saw limbs, we saw jaws, and it was quite clear that the terror had continued all through the night. And --
Q. Again, with brevity, by the time of your arrival, had some of the bodies already been removed to the Pristina hospital?
A. The bodies, it's true. We didn't find the bodies there because they were taken to the Pristina hospital.
Q. Did you subsequently see the bodies, and can you explain something of the condition in which you found them or you saw them when you did see them?
A. I remember that they reached the place in lorries, and as far as I remember, some of the relatives of the Ahmeti family were interested to take the bodies from the hospital in Pristina, and they were brought there eventually. So we had to act quickly to take pictures of the bodies, and 1634 we noticed that most of the bodies were mutilated. They were in a terrible state. Their genital organs were cut off. And you can see this in the pictures which are now with the Council for Human Rights in Pristina.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, those we don't have here. If anybody wants them, we can seek to obtain them.
Q. Can I move on to an incident a little later on in the same month or thereabouts, perhaps at the same time, concerning the Jasharis? Can you tell us about that, please.
A. Several days later, in the same way, in the morning, it was the Jashari family living in Prekaz. Their family home was surrounded, and in the same way, in the morning, we heard gunshots directed towards that house. As we learned later, there were heavy machine-guns, explosions. And we realised that somewhere something was going on --
Q. Pause.
A. -- and that the house was surrounded by the Serb forces.
Q. Sorry. Pause, please. Is Prekaz north-east of Skenderaj on the map?
A. [Indicates]
Q. Thank you.
A. [No translation]
Q. Thank you. So that's south-west of where you were.
A. This is where Prekaz is.
Q. You brought us to the account you had received of the house being surrounded by Serb forces. We can take this comparatively briefly. How 1635 many dead people were found there?
A. Together with some other activists from Vushtrri, we went there a day or two after the incident had happened when the police forces brought the bodies of the people who were executed in the most savage way at a site where building material was being sold, and that was between Skenderaj and Polac villages, and there we saw the bodies on display. And we helped our colleagues from Skenderaj to take the pictures of these bodies. All of them had been executed, women, girls, men. Some of them were also mutilated, massacred.
I had some of these, but some of the material was burned together with my house. But the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms in Pristina has those pictures.
Q. Before we turn to survivors, were there -- are there some members of the Jashari family yet unaccounted for? If so, how many?
A. Yes. In addition to the bodies that were on display, I don't know of the fate of the members of the Sadik Jashari family. Some of the relatives and members of the family of Sadik Jashari went to the police station in Mitrovica because Skenderaj is part of Mitrovica. They asked the police to help, to help them and come closer to the region to find out about the fate of the rest of the Sadik Jashari family. And they went to the scene of the incident. And I'm talking always on the basis of what an eyewitness told me, but the eyewitness was not allowed to go to the very scene of the incident to see for himself what had happened. And to this day, we don't know what has happened to some of the members of the Sadik Jashari family. 1636
Q. How many members then unaccounted for, and can you also tell us how many bodies altogether were found at the scene by you as a result of this massacre?
A. In Prekaz, there are open graves for some, because people hope that one day they will be returned to be buried there. But it seems like there were some -- some about 60 bodies on display at the site I mentioned where building material was being sold. I can't know -- I can't remember exactly what the figure was.
Q. Very well. As a result of these events or perhaps for some other reason, did people move from the Drenica area?
A. Yes. There was mass movement of the people from the Drenica area. Most of them were coming towards Vushtrri because it was still a safer place. And the road is -- the road passes by the villages where my village is, and we saw a considerable number of people who settled in the Vushtrri municipality, and there we registered the population who was displaced by this action taken against the village of Prekaz and the surrounding villages.
Q. Was a register created for refugees and are you in a position to produce that as an exhibit? A copy of it, I think.
A. At that time, the Red Cross headquarters was interested about the numbers because we could not do everything ourselves. So a list was compiled by that association, and they were telling us about the numbers of the people who had settled there, but that was a very small list because not everybody was listed. And that is a document which shows just the beginning of the displacement of the people from their own villages, 1637 and it was a difficult operation to register every single individual who was leaving their homes due to the repression and the reprisals.
MR. NICE: Your Honours, the document produced to us by the witness has handwriting on the back. I haven't had that draft translated. I don't think it's relevant. But if the -- the draft translation is now coming round. If the original document can be laid shortly on the ELMO so that people can see it on the television screens, then when that's been done, if the -- if the original could then go to the witness and a draft translation could go onto the television -- onto the overhead projector.
So if you could hand that document now, please, to the witness and put the draft translation on the overhead projector.
Q. Is the document that's being displayed, headed as the "Register of the number of Albanian refugees sheltered in the municipality of Vushtrri after the Serb police - military massacre in Drenica," and then by number, according to village, is there a list of the number of refugees? Is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct. The Red Cross was involved in registering the displaced people, but it was not possible to register every single individual because the movement of the -- the moving around was difficult because there was an increased number of forces in the area. This is just a sample of the big, large numbers that were displaced. And here we have the name of Dr. Ismet Shaqiri who was the president of this association who was providing me with information. And I'm sorry that this kind of material was burned and has disappeared. 1638
Q. But in any event, when we look at the name of the village or city and the number of refugees, are we looking at the village in which the refugees ended up or are we looking at the village from which the refugees came? It's pretty obvious that Vushtrri is the village where they ended up. Is that correct?
A. Yes. Vushtrri is the town, and they have also settled in the villages around Vushtrri. They were part of the Vushtrri municipality, starting from the Oshlan village and the rest. That is where they had settled and taken shelter.
Q. Thank you.
A. And at the end of the list there is a total number of the people who were evacuated, who had left their homes.
Q. We can move on --
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
MR. NICE: Yes.
JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the distance from Drenica to Vushtrri where refuge was taken?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Prekaz, the village of Prekaz, to Vushtrri, it's about 16, 17 kilometres.
JUDGE MAY: Drenica -- so we can follow it, Drenica is a region, is it, or an area? Is that right?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's how we know the region. It's region of Drenica. That's how we know it.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Why were they able to take refuge in Vushtrri?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people with children, 1639 there were women, there were people who were sick, ill. They had left their homes, and that is the reason why we offered shelter to them and all we had. And that was normal to do with people who had -- who were forced to leave their houses because of the shelling from the artillery and so on.
JUDGE ROBINSON: There was no attack on Vushtrri?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, there was no attacks against Vushtrri.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
MR. NICE:
Q. If we move on a little, we know that your village was close to Vushtrri. We know where it is. In the spring of 1998, did you become aware of any military presence in the area of your village?
A. In 1998, I remember about -- there was -- I'm not sure about the exact date, but Serb military troops came and set up camp in our village. It's in a forested area. They set up camp there, and they started to deploy from the barracks of Vushtrri to our village.
MR. NICE: Before I move on, can I ask that the previous document be given an exhibit number.
THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 32.
MR. NICE:
Q. June, July of 1998, was there a conflict in the same area of Drenica between the KLA and the Serb forces?
A. Yes. It's true that at that point, the conflict was expanding and there was an armed conflict between the forces of the KLA and the Serb 1640 forces. The artillery fire could be heard several -- from several kilometres away, from Stavalj to Vushtrri. It's many, many kilometres away. I don't know exactly how many. There was a very severe conflict which was accompanied by the displacement of the population there.
Q. And we could possibly ultimately mark it on our maps, but could you just tell us, was the conflict, related to your village, to the north, south, east, or west?
A. In our village, as soon as the military forces settled, deployed there, a few days after that, after they had taken firm hold of the area, they started shelling the Cicavica region. The shelling was towards the Cicavica region, and that was two, three times a day. And the shellings were flying over our village, and our houses are located in that area. And they fell, the shells fell somewhere towards Drenica. It was difficult to establish exactly where they fell.
Q. Now, the Cicavica locality, that was a mountainous locality, I think. Yes?
A. It's a mountain. It's a mountainous area which stretches south towards the north-west.
Q. Can you indicate on either of the maps we've got where this mountainous area is? If you can't, don't guess, but if you can, please help us. You have available to you the Vucitrn municipality and also the Skenderaj map.
A. That is the area, the region where the Cicavica area stretches.
Q. As a result of this activity, were there -- was there a flow of refugees? 1641
A. Yes. In this case we had the largest displacement of people, the largest-scaled displacement of people. It was residents of the villages of the Drenica region, and they started to move towards Vushtrri, and the influx was huge. And during that period, there were deaths as well. There was an eight-month-old child, and the child was buried in our village, and that was because of the high temperatures, because of dust, and the child died as soon as it arrived in the village that night.
Q. Roughly, if you are able to estimate, how many people were displaced in the course of this movement?
A. The movement from the region of Drenica was not only towards Vushtrri, because Vushtrri did not have enough space for all that, and there was movement towards Pristina too. And I can say that. There was a figure of 30.000 to 40.000 people which was said to have left their own houses and homes in the villages, thereabouts, and that was a figure which was being quoted by the media.
JUDGE MAY: If that's a convenient moment, there's something I want to deal with.
MR. NICE: Certainly.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, would you be back tomorrow, please. We've got to adjourn now. Would you be back tomorrow at 9.00 to continue your evidence. Would you remember in this adjournment, and any others there may be, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that includes members of the Prosecution team.
Before we adjourn, there's one matter I want to deal with, and it's this: It's the application made by the accused for provisional 1642 release. A written decision is issued today on that subject. The Trial Chamber refuses the application, summarising what is said. And this isn't the decision, but merely a summary of it. The decision is the written decision.
The Trial Chamber has in mind that the reason given by the accused for requesting provisional release is that it would enable him adequately to prepare for and conduct his own defence. That, of course, is part of his right for a fair trial, that is, that he has adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence. The Trial Chamber recognises difficulties which he may face in the preparation of his own defence but considers that this right can be safeguarded by means other than provisional release. The trial has already commenced, and the Trial Chamber is not satisfied that, if he were released, he would continue to appear for trial and it would not pose a danger to any victim, witness, or others. For those reasons, the application is dismissed.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, just before you rise, there is a video that this witness will refer to tomorrow. It's a video that's been looked at already in part. It's quite a long video and I have no intention of playing all of it, or anything like. It may help the Chamber and the accused and the amici if I identify the video in case any of the parties wish to preview it. It's already an exhibit. It's Exhibit 13. My intention tomorrow, seeing how we go for time, would be to get the booth to run simply to a number of designated points in the video and to take it very briefly.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. 9.00 tomorrow, please. 1643
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of March, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.