¹⁷³⁶

Friday, 8 March 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me start off by staying that this marathon testimony that we have been hearing for two days now is the best confirmation of my warning to the public about the main tactical movement on the part of the Prosecution as regards the reversal of thesis or turning things upside down.

JUDGE MAY: Question for the witness. What is your question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't you worry.

WITNESS: SABIT KADRIU [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] First of all, what Council for Human Rights are we talking about? Whose council is it? Whose Council for Human Rights?

A. The Council for Human Rights and Freedoms was set up in the 1990s with the purpose of investigating the violence and terror perpetrated by Serb police and army against the Albanian population. It also investigated violence in general. It was an association of a humanitarian character. I think that you must know that this council was registered then at the Yugoslav Federation and it had its own seal, which I think was issued by Mr. Kambovski. I don't very well remember what office he had ¹⁷³⁷ then, but this council operated in a public manner in Prishtina.

Q. And who founded it?

A. The Council for Human Rights and Freedoms emerged as a necessity of the time. It was necessary to set it up as a result of violence and reprisals that follow the deprivation of autonomy.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, can I ask you to listen to the question and try and deal with that. The question was: Who set it up?

A. It was founded by a group of intellectuals, but there were others also who were honourable members of this council, but they were not Albanians.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And which intellectuals were these? A group of intellectuals. You and how many others?

A. It was not me who formed this council in Prishtina. The Council for Human Rights and Freedoms in Prishtina, it is a public fact when it was known -- it was transparent in the public currents, not only in Kosova, but also broad Kosova, I mean even beyond Yugoslavia.

Q. So it was founded by a group of Albanian intellectuals as their own organ; is that right? That's what you said, isn't it?

A. I didn't say that. I said that in addition to Albanians, there were others who were members of this council but who were not Albanians. Of course, the initiative came from Prishtina.

Q. In your testimony, you say what you heard allegedly as the result of the work of your council; is that right?

A. We carried out the duties of the Council of Human Rights and ¹⁷³⁸ Freedoms. We investigated cases of violence and reprisals committed by your police against the Albanian population of Kosova.

Q. All right. I think enough has been said about that. You said, when you started your testimony, that you were dissatisfied. You spoke about your dissatisfaction with the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia. Do you know that that encyclopedia was published by the lexicographical institute in Zagreb, in fact?

A. I'm sorry that at your insistence I was -- I mean, I was not allowed to talk here about this encyclopedia of 1938. You said I am not an expert on that, but I want to inform this Honourable Chamber that I read this memorandum and that we paid with our own blood, all of us, in Kosova. This memorandum drafted by Cubrilovic. It was a very highly chauvinistic one. And the Academy of Sciences and Arts, after the war, operated precisely having this notorious memorandum of 1938 as its basis. I would like to remind you all here that even prior --

JUDGE MAY: That's enough, Mr. Kadriu. We must get through the evidence.

Now, the next question, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that from Kosovo and Metohija, the president of the encyclopedic committee was your own man of letters, Esad Mekuli?

A. The encyclopedia created discontent among the students and intellectuals of Albania then.

JUDGE MAY: The question was, insofar as this is relevant, that Esad Mekuli was described as the president, I think, of the encyclopedia ¹⁷³⁹ committee. Now, do you know if that is right or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that. I only know that it gave rise to discontent because the Albanian population of Kosova were not given a deserved place in this encyclopedia.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And do you know who Esad Mekuli is?

A. Certainly, I knew who he was, because he had published collections of poems, and I used to read them. And I was educated in the humanitarian spirit that he preached through them.

Q. All right. He was the president of the encyclopedic committee for Kosovo and Metohija, and anybody could read about that. You said that you complained and that you asked to have a meeting with Bakalli. Do you remember that it was precisely Bakalli who said that the demonstrations were hostile? He termed them as being hostile himself?

A. We did ask to meet Mahmut Bakalli to discuss the situation that was created as a result of this encyclopedia and the violence and terror committed by the Serb police against the youths and students, but he didn't come. Probably he was afraid of you, of the Serb leadership in office then. He didn't come to discuss these issues with the students.

Q. How come Bakalli was afraid of me in 1981?

A. Not only in 1981, but the Albanian leadership of Kosova have never been free to operate on their own will. They had to toe your line all the time.

Q. And do you remember that all the political structures of the times in Kosovo and Metohija assessed the demonstrations as being hostile and an ¹⁷⁴⁰ act along the lines of Albanian nationalism and separatism? Do you remember that?

A. Not all of them, only some. Yes, they did characterise them in the terms you said because they were under communist dictate, as I said, which was led by Belgrade. It was the central committee then which decided how these protests should be described.

Q. Could you please answer my questions without going into lengthy explanations, because otherwise we're not going to be able to get through all this. I'm saying this because I do not wish to be blamed for taking up too much time myself.

You said that the demonstrations took on the slogan of "Kosovo Republic." So the social and economic motive for the demonstrations were rejected straight at the beginning. You said that economic backwardness and discrimination of Kosovo and that the slogan was "Kosovo Republic"; is that right?

A. All these, as well as discontent that was created right after the Second World War, when you imposed a state of siege in Drenica, all these forces obliged us to ask for a Republic of Kosova in the context of the then Yugoslav Federation, because we thought that we were the third people in terms of size in Yugoslavia, and we were not treated equally to the others. The Montenegrins are one-third in numbers compared to us, but they had their own republic, which we didn't. I think that would have been the best solution even for Yugoslavia then, because in this way democracy would be perfected. It would be an act of philanthropy, I think, to give our people equal rights to other peoples. ¹⁷⁴¹

Q. You mentioned just now the siege of Drenica after World War II. Do you know what kind of siege of Drenica that was, in fact? Just say "yes" or "no," "I do know" or "I don't know."

A. I do, pretty well.

Q. And if you know it pretty well, do you know that in that locality, the Drenica locality, after the Second World War, after the fall of fascism, for several years after that, in the forests, there were bands of balijas who were collaborating -- Balistas collaborating with the German occupiers and killing people, not only around Drenica but outside Drenica as well, wherever they could get hold of somebody and leave them headless? Do you remember that? Just say "yes" or "no," "it's right" or "it's not right."

A. I can't answer this question with a yes or a no. Please, I'd like -- I have the right to speak --

JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance of this is in the fact that the witness said a moment ago that an injustice had been done to the Albanian people because of the so-called siege of Drenica after the Second World War. Let me remind you that Drenica is the area around Srbica which they called Dukagjin, or rather, Drenica, and that an injustice occurred there. The truth is that part of the quisling formations who fought on the side of Hitler withdrew to the hills around that area, and for several years after that, the army made every effort to liquidate them. Therefore --

JUDGE MAY: As far -- stop for a moment. We have to try events in ¹⁷⁴² the 1990s, the late 1990s. Insofar as events 50 years before are relevant, we will be the judge of that. Now, enough has been said about this matter as far as this witness is concerned. We've heard his evidence, we've heard what you say about it. Now, let us move on and more closely approximate the time we're dealing with.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am exclusively dealing with that particular topic, and I did not ask a single question or raise a single matter that the witness himself did not bring up, so I don't think it is in order for you to warn me and caution me.

JUDGE MAY: No. I'm dealing with the trial as a whole and dealing with what's relevant. But let's move on.

No, don't make any comments. No. Let us -- just deal -- just kindly deal with the questions you are asked.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said that there should be a Kosovo Republic. Do you know that the Albanians have their original mother country, matrix state?

JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this? It's not going to assist us. No. Let's move on. Let's move on. Let's move on. He said that there was mention of a Kosovo Republic at these demonstrations.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He did not say that it was mentioned; he said it was the main goal of all the activities that were undertaken by them, and the secession of Kosovo from Yugoslavia, and seizing territory away from Yugoslavia and seizing territory away from Serbia. That is what it was about. ¹⁷⁴³

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And you said you were right because you were the third in size, as you say, the third ethnic group or nationality in Yugoslavia by virtue of size. Yesterday -- the day before yesterday, you said you were second in size. Today you say you were the third largest, but that's not true either. You come after the Serbs, the Croats, the Muslims and Slovenians, so you would be, in fact, by virtue of numbers, fifth in line. So you don't even operate with exact elementary figures.

JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The question is: Does he know about the fund for the underdeveloped, from which Kosovo and Metohija, for decades, was funded and received several times more resources and financial support than it created itself?

A. First, I didn't say that we wanted to secede from Yugoslavia but that we wanted to have a republic in the context of the Yugoslav Federation.

Regarding this fund, I would like to explain to you that this was an international fund for the development of Kosova since it was the most backward country in Europe. But you misused even the international funds granted by international organisations for Kosova. It was the 1970s, I think. I was young then, but I know it was an international fund for the development of Kosova then.

Q. I can't even have a comment to something as ludicrous as that. There was a fund for the development of the insufficiently developed ¹⁷⁴⁴ areas, a Yugoslav fund --

JUDGE MAY: We've heard his response and we can hear any evidence which you wish to call about it. Now, let us more closely approach the events in this indictment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am talking about what the witness spoke of, and I should like to ask you not to give me instructions, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You were asked the following: Did you deal with the violation of human rights against the Serbs? And you were asked this by the Prosecutor, and your answer was that there was no violation of Serb human rights and that there was no violence against Serbs in Kosovo, when asked whether there was any violence against Serbs. Now, we don't have to ascertain what you said. We all heard it.

What I'm asking you about is the following: Do you know about the violence against the Serbs over the past 20 years? Let me be more precise and specific. Do you know about the killings and burnings and rapes and cutting down orchards, the destruction of churches, the digging up of cemeteries and graves and beatings up, all the other kinds of violence that have taken place these past 20 years, from 1981, when you yourself began to be in politics, the violence against the Serbs? And over 40.000 of these Serbs --

JUDGE MAY: Now, a question. Just a moment. Let me deal with this. You've asked a series of questions in one. The first question, Mr. Kadriu, is this: Were there violations of ^{1745 BLANK PAGE 1746} human rights against the Serbs during these 20 years?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there were, there were very few cases, extremely few, and the Council of Human Rights and Freedoms recorded them. However, things were made up because we didn't have an Albanian in power, and the power belonged to him, and the straight apparatus and the courts were in his hands. Everything was in his hands.

JUDGE MAY: The next question is: Was there violence against the Serbs? And the various forms of violence were alleged.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember any cases apart from cases that were manipulated by the Milosevic regime. I remember a case regarding a battle which was manipulated by the Serbian regime as a pretext to intervene in Kosova.

JUDGE MAY: It's also alleged that there was destruction of churches, the digging of cemeteries, cutting down of orchards. Is there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of such things. Power was in the hands of Milosevic. Who would have dared to do such things?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let me ask then before Milosevic, in the 1980s. Do you know about the -- those violences -- that violence, say, from 1980 to 1990? "Yes" or "no," "I do know" or "I don't know."

A. I do not know, because at that time, the Council for Human Rights didn't exist, and there was no violence.

Q. We usually count time from the days of Christ, Anno Domini, and ¹⁷⁴⁷ not the Council for Human Rights. But as you lived before the time of the Council of Human Rights, do you know how many inhabitants of Kosovo and Metohija under pressure, under violence from the Albanians had to leave the province? Do you know or do you not know?

A. They didn't migrate because of violence but because they had much better living conditions in Serbia than in Kosova. Kosova was the poorest place in Europe. They didn't have the conditions for Serbs to live there. Why shouldn't they go to Serbia? They sold their land at a very high price to Albanians, land which they obtained before World War II in the colonisation programme, and they bought land in Serbia at half the price of the land in Kosova.

Q. All right. I'm so happy that you know about the buying and selling of land and that you're well-versed in real estate, but I'm asking you, do you know how many Serbs had to leave in face of the violence and -- of the Albanians in those years? Do you know or do you not know?

A. I don't know because the state apparatus was a Yugoslav one. It wasn't ours. It didn't belong to the Albanians. Serbia always had an influence over Kosova and controlled everything. It's absurd to think that we had a state apparatus to expel people. The movement of people was free. It was within the Yugoslav Federation.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't need a dissertation. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You also claim -- right. We've cleared up that question, but we'll come back to them later on. But you also claim that from the 1980s ¹⁷⁴⁸ or perhaps the -- 1990, the Albanians were thrown out of schools, and I made a note of that here in my notes.

How many mixed classes were there? How many Albanian children went to school up until 1999? Do you have any idea about this?

A. The removal of Albanian students from school, the classes were not mixed. They were streamed and separate although in the same school, in the same school buildings. However, the removal of Albanian pupils from their schools took place in 1988, when you came to power with so much commotion and strong feelings. You reminded the Serbian people of those myths.

Q. All right. We'll never end this questioning if you take up so much time with your answers. We'll never get through it all if you answer in this way. So may I kindly ask you to give me yes or no answers or brief explanations.

Do you know about the number of students, according to the languages taught? So in Albania, tuition in Albanian and tuition in Serbian, up until the 24th of March, 1999, do you know how many students there were? I'm not talking about 1988 or God knows what year, but I'm talking about the year 1999, the beginning of 1999. Facts and figures. In Kosovo and Metohija, there was a total of, in Serbian, tuition in the Serb language in schools, a total of 45.279 students. That is students attending tuition in the Serbian language. And at that time --

JUDGE MAY: Stop there. Stop there. Mr. Milosevic, you rebuked the witness for taking up too much time. You're taking up time with these ¹⁷⁴⁹ questions. Now, what's the question for the witness? 1999, a total of 45.279 students attending tuition in the Serbian language. That's the point.

Do you know anything about that, Mr. Kadriu?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that is not my question.

Q. My question is whether he knows that at that same time, 235.881 students were studying in the Albanian language, at the beginning of 1999, that is, 235.881.

A. What time are you talking about? Excuse me.

Q. I'm talking about 1999. That is to say, on the eve of the war.

A. The Albanian students were expelled from their primary schools, high schools, and their university. They were thrown out of their premises by police violence. Pupils, students were thrown out. They all studied outside their school buildings. The whole world knows that.

Q. No one knows that. If the world knows about it, it knows about it as propaganda. My assertion is that 235.881 students studied in the Albanian language. The witness who was here the day before yesterday, the man from Zegra, said himself --

JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that is not so. He said it's not so.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the municipality of Vucitrn at the beginning of 1999, that is to say, your municipality - I have heard that you are now president of that municipality, or vice-president of that municipality - 12.258 ¹⁷⁵⁰ students studied in the Albanian language, and in the Serb language, 39. In the municipality of Srbica that you were mentioning, 102 students in the Serb language and --

JUDGE MAY: Let him deal with one thing at a time. First of all, the allegation is made about the municipality which the witness was a resident of.

Do you know anything about that, Mr. Kadriu?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milosevic is supplied with erroneous information. In the village of Prelluzhe and Gojbuja, and the village of Grace, all in Vushtrri commune, mainly inhabited by Serbs, and we don't know how many school pupils there were because we are unable to go there to investigate, but UNMIK looks after school students and sees that they all go to classes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This has nothing to do with my question whatsoever. I asked you whether you know that in the municipality of Vucitrn before the war, that is to say just before the war broke out, 12.258 Albanians studied in the Albanian language.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just say whether you can confirm that or not, Mr. Kadriu, without making a speech.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not 12.000 but 14.000 students studied outside the school buildings. They were deprived of their school buildings by your police in 1991. We study in private houses. We turned our houses into schools, and even there, we weren't left in peace. Even there, they arrested dozens of teachers. You have arrested and convicted ¹⁷⁵¹ dozens of teachers.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know that the witness from Zegra who was here the day before yesterday confirmed that children attended proper schools in school buildings, not outside school buildings, and that that school had a student body of 900, for example?

A. It is not true that Albanian pupils followed classes in school premises, with the exception of some primary schools that were released for their use.

Q. All right. You say it's not true and it is not true if that's the way you are putting it.

A. It's not true. We worked in private houses.

Q. There are 62 students in the high school in Vucitrn studying in the Albanian language, and at the technical school 106 students studying in the Albanian language in Vucitrn. So in addition to primary schools, I'm talking about secondary schools as well.

A. I -- the question is not clear. I don't know what answer to give because there's no question, and I don't grasp the figures. I don't know what you're looking for.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] What I am looking for is --

JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard a lot of evidence on this question. Ultimately it will be for the Trial Chamber to determine what weight to attach to the evidence. You should move on to another area now, ¹⁷⁵² and as the Presiding Judge said, an area which is closer in the allegations in the indictment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that this subject about this alleged discrimination against Albanian children, and as the first witness, Bakalli, put it, apartheid is a subject that is very close to the gravest accusations that have been levelled here. These are total lies. Hundreds of thousands of Albanian children that studied in the Albanian language are figures that are generally known, and --

JUDGE MAY: You've been told to move on, Mr. Milosevic. We have heard these arguments and no doubt we'll hear more about them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know that within the Geneva Conference in 1992 - in 1992, that is - the government of our country presented a proposal to overcome the problems related to education in Kosovo? The problem was that the Albanian separatists refused to give their curricula for verification to the Ministry of Education of Serbia. That's what it pertained to.

And do you know that within this Geneva Conference in 1992, our government submitted a proposal that had several points? Are you aware of this proposal that was related to reaching agreement on the maximum guarantees of preserving the cultural identity of the Albanian minority? This is under point one.

Point two, returning to the workplace --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. This is supposed to be a question. Now, let the witness deal with the original question. ¹⁷⁵³ Do you know about -- Mr. Kadriu, first of all, do you know about this Geneva Conference or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This conference at Geneva, if it acted on this basis, I can only tell you that all the teachers and pupils were forced out of our schools. I don't know when this conference was held, but I can inform the accused that he -- you removed teachers and pupils from their schools with violence.

JUDGE MAY: That is not the question you were asked. The next question is: If you know of the conference, do you know that the government put forward proposals at the conference relating to education?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not true that the Serbian government took an interest in the education in Kosova. It was interested in destroying this education system. This was proved later, in the next ten years.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that in this programme, there was a proposal to have all Albanian teachers returned to work, all of those who had left their workplaces of their own free will, except for a very small number who had committed criminal offences? Just say yes or no, whether you know about this or not.

A. I won't answer with yes or no. Don't restrict my right to speak, otherwise I can't -- I will not answer. You have deprived me of the right ¹⁷⁵⁴ to speak for ten years. Allow me to answer as I -- according to my knowledge.

JUDGE MAY: No. Let it be clear: This is not a political occasion; it's a trial concerned with criminal matters. It applies both to you, Mr. Kadriu, and also to you, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you were not being deprived of any rights here. The only point we make to you is to deal as quickly as you can with any questions, focusing on the question itself. You won't be restricted to yes or no unless it's an answer, but if you can answer yes or no, it will enable the work to be done more expeditiously.

Now, Mr. Milosevic, ask your question again.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about the proposal related to the return of all Albanian teachers to their jobs, those who had left the workplace originally due to this problem?

A. From 1991, every year at the beginning of September we tried to enter the schools, but you prevented us. You had police contingents with bulletproof jackets and equipped with --

Q. Don't repeat this. We heard this yesterday. Don't repeat it.

A. I don't know that there was any such thing. Until 1997, when, together with the intervention of the Sant' Egidio organisation, something was done to return Albanian pupils to their school buildings who had been expelled by violence. There was an agreement with Rugova that was never implemented, and you deceived him twice. The agreement was signed twice. The Sant' Egidio organisation is also a witness to the fact that this ^{1755 BLANK PAGE 1756} agreement was not implemented.

Q. Yes. They are witnesses of the fact that the agreement was carried out, and it wasn't elementary or secondary education that was a problem; it was the university that, from September onwards, had received tens of thousands of square metres of space. But I'm not going to go into this any further, because we have already dealt with that here. Do you know that in this programme there was --

A. It is not true what you're saying.

JUDGE MAY: I think now we have exhausted this topic. The Chamber has heard enough.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You won't let me mention schools any more at all?

JUDGE MAY: No, unless you've got some relevant question. Mr. Ryneveld -- just a moment. Mr. Ryneveld, we've spent nearly half an hour on this schools question. Now, it's true that the Prosecution raised it first, and there was evidence from the earlier witnesses about education. I think we need to reconsider whether any further evidence should be adduced on this topic.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I am not aware that we are planning on, beyond what we have done so far, to call further evidence with respect to the issue of education, except perhaps through some expert witnesses that are to be called in due course, but certainly not through these types of witnesses. ¹⁷⁵⁷

JUDGE MAY: The danger is that we spend a long time in a trial on matters which are strictly not part of the indictment and have very peripheral relevance to it.

MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate that, Your Honour. This evidence was led more by way of historical background as to the immediate conflict. We had no idea that this background information would be something that would take up quite this much time. So I take Your Honour's point and we will certainly take that into consideration in terms of the evidence we lead from future witnesses.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're of the view that you should move on, Mr. Milosevic. You've heard what we've said to the Prosecution.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I have just one more question, and please, it requires just a yes or no answer, and could you assist me in this. Is the witness claiming that Albanian students use the buildings of primary and secondary schools in Kosovo and Metohija?

A. They didn't use them until 1997, some even later, until KFOR came in.

Q. All right. You've answered the question. You mentioned Velika Reka and the refugees who were staying there and that this was a programme for changing the ethnic pattern. Do you know that this settlement for refugees in Velika Reka was part of the habitat programme and was assessed as one of the best of its kind by the international community and that it has a total of 84 houses? Do you know about that? ¹⁷⁵⁸

A. I don't know how it was assessed by international community, but one thing I know, that you instrumentalised it in order to change, to alter the ethnic structure of the population of Kosova. Because if you wanted to resolve that social issue, the social problem - and I really am sorry for them - you would have settled them somewhere else where the conditions were better: in Serbia, Vojvodina, or somewhere else. The greatest density of population is in Kosova compared to all parts of former Yugoslavia, and poverty, likewise, was higher there. You didn't want to resolve the social problems, but just you used it for political ends, to change the structure of the population.

Q. I asked you whether you know that this settlement has a total of 84 houses.

A. I don't know the number of houses, the exact number, but I know that this is what you did in other regions of Kosova, with the aim of altering the ethnic structure --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In relation to this alteration of the ethnic composition, do you know that the number of refugees in Kosovo and Metohija totalled 5.000 altogether?

A. I don't know the number of columns. I don't have information to that effect. We were unable to get any information from you about that.

Q. It is sufficient to say that you don't know.

A. I don't know.

Q. And do you know that these 5.000 comprise 0.7 per cent of the ¹⁷⁵⁹ total number of refugees who came to Serbia, that is to say, less than 1 per cent, a lot less than 1 per cent? Are you aware of that?

A. I don't know what number that was, but I know the purpose, the goal of that action, which was a political one, to change the ethnic structure, and I am certain about that.

Q. Then the government carried it out in the contrary way, if that was the objective, because do you know that the territory of Kosovo is 10 per cent of the total territory, and only 0.7 per cent of all refugees went to that area? Can you do the relevant math? Yes or no.

A. I can't make any maths here, but I'm giving you the number of buses that left Prishtina to the west as a result of the pressure and violence exerted against the Albanian population under various pretexts. There was not a single state in Europe that didn't host Kosovars that left Kosova at that time, while you kept populating it with Serbs.

Q. Did you hear me say that there was a total of 5.000 refugees in Kosovo?

JUDGE MAY: We've dealt with that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness says that he cannot deal with this math. On the other hand, he's dealing with the Academy of Sciences and Arts, so I don't understand how come he can't do this math that goes up to 10.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said that you were arrested and interrogated because you were struggling for a Kosovo republic and because you were issuing documents on which it said "Kosovo Republic," "The Republic of Kosovo." You said that ¹⁷⁶⁰ you were sentenced to 20 days in prison. Do you know that this is an administrative sentence, not a criminal sentence, and it was actually a magistrate for minor offences that had sentenced you to it? Yes or no.

A. Not only myself but all the Albanian teachers underwent -- or went through those doors of your police, and we were all mistreated. I'm telling you that Riza Bilali, who was the professor and the principal of the secondary school then. Qazim Azemi.

JUDGE MAY: You were asked about your sentence. If it makes any difference, it's said that it was an administrative magistrate who sentenced you, or a magistrate for minor offences. Do you know who sentenced you or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were sentenced only because we taught students, for nothing else. The charges written there, it doesn't matter what was written there; they were absurd.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, he can say whatever he wants, but you should make sure that he actually gives an answer to my questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So what about my question? Was this an administrative sentence?

JUDGE MAY: Well, what difference does that make? What difference does it make?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The difference is that he was not prosecuted in terms of having criminal charges brought against him at ¹⁷⁶¹ all. Administrative sentences are pronounced only --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, Mr. Kadriu, would you deal with that. Do you know it was purely an administrative sentence and not a criminal one? If you know, just say so.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Milosevic should know it better for --

JUDGE MAY: No. Don't comment on the evidence, please. Just answer the question. Do you know if it was a criminal sentence or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were maltreated, beaten up, and sent to prison. I don't know what name he may put it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, you did in fact serve 20 days in prison for this offence?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For the others, I had to pay.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only myself but others too.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that this kind of administrative sentence is pronounced for violating public law and order?

A. What order were we violating when we were teaching our students without being paid for that, without having the necessary conditions to do that, escaping your police, trying to dodge the police in order to educate the people? You should have subsidised the education and not ban it. Only under your government, under your power, this happened. In no place in the world -- I don't think there is any other place that this can happen. This was discrimination. We were deprived of our right to ¹⁷⁶² education, to educate our children.

Q. You have already stated that Albanians did not use school buildings in Kosovo and Metohija. Since that is an untruth that can easily be disproved, and there are hundreds and hundreds of examples to prove that, I need no further explanation. I am asking you whether you know that these administrative sentences are pronounced if you, for example, do not pay the fine for parking in the wrong place and --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've heard enough about this. We've heard what you have said, and we've heard what the witness has said. We're not going to get any further.

No. No. Mr. Kadriu, there's no need to go into this. Now, next question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did he believe then and does he believe now that the documents that they published entitled "The Republic of Kosovo," are legal documents?

A. They were legal for us. We had our administration, our Ministry of Education, which issued such documents. And then on these documents, on these certificates, we put the marks, grades of the students. They were legal. If that were not the case, then we wouldn't have continued to teach our students, wouldn't have --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a sufficient answer, Mr. Kadriu. Mr. Milosevic, next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you think that these documents are legal now? ¹⁷⁶³

A. Certainly that they are. More than legal, because they had a seal. They were certified by the school teacher, principal. They were legal and issued by the Ministry of Education of Kosova.

Q. You said that you heard of the KLA in 1991.

A. I read in newspapers that something was being done in this respect.

Q. All right. You were involved in public activities, as you had put it, as far as back from the early 1990s. Do you know of the activity of the organisation of Osama bin Laden in Kosovo?

A. I've heard about bin Laden this year. I had never heard of him before. Only during this -- I mean, when the tragedy was perpetrated against the American people, I heard about him. I never had heard about him before.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That is enough on that. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about the Mujahedin and their atrocities in Kosovo and Metohija?

A. That's not true. It's not true that there were Mujahedins in Kosova. This is a concoction of your mind, just a work of imagination.

Q. Just say it's not correct or, "I don't know." Don't take up my time, please.

I'm going to read to you a passage, and you'll be able to tell me whether it's correct or not:

"Al Qaeda [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] some terrorist organisations that operates under its umbrella or which it ¹⁷⁶⁴ supports, including..." [Interpretation] I'm going to skip over this next bit, [In English] "... Croatia, Albania," et cetera. [Interpretation] Do you consider that to be correct?

A. That is not right. That is a fiction of your imagination.

Q. All right. [In English] Congressional statement, Federal Bureau of Investigation. [Interpretation] Congressional statement of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. That's what this is.

JUDGE MAY: What is the date of it?

THE ACCUSED: December 18, last year. After September 11.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can put that into evidence in due course. Meanwhile, the witness says he knows nothing of it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking the witness whether the quotation I read out was correct. He said it was incorrect, that it was false, and it was the product of my imagination.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now I am going to ask you the following, is this correct: [Previous translation continues]... [In English] "... Afghanistan, Bosnia, then Cechnya and Kosovo." [Interpretation] Is that passage I have quoted correct?

A. I have no idea about that. I am not here to become an advocate of Bosnia or Afghanistan. I am speaking here about Kosova. There are no Mujahedin in Kosova. This is true.

Q. I asked you what you know about their activities, not whether they exist there. That they exist has not been challenged. But what you want to say is that you know nothing of their activities; is that it? ^{1765 BLANK PAGE 1766}

JUDGE MAY: No. He says there were no Mujahedin in Kosovo. That's what he says.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. He doesn't need that much assistance, obviously. [Previous translation continues]... [In English] "identified in Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania." [Interpretation] Is that true or is it not true, according to the knowledge you have?

A. I said I have no knowledge about other countries. Concerning Kosova, I may say that there are no Mujahedins there.

Q. The last passage I quoted was the Congressional Research Service Front Line. That was the source.

You spoke about an attack on the village of Cirez. That is incorrect, because everything else you said is incorrect too. But as far as this concrete event is concerned, I want to ask you the following: Do you know on the 3rd of March, 1998, in the village of Cirez, KLA terrorists killed four policemen? Do you know that?

A. I'm not aware of that. I know that there was an exchange of fire, but I know that your forces killed people there. How can I know that, who was killed there? I only know that people, civilians, even women, were killed there.

Q. You don't know anything about that, about the fact that four policemen were killed in a horrible manner from an ambush in the village of Cirez, before the event that you talked about? In the village of Cirez.

A. What did your policemen want to do in the houses of the Albanian inhabitants of Cirez? ¹⁷⁶⁷

Q. Well, although I'm not here to answer your questions, let me tell you that they were looking for weapons. And that is their legitimate right. And do you know that the policemen were searching for weapons and confiscated a large number of weapons, in fact? Do you know about that?

A. They didn't confiscate any weapons. They went and provoked and mistreated people in their own homes. Just to give you an example, when they searched my home, even my library was a problem for them.

Q. Apart from all this phraseology that you use with respect to maltreatment, can you speak about material, actual facts and evidence? That's what I'm asking you about.

You yourself said here, and I heard you say it with my own ears, and it's probably been recorded -- not probably but it has certainly been recorded, that at the end of February the owner of the house that was mentioned by you, you said in self-defence, you used the word "self-defence," that in self-defence he had killed a policeman, a policeman who had come to search for weapons or to ask for documents and to check something out. You say that that is self-defence. Do you say that anywhere in the world to shoot a policeman that comes to arrest you, for example, not even just to search your apartment, to ask for documents, but can that be treated as self-defence anywhere in the world? Anywhere in the world, is shooting at a policeman considered being self-defence?

JUDGE MAY: Don't -- just a moment. Don't deal with the broad question because that's a matter of comment, but deal, if you can, with what happened, if you can give us any more detail of what happened when ¹⁷⁶⁸ the owner of the house killed a policeman.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if the policeman was killed then, because it was impossible for me to get any information. I remember, however, that in Vojnik village in Drenica region, the police, accompanied by armoured cars, had gone to search a house there, an Albanian house. And then they went up to that conflict. How the conflict evolved or how it happened, I don't know, but I only know that there were casualties there in Vojnik too.

JUDGE MAY: And can you help us -- just one thing. Can you help us with this: To your knowledge, did the police at this time, 1998, search for weapons in the villages or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police constantly used this pretext to search all the Albanian houses and villages, every day. They maltreated people every day in their own family members' eyes, right from not only 1998, but as of 1991, this kept occurring all the time. I have the chronology of the Council for Human Rights on this matter.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not in the least bit interested in the imagined documents of this witness or his answers to the Prosecutor with respect to these fabricated documents. I am interested in material -- the material facts that he presented here, so I would like to prevail upon you to ask him to answer the questions and not go on talking about the last ten minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The Ahmeti family lost their lives in the conflict with the KLA -- ¹⁷⁶⁹

JUDGE MAY: Before we go into that, you say that the documents are forged; is that right, Mr. Milosevic? Is that the allegation?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me see what you said, because I wasn't able to hear. There was some noise. I wasn't able to hear. Yes. What I'm saying is -- I am claiming, in fact, that what this witness has presented on behalf of his Council for Human Rights is pure manipulation. That is what I maintain.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, it's been suggested that the documents you have produced are forgeries. You should have the opportunity to deal with that and comment upon it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no document that I brought has been forged. I have brought documents from the municipal government, signed by Slobodan Doknic, and I can be responsible for each one of them. I can be responsible with my life.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not the question here. That's not the question. I'm not talking about that type of document. We'll be coming to those types of documents in due course. What I'm talking about is the information of his alleged Council for Human Rights about the sufferings of the Albanians, and I consider that they are completely -- it is a complete manipulation and nothing else. The documents he's brought here will go into those, will explain those, and easily. It's just a minor point, that.

JUDGE MAY: You were asking about the Ahmeti family. What do you say? What do you want to ask?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said precisely that. He claimed ¹⁷⁷⁰ that they were killed by the Serb forces. I want to say that the Ahmeti family lost their lives in a clash between the KLA and the police. That's what it was all about, and no terror on the part of Serb forces against this family. No Serb forces, as you call the police and army, undertook the maltreatment of the population. The army and the police force did not engage in any war crimes.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with that. The Ahmeti family, it's suggested that they were killed in a clash between the KLA and the police. What do you say about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ahmeti family never fought with the police or the army. They were in their own home on the evening when they were surrounded. All the men were taken out of the house and were executed in the most barbaric fashion. Meanwhile, the women underwent the most appalling trauma gathered in a room. I won't talk about it. Milosevic's army and police know what they did then. Then a horror, massacre, took place. This has also been shown by non-governmental organisations from other countries who were in Kosova. Just call on their witnesses.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: This is an important issue. It goes directly to your case. You're saying that the Ahmeti family were in fact killed in a clash between the KLA and the police. I think you are duty-bound to put something more to the witness. Do you have any other question as to how precisely they were killed in this clash between the KLA and the police, ¹⁷⁷¹ or are you just making that as a general allegation? It would strengthen your case, it seems to me, if you were able to put more precise matters as to exactly how they were killed. Were they caught in a crossfire? Were they fighting with the KLA?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are facts which exist, and the facts are that in the village of Cirez, in that particular village, on the 3rd of March, the terrorists of the KLA --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Put those allegations to the witness. Put them to the witness as part of your case.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have put them forward, that is, that on the 3rd of March, 1998, in Cirez, the KLA terrorists killed four policemen, and that on that occasion, therefore, as a consequence of the killing, there was a further escalation of the conflict between the KLA terrorists and the police, and that the Ahmeti family was the victim of that clash.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say to that, Mr. Kadriu?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am entirely convinced and sure that nobody of the members of the Ahmeti family were in the KLA. I can swear this on my life. None of them were involved in the KLA. All the men were killed, with the exception of one, who was working in the West. They were taken in their own homes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not staying here -- we're not talking about the fact whether they were members of the KLA, but they were killed in a clash between the KLA and the police. ¹⁷⁷² But let me take it from the end, because this question was raised at the end yesterday, the killing of the so-called Gerxhaliu family, and we saw pictures here and all the explanations, attendant explanations. There are witnesses who claim that the Gerxhaliu family was precisely caught between the forces of the police and army, on the one side, and the Albanian terrorists and bandits of the KLA on the other side, and that they were sending out warnings to the Gerxhaliu family, cautioning them, saying that it was very dangerous to stay in the army because the KLA was shooting at the army precisely from that side.

I have a record here, a note here, which says, according to the statement of Sali Gerxhaliu, a member of that same family, given to the Human Rights Watch, and it was published in their book of 2001. The book is called "Under Orders." It says that the investigating judge, accompanied by the police, went to the site straight away to investigate, and during the investigation, the people photographed were killed. And you're probably taking this information. And the investigating judge was a lady. She was a Serb. And when this occurred, there was serious fighting between the KLA forces and the Serb forces. The KLA was both in the village and around the village, and --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop you. You are supposed to be asking questions at this stage. Now, how is it suggested -- just a moment. How is it suggested that this family of men, women, and children were killed in this clash?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that Milosevic is a master of -- ¹⁷⁷³

JUDGE MAY: No. Just a moment. Mr. Milosevic, how is it suggested that this family that we've been dealing with, and the photographs of which of the bodies we have seen, and the position, how is it suggested that they were killed in the clash with the KLA? Can you tell us that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but you didn't let me read out this note that I received. It says: The army of Yugoslavia and the KLA were fighting. They were in and around the village, that is to say, the members of the KLA, and while they were leaving the house from which they opened fire on the army, they liquidated the Gerxhaliu family; the KLA did. Now, how they took in and brought out the bodies, that's another question. So in the same book - and the book is called "Human Rights --" - and it says on the same day, at 4.00 in the morning, he heard two NATO explosions which --

JUDGE MAY: That's far enough. You've heard the suggestion which has been made, Mr. Kadriu. Do not comment upon it, or the source, but help us with this: As far as you know, is there any truth in that suggestion? And can you assist us with any more detail about how this event happened?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a mockery, a mockery of the victims, and he should be ashamed of himself.

JUDGE MAY: No. That's precisely what is not going to assist. Now, can you just deal with the matter factually, please. Now, you've heard the suggestion. You say it's not true. Can you assist us at all with any of the detail? ¹⁷⁷⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 31st of May, in the early hours of the morning, military and police forces concentrated on the Rashica neighbourhood, not more than 200 metres away, went down and entered among the family of Selatin Gerxhaliu and then committed a crime, executing the entire family. There were no forces of the KLA in Studime e Poshtme because that was where Serbian forces were concentrated. This is the truth. You might know the point where the Serbian forces were concentrated.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the source of your information on this particular incident?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In this case, in his own house -- not very far from his house, Shukri Gerxhaliu was there - and he should be coming here as a witness - with his wife.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You got this information from him; is that what you are saying?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and from many others who know about this case.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The microphone has just been switched on. You forgot to switch it on after you had switched it off. Now we have heard an absolutely fantastic assertion here, and for purposes of clarity and for the record, I would like to ask another question to make things clear.

The witness is saying that the police entered the house and ^{1775 BLANK PAGE 1776} killed, in cold blood, the Gerxhaliu family, and then sent for the investigating judge to come and ascertain what they had done. Or perhaps the other variant is the following: that the police entered, saw that the family had been killed, and called the investigating judge to see the crime that had taken place over a family. What do you, gentlemen, as men of the law, think is more logical, particularly in view of the explanation we've just been given?

JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the question is: Does he claim that the police came and killed the family and then called the investigating judge to come and ascertain how the family had been killed? Is that what he's saying?

JUDGE MAY: Do you know, Mr. Kadriu, if the investigating judge was called?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he was called or not, but this was an obstruction by the Serbian military and police which they had done before. They would commit a crime and then call for the judge. This was a form of obstruction for certain intentions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very good, that. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you have claimed on several occasions that there was no violence committed against the Serbs, that is to say, you have claimed that this false indictment claims that it is the Serbs who are the culprits, do you know how many terrorist attacks were performed in Kosovo and Metohija from 1991 until June 1999? ¹⁷⁷⁷

A. I don't know about attacks, because the state apparatus was in your hands. I don't know. Things were staged, improvised, for certain purposes.

Q. I'm talking about terrorist attacks.

A. I don't know that there was.

Q. You don't know anything about that? Well, how, then, did you think you would protect human rights if you don't know about terrorist attacks? How is that possible?

A. There were no terrorist attacks.

Q. Did you perhaps hear of the fact that in 1998 alone there were 1.885 terrorist attacks in that year alone? Just in that year, 1998, when the terrorists were assisted by the German services and other services and when they started all this. One thousand, eight hundred and eighty-five attacks in 1998. Do you know about that?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. As you weren't interested in what was going on and being done against the Serbs, the police, and the army, or anybody else, and you say that you were interested what was happening to the Albanians, do you know the following: How many terrorist attacks there were on citizens of Albanian ethnicity? Do you know how many of those were performed in Kosovo and Metohija against Albanian citizens?

A. I know that attacks on Albanian citizens were made by your army, escorted by your secret police in a jeep which -- of a dark olive colour, who killed people on the streets, just as my workmate Skender Bllaca was murdered. ¹⁷⁷⁸

Q. All right. You've --

JUDGE MAY: I think we're going to adjourn now. We'll adjourn now for quarter of an hour.

--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So my question was does he know about the crimes of the KLA terrorists committed against the Albanians, and I did not get an answer.

A. I already answered that question that during 1997, 1998, the Serb secrete police moved about and around the place with dark-coloured cars and killed the people. And among these people who were killed was also my workmate Skender Bllaca, whose photo is here with me. And I can tell you about his CV, if you wish. The police killed them at night.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kadriu, the question you were asked was whether you know whether the KLA members committed crimes against Albanians. Just -- you can say yes or no.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not true. These crimes were committed by Serb secret police.

JUDGE KWON: Please stick to the question and simply answer it yes or no. Thank you.

You may go on, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. My specific question in the context of these crimes of the terrorists against the Albanians was what I asked you. There were also ¹⁷⁷⁹ inter-party killings. That's well-known. This was committed by Hashim Thaci against Rugova's supporters.

Does he know of the following incident: The killing of Rexhep Bajrami, Rexhep Bajrami from the village of Cecelija, who was an activist of Rugova's in that village and who was killed on orders of the local KLA commander whose name is Krasniqi? Otherwise, he is the uncle of Hashim Thaci. The killing of Rexhep Bajrami was ordered by him only because Bajrami would not take Rugova's picture off the wall. Does the witness know about this event in the context of his work in the field of human rights?

A. Your Honours, this name "Rexhep Bajrami" does not exist in Vushtrri. I don't know anyone by that name to have been killed. Probably the information the accused has is wrong. There isn't such a case. I can say it in full authority. Not in my municipality.

Q. Does he know that in 1998 there were 327 terrorist attacks against members of the Albanian national minority who were loyal to the Republic of Serbia? In 1998, 327 attacks.

A. I don't know about that. I don't believe that there were Albanians who were loyal to Serbia.

Q. Do you remember, for example, that a member of the Executive Council, that is to say, the provincial government, an Albanian, Faik Jashari, when you were expelling Serbs from Kosovo, stated: "The columns of Serbs from Kosovo have been joined by 30.000 Albanians as well, those loyal to the Republic of Serbia." Do you remember this statement made by Faik Jashari, an Albanian who was a member of the provincial government at ¹⁷⁸⁰ the time when Serbs were expelled from Kosovo after UNMIK and KFOR came?

A. I don't know that there is any Faik Jashari in my municipality, so I don't know anything about such an absurd statement. I don't know where you get such statements, such false statements. There isn't anyone by that name.

Q. And do you know that several Albanians were members of the provincial government during the years of 1998, 1999, and during the war?

A. I don't know about that. No. I don't remember anything. I don't remember of such a person being the member of the provincial government. Maybe some quislings there may have been, but I don't know about that.

Q. Well, do you know about Faik Jashari? Was he an Albanian? Is he an Albanian? What is he?

A. This is the first time to hear such a name, in this very court. I say it in full responsibility.

Q. You never saw him, not even on television, or you never heard him over the radio? You don't know of him at all?

A. I say it in full competence, I have never seen or never heard anything about this man. It's the first time for me to hear it, in this very court.

Q. And do you know about Albanians who were members of the delegation of Serbia at the negotiations in Rambouillet? Have you heard of them? Have you seen them on television?

A. I know that the Serb delegation was there, but I don't know its composition. I know that some leaders were there, but I was never interested to find out more about that composition. ¹⁷⁸¹

Q. And do you know about another member of the government, also an Albanian? There were a few of them. I'm not going to mention them all right now, and Xhafer Gjuka is the one I'm referring to now. Your members of the KLA slit his throat after the members of UNMIK came to Pec. Have you heard of him? Have you heard of Xhafer Gjuka?

A. I have not heard of Xhafer Gjuka. I am from Vushtrri municipality, and this is the first time to hear about this man too. I'm afraid you have wrong information, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. I knew Xhafer Gjuka personally, so this bit of information I have certainly is not wrong. I'm just asking you whether you know about it.

JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't. No need to say any more.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know about hundreds of kidnapped civilians by the Albanian terrorists, and do you know of the consequences of these kidnappings? Do you know anything about it?

A. What Albanian civilians being kidnapped you are talking about? I don't understand what you mean.

Q. I don't know what is unclear about this. As far as I know, everything I'm saying is being interpreted to you in Albanian. I'm talking about kidnapped civilians, civilians who were kidnapped by the KLA, and many were killed later as well. Do you know anything about that? That's what I'm asking you.

A. I don't know of such a thing. This is the first time for me to hear that.

Q. All right. And do you remember the attack on the police station ¹⁷⁸² in Prelluzhe on the 28th of August, 1998?

A. There wasn't any attacks mounted there. This village is inhabited mainly by Serbs. I don't remember anything, but I can tell you that there hasn't been any such case, otherwise, I would have remembered that. How could Albanians enter a Serb-inhabited village?

Q. You claim, you claim as a matter of fact that in Prelluzhe there were no Albanians; is that right?

A. In the vicinity of Prelluzhe, yes, there were Albanians, but in the village per se, there weren't Albanians. Beyond the river, there were some houses, which were all burnt down by Serb police and citizens of Prelluzhe. They were the first houses to be burnt in 1998. Even to this day, the Albanians have not returned to those houses in the vicinity of Prelluzhe.

Q. Since you claim that there were no Albanians in Prelluzhe, how do you explain, for example, that in 1990, in 1990, the president of the Executive Council of Albania, a man by the name of Xhaferi signed a decision transferring Albanian children from the school in Prelluzhe to a school 50 metres away in the village of Donja Stanovci? Since there were more of them there, they would attend school together. How do you explain that document, for example?

A. This happened in 1998, if I remember right. I was doing my military service then. And I recall when on television I saw the coverage of the meeting held between -- among the Serb citizens whereby they asked that all Albanians leave the vicinity of Prelluzhe where they were living, as well as the children should leave the school. This is the first time ¹⁷⁸³ that Albanians started to be evicted from schools in Kosova. The Albanian students, I mean. I remember also the speeches, the extraordinary address you gave then, in which you called for a Greater Serbia, and so on and so forth. You would just be --

JUDGE MAY: No. Don't go on. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Where did you see this speech of mine, the speech that I made? Where did I take this speech?

A. I remember very well. I said I was doing my military service, and then we had to follow all your speeches. Your officers forced us to do that.

Q. Where did I make this speech? You said that you had to follow my speeches. Where did I make that speech?

A. You made that speech in Belgrade. We were obliged to see it on television. And your officers started to take pride in you after that.

Q. What did I say in this speech?

A. I remember very well you saying that either Serbia will lie from Mali i Gjoshit to Gjergjeli or it will not exist at all, and I am certain about that.

Q. Serbia does begin from the border with Hungary and it ends at the border with Macedonia. I don't understand what you tried to say. That I said that Serbia would be in Macedonia as well: Is that your assertion?

A. This is what you said then, in 1998. That was your claim then, not only about Macedonia, but you wanted to have a Slovenia, Croatia, ¹⁷⁸⁴ Bosnia as well.

Q. All right. Of course this is not true, and that is not what it says there. But this is just as incorrect as other things you've been saying here, so I'm not going to engage in a debate with you on that. Let me continue from where I had broken off. You do not know anything about the killings of Serbs, Albanians, civilians, policemen, kidnappings; you know nothing about any of this, right? On the contrary, your assertion is --

JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with this. Now, what is the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Do you know about what happened on the 19th of September, 1998, in the village of Makmal, on the road between Glogovac and Serbia, the attack against policemen, when three policemen were wounded?

A. I don't know of this case, because I am from Vushtrri municipality, so I don't remember. I don't know.

Q. Excellent. And do you know, then, of the attack in the village of Oshlan, in the municipality of Vucitrn, on the 22nd of September, 1998, when the police were attacked by automatic rifles and hand-held rocket launchers, and when Milos Radic, a policeman, was killed? Do you remember that incident? On the 22nd of September, 1998, the municipality of Vucitrn, the village of Oshlan. Do you remember that?

A. On 22nd of September, 1998 -- and in my evidence yesterday, I informed the Court that all the villages on both sides of the mountains of Cicavica were attacked by police and military forces. This was a very ^{1785 BLANK PAGE 1786} extensive offensive, involving both the police and the Yugoslav army.

Q. Well, yesterday, you yourself, as you were explaining something else, that the KLA was stationed - these are your words - stationed in the area of Cicavica. That is what you said yourself yesterday, of course, not in this respect, but while you were explaining other things, but that is also recorded. So the KLA was stationed in the area of Cicavica. How can you then speak about attacks on villages and villagers?

A. I don't deny what I said. I said that the KLA had various positions in this area. However, the attack by the police and military was on the civilian population. Civilians were killed, and I have their names here with me.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... the army and the police went to shoot at civilians there, not the KLA?

A. The KLA was not a terrorist army; it was a liberation army for Kosova. And you killed civilians there, and I have their names here. Not only killing them, but mutilating them.

Q. As for massacres, we know whose specialty that is. That is why I asked you whether you knew about Al Qaeda branches in Kosovo. It is known very well who massacres and who cuts heads off.

JUDGE MAY: You have dealt with that. Now, this is not going to assist the Trial Chamber. What is the next question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that on that very same day, the 22nd of September, 1998, there were several attacks against the police in the village of Oshlan, that is to say, between 1200 and 1500 hours, when two policemen ¹⁷⁸⁷ were wounded, Marko Galo [phoen] and Milutin Ivkovic in the village of Oshlan, that is to say, on the 22nd of September, 1998, in the municipality of Vucitrn, that is to say, your municipality?

A. As I said before, on the 22nd of September, the offensive started against 27 villages to the east of Cicavica, and other villages beyond Cicavica, and this offensive caused more than 200 people executed, all of them civilians with the exception of one, who was a soldier of the KLA. With one exception. The others were civilians.

Q. And in the same village, on the 23rd, that is to say, the next day, again the police were attacked. Slavoljub Ivkovic and Micko Vranic were the victims. Do you remember that?

A. The police were not attacked, because these villages are mainly inhabited by Albanians. But it was the Serbian police and military surrounded these villages on both sides of Cicavica and kept them as if in quarantine until the 25th of September, until they were freed.

Q. So your claim is that in all these incidents, on the 22nd, on the 23rd of September, when all these policemen that I have mentioned were killed or wounded, that all of this was actually in the police campaign against civilians?

A. I don't know that there were Serbian soldiers or policemen wounded or killed, as you claim. However, I do know that the Serbian army and police exercised terror against 27 villages in Vushtrri municipality and other villages in Gllogovc municipality, and this led to the massacre of many civilians.

Q. So you claim that the KLA did not kill anyone, did not wound ¹⁷⁸⁸ anyone, that it was the police attacking civilians and even attacking and killing themselves.

A. In Vukovar too, and in Srebrenica, civilians killed each other, according to your logic.

Q. No, according to your logic. That is your assertion, that this was all done by the police.

JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that on the same day, on the 23rd of September, in the village of Dubofc, Radoje Cvetkovic, a policeman, was seriously wounded in this series of attacks against the police?

A. I know that on this day, the 24th, you executed 13 young men and elderly people and killed a woman, and among those people executed, three were pupils of the school where we worked. Fourteen we buried in the village of Galice. They were all civilians, and I can say this with total confidence. Their bodies were also mutilated.

Q. Who killed them?

A. Your police and army. Your police and army, led by Janic, who led the offensive masked with Vucina Janic.

JUDGE KWON: That's not the answer to the question you were asked. And at this time, Mr. Milosevic, I understand you may put questions to this witness regarding your case to a certain extent, but in terms of time we are given today, I'd like to advise you to concentrate more on factual issues which appeared, emerged, during the examination-in-chief. As you were told yesterday, we are going to finish ¹⁷⁸⁹ with the witness today, so we have not more than two hours from now on. And you yourself said that you have some questions regarding the documents this witness presented yesterday, so why don't you start with some specific questions regarding those kind of matters.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is precisely concrete issues that I'm addressing, specific ones, because it's not true that the army or the police committed any crimes whatsoever, which is something that this false indictment and the witness brought in by this false indictment is trying to show. But, yes, let me move on to the specific.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You described as a massacre of civilians --

A. In other words, they were extraterrestrials.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, let the accused finish his question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You spoke about the events that took place in the village of Prekaz when a bandit group of Adem Jashari died, and that's a very good example of how killers and terrorists are being proclaimed to be civilians. And you yourself said here, and it says so in your written statement as well, that Adem Jashari was overcome, overpowered when he ran out of ammunition. Therefore, you yourself here in this place quite clearly indicate the fact that Jashari and his group fought against the police and shot at the police. And as you know, there were several tens of them in numbers. Is that true or is it not?

A. Adem Jashari defended his own home and defended his own doorstep. I do know that. But I also know another truth, and that is that in Adem ¹⁷⁹⁰ Jashari's house, women, girls, and children, were massacred. Sixty-three graves were dug, mainly of civilians. I do not know -- I do not deny that Adem Jashari defended his own home, but you attacked it. You attacked him in his own home.

Q. Do you know how many Serbs and Albanians Adem Jashari killed and looted with his band of men before the police came to arrest him?

JUDGE MAY: Just deal with the question which is put or should be put in this way: It's suggested that Adem Jashari had a band of men. So the first question is this: Did he have a band of men?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that day when Adem Jashari was killed alongside his family in his home, there were women, children, and elderly people who were massacred. There was a large family and a lot of them were killed, with the exception of one small girl who survived.

JUDGE MAY: Did he have a band of men who looted?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's not true that he looted. He fought a liberation struggle. These were people defending their own hearths from Chetnik forces coming from Serbia.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When the police came to arrest him, do you know that the police did not shoot but asked them to come out and to surrender themselves, to give themselves up to the police?

A. I don't know, but I'm glad that you are aware of this because it shows that you knew everything that was going on there.

Q. I saw a report about it. And the witness that testified here before you criticised the procedure undertaken by the police, that it only ¹⁷⁹¹ gave two hours to Jashari and his band to surrender. Do you know about that?

A. I've heard this for the first time today, because all the people who were surrounded were executed in the most barbaric manner. Only a small girl survived. They were also mutilated. Who could survive to tell the tale?

Q. It's not true that only one small girl survived, because in those two hours, during those two hours, a number of family members managed to leave the house, and Jashari and his members, his band of men -- you refer to them as a family, but of course there are other instances in the world where bands are referred to as families, but anyway, Jashari and his band opened fire on the police force from heavy machine-guns and automatic weapons. Several tens of automatic weapons were used to fire on the police. Do you know about that?

JUDGE MAY: There were two questions there, two questions. The first question is: Do you know if any family members managed to leave the house?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that anybody got out. Everybody was executed except for this girl who survived and is still among us today.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You can take a look at the report about the event, but it is correct not only that they managed to leave but the police appealed to everybody to come outside, to leave the house and to give themselves up to the police. ¹⁷⁹² Now, do you know that he, that is to say, he killed a nephew from behind, in the back, because he wanted to surrender to the police and he thought that this was being -- that he was being a traitor and therefore shot him in the back, the son of his uncle?

A. This is not true, because you executed the entire Jashari family apart from this small girl who survived by chance. This is a fiction of your imagination. And you were involved in this event yourself.

Q. We are not contesting the fact that Jashari was killed in the clash with the police. That is not being put into question. But obviously from what you're saying, another thing is not being put into question and that is that he didn't want to be arrested but he fired, he shot, together with all the members of his band of men or bandits. Do you think that the policemen should have killed -- kamikaze policemen, for Jashari to kill them first and then --

JUDGE MAY: This is enough. It is not disputed that shots were fired. The question is how and in what circumstances. Mr. Milosevic, how do you suggest - so the witness can deal with it - that the 60 members of the family came to die? Is it suggested that they were killed in gunfire, in exchange of gunfire? Is that the suggestion?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course. It's common knowledge, a generally known fact. You don't know what the house looks like. And I read the report.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's -- just -- let the witness deal with the suggestion. ¹⁷⁹³ The suggestion is that this family were killed, 60, in an exchange of fire or the like. Yes. What do you say about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't deny that Adem Jashari was a member of the KLA. However, Adem Jashari's family were killed. They were executed by the Serbs, including girls, children. I saw mutilated children with my own eyes. How can this be excused, killing women, two elderly men in the family, almost 80 years old? They were -- according to Milosevic, they were on some barricade.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. They weren't at a barricade but in a reinforced house, and you yourself said that from that house they shot at the police.

A. They were in their own house. They were asleep when they were surrounded by the Serbian police and army. They were asleep when you surrounded them.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, what's the source of your information about this incident?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was early in the morning when Adem Jashari's family was surrounded. Not only the family but the whole neighbourhood in Prekazi i Poshtem.

JUDGE ROBINSON: But you were not there.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then they were executed. No, I wasn't there, but we saw from a distance, perhaps a few kilometres away, but I know that there were three rings of encirclement. It was true that we couldn't go there.

JUDGE MAY: But you told us you saw the bodies. Is that right? ¹⁷⁹⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

JUDGE MAY: But what sort of age were the bodies that you saw?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all of all ages, Your Honour. I saw the corpses when the police had taken them to a warehouse of building materials while the house of the Jashari family in Prekaz was still surrounded.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you actually witness how they were killed?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. How they were killed? No. But I saw the corpses. They were burned, mutilated, and they had been executed by gunshots.

JUDGE KWON: Did you go with Mr. Barani there?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I went with several human rights representatives from Vushtrri, and there I met Mr. Barani, who was filming, and the representatives of the Human Rights Council from Skenderaj.

JUDGE KWON: Okay.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You just said a moment ago that you were two or three kilometres away, watching the event. How long did you watch it go on for?

A. I went there several times, because this went on. And I had to go back to -- to return to Vushtrri to report what I had seen with my own eyes. I saw smoke. There were gunshots, anti-aircraft artillery firing. For three days on end, they were subjected to Serbian artillery fire in the Jashari family.

Q. You say three days? ^{1795 BLANK PAGE 1796}

A. It seems to me it was three days. You kept the house surrounded even later. Even later, it was kept besieged. There were victims who were drawn -- who were pulled out of the ruins, out of the ruins of burned houses, and they still haven't been identified to this day these members of the Jashari family.

Q. So according to your testimony just now, the police surrounded the house and for three days fought with a fortified -- with the fortified forces of Jashari, is that it? And there were a lot of policemen, as you yourself said. How large should the forces be, then, that were shooting at the police if the police needed three days to overcome them? How large were those forces, then?

A. No. They were executed on the first day, but you kept the house under siege because you had to prepare the minutes of what happened, which you then presented to the media. You kept the house encircled for certain purposes so that when you presented it to the international opinion, you had a version for that, a false version of that.

Q. And in your opinion, how long did this fighting go on between the Jashari group and the police? How long?

A. I don't know. I can't say for sure how long it lasted, but I know that they were attacked early morning, and people were killed also early morning. But you kept the house under siege. All the neighbourhood, in fact, preventing anyone from going near until you took the corpses to this construction materials warehouse in the vicinity of the Skenderaj.

Q. All right. This is quite clear. Your position is quite clear in that respect, and you yourself were not able to deny the existence of ¹⁷⁹⁷ fighting between the police and this group of bandits of his. You said that after these events --

A. There was not any group of bandits. Excuse me, Your Honours. There wasn't any group of bandits.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We have the evidence on this matter. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Ask your next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you switch my microphone on again. Ah, it's switched on. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, usually everywhere in the world a group fighting against the police force is referred to as a group of bandits, probably just not here.

You said that the inhabitants were escaping, were fleeing to Vucitrn, and that they were fleeing from the terror. Do you mean that they were fleeing from the police terror or were they fleeing from the area where there was shooting going on, like in this particular incident that we have just been referring to a moment ago ad infinitum until we reach some truths?

A. How couldn't people resist from fleeing when your army and police began to shell their houses? And before doing that, they -- along with shelling their houses, they started to evict the inhabitants forcibly, then to set fire to their houses and deport them from -- away from Vushtrri towards Macedonia and Albania. That was the underlying philosophy of your army and police.

Q. It's a good thing that you're a philosopher, but I'd like to ¹⁷⁹⁸ remain with material facts.

A. I am not a philosopher. I never studied philosophy.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we do not need these comments. Would you kindly refrain from them. Now, next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm going to read out a passage, and it is the following. As you are talking about expulsion in 1998, I'm going to read you the following.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, to be fair, you must say where this passage comes from. Give us the context.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I will say that once he answers my question. I will reveal it straight away. But I don't want to tell him in advance where the passage comes from. I want to ask him the question first, to ask him about it - I assume that's my right - and then I'll disclose the source later on. He claimed that it was not true that I told him in advance that the official congress testimony of the Federal Investigation Bureau of the American Congress, he probably said that -- would probably say that that was not true either, that it was a fiction of my imagination, had I not quoted it to him. This is the passage. I'm not going to hide the source. Of course not. [In English] [As read] "Explicit political persecution linked to Albania ethnicity is not verifiable. The east of Kosovo is still not involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilane, et cetera, has in the entire conflict period continued on a relatively normal basis. The actions of the security forces not directed against the Kosovar Albanians as an ethnically defined group but ¹⁷⁹⁹ against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters."

Q. [Interpretation] In your opinion; is that correct or not?

A. I don't know what they have written there, but I do know that your army and police killed about 15.000 civilian people, Mr. Milosevic. I don't know who wrote that report.

Q. I'm not asking you about your fabricated interpretations. What I'm asking you: Is what I have read out correct or not? Yes or no, please.

A. No, that's not true. Your police and army drove people out and deported them with violence, and killed them in so doing, and then collected them in cities as of the 1st of April. It drove them away from these cities too, forcibly. Some it killed, some it evicted forcibly to Macedonia and to Albania. That is the truth. One million people were deported to Macedonia, Albania, and other European countries. You did ethnic cleansing of Kosova. This is what you did.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I should like to request that my questions be answered, because we're wasting valuable time, which I will be short of. I don't mind how long the witness is going to answer, but I do mind that he is being repetitious. He is repeating and repeating like a parrot the same thing, that it is the Serbs who are the criminals.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, what I read out, in your opinion --

JUDGE MAY: There's no point going over that. He's effectively denied it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ¹⁸⁰⁰

Q. All right, then. This is an intelligence report from the foreign office, January 12th, 1999, [In English] Court of Trier, [Interpretation] to the administrative court of Trier. And I'm going to read you another passage:

[In English] "As laid out in the previous status report, the KLA has resumed its position after the partial withdrawal of the security forces in October 1998, so it once again controls broad areas in the zone of conflict. Before the beginning of spring 1999, there were still clashes between the KLA and security forces, although this has not until now reached the intensity of the battles of spring and summer 1998." [Interpretation] Is that true?

A. Regarding the expansion of KLA, you might wish to call the KLA commander. I am here to testify to the atrocities perpetrated by your army and police.

Q. All right. This is once again a report [In English] March 15, 1999, to administrative court Mainz. [Interpretation] I'll skip this, because you say you are not a KLA commander.

As you spoke about the Kosovo Verification Commission of the OSCE, do you know that there was a commission of the federal government for cooperation with this Verification Mission and that all the incidents that occurred in the space of those several months while the Verification Mission was on site, that minutes were kept between the federal government of Yugoslavia and the Verification Commission, that is to say, the government body for cooperation with the Verification Mission, that minutes existed? Do you know that? Do you know that that kind of ¹⁸⁰¹ assertation of the incidents and the minutes made by the Verification Commission and the federal government commission, that a report was written in connection with each of the incidents that took place? Do you know that?

A. I don't know that there is, but if there is, I don't have any information from the OSCE about that. Of course, its work was to draft a report on the situation that prevailed then, when it was in Kosova as well as in our municipality.

Q. Yes, but do you know that -- what you say during your testimony, there is practically nothing -- nothing is contained of that in the reports, or rather, the minutes that were compiled between the Verification Mission of the OSCE and the representatives of the commission of the federal government for cooperation with this commission in Kosovo and Metohija?

JUDGE MAY: The witness says he knows nothing about these minutes, so any questions along these lines is purely a matter of comment. The witness cannot help us. He's given his evidence and that's all he can do.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll have to sift through my questions and cut down on them, because the witness doesn't know anything about this, as you say. But I should like to draw your attention to the very clear contradictions that occurred at different points during the witness's testimony. First of all, he spoke about the stationing of the KLA in the area of Cicavica and the activities, but on the other side now, of the police and army in the Cicavica area, which is ¹⁸⁰² undoubtedly a conflict between the KLA and the army.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this is not the occasion for you to make those comments. You will have an opportunity at the end of the case to address us on contradictions. You must put questions to the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that by asking these questions, all these inconsistencies are being established. I do not have the opportunity or possibility to make a record of all the inconsistencies, because these are sheer, unadulterated lies here, and cooperation with this false indictment and the witnesses that that indictment brings forward. Because the question arises is: Who is doing the killing in Kosovo now, when there are no Serbs there?

JUDGE MAY: Just put a question. No more speeches.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, as you're not going to let me explain this, let me ask the question.

Q. Who is doing the killing in Kosovo now when there's no Serb army or police force there? Who is doing the killing in Kosovo now?

JUDGE MAY: There's no relevance that the Tribunal can see in that question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Let us go back to Vucitrn. I want to know, because he deals in human rights, whether he knows that after UNMIK and KFOR arrived, precisely in his municipality, the municipality of Vucitrn, 27 Serbs were killed. Does he know about that?

A. It's not true that there are no Serbs in Vushtrri municipality. ¹⁸⁰³ There are three villages mainly inhabited by Serbs. As to the killings Milosevic is referring to, I don't know that, because that is the responsibility of UNMIK to control the situation and to take records of what is happening. I am a professor at the secondary school and I am no longer president of the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms. There is someone else who is in that position now.

Q. This did not happen now; it happened when KFOR and UNMIK came, and at that time you were chairman of the council.

Do you know that on the 18th of May of 1999, where there is a forest by the village of Buzh [phoen], that the KLA killed six Serbs on a tractor who went out to the forest to cut wood: Slobodan Brajkovic, the father of three children; Slavujko Miletic, father of three children; Predrag Zdravkovic, father of three children; Slavisa Zdravkovic, a young man; Milovan Zdravkovic, father of four children; and Svetislav Zivkovic? Are you aware of this? Are you aware of the killing of these people who were going to the forest to cut wood? They were in a tractor.

A. On the 18th of May, I was in prison, in the prison of your army and police. They took me to prison. How could I know that?

Q. How could you know about all sorts of events that you testified about here and that you said that you had heard about, that they told you about them, that you coordinated work in this area, et cetera, in the very same way, therefore?

A. I told you: At that time I was not -- I was in prison, and we couldn't get hold of any information there. We were cut off from the rest of the world, rounded by your forces. We didn't have access to any ¹⁸⁰⁴ information, any newspapers, so how could I know that, in prison? I didn't know of what happened to my family until after the war.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And you didn't hear about that, Mr. Kadriu, after you came out of prison?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of May, the date the accused has mentioned, I hadn't heard of anything happened on that day, and I'm sure nothing happened on the 18th of May. I know that when the OSCE was at Mijalic, when they were still present in the town, someone from this village who was in the Yugoslav army committed an act of sabotage and fled.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make an effort. I'm going to digress now, because I see that you keep restricting my time, and I have to go back to these documents as well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You brought here a considerable number of documents. Before I move on to these documents, I would like to ask you something. As far as I could notice here, at least six times during your testimony you said that your documents burned. So these documents of yours that did not burn are quite worthless. We will establish that. And it so turns out that only documents that pertain to certain crimes burned. And now documents that relate to potatoes and things like that did not burn down, and on the other hand, documents relating to crimes did burn down. How could these documents be separated in this way? You refer to this at least six times, that all your documents burned down except for the documents relating to ^{1805 BLANK PAGE 1806} potatoes, purchases of cars, et cetera.

JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The question is: How come these documents that are worthless he did manage to salvage and the documents that he had relating to crimes and that he mentioned --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. The question is: It's suggested that your other documents were burnt but you managed to salvage these ones. Now, can you give us your evidence about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the technical secretary of the Council of Human Rights and Freedoms concealed the overwhelming majority of the council's documents in a house that was later burned. I can also give you the name of the secretary of the council, while these documents which Milosevic is trying to cover up were taken from the office of the municipality where the Serbian administration worked. They were taken after the war. There were very few documents that survived. There were some that were in copies that a colleague had but very few. And I would be very happy if I had all these documents at my disposal that I had before the war because they would help me a lot. It's my misfortune here that I don't have these documents, but the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms has the time scale of all the acts of violence, and I brought a copy here.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, I would like to ask you about these documents, because the Prosecutor has presented them so pompously here, worthless documents, and ¹⁸⁰⁷ he cannot make up for their value.

What do you prove by a list of members of the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vucitrn when there is a crisis and when there has to be a Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vucitrn? What do you prove with a list of the members of the Crisis Staff? By the way, I see up here in the heading --

JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness. He simply produced the document.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he brought it with some intention, some purpose. I'm asking you what he's trying to prove with this document. That a Crisis Staff exists? It exists in every municipality.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's not a matter for the witness to deal with it. Now what is the next question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Does he know that this staff was organised for the Civil Defence, for evacuation, for taking care of the population, for providing food supplies, water, electricity, public goods, for taking care of the livestock that was killed, that all of that is the duty of the Crisis Staff? Do you know about that?

A. No. The Crisis Staff which was formed in 1998 was called a Staff for Police and Military and Civilian Issues. I also have other documents, and if the Court requires, I can show you that this is what it said. It was formed in order to replace all the other authorities that had previously existed and created a state of emergency. It was responsible ¹⁸⁰⁸ for everything, even for the potatoes that Milosevic mentioned. Meanwhile, we know what it did to a civilian population where people are concerned.

This Crisis Staff is responsible for everything. It was a supreme body which had direct contacts with the top of the pyramid where the accused was. In the Crisis Staff, there were -- there was also the police chief, Vucina Jacnicevic [phoen], who is a member of the Crisis Staff and the former chairman of the municipality; Slobodan Doknic and others who took responsible for the tiniest things, not to mention the main issues. If you want other documents, I have them here in my bag and I can give them to you, where you see written "Staff for Military, Civilian, and Police Affairs."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, among the many things that you said, there is one that interests me in particular, that the Crisis Staff had contact with the top of the pyramid where the accused was. Would you like to clarify that? Very briefly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour. In 1998, there was a Municipal Assembly composed mainly of Serbs. From June 1998, this Municipal Assembly was turned into a Crisis Staff for military, police, civilian, and humanitarian affairs. All the Municipal Assembly's responsibilities were taken over, and these responsibilities were passed to this staff which was for military, police, and civilian affairs.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ¹⁸⁰⁹

Q. Let it be quite clear. It is correct that the Municipal Assembly did not work properly. It is true that they did not work properly because of well-known squabbling amongst the Serbs themselves and that this is why this council was appointed. And this temporary, provisional council appointed the Crisis Staff precisely for the protection of civilians and precisely because of the issues that I refer to. That is why these documents are totally worthless from the point of view of what he's trying to prove.

Please. This is a question I'm putting now: The list of certificates for persons that were engaged in the Territorial Defence of Vucitrn, and then there is the name and surname and then the time period in which people were engaged, for one month, from the 25th of March until the 25th of April. That is to say, people who were engaged to transport food supplies, different materials in their own vehicles. This is mobilisation by the Crisis Staff. What is being proved by this?

JUDGE MAY: What is being proved is what -- what -- what is being proved is what the document states. What the weight to be attached to it or its importance is a matter for the Trial Chamber in due course. The witness can't answer it. He's here simply to say that he's found it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And it will be perfectly open to you in your closing address to say to us that it is a worthless document, but this is not the occasion.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the occasion to the extent to which the Prosecution attaches - how should I put this? - top importance to this by presenting these documents on the overhead projector ¹⁸¹⁰ and things like that. They show a list of persons who were mobilised to transport in their own vehicles various supplies that were needed by the civilians. For example --

Q. Let me ask you another thing. This decision of the Crisis Staff, that a person who is authorised to use the financial resources of the Crisis Staff, do you know what this that you call the order issuing authority is? That is the person who actually has been authorised to use financial resources from a certain bank account for a certain company. This person has the right to sign cheques, to make payments, and who is therefore responsible for the use of these financial resources. So what is wrong with that? If the president of the municipality is the one who is authorised to use financial resources --

JUDGE MAY: What is the question for the witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is being proved by this kind of thing? The Prosecution presented this so pompously.

JUDGE MAY: That's not for the -- not for the witness to answer. We can hear argument about it in due course.

What you seem to be saying, though, is this: First of all, you say the document's a forgery, and then you're saying even if it isn't a forgery, it's unimportant. That seems to be what you're saying. Have you got now any questions now for the -- other questions for the witness? Because if not, we'll adjourn.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why are you making it impossible for me to put questions to this witness concerning documents that he brought in? ¹⁸¹¹

JUDGE MAY: What I am telling you is that it's not for him to say what importance the documents have. That is for the Prosecution in due course. He has merely brought the documents. Now, you can ask him questions about the documents, you can ask him about the contents, but what you can't do is deliver a speech on the importance or unimportance of them. That's a matter of the weight of evidence about which we'll hear in due course.

Now, we'll adjourn now. Ten minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.05 a.m.

--- On resuming at 12.17 a.m.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have limited my time to -- of cross-examination up until 1.00.

JUDGE MAY: 1.15.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You said 1.00. 1.15 is not that suitable because I have a visit.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May, I apologise. I don't know how you're going to continue with the trial and how you lead it, that's up to you, but I too wanted to raise some vital issues which are linked to many of the problems that have to do of matters of substance and not what the witness brought up, and I would need at least half an hour, 25 minutes to half an hour, to do what I consider necessary for me to be able to take part in the cross-examination.

JUDGE MAY: We can sit until quarter past. Mr. Ryneveld, any re-examination you anticipate?

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I had anticipated two questions. ¹⁸¹² However, given circumstances, I thought I could perhaps deal with that in closing.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: What we're going to do is to deal with the limited amount of time. We -- Mr. Milosevic, we can sit until 1.15. We shall allow the amicus to cross-examine up to half an hour. No more, of course.

It's up to you how long you choose to take. If you go until five to one, which you may if you wish, the amicus will then have to deal with questioning in 20 minutes. We have to balance the time between the various parties. If you want to finish earlier, of course, you'll get away earlier.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's a sort of blackmail, because you said we would be working until 1.00 today.

JUDGE MAY: No, it's not.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You said that yesterday.

JUDGE MAY: It's up to you. Now, I suggest if you want to ask further questions, you do so now and we waste no further time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but you do not have the right to restrict cross-examination, according to your own Rules, and the Prosecution had much longer for his examination. And here we're talking about a witness who has been speaking untruths from beginning to end, so we cannot get through this in 15 minutes, even under this kind of pressure, even if I defer the visit that you have allowed me after having ¹⁸¹³ curtailed it the first time. So I think that we could continue until 1.00 today and to continue on Monday when you say so, in the normal working hours.

JUDGE MAY: We have made our ruling. The practice of the Tribunal allows Trial Chambers, where extensive time is being taken up, to limit time of examination and cross-examination. Now, what's your next question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this case you have restricted the cross-examination but not the examination-in-chief. You allowed one and a half hours more for the examination-in-chief, at least.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. My next question is, and then the witness can give us yes or no answers --

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your question again?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have understood you to be conferring and that I'm not to continue with my questions until you finish conferring.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about when Ljubomir Knezevic, a correspondent of Radio Pristina and correspondent of Politika, the newspaper Politika, was kidnapped while on duty and taken to the village of Likovac at Cicova [phoen], and after a lot of torture, cutting off his ears and fingers, he ¹⁸¹⁴ expired on the 6th of May, 1999 [as interpreted]? Have you heard about that event?

A. Such a village by the name of Nikolic does not exist. I am afraid you've got wrong information.

Q. I'm talking about Ljubomir Knezevic, not Ljubomir Nikolic. The man's name was Ljubomir Knezevic.

A. I don't know anything about him.

Q. And I'm not talking about a village. I'm talking about Ljubomir Knezevic from Vucitrn, who was a correspondent of Radio Pristina and the Politika newspaper. I don't know what they're interpreting in Albanian to you, but I think I was clear. Ljubomir Knezevic is the first and last name of the correspondent of Radio Pristina and correspondent for newspaper Politika. He was from Vucitrn. He was kidnapped and taken to the village of Likovac at Cicova, and after a lot of torture, which I described, expired in his misery on the 6th of May, 1995 [as interpreted]. Do you know anything about him?

A. What date are you talking about? Because on the 2nd of May I was in prison, so I don't know what happened after that.

JUDGE MAY: But do you know anything about the death of this man?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I was in prison then. I returned in June, after the war ended, on the 19th of June. Sorry, 29th of June. At the end of June, I returned from Albania.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Do you know, then, that in Likovac, generally, there was a well-known prison where many Serbs were killed, not only from the ^{1815 BLANK PAGE 1816} Vucitrn municipality but many others too?

A. I have not heard of any prison there. I know that the Serb police and army knew about that. I know about the prison I was in and I know of another prison in Mitrovica.

Q. And do you know about the prison of the KLA in a basement of the department store in Vucitrn, your place, where Serbs were detained - not only from Vucitrn, but others too - and then were taken to be liquidated? It is a prison that was in the basement, in the cellars of the department store, when KFOR and UNMIK arrived, and that prison was held by the KLA. You were back by then. You would have to have known about that.

A. It is not true. The storehouse was used by the Serbs to find shelter during the NATO airstrikes. I know that it was used for that purpose and for sheltering the Serb population during the strikes.

Q. So you say you know nothing about the KLA prison in Vucitrn in the basement of the department store; is that what you're saying?

A. It's not true that there was a gaol there, no. I say it in full responsibility. There was no prison there, because the cellar of the department store, I said it even in my testimony, that it was used for the needs of the Serb police and army to shelter also civilians, Serb civilians. They sheltered them on the 28th of March.

Q. Do you know about another case that took place on Bajram, before the NATO aggression, on the Bajram holiday, when masked members of the KLA in Vucitrn, in front of the family, seized Behmi Muljanu [phoen] - Fehmi Muljanu [phoen] is the name. He was an employee of the republican administration of public income in Vucitrn - only for the sole fact that ¹⁸¹⁷ he didn't want to leave his workplace? Do you know about that? His daughter succeeded in pulling down the mask of one of the KLA members and she recognised a man called Delija, but Uljan Muljanu [phoen] was never found. All he found was his head, which had been cut off, a cut-off head. Do you know about that Albanian in Vucitrn?

A. Fehmi Muljani, there's no such name in Vushtrri. There's no Muljani. I've never heard this surname. I know perfectly well that there were no people of this name. Milosevic, you have erroneous information.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... or Muljanu. It makes no difference. One or the other, Munjaku or Munjanu. It might just be a one-letter difference. We can ascertain that.

A. The Fehmi Munjani does not exist. Obtain better information, because you've got false information.

Q. I didn't say Munjani. I don't know what interpretation you got. A "u," not an "i." Not Munjani, but Munjanku perhaps, an employee of the incomes department who was killed in this way. Say he doesn't exist. That's no problem.

A. I have never heard of this surname, Munjani.

Q. I say Fehmi Munjaku, an employee of the republican administration for incomes.

JUDGE MAY: We are not getting anywhere with this. We're not getting anywhere. Mr. Milosevic, in due course you can present your evidence on the point.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. He says he doesn't know about it. ¹⁸¹⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know when, in mid-1998, in the village of Dervare, at Cicavica, a forester by the name of Milan Zivic [phoen] was killed in his own home, in his house?

A. Yes, I remember this case. I was chairman of the Human Rights Council at this time, and I recorded this case and sent it to the Human Rights Council headquarters for consideration. Milan Zivic was killed solely because he had good relations with his Albanian neighbours, and he was killed by Serbs who were angry with him because of these good relations he had with Albanians.

Q. Not a single one suffered because of that. Milan Zivic was killed by terrorists, and you know that full well. You know that very well.

A. It is not true. Milan Zivic, I knew him myself. He was a poor man and he always received help from the Albanians and he moved freely wherever he went. The Albanians rather liked him, and this is why somebody killed him. You might know better who killed him.

Q. The terrorists killed Albanians too who were on good relations with the Serbs, not Serbs alone, and you know that full well. Now, do you know the following: That a reserve policeman by the name of Momcili Zivic, from Samodreza, was killed in the yard of his own house?

A. I have heard this for the first time today. He might have been killed somewhere else and then this might have been used as an alibi. This is the first time I've heard anybody being killed in Samadrexha.

Q. Perhaps that reserve policeman was killed by Serbs as well. What ¹⁸¹⁹ do you think? What do you have to say to that?

A. I don't want to make any claims about who killed him, but I don't know who killed him. This is the first time I've heard of this person.

Q. And do you know when, as soon as KFOR arrived, an active policeman Srdjan Stojkovic from Prelluzhe, was kidnapped on the bridge at Ibar which joins the two parts of Mitrovica? He was taken into the southern part of town and disappeared. Do you know anything about that?

A. I don't know, because immediately after NATO arrived, I wasn't in Kosova. And I belong to Vushtrri and not to Mitrovica.

Q. And do you know of another case? How far is Vushtrri in Vucitrn? Not to waste time on that.

In the village of Pantina, on June 1998, an eight-member family by the name of Miljkovic was kidnapped, the parents and six children, in the village of Pantina. In June 1998, an eight-member family. The name was Miljkovic; the parents and six children. You know or you don't know. Yes or no.

A. I know that there was something but that it is not true that a family was killed. Somebody -- some member of a Serbian family in Pantina indeed did fire from his own cellar and wounded two Albanians during the night. One of these wounded people is still with us, but what happened next, I don't know, because your police didn't allow us to obtain information.

Q. As far as I can see, you're well acquainted with the event that took place in Pantina. What is true that all eight members of the family were kidnapped. Just the mother and father were killed. The children ¹⁸²⁰ were later released.

Do you know about another incident --

A. First you say they were all killed and then you say they were all released.

JUDGE MAY: We will get on more quickly if you don't argue, Mr. Kadriu.

Now, Mr. Milosevic, next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about Milorad Milic from Prelluzhe, at the end of 1998, when they hit him with a sniper from the Cicavica area which is a KLA bunker was later found? Do you know about that? Just say yes or no.

A. Since 1997, no Albanian has been able to visit the village of Prelluzhe. The road has been entirely blocked, and it is still forbidden for Albanians to go through this village. However, the people -- you took the people who were killed in battle --

Q. All right. You don't know. Not to lose time. And even they are -- refused to allow you to commit those atrocities against the Serbs. You have a piece of information -- the next piece of information. The village of Mijalic, Mijalic under Mount Cicavica, two Mitrovic brothers, Ljubisa and Radivoje, are killed. And on the same day, while he was walking along the railroad, the brother of one of these, Miljan Mitrovic, a soldier who had come home on leave. After two months of torture, he managed to escape the KLA prison in Cicavica, this son. But his father and uncle were killed. Do you know about that event?

A. The truth is that one morning the OSCE found out that a soldier of ¹⁸²¹ the Yugoslav army had deserted the army with the aim of going to the area controlled by the KLA where he had his family. This family lived in the area controlled by the KLA and had never had any problems. However, how the murder happened that day when this -- this soldier had deserted and wanted to join his family, you will know this better than me, because until that day, this family had never had problems. And the OSCE knew about this and knew that the family lived in KLA-controlled territory.

Q. That's where you helped -- where you killed Ljubisa and Radivoje, both brothers, right there in the Mijalic village, KLA-controlled. Do you know about Velika Vucetic, 65 years old, a woman from Toradza, not far from your own village. She was kidnapped, raped, and she died through burning. Together with her was her daughter Milica. She was burnt too. Do you know about that event?

A. This is the first time I've heard of this. And in which place did this happen? Could you make this clearer?

Q. In the village of Toradza, not far from your own village.

A. I've never heard of this case. I've never heard of it.

Q. You never heard about it. All right. Did you hear --

A. No.

Q. Have you heard about another case, that of an Albanian, Zejnil Munaku -- Zejnil Bunjaku from Vucitrn? That the KLA in Vucitrn, immediately after KFOR's arrival, lynched him in front of a mass of Albanians who had collected there in front of the Kosejda cafe. They killed him because his wife was in fact a Serb. Do you know about that incident? ¹⁸²²

A. This is ridiculous, Your Honours. I knew Zejnil Bunjaku, and he's still alive and he works in Prishtina for UNMIK. He is still alive and living and working in Prishtina. He travels every day. Your information is wrong, Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: I haven't rebuked you before, but don't address the accused in that way.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can give you -- bring you Zejnil Bunjaku here alive.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Perhaps you can bring a Zejnil Bunjaku, probably, I'm sure, but not the one you killed. Do you remember when two brothers died, Zoran and Dejan Milic, in April 1999, by the village of Gojbulja?

A. The village of Gojbulja is mainly Serbian. And I don't know who died. Deaths do happen. And even today it's still a Serbian village. And people still die. I don't know who died there. This village is not far from Vushtrri.

Q. They were killed by a KLA bomb. They didn't die of natural causes. They were killed as a result of a KLA bomb.

A. How could the KLA throw a bomb into the village of Gojbulja when the entire village is Serbian inhabited and the police and the army control the entire area? This is a frame-up.

Q. All right. And as everything has been made up relating to the times you're talking about, do you know -- and don't just say you were young at the time, I'm asking you whether you know about this next fact, ¹⁸²³ that is to say, the demonstrations that took place in 1968 in Pristina and other towns in Kosovo and Metohija under the Albanian flag, and the tank brigade arrived from Skopje to Pristina in 1968, do you know about the demonstrators, when they went back to their demonstrations that they pledged to kill a Serb? And according to the oath they took after the demonstrations, Bora Djordjevic was killed from --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we have already dealt with the history of this thing. We're not going back now to 1968. As far as this evidence is concerned, the relevant evidence was the evidence which he gave before us. So I suggest to you, use your remaining time to ask questions about that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that after KFOR arrived, your representatives attacked the church in Vucitrn and that KFOR had to protect the church? They did not fully destroy it, but they did in Mijalic, Velika Reka, Vrnica, Banjska, and in the village of Samodreza, that is the historic church of Samodreza. Do you know of all these incidents, all of this after the arrival of KFOR. The church in Vucitrn they managed to protect, the KFOR, but in the villages Mijalic, Velika Reka, Vrnica, Banjska, and Samodreza, the historic church of Samodreza, that is, where the Serb army took holy communion before the Battle of Kosovo, all of those churches were destroyed. Do you know about that?

A. The church in Samadrexha, which is indeed an historic church, and it has a role in Albanian history because we haven't always been Muslims, ¹⁸²⁴ still exists today in Samadrexha. If you wish, send someone to visit it. It exists. It may be slightly damaged, but the church is there, and it has its roof and walls. So I'm telling you that you are receiving false information.

As for Vernica, there has never been a church there, because I come from nearby that village. The Court can look at a map to see where the churches are and see whether there was a church in Vernica or not. I'm sure that there was no church there. But there is a church in Samadrexha, and there is a church in Vushtrri, and KFOR is installed in the churchyard in Vushtrri.

Q. Otherwise in that church in Samodreza, the one that was destroyed, there are only remains of walls and that is where a garbage dump is now.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he's given his answer on this, and you've heard what he said, that the church is still there and there is not one in the other village. Let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Otherwise, you do remember that in this village of Samodreza, Ferhat Mujo killed; Danilo Milincic, a young father of two children. I hope you remember that.

A. This happened in 1981. And if the Court requires it --

JUDGE MAY: No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Out of 45 villages in the municipality of Vucitrn, ethnically Serb or mixed villages where Serbs lived until KFOR arrived, Serbs remain only in six villages now, and in the remaining 39 villages where there are no ^{1825 BLANK PAGE 1826} more Serbs left, Serb houses were either torched or destroyed or taken over by others. Is that true or not?

A. This is not true, because it's not true that there were Serbs in all these villages. There are still Serbs in Prelluzhe, Gojbula, and Grace, but if it did happen in some places that the house of a Serb were burned, it is well known that these are people who committed crimes against the Albanian population, who killed someone, who committed a massacre. So this may have been done in revenge. If somebody had killed members of your family, you would not sit with your arms akimbo.

JUDGE MAY: I told you, Mr. Kadriu, not to address the accused in that way during the trial.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I said that Serbs remain only in six villages. Of course in Prelluzhe, Grace, Gojbulja, Mijalic, Banjska and -- but I spoke about 39 villages where there are no Serbs left. As for Vucitrn, where you are vice-president of the municipality, there is not a single Serb left. Is that correct or not? Is there a Serb in Vucitrn?

A. At the moment, there is not. In the town, there is not.

Q. So you cleansed the entire town of Serbs. There's not a single Serb left.

A. We haven't cleansed it. We haven't cleansed it. They went themselves after they committed crimes against their fellow citizens and dug all those mass graves, all those acts of arson. They went before -- themselves before KFOR came. We didn't send them away. ¹⁸²⁷

JUDGE ROBINSON: Where did they go to?

A. And I can say this with the greatest sense of responsibility.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, where did they go to, the Serbs who left Vucitrn?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the KFOR troops entered, the entire Serbian population that could bear arms was under arms, and so they left the villages of Prelluzhe, Gojbula, and Grace and went to Serbia and went themselves before KFOR entered.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is not necessary to use up more time for this. You've said there is not a single Serb left in Vucitrn. That is correct, and that cannot be contested.

You talked a lot about refugees here. Do you know about this big gathering of refugees that was mentioned here in the village of Resnik, underneath Cicavica, where allegedly there were 50.000 refugees, and in February 1999, they were visited by Sadako Ogata, tens of thousands? And when she left, all of them went to their own homes. And the next day when people from the municipality of Vucitrn came, there was no one left there except for three young men in this field who said that the KLA organised this gathering so that they could introduce these people as refugees. There was no one left the next day. This was carried by the mass media at that time, after this visit. She had been fooled. Do you know about that?

A. This is not true that this happened in 1999. This happened in ¹⁸²⁸ 1998 when the Albanians were evicted from their houses, fleeing from the artillery and from the Serbian police and military forces and went to Reznik. And then there they were saved by Sadako Ogata, because if she had not come, that would have become a St. Bartholomew's Eve massacre.

Q. All right. Your concepts as to what would happen or would not have happened are pointless. I don't think we should waste time with that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking whether now at 1.00 we do finish or not.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic, you want to examine. Do you want to ask the witness about discrepancies between an earlier statement and his present evidence?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, sir, but this relates to very important things that the witness said a while ago and did not say now. These are only essential questions related to the indictment, nothing else, and also in relation to what the witness said here. There are a few points of capital importance indeed, and I don't think that the Trial Chamber would be able to view problems related to this testimony if not hearing this, so I will really make every effort to speed things up.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll certainly hear questions about that, and no doubt we can have some copies of the statements.

MR. RYNEVELD: I was just going to say, if my friend wants to focus on those, perhaps if the Court had copies of the original statement, the Court can note the discrepancies themselves without taking up further time. ¹⁸²⁹

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, if we have copies of the statement, we'll then allow you to cross-examine, if we go on until 1.20, but we'll give Mr. Milosevic another five minutes if he wants it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I want you to abide by the time that you promised yesterday. It was 1.00. Please, yesterday you said that you would finish by 1.00.

JUDGE MAY: We never said that. That was a much earlier timetable. Now, do you want to ask the witness anything more?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I don't want to extend this sitting around here, because practically you've shortened my time for cross-examination.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Tapuskovic, the quickest way to deal with this is if you would take us to the page where the point you want to make is and we can deal then briefly with it with the witness. But we can follow along with you where you say there are points to be made, and we'll try and deal with this as quickly as we can.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall make every effort, but before me I have the Serb version. It coincides with the English version. What I'm going to start with skips the first page, and this, what I'm referring to, is on the second page. May I start with my questions?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please just give yes or no answers so that we could do what we're supposed to do in the next 20 minutes. ¹⁸³⁰ Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] During your testimony, you said that the secret police brought you into custody several times and that they did certain unpleasant things.

A. Yes, that's correct. The police -- the MUP took us into custody. Please let me give the explanation. I want to explain to you --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, we are under pressure of time, and therefore please keep the answers short.

Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You know that many secret student groups were established.

A. There were no secret student groups. There were -- we were students that were prosecuted by the secret police only because of wanting Kosova to become a republic, and some of us went to gaol for 15 years.

Q. Please just answer yes or no.

A. They were verbal sentences, absurd ones.

Q. Did you join the movement for the freedom of the Albanian region? Did you or did you not?

A. When I was a student, I was a member of the illegal movement demanding Kosova to become a republic, but our activity was only through demonstration. That was the way we expressed our discontent.

Q. Did this movement operate in Kosovo, Macedonia, and everywhere else where Albanians lived?

A. I know that this movement operated in Kosova. That is what I know. This was a student movement. ¹⁸³¹

Q. Was its primary objective to have an Albania in which the entire Albanian people would live?

A. Our aim then was to advance the status of Kosova from a region into a republic in the context of Yugoslavia.

Q. I would like to point out one thing to you. You told the investigator that this movement operated in Kosovo and in Macedonia and everywhere else where Albanians lived, and that in addition to that, in addition to Kosova becoming a republic, your objective was to have an Albania where the entire Albanian people would live. That is what you stated on the 2nd of December, 2000. Is that true or not?

A. That does not mean that there weren't other organisations that had such aspirations, but I'm talking here about the student organisation where I was a member. I cannot rule out the possibility for the existence of such organisations.

Q. No. You said that that was your dream.

A. No. You are wrong. Our dream would be to unite Kosova with Albania.

Q. That is sufficient for me. Could you tell me: Drenica, as a geographical term, does it include one quarter of Kosovo, or how much, in your estimate?

A. I can't give you the size in kilometres. It is a region situated in the centre of Kosova. I don't have any idea in terms of kilometres how big that is. I don't know how big that is. I was never interested to find that out.

Q. If it's not one quarter of Kosovo, how big could it be? Could you ¹⁸³² tell us that?

A. I told you, I don't know how big that region is. I may give you the names of towns that are found in that region, but I can't give you numbers or sizes. I can't do that. I can't speak in kilometres.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You know what happened on the 28th of February, in the morning, on the 28th of February, 1998? You know what happened then? What did happen then on the 28th of February, 1998?

A. On the 28th of February, 1998, I am repeating here for the umpteenth time that Serb police and army attacked the villages of Cirez and Likovc [phoen], and they killed many people, many civilians there. Likoshan, sorry. All were civilians.

Q. Do you know that on that day, in your house, you heard artillery fire in your own house? Is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct, more than correct.

Q. You encountered some people after that, and they told you that Serb forces had rounded the villagers of Likoshan, Cirez, Baks. "According to what they told us, on the previous day there was an exchange of gunfire between the KLA and Serbs, and on that occasion in Cirez two Serb policemen were killed." Is that correct?

A. Once I heard these shots, I went up to Dubofc village, which is found in Vushtrri municipality, and from the people who were fleeing the police encirclement, they told me that there people were killed by Serb forces, someone, but they didn't know who that was. They didn't know what ¹⁸³³ really happened.

Q. No, no. But the Serb forces came to that village only on the next day, after two policemen had been killed; is that correct?

A. I don't know. I am repeating. I didn't know who got killed. I just got the news from the people who were fleeing the scene, who had left their own homes and were heading towards Vushtrri.

Q. What I said to you is what you said to the investigators on the 2nd of December, 2000. What I just said to you now, that is what you said then, the way you had heard it read by me.

A. I don't know -- I don't see the point here. I do not deny that I didn't know who was killed, whether I found out that ten members were killed from Ahmeti family and some others from Sejdia family, but then I didn't know.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, we may be able to make better progress if you simply read out the parts of the statement to the witness, those on which you want to rely.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is what I'd like to read to the witness. He said the following on that occasion: "I first heard of the KLA in 1991." That's what he said here. "But only in 1997 they were in a position to organise themselves sufficiently and start guerrilla attacks against the Serb army and police. However, only in 1998 the KLA really became a true force, because they managed to take the area, the entire area, that of Drenica."

Q. Is that correct, that the entire area of Drenica was taken by the KLA? ¹⁸³⁴

A. I am repeating what I already said. On the 28th of November, 1997, the Kosovo Liberation Army became a public phenomenon.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... the passage, Mr. Tapuskovic. It may be sensible to go on.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now, why am I asking this? On page 7, in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth paragraph, you said to the investigators: "Earlier on, the war between the Serbs and the KLA broke out in Drenica in 1998. I think it was sometime around the month of June. I had to register all the refugees who came to Vucitrn, from the area of Drenica. The municipalities of Vucitrn and Mitrovica, there was a flood of refugees that was coming in. I think that from the war zone, about 40.000 refugees came."

And this was in 1998. That is not what was happening in 1999, when people set out to Macedonia and Albania, but in 1998. From that area, where there were skirmishes between the KLA and the army, 40.000 refugees fled from that area, and you registered them and you received them in Vucitrn, where there was peace. Is that correct or not?

A. It is correct that during June, July 1998, the Albanian population of these areas had become prey to artillery fire by the Serb army and police. Therefore, they were obliged, because of this fighting - because now even the KLA had entered into the war with the Serb forces - because of the fighting, the population had started to leave in the face of the violence that was being exercised by the Serb forces that entered from one house to another. They came and found shelter in three municipalities: ^{1835 BLANK PAGE 1836} Prishtina, Vushtrri, and Prizren.

Q. Earlier, you said that because of this war between the KLA and the army and the police, that the population fled and came to Vucitrn. That is what you said in your witness statement earlier on.

A. I don't know how you have taken the statement. The truth is that the population were forced to leave and to flee their homes and settle in these three municipalities. Because numerous forces, with tanks, armoured cars, had encircled the villages; therefore, they had to flee and settle in the above-mentioned communes: Prishtina, Vushtrri, and Mitrovica [as interpreted].

Q. Thank you. You said earlier on that the period between 1998 until February 1999 was relatively peaceful, however, that there were clashes between the Serbs and the KLA; is that correct, in that period as well?

A. That is correct. There was fighting.

Q. All right. Then the bombing started. And now we are coming to the 1st of April, when, together with your family, you set out. You said what you did with your family. They boarded a bus, but you went to Gornja Studime with your friends. Is that right?

A. No, that's not true. I did not board the bus at all. My family did. Then they got down again, because the bus was overcrowded with people.

Q. That is what I said: Your family boarded a bus.

A. I didn't need to take a bus to Studime.

Q. You went to Gornja Studime?

A. That day I went through Studime e Eperme and settled in between ¹⁸³⁷ Veseli and Sesekov village, at a friend of mine's house who is a professor.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May, could he just answer me?

Q. You said earlier on that you went to Gornja Studime in order to spend the night there in the house of Musa Terbunja, who was commander of the KLA for that area. "This area was under KLA control and then we went to Cecile, where the KLA had some kind of headquarters." Is that correct, what you said a while ago?

JUDGE MAY: Where is -- just a moment. Just a moment.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 12, page 13. Now I'm going to move on to page 13. This is the end of page 12.

Q. Is that correct or not?

MR. KAY: It's in the middle of page 13 in the English, which is a different type set out.

A. In Studime village I went. It was the 2nd of April when I went there. There I only passed. I was there in passing. I rested a while. There was no staff of KLA there in Studime e Eperme. From there I went to another village, Vesekovc, in a neighbourhood between the two villages that I mentioned, at a friend of mine, a professor.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May, I have so little time left. Please, may I proceed?

JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. What your statement says, Mr. Kadriu, is that you stayed at the house of Musa Terbunja, who was the KLA commander of the area. Did you ¹⁸³⁸ stay with the KLA commander?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that night. How could the KLA commander come to that house?

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]...

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said no. I stayed there for a while and then I went on my way.

JUDGE MAY: Just help us how it is that your statement apparently includes the statement that you stayed with the KLA commander.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The KLA commander was not then -- he was not in Studime e Eperme. I met him, as I did many other people, on the way, and then I continued my way. I had to go somewhere else to pass the night, whereas that commander was one of the people I met.

JUDGE MAY: Now, perhaps another passage.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm moving on to the next paragraph.

Q. "I remained there for the following month," not two days. "I stayed there for another month. The houses in Cecelija were full of refugees from different places, because this area was considered to be safe, as it was under KLA control." And the last sentence there: "I don't know the exact number, but I think that in different small villages in this area under the control of the KLA, there were over 30.000 refugees." Is that the way you described it then?

A. Yes, that is correct. Over 30.000 refugees were there, and I was one of them.

Q. Thank you. I'm going to omit the next paragraph, but I'll come ¹⁸³⁹ back to it. And then what follows is the following. You're putting it this way: The KLA resisted the Serbs there where they were protecting these refugees. How did they do that? That's what I'm asking you. First of all, is this correct?

A. For some months on end, the KLA tried not to let the Serb forces penetrate where the civilian population was housed. That is a fact. But they were unable, because of shortages of munitions, to do that, so they said, "We are unable to protect the civilian population who are there; therefore, they need to find a solution."

Q. All right. That's what you explained last time as well. Now, before I move on, I would like to go back to this other paragraph here on that same page. Yesterday, here in Court, you said that you saw those two MiGs above Popovo. Can you explain this in greater detail? How did you see those two MiGs?

A. You're wrong, either the translation is wrong. I didn't say I saw the MiGs. I only heard the detonation. In Popova, Sahit Surdulli had seen the MiGs. He's an economist. He stayed as a refugee in Popova, and he had seen those MiG planes with his own eyes throwing the bombs over this village, as they did in Bajgora village too. I didn't see them with my own eyes. I was in Samadrexha and Cecelia then, in that place between these two villages. I heard the noise.

Q. All right. Thank you.

A. This is what I must have stated in my statement.

Q. But on the 2nd of May, which means when you were in another place, with Sllakofc with your friend, Fadil Beqiri: "I went there because ¹⁸⁴⁰ Fadil's nephew, Faruk Beqiri, a KLA soldier, was to be buried there," although you said you went to attend the funeral of a woman who died at the front line - and that's why I'm asking you - from Serb fire.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Your point will be lost on us if you don't tell us what page.

MR. KAY: Perhaps I can in English. It's page 14, Judge, in the middle.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have the Serbian version in my hands. That's the problem. The witness said yesterday that he attended the funeral of a woman, but he says here that he attended the funeral of the nephew, et cetera, who --

JUDGE MAY: We can read that. We can read that. Why don't you go on.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What I'm interested is was how far that front line was from the place you were at to attend the funeral. How far was the front line from you and from the rest of the refugees?

A. The Serb army had captured some positions in Bajgora Mountains and had come closer to the villages where we were, but at about 12.00 the burial ceremony took place. The nephew of Fadil was buried there. At the same time, the refugees who were settled in villages in which the Serb army had started to deploy had begun to evacuate from those villages, so while the burial ceremony was going on, they kept moving away from these villages.

Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you arrived in Cecile - and you went ¹⁸⁴¹ because you had to go - and when you arrived in Cecile, there were KLA soldiers there, too. And that's the next paragraph. There were KLA soldiers there, weren't there?

A. Yes. Some soldiers who were leaving at that moment. I saw them leaving. On the opposite side, the population took to the Shala hills and mountains, on the opposite of the column. That is a fact.

Q. So you said that you had the possibility of going with members of the KLA, but you took to the hills; is that right?

A. Yes. I did have the chance of going in the opposite direction, but I didn't because I was with people with whom I had shared all my problems in the past month, and it would not have been good for me, as chairman of the human rights council, to abandon these people.

Q. So you went to the top of the hill, by Cecilia, is that right? You went to the top of the hill and went further on?

A. The entire column went in that direction, to the top of the hill. And when we arrived there, Serbian forces started machine-gun fire from the village of Skocna, at the convoy. There, there were two KLA soldiers.

Q. But that's not what you said. You said that you came across soldiers there, three KLA soldiers, in fact, who told you to go to Gornja Studime and to take a different route. They instructed you. They sent you there. That's what you said before.

A. They merely guided the column to go away from the point where they could be seen by Serbian forces, because Serbian forces were firing at the column. And they told them to change their route so they wouldn't be seen by Serbian forces, and they didn't continue that way. ¹⁸⁴²

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, can you wind up in five minutes, please, because we have already gone five minutes over the 20 past. So just find the main points.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just the main points.

Q. So this convoy of 30.000 people went on, and while it was going onwards, you didn't mention that anybody shot at you, but some people arrived and told us that by the transformer station nearby Gornja Sebenia [phoen], that some people were killed by Serb fire. That's what you said. You didn't say that anybody actually shot at the column there.

A. Serbian forces continually fired on the convoy from Skocna and so those two KLA soldiers were positioned there to point people into a -- in a direction away from the one where they could be seen. When we arrived at Studime e Eperme, a girl was hit from firing from the hills, and we were continually under the fire of Serbian forces. The convoy was so long that you couldn't find out what was happening at the beginning and at the end, but we were always under fire. It was a great crowd of people, 30.000 people on the move.

Q. All right. To speed things up, what happened was: As you approached the Serb forces, you stuck out a white flag; is that right? You put out a white flag?

A. I didn't put out the white flag. You must get a better translation. There was somebody else who was carrying the white flag at the head of the column, and I gave them first the name and surname of the person yesterday.

Q. I didn't say that you were carrying it. You went to the head of ¹⁸⁴³ the column and you learnt there that this white flag was being displayed because you might encounter Serb forces; is that it?

A. Yes, that's right. It was put in a tub full of gravel. The Serbs were only 300 metres away from the place where the white flag was, and they could see the white flag.

Q. And it was only then that the Serbs arrived, only after that?

A. No. No. People had started to settle in and to make themselves -- dig themselves in at that area, and meanwhile Cecelia had started to burn. Meanwhile, Serbian forces had started to arrive at 2100 hours. I explained that too.

Q. I won't insist on that. But it was from there that the Serb forces took you to the prison in the gymnasium, in the gym hall. Up until then, the Serbs hadn't arrived then, were they? They arrived at that moment.

A. But we were surrounded by Serbian forces on all sides. And also Serbian civilians from Prelluzhe, not just from military forces and police forces. The entire convoy was surrounded.

Q. Yes, I agree, but up until then, there were no Serbs. Who was with you until that time? The KLA.

A. The convoy -- the KLA, between Samadrexha, and Studime e Eperme, had the two last soldiers that you can see on the video, and nobody else arrived at the convoy.

Q. That's precisely what I wanted to say. You said that there were no KLA soldiers, whereas they escorted you up to that spot, and on the film that you brought, you could see the members of the KLA approaching ¹⁸⁴⁴ you.

A. No. The two KLA members you can see on the video, they were in the place between Studime e Eperme and Cecelia village. After that, they left. They didn't come with us. They told the column of people to change course because they didn't want to be hit by the snipers who were -- kept firing at us. The column kept moving. We were perhaps the last in the row.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have two more questions, with the Court's indulgence, if I may.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, quickly.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. First, when you went to prison, you were questioned there to see whether you were perhaps a member of the KLA, because -- but once it was clarified that you weren't a suspect, you were released and you went off in the direction you left in; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: Just answer very briefly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were accused of terrorism. We were all released with the exception of one whose fate I don't know. All of us, young and old, were accused of terrorism.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now I should like to read out something else you said when you were at the border itself, when you were at the very border, and that is paragraph 3, page 19. You say: "We ran along the main road. On one side were the Serb bunkers. We were lucky because NATO planes were flying over ¹⁸⁴⁵ the area and bombing it so that the Serbs didn't touch us." That's what you said at the time.

Is that true, because of NATO's bombing that was taking place, that you fared as you did?

MR. KAY: Page 20, English.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even yesterday I wanted to explain it, but because of the time restraint, I didn't. On the way from Prizren to -- from Shtime to the border, we were escorted by Serb paramilitaries who used us as cannon fodder.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm not asking you that. At the border, when you were at the border itself, because of NATO bombing which you confirm here --

A. Yes.

Q. -- you went on your way and that the Serbs didn't touch you because of that.

A. The Serbs, while we were walking from Zhur village to the customs point, some Serbs tried to waylay us. They were soldiers in uniforms. They tried to do that, but the NATO aeroplanes moved constantly, were flying constantly. I think that was the reason for our salvation. Otherwise, we would have been looted or something else would have happened to us.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I would have a lot more assistance to give to the Trial Chamber if the circumstances were different, but if you say so, very well. I'll end there. ¹⁸⁴⁶

JUDGE MAY: We will exhibit this document which will be -- if we can have a number for it.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 50.

JUDGE MAY: And, Mr. Tapuskovic, if there are other passages which you wish to draw our attention to, then hand in a document suitably marked and we will take it into account.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. That was one of the things I wanted to make sure, is that that got an exhibit number. Second thing is I will forego any re-examination. I had a number of issues. Time constraints, I won't do it.

However, in fairness to the accused and the Court, we did indicate yesterday that we would have a further meeting concerning witnesses. I will now propose to hand out, perhaps even after we adjourn, to the various parties the new witness list, and I think I should advise the Court that it is our plan for Monday morning to start with Mr. Sakir Tac, and Mr. Saxon, who has joined us in the courtroom today, with the Court's permission, will be leading that witness on Monday, followed by Mr. Loku who has been moved up on the list. So that is the immediate change. The rest will be self-evident.

I think those are the issues that I wanted to raise. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. We will adjourn now until half past nine on Monday.

Mr. Kadriu, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to ¹⁸⁴⁷ the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour

[The witness withdrew]

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day

of March, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.