⁴⁵⁰⁷

Wednesday, 8 May 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: AVNI NEBIHU

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the witness will be giving evidence for the events that occurred in Urosevac municipality again, so the Kosovo atlas map is on page 12.

Examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Can you please state your full name to the Court, sir.

A. My name is Avni Nebihu, Ferizaj municipality, Sojevo village. I was born on 12 April, 1956.

Q. Are you an Albanian and a Muslim?

A. Yes. I am Albanian from Kosova.

Q. What is your profession?

A. I work in the transportation.

Q. Mr. Nebihu, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the Prosecutor on May the 2nd, 1999, and again on 20 November, 2001; is that correct? ⁴⁵⁰⁸

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And at that time, you provided them with two statements; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And on the 5th of February this year, 2002, you attended a meeting and you appeared before a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal, and you were provided with an Albanian copy, a copy in the Albanian language of your statement. Is that also correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And you reviewed the statements at that time?

A. Yes, I did.

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the Prosecution submits the two statements under Rule 92 bis.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 139.

MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the following: The witness comes from the village of Sojevo in the municipality of Urosevac. He testifies that starting with the NATO airstrikes on 24 March 1999, Serb forces were moving along the main road and firing in the direction of the houses in his village. Four to five days later, the Serb army arrived at the witness's village and took up positions around the school and at the mosque. The witness saw four large tanks and at least three APCs, a large number of soldiers wearing olive-green colour uniforms. Within 30 minutes of their ⁴⁵⁰⁹ arrival, the soldiers started shooting in the air. They were later joined by paramilitaries, and the witness believes the army and the paramilitaries were working in concert.

Two days after they entered the village, the soldiers started forcibly removing people from their homes. Three APCs and soldiers on foot arrived at the witness's house. The witness started to move his family towards the woods and was followed by an APC which constantly shot into the air. Approximately 400 villagers gathered in the woods. The soldiers set fire to all the houses, and the villagers in the woods were soon surrounded by paramilitaries who robbed them and left. Most of the villagers headed for Urosevac using the back roads. The witness and his family stayed in Urosevac for about a week, during which the army kept a very tight control of the city. The witness's brother came to the house where the witness was staying because soldiers had entered the house where he was staying, beat everybody up, lined them up for execution, and forced them to leave the house. The witness attempted to return to his village, but he was told that his uncle and his uncle's wife had been killed and so decided to return to Urosevac. On April 12, the witness and his family went to the train station and were taken to Djeneral Jankovic. When the witness and others disembarked from the train, Serb army and police were present. They directed them to walk down the railway tracks into Macedonia. That's all, Your Honours. No further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: ⁴⁵¹⁰

Q. [Interpretation] In your first statement, you claim that in your village there were about 200 houses, and in every one of these houses there were nine or ten people, as you had put it. Is that to say that the population of your village was between 1.800 and 2.000? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me the exact date when you left your village together with the other villagers.

A. We left the village on 6th of March. I'm sorry, on the 6th of April.

Q. In your second statement, you claim that the village of Sojevo, on that day when you left the village, that actually about 500 villagers left together with you. Is that right? Is that what you said?

A. I can't hear well. I can't hear interpretation.

JUDGE MAY: Can we just check.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can hear.

JUDGE MAY: Did you hear the last question?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat it now?

JUDGE MAY: The question was that, in your statement, you referred to leaving the village with about 500 other villagers, and you were asked, "Is that correct?"

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Also, you said that you know that only 11 villagers stayed back in the village when you left. Is that right?

A. I said that 11 inhabitants were killed. I didn't say 11 stayed ⁴⁵¹¹ behind. There were more left behind.

Q. How many stayed behind?

A. Some didn't manage to flee, some stayed, and 11 were killed.

Q. How many stayed behind?

A. No one remained behind in the village.

Q. No one stayed behind in the village? Five hundred people left together with you. Awhile ago, we said that the population was about 2.000. And what happened with the remaining 1.500 villagers?

A. I didn't say 1.000 or 2.000, but I said we were a group who left the neighbours'. Together with the guests we had, we were about 500 people.

Q. Yes. But at the outset, we stated that in the village there were about 1.800 -- between 1.800 and 2.000 people. If 500 left in your group, what -- and nobody stayed behind in the village, what happened to the remaining 1.300 or 1.500 who are missing?

A. In my neighbourhood, we were about 500 people, and the regular army drove us out of our homes, and we had to leave. And they started to set fire on the houses. We were about 500 metres away. We stopped a little while further.

JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you and see that there is no confusion here. The point which is being made is that you left the village with 500 or so. Can you tell us what happened to the others from the village?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village is spread out. It has several neighbourhoods. I am testifying about what happened in my ⁴⁵¹² neighbourhood. I have no information about other neighbourhoods, but I can tell you about what happened in my own neighbourhood.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did anybody stay behind from your neighbourhood?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only two people remained behind. In another neighbourhood close by, there were two other people who were left behind.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can we now establish what happened with the remaining 1.500 villagers? You're talking about 11, you're talking about five, you're talking about 500. What happened with the remaining 1.500? The population of the village was between 1.800 and 2.000.

JUDGE MAY: He's already explained that in fact he's dealing with his neighbourhood alone. That's what he can give evidence about. He says he can't give evidence about the rest of the village.

JUDGE KWON: Let me clarify this matter. Mr. Nebihu, you wrote in your statement that Sojevo is a village with about 200 houses. How many houses were there in your neighbourhood?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 30, 31, 32.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Again our figures do not match, because if it's 30 houses, then about 300 people could have left with him according to the data the witness has provided. Now we've started dividing villages in terms of neighbourhoods, closer and further neighbourhoods.

A. We did not divide the villages, but they are, the village is like ⁴⁵¹³ that; it is separated in different neighbourhoods.

Q. All right. Is it correct that when you gave your first statement you confirmed that you would testify only about what happened to you or about events that you witnessed yourself? Is that right?

A. I will testify only to what I went through and to what I saw with my own eyes. That's it.

Q. All right. Why are you then testifying about Ekrem Etemi and Naser Etemi and their alleged wounding when you never saw their wounding and you never saw who wounded them and you never saw where they were wounded?

A. We were in the village. They were killed on the main road, Gjilan-Ferizaj. A military car of yours stopped them. It was a white car. The people were dressed in military uniforms, and they asked them about the names, and -- and then they shot them with a pistol. The villagers who were there with them, nearby, took them, that is, their buddies. They wanted to take them to Macedonia. Naser managed to be taken to Macedonia. The other one was returned -- was taken to Prishtina.

Q. Well, awhile ago you said they were killed. In your statement, you said that they were wounded. Now, again, you're saying that they were wounded.

A. I said they were shot but not shot dead. I met Naser in Stankovac after he was recovered from the wounds, and I saw with my own eyes the bullet that they had taken out of his bullet [as interpreted]. But with Ekrem, I never saw him again.

Q. But you know where he left; right? ^{4514 BLANK PAGE 4515}

A. Yes.

Q. They left on that day. Ekrem was taken to Pristina hospital; the other one to Macedonia.

Q. In your first statement, you claim that you were standing in front of your house when the soldiers entered your brother's house. In your second statement, you claim that you were standing in the yard and that you were actually watching what was going on. Where were you actually standing?

A. We were in the yard when they entered the house. And two officers they were. They said to him, "Hold up your hands." We were there, watching what was going on. Then they drove out of his house my brother and all of us, and we left all together. We gathered about 500 away from that place [as interpreted]. Then we saw our houses set on fire immediately.

Q. All right. We'll get back to that later. Where were you standing then?

JUDGE MAY: He said he was in the yard.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your first statement, on page 3, paragraph 5, you still claim that when you saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you entered your own house, and you said to your family that you had to go. Is it correct that that is what you stated, that that's the way things happened?

A. Yes. This is what happened. The soldiers entered the yard and ⁴⁵¹⁶ told us, "What are you waiting for? Why don't you leave?" And we asked them, "Where are we going?" They said, "Do you expect us to tell you where you should go?" That was all.

Q. Let us clarify precisely what you've said just now. Awhile ago, I put a question to you. I said in your statement you claimed that when you saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you entered your own house and you said to your family that you had to go. Is that the way it was? That is to say, when you saw this -- this is your claim: When you saw what was going on in the neighbouring houses, you entered your house and you said to your family that you had to go. Was that the way it was?

A. No. That is not true. No. No, I didn't say that.

Q. All right. Take a look at this paragraph here, in the middle of the penultimate paragraph. Before that, you actually describe what was going on and what your brother said to you, that they had searched him, et cetera.

"In the immediate neighbourhood of my house, there were six other houses, and they went to another house. The soldiers were throwing families out of their houses." And now I'm telling you what you claim you did not say. "When I saw what was going on, I decided not to wait. I went in and told my family that we had to leave. I started to move my family out of the house, and we headed towards the woods." So you say here that when you saw what was going on, you went into the house and said to your family that you had to leave. That is what you claim now that you had not said.

In the other statement, you say that the soldiers came and said to ⁴⁵¹⁷ you, "What are you waiting for? Why don't you leave your house?" Now, what is correct out of all of this? Did you see what was happening and did you enter the house and tell your family you had to leave or was it the soldiers who came to you and said, "What are you waiting for? Go." These are two completely different things that you've been saying in these two statements.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with it. Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I saw my brother taken out of his house, I saw two armoured cars stopped in front of the yard. Then the brother came to my home, accompanied by the soldiers, and an officer told me, "Why have you shut the door?" I didn't say a word. And he said, "Go away. Why are you waiting any more?" That was how it was.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you explain the difference between these two statements of yours?

JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If you want to make a comment, you can do so.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your first statement, you say that you left the house with your family and went -- and took to the woods, headed towards the woods; and in your second statement, you say that you were escorted by the soldiers who had ordered you to leave and that they in fact took you to Poljane where there was a group of paramilitaries. Which of the two is correct; what you said in your first statement or what you said in your second?

A. It was the regular army that drove us out of our homes. Then they ⁴⁵¹⁸ escorted us as the villagers who were getting together, with the armoured cars, about 500 metres away, and then they set fire to our houses. After an hour, the paramilitaries came, and we took a position further, and from there, we watched our houses burning. Then after that, they divided us in two groups; the women and children in one group, the males in another group. They took away the valuables, jewellery, necklaces, whatever the women had. You know yourself.

And we happened to know some one of them, and I addressed him. He told us, "Don't talk to me in Albanian. Talk to me in Serbian, because they may understand what you are saying." [As interpreted]

Q. All right. I'm going to ask you a few direct questions now because I don't feel that we're understanding each other with respect to the differences in your statement. So I'm going to read out the passage that relates to the same event in your first and second statement, and perhaps that will be easier for you. You'll be able to answer my questions more easily.

For example, in the first statement, you say the following: "In the night when NATO first started its bombing, I went outside together with other members of my family to watch it. I had quite a number of guests staying in my house at the time."

I have been asked to read more slowly. "That was on the 24th of March. It was around midnight, and we were in the yard. I heard shots coming from the direction of the main road running to Urosevac. I saw some inflammatory bullets coming from that direction, and it appeared as if they were shooting in the direction ⁴⁵¹⁹ of the houses on both sides and also up in the air. I wasn't able to see who was doing the shooting."

In your second statement, you say the following: "When the NATO bombing started, the Serb forces were moving along the main road and were shooting in the direction of the houses in my village. Some of the bullets hit the houses belonging to my cousins, but there were no casualties."

So in your first statement, you describe NATO bombing, and you saw these illuminating bullets and the anti-aircraft artillery, although you also say that you thought they were shooting in the direction of the houses. In your second statement, you say that the forces were moving along the main road and that they were shooting at the houses and that, "a certain number of bullets hit the houses belonging to my cousins although there were no casualties." Now, which of those two statements is correct; what you said in the first or what you said in your second statement?

A. I contend that both statements are the same. After the NATO bombing started, they shelled the village all the night. And that's how it is.

JUDGE MAY: I suppose the question can be put in this way: In your first statement, you did not mention the bullets hitting your cousin's house. Was there any reason for that, as to why you didn't mention it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I -- I believe that in the first statement they were only asking me about that day on which we left, after the 24th. ⁴⁵²⁰

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Let me ask you about the second difference that I think is far more essential. In your first statement, you talk about one of the soldiers, whom you identify as being Novica Mijovic and who helped you there. But that's not the point, nor is the point that you make no mention of him in the second statement.

I'm going to read a portion of your first statement, on page 4, where you say the following: "Thanks to Novica, we are still alive. There were about 400 of us villagers at this point. One of the soldiers told us that we had to separate the men from the women. It was then that Novica told us in Albanian not to talk to him in Serbian because they would understand what we were talking about. He told us to speak to him only in Albanian. They told us to sit on the ground in a very tight group. There were in total about 30 to 40 of these soldiers." And then we come to my question. I have read the whole paragraph so that you can get the context. Then you say: "Novica spoke to one of the other soldiers and had them change their minds about separating the men and the women." Full stop. "We were allowed to stay together." You say that in your first statement. So in your first statement, you say this, explaining who helped you, and you go on to explain that they did not separate you, and you clearly state that you were allowed to stay together. In your second statement, the last paragraph on page 1, you say the following: "When the paramilitaries surrounded us and stopped us, we were close to the village of Grlica in the woods. Their first words were women and children to separate from men." Then you go on to ⁴⁵²¹ state the following: "When they separated us--" that is to say you claim that they did in fact separate you -- "the women were robbed of their money and jewellery and they even took a ring from my brother. The soldiers kept us there for 15 to 20 minutes before they all left," and so on. "We did not know where to go. We had heard..." Et cetera. So in your first statement, you claim that they did not separate you and that thanks to this man whom you mention, a Serb by the name of Novica Mijovic, they let you stay together. They didn't separate you, you were allowed to stay together. However, in your second statement, you say that they did separate you and that then they proceeded to take your money and jewellery. So the point that has to be clarified is: Did they separate you or did they not separate you? Are you clear on the fact that in your first statement you state that they did not separate you and in your second you state that they did separate you? Now, can there be any misunderstanding there about giving two quite different statements? Are you clear on the fact that you in fact gave two quite different statements?

JUDGE MAY: The witness should be given copies of these statements so that he can see -- so that he can see. You're putting that they're different. He should have copies so that he can tell what's in them. Has he got copies? Very well. I wonder if the usher would help him to find his way round.

The first -- the first statement, it's on page 4 in the English.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ^{4522 BLANK PAGE 4523}

Q. The last sentence of that second paragraph states: "We were allowed to stay together. They changed their minds about separating the men and the women, and we were allowed to stay together." That's what it says.

And also, in the last paragraph on page 1 of the second statement, it says: "When they separated us --"

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's start with the first statement. Mr. Nebihu, can you find the passage which begins, "Thanks to Novica, we are still alive"?

JUDGE KWON: That seems to me page 5, second paragraph in the Albanian statement.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what idea he had, but he helped us as far as he could.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And everything -- and everything that I said, that he was intending to help us, and that he did his best to help us.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you read that paragraph and the next one which begins, "Three or four of these soldiers went to every person in the group and demanded our money. They also took the jewellery from the women." Can you find those two paragraphs? Just read them for the moment. Just read the two over to yourself and then you'll be asked some questions about another statement.

Have you read those two?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. ⁴⁵²⁴

JUDGE MAY: Now you're going to be shown your second statement. Have you got the second statement there? The first page of the full statement.

MS. ROMANO: It's page 3, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Page 3 of the Albanian. Would you find the paragraph which begins, "When the paramilitaries surrounded us and stopped us, we were close to the village of Grlica, in the woods." If you'd read that paragraph.

JUDGE KWON: It's the first paragraph of page 3 in the Albanian statement.

JUDGE MAY: Maybe if you give the statement -- if the usher gives the statement to the Prosecution, they can find it, or perhaps the Registrar can help.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it. I found it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just read that paragraph. Now, the point which is being made is that in the first statement, you say that Novica spoke to one of the other soldiers and had them change their minds about separating the men and the women. You were allowed to stay together. And then you go on to say that, after that, you were robbed, you and the women.

In the second statement, it says that, "Their first words were, women and children to separate from men. When they separated us, the women were robbed of their money."

And the point which is being made is that in the first statement it appears that you are saying you were all allowed to stay together. In ⁴⁵²⁵ the second, it said -- it appears to say that you were separated.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said they separated us, that is, men from women, that they looted the women, that they robbed them of their jewellery. Then they took away my brother's ring. Someone said, "Give it away, because they might be problems from us." And then we asked, "Where are we going now? Where should we go now?" And he said to us, "You should go in the direction of Ferizaj." We couldn't go to Skopje because we were on foot. That's why we went to Ferizaj.

JUDGE MAY: No. Concentrate on the separation. Did you remain separated, the men from the women?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we were separated.

JUDGE MAY: And did there come a time when you were together again or not, or did you remain separated?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment came when we got together again.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. The usher can return. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Have we cleared this up then? Did they separate you or not?

A. They separated us. I think I've said it three times now.

Q. Why then in your first statement did you say that they did not separate you?

A. I didn't say that they didn't separate us.

Q. You said, "We were allowed to stay together." ⁴⁵²⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think that's fair to the witness, in light of the answer that he gave the Presiding Judge. It's a question of sequence. What he said is that they were separated first and they came together at some time after that. I think essentially in these matters of discrepancies, once the explanation is given, the matter should end. It is for the Trial Chamber to determine what weight we will attach to the witness's evidence in the light of the discrepancy and the explanation given. Once the explanation has been given, I think you should move on and leave the rest to us to determine the weight to attach to the evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. If that is your job, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, in the first statement, you say on that same page but one paragraph further on, that: "The soldiers then left us. Novica allowed us to go to our vehicles and tractors. We then immediately left, and together we headed towards Urosevac using the backroads." In your second statement, at the end of that same paragraph where you had been talking about how you were separated and looted, robbed, at the end of that paragraph, you said that you went on foot and that a group had a vehicle but that you yourself went on foot. You said, "I was on foot."

Now, did you go to your vehicles and tractors? Because you say ⁴⁵²⁷ you went up to your vehicles and tractors and then took the backroads to Urosevac, whereas in your second statement you say you went on foot. So which of the two is true?

A. The truth is that personally, I didn't have a vehicle, but some of the villagers had their carts and tractors, and they went and took them, and some of us were on foot.

Q. All right. At the end of your first statement -- or, rather, let me start with your second statement. You say on that morning -- this is towards the end of your second statement. It's a short paragraph, and you say: "That morning, at the station, there were no uniformed policemen unless they were in civilian clothes, but there was movement of military and police on the road close to the station. Inside the station, nobody was telling us what to do."

That is that whole paragraph. Now, in the last paragraph of your first statement, this is what you say: "We all went to the train station early in the morning. There were a lot of people at the station. There were four rail cars. No one asked for documentation or tickets. There were a lot of policemen in their regular police uniforms. They didn't do anything to the people going to the train station. We got onto the train which took us to Djeneral Jankovic. Once there, we got off the train. The police there directed us to walk down the railway tracks into Macedonia. We were never asked for documentation. We still have our documents."

So that is that particular paragraph. Now, my question for you is the following: In the second statement, you say quite resolutely that ⁴⁵²⁸ there were no uniformed policemen. In your first statement, you state there were a lot of policemen in their regular police uniforms. Can you explain that, too, that difference?

A. The truth is that there were policemen. I mean when we got onto the train. But then they were on the roads.

Q. Is that your explanation about the differences in the two statements, that there were no policemen and that there were a lot of policemen?

JUDGE MAY: He's given the explanation that there were policemen on the train.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's not what it says in the statements.

JUDGE MAY: No, but that's his explanation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I see.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, in the first statement, you say that when you were moving into the woods with your family, you were followed by an APC from which -- which shot into the air above your heads; is that right?

A. That happened when we left our houses. We had armoured vehicles behind us. So please don't mix up the village with the town.

Q. I'm not mixing it up. I'm just asking you different questions. Now, this question was that you say that when you were moving towards the woods with your family, that that's when this took place.

A. When we left our houses, we were followed by auto vehicles until the point when we were outside the village and then we stood positioned, ⁴⁵²⁹ ready to return. And then the paramilitaries followed us and then we were helped by Novica and that is the point where --

Q. All right. I've moved on to some other questions now linked to the APC, the armoured personnel carrier that followed you. In your second statement, you make no mention of the APC. In your second statement, you say that when they threw you out of your houses, that a group of paramilitary forces arrived in the village in three buses. Is that right?

JUDGE MAY: He's dealing with a different point there. He's given his account and this is a second statement. Now, unless there's a discrepancy, let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You claim that, from the woods, you saw the soldiers set fire to your houses. Is that right or not?

A. We were not present actually at the place when they set fire, but we saw it from afar when we were gathered.

Q. But you claim that you saw the houses being set fire to with some device that lets out fire. Now, I'm asking you about this. You say you saw this from the woods and now you say that you couldn't see this directly. How then can you say that you saw what they were using to set your houses alight when you couldn't even see the houses properly?

JUDGE MAY: He didn't say he couldn't see the houses properly. What he said is, "We weren't present actually at the place when they set it on fire but we saw it from afar."

Now could you see how they were setting the houses on fire, Mr. ^{4530 BLANK PAGE 4531} Nebihu, or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After they drove us away from our houses, we were about only 500 metres away. If we were at home, they would have burned us alive too, I think.

JUDGE MAY: Could you just -- just listen to the question, please. Were you able to see how the Serb forces were setting fire to the houses?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't see that because we were not in the place. We only saw the smoke and the flames coming out of the houses.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Who told you to go to Urosevac?

A. Novica told us, "I think it's best. It's best for you to go to Ferizaj and not stay there as a group. I mean walk as a group. Do not separate, because you'll be safer in this way."

Q. The part of Urosevac where you were staying was quiet, wasn't it? Is that what you said?

A. Yes. It was calm. In one place where we were staying, we stayed there for a week. Women went out to fetch food and stuffs because we men were afraid. Then after six days, we left early in the morning by train and went to Macedonia.

Q. And how far away is this quiet area from the centre of town, this quiet area that you were staying at?

A. About one kilometre.

Q. About a kilometre? You claim that during those days, NATO had bombed. Could you hear NATO bombings from town? ⁴⁵³²

A. Yes, all the time.

Q. And what was NATO bombing in Urosevac?

A. I don't know what it bombed in Ferizaj.

Q. And do you know how many people were killed by the NATO bombings during those days in Urosevac?

A. I don't think there was anyone killed by NATO bombing. At least, I don't know and I don't think it's true that anyone was killed as a result of NATO bombing.

Q. All right. All right. When did you leave Urosevac? Do you remember the date?

A. On 12th of March.

JUDGE MAY: March?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. That's some kind of a mistake.

THE INTERPRETER: 12th of April.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The 12th of April. And you say that you left your village on the 6th of April?

A. We left the village on the 6th of April. For six days, we stayed in Ferizaj, and then on the 12th, being unable to stay there any longer, we had to leave Ferizaj.

Q. So on the 6th of April, as far as I could understand, you left the village because our forces expelled you and torched your houses. Is that right? That is briefly what you had claimed.

A. I said on the 6th of April we left the village and on the 12th of April, we entered Macedonia. ⁴⁵³³

Q. All right. Do you know of the village of Mirosavlje?

A. Yes, I know that some houses were burned there, but I can't give any information about that.

Q. And how far away is Mirosavlje from Sojevo?

A. We are neighbours because our village is rather spread out, as I said earlier. Not very far -- not very close, I would say. It's a bit farther.

Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday -- I'm asking you this because yesterday, a witness from Mirosavlje claimed that he first saw fires from your village on the 7th of April.

JUDGE MAY: The witness cannot comment on what some other witness said.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not asking him to comment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. My question is do you know exactly when this happened, this that you have been asserting?

A. The truth is that on the 6th, the houses were set on fire, but the fact is also that the fire went on for one or two days. So it's not that they were set on fire for one hour or two hours, you know. They continued to issue smoke and flames.

Q. All right. Let's move on. In your first statement, you claim that without any problems whatsoever, you left by train to Djeneral Jankovic, but in the second statement, you claim that you had to pay ten Deutschmarks per person. So which one of the two is correct? Did you have to pay or did you not have to pay? ⁴⁵³⁴

A. I didn't mention this in the first statement because they didn't ask me. But in the second, I said that some people had to pay, let's say up to 10 marks, Deutschmarks, and some didn't have to pay.

Q. And who did they pay this money to? Did they have tickets issued to them by a conductor? Who did they give this money to?

A. There were many people. I can't say who got tickets or whether they got tickets. As far as I am concerned, I didn't receive any tickets.

Q. Did you pay?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you give these ten Deutschmarks to?

A. I paid that money at the station.

Q. To whom? You said that you paid, but you did not get a ticket. Who did you give the money to?

A. I paid the money at the station. The ticket --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Who was it that you gave the money to when you paid at the station?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who sells tickets.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is now over, unless there's one more question you want to ask this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have only a few questions left, so I think I can finish, because I have not overstepped the time. I have a minute or two left.

JUDGE MAY: You have a minute or two and no more.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I do have an objection as well, so I do hope that there will not be included in this time. So I'll start ⁴⁵³⁵ with the objection.

When this witness was introduced, the explanation was given that he gave two statements, one on the 2nd of May, 1999 and one in November, 2001. And this statement -- the second statement of the 20th of November, 2001, on the first page one can see that there was yet another statement that was given on the 28th of August, 2001, that is to say, three months before that. How is it possible that this side across the well can put different statements together into one statement and without cautioning, while introducing the witness, that there were three statements altogether, and who combined these statements that are given here? So gentlemen - Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon - please look at this first page. It says: Date of interviews: The 29th of August, 2001 and the 20th of November, 2001. Two statements within three months' time put together in one statement.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. ROMANO: Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: If I can clarify. The second statement is the product of the interviews which took place on the 29th of August and again on the 20th of November. There is no third statement whatsoever.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you have two minutes more to ask questions of this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you give your statement in the following way: Did you ⁴⁵³⁶ yourself talk about what had happened to you or did you answer questions?

A. I said only what happened and then I made the necessary corrections. They asked me whether that is true or not.

Q. That is to say that they did not put any questions to you except for asking whether that was true.

A. They asked me questions and then they said to me, "You have to say the same thing in all the statements," and this is how it is.

Q. Did the investigator ask you why you had left Kosovo?

A. We left Kosova on your orders.

Q. I am asking you whether the investigator asked you why you had left Kosovo. The man who talked to you, the man you gave your statement to, did he ask you why you had left Kosovo?

A. Yes, he asked me.

Q. And did he ask you -- did he ask you whether you were pleased by the fact that NATO had bombed? Did he put that question to you?

A. In fact, we welcomed NATO bombing because there was no other way we could have stayed in our homes.

Q. My question was whether this man who talked to you asked you whether you were pleased by the fact that NATO had bombed.

A. He asked me, and I said yes, I was happy.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: No questions.

JUDGE KWON: Excuse me a minute. Mr. Nebihu, I'm a little bit confused about the date. What was the date when you left Urosevac or ⁴⁵³⁷ Ferizaj?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12th of April.

JUDGE KWON: But it seems to me that in both of your statements it was 2nd of April.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a mistake. I told them 12th of April. When they read the statement to me, I said, "You have to correct this mistake, because it was the 12th of April." But probably they have not corrected it.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Mr. Nebihu, I would like to clarify the fact -- the event that happened when your -- when you were in your house and when the soldiers approached your brother's gate of your house, and that was the events that took place at that moment were the events that lead you to leave your house. And I think that when Mr. Milosevic asked you some questions, there were -- there were -- there was a little bit of confusion why did you leave your house. Can you please go back to this fact and explain to the Court again how did it happen?

A. This happened when they entered the yard of my brother's house. I was outside, and I saw everything. They drove out the family of my brother. They were unable to take anything with them, any clothes or anything. And then together with my brother, we left because they told us, "Why aren't you leaving? What are you waiting for?"

Q. And when you say "they," you are referring to whom?

A. I'm talking about my brother, my brother's family, my own family, ^{4538 BLANK PAGE 4539} because we live in the same compound.

Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nebihu.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. ROMANO: I just have one more question, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. ROMANO:

Q. When you were in the woods, Mr. Nebihu, and you saw from that place, you saw -- you saw the soldiers setting fire to the houses, and when asked if you could see how they did that, you said you were not able to see. In your first statement, you said that you saw some kind of weapon that the soldiers were carrying and that was throwing fire. Was that a mistake or did you see that weapon?

A. I saw the weapons when they captured us, but I didn't see the weapon they used to set fire to the house.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Nebihu.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nebihu, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, may we have private session for a short period to return to the topic that we covered yesterday morning first thing? ⁴⁵⁴⁰

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴⁵⁴¹ Pages 4541 to 4548 - redacted - private session. ⁴⁵⁴⁹

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

--- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴⁵⁵⁰

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're now in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: An expert, Dr. Baccard, is due to give evidence on the 21st. His statement has been served under the appropriate provisions. We can't expect any formalities from the accused. We can't speak to the accused directly, and so far those lawyers who are assisting him haven't taken the opportunity to get in touch with me. Therefore, we should know and invite the Chamber to assist us in learning whether the accused wishes him to attend for cross-examination or not. ⁴⁵⁵¹ If he is to attend for cross-examination on good grounds, then the logistics for bringing him here and allowing him to review the material in advance of giving his evidence will have to be made, all of which is going to be quite labour and time-consuming. If not, then his report can be simply read or taken as read on the 21st.

JUDGE MAY: He is an expert on exhumations.

MR. NICE: Correct.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what's been suggested --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge May, please.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. The evidence of Dr. Baccard, who is an expert on exhumations, is before the Court in the form of a report. Do you want to cross-examine that witness or not?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no need for that question to be posed with respect to any of the witnesses because I am here -- I said here in public on many occasions that witnesses who I'm not able to cross-examination, secret witnesses and so on and so forth, cannot be acceptable.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is my position.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. What is the position? He's an expert. If there is -- if there is a call for cross-examination, then I think the Court's powers are limited, aren't they?

MR. NICE: Yes. It's Rule 94, I think. Within 14 days of the filing of the statement of the expert witness - well, that time's long expired, I'm afraid - the opposing party shall file a notice indicating ⁴⁵⁵² whether it accepts the expert's statement or wishes to cross-examine. If the party accepts the statement, the statement may be admitted into evidence by the Trial Chamber without calling the witness to testify. That's the Rule as earlier drafted, and I -- those parts of it haven't been amended in the latest amendments.

JUDGE MAY: So you will have his report put before the Court, presumably, and he must be here for cross-examination.

MR. NICE: It is extremely unfortunate that the accused is not prepared, himself or by his lawyers, to consider witnesses on a case-by-case basis and that he should seek simply to exert by blanket bar or blanket approach to the witnesses to exert this effect on the timetable of this trial, but the answer is we'll have him here.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. NICE: I still repeat that it would be helpful if those lawyers who are assisting him can get in touch. They have duties to the Court to which they have signed.

The second point, I understand that the Court and its officers have been inconvenienced, perhaps substantially, by the changes in witness orders that have been happening recently, and I'm very sorry if that's been the case. Of course, it's largely if not wholly circumstances outside our control with the particular timetable, to which we're responding, that lead to these changes but it's vital we do everything we can to keep you and your staff alert.

I'm instituting a new procedure where I will have before you, if not today, tomorrow, a list right to the end of trial of a witness order, ⁴⁵⁵³ and whenever there's a change, even on a daily basis, we will resubmit the document with, I don't know, italicised or bolded or underlined, the changes; and we hope that this will reduce or avoid altogether the inconvenience to which your staff has previously been subject.

JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow, K4.

MR. NICE: Yes. Ms. Romano reminds me that he is included in the list of witnesses for whom the 92 bis provisions generally have been sought, and I think he may now prove to be the first one of that batch to whom our application relates.

JUDGE MAY: One matter, while it's in mind, is this, and that is the formalities of Rule 92 bis should not be overlooked in these submissions.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, no. I think I explained when I first raised it as a possibility that of course there would be necessary abbreviation of time, but I don't know if those are the formalities that you had in mind.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: Of course it's because of those provisions and the need to abbreviate the time that we drew to your attention, to the attention of the accused, that he will have been provided in advance with statements, a long time in advance, to read so there can be no prejudice, and we, of course, reminded you in the application that the procedure has, I think, been adopted in one other Trial Chamber in any event. It's a method of saving time. We commend it to you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, there's a matter I wanted to ask you ^{4554 BLANK PAGE 4555} about. In relation to the testimony of the vast majority of the witnesses, we have two statements. There's a first statement and then there's a second statement coming much later after the first, usually much closer to the trial. The accused has quite rightly been cross-examining on discrepancies that arise between the two statements. I wanted to find out from you what was the strategy, what was being aimed at by the investigators or by the OTP in general in getting these second statements?

MR. NICE: It's a matter better dealt with by one of the investigators or the lead investigator when he comes, because it's not something which I necessarily deal with in detail. But I think the answer will be along these lines: That the earlier statements may have been taken as part of a general inquiry, and when the decision is made that the particular witness is to be listed for a particular case, he's seen again. And all too often, not only are the matters that need to be clarified in relation to the original statement, but the witness himself will recall and bring up other matters that need to be covered. So I suspect it's a two-part process. And indeed it's in the nature of events, as we discovered from the 92 bis witnesses, that witnesses, at the time they're first seen, rarely remember or are reminded of all matters that are material, and they frequently come to court, even when 92 bis'd, with further photographs and further details that they've forgotten to tell us about. And with the best of all conceivable investigation techniques, it seems that this is going to carry on happening. So I suspect that the second statements are usually a combination of us seeking details and them remembering further material. ⁴⁵⁵⁶ Ms. Romano might be going to give me a further reminder.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. NICE: And I am reminded, helpfully, that, of course, the first statements were very often taken in camps of one kind or another in circumstances where it is very difficult, if not possible, to expect the best out of witnesses whose minds are probably concentrated on things other, frankly, than trying to go about perfect recall.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

JUDGE MAY: Perhaps just one other matter. I'm sorry, Mr. Kay, but while it's in the mind.

Next week we should -- we have your latest document on proposals for the rest of this part of the trial - numbers of witnesses and the like - and we are considering it, and we ought to have a session on it sometime next week when we can find a convenient time to discuss it here.

MR. NICE: Yes. I think next week we're not sitting on the Friday. We're sitting on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I think. We have -- I'm going to be here, I think, all next week. We have witnesses on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, who are substantial in time probably, and content, it might be prudent not to interrupt those witnesses, not to interrupt in the middle of the course of either of them. There's Mr. Drewienkiewicz, who comes back just for a couple of hours, and there's a witness who will probably take some time, starting after him.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will not interrupt the witnesses, and if it's not possible next week, we will do it the week after, but we ought to have the matter in mind. ⁴⁵⁵⁷ Mr. Kay, yes.

MR. KAY: It's more of a point of observation. It concerns the statement of Dr. Eric Baccard, served as an expert witness. My records show that was served the 16th of April, and we're now the 8th of May. So the 30-day period for the accused has not expired in relation to that matter, which I thought the Trial Chamber ought to know since there's been some criticism of him in relation to how he deals with advance notice of witnesses.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Let's have the witness, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a question.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may. A moment ago you noted that tomorrow we're going to hear witness K4, and as I see, he is a protected witness, according to the proposal. I see no reason for an Albanian living in Kosovo to be a protected witness in this trial.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We will -- before the witness gives evidence, we will consider that position. You will have the opportunity to make your observations then.

Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. NICE: My understanding is that K4 will no longer require protective measures. I'll confirm it.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. NICE: My further observation is that unless the Rule's been changed, it's a 14-day period that is required by the accused, and that ⁴⁵⁵⁸ has passed.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to sit down.

WITNESS: ASMAN THACI

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, for your knowledge, the evidence of the witness is from the villages that you will find on page 10 and 11 of the Kosovo atlas. He will mention several small villages that are on both pages.

Examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, can you state your name, your full name, to the Court, please?

A. I'm called Asman Thaci from Demjan, born 28th of March, 1941.

Q. Are you married, Mr. Thaci?

A. Yes.

Q. What's your profession?

A. I'm a farmer.

Q. Where do you live?

A. Demjan.

Q. And where is Demjan located?

A. Demjan is in the Has region which borders on Dedaj, Romaje, and Kushin. It's in the south of Kosova. ⁴⁵⁵⁹

Q. Is it in the Prizren municipality?

A. It's in the municipality of Gjakove.

Q. Mr. Thaci, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the Prosecutor during the period of 10 to 13 of November, 1999; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time, you gave a statement?

A. Yes.

Q. On 9th of March of this year, you attended a meeting where you appeared before a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time, you -- you had the opportunity to review your statement. You were given a copy of your statement in the Albanian language; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And after reviewing, you are able to state that the contents of your statement, they are true?

A. True, yes.

MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution would submit the statement under Rule 92 bis, Your Honours.

JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, could you assist me in finding where is the village of Demjan on the map?

MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, the witness was born in that village, but he will give evidence from the village that he passed through while he ⁴⁵⁶⁰ was deported, and that's what I will mention in the summary right now. But I can also help you find where he was born. If you can give me some minutes to look at the map. I will read the summary first and then I will locate it.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit number 140.

MS. ROMANO: The testimony of the witness is the following: On 30 March 1999, the witness sent his family to Albania as he feared for their safety. The following day, he went to the village of Kojus - and that, Your Honour, you will see on page 11 - to attempt to persuade his father-in-law to also leave. However, while they were speaking, the village was surrounded by VJ soldiers and paramilitaries. They entered the house and told everyone to leave. The witness saw the paramilitaries grab his father-in-law, take him to a barn and set him alight with a flame-thrower before shooting him. The witness and another relative were ordered to dig a grave and bury the body. The paramilitaries took the villagers' ID documents and valuables. The witness also saw a man giving the paramilitaries money so they would not kill him.

The witness joined a convoy but decided to leave it and walk to the village of Lubizhde. And, Your Honours, this village is on page 11 of the Kosovo atlas.

There, he met up with a large group of displaced persons hiding in the woods. The witness remained there until 17 April 1999, when VJ soldiers surrounded them, fired their weapons. The VJ soldiers executed ⁴⁵⁶¹ 17 males. They separated 50 to 100 women and girls from the group, took them 30 metres away and raped them in front of the displaced persons. The ordeal lasted for approximately two hours, during which the women and girls were slapped and verbally abused. The witness also saw a 14-year-old girl being raped in front of her family. The VJ soldiers then took the group to the village of Dedaj, where the men and the women were separated. The men were held in stables for two days before being taken to the Albanian border at Morina by buses arranged by the army. At the border, they were ordered to hand over their ID documents.

No further questions, Your Honours.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

MS. ROMANO:

Q. Thank you, Witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Did you or the villagers have any contact at all with the members of the Yugoslav army in the period between the 24th of March to the 30th of March?

A. No. In our village, there was neither a headquarters nor were there members of the KLA.

Q. I did not ask you about members of the KLA.

A. There were -- about 700 metres away, there were 73 tanks. There were soldiers in the neighbourhood of Pnesh.

Q. When? ^{4562 BLANK PAGE 4563}

A. They came at the end of May 1998.

Q. At the end of May 1998, you say.

A. True, yes.

Q. That means that they were already near your village for ten months, ten months before the events you're describing.

A. And more, because on the 20th of September, 1998, they burnt Demjan, Lecine, and another village.

Q. And so that means that you're claiming that from May 1998, there was the military unit with 73 tanks and all the rest of it that you enumerated. Is that right?

A. They were all the time there. They prepared for conflict, and there were no conflicts, and it was never -- there was never any kind of conflict in the two villages that are in our area.

Q. So that means that during that time -- all right. During that time, you weren't an eyewitness to any conflicts or clashes between the army, the police, or anybody else. Have I understood you correctly?

A. This area consists ethnically solely of Albanians. There were no soldiers. Nobody was killed nor were soldiers and policemen.

Q. All right. In that period of time, that is to say from the 24th up until the 30th of March, 1999, your village and the environments, were they bombed by NATO?

A. There was no bombing from NATO as long as we were there. There was no bombing by NATO.

Q. And did you see anything close by or further away, or did you hear any of the bombing that took place on the 24th? ⁴⁵⁶⁴

A. When we left on the 17th of April, we heard when we were near the border with Albania.

Q. And what was it that you heard then?

A. There was bombing by NATO on the positions that I mentioned earlier, your positions.

Q. So until -- from what I can see here, until the 17th of April, you did not hear any bombing at all; is that it?

A. Are you talking about my village?

Q. I'm talking about you. You say that you heard the bombing for the first time on the 17th of April, 1999.

A. When I was in Albania?

Q. No. I'm asking you about the time up until the 17th of April. All I wanted to do was to see whether I had understood you correctly. Is it correct that you said that you did not hear of any NATO bombing until the 17th of April? Is that right? Is that what you said?

A. I said clearly -- I said very clearly, in my village, there was no bombing during the time that I was there. And even after I left, from the 17th of April onwards, all the people had been chased away by your policemen, and we were in Albania and there was nobody there.

Q. Very well. Let's go back to your statement. You said that you sent two of your younger sons and wife and other two sons to Albania on the 30th of March already and that they stayed with your relatives in Albania, in Kruma. Is that right?

A. From the time when your Chetniks came on 29th of March, they joined your forces and they burnt houses in Grexhine, and they shelled the ⁴⁵⁶⁵ neighbourhood of Muhaderi, when a three-month-old child was killed --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Thaci, I must interrupt you. We'll get on more quickly if you just concentrate on the question. The question was: Is it right that you sent two of your younger sons and your wife to Albania on the 30th of March to stay with relatives? Is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sent them to the uncle of my father in Golaj in Albania. That is correct.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And when did your family move from Albania to Kosovo? When did it come to settle there?

A. After the liberation. They came after Kosova was liberated. I don't know when we came back, but it was after NATO ended.

Q. My question was a different one. You have relatives, you say - your father's uncle, in fact, and other relatives - living in Kruma in Albania. Is that right?

A. In Golaj.

Q. Yes. What I'm asking you now is your father's uncle lives in Kruma in Albania with your other relatives then. I'm asking you: When did your family come to settle in Kosovo from Albania earlier on? I don't mean in this war, but when did they originally come to settle in Kosovo from Albania?

JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of that? What does it matter?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to ascertain the identity of the witness with greater precision in view of the fact that his father's ⁴⁵⁶⁶ uncle lives in Albania and that he has a family and relatives there.

JUDGE MAY: We have that. But what does it matter when his family came to Albania -- came to Kosovo?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I want to do this in order to hear some -- in order to go on with my questions and to ascertain some other points. If I could get an answer to my question, please. If not, well ...

JUDGE MAY: Can you help us to that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 1949, when the border was closed, we had no contact with our relatives in Albania.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And when did you establish contact again?

A. The first contact was on that day when we were expelled from our house and we went to Albania.

Q. So from 1949 until 1999, you had no contact with your family in Albania?

A. Absolutely no contacts.

Q. All right. And why didn't you send the rest of your family to Albania when you decided to send part of the family?

A. You have it written very explicitly. My sons were in Montenegro. They were working in a bakery there. His wife wanted -- came, but she was blocked there, and my son didn't feel secure to come because he was afraid he would be massacred, given the fact that usually that was the case.

Q. Was any member of your family a member of the KLA?

A. I said even earlier, in those 52 villages, there was not a single ⁴⁵⁶⁷ KLA there, member or bases.

Q. You lived in the municipality of Djakovica?

A. Yes.

Q. So in those 52 villages of the municipality of Djakovica, there were no KLA members. That is your claim; right?

A. Has is divided into half is in Gjakove municipality, half in Prizren municipality.

Q. How far away is the village of Kojus from your village?

A. My wife is from Kojus village, my spouse. The village is about 25 kilometres away.

Q. And how did you reach Kojus from Demjan?

A. In Demjan, I sheltered my family in Golaj and then I returned. I went to a friend of mine when this tragedy occurred.

Q. But I asked you about your journey from Demjan to Kojus. How did you get there?

A. When they expelled us, three villages, on orders from a lieutenant colonel, on the 30th of March, I took my family to Albania and then returned illegally in Kojusha.

Q. And on the road from Demjan to Kojus, did you have any problems?

A. From Albania to Kojusha, I travelled illegally, I'm saying.

Q. And when you arrived in Kojus, were there any members of the KLA in the village?

A. No. There were none of those 52 villages of Has.

Q. To the best of your knowledge, how many inhabitants were in Kojus at the moment when the forces of the Yugoslav army walked in? ⁴⁵⁶⁸

A. Kojusha is a small village. It may have about 100 inhabitants, not more than that.

Q. And on that day, was somebody else killed, apart from your father-in-law?

A. My father-in-law was 80 years old. Met Kuka, 103-year-old, and another old man who didn't want to leave -- an old woman whose name I don't know, who didn't want to leave, they were killed.

Q. Did you personally see the killing of this old man and old woman, the ones that you just referred to now?

A. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the bullets flying around.

Q. All right. So the answer is yes. And during these events that you describe, did you talk to any of the members of the Yugoslav army?

A. I heard what they were saying among themselves, because we were too afraid to dare speak to them.

Q. You mentioned some Russians.

A. Yes. Yes. Because I know some Russian.

Q. Oh, so you speak Russian.

A. Yes, I know Russian.

Q. Could you please tell us, in the briefest possible terms, about the conversation that you had in the Russian language with the Russian soldiers?

A. This seems very ridiculous. When someone knows Serbian, it's very easy for one to understand Russian too.

JUDGE MAY: In your statement, you say, Mr. Thaci, the Russians ⁴⁵⁶⁹ were giving orders to the Yugoslav army soldiers and to the paramilitaries. Can you help us as to what those orders were?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were combined. They were in a small number who communicated among themselves in Russian. And I heard with my own ears. There were -- those three men who didn't want to leave their house, I saw them when they were killed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm asking about the Russians, because you claim that there were Russians there. This is a new thing. This is the first time I hear of it. So I'm asking you about the Russians.

What did you hear? Since you claim that you know the Russian language, what is this that you heard them saying?

A. They said, the Russians -- uh-huh. The Russians said, "We will kill others," and the army didn't allow them.

Q. Did I understand you correctly? Did you say that these were officers who were issuing orders?

A. I didn't see their ranks; I only saw their uniforms.

Q. But you said that they were issuing orders in Russian. Is that right or is that not right? Did I understand you correctly?

A. You have been wrongly informed. They didn't give orders in Russian but in Serbo-Croatian. And the conversation that several people were holding had words of Russian in it, as I said before.

Q. Oh, I see. And how many persons were there who spoke Russian?

A. About four. About four to five.

Q. All right. You say that some of these soldiers had the intention ^{4570 BLANK PAGE 4571} of killing Murat Athami; is that right?

A. That's true. When we went on the 30th of April, 1999 to the village alongside the Drin, we were stopped by some policemen and they took this young man, Murat Athami, from a tractor, and the others, the rest of us, were maltreated and put at a distance, at a turn in the road, and we heard and saw how people produced money and saved the young man's life. And this was Murat Athami.

Q. Did you give money to anyone for any reason?

A. No.

Q. How many people were in the convoy that left the village of Kojus?

A. I said Kojusha has about a hundred inhabitants, but there are other villages roundabout. And we set off for Albania that day. And when we got to the customs point at Morina, they took all our documents from us.

JUDGE MAY: Can you help us as to how many people there were in the convoy? That is what you were asked.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The convoy, including other villagers, was a very long one, a convoy of several kilometres. I can't really say how many people there were from other villages.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that neither the soldiers nor the members of the paramilitary forces, as you call them, followed the convoy, escorted the convoy; is that right?

A. That's true.

Q. And why do you claim that you were fleeing from the convoy when it ⁴⁵⁷² is true that nobody followed the convoy? Why flee then?

A. I fled after my son because other relatives had remained hidden in the mountains; Zenel Thaci, Bashkim Thaci, and my son Rrustem.

Q. And tell me, these relatives who were in the hills, were they members of the KLA?

A. How could they be members of the KLA? They were about 3.000 people; women, old men, children.

Q. All right. Just say no.

A. No.

Q. I meant the men, the ones you mentioned staying behind in the hills. I wasn't talking about women and children. In your statement, you say that you returned to your village and that you saw there that your house had burned down; is that right?

A. That's right. The house was burned. Not only my house but all the other houses.

Q. All right. And then you go to the woods and then you return from there again to your house, you say, on the following day. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And why do you return yet again to your house on the very next day when it had burned down?

A. To see where the young people were.

Q. And you claim that you met your son in the mountains on the 13th of April and that he was with your two nephews; right?

A. There was a large number of people. I saw by accident my son there and met him, together with Zenel and my nephew, other nephew, ⁴⁵⁷³ Bashkim.

Q. And you claim that you went into the mountains because you saw smoke rising; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And how do you know that these were not members of the army of Yugoslavia or the police or the paramilitary forces? This is the border area.

A. The army used to patrol with armoured cars and tanks, but it was so difficult for anyone to penetrate.

Q. There in the mountains on the 17th of April, you say that you encountered 2.000 refugees moving in a convoy towards Albania; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Since they were moving towards Albania, why did they ask you where the road to Albania was?

A. Because they had come from many regions of Kosova and didn't know their way about, didn't know where to go. They didn't know the terrain.

Q. And how far away is the Albanian border from that particular place?

A. Very far, because Pashtrik hill is quite a large area. It's about 2.700 metres.

Q. Who surrounded you then? Was it the army or the paramilitary forces that you mention here?

A. The army and the paramilitaries surrounded us. And 17 people got killed. Five from my village, from Krasniq. The others I don't know. ⁴⁵⁷⁴

Q. And did the army have any losses?

A. When your forces came, your lieutenant colonel came, he killed two soldiers.

Q. So you describe the following situation: Two soldiers executed 17 Albanians from the convoy, and that then a lieutenant colonel of the army of Yugoslavia came and shot these two soldiers with a pistol and then they got 50 girls and women out of the convoy and raped them right there in front of you. Is that the situation that you are describing and all of these things happened one after the other?

A. Yes. They made us eat grass for about five minutes.

Q. And this officer who later killed these two soldiers, where did he come from?

A. This lieutenant colonel, he was about one kilometre away.

Q. You're trying to say that he reached you from that distance; right?

A. Where he came and where he went, I can tell you even now if I see that person. I know him.

Q. Were there any soldiers with him?

A. Yes.

Q. What you've been explaining now, did all of this happen one thing after the other; that is to say, these two soldiers, as you say, execute 17 civilians, the lieutenant colonel comes, kills the two of them, and then right after, that they get 50 women out of the convoy and then they rape them collectively on the spot, they're a few metres away from you, they make you eat grass; and you describe all of that together as a single ⁴⁵⁷⁵ event that occurred right there on that very spot; is that right?

A. This happened before, the killing, the raping, and then the eating of the grass. It was very hot. There were -- there was a large crowd of people. And when this lieutenant colonel came, he killed those two notorious people.

Q. Haven't you overdone this a bit? Have you exaggerated a bit in describing everything that happened? Would you like to think about it once again?

A. I didn't exaggerate it at all. Everything happened as I said and the killing of those two soldiers came after what I had said.

Q. After what?

A. They took us from there and took us to a barn. And after a time, they put us on buses. From the 17th of April, when we left to Albania, I know nothing about the fate of my son or the 62 persons who were left in the hands of the army.

Q. But you claim that you saw the killings and you saw the officer who killed the soldiers and this mass rape.

JUDGE MAY: We have been over this. The witness has given his evidence about it, you've put it to him, you've suggested he was exaggerating, he denies it. I don't think that we can take this any further.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In addition to yourself and Haxhi Qerimi who you mentioned, did anybody else see this mass killing and rape? ⁴⁵⁷⁶

A. There were 3.000 people who experienced it. Haxhi Qerimi lost his son and was wounded himself.

Q. And do you know what the name of this 14-year-old girl was, the one that was raped by Sali Tafa?

A. No. I know that she was mentally ill after this event.

Q. Who is Sali Tafa?

A. He is from Kabash.

Q. Who is he?

A. He is an Albanian.

Q. So it was an Albanian who raped this little 14-year-old girl.

A. Yes. He was employed by you.

Q. All right. As for the rape of Albanian women and girls that you describe, did other Albanian civilians take part in this? Yes or no.

A. I'm sorry. This is -- these are your cunning fabrications. And I am not covering up either bad things --

JUDGE MAY: Just answer the question, if you would. It's suggested, or rather, you're asked whether there were other Albanians involved or not.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So it was only Sali Tafa.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. You know the name of Sali Tafa. Do you have any more specific information about a single Serb soldier who took part in the rape? ⁴⁵⁷⁷

A. I saw this with my own eyes.

Q. All right. Now, are you saying that you crossed the Serbian-Albanian border in a bus at the Morina border-crossing point?

A. I said before: On the 17th of April, they took us away with these people from the place where this event took place to the pass of Morina.

Q. How; by bus?

A. By bus. By bus.

Q. And how far is the Morina crossing point from Djakovica?

A. It must be about 50 or 60 kilometres. I can't say exactly.

Q. I mean as the crow flies, not taking the road. As the crow flies. In a straight line.

A. I'm in no position to know how far that is.

Q. And is it true that you stayed in Kosovo until the end of the war, or did you return to Albania?

A. I told you: With these people from Lubizhde in Prizren municipality, we came out on the 17th of April, and we were expelled, and we stayed in Golaj.

Q. And you didn't return to Kosovo before the war ended. Have I understood you correctly?

A. I didn't go back until NATO ended.

Q. When you crossed the border at Morina, did anybody ask you for any ID papers?

A. From everybody, yes.

Q. Did they take your ID papers away or did they keep them?

A. They took them away from everybody. ⁴⁵⁷⁸

Q. And when did you return to Kosovo ultimately?

A. I've told you three times. I told you three times: After NATO entered.

Q. All right. Thank you for that.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: No thank you.

MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour. I have a couple of questions. Can I proceed right now or --

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. ROMANO: First to clarify, Your Honour, question about the location, all the villages mentioned, they are on page 10, on the bottom of page 10. You found them?

Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Mr. Thaci, awhile ago you said that some of the soldiers were speaking in the Russian language. Were they wearing uniforms?

A. They had the same uniform as the Serbian army.

Q. Did you recognise any of the people? Did you know any of the people speaking in the Russian language?

A. I saw them there for the first time, and I never saw them again.

Q. Thank you. Mr. Thaci, Sali Tafa, the Albanian person who raped the 14-year-old girl, he was an Albanian and he was a civilian; is that correct?

A. He was with the Serbian forces although he was an Albanian.

Q. Was he helping or working with the Serbian forces?

A. Yes. Yes. ⁴⁵⁷⁹

Q. In which capacity? What was he doing?

A. He was an employee of the Serbian Secret Service.

Q. Mr. Thaci, you also said that you went to the Albanian border by bus. Who provided the bus?

A. The Serbian army brought it to us.

Q. And after they brought the buses, what happened?

A. We hadn't any problems as we went straight to the border crossing with Albania.

MS. ROMANO: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Thaci, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: XHEVAHIRE RRAHMANI

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, we've had a request from the Trial Chamber that comes in the afternoon that we finish on time in future. Of course, ^{4580 BLANK PAGE 4581} we take note of it. We ought to try and get this witness through, if we can, before quarter to.

MS. ROMANO: I will do my best, Your Honour. For this witness, the Kosovo atlas page 6, and her testimony includes the municipality of Vucitrn and Glogovac.

Examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, can you please tell the Court your full name.

A. Xhevahire Rrahmani.

Q. How old are you, Witness?

A. I was born in 1966.

Q. Are you married?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you have children?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you born?

A. In Dubofc.

Q. And in which municipality is Dubofc located?

A. Vushtrri.

Q. And during 1999, where did you live?

A. In Bukosh.

Q. And that's also in the Vucitrn municipality?

A. Vushtrri municipality; that's right.

Q. Ms. Rrahmani, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the Prosecutor during the period between the 14th to the 20th of October, 2000. Do you remember that? ⁴⁵⁸²

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember giving a statement to the members of the office?

A. Yes.

Q. And on 8th of March this year, you attended a meeting and appeared before an appointed officer, appointed presiding officer of this Tribunal, and you had the opportunity to review your statement. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were provided with a copy of the statement in the Albanian language; is that correct?

A. Yes.

MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution submits the statement into evidence. The witness will testify about the following: She's a Kosovo Albanian who lived in the village of Bukos in the Vucitrn municipality. On 26 March 1999, the witness and her family went to the village of Kozica in the Srbica municipality. Serb soldiers shelled the village and started to burn the houses. The men fled to the mountains and the women were herded into a room in the house where they were robbed. The witness then went to Glogovac for ten days before returning to Kozica where she stayed until the village was again shelled by Serb forces. The VJ entered the village and rounded up the women and children who were there. They were kept in a house for two days before a group of approximately 27 women were escorted to Cirez by some of the Serb soldiers.

On arrival at Cirez, the women were handed over to other soldiers ⁴⁵⁸³ who took the women to a barn. The soldiers robbed the women and then took them out, one by one, to be searched. The witness spoke to the first woman who had been searched and she told the witness that she had been stripped naked by the soldiers.

One of the soldiers removed the witness from the barn. He touched her breasts and asked the witness to select a house where they could go and have sexual intercourse. The soldier harassed the witness with improper questions, showing his male organ. The witness was allowed to return to the barn without anything happening to her. The witness believes that many of the women and girls were raped. Five young women and three older women, one of whom was her mother, did not return. The eight women who did not return with them were subsequently found dead in the wells in -- in some wells in Cirez. That's all, Your Honours.

THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit number 141.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Since when have you been living in the village of Bukos?

A. Since I was married. That's 13 years ago.

Q. How many houses did your village have?

A. I don't know.

Q. What was the situation like with respect to security and safety during 1998 and the first three months of 1999 in your village and in the ⁴⁵⁸⁴ nearby villages?

A. We were never left in peace, but we fled in order to avert worse.

Q. I asked you about 1998 and the first three months of 1999. Were there any KLA members before the NATO aggression in your village, and did they attack the inhabitants of your village?

A. There was no KLA in Bukosh village.

Q. And do you remember an incident that took place on the 22nd of February, 1999, in your village, the village of Bukos, when members of the KLA killed two young men, Serbs, the Milosevic brothers, at their doorstep before the eyes of their parents? Do you remember that taking place?

A. I heard it on the television, but I was not there and I don't know anything about it.

Q. Well, that happened in your village. And what about this other thing the next day? Do you remember that, when the OSCE observers of the Kosovo Verification Mission and numerous journalists visited that place with a police escort? Do you remember that?

A. I don't remember. These things did happen, but I don't know.

Q. It happened on the 22nd of February, the killing of those two young men. And the villagers, on the next day, that is to say, the Kosovo Verification Mission was there the next day, and the KLA shot at members of the mission too. Do you remember that? Did you hear the shooting in your village at all, both on the 22nd and on the 23rd of February?

A. On 22nd of February in the evening, we left the house because there was fighting in the village, and there were forces there, but we didn't know what was going on. ⁴⁵⁸⁵

Q. Well, on the 22nd, the KLA killed these two young men in your village. So you don't know anything about --

JUDGE MAY: No need to repeat that. She says she heard it on the television and that's all.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know about a Serb lady by the name of Velika Vucetic from the neighbouring village of Taradza, who was kidnapped, raped by the KLA, and died as a result of burning, together with her daughter Milica? Do you know about that event taking place?

A. No, I don't know.

Q. And do you know of another occurrence where members of the KLA --

JUDGE MAY: What is the point of this? This witness gives very serious evidence indeed about events which occurred to her, serious crimes are alleged to have been committed against her, and you're cross-examining about totally different matters. What's the point of this if it's not simply to try and score off the witness in some way in a tit for tat? What you should be concentrating on is what the witness gave in evidence and the serious allegations which are involved there.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Her statement includes the allegation that for the last 13 years prior to the NATO aggression, she lived in the village of Bukos. And as in the village of Bukos some very serious crimes took place, as she lived there for 13 years, as it is a village and not a large town, it is logical for me to ask her about the circumstances in which these -- the events which she says happened to her took place. ⁴⁵⁸⁶

JUDGE MAY: It sounds to me as though you're simply trying to put matters to her, allegations of other crimes instead of concentrating on those that there were.

It's alleged that there were crimes in the village before the events you've described in your statement. Do you know anything about these other crimes?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was looking after my children. I didn't take an interest in these things.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there is your answer. In due course, if you wish, you can put evidence about it, if it's relevant, about these other matters, but you should concentrate on cross-examining this witness about the things which she knows about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said that she herself had said that she had lived in the village of Bukos for 13 years. So that is sufficient grounds for me to ask her about the goings-on in the village of Bukos.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you know Xhamil Pllana, an Albanian from your village, from the village of Bukos? An Albanian. Xhamil Pllana is his name.

A. No, I don't know of such a name.

Q. And have you perhaps heard that the man was killed by the KLA on the 4th of April, precisely in your village, the village of Bukos?

A. No.

Q. And how far is the village Mijalic from the village of Bukos?

A. I don't know. ⁴⁵⁸⁷

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we are concerned about this line of cross-examination. Are you trying to say that the actions about which the witness has given evidence and has made a statement, against the women in series, are you trying to say that those actions were in some way in self-defence? Otherwise, what possible relevance can it have to her evidence? Or is this a possibility: That these actions against the women in Celine were in revenge from what you say happened?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course not. Of course not. Because the alleged actions could not have been an act of self-defence, of course. But I'm speaking about the events which took place in the village in which this witness lived. And I'd like to remind you and the witness of part of her statement relating, for example -- for example -- to quote an example, to the existence of members of the Black Hand. She says, "I heard somebody mention the Black Hand when the killing took place in Likoshane, Glogovac municipality in February 1998," and so on and so forth. So she speaks about events in the neighbouring municipality, and a moment ago she just said that she knows nothing about what went on in her village because she was looking after her family. Now, if she knows nothing about what took place in her village because she was looking after her family --

JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask her again about the Black Hand? You can ask about that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am saying that the witness, on one page, says she knows nothing except things about her family, whereas at ⁴⁵⁸⁸ the same time, she states that she knew what went on in the neighbouring villages. So it is logical for me to --

JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask her about the Black Hand and just move on from putting these allegations.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand, Mr. May, whether you don't like me doing the cross-examination here, whether it bothers you, or whether you're going to tell me what I should ask the witnesses.

JUDGE MAY: No. You will cross-examine properly, and you will be limited to that. Now, move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your statement, and that's on page 1, you say that two days after NATO began the bombing on the 26th of March, 1999, "I left my house together with my husband and children, as well as my brother-in-law by the name of Bajram and his wife Mihrije and their five children. We all went to the village of Kozica, which is where we stayed for three nights." My question is as follows: Because of what NATO operations did, did you decide to leave your village and seek refuge in the village of Kozica?

A. Yes. That day, we were in Vushtrri, it was bombed. Some people were killed. We left the place. We went home. We were afraid to stay on because of the Serb police and militia who were stationed nearby our house, and we went to Kozhnice village.

Q. And did you see the bombing of Vucitrn?

A. There was shelling, in fact, of Vushtrri.

Q. In your statement, you also say, in mentioning the shellings of ⁴⁵⁸⁹ Serb soldiers, that seven people were killed. They tried to administer first aid to the wounded, and a doctor was with them. Now, who attempted to give -- administer first aid to the wounded, and what doctor, whose doctor, which doctor?

A. I don't know. I know they were Serb soldiers. I don't know the name.

Q. Can you identify the people who were killed?

A. There was a woman who left behind a small child, from Kozhnice village. I don't know her name. There were also some others; an old woman, a young man. There were about ten, seven, eight, or ten altogether. I didn't want my children to see what was happening and went a little further.

Q. These Serb soldiers who tried -- these Serb soldiers who tried to help the wounded, did they help the wounded Serbs or the wounded Albanians?

A. First they shelled us, and they tried to provide the first aid to who remained alive.

Q. In your statement, you said: "Three days later, the Serb forces shelled the village, and then all the men took to the mountains, Mount Cicavica, in fact." Can you explain why all the men went to Cicavica mountain and left the women and children in the village of Kozica?

A. Because they were afraid that if they were found there, they would have been killed.

Q. Over the next ten days, from Mount Cicavica, could you hear explosions or shooting? ⁴⁵⁹⁰

A. No. They shelled, but I don't know from Cicavica.

Q. After staying in Glogovac, and you say you stayed there for ten days, you stated, "After that, we went back to Kozica because we had no food. When I went back to Kozica I found my husband there." Then you go on to say: "All the men came down from the mountain and met us there." My question is the following: Did your husband Xhavid tell you what he was doing during those ten days with all the men on Mount Cicavica? Did you ask him that?

A. They stayed there because they felt safer there.

Q. What made them come back, then, if they were safer there? Why would they want to return to the village of Kozica?

A. To get food supplies.

Q. On page 2, you talk about the uniforms of the Yugoslav army. You say dark-green/light-green uniforms, and then you say, "They were probably regular soldiers belonging to the Yugoslav army." That is a quotation from your statement. Do you maintain that today? Do you still say that that was a description of the uniform worn by the Yugoslav army?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 4, you say that the soldiers' conduct towards you was proper when you were in Durmishi's house, that they brought you food, they brought you clothing, and that they gave you some medicines for your sick daughter. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Can you describe the uniforms that those 25 soldiers were wearing? You said there were approximately that number. What were they wearing? ⁴⁵⁹¹

A. The soldiers were dressed in green uniforms.

Q. Camouflage, patterned uniforms, or just green?

A. I didn't understand the question. You mean in Cirez or in Kozhnice village?

Q. I'm thinking about those soldiers, the soldiers that helped you, who brought you the food, the water, and the medicines for your daughter. What kind of uniforms were they wearing? You said they wore green uniforms. Now I'm asking you whether a plain green or did they have some patterns on them?

A. Green.

Q. Now, the soldier who told you to go to Cirez, when he advised you to do that, was he speaking in Serbian or in Albanian?

A. There was a young girl who knew the language. Her name was Miridite. She talked with him, and then she told us that they were going to send us to Cirez. We were sitting in two rooms on the first floor. From there, they took us to Cirez. The second room -- those who were in the second room left after three, four days.

Q. This young girl, did she tell you what the man had suggested, that is, to go to Cirez? Did she say that it sounded like a threat or like a well-intentioned piece of advice? Can you make the difference between the two?

A. No. She merely told us that, "You will be the first to leave, and then we will follow soon after, two or three days." Because the Serb soldier had told her that a war will take place in Cicavica and, "You will be safer there." ⁴⁵⁹²

Q. And during those two days, apart from the soldier, did you notice any officers?

A. In the yard of the house where we were staying, there were some. They had some ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks those were, but, yes, there were.

Q. So you -- you're not able to say what rank these officers held; is that right?

A. No, I can't. But the fact is that they had those epaulettes with stars. I don't know. They had some bands on their arms.

Q. Now, with respect to what the soldier said, that your group should move to Cirez and the fact that Miridite didn't give the reasons for this, did you ask any of the soldiers or officer who were in command of those soldiers the reasons for that, why you had to go? When I say "you," I don't mean just you personally but anybody from your group, including you.

A. No. We didn't know how to talk with them, those soldiers.

Q. On page 5, you say that three soldiers escorted you to the village of Cirez and that there, there were ten soldiers, you say, in brown/black camouflage uniforms and that one of them had five stars on his shoulder; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Are you sure these were brown/black camouflage uniforms and that this man had five stars on his shoulder?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Did anybody ever say to you that there were no such ranks in the army with five stars and these brown/black camouflage ⁴⁵⁹³ uniforms? Even after that, if you talked to somebody about it, did anybody ever say that to you?

A. No.

Q. On page 6 of your statement, you say that you were taken out one by one, all of you who were in the barn, except for Ajete Ademi and Bukurije Ademi, and you say that one of the soldiers -- well, you give a kind of a description of a solder. You say he was tall, about two metres, shaved head but that he was blond, he wore the same kind of uniform like everybody else. "I did not notice any insignia or rank." This blonde soldier, is that the same soldier that you describe on page 7 as the blonde man who kept talking Albanian to you? You stated, as far as he's concerned, "He pretended not to be him but we recognised his voice and his blonde hair." Is it one and the same man?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm not sure what your answer is. Yes what? Yes, it is the same soldier?

A. Yes, the same soldier.

Q. Was he an Albanian?

A. No, he wasn't an Albanian, but he spoke Albanian.

Q. And tell me now, on the basis of what did you conclude that Lumnije, Zahide, Bukurije, Mirishahe, et cetera - the five girls you mentioned - that they were raped when they were taken out of the barn, although you say here, I'm quoting your words: "I did not hear a single one of them when they took them out. I could not see what was happening to them." ⁴⁵⁹⁴ How did you conclude that when none of them had said that to you, according to your very own statement?

A. Because of what they said to us and how they looked. I realised that they hadn't been -- that they had been maltreated in this way. And some of them were killed later.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... say that to you?

A. No, they didn't tell me, but the young girl, Zahide Xhema, whom I talked to after the soldiers who had brought us to the barn came back, said to us, "Oh, dear. Oh, God. What has happened to us? In whose hands have we fallen?"

Q. Tell me, please, the soldiers in the village of Kozica, where you went to later, didn't they ask you anything about these strange allegedly soldiers from Cirez? Didn't they ask you who these soldiers were, what kind of uniforms they had, et cetera?

A. They asked us, but they knew into whose hands they had put us. The soldiers who had escorted us to Cirez were still there when we returned from Kozhnice. They were in front of a house but not Aberdin's [phoen], lower down. And they said to the women that the soldiers who had escorted us didn't want to meet them.

I just wanted to tell him what happened to us, but he went inside. He didn't want to talk to me.

Q. A little while ago, you said that you could not talk to them because you didn't speak the language. In which language did you wish to speak to them?

A. I wanted to say to him in sign language, in any possible way, that ⁴⁵⁹⁵ I wanted to tell him, "You sent us there, and you know what happened to those girls and to my mother as well."

Q. But I understood your statement - this is on page 8 - to mean that they asked you who these soldiers were and what kind of uniforms they had. Do you know why they asked you that?

A. Yes. They asked us. In the afternoon, they took us, those -- the other soldiers, not the first ones, and took us again to Cirez. When we arrived there, I beckoned to one of the soldiers, telling him, "This is where they took those girls away." But he said to me, "Move on. Move on. I know."

Q. Please. Please, let us do this carefully. Isn't that an answer, that the soldiers of the regular army of Yugoslavia that you were in contact with - you were describing it just now - that they had their doubts as to what kind of a formation this was, these people in Cirez who were introducing themselves as belonging to some kind of an army. And then, together with you, they went back to Cirez to see what had happened to the women and girls. Is that right or is that not right?

A. Yes. They returned, but they didn't want us to tell them exactly what happened or where those girls were taken to. They took us to another house belonging to someone called Sherif - I don't know the surname - in Cirez village.

Q. And during the three weeks in Cirez, as you say, didn't these soldiers bring you food, flour for you to bake bread, diapers for the children? Isn't that right?

A. They brought us bread, brought us diapers for the children. There ^{4596 BLANK PAGE 4597} was a storehouse with humanitarian aid nearby, and they did bring the supplies to us.

Q. And now after three weeks spent in Cirez, the soldiers told you to go to Glogovac because Cirez would be attacked; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. What did they say to you? Who would attack Cirez? Who was expected to attack?

A. They said to us that it -- there will be shelling and we want to take you to Gllogoc and, from there, to go to Macedonia.

Q. And did they say to you then that over there, nearby in Cicavica, that there was a major concentration of the KLA and that there would be intensive war operations there in that area of yours? Did they explain that to you?

A. Yes.

Q. So you left that particular place so that you would not be exposed to war operations that were expected to take place.

A. Yes. They told us that, that supposedly we would send you to Macedonia, and that's what happened. And they went. I don't know how buses went in our group, but we didn't go.

Q. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay. Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: Just one question, Your Honour. Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, when asked awhile ago, you said that on the 26th of ⁴⁵⁹⁸ March, when you left your village, you were afraid to stay home because of the Serb forces and militia which were stationed nearby your house. Why were you afraid of them? What were they doing that made you afraid?

A. In Bukosh, in the yards -- in the yard of a house, they killed someone called Islam. He was about 50, 55 years old. I don't know his surname. And also Hyseni, and also a young -- an only son. They killed him in the yard of a house, and so we were scared.

Q. You were scared that that could happen to you as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you, Witness.

MS. ROMANO: That's all, Your Honours.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Rrahmani, thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give your evidence. It is now concluded, and you're free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call Mr. Abullah Salihu.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Saxon, we've got quarter of an hour. We could make a start, at least, and you could call the witness and introduce him, and then we'll have cross-examination tomorrow morning.

MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you. And I believe Ms. Romano has one item she'd like to raise with the Chamber. ⁴⁵⁹⁹

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano, would you like to raise it?

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, I would just like to confirm that the witness K4 won't require any protective measures for tomorrow. And in relation to his statements, they are in the process of being attested under Rule 92 bis right now and will be served mid or late this afternoon. The witness also, when he arrived this afternoon, he gave additional information amplifying the facts that was in the first two statements, and this new material in any form, a statement or notes, will be served as soon as possible.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Saxon. Perhaps you can help us with the atlas while we're waiting.

MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. SAXON: I apologise. The next witness will deal with events that are related to pages 05 and 06 of the Kosovo atlas.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: ABDULLAH SALIHU

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Sir, is your name Abullah Salihu?

A. Yes. ⁴⁶⁰⁰

Q. Mr. Salihu, were you born on the 17th of January, 1954?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you born in the village of Baks in the municipality of Skenderaj in Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the municipality -- excuse me. Is the village of Baks located about 11 kilometres to the east of the town of Skenderaj?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Salihu, did you provide a statement to members of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 24th of October in the year 2000?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And was this statement about events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And in March of this year, the 12th of March, 2002, in the village of Baks, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you made in October of 2000 in the presence of members of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time, did you attest that the copy of the statement provided to you was true and correct?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Recently, in conversations with members of the Office of the Prosecutor, have you become aware of an error in your statement?

A. Yes. I became aware there was an error. It was 200.000 instead ⁴⁶⁰¹ of 20.

Q. Mr. Salihu, just let me ask you some questions so we can get through this quickly and clearly, please.

Let's talk about that error. I believe it's on page 2 of your statement, the first page that contains actual text. And in the fourth paragraph of that page, in the middle, there is a sentence that reads like this: "At the end of the two days' offensive, about 200.000 people were gathered in Cicavica." Should that number be 20.000 rather than 200.000?

A. Yes, it should be 20.000.

Q. So that sentence should read: "At the end of the two days' offensive, about 20.000 people were gathered in Cicavica"?

A. That is correct.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm informed that we don't have copies to provide to you at this time, so I'm not going to offer this statement as an exhibit at this time. I will do that tomorrow morning, first thing. Will you allow me, please, simply to use the time to read the summary of this witness's evidence?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. SAXON: Mr. Salihu serves as imam in the village of Baks where he has lived all of his life. He is married with four children. In his statement, Mr. Salihu describes the first two-day Serb offensive in his area in September of 1998 which covered the area of Gllogoc up to Skenderaj. During this offensive, many houses in the village of Baks were set on fire and most villagers left for the Cicavica mountains. About 20.000 people from the villages of this area gathered in ⁴⁶⁰² Cicavica, and the witness estimated that 180 to 190 persons from this area died in that offensive.

Mr. Salihu estimates that 80 per cent of the population from that area then spent the winter in accommodation provided by international organisations.

After the OSCE withdrew from Kosovo in March 1999, paramilitaries and regular VJ soldiers with heavy armaments were deployed in the village of Cirez and Baks until June 1999. Mr. Salihu describes how the shelling by these Serb forces compelled people residing in the area to seek shelter in the woods.

On the 29th of April, 1999, the Serbs launched a new offensive in the area. They shelled and surrounded the woods at a place called Fush e Molles where many civilians were hiding. Mr. Salihu tells how he and 11 others were captured by paramilitary soldiers, beaten and made to lie down on the ground and threatened that a tank would then drive over them. Due to NATO planes flying overhead at that time, the tank withdrew, and Mr. Salihu's group eventually joined other captured men and were marched off to the mosque in Cirez.

Mr. Salihu was beaten, along with others, in the yard of the mosque. Mr. Salihu was one of 176 civilian men who were then forced inside the mosque, which had been burnt during a previous offensive. On the 30th of April, 1999, the detained men were beaten and lined up. One Serb military officer in charge said that he was looking for a certain Bosnian man named Mirsad. He accused the witness, Mr. Salihu, of being this person, beat him and threatened him with a pistol. Other ⁴⁶⁰³ detainees were also beaten at that time.

Mr. Salihu was then ordered into a truck, one of three trucks, and taken to a place called Shavarina. Here Mr. Salihu saw between 27 and 30 persons taken off the first truck, lined up and machine-gunned into a pit. After these executions, a military jeep arrived and the two remaining trucks of captured men continued on to Gllogoc. On arrival at the police station in Gllogoc, Mr. Salihu was severely beaten, leaving him with broken ribs, a swollen knee, and legs. His group of captured men was then placed inside the Gllogoc cinema.

Mr. Salihu describes how, on the second day in that cinema, a man from his group was executed by a paramilitary who selected whoever he wanted to to kill from that group. The next day, Mr. Salihu described how, when facing a wall, he heard shots behind him and how he was later ordered to put the body of a dead person in a burnt house. Mr. Salihu was kept at the police station for six days and beaten daily, and interrogated for information about the KLA. He and others captured with him and detained had no food for six days. On the seventh day, military trucks collected Mr. Salihu and other men where they were taken to the village of Bukos where he and others were forced to work for VJ reserve forces. He was able to return home when Serb forces withdrew from Kosovo.

Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Salihu, we have to adjourn now for the day. We'll ask you to come back tomorrow morning at 9.00 to conclude your evidence. Would you remember during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about ^{4604 BLANK PAGE 4605} your evidence, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.