Milosevic Transcript 2002-06-10

Page 6569

Monday, 10 June 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Before K6 comes to give evidence, there are just a few matters that I must deal with in private session, with your leave, and one or two in public session, but they really won't take very long. Private session, yes, please, if the Court approves.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁵⁷⁰ Pages 6570 to 6578 redacted, private session.

⁶⁵⁷⁹

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. NICE: Now that we're in open session, Your Honour, just to inform the lawyers operating as the accused's associates that there has been a request via the accused for the return of a statement. I've been trying to contact the associates by telephone over the weekend unsuccessfully. I may have got the wrong number or the number may not have been working, but if they come to me or the case manager, who today is Ms. Wee, or to Mr. Shin, we will give them all the detail they require. On the subject of the accused's associates, can I turn, as I regularly do, to Rule 68, the provision of exculpatory material in respect of which we provided a report last week or the week before. Because of the manner in which we're dealing with Rule 68, that is on the selective and focused basis, it is very important that I keep this topic under the most careful review. I'm going to have another focused review next week. I would invite the amici to contribute any concerns they have about -- through the Court, of course, I would invite the amici ⁶⁵⁸⁰ to contribute any concerns they have and indeed even possibly to attend a meeting with us to make sure that nothing's being missed. And I'm quite happy, in principle, to extend the same invitation to the accused's associates if they want to meet with me, or me and some of my colleagues, to discuss Rule 68 and how we can ensure that the exercises are conducted satisfactorily. I'm more than happy to do so, and as I say, an exercise planned for next week.

Your Honour, I think that's all that's pressing. We've got a few other matters, but we've also got a witness waiting to come in.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let us now turn to that witness. Mr. Nice, we have the summary, for which we're grateful. Given the time constraints and given that much of his evidence deals with the time with which we're normally concerned, perhaps that can be taken fairly quickly.

MR. NICE: May the blinds come down for his arrival.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS K6

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MR. NICE: May this witness be shown a piece of paper with a name on it, which I think has already been provided. I thought it had already been provided. There may be some misunderstanding. Examined by Mr. Nice: ⁶⁵⁸¹

Q. Just look at this piece of paper, please. Don't read out the name on it. Just tell us if that is your correct name. Yes or no.

A. Yes.

MR. NICE: May that piece of paper be exhibited? It's not a very satisfactory piece of paper. I may get another one and substitute for it, but may it be exhibited?

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 218.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this witness is giving evidence with protection of distortion and a pseudonym, but for matters that would reveal his identity, I would seek private session, which will, of course, always be as short as possible. But for the first paragraph on the summary of the background, may we have private session, and after that - which should only take a couple of minutes - move into open session again.

JUDGE MAY: Before we move into private session, let me make it plain to those in the public gallery and elsewhere that any publication of this witness's proper name will be a contempt and will be treated as such.

Yes, Mr. Nice.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁵⁸²

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection, because the only name mentioned by the other side was "Milosevic," and I would like to clear it up and see whether the witness is claiming this person to be a relative of mine or not. ⁶⁵⁸³

MR. NICE: This is still in private session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go into private session

[Private session]

(redacted)

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Are we in open session?

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are. ⁶⁵⁸⁴

MR. NICE:

Q. Witness K6, I think you can help us with the MUP of Kosovo in the period of the 1990s; correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Your experience was with state security, not with the public MUP, and you prefer to deal with the state security rather than with the public MUP; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct. Correct.

Q. The state security part of the MUP in Kosovo, was it divided into a number of divisions or sectors?

A. Yes.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, we can introduce two exhibits. I apologise for the fact that they've had to have handwritten amendments on them, but I realised this morning that they were only in English and that it isn't helpful for the witness to have documents which don't have a language he can understand. So that the original exhibits which have been subject to the normal processing of the institution have been amended with handwritten translations, and they'll have to be re-registered in due course.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have the exhibits now.

MR. NICE: There should only be two. There should only be two. I've withdrawn the public one. Sorry. The first one, the public sector, we needn't trouble with. Let's deal with the state security. Sorry. My mistake for not having communicated with Ms. Wee.

THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit numbers 219 and 220. ⁶⁵⁸⁵

MR. NICE: Thank you very much. Can we place one of them on the overhead projector, please. Can we place this one on the overhead projector. That one on the overhead projector, please. Thank you. This will be --?

THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 219.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

Q. K6, does this adequately set out the overall structure of the state security Kosovo detachments in early 1998?

A. Yes.

Q. We see at the head of the security a box with three names in it, headed by David Gajic.

A. Yes.

Q. Within the box, we see the various detachments for Pristina, Pec, Prizren, and then Kosovska Mitrovica, Gnjilane, and Urosevac. But just looking at Pristina, we see that that was itself broken down into five other detachments: Podujevo, Glogovac, Obilic, Kosovo Polje, and Lipljan, and was under the control of Lutfi Ajazi; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. If we go to the next exhibit, please, 220. Does this set out the subdivisions of state security in early 1998?

A. Yes.

Q. The sectors by which the state security was divided we can see are 8 by number, or whether they're 8 in number, I'm not sure. Which number were you in? Which sector did you work in?

A. In the eighth one, number 8. ⁶⁵⁸⁶

Q. Can you tell us, please, what the eighth sector of the state security did in the mid- to late 1990s?

A. In the mid-1990s, up to 1998, the main job of this sector was detection and investigation of the identity of people connected with terrorism and with the people working against the system which was headed by the accused. The person responsible for this sector was the person mentioned above, whereas I myself, I was involved in concrete activities.

Q. You say that the sector was concerned with people working against the system. Had the sector ever had any involvement with something called political crime, or similar?

A. Only political crimes related to terrorism, against terrorists. The investigation and detection of terrorism, terrorism as the establishment of the KLA and the appearance of the KLA.

Q. We can see from the chart that David Gajic was in charge. Where was he based?

A. He was based in Prishtina. One was responsible for coordination of security in Kosova, and without his authorisation, you couldn't do anything in -- you couldn't undertake any action anywhere in Kosova.

Q. Those with more local control directly over state security operating in Pristina were who?

A. The people are written down here, and I think the accused can see them too, the names too. If you want, I could increase the volume of the microphone.

Q. Just tell us, please: Was there a man called Lakovic who featured? He may not be on the document, but did he feature? And what ⁶⁵⁸⁷ was his name?

A. Milan Lakovic, or Misku.

Q. What was his role?

A. His pseudonym was Misku.

Q. What was his role?

A. He was head of the Prishtina headquarters of state security and responsible for all the directives. He was particularly responsible for the functioning of the sector.

Q. Thank you. And Lutfi Ajazi, his role?

A. Lutfi Ajazi was particularly responsible for detachments, under Prishtina, and was an advisor to Misku.

Q. Thank you. To what extent was Kosovo, under David Gajic, self-contained; to what extent did it have to refer elsewhere?

A. Right up to the top was under the control of David Gajic. He simply had to refer to very high sources in Serbia itself.

Q. Just yes or no: Did you learn to which sources in Serbia he had to refer, to which individuals?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you learn to whom it was he had to refer, and over what period of time was it that you acquired this information?

A. Everyone knew about this. All information went to Stanisic for Kosova, directly to Stanisic, and the accused knows Stanisic very well, of course. I can assure you that the accused was well informed about everything, even the smallest details, on the situation in Kosova with regard to state security, through Stanisic, who was informed by David ⁶⁵⁸⁸ Gajic and Lakovic.

Q. Thank you. Were there units of the police known as special police units, or thought of as special police units?

A. State security had its own special units which were used in questions of state security, and they were such units.

Q. Were they based locally or not?

A. Their main base was in Belgrade, but they also had a base in Kosova.

Q. When they came to Kosovo, who organised their movement?

A. Their movement was organised by a Zoran Dragovic, who was under the command of the others.

Q. In the course of your working for state security, did you see any operations that were joint between them and the army?

A. Well, there was concrete action, but without their cooperation.

Q. Were there any operations that had cooperation between the two forces?

A. There was -- no, there was no concrete cooperation between them, because they were secret special units which did work for state security.

Q. Tell us about these secret special units that did work for state security. Did any of them have names, titles, or other ways by which they might be recognised?

A. There was a special unit called Crvene Beretke, the Red Beret group. They were based in Belgrade, in Serbia.

Q. Did they operate from time to time in Kosovo?

A. Yes. Normally, yes. ⁶⁵⁸⁹

Q. By whom were they led when they operated in Kosovo?

A. Zoran Dragovic. I think he's mentioned later down in the text.

Q. Did they have any other known leader at the time?

A. Well, they did in Belgrade, but I didn't know him. They had their commander there, yes, but we didn't have much connection with them. We were -- there was one who knew them very well, Zeka.

Q. What operations were you aware of the Red Berets carrying out, in general terms, in Kosovo?

A. Their activities were concentrated on anti-terrorism. They called it terrorism, but I can say, I can assure you, that they were committing acts of terrorism themselves. Instead of eliminating terrorism, they were creating terrorism.

MR. NICE: We'll go into private session, and the Court will see the passage concerned.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁵⁹⁰ Page 6590 redacted, private session.

⁶⁵⁹¹

(redacted)

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, we'll get on more quickly if you don't interrupt.

Yes. ⁶⁵⁹²

MR. NICE:

Q. Can we go on to another topic? Did you hear from your superiors, and in particular from Misku, any expressions of attitude towards Albanians that may have affected the policy of state security or driven the policy of state security?

A. Misku quite often said that anyone who agrees [as interpreted] with the policies of the accused would not have a place in Kosova. And the so-called terrorism and the KLA must be exterminated. This is related to what I said before, that it was very open and very much supported the policies of the accused. And he irritated the Albanians there.

Q. The way the transcript reads, K6, is that you said that "anyone --" that Misku said that "anyone who agrees with the policies of the accused would not have a place in Kosovo." I don't know if that's what you said or intended to say or if it's an error --

A. No. Anyone who was not in agreement with the policies of the accused has no place in Kosova. Those who are not in agreement.

Q. Did you hear any public statements of public figures that reflected or accorded with the views of Misku at that time?

A. There were quite a few, yes.

Q. Any public figure in particular whose observations accorded with Misku's approach?

A. There was Jaksic, Trajkovic, and quite a few others. I would say the Serb people in Kosova, they agreed with such policies. They were -- they supported the -- those policies, and that's why the situation got worse and worse. ⁶⁵⁹³

Q. Detail, a lot of detail, a topic, Drenica. Did the state security have access to information about what was happening through Drenica and Malisheva?

A. State security, from the time when the KLA arose, from the very start, was informed concretely about every action and every basis they had. I'm sure of that. And I'm sure also that the accused was well-informed about all the secrets. I can assure you that the accused was informed in detail with regard to the KLA and its appearance on the scene.

Q. Was the information that you acquired or that the service acquired on Drenica in that area from human sources or from mechanical and similar listening devices, or from both?

A. The sources were individuals, verbally and in written reports, and also technical apparatus which was implanted in various spots with various types of apparatus. So there were various sources. And all the information was -- came together. It was joined together and compared to see how it compared with the information given by people. So the result was clear, and everything was under the control of state security as a result.

Q. How full, how complete, did you judge the penetration of the KLA, the knowledge of the KLA had been by the mid to late 1990s?

A. The appearance of the KLA was a necessity, because there was an apartheid system.

JUDGE MAY: We don't want -- if I may stop you. We don't want a political analysis. The question you were asked was: Was there a ⁶⁵⁹⁴ penetration of it? Could you just concentrate on that, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. NICE:

Q. And how full was your knowledge of the KLA at that time? For example, how many people did it have? Where were they? That sort of thing.

A. They were concentrated primarily in Drenica, the KLA. And a small part of them but an increasing part, starting from November 1996, they began -- they had about 200 members.

Q. Would it have been possible at that stage and thereafter to have taken definitive action against the KLA if the state security had been so instructed?

A. Up to that time, anything would have been possible, and they would have been eliminated. I'm sure of this. But state security in Prishtina didn't have authorisation to undertake any such activity for the elimination of the KLA.

Q. Do you know whether it ever drew up plans or sought authorisation to eliminate the KLA?

A. Plans for the elimination of the KLA, in Drenica in particular, were made from 1991 on. But from 1996, 1997, 1998, there were concrete plans. When Drenica was attacked, there were very detailed and drafted plans, yes.

Q. To whom were these plans referred but they were never implemented?

A. All such plans were referred to Serbia. What I mean is to ⁶⁵⁹⁵ Stanisic.

Q. Can I turn from those plans to the judiciary. Who were the principal judges working in your region at that time? Paragraph 19 of the summary.

A. The main judges -- there were three or four judges, investigators. The main one, as far as I remember, was a certain Marinkovic or Mirkovic.

Q. The first name of that judge? Can you remember? And gender?

A. I don't remember the first name, no, but I think it's written down somewhere.

Q. Is it a man or a woman judge?

A. A man. But there was also a woman. There was -- one was a woman, one was a man. There were two judges. Marinkovic was one of them. She was a woman.

Q. What was the manner of operation of those judges, and in particular of Judge Marinkovic, so far as state security work was concerned? How did she deal with it?

A. I can -- I can assure you that she was involved. The employees of state security were -- would bring money to the judges.

Q. Did you ever see Judge Marinkovic with any person who was being dealt with as a suspect for some offence?

A. Could we go into private session?

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this would be, of course, a unique individual, and could lead to identification.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. ⁶⁵⁹⁶

MR. NICE: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, into private session.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁵⁹⁷

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. NICE: Thank you.

Q. In public session now, K6. You've told us a little of the involvement of one paramilitary group. Was there another group known by a particular name and associated with a particular politician that you can tell us about?

A. There was another group active in Kosova with -- I can assure you, they had connections. This was the group of Arkan, Arkan's Tigers. Arkan was born in Kosova, as far as I know. He lived in Prishtina, in the neighbourhood of Ulpiana. His mother was there.

Q. And another group?

A. There was also Seselj's people and the Black Hand. There were quite a few groups.

Q. Just describe for the judges so that they can have a picture of the involvement of these special groups. How did they dress? How did they behave in public places at this time towards Albanians? ⁶⁵⁹⁸

A. When they came to Kosova, they behaved in such an arrogant manner. It was -- you couldn't even describe it in words. They came as so-called liberators of the Serb people. Saviors of the Serb people, they thought themselves as. Whereas the Albanians, in particular, in Drenica, Arkan and his people mistreated them terribly and behaved very arrogantly, and they were looked down upon by the population because they behaved in such a manner.

Q. How did they dress and how were they armed?

A. They were usually dressed in black clothes, with green, and they had special emblems on their clothing, and quite openly they carried Heckler automatic rifles, mark Heckler.

Q. What happened -- sorry.

A. And they had vehicles, jeeps, the best vehicles you could find. They even parked their cars in people's courtyards. They didn't have any problems. Courtyards of the Albanians. No problem.

Q. What happened when they went into places like cafes and restaurants? What sort of things did they do, generally?

A. When they went into restaurants -- for example, in Gllogovc once, Arkan's people went into an Albanian restaurant and broke everything up. They behaved terribly. For other people, it would have been impossible to do that. And they beat people up in Gllogovc, in the restaurant there. And in Prishtina, when they went into a restaurant, they never paid their bills. They went -- even if they went into a Serb restaurant, they never paid the bill.

Q. You've told us about -- something about the Red Berets, but tell ⁶⁵⁹⁹ us: As to these other groups, were they based locally and therefore a permanent presence, or did they come from time to time, and if so, where did they come from?

A. As I said, the Red Berets weren't there. They had their bases in Serbia, and they came to Kosova from time to time if they had orders to do so, for a few days, and then returned to Serbia.

Q. And do you know, from your work within state security, where the orders came from to bring these paramilitaries into Kosovo?

A. Orders for the Red Beret to come into Kosova were given from Zoran Dragovic, but he worked with the other two. But he was primarily responsible for their stays in Kosova.

Q. A little ambiguous. When you say "the other two," you mean the other two paramilitary groups?

A. No, no. For the other two persons I mentioned from security, the first two heads of state security. They worked with Zoran.

Q. Very well.

A. And Zoran was the main person responsible to them.

Q. Do you know who caused either Arkan's Tigers or the Black Hand to come to Kosovo when they did?

A. They came either of their own will or it was the local population, local Serb population, who called them. I don't think they were ordered by -- they were under orders particularly.

Q. You've told us about how they were dressed. Your own unit, state security, was that a civilian-clothed unit or uniformed?

A. Civilian clothes. And there were special units, if you mean them. ⁶⁶⁰⁰

Q. Their uniform, the special units?

A. The special units had uniforms when they were in action; otherwise they were dressed in civilian clothes.

Q. And when they were in action, what were the colour and nature of their uniforms? Can you help us?

A. Yes. They were completely dressed in black. The uniforms were completely black. And their caps were red on their heads. And that's why they were called Red Berets, because of the berets on their heads.

Q. What weaponry was available to the state security and for these special units when they came?

A. The state security and the special units had the most modern arms existing at that time - short and long weapons, such as Scorpions, Hecklers, and 16-millimetre revolvers - and anti-bullet vests which were the best there were at the time.

Q. Now, when it came to vehicles and armoured vehicles, were those available to security, to the MUP, at all, and if so, was it to the public as opposed to the state security?

A. The armoured personnel carriers were owned by the public and by the public units of security. They had their own armoured carriers. Whereas the special units didn't have -- I didn't see any armoured personnel carriers with them, so I couldn't really tell you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, if that's a convenient moment.

MR. NICE: Yes. I don't have a great deal more to ask of this witness.

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. ⁶⁶⁰¹ Witness K6, would you remember, in this adjournment and any others there may be, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over. That does include the members of the Prosecution team. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. K6, a few more short matters of detail. Just yes or no to this: Can you -- can you help at all with the fate of a man called Enver Maloku? Just yes or no. This is not in the summary. It's in the statement.

A. Yes.

Q. In a sentence --

A. Correction: No.

Q. You know nothing about what happened to him?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on to the next question.

MR. NICE:

Q. The smuggling of arms from Albania, did you get to learn anything of that?

A. Well, look, for the first time from Albania, in 1991, Adem Jashari, with five of his friends, came back to Kosova, while the weapons that were brought in Albania were mainly taken also from Serbia, were mainly purchased from Serbia.

Q. As to those coming from Albania, did state security maintain ⁶⁶⁰² observations on what was happening? Paragraph 15 of the summary.

A. The weapons that came from Albania, as concerns these weapons, the state security knew everything about them. However, I repeat, they never undertook without concrete authorisation from their superiors.

Q. If steps were not taken to restrict the importation of weapons coming from Albania, why not? What reason was given for not stopping the flow?

A. As concerns this question, the accused would rather give a better answer. However, the main aim was that one day, an armed war should start between the KLA, meaning between the Albanian -- the army of the people -- of the Albanian people and of Serbia. This is the scenario that Serbia itself prepared and it was aware of. And its aim was totally something else.

And as far as Kosova is concerned, I'm sure the accused can give a better answer to this.

Q. Can we just have a look at a couple of directories -- a couple of exhibits - I beg your pardon - to make a couple of points. First of all, a temporary telephone directory I would like you to look at, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 221.

MR. NICE:

Q. This exhibit - thank you very much. 221 - is said to be a Republic of Serbia, Ministry of the Interior Temporary Directory of Users of Radiotelephone Links.

MR. NICE: And it comes from the Kosovo collection of documents, Your Honour. ⁶⁶⁰³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁶⁶⁰⁴

Q. We see on it that although it's Ministry of the Interior, on the first page it's got "Channels for Coordination, VJ Army." So does this help us at all with understanding the coordination between the state security and the army? Was there such coordination?

A. This shows the coordination between the VJ and the public security, whereas the state security was -- for example, there is only one person who would serve as coordinator with them during actions or operations, whereas the figures that I see below here are concerned with the state security.

Q. Very well. If you'd turn over four pages, please. And I know that you're concerned not to speak too much about the public security, of which you have less knowledge than the state security, but if we turn over four pages to something called code tables - do you have that? - we see a listing, under the code "yellow," of various weaponry: machine-gun Browning, impact rifle grenade, impact shaped charge shell, hand-held rocket launcher, and so on.

By which group or groups were these weapons held, please?

A. Excuse me. The question is not clear to me. It's not very clear.

Q. Do you have the code table that's headed "yellow"? This is the same document.

A. Yes.

Q. You see the listing of weaponry there, starting with the M-84 machine-gun and going on to the Browning?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. By which part of MUP forces, if either, were these weapons held, ⁶⁶⁰⁵ please? It includes a Praga and a recoilless gun.

A. The MUP forces were the public security forces.

Q. And these weapons were held by them; is that right?

A. These weapons -- yes. The police, yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. NICE: Can we look at one other document, please -- two other documents, but first of all, this one.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 222.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

Q. This is a document from the military department at Kosovska Mitrovica, and we saw reference to that department earlier. Do you have the original in front of you?

MR. NICE: And we can put the English on the overhead projector, the original for the witness, please, to make life easier.

A. At the moment, no.

MR. NICE: Leave the English version on the overhead projector. Sorry. I should have made it -- that's the one. And give the Serbian version to the witness to read in front of him. Thank you.

Q. This, then, is a document from the military department dated the 28th of November, 1997. Pausing there: You left the state security at about what time, K6? About when?

A. 1998.

Q. And it's marked as urgent and to the Pristina military command. And at the end of the document -- I don't ask anybody to turn it over, but we can see on the English it comes from Colonel Radisa Nastic. Did you ⁶⁶⁰⁶ know who he was?

A. No.

Q. If we look in the first paragraph, there's only a small point I want you to help us with from this document. It says, about four lines down on the first paragraph:

"In the Srbica municipality, on the 26th of November, 1997, a MUP column was ambushed and shot at with rifles, machine-guns, rocket launchers and grenades. Because of the large number of terrorists, about 50 according to our estimates, MUP helicopters were engaged." And then it goes on to deal with fierce fighting. Did MUP have access to helicopters, please, K6?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this the public MUP rather than your part of the MUP?

A. This is the public MUP.

Q. Thank you very much. And then the last document, please, that I'd like you to look at, which is a document from earlier on and still within your period of service.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 223.

MR. NICE: If the original could be placed with the witness, and we'll just put the English version on the overhead projector. We're going to be looking at different --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Original to the witness and -- thank you.

Q. Now, on the first page of this document we can see that it is dated the 19th of April. It's from the Republic of Serbia's Ministry of ⁶⁶⁰⁷ Interior and it goes to the Secretariat of the Interior, to all organisational units.

Now, the first passage in the English version on the first page I'm not troubled with, under general Roman I. We can observe on page 3, if the usher would be so good, that one of the listed secretariats, at number 24, is Pristina. So that's your secretariat. If we go on to page 4, we come to a general heading, Roman II, in the middle of the page. Page 4, at the bottom. Thank you. And if you'd find the passage in the original that starts with the Roman II, K6, under ordinary number 1, dealing with organisation of the MUP, it says: "Proceeding from the ministry's internal organisation, internal and other communications should be carried out in the following manner: A department of internal affairs or a police station shall report all occurrences, events, and information of interest for security to the SUP to which it belongs and the secretariat to the ministry." And then over the page, please, page 5, top of the page, it allows for direct communications with the ministry or other secretariat in emergency cases.

The direct communication to the Serbian Ministry of Security matters, does that accord with your experience, K6?

A. These things were more or less regular. Every time before the beginning of the action or operation, there was concrete information as regarded the persons who were leaders. For example, in municipalities or in detachments.

Q. Very well. You've also told us about Misku's movements. Did you ⁶⁶⁰⁸ learn how regularly or irregularly was he to travel to Belgrade? What was the frequency?

A. Misku usually went to Belgrade to send their secret documents or other information. He would go on Tuesdays or Thursdays every second week. But if necessary, he would go every week. But mainly he would go on a Tuesday or a Thursday.

Q. We can stay on the same page we were on, please, usher, page 5. And go down to paragraph 4. We see the following: "Police stations for the control of state border crossings send information directly to the relevant ministry -- to the relevant administration in the ministry and to the secretariat on whose territory they are located." First of all, can you help us with this: State border crossings, what's meant by that and would any boundary between Kosova and Serbia be included in that definition?

A. No. This does not include the boundaries between Kosova and Serbia. This includes every border checkpoint. The -- he was responsible, and he would hand in information to every border checkpoint in every municipality he would go to, and then the relevant bodies would send it further to their supervisor bodies.

Q. At the time when you were in this service, were there checkpoints between Kosova and Serbia or not? And if you can't remember, say so.

A. At the time when I worked, between Kosova and Serbia there was no border checkpoint. There was one. However, there was none that served as a mere border checkpoint and that was under control all the time. As far as such a thing is concerned, I do not know. ⁶⁶⁰⁹

Q. And then finally, over the page to page 6 and to paragraph 7. Reference to Serbia and Montenegro now. "Communication between secretariats in the Republic of Serbia and corresponding organisational units in the Republic of Montenegro will be carried out through the ministry..." that is through the ministry in Belgrade. Did you have any experience of that happening?

A. Normally, yes, there were.

Q. Did you discover - this is page 9 of the statement, not of the summary - did you discover one way or another whether the orders that you were receiving, you say from Stanisic, effectively, incorporated decision-making with Montenegro or not?

A. No. The decision-making regarding Kosova, even though he was responsible for Montenegro as well.

Q. My mistake. I don't understand quite your answer. It may be my question.

Was there any involvement of Montenegro in the decisions that were made about the MUP in Kosova?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you learn about that?

A. Such a thing I learned from my colleagues, that is the fact that even the Albanian employees of the state security who quit working or were dismissed were also -- part of them were also those who worked in Montenegro as well.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't think I'm going to get much further on that, and I'm not going to take time on it. ⁶⁶¹⁰

Q. K6, you are in a position, I think, to give an account, if it's relevant and if anybody wants to hear about it, of the origins and development of the KLA - just yes or no - as you understood it to be?

A. Yes, except I would like for it to be a private session, if it's possible. If not, it's still okay, but anyway.

Q. I'm not going to ask about it. I'm just checking to see if you're in a position to deal with that if necessary.

The second thing is you left --

A. Yes.

Q. -- you left the service in 1998, I think, or 1997, 1998, and you can give an account of what happened to you and your family if asked and if it's relevant?

A. I can. Except that that has to be a closed session.

Q. And on page 4 of the summary, paragraph 2 of the Roman II sub-heading "Proofing sessions." Just a couple of questions about one particular event and joint -- and joint operations. Just yes or no: Did you learn about what happened at the Jashari family compound? Just yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. By that stage, had you already left the service?

A. At the time, I had not left the service, no.

Q. From whom did you learn about this event?

A. Could this go into closed session?

Q. I'll come back to it in -- perhaps we can go into private session for that straight away. ⁶⁶¹¹

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁶¹²

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I want it. Yes, I do. But I should like to have more time than the opposite side, because the witness has a statement of 25 pages. That's how long it is. And I don't think it's fair for you to give me the same amount of time as the Prosecution had.

JUDGE MAY: The same amount. If at the end you've made good use of your time, you can make an application for more, but I'm not going to encourage it, given the nature of his evidence. An hour and a half, which you will have, should be more than sufficient. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. How much time do I have, then? Could you tell me? Because sometimes -- how much? How long?

JUDGE MAY: One hour and a half. ⁶⁶¹³

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's very little time for such an extensive statement, Mr. May, but I shall do my best and endeavour to do so. I hope the witness will give short answers, but I do hope that you will extend that time for me, because an hour and a half is not enough. But let's move on to the questions.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] According to your knowledge, the KLA planned an assassination attempt on Rugova; is that correct?

A. It's correct. And further on -- may I extend my answer as concerns this?

JUDGE MAY: Not for the moment. Let's try and keep the answers short, please, and we can get through the evidence more quickly. There will be a chance at the end for the Prosecution to take up any points which they think relevant.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So it's correct, is it?

JUDGE MAY: He said so. He said it's correct.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The KLA rejected people who supported Rugova; is that correct?

A. This is partly correct. When I say "partly," then I might as well answer yes, due to time reasons. Partly, I repeat.

Q. Very well. According to your information and knowledge, in the operations of the KLA, Turks, Iranians, Bosnians, and so on, they all took part; is that correct?

A. It's correct that there were Iranians. ⁶⁶¹⁴

Q. And Turks and Bosnians as well; right?

A. Correct.

Q. Otherwise, according to your knowledge and information, Jakup Krasniqi said that there were a lot of Islamic elements from Iran, Turkey, and other elements in the KLA; is that right?

A. I do not believe this was the case as regards what you are saying; however, the main aim was to have Kosova freed once and for always. That's as much as we know.

Q. I should like to remind you to answer my questions. And on page 24, in the one-but-last paragraph of your statement, it says, and I am going to read it:

"Among the Albanians, there is panic being disseminated since Jakup Krasniqi said, a long while ago, that there were Islamic elements in the KLA, such as people from Iran, Turkey, and other countries." Therefore, that is something that you yourself stated. Do you stand by that or are you changing your testimony now? Yes or no, please.

A. I have nothing to change.

Q. All right. Krasniqi and Sulejman Selimi, for example, said that unless -- if NATO does not supply us with weapons, we will continue and obtain funds and supplies from our Islamic brothers. That's what you say. Is that correct?

A. It's correct that he stated such a thing.

Q. All right. Now, is it correct that they didn't select their methods in liquidating people, they didn't choose their methods?

A. Of course, like only Serbs can. ⁶⁶¹⁵

Q. All right. And otherwise, a successful operation, according to KLA criteria, for which money was received, was if policemen were killed. That was considered successful. Is that true?

A. According to them, every killing of policemen was a success. However, I may say that the KLA also defended the population. This was the reason why the KLA came up on the political scene.

Q. Could you give me an answer to what I'm asking you? Is that correct, what I asked you?

A. [In Serbian] Correct. Correct.

Q. Because it says here, on page 22, paragraph 3, they were given 5.000 German marks for every successful operation, and "successful" meant, i.e., where police were killed. All right. Let's move on. Operations in 1998, and especially towards the end of 1998, were organised by Hashim Thaci, Sulejman Selimi, Rexhep Selimi, Jakup Krasniqi and Sokol Bashota; is that correct?

A. The attacks were coordinated and organised every time. That is correct.

Q. Of these individuals, right, the ones that I just mentioned?

A. Only -- yes, yes.

Q. All right. Where there were no police attacks, they organised their own attacks on peaceful villages; is that correct?

A. No.

Q. Please. On page 23, the second sentence in the last paragraph states the following:

"In places where there were no police attacks, they organised ⁶⁶¹⁶ their own attacks on peaceful villages."

I've read out the whole sentence, from the capital letter to the full stop at the end of it. So is it true or not? That's your statement. Yes or no.

A. [In Serbian] No.

Q. Does that mean that you are retracting this portion of your statement, you're going back on it?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have to find it. Just a moment. We'll have to find it in the English first of all.

Mr. Nice, can you tell us?

MR. NICE: I haven't caught up with the accused on this at the moment. He says it's on page 23.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version it is on page 23, and it is the last paragraph, second sentence, which states: "In --"

MR. NICE: Page 24 of the English, I think, and I think it's in the second paragraph. Yes. There we are.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The paragraph starts with --

JUDGE MAY: We're going to find it.

MR. NICE: The witness may be able to follow it in the B/C/S version I've got. I think he may be able to deal with the --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Put it in front of him, please.

MR. NICE: Perhaps I can hand that to him. One coming. And if he can follow it in the B/C/S, then if the accused will give him a chance to find the references in the B/C/S version, we'll probably be able to find ⁶⁶¹⁷ them in English, bearing in mind that English is generally a little longer in text than B/C/S.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please bear in mind that when I am quoting the statement, I quote it word for word, and we have never established that I have ever quoted anything incorrectly. So checking this out only wastes time.

JUDGE MAY: But it's not suggested that you've misquoted it. If it was, it would be said. But what must happen, as a matter of fairness to a witness, is that if a passage is put to him, he should have the opportunity of seeing it so that he can deal with it. Now, then, Witness K6, have you found the passage which has been referred to: "In places where there were no police attacks, they organised their own attacks on peaceful villages." Now, would you like to give us your comment on that? That's what the statement says.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it possible to go into private session?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, if it's -- let the witness go into private session, if it's necessary.

Yes, briefly into private session.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁶¹⁸

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm going to ask you brief questions. Give me brief yes or no answers, please, before we go into checking them, and then we'll see. They would take some men from some houses and they would beat them unconscious. Is that right? Is that what you say? Yes or no.

A. Those who were members of the service or cooperated with the police.

Q. I'm talking about the KLA.

A. Yes. They did what I said they did.

Q. They burnt houses, didn't they?

A. [In Serbian] No, they didn't.

Q. You say they didn't?

A. [In Serbian] After the war. After the war, not now. ⁶⁶¹⁹

Q. Very well. You said they didn't. They attacked the Berisha family in the village of Dobra Voda; is that correct?

A. It is for a fact, yes.

Q. The KLA shot otherwise at Leke Berisha's house, who was -- he was a teacher; is that right? Albanian teacher.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And the same fate was one that was experienced by the Buzhalla family. They - their house was completely burnt and the whole family taken out; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the KLA and Bardhec Laci, who taught gymnastics in Klina, they did the same to his house. His house was burnt down too; right?

A. Yes. Normally, yes.

Q. They wanted to kill Leke Berisha and Bardhec Laci. So that's true, is it? And since you have relativised the answer to a series of questions, my series of questions, I'm going to read just this last paragraph for us to be able to grasp the entirety. So this is all contained in one paragraph:

"Until the end of 1998, all these operations were conducted at the direction and organised by people like Jakup Krasniqi, Sulejman Selimi, Rexhep Selimi, Hashim Thaci, and Sokol Bashota. In places where there were no police attacks, they organised their own attacks on peaceful villages. They would take some men from some houses and they would beat them unconscious. Sometimes they would burn houses, particularly houses of rich people. For example, in the village of Dobra Voda where they ⁶⁶²⁰ attacked the Berisha family, they beat them and tried to kill them in the belief that they had all their wealth from the Serbs. These members of the KLA wanted to murder Leke Berisha who was an Albanian-language teacher. They burnt his house. Other villages that suffered the same fate were Cerovik where there was the Buzhalla family. They brought out all the family and burnt their house and told them they would do the same to them as they do for the Shka, an insulting expression for Serbs. The same happened to Bardhec Laci from Dobra Voda, who was a physical education teacher in Klina. They beat him up and intended to kill him because he did not allow members of the KLA to run a battle line through his house. They burnt his house. Laci and his family were saved only because of the intervention of other villagers." Therefore, these are all the questions that I asked and linked up, and you gave a positive response and replied in the affirmative. Now, let's move on.

Luz Buzhalla, his house was also burnt; is that correct?

A. It is not correct.

Q. And is it true they not only burnt his house but that Hashim Thaci drew lines on his chest with knives? He drew different drawings on his chest, using knives. Is that true or not?

A. It is not correct.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Witness K6, why, if it's not correct, is it in your statement?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I please remind -- may I remind the witness and ask him questions? I have the right to do so. ⁶⁶²¹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Amongst the individuals who --

JUDGE MAY: I've asked him a question. I've asked him a question.

Yes?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we go into closed session, please?

JUDGE MAY: No. Let's -- go on, Mr. Milosevic. We'll get an explanation due course.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. "Among the other people who the KLA beat up were -- other persons beaten by the KLA include Luz Buzhalla from Cerovik who worked as a traffic policeman in Pristina. They burnt his house. They also drew lines on his chest with knives. Hashim Thaci did this. They said to him: `You used to work in the police, and that's what you did to people.'"

I'm going to skip over the next portion where it says: "Fortunately from Luz [as interpreted] the journalist Pren Buzhalla from Zadar arrived and Pren was a friend of Rexhep Selimi and saved him from death."

I read it in so that you don't accuse me of getting it wrong. And then you go on to say: "There were many such cases, particularly against wealthy people, involving their shops and homes. Their property was burnt and destroyed. This was done by the KLA persons I have mentioned. Sokol ⁶⁶²² Bashota is from Cerovik. The Selimi brothers have a house near the train station at Klina," and so on and so forth. That is how your statement reads.

Is that correct? And that there were much such cases as I quoted from your statement.

A. Could we please go into closed session?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object, because this has nothing to do with the witness's identity.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I can see at the beginning of the next paragraph what may be troubling the witness.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Witness K6, as you'll appreciate, it is difficult in the extreme to conduct an examination going in and out of private session. We have considered what is appropriate. Now, the only occasion on which a private session is appropriate is if there is any risk of your identity being revealed. We cannot, for the moment, see what is involved in this, but we will allow this as a last occasion to see if there is any risk of your identity being revealed by the answer. We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁶⁶²³

(redacted)

[Open session]

[Trial Chamber confers]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that the KLA caused some incidents to provoke the police?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes or no.

A. [In Serbian] Yes.

Q. And is it correct that the KLA burnt whole villages in order to conceal some of its own crimes? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. You said no.

A. [In Serbian] No. No.

Q. According to your knowledge, there were many cases where the KLA killed some family members, and the families were not allowed to talk about this for fear that they would be killed. Is that correct or not?

A. It is correct.

Q. Now, as you challenged my previous question, let me just read out ⁶⁶²⁴ the beginning of the one but last paragraph on page 24. It is one paragraph after the one that we read out a moment ago and it states the following: "The KLA would cause some of these incidents to provoke the police to attack and burn villages and thereby cover up some of their own crimes. There would be many cases where persons have had members of their family killed by the KLA, but they would not dare speak out for fear of being murdered."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon. I am drawing your attention to this fact, to this portion which says that witnesses were not allowed to speak out because they were afraid they would be killed by the KLA, and I would suggest that in light of this fact, that you assess the value of this witness which the opposite side is bringing forth.

JUDGE MAY: Let us go on rather than making speeches. We can read it for ourselves.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, is it true that other incidents have -- which they conducted have been attributed to the police? For example, bombs in the Pristina cafe. Is that true? Is that correct?

A. It is correct.

Q. All right. Persons like Hashim Thaci did none of these things because of the interest of people, of their own people, but rather for their own personal interests or the interests of certain individuals. Is that right?

A. They operated upon their own interests and the interests of ⁶⁶²⁵ Serbia.

Q. Are you referring to Hashim Thaci? That's who I'm asking you about.

A. [In Serbian] Yes. [In Albanian] Yes.

Q. And I would like to remind you of your sentence in the middle of this paragraph. And let me read the entire sentence: "The Serbs are capable of doing anything in the interests of their own people, while Hashim Thaci does these things out of personal interest or the interests of certain individuals who he appointed to his own government without asking the people or anyone else."

Is that true or not?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true that these people from the KLA are responsible for the murder of Ahmet Krasniqi who was the Minister of Defence in Bukoshi's government in exile? Is that true or not?

A. It is correct.

Q. Is it true that Ahmet Krasniqi was killed by Milaim Zeka? Is that true?

A. That I do not know.

Q. It says in your statement: "This was done by Milaim Zeka on the instructions of Rexhep and Sulejman Selimi."

So this was done pursuant to the orders of Rexhep and Sulejman Selimi, and we know who they are.

So pursuant to their orders, Milaim Zeka killed Ahmet Krasniqi. This is what it says in your statement at the bottom of this paragraph. ⁶⁶²⁶

JUDGE MAY: Just read the next sentence. "This has been published," it says, "in the Kosovo paper in Zurich." Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This group also has a list of people that should be murdered. Mr. May, he doesn't say that he's referring to the Bota Sot newspaper. He's saying -- he's describing what had happened and adds that this was also published in the Albanian paper that is published in Zurich.

JUDGE MAY: We can read it, and we have his response. Let's go on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Incidentally, the KLA undertook actions that had nothing to do with the alleged Serb offences on Albanian villages in Kosovo. However, occasionally this was done by the KLA simultaneously. Is that true?

A. The KLA would receive attacks where they expected the police to attack them and not offensive against the people.

Q. Can you please tell me, can this pertain to what you wrote in the last paragraph on page 24? This is the following paragraph after the one that I quoted, and it says so in the first sentence: "These actions of the KLA were undertaken unrelated to the offensives of Serbian forces on the Albanian villages in Kosovo. However, this was happening during the same time."

Is that true or not?

A. Yes.

Q. Based on your information, Rexhep Qosja, Hyadjet Hyseni, Luljeta Pula, and Adem Demaci were more interested in their own position than in ⁶⁶²⁷ the interests of the people of Kosovo. Is that right?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. And based on your own information, there were even people who had to send in one car a month to the KLA and turn it over either to Hashim Thaci or Krasniqi or Bashota; is that right?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Well, if you don't know, let me remind you. Here, on page 24, just two paragraphs above, it says: "This man," and this is somebody living in Macedonia, "who came in with his wife, had to send the KLA a car every month and hand it over either to Bashota, Thaci, or Krasniqi. He sent more than 12 cars to the KLA. The wife of this man is the sister of Leke Berisha, who is currently in Macedonia," and so on and so on.

Don't let me waste time any more. Did I refresh your memory sufficiently?

A. Yes.

Q. Brothers Kryeziu, Albanians, together with their sons, near Kijevo, were killed by Hashim Thaci, Rexhep Selimi, and Jakup Krasniqi; is that right?

A. It is true.

Q. Now, tell me, please: Do you know how did Hashim Thaci obtained his nickname "Snake," "Zmija"?

A. The name of "Snake," I believe he took that name on because of Serbian.

Q. I didn't quite understand your answer, but let us not waste any ⁶⁶²⁸ more time.

So these brothers Kryeziu, who, as you say, were killed by the people whose names I just read out, they had a gas station and they had a lot of money; is that right? Was that the main motive for their murder?

A. Correct. I don't know.

Q. And in 1997, there was an attack on a police station in Glogovac, in Podujevo, that was also organised by the KLA; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. So in that attack on Glogovac, in addition to Selimi brothers, Hashim Thaci participated as well; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And based on your information, brothers Jashari, Hamze and Adem, in 1994, once again commenced terrorist activities directed against various targets: police, civilians, and so on. Is that right?

A. Against the police and the police cooperators.

Q. And you call police collaborators those Albanians who worked in state service; is that right?

A. No. Collaborators are others. It is those persons who would give information regarding the KLA.

Q. All right. So Jashari, Hamze and Adem, in 1995, started planning attacks on police stations and policemen; is that right?

A. It is right.

Q. And that year, when a police station in Podujevo was attacked, that was done by the Jasharis, Sulejman Selimi, and Azir Pajaziti; is that right? ⁶⁶²⁹

A. Azir Pajaziti. That is correct.

Q. At that time, there was an attack on the police station in Glogovac, when two policemen were killed and four seriously wounded, and that was also done by Adem Jashari and Rexhep Selimi; is that right?

A. By the KLA. Correct.

Q. I'm saying Adem Jashari and Rexhep Selimi. Is that right? Yes, KLA that is certainly, but I'm specifying the names.

A. Correct. He was also the commander.

Q. Very well. And in 1966 [sic], Adem Jashari and the current commander of the KLA, Zeka, attacked the police checkpoint near Gornja Klina and killed two policemen; is that right? I apologise. I said "1966." It was in 1996. I meant to say 1996, and it was a slip of the tongue. Is that right?

A. They were from the KLA.

Q. I know they were from the KLA, but what I'm asking you: Is that true that in 1996 they killed two policemen when they attacked the checkpoint near Klina?

A. Normally, yes.

Q. And Ejup Bajgora, Albanian, was killed by Rexhep Selimi and Adem Jashari; is that true?

A. He was killed, but I do not know exactly from whom. It is correct that he was killed, but I don't know who did it.

Q. It says, in paragraph 4, page 22: "Rexhep and Sulejman Selimi and Adem Jashari were given a task to conduct an operation in western Kosovo, in Pec and Kline. In June of ⁶⁶³⁰ 1997, Selimi and Adem Jashari, as well as Pata [phoen]," which is a nickname of one of them, "killed an inspector of state security, Ejup Bajgora, in front of his own house."

This is what it says in your statement. Is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Is it true that in 1997, eight policemen were killed and that it is well known that Rexhep Selimi participated in these murders, together with Adem Jashari and Azir Pajaziti? Is that right?

A. Right. Yes, people of the KLA took part. It was not the civilian population who participated.

Q. I'm not bringing into question whether it was the KLA. I'm specifying the name. So it was Adem Jashari, Hamze Jashari, and the brother of Adem Jashari; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. So based on your information, Hamze Jashari, when the conflict broke out in Prekaz, the much-mentioned conflict, was together with Adem Jashari in the house; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Is it true, based on your information, that Hamze Jashari intended to surrender?

A. According to what I heard from my connections, it has been right like this.

Q. However, Adem Jashari threatened to kill him if he were to surrender; is that right?

A. This is what the police has been declaring through the ⁶⁶³¹ connections.

Q. And the first one to shoot on the police was Adem Jashari; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Did he threaten the entire family? Did he say that he was going to kill them if they surrendered?

A. According to the walkie-talkies and the information given by the police, that's right.

Q. Just in order to remind you about the conversation between Adem -- and this can be found in your statement on page 23. "The conversation between Adem and his family, I heard about this from an informant and a boy, a 10-year-old son of Adem, who survived the incident and told about this to the members of the KLA. He was told never to repeat this to anybody else because his father was a hero for his own people," and so on and so on.

You go on to say that the fighting continued for another two days, after which the police withdrew, which is of no relevance for this cross-examination.

A. After the assassination of Adem Jashari and his family, the police retreated.

Q. Well, I read you this fragment. That's true? Yes or no, please.

A. Right.

Q. And the fact that the boy was told never to repeat this to anyone else; is that right?

A. It's not right. He has been told that his father was a hero. ⁶⁶³²

Q. Yes, but the boy was also told never to tell anyone about what had happened and that his father wanted to kill the entire family. Is that right or not? The boy was told not to tell anyone about this because his father was allegedly a hero.

A. And he's really a hero.

Q. Do you mean because he killed that many Albanians and Serbs, as you just confirmed to us?

JUDGE MAY: We're not going into an argument about this. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In 1998, Rexhep Selimi and Zeka carried out an operation against the police station in Klina; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. And during 1996 and 1997, the KLA conducted many operations against the police; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Is it also true that the KLA killed Skender Gashi, an Albanian from Glogovac, in 1997?

A. He has been an employee of the police, and it is true that they have killed him.

Q. So the KLA killed Gashi in 1997; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Sokol Bashota took part in that murder as well, and his secret code-name was "Number Eleven"; is that right? ⁶⁶³³

A. I don't know it for sure.

Q. But that's what you wrote down in your statement: "Sokol Bashota participated in that murder. Bashota's secret code-name was 'Number Eleven.'"

This can be found on page 21, last paragraph: "Sokol Bashota was involved in this murder. Bashota's code-name was 'Number Eleven.' The KLA used numbers to identify some of their people."

And then you go on to say: "There were other murders as well in 1996, which were mentioned in the newspapers. Members of the KLA killed about 20 people in 1997, when the conflict began to escalate."

Is that right or not?

A. KLA has killed those people who have been employees of the police and those people who have cooperated with the police. It has been a revenge. [In Serbian] Right.

Q. I'm asking about what you said here, that they killed 20 people in 1997. Is that right or not?

A. Right.

Q. And is it true that in 1998 they attacked the courthouse in Mitrovica? Is that right?

A. Right.

Q. And is it true, based on your information, that the KLA for a time had their base in the village Likovac, in the municipality of Srbica, and also in the village of Dragobilje, municipality of Malisevo? Is that ⁶⁶³⁴ true?

A. It has been well known. It has been made public.

Q. All right. And from there, they conducted operations in Junik, Decani, Malisevo, Orahovac, Istok, and Shallska Bajgora [phoen], is that right, and other places as well, including Obilic?

A. It's true. Wherever it was necessary.

Q. And when you speak about strongholds abroad, is it true that the KLA had strongholds in Germany, Switzerland, and Belgium? Is that true?

A. True.

Q. Based on your information, the founders of the KLA were the brothers Gervalla, back in 1995, among others; is that right?

A. It is not right.

Q. Not right?

A. [In Serbian] No.

Q. Let me just find this. Your statement is much too long. Here, on page 19, there is a subheading that says "the KLA." And then you go on to say:

"The founders were the Gervalla brothers, Isuf and Bardhec, and they established it in the KLA. They lived in Ludwigsburg." And then you go on to say that they were killed there by the SUP in 1982. Is that true? And also, is it true what you go on to claim, that the people who killed these brothers were Lutfi Ajazi, Selim Broshi, and Jusuf Karakushi, all of them Albanians? Is this true or not? True or not?

A. It is true that these people have been killed by the police, by ⁶⁶³⁵ the secret security.

Q. You say in your statement that this was done by Lutfi Ajazi, Selim Broshi, and Jusuf Karakushi. So is it true or not?

A. It is true. They have been employees of the security.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. Mr. Milosevic, you've got 40 minutes left. I notice you've spent 50 minutes purely cross-examining about the KLA, which of course was not the centre at all of this witness's evidence. If you want to ask him about his evidence, you should do so in the next 40 minutes. No doubt in due course you can bring your own evidence about the activities of the KLA.

The second point I want to make is this: that when you are preparing your cross-examination on a statement, it is much easier to go through the statement chronologically and it makes your -- enables you to make your points much more effectively, rather than going backwards and forwards from place to place. Would you bear that in mind. It is much easier for those who are following the cross-examination if you go logically from point to point, chronologically through the statement. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. [No interpretation]

THE INTERPRETER: Can you wait, please?

JUDGE MAY: We have got no interpretation. Yes. Would you like ⁶⁶³⁶ to try again, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. [No interpretation]

THE INTERPRETER: B/C/S interpreters are not here.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can start now.

THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. You said that the MUP of Serbia exists, the MUP of Kosovo, the MUP of Vojvodina. Do you know that that isn't true? There's just the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.

A. It is true that MUP used to exist and exists.

Q. All right. I've spoken about the killings dating back to 1982. What was I doing at that time?

A. I can only answer as concerns the period of 1997 and 1998.

Q. But you described the demonstrations in Pristina in 1984, and you even claim that Jusuf Karakushi, an Albanian, was in command of the police that killed 20 people. Why are you saying that?

A. I can answer only to questions regarding the years 1996, 1997, 1998.

Q. I am asking you precisely for the same reason, because in your statement you mention all these years. But let's move on to my next question, something that you testified to live. And you said that Hazir Mazreku killed Lutfi Ajazi. You say that this was on orders from the DB. Is that right?

A. It is true. ⁶⁶³⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁶⁶³⁸

Q. Would you concentrate your efforts now, please, because when you explained to us here orally, you told us that they waited for Mazreku and that they pulled him out of a car, that they beat him. And once they'd beaten him, they riddled him with bullets. That's what you said here, and I think we can read it in the LiveNote.

And in your statement, you furthermore state something quite different. The alleged killing of Mazreku by the police, in your statement on page -- I'll tell you the page straight away but it was page 5, you say that they first hit him with a dredger - they rigged this - then toppled the car off the road and then riddled him with bullets. When were you telling the truth, when you made your statement or while you were testifying here on the alleged killing of Mazreku by the police?

A. The truth is that he -- that he was taken in the car by the special units. However, I don't know where you took this from, but you say that allegedly it was a lie. The truth is the second one in the statement.

Q. Yes. But you said that they beat him. And in your statement, on page 5 --

JUDGE MAY: You've been over this, Mr. Milosevic. You've made your point. I don't recollect that, but you may be right. We can check it with the LiveNote in due course. Let's move on to another point.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And then you go on to explain that Zoran Dragovic, the person whom you say was in command of the special units, came to your office at 5.00 ⁶⁶³⁹ a.m. in the morning. What were you doing in your office at 5.00 a.m.? What were you doing that early on in the morning, at 5.00, in your office?

A. Zoran Dragovic was not a commander, but he was the person in charge or responsible when the special units, the Red Berets, came there, and I was working on my shift that day.

Q. All right. As you're mentioning the Red Berets and their actions, you said that they arrested people that were suspected of anti-state activities and for terrorism; is that right?

A. Yes, it's like that.

Q. You say that Badza was the commander of the special Yugoslav units and that he was also at the head of the republican MUP. So what was he? Was he working in the Serbian MUP or the MUP of Yugoslavia?

A. At the beginning, I may say he pretended to have been for the special unit in Hajvalija after the Albanians they kicked him out, but in fact, he worked with MUP of Serbia.

Q. Well, until his death he was the deputy of the minister and head of state security. Do you know that?

A. [In Serbian] Yes.

Q. Therefore, what you're claiming is not true. Isn't that so?

A. [In Serbian] Yes. [In Albanian] Yes.

Q. You say that Badza was killed following orders from Jovica Stanisic. What does Jovica Stanisic have to do with the killing of Badza?

A. There is a disagreement -- correction, misunderstanding, because ⁶⁶⁴⁰ Badza has not been killed by order of Stanisic. But may I explain further?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would briefly, though, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Badza was killed directly by the -- by the action organised by the state security, because in recent times, he was not in constant agreement with our policy, and they did not kill him without having been given that order by someone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You're now claiming that you're guessing, whereas on page 6, in this first big paragraph, one, two, three -- in the fifth line we have the following sentence: "He was killed by a special unit of the State Security Service on the orders of Jovica Stanisic as Badza had come out openly against Stanisic and Milosevic."

That's what you say. And I've read out the sentence from beginning to end, from the capital letter to the full stop at the end. Is that what you're claiming?

A. It is true. I have stated that.

Q. He never came out against me. Do you know that? Are you aware of that? He never spoke against me.

A. [In Serbian] Yes, he did. He was publicly against your policy. [In Albanian] He was against your policy.

Q. And he never came out openly against Stanisic either, which is something you're claiming. Is that right or not?

A. He always came out publicly, recently, against him.

Q. Well, you say that in 1995 and 1996, that is two paragraphs lower ⁶⁶⁴¹ down, that his killing was planned, and you heard about that in 1997 from your colleague. Is that what you're claiming?

A. Yes, that's the case.

Q. Well, as a member of the police force, you should have known that he never had any bodyguards. And you say that he was killed in a cafe in front of his bodyguards. So who told you to say that?

A. This was broadcasted on TV, but I was also told about this by my colleagues.

Q. This couldn't have been broadcast over television because this wasn't correct. And so you thought all this up, or somebody told you to say that; isn't that right?

A. I did not make this up and neither did someone tell me to make this up. But this is the truth. The truth is that he was killed in a restaurant and the TV broadcast it. And also, a colleague told me he was killed because he didn't agree with Milosevic's policy.

Q. And your colleague told you that, is that it? And what you saw on television, of course that was broadcast. Of course television broadcast the killing of the chief of police. That's not something that I'm challenging.

Now, you go on to explain on page 6, paragraph 1, that Stanisic was replaced in 1998 but that he was still active. Where was he still active, according to you? "May still be involved" are your words.

A. In my opinion, where he was involved after that, I do not know.

Q. You say from the time that Badza was killed, I had the police and state security under my own control. Who had them under their control ⁶⁶⁴² until that time? In whose hands were they before that?

A. But even at the time, you still had your army and your police.

Q. You said here during your oral testimony: "Milosevic is very well-informed about every detail that goes on in Kosovo and Metohija." That's what you said. Have you ever been to see me?

A. Of course you are well-informed about everything that happened in Kosova.

Q. My question was: Have you ever come to see me?

A. No, because it was impossible to approach you, of course.

Q. And were you ever at a meeting at which I was informed?

A. No. When you had the meetings in Gazimestan, near the monument, in Prishtina.

Q. You mean when there were 2 million people present? Is that what you mean? That's where you were?

A. Yes, normally.

Q. You say that the most responsible people for the war that came to be was Misku, Ajazi, Radovic, and Gajic, and the other people that you mention. Is there a mistake in your opinion? Is there any responsibility on the part of the KLA and NATO perhaps except for Misku, Ajazi, and Gajic and all the rest?

A. The main person responsible for the war that was conducted in Kosova is you. They worked, they all worked upon your orders. They implemented or carried out every single order you gave.

Q. All right. You say that the DB monitored and supervised all KLA operations but did not prevent them in their attacks. And a moment ago, ⁶⁶⁴³ you spoke of a series of conflicts and clashes between the police and the KLA.

Now, answer me this: What out of all these things can be true? What is the truth?

A. The truth is as follows: Everything is true to have been under the control of the state security. The actions undertaken by the police were -- I mean were brief, while in order to undertake actions for the elimination of the KLA, you yourselves did not allow that to happen in time. The reasons being that you yourselves had planned, after having lost the war in places where you know you have fought, you had planned such a war in Kosova and also the separation of Kosova.

Q. Let's not delve in speculation.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you yourself spoke about the existence of units to combat terrorism and the tasks of the state security to fight terrorism, when you talk about organisation and tasks, you describe their duties, their -- the struggle against terrorism. Now, why do you suppose that they would have to have special authorisation if they would like to arrest a terrorist? Does the police need special authorisation when it establishes that somebody has perpetrated a crime? Does he have to go and ask the head of state whether he can arrest a thief that has robbed a shop or arrest a terrorist that is shooting at someone? You as a member of the service, can you conceive that?

A. This had nothing to do with thieves or anything like that. This ⁶⁶⁴⁴ concerned a regular army that came out of a people. But everything that was done went through you.

Q. I took this as an example. Why would an organisational unit to -- an anti-terrorist unit ask for authorisation to go about its regular business?

A. Of course, a special unit is necessary, and at the time there was one in Kosova, but at the time they needed a special authorisation to come to Kosova and operate. This is not a matter of thieves or anything like that.

Q. All right. All right. Let's move on. Tell me this, please: As you said that you were suspected of having taken part in the attack on the police station in Klina, is it true that you did have -- you were involved on this attack on the police station in Klina, you had your fingers in that pie?

A. It is not true that I participated.

Q. (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) were your own;

the number and registration would bring this back to you. Isn't that right, that some of your weapons were there?

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

MR. NICE: And I think some redaction will be required.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I mentioned a surname. But I really did do so spontaneously. It slipped out.

[Private session] ⁶⁶⁴⁵

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In May 1998 you left Kosovo, so you weren't in Kosovo either in 1998, up until the end of the year, or in 1999. That's right, isn't it?

A. It is true. I left by the end of May 1998.

Q. You say that Seselj had his units. Did you ever see Seselj in command of those units, or have any contact with them, or that he was in Kosovo at all when any operations were under way there?

A. I never saw Seselj. I saw his unit in Kosova before 1998, and a ⁶⁶⁴⁶ member -- a colleague of mine was a member of his unit and his party.

Q. So you don't know whether it's true that he had any kind of unit or formation in Kosovo?

A. It is true that he had one. They also broadcast news in Albanian.

Q. Yes, but you heard that from a colleague; right?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now let me go back to page 1, but I'd like to draw your attention that we don't need to go into private session because I won't be disclosing the witness's identity in any way. It's just a fact that he presents, a vital fact.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 1 of page 1, you wrote the following: "After 1991, we were no longer in charge of the detection of political crime because it was decided that anyone or any group had the right to form political parties."

Therefore, after 1991, or from 1991, the state security did not engage, even in Kosovo, in any kind of political crime, did not deal with political crime at all, and political parties could freely be formed; isn't that right?

A. It is true. However, as soon as the war started in Kosova, such a thing was violated, and there was no freedom of speech.

Q. As far as you're concerned, you weren't even there when the war broke out. And in response to a question from Mr. Nice as to whether the sector had anything to do with political crimes, you said here orally, "Only in matters concerning terrorism"; isn't that right? Is that correct? ⁶⁶⁴⁷

A. [In Serbian] Correct.

Q. Now, explain this to me, please. If that is correct, how, then, are you able to claim that the sector - it doesn't matter which one. Let's not mention it now - the sector in Kosovo carried out all the concrete tasks, such as operations, which included killings, arrests, staged scenes, and so on? Let's leave behind arrests for the moment. Every police force engages in arrests. But organises killings, let's focus on that. Now, as you were the head of a group of several tens of people in that particular sector, answer me this: How many people did you kill following on from your duty to organise killings?

A. I have not killed anyone. But even my colleagues have not killed anyone. Others have killed. These people, meaning my colleagues, only made verifications and things like that. I myself would only go to the field, do field work.

Q. All right. You described a sector -- you described a sector with competencies of this kind, and now you say you never did any of that yourself. You said that since 1991 you weren't in charge of detecting political crimes, but you assert and claim that they dealt in killings. Now answer me this question, please: If, for political reasons and with a political background, the State Security Service, according to your claims, delved in killings, how come then that not a single Albanian politician or public individual, over all these years, was not killed? If this sector existed and a whole service was organised, how come not a single Albanian personage or Albanian politician or public figure, including the heads of separatist parties, extremist parties, and all the ⁶⁶⁴⁸ rest of it, that none of them were killed? How is that possible, then?

A. This sector, as I said earlier -- I will repeat it. I will tell you a concrete case, an actual example. This sector participated in the real, in the actual discovery of facts about things that happened. However, the actual example dates back to 1997, if I'm not wrong, January of 1997, 31st of January, when Pajaziti, Edmond Hoxha, and a third friend were killed. In this killing, the people participating were some normal employees; however, there were also some members of the special units of the public police.

Q. All right. All right. Well, I think the answer is sufficient to that question of mine: How come no public figure was killed in those ten years when a sector for killing existed.

Now answer me this: You have supplied us with a schematic, a diagram, of Kosovo State Security System. This is what I'm holding up in my hands. Have a look. This is the diagram that was distributed, with the names of the sectors, the advisors, and so on. Now, all these people, were they all from Kosovo?

A. Mainly, yes, except for two persons.

Q. Which two people were not from Kosovo?

A. Mira Radovic and David Gajic.

Q. All right. So all the others were from Kosovo except for Radovic and Gajic. Now tell me this: How many people in the top echelons were Albanians, were ethnic Albanians?

A. In the high hierarchy, there is only one person in Prishtina and one in Peje. ⁶⁶⁴⁹

Q. And how many in the State Security Service, in the portion working in Kosovo and Metohija, how many members were Albanians?

A. There was approximately 30 of them all over Kosovo.

Q. All right. As you spoke about the killings, you mentioned Hamiti, Osman Musa, Kiliberda, Ukhajdaraj, Kelmendi - I don't know if I have taken note of all names from your statement - as people who organised and planned different assassinations. Were you present during the planning of an assassination of this kind or the carrying out of an assassination attempt?

A. Maybe you misread it when you mentioned killings. I was talking about the people who worked in the field, who found out facts from the field, and prepared documents with regard to this. I don't know about who prepared the actions.

Q. All right. Very well. I'm pleased that we cleared this up. I suppose that you, as an inspector and a group leader, were aware of the rules of operation of the state security; is that right?

A. Obviously.

Q. And did you know that, in accordance with those rules, nobody was able to order somebody to commit a criminal offence, let alone a murder?

A. It is a different thing to act according to the law, and it's a totally different thing to act outside of the law.

Q. I'm asking you about the rules and regulations, because you, as a member of the service, had to sign that you were informed about these rules. So do you know that the commitment of a crime cannot be justified by an order of any superior and does not relieve anybody of the crime, ⁶⁶⁵⁰ especially in cases of murder? Do you know of these provisions?

A. That is correct. But then why didn't you give an order to have people who have committed these things arrested?

Q. Well, this is what the rules provide. Do you know that also the issuance of such orders to commit a crime is a criminal offence, and anybody who is informed of this has a duty to report? And you told us of a number of cases. You know that a dredger was used, and then the person was beaten and then killed, and then his body was bullet-ridden, this person called Mazreku. Did you report this incident to anyone?

A. These facts were reported to the relevant places. And I am more than certain that this information was brought to you, and still you did not undertake any action. But the law is something else, and working and acting according to the law is something else.

Q. All right. Now, since you mentioned Jovica Stanisic, did you at least go and report this incident to him, that Mazreku was killed by your colleagues?

A. As far as Stanisic is concerned, I was too small to be able to approach him. However, there were other persons, two or three, as I mentioned earlier. I'm sure that they could do that. And I'm sure also that he was well aware of the facts, because he didn't do anything without -- I mean, nothing would happen without him knowing.

Q. Well, how could he know about this if you or somebody else who comes across an irregularity does not inform him about it?

A. I have not been the main person involved in the security. They have been the most important persons, and I am convinced that they have ⁶⁶⁵¹ transmitted these things.

Q. Based on what are you convinced?

A. Based on the fact that for every action done, before and after the action, being both positive or negative, there has been information about it, because either on Tuesday or on Thursday, Misku has reported to Stanisic.

Q. And how do you know about this? Was Stanisic the only one who was in Belgrade? So did everybody communicate simply to him from all parts of the country, or was there a larger structure in place there?

A. I know that everything has come into his hands, and he has been the most important person to get the information.

Q. And can you picture yourself, an individual who receives all detailed information on his desk from all over the country, can you imagine what huge task would lie in front of that person? You are a professional. You should know how these services operate. Or at least you claim to be so. I don't know for a fact that you are a professional.

A. Look here. The truth is that in Kosova there has been another situation, a very fragile situation, and for everything there has been information and this person has been informed, whereas we knew that he was your closest collaborator.

Q. On page 8, you mention some people, and then you say Zymberi, an inspector, born in Decani, lives in Pristina; Deme Muja, independent inspector, a captain, assistant of the head of security in Pec. Are all of these people Albanians?

A. Yes. ⁶⁶⁵²

Q. And how can you say, then, that DB persecuted Albanians, when Albanians in fact worked in DB?

JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of argument. Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you've got three or four minutes more.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, let me take a look here.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said here some ugly things against the judge, Danica Marinkovic. In your statement, you said that you saw somebody being beaten when you entered the office of Danica Marinkovic, and here, during your testimony, you stated that Danica Marinkovic said to somebody who was interrogated the following. She said to him: "You better write this -- you better sign this rather than being beaten."

And you said that this person was named Avdiu. And this is quite a significant change, and how is it that you didn't mention this in your statement but came up with this here?

A. There was Avni Klinaku in the presence of the investigating judge, and he has addressed her [as interpreted] with the words: It's better for him to sign rather than be beaten.

Q. My question was: Why didn't you mention such a significant thing in your statement? Because this is what you claimed here, that she, as an investigative judge, said to a suspect, "You'd better confess rather than being beaten." So how can you say something like that? Why isn't this mentioned in your statement?

A. I think it has been mentioned because near him there were many ⁶⁶⁵³ other Albanians who had been beaten in her presence and in the presence of the other judges.

Q. This is something that can be easily verified. All right. Since you're claiming to be an employee of the state security, do you know that the detainees are not taken to the investigative judge either by the state security or any similar service but, rather, by the prison guards? Are you aware of this in view of the regulations in our country?

A. It is a fact, but they have not been working according to the regulations. The guard went -- he was sent inside with the guard at the judge's office, and once he was placed inside the judge's office, the guard left.

Q. In one other instance, on page 11, you said, when describing these murders, and you have given us two different versions, you said that the murders were committed without witnesses. So if this is really the case, how come that you are here testifying?

A. I do not understand the question without the presence of --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's not a clear question. Now, you've got one more question. It's past the time already.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. In that case, here's one:

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 14, you say that one of your colleagues, Ilic, told you: "Only America and NATO can help you. Otherwise, those who do not want to live with us have no business living in Kosovo." And then you go on to say that this conversation was conducted in 1996, full stop, the end of ⁶⁶⁵⁴ that sentence.

Now, I'm asking you, and I'm also asking the public, in 1996, after the conclusion of the Dayton Accords, did anybody have a mere idea or was anybody concerned about a war breaking out or any kind of conflict after the conclusion of Dayton Accords in 1996?

You -- you say that this was mentioned in 1996 about NATO. Was there anybody in Belgrade or Yugoslavia mentioning NATO in 1996 after the Dayton Agreement, NATO as some kind of a threat? Why did you come up with this?

A. Look, as concerns NATO, I have never mentioned NATO. However, I may say with full responsibility that such a thing after Dayton, it was known that a war would break out in Kosova. And even my colleagues would even tell me every time -- may I, please, just once, if it's possible to disconnect the public session and to go into private session?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

(redacted)

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Now, have you any questions, Mr. Tapuskovic? I must ⁶⁶⁵⁵ ask you to make them very brief, because we need to start another witness today.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of the time, you are mentioning the next witness, and I was given information that we will adjourn at quarter to two today. That is in 20 minutes.

JUDGE MAY: No. I said 2.00, which was the time we set on Friday. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm mentioning this, because I'm going to have somebody visit me and I will have only two hours.

JUDGE MAY: We know. Let's just get on with this anyway.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will try to be brief.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness K6, based on your testimony, I understood that you started working in that service in 1982, 1981 or 1982. I'm interested in the following: You are familiar with the situation from that time all the way up until 1997, and in that time period from 1981 until 1997, was there a mass exodus of Serbs from the province? Did they leave the province in mass numbers due to pressure that was exerted?

A. Serbs left Kosova as well as Albanians did, however, there were Serbs who left, but they did so because of the material circumstances and their material conditions. ⁶⁶⁵⁶

Q. And do you remember the Martinovic case which took place a few years after you started working? Do you know about this case? And do you know that after this case, people started fleeing Kosovo in mass numbers? Do you know what happened to Martinovic?

A. Yes, I know.

Q. Can you tell the Court what happened to that man and what the consequences were in Kosovo?

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this is a very famous incident. I rather doubt if it's got much bearing--

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: -- tasteful. It's the subject of considerable controversy. It can be read about in countless books.

JUDGE MAY: We don't know anything yet about it. We won't trouble this witness with it. We can hear about it elsewhere.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not even suggest the answer because this is such a well-known case. All I'm asking is whether this case was so significant that it provoked people into leaving Kosovo in large numbers after that.

JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer. So let's move on.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Q. My next question is this: Since the KLA was established for the first time in 1975, as this witness said, and it ceased to exist in 1982, what I want to know: Whether between 1975 and 1982 the members of the KLA pressured Serbs into leaving Kosovo.

A. It's not true. There was no pressure on Serbs by then at the ⁶⁶⁵⁷ time.

Q. And when did this take place?

A. They didn't exercise any kind of pressure on the Serbs. The Serbs only left at the time due to their material circumstances.

JUDGE MAY: I think we must ask you, Mr. Tapuskovic, to just ask a question or two more rather than these broad questions. Mr. Nice, have you got another witness here?

MR. NICE: I have another witness here, and I have half a dozen questions in re-examination.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. So we could make a start, finish about ten to.

MR. NICE: Certainly.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In that case, Your Honours, the first thing I would like to do is take a look at the statement of this witness, page 23, paragraph 2. I would like to clear one matter.

Q. You said here: "At the end of 1997 the KLA was led by Adem Jashari, and then the free territory of Drenica was proclaimed." I would like to know the following: How large a percentage of Kosovo territory did this free territory of Drenica at that time cover?

A. Drenica, I must say, was a very low percentage. Maybe 2 per cent. Not even 2 per cent, actually. So that's where the army of the Albanian people was also founded.

Q. Thank you. I would be interested in just one more matter. Everything that you mentioned regarding the investigative judge, Danica Marinkovic, and the judiciary in Yugoslavia, you said that you had information and you knew that Danica Marinkovic was bribed. Is that ⁶⁶⁵⁸ right?

A. I never mentioned bribes or bribery.

Q. But you mentioned that some people from the service took money to her. Didn't you say that?

A. As far as I am aware of what I've stated, I've never mentioned bribery. Maybe you did something wrong at some point.

Q. Well, perhaps I misunderstood something. I think this was said today, but I don't want to keep you any longer. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, I certainly have a recollection of something along the lines of what Tapuskovic put. It's not in the statement. It may a translation error.

JUDGE MAY: It was "bringing money to her," I think was the expression.

MR. NICE: Or to the judges, I'm not sure. Your Honour, in light of the cross-examination on the statement which is, of course, being adopted by the witness, may the statement become exhibited?

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. K6, when you made this statement in May 6 of 1999, of course the conflict was still going on. In general, you've told us a little bit about your sources of information, but as to what the KLA were doing, was some of that information information you obtained directly and some of it ⁶⁶⁵⁹ information that was given to you by people of one kind or another?

A. Yes, normally. Yes.

Q. And your statement generally identifies whether it was firsthand or secondhand information that you were acting on?

A. Yes.

Q. You've been asked questions by the accused, a great deal about the killings of the KLA. And, if we --

MR. NICE: And Your Honours, I just take you in the English version to a few topics.

Q. On page 4 in your statement, you also deal with the assassination of Betush Beka. Page 4, penultimate paragraph.

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. You set out there that the reason for his being killed was disagreements he had with the MUP and they blaming the KLA for incidents to show that they were on -- the KLA was on the scene again.

A. That is correct.

Q. The following paragraph in relation to Mazreku, which we've been dealing with in public session, but just to deal in both types really, did you say there, the penultimate line on the page, that the killing was to blacken the representation of the KLA?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 6, Badza, you've dealt with that. The point that hasn't been brought up perhaps to such a degree is that -- did you set out that you knew of the killing ahead of its being committed? Is that the point that you were seeking to make? ⁶⁶⁶⁰

A. Yes.

Q. If we move on to page 8. At the top of the page -- I needn't trouble you, but at the foot of the page you said this, that the people there, dealing with various staff members, were responsible for the murder of hundreds of people. And you're dealing with the people in the DB. You went on to say that these operations were planned in advance because Serbia, seeing it had lost wars in Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia, decided to take revenge, and that you'd heard as long ago as 1995 and 1996. Is that true or false? And what do you say about the figure of hundreds?

A. It is true.

Q. And these were killings carried out by whom?

A. By MUP.

Q. Thank you. The last two page references, page -- at page 9. January 1997. You deal with the murder of three named people, including Edmond Hoxha. You identify the participants. And the accused has drawn to your attention something, I think, about Albanian names, but was there also included somebody from the Pristina police command and the Red Berets?

A. In that action, the Red Berets were not involved. There were some members of the special unit of the public security of Prishtina.

Q. Finally in relation to the statement, page 14 -- I beg your pardon. There's two more references. Page 14, first. The question you've just been asked about the man Ilic and the reference to NATO, as long ago as 1996, the passage that was read out to you by the accused just ⁶⁶⁶¹ before the line "Judiciary" is this: These people -- or: "They people were very anti-Albanian," this is speaking about the conversation about NATO and so on. "This conversation happened in 1966 [sic]. There was always more talk among these people about war than about peace." Now, that relates to the man Ilic who we identify. Was it true that they were talking about war more than about peace at that stage in 1996?

A. More than true. And -- I apologise. Every Serb was armed to the teeth by the police at the time.

Q. And then finally at page 25, the passage we looked at much earlier, when the accused was asking you questions, but he didn't draw to your attention, I think, this in the middle of the page when dealing with the actions of the KLA. You went on to say: "Serb forces were capable," I hope the Court can find this, "of staging scenes and plan them with the aim of achieving a specific political purpose. As stated above, some state security operations were conducted where people were killed, then attributing blame to the KLA. It would then be -- appear that any action by the MUP was on the basis of protecting people." Was that true?

A. True.

MR. NICE: 1996, not 1966, I'm reminded by Mr. Shin, and am grateful to him for it. Your Honour, that's all I ask.

JUDGE MAY: Witness K6, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. We'll get an exhibit number for the statement. ⁶⁶⁶²

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 224, to be kept under seal.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. NICE: True. Your Honour, the -- Your Honour, the next witness is Sabri Popaj. He is a 92 bis witness, so he will take us conveniently into part of tomorrow, when we're followed by a much more substantial witness, providing the -- as to when the arrival takes place, Mr. Walker.

JUDGE MAY: We will do the introduction. We won't start on the cross-examination this afternoon.

Let me, while this is being dealt with, cover Witness K13, which we have considered. This is a witness who is a child. The Prosecution have applied for the statement of the witness to be admitted under Rule 92 bis. The statement is cumulative since it deals with matters which are dealt with by other witnesses. It comes within the criteria of the Rule and is, therefore, admissible. The accused has indicated quite properly that he does not wish to cross-examine this witness. Accordingly, there will be no cross-examination. There's no requirement for cross-examination in those circumstances, and the statement will be admitted under Rule 92 bis.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm grateful. It will be necessary for us to perfect the 92 bis procedures in North America so the statement may not be available precisely at its time within the schedule, but it will be done.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Before the 26th of July, please. ⁶⁶⁶³

MR. NICE: May we have the next witness, please? He's coming. Does the Chamber already have the summaries of this witness?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we do.

MR. NICE: I'm going to ask for a familiar aerial photograph to be placed on the overhead projector. And while we're waiting for the usher to bring the witness back, those who have been following the recent evidence of Bela Crkva and Celine, this witness, in a sense, links it all up again in a way that makes sense. The Chamber will remember the comparative geographical positions.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: SABRI POPAJ

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat. Examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. Your full name, please.

A. Sabri Popaj.

Q. And Mr. Popaj, did you make a statement to an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor here; and did you more recently, on the 5th of June of this year, go through that statement with an officer of the Tribunal, the statement itself being made on the 12th, 13th, and 14th of June of 1999; and did you sign it as being a correct statement?

A. Yes, it's correct. I have given that statement and I have stated ⁶⁶⁶⁴ so.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, may the package be exhibited? While doing so, can I draw to the Chamber's attention: There's an area of uncertainty. This statement has attached to it some exhibits, hand-drawn maps and other maps, which, in the interests of brevity, I'm not going to refer to myself in the summary. I'm going to use another technique. Nevertheless, it may be convenient that -- the registry needs to know, it may be convenient for exhibited exhibits to be part of the Court exhibit, even if they're not referred to. But we'd like a ruling on it, if that would be possible.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 225.

MR. NICE: May the overhead photograph from the Bela Crkva binder - it's K0138874 - go on the overhead projector, please. Thank you. And if we can focus a little bit on the junction of the railway line and the stream bed. That's probably far enough. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot get a proper sight. Can you make it come closer, please? Now, yes, now I can see properly.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much. Your Honour, the summary of this witness's evidence - and I shan't read all of it - is as follows:

Mr. Popaj, born on the 5th of August of 1959, in Bela Crkva, is a truck driver and a man who did his national service between 1978 and 1979.

One week before the 25th of March of 1999, some five days before the NATO bombing, some 40 Serb police and soldiers arrived in his village ⁶⁶⁶⁵ with trucks and armoured vehicles, and they dug bunkers in a hill overlooking the village. Indeed, they dispossessed somebody called Nahit Fetoshi and some 38 members of his family, who left their house and moved in with the witness.

Now, the witness's house is, I think, shown towards the right-hand part of the aerial photograph, close to the riverbed, and I think it's to the left of the riverbed. So it's not the houses at the far right. It's the -- it doesn't much matter, I think. It's the houses immediately to the left of the first bit of the riverbed running up from the photograph. The police and the army remained until the 24th of March, 1999, when there was a lot of movement between the neighbouring village of Zrze and Orahovac. At 2.00 a.m. on the 25th, the witness heard the sound of tanks approaching from the Prizren and Gjakove directions, five such tanks entering the village but then leaving a short time later, taking up positions on the hill overlooking Celine, which the Chamber will recall is to the left of this photograph, although that is in fact moving east. At about 4.00 a.m., automatic weapons were shot towards the village, so that the villagers all left their homes, including the 85 people now living or staying in the accused's house --

JUDGE MAY: The witness's. Witness's.

MR. NICE: Witness's - I beg your pardon - house. My apologies. He took them to the village school and returned to feed his livestock, and could see Serb forces entering the outskirts of the village and burning houses, using petrol and flame-throwers. He then heard the sound of children coming from the direction of ⁶⁶⁶⁶ the Belaja stream - which is the stream we've been looking at with previous witness - some 300 metres away, and he approached the noise, to find Clirim Zhuniqi, his wife and four children, and some other eight members of a family called Spahiu from the village of Opterusha, which, if the Chamber wants to find it, can be found a little to the north and east of these events on the atlas.

The witness helped these families to cross the stream, walked with them towards Rogovo - that's up on the aerial photograph - for some 600 metres, where they wanted a rest, so he left them to return to his house. There was shooting around him, and he had to crawl to reach an electricity pylon, I think no longer shown on this photograph, which was taken well after these events, by which time the pylon had been removed. The witness saw 12 policemen on his side of the stream and many more approaching from the opposite direction, from Rogovo, all wearing white, tight-fitting plastic gloves. Those police approached the family with children that he had left, yelled abuse at them and then opened fire on them, leaving them, did the police, as they walked along the stream. After a short time, the police on the other side found Halim Fetoshi hiding, a man, I think, aged about 70. They shot him almost without stopping in their stride.

The police then reached the railway bridge that we've heard of, and the witness had with him binoculars. His cattle are normally kept, I think, on distant or sometimes distant territory and hills, and he had binoculars with him. And six or seven of the police, he could see, appeared to be on the railway bridge, pointing their guns down into the ⁶⁶⁶⁷ stream. A crowd of about 40 to 50 men approached the bridge from the other side, maybe men from underneath the stream, climbed onto the bank, onto the opposite side, and he saw policemen searching the men, taking their money, watches, jewellery, and documents, piling up some of their clothes, which were then burnt. Police on both sides of the stream and from the top of the bridge opened fire on the group, and the witness had the distressing experience of seeing his brother, Nesim, shot first, then his son, Shendet, and then the rest of the group. There was an initial prolonged burst of fire, and then later, when men were seen to be moving, there was a further burst or bursts of fire.

The police moved off along a small channel. Now, you can see it on the original in the photograph. It doesn't show up very clearly here. When the Chamber gets the original photograph, you'll see the railway line running left to right, transecting the riverbed. Then on the left-hand side and a rather narrow angle away from the railway line, there's another small line of trees. Perhaps you can just see it there. That's a riverbed. Not a riverbed. It's a channel of some kind which leads in the direction of Celine.

The witness later heard further gunfire apparently from those police, and indeed later found six men, six bodies, in that vicinity. He saw, meanwhile, his parents and his wife about 120 metres away from the railway bridge, and he was able to join them, to be told again that both of his sons and both of his brothers were among the men executed. They travelled to Zrze, and a named group left and collected the wounded survivors, some of whom, or one certainly of whom, later died. He learnt ⁶⁶⁶⁸ of the 2-year-old boy who had survived the massacre of the two families that he had witnessed and of whom we've heard from an earlier witness. He returned to his own house, finding that that and the house of his parents had been destroyed by a fire.

On the 27th of March he was involved in the burial of those killed in the stream massacre, 35 named, personally burying his two sons and two brothers.

Told by Sari Zhuniqi of Bela Crkva that there were people hiding nearby at the time of the massacre, and he saw the bodies of six men killed in the channel. I've already perhaps dealt with that. And he was later involved in the burial of those people.

He went to Celine and on a mountain found the body of Agim - his last name is unknown - a man with four bullet holes in him. He went to the house of Nazim Rexhepi in Celine, where they found five named bodies in a basement, appeared to have been shot in the back. They went to the burnt house of Njazi, same surname, and in an unburnt garage they found 13 badly burnt bodies, recognising two of them and seeing bullet holes in them.

He returned with Nazim to the mountain above Celine, joining a group of about 22 men, 20 of them from Celine, and then they started to bury the dead of Celine, and we heard about that from the last crime-base witness, Mr. Jemini.

They later went to the house of Hamza - his last name is not known - to find seven dead men that had been shot, and then 28 bodies of men, women, and children near the house of Myftar Zeqiri. They realised ⁶⁶⁶⁹ at that site that one man, a man aged about 57, was still alive, having survived for some seven days, being at the time quite incapable of speaking of the events. But when he was able to speak, three or four days later, he explained that Serb police had done all the shootings. Thereafter he spent 13 days searching Celine, finding eventually and dealing with the burial of some 84 bodies.

One night at the beginning of April, he heard the sound of a low-flying jet passing overhead, and seconds later heard four large explosions. When they went to the village of Nogavac to investigate, they saw one house completely destroyed and four others badly damaged, later saw the bodies of three children pulled from that house, learning that there was in fact a total of eight children and three women who had been found there. His view was that it was a Serb plane. NATO planes only ever flew much higher.

One day he saw a green-coloured armoured vehicle travelling with an excavator and a black armoured Land Rover stop on the outskirts of Celine near the main Prizren-Gjakove road. He could clearly see them. The excavator dug a hole first on one side of the road. Seven people in civilian clothes unloaded about eight bodies from the truck, the same exercise then being repeated on the opposite side of the road with another hole, the policemen guarding those dealing with the operation, carrying automatic rifles.

Those civilians and some of the police returned to the truck and remained there. The Land Rover and the armoured vehicle then drove to the mosque in the centre of Celine, a number of the occupants entering the ⁶⁶⁷⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁶⁶⁷¹ mosque staying there for an hour, leaving it, following which the mosque was blown up. All the vehicles then left for Prizren. Three days later, mosques in Bela Crkva and Rogovo were also blown up. The witness at one stage found the body of a young girl, about 21 years old, in the ground floor of Nuri Kelmendi's house in Bela Crkva, she naked from the waist up, with knife wounds to her breasts, appearing to have been shot in the back of the head, although there was no blood near to the body, suggesting perhaps that she had been killed elsewhere. He, of course, buried her.

Three days later, he found the body of an elderly lady, belonging to Nait Fetoshi, fully dressed, with a bullet hole in her hip. In fact, I think she was age 90 years, not 70 years, initially thought. His family left Kosovo on the 2nd of April, but he stayed until the 13th of May, when he joined people that went from the village of Banja in the Pec, Peje, area that had stopped near Celine to rest. At the border they were questioned by border police, and he told them that they were from Pec. When they handed over their documents, as demanded, those documents were thrown on a nearby fire. Your Honour, that is a summary of this witness's statement, and I see the time.

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now until, I think, half past 9.00 it is tomorrow. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. Half past 9.00 tomorrow. Mr. Popaj, you'll conclude your evidence tomorrow. Could you be back at half past 9.00 to do so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. ⁶⁶⁷²

JUDGE MAY: Would you remember, during this adjournment and any others there may be in your evidence, not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, your evidence, and that includes the Prosecution. Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of June, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.