8078
Tuesday, 16 July 2002
[Open session]
[The accused entered court]
[The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
WITNESS: MERITA DEDAJ [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
Q. [Interpretation] Well, let's continue where we left off yesterday. Do you know who these people were who were allegedly killed in the village of Deve Babaj?
A. Yes. Yes, I do.
Q. Well, who were they?
A. They were Albanians who lived in Deve.
Q. Well, do you know their names, perhaps, or something more about them, who they were, except for saying that they were Albanians?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And do you know anybody, anybody whatsoever, who was an eyewitness to these alleged killings that you're talking about?
A. Yes. My uncle was there, because he buried them and he saw them with his own eyes.
Q. I understood you to say that your uncle was called by the commander of the unit to go and bury the people. I think that's what you said, isn't it? 8079
A. Yes.
Q. So he wasn't there when they were actually killed, was he? So he wasn't an eyewitness to the killing itself.
JUDGE MAY: We've been over that yesterday.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Now, you claim that the army of Yugoslavia, on the 27th of March, arrived in your village and that a certain officer who, as you claim, had one day before that taken off your uncles for this burial, for the burial of these bodies, and gave you one hour to leave the village. Is that right? And that's what it says on page 2, paragraph 6 of your statement.
A. Yes. They forced us for an hour -- they forced everyone to leave the village within an hour.
Q. And did he explain to you why you were supposed to leave the village?
A. No. They just told us to get out and go to Albania. And when we left the village, they told us we couldn't go to Albania after all but we were to go to Korenica. And when we got to Brekoc, they turned us back to Korenica.
Q. All right. Now, tell me this: Did he tell you, when he told you to leave the village, did he perhaps tell you that combat activities were expected there and that you should get away from there for your own security and safety?
A. No. He just told us we had to get out of the village.
Q. And did they tell you to go to Korenica on that occasion? 8080
A. Yes. He said to go to Korenica. And we spent a whole week on a meadow there, under their orders.
Q. All right. We'll come to that in a little while. So he told you to go to Korenica, not to go to Albania; is that right?
A. At the start, when he told us to get out of our houses within an hour, he said, "Go to Albania." But when we got to Brekoc, he said, "You can't go to Albania. Go back to Korenica." It was Nikola Micunovic who said that.
Q. So that means that he didn't tell you that in the village, to go to Korenica, as you said a moment ago. It was only when you started off towards Albania that he told you to go to Korenica; is that right?
JUDGE MAY: She's just explained what happened. There's no need to repeat it.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Now, explain this to me, please: In the statement - not this one but the other one given to the investigators of the International Crisis Group - it says that masked policemen whose faces were painted in colours and paint, members of paramilitary forces, expelled you and the members of your family from the house and that one of the policemen tried to set fire to a house but the other Serbs didn't allow him to go through with it. Now, explain to me, please, why this statement is different from what you said a moment ago and from your written statement. Otherwise, this is on page 03014968 of the Serbian version given to the International Crisis Group. 8081
JUDGE MAY: Can you follow the question? Have you followed what he said?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I'm not sure. Does he mean when we left Guska?
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, are you referring to when they left Guska?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When they left their own village. We're talking about the same event, the event in the statement --
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness -- let the witness answer.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we left the village, they told us, "Get out within one hour," and that's what we did.
JUDGE MAY: The point that's made is that in a statement which you made to the -- it's said to the International Crisis Group, it says that there were some masked policemen and members of the paramilitary forces who expelled you and the members of your family from the house. Is it right that there were masked policemen and paramilitaries there?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE MAY: And the other point that's made is that one of the policemen tried to set fire to a house but the other Serbs prevented him. Did that happen or not?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember anything about the burning of a house.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 8082
Q. Well, all right, then. Can you explain why the difference between your statement from the one you gave to the International Crisis Group? Why do those two statements differ when they talk about the same event? And both the statements are yours.
A. I don't really remember at the moment. They know better than I might what happened. You know what happened. You know what took place in Guska. You know better than I do.
Q. When you say they knew what happened better, who do you mean by "they"? You say, "They know better than I."
A. No, I mean you. You knew what was going on because you gave the orders.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, I have here with me the statement, or at least the questionnaire that was made with the witness, and in fairness to the witness, I think that Mr. Milosevic needs to put the entire phrase that was said.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Read out the entire phrase so that we can hear it.
MS. ROMANO: It is -- in the statement, it says Serb policemen tried to burn the witness's house but the other Serbs did not allow him because they wanted to use the house as their shelter.
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Dedaj, do you remember anything like that happening now that it's been read out?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. To say again, there was an attempt to burn the house, but there were people there. It 8083 was the same people there.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We've covered that point now, so move on to the next one.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Just one more question in that regard. Now, what is correct? Did they expel you from your house the way in which you stated or the way you told the International Crisis Group? What did you say?
JUDGE MAY: She has explained and we can go no further. So there's no point going back to the point.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, I'm just asking what happened. I assume that I --
JUDGE MAY: You've put it to her and you've heard her answer. Now, there's no point going over it again.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You claim that members of the Yugoslav army escorted -- or, rather, that they escorted you as you were in the vehicles moving towards Korenica; right?
A. Yes. Yes, that's true.
Q. Did they provide security for you then? Is that what they were doing?
A. No, they didn't provide -- come for security. They came to get us and to expel us from our houses and to leave us a whole week on a meadow. From the 29th of March to the 1st -- to the 5th of April, we spent all our time on a field, on a meadow, without any security whatever. 8084
Q. All right, we'll come to that. But on the 26th and 27th of March, was there -- was Djakovica bombed by NATO?
A. I don't remember.
Q. All right. Now tell us which male members of your village left the village and started out for Korenica? Male members of your family.
A. All the village of Guska, the whole village. We all left the village and went off to Korenica. My family too. No one remained behind in Guska at all.
Q. All right. Now, you also say that the members of the army and the police force in Korenica ordered the younger people and the women and children to stay out in the meadow, in the field, whereas the old and the elderly were sent to a house; is that right? That's what it says. And my question for you is: Where was your father, uncles, and the other elderly male members of your family at that time?
A. All of my family was on the meadow. And the house you mean, there were only old people in it and people with illnesses and very old people. They were not able to survive on the field. Whereas all my family and the whole of the village of Guska otherwise was on the field, on the meadow, for all that time.
Q. But already in the next paragraph you claim that the members of the army ordered people to go to different houses in Korenica, to be put up there. That's what it says. Now, which is true? Did they order you to remain in the field or to go to the houses?
JUDGE MAY: Where is the reference to the -- their being ordered to go into the houses? Can you just point that out to us, please. 8085
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the last paragraph of page 2, it says, the last sentence: "They ordered the people to go and be put up in different houses in Korenica. Together with my family, I went -- ordered the people to go and stay in different houses in Korenica. Together with my family, I went to stay at Prend Markaj's house, where I stayed three weeks."
JUDGE MAY: Let's get this straight. The account which the witness gives in the statement is, first of all, that they stayed in Korenica a week. Then there were about a thousand people in the convoy that moved from Korenica. "When we arrived in Meja-Orize, the army stopped the convoy and ordered the people to go and stay in different houses in Korenica." So there's no discrepancy in what she said. She's talking about two different events.
Is it right, Ms. Dedaj, that when you got to Meja-Orize, the army stopped the convoy and ordered the people to go and stay in different houses? Did that happen?
A. Yes. Yes. That happened after we'd spent a whole week on the meadow. Then they ordered us to leave in the direction of Meja, just before you get to Gjakove. And then they returned us once again to Korenica. And at that moment, they said go and take up shelter in different houses. So I went with my family to the house of Prend Markaj and spent the time there from the 27th of April, around the 27th of April.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. But even for this first part, where Mr. May says there is no difference or discrepancy with respect to what you said, that you 8086 remained in the field for a week, take a look at this penultimate paragraph on page 2. "We got into tractors and cars and started out towards Korenica. When we arrived in Korenica, the army and police ordered the younger people, women and children, to stay out in the field and the elderly and sick were sent to houses in the village. I was one of the ones that we had to stay in the meadow. At night we were allowed to go in the house."
So were you in the field, a meadow, for a week or were you outside during the day and went to a house to sleep in at night? Is that right? Because that's what it says here. So which of the two is correct?
JUDGE MAY: They could both be correct. Did you spend the night in a house, Ms. Dedaj?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. During the whole week, in the daytime we spent the time on the field whereas in the evening, we all went into a house, all the village of Guska. Just in the evening, during the night.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. Now, tell me this: In the statement to the International Crisis Group, you claim that during the time you were in Korenica, you spent your time in the houses of Prend and Marko Markaj, whereas in the statement which you gave to these investigators here, you say that you spent the time in the house of Prend Markaj. Now, tell me, who were you staying with in Korenica? Which is it?
A. In the house of Marjan Markaj, we spent the evenings. That was during the week that we spent on the field. All of Guska was there. 8087 During the night, we spent in that house. Whereas a week later, from the 5th of April on, when we returned there, up to the 27th, we spent our time in the house of Prend Markaj. Whereas the house of Marjan Markaj, we were only there in the evening for one week.
Q. And are you related to the Markaj family at all?
A. You mean my family?
Q. Are they relations of yours? That's what I asked you.
A. No.
Q. And did all the members of your family put up at Prend Markaj's house?
JUDGE MAY: Well, really, Mr. Milosevic, this witness deals with important events. These are trivial questions which you are asking. I remind you, too, that your time is limited.
THE ACCUSED: It seems to me, Mr. May, that the main question here is time.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. In your statement on page 3, paragraph 4, you say that from a distance of 20 metres, you heard shots, and that when you looked behind you, you saw men lying down on the ground. Is that right?
A. Yes. Once -- they ordered us to get out of our houses, and the men remained there, whereas the women and children, we went out onto the street, 20 metres away. We heard a volley of firing, shooting. And when we got away, 20 metres away, there was another volley of shooting. And I looked around to find out what had happened with my father and my uncle and all the rest who we had left behind us, the nine men behind us in the 8088 courtyard. They were all on the ground, and I'm sure that they were -- that they'd been murdered. But you would know that better than I do. They left us without parents, without my uncle, without anybody.
Q. All right. However, in the statement you gave to the International Crisis Group, you say that when you turned round, you saw men falling down. You saw the men fall down. Now, which is true; did you see them as they were falling or did you see them when they were actually lying down, when they were on the ground?
A. I saw them lying on the ground, merely stretched out on the ground. We -- they were asking for money. They were beating us and asking for jewellery, and when we turned our heads back, we could see them lying on the ground and had seen what had happened to them. They were not --
Q. All right. You then say that when you turned round, you saw the soldiers who were still shooting but not towards the bodies. That's what you say. "I saw the soldiers who were still shooting but not towards the bodies." So what were the soldiers firing at then?
A. While we were in the yard until we went out, they were always firing in the yard. They were firing into the air always. But let me say once again, because when we went, we went no more than 20 metres away. They fired at them directly, and they were lying on the ground, and we saw them lying on the ground.
Q. And tell me, what position were the soldiers in when you saw them firing?
A. They were standing up and firing straight ahead. 8089 BLANK PAGE 8090
Q. And tell me, where are your relatives buried?
A. We found -- we found only three of them, only three members of the Dedaj family. The others have disappeared. We don't know where they are. That's my father, uncles. And there were 12 members of the Dedaj family missing. We only found three; Mush, Gjok, and one other. And we found them burnt in the house where they were. It was the house of the Berisha family in Korenica.
Q. Were these three in the group that you described a moment ago?
A. No. They were -- they were not in the house where my -- they were staying with a different family in Korenica.
Q. And where is your father buried?
A. I have not found my father. He has vanished. I don't know what happened to him now for three years. We merely left them there on 27th of April and have heard no more of them. They have disappeared.
Q. All right. Now, who were these people who you say were killed 20 metres away from you? I understood you to be speaking about your father and your family. So who were these people, then, the people you claim were killed by the soldiers when you were 20 metres away with your back turned towards them? Did you know these people?
A. These people were my father, my uncle, and my cousin aged 16, and six other members of the family who had been standing with the Markajs, and Pjeter. They were members of my family who we left behind in the yard. But I don't know any more. I merely saw them being shot at and lying on the ground, but we have never found the bodies, and we don't know what happened to them. We haven't found the bodies or anything. They 8091 have just disappeared.
And you yourself know very well, because you did this. There's nothing more I have to explain.
Q. All right. Tell me, did anybody survive this event that you've described?
A. Only one. Only women and children. Only we survived. The men who were -- stayed behind in Korenica, nobody knows what's happened to them. There were 500 people, Meja, Korenica, Guska, all missing.
Q. All right. Tell me, please, how come in the statement that you gave to the International Crisis Group you say that Anton Dedaj, 31 years old, survived this event? Is that true or is that not true?
A. Yes, it's true. He was staying with another family from Korenica, and he had luck and he survived. He was not where I was and my father and uncle were. He was not in that house.
Q. All right. How did you know that he survived when you left Korenica and when you joined the convoy?
A. I knew that when we went out into the convoy, we -- we all formed a convoy, and this one who survived, he was with us. He was the only one.
Q. All right. Did he give a statement to the investigators or to the members of the International Crisis Group? Do you know that?
A. No.
Q. Where is he now?
A. He's living normally in Guska with us. My cousin, Anton Dedaj.
Q. All right. Anton Dedaj. And the statement that you gave you the investigators, you do not mention him at all. Why? 8092
A. Well, I don't know. There is no pen that can describe the events that have been -- that I've been through. I wrote about a lot. I have talked about a lot. But this one survived.
Q. Was there any fighting between the KLA and the members of the army and police?
JUDGE MAY: Where? In what context?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking the witness, Mr. May, in the context of the events that she has been testifying about.
JUDGE MAY: In Korenica at the time, or wherever it was that her father was killed, are you suggesting there was fighting there?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I put the question very clearly to the witness: Was there any fighting between the KLA and the army and the police?
JUDGE MAY: You did not. Throughout the time that she has described; is that what you're asking? You ought to clarify -- you ought to clarify your questions.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When I carry out my cross-examination, can I reach my point in a few questions or do I have to explain it to you in advance? Is that my duty in terms of your job?
JUDGE MAY: Your duty is to ask questions which are clear for the witness to answer. If you do not do that, you will be stopped. It's not fair on the witness, and it's not fair for the Court if you don't clarify what you mean, and you will be asked to do so.
Ms. Dedaj, you've in fact answered the question. You're being 8093 asked if there was fighting.
Now, deal with it in this way: First of all, at the time that this execution which you've described took place, which included your father, was there any fighting with the KLA at the time?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never saw the KLA. There was no KLA of any kind.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. Did somebody shoot at you as you were leaving Korenica?
A. At us women and children while we were walking, do you mean?
Q. Well, you claim that there was shooting all around. That's what it says on page 3, paragraph 5. "There was shooting all round." So I assume that since there was shooting all round, that there was some fighting going on. I am asking you whether somebody shot at you too because there was shooting all around you.
So was there fighting in Korenica? Because you say: "There was shooting all around us."
A. No. There was no fighting between anybody, but there was always shooting, uninterrupted, all along the road until we reached Gjakove. There was always shooting. There were houses burning. The meadows were full, the roads were full of men with bandannas, criminals. It was terrible.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got time for one more question.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Do you know anyone who was a member of the KLA? 8094
A. No, I don't know anybody.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions of this witness?
No. No more questions.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection of an administrative nature, please.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While responding to my questions, the witness said that her mother and aunt, whoever, did not attend when she gave her statements to your investigators, that she was by herself. But on the first page of the statement, it says, where all the names of all persons who attended the interview, it says, "Ana Dedaj, mother of the witness."
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So either your official did not record the truth or the witness did not say the truth. I wish to draw your attention to that, notably --
JUDGE MAY: Yes. You've done that. Ms. Romano, have you any questions?
MS. ROMANO: Not for the witness, Your Honour. I just would like to clarify and to point out for Your Honours that, contrary to what Mr. Milosevic said, that the witness never mentioned Anton Dedaj in her statement, if Your Honours can see at page 4 of the English version, she makes -- she mentions at the second paragraph that: "My uncle Anton Dedaj was released and joined us." 8095
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
MS. ROMANO: No further questions.
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Dedaj, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for inviting me.
[The witness withdrew]
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What Ms. Romano explained just now relates to subsequent events, when they were stopped on the road, whereas my question was who had survived. So these are two completely different things, and they pertain to completely different points in time.
JUDGE MAY: We can read the statements. Can we have the next witness, please.
MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call Ms. Merfidete Selmani. While we're waiting for the witness, I would just like to point out that Ms. Selmani's evidence will be relevant to pages 9 and 10 in the Kosovo Atlas. And this next witness will also be testifying related to the incidents described in paragraph 66i of the indictment.
JUDGE MAY: Let's just have the witness, please.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
WITNESS: MERFIDETE SELMANI
[Witness answered through interpreter]
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 8096
JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat. Examined by Mr. Saxon:
Q. Miss, is your name Merfidete Selmani?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Selmani, were you born on the 3rd of April, 1983?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you born in the village of Dobros in the municipality of Gjakove in Kosova?
A. Yes.
Q. Is the village of Dobros about ten kilometres to the north-west of the city of Gjakove?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 7th of July, 2001, did you give a statement to a member of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and your experiences in Kosovo during 1999?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 14th of March of this year, 2002, in Gjakove, did you provide a short addendum to your statement of 7 July 2001?
A. Yes.
Q. And also on the 14th of March, 2002, in Gjakove, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you previously gave and a copy of the addendum in the Albanian language in the presence of a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal?
A. Yes. 8097
Q. And at that time, were you able to confirm that the copy of the statement and the addendum were true and correct?
A. Yes.
MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm going to ask now that Ms. Selmani's statement provided under Rule 92 bis be distributed to yourselves, to the accused, and to the amici, and provided with an exhibit number, but I'm not going to request right at this moment that it be admitted because there are a few errors I would like to clarify with the witness.
JUDGE MAY: We have in fact got copies.
MR. SAXON: Very well. Perhaps if a copy of the Albanian version, after it's marked, could be placed in front of the witness.
THE REGISTRAR: Document will be marked 265.
MR. SAXON:
Q. Ms. Selmani, last Friday, 12th of July, while speaking with myself and other members of the Office of the Prosecutor, did you become aware that there were a few errors in your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, myself and the Judges are looking at the English version of your statement, and on page 3 of the English version - and it's the same page in the Serbian version - you describe how your family fled your home and joined a convoy on the 14th of April, 1999. And in the third full paragraph on that page, you say in your statement the following: "It was a big convoy. We were in the middle, and we could not see the two ends." And then there is a sentence that says, in English: "Police Pinzgauer, dark blue vehicles, were among the convoy. They would drive every four, 8098 five metres in the middle of the road."
My question for you, Ms. Selmani, is this: Were the police Pinzgauers driving every four or five metres in the middle of the road?
A. No. Pinzgauers couldn't drive every four or five metres, but there were -- there were tractors in the convoy.
Q. And where, if --
A. The Pinzgauers were distributed among every four or five tractors.
Q. All right. So just so that I'm clear, the Pinzgauers were amongst the convoy. Every four or five tractors, there was a Pinzgauer?
A. Yes.
Q. So should that sentence on page 3 actually read: "Police Pinzgauers, dark blue vehicles, were among the convoy. They were driving in the middle of the convoy about every four or five tractors"? Would that be correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Selmani, in the very next paragraph on the same page, the first sentence begins with the following: "I have not heard the police nor the soldiers cursing at the refugees."
On that day when you were in the convoy, were the refugees verbally mistreated by the police and soldiers as the convoy passed them by?
A. I don't know about the others, but I didn't hear. But when I was with my family, there were -- there was cursing and mishandling in the column of refugees, yes.
Q. Were these statements or cursing made by the police or the 8099 soldiers to the refugees? Just yes or no.
A. The army and the police, both of them.
Q. What kinds of things did the police and the soldiers say as you passed them by?
A. They said: "This is not your place. This is Serbia. Your place is in Albania. Here, this is our country, and we're staying here because this is Serbia."
Q. Ms. Selmani, do you understand the Serbian language?
A. No.
Q. Then how did you know what the police and soldiers were saying to the refugees or to you and your family as you passed them by?
A. There were people, older people near me, with me, and they could understand Serbian and they told me what they were saying.
Q. All right. So should that line on page 3, in the fourth paragraph of your statement actually read: "The police and soldiers verbally harassed the refugees"?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Selmani, on the next page of your statement, page 4, in the third full paragraph, you describe how your family stopped for the day on the 14th of April, 1999, in a place called Bistrazin after several tractors were truck by bombs.
In the next paragraph - and this is the same page and the same paragraph in the Serbian version - your statement says: "The next day, between 8.00 and 8.30, I saw four men wearing civilian clothes, with a big video camera." Is that line correct? 8100 BLANK PAGE 8101
A. No.
Q. When did those men with the video camera arrive, Ms. Selmani?
A. They arrived on the same day, on the 14th of April, in the evening.
Q. So should that paragraph --
JUDGE MAY: I think, Mr. Saxon, you must let the witness describe what the statement should say rather than you putting it into words.
MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
Q. On the same page of your statement, in the very last paragraph, the paragraph begins: "At about 3.00 or 3.30 hours, we moved back to the village with a tractor."
When did you and your family return to your village?
A. We returned to the village the next day at 8.00 p.m., around 8.00 in the evening.
Q. All right.
MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with those corrections, I will enter that statement into evidence under Rule 92 bis.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll have the exhibit number that it's got already.
THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 265.
MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, Merfidete Selmani is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim woman who was 16 years old when the events relevant to this indictment occurred. She describes how she and her relatives fled their village of Dobros for the first time in August 1998 when Serb forces entered the village. Although one of Ms. Selmani's brothers, Shpend 8102 Selmani, was a member of the KLA at this time, he quit the KLA one week later. Eventually, Ms. Selmani reached the city of Gjakove, where she stayed with relatives until late October 1998 when she returned to the village of Dobros. Between October 1998 and April 1999, Ms. Selmani noticed tanks and armoured vehicles patrolling the area around Dobros. Ms. Selmani explains how on the 14th of April, 1999, Serbian soldiers entered her village. Other villagers began to flee, and Ms. Selmani and her family joined a long convoy heading towards the direction of the village of Meja and the city of Gjakove. Dark blue police vehicles were interspersed among the convoy. VJ soldiers were deployed along the road. Although Ms. Selmani does not speak Serbian, a person travelling with her understood the Serbian language and told her that the police and soldiers were yelling at the people in the convoy, saying things like, "This is Serbia."
After the convoy had passed the village of Meja, Ms. Selmani heard a loud explosion from the direction of Meja. Eventually, Ms. Selmani learned that bombs dropped from the air had struck a house in Meja. Her convoy continued on and, after it had passed the city of Gjakove, near the bridge at Bistrazin, Ms. Selmani heard a loud explosion and saw smoke coming from the part of the convoy that was in front of her. When Ms. Selmani and her family reached the place of the explosion, she saw dead bodies and realised that tractors had been hit by bombs dropped from the air. Ms. Selmani observed two white planes flying over the area. Serb police arrived and told the people in the convoy that if they wanted to continue towards Albania, the police would not protect them. 8103 Ms. Selmani and her family decided to spend the night in a field close to where the bombs had fell. At one point, Ms. Selmani saw a small child sitting in the road, crying, close to a trailer that was still burning from the explosion of the bombs. Ms. Selmani watched as two men in uniform threw this child onto the burning trailer. That same evening, four men dressed in civilian clothes arrived with a video camera. These men spoke in the Serbian language, and they recorded the scene with the destroyed tractors and the bodies of persons who died in the explosion. The following morning, Ms. Selmani and her family returned to their home in Dobros.
Early in the morning of 27 April 1999, Ms. Selmani saw Serb policemen beating one of her relatives and another neighbour with rifle butts. Ms. Selmani returned to her home and warned the young men there to run away. Ms. Selmani's brother Shpend and a number of her male cousins ran to hide in the woods near Dobros. Ms. Selmani and the rest of her family joined a long convoy of people fleeing Dobros and moving in the direction of Meja and Gjakove.
Serb policemen and soldiers were deployed along the route of the convoy. At one point, shooting was heard from the direction of the woods, and the group of young men ran out of the woods and got on board the Selmani family's tractor. When the convoy reached the village of Madanaj, Ms. Selmani's father gave her his identity card and other papers with telephone numbers. He told Ms. Selmani that he didn't know what would happen to him.
Before arriving in the village of Meja, the Selmani family passed 8104 an Albanian policeman who they knew named Fazli Myrtaj. Mr. Myrtaj was known to be close to the Serb authorities. Mr. Myrtaj told the Selmanis that nothing was happening and that his tractor had broken down. Just before reaching the village of Meja at about noon on the 27th of April, Ms. Selmani saw Serb policemen at a checkpoint at the foot of a hill close to a meadow. An elderly relative, Bajram Selmani, told Ms. Selmani and her family that his son had been ordered to leave the convoy and was detained in the meadow. When Bajram Selmani questioned another Albanian policeman, Muharrem Jakupi, about what was happening to his son, Muharrem Jakupi struck Bajram Selmani with his rifle butt and injured his jaw.
When Ms. Selmani and her family reached the police checkpoint, two policemen ordered a number of men off of her family's tractor and the tractor in front of it. I wouldn't read all the names in the summary, but these men included Ms. Selmani's father, Zenun Selmani, and Ms. Selmani's brother Shpend Selmani.
As the men ran up a hill towards the meadow, Ms. Selmani saw policemen beating them with rifle butts. Once the men reached the field, they were forced to sit in a squatting position. Approximately 80 men were already in the meadow and Ms. Selmani recognised several of them. Ms. Selmani never saw any of these men alive again. After the war, Ms. Selmani saw the body of Sherif Selmani whose body was discovered in Meja.
The Serb forces ordered Ms. Selmani and the remainder of her family to continue. At about 12.30 p.m., the convoy reached the village 8105 of Orize, and there Serb forces ordered certain persons in the convoy to collect money from the other Kosovo Albanians and hand it over to the Serbs.
While in Orize, Ms. Selmani saw two policemen and two other men with masks take a group of men dressed in civilian clothes behind a school. After the group of men disappeared behind the school, Ms. Selmani heard a number of gunshots.
As the convoy proceeded towards Gjakove, Ms. Selmani saw policemen and soldiers deployed along the road. These forces cursed the people in the convoy as they passed by. At one point, the Selmani family tractor nearly hit a police vehicle. When the Selmanis told the policeman in this vehicle that their relatives had been kidnapped in Meja, the policeman told them not to worry, after their identities were checked, the men would be released.
When the remaining Selmanis arrived in Prizren, policemen stopped them. Aircraft, which Ms. Selmani believed belonged to NATO, were flying overhead, and the police ordered the Selmanis to wait half an hour for the rest of the convoy. When the convoy finally reached the border with Albania, Serb policemen took identity documents from the people in the convoy. Ms. Selmani crossed the border into Albania at about 7.00 p.m. on the 27th of April, 1999. When she returned to Dobros in June 1999, Ms. Selmani found her home damaged and looted.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, is this witness a 92 bis witness? 8106
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, according to your ruling, the opposite side, when it's 92 bis, has five minutes, and I had one hour and you cut that down to 45 minutes, yesterday even to 30 minutes. It's now 25 minutes, that is to say, five times longer than your ruling stipulates without any warning from you, and I'm sure you're going to caution me even before my time expires, the time allotted to me.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, that is true. Let me deal with that. First of all, the Prosecution are entitled to make corrections where that's necessary, or otherwise, the Court could be misled. So they're entitled to do that.
I agree that the summary was slightly long. I'm sure the Prosecution will have in mind that they're supposed to do it in five minutes.
Yes. But there's no prejudice to you. Let's go on. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Your brother was a member of the KLA; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. According to what you say, he was deployed in Dobros, that is to say in your own village; right?
A. Yes.
Q. How many members of the KLA were there in Dobros altogether?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, roughly. I assume that your brother wasn't the only one 8107 there.
A. I don't know the number.
Q. And what duties did your brother have within the KLA?
A. The -- my brother didn't carry out any duties to the KLA but merely defended his own family.
Q. He had a uniform in the house and weapons too; right?
A. Yes.
Q. In August 1998, with other members of your family, you were in the cellar of your house when, from your brother Shpend -- by your brother Shpend you were informed that there were Serb forces in the village, as you yourself say. Now, since when was your brother Shpend a member of the KLA?
A. My brother had been a member of the KLA for a week. And I don't know what function he had and what he did. And later he handed in his gun and his uniform and lived a family life.
Q. The KLA had positions in Smoljica; right?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, you mention that in your statement. How come you don't know that now?
A. I don't know where they had their positions, whether in Smolica or some other place.
Q. Well, you state that you knew that the KLA at that time left its positions in Smoljica. How did you get to know about that and how far is Smoljica from your own village?
JUDGE MAY: Let's just find this in the statement. Whereabouts is 8108 it in the statement, Mr. Milosevic?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll look for it, Mr. May. Just a moment.
MR. SAXON: If I can be of assistance, it's on page 2, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: We've in fact got it. What the -- perhaps you can help us with this: What the witness says, and this is in August 1998, what the statement says is that during your fleeing during this period: "I did not see any Serbian forces in the area, but I know that two days before, KLA had abandoned the front line in Smolica." Can you help us about that, as to what happened and what you knew at the time?
A. I didn't know anything. I merely heard that they had left.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And do you know that in the village of Smoljica, in May 1998 -- or, rather, let's go back a bit. You didn't tell me how far Smoljica was from your own village.
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, is it the neighbouring village?
A. They are adjacent villages, but I don't know how far it is.
Q. Well, all right. But do you remember the event in May 1998 when the KLA there waited for a vehicle with a medical team in it, which was following orders from the Republic of Serbia and the health ministry and was going around vaccinating the children from poliomyelitis? Do you know 8109 about that event?
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we don't want a speech now. Do you know anything about this vehicle in May 1998? Any incident involving it?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And do you know about another event - because this is the neighbouring village - on the 23rd of May, 1998, the KLA attacked a column of the Yugoslav army precisely in Smoljica? Do you remember that event?
A. No. I've never heard of this.
Q. So you didn't hear about that. They were shooting from recoilless guns, grenades and so on.
JUDGE MAY: She hasn't. There's no point asking these questions.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And do you know about another event that took place at the end of May, on the 29th of May, 1998, in fact, when in the area of your own village the KLA attacked a column of the army and killed several soldiers, three soldiers, in fact, they killed on that particular day and wounded two others. Do you know about that occurrence?
A. No.
Q. Do you know about any event --
JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of all this? Mr. Milosevic, she has described the killing of people, and her own brother and father have disappeared, in August 1999 and April 1999. Now, how does it help the Tribunal to know about events in May 1998 in this particular context? A year before. Now, the fact that there may have been events a year before 8110 may or may not be relevant to the case as a whole, but this witness knows nothing about it, and it does not assist in any way in dealing with her evidence about what happened to her family when they were expelled. Now, that's the relevant part.
Now, I have no doubt that your idea is to try and divert from the evidence - that appears to be the case - to divert from the witness's evidence and to try and point out the various crimes, as you allege, committed by the KLA. But the fact that they -- and you must understand this; the fact that they may have committed crimes does not justify the crimes which are alleged to have occurred in this indictment. And a great deal of time is being wasted by asking witnesses about these matters, about which usually they know nothing.
Now, move to a time which is closer to the time with which we are dealing.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is my mistake, I assume, Mr. May, if I ask a witness coming from a place where major crimes took place, ask whether she knows anything about those crimes.
JUDGE MAY: The crimes long before. If the witness says that she doesn't, then there is little point going on through a whole series of them. Now, let's move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, how will I know whether she knows anything about it or not, Mr. May, unless I ask her?
JUDGE MAY: You can put these matters, but you can put them very shortly and not waste all the time which is wasted.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. As far as 8111 BLANK PAGE 8112 crimes are concerned, as far as I'm able to gather, the witness here is talking about just one major crime and that was the NATO bombing at the bridge in Bistrazin.
JUDGE MAY: You better put that to her. You say it was a NATO bombing; put that to her.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course that is my intention. That is what I want to do, because that is what she describes and it is a crime that is not challenged or in dispute and many people were killed there. And as you don't want me to ask her anything about the activities of the terrorist organisation which, according to her, her brother was a member --
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll skip over these questions then.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Now, you say that your brother Shpend followed you to Skivijane, went with you, and that after that, he drove himself back to Dobros and that he was wearing civilian clothing and that he had a rifle with him. Now, apart from your brother, as an armed member of the KLA wearing civilian clothing, in your group were there any other KLA members of that kind?
A. I don't know.
Q. And did you see anybody except your brother with weapons of any kind?
A. No, I didn't see anybody. 8113
Q. And did you see anybody wearing a KLA uniform?
A. No, I didn't see anybody.
Q. You go on to say that your brother left the KLA seven days later, that he handed over his weapons and caught up with you in Djakovica and that you stayed there for two months. How do you know that he left the KLA? Did he tell you himself?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you with respect to his leaving the KLA?
A. He knew that when he -- when he came up to the family, I knew that he had -- he had left the KLA and had decided to remain with his family.
Q. Did he tell you who he had given his weapon to and whether he gave it up at all, handed it in?
A. No, he didn't tell me.
Q. All right. Now, you say that the situation in your village was calm and quiet the whole time and that it was even quiet when NATO started bombing Serbia. And then you go on to say that you heard the planes and the flash of the explosions in the area of Cabrata. Do you mean Cabrata in Gjakove? Is that the place you mean?
A. Do you mean Cabra?
Q. Well, you say Cabra, in the area of Sabrat [phoen] or Cabrat. Is it Sabrat in Djakovica? Are you talking about that place?
A. Yes, Cabra is in Gjakove.
Q. And when was it bombed? When was Cabrat bombed? When was Djakovica bombed?
A. I don't know when Gjakove was bombed, but as far as I remember, on 8114 the 25th of March, in the evening, we saw these flashes. And I believe that these flashes came from that direction.
Q. All right. In your statement, you go on to speak about the forming of convoys and the departure from the village on the 14th of April, 1999. And then you go on to say that the convoy headed in the direction of Djakovica, and you talk about the airstrikes at the Bistrazin bridge.
Do you know how many civilians died on that day in the NATO airstrikes at Bistrazin?
JUDGE MAY: That presupposes, which is not the evidence the witness has given, that this was a NATO bombardment. Do you know who was responsible for this bombing or not, Ms. Selmani?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know. We were unable to tell whether it was from -- whether it was NATO or somebody else.
JUDGE MAY: So that is the state of the evidence as far as this witness is concerned, Mr. Milosevic. If you've got some other evidence on the point, you can call it before us, but meanwhile, there's no point going on putting to this witness that it was due to NATO.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that this really is senseless. Now, in your book, "As Seen As Told" --
JUDGE MAY: There's no point arguing about this matter. You've heard what the witness said. If you've got some other evidence on the point, of course you can call it, but I'm not going to allow you to ask questions endlessly about something which witnesses know nothing about. 8115 Now, you can ask some other questions if you want, of course.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm not saying this to the witness, I'm saying it to you, because I consider that this is highly improper, because in your book, it says: "Although NATO recognised -- acknowledged the bombing, it was only several days later that it took responsibility for the bomb in Bistrazin." And that is what it says in your own book.
JUDGE MAY: It may be.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is so --
JUDGE MAY: It may be. But this witness knows nothing about that. And at the moment, what you're supposed to be doing is asking the witness questions, not arguing the whole time and trying to score points. You can do all that. But what -- all the witness can talk about is what she knows herself, and that is her evidence.
Now, we will adjourn now for 20 minutes. Ms. Selmani, during the adjournment, don't speak to anybody about your evidence, please, until it's over, and could you be back in 20 minutes' time.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.52 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Please take a look at these three photographs. Is this the scene that you saw? 8116
JUDGE MAY: You're putting that to the witness, are you?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd like to have it put on the overhead projector as well.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can do that. Yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Please take a look at these three photographs. Are these the scenes that you saw? These are photographs of the NATO bombing of the convoy by Bistrazin.
A. I can see these photographs very well, but I don't remember. But where they were, I don't know.
Q. Please show the other photograph as well.
A. It's the same here; I don't remember.
JUDGE MAY: And the third one.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also here; I don't remember.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. If they could be --
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please return that to me.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Do you know, since you were there and you're from the municipality of Djakovica, do you know that on the next day, the investigating judge established and made public that 69 bodies of persons killed were found, mainly old people and children. Are you aware of that?
A. No. I don't know.
Q. And do you know also that 43 wounded persons were brought to the Djakovica hospital and Ali Tolaj [phoen], an Albanian surgeon, said that 8117 the wounded had succumbed to their wounds as a consequence of the explosion. Are you aware of what?
A. I'm not. I am not aware of what happened, where they carried them and where they took them and what happened to these bodies.
Q. All right. After that event, you went towards Albania; is that right?
A. No.
Q. Where did you go after that event?
A. That night, we slept there in those meadows, and 8.00 the next evening we reached home, we returned back home.
Q. And how long did you stay at home?
A. We stayed at home until the 27th of April.
Q. All right. So on the next day, when you went back to your village, did anybody stop you from doing that; the army, the police, anyone?
A. I didn't understand that. Excuse me, can you repeat the question again?
Q. After this event, you say that you spent the night outdoors, and the next day you decided to go back home. Did you have any problems in terms of returning home?
A. No. There was no problem in going home because, of course, they had decided to eliminate all the men in our house on 27th of April, and that is what happened in the end.
Q. Who decided to liquidate your men?
A. I don't know. You know better than I do. You know who did it. 8118
Q. All right. I didn't see from your statement that your men were liquidated. On the basis of what are you claiming that?
JUDGE MAY: That, in fact, was the question which you put, Mr. Milosevic. So you may be confusing the witness. The word "liquidated" was your word.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, no. That's the word I heard in the interpretation, Mr. May, and I used it. It is not my word, no. It is the word that reached me through the Serbian interpretation. Everybody can hear that, everybody who is listening to the Serbian interpretation.
JUDGE MAY: Let us move on.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You speak about the event of the 27th of April, 1999. That is on page 03031882, and this is the event dated the 27th of April, your brother, Shpend, and Jonuz, Baki, Burim, and Nexhat Selmani, your relatives, and Nijazi and Zenun and a certain Ismet went to hide in the woods. That's what you say here. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And now, please answer the following question: In addition to your brother Shpend, these persons that you enumerated, were they also members of the KLA?
A. They were not members of the KLA. They were in civilian clothes, unarmed. And when I went out, I saw them beating my uncle with rifle butts, and I turned, and out of fear that such a thing could happen to them, I --
Q. I don't understand. Who beat your uncle when you went out? 8119
A. It was my uncle and nephew who were beaten by four policemen, four Serbian policemen. It was not my uncle on my father's side but on my mother's side.
Q. All right. I heard uncle on the father's side in the interpretation, and that's why I used that word when speaking myself. I asked you about the group in which your brother was and that went into the woods on the 27th of April. You claim that all of them were civilians, that all of them were unarmed. Only your brother was a member of the KLA. The rest were not members of the KLA. That's what you say. And now, further on, you say that in the woods there was shooting and that your father went to the woods to find the young men who had fled from your home.
My question is the following: Who was shooting at who in the woods? Was there some fighting going on in the woods between the army and the KLA?
A. These people who went out into the woods were unarmed, and the Serbian police and army fired at them. If they had had weapons, they would have fought, and they wouldn't have come out of the woods alone. But they came out of the woods and joined the convoy with the members of their families.
Q. All right. You say that these young men got out of the woods, they joined the convoy. I understood from what your statement says that they joined you on your tractor and that your father was walking alongside the tractor. How did they change their decision? First they went into the woods to seek shelter there and then they returned to join you. Did 8120 they tell you why they changed their minds?
A. Because they had been chased there by the Serbian army and police, and they were forced to get out of the woods to join the convoy.
Q. Tell me, please, since they were youngish people -- at any rate, they were much younger than your father; right?
A. Yes. It was Nexhat, 15 years old, and he has now disappeared. He vanished at Meja on the 27th of April, and nothing knows -- nobody knows what happened to him.
Q. And tell me, since they were younger and they were on the tractor and you say that your father walked by the tractor, why were they on the tractor and your father, who is older than they are, walked by the tractor? Is there a reason for that?
A. My father was not so old that he couldn't walk. And there were so many people, civilians, in the convoy that a tractor could not hold the entire family and some people had to walk alongside and some travelled on the tractor.
Q. Further on, you say that at the police checkpoint, 18 persons, including your father and your brother Shpend, were kept there, or, rather, they were ordered to disembark from the tractor, and then you mention their names; is that right?
A. That's the truth.
Q. All right. And then you say that the International Red Cross Committee has registered them as missing persons. Do you allow for the possibility that, after having been identified and after having been checked out, they were released and that, after that, they joined the KLA 8121 again?
A. No, that's not possible. We reported them to the Red Cross as missing persons, but we don't know what happened to them, where they are, whether they're alive or dead or where they're being kept.
Q. On page 03031884, in the last paragraph: "I saw that the policemen near a place Tyrbe," or Trbe - I don't know how you pronounce it - "talked to you, said to you that you should not be afraid for them because they would be released once their identity is established." So do you allow for the possibility that later they joined the KLA or perhaps they were killed in the bombing?
JUDGE MAY: She said no in answer to that question, and she can't speculate any further.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You mention the village of Orize and what happened there when you saw 15 men and two policemen. And then you say, I'm quoting you: "I did not see these 15 men being shot at, but I think they were killed." Who were these 15 men? Do you know them?
A. No.
Q. And on the basis of what do you think that they were killed, although you yourself say that no one was shooting at them.
A. I didn't say that they didn't fire at them, because I heard the gunshots. But you couldn't see them. And still today, their relatives are looking for them as missing persons. They don't know what's happened to them. 8122 BLANK PAGE 8123
Q. All right. In connection with what you said, that in Bistrazin the next day, you saw four civilians with a big video camera who were recording scenes there, did they talk to someone as well?
A. No. I heard them speaking Serbian among themselves, but I didn't see them talking to anyone else there, no.
Q. In your statement, you say that when you returned to your house, you realised that it had not been looted; is that right?
A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't understand you. I didn't understand what you were saying.
Q. When you returned to your house in Dobros, after that event by the place called Bistrazin, you released that your house had not been looted; is that right?
A. My house hadn't been burnt, but it had -- but the other houses had suffered. They were on fire and there was smoke rising from them.
Q. All right. I'm asking you whether your house had been looted.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And why did you write down here that your house had not been looted? Is it in the penultimate line, page 4. "When we arrived in Dobros, our house had been damaged but not looted. The livestock --"
JUDGE MAY: It may be there is a misunderstanding about the occasion that she's being asked about.
Do you follow that? It may be that you're being asked about the first time, not when you came back from Albania.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 13th of April -- on the 14th of April we're talking about, aren't we? 8124
JUDGE MAY: What was the position then, yes. How was the house then when you came back?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was looted, and it was broken into.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. Do you know anything about who it was that looted all sorts of Albanian houses in Northern Albania where there are no Serbs?
A. I didn't understand the question. Sorry.
JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about -- you're being asked about Northern Albania. Do you know anything about that, about the looting of houses there? It may be that you don't.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, no.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. Tell me about the meeting with the Albanian. You say that Fazli Myrtaj is his name, 65 years old, a local policeman from Sheremet. You don't remember his brother's name; it doesn't really matter. Did you know him from earlier on, this local policeman? Did you know him?
A. Yes, but not as a policeman. I knew him just as an individual.
Q. And here you mention him as a policeman; is that right?
A. He was probably forced to put on a police uniform by the Serbs, Serb forces, and to work for them. But I don't know exactly what purpose was behind it.
Q. All right. Do you know any other Albanian who was a local policeman there or only him? Was he the only one? 8125
A. I know of this one, but I don't know of any others. I don't remember.
Q. All right. You say on page 5: "I know that Mush Jakupi and his sons were local policemen, Albanians. And also from Hila, Djakovica loyal to the Serbian regime. That's what it says here in your statement. Mush Jakupi and his sons. And you say they were loyal to the Serbian regime. How does that correspond to what you've said just now, that they were forced to wear a uniform?
A. The sons of Mush Jakupi, that's true. They -- I think they were from Osek. I didn't know them very well. But the older people who had met them said at that time when we were being expelled by Serb forces from our homes, they would expel us from our homes or they would send us back, they would do whatever they wanted, and these persons were known as collaborating with -- as having collaborated with Serb forces at the time.
Q. So Albanians who were local policemen, it is your claim that they were the ones who expelled you from your houses and then returned you there; is that right?
A. They didn't come personally to expel us from our houses. It was military and police -- Serb military and police forces who expelled us.
Q. Since you said a short while ago that they expelled you and returned you, they didn't do it personally, they sent the Serb army and the police to do that. Was that their role?
A. I don't know.
Q. All right. Thank you very much.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff? 8126
MR. WLADIMIROFF: No questions, Your Honour. Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
Q. Ms. Selmani, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you were aware that an investigating judge had established that 69 bodies of persons who were killed at the bridge at Bistrazin were found, and your answer was no. To your knowledge, did any Serb authorities investigate what happened to your father, to your brother, to the other Kosovo Albanian men who disappeared at Meja on the 27th of April?
A. They disappeared on the 27th, and we don't know anything about what happened to them. We asked the accused to -- as responsible, about what had happened to them, but we still don't know. We haven't had any information about what happened to them, about where they could be or where they're being held. We've been asking now for years, for a couple of years, to find out what happened to them but we haven't been able to find out anything.
Q. Ms. Selmani, the accused asked you whether you thought it was possible that the men who you last saw in that meadow at Meja had been released and joined the KLA or had been killed in the bombing. My question for you is this: On the 27th of April, 1999, as you passed that meadow near Meja and you saw your relatives being beaten as they ran up towards the meadow, and forced to squat down there, did you see or did you hear any bombs falling?
A. No.
Q. Did you see any KLA soldiers that day?
A. No. 8127
MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have nothing further.
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Selmani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you
[The witness withdrew]
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, before we dealing with the next witness, there is one ruling which I want to give. It concerns the witness Mr. Radojkovic.
Mr. Ryneveld, yesterday, asked us to consider whether that witness could give evidence by way of Rule 92 bis, that is by way of a written statement. I take it he would have conceded the cross-examination. But in any event, we've considered the matter and, given the nature of his evidence, we do not think it appropriate, and he should be called live. If you would pass that on, please.
MS. ROMANO: I will, Your Honour. And the other one -- I think the other witness that was mentioned, Karleusa, he will be taken live.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the next witness is K31, and I think we have an order for closed session.
JUDGE MAY: You have an order for closed session. Unless there are any other matters which should be dealt with in open session, we will go into closed session.
MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
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--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.