⁸¹⁸²

Wednesday, 17 July 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the next witness is Xhevahire Syla, but we still don't have a ruling on the admissibility under the 92 bis. And I also point to the Court that this witness also requested to be entirely 92 bis'd, meaning without cross-examination. She will give evidence about the deportation in Djakovica area and also the destruction of the old historic quarter in Djakovica, and that evidence has already been entered by other witnesses, Hasan Pruthi, Andras Riedlmayer. And also for the Meja deportation, there was the evidence given by Merita Dedaj, the witness.

So before the witness comes in, the Prosecution requests ask direction under --

JUDGE MAY: She has asked that she be not cross-examined, has she?

MS. ROMANO: No, she is part -- this witness is part of a letter that we sent to the Court, asking --

JUDGE MAY: Oh, yes.

MS. ROMANO: -- around seven or eight witnesses to be treated this way.

JUDGE MAY: We've got that. But she's here now.

MS. ROMANO: She's here.

JUDGE MAY: I thought you said the witness requested to be ⁸¹⁸³ entirely 92 bis'd.

MS. ROMANO: Sorry. If I said that, that's my mistake; the Prosecution.

JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution. Just one moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will admit the statement, but the witness must be cross-examined.

MS. ROMANO: That's fine, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: While she's been collected, let me deal with one matter while it's in my mind, which also deals with Rule 92 bis. In fact, she's here.

[The witness entered court]

WITNESS: XHEVAHIRE SYLA

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Yes, Judge Robinson reminds me that a point was made, Ms. Romano, about the time that you take. Could you try and restrict it to five minutes.

MS. ROMANO: Absolutely, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Could you, please. But bearing in mind the interpreters. I'm sorry. If you choose to cut out a bit, we have got your summary here, and of course we've had the chance of reading the ⁸¹⁸⁴ statement.

MS. ROMANO: No. The summary is extensive, but I do not intend to read out the entire -- and I have already managed to cut it down. Examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, can you please state your full name to the Court.

A. Xhevahire Syla.

Q. When were you born?

A. I was born on the 13th of February, 1968.

Q. Witness, do you remember giving two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor, dated the 2nd of May, 1999, and 5 of October, 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. And you also remember attending a meeting on 14th of March, 2002 in Djakovica, where you attended this meeting in the presence of a presiding officer of this Tribunal, and you had the opportunity to confirm that the contents of your statement are correct and true?

A. Yes.

Q. At that time, you also made an addendum to your statement. That's correct?

A. Yes.

Q. After you arrived here, Witness, you had again the opportunity to review your statement, and you made a couple of revisions. In the first statement dated 2nd of May, page 2, paragraph 3 states the following: "Later, some commanders of the VJ explained to the villagers that the houses in our village had been hit by mistake. They said that they had been targeting the positions of the KLA in the village of Smoljica." ⁸¹⁸⁵ The sentence is incorrect; that's what you said. Is it true?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not speak to any VJ commander. That's true?

A. No.

Q. And this information was gleaned from other villagers who had spoken to a member of the KLA; is that correct?

A. Yes.

MS. ROMANO: With these corrections, the Prosecution submits the statements into evidence under the 92 bis Rule.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 270 and 270A for the redacted version.

MS. ROMANO: This witness was born in Gjakove and lives in Nivokaz, a village about 15 kilometres west of the town. That can be found in Kosovo atlas page 9, map reference F-20. The witness will give evidence of deportation, with associated persecutions, from Gjakove town and villages in the municipality during 1998 and 1999. The witness also gives evidence in relation to the Meja massacre. On the evening of the 24th March, 1999, the witness was still staying with friends in the Cabrat area of Gjakove town. Early on the 25th March, following NATO bombing, she witnessed police armed with incendiary equipment setting houses in the area alight as well as the old market area. The police were also looting property. On 6 April 1999, the police and VJ entered the Cabrat area of Gjakove. The Serb forces shot at the house where the witness was staying and the witness and two other families fled. The witness returned to her ⁸¹⁸⁶ own village, but as her own house had been burnt, she stayed at her father's house.

On 14 April 1999, mixed Serb forces entered Nivokaz, nine of whom entered in the house where the witness was staying and gave the family five minutes to leave. The witness left on tractor and trailers with many other families. Some of the people in the convoy where the witness joined were assaulted and others told to go to Albania. As the column reached the MUP building in Gjakove, police and soldiers appeared to be in a hurry to ensure that all of the convoy were on tractor trailers and no one was on foot. The convoy continued but was stopped near Bistrazin bridge by police and military who had formed a roadblock. The Serb forces then distanced themselves from the convoy, and thereafter, the column was hit by a NATO bomb. Shortly afterwards, three low-flying aircraft bearing the Serbian flag passed overhead and bombed the convoy seven times, killing 70 to 80 people. On 17 April 1999, residents from Dobros arrived in the village where the witness was staying, stating police had expelled them. The police then arrived and the witness and her family were ordered to go to Albania. She again joined a column of at least 50 other tractors and trailers.

In Meja, the column was stopped by Serb mixed forces numbering around 200. The witness saw at least 300 men being taken off the tractors and ordered into a meadow. The men were made to kneel down with their hands behind their heads, guarded by armed police. The police then moved the remaining column on, telling the people ⁸¹⁸⁷ to wait in Korenica. 22 of the witness's fellow villagers who were removed from the convoy are still missing, including members of the witness's family.

In Korenica, the people in the convoy were robbed by paramilitaries. Both police and paramilitaries escorted the convoy back towards Gjakove and ordered them to continue unescorted to Prizren and at the border. At the border post, VJ soldiers took ID documents from the witness and others in the convoy. She also saw them removing registration plates from vehicles.

That's all, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] In your statement dated the 2nd of May, amongst your details you mention that you're a refugee. Where did you make this statement?

A. In Albania.

Q. Tell me, at whose suggestion did you make this statement? How did it come about that you gave this statement?

A. People came around to take the statements, and I made a declaration.

Q. Who are these people?

A. There was a lawyer, but I don't remember his name.

Q. A lawyer, an Albanian lawyer; is that right?

A. One was Albanian and one was a foreigner.

Q. And did you give the statement to the best of your recollection or ⁸¹⁸⁸ did somebody make suggestions to you as to what kind of statement you're supposed to give?

A. I told them only what I had seen and experienced myself.

Q. All right. So you explained to them what we heard now, that NATO and our air force together bombed that convoy of yours. First NATO with one bomb and then our air force with many bombs. That's what you explained to them.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't got any interpretation.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Oh. So your answer is yes. So now it's clear. You say in your statement that the situation in the village was peaceful all the way up to the 25th of May. Is that correct? Until the 25th of May, that is.

For all of two months of the war going on, the situation was peaceful in the village nevertheless; is that right?

A. There wasn't much going on during the two months, no.

Q. All right. A short while ago, we heard a correction that has to do with the assertions that your village was hit by mistake during the fighting between the KLA and the army in the village of Smoljica. What's this all about? Who said that to you? Who told you that it had been so?

A. We -- we had to return because we had nowhere else to stay, and we were frightened. And there were a lot of police around the area there, around us.

Q. I am asking you about this explanation that your village was hit ⁸¹⁸⁹ by mistake when there was fighting between the KLA and the army and the police in the area of the village of Smoljica. What do you know about that?

A. I don't know anything about Smolica, no, just about Nivokaz. Our house was hit, and a cousin of my husband was wounded.

Q. All right. But there was fighting there between the KLA and the army and the police. Is that right or is that not right?

A. There was not in Nivokaz. There was no KLA in Nivokaz.

Q. I'm not talking about Nivokaz. I asked you about the fighting in the area between the KLA and the army and the police. Is that right or is that not right?

A. There wasn't. At that time, there wasn't.

Q. All right. How do you then explain what you said in your statement? You say that for a week, people resisted the Serb police and the army of Yugoslavia. And when they ran out of ammunition, they had to flee. Is that what you stated or not? That is to say, when they spent all their ammunition as they were shooting at the army and the police, then they had to run away. That's what it says on page 2 of your statement. Is that right or is that not right?

A. That is -- that happened in July, not in March.

Q. I am not talking about March at all. In your statement, you refer to the 2nd of May, and you say that for a week, people resisted the Serb police and army, and when they ran out of ammunition, they had to escape. So was there fighting there or was there not fighting there?

JUDGE MAY: If you look at the dates -- ⁸¹⁹⁰ Just a moment.

If you look at the dates in the statement, what it says is: "The situation in our village during the last year has been relatively calm until the 25th of May, when at 6.00 a.m., Serbs started shelling our village." And then the witness describes that.

Then in the next paragraph, she says: "We continued to live in the village for two months more. Two months after the shelling, the police and VJ tried to capture the village. The village self-organised defence," et cetera.

So in fact, she appears to be dealing - in fairness to her - with an event which would have taken place in July.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Something that happened after they returned to the village.

JUDGE MAY: We're dealing with 1998.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked whether there had been any fighting, and she says villagers. And now villagers are the KLA. No villagers, no villagers without any arms or anything. They spent all their ammunition and then they escaped. I imagine that's clear.

JUDGE MAY: That is what she says in her statement, that it was the villagers. But if you're challenging it, it should be put to her. What is alleged is that it was not the villagers who were resisting on this occasion but the KLA. Can you answer that, please?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They only fired at us. They didn't fire during that time. There was a bit of firing at the Serbs but not very much. ⁸¹⁹¹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. There was shooting until they used up all their ammunition, from what I can see in your statement, because you say that they escaped when they ran out of ammunition.

A. On the last week, they lived -- in the last week, they came to Nivokaz and stayed there for a time, but we had gone to Gjakove.

Q. All right. Tell me, how many of these people that you mention resisted, as you had put it, the army and the police until they ran out of ammunition? How many of them were there?

A. In the village of Nivokaz how many? I don't know.

Q. All right. But you know that they were there and that they were shooting until they ran out of ammunition. So do you have any idea how many were there?

A. No.

Q. So you only know this: As you say, they resisted them until they ran out of ammunition. You don't know how many there were and you don't know who these people were. Actually, you claim that they are villagers, and if you know nothing about this, how come you know that they were villagers?

JUDGE MAY: That's not a fair question. She said she doesn't know how many there were, that was all.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And for how long did they resist, as you had put it, until they ran out of ammunition? How long did this go on? ⁸¹⁹²

A. One week.

Q. A week? For a week?

JUDGE MAY: That is what she said; a week.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. For a week a group of armed men use up all their ammunition. So in a week, one uses up a lot of ammunition. It must have been a lot of people if they managed to resist the army and police for a week. Give me an approximation; how many were there?

JUDGE MAY: No. You've asked that question. She says she doesn't know.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How far away is Smoljica from your village? Do you know Smoljica well?

A. It's about five kilometres.

Q. And do you know that Smoljica was a centre where weapons were collected from Albania? In large quantities, at that. Weapons, ammunition, et cetera.

A. No. I've never heard that.

Q. You never saw that? And did you hear that in April 1998, the largest quantity of weapons until then was brought in from Albania to Smoljica? Did you hear anything about that? Did people talk about it? It's the neighbouring village, after all.

A. I wasn't interested in that sort of thing. In the end, I was only ⁸¹⁹³ interested in saving myself.

Q. All right. Now I'm talking about 1998. Do you know that 370 people with 15 tractors and five trucks brought weapons from Albania? Three hundred seventy men, 15 tractors, five trucks. This was a major event. I imagine you must have known about it. Do you know anything about it?

A. You must ask somebody else, because I don't know. I wasn't there at the event.

Q. And do you know who Naim Maloku, Besnik, is? Naim Maloku, nicknamed Besnik.

A. I don't know him.

Q. Have you heard of him?

A. I have heard his name, but I don't know what he did.

Q. And did you hear about the fact that he was the commander, the head of that KLA terrorist group that the KLA organised in Smoljica and the surrounding villages, which includes your village? Did you hear about that?

A. I never saw him in our -- I never saw him in our village. I can only tell you what I've seen with my own eyes.

Q. Tell me what you heard about him and his activities. Not what you saw but what you heard; tell us that.

A. I didn't know anything about this business. I really don't know.

Q. All right. Now, there are three statements of yours, and I must admit I wasn't able to link them up. But in your statement of the 5th of September, 2001, and of October, you change your statement and say that ⁸¹⁹⁴ they -- the villagers defended the village in July and not in May when they were attacked. What is the truth, the correct one?

A. July.

Q. Well, tell me, what led you to change your statement? Who --

JUDGE MAY: I've got the statement and I may be wrong about this, but I've got the statement 2nd of May 1999, which I've just read out to you, which refers to the 25th of May and the shelling, and then two months later, the resistance to the Serb forces, which would make it July. So unless I'm wrong about that, there doesn't seem to be any change.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think the difference is quite obvious, but I don't want to waste time, because that's what it says in her statements.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So your statement saying it was in July is correct; is that it? Is that what you claim? Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in your statement of the 2nd of May, you say that the Serbs burnt all the houses. Is that what you said? Right?

A. 14th of April they burnt all the houses. They had burnt some before, but on the 14th of April, it was the whole village.

Q. You say that they burnt all the houses but that they did not harm anyone in the village and that you fled from the village with your family to Djakovica. What actually happened? You said: "All the houses were burnt. They didn't harm anyone, and we escaped to Djakovica." Is that the essence of the story you're telling? ⁸¹⁹⁵

A. It was only the person who was hit by a shell who was killed. Others, no. On the 25th of May, 1998.

Q. All right. And then you go on to say that you stayed in Djakovica until the end of March 1999. Is that correct, that you stayed there until the end of March 1999?

A. We stayed there in Gjakove until 5th of April, 1999.

Q. All right. Until the 5th of April. Does that mean, then, from May 1998 until the 5th of April, 1999 you were in Djakovica? Because that is what emerges from what you say, from what I'm asking you and from your answers. From May 1998 to the end of -- or, rather, the 5th of April, 1999, you were in Djakovica; right?

A. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: I think you may be confusing the witness. The statement says: "25th of May --" I read this out -- "the Serbs started shelling the village. We continued to live in the village for two months more," and then you say: "but by that time, my family had already fled the village."

Now, I may have missed this: When did you go to Gjakove?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We went in July, the beginning of July. I don't know the exact date, but it was in July 1998.

JUDGE MAY: So you were there from July 1998 to the 5th of April, 1999. The witness --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. Mr. May, I think that cross-examination serves the purpose of having the witness answer orally to what it says here and not to prove whether something is ^{8196 BLANK PAGE 8197} written down or not.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course, but you mustn't mislead the witness, and you mustn't confuse her. The witness must have the chance of answering fairly and properly. That's the point.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And do you think it's confusing for me to ask her whether that means from such-and-such a date, from May until April 1999, you were in Djakovica, that that is a confusing question?

JUDGE MAY: Move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it appears to me that every witness is a protected witness as far as you're concerned, different forms of protection, that is.

JUDGE MAY: That is an improper comment. You know quite well why you get interrupted, and you will be interrupted if you try and confuse and mislead the witnesses. That is not a proper form of cross-examination and it's the Court's duty to stop it. Now, move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Tell me this, please: In view of the fact that all the houses had been burnt, how were you able to go back to your father's house then?

A. On 14th of April, 1999, all the houses were burnt. Let me say that again.

Q. Yes. But my question was this: As you say that that was the situation at the time, how were you able to go back to your father's house if it had been burnt? How could you return to a house that had been burnt down? ⁸¹⁹⁸

A. On the 14th of April, 1999, when we set off for Albania, all the houses were burnt. They were burnt before, too, but on 14th of April, 1999, all the houses in Nivokaz were burnt.

Q. Now, can you answer me this: How did you go back to your father's house, how could you, if it had been burnt down?

JUDGE MAY: You will have to explain the question to the witness so that she can understand what you mean.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I mean what I'm asking, Mr. May. She says she went back to her father's house. Before that, she had claimed that all the houses had been burnt down. So I'm asking her now how she managed to return to her father's burnt-down house. That's the question.

JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question? If you don't understand the question, Ms. Syla, simply say, "I don't understand the question," and the accused will have to clarify it. If you do understand the question, then answer it as best you can.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that on the 14th of April, 1999, all the houses were burnt.

JUDGE MAY: I think he's asking you about earlier times. Mr. Milosevic, if you want this question clarified -- answered, you'll have to clarify it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When did you go back to your father's house?

A. After the NATO bombing.

Q. So you're talking about after the war. And during the war, when ⁸¹⁹⁹ did you return to your father's house?

A. During the war.

Q. When?

JUDGE MAY: Let's try and clarify this. You go from the village to Gjakove in July of 1998. And then, as I understand it, on the 5th of April, you come back to the village.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And you're there for a few days but then you're expelled. Is that the order of things?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Now, I think the point that is being made is that on an earlier occasion, in July, I think you're saying that the Serbs burnt the houses, and I think all the houses, Judge Kwon kindly reminds me. Now, the point that's being made is if in July the Serbs had burnt all the houses, how were you able the following April to return to your father's house in the village? Do you understand the point that's being made? There may be an answer to it which you can give.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Right. Can you explain to us what happened?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998, in July, some houses were burnt. And on the 14th of April, 1999, all the houses were burnt.

JUDGE MAY: Was your father's house one of the houses that were burnt in July 1998?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not burnt.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁸²⁰⁰

Q. So the answer is it was not burnt; right?

JUDGE MAY: She just said that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You left Djakovica because of the bombing; is that right?

A. No; because of your police and army.

Q. All right. Now, do you remember the bombing of Djakovica?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you say -- can you tell us whether there was a mass bombing of Djakovica?

A. Only military targets. Only at weaponry. They didn't bomb the houses.

Q. And do you know that at the time NATO targeted the very centre of town and that there was destruction and that a fire broke out? Do you remember that particular bombardment?

A. Yes, but I don't know the date. But I heard of it.

Q. Do you know that on the occasion, 28 residential buildings were set fire to as a result of the explosions of the bombing in Djakovica? They went up in flames.

A. No.

Q. And do you remember that on the occasion, for example, Ferizi, Avni Ferizi and Shefqet Pruthi, in that bombing, the bombing in the centre of town, were killed? They were Albanians, both of them, and both from Djakovica. Do you remember how they were killed during that bombing? Do you remember how many casualties and victims remained under the debris ⁸²⁰¹ after the bombing?

A. The only victims were from the army and the police who entered the houses and executed people. That's what I've heard. Not from the bombing.

Q. All right. But I understood you to say a moment ago that you had heard about these victims, the victims of the bombings of the centre of town.

JUDGE MAY: She has given you the answer, and there's clearly a dispute about this as to who was responsible, and it's one we're going to have to resolve. Now, she wasn't there at the time, or she wasn't in the centre of town at the time, so she can only give very limited evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Djakovica is not New York for somebody not to have been in the centre of town. If the centre of Djakovica is being bombarded, then there are no inhabitants of Djakovica who wouldn't know about it.

JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. In your statement, I see that you're quite well-versed in armaments, because in the 2001 statement, May, you say that the Yugoslav army was -- had automatic representatives of the Gulinov type. What kind of weaponry is that? Can you tell us? It's very specific, very specific weaponry. Could you explain it to us?

A. I -- I only saw a few. I didn't see things with my own eyes. I just saw a few. I only saw automatic weapons.

Q. All right. And who told you to enumerate these weapons and to use ⁸²⁰² their exact names, as you have done?

A. Can you ask the question, please? It's not clear to me.

Q. I'm asking you the following: As you claim that they had the Gulinov type of automatic rifle, and you say that all you know is that it was automatic, so who told you that that was the name of that weapon and to say so, to state that? Because quite obviously you don't know that, it's not something that you yourself know; right?

A. I didn't talk about Gulinovs. I don't know what it is. I didn't talk about this in my statement.

Q. All right. That is enough. What you say is quite sufficient. Now, tell me, if you were watching from a distance of 300 metres, were you able to recognise any type of weapon in particular?

A. Only when the city of Gjakove was burned we saw flames coming, and we saw the flames coming towards us. But we know that they didn't set fire to houses with Gulinovs but with some kind of small gun.

Q. That was after the bombing, wasn't it? You saw that flame after the bombing; right, the fire after the bombing?

A. They began when the bombing began. The Serbs began acting when the bombing began.

Q. All right. Tell me, please, did you ever have that kind of weapon in your hands? Did you hold a weapon of that type ever?

A. I've never had an arm in my hands, an automatic weapon, no.

Q. Did you ever hold any kind of weapon in your hands?

A. No.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, where is this reference that you're ⁸²⁰³ making to the Gulinov rifle? We can't find it.

MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, it's at page 2 --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 2 of the statement --

MS. ROMANO: -- of October --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- dated the 3rd of September 2001.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, yes.

MS. ROMANO: It's on page 2 and the bottom of page 2 of the statement on the 5th of October, 2001, the second statement.

JUDGE MAY: Is this in the English?

MS. ROMANO: Yes, in English. The seventh paragraph. The --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel. Microphone, please, Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: "The attack started --"

JUDGE MAY: I've got it.

MS. ROMANO: That's the paragraph.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your statement of the 5th of September, 2001, you also say that on the 6th of April, you started out from Djakovica on foot towards your village of Nivokaz and that there were 15 of you in the group, 15 people in the group. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that that was the first time you came to the village after you left it in 1998? ⁸²⁰⁴

A. Yes.

Q. And how many people were there in the village at that time?

A. Quite a few when we returned to our village and the other villages too.

Q. There were others there too. That means that the houses hadn't been burnt; right?

A. The other villages around.

Q. But your village wasn't burnt, just the villages around your own village; right?

A. All the villages were burnt down on the 14th of April, 1999; everything. There weren't any houses which were not unburnt [as interpreted].

Q. All right, let's move on, not to waste time, because your statements are very interesting. How, then, can you explain the fact that in the village everything was burnt - that's what you say, right? - and that then you formed a column of 25 to 30 tractors with trailers and in each tractor there were over 20 people, et cetera. So how come this column started up? And if everything had been burnt, where did you get the tractors and the trailers from? Does that mean that the houses were burnt but not the tractors and trailers?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness answer. Can you deal with that, please? Were the tractors not burnt?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the tractors were not burnt. In the village of Meja, Dobrosh, there were tractors which were not burnt. I didn't say that the tractors had all been burnt. ⁸²⁰⁵

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. That means, if I understand you -- or here's my question: Does that mean that the houses were burnt but that nobody touched the tractors? Right?

A. Yes.

Q. In your statement, you go on to say that the people loaded up their belongings onto the tractors. Now, if their houses had been burnt, where did they get their belongings from?

A. All we put onto the tractors were the people, the family members. We didn't have any property to take with us. Also things from the unburnt houses.

Q. All right. Now, please, on 4 of your statement dated 2001, you say that the column of tractors was 15 kilometres long. Is that correct?

A. It was about that. All the villages in the municipality of Gjakove were in that valley. So it was quite long. Dobrosh, Sheremetaj Dallashaj and Meja.

Q. All right. Now, if that was 15 kilometres, the head of the column was already in Djakovica, whereas the tail had not even left their yards in the surrounding villages yet. Is that right?

A. In Meja. It was a long convoy, about as long as I said, but it was very long. There were a lot of people in it.

Q. And tell me where you yourself were in that column; at the head of the column, at the end of the column, in the middle? Where were you?

A. I was towards the end.

Q. Towards the end of the column. ⁸²⁰⁶

A. Not exactly at the end but towards the end. In the second half of the convoy.

Q. And how were you able to assess that the column was 15 kilometres long if you were at its tail end, if you had joined it towards the end of the column?

A. Well, we waited for the first parts of the convoy to set off and to pass. We joined it towards the end. The other villages set off first. And we saw them passing, all the convoy as it passed.

Q. All right. As you say that the police escorted you the whole time, does that mean that the policemen marched together with the convoy throughout its whole length, that is to say, 15 kilometres? How many policemen would there have been then?

A. There were quite a few. You would know better.

Q. All right. So that, then - let's just be specific - happened on the 14th of April, 1999. Is that correct or not?

A. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is coming up. In fact, you've probably had the best part of three-quarters of an hour. So if you want to ask questions about what happened on the bridge, you should do so now. You have another five minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're speaking about the bridge at Bistrazin; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: You're the one who's referring to it. Yes, go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁸²⁰⁷

Q. Would you take a look at these photographs now, please. They show the bombed tractors, carbonised bodies, the people in them.

JUDGE MAY: Have you got the photos there? Yes. If the usher would get them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are these the scenes?

A. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: There will be another one. The second one, please. Do you recognise that?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. A group of people -- charred bodies, rather. Tell me, now, was this bombing by NATO?

A. They -- a lot of people passed, and other planes passed afterwards. I don't know whether it was NATO or not. There was -- the army was there, and we were stopped and we were forced to get off the tractors.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can we finish with those? Is there anything else you want to ask?

Do you recognise that scene? Do you recognise that scene or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A lot of people hurt.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, where were these three bombs thrown? Which part of the column? You say that there were three groups. Which part of the column was affected; the beginning, the end, the middle? ⁸²⁰⁸

A. Ones at the beginning. I didn't see it, but I saw it at a distance, about 50 metres away, when the bombing from the plane came. And there were people hurt. There were 30 people on a tractor. It was a very small attack; when NATO attacked, the whole earth shook.

Q. Do I understand this right: Was the beginning of the column hit? Is that right?

A. The head of the convoy and towards the second half again.

Q. Tell me. You were moving towards your houses; is that right? The column was moving towards their houses.

A. Can you ask that again?

Q. In which direction was the column moving?

A. Towards Albania on the 14th.

Q. Since you said that it was a very long column, there were all tractors, many villagers on tractors - children, et cetera - was it visible from a great distance that this was a column of civilians? There were horse-drawn carts, too, in the column; right? There were children, there were civilians, old people.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, do you remember how many times aeroplanes bombed that column?

A. In about seven places.

Q. And tell me, please, why did you state that you saw the Yugoslav air force signs on the aircraft? Who told you to say that?

JUDGE MAY: Did anybody tell you to say that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I saw the planes because they ⁸²⁰⁹ were very low. We could barely distinguish the NATO aircraft because they flew very high. If the NATO planes had -- the NATO planes were very, very high up.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You claim that you saw with your very own eyes signs on the aeroplanes. Our very own signs on aeroplanes. Is that your assertion?

A. Yes.

Q. What do these signs look like? What is it that you saw? Please describe for me what you saw.

A. The Yugoslav flag, a tricolour; red, white, and blue. This was the entire plan of the accused, to do this sort of thing and blame NATO.

Q. Oh, fine. Now you finally revealed that. And do you know perhaps, if you ever listened to the radio, watched television, read newspapers, that NATO admitted that they had bombed that particular spot? They took the responsibility for that bombing and purportedly expressed their regrets over the fact that it had happened. Do you know about that?

A. Perhaps NATO bombed at the beginning, but where we were, not our place, no. Nor for very long. It barely lasted for five minutes.

JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I would like you to give me an answer. Since you could not have seen Yugoslav aeroplanes and since it is well-known, generally known, who did this, who told you to state that it was Yugoslav aeroplanes that you had seen? Who told you to say that?

JUDGE MAY: She has answered that question. She said nobody did, ^{8210 BLANK PAGE 8211} and that is what she saw, and that's her evidence. No point arguing about it.

Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions?

MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: Just one matter, Your Honour Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, on the 25th of March, 1999, what happened to the centre of the town in the area of the old market?

A. At night, when the NATO bombing started, the entire old market area of Gjakove was burnt, and they started to execute -- executing people. And we were to one side. We were in Cabrat. We could see things burning, and we could see them looting televisions and other appliance, and people told us that they were also executing people. And that was when they executed Dr. Izet Hima, the oldest doctor in Gjakove.

Q. Witness, how far were you from the old centre, from the old town?

A. We were on the edge of town, but the old market was quite close as the crow flies.

Q. And could you --

A. 200 metres.

Q. And from this 200 metres, could you see who was doing the burning?

A. We didn't see them that night, but we saw them the next day because they were burning houses at night -- during the day, too, and we saw them. They would fire at the houses and they would suddenly erupt into flames. ⁸²¹²

Q. Who are "they"?

A. The Serbs.

Q. Are they police, soldiers?

A. They were citizens and police.

Q. And how were they burning? Were they using any instrument, any weapon?

A. Guns. I don't know what they had in these guns, but they would fire at the houses and they would go up in flames.

Q. Thank you, Witness.

MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Syla, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

JUDGE MAY: Before the next witness is called, I think there is a matter that Mr. Wladimiroff wants to raise, and there are also a few matters I'm going to deal with first.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: First of all, K32. We've considered the protective measures order and we'll grant it -- or the protective measures application; we'll grant it. Pseudonym and I think visual distortion, as I recollect.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: The next matter is a ruling on the admissibility of the statement of Marjan Krasniqi under Rule 92 bis. The Trial Chamber will admit this statement under the Rule. It ⁸²¹³ does not relate to the acts and conduct of the accused and is of a cumulative nature. It relates to incidents about which other evidence was given. The Trial Chamber will not require the witness to attend for cross-examination. The accused now says he wants to cross-examine the witness, but it was at his original request that the statement was exhibited. This request led to the application by the Prosecution. The accused did not consider cross-examination was necessary then when he made the application, and simply because the Prosecution have applied to have it admitted under 92 bis, there is no reason for cross-examination now. That said, it should be stressed that the Trial Chamber will take into consideration all the contents of the statement, and that includes the exculpatory parts.

The original marking for the statement, which was Exhibit D23, will be vacated. That was a marking for identification. And it will be given a new exhibit number. If the registrar would do that, please. Just a moment.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 271.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His statement is contradictory to what was asserted. It is obvious from his statement that a local criminal group had committed the crime. The fact that I pointed out it's contradictory in nature cannot be a reason, to my mind, for this Prosecution witness not to be cross-examined here, although I pointed out --

JUDGE MAY: We have ruled on that. You've heard me give the ⁸²¹⁴ ruling. So there's no point arguing about it further. You also heard me say that we would take into account all the contents, including the exculpatory parts, and I remind you it was your application that the statement be exhibited. Now, we've taken all that into account and we've ruled. So it will be part of the evidence and you can refer to it. Now, Mr. Ryneveld, are we ready for the next witness?

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Mr. Wladimiroff, I'm sorry. Yes.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honours. There is a matter I want to raise with the Court and that relates to the witness Karleusa, who will be on either today or tomorrow.

Your Honours may have noticed that the filing related to this witness is confidential, and I'm not sure whether I should discuss the matter in open court.

JUDGE MAY: I don't think there's going to be any application for confidentiality, protective measures, as far as I know.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right. I will try to deal with the matter as concisely as possible.

The Court may remember there are attachments, annexes, to the intended statement of this witness. There are two newspaper articles, two communiques, that is, press releases, and a number of interviews conducted by the working group with about 21 or 22 witnesses, and a number of photographs.

I have no difficulty with the photographs or the press communiques because I take it the accused will be able to cross-examine the witness on ⁸²¹⁵ these issues. I do have a problem, though, with the newspaper articles. It seems not consistent with the policy of your Chamber to accept that opinions of journalists will be admitted as evidence. So we would object to that. Precisely I intend to explain to you why we have a difficulty with the number of interviews conducted with the working group. Your Honours may have noticed that these statements are -- not all of them are authenticated. There were some signatures on front pages but not really related to all the statements itself. So it seems to us that these are summaries by an investigator which are not under the -- well, let me rephrase it -- which should be not admitted by the Court if the Prosecutor intends to tender them. It's my understanding that the Prosecutor does intend to tender them.

These statements would not qualify for a 92 bis statement because, as I said, these are not signed statements, nor will the Prosecutor -- nor will the accused be able to cross-examine these witnesses if they were tendered as 92 bis statements. So we believe it will not be fair to him to allow the witness -- to allow the Prosecution to have these statements tendered.

Now, we can do two things: Either we can argue in detail when the witness will be here, or we will file a motion on the issue. It's up to the Court what you would prefer, I just want to alert you on the issue.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, we've heard the objection. It would be much more convenient, I should have thought, to deal with it orally.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right.

JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution are alerted to your objection, we are ⁸²¹⁶ too, so we'll be able to consider it, and in due course we can hear full argument.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: Very well, then. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. In those circumstances, I propose to call Witness K32. And before he takes the courtroom, in light of your ruling for protective measures --

JUDGE MAY: It's pointed out, Mr. Ryneveld, that it may be more convenient, in order that the Court could be prepared, if we take the adjournment now.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I was just about to say that. In light of protective measures, we're going to have to at least get him here.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If we adjourn now for 20 minutes, we will be back at 20 to.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

--- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: WITNESS K32

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to sit down.

MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, the first thing, could you put this paper in front of the witness, please. And there are copies of this ⁸²¹⁷ document for Madam Registrar.

Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

Q. Witness, don't say anything yet. Just look at that piece of paper, and on that paper do you see your name and your date of birth and a number, K32, underneath it? Is that your name and birth date? Yes or no.

MR. RYNEVELD: Is the witness hearing translation? Does he have the right channel on?

Q. I'll repeat my question. Can you hear me, Witness?

A. Yes.

Q. Look at the piece of paper that you've just been given, sir. On it is a name and a date of birth, and underneath that, the number K32. Is that your name and date of birth? Yes or no.

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether we want to mark that as an exhibit. I believe we have in the past, Your Honours. Thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 272, to be kept under seal.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Q. Now, Witness, do I understand, sir, that on the 26th of April of this year, 2002, you gave a statement to an investigator of the ICTY? Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And later on, sir, on the 8th of July, earlier this month, 2002, did you take another investigator, a Mr. Jonathan Sutch, on a tour of the area that you had discussed in that earlier statement? ⁸²¹⁸

A. Yes.

Q. And in so doing, did you learn the names of some of the villages and locations which you were not familiar with at the time you gave your statement?

A. Yes.

Q. Subsequently, sir, on the 15th of July of this year, two days ago, did you have an opportunity to review that earlier statement and make some corrections and amendments to it?

A. Yes.

Q. And finally, sir, as a result of -- at my request, did you, with the assistance of members of the ICTY, produce or have produced a map which shows the areas to which you will be making reference in your statement?

A. Yes.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, perhaps -- we have copies, colour copies of that document. Perhaps that can be shown to the witness.

Q. Just looking very briefly at that map, if you would, please, sir, does that map show -- the little green circles on the map, does that show the areas that you've made reference to in your statement?

A. Yes. It shows everything.

Q. Thank you.

MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked as an exhibit at this point and then we can refer to it as he goes through his evidence, please, Your Honours.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 273. ⁸²¹⁹

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Q. Now, Witness K32, I understand, sir, that you are 26 years old, you're a Muslim, and you're from Montenegro; is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true, sir, that you were conscripted to start your service with the VJ in March of 1998?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. And then by the 10th of June of 1998, I understand that you were sent to Prizren in Kosovo, and you joined the Logistics Corps as a driver. Is that also correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And after some time, you eventually ended up being assigned to a combat group in the village of Damjane which was, at the time, occupied by civilians; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, sir, can you tell us from your knowledge as a driver in the area, did you visit -- what was your function as a driver? What were you specifically doing? Where were you driving to and what were you delivering?

A. I was driving food in the army. I was delivering food throughout the field. And water too.

Q. And do I understand correctly, sir, that there were various combat groups in the area where you had to deliver your food and water?

A. Yes.

Q. I take it the translation I didn't get was, "Yes." ⁸²²⁰

A. Yes, yes. Right.

Q. Now, sir, how many combat groups were there in the area, to your knowledge?

A. Five.

Q. And these five combat groups, do you happen to know who their commander was? Who was in charge of these five groups?

A. Colonel Bozidar Delic.

Q. And under him, did each of those combat groups have a particular commander in charge of each individual group?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. How about in your group? Who was the commander of your particular combat group?

A. Mostly they were lieutenant colonels by rank, and Bozidar was in command of them.

Q. And when you say "Bozidar," you're talking about Delic?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, sir, what combat group were you in?

A. Combat group 2.

Q. And how many soldiers were in your combat group?

A. There were between 150 to 190 soldiers. It differed and changed. From 150 to 190.

Q. Your particular combat group, are you aware whether it had any military equipment of any kind, and if so, very briefly, what kind of equipment was at its disposal?

A. Yes, it did: Two tanks, four howitzers, and a number of military ⁸²²¹ vehicles for transporting the soldiers and for the purposes of the army.

Q. Now, sir, shortly after -- you've told us that you were moved to Damjane. Once you got to Damjane, did something happen? Did you see Colonel Delic arrive?

A. Yes, I saw him.

Q. Upon his arrival, are you aware of what happened?

A. Yes, I am aware of it. Upon his arrival, he issued orders to the officers subordinate to him, and he said that they should get all the civilians out of the houses, that there should be no civilians left.

Q. And how is it that you know about that order? Did you hear it personally or did you hear it from someone else?

A. I didn't hear it personally, but the soldier who was with me told me about it, and he heard him say that personally.

Q. All right. In any event, what did the soldiers do?

A. The soldiers, following orders issued by their commanders, went from house to house and ordered the people to come out of the houses, the civilians.

Q. Did they do that?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened -- like, how quickly did the civilians in Damjane, how quickly did they follow the order to leave?

A. Well, the order was that they should leave within the day. And actually, they left within the space of three hours -- or, rather, 3.00. It was 3.00 when everybody had left.

Q. Do you remember about what time of day they were told to leave? ⁸²²²

A. In the course of the day by noon. We came in the morning. As fast as possible, that they should leave as fast as possible.

Q. Now, by the following day, were there any civilians left in Damjane, to your knowledge?

A. No, there were none left.

Q. What, if anything, did the civilians take with them or leave behind upon having been told by your fellow soldiers to leave?

A. They only took their personal belongings with them and left all the rest. The army said that they wouldn't touch any of their property, that they could feel free to leave it behind. So they only took their personal belongings with them.

Q. Were there any vehicles left behind?

A. Yes, the vehicles were left behind.

Q. What happened to those vehicles once the civilians left?

A. We took them. The Yugoslav army took them for army purposes.

Q. Did the army live up to its promise to these civilians that they would not touch their personal belongings?

A. No, it did not.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, what they told the civilians they didn't abide by. They told them that they wouldn't touch their property and that they wouldn't touch their houses, but they did.

Q. Now, sir, once these civilians left, what steps were taken to -- were any steps taken at all in order to secure the area?

A. First of all, we blocked the roads. We put up barriers on the ⁸²²³ roads, and nobody could enter the village after that.

Q. To your knowledge, did anyone try?

A. They did try, some people, but they weren't allowed to enter. They came back to take some more belongings, but they weren't allowed in. The army didn't permit them.

Q. What happened to them, if anything, when they did try to get into the village?

A. They were mistreated somewhat by the soldiers, and similar things, and so they had to leave.

Q. Now, you earlier told us, sir, about the army not living up to its promise not to touch their belongings. Do you know anything about what happened to the contents of a house or houses?

A. Most of the things were taken away, like television sets, radios, and all that kind of electrical equipment and other things from the house, and some of the officers would take them to their own homes. I saw that taking place personally.

Q. Did they leave their cattle behind?

A. Yes, they did. They left their cattle behind.

Q. What happened to the cattle or any of them?

A. Well, mostly the sheep. How can I put it? They took the sheep for themselves to eat.

Q. Where did the soldiers live while in Damjane?

A. In the houses, the civilian houses, the ones we had expelled the people from.

Q. I see. I'm going to turn you next, your mind next, if I may, to ^{8224 BLANK PAGE 8225} the period between the 1st and the 3rd of August of 1998. Were you aware of what was known as a mopping-up operation between those dates?

A. I did not know.

Q. Do you recall an instance of an area between Djakovica, along the road to Klina?

A. I remember, yes.

Q. All right. Sir, what happened on the road between Djakovica towards Klina between the 1st and the 3rd of August? Can you tell us a little bit of background about how it was that you were on that road and what you were doing and what happened, if a specific instance happened, while you were doing that.

A. There was a very large army column going to help the police as reinforcement. We were going as reinforcements. The first village we came to, we stopped. Colonel Bozidar Delic ordered a tanker -- tankist to turn the tank around towards a house, and that was at the first village we had arrived at, and ordered him to fire at the house. I saw and heard that personally.

Q. All right. We're going to get to that in just a moment. I'm going to back you up just a little bit first.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm at paragraph 6 of the summary.

Q. En route towards this village that you referred to, do you recall an instance where you were delivering water to some soldiers and that there had been an incident in a cornfield?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Tell us about that first, please. ⁸²²⁶

A. When I was delivering water to the soldiers, some of the soldiers - and I had quite a lot of friends there - I saw two dead people, Albanians, five or six metres away from me, and I asked one of my friends what had happened, and he said, "We found them alive in the cornfields over there, and we asked them some things and then we killed them."

Q. Did you look at the bodies?

A. Yes, I saw the bodies.

Q. Did you notice anything about any kind of wounds to these bodies?

A. Yes. I saw that the bodies had no ears, and in the nape of the neck, that's where they were shot at with pistols.

Q. Could you tell whether this had been a recent killing or whether that had happened quite some time ago?

A. Yes. The killing had taken place just before I had arrived, not long before. Perhaps half an hour. Half an hour. They were killed half an hour before I had arrived.

Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why your friends or the soldiers killed these two men? Were you told anything about that?

A. Allegedly, those two Albanians told them that there was a trench of some kind up there of 200 metres and that there were more people up there who were armed. But I didn't believe that.

Q. And upon telling the soldiers that information, they were killed? Is that what you understood?

A. Yes. Yes, that's right. Straight away. The soldier who saw it take place told me.

Q. Were you informed whether there had been any kind of a gun battle ⁸²²⁷ leading up to this incident?

A. I didn't learn of that.

Q. In any event, sir, I understand that you were there when a coroner's van arrived and took the bodies away; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Now, sir, you were about to tell us, before I asked you to back up and tell us about this incident, about Colonel Delic stopping outside a village and telling a tank to do something. First of all, do you have -- do you know approximately where that village was and do you now know the name of the village? Perhaps you might want to look at the map, if the exhibit is available to the witness.

Do you see the map there? The left margin.

A. I see it, yes.

Q. Do you see the name of the village of this incident?

A. Yes, I can see the name of the village.

Q. And what is it?

A. Medevce, the village of Medevce.

Q. Is that spelled M-e-c-e/M-e-q-e depending on whether it's Serbian or Albanian?

JUDGE MAY: It's a "D" I must say.

MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm --

JUDGE MAY: I'm just looking at the map.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was written up in Albanian and in Serbian, I think.

MR. RYNEVELD: ⁸²²⁸

Q. Yes, perhaps you could point --

MR. RYNEVELD: There are two, yes, Your Honours. I see there is also a Medevce in the middle of the map and then there's a Mece in the extreme left top quadrant of the map.

Q. Which village are you speaking about now, sir?

MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps we could show it on the ELMO.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here. Here it is, I've already indicated.

MR. RYNEVELD: All right. Your Honours, the witness does appear to be pointing to the green circle in the top left quadrant of the map, which is Mece.

Q. Thank you. What happened there, sir, when you got to that village?

A. We stopped at a spot. The village was about 300 metres away from us. Bozidar Delic got out of his car, he ordered us to stop, all of us. He came up to the tank, and he waited a few minutes and then ordered him to fire a shell at the house that could be seen over there, which the tank did.

Q. What happened then?

A. Nothing happened. But then he waited for a few more minutes and then gave the same order, that another shell should be fired. And then the civilians, mostly women and children, started fleeing from the house and fleeing towards the woods behind the houses. And then he ordered the infantry to start out towards the houses there and to start their operation. That's what I heard him order. ⁸²²⁹

Q. When you say "start their operation," did he tell them what to do?

A. To start the mop-up operation. That's understood.

Q. What did you understand that order to mean to you?

A. I understood it to mean that the terrorists should be killed and -- well, I didn't understand whether it applied to civilians too, but anyway, he ordered them to start mopping up. But they didn't tell us anything, no concrete -- nothing in specific terms.

Q. Now, sir, did the soldiers, in fact, do that?

A. Yes, they did that. They started the operation right then and there.

Q. What happened next?

A. We continued our journey, and that army, those soldiers, moved towards other villages, but we went along the road.

Q. And how far away did you get before you got to the next village?

A. I think five or six kilometres, thereabouts.

MR. RYNEVELD: And, Your Honours, just north of the last green circle where we have Mece, you will see that there are two villages to the north, as it were.

Q. Witness, could you look at the map, again.

MR. RYNEVELD: Could you leave -- is the map still there, Mr. Usher? Could you leave it with him during the course of his evidence. He will be referring to it from time to time.

Q. Now, sir, you said some kilometres away -- do you see the map? Perhaps you could look right at the map itself rather than the image on the screen. It's hard to read. ⁸²³⁰

A. Yes, I can see it.

Q. Okay. Do you know the name of the village you next saw?

A. The name of the next village, I didn't remember it, actually.

Q. No, you didn't remember --

A. The name of the next village is -- before Rakovica, there was a small village, I didn't remember the name, but we came across the civilian police force there and a few of the other ones, the special units, PJPs, and they were setting fire to the houses when we came. The houses were already burning. I saw that myself.

Q. Now -- go ahead. Go ahead.

A. I saw a policeman taking out some belongings, like tools. They were tools and things like that.

Q. On the 8th of July, when you went with Investigator Sutch to this area, did you then realise that the village that you had been describing was Rakovina? Does that name ring a bell to you or are you unable to say?

A. Yes, it does ring a bell. It was the village of Rakovina.

Q. Now, did something happen while you were staying in that particular area during the course of the next few days? What happened there?

A. We were in the village of Rakovina. We spent two nights there. And on the last day, there was some shooting in the afternoon. I didn't know who was doing the shooting, you couldn't see it. But we were all shooting at one particular spot. There was a hill there, and we were all shooting at that hill. But I didn't see who was up there. ⁸²³¹

Q. Now, when you say "we were all," are you talking about both the PJP and the VJ combat unit that you were in or just your unit or what?

A. There was the police there and the army. They were together.

Q. And you were all working together at that particular time; is that what you're telling us?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, sir, I'm going to go very quickly over the next areas.

MR. RYNEVELD: And, Your Honours, I propose to lead a little bit.

Q. Sir, I understand that you went on home leave after this particular incident, and on the 3rd of August you returned and stayed for some time; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. You were supposed to return after a short period of leave, but you stayed -- you decided not to return to the army and stayed away until the 21st of November, when something happened. What was that?

A. What happened was the following: The army of Yugoslavia came to get me. About 15 soldiers came to pick me up at 4.00 in the morning. I was transferred to Nis, to the prison there. From Nis -- actually, I was in Nis for 20 days in the military investigative prison. I had to go. I had to ask to be transferred to the same unit where I had been before. That's what happened.

Q. Now, do I understand correctly, sir, that after some negotiation with the assistance of your father and some local politicians, you received sort of like a bail from your military prison and returned to duty again as a driver with a different combat unit? ⁸²³²

A. No, I was sent to the same combat unit.

Q. All right, I'm sorry. The same combat unit, and this is back in Prizren now; is that correct, sir?

A. Yes. Excuse me. I was sent to my barracks. That's what I meant when I said "unit."

Q. All right. That was my fault. I led you to -- all right. In any event, you're let out of gaol and you report back for duty as a driver at the barracks in Prizren with the same combat unit; correct?

A. Yes, yes, yes.

Q. Let's skip ahead now to about mid-March of 1999. And are you aware, sir, of an offensive on a village known as Jeskovo?

A. I was not aware of that.

Q. Well, that's my phrasing. Did something happen with respect to Jeskovo or Jeshkove?

A. Yes. In the morning, we were on the alert and we were taken to a village towards Dragash. They did not tell us where we were going. I just know that we surrounded a village. And there were 1.000 soldiers and 300 policemen there altogether, surrounding that village, and allegedly there were terrorists in that village.

Q. And did you see Delic present during that particular operation?

A. Yes, he was present.

Q. Can you tell us where you were in relation to him and what, if anything, you heard or saw that relates to the matter now before the Court?

A. I saw Delic as we were entering the village itself. I saw him. ⁸²³³ He was near me. I think he was about 20 or 30 metres away from me. As we were entering the village, we said that we should not let a single person remain alive.

Q. Now --

JUDGE MAY: That's not very clear. Can you clarify that?

MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly will, Your Honour. I intend to back up.

Q. Did you see Delic -- I'm sorry. Who was -- were you near your particular combat unit commander at any point?

A. At one moment towards the end of the operation, I was near my very own commander, the commander of my company, who was listening to his orders.

Q. How did he get these orders transmitted? Let me be -- did he have a radio with him?

A. Yes. He had a radio transmitter with him. Every company commander had to have a radio transmitter with him.

Q. On this particular occasion, were you near enough to your particular combat unit commander to be able to overhear transmissions coming in on that radio?

A. Yes, I was nearby, very close.

Q. Did you hear something being said on your commander's radio?

A. Yes. I heard him say --

Q. What was it?

A. He said over the radio - I heard his voice very well - he said --

JUDGE MAY: Who? Will we have some clarity? Who was speaking? ⁸²³⁴

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That was the next question.

Q. Whose voice did you hear coming over the radio?

A. I heard the voice of Bozidar Delic, the commander of that operation.

Q. And what did you hear him say on the radio?

A. He said, "Get ready. In a minute or two, fire will be opened." And then we waited for him to issue the order to start. And the order was that that would happen when a tank would fire a shell and then when the shell would arrive in the village. That was a kind of password.

Q. Did you hear the order?

A. Yes, I heard that order.

Q. Who gave it?

A. Bozidar Delic.

Q. What happened next?

A. When the tank fired a shell from the neighbouring village, then it exploded in this village. And then our commanders ordered us to fire at the village. And that was a pleasure for them.

Q. Did they follow his order?

A. Yes. They followed every order. That one too.

Q. What happened next?

A. We were shooting for about half an hour, I think, all of us. I can't say that it was exactly half an hour, but I think it was around that time. Then we took about an hour off. He ordered to stop firing.

JUDGE MAY: None of this relates to his first comment, "We were told," something or other. I want to know whether that's the truth or ⁸²³⁵ not.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, it's actually coming -- it's coming in about the next minute or two. I'm trying to get through this chronologically so the Court can understand the manner in which it happened. If you look at paragraph 11, I'm just -- just before that -- the witness skipped ahead to that particular issue, and I backed him up.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will keep going.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Q. So after the firing took place, sir, did you hear Delic give a further order?

A. He said, after one hour, that we should move towards the village, that we should go down towards the village. As we were going down, somebody started firing again, and we continued to shoot again. It was brief, for about five or ten minutes. Everybody was shooting. The shooting stopped, and no one could be heard shooting, and we started moving towards the village. When we entered the village, that's when I got close to Bozidar Delic, and I personally heard him say that when we enter the village that we should make an effort not to let anyone remain alive, anyone we find in the village.

Then when entering the village, the police captured an Albanian who was getting out of the house, and he was shouting, "I surrender. I surrender." But he had no time to surrender. They shot him in the ears and they killed him immediately. First a soldier shot who was near the policeman, but the policeman shouted at the soldier, "Why didn't you let me shoot at him at that moment?" I saw that very well. The policeman ⁸²³⁶ took out a knife and cut off his ears, and that is where the operation practically ended.

Then we received orders to get ready to go to the barracks. I saw many dead bodies in the village; seven to be exact. I saw seven, but there were more.

When we returned to the barracks, the next day I heard there were about 30 persons killed. Allegedly they were terrorists. I saw civilians. Nobody wore a uniform. None of them did. And the next day, the police gathered these dead bodies.

Q. Just stop there. I've got to ask you a couple of questions for clarification. You told us that this one man came out, saying, "I surrender. I surrender." Did you see him make any --

A. Yes.

Q. -- other movements? What, if anything, was he doing with his hands or arms? Could you describe for the Court how he came out, just show us, please.

You're now putting your hands in the air to either side of your head; is that correct?

A. Yes. Yes. And he was shouting, "I surrender. I surrender." He didn't speak Serbian very well, but I remember him very well.

Q. How was he dressed? Was he in civilian -- I'm sorry, you've already told us. You saw no one in uniform; correct?

A. Yes. I did not see anyone wearing a uniform. He was in civilian clothes.

Q. Now, sir, a few days later, I understand, on the 18th of March, ⁸²³⁷ you received a fine and given a one-year good behaviour bond with respect to your desertion from the army; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And then you returned to Prizren on the 20th of March, and then four days later, the 24th of March, you were deployed with your battalion to another village close to Orahovac. Do you remember the name of that village?

A. The village of Trnje, Novake and Trnje. That's where we were.

Q. A village near Novake, is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. And on the map, could you point out Trnje for Their Honours? Do you have that map available again?

A. I have the map.

Q. Use the pointer and point it out for us.

A. [Indicates]

Q. Okay. You're pointing to the green circle between Suva Reka and Mamusa; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's the village.

Q. Thank you very much. Well, sir, did something happen on the morning of the 25th of March, 1999?

A. Yes, something did happen. We received orders to go to the village to cleanse it from civilians. That was issued by the colonel, by Colonel Delic to my commanders. I know that he issued that order.

Q. And how do you know that, sir?

A. Because in the army, as far as an operation is concerned, they ^{8238 BLANK PAGE 8239} don't really conceal very much, and every soldier knows about that, and every soldier knows why we came. So I knew all of that too.

Q. When an order is -- when an order is given in the army, is that order usually communicated to all soldiers, and if so, by whom?

A. Our company commanders transmit that. Actually -- how should I put this? Bozidar Delic, when he issues an order to a captain or to somebody that has an even lower rank, then that person issues orders to company commanders and platoon commanders, and then these company commanders and platoon commanders issue orders to us. And -- and when our commanders issued these orders to us, we went to the village together with them, and we started with the operation of cleansing the village.

Q. So these orders came down the chain of command. Is that basically what you're telling us, sir?

A. Yes. Yes, that's it.

Q. Well, sir, having heard that order, did something happen near Mamusa, near the village of Trnje that you've told us about?

A. Near the village of Trnje -- actually, we entered the village of Trnje. It was very close to us, this village. The army started killing civilians who were in the village. I personally saw that.

Q. Do you know why they did that, on whose order?

A. On the order -- I think on the order of Delic. I am not quite sure, but as soon as they were doing that, it must have been under those orders.

Q. Who was your company commander?

A. Are you referring to the battalion or the company or the group? ⁸²⁴⁰

Q. Well, perhaps you can give the chain. First of all, your immediate commander, the company commander, who was that?

A. Milan Nedeljkovic. He was my commander.

Q. And above him, who would that be?

A. Captain Pavle Gavrilovic.

Q. And did you hear anything from Gavrilovic? Do you know whether he gave any orders?

A. Yes. Yes. He issued the order for us to go into the village, and he was on the outskirts of the village. He remained on the outskirts of the village and we went. Oh, yes, he issued the order.

Q. What order was that?

A. To go to the village and to start cleansing it and to do our best not to keep anyone alive there.

Q. Now, did the soldiers, in fact, enter the village of Trnje?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you describe for the Court how -- what they did when they went into the village? Was it just one big group or did they break up into groups or how -- how did things happen?

A. There were several groups of the military, and they were all dispersed. There were three groups from -- amongst us. The first one left first, and then a second one left, and then a third one. That was the system of this action. This was at 8.00 in the morning when the village was attacked, and they started shooting, killing civilians, old men, women, children. I didn't see any young men there, men in general. I personally saw them killing people with my very own eyes. In some parts ⁸²⁴¹ I did not see them actually doing the killing, but I did see it in other parts, the army actually doing the killing.

Q. Tell us about the first incident where you saw people being killed.

A. The first incident was when the first group entered the village. Old women, three old women and two old men were running across a field. I saw that. Somebody shot at them from the houses, and I saw them falling into a ploughed field. That's the first incident I saw. The second incident was closer to me but I couldn't see it from the walls of the houses that Albanians build around their houses. Then I heard the screaming of women. I walked in. I saw some of my soldiers - I mean my comrades from the army - with an NCO. I did not exactly see whether they had killed them, but at any rate, I saw many dead bodies in the yard. So I approximately came to the conclusion as to how many there were there.

Q. And your approximation of how many dead bodies you saw in that compound? How many?

A. When I entered, I entered really fast because this was a very fast operation. So they had already finished as far as that place was concerned. And when I walked in, I saw many dead people. I saw some soldiers, and then we got out immediately so we would go to the second house and then to the third house. In the village, that is. I think that --

Q. I'm just going to ask you, are you able to give an approximation?

A. You mean of the dead bodies? ⁸²⁴²

Q. Yes. How many?

A. There was a big heap in one corner. I think about 15, something like that. I didn't really count them, but that's what it seemed like to me.

Q. And from what you saw in the pile of dead bodies, are you able to give the Court an indication as to age or sex or what kind of people they were?

A. It was mostly women and children.

Q. Did you see any very young children?

A. Yes, I did. In another house, I think I saw -- I did see a mother with a baby. The baby was shot in the head, and this also killed the mother.

Q. Now, sir, did you -- you told us you came upon this scene. There were some soldiers, comrades of yours, and a non-commissioned officer, and this pile of bodies. Did you subsequently find out by speaking to someone how it was that these dead bodies happened to be in that compound with these officers -- with the soldiers, sorry. Did they tell you what happened?

A. I didn't really talk. I talked to a soldier. His last name was Milosevic. He cried when they killed a woman, a good-looking woman. That's the only thing I saw. This soldier was sorry to have done that. He was sorry to have done anything to her. That's the only thing I talked about.

Q. Did he tell you how these people happened to die?

A. Yes. ⁸²⁴³

Q. What did he tell you?

A. He talked specifically about this case, about this female. This soldier who was close to him killed this female with a rifle. That's what he told me about.

Q. Sorry. I may have misdirected you to the incident that I'm interested in. You've told us earlier about a group that you approximate to be about 15 people in a compound. Did you find out how it was that those 15 people were killed? Sorry. I should have made that clear in my question.

A. I found out from the soldier that the non-commissioned officer who was with these soldiers gave an order, and he actually participated in the killing of these people too.

Q. Did he tell you how?

A. Simply they took them out of the houses, put them into the corner, into a corner, and they shot at all of them. All the soldiers who were there shot at them.

Q. Now, sir, you told us that after you went from one house, you'd go on to another house, and then on to another house; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Do I understand you to have said that the same sort of scene was repeated over and over again?

A. Yes, the same scene.

Q. Could you personally hear shooting coming from other areas in the village?

A. Yes. I heard shooting from many parts of the village. There was ⁸²⁴⁴ a great deal of shooting there.

Q. Do you know what, if anything, happened to the houses?

A. We would burn most of the houses. Even I was given an order to burn a house and a bus.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Yes. Yes, I did that.

Q. Who ordered you to do that?

A. Milan Nedeljkovic, Corporal Milan Nedeljkovic. I remember that scene very well.

Q. Describe to us how it is that you set fire to a house.

A. I had a cigarette lighter in my pocket. When we entered the house, he said to me that I should burn the house. I took a towel. The towel was dry. I set it on fire, and I held it in my hand until it was well on fire. And the house was made of wood, so I just threw this towel into the corner and the house caught fire immediately. As for the bus, I set fire only to one seat and then all the other seats were ablaze too. And the house burned down immediately as well. They had already gone to torch other houses.

Q. Sir, just to summarise this particular incident in Trnje, did you later on find out from the other soldiers about what they had done, and are you able to give the Court an estimate as to how many people were killed in Trnje during this cleansing operation, as you put it?

A. I did not find out how many people were killed, but I saw a great many people in that village. But I did not find out what the actual number was. ⁸²⁴⁵

Q. All right. Sir, how long did you stay in the area of Trnje?

A. Five days.

Q. And when the operation was over, do I understand you returned to Prizren?

A. Yes. We went back to Prizren, to the barracks, but we left the barracks straight away after that.

Q. When you got back to the barracks, had something happened to the barracks that made you leave it straight away?

A. Yes. The barracks were destroyed, completely destroyed, and there was nowhere we could sleep. And we didn't even dare sleep there either.

Q. Do you know how it was destroyed?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us.

A. NATO destroyed the barracks.

Q. As a result of that, what, if anything, did the soldiers who were normally headquartered at those barracks, what did you do? Where did you go?

A. We received orders that the first village below the barracks, we received orders to expel all the civilians living in that village -- well, it was a settlement really, not really a village. But that's what we did. And we went into the houses there, and that's where we lived for two and a half months.

Q. Upon your arrival in this -- back to Prizren where you took up residence in the houses, were you at one point ordered to collect a civilian truck? ⁸²⁴⁶

A. Yes. Yes, we were ordered. Not one order, several orders to that effect.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We went through that settlement. There were lots of trucks there and many vehicles that the civilians had left behind, and there was even a place where there were some civilians. That's where we took it from.

Q. Did you attend at a particular company who then provided you with a truck?

A. No. We did it all ourselves.

Q. All right. Where did you take the truck?

A. We took the truck for army purposes because we weren't allowed to use military vehicles ourselves. If we used military vehicles, NATO would have targeted us. But like this, the civilian vehicles were all right because NATO didn't want to target the civilian vehicles, so this was a sort of mask.

Q. Sir, this truck that you obtained, was there also a box in any of these procedures? Do you remember a large box, and if so, how did you come into possession of it?

A. That was a different truck. What you're mentioning now refers to a different truck.

Q. I'm sorry. I should have directed you to the truck I'm interested in. So you went and got a truck, a civilian truck, but on another occasion, did you end up getting a truck with a large box?

A. On the sixth day, when we returned to Prizren.

Q. Yes. ⁸²⁴⁷

A. I received orders from the commander, my commander, to go to the public Higijena Cleaning Company and take a civilian truck, which is what I did. I didn't know what the truck was for, but these people from the Higijena company or the cleaning company, they had placed a large box or large package in it. I didn't look to see what was inside, all I was told was where to take it to. And this particular truck was supposed to be used to load up all the dead bodies we found from the village of Trnje, and that's what we did.

Q. So did you take the truck to Trnje?

A. Yes. Yes, we took the truck to Trnje.

Q. And when you got to Trnje, did you in fact collect dead bodies and put them in the truck?

A. Yes. We collected a part of the dead bodies that we came across, whereas the rest, the other dead bodies, weren't found there. We didn't find them there.

Q. What dead bodies did you find, and what -- did you later find out what was in that box that you hadn't looked in?

A. Yes. When we were collecting up the dead bodies, we found the corpses that I saw had been killed, and we collected -- that is to say, in the box there were body bags, bags for dead bodies, and I was ordered to collect up dead bodies in the fields and to place them in these body bags. But we just found the bodies of five women, and we left the old people out in the fields. But we picked up the women, loaded them up onto the truck and drove them off to a hill where we buried them.

Q. All right. I'm interested in the location where you buried these ⁸²⁴⁸ people. You went from Trnje. How far away did you take these bodies and how did you get there?

JUDGE MAY: He refers to "they." It's not clear who he's referring to.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Q. You've told us you were ordered to go to this Higijena Cleaning Company. Were you alone or were you with other soldiers and were there a group of you?

A. I went to get the truck alone, but when I went there, one of the soldiers had to take me there in a car for me to get this. So in actual fact, I took the truck myself.

Q. And when you went to Trnje, were there other truckloads of soldiers coming with you, or were you by yourself, or what?

A. Yes. There were two military trucks. They were full of soldiers, and I was the driver of this one civilian truck where there were no soldiers. They served as an escort for me.

Q. And who actually loaded the bodies of these five women into the truck? Was that you personally or were these soldiers who were with you assisting you or were they the ones doing it and you were just driving? Tell us.

A. All the soldiers who were in the trucks, including myself. I took part in loading up the bodies. Some of the soldiers weren't able to look at these dead people, and they didn't even want to get close to them, but I could. I didn't mind doing that at all.

Q. So you loaded the bodies into the body bags, put them in the ⁸²⁴⁹ truck, and then you took them to this location you were about to tell us about. Briefly, sir, did you drive a long way or how did you know where to take them?

A. I didn't know where we were supposed to take them, but we took them towards Dragash.

Q. All right. And where, eventually, did you stop and bury the bodies? Can you tell us approximately what that location was?

A. On the map?

Q. Yes.

A. I could tell you on the map.

Q. Yes, please.

A. I can't tell you on the map. I can't show you that place there, but it was towards the Stojanovic watchtower, watch hut.

Q. And is that near a border of anything, sir?

A. Yes. It's between the border and Prizren.

Q. The border to where?

A. To Albania.

Q. Now, sir, just moving on, I understand that you took a somewhat circuitous route off the road; is that correct? You went off the main road onto a small dirt road; is that correct, sir?

A. Yes, that's correct. That was the road towards the Stojanovic watchtower. It was a macadamised road surface, not an asphalt road. The army, the soldiers who were with us, received orders from my commander to provide security around this locality, to prevent anybody from moving upwards the way we had gone. ⁸²⁵⁰ The second truck was full of soldiers, us soldiers, and they provided security for the area where we buried the dead. And --

Q. And was a grave dug? Was it a deep grave? Tell us about the burial itself, very briefly.

A. We dug a shallow grave in great haste, and we aligned all these five and buried them. And we made it look as if there was nothing there.

Q. Before leaving, did you mark the spot in any way?

A. Yes. I threw part of the motor, truck motor, there when nobody was looking.

Q. And were there any non-commissioned officers or officers with you at the time you did this?

A. Yes. There was my commander and two NCOs, and they killed those people.

Q. I'm sorry, that's not clear: Who killed what people?

A. The ones we had buried.

Q. Ah. So the people with you on the burial were the ones who killed the people who were being buried. Is that what you're telling us?

A. Yes.

Q. Very briefly, sir --

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm at paragraph 21.

Q. You've told us your main job was that of a chauffeur or a driver; is that correct? Did you ever chauffeur Gavrilovic's deputy?

A. Yes, I did. I drove him around, Gavrilovic's deputy.

Q. And did you ever go to Prizren? And if so, do you know the purpose of the trips to Prizren? ⁸²⁵¹

A. Well, I drove him mostly to meetings that Bozidar Delic ordered. They had to meet every evening.

Q. Would you wait for him to attend the meeting and then drive him home?

A. Yes. I didn't drive him home; I would drive him to our area.

Q. I'm sorry. That was an expression. You took him there and brought him back is what I meant. Is that what you did?

A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

Q. And on occasion, would you have a conversation with Gavrilovic's deputy about some of the things that may have gone on at those meetings?

A. Well, I didn't actually talk about the things that they were talking about, but I assumed. I was quite close to him, actually, so I was able to understand him and understand what he was saying and the whole story of what he was saying.

Q. As a result of the tidbits of information you obtained by chauffeuring this gentleman, did you know what was happening with respect to Albanians in Kosovo?

A. Could you repeat that question?

Q. As a result of what you learned by chauffeuring this gentleman around, did you form any conclusion about what was happening to the Albanians in Kosovo?

A. Yes. The Albanians in Kosovo, as far as I was able to understand from the stories he told, the plan was to expel all the Albanians from Kosovo so that none of them should remain there, as far as I was able to gather from what he said. ^{8252 BLANK PAGE 8253}

Q. Was that fact ever discussed among your fellow soldiers in barracks and places like that?

A. Yes.

Q. Sir, do you know what happened to the Albanian refugees at the border, and if so, what do you know and how do you know it?

A. At the border crossing of Vrbnica, the Albanians would mostly cross over that border, and the policemen who were there would take away the documents from the Albanians and they would send them to Albania, whereas the documents that were confiscated were set fire to on the spot straight away.

Q. Do you know why they did that? Were they under the orders or was this on their own initiative or -- do you know?

A. Yes, they had orders.

Q. Do you know why they took the documents away?

A. So that in case these people came back, that they would have no proof of ever having lived there.

Q. I see. Now, sir, you were -- you've told us about getting trucks and things like that. You're a driver. Were you aware of any theft of vehicles, and if so, were you involved in any?

A. Yes. There was a lot of theft of vehicles. Actually, it wasn't theft. Well, it was done on purpose. The vehicles would be taken away from the people, mostly vehicles -- heavy-duty vehicles to be used by the army later on, and I took part in a great many of them, of these thefts.

Q. How? Did you get the keys from the people or how were you able to make the vehicles go? ⁸²⁵⁴

A. Well, mostly we took cars where there were no people, where the people had been expelled. So we couldn't -- we didn't have the keys. And we would break down the locks and use wires to ignite them, to set the engines running.

Q. I see. Now, you've told us about trucks. How about cars? Were any cars hot-wired in the same way, and for what purpose?

A. Yes. Many good cars were stolen, too, which the officers used to go to their meetings in and for their own personal use too.

Q. And finally, sir, I understand that you left Kosovo on the 6th of June; is that correct?

A. Yes. I left on the 6th of June. I left because I asked -- if you want me to tell you why I asked to leave?

Q. Please.

A. I asked to leave so that I should not take any property from Albanian houses to officers' homes in Serbia. I didn't want to do that, to take out things from the Albanian houses and fetch and carry for the officers, because the officers would take things away from the Albanian houses which were well-furnished, well-supplied, and they used that property later on.

Q. On the 6th of June, was that just before the VJ evacuation of Kosovo?

A. Yes. Six days before the end of the bombing and the withdrawal of the army.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I've already dealt with paragraph 25, so those are my questions for the witness. Thank you. ⁸²⁵⁵

Q. Thank you, Witness.

JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination after the adjournment. Witness K32, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you remember in this and any other adjournment there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] First of all, some general facts. Let's take a look at those particulars. You just wrote that you were a Muslim by religion. What is your ethnicity?

A. I'm a Bosniak.

Q. A Bosniak. You say that your current profession is driver. Where do you work? You don't have to tell us the town.

A. In Yugoslavia.

Q. So you're working privately, are you, as a private driver?

A. Yes.

Q. From what it says in your statement, you were an army deserter; is that right?

A. Yes. But I didn't flee from the army. I was released from the army as an award, but I decided not to go back to the army, and your army treated that as being desertion, so I was treated as a deserter. ⁸²⁵⁶

Q. Well, that's not -- I'm not contesting that, I'm just reading from your statement where you say, "I went back to Montenegro but my father and I decided that I wouldn't go back to Kosovo." And then you say: "The whole town was against us going back."

A. Yes.

Q. "I decided to desert, and I spent the next three months at home." That's what you say.

[redacted]

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[redacted]

Q. I see. So that's why you asked for protective measures?

A. And they're extremely --

JUDGE MAY: No need --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And there is --

JUDGE MAY: There is no need for you to answer these questions. Mr. Milosevic, get on to something else.

MR. RYNEVELD: And I wonder whether perhaps we could redact the location he just referred to.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that the town was excluded, that we weren't allowed to mention the town either, that it ⁸²⁵⁷ is restricted information. I just thought this referred to the name and surname and voice and image of this person.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But tell me, please, as you have been accusing your commanders a great deal here, Colonel Bozidar Delic, a case in point, and you say on many occasions what you allegedly heard and saw, do you, as a military deserter, consider that this hatred of yours and the shame and the time you spent in prison you owe to Colonel Delic or to your own conduct and behaviour?

A. I don't owe it to my conduct or my behaviour or Colonel Delic -- I'm not sure I understood your question. Could you repeat it?

Q. I asked you whether these feelings of yours, your sentiments as a deserter from the army, because quite obviously you have been speaking a great deal about Colonel Delic, do you consider that this hatred that you feel and the shame you spent -- the shame of the time you spent in prison and your desertion and anything, was that due to Colonel Delic or to your own behaviour and conduct?

A. Neither. I don't owe that to either Colonel Delic or my own conduct and behaviour.

Q. Now, in view of these undoubted feelings that you have towards that brigade commander in particular, and in view of your conduct when you deserted --

JUDGE MAY: What feelings? Now, you cannot misrepresent the evidence. He said he didn't owe it to Colonel Delic. It's you are saying he has ill feelings towards the colonel. If you want to represent that to ⁸²⁵⁸ him, you must ask him, "Do you harbour ill feelings towards Colonel Delic?" if that's your case. But you can't simply represent it as something that's a fact when it's not been established.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as far as I understand it, this protected witness is protected with respect to his name, his image, and voice, but he's not protected from my questions. So my question was as follows: In view of this relationship that you had --

JUDGE MAY: What relationship? Mr. Milosevic, I'm not going to allow you to misrepresent evidence and to ask questions which are not allowed and are not fair. Now, if you are going to -- if you want to represent that this witness is giving evidence about Colonel Delic because he feels some form of vengeance against him, then you must put it to the witness so that he can answer it. What you can't do is to represent something as a fact which you've not put it. But since you won't do it, I will.

What is said, Witness K32, is you are not telling the truth about Colonel Delic because you harbour some feelings of vengeance against him because you were locked up as a deserter. Now, is there any truth in that or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not here to take vengeance on Delic. I don't hate Delic at all. I came here for other reasons. My feelings towards Delic -- I mean, there is not the tiniest bit of hatred towards him. After all, I know what kind of a man Delic is. And he's not the one who locked me up in prison. It was other units that did.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁸²⁵⁹

Q. All right. Before that, you were in that unit, and you returned to the same unit; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You started your testimony by testifying about your stay in the village of Damjane where you say that you spent two and a half months within the second combat group. On the map, it is evident that the village of Damjane is just by the state border towards Albania. Is that right?

So do you know that at the time when you were there, there were many incursions by groups of Albanian terrorists across the border of the Republic of Albania into the territory of our country? Armed groups that were carrying out acts of terrorism, and armed groups that, in addition to committing acts of terrorism, smuggled large quantities of weapons from Albania. Are you aware of that?

A. I am aware that these people were killed on Albanian territory, those who allegedly tried to cross the border, because our army had already moved two kilometres into Albanian territory. I know that for sure because there was no Albanian army on the border, so I know that they could ambush them there. I know there were ambushes and everything.

Q. As far as ambushes are concerned, in defending one's border, ambushes are a legitimate form of defending one's borders. I imagine that is clear to you.

A. I don't know about that, whether they were legitimate, because if they were legitimate, then I think that the people who live in Kosovo would know about that. ⁸²⁶⁰

Q. Well, you see, you are probably unaware of this, but I have to put this to you in the form of a question. It relates to an event that occurred when about 150 members of the KLA crossed the border with large quantities of weapons. They entered an ambush. Quite a few of them were killed in the ambush. Some were arrested. The others escaped. Even the OSCE said this was a legitimate ambush in defending the border. Are you aware of that?

A. No, I'm not aware of that.

Q. All right. Let's go on, because I imagine that my time will be limited, but that's only tomorrow.

When you arrived in the village of Damjane, there were civilians there, the local population; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is in the immediate vicinity of the border. You say in your statement that Delic said, and you actually quoted him: "Get rid of these civilians from this village. It doesn't matter where they'll go. They can't stay here any more."

Now, I'm asking you, since this is at the border where things that we mentioned had been happening, did he order the civilians to be removed so that they would be taken out of the zone of combat operations so as not to come in the way of combat operations or, rather, so that they would not be jeopardised by the combat operations, that they would not be wounded or killed or have something happen to them?

A. I did not quote Bozidar Delic as you just said this. I quoted a soldier, a friend of mine, who heard him personally say that civilians ⁸²⁶¹ should be expelled from their houses.

As for why they were being expelled from their houses, the army -- the army, I think, thought that these villagers that lived there might attack them. It's not for the safety of the citizens. Civilians could not be safe there at any rate because soldiers were shooting every night, so they had to leave anyway. They were shooting at these houses.

Q. All right. But I asked you whether that means that Delic ordered civilians to be removed from the zone of combat operations.

A. Yes.

Q. That is quite clear.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down for the interpretation. They're being overlapped.

JUDGE MAY: Both of you are being asked to slow down for the interpretation.

Witness K32, it's difficult for you, you're not used to giving evidence, but could you remember that this has got to be interpreted, so when you've heard the question, just pause a minute and let the interpreters finish and then answer.

Mr. Milosevic, you know this already.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. At that time, that is to say when civilians were removed from the zone of combat operations, did anybody maltreat these civilians? Did anybody kill any one of these civilians?

A. There was no killing, but there was maltreatment.

Q. What kind of maltreatment? Could you please be so kind as to ⁸²⁶² describe that?

A. In neighbouring villages where the army would go to the shops, they would take everything without paying for it. Then also if they would catch someone, they would interrogate him real well. They would even slap him around a bit, regardless of whether this person would be young or old.

Q. All right. Did you personally see somebody entering a shop?

A. Yes.

Q. Taking goods and not paying for these goods?

A. Yes, I did see that.

Q. Did you do that too?

A. I did that too, because I cannot separate myself from my comrades.

Q. Tell me, where were your positions, in the village itself or near it?

A. These are villages -- or, rather, this village is scattered about, so it was not a densely populated village. I mean, if you're referring to the village itself. All the houses were abandoned and the army lived in the houses.

Q. I didn't really understand what you were saying.

A. The houses were abandoned, and the army slept there.

Q. They slept in abandoned houses?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. What about the positions? The positions were outside the village?

A. No, no. Also there.

JUDGE MAY: Now, you've both been told to slow down.

JUDGE KWON: Just a minute, Mr. Milosevic. ⁸²⁶³ Witness K32, I notice that you just said that you also took the goods without paying, from the shop. Is that correct?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

JUDGE KWON: Were you told to do so from your superiors?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Actually, when my comrades did that -- I mean, I didn't want to separate myself from my comrades in any way, so all of us together acted that way.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. We heard about what you said, that you heard from a soldier about Delic's order. What was the name of this soldier who heard this order of Delic's?

A. I can't tell you that.

Q. What is that? You can't remember?

A. I can't remember this very incident because it has been four years now, four and a half. How long has it been?

Q. All right. So you are quoting in your statement. You say that you cannot remember?

A. Yes.

Q. And you gave the statement in April 2002, on the 25th and 26th. So there is a very small time difference.

A. But in the statement, I didn't mention the soldier's name.

Q. I'm not saying that you mentioned the soldier's name, but you say that you cannot remember that. So as a matter of fact, you are quoting.

A. No.

Q. But you are quoting Delic's alleged words after four years, and ⁸²⁶⁴ you never actually heard them; right? And these words were conveyed to you by a soldier whose name you do not remember; is that right?

A. I do not remember the name.

JUDGE MAY: Wait a minute. Right.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember the name, because he was not a close friend. It's not that we were together all the time. So there was a lot of soldiers there who were deployed there, and I brought them food and water, and they all knew me very well. As I was distributing food, I even had time to chat with people.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So this was a close friend of yours.

A. No, this was not a close friend of mine, but I know that the man is from Vranje.

Q. All right. Tell me, when the civilians left the area, you say that no one was killed, no one was shot at, no one was wounded.

A. No, no, no, no one was.

Q. Do you know where they went from that area? Do you know anything about that?

A. No. No, I don't. I think they went to stay with their relatives, in Djakovica or wherever people may have had relatives. Perhaps in a village or whatever.

Q. You assume that they went to stay with relatives in other places?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. All right. On page 3, paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that you remember that an officer took a sequestered truck to a civilian house ⁸²⁶⁵ and things were loaded into this truck from that house and they were driven to Serbia. That's what you say. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw that personally?

A. Yes. I saw them carrying TV sets, video recorders, et cetera, from the houses.

Q. Who was that officer?

A. For the most part, it was the chief officers in that combat group where we were deployed.

Q. All right. You say that you remember an officer.

A. No.

Q. You said you saw that. So since you know these chief officers, please give all their names in order. Who is the officer who did that?

A. Mr. Milosevic, officers changed every ten days, so if I could remember all their names and surnames, it would really be a good thing.

Q. All right. But you claim that in your brigade, officers changed every ten days.

A. Yes, ten.

Q. What was that?

A. Every ten days or every week, it depended. And it wasn't only lieutenant colonels who took concerns. Also majors, captains perhaps. At any rate, people knew who the commanding officer was.

Q. All right. That assertion that officers changed, took turns every ten days in your brigade.

Now, tell me, on page 3, paragraph 4, you say that your combat ^{8266 BLANK PAGE 8267} group, between August 1st and 3rd, was involved in a mop-up operation; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, what is this mop-up operation? What were you mopping up? Which terrain? And since you say that you were moving along the road between Djakovica and Klina --

A. Yes. We left Djakovica and moved for about 15 kilometres, and then we started mopping up these villages. I did not take part in the mop-up, but I was distributing water, because of course, the army needed water. So I was within that establishment too, or, rather, within that column.

Q. What is this mop-up? What is this?

A. Milosevic, mop-up is when the army starts killing the civilians there. And they thought that there were terrorists there. And I heard that there were terrorists there.

JUDGE MAY: Witness K24 [sic], Mr. Milosevic -- 32. "Mr. Milosevic" here. You're in a court.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise if I made some kind of a mistake.

JUDGE MAY: No need to apologise. But best of all, don't -- although the accused is asking the questions, direct your answers towards the Court rather than having a discussion with him. I know it's difficult to do that, but if you remember you're answering to the Court, it would make it easier.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁸²⁶⁸

Q. All right. During this examination-in-chief, at one point you said -- I will find that quotation of yours if necessary, but you will remember that you said that that meant eliminating terrorists and removing civilians from that zone. Not killing civilians, removing civilians. And now you are saying that this mop-up meant killing civilians.

A. That went without saying.

Q. Why do you think that that went without saying, that mopping up meant killing civilians?

A. Mr. Milosevic, when the army sets out, it doesn't look whether there are terrorists there or not. Everybody is involved. I was there. You were not there. You should have come there. You should have seen it.

Q. All right. You were moving from Djakovica to Klina along the road there in a column. Did I understand this correctly? How were you going? I mean, were you driving a truck?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you, towards the end of the column? Because you were in the supplies division.

A. I was at the beginning, the second or the third vehicle, and Delic was the first one.

Q. So with your supply vehicle, you were right behind the commander's vehicle.

A. Yes.

Q. So what were you driving, then?

A. If I say so -- well, it doesn't matter. It was a military vehicle that I was driving. Never mind. Never mind. It was a water truck. ⁸²⁶⁹

Q. A water truck with fuel?

A. With water.

Q. Oh, I see, with water.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if I might just interject. The cross-examination appears to be being taken directly from the statement, and some of the cross-examination appears to be talking about nuances of what is in the statement and what is not. Would the Court like to follow along with the statement and determine later on whether or not it ought to be marked as an exhibit?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have the statement. I've certainly got a copy. We have copies of it already.

MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that the Court had that. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did I understand it correctly that the infantry were at the end of the column? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, then. What was this mopping up and who did the mopping up if the infantry was at the tail end of the column?

A. Well, the column -- there were 11 or 12 trucks to the column. It's not a kilometre in length, it's --

Q. All right. On that occasion, were there any attacks on your combat group by the KLA?

A. No.

Q. Were you in a position to witness any attack by the KLA on your ⁸²⁷⁰ combat group, on part of your combat group, on members of your combat group in the broadest sense?

A. No. I'm not a witness to that, nor did I ever see a KLA soldier attack during that offensive in the course of those days.

Q. Well, when did you see KLA soldiers?

A. I just saw dead KLA soldiers in the barracks. That's the only time I saw members of the KLA in uniform. The ones that you said a moment ago were killed at the border and were brought in from the border region to the barracks, that was the first time that I saw any KLA soldiers.

Q. So you never had -- there was never any fighting. You never fought any KLA members.

A. Just one. But when it comes to civilian clothing and people in civilian clothing, I can't really say if they were soldiers or not. But, yes, there were alleged fighting, but we would usually come across hunting rifles with those people. So there wasn't any heavy weaponry or anything like that.

Q. Well, what kind of KLA weapons did you see and find, KLA ones, apart from the hunting rifles?

A. Well, we'd come across hunting rifles. We would find those. And, for example, in one particular village, I found a new hunting rifle myself. And what can you do with a hunting rifle? Nothing. All he can do is wound me.

Q. All right. On page 3, paragraph 5, you claim that your combat group along the way captured two Albanians who were armed with automatic rifles. Is that correct? ⁸²⁷¹

A. We did capture two Albanians, that's right, but I didn't see their rifles at all. The soldier I gave water to, well, he told me this story, that they had come across these people, that they were armed, that they interrogated them, that they told them everything and then cut off their ears and killed them straight away, as soon as they cut their ears off.

Q. Let's just clarify one point. It says here on page 3: "My combat group managed to capture two Albanians in a cornfield along the way and they were treated as being members of the KLA, Liberation Army of Kosovo, and most probably that's what they were. I heard that they were wearing civilian clothing and that they were armed with automatic weapons but that they did not shoot at us. They questioned them for two minutes, and then they shot at them in the nape of the neck. I heard that a soldier who was responsible for their killing, et cetera, et cetera, they left the bodies by the roadside, and I heard over the radio an invitation for the coroner's truck to come in from Djakovica." You later saw two Gypsies collecting up the bodies.

So you saw these bodies, did you?

A. Yes, I saw them.

Q. Very well, then. How can you say that you heard they were wearing civilian clothing and not say that you saw them in civilian clothing? If you saw them, you must have seen whether they were wearing civilian clothes or not. Why do you say, "I heard they were wearing civilian clothes"?

A. Mr. Milosevic, perhaps I didn't remember saying I heard them having civilian clothing but I did see those civilians with my own eyes. ⁸²⁷² And I heard from the soldiers. I heard that from the soldiers. Perhaps when they were making their statements, they wrote it down wrongly. So when I talked to this soldier, I asked him, "What's this here?" And he told me everything. He told me about the whole situation, what had happened. And he heard over radio communication, or, rather, he told me that they used the radio to call in the coroner's van.

Q. All right. So you, then, saw two Albanians who were loaded up by these coroners who had come from Djakovica.

A. Yes, I watched that for two hours.

Q. Right. But you saw them, you saw them lying on the ground, and you saw them being loaded up. But you weren't present when they were killed, and you don't actually know how they were killed.

A. That's right, I don't, but I heard how they were killed.

Q. Oh, you heard how they were killed?

A. Yes, right on the spot where I saw them dead, that's where.

Q. Did you see what they looked like? Did you see their wounds?

A. Yes, I did. I saw that they had no ears, and one of them was face down on his stomach on the ground, and I saw this horrible wound in the nape of his neck, and it looked awful.

Q. All right. You even state the name of the person responsible for that. Did you see the officer whom you mention killing these two men?

JUDGE MAY: Just pause. The witness's evidence was that he hadn't, that he heard this. That's what he said. Yes, if you want to add something.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The officer who did this, whom I ⁸²⁷³ saw, was the only one who had a pistol on him, and the shooting was done from a pistol, and it was a Colt. I know that for a fact. And I saw the soldier pointing to it, although I can't remember the name and surname of that officer. He wasn't my superior, my commanding officer. He was from quite a different unit. He was an infantryman and I was in a different unit altogether.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. This is the first I've heard that officers of the Yugoslav army use Colts as weapons. As far as I know, they use pistols produced in Yugoslavia. That is the standard issue type of weapon. Where did he have this Colt?

A. He had a really nice pistol, this Colt which was attached to his belt, a big Colt one, with that round barrel thing.

Q. So the officer had non-standard issue weapon; is that right?

A. Well, how should I know whether it was standard issue or not.

Q. All right. Tell me this, then, because we've established this point: When you were moving from Djakovica to Klina, there were no KLA attacks on you, were there?

A. No, there weren't.

Q. Right. Now, how do you know that these two Albanians spoke about the existence of KLA trenches somewhere and that they said that there were about 200 KLA members in those trenches? How do you come to know that?

A. The soldiers who arrested them in the cornfield, they brought them down there where I brought water for them to drink, and the soldier that I supplied with water, he told me the whole story, and I was interested in ⁸²⁷⁴ knowing. I asked him about it, and he told me the whole story, just how it was.

Q. All right. So you weren't there when they were questioned, but the soldier you gave some water to told you what they had said, that they had said that there were trenches in the vicinity and that there were 200 KLA members there?

A. Well, he didn't say the exact number of KLA members. I'm not quite sure he said KLA, but he said that there was a trench 200 metres long and that there were people up there who were still in the trench.

Q. You say here what I maintain. During their interrogation, they told of a 250-metre KLA trench and there were 200 people there. So it wasn't 200 metres, it was 200 people and 250 metres. That's what you say in your statement. So is that correct what you wrote down here in the statement?

A. Yes, that's correct. That's approximate, but the statement's correct.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. K32, I have to emphasise again, because two of you speak the same language, so it's very difficult to follow, for the interpreters to follow you, so could you put a pause between the question and answer.

Yes. Yes, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 3, paragraph 6 of your statement, you say the following: That only -- "I was only about ten metres away from Colonel Delic, and so I heard him clearly issue orders." You said this during your testimony ⁸²⁷⁵ here this morning as well, when questioned. "I heard him order the tank driver to turn its gun around and point to a designated house in the village," and the house was some 15 kilometres away from Djakovica -- the village was.

Now, tell me, how did you happen to hear that? Was Delic standing next to the tank or how? Where was he? Where was he when he issued this order to the tank driver?

A. Delic was at the head of the column. He was the first man moving along in a small jeep. The tank was the second vehicle in order, right after him. The column was moving slowly. He stopped at one point and stopped the column too. And then he looked towards the houses. So we all got out. I got out too. If there was an attack of any kind, not to enter. I was in the third vehicle from the tank. So it was very close by. And I was watching him carefully, and I saw him looking towards the house and then told the tank to turn the gun around, and that's what the tank driver did, and then he targeted the house. And you could see that house very well. It was clearly visible.

The first shell that hit the house, well, nothing happened after that. Then he waited awhile, a short while, maybe about five minutes, and we were all standing around, watching, when he gave his second order and said, "Fire again. Fire another one." And when the second shell hit, the civilians started leaving the houses. And I could see this very well. Some of them were wearing white. There was a woman with a white piece of cloth like the Albanian women wear. And I saw two children as well. They were running behind the house towards the woods. And then he gave the ⁸²⁷⁶ next order. He gave this order to some of the infantrymen and said, "You take that route. You go the other way, and we'll meet up." And he showed this on the map. And he said, "Start the mopping up."

Q. And this is all that you heard Delic say? You heard him say all that, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. How you heard him issue the order to the tank driver and all the rest of it?

A. Yes. He was three metres away from the tank.

Q. Tell me this now --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop. Yes. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you know, the crew, the tank crew, wears caps. They are equipped with radio transmitters. They have headsets on their ears that are built into these special tank caps, tank crew caps. So Delic didn't order them to do this either via the radio or using the standard procedure and equipment, but he was standing near the tank, and he shouted this out to them and they acted upon his orders. How can you command a tank in that way?

A. Every tank has its commander. Every commander or leader has on the turret a place where he stands, the tank turret and his position, and there are three soldiers in the tank listening to his orders. That means that from this turret or hole in the turret, of course he can hear him, he can tell him. And Delic was saying this to the person in charge in the tank. ⁸²⁷⁷

Q. All right. So this seems to be a very specific way of command that you saw.

At the beginning when I asked you where you yourself were, whether you were at the head or the tail end of the column, you said you were right behind Delic's vehicle.

A. That's right.

Q. Now you said that behind Delic's vehicle, the jeep, there was a tank and that you were the tank -- third vehicle from the tank. That's what you just said.

Now, when were you say -- telling the truth, five minutes ago when you said you were straight behind Delic's vehicle or now when --

JUDGE MAY: No. You're not going to confuse the witness in this way.

No. There's no need to answer that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He can't confuse me, because Delic's was the only vehicle that could move around freely, round about the column. So at one point, he took the lead, bypassed the column, and his was the only vehicle that was allowed to move alongside the column. So at one point he bypassed the whole column, took a detour and came up at the head of the column and stopped the column quite normally. And it's not important. A truck can break down, for example. And so the one that was fourth in line might come up third in line. That kind of thing happened. And when I was on my way back, I was the second vehicle in line after the tank on our way back, when we returned from the village. So this particular order wasn't important. But I was very close ⁸²⁷⁸ by.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, then. What was the village's name?

A. Meqe.

Q. What did you say?

A. Meqe.

Q. I see. Mece. Is that right up at the porter?

A. No. We're talking about the village that lies between Djakovica and Klina.

Q. Djakovica and Klina, you say?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. You say that the tank fired at the house twice. Was the house hit on both occasions?

A. Yes, because Colonel Delic emphasised that they should take careful aim to ensure that they hit their target and not miss.

Q. Was there any specific thing in that house, anything special?

A. No. I didn't notice anything special there, nor did I see any kind of trenches or anything around the house. Nothing special. It was an ordinary house just like any other. And there was even smoke coming out of the chimney.

Q. Did you have an explanation as to why he wanted to target that particular house?

A. No, I didn't. I was surprised why he wanted that particular house targeted.

Q. And do you consider that a soldier ought to be informed of every ⁸²⁷⁹ detail and have all information available to him, like the commander?

A. No. A soldier is a soldier. He doesn't have to know everything.

Q. Well, then, perhaps the commander might have had some other --

A. I didn't hear the rest of your question.

JUDGE MAY: You didn't hear it because --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was switched off.

JUDGE MAY: I switched it off for the interpreters. Now, Mr. Milosevic, the next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I don't know whether you understood my question. Do you suppose that a brigade commander has information -- do you think that he might have had information of this house being a legitimate military target?

A. Well, perhaps he did have special information, separate information that there were terrorists there, perhaps, but quite obviously they weren't there when I was there.

Q. Now, from that village -- tell me this: From that village on that occasion, did anybody open fire on you?

A. No.

Q. Not even after this shooting?

A. No.

Q. But you claim that Delic ordered the infantries to take to the woods and clean the area up of terrorists.

A. Well, I didn't hear him say "terrorists," but he said to clear it up.

Q. During this morning's testimony, at one point you mentioned ^{8280 BLANK PAGE 8281} terrorists.

A. Perhaps. I can't remember now.

Q. I understood you to say during your testimony today that the goal was, the target was, or the object was to neutralise the terrorists.

A. What did you say?

Q. To neutralise the terrorists. Yes or no.

A. I don't know what you mean by --

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. We'll check and see whether any mention of terrorists was made.

Mr. Ryneveld, can you help us out? My note, certainly in relation to Mece, has no mention of terrorists, merely that Delic ordered the group to stop and ordered the tank to fire a shell at the house, which was fired. I don't remember any reference to mopping up terrorists. He ordered the infantry to start mopping up, and they started the operation.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That, I believe, was in response to the questions in chief. In fairness, I would refer you to the English version of the statement, page 3, second paragraph from the bottom, with the words starting: "Delic got on the radio..." And in fairness to the cross-examination, the remainder of that sentence does refer to "and search out terrorists." So I think it's legitimate cross-examination, but I don't recall the witness using that phraseology in evidence, although he may have.

JUDGE MAY: I don't recollect it myself. I have no note of it. But the statement, now you refer me to it, thank you, says: "Delic got on the radio and ordered our infantry to move up on foot into the forest and ⁸²⁸² clean up and search out terrorists. When he said clean up the area, I understood the order meant they were to go up there and kill them all."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I hope that we've clarified this, because that's what it says in the statement in Serbian at the end of page 3. Slightly changed in relation to what the interpretation we heard now said. "Delic, via radio -- Delic got on the radio and ordered our infantry to move up on foot into the house and clean up."

A. No. He showed it this way with his hand. What we heard was radio communication with other units.

Q. All right. Now I'm --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld has a point. Yes?

MR. RYNEVELD: Although my recollection has failed me, our case manager has found a note in the transcript and it appears that at line 11:06:57 starting at 47:

Q. When you say start their operation, did he tell them what to do?

A. To start the mop-up operation, that's understood.

Q. What did you understand that order to mean to you?

A. I understood it to mean that the terrorists should be killed. Well, I didn't understand whether it applied to civilians too.

That is my -- that is what I understand was in the transcript this morning. In order to be completely frank with the Court in response to the question, that's what we found. ⁸²⁸³

JUDGE MAY: So there was a reference to terrorists, but it was to what the witness himself thought not to what Delic said.

MR. RYNEVELD: Correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object, Mr. May. When it says here, "Delic ordered the infantry to go into the forest and clean up and search out terrorists," that's not what he heard, that's what he thought.

JUDGE MAY: Look, there are two different points. One is what the witness said here this morning and the other is what he said in his statement. We've now got it clarified which is which. But I will ask the witness this: Your statement says that - you've heard it read out - that Delic ordered the infantry to move up on foot and clean up and search out terrorists. Did Delic, in fact, mention the terrorists, since that's what you say in your statement?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not mention terrorists, but he just ordered the clean-up to start. And all the army thought that that is what was meant. That is what we all understood. Somebody had perhaps heard that there were terrorists there, and we were all guessing. It's not that I can say that I knew for sure that there were terrorists there. I don't know.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. The army, the soldiers as the executors, understood the order of the commander to clean up the forest from terrorists, to find terrorists; is that right? ⁸²⁸⁴

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, which terrorists? If you claim that it was only civilians that were in the village.

A. Which terrorists? Is that your question, which terrorists?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, for the most part they thought they were Albanian terrorists, KLA, but in such a big offensive that there was not a single one, not a single soldier of the KLA, that they did not capture a single one, that's something I don't remember. I never heard of that either. That is to say that if there were any terrorists, I would have heard about it, but there wasn't a single one. So there was an offensive, some people were killed, but no one was wearing a uniform.

Q. So you did not see, throughout the time you spent in Kosovo, you did not see anyone wear a KLA uniform; is that right?

A. Yes. I did, actually, a woman in barracks at the border when you said that they were captured out there. It was at that time. I just saw that uniform in passing.

Q. All right. Since you were a truck driver, did you take part in this operation of mopping up, as you called it, to go into the forest and find the terrorists?

A. No.

Q. You stayed by your vehicle?

A. Yes. We were in the houses that had been abandoned. That's where we slept.

Q. In your statement, you do not refer to this operation of mopping ⁸²⁸⁵ up at all. Were there any casualties?

A. I know that a civilian policeman had been wounded.

Q. What does that mean, "civilian policeman"?

A. On the third day in the afternoon, when there was some attack, three shots were heard, and then everybody shot in one direction. Now, how this policeman was wounded, I didn't see that, but I did see that he had been wounded and he was transferred immediately too.

Q. You didn't understand my question. I don't know what it means when you say "civilian policeman." Are you referring to a member of the regular police rather than the military police?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. So you are referring to a policeman.

A. Yes, yes.

JUDGE MAY: Just pause. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. How much time did you spend in this brigade that was commanded by Delic? You spent several months there; right?

A. Almost a year.

Q. A year. Do you have any knowledge about how many members of that brigade were killed in fighting in Kosovo?

A. The last I knew at the time of the bombing and at the time when there was no bombing, most soldiers got killed by mistakes made by the military itself. The army was not properly equipped, and it was due to the army that the soldiers lost their lives.

During the bombing, it would happen that our soldiers would enter ⁸²⁸⁶ our own minefield, that our officers would not even have the plan of the mine layout, and our soldiers could not get out. So that's how our soldiers lost their lives. And the police, they did lose their lives, but I don't know how.

Q. All right. Do you claim that none of the soldiers from your brigade, or, rather, from the unit that you were in was not killed in fighting with the KLA?

A. None were -- yes. I'm sorry. It would happen, before the bombing, that an officer might get killed. There were some skirmishes when I was away for three months. I know that some officers were killed. But again, I cannot say who killed them because I don't know. But they were killed in some skirmishes.

Q. And these soldiers, members of your unit who were killed, you claim that they were killed from their own gunfire, the gunfire of their own comrades because of poor organisation, et cetera.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that what you are asserting?

A. Yes. Poor organisation. Poor organisation all over.

Q. All right. And you stated that, from there, you went to a village that was about three to five kilometres away from there. What was the name of that village?

A. Rakovica. That's where I spent two nights in an abandoned house that hadn't even been completed yet.

Q. You said that in that village, there were houses that were burning; is that right? As you were getting closer to the village, these ⁸²⁸⁷ houses were burning?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. All right. Now, tell me, what was the reason? Why were the houses burning? Did you come to that village after a skirmish between the KLA and the police, after a battle waged by a unit, or is it just a case of someone lighting these houses?

A. We found the police there. That is to say I don't know whether there was any fighting there. I know that we found the police there, though. And I think that they were the ones who torched the houses.

Q. And did you try to find anything out, whether there was any fighting in the village between the members of the police and the KLA?

A. No.

Q. All right. You say, then, after that, then, that night, as you say, there was an exchange of gunfire between the members of the special units of the police and someone?

A. Yes.

Q. That came from the forest, so you assumed it was the KLA?

A. Maybe yes, maybe no, I didn't see who it was.

Q. Who could it be shooting at the police, then?

A. That I don't know. I know we were shooting at a hill. All the guns were pointing at that hill, and even a tank was used. It was a small hill. I don't know. I don't know who was there, and I don't know where the gunshots came from, because you can't really tell. I don't know. I was not in a position. I mean, I really don't know where it came from because I was in a house, in a house underneath the road, and this hill ⁸²⁸⁸ was above the road. And I was watching that hill from the window precisely at that time.

Q. All right. And then you noticed that a policeman was killed while he stood on the bridge?

A. Yes, yes. He was not killed, though. He was wounded. At any rate, he fell. I didn't even see him get wounded. But there was shooting so that he would be saved. So there was shooting, and he lay on the bridge. So the other policemen were trying to get him out. And then he crawled all the way to the other policemen. That is to say, he went back.

Q. What do you mean he went back? This other policeman who tried to get him out returned?

A. No, no. When there was shooting, the policemen who were going towards him, they were shooting in some direction while he was crawling towards them from the bridge. So he was going towards the end of the bridge where the policemen were. And who shot at him, that I don't know.

Q. Let's clarify one thing. At page 4, at the end of the second paragraph, you say that you did not see who was being shot at, and now I'm quoting you: "We were only shooting in the direction where the gunfire came from."

A. No, not in the direction from where the gunfire came from. In the direction of the hill from where, allegedly, they were shooting at us. Perhaps in the statement they didn't understand what I was saying or something.

Q. I don't know how they understood you, but I didn't understand any of what you've been saying, in terms of what you have been stating. ⁸²⁸⁹ However, since I've learned to read, it says here: "One could not see where we were shooting at. We were only shooting in the direction where the gunfire was coming from."

A. Well, perhaps I said in the direction where the gunfire was coming from. Well, "gunfire" and "shooting" is the same thing for me, so shooting perhaps came from that hill. So I suppose that's where it was. And that's what I stated.

Q. All right. All right. All right. Did you shoot too? Because you said, "We were shooting."

A. Yes, yes.

Q. So you had a double role; you were a truck driver and an infantryman.

A. Yes, yes.

Q. The next day, you went home on leave.

A. No. I was in barracks the next day. That evening, we were returned to barracks in -- early in the morning, and the next day home.

Q. All right. And then you and your father decided you shouldn't go back to your unit any more; is that right?

A. No, not then, when I came home.

Q. When you came home and when you saw your father, because your father was not with you in Kosovo; is that right?

A. Yes. I returned home. We gave this a good thought, and then that's it.

[redacted]

[redacted] ⁸²⁹⁰

[redacted]

A. Yes, yes.

Q. How did you know that? How did you know that the entire town was, that the entire town justified that decision of yours to desert?

A. Well, because the place I live in is a small place and everybody knows me there, and they all knew where I was, so that they would all shout out to me -- for example, I would say, "I'm planning to go back," and they said, "Don't go back, you silly man. There's war going on there. Don't go back there." And so most of the people would say that to me, that kind of thing. And so during those days, I decided not to return any more. And I have a lot of Albanian relations as well, so that if I were to go down there, if I were to go back of my own free will, they would think I was going there on purpose, and they would think that I was going there to be against them, sort of thing, and that's why I gave that idea up.

Q. And is it true what you write here in your statement, that that's why the Albanians killed two of your uncles on your mother's side in the village of Rastavica?

A. Well, he was -- one of their relations worked for the Serb police force in Kosovo, and that was that particular problem. So to take their revenge on him, they killed them.

Q. Were they Albanians? Tell me that.

A. No. But I know that the Albanians killed them.

Q. You know that the Albanians killed them. And you consider that the motive was revenge; is that right? ⁸²⁹¹

A. Yes, because that particular man, the one who worked in the police force, he was a nephew of theirs who had left Yugoslavia before the bombing, actually. So that they weren't able -- the Albanians couldn't reach him. So they didn't know how to take their revenge, and then they found a way.

Q. All right. On the 21st of November, 1998, the military authorities arrested you in your house and took you into custody in the military prison in Nis, whereas you say you were with young Albanians there. Now, I'm interested in hearing the answer to this question: How -- what -- how were these Albanians in prison treated?

A. I was in a cell with one Albanian. There were other Albanians in the other cells. And how did I know? I knew because there's a small mirror -- window in the room, it's slightly ajar, and they would talk to each other through this in Albanian. So I knew they were Albanians. And the man with me, on the 17th day of our detention, I realised that we were relations on my aunt's side. And he said that he was captured at the Macedonian border as he was trying to cross illegally and that they caught him smuggling cigarettes. And the charge against him was -- the indictment against him was - while I was there I was able to deduce this - that it was for trafficking weapons, for smuggling weapons. That's what he was accused of and charged with. And I read this indictment, the charges brought against him.

So it says that he was smuggling arms, whereas he told me he was actually smuggling cigarettes.

Q. But my question to you was: How was he treated? How were these ⁸²⁹² young men, Albanian men who were in detention in the prison, treated? Was it the same treatment for one and all? Was it correct and proper?

A. Well, it was the same for everyone but it wasn't correct, really. It wasn't proper.

Q. In what sense do you mean not proper?

A. Well, if you had to go to the toilet and relieve yourself, you would have to do this in -- running. And when the guard said that's enough, stop there, you would have to run back. I wasn't able to go to sleep or catch a nap during the day, even on a chair or anything, twenty winks, nothing of that kind. And secondly, they didn't let us do anything. And their behaviour towards the Albanians wasn't bad, I didn't notice any bad behaviour towards the Albanians.

Q. So can I conclude from what you say that you were all treated the same; you were and the other men and all of them?

A. Yes. The treatment was the same for all of us.

Q. Now, your father nevertheless insisted that you go back to your unit and finish your military service there. And as you say, through some authoritative persons he saw that you got off after 20 days in prison and wanted you to go back to your unit.

A. My father came to visit me in prison. He had no other choice, and he talked to me in the presence of some of these NCOs who were there, and he said: "You must go back." And said, "I'm not going back alive." And he said, "Well, son, we don't have a choice. There is no other way out, you have to go back."

When the visit was over half an hour later, I decided to go back ^{8293 BLANK PAGE 8294} of my own free will. I was sorry, felt sorry for my father. I thought, well, what can he do? What's he going to do if I refuse? Then I had to write a request to the Judge, asking for an interview with the Judge so I could say what I wanted to say to my -- to this Judge. And they took me off to the Judge the next day, and you know the story after that.

Q. All right. On the 28th of February, 1999, once you had returned to your unit, you went, as far as I was able to see, to Ljubizde. And you say that some soldiers from the hills brought in the bodies of six Albanian men who -- six Albanian people who were dead, who had been dead for three days. Were they KLA members?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. And what clash with the army or police were they killed in?

A. There was no clash. It was just that these Albanians were caught up in an ambush.

Q. Ah. So they were killed in an ambush; right?

A. Yes, I think so. And allegedly, we -- the alarm was sounded and we were told to go up there because they said they had -- there were more terrorists up there. And I was in charge of security for the vehicles. My comrades went up into those woods and forest to catch the terrorists, but they didn't catch anybody at all alive. They just brought in three or four dead bodies. And I even carried some too. That is, with my vehicle, in my vehicle.

Q. Yes. But the order was to catch them and not to kill them.

A. Yes, that's right, but they had already -- the bodies had already frozen. So it doesn't take a day to freeze a body, it takes longer. So ⁸²⁹⁵ it was very cold weather at that time, and I assumed that they were already dead.

JUDGE MAY: It's now quarter to two. We have now to adjourn. Witness K32, would you be back tomorrow morning, please, at 9.00, to conclude your evidence.

And, Mr. Milosevic, you've got half an hour more for cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Nine o'clock tomorrow morning, please.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.