Milosevic Transcript 2002-09-02

⁹³¹³

Monday, 2 September 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, arising from the rulings recently received and from one or two other events, there are a few comparatively minor, or indeed very minor, administrative matters I'd like to raise. Looking at the number of them and realising that for one I'd like to have a draft motion available for you to consider, a motion that brings us up-to-date with witnesses, may I address you a little later this morning, at the beginning or end of one of the breaks?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: I was going to deal with it now, but I think it probably better if I deal with it later.

JUDGE MAY: While it's in my mind, let me mention something which we've been considering; the timetable. If we finish this part earlier than we'd thought, and it appears we may, then we'd be minded to bring forward Bosnia and Croatia.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm grateful for that confirmation of a position you had articulated earlier. My best estimate at the moment is that we probably will finish next Monday or Tuesday and I'm working on the basis, as you had indicated earlier, that the start of Croatia would be a fortnight from the end date.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We'll have the witness, please. ⁹³¹⁴ May we have the senior legal officer.

[Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: BEHAR HAXHIAVDIJA

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take at seat.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours, in the interest of assisting the members of the public who may not speak Albanian, I've provided a piece of paper with the correct spelling of the witness's name. Examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Sir, is your name Behar Haxhiavdija?

A. Yes.

Q. And, Mr. Haxhiavdija, were you born on the 24th of June, 1960, in the town of Gjakove in Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you the son of Mr. Ismet Haxhiavdija?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 15th of April, 1999, did you provide a statement to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 7th of May in the year 2001, did you provide an additional ⁹³¹⁵ statement to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 17th of January this year, 2002, in the country where you now reside, were you provided with copies of the statements that you previously made to the Office of the Prosecutor in a language that you understand in the presence of a member of the Office of the Prosecutor and a person qualified to witness your declaration?

A. Yes.

Q. On that occasion, did you confirm that the copies of your statement were true and accurate?

A. Yes.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I will ask that the statements of Mr. Haxhiavdija be admitted pursuant to Rule 92 bis. However, before numbers are assigned, I would ask Your Honours that we go into private session very briefly to discuss a matter related to a protected witness.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁹³¹⁶

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Okay. We're now in open session. The original version will be marked number -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 303, under seal. The redacted -- the first redacted version will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 303A, under seal, and the public redacted version will be 303B.

MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, Behar Haxhiavdija is a 42-year-old Kosovo Albanian ⁹³¹⁷ Muslim man who, prior to the events of 1999, was a manager of a wine factory in the municipality of Gjakove. On the evening of 1 April 1999, Mr. Haxhiavdija, his wife, and three small children were staying at the compound of Mr. Haxhiavdija's brother-in-law, Mr. Lulezim Vejsa, which is located at 157 Milos Gilic Street. Other family members sought shelter in the same compound. There was a pool hall with a basement in this compound, and at night the women and children slept in this basement. The men kept watch and slept in the house.

The men had devised a plan to escape from the compound in case Serb forces tried to break in. It was believed that while Serb forces might attack Kosovo Albanian males, they would not harm women and children. So Mr. Haxhiavdija, his brother-in-law Lulezim Vejsa, and Mr. Hani Hoxha had an escape route planned, if necessary. On the night of 1st April, there were 21 people sleeping in the basement. All were women and children with the exception of Hysen Gashi, a man who was mentally ill. Just after midnight, Mr. Haxhiavdija heard the sound of rifling action of a firearm; the distinctive metallic sound that is made when a person moves the action of the rifle to send a bullet into the chamber of a weapon. Mr. Haxhiavdija returned to the house and woke up his brother-in-law. They heard a voice say in the Serbian language, "Open the door," and then they heard a vehicle trying to push through the gate.

Mr. Haxhiavdija and Lulezim Vejsa passed through their escape route and left the compound. They spent the rest of the night hiding in another home. They could hear the sound of gunfire and explosions and ⁹³¹⁸ could see that houses were burning.

In the morning of 2nd of April, Mr. Haxhiavdija returned to the Vejsa compound and found it full of burning rubble. He learned that members of the Serb police had killed his wife and three children as well as other members of his extended family who had taken shelter in the basement the night before. Later that day, Mr. Haxhiavdija joined a convoy and went to Albania.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] You gave two statements to different investigators, one on the 15th of April, 1999, and the second two years later on May 7th, 2001; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. I assume -- or I'm asking you whether your first statement is more complete and closer to the truth, in view of the fact that you gave it immediately after the events that you are talking about.

A. Both are the same, in fact, with a small change, because the second statement was given after quite a long period, and it may have been that things were forgotten or just fall from my memory.

Q. Did your father give a statement to the investigators two days after your second statement, on the 9th of May, 2001, to the same investigator that you gave your statement to? Is that right?

A. Could you repeat the question, please?

Q. Is it true that your father gave a statement two days after your second statement, on the 9th of May, 2001, to the same investigator? ⁹³¹⁹

A. Yes, as far as I know.

Q. Where were you on the 2nd of April, 1999, around midnight?

A. I was in Lulezim Vejsa's house, my brother-in-law. He's my wife's brother. That's where I was at that time.

Q. In your first statement, you claim that you were on guard, that you were watching and waiting. Who was keeping watch?

A. We were almost all there. We were awake, and we were keeping watch for anything that might happen.

Q. In your second statement, you say that around midnight, you came out of the house in order to check what was happening in the neighbourhood, to check over the wall. So could you please tell me what is true; were you keeping watch or did you go out in order to look over the wall to see what was happening in the neighbourhood? What is the true version?

A. It's the same truth. I -- from the yard, in fact, I heard a rifle, the sound made by an automatic rifle. So whether on guard in the yard or on guard in the house, it's really the same. It's all the same incident.

Q. On page 1, in passage two of your first statement, you said that you heard a noise as if somebody was trying to break through the gate with a car. Is this true?

A. Yes. That happened after I heard the automatic rifle being filled. And then I was in a room -- went to a room to inform Hani and Lulezim that something was happening, and then they broke the gate.

Q. In your first statement, you said that you heard the noise of ⁹³²⁰ somebody trying to break through the gates with the cars. In your second statement, you say that you heard the sound of a weapon being loaded, and then, once you came into the house, you heard somebody say in Serbian, "Open the door." What was it you actually heard? Could you describe to me, please, what you heard.

A. As I said, as soon as I heard the weapon being loaded, I went to the room and then the gate was broken in. In fact, the car only tried to break down the gate.

Q. Which house were you in at that time?

A. We were in the house of Lulezim Vejsa. It's a yard in which there are two houses. One is -- one has a basement, and the other one is an ordinary house where we sat during the day. And we've lived there all our lives.

Q. Who was there with you in the house?

A. Besides the 21 members of our family in the basement, myself, Hani Hoxha, and Lulezim Vejsa were in the ordinary house.

Q. And the women and children, at the time when you were fleeing the house, they were in another house, in the other house, in the basement, when you were escaping from the first house where you were. Did I understand you correctly?

A. Could you repeat the question, please?

Q. Where were the women and children at the time when you were escaping from the house?

A. They were in the basement of the other house.

Q. Mr. Haxhiavdija, in your first statement you say that you escaped ⁹³²¹ from the house together with Lulezim and Hani Hoxha.

A. Yes.

Q. You escaped through holes in the wall which had been prepared in advance. Is this right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. In your second statement, however, on page 3, in paragraph 5, you say something else. You claim that you escaped through the window of Lulezim's bedroom and then you jumped over the wall and went to another house. What is true?

A. It's the same truth. It's the same version. I went in and then we jumped over the wall -- through the bedroom and over the wall, and went on. And the wall was -- had -- was partially destroyed, which we had prepared to make our escape.

Q. In your first statement, you say that Hani was walking behind you and Lulezim, but in your second statement you say that you didn't see Hani again until the morning. Was he with you or was he not with you?

A. It's not true. After we fled, Hani remained somewhere behind us, whereas Lulezim and I were always together.

Q. Very well. You say that you hid in a nearby house. How far is that house from the house that you escaped from?

A. About 500 metres.

Q. So it was half a kilometre away that you went. Something is not clear to me here. You say in your statement that you passed through several courtyards and hid in a house that wasn't inhabited, but a little while ago, you said, "In a nearby house," and now you're saying it was a ⁹³²² house that was half a kilometre away from the house you escaped from. What is actually correct?

A. This is a consistent truth. There's nothing to be disputed here. To go through 500 metres, you have to cross several yards.

Q. Since you were in a nearby house, as you say, did you hear anything in the course of that night before you returned to your own house? Because you say in the first statement that in the morning, you came back to your house and you found that it was burnt. What did you hear during the night about what was happening?

A. I didn't hear anything. But we noticed that -- because the night was very dark, we noticed that some houses were burning.

Q. You say in your second statement something a little different. Awhile ago you said what I just quoted to you, that in the morning you came back to your house and found it was burnt. In the second statement: "While I was approaching, I saw that Vejsa's house was burning or that smoke was coming from it."

Could you please answer: In which house were your wife and children?

A. They were sleeping in the basement. From the basement, according to the witness statement, the statement of the witness who experienced the incident, they say they took them from the basement and took them to the house, to the house where Lulezim and I had been staying, that is, to the ordinary house.

Q. All right. You are referring to the statement given by this (redacted); right? Tell me, since you did not answer me -- ⁹³²³

MR. SAXON: Your Honour --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, it will be redacted. No need to refer to that statement. You know that. Yes. Just deal with the witness -- what the witness found.

Where did you find your wife and children, or where did you see them?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. No. I'm asking you --

JUDGE MAY: Don't interrupt for a moment, please. Let the witness give his account.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the statement of the person who survived, I found them at the very place where he told me they were, just as he described. They had been killed on the doorstep. My mother-in-law, my wife, my son. Whereas the other persons were executed in the other room.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So if I understand your statement correctly, they were -- I asked you in which house were your -- were the women in children, in your house or in Vejsa's house?

A. In the Vejsas' house.

Q. In your first statement, when you were describing your return, you say, "It wasn't the house that mattered. I was concerned about my family members."

Are you talking about your house or Vejsa's house?

A. I am talking about the Vejsas' house, because at that moment, it ⁹³²⁴ wasn't important whose house it was. The important thing was to -- for people to survive, the people who were left there to survive.

Q. Yes. But I would like to have some things clarified here, because in the second statement you say: "I entered Vejsa's house that was full of rubble, that was still on fire." So what is correct? Whose house was on fire? Whose house did you enter? On the basis of what you've just said, it's Vejsa's house; right?

A. But these houses are within the same yard. Everything we are discussing about the event in question happened in the same yard. In fact, the basement where the family was in, the place -- the basement where they slept was only three metres away from the house where they used to live during the day, the ordinary house. I am speaking about the house of Lulezim Vejsa, which is a property -- unified property, so to say.

Q. In your second statement, you say that on that occasion, you talked to Dreni Caka, who said to you that the Serb policemen entered the cellar, killed your nearest and dearest, and then set the place on fire; is that correct?

A. Could you please repeat that?

Q. I say that in your second statement, on page 4, paragraph 1, you say that when you talked to (redacted), who said to you that the Serb policemen came into the cellar, killed your nearest and dearest, and then torched the house. Is that correct?

JUDGE MAY: Let's go into private session.

[Private session]

(redacted) ⁹³²⁵

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session now, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon. ⁹³²⁶

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if Mr. Milosevic chooses to use as his line of cross-examination this testing of the minute details of the witness's statements, that is Mr. Milosevic's prerogative. However, the Prosecution would only ask that it be done accurately. The last question of the accused was this: "You said that, according to a particular person, that the Serb police came to the basement, killed your nearest and dearest, and then burned the house." That is not what that paragraph, which is the first paragraph on page 4 of Mr. Haxhiavdija's second statement, reflects. What that paragraph says was: "He told me Serb police had come to the basement, taken them to the house and killed them." Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. You must take care, Mr. Milosevic, to put what the statement says.

Mr. Haxhiavdija, you've heard what counsel has read out; that you talked to somebody, he told you he'd been in that basement with all the others, "He told me Serb police had come to the basement, taken them to the house and killed them." Is that what he told you?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And when he referred to coming to the basement, so we can follow it, which basement was he referring to as you understood it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the family was sleeping in the basement there. According to the witness, they came, woke my family up, took all of them and sent them to the house, the ordinary house where they lived during the day, and that's where they executed them.

JUDGE MAY: And the house is the house that's referred to as ⁹³²⁷ Vejsa's house; is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's the property of the Vejsa family.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, in relation to this objection, I am quoting what I mentioned a minute ago only to show to you that the quotation was quite precise. It says here: "Then I talked to --" and then this person whose name is redacted. "He had been in that basement with all the others. He told me Serb policemen had come to the basement, taken them to the house, and killed them. He told me that the policemen had killed another woman," et cetera. But the passage I quoted was an exact quotation. So we've established that.

Now I'm moving on to your first statement. This had been the second statement.

In the first statement, you do not mention this person at all, the person that we do not refer to in public session by name. You say that your former neighbour, whose name is redacted, two days upon your arrival in Tirana -- that is to say, two days upon your arrival in Tirana, told you who killed your family and how.

Now, which version is correct, Mr. Haxhiavdija?

A. Both are true. Both of them have to do with the same event. But first of all, because I was so angry and sad about what had happened, I went there in order to confirm the events. But some days later, we met in Tirana and there details were given about who committed all these crimes.

Q. In your first statement, on page 3, in paragraph 6, "According to ⁹³²⁸ what he said to me --" you're referring to the neighbour you met in Tirana -- "I think that the following had happened." So according to what this neighbour had told you in Tirana, you think that the following had happened. And then you explain: "The Serb police and civilians took the members of my family out of the basement of Lulezim Vejsa, my wife's brother. They shot them and then they torched the house. Some used revolvers, others used automatic weapons. One of the children, Sihana Vejsa, six years old, was taken all the way to the cupboard where he was burned and killed." Then there's something that's redacted that is omitted, and then this person said, "One of the policemen had said, 'You've killed enough. Let's go on.'" And then again you say: "I think they were all in uniform. Almost a year before that, when it all started, all the men, all Serb men wore uniforms or were given uniforms," et cetera.

So the conclusion as to what had happened and how is something that you draw on the basis of what your former neighbour said to you; is that right?

A. The truth is what I described very well. I do not know what kind of interpretation you're having, but as far as I see, you're having -- you're getting a different interpretation of things. I told you, on the 2nd of April I met Dreni -- I met the person who survived and was wounded. He told me how the events had happened, how it came about when my kids were killed and then when they killed a young woman and an old woman and everybody else. However, the statement was as you said; he recognised the people, he saw them wearing uniforms. ⁹³²⁹ However, when he came to bigger details, also considering that he was unable to speak because he was bleeding and he needed help, he needed medical assistance, I ran to see whether I could do something for him. Correction: I ran for look for medical help.

Some days later, we met in Tirana and he gave more details. He also identified the persons who had committed this criminal act.

Q. All right. Please tell me, is what you say in your first statement correct, namely that that person whose name we do not mention now, together with all the others who had been killed, was allegedly in the basement and that is how he told you about all of this? Was he in the basement?

A. He was with all the other members of the family who slept in the basement. From there, they were sent to that house and were executed.

Q. All right. Did he tell you how come he survived?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he then manage to survive if they took people out of the basement or shot them there, killed them there? How did he manage to survive?

A. He was wounded in his left hand. Apparently he was lucky and survived. You can ask that to him whenever you come face-to-face to him, if you will get a chance to.

Q. All right. In your first statement, on page 3 you mention the names of several persons as persons who were standing, drunk, that night by the house where your nearest and dearest were; is that correct?

A. This is true, based on the statement that was given to me by ⁹³³⁰ another person, a person who actually lives in front of the Vejsas' house and could observe from his house whatever was happening.

Q. All right. If I understood this correctly, you are inferring this on the basis of the fact that there was a cafe across the street and that there were beer bottles on the window sill or something like that; is that correct?

A. But there are plenty of coffee bars. However, none of them was open because of the curfew. In fact, the whole town was paralysed. No one could open any shops or anything. So they only took things or just had things with them, things they needed.

Q. All right. Do you think that it is sufficient, on the basis of the fact that somebody is, for example, nearby drinking beer and the fact that this person left a beer bottle on a window sill, is that enough to infer that it was the same people who walked into your house, killed your family, et cetera?

A. Yes, it's true, because they saw the people, and whoever was out there was identified.

Q. Who identified them? Was it the same person that you keep referring to all the time or was it somebody else who identified them? He told you that in Tirana; is that right?

A. The person who told that to me in Tirana told me who had been there that night, referring to the persons who had committed the crime on my family.

Q. All of that is one and the same person that you keep quoting, right? ⁹³³¹

A. No. It's not the same person. The other person, I told you, used to live in the front of the Vejsas' house, and he identified the persons who were there who were in front of the shop that night and who entered the house and committed the crime.

Q. That means that that person had seen those other persons in front of the coffee bar. But that doesn't mean that those persons had killed someone. As far as I understand things, these persons were drinking beer; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: This is going to be -- just a moment, Mr. Haxhiavdija.

Mr. Milosevic, this is something we're going to have to decide. What we have is the witness's evidence on the point. He's given us -- he's told us what he has been told.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. But in your second statement, on page 4, paragraph 9, you blame the mayor of Djakovica, Stojanovic, directly for the death of your wife and children. Why are you accusing him now? Was he perhaps seen by some of your witnesses too? Was he also seen going there to kill your family?

A. No, he was not seen killing them, but he is - how do I put this? - the mastermind of these things or, rather, the person who allowed these things to happen in the town.

Q. So on the basis of the fact that a murder occurred in town, it is your assessment that the mayor, the president of the municipality, is responsible; is that right? ⁹³³²

A. Yes.

Q. All right. When you came to the Vejsa house, did you see the killed persons?

A. I could not observe dead people -- correction, killed people, because nothing was left. When I went there, I could only see some parts and bits the flesh, what was left of the burned bodies and killed bodies.

Q. All right. Did you see Hysen Gashi's body, for example, that morning when you returned to the house?

A. I also saw Hysen Gashi, observed Hysen Gashi.

Q. What did Hysen Gashi's body look like?

A. Only the body of Hysen Gashi was slightly more preserved than the others, but the other ones were unable to be identified. In Hysen Gashi's body, only the left part of the body was identifiable as a dead body. But otherwise, the feet, legs, and the arms were completely burned, even the bones.

Q. All right, Mr. Haxhiavdija. What you describe - namely the rubble, then the body of Hysen Gashi was a charred body; right? - could that have been done by a bomb, all of that?

A. Not in any way, because the Vejsas' is -- in fact, the roof is almost adjacent to a Serbian house and not even the smallest window of this other house was broken.

Q. That is not proof. I'm asking you about the house that you saw where your family had lost their lives. Could that house have been hit by a bomb?

A. No. Because as I said, this Serbian house is only half a metre ⁹³³³ away from the Vejsas' house, and this house suffered no damage at all. And the walls of the houses -- the walls of the house were damaged by flame too.

Q. When you entered the house, did the house have a roof?

A. No.

Q. Does that lead you to the assumption that perhaps it had been hit by a bomb?

A. No. No way.

Q. And that is exclusively on the basis of the fact that the adjacent house had not been damaged?

A. That's one way of showing this. But as I said, the walls of the house were still untouched, apart from one that fell in and the things that were burned.

Q. Is it correct that Djakovica was bombed incessantly as of the 24th of March, 1999?

A. No, not at all. I experienced this time, and the first NATO bomb was dropped on the barracks, and after that there was no other bombing. On the 2nd of April, I then went to Albanian territory, to the Republic of Albania.

Q. All right. Do you claim that there was no bombing except for once, only one time when the barracks were targeted? Is it your claim that Djakovica was not bombed; is that right?

A. As long as I was there, according to what I experienced, I only saw this one bombing, and I don't know about any others.

Q. When did you leave Djakovica? The 3rd of April; is that right? ⁹³³⁴

A. On the 2nd of April.

Q. All right. Let us just be very precise. You claim that there was no bombing between the 24th of March until the 2nd of April. No bombing whatsoever except that one bomb that fell on the barracks.

A. As far as I know, and as I said, we only saw the bomb on the barracks and I noticed no other explosions, large explosions, of any kind.

Q. Very well. The way in which your family was killed or the fact that you say that this was committed by Serbs, police officers and civilians, do you base your conclusion exclusively on this witness whose name is not mentioned, and you have no other elements in order to base your claim on how your family was killed?

A. No. The witness identified who was there, who was in the house and when they got them out of the basement.

Q. All right. That's this one witness on whose evidence you rely on and whose name was redacted.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all a matter of argument. Now, you have one minute left, so time for one last question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiavdija --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiavdija, there is no need to repeat this argument. We've heard your evidence. The accused has one more question to ask you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁹³³⁵

Q. All right. Could you please tell me the following: You worked as a director of a company in Djakovica, and you were treated as a prominent citizen throughout the time until the war. What could have been the motive for anybody to break into your house and to come and murder your family? Did you ever think about that in order to determine who was it who committed that?

A. You have the criminals in Serbia. You can find out yourself very easily. I have no reason to do so.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have the amicus any questions?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Behar, a little while ago you heard Prosecutor Saxon, in reading the brief resume of what you stated, said that you told them that that night you heard explosions. Is this true?

A. Could you repeat the question, please?

Q. Did you hear any explosions that night, the way that Mr. Saxon said awhile ago, how you stated that? Perhaps you said that to them. There is no mention of this in your statement, but Mr. Saxon read out awhile ago something relating to this, that perhaps in conversations with them you told them that you heard explosions in the course of that night. Did you hear explosions or did you not?

A. As far as I am aware, Mr. Saxon didn't say that there had been any explosion, and I said that there were no explosions at all that night except that I saw flames rising from the house where I had been staying.

Q. I have to repeat that I did hear Mr. Saxon say that. However, I ⁹³³⁶ don't insist on that.

JUDGE MAY: No. It merely confuses the witness.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge May, I have no intention of confusing the witness. In his statement, in his first statement, dated the 15th of April, 1999, the witness said that NATO began their air attacks and that this went on for five or six nights.

Q. So for five or six nights in a row, as you said, NATO bombed Djakovica. This is in paragraph 2 of your first statement.

A. As far as I know, the bombing started on the 24th, not on the 15th of April, as you said. But as I said, I only heard --

Q. I didn't say the 15th of April. You gave your statement on the 15th of April, 1999, and you said that NATO started the bombing, and when the bombing started, they bombed for five or six nights in a row. It's in paragraph 2 of your first statement.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, what are you trying to achieve by the cross-examination, please? Could you just explain to us what it is you want.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, awhile ago, in response to Mr. Milosevic's questions, he said there was only one bomb that was dropped, and his father also said that bombs were dropped five or six nights in a row, and in his statement he said that not only one bomb was dropped but the bombing went on for five or six nights in a row.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Can you help us, Mr. Haxhiavdija, about that? Which of those accounts is right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The bombing started in ⁹³³⁷ general, but after the bombing started, the terror intensified every night. And I don't know what my father said because I wasn't close to my father there. But on the 24th I only heard that one bomb. There may be other bombs that fell outside the city which we didn't hear at all.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So I can conclude, then, that you only heard one bomb and nothing more?

A. That's right.

Q. And then in your second statement, of May 7th 2001 - in the English version this is on page 2, the last paragraph - you also said that the bombing started a week before April 1st. And in the last sentence, you said that during the day, nobody went down to the basement during the day. You were in your family houses, and at night you went down to the basement in Vejsa's house to sleep. Was this done because NATO bombing was conducted generally at night? It was a well-known fact that NATO bombs were dropped only at night, and that this is why you went down to the basement.

A. No. No, that was not the reason. But all the beds were down there to sleep at night, whereas during the day, we spent the time in the ordinary house, living reasonably normally.

Q. How far is the Vejsa house from your house, and was the basement in your house suitable for you to be able to spend the night there?

A. My house didn't have a cellar.

Q. And if you can answer just this one more question: Were you able to look into the basement of Vejsa's house after everything that had ⁹³³⁸ happened to the house?

A. No, because I wasn't there at all.

Q. The house was knocked down?

A. The house was demolished totally, including the roof and all the contents. They were all burned entirely.

Q. One more thing: Awhile ago you said that you went inside the house. No?

A. I went into the yard.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.

Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Mr. Haxhiavdija, why did you originally decide to bring your family to your brother-in-law's house, Mr. Vejsa's house, on Milos Gilic Street?

A. Because my house is an old one, built about 50 or 60 years ago, and it wasn't really safe because it didn't have a cellar. And we thought that people from Cabrat might come and attack our house, and we didn't feel safe so we decided to go to the Vejsas'.

Q. When you say "people from Cabrat," could you be more specific, please? Who are you referring to?

A. I'm talking about the police and the army who had positioned their heavy artillery on the Cabrat Hill.

Q. When you say "the army," you're referring to the Serb army?

A. Yes.

Q. And is your house located close to Cabrat Hill? ⁹³³⁹

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Mr. Milosevic suggested that your brother-in-law's house was struck by bombs, that NATO bombs had struck the area on the 2nd of April. I'd like to show you a photograph, if I may.

MR. SAXON: And I'd like to ask the usher's assistance to distribute the photograph, please. There should be enough copies. And a copy could please be placed on the ELMO so that everyone can look on. Place it on the ELMO. That's good. Thank you.

Mr. Haxhiavdija -- can we raise up the projector just a bit so we get a slightly higher view? Just a bit, please. That's fine.

Q. Mr. Haxhiavdija, do you recognise this photograph?

A. Yes. It's Milos Gilic Street.

Q. Can you pick up a pen or a pointer, please, and point to the compound of your brother-in-law, Mr. Vejsa, where your family and others had taken shelter on the 1st of April.

A. The family were sheltering in this building, which was strong and built of strong materials. Here was the cellar. It was from here that the people were taken and brought to this house here.

Q. Was that your brother-in-law's house, Mr. Vejsa's house?

A. Yes. This is -- this is the entire property of the Vejsa family, from these four corners.

Q. Could you please pick up a pen, or if there is no pen there you can take my pen, and write the letter -- write an arrow and the letter "B," pointing to the basement where the women and children had taken shelter. ⁹³⁴⁰

A. This was the basement. And this was the house where people lived normally during the day.

Q. Can you put the letter "H," which would stand for "house" in English, by that spot, please.

A. [Marks]

Q. Thank you. Mr. Haxhiavdija, would this photo depict the Milos Gilic Street neighbourhood before the war in 1999 or after?

A. This shows the street after the war, or after the events that happened.

Q. All right. Mr. Haxhiavdija, I know that a number of your relatives lived in that house on Milos Gilic Street. Did you have occasion to visit that house from time to time before the war?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know the -- did you get to know, at least by sight, the neighbours who lived on that street besides your brother-in-law and his family?

A. Yes. I knew some of them. I recognised some of them.

Q. And did you know the ethnicity of some of the neighbours who lived on that street?

A. Yes. There were Romanies, there were Serbs, and Montenegrins, and Albanians.

Q. Okay, could you place your pointer on your brother-in-law's compound, please.

A. [Indicates]

Q. There is a house that appears to be undamaged directly behind the ⁹³⁴¹ compound of the Vejsa family. Do you see that house? It's directly behind the house where you were.

A. [Indicates]

Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the family who lived in that house?

A. They were Albanians. In fact, two people from that house slept in our house, and one of them was killed in the massacre.

Q. All right. Mr. Haxhiavdija, moving one house to the right of that compound, Mr. Vejsa's house, we see another house that apparently is undamaged. Could you place your pen on that house to the right, please.

A. [Indicates]

Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the family who lived in that house?

A. Yes, there were Serbs here.

Q. Can we go one house to the right, please. Who lived in that next house to the right? Was it a Serb family, an Albanian family, or other?

A. They were Romanies here, as far as I know.

Q. And the house to the right of that, do you know whether that was a Serb family or an ethnic Albanian family or other?

A. This here is the house of the person who survived the incident.

Q. So that would be an Albanian family?

A. That's an Albanian house.

Q. And the house to the right of that?

A. This one is a Serbian house.

Q. All right. Mr. Haxhiavdija, can we go, please, to the homes that are across the street from Lulezim Vejsa's house. We see a lot of damage there. Do you see those homes? ⁹³⁴²

A. Yes.

Q. The homes that are directly across the street from Mr. Vejsa's house. What was the ethnicity of those three homes where we see a lot of damage, the ethnicity of the families who lived there?

A. They were Albanian houses here and here.

Q. To the best of your knowledge, were any of the houses that were damaged on that street, did any of them belong to Serb families?

A. No. Those houses have remained undamaged down to the present day.

Q. So if Mr. Milosevic is correct that this damage was caused by NATO bombing, somehow the NATO bombing only damaged homes inhabited by Albanians; would that be correct?

A. That's what he seems to think.

MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have no further questions. Just for the record, Your Honour, this photo is also in evidence in the Milos Gilic Street binder, which is Exhibit 160, tab 2.

JUDGE MAY: It may be -- just a moment. It may be convenient to give it another number so it can be attached to this witness's evidence.

MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

THE REGISTRAR: This will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 304.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Regarding these new facts, I would say these new facts which Mr. Saxon is trying to interpret in the wrong way here, Mr. Haxhiavdija --

JUDGE MAY: If you want to ask some further questions, you better ask permission first. You can't just launched into a further examination. ⁹³⁴³ You can ask, since this photograph wasn't produced, you can ask questions for two minutes about it, but no more. Further cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] You indicated the house where the basement was where the members of your family were hiding. As we can see, that house is untouched. It wasn't burned. It wasn't demolished. Is that true or not?

A. It shows that there was no bombing.

Q. So there was bombing there.

A. There was no bombing.

JUDGE MAY: That's not what the witness has said.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please. I am just saying that the house where the basement was was not burned. You said that the house with the basement and where your relatives were killed was all under -- in rubble and that it was burned. Here we see that the house is standing and that it wasn't set on fire.

A. This house was built of very strong materials, and there was not a thing to burn in it except the basement where the beds and other things for the night were put. That was burnt.

Q. But I am not disputing the possibility that the house was burned. I am doubting your claim that you came and found charred bodies in the house. Now in the photograph we see that the house was not burnt. It hasn't been damaged at all.

JUDGE MAY: You are misrepresenting the evidence, Mr. Milosevic. The evidence which the witness gave was that the bodies were not in the ⁹³⁴⁴ house with the basement. They had been taken from there and taken to the house which he's identified, which we can see destroyed, to the right in the same compound. Now, that is the damaged building.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. We'll check the transcript, but this is so.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it evident in the houses that have been demolished that all the walls are white, there are no traces of a fire except for this one up here on the corner, so it's probably then the effect of bombardment and not of any burning. Had they been set on fire, the walls would be black or at least there would be traces of fire on them.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness -- let the witness deal with that. What is suggested is that you can't see the trace of fire, so this damage which we can see in the photograph, 304, must be the result of bombing. Now, this will be the last question. Mr. Haxhiavdija, can you deal with that, please?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But you can see the traces. Of course you can. You can see the burning. If you come closer, you will see that all the walls are burned and damaged.

JUDGE MAY: He may have been referring -- the accused may have been referring to the houses which are lower down in the photograph. If you look to the house to the right there, it looks as though there's burning there. But I'm not -- no, I'm not going to go on because it will be a matter for us.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Just because Mr. Saxon ⁹³⁴⁵ tried to manipulate with the fact and to come out with an assumption of how the Albanian houses and not Serbian houses were burned and destroyed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, could you mark on this photograph all the houses that are Serb houses. I would like to keep this in order to check this. Regardless of the fact if they were destroyed or not. Could you please indicate all the Serb houses. How many of them did you mark?

JUDGE MAY: He's marked them on the overhead. And while you're at it, perhaps, Mr. Haxhiavdija, you would mark the Albanian houses with an "A", please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So how many Serb houses did you mark, please?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just let him finish.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What about these houses here that are left untouched? Are they all Serbian or Albanian? And what was the percentage of the Serb population in Djakovica, Mr. Haxhiavdija?

JUDGE MAY: Now, we are going to bring this to an end, otherwise we shall never finish.

Could you just mark the Albanian houses, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And these with "A" are Albanians, and with "S" are Serbian houses, and "R" means a Romany house.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] So as we can see, more Albanian houses are left standing than Serbian houses, even in this part that was destroyed. And these destroyed houses ⁹³⁴⁶ that you can see, which ones --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, eventually your examination must to come to an end. It cannot go on forever. You've been given more time. The witness has marked on the map the various things, and there's no point continuing.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Saxon, I wonder if you can help us with when and by whom this picture was taken.

MR. SAXON: This picture was taken, Your Honour, I believe by one of the investigators working for the OTP. I do not have the exact date. Excuse me, Your Honour.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. SAXON: It was taken by representatives of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation from the United States. We don't have the date handy at this time, but we can get it for you.

JUDGE KWON: I would appreciate that. Please get the date.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiavdija, at the end of it all there's a simple matter of fact. During the night on your family were killed, did a bomb fall on Milos Gilic Street, on any of the houses?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no bomb fell, but there was burning.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. That concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes. ⁹³⁴⁷

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Saxon, we have been reflecting on the last witness, and we're concerned about the photograph production at the last minute. And thinking about it, of course acknowledging that it is easier to deal with these things with hindsight than beforehand, it really would have been better, we think, if the photograph had been produced early on. Now, we know it's part of the material which was part of the binder, and therefore it was disclosed and anybody could have had it, but given the amount of material in this case, anyone can be forgiven for not immediately connecting everything up. So acknowledging too the limitations of time which you're under, if there is a case in which there may be an issue of that sort, it would be helpful to have the exhibit at the beginning rather than the end. And that's not only in the interests of fairness, so that the accused can have it, decide to take instructions on it, it's also in the interests of our following the case.

MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. And with regard to that same exhibit, 304, Judge Kwon asked me to provide the date and source of the photograph. This photograph was taken by the FBI War Crimes Task Force when this body was conducting investigations in Kosova, between the 24th of June, 1999 and the 29th of June, 1999. So the photo was taken during that period.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the marked copy of the photograph will be given Prosecutor's Exhibit 304A. And a clarification for witness ⁹³⁴⁸ Haxhiavdija's statement; 303A will be under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will now call Mr. Izet Krasniqi. While we're waiting, Your Honours, Mr. Krasniqi's evidence will be relevant to page 06 of the Kosovo atlas.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: IZET KRASNIQI

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with the Trial Chamber's permission, I have Mr. Krasniqi's name spelled correctly. If that could be exhibited or, excuse me, displayed on the ELMO, please.

Examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Sir, is your name Izet Krasniqi?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, were you born on the 1st of March, 1942, in the village of Studime e Poshtme in Kosovo?

A. That's correct. That's correct. True.

Q. And is that village located in the municipality of Vushtrri, to the east of the town of Vushtrri?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, on the 30th of March, 2000, did you provide a ⁹³⁴⁹ statement to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosova in 1999?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. On the 11th of October, 2001, did you provide an additional statement to a member of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosova in 1999?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. On the 2nd of February of this year, 2002, in Kosova, were you provided with copies of the statements that you previously gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in a language that you understand in the presence of a member of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the Registry?

A. Yes, true. The statement was read to me by the investigators of the Tribunal, but copies were not given to me.

Q. All right. But did you confirm that the copies that were read to you were true and correct?

A. Yes, that's true.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that the statements of Mr. Krasniqi be distributed but that they not be marked for admission yet because I have a question or two that I have to discuss with this witness regarding one of his statements.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, recently in conversations with me here in The Hague, did you observe some mistakes in the statement that you provided on the 30th of March, 2000?

A. Yes. ⁹³⁵⁰

Q. In the first full paragraph on page 5 of the English version of your statement of 30 March 2000, and also on page 5 of the Serbian version, you describe how thousands of displaced people had gathered in the village of Studime e Eperme on the 2nd of May, 1999, when Serb forces broke through KLA resistance.

In the last sentence of that paragraph, you say that: "We decided to stay even though we had no reliable information from the KLA." Is that last sentence correct?

A. Yes. We had no sure information, and we couldn't even believe what was happening to us. As far as the Serb forces were concerned, we didn't know whether they were going to fight with the KLA or whether there was something worse that could happen to the population, the innocent population, unarmed population which was being misplaced from one place to another.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, what if anything did members of the KLA say to the people that were gathered in Studime e Eperme at that time?

A. The KLA advised us that since we were unarmed people, we should just stick to the convoy we were in because if the Serb forces would come along, it was expected that they might attack us. But we were the innocent people, and if they were a fair, normal army, then they wouldn't attack us. So we had to stay in the convoy so as to prevent what happened to us from happening.

But before the Serb forces came, we gathered, a group of people gathered. We discussed amongst ourselves, and we decided that on the 2nd of May, around 3.00 -- the following persons were present in that ⁹³⁵¹ gathering: Bajram Mulaku --

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did the KLA say anything else to you and the group you were with before you joined the convoy on the 2nd of May? Just yes or no, please.

A. The army advised us, since we were not armed and we were innocent, they said if they want to attack someone, they will come and look for the KLA. They told us, "You are the innocent, unarmed population. We will just create a corridor for you through which you will pass," as opposed to the difficulties we went through.

Q. All right. Mr. Krasniqi, on page 8 of the English version of the same statement, it's also page 8 of the Serbian version, in the middle of the page, you say that you remained in Albania until the 1st of September, when you were able to return to Kosova. Is that sentence correct?

A. I corrected it. Not 1st of September, but it was on 1st of August that I returned from Albania.

Q. Very well.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours, with those corrections, I would offer the statement of Mr. Krasniqi into evidence under Rule 92 bis.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the original will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 305, under seal, and the public redacted version will be 305A.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours, Izet Krasniqi, a Kosovo Albanian Muslim, was born and previously resided in the village of Studime e Poshtme in the Vushtrri municipality. His house in the village was burned down in 1999. ⁹³⁵² By the 26th of March, 1999, it became too dangerous in the village, so the witness went with his wife and son to stay with relatives in the town of Vushtrri. Whilst Mr. Krasniqi stayed in Vushtrri, Serb paramilitary burned houses and the main mosque in the centre of the town. On or about the 5th or 6th of April, 1999, Serbian paramilitary evicted Mr. Krasniqi and his relatives from Vushtrri, giving them five minutes to leave. His relatives left for Macedonia, but the witness returned with his family to his village of Studime e Poshtme.

Mr. Krasniqi describes Serb paramilitaries setting up a base around the 15th of April, 1999, on a hill close to and overlooking his village. These forces had tanks, mortars, and automatic weapons. Mortar and sniper fire was directed at Mr. Krasniqi's village and homes were damaged. On the 20th of April, 1999, a woman and her daughter were shot by snipers. Mr. Krasniqi describes daily shelling of Studime e Poshtme and alleges that people were killed by snipers, including a woman and daughter. One day, Mr. Krasniqi and his family fled their home due to heavy shelling. That day, Mr. Krasniqi's home was completely destroyed. Eventually, about 10.000 displaced persons were gathered in and around Studime e Poshtme. After paramilitaries shot several persons, the refugees decided to go higher in the mountains, to the village of Studime e Eperme, for safety. Mr. Krasniqi and his family arrived there on his tractor early in the morning of 20 April. There was a KLA presence in Studime e Eperme, but on 1 May 1999, word arrived that Serb forces had broken through the KLA resistance. Eventually, about 25.000 displaced persons gathered in Studime e Eperme. As the Serb forces advanced, the ⁹³⁵³ KLA soldiers left the area.

Around 7.00 p.m. on the 2nd of May, as Serb forces approached from the north, west, and east, the refugees formed a convoy of tractors and trailers four to five kilometres long that began to move toward Studime e Poshtme to the south. Serb forces fired at the convoy, and Mr. Krasniqi's wife was wounded in the leg. While Mr. Krasniqi tried to help her, Serb forces on foot and in tanks and Pinzgauers caught up with his part of the convoy. Mr. Krasniqi was forced to turn over 300 Deutschmarks to one paramilitary and another paramilitary struck him on the head with the barrel of his gun.

Mr. Krasniqi became separated from his wife and continued to drive his tractor in the convoy. At one moment, Mr. Krasniqi saw a Serb paramilitary in a Pinzgauer vehicle aiming a grenade launcher at him. The grenade hit Mr. Krasniqi's tractor and exploded. Mr. Krasniqi was thrown to the ground and suffered wounds to his forehead and left shoulder and his left arm was broken. Eventually, he crawled into a covered trailer being pulled by another tractor. At around 11.00 p.m., Mr. Krasniqi reached the agricultural cooperative outside of the town of Vushtrri. The next morning, Serb paramilitaries ordered all of the men between 18 and 60 to gather on one side of the compound. Mr. Krasniqi remained inside the trailer. The paramilitaries forced the Kosovo Albanian men to stand with their hands on their heads and shout "Slobo" and "Draskovic." Two large trucks arrived and the men were forced to climb into them and were taken away.

The paramilitaries told the remaining Kosovo Albanians to get back ⁹³⁵⁴ onto their trailers and drive onto the main road. Mr. Krasniqi rode in the trailer as it passed through Mitrovica and was stopped at roadblocks in Skenderaj, Istok, Klina, and Xerxe. At each roadblock, Serb paramilitaries forced the people on each tractor to turn over at least 100 Deutschmarks. The driver of Mr. Krasniqi's tractor was beaten at these roadblocks. At the Albanian border crossing at Morina in the Gjakove municipality, a Serb policeman and a Serb soldier questioned the occupants of Mr. Krasniqi's trailer. The Serb forces took all of the identity cards and passports from the Kosovo Albanians before allowing them to cross the border.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] You stated in your first statement that you always worked in the administration and that from 1998, you worked in the accounting service of the Obilic thermoelectric power plant; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, how many Albanians were employed at the Obilic thermoelectric power plant?

A. The former electrical plant, since 19 --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Krasniqi, what are you reading from?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The events that we went through but also some database from our past which I have jotted down regarding workers and employees which the accused asked about. In 1990, there were 11.000 Albanian -- ⁹³⁵⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁹³⁶⁹

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. You're giving evidence here, and the normal rule is that witnesses don't give evidence from notes but, of course, from their recollection. But you say you have a note, do you, as to those who were employed in the power plant? You've got a note about that, have you?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have notes in general about the thermoelectric power plant.

JUDGE MAY: You can use those notes, but apart from that, would you not use them unless there's a specific point you want to refresh your memory on. Yes. Now, give us the answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear. In the thermoelectric power plant, 70 per cent of the employees were Albanian, which, generally speaking, in Kosova at the time, 90 per cent of the population was Albanian, and we deserved to have 70 per cent of Albanian employees in the plant.

JUDGE MAY: That's another point. If you would just concentrate on the questions and just give the answers, we'll get on more quickly. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And what was the total number of employees at the thermoelectric power plants at Obilic?

A. In total, up until violence started, their number was around 12.000.

Q. All right. So thousands and thousands of Albanians worked at the thermoelectric power plants in Obilic all the way up to the war. Isn't ⁹³⁷⁰ that right, Mr. Krasniqi?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember when the members of the KLA, during 1998, abducted a group of workers employed at the thermoelectric power plant, and they were going to work at the pit at Belacevac?

A. Of which nationality are you referring to?

Q. They abducted a group of Serbs, workers who were working in the pit, in the Belacevac pit. If you remember their names, they were Dragan Vukomirovic, Zoran Anicic, Petar Acancic, Dusan Acancic, Miroslav Trifunovic, Sebera Sabic [phoen], Bozidar Lencic, and Marijan Buha. Of course, in Belacevac, for the most part it was Albanians who were employed there, but the persons abducted were Serbs. They were workers who were going to do their shift in the pits. That was in 1998.

A. I remember what you're talking about. I do not remember the names and surnames. I remember the kidnapping, but I do not know who they were kidnapped by, and I do not know why they were kidnapped. But Serb forces were conducting large operations, wide operations in Kosovo, and all the kidnappings and the killings and everything happened because of them and by them. The accused knows that very well as far as they are concerned, as far as everything is concerned in Kosovo. However, the bottom line is I do not know who kidnapped them.

Q. And do you remember, perhaps, that the kidnapping of these workers was the first incident in the area and that this could not have been caused by any operations of the Serb forces, as you had put it? Do you remember that, Mr. Krasniqi? ⁹³⁷¹

A. Since 1990, when violent measures also included the thermoelectrical plant, discrimination within the administration reached high levels, and Lazar Ecevic, Milan Vujakovic, and a person by the name of Sokrat, who was Roman, were also conducting discrimination, so to say. He also worked in the Serb administration, who kept discriminating Albanians, kicking them out of their jobs and violating their employment rights and their rights to -- their right to exist, merely because they had the power and the administration in their hands. While we Albanians, we loved working. Even though economically speaking we were not very well off, however, the desire to survive and to work honestly. Regardless of all these, we underwent killing and execution and discrimination.

137 employees --

JUDGE MAY: Now, we must keep these within bounds. Can you answer the questions as shortly as possible.

Mr. Milosevic, we will not be assisted by political argument, which these sort of questions lead to. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What kind of discrimination are you speaking about, Mr. Krasniqi? When we stated a few minutes ago that thousands and thousands of Albanians worked at the thermoelectric power plants in Obilic only. You're even talking about killings and I don't know what all. What kind of discrimination are you talking about?

A. It was discrimination. People were sacked. When the war started on a large scale, the Albanians suffered in comparison with the structure ⁹³⁷² of the Serbian population. This was outright discrimination. It was disproportionate.

Q. All right, Mr. Krasniqi. These are rather general statements that are refuted by facts. And do you know about the fate of these kidnapped workers who were also going to their work peacefully, going to work in the mine? And their fate remains unknown. Nothing is known about them up to the present day.

A. I don't know what happened to them. I don't know.

Q. And did you hear that, after the kidnapping, they were transferred to the KLA prison in Likovac in Drenica?

A. I don't know about prisons because the KLA didn't have prisons.

Q. You claim that the KLA did not have any prisons; is that right?

A. I don't know of the KLA having any prisons.

Q. So what do you think? Through the efforts of the Verification Mission of the OSCE, where were soldiers who had been kidnapped released from, for example, or journalists who had been released? The negotiations on their release took days. Where were they released from?

JUDGE MAY: There is no point arguing about this. He says he doesn't know. He says the KLA didn't have any prisons. Now, you can produce your evidence on the point in due course, but there's no point arguing with him about it. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know that in that period, during 1998 in particular, there were many breakdowns and many attacks at various stations in Obilic, ⁹³⁷³ then also transmission lines were broken, machinery was stopped, bombs were planted. There were sabotages, et cetera. Do you know about that? Because you were employed there all the time.

A. At that time, I don't know of there being breakdowns, as you claim. And even if there were, it was all in the hands of the Serbian administration. We were not able to conduct any sabotage or cause any breakdowns.

Q. That was well known in the public. Even the newspapers wrote about this, carried pictures. This was on television. So you don't remember any of this; right?

A. I said, as I said before, Your Honours, that we had no authority to cause -- or we didn't have powers to cause sabotage or breakdowns in the Kosovar power network. And after the Serbian authorities took management into their hands, we were mainly -- we were merely manual workers, and we only had jobs that Serbs didn't like doing. So we were not in any position to cause any breakdowns because of this discrimination.

Q. All right. Mr. Krasniqi, you say that you yourself worked in the administration. So you personally were not a manual labourer; is that right? Why are you speaking in the first person plural when referring to manual labourers when you obviously were not a manual labourer?

A. I wasn't a manual labourer, but the job where I worked before the war, in the archives, was taken away from me and a Serb took my place. But he didn't like the work at the desk, and so he didn't want to accept the job, and so he -- he liked to keep on the move and go out, and so I ⁹³⁷⁴ had to do this job that he didn't want.

Q. All right. And what about the rest of these 70 per cent of the employed persons there who were Albanians? Did they all take jobs that Serbs didn't like and didn't want to do?

A. Once again, I must repeat, Your Honour, that until the imposed measures in 1990, it was up until then we were 70 per cent Albanians. But after then, Albanians were sacked and replaced but Serbs, and there were only a few of us left. After 1998, in December, we -- there were only a few workers left. For instance, in the conveyer belts, in cleaning, jobs which the Serbs wouldn't do. So there were only a few workers left, and subject to discrimination, with very low wages, and no trade unions because the trade unions only defended Serbian interests, and Serbs had all kinds of bonuses in food, and whereas we were forced to contribute to this trade union against our will. We had no responsibilities, we had no authorities, and all the specialised staff were dismissed and the management of the power station was assumed by Serbs.

Q. Oh, please, let us not waste time, Mr. Krasniqi. Let's not discuss trade unions and things now.

Are you claiming that Serbs were paid more for the same work, more than Albanians? Is that perhaps your claim?

A. Indeed it was true.

Q. All right. Thank you. After all, there is information about this, figures, lists, et cetera, also the employees themselves. So it's pointless wasting time.

You said in your first statement, I am quoting it: "In the school ⁹³⁷⁵ in Gornja Studimlja in the municipality of Vucitrn, from January 1999 there was a KLA platoon that was stationed there consisting of about 30 soldiers," as you call them. "As far as I know, this number remained unchanged throughout the war."

Why was there a platoon of KLA in the school in Gornja Studimlja from January onwards?

A. This is true. In Studime e Eperme, there was a military unit of about 30 soldiers who had some kind of weapons but is in no way comparable with the weaponry of the Serb forces. But they were defending their own people, their own land, their territory against the attacks of Serbian forces. But as we know, our army was not a match, even though it had the willpower and it had the idealism. The Serbian forces had the weapons.

JUDGE MAY: Just try and concentrate on answering the questions, Mr. Krasniqi, if you would.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is this the elementary school Remzi Sylejmani?

A. That's right. Remzi Sylejmani. Which school do you mean?

Q. The one where this KLA unit was, the one that you referred to.

A. Yes. That's what it's been called since the war.

Q. Was Musa Terbunja the commander of this unit?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. You say that from January 1999 onwards, you helped the KLA with their supplies of fuel, clothing, et cetera. So you worked as a kind of supplier of theirs; is that right?

A. That's true that we indeed helped our army, the KLA, with petrol, ⁹³⁷⁶ with food, clothes, to the extent that we could. And if we had had more, we would have helped more, because Serbian terror was strangling our existence.

Q. All right. All right. Tell me, where were you bringing this and how were you bringing it?

A. We obtained this aid, and the oil products, we bought them and kept them at home and then took them up to the army in its positions.

Q. Where were the positions to which you took that to?

A. The position was up there in Studime e Eperme where the army was, and the positions were taken according to their judgement, according to what they decided.

Q. How many of them were there then when you went to their positions?

A. I would hand these things over at the school in Studime e Eperme. And there were 30 of them there, but some of them had gone out to scout out the terrain, and no doubt they had their own programme, and according to the officers of the KLA who were leading that unit.

Q. And tell me, do you -- do you know the members of the staff of that unit? Besides Terbunja -- there was Terbunja Bajram, Ismet Terbunja, Bunjako Kusit [phoen], Popova Nexhit, Janush Gashi, and some others.

A. I wasn't there. I wasn't active in the KLA in order to know all their names, but they were there to defend their people and to scout out the terrain and to protect their -- our land, and so we helped them in any way that we could, according to our resources. That's my answer.

Q. Yes. All right. I understand your explanation. But can you please tell me, in your first statement, you say that they decided to take ⁹³⁷⁷ wounded Hasan to the field hospital in the Cecelija village but he died on the way, and someone else was wounded in both legs, and he was also taken to Cecelija. In which fighting were this Hasan and his father wounded, and these others, that you were taking to the hospital in Cecelija? Where did this fighting take place? Was this near the school in Studimlja or was it somewhere else?

A. This happened on the 16th of April in a house where Serbian forces, and I won't go into the burning of the house, and they went to the house of Sadik Veshica and they threw him out of the house and took over the horses, but the Serbs made no bones about throwing him out. And unfortunately, it was a tragedy in Sadik's family, and Sadik was seriously wounded in the leg and his son Hasan was wounded while getting into an orange-coloured Mercedes to leave the house - not in the leg but in the back - hit by Serbian forces and Hasan's brother was killed by a sniper in his own yard. And the most terrible thing that happened there was when Sadik's grandson was killed, who was 18 years old, and he was killed by 500 or 600 metres from the house. And he was so young and --

Q. Very well, Mr. Krasniqi. Could you be a little bit briefer, please.

JUDGE MAY: Just concentrate -- I know there's much you want to tell us, Mr. Krasniqi, we understand that. But you must understand too that we have only a limited time. We have got your statement, so we have got your evidence in front of us. If you would just concentrate on answering the questions. And if there is some further explanation necessary, you could give it in due course or indeed at the end, when Mr. ⁹³⁷⁸ Saxon will be able to ask you some more questions. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you know how many members of the KLA took part in the fighting that you mention where these people were wounded?

A. There were none. No member of the KLA participated in that fighting that day. There was population -- there was normal people there, civilians, and the KLA had done that in order not to cause any victims.

Q. And did the KLA members take them to the field hospital?

A. It's not true. It was the people. The people heard it. And I was there myself.

Q. All right. If they were not the KLA and if they were not taken by the members of the KLA, why were they not taken to the city hospital in Vucitrn instead to the KLA field hospital?

A. No, not -- there were no doctors at the time at the state-owned hospital. We needed a safe place. Only Sadik Veshica and Hasan who was sent to Cesinice [phoen], and he was being treated by the KLA doctors.

Q. All right, I understand that they wanted to go to a safe place. Is that because both Hasan and his father were members of the KLA? Is that right, Mr. Krasniqi? That is why they needed to go to a safe place.

A. Not true, because Sadik, with his sons, was at the KLA. They were not. They were at home that day. They were wearing normal civilian clothes, as always, but they were never with the KLA.

Q. The question of clothes is not relevant here, but how can you tell, or are you saying that there were no doctors in the hospital in ⁹³⁷⁹ Vucitrn and that is why they were not taken to Vucitrn, that there were no doctors in the city hospital in Vucitrn?

A. No. It's true that we didn't have any trust in -- in the Vushtrri hospitals because they were all staffed by Serbian doctors, and we didn't dare to take our people there and --

Q. But you did go for treatment to Serbian doctors, as far as I know. And could you please tell me, who were the doctors at the KLA field hospital in Cecelija? Did Dr. Shukri Gerxhaliu work there? Do you remember that?

A. Yes. Dr. Shukri Gerxhaliu was thrown out of the health centre in Vushtrri rather before this incident and was involved as a doctor in helping the wounded civilians and soldiers in the field hospital in Sllakofc.

Q. Dr. Agim Peqi [phoen] also worked there; isn't that right?

A. There were several doctors working there, to help the civilian population and the army, as normal.

Q. All right. And who commanded the KLA unit in Cecelija where this hospital was?

A. I said before. I will repeat it again. Your Honours, I only know of the checkpoint in Studime e Eperme, because myself, I was not activated, I was not engaged in these activities of the KLA.

Q. And was Gani Imeri the commander of those headquarters which also covered the villages of Kurilivo, Slakovac and Meljanica, besides Cecelija? Do you remember that?

A. Your Honour and Prosecutors, I said very clearly -- ⁹³⁸⁰

JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know, Mr. Milosevic. There's no point going on about it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you perhaps meet the commander of that terrorist group, Gani Imeri, who -- whose characteristic was that one of his legs was shorter than the other?

JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know. Do you know this gentleman -- just a moment.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, just wait a moment. Do you know this gentleman who was mentioned or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I only know -- I only knew the soldiers in Studime e Eperme. And what you call Albanian terrorists, the KLA were not terrorists. And this is your comment. Because the KLA didn't go to Serbia and Belgrade --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. -- Mr. Krasniqi, I'm -- I must stop you. This is all a matter of argument. Mr. Krasniqi, this is all a matter of argument. We've heard plenty of evidence, and we will have to make our minds up about it in due course. Now, I know that you may feel provoked by the way in which the accused puts his questions. Do not be provoked. Just answer them patiently.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Don't -- there's no point putting any more questions to him about the membership of the KLA. He doesn't know. He's told you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁹³⁸¹

Q. Do you know that some of them are in prison now and they've been arrested by the UNMIK police because of illicit actions?

JUDGE MAY: No. You know you're not to ask those questions. Now, unless you ask a relevant question in the next five to ten minutes, you're going to be stopped.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that in the village of Pasoma, close to your village, there was also a KLA unit which numbered over 100 members and which was commanded by Ali Januzi? Do you know that?

A. I know that the fighters of the KLA were born out of the bosom of the people because of the terror in Kosova which was carried out by you.

JUDGE MAY: The answer, I think, is no. Now, have you got any other questions on the witness's evidence? He's given evidence about the attack on the convoy. If you challenge that, Mr. Milosevic, you should do so now in the five to ten minutes remaining.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do dispute it, but it says here in his statement --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say in your statement that you sheltered in Gornja Studimlja and that the village was bombed. And I'm quoting you, that the village was bombed because the KLA was stationed there. Is this right? And then you say, on the same page: "The KLA told us that we were safe for the moment." So you were directly with a KLA unit in this village, in Gornja Studimlja; is that right?

A. Which Studimlja are we talking about, because there are two ⁹³⁸² Studimljas.

Q. We're talking about Gornja Studimlja. You're saying Gornja Studimlja was bombed because the KLA was stationed there. That's what you said in your statement. So to complete the picture that you were talking about, that changed a little bit. We were -- you were talking about the presence of the KLA in that area of yours. You were talking about contacts with them. They told you to stay, to go, and so on. You spoke about how tanks were deployed, where they were deployed, the artillery, that fighting was conducted with the KLA on the Cicavica mountain. So in this context, you were leaving. Does that mean that you were fleeing the conflicts, which were intense, the conflicts between the KLA and the army and the police? Is this true or not?

A. No. As for the conflict between the KLA and the police, at that certain period, there was no conflict between the two parties, but the Serb forces were shelling the villages and were expelling Albanians from their homes.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you yourself in the statement talk about how some artillery weapons fired into the woods in Cicavica, that you don't know what it is that they hit. Do you know that there were KLA units on Cicavica as well as large groups of terrorists of the KLA? You yourself talked about this fighting.

A. Yes, that's true that at this checkpoint there were two tanks positioned in the direction of Cicavica, and they had a point that was visible to them. And regardless of whether there were KLA forces there or not, up to the village of Svinjare, because the Serbs, in the beginning, ⁹³⁸³ with their forces and heavy weaponry, they were shelling the villages in order to expel Albanians from their homes and to cause ethnic cleansing and to force them out to Albania.

Q. Very well. Mr. Krasniqi, you yourself state in one place that Serb forces, as you say, broke the resistance of the KLA and that you were withdrawing. So the KLA was engaged in fighting with our army and the police, and its resistance was broken, which means that they did fight. Is that so or isn't it? What else does it mean, the things that you're explaining? What else can they mean?

A. Yes, it's true that the KLA position in Kacanol, which was in the operational zone of Llap, and Bellanice was in the operational zone of Shala, and Serbian forces came and took these points. But I wasn't there, and I don't know what happened there because this is 20 kilometres away. And I never went to scout out the area above Studime e Eperme, and I wasn't a member of the KLA forces, so I have no information about what kind of fighting took place between Serbian forces and the KLA in these two operational zones. But I know that Serbian forces came and took vengeance on the population, because when --

JUDGE MAY: Time is limited. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And in your direction from Bajgora, you yourself talk about a zone of operations. Did the forces from Bajgora withdraw, as well as from Cecelija and other villages? Were they withdrawing from there together with the civilian population, together with you?

A. Your Honours, I mentioned -- I clearly mentioned that in Bajgora, ⁹³⁸⁴ in Meljanica, I was not in these locations. I only have a broader geographical knowledge regarding these places from before the war. But as for the Serb forces and their efforts to fight these points -- checkpoints, I don't have a clue. I don't have an idea.

Q. Did members of the KLA, while they were withdrawing, intermingle with the civilians? Is this true or not?

A. Your Honour, I said before that the KLA forces withdrew in the direction of Samadrexha, which is 15 kilometres away, when they came under pressure from Serbian forces, but not a single member of the KLA was with the population because they wanted to save the population and make a clear distinction from them. And these members of the population were shot at close range of one metre, one from one house, one from another family, and their average age was --

JUDGE MAY: Now, that's a separate point.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Did you yourself describe in your statement that while you were fleeing when our forces broke down the resistance of the KLA, panic broke out and large numbers of civilians were on the move. You even described an event where a tractor overturned and three people were killed in this accident. How many such cases were there with civilians being injured in the panic where tractors overturned or there were car accidents and things like that? Do you know about any cases like that? You described one such event as an eyewitness.

A. Yes. I know certain cases because I was present there. I mentioned that before the attack, at about 3.00, I met with Shaban and ⁹³⁸⁵ with other persons because the panic was there. They were young men, they were young women, and they all had the feeling that something bad was going to happen. And we all talked with Bajram and Shaban, and myself with Bajram Muqiqi. We decided to hand them over the white flag and to surrender so that they would open a corridor for us and prevent the worst. And that night, nobody died from accidents, from turnovers of tractors. They all died from execution, from massacres. And I also mentioned and I will mention it again that there were 109 victims in this night.

JUDGE MAY: We must concentrate on the questions. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Your time is coming up. You've got two or three more questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a few questions, quite a number of questions, actually, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you yourself were hurt when a tractor turned over; isn't that true?

A. No. The truth is what I already said. And the notes that you have are not correct. When I arrived there, the Serb forces arrived with Pinzgauers and a Serb soldier approached us and asked us, "What are you doing here?" I told them that my wife was sick and that I was helping her. And then they said, like, "There is no wife here. There is nothing you can do here."

Q. Just one moment. I'm asking you specifically.

JUDGE MAY: The question is how were you injured. You can tell us that. Just briefly, just briefly. ⁹³⁸⁶

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm quoting the witness. "At the moment of impact, I opened the door, attempting to get out, to jump out."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How is it that in the dark, you, in the middle of a column --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let him answer. How did you come to injure yourself? Just tell us very briefly, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The issue of myself being wounded is as it is described. And that soldier told me, "You don't know what a wedding party we will have here today."

JUDGE MAY: Can you please tell us how you were injured. Now, if you cannot do that, we must simply ignore your evidence.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To put it shortly, I was wounded when they shot a rifle grenade from the Pinzgauer, from a 25 to 30-metre distance. And I noticed when the soldier sitting at the Pinzgauer fired the rifle grenade. Then with my left hand, I turned the steering wheel, and with my right hand, I opened the door and I jumped. And at that moment, it exploded and it wounded me.

And before the wounding, before I fell down, one soldier asked for money, and he hit me on the head while my arm was broken because of the rifle grenade. And I also have a picture, please, that all this was committed or could come only from the Serb forces.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got five minutes, you have five minutes more. Five minutes more with this witness. ⁹³⁸⁷ It means that you will have had very nearly an hour.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So it happened so that you saw in the dark how a member of some paramilitary force, as you say, at the precise moment when he fired, you opened the door, and while this bullet was flying towards you as he fired it, you jumped out and that's how you were hurt there when the vehicle blew up. Is that what you're saying?

A. Although this question is not very clear, I explained clearly that the soldier fired with a rocket grenade from a Pinzgauer, firing either at the first tractor or the second, where I was. And he saw me, and he fired his rocket grenade. And I have these wounds. And you can find this testified by the medical authorities in Tirana. And this is quite clear. And the accused is only asking questions to suit himself, and the truth is that 109 people fell victim to Serbian terror and were shot by the army.

Q. Who did you see being killed by, as you say, Serb terror that night? What was -- what was it that you personally saw, which murders?

A. I saw victims. I saw after -- I saw near the tractor -- and Serbian forces stopped us and told us not to turn on the lights, but I saw people dead there, people who suffered this fate.

Q. And they told you not to turn any lights on so that you would not be visible and so that you would not be hit from the air. That's why you didn't put any lights on. How do you know who killed those people? How were those people killed? Except for those three who you saw whose tractor overturned and that's how they were killed. You didn't describe ⁹³⁸⁸ any other individual deaths here in your statement except for that.

A. On the 2nd of May, the execution began at 9.00 by the Serb forces. The Serb forces arrived from the left side, from the direction of Samadrexha, Vucitrn, and came through the sector of Shala, from the north, and they had their weapons there. They could kill whomever they chose. They had the weaponry. And we were innocent. And they had no reason not to obey because they would kill them. They would take their money.

JUDGE MAY: What you were asked is did you see anybody else killed. If so, could you tell us very briefly about that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I was wounded, I saw two people who were executed on the opposite side, at about four or five metres from the tractor. But I didn't see it clearly.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What did you see? Did you see them lying on the ground?

A. They were lying on the ground and their limbs were distorted.

Q. But you didn't see who killed them. You only saw two dead people on the ground; isn't that right?

A. Your Honours, I will repeat this once again. The Serbs demolished a lot, and they were very close. They were there with us on the opposite side. They were looting. They were killing. They were -- they outnumbered us. They were in large numbers.

Q. Very well. You say that the soldiers and the police officers were armed, and this is not in dispute. Policemen and soldiers carry weapons. Were the members of the KLA armed or not? In these events that you're describing, were members of the KLA armed or not? ⁹³⁸⁹

A. This is getting interesting, what the accused is saying. I mentioned before that the KLA soldiers left in the direction of Samadrexha and Dumnica because or for the safety of the population, and it is more than true that there was not a single armed KLA soldier amongst the population.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is up. Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions for this witness?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have three things that I would like to clarify with Mr. Krasniqi. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] The first is you said several times, during earlier questioning as well as today, that Serb forces had defeated the members of the KLA and that panic had broken out. Could you please tell me, while they were being defeated, were there any casualties among the KLA or not?

A. The question is not clear to me, please.

Q. If Serbian forces broke down the resistance of the KLA, as you said, probably there was fighting there. And was there any loss of life among the members of the KLA during that fighting or not?

A. Please, which incident are you talking about?

Q. At the time when you were in Gornja Studimlja with 10.000 people, and then this group later grew to 25.000 people. In your statement, on page 5, paragraph 2, you explained this in detail, and you repeated twice there what I have just told you. So on that occasion, were there any casualties among the members of the KLA? ⁹³⁹⁰

A. Are we talking about the 2nd of May or an event before that? Please go to the essence of the issue.

Q. Please. You have your statement here. This is on page 2.

JUDGE MAY: We cannot waste time. Do you know of any KLA casualties ? Just yes or no, Mr. Krasniqi, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were no victims amongst the KLA.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. There's your answer.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is all I wanted to hear, yes or no, Your Honours.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi's second statement -- in his second statement, he makes a correction. Mr. Krasniqi, you say that all of this happened when the Serb forces came above your village. There were -- this didn't happen on the 15th of March, but it should state the 15th of April. Is this right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Those forces who were there as you described it, were they wearing the uniforms or the insignia of the MUP, as you said?

A. On 14th of April, they came up to the school, the MUP itself with the MUP insignia. They recorded the school, they filmed the school in Studime e Eperme. The building was abandoned. There were no pupils in the school.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm just interested in whether they were wearing police uniforms.

A. They had. They had the police uniforms, the MUP uniforms. ⁹³⁹¹

Q. And then on the 15th of April, the tanks arrived. Were these tanks manned by soldiers or policemen?

A. Those tanks the MUP -- were directed by MUP up to the checkpoint in Rashica, and an excavator of orange colour opened or dug up a hole, and they continued to shell in the direction of Studime e Eperme.

Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. I'm interested in the following: Today in response to Mr. Saxon's question, before in your statement you said that these forces that took positions above your village were paramilitary units. Were they paramilitaries or were they soldiers and policemen?

A. They were soldiers, policemen, and paramilitaries. There were a lot of reservists mobilised at that time, and they all gathered together and they shelled houses and caused casualties. And we were quite unable to move or travel in any way.

Q. That's why I'm asking all of this. In your second statement, you say that the tank guns were pointed at Cicavica and that the shooting took place only at Cicavica on the 18th and 19th of April, 1999 -- 18th and 20th of April, 1999. And then on the 24th and 25th of April, the shooting took place against Gornja Studimlja, where there was only the KLA. The KLA was in the school in Gornja Studimlja, and it is only these directions that were targeted during those days, towards the hills. And then after that, you say towards the end, on the 17th or 18th, there was shooting directed at your village but there were no casualties. Is that right? This is how I would like to end my questions. Is that what you said?

A. That's true, yes, that they fired at the village of Studimlja ⁹³⁹² where both the population and the people were. But the school where the KLA was was a very low position. It was surrounded by hills, both there in Cecelia. But nevertheless, they shelled the roofs of various houses and various buildings there.

Q. However, it was where the KLA was.

A. Please. Where the KLA was, yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Krasniqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice. We ought to be brief because there is a break due.

MR. NICE: I'm in entirely in Your Honours' hands. I should think I have got about five, or perhaps a little more, minutes, partly in closed session, of issues to raise. One of the things I was going to do was, to at least give you the chance of having a courtesy copy of the motion that brings us up to date - I don't know how long it takes for motions once filed, as this one has been this morning, to reach you. It occurred to me it might be helpful for you to have this before the break. They were not in --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No translation] ⁹³⁹³

JUDGE MAY: Could the witness withdraw, please.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. NICE: If I provide this before the break, come and deal with this shortly after the break, would that be convenient?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, indeed.

MR. NICE: Perhaps I can also -- can I actually in forecast of what I -- in forecast of what I'll say later, can I, if you have the files immediately at hand, alert you to pages -- official page numbers of the transcript 669, 670, and 673. It touches on the witness Kevin Curtis, and there's just one thing I wanted to say about that, and it may help if you have an opportunity to look at those pages. And also -- no. The other matter, I must deal with it in closed session so I'll leave it to after the break.

JUDGE MAY: You're not going to return to Mr. Curtis, are you?

MR. NICE: Something I just want to --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁹³⁹⁴ Page 9394 redacted, private session.

⁹³⁹⁵ Page 9395 redacted, private session.

⁹³⁹⁶ Page 9396 redacted, private session.

⁹³⁹⁷

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, it does indeed relate very briefly to Mr. Curtis. Sorry. The other matter, Your Honour, does relate very briefly to Mr. Curtis. I'm not going to press the issue, but I was simply aware that in the filing we made, we hadn't perhaps drawn to your attention our understanding of the history as well as we might have done, which is revealed at the pages that I identified. I don't know whether you've had the chance to look at them in the short break. Probably not. But at pages 669, 670, and more materially 673, the amici offered no objection in principle to evidence about the means of investigation and Your Honour, in giving the ruling, indicated that the means of investigation, if of assistance to us, might have been available for evidence and I said we didn't intend to call the officer on that topic at this stage.

My concern - and again perhaps this wasn't fully expressed in the motion - is not only that Mr. Curtis is, as it were, to borrow a domestic analogy, the officer in the case who would typically deal with the arrest ⁹³⁹⁸ and just those formal matters but he is the witness who would be able to deal not only with what happened to the Prosecutor Louise Arbour, which might otherwise not be before the Court and of some significance because it shows an obstructive disposition on the part, it would be said, of the accused at a time when he shouldn't have been, but also he's in a position to deal with the very broad allegations that have been made periodically by the accused about the investigation and the investigators. Now, I know, of course, that allegations made by the accused unsubstantiated by evidence amount to nothing more than that, but he's been making the allegations from time to time. I'm afraid I haven't got my finger on one of the particular ones, but the Court will have them in mind. And because the integrity of the investigation and the -- to some degree the integrity of the witnesses whose statements were produced in that investigation has been attacked, it seemed to us it would be appropriate to call or to seek to call Mr. Curtis, only briefly, but really in his role as officer in the case.

He would, of course, also, although you've clearly had an opportunity to consider this and thus far rejected it, he would be able to deal with the arrest of the accused and to deal with the fact that the man was given his rights at all material times.

And since it was our shortcoming for not perhaps having spelt those matters out -- my shortcoming for not having spelt those matters out sufficiently clearly, I draw them to your attention.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Those matters, Mr. Nice, if I recall, were the subject of an earlier motion by the accused, and I think in large part ⁹³⁹⁹ were disposed of by the decision of the Chamber.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, that's why I drew to your attention the particular pages of the ruling. The first motion was much more focused on the whole business of summarising evidence, which is now being looked at and reviewed elsewhere, and perhaps these particular parts of the witness statement weren't focused on as much, and in any event, the final decision of the Chamber expressed by His Honour Judge May on that occasion, the Chamber being constituted as it was, appeared, to us, to allow for our calling the witness on the issue of the investigation should we so judge it, I at the time saying that we put the matter back for later consideration.

A small point but, in that narrow way, something I'd like you to consider.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that matter.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm much obliged. Mr. Saxon will call the next witness. I forecast it will take until the end of the morning. Even if it doesn't, I think that there will only be a small amount of time left and it may be the Chamber will not call the next witness until tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: While the witness is being called - if the usher would be kind enough to get the witness - there's another -- after this one, there is another 92 bis witness, I take it.

MR. NICE: Yes. Liri Loshi.

JUDGE MAY: There is then Mr. Golubovic; is that right?

MR. NICE: Yes. ⁹⁴⁰⁰

JUDGE MAY: There is then the general.

MR. NICE: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: How long is it anticipated he will take in chief?

MR. NICE: Well, of course, it's possible simply to tender him with his report, but I forecast probably half an hour with him in direct examination in order to set a few --

JUDGE MAY: And when can he be here?

MR. NICE: He's here now and he will be available tomorrow and into the following day.

JUDGE MAY: K41 you said on Thursday.

MR. NICE: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: The next one, Mr. Stijovic, we have to make a decision about.

MR. NICE: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And at that leaves Mr. Coo. In relation to that, there is an argument outstanding. We need to programme a time to hear the argument. The amici having put in a paper, the accused should be allowed to address us on that. We need to find time for it.

MR. NICE: Can I respectfully suggest that the way to deal with the argument, and I think we've responded to it already, might be simply at the beginning of his evidence and to go through the challenged passages, to get him, perhaps, indeed -- or to explain through him the answer that there may be to those objections.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[The witness entered court] ⁹⁴⁰¹

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: MEHDI GERGURI

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Sir, is your name Mehdi Gerguri?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Gerguri, were you born on the 10th of November, 1957?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you born in the village of Studime e Eperme in the municipality of Vushtrri in Kosovo?

A. Yes.

MR. SAXON: If I can say parenthetically for Your Honours, this witness again will deal with events around page 6 in the Kosovo atlas.

Q. Mr. Gerguri, is Studime e Eperme about six kilometres to the northeast of the town of Vushtrri?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 27th of February, 2000, did you provide a statement to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 9th of October, 2001, did you provide another statement to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you ⁹⁴⁰² witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 12th of March this year, 2002, in Vushtrri in Kosova, were you provided with copies of the statements that you gave in 2000 and 2001 in a language that you understand and in the presence of a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of this Tribunal?

A. No, I didn't receive a copy.

Q. Did you have the opportunity on that date to look at the copies of the statements that you had previously given to the Office of the Prosecutor?

A. Yes.

Q. And on that date, did you confirm that copies of your prior statements were true and accurate?

A. Yes.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would offer the statement of Mr. Gerguri for admission under Rule 92 bis.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit -- the original will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 306, under seal, and the redacted version will be 306A.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours, Mehdi Gerguri is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim. He describes how in February 1999, Serb forces began shelling his village Studime e Eperme. Many residents left the village and went to the town of Vushtrri, but Mr. Gerguri stayed with some of his relatives. There were around 50 to 60 KLA soldiers in the village, armed with light ⁹⁴⁰³ weapons and one heavy machine-gun.

In April 1999, many Kosovo Albanians displaced from the town of Vushtrri, Studime e Poshtme and other villages sought shelter in Studime e Eperme. Late in the afternoon of the 2nd of May, 1999, Serb paramilitaries approached Studime e Eperme from the north. As the Serbs advanced, they forced people from other villages to move towards Studime e Eperme. Eventually, a convoy of 20.000 to 25.000 people jammed the road leading from Studime e Eperme to Studime e Poshtme and on to the town of Vushtrri. Mr. Gerguri and his relatives joined the convoy at about 6.30 p.m.

Mr. Gerguri was told that two KLA soldiers who were present in Studime e Eperme on the 2nd of May, 1999, threw their weapons away, changed into civilian clothes, and joined the convoy with their families. These two KLA soldiers were not from the village of Studime e Eperme. By 8.00 p.m., the convoy had stopped moving and it was dark. Serb forces caught up with the convoy and began burning some tractors. As the Serb paramilitaries walked along the convoy, they extorted money and beat people. After Mr. Gerguri drove on a bit further, a second group of paramilitaries in armoured vehicles attacked his part of the convoy. A man in a car in front of Mr. Gerguri's tractor got out and began to run away and was shot by one of the paramilitaries. Another paramilitary came up to Mr. Gerguri, carrying a torch, and demanded Deutschmarks. After Mr. Gerguri gave the man 300 Deutschmarks, the man walked away a short distance, picked up a machine-gun and shot Mr. Gerguri in the arm and side. Mr. Gerguri recognised the man who shot him as a policeman who ⁹⁴⁰⁴ previously worked in the town of Vushtrri. Paramilitaries brought another refugee close to where Mr. Gerguri lay wounded and shot the man dead. After this group of paramilitaries moved on, Mr. Gerguri's family picked him up and carried him a short distance from the road. The following morning, Mr. Gerguri's relatives found him and brought him back to the village of Studime e Eperme. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Gerguri's wounded arm became gangrenous. On the 5th, Dr. Shukri Gerxhaliu amputated Mr. Gerguri's arm in a KLA field hospital in the village of Slakovac.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] In your statement, you said that: "In February 1999, the Serb army started shelling our village because this area was under KLA control." Is that correct?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. Where were the members of this terrorist group of the KLA stationed in your village?

A. In our village, they were at the school. The army was at the school.

Q. Is this the elementary school of Remzi Sylejmani?

A. Yes, in the village of Studime. There were 50 -- 55 or 56 soldiers, no more.

Q. 55 or 56, is that what you said? All right. In your statement, you say: "It was very dangerous to stay in our village, so almost all families left."

Tell me, what kind of activities did the KLA engage in in that ⁹⁴⁰⁵ area in respect of attacking the army, police? And generally speaking, what kind of activities was it engaged in?

A. That question is not clear to me. Can you shorten the question a bit because it's very long.

Q. Do you know in which fighting with the army and the police this unit of the KLA that you described took part in, that unit that you describe as consisting of 55 or 56 men?

A. The KLA didn't fight because there were a lot of civilians there, and the KLA left two hours before the offensive against the village of Studime.

Q. So they escaped before the army and the police came; right?

A. They went away, I wanted to say.

Q. And you say in your statement: "Neither I nor any member of my family were active members of the KLA." Could you explain this to me? What does "active member" mean?

A. We weren't soldiers. I wasn't in uniform. I helped the army with food and so forth, but I was never uniformed.

Q. Well, over here, many witnesses said that a large number of the KLA did not have uniforms at all, even up to the end of the war. Is that correct or is that not correct?

A. No, it's not true.

Q. Do you claim that all members of the KLA wore uniforms?

A. Those who were dressed in uniform did have a uniform, but those who were not did not.

Q. Very logical. Tell me, please, you say: "I helped by providing ⁹⁴⁰⁶ food" - you already explained that - "food and other supplies. And during the night, I was on watch duty." What kind of weapon did you use while you were keeping watch during the night?

A. There were probably four or five automatic guns, but there were not much weapons around at the time.

Q. All right. You personally, which weapons did you use when you kept watch? You didn't use five rifles. What kind of rifle did you use while you were keeping watch?

A. A .45 rifle.

Q. And who engaged you for this watch duty and also for providing food and other supplies for the KLA?

A. Nobody. It was my own free will.

Q. And where did you bring them, all these supplies that you provided them with?

A. Down to the school.

Q. Was Musaj Terbunja the commander of that unit?

A. Yes.

Q. Were these persons members of the staff, the headquarters of that unit: Bajram Terbunja, Ismet Terbunja, Bajram Bunjako, Mexhi Bunjako, Asaj Popova [phoen], Janush Gashi, Gerguri Ekrem. And number 8 is your name, Mehdi Gerguri. Is this correct, Mr. Gerguri, or is it not correct?

A. Ekrem Gerguri was not in uniform. The others were in uniform.

Q. You were the only one who did not wear a uniform; you only carried a rifle. Is that right?

A. When I went out on sentry duty for two hours during the night, I ⁹⁴⁰⁷ had a gun with me. But I wasn't uniformed, and this was only when I went out on guard duty.

Q. And this list that I just read out to you where your name also figures as members of the staff of that unit, is it your claim that you were not a member of the staff of that unit?

A. I wasn't mobilised, and I didn't stay at headquarters. I stayed at home.

Q. Is your father's name Abdulah?

A. [In Serbian] Yes.

Q. Here it says: "Gerguri, Mehdi. Father's name, Abdulah." That's what it says on this list. All right. You've said that it wasn't you, you were not a member of the staff.

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. All right. And do you know all the others whose names I read out to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, in connection with what you said at the beginning -- at the beginning of the war in Gornja Studimlja, there were only seven or eight combatants but this number went up to 50 or 60. That is what you referred to a few minutes ago when you said 55 or 56. And you also say that the KLA only had light weapons, Kalashnikovs, and one heavy machine-gun. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know all of these 50 or 60 members of the KLA from your village? ⁹⁴⁰⁸

A. No.

Q. How many of them do you know? You know all the ones that I mentioned to you. And out of these 50 or 60, how many did you know personally?

A. I do not know all of them except for five, six, or maybe seven of them.

Q. Well, here on the first list, there are seven of them and then you are number eight. All right. As for the police in Kosovska Mitrovica, on the 15th of May, 1999, you stated that these persons that you mention as members of the KLA, that you saw them in camouflage uniforms and armed with automatic rifles and that they were digging trenches there, inter alia. Is that correct or is that not correct?

A. The question is not clear to me.

Q. Were you in our police on the 15th of May, 1999, in Kosovska Mitrovica? Were you being questioned there?

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. So you were not there. And do you know anything about trenches in your village and who had dug them?

A. The people did.

Q. Did members of the KLA work there as well and also other villagers who were not members of the KLA? For example, did you personally participate in the digging of these trenches?

A. Yes, I participated. I helped.

Q. All right. That means that you were with this unit. You dug trenches. You were on guard duty during the night with a rifle. But you ⁹⁴⁰⁹ claim that you're not a member of the KLA; is that right?

A. I was not mobilised.

Q. All right. Were all the rest mobilised?

A. No. I said only five or six people had KLA uniforms; the others didn't.

Q. All right. But that's a different question altogether, whether somebody wore a uniform, and it's quite different as to the question whether they had all been mobilised.

A. No, they weren't.

Q. So the rest had not been mobilised either, just like you?

A. There were only volunteers, people who came of their own free will.

Q. All right. And you came of your own free will too, didn't you?

A. Yes, by my own free will.

Q. You said that the members of the KLA were beyond the reach of the Serb positions, and they could not respond with gunfire. On the basis of what did you conclude that they were well out of range of the Serb positions and were unable to return fire?

A. They didn't try to fire on the Serbian positions because they were a long way a way. Where they were in Rashica, it was about three kilometres away.

Q. All right. And when did the fighting take place, then, between that unit of yours and our army or police? At that moment, they were far away, so when did the fighting actually take place?

A. There was shelling from the Serbian side. ⁹⁴¹⁰

Q. Does that mean that it is your claim that the KLA did not shoot at all?

A. The KLA did not fire.

Q. All right. Tell me, in your statement, already on the first page in paragraph 5, you say: "In April 1999, quite a few people from Donja Studimlja escaped to Gornja Studimlja because of the shelling." What kind of shelling are you referring to?

A. From the shelling by the Serbs. They were firing.

Q. All right. A few minutes ago at the very outset, you answered that, "The Serb army shelled our village because this area was under KLA control." That's what you said; right?

A. It was under their control.

Q. Well, the fact that our forces were shooting, doesn't that mean that there was fighting between our forces and the KLA forces and that this was part of the fighting?

A. No, because the KLA did not fire. They were a long way away.

Q. All right. And do you know that in April 1999, NATO aeroplanes bombed the villages around Vucitrn, Gornji Stanovci, Velika Reka Smrkovnica and other villages? Do you know about that?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember an event when a NATO bomb fell in the Cakaj neighbourhood and that a crater which was created was over five metres wide and 1.5 metres deep?

A. No, I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember when the Velika Reka village was hit, which is ⁹⁴¹¹ across from Gornji Stanovci, after which the villagers had to leave the village and go towards Cecelija at the top of Shala? So this was after NATO bombing. They had to flee from their village. Do you remember that?

A. No, I don't remember. I know that NATO only -- I know that it struck Samadrexha and Lazovic, but I don't know about any other incidents.

Q. And do you say that on the 2nd of May, 1999, around 1700 hours, Serb paramilitary formations came from the north. They passed through the villages of Skrovna, Bozhlan, Gumniste, and Pasoma. This is in the municipality of Vucitrn. And people were leaving their homes at that time. Is that so or isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you please tell me, then, as they were approaching you, actually from the direction of Bajgora, Pasoma, Cecilia and other places that are to the north from you, whether at that time KLA units were withdrawing together with the civilian population. Is that the case or not?

A. No. The KLA left, withdrew, while the population joined the convoy.

Q. So the villagers joined the convoy of the KLA fighters who were withdrawing. Is that true?

A. No. The KLA did not join the convoy. Only the population did.

Q. All right. So this convoy coincides with Izet Krasniqi, the previous witness, who said that this withdrawal began when, at the beginning of May, our forces broke down the resistance of the KLA. Was there panic, significant panic then among the population? ⁹⁴¹²

A. No, there was no panic.

Q. And how many members of the KLA joined this convoy of civilians who were withdrawing after the defeat of the KLA?

A. Only two were in the convoy, and they were without weapons and without uniforms.

Q. How many people were in the convoy altogether?

A. To my opinion, there were between 20.000 and 25.000 people in the convoy, and the convoy could have been even larger.

Q. All right. How can you, Mr. Gerguri, know that only two members of the KLA joined these 20.000 to 25.000 people and not more? There was this movement and withdrawal after the resistance of the KLA was broken to the north of you.

A. To my knowledge, there were only two of them, and these two were not armed, and they were dressed in civilian dress.

Q. All right. It is well known that they threw away their weapons and took off their uniforms when they were fleeing, but who organised the movement of the convoy? Was the movement of the convoy organised by the KLA?

A. No.

Q. Who organised this movement of 20.000 to 25.000 people?

A. The movement was organised in itself.

Q. By itself. All right. And do you know that there was a KLA headquarters in Cecelija which covered the villages of Kurilovo, Slakovac and Meljanica?

A. No. I wasn't there. I was only in my village. I haven't been to ⁹⁴¹³ Cecelia, I haven't been to Sllakofc, I haven't been to these other villages.

Q. Did you hear of the name Gani Imeri?

A. I've heard this name but I do not know this person.

Q. And what did you hear? What do you know about Gani Imeri?

A. I've heard that he was commander.

Q. So he was a commander of the Cecelija, Kurilovo, Slakovac and Meljanica unit, the one that you didn't hear about and that you don't know anything about; is that right?

A. I don't know anything else. I can only say things I know about the village of Studime.

Q. Do you know that in the village of Pasoma, which is close to your village, there was another terrorist KLA unit which numbered over 100 soldiers and which was commanded by Ali Januzi?

A. I don't know.

Q. And have you heard the name Ali Januzi before?

A. No.

Q. All right. Since you don't know anything about that, then I assume that there is no point in reading out to you the names of the members of that unit.

In your statement, on page 2, you say that the road between Gornji and Donja Studimlja was completely crammed with cars, tractors, freight vehicles, families that were walking towards Vucitrn, between 20.000 and 25.000 people, and you moved for 16 hours -- until 16 hours. Why were you moving only until 16 hours? ⁹⁴¹⁴

A. Because the Serb forces entered and we were forced to leave our houses.

Q. All right. In your statement, in the corrections that you made in the second statement, as far as I understand - this is on page 3 - you say: "I did not personally see any armoured vehicles in the column, which is incorrectly stated in my previous statement." And then you say: "Since it was dark, I don't remember seeing a single blue MUP vehicle. I don't remember seeing camouflage blue uniforms of the MUP. I did not see any regular VJ being involved in the killings in the convoy massacre." You're speaking about the massacre in the column. "They were stationed in Gornja Studimlja prior to the convoy being formed. I don't know where the army, Yugoslav army, went after being stationed in Gornji -- in Donja Studimlja."

So you didn't see the police. You didn't see the army. You claim that somebody attacked the convoy. Who attacked the convoy, Mr. Gerguri?

A. The Serb forces attacked the convoy. There were paramilitaries in civilian uniforms. The police who shot at me, he was wearing a police uniform. And two soldiers, they were dressed in a uniform as well.

Q. How can I connect that to what I read to you a little while ago from your statement, that you did not see any police officers in blue camouflage uniforms, that there were no soldiers, but now you are stating the opposite of what it says here. Can you explain something of that to me? I was only quoting you. I didn't --

JUDGE MAY: To be fair to the witness, what you've just quoted refers to camouflage. So I'm not sure there really is any inconsistency. ⁹⁴¹⁵

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was driving the tractor when the convoy was stopped by the Serb paramilitaries, and the police came off the armoured personnel carrier and came straight to my tractor, pointed his torch in the direction of my eyes, and ordered me to get off.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. Gerguri. So the police came out of the armoured vehicle and pointed a flashlight towards you. And here you say: "I personally did not see any armoured vehicles in the convoy, and this has been incorrectly stated in my previous statement." And then in parentheses, it says, "(as in the original)." So, please, can you tell me, did you or did you not see any APCs? You gave corrections here but now you're coming back to the story about the APC and the police officer who came out of the vehicle. And here I read something to you from your statement on page 3, that, "I did not see a single APC, which was incorrectly stated in my previous statement." So can you please explain that Mr. Gerguri?

A. The truth is that there was an APC, and when he pointed the torch in my direction and ordered me to get off, he asked for money. I gave him 300 Deutschmarks. Then the policeman went back to the APC and took the weapon from there, and I heard when he prepared the weapon. I heard the sound. There were four civilians with masks. There were also two soldiers wearing uniforms, and they had gun --

Q. All right, Mr. Gerguri. I am quoting to you this event that you said: "One of the members of the paramilitary formations was carrying a pistol and a flashlight. He came to the tractor, shined the flashlight on ⁹⁴¹⁶ me and ordered me to get off the tractor. I had 300 German marks and I gave them to him." Then he said, "Turn around," and then you said that he went to get a machine-gun in order to kill you; is that right? So then he went to get the machine-gun to kill you; is that right?

A. That's right. He fired in a burst of four bullets; two in my hand and two in my body, and I have the scars today.

Q. And can you explain to me, Mr. Gerguri, why did he go if he wanted to kill you? Why did he go to get a machine-gun when you yourself said that he was carrying a pistol in his hand? If he wanted to, couldn't he have killed you?

A. Perhaps he thought that the machine-gun had more bullets and that he wouldn't be able to kill me with a pistol.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now, Mr. Milosevic, it's time. Now, have you more questions for this witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say, Mr. May, there is no need to hold this witness over for tomorrow. Everything is quite clear. I have no further questions for him and we can finish with him, please.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

A. That's not clear to me. Could you repeat it again, please.

Q. [Interpretation] Awhile ago, in response Mr. Slobodan Milosevic's questions, you said that the villages Samodreza and Lazovici were hit by NATO bombs. Did I understand you correctly? ⁹⁴¹⁷

A. Yes. NATO bombed the positions where the Serbs were, the army, where it was stationed at Lazovic, not at Samadrexha which is two kilometres away.

Q. Was the actual village Lazovici hit or not?

A. No. There were only three bombs that fell. One fell on the asphalt road and the others on houses, but it was only -- they fell together; it was only one attack.

Q. Civilian houses.

A. Yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: Given the hour, Your Honour, I have a few questions for this witness. I don't believe he has plans to fly back to his home today. Could he simply come back tomorrow morning? Otherwise, I'll take about five minutes.

JUDGE MAY: We will have to adjourn. Mr. Gerguri, could you come back, please, for a few minutes' questioning tomorrow, 9.00. Could you remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence meanwhile, and that includes the members of the Prosecution.

We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

September, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.