⁹⁴¹⁸

Tuesday, 3 September 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: MEHDI GERGURI [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Mr. Gerguri, yesterday during cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic and again during questioning by Mr. Tapuskovic, you mentioned that NATO planes dropped bombs on or near the village of Lakovica in the municipality of Vushtrri. Approximately, if you know, on what date did the NATO planes bomb Lakovica?

A. I don't know the date. It was about -- about the 15th of May.

Q. So that would be about 12 or 13 days after you were wounded in the large convoy that left the village of Studime e Eperme on the 2nd of May; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Mr. Gerguri, to your knowledge, before the 2nd of May, 1999, did NATO planes bomb anywhere else close to your village of Studime e Eperme?

A. No.

Q. On the 2nd of May, before the convoy began to move away from your village of Studime e Eperme, did you see any NATO planes or any other ⁹⁴¹⁹ planes dropping any bombs?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. On the 2nd of May, 1999, after the convoy left the village of Studime e Eperme, did you see any NATO planes or any other planes dropping any bombs?

A. No, I didn't see anything of that kind. Movements in the air, but there was no bombing.

Q. While you travelled in that convoy, did you hear or feel any explosions caused by bombs dropped from the air?

A. No, because I was wounded. I wasn't able to see anything.

Q. Moving on to another topic, Mr. Milosevic suggested that there might have been more than two KLA members travelling in that convoy on the 2nd of May, 1999, and he read you the names of some people who were allegedly part of the KLA units in that area.

Tell me, when the Serb forces attacked your part of the convoy, did any of the Serb forces attempt to search your tractor and trailer for weapons or for KLA members?

A. No. They didn't search anything. They just killed people.

Q. At that time, did any of the Serb forces ask you or anyone else near you for your name or your identity documents?

A. No. They didn't ask me anything like that. They just asked for money from me. I gave them money and ...

Q. The Serb policeman who ordered you to get off your tractor and give him money, did he ask to see your identity documents?

A. No, just money. He didn't ask for any documents. ⁹⁴²⁰

Q. Before this policeman shot you, did he search your tractor or trailer?

A. No.

Q. Mr. Gerguri, did this policeman or any other member of the Serb forces that you saw on the night of 2nd of May, 1999, show any interest at all in determining which persons in the convoy were civilians and which persons in the convoy might have been members of the KLA?

A. No.

MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gerguri, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: The next witness?

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. I propose the next witness to be Dr. Liri Loshi. He is a 92 bis witness, however, I will be requesting leave of the Court to expand the summary by adding a slightly less than four-minute videotape that has been the subject of comment, and we have edited a tape that was over an hour to less than four minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. There's been examination about that tape from other witnesses.

MR. RYNEVELD: Exactly, so I'm seeking leave of the Court to play that at the end.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. ⁹⁴²¹

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, it might be convenient, while we're waiting for the witness, to deal with various other applications which have been made.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: There will be leave to call Mr. Stijovic and Mrs. Simic. Both of those deal with relevant matters. There will be leave to admit Fetije Imeraj under Rule 92 bis. She deals with matters which have been in evidence to do with Padaliste. However, there will have to be cross-examination were her evidence to be admitted.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm much obliged.

JUDGE MAY: Can we have the witness, please.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: LIRI LOSHI

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

Q. Dr. Loshi, do I understand correctly, sir, that you are a medical doctor who lived in the area of Izbica during March of 1999 and that it's your familiarity with what happened in that area that brought you to court today?

A. That's right. ⁹⁴²²

Q. Now, sir, did you attend Izbica on the 31st of March, 1999, and did you participate in identifying the victims and videotape the scene of the massacres of the 28th of March at Izbica?

A. Yes.

Q. Sir, do I understand that you are currently 42 years old, that you are of Kosovo Albanian Muslim background, and you're originally from the village of Padaliste; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Sir, prior to the conflict, how long had you practised medicine?

A. Before the conflict started, I had been involved in medicine for about eight to ten years. And if you add the two years of the war, that makes ten years in all.

Q. Thank you. Now, just a couple of other questions by way of preliminaries, sir. Do I understand, sir, that you moved from your home in June of 1998, and can you tell us very briefly why it was that you did not continue to move -- to live in your home in June of 1998.

A. I didn't stay in my own home because it had been burnt round about 15th of June, and I had nowhere to live. The other thing was that in my village, after my house was burnt, there were various other houses burnt. I was in great danger because the asphalted road over which the Serbian military forces passed was very close to the village, and in fact passed by the village, so it was very dangerous for me to continue my work as medical doctor in that village.

Q. Very briefly, I understand, sir, that after your home was burned, you then travelled around in the area and lived with friends in other ⁹⁴²³ villages, practising medicine in the various small villages in the Srbica/Skenderaj area; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. Now, sir, did you give statements to investigators of the ICTY on both the 19th of May, 1999, the 22nd of May, 1999, and then again statements on the 25th of September, 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. And, sir, did you also appear before an officer of the Tribunal on the 18th of June, 2002, review those statements in your native Albanian language, and confirm that the contents of those statements were true and accurate to the best of your information and belief?

A. Yes, that's correct.

MR. RYNEVELD: Might those statements, the bis'ing package as we call it, Your Honours, be given an exhibit number and entered into evidence at this time. And perhaps if we could get a number, then I'll start reading while they're being distributed.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 307 for the original, under seal, and Prosecutor's Exhibit 307A for the public redacted version.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam Registrar. With the Court's permission, I'll read while that's being handed. Your Honours, the witness describes in his statements how various villages in the area around Srbica were attacked by Serb forces on various dates in March 1999 and notes that by the 25th of March, thousands of refugees had assembled in an open field in Izbica. He heard about the ⁹⁴²⁴ massacre in Izbica by speaking to some of the women who were forced to leave.

The witness's statements indicate that on the 31st of March, 1999, he subsequently attended Izbica along with Sefedin Thaci and others, where he assisted in the recording of a videotape of the bodies found in the village of Izbica. The video camera was operated by Sefedin Thaci under instruction from Dr. Loshi. The original videotape was apparently handed over by the witness to an investigator, Tait-Harris, of the ICTY while he was in Tirana, Albania, on the 18th of May, 1999. The witness, in his statement, explains how the video was made and states that this tape was the original version and had not been edited, added to, or altered in any way.

The witness relates that the tape was filmed showing most of the bodies in the locations that they were found. The tape shows their faces, where possible, for identification purposes, together with the injuries on the bodies. The tape also shows the size of the burial site and depicts three of the survivors re-enacting the massacre to illustrate what took place. The statement describes in detail what is shown on each relevant frame of the video, the name of the victim where known, and describes the clothing worn.

On the 22nd of May, 1999, in Tirana, Albania, the witness handed over to investigator Kevin Curtis a list detailing the names of the 127 people buried in Izbica which had been compiled with the assistance of Afrim Xhemajli.

Now, during the course of this evidence, the witness -- we will ⁹⁴²⁵ also be asking to mark a videotape which bears a number V000-1733. From this videotape, still photographs were produced showing both the massacre scenes and the bodies. They are contained in the Izbica binder which has been made available to Your Honours and has been marked as an exhibit. In addition, the Prosecution has now edited that tape to show approximately slightly less than four minutes out of Exhibit 1733, to show highlighted portions of the video.

I propose to show the witness this four-minute tape, and it shows four - and I'm now told actually five - scenes. The first scene shows the first group of victims where they were found. And I pause here to say you've heard one witness who testified about that first group. Then there is a short break in the film, purposely to separate the scenes, and we then see the second group of victims - and I pause here to say that you've also heard a witness who testified about being a survivor of that second group - followed by a brief view of the large meadow where the people had been assembled. You will then see the remnants -- you will see the remnants of the tractors and the debris left behind. The tape then pans to the third group of victims; and also at the very end, there's a very small segment of the actual burial site. All that is still within four minutes.

Now, Your Honours, I could play the tape here, but I think I will finish with the summary, if I may.

The witness also explains in his statement that while in Tirana, Albania, he was contacted by an American organisation called Witness, a human rights organisation based in New York. They provided him with a ⁹⁴²⁶ digital video camera and asked him to produce film for them upon his return to Kosovo.

He returned to Kosovo on the 22nd of June, 1999, and attended the village of Padaliste in the municipality of Istok on the 24th of June, 1999 where he went to the house of Bek Imeraj. He was accompanied by Zenel Loshi, a cousin; a Xhavit Dragaj from Lecina; Ramadan Dragaj, a KLA soldier also from Lecina.

Seven badly decomposed bodies were found in and around the yard of Bek's house which he then videotaped using the digital video camera. The witness also visited and videotaped the house of Daut Imeraj and Zenun Imeraj, whose wives were killed.

On the 25th of September, 2001, the witness handed over to investigator Dagsland of the OTP that original videotape pertaining to the Padaliste village. Again he indicates that it was not edited or altered in any way.

I pause here to say, Your Honours, we had originally planned on putting that tape in through Dr. Loshi but you've already seen that during the evidence, I believe of Mrs. Imeraj, when we fast forwarded portions of it, you may recall that, just last week. So I believe it's already been made an exhibit.

During proofing, Dr. Loshi explained that as a medical practitioner in the Izbica area, he knew and had treated some of the victims of the massacre in Izbica prior to the 28th of March, 1999. So he knew them. He had also treated some members of the KLA from time to time, and in August of 1998, he himself became a member of the KLA but did not ⁹⁴²⁷ personally participate in armed combat.

At this point, Your Honours, I would propose to ask the video booth to play that edited tape that I have made reference to.

[Videotape played]

MR. RYNEVELD: We're now seeing, Your Honours, that first group of bodies.

There's a break here, Your Honours, to distinguish the groups. Here's now the second group.

This is the field, Your Honours, referred to, and you will see the debris and the burnt-out tractors and cars that are left behind after the 5.000 some-odd people left this area.

Panning now to the third group. And finally, Your Honours, what I understand is a very brief overview of the scene where the burial took place. Thank you.

Q. Very briefly, Dr. Loshi, you've had an opportunity, as we all did, to see this very brief edited tape. Do you recognise the scenes from this edited video as being part of the videotape that you provided to investigators of the OTP?

A. Yes.

Q. And although obviously very shortened, are these scenes that we have seen true and accurate depictions of what you saw on the days that you took the video?

A. Everything that was filmed was true.

Q. Couple -- just a couple of other -- ⁹⁴²⁸

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, Mr. Ryneveld. Before we go on, that video should have a separate exhibit number if it hasn't one already.

MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I propose that we mark it with an A following whatever number we -- no. I'm sorry. Excuse me.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. RYNEVELD: I was under the impression we had already marked that original tape as an exhibit and we haven't, so please. We could mark the original tape as an exhibit and give a new number to this one.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, a new exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 308.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Q. Doctor, very briefly, from your experience as a medical doctor when you arrived on the scene, were you able to determine, just by looking at it, how these individuals met their death?

A. First I must say that I talked to various women that I met in the village of Tushile where they had taken shelter and who had came with that group, having been divided from their husbands and with the wives of the executed men, and they had told me what had happened at Izbica. Then I went to two days later, on the 31st of March, and when I saw the bodies, I had in front of me -- I had -- I'd already had a conversation with the women, so it was more than clear to me that this had been a massacre committed by the armed forces, in this case the Serbian forces. However, also as a doctor, I could see that all the bodies filmed on the scene of the event where the execution took place, and you can see the manner in which they're dressed, their shoes which were not taken off ⁹⁴²⁹ at all; in other words, it's very clear that they went from one part of the village to the other. And I saw bloodstains at that same place where the bodies were, and the bodies were -- had signs of execution with gunshots. You could see from the appearance of their faces and other parts of their body that the -- they had been shot from very close range. This could be seen from the wounds on their faces, and their faces were generally totally destroyed and shattered as would happen from close-range fire. And I had no doubt, I had not a single doubt that all these bodies had been massacred by Serbian military forces.

Q. Sir, just --

A. It was --

Q. Dr. Loshi, I'm not asking you the -- who the perpetrators were. I'm simply asking you whether you could tell whether, for example, these people died as a result of drowning or as a result of gunshot wounds or -- that's what I'm after here. You've already told us you saw that they died from gunshot wounds; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. And from what you saw at the scene, could you determine whether these bodies appear to have died where they were -- where you saw them and videotaped them or did they appear to have been moved to that location or are you able to say?

A. I replied to this question before, but I'll repeat this. I have no doubt that those bodies had been executed in the place where we found them and where we filmed them, as you see in the video. There was no sign to show that the bodies had been carried from one -- from another place. ⁹⁴³⁰

Q. Thank you.

MR. RYNEVELD: Just one other question, Your Honours, that is not related to his statements but something that this witness may be able to assist, and I'll ask it now rather than wait for re-direct.

Q. Sir, did you know a Sadik Xhemajli?

A. Yes.

Q. And this Sadik Xhemajli, do you know whether or not he wore corrective lenses and whether or not Mr. Xhemajli's corrective lenses, well, actually looked like sunglasses or dark-coloured glasses? Do you know that?

A. Yes, I know. This person has trouble with one eye. In his left eye is damaged, and other eye problems, and so the doctor has prescribed glasses for him. And I know that this person wears glasses to protect him from the sun. And not only for functional reasons but also for the sake of appearance.

Q. All right. Sir, to the best of your knowledge, does he wear those wherever he goes?

A. All the time. Wherever he goes, yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. RYNEVELD: Those would be the questions. I just wonder, Your Honours, that -- Your Honours appreciate that these are two separate tapes. The Izbica tape was taken at a different time than the Padaliste tape, which was marked earlier, and so they are two different massacre sites.

And the other thing is that at the back of the bis package, there ⁹⁴³¹ are apparently a couple of additional pages which were not intended to be part of it. They appear to be some pages which are part of the proofing binder which accidentally found their way into the bis'ing package, but they -- these are pages that refer to the witness's name but are not part of his statement. They are in, fact, pages of other witnesses' statements that make reference to it. So somehow they found their way into the bis'ing package, and I just thought I should bring that to your attention that they're really not his statement, they're statement of others. You can see that at the top of the pages, "Statement of" and then another name.

JUDGE MAY: I don't seem to have got that. It's not in my copy, but it may be several pages in from the back. But in any event, we have it.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are my questions of this witness at this time. Thank you, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ryneveld explained that this witness - I wrote down exactly what he said - carried out the taping of the scene of the massacre of the 28th of March -- May. When did you tape this?

A. This footage was filmed on the 31st of March and 1st of April of 1999.

Q. Very well. So you claim that the massacre took place on the 28th of March, and you claim that you taped this on the 31st of March, three days later, based on what you claim, that a massacre took place at all. ⁹⁴³²

A. Based on what I've seen with my own eyes on the 30th of March in the evening, on the 31st of March and 1st of April, when we conducted the filming.

Q. You saw some dead people, but you don't know how they died. It is not in dispute that these people are dead, but it is in dispute how these people died. How do you know how they died?

A. The database that I provided for this Court proves clearly that these people, not only they were dead but they had been executed.

Q. I don't know what this argument "proves clearly." What does that mean? I'm asking you: What are you basing your claims on, "the argument clearly shows"? What does it mean, "clearly shows"? This is not clear to me, for example.

A. Considering that I knew the circumstances of the period back then, since I was living in Izbica, and also I was very close to Izbica when the event happened and I was together with people who left on the very day of the massacre, that is, on the 28th of March. I contacted people who left the group where men, women, and children were together and where men were separated by women [as interpreted]. I was referring to the conversations I had with them, and my going to the village of Izbica two days later, on the 30th of March, and the views that I came across, what I saw, I saw that they corresponded with the accounts of the women who had been separated from the group and had told me. I verified that these bodies had been shot and all these persons had been shot by the Serb military forces.

Q. Very well. Very well, Mr. Loshi. That's where we are. You are ⁹⁴³³ proving this through some circumstances that you are claiming, through something that happened. And how does this look, these circumstances? Let me read your statement.

On page 3, you claim that on the 20th of March, 1999 -- this is the third passage on the third page in the Serbian version. "On the 20th of March, 1999, members of the Serbian army, police, and paramilitaries surrounded the town of Srbica. During this action, I know that 16 civilians were killed in several incidents in the town." This is what you claim in your statement: Surrounded Srbica, incidents in the town, 16 civilians. And now may I read --

MR. RYNEVELD: If it assists, page -- I believe page 3 of the 31-page statement, about halfway the page.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: It's the statement of - so we have it - the 23rd to the 25th of September of 2001. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This is what you claim, and this is what happened on the 20th of March, 1999: "At 5.00 a.m., 20th of March, 1999, there are official reports and documents about this. At 500 hours, a terrorist attack was carried out from infantry weapons at the police station in Srbica against -- against members of the army of Yugoslavia. On that occasion, serious injuries were sustained by a police member, Zoran Rakocevic, born in 1967. He succumbed to these injuries and died the next day, on the 21st of March in the hospital in Pristina. And Zoran Gemaljevic, born in 1969, ⁹⁴³⁴ was lightly wounded."

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you reading. This is cross-examination and not the reading into the record of events. You must ask the witness if he knows something about this before you go on.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, if a very well-known incident, a terrorist attack on a police station --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you to stop the argument. Remember you're asking the witness questions. Now, ask him if he knows about the attack on the police station. If you don't, I will. And let's hear his account of it. He may know something about it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May and --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this argument.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- Judges Robinson and Kwon --

JUDGE MAY: Dr. Loshi, you've heard what the accused alleges; that there was an attack on the police station that morning. Now, can you assist us about that? Do you know anything about this attack? Can you confirm that such an attack took place or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm such an attack having happened because, given all the information I had back then, and I mean on the 20th of March, the day when I contacted the people who had been displaced from the town of Skenderaj, I met those people in Turicevc where I was practising my profession as a doctor. I do not have the slightest bit of information or there was not even mention of an attack having been conducted by the Albanian army or something like that. All I ⁹⁴³⁵ know is that on the 20th of March, sometime before 5.00 -- or probably between the 19th and 20th of March, as soon as the Kosovo Verification Mission of the OSCE left Kosovo, the Serb forces came in and conducted this massacre on the civilian population, where 16 persons were killed, where, as I mentioned in my statement --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Dr. Loshi, I'm going to stop you now. We were dealing with the attack on the police station.

Mr. Milosevic, he says he doesn't know. He can't confirm it. Now, it may be your case that there was such an attack on the police station and that this led to fighting. You can certainly put, of course, that there was fighting, but -- just a moment. Let me finish. But what you can't do is give a lot of evidence. It's the witness who is giving evidence at the moment, not you.

Now, you can put questions to him, of course, but it's no good repeating that there was an attack on the police station; he can't confirm that. You can, in due course, put evidence in front of us about that. But go on asking him questions, of course, about what happened.

JUDGE KWON: So, Dr. Loshi -- just a second. Just a second, please.

The events on 20th of March, 1999, is that what you heard from people rather than what you saw yourself?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am based on what I have heard from other people. And on the same day, meaning the 20th of March, from people who were there on the critical day of the event. I was 12 kilometres -- approximately 12 kilometres away from Skenderaj, and that's how I could ⁹⁴³⁶ not have seen what happened with my own eyes.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Liri, I cited to you the event of the 20th of March in Srbica only because on the 20th of March you said that something quite incorrect happened in Srbica on the 20th of March. So at the same time and the same place that you're testifying about, I'm saying that what you are saying is not true. Are you deliberately making this up or did others tell you to do that, Mr. Liri?

A. I am mature enough to know that I do not need lessons from anybody in this case, I do not need suggestions from you. I am telling what I was told by people who saw this massacre with their own eyes, and this was simply a massacre on the civilian population.

Q. So you claim that there was no terrorist attack on the police station that day but there was a massacre of the civilian population.

A. According to all the information that I collected and the conversations I have conducted with witnesses, I state that that day there was no attack whatsoever on the Serbian police station in Skenderaj.

Q. Excellent. And let's go back to the video footage that you taped. You saw some people who are dead. I have many questions. How do you know that these people were not brought there? In your film footage, there are no pools of blood or anything like that around the dead bodies that you filmed. How can you prove that these bodies were not brought there?

A. If one takes a careful look at them, bloodstains can be clearly ⁹⁴³⁷ seen in the places where we filmed the footage, meaning at the site where the dead bodies were lying. However, considering that only one day before that, that is on the 27th of March, I was in Izbica -- I mean, this is the date when I left Izbica, actually, and also considering the fact that I had contacted many of the people who I then found lying dead on the 30th of March in Izbica, how could I not assert that people had been shot in Izbica? And we found the bodies of people we used to know, and many of those people I recognised, and I used to know them before myself, personally.

So I had a chance to spend time, and to me, the same people on the previous dates, 25th, 26th of the same month, and they're the same people who I found lying dead, shot in the same village two, three days later.

Q. Since you very frequently use the word "clear" and obviously it's all very clear to you, it wasn't clear to others. For example, would you kindly comment the following as written by Jonathan Landy, staff writer of the Christian Science Monitor. He's talking about what Jan Bjorken [phoen] told him, an investigator of Amnesty International looking into Izbica, and he's saying the following: "[In English] Others recount how bodies of individuals killed around the area by Serbian police were brought to Izbica for burial. What is disturbing is that one person I talked to said they had buried the person who they named in Izbica, she continues, but I talked to another person who named the person, same person, and said, We buried him in the woods. Finally, she asks --" she meaning Jan Bjorken Amnesty International investigator -- asks, and again quotations: "People from the area, without direct knowledge, identified ⁹⁴³⁸ that as the location of a KLA graveyard. So it is tricky." [Interpretation] So those who investigated this event also, as you can see, had many questions. But let's come back to this. Let's not even say that in this article they're talking about --

JUDGE MAY: I've told you this before: You cannot simply read things out and then move on as if you were giving the evidence. You're not giving evidence, you're asking questions. You must give the witness the opportunity to deal with that quotation that you read out from a journalist, Christian Science Monitor.

Just let me finish. Now, Dr. Loshi, I don't know if you follow what was read out, but the suggestion seems to be that at least one person was moved and is described as being tricky and there was identification of the location of a KLA graveyard. You've heard that. This is what the journalist said. Is there any comment upon that that you would like to make?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say that I personally have read different things about the Izbica case. I'm trying to give my comment on the question put by Mr. Milosevic and by yourself, Your Honour. I talked about the film made of the massacred bodies at the place of the incident, but I didn't say anything about the burial of the 127 bodies of whom I brought a list here to this court. And it has not been said that in this entire group of shot people, or who were killed in various ways, they were all from the three main groups that we've been talking about, which means that there were three groups of people shot, whom we saw with our own eyes and whom we filmed. And among these 127 ⁹⁴³⁹ people who were buried in the village of Izbica, there were also some individuals brought from other places. They had come from other places but they were still killed in Izbica.

And as for the graveyard, it was the KLA graveyard. It was prepared in a mixed -- in a way which brought together members of the population and the KLA, because there were a very few number of people in this -- in Izbica at this time, and this involved a lot of cooperation between the KLA and the members of the civilian population in order to be able to bury the bodies, remembering that Serbian forces were still concentrated only one kilometre away.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So that means that it was the KLA graveyard where members of the KLA were buried who had died in battle fighting our forces. And what then? So what? Where do you find your massacre there? Why did you think up the firing squad? You've thought that up, the liquidation, execution. It never happened. It never existed. Isn't that so, Mr. Liri?

A. I explained very clearly, and I can explain again, but I will not deal with these comments. My comment from everything that I have seen is that there was a massive murder of the civilian population there, of men mostly quite advanced in age. And it is not true that these were graves of the KLA in which the members of the KLA who were killed had been buried. It was a mass grave prepared by the civilian population, but I mentioned the army too because this was an operation to bury all these victims within two days with the dignity that they deserved. ⁹⁴⁴⁰

Q. Mr. Liri, this endless repetition of lies won't give you the truth in the end. Please --

JUDGE MAY: That is also a comment. Now, you've put it to him that he's lying. He's dealt with it. Let us move on to something else.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a basic issue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You have just said that a massacre was committed there. Now, did you see that massacre take place? Did you see any execution take place there? What are you testifying about at all?

You say that you got there three days later and filmed some dead bodies in a field, in a meadow. Did you see how those people were killed?

A. I said that I saw the killed people two days later. And on the third day, we started with the filming, the identification, and the burial. I explained very clearly what I saw with my own eyes. I didn't see the moment of execution because if I had, I would have been among them, and I would have been buried with them, and I wouldn't be able to testify in front of you.

Q. Oh, come on. Well, Milazim Thaci, who you yourself mentioned -- you mentioned Milazim Thaci yourself. He said here that he was shot from a heavy machine-gun but that God saved him. He had three bullet holes in his shirt and he said God saved him but not his shirt. And now you're mentioning him and bringing him up as a witness. As you can see, he himself says that he was there at the execution and that a heavy machine-gun targeted him from a distance of eight metres. Please, is it not logical that if you wanted to go to that ⁹⁴⁴¹ particular spot three days later, that you went with a video camera to document what you found there? You took the camera with you to document the circumstances, right?

A. Would it be possible to have just the question, please?

Q. The question is: Did you, three days later when you went to Izbica, take with you a camera or, rather, did you arrange for this videotaping in order to document the event which you wished to document? Is that what you did?

A. The filming of the footage from the Izbica massacre was not done by me alone. It was myself with Sefedin Thaci and with the assistance of the civilian population and members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. This was not my -- this was not an initiative of mine quite by chance. At the same time, I was working as a reporter for the Kosovo television channel, and during all the time, I had my own camera with me. However, on the 26th of March, my camera had been burnt, as I have mentioned in my statement as well. It was burnt in a house of the village of Lecina, where I used to live. And on the 30th of March, 1999, I did not have a camera when I went to the site of the event in Izbica. Therefore, we asked one of the villagers to provide a camera for us the next morning, and a friend of mine promised to bring one the next morning. So by the next day, we found ourselves a camera and proceeded with the filming. This is the truth about the camera and the filming.

Q. Very well, Mr. Loshi. My question was that if you wished to document the killing, the alleged killing of these people, and you mentioned 120 of them -- actually, there was a witness here and they ⁹⁴⁴² didn't play his tape, he claimed there were 500 people, but that was, I suppose, for the Prosecution to save face, so they didn't want to play that tape. Now, you say 120 people.

JUDGE MAY: No. The question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Why didn't you make a recording? Why didn't you tape those people, those 120 people? On the tape, the video we were shown, we just saw three or four and they were taken close up so that we could see their faces. Isn't it logical, if you want to make a document of something, that you should have taped each of the 120 people on the spot where they were found in order to be able to establish what happened? Some of the shots were taken from very far off, and you can't even discern what they actually depict until you come close to. So you have several groups of dead bodies which you show which undoubtedly were brought in there to be buried the KLA cemetery because they had died previously, lost their lives fighting against our forces, so you have a recording of the funeral. And what does that prove? Just that you buried the dead. Are you proving anything else by that?

JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What are you proving, except that dead bodies are being buried, with the tape that you made of the funeral -- of the burial.

A. My answer is as follows: In the three groups that can be seen in the footage we just played here, it's not a matter of two or three bodies, as you say, but we are talking massive groups of people, big groups of ⁹⁴⁴³ people. And we are talking approximately 100 or more bodies which had been massacred in three groups, as seen.

As I mentioned earlier, the other bodies that were found in the vicinity of the site where these three massive shot groups were found, we also filmed those. But the total of bodies, 127, if you look, if you watch my tape carefully, you can see that every single body is filmed and every single body is identified.

Q. Yes. We're going to look at all that very carefully, don't you worry about that. And experts will take a look at that too, never you mind. But what I would like you to tell me is how, by showing a picture of a body in a meadow, you set out to prove that death was caused by execution. And then you go a step further and say that death occurred through execution and that the execution was carried out by the Serb army and police. How do you prove that by showing the picture of a dead body, of a dead man in a meadow?

A. Please. We're not talking about just one body. We're talking about 127 persons about whom I just spoke.

Q. So what? You could have brought in 200 killed members of the KLA for that matter.

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you. All this is argument. There's no point arguing with the witness. He's given his evidence. He's described what he filmed. There's no point asking him what it's supposed to prove. That's a matter which we're going to have to decide. You know this. You argue with witnesses and it's pointless.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁹⁴⁴⁴

Q. As you were a doctor, a KLA doctor in that area, which KLA brigades engaged in battle during those days in that area? Are you going to tell us or are you going to say you don't know or keep quiet about it? Which KLA brigades engaged in fighting during those days in that region?

A. There was no fighting of the KLA with Serb forces during those days. On the first day, that is on the day when the NATO bombing started, on the 24th of March, the Serb forces were concentrated in the asphalted road from Peja to Mitrovica, meaning from Rakosh, Padalishte, Citak, Junik, Vitak, Cubren, up until Klina, Brumen [phoen], Skenderaj. They started shooting towards the civilian population, and thus they also started surrounding the area.

On the first day, the Kosovo Liberation Army resisted. However, considering that they had not adequate armament, not enough weapons - I mean the KLA - they had to withdraw, not only from the suburbs but also from Izbica where the civilian population reached 20.000 people, more than that. They wanted to make sure -- the KLA wanted to make sure the Serbs did not attack the civilian population.

So in Izbica and around Izbica on the 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th of March, there was no fighting whatsoever.

Q. Mr. Loshi, I read out what actually happened on the 20th of March when, amongst other things, eight terrorists were killed in that attack. You're now claiming that there was no fighting. And I'm going to read an excerpt from a report, and there are documents about that, that on the 26th of March, from 16 to 1630 hours, in the village of Likovac, the Srbica municipality, a terrorist attack was launched against members of ⁹⁴⁴⁵ the Ministry of the Interior and that policemen were killed on the occasion. On the 26th of March, in fact. And that they were Milan Pavlovic, Dusan Trifunovic, Ljuboje Zivkovic, Dragivoje Gajic, Radisa Klikovic, and seriously wounded policemen were Ljubisa Razic, Dusko Gavrilovic, Milan Ilic, Veselin --

JUDGE MAY: No. You're not wasting the time of the Court like this. You are trying to read these documents. No doubt your purpose is to read them into the record in some way. You misunderstand the purpose of cross-examination. It is to cross-examine what the witness said, not to give evidence yourself.

Now, unless you ask this witness some relevant questions, you're going to be stopped. Now, what is the question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did the witness say a moment ago that during those days, there was no fighting in that area? Isn't that what he said? He claimed that there was no fighting during those few days, and I am quoting from this report which says that on the 26th of March, there was fighting. And I go on to quote how many policemen were killed in that particular fighting. And how do you -- how many --

JUDGE MAY: What are you quoting from? What is the report?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They are official reports, Mr. May, official reports by the government of the Republic of Serbia, pertaining to the events that took place during those particular days. They are reports relating to those events, and I will tender them when the time comes. I'm just going to ask the witness now, because he claims that there was no fighting, whether there was in fact fighting. What I'm ⁹⁴⁴⁶ asking him is how many members of the KLA lost their lives in that particular region during those particular battles.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Loshi, were 100 killed, the 100 that you buried, were they killed there and whom you are now representing as being civilians?

A. First I will ask -- answer the question about the fighting between the KLA and the Serbian forces in Likovc. Mr. Milosevic, if you know well - and I suspect you do - the geography of Drenica, you will realise that there is no sense in your question because Likovc and Izbica are very far away. And there was no reason, if such things had happened at Likovc - and I'm not denying the possibility - there was still no reason for a massacre to happen at Izbica, because we are dealing with quite different activities by Serbian forces entering Izbica. They came from the other direction; from Padalishte, Runik, and Vitak and Citak, and not from Skenderaj and Likovc, the direction you talked about. And as for the number of KLA soldiers killed, I don't know exactly how many were -- soldiers were killed. Generally, soldiers were killed. But this has nothing to do with the massacre at Izbica, because in no place were 100 soldiers ever killed on one day. There were never such large numbers of soldiers killed on one day because the tactics of the KLA were more guerilla tactics. And there was never any confrontation, any frontal confrontation in which 100 soldiers could lose their lives in one day or one week. If 100 soldiers were to die, it would take months.

Q. Well, who claims that they were killed in one day, Mr. Loshi? Who says that they were killed in a single day and who says that they were ⁹⁴⁴⁷ killed in one particular spot?

Is it true, Mr. Loshi, is it correct that you gathered up all the dead KLA members from the area in the course of those few days and buried them in one particular place, in one spot? Is that true, Mr. Loshi? Is that correct?

A. No, this is not true. Nobody has ever argued this.

Q. Well, I am bringing forth that assertion because it's true. And secondly, you say that that doesn't justify the massacre in Izbica. Of course, nothing justifies any massacre. What I'm saying is that you have conjured up that massacre in Izbica, that there was no massacre at all. Is that right or not?

A. Thank you for honouring me with the word "fabrication," but everything that I have told is the truth, and there has been no fabrication at all.

Q. And is it true, Mr. Loshi, that you didn't see that at all? You never saw any massacre at all. Is that the truth?

JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, he's accepted that. It's not part of his evidence that he saw anything.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let's move on according to your statement.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Loshi, you say at the end of the page that I've already quoted from where you state and claim that what happened happened on the 20th of March in Srbica, you say you went to Tusilje, and up until the 29th of March there were 30.000 people there. However, I wish to add that many ⁹⁴⁴⁸ KLA fighters stayed there, remained there because their families were there and they had to take care of their families. Tell me now, please, how many KLA fighters were mixed up amongst those civilians that you referred to that gathered in Tusilje, in the Tusilje area during those days? How many fighters fled and became mixed up with the civilians? How many of them were there? And you know that full well.

A. In my statement, I have mentioned that in Tushile village, where there was a number of -- a big number of civilian population in order to defend themselves from the nature itself -- the nature of Serb bombing, and in order to be concentrated in an open field so that as soon as the Serb forces would come in, they would realise that they were nothing but civilian population and, therefore, they wanted to defend themselves from having what happened in Izbica happen to them too. I can tell you that initially there were KLA members there who were taking care of their families, but "taking care" in this case is in the sense of making sure that their family members were placed in an open area and then they all left. I mean, the KLA members sent their families to Tushile village and then left.

Q. All right. They left. Now, explain this to me: As one of the witnesses here -- and you have said that too, that there were some 20.000, et cetera, how is it possible that somebody can separate from 20 or 25.000 people just 120 males? Doesn't that seem to you to be illogical, that out of 20.000 people, only 120 of them should have been men?

A. No. On the day when men were separated from women, there were not ⁹⁴⁴⁹ 20.000 or 25.000 people there, even though this is a free interpretation. This is an assessment that one can conduct with the naked eye. However, on the day when men were separated from the women, there were between 3.500 or 4.000, maybe more, people. We do not have an exact figure but we know there were thousands of people. And it is known that all the men were separated and that was because the rest of the men had sought shelter in the mountains and were not together with the civilian population. I'm speaking about the vital part of it. Whereas the elderly stayed with the -- had stayed with the women and children, considering that the Serb forces wouldn't have anything to do with them. But their senses proved to be wrong and the total opposite of that happened. All of them were caught, and all of them, every single one of them, was shot.

Q. All right. The witness who was there, and that's not your case, you say you weren't there, Milazim Thaci, said that there were 15 or 16.000 of them in that meadow and that 140 were set aside, 140 men, and that all the men were set aside. And he said -- the figure he quoted was 15, 16.000.

Now, you go on to say that as all the rest were women and the men were executed there, you say that "the women, of course, cannot confirm what happened exactly."

Now, could you explain, please, why the women, of course -- these women "of course" could not confirm what had happened? Are they stupid or what? Do they not know? Why do you say "the women could, of course, not confirm what had happened" if they separated their menfolk, as you say, and executed them? ⁹⁴⁵⁰

A. As for the number, you remember 15, 16.000. This was a rough estimate of the population that had gathered initially on the 26th and 27th of March. And after that date, the larger part of this group had left and gone to Tushile, so that about 4.000, 5.000 people were left. Again, this is an estimate, because we didn't count them one by one. Meanwhile, as for the second part of the question as to whether the women could testify to this, I can say that from the conversations I had with the women on that day, we knew that they were sent away from the crowd forcibly, and they left in the direction of Turicevc and from there in two directions and went -- not went but were sent in the direction of Klina on the road to Albania, and it's said that this group suffered greatly because this group were -- had to go all the way to the border but were forced to go back, and the other group went -- of women went to Tushile to take shelter there, and I contacted this group and talked to them.

So my conversation with them showed -- produced the information that their menfolk had been separated from them by force, and I heard how they were sent in two different directions but heard gunshots as they were going towards Turicevc. So the women were taken away from the men and they could not see the scene of the massacre.

Q. All right. Tell me, please, Mr. Loshi -- well, I understood that they were in the field and that they took the others several hundred metres towards the forest and that everybody could see. But tell me this: You say: "My part of the videotape begins with the scene where on the 31st of March the men are digging the graves," and there is a number on ⁹⁴⁵¹ the camera as it records. That's not important. But let me ask you, when did that burial take place? They dug out the graves on the 31st of March, so was the burial and funeral on the 31st of March as well?

A. The burial took place in Izbica in a valley between two hills that was concealed. In other words, it was invisible to the Serbian forces concentrated on the hills of the village of Vojnik, only one kilometre away.

Q. I'm asking you when, Mr. Loshi.

A. This happened on the 31st of March and 1st of April, 1999. In other words, we buried these bodies in the course of two days. There was a small number of people, a relatively small number of people who were able to participate in the burial. So we were unable to dig all the --

JUDGE MAY: Dr. Loshi, just -- if you would, just concentrate on answering the questions since time is short.

Mr. Milosevic, we have to adjourn now. It's the time. You've had 50 minutes already. Are you asking for more time with this witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am. I do need more time, Mr. May, and I would need quite a bit more time because here we see the whole fabrication of theirs about the Serbs and everything linked to those fabrications.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we'll give you another quarter of an hour. So you should tailor your questions accordingly. Dr. Loshi, will you be back, please, in 20 minutes to conclude your evidence. Would you remember during the adjournment not to speak to ⁹⁴⁵² anybody about it until it's over, and that does include members of the Prosecution team.

--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I looked at my notes. Fifteen minutes is not enough for me to put all the questions that I would like to put.

JUDGE MAY: We've given our ruling. We've told you before, too much time is taken up with argument with the witness. If a witness doesn't agree with you, put your case to him and then move on and don't take up time arguing. But a quarter of an hour is the time we've allotted.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that at the end of the summer of 1998, in Turicevac where you were, between 400 and 500 members of the KLA were stationed who were armed with automatic rifles, machine-guns, mortars, recoilless cannon, and so on? Just answer yes or no.

A. I must say merely that I don't know about the arsenal of weapons that you mentioned, but there were approximately that number of KLA soldiers present, not only in Turicevc but in the entire area covered by the 112th brigade. This was approximately the number of soldiers, but they mainly had light weapons, that is, automatic rifles.

Q. You said in your statement, and this is page 321, that's the last ⁹⁴⁵³ three digits, I'm quoting you: "Between the KLA and the Serbian forces, there were no major clashes. The KLA was not strong enough to in order to stand up to the Serb army and most frequently there were clashes with civilians." Why were there clashes with the civilians, could you please tell me, and why did the members of the KLA flee together with civilians?

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, before the witness answers that question, I think that the paragraph should be put to him fairly. Page 3 of 31. I'm asking you to read the third full paragraph that appears to be -- and from what I heard, the translation being read out, the quote put to him is not correct. That's not what the statement says, at least in the English version. The suggestion is that the KLA was not strong enough to resist the Serbian army and most of the time the suggestion was that they were clashing with civilians. That's not in this statement. Most of the time they were fleeing, as well as the population. That's what the statement says.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can you deal with that, Dr. Loshi, please?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I would just like to correct it. I don't know what you are quoting from, but this is page --

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not get the number.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and the quote precisely says: "There were no big clashes between the KLA," full stop. "The KLA was not strong enough to resist the Serbian army and most of the time they were fleeing with the civilian population." This is specifically what it states.

JUDGE MAY: The English is "as well as," but I don't think we need ⁹⁴⁵⁴ take further time on that. What was the question again, please, Mr. Milosevic?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I asked him to say what kind of clashes they were and why did members of the KLA flee together with the civilian population?

A. As I said before, the weapons of the KLA was -- was mainly light. And in comparison with the weapons of the Serbian army, this did not allow the KLA to conduct a frontal battle with Serbian forces. And so my statement that the KLA shirked clashes with the Serbian forces is accurate. However, there were battles, as I said, in using guerilla tactics that were employed by the KLA. But I did not say that the KLA and its members fled with the civilian population. They avoided conflicts not by fleeing with the civilian population but by concentrating on other areas, i.e., on the periphery in order to preserve the core of the KLA and not to give a pretext to the Serbian army and the Serbian military forces to commit crimes against the civilian population.

Q. [B/C/S translation on English channel] ... following. I think some people were killed. I think some people were killed and others were arrested. Are you testifying here about what you think or about what you know?

A. The question is not clear to me and I don't remember in what way I said this.

Q. You said --

JUDGE MAY: First of all, we are getting interruption on the English channel. ⁹⁴⁵⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked, Mr. May, him to explain what he said on page 3, and quoted. He said, "I think some people were killed and others were arrested." And I asked him, "Do you think that they were killed or do you claim that they were killed?" That the witness is testifying about what he claims and not what he thinks.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must ask again an explanation for this question and its context, and what case are you thinking of?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, whereabouts in the statement is it? We have the reference that you made to --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 3, Mr. May. It says that he watched the village of Tusilje being shelled, and he says that some people were killed, but I find it hard now to find that because -- but the quote was correct in any case. I have no doubt about that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems to me that the question is now clear.

JUDGE MAY: I have the quotation. "On the 30th of March, I could observe green-coloured Serbian army trucks and tanks at the Vojnik hill. In the evening that day, the village of Tushile was shelled. I believe some people were killed and others arrested."

Now, that's the relevant passage, and the question was: Is that true? Can you assist us to that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how this phrase "I think" was put in. Perhaps it's a mistake that wasn't noticed by myself when I read the Albanian version, and perhaps the investigator used this word, but I have data to show that on the 30th of March, the village of ⁹⁴⁵⁶ Tushile was shelled and that Serbian forces entered, withdrew the civilian population, and scattered them in different directions. And at the same time, they took some men, a group of about 40 to 50 - I don't know the exact number - and as far as I know, the greater part of this group were released. I was able to contact some of these people because some of them, though not all, came to Izbica where some of them had their families. Because even after the massacre at Izbica, there was a considerable number of people sheltering in this village. So this statement is accurate, and so it's not a matter of theory or supposition but a truth that I learnt from people who had been present in Tushile. And as far as I know, again I say on the basis of conversations I had, 11 people were killed in Tushile village that day, but I don't know their names.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. I want to be precise.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I found this in the statement, Mr. May. It's on page 4. It's the page which has the number 03035322, and it's the fourth passage, the last sentence. "In the evening that day, the village of Tushile was shelled. I believe some people were killed and others arrested." So this is the correct quotation. As you can see, it is quite correct. Let us continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said in your statement that the same evening, you went into the village of Tusilje together with your friends. I quote: "One of my friend was Shaban Dragaj, a KLA commander." Who were the other friends? ⁹⁴⁵⁷ Were they also members of the KLA or members of Shaban Dragaj's staff?

A. I have stated that in the mentioned date, I went to the site of the event with Shaban Dragaj, who was not only a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army but was also deputy commander and main chief of the 112th Brigade. In the meantime, I personally went with him and some other persons. I do not remember whether any of the other persons was a KLA member. However, it is possible that I may -- that any of them may have been a member of the headquarters. This is my answer as far as this question is concerned.

Q. Very well. And you say in your statement, you explain that on the same night, you came to Izbica but that you were not able to see the bodies but you heard from the people what had happened, and then you said, "We decided to try to find a camera in order to document," et cetera, and this is what you showed to us, what you consider as documenting. My question is as follows: Was this Shaban Dragaj, the KLA commander, present with you all the time?

A. If you mean the first night when we went together, then the answer is yes. During the whole time we were together and we saw the dead bodies, it was dark. We were not able to see the bodies clearly, but the truth is we did see them, and that is what I stated. I had remarks and personal observations about the reasons why we could not see the bodies. No. We could not see the bodies clearly. That is, we saw them. And Shaban Dragaj was with me during the whole time.

Q. All right. And after the 4th of April, when the tapes were -- after a few days, when they were re-recorded, you said the tape was ⁹⁴⁵⁸ stolen, you asked the commander for help, and it was confiscated from the thieves. Does that mean that the tapes were not in your possession or in the possession of the persons -- the person who taped them all the time? Is that true?

A. The truth is that the tape was obtained in an unfair way by some irresponsible person, and I asked for the assistance of the main chief of the brigade, Shaban Dragaj, who made sure, after a conversation with those persons, to have the tape back within a very short time. Meanwhile, as concerns the truth about the tape, it is true that this tape - I mean the original tape which I gave to the ICTY - was filmed with the camera of Sefedin Thaci while he himself was not present. In the meantime, I had my own tape which on the 4th of April I recorded from this original tape into VHS. And I had that tape all the time. But due to technical reasons, I left it somewhere in the mountains of Istok because it was very big, and I was thinking that there were chances that I could get caught by Serb forces and I didn't want the tape to be on me by then. And it was a wise thing to do to hide this tape. So that's why I took the other one, in order to use it for information purposes.

In the meantime, as I said, I left the tape in the Istok mountains, and I then found it and brought it with me everywhere, and I've been carrying it with me everywhere I go all the time.

Q. Very well, Mr. Loshi. Could you please answer briefly because you are using up a lot of my time.

Did you receive instructions from anybody about what and how to record? ⁹⁴⁵⁹

A. How could I receive these instructions when I filmed footage of the massacre of Izbica on the 31st of March, 1999, at a time when there were no foreign journalists present anywhere in Kosova or in the battlefields, not even where the massacres were taking place?

Q. You said, on page 03035323, I'm quoting you: "In the course of April, I received another videotape, and then on the 3rd I recorded some new scenes from Izbica."

So these persons who gave you this new tape, and my question refers to them, did they give you instructions on how to tape? And what happened to that tape?

A. I am sorry, but I think you are mixing things. You're being confused.

Before I left to Albania -- I left for Albania to give the tape where I filmed -- what I filmed, I had also filmed something on a tape of the same format as the previous tape which could also be used compatibly in every camera. That specific tape had new footage where one can see the burial site a month later. You can see the flowers and you can see the number of 107 tombs that had been dug a month ago. I was inside Kosovo in the meantime and I was not in contact with any kind of media whatsoever.

Q. All right. Let's not waste any more time with that. But please tell me, did you give that tape also to investigator Jonathan Harris? Just say yes or no without any long explanations.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Could you answer specifically to the question: Were the bodies moved? ⁹⁴⁶⁰

A. The question is not clear to me.

Q. Were the dead bodies moved?

A. No. The bodies have been transported only when they were to be buried. All the bodies have been brought close to the cemetery in two places, and they have been identified.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've had another 20 minutes, which is more than we said you could have, but you can ask two more questions and then you must bring this to an end.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, since they were not moved, why do you say in paragraph 4 that some were recorded two or three times and that they were moved to a place? And if you look at page 03035345, in paragraph 7, you say: "Some of the bodies were brought to the burial site from other locations. All of them were the victims of clashes, and we did not divide the bodies according to the place where they were killed."

The point is as follows: They were all victims of clashes. That's what you said. "And we did not divide the bodies according to the place where they were killed."

A. I have not said -- I have never said that all these victims, all of them were victims of clashes. We're not talking about victims of clashes. We're talking about innocent victims. Meanwhile, as concerns whether the bodies were moved, even though I gave an answer earlier, if you look at my earlier testimony today, I answered a very short while ago and I will repeat my answer. The bodies were moved from the place they ⁹⁴⁶¹ had been executed only when we wanted to bury them and to identify them. Some of the bodies were identified during the filming of the site of the event, that is, where they were shot and died, whereas the rest was identified when they were lined up alongside the burial site, and we filmed footage of all of these moments.

This is what I was referring to when I said what you are claiming that I said.

Q. But, please, in your statement, you said that there were 127 victims and that you dug 127 graves and that they were all victims of clashes. Is this true or not?

JUDGE MAY: Where is this?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Could you explain, please?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, could you find this, please. It doesn't appear on any statement I have.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not true.

MR. RYNEVELD: I haven't been able to locate the exact quote either in the English version.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, where does it say this? Yes?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at page 28 of the English version, paragraph 3 from the bottom. So page 28 of the English version of the statement from the 23rd to the 29th, 2001, September 2001. So it's the third paragraph up from the bottom.

JUDGE MAY: So we have it clear - thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic - the paragraph says this in the English: "Finally, I will say that I'm not ⁹⁴⁶² quite sure how many of the 127 persons we buried at the gravesite actually were from the massacre. Some of these bodies were brought to the gravesite from other locations. They were all victims of the conflict, and we did not at that time categorise the bodies from where they were killed. However, the majority of the bodies came from the massacre when men were separated from women and children in the field outside Izbica on the 28th of March, 1999. I would estimate the number from the massacre to be between 110 and 120 persons."

Now, that being the paragraph, Mr. Milosevic, this is your final question, what do you want to ask the witness about that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One more question is not enough for me, but ...

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that in these clashes that you mention incidentally here, during those actions -- I have a list of those who were killed. Thirty soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia, 25 police officers, all of them in your municipality during those clashes. And how can you say, then, that these were clashes in which the KLA did not fight, in which no one was killed. Thirty soldiers and 25 police officers. How many members of the KLA, then, were killed in those conflicts who, as you say, were much weaker in comparison to the regular army and police? And where did you bury them if not there?

A. There are three different questions. I don't know which one to answer first. Could you possibly separate them?

JUDGE MAY: Let us get on with this. First of all, it's put that ⁹⁴⁶³ there were serious clashes, in effect, in which 25 police officers and 30 soldiers of the Yugoslav army were killed. Do you know anything about any such clashes?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not denied, and I'm not denying now there have been clashes between the KLA and the Serb military forces. That is, the accused is referring to a whole region, to Drenica. However, he does not refer to Izbica and its surroundings. He does not mention even --

JUDGE MAY: Dr. Liri, I must ask you just to deal with the questions, please.

The next question is: How many members of the KLA were killed in the conflicts? Can you help with that? If you can't, how many do you know were killed?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, from the beginning of the war until it was over, that is from the 24th, 25th, 26th, 28th of March, when the first fighting clashes occurred in Vojnik village, in Llausha, until the end of the war, approximately 200 soldiers of the KLA were killed. This is the period of time that was the beginning of the conflict, in fact, back in 1997. And the end of the war was in March --

JUDGE MAY: Don't go back to that. You've dealt with the relevant period.

The next question is: Where were they buried? Can you help us with that or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were buried in the places where they were also shot. I don't know where each soldier was buried, but, for ^{9464 BLANK PAGE 9476} example, if a soldier had been killed in my region, he would be buried in the village cemetery. If other soldiers had been shot in other villages, then that's where they would be buried. Therefore, there is no specific answer to where -- to who was buried where.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, they were not buried in mass gravesites.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, one technical question just in order to clarify one date. It's quite a specific question.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. You can ask that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said that you buried those dead on the 31st of March and 1st of April. Do you know that Amnesty International at Kukes in Albania was told by a person, Citaku, who said that on the 8th of April -- there are three different dates; the 8th of April, the 4th of April, and the 3rd of April. So all of these persons, these three different persons, said that they took part in the burial ceremony, and they gave Amnesty International investigators these three dates, 8th of April, 4th of April, the 3rd of April. But you are giving a different date, the 31st of March and the 1st of April. And did you hear about the names of these people?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter was not able to get the names.

JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about what's being alleged? If you don't, just say so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing more than what I ⁹⁴⁷⁷ just said. I know that this massacre was -- this massacre happened in March 1999, and the burial took place on the 1st of April of the same year.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic, before you begin your cross-examination, it should be noted, in case it's considered elsewhere, that the accused had over 80 minutes cross-examination on this occasion. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will do my best to be as brief as possible.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. Loshi, whether we clarified one point, actually a point we heard a moment ago and which you stated previously that all the victims of the conflict which were brought in from other places, could you tell us how many of them were there? Did you ever learn how many persons were brought in from other areas, from other places, to the particular spot where you filmed them?

A. The word "conflict" doesn't mean clash. "Conflict" means conflict between Serbian forces with the civilian Albanian population from the start of the war until the end.

Q. I'm not insisting upon the fighting. Can you just explain to me whether you ever learnt how many people from other places where people had lost their lives, if they weren't killed on that spot, how many of those people who were brought in from other areas to the particular spot where they were buried.

A. The people who were brought were also from the village of Izbica ⁹⁴⁷⁸ but rather more distant from the place where the massacre took place. But -- at a distance. But nobody else was killed elsewhere, that is, in another village, was brought to Izbica. All the victims were from Izbica.

Q. Yes, I understand that, but they weren't killed in that particular spot. They were brought in from elsewhere, somewhere else where they had in fact been killed; is that right?

A. They were brought from several places where they were found around the massacred group, only a few metres away. So the number of those massacred was about 100. And I didn't count them personally. I can't state about this. And these others were brought from other places but still within the village of Izbica.

Q. You explained it differently here, but I don't wish to insist upon the matter. I leave it to the Court to decide. But here's another example, Mr. Loshi: On page 24 of your statement dated September the 24th where you give an overview, there's a name that crops up. Ali Beqiri is the name, and in your comments you state that he was a KLA fighter, KLA soldier killed after the massacre. So you say in this particular place that it was a KLA soldier who was killed after the massacre who was in fact buried at that- burial site, at that spot. And it is on page 24 of the English version.

A. It's true that Ajet Beqiri, and not only him but Asim Bajrami, both soldiers of the KLA who were in Izbica on that day were killed on the 27th of March that day, that is, one day before the massacre. And they were buried in one place with the victims of the massacre. I said that before, and I've said it again. So they weren't killed on the 28th. ⁹⁴⁷⁹

Q. But you say here that he was killed after the massacre, not before, and you've recorded it here in the column. You say that he was killed after the massacre, not before; right?

A. No, I didn't say that anywhere. Please bring me the statement so that I can read it. I said that they were buried after the massacre.

Q. It says here in your comments, in column titled "Comments" in B/C/S, it says: "KLA soldier killed after the massacre." It is on page 24 of the English version, and I think it coincides with your own version, and it says"Killed after the massacre."

A. I absolutely deny this. It's not true that they were killed after the massacre and nor did I state this. They were killed one day before the massacre, on the 27th of March, and they weren't killed in the place where the civilian population was gathered but much further away.

Q. So what it states in your statement is not right, is not correct; is that it?

A. If it is - and once again, I doubt that is written in my statement, but if it is, it's not true.

JUDGE MAY: Show the witness.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this part about the statement is not a bit which I've read because it's not related to my statement. And this is a mistake that has entered and has nothing -- has nothing to do with my statement. It's no doubt a mistake by the person who was talking to me, because it's not in my actual statement which I gave. This is not said anywhere in my statement.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. Let the statement go back. ⁹⁴⁸⁰

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, along with these documents that were handed over to you today as well, you have the last page in that set of documents.

Q. Mr. Loshi, there's a statement there which you gave on the 15th of June 2002 to the International Tribunal for serious violations of international criminal law, and in that statement and on that page, you state that: "In addition to what I have stated in the previous statements, I should like to add that in 1998, I assisted the KLA," because you helped the wounded soldiers. That's quite understandable. "And I joined that organisation in August 1998 as well. I bore a rifle for my own protection but I never fired at anyone." Is that true and correct as it is stated in your statement?

A. Yes.

Q. And one more point I would like to clarify, and that is the following: In your statement dated September, and it is on page 3 of the English version, last paragraph, and then page 4, second paragraph, and page 4, paragraph 4, in which you said the following: First of all, you said that you knew that the Serb forces were in the area but that on the 21st, 22nd and 23rd of March there were no major episodes. So you didn't see any members of the army during those three days, and there were no incidents during those three days, as you state here; is that right?

A. It's true that in the place where I was living, that is in the villages round about, I saw no Serbian soldiers in those days, and I saw no fighting between the KLA and the Serbian forces. ⁹⁴⁸¹

Q. And then you go on to say that on the 25th of March, people started to concentrate, to group in the Izbica valley, and by the 26th of March, "I estimated that there were about 25.000 people gathered there." You make no mention of seeing either soldiers or members of the police force there when these people gathered there; is that right?

A. It is true that on the 25th of March, 1999, Serbian shells arriving from the direction of Runik and Banja killed three civilians in the village of Klladernice where the population had initially been concentrated, and from that day on there was a movement of the population towards Izbica which was considered a slightly safer area. But it's true that I didn't see Serbian soldiers on that day.

Q. No. That was on the 24th of March. What you're talking about took place on the 24th of March, and that's what you said, and that the people had taken refuge in the schoolhouse. But on the 25th of March, 25.000 people were gathered there. Now, nearby were there any police or military forces there? Because you make no mention of them here.

A. It's true that this happened on the 24th. This is my error. Because it happened on the end of the day. And I went in the morning of the 25th of March to see this.

Q. Yes, but on the 25th of March, when there was this group of people numbering 25.000, at that place at that time, there were no soldiers or policemen there, were there? Right?

A. No. No, there weren't.

Q. And is that what the situation was like on the 29th of March as well when there were 30.000 people and KLA members? There were no ⁹⁴⁸² soldiers or policemen there either. There were 30.000 people on the 29th of March. Were there any soldiers or policemen there? Now, if the KLA was there, probably the army wasn't.

A. Let me explain things. On the 29th of March, I'm talking about Tushile, not Izbica because in Izbica the massacre happened on the previous day, on the 28th, but if you're thinking of the village of Tushile, then it's true that on this day to which you refer there were no Serbian policemen.

Q. Thank you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. RYNEVELD: Very briefly, Your Honours. Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

Q. Dr. Loshi, during the course of cross-examination, it has been suggested to you, inter alia, that the three groups that you filmed and that were shown on the edited tape prepared from the master tape, that these bodies were of KLA soldiers who had been gathered from other areas who had been killed during military conflicts and brought to Izbica. At least, that's my understanding of the cross-examination. That being the suggestion, I have two questions that follow.

You have already told us that these individuals appear to be -- I believe the words you used were "of an advanced age." Is that your observation of the bodies that you filmed when you produced this film?

A. Yes.

Q. There appear to be men on crutches as well, elderly men on crutches. Was there those type of individuals in at least two of the ⁹⁴⁸³ groups that are filmed?

A. Yes, there were, but mainly in the first group, that is the western group, there were certain handicapped people. But there were also handicapped people in the other group, and there were several, not just two or three, but quite a number. There were people with various handicaps, both physical and mental.

Q. In your experience, were the normal KLA soldiers men of advanced age and handicapped people on crutches?

A. No. The majority, the overwhelming majority of the members of the KLA were very young. And people of this age, which we see in the scenes that I brought to this court, they were not KLA people at all.

Q. Did you notice any uniform or insignia indicating membership in the KLA on any of the bodies that you videotaped?

A. In the groups, the three groups of the massacred people in which you can see, I did not see any insignia of this kind. During the burial, I noticed one soldier lying by the grave, in a KLA uniform, and this man was Ajet Beqiri who had been my friend and was also from my home village, but I did not see any other uniformed person. As I said, he was killed one day earlier, on the 27th.

Q. As a medical doctor, are you able to determine -- were you able to make an observation as to whether or not these bodies that you looked at had been killed, shall we say, as early as the first week in March, or was the state of their decomposition, so to speak, such that they were recently killed, within the last two or three days?

A. On the basis of a superficial examination, which is all that was ⁹⁴⁸⁴ possible during war conditions, it was easy to see that these bodies had not been killed a long time before but had been quite recently killed, that is, two days, as I had been told by the women whom I'd spoken to slightly earlier.

Q. Do I also understand you correctly to have told the Court on cross-examination that you had spoken to some of these individuals whom you recognised within the two or three days preceding to filming their dead bodies?

A. Yes.

Q. My final question, sir: You've told us, both in the statement and under cross-examination, about the actual videotapes, and you talked about differences in format and then re-recording.

The first format of the original tape, I'm holding up a very small videotape. Would you look at it, please. Is that the original format of the tape which was designated as 1733, is that the format of the original tape?

A. From the format that I can see from here, I can't make it out all that clearly, but it could well be the cassette that I brought to this court.

Q. Then I'm holding up a larger, normal size videotape that is usually in use at video stores, et cetera. Is that the size of videotape that you recorded or re-recorded what was on the smaller tape? Is that the two different sizes?

A. Which one, the small one or the big one?

Q. Now looking at a bigger one. ⁹⁴⁸⁵

A. Yes. That's the size of the cassette that I used to transfer the material from the small cassette to the large one, because later I used a small cassette of the kind that you're holding in your other hand.

MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in light of the extensive cross-examination and in light of other evidence such as from Dr. Baccard about observations he made from the original videotape, 1733, you have only at the moment received the small edited four-minute tape. I would like to tender, without playing, the original and a copy of tape 1733.

JUDGE MAY: It would be part of the exhibit which contains the extracts.

MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are all my questions under the circumstances. Thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the extract will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 308A, and the originals will be given Prosecutor's Exhibit 308.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an additional question. May I put it? It is connected to what Mr. Ryneveld just asked.

JUDGE MAY: No. We must have some order in this. You must ask your cross-examination, then the other side have a right to re-examine. When you come to witnesses, the same will be applied to you, but you can't simply ask questions in any order you like.

Dr. Liri, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. It's now concluded. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. ⁹⁴⁸⁶

[The witness withdrew]

MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution calls as its next witness, Mr. Caslav Golubovic.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: CASLAV GOLUBOVIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a seat. Examined by Mr. Shin:

Q. Witness, could you please tell the Court your full name, first name followed by your last.

A. My name is Caslav Golubovic.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, were you born on the 15th of May, 1937?

A. Yes. And you are a Serb and by religion an Eastern Orthodox Christian; is that correct?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, were you, in 1999, the chief of the Secretariat for Internal Affairs in Bor in Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. And while you were in that position, was a refrigerator truck containing corpses found in the Danube in an area within the jurisdiction of the Bor SUP? And by "SUP" I'm using the Serbian acronym for the Secretariat for Internal Affairs. ⁹⁴⁸⁷

A. Yes.

Q. Before we get to this incident, I'm going to ask you a few background questions. You are currently retired. Is that correct, Mr. Mr. Golubovic?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you retire?

A. At the beginning of January. The 1st of January, 2001, in fact.

Q. And what rank did you hold in the MUP, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, when you retired?

A. The rank of colonel.

Q. Just prior to retirement, were you the chief of the SUP in Bor?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you occupy that position?

A. For about ten years. From 1992 onwards.

Q. Thank you. Could you please describe to the Court where -- where is Bor, the town of Bor, and the area of responsibility of the SUP in Bor.

A. Well, Bor is situated in Eastern Serbia. It is the SUP area, and it borders with Romania and Bulgaria.

Q. Approximately how many staff in the MUP would have been under your jurisdiction as the chief of the SUP in Bor, approximately, as far as you can recall?

A. It depended, but it ranged between 600 and 700 people. Those were the number of people working in the secretariat.

Q. And below the level of the secretariat in Bor, were there -- were there smaller police stations in several of the municipalities? ⁹⁴⁸⁸

A. In all the municipalities there were police stations or local police departments within the frameworks of the overall secretariat.

Q. And how many of these -- how many of these police stations below the level of the secretariat would have been within the jurisdiction of the Bor SUP?

A. Well, there was the Bor municipality with the station in Negotin in Majdanpek and Kladovo.

Q. Prior to becoming the chief of the SUP in Bor, Mr. Golubovic, you held various positions in the MUP, beginning in 1982 when you joined the MUP; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's right. I was an employee of the Ministry of the Interior, and I held different posts and was given different assignments. Before that, I was head of the secretariat in Zajecar, and from that post I came to Bor.

Q. And prior to 1982, I believe you held several positions, including positions in the municipal administration in Bor and also in the copper mining and smelting plant near Bor; is that correct?

A. I worked in the Municipal Assembly of Bor and in the ATB factory combine in Bor up until 1982.

Q. Thank you. And is it correct that you have a university degree in law which you obtained in 1962 and that in 1973 you passed the bar examination?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Golubovic where were you on the 6th of April in 1999 at around 6.30 in the evening? ⁹⁴⁸⁹

A. 1991 or 1999?

Q. 1999.

A. I was in Bor, at my house on Lake Bor.

Q. Did you receive a telephone call at about that time? Just yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. And did you recognise the voice of the caller? Just yes or no to that question as well, please.

A. Yes.

Q. How did you recognise -- how did you recognise that voice?

A. I recognised the voice because the man came through. He said his name, and we have had daily contacts, so I knew his voice.

Q. And who was -- who did you recognise that voice -- whose voice did you recognise that to be?

A. It was the head of the crime department in the secretariat. His name was Tomislav Miladinovic.

Q. As the chief of the SUP in Bor, Mr. Golubovic, are you his immediate superior?

A. Yes.

Q. And what would the scope of responsibility be of Mr. Miladinovic as the head of the crime police?

A. Well, the responsibilities were provided for in the rules of service, but it was up to him to organise the business of the department and to lead the professional part in the sense, first and foremost, of crime detection, general crime, economic crimes, filing, reports, and ⁹⁴⁹⁰ everything linked to crimes.

Q. And this would be throughout the area of responsibility of the SUP in Bor; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Going back to the telephone call now. What subject matter was Mr. Miladinovic calling you about?

A. He was calling to convey information to me that, immediately prior to that, he had received information from Kladovo to the effect that a refrigerator truck was pulled out onto the bank, which was flowing down the Danube, floating down the Danube, and when they opened the refrigerator truck, they found a number of dead bodies, between 20 and 30 corpses.

Q. And when you say that the information was received from Kladovo, could you specify whether Mr. Miladinovic indicated where exactly from Kladovo he was receiving that information?

A. From the SUP department in Kladovo. Probably from the duty officer or the head of the department.

Q. And did Mr. Miladinovic indicate or other -- did he tell you where specifically this refrigerator truck had been located?

A. He said that it had been located in the village of Tekija on the Danube.

Q. Did he indicate whether any investigation into this incident had been undertaken up to that point, however brief that investigation may have been?

A. He said that they had tried to carry out an on-the-spot ⁹⁴⁹¹ investigation and that there were municipal officials and public prosecutor and the municipal investigating judge and a team of people from the department and that they had been pulling out the refrigerator truck throughout the day, that in the afternoon when he himself received that information, when they had opened the door and when they saw the 20 or 30 bodies, as they said, which were inside, because of the darkness and impending darkness, the on-the-spot investigation was interrupted and the municipal prosecutor and the investigating judge didn't wish to conduct the investigation because they thought it came under the jurisdiction of the district prosecution office.

Q. How long did this telephone call last?

A. Five to ten minutes, most probably.

Q. And during that telephone call, did you -- did you say anything to Mr. Miladinovic?

A. I told him that I will leave the lake right away, that I will come to pick him up in Bor, and that we will leave for Kladovo so that I could inform myself in detail, to see what it was all about.

Q. And did you then go to Kladovo after that?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, what time did you arrive in Kladovo?

A. Well, in view of the distance, most probably at around twenty to -- twenty or twenty hours and thirty, so around 8.30 in the evening.

Q. And where specifically in Kladovo did you go?

A. We went to the chief office of the department.

Q. And by "department" -- perhaps this is a translation issue; by ⁹⁴⁹² "department," do you mean the police station in Kladovo?

A. Yes.

Q. When you arrived at the police station in Kladovo, were there people already present there? Just yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you -- could you tell us who was present, their position and their name.

A. The chief of the department was there, Sperlic. Then also the chief of the crime department was there, Milan -- I cannot remember everybody's name right now. Then there was the municipal public prosecutor, the municipal investigative judge. Slobodan Aleksic was there. He was the head of the state security centre. There was another employee of the state security centre. So this is more or less the group of people that was there. Perhaps someone else might have been there also.

Q. Do you recall, Mr. Golubovic, whether there was anyone present from the border police station?

A. Yes. The station commander was there also, Mitrovic.

Q. Thank you. Mr. Golubovic, after you arrived at the Kladovo police station, did you then have a meeting with these persons?

A. When I arrived, I first asked to be informed about what it was all about, what had happened the day before and that day, what they had done in view of the fact that this is in the territory of Kladovo. What did the department do, what activities did it undertake, in order to receive all of this information. ⁹⁴⁹³

Q. If we could go through the substance of that process of informing you. Were you informed how the refrigerator truck was discovered?

A. Yes.

Q. And what were you informed about how it was discovered?

A. They told me that the day before, a citizen noticed that an object was floating down the Danube and that this was reported to the officials in the Kladovo department. They were unable to identify this object on that day and that is why they reported it.

Q. And during this meeting in the Kladovo police station, who was it that informed you of this among the participants in that meeting?

A. I was informed by the chief of the department and most probably by somebody else who was present, who was updated about some other matters.

Q. By the chief of the department, you're speaking of Mr. Sperlic; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Sperlic inform you also on the day upon which this refrigerator truck was discovered?

A. Yes. He informed me. That was how it began, by this being reported by a citizen, that this was reported, and then the team went out to the location.

Q. I'm sorry. Maybe my question didn't come through clearly. Which day were you told the truck had been discovered?

A. On the 6th of April in the evening. That's when I was informed.

Q. Okay. And you're speaking, of course, about this meeting in the Kladovo police station. Just to be -- just -- ⁹⁴⁹⁴

A. Yes.

Q. Just to be clear, which -- were you told upon which day the truck itself had been found by the -- first of all, noticed by the citizen -- by the citizen and then discovered by the Kladovo police?

A. It was noticed on the 5th of April for the first time, and that was the first time that it was reported to the department of internal affairs. I came to Kladovo on the 6th, in the evening.

Q. Thank you for clarifying that. And referring only to the events on the 5th of April as they were reported to you during this meeting, what did the OUP, which is the Serbian acronym for police station in Kladovo, what did they do in response? Did they undertake any actions?

A. As far as I can recall, they just said that this object which was floating down the Danube, that they reached this object, that it was tethered to a tree on the bank. All of this was happening in the afternoon, so there was no possibility to undertake any other actions.

Q. And what further action, if any, were you informed that the Kladovo police took with regards to this refrigerator truck on the 6th of April? In other words, earlier on in the day upon which you were having this meeting.

A. Measures were undertaken on the 6th of April to drag this object out on the bank. A machine was used for this, a crane from the hydroelectric power station Djerdap. So the time was spent in attempts to pull this object out of the Danube. When it was partially dragged out to the bank, the investigative team came from Kladovo with the public prosecutor and the investigating judge. This occurred in view of the ⁹⁴⁹⁵ problems that they had encountered and the conditions; there was war, planes were flying over all the time. So this happened sometime in the late afternoon.

Q. And during the course of the 6th of April, were you informed whether the team of people at the site of the refrigerator truck had looked inside the refrigerator truck?

A. I was informed that when they wanted to start the investigation, when they opened the door, I said in the beginning that they observed a number of corpses. At that point, the number they were talking about was from between 20 to 30. They immediately closed the door and nothing else was done.

Q. Now, at this meeting in the Kladovo police station, were the people present there, did they make any assumptions that they informed you of as to who these bodies were, these corpses?

A. Everyone had their own opinion, starting from the fact that there was an inscription on the truck, "Prizren," and allegedly when they opened that, they could see clothing. There were assumptions that these were most probably dead bodies from Kosovo, but nobody explicitly said that. They were just assumptions.

Q. Just to clarify that, when you say that no one explicitly said that, did they at least indicate what their assumptions were?

A. Since the bodies at that point were seen by only two or three people, these others didn't know anything else. So except for their comments, there was nothing else.

As far as I was informed, this was only seen by the public ⁹⁴⁹⁶ prosecutor and the investigative judge for a moment and the crime technician from Kladovo, the person who was doing this job. The rest of those present, I think, were actually not at the location, and they were only able to give their comments. At that point, they were not eyewitnesses.

Q. As far as you can recall, what was it that was said about the clothing that would have led to the assumption you indicated?

A. It was said that these were female bodies, that they were wearing dimije, pantaloons, and that many bodies were wearing suits which indicated that they came from down there.

Q. And just to clarify, when you say "down there," you mean Kosovo; is that correct?

A. Yes, Kosovo.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I'd like to move on, Mr. Shin, now to another topic.

MR. SHIN:

Q. Did you at some point report this matter? I'm sorry, I didn't understand you correctly, Your Honour. I am actually about to move on to another topic, so this would be a convenient time for a break, yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll break now. Mr. Golubovic, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes for a short break. Would you remember, please, in this adjournment and any others there may be in this case in your evidence not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes. ⁹⁴⁹⁷

--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Shin.

MR. SHIN:

Q. Mr. Golubovic, just prior to the break, you were testifying about matters discussed during the meeting in the Kladovo police station at about 8.30. Did you at some point report this matter, including the results of these discussions, with your superiors? Just yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. And by what means did you make this report?

A. By telephone.

Q. Before we go to the contents of this report, I'm going to ask you a few preliminary questions. Focusing on the telephone number, what -- what number did you call, if you can recall?

A. I don't remember the number.

Q. Okay. And was it a telephone number provided to you by the Ministry of Internal Affairs?

A. It was the telephone number of the head of the state security at the ministry. I don't remember the number.

Q. Actually, just to check on the translation there, was that the state security?

A. It was the chief of the public security, General Djordjevic.

Q. What time did you make this call?

A. I made the call shortly after I had been apprised of the ⁹⁴⁹⁸ situation. After I was informed about the situation, I conveyed the information to him and asked him what we should do and how we should do it. I asked for instructions.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, let's just take this step-by-step. Do you remember, as far as you can remember, approximately what time was that call made?

A. Most probably between 8.30 to 9.00, after I had been informed. And the amount of time it took for me to be informed was about 15 to 20 minutes.

Q. Okay. Thank you. And when you made the call, did you recognise the voice on the other end of the telephone line?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How did you recognise that voice?

A. I recognised it because I had heard it many times before in other contacts.

Q. And who did you recognise that voice as belonging to?

A. Like I said, it was the voice of the chief of the public security service, General Djordjevic.

Q. Was General Djordjevic your immediate supervisor?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, going to the substance of this telephone call, what did you -- what did you say to General Djordjevic?

A. I conveyed to him what was said to me in Kladovo at this meeting; that the day before, this refrigerator truck was found, and that on that first day, until the refrigerator truck was opened, basically everybody ⁹⁴⁹⁹ thought that this about a traffic accident that had happened on the road that goes along the Danube. I conveyed to him that on that day it was partially pulled out with a crane, that it was opened, and that 20 to 30 corpses were found inside, that the justice organs were there, the prosecutor and the investigative judge, that no -- no investigation was carried out. They did not feel that they were authorised to do that. They informed their superiors about it, the district investigating organs. So this is what I conveyed to him.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, did you also convey to him the assumption of some people in that earlier meeting that the corpses were persons from Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you convey to General Djordjevic also the -- what was written on the truck as well as a description of the clothing of some of the bodies, as you were informed during the previous meeting?

A. Yes, I told him that, that the truck bore this inscription and that I was told that the corpses were dressed in that way.

Q. What was General Djordjevic's initial reaction upon being told about these things by you?

A. I had the impression that he was surprised. So ...

Q. How did you -- on what basis did you inform that impression that he was surprised?

A. Based on the conversation itself, his reactions during the conversations. He used certain terms that we use.

Q. Could you just explain? You don't necessarily have to repeat those words, but could you explain what terms you mean, what kinds of ⁹⁵⁰⁰ terms?

A. A number of those terms are perhaps not appropriate for this occasion, but, "Oh, it's not possible." "Not really." Something to that effect, indicating that this information, this event, comes as a surprise to him.

Q. As General Djordjevic is your superior, did you seek his instructions or orders with regards to this matter?

A. Yes. I said a little earlier that I was asking for instructions. I was asking to be told what I should do.

Q. And what did he say in reply?

A. He said that we would talk in about 15 or 20 minutes and then that he would tell me.

Q. Did a telephone call in fact come later?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was made -- it was made to -- to the police station in Kladovo where you were?

A. Yes.

Q. A few preliminary questions again before we get to the contents of that telephone call. First, who answered the telephone?

A. I can't remember. Perhaps I did, perhaps the chief of the police station did since we were sitting at his desk.

Q. And did you recognise the voice on the other end of the telephone?

A. Yes.

Q. Whose voice was it?

A. It was the voice of General Djordjevic. ⁹⁵⁰¹

Q. What did General Djordjevic tell you then?

A. General Djordjevic told me to try, in the course of the night, to transfer the corpses from the refrigerator truck to a different vehicle and to explore the possibility of burying the corpses somewhere in the area of Kladovo. He said that that was the order of the minister. And the general instructions were to this effect.

Q. When General Djordjevic told you that was the order of the minister, just to clarify, could you tell us which minister you're speaking of.

A. About the Minister of Internal Affairs.

Q. And who was that?

A. It was the late Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

Q. Did General Djordjevic give you any other instructions regarding the refrigerator truck?

A. I cannot remember exactly now whether it was during this second conversation or during subsequent conversation in the course of that night. Instructions were given to the effect that this object, this refrigerator truck, should be destroyed later, that information is not released, that none of us are to give any statements to the press or to the TV. These were additional orders, instructions, or tasks.

Q. And just to clarify, Mr. Golubovic, with regards to the destruction of the refrigerator truck and the restriction against release of information, did General Djordjevic indicate whether those were also instructions from the minister?

A. When he told me all of that, he said that all of this was said by ⁹⁵⁰² the minister. He referred back to this being stated by the minister. The minister probably told him that or he said that the minister told him that.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, did you then convey these instructions from General Djordjevic to the persons at the Kladovo police station?

A. Yes.

Q. Was action in fact then taken to carry out these instructions?

A. Yes. Then we agreed how to bring the refrigerator truck up from the edge of the river, how to get it up onto the road; it was 30 to 40 metres away from the river. It was very difficult to pull it out. They were not able to do that the day before. And that the next day we needed to have a larger piece of machinery which could achieve that. We were actually talking about all of this during subsequent conversations, but that at that time, we were talking about how to get the corpses out of the refrigerator truck. There were several matters: How to get the bodies out of the refrigerator truck, the vehicle that we were supposed to provide, where to bury them. We were talking about all of these different technical matters; to provide blankets and sheets for the transport of these bodies, to explore the possibilities since the instructions were such, to bury them somewhere in Kladovo where we were able to. So we undertook certain actions in relation to this.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, what -- in particular, what was done to get manpower to carry out these tasks?

A. The utility company was asked to provide a certain number of employees who would be able to carry that out, because the day before, ⁹⁵⁰³ these employees were taken from the utility company when it was still thought that this was a traffic accident. So they were kept prepared in case they were needed for certain activities relating to this.

Q. Could you please tell us the name of the utility company and what kind of company it was.

A. I think the name was Komunalac Kladovo, which is a utilities company dealing with all the communal services required by the town, and it is under their competence, I suppose, that the burial takes place, burials in Kladovo in care of the cemetery and so on and offering that kind of service.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, after these actions had been -- were under way, did you stay in Kladovo or did you then move elsewhere?

A. We stayed in Kladovo for a while, until the vehicle was taken to Tekija and all the technical matters seen to. And then later on, we started out for Tekija ourselves.

Q. And when you refer to this vehicle taken to Tekija, are you referring to this -- what are you referring to actually?

A. Well, the vehicle was taken from Kladovo and the communal service, the utility service, to Tekija, and we were going to transport the bodies in that vehicle.

Q. And just to clarify, that vehicle, was that a truck?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Did you then report these developments again at some point?

A. Well, we arrived in Tekija at about half past eleven at night. We ⁹⁵⁰⁴ went into the police station and their offices there, the premises they have in Tekija, and I was told once again what had happened from the time in Kladovo when we started thinking about how to deal with the situation, what had been actually done, and then towards midnight, half past eleven or perhaps later, I can't give you an exact time, I once again called up General Djordjevic and conveyed all this updated information to him and some of our requirements.

Q. Specifically now just focusing on what you told General Djordjevic. First of all, approximately what time was this telephone call made?

A. The telephone conversation took place at around 11.30 at night, thereabouts.

Q. Okay. And focusing, then, on what you told General Djordjevic, what did you tell General Djordjevic with regards to the burial of the bodies?

A. I told him that people were working to extract the bodies from the refrigerator truck on the banks and that they were loading them up onto the lorry, the truck, that it was a difficult task, and it was difficult to do it because it was dark, that there were no lights to be used, in view of the general situation that prevailed, and that transferring these bodies was difficult because it was a steep embankment, that it was heavy-duty work, difficult to do - that's what I was told - and that up until that point in time, just one of the bodies had been transported and transferred and we were still -- it was still considered that there were 20 to 30 of these corpses. ⁹⁵⁰⁵ However, when the first bodies were taken out, it was seen that there were more than 30 bodies in the refrigerator truck, and it became clear that the job wouldn't be -- wouldn't be finished by morning. That's what I conveyed to the general. And I also told him that I considered that we didn't have either the technical ability or the experts we needed to identify the bodies or to perform the autopsies on those bodies. And during that conversation - and he agreed to what I said - I also said that the best thing would be to send the bodies to Belgrade or Nis where there is a forensics institute.

Q. If I could ask you a specific question about that. When you made that suggestion, what was General Djordjevic's initial reaction?

A. Well, I put forward this proposal of mine, but the request was that his initial order stand, that what he said to begin with should be carried out, and that meant burying the bodies somewhere in Kladovo.

Q. Did you then pursue your suggestion further with him?

A. I insisted that this should not take place in Kladovo but that it should take place elsewhere where the conditions were better, where there were all the facilities to conduct these things, and where it would be easier to ensure the conditions necessary, because here there were -- there were the remnants of the bombardments and all the rest of it. It was difficult.

Q. When you insisted, did General Djordjevic say anything further in response to your suggestion?

A. No. On that occasion, he should that we should finish the job and that we should speak to each other once that had been done. ⁹⁵⁰⁶

Q. Approximately how long was that telephone call, this telephone call from Tekija?

A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I assume, once again, that this was ten minutes. We tried to make our conversations as brief as possible, without going into any superfluous explanations.

Q. Thank you. Going back to the work that was being done at the site of the refrigerator truck now, following this conversation, did the workers complete loading the bodies during that night?

A. Well, the workers worked up until 0200 hours, I believe, and then they had a pause. This was interrupted. And up until that time, some 30 corpses had been loaded up onto the lorry, onto the truck. I think the people were far too tired by that time to be able to do any more work.

Q. Did you at some point after that, update your superior again as to the developments with the refrigerator truck?

A. Yes. When we realised that it was impossible to carry on the work - and this was at 0200 hours - I phoned up the general again and reported back to him as to what had been done, and I told him that we had finished the job for that day or for that night, that that's as far as we had been able to get. And then in that conversation, I insisted again, I prevailed upon him again that the bodies should be taken to places where there were better facilities to carry out everything that had to be carried out; determination of identity, autopsies, et cetera.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, just on that specific point again, what did General Djordjevic tell you at this point in response to your suggestion, your repetition of your suggestion, rather? ⁹⁵⁰⁷

A. He accepted that. It was the last conversation we had that particular night. He agreed, and he said that the truck with the bodies should start out for Belgrade.

Q. And during this conversation, was there any discussion of another truck being used?

A. Yes. As we did not have any trucks free down in that area, I asked him to secure another truck from the ministry which would be able to carry the remaining bodies the next day and so that the bodies could be transported in it.

Q. And with regards to sending the truck that you already had at the scene towards Belgrade, were any discussions made about the arrangements by which that should be done?

A. Well, it was said that they should set off for Belgrade. And whether he was called or somebody else was called to whom I could give the mobile telephone number of the driver and the number plates so that an escort could be organised or so that somebody else could escort the truck to Belgrade, all I knew was that Belgrade was the destination that was given.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, when did you leave Tekija that morning?

A. The truck left at about 2030 hours -- 0230 hours, that is to say 2.30 a.m., and we discussed what should be done to finish the job, to load up the rest of the bodies and also where the bodies should be taken to once they reached Belgrade and what the people from Kladovo, from the police station there, what was in store for them that day, what they had to do, what work to finish. ⁹⁵⁰⁸

Q. And after having done that, what time did you yourself leave Tekija?

A. Towards morning. Whether it was 4.00 or 5.00 a.m., I can't remember exactly, but I left for Kladovo and stopped off at the police station. At 7.00 a.m., I was on the job in Bor.

Q. So you did not get any sleep that night; is that correct?

A. That's correct, yes.

Q. Did you learn afterwards whether the remaining bodies in the refrigerator truck were also pulled out of the refrigerator truck?

A. The following evening or the next day in the morning, I was informed from Kladovo that on that day, that is to say it was the 7th in the evening, that the rest of the bodies had been loaded up into the truck that had been sent from the ministry and that the truck was on its way to Belgrade.

Q. And who was it that informed you of this?

A. I was informed by the head of the department in Kladovo, Miladinovic. He was the contact person on the phone mostly.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, you had also testified earlier that General Djordjevic instructed you that the refrigerator truck was to be destroyed. Were you informed afterwards whether or not it was in fact destroyed?

A. I think that the refrigerator truck was transferred to the Komunalac company, where it remained for several days, and that it was destroyed subsequently.

Q. Who was it that informed you of that? Specifically that it was destroyed. ⁹⁵⁰⁹

A. Once again, the department head in Kladovo, because he was the only one that was -- had the authority and down the chain to inform me.

Q. And were you informed also how the refrigerator truck was destroyed?

A. They said that they tried to set fire to it first, and as that didn't succeed in destroying it, I think some explosives were used to destroy it.

Q. Do you recall where it was that it was destroyed, the location?

A. The refrigerator truck was driven off to the Petrovo Selo training ground, somewhere there, and that's where it was destroyed.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, with regards to the payment for the workers during that night, did you do anything in that regard following the work of that evening?

A. I'm not getting the interpretation, I'm afraid.

Q. Okay. I'll put the question to you again. Following the work that was done that night, did you do anything with regards to payment for the workers who were carrying out the work that night? Do we have a translation now?

A. [In English] No.

JUDGE MAY: Try again.

MR. SHIN: Okay.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm getting it now, thank you. Yes.

MR. SHIN:

Q. Thank you. Mr. Golubovic, the question was: Following the work that was done that night, did you do anything with regards to payment for ⁹⁵¹⁰ the workers who had carried out those actions?

A. Well, after some time went by, I asked the ministry to give me some money to be able to pay the workers for the work they'd done, and we received that money, that is to say 10.000 dinars, and we distributed it to the workers who had done the work.

Q. Approximately how many workers was that?

A. I don't know; four, perhaps six.

Q. Who specifically did you ask for these funds, these 10.000 dinars?

A. The general.

Q. Just to be clear, what was the name of the general?

A. General Djordjevic.

Q. Thank you. Do you recall who actually gave you -- gave you these funds?

A. I think his name was Aleksic. He was an employee of the ministry. And the funds were given to me. I gave it straight on to Toma Miladinovic, who went to Kladovo and paid out the workers.

Q. And were these funds provided in cash?

A. Yes.

Q. Regarding the -- regarding these events on the evening and early morning of April 6th and 7th, did you at any point issue any report in writing, setting out what had happened?

A. No.

Q. Is there any reason why you did not set out a report in writing?

A. The reason was that all communication had been destroyed. And I think that the ministry building had been destroyed a few days prior to ⁹⁵¹¹ that, so there were no -- there was no communication, and all that was left to us by way of communication was the telephone.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, were you at some point interviewed by members of a working group headed by Dragan Karleusa regarding this matter? Just yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall when that was, to the best of your knowledge?

A. I think it was in the middle of 1991. Approximately. I can't remember exactly.

Q. And prior to being interviewed by that working group, did you hear of any other police or judicial investigations into the refrigerator truck incident -- into this refrigerator truck incident?

A. I don't know. No. Not as far as I know. I don't really know.

Q. And given your competence as the chief of the SUP in Bor, an investigation of that -- of that kind, is that something that you would have been informed about?

A. Well, while I was working, probably it would have been.

Q. While you were the chief of the SUP in Bor, were you aware at some point of an article about this refrigerator truck published in a newspaper called the "Timok Crime Review"?

A. I think that the Krimi newspaper, although it's not one I read, did write about it. There was an article, I was told, where something had been written, but whether that was a conversation with General Djordjevic saying that he had been informed and then him having told me or whether I heard something about this and conveyed it to him, that was the gist of ⁹⁵¹² it.

Q. So did you at some point discuss this article with General Djordjevic, then?

A. Yes.

Q. And whether it was you who informed him or he informed you, do you recall what his reaction was to the publication of this article?

A. Well, both his reaction and my reaction was that it was unnecessary and not a good thing for the papers to write about things like that, but -- and that this should be something that the state organs should do and see to and not the general press at large.

Q. Are you aware that -- whether the state organs at any point while you were the chief of the SUP in Bor did actually publish anything regarding the refrigerator truck incident?

A. I don't know. I don't really remember -- or I don't know. I didn't read anything to that effect.

Q. Mr. Golubovic, you had mentioned in one of your telephone conversations with General Djordjevic during the night and the morning of the 6th and 7th of April, that you had suggested that the bodies be removed to a place where they could be autopsied and experts could examine them. Could you explain why it was that you made the suggestion to General Djordjevic?

A. Well, quite simply, I made the suggestion because we couldn't conduct that kind of work, as I said, in the Kladovo area, and it's part of the on-site investigation that is generally done in cases of that kind. Although the order for something like that to be undertaken should be ⁹⁵¹³ issued by the investigating judge or the prosecutor, by the organs of investigation and not the police as such.

Q. As you indicate that this kind of work is part of the on-site investigation that is generally done in cases of this sort, in your professional opinion as a senior police official, is it consistent with the criminal procedure law and with police practice to bury bodies without carrying out an autopsy?

A. Well, under normal conditions it is not, but in wartime conditions, there are different rules. There are always rules, but of course it depends on the prevailing situation.

Q. Do you know whether criminal investigations, some criminal investigations, were in fact carried out during the wartime?

A. You mean generally speaking?

Q. Yes, generally speaking.

A. Well, yes. All this connected to crimes that were carried out. We did our job. And during the war and at that moment, that was what was done. We undertook this kind of thing to prevent profiteering and crimes during wartime too. That was the normal run of things, the proper conduct.

Q. And Mr. Golubovic, just a couple of final questions here. Have you met the accused previously? Just yes or no, please.

A. Well, as a citizen, I did happen to meet him.

Q. And when did you first meet him? Approximately.

A. Well, approximately at the beginning of the 1990s when Mr. Milosevic used to undertake working visits to the copper mining and ⁹⁵¹⁴ smelting plant of Bor. And in view of the post I held with regard to the security of Bor, I was in a position to see and meet him.

Q. Can you recall approximately how many times you've met the accused?

A. No, I can't. I didn't count them. I really can't say.

Q. And, Mr. Golubovic, are you a member of a political party?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And which political party is that?

A. The SPS.

Q. Thank you.

MR. SHIN: Thank you. No further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Golubovic, I see that you were born in Pristina in 1937. Is this true?

A. Yes.

Q. Is your family from Kosovo as well?

A. My mother is from Kosovo, and my father is from the Timok Krajina.

Q. When did you leave Pristina?

A. We left Pristina in 1943.

Q. So during World War II?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did your family leave Kosovo? In view of the years, do you remember this from the stories of your parents?

A. I was six or seven years old at the time. I don't have any events ⁹⁵¹⁵ of my own, but I remember stories that my father was arrested then, in 1943, and that he was supposed to be transported for forced labour and that, on the way, he came out of the train and that my mother and I, at the end of 1943, also had to leave Kosovo.

Q. Regarding this event which is known as the refrigerated truck event, I see that you gave two statements, one to the working group of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia on the 12th of May, 2001, and the second to the investigators of the opposite side on the 7th and 14th of August, 2002. Are these dates correct?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Can you please tell me whether, before you gave your statement to the members of the working group related to the incident that you are testifying about, did you have any kind of formal or informal conversation with anybody from the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia?

A. No, I did not.

Q. So from April 1999 until --

A. Except with General Djordjevic once or twice immediately after that.

Q. This is what you were talking about a little while ago?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the meantime, you didn't have any conversations. Could you please respond precisely to this question: In this time interval from April 1999 when this affair ended in the way you described - so in the interval from April 1999 to October 2000 - did anybody from the Ministry ⁹⁵¹⁶ of Internal Affairs or the previous earlier authorities forbid you from talking about it?

A. No. No.

Q. Could you please tell me, which are the MUP workers from the working group who talked to you about this event? Because in this note here that I have, it just says "working group." The Official Note compiled by the working group, but it's not signed. Who talked to you?

A. The working group numbered three people, and I only know Karleusa. I don't know the other two members. Perhaps they introduced themselves, but I didn't remember the names. But I know Karleusa because he was in that working group.

Q. Very well. What was Karleusa's post at the time that he talked to you?

A. I think that he was the deputy of the chief of the department, of the administration department.

Q. Which department?

A. It was the department for organised crime.

Q. Do you know what his qualifications are?

A. According to what I know, I think he has university degree. I'm not sure, but I think that's what he has.

Q. And he's captain by rank.

A. Now he's a captain.

Q. Well, we could establish that from the testimony here. And as far as I can see, you worked for many years in the police and you have the rank of colonel. Do you consider him to be qualified enough to conduct ⁹⁵¹⁷ the investigation about this matter?

A. Viewing it from your point of view, according to what you said, he probably wasn't qualified enough. However, I was told that they had been entrusted by the minister to come and see me. So this is why I had this conversation.

Q. Tasked by Minister Mihajlovic.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you please tell me whether you gave them your written statement or was this note by the working group compiled based on their interpretation of what you said?

A. I did not give any written statement, so it was done on the basis of our conversation.

Q. So can I conclude on the basis of that that the note by the working group is an interpretation of the conversation that you had with the working group?

A. Yes. Most probably that's how it is.

Q. Since you are a police officer with a lot of experience, is it usual that when somebody's requested to provide a statement, for that person to give a written statement which is then attached to the note of the working group that is investigating something, or is this not usual?

A. A written statement is customary, along with an Official Note.

Q. And do you have any explanation why they did not follow the usual procedures but made an Official Note in this way, I would say in an improvised way, which is not signed and which has a sort of collective signature, "The Working Group"? ⁹⁵¹⁸

A. I do not. I do not have an explanation.

Q. And I'm interested, relating to what I have been asking you about, to what extent is this an interpretation of the working group of what you said? Can you explain to me some differences?

In the statement written by the working group, they say that you allegedly contacted General Djordjevic, asked him about publishing the specific event in the "Timok Crime Review," to which he responded that that was not good. But in the statement to The Hague investigators, you say something else. Unofficially, whether you said that or not. And now you stated that you talked to Djordjevic. It doesn't matter whether it was at your own or at his initiative that this conversation was conducted, that both his or your reaction was that it was not good for this to be discussed in the press, and that this was in the jurisdiction of the bodies.

A. Yes, yes.

Q. So this interpretation of theirs is quite free. And since we're dealing with this question, did I understand you correctly, since you mentioned several times the circumstances during the war, I assume that you had a lot of obligations, a lot of duties and that General Djordjevic even had more duties, was even busier because the whole country was being bombarded. At that time, did he have more important things to do and more important duties than this matter regarding the refrigerator truck?

A. I assume that he did. I also had other duties. I personally didn't deal so much with that case, in view of the overall circumstances, and I assume that this applies to General Djordjevic as well. But since ⁹⁵¹⁹ he's my superior, I was obliged to report to him.

Q. But from conversations between you and him, the interpretation of which, even though it's paraphrased, we heard a little while ago, it comes out that both you and he were informed that representatives of responsible judiciary organs were present on the location and that it was part of their duties. So concerning the police, the police informed the judiciary organs and those organs came out to the location, and then after that you didn't really follow what they did and the things that were in their jurisdiction, but both he and you knew that the investigative organs were informed about that.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that when the police informed the investigative organs about that, then they are authorised to order the investigative judge or public prosecutor what further actions they are to undertake relating to that matter?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that you did not consider yourself at that point to be responsible, you or Djordjevic, to carry out any further investigation regarding this matter but this was in the jurisdiction of these investigative organs who were undoubtedly informed about that? Is this so or isn't this so?

A. Yes, that is how it should be.

Q. Since there was a kind of mystification here, let me just make a digression about that, how employees were paid, whether that was done in cash or in some other way. These were labourers from the local area; is ⁹⁵²⁰ that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And how else can they be paid other than in cash? Do any of them perhaps have chequing accounts or credit cards, or do they operate through a bank? And how do physical labourers get paid in your area? Do they do it in cash or by cheque or through the bank?

A. They get their money in cash.

Q. And do any of them have chequing accounts?

A. I don't know.

Q. Is it likely for any of them to have chequing accounts?

A. We paid them cash.

Q. All right. Let us go on. Awhile ago you said that Toma Miladinovic on that day when you were informed called you at 1830 hours. How do you remember so precisely? You were near Tekija already on the 5th, 6th or 7th of April; is that so?

A. No, on the 6th of April in the evening in Kladovo, not in Tekija.

Q. Yes. You went to your subordinated police station in the municipality of Kladovo. I cannot say in your statement but in this Official Note of the working group, they quote you here as saying: "General Djordjevic did not tell me who he consulted with, but I have the impression that he spoke with the minister." That is what you said. Is that a correct interpretation? That is your impression?

A. That is my impression, but the interpretation is what I said today, that General Djordjevic, when he issued the order, referred back to the minister. ⁹⁵²¹

Q. Let's continue, I just want to check some of these things that are being stated here, how authentic they are.

When he confirmed -- well, you say you spoke to General Djordjevic sometime between 2200 and 2230 hours. "He said to remove the bodies and then he told me that the bodies would be sent for autopsy, that we were to prepare them all for transfer and that we were not to do it there in Kladovo since I had already informed him that we did not have the resources for it." So how did this whole thing proceed? If I understood correctly, when you informed him, you say first he was surprised and then, as far as I understood from this context here, he said for the autopsy to be carried out and for the usual procedures to be carried out. Then you told him that you did not have the resources for it in Kladovo, which is quite logical because Kladovo is a small town and it's difficult to provide such conditions. It's also on the border. And he accepted for the bodies to be transferred to another place. My question is: Did both of you, both you and him, note that it was necessary to carry out the criminal procedures, to process everything, to follow the usual police procedure; i.e., when in an investigation, the investigative judge and the public prosecutor are informed; is that true?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I said that we discussed this question on the occasion of our third conversation when I called him from Tekija, when I said --

Q. This is all on the same day?

A. Yes. Yes, that is all on the same evening. I suggested that to him, and I told him that that would be the first conversation from Tekija, ⁹⁵²² sometime before midnight, because this happened at night, and I said that he still continued to insist for the task to be carried out the way it was initially ordered. But only during subsequent conversations did he agree that we should proceed in this other way, that there was an autopsy that was necessary, that they should be sent to Belgrade, and so on.

Q. Very well. At the end of this Official Note signed by the working group, it says: "I consider that the prosecution was informed of the event. As to the concrete case, no report was received. And the present public prosecutor of the district prosecutor's office was the chief prosecutor's deputy at the time." There was no use of the term "state secret"; is that right?

A. That's right. The only term was that we should not divulge the information to journalists, the press, et cetera.

Q. But it wasn't officially termed "state secret," was it?

A. No.

Q. It was a working agreement, was it not, under the given wartime circumstances until they were able to ascertain what it was all about?

A. Yes, that's right, that we shouldn't write about it, hand it over to the press, or anything of that kind.

Q. You said that it was on the basis of the information that you had received by the several people that you mentioned that you were able to assume that the bodies were from Kosovo. And then asked during your examination-in-chief a moment ago why, what led you to make that conclusion and assumption, your answer was that it said Prizren on the truck. That's what you heard, what you were told by your subordinates; ⁹⁵²³ right? I understand that, yes.

Now, was -- were there any other indications, apart from the fact that the name Prizren was written up on the truck, that the bodies were in fact from Kosovo?

A. Well, the next indication was the clothing that the women wore.

Q. Well, what items of clothing did you find and which was recorded in any of the official documents, anything about that? Because during the testimony of some other witnesses which testified to the same incident, some said yes, some said no, some said some were wearing uniforms and then they said they weren't, that they were naked, that they were dressed. There were different statements. So what was it? What kind of clothing was on the bodies?

A. Well, Mr. Milosevic, as we did not conduct an official investigation, nothing was officially ascertained. So what I said was on the basis of what the two or three people who had opened the doors of the refrigerator truck said they saw. They saw that some of the female bodies were wearing pantaloons. But the bodies were not actually ever examined for this to be established.

Q. All right. The people who opened and closed the doors to the refrigerator truck informed you that there were 20 or 30 bodies there.

A. Yes. That was what they said first of all.

Q. Later on it was established that there were 80 of them, right? Or 80 something, I can't remember the exact figure, but the figure 80 was mentioned. That means that they just glanced inside and that they were wrong by two-thirds, that they were quite wrong as to the number of bodies ⁹⁵²⁴ in the truck.

A. Yes, that was the number that was bandied about first. It was only towards evening when the bodies were removed from one truck to the other they found that there was a larger number of bodies, in fact.

Q. Very well. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: There comes a time where we must adjourn. You have some more questions for this witness, I take it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I do, Mr. May. Yes, indeed. I've just started.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now. Mr. Golubovic, would you please be back tomorrow at 9.00 to continue your evidence.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

September, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.