¹¹⁵⁰⁶

Tuesday, 15 October 2002

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: DEJAN ANASTASIJEVIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] To go back to the previous question, you mentioned Andrew Purvis, the representative of Time magazine.

A. Andrew Purvis is the head of the department for Central Europe for Time magazine.

Q. Is it true that, with Purvis, on the 15th of July this year, while you were a witness here and giving statements, that you were in the Freedom Association, or rather, the National Committee for my defence in Belgrade?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, why did you represent yourself as being an interpreter at the time?

A. Because that was technically what I was at that particular time. Mr. Purvis was doing his journalist assignment, and I was just there to translate and interpret for him.

Q. And do you consider that it was proper conduct, in view of the fact that you were already a witness here, to represent yourself under ¹¹⁵⁰⁷ false pretensions there and to introduce yourself as being an interpreter to the people working in the committee on my defence?

A. That is not what I did. I did not introduce myself under false pretensions. I said I was a journalist but I was working as an interpreter at that particular moment.

Q. All right, Mr. Anastasijevic. Now, tell me this: With respect to the incident that took place in Tuzla in the summer of 1992, are you quite certain that you explained that whole incident to us as it happened?

A. If you have any more questions to ask, I said that I wrote an article, a report, ten years ago. I wasn't able to go through the whole article and report.

Q. Do you know Naser Oric?

A. No, I've never seen him in my life.

Q. As a journalist, did you attend any combat operation undertaken by the JNA from the time that you are testifying about?

A. The combat operation of Vukovar.

Q. You said here that the JNA was not in Vukovar.

A. I said that the JNA was not in the town itself or that there was no great JNA presence there, but the JNA was situated around the town and used the artillery with respect to the siege of the town and the attack on the town.

Q. And how do you say that the JNA gave logistic support to some kind of paramilitary units?

A. On the basis of everything I was able to see during my stay in Vukovar and its environs at the time. ¹¹⁵⁰⁸

Q. What kind of logistic support did you see there?

A. I saw that the so-called volunteer units were using weapons which in normal times were only used by the JNA and its units, and it was logical to assume that they had received it from the JNA itself. And also about the 20th of November, 1991, I happened to see guns, cannons, belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army attacking in the direction of the town, and at that time the Serb forces were taking control of Vukovar.

Q. You're talking about Serb forces. Do you mean the Serbs who lived in Vukovar and the surrounding areas?

A. I'm thinking about the JNA reservists, the volunteer units, and the members of the Territorial Defence units.

Q. Yes. But as you know, those are people who actually live in the area. They are locals.

A. Well, they might be members of the Territorial Defence, but at their head was a man by the name of Radovan Stojicic. He is no longer living, but he is not from that area. And as far as volunteers are concerned, they mostly came from Serbia, the majority of them.

Q. Do you know about the events that took place in Vukovar and the several months during which the Serb citizens were taken away, killed, investigations taken, initiated, they were detained, and everything that led to the conflicts in that area? And I mean Vukovar and the surrounding parts when I say that.

A. Well, what was happening to the Serb population I learnt from some of them quite a lot later, and that predominantly from the Croatian press.

Q. From the Croatian press, you say. ¹¹⁵⁰⁹

A. The Croatian papers, the Feral Tribune wrote extensively about the activities of Tomislav Mercep who, at that time, was a functionary in Vukovar and whose unit had abused the Serbs and taken them away. And I got the first information about that from the Croatian paper, the Feral Tribune.

Q. So when you were in Vukovar at the time, you talked to no one, you heard nothing about the killings, the arrests and all the other things that took place - how shall I put it? - all the other acts of violence, to put it very mildly, vis-a-vis the Serb population there in Vukovar and its environs and settlements around it.

A. I heard a lot of stories and rumours going round. Some of them were quite unbelievable, others I couldn't check out at that time.

Q. All right. You say that the Serb villages were completely under -- undamaged and the Croatian ones completely damaged.

A. I said mostly completely undamaged and mostly completely destroyed.

Q. That means that Mercep and his fighters who had killed so many people, Serb civilians over there, were not engaged in destruction of any kind in those villages.

A. Never in my life have I seen Tomislav Mercep, nor did I talk to him at all.

Q. You say that movement around the region of Eastern Slavonia was very dangerous at that time because the Croatian snipers were there and were active from the pockets, as you call them, in which they were located. ¹¹⁵¹⁰

A. Yes.

Q. From which positions did these snipers open fire along the positions of these territorial members?

A. When I was in Vukovar, they were shooting from Borovo Naselje settlement and a part of town called Mitnica.

Q. Did you hear at that time about how many civilians and soldiers were killed from these activities of theirs, these onslaughts?

A. It was not possible to get exact figures at that time.

Q. You said here that you conducted an interview with Goran Hadzic five or six days after the fall of Vukovar, I believe.

A. Yes.

Q. I didn't understand all this correctly, or if I did, it wasn't actually an interview, it was a press conference; wasn't it?

A. It was a press conference after which Goran Hadzic -- that is to say, after the press conference, he talked to journalists individually.

Q. And you said that some 15 journalists were present on the occasion.

A. Yes.

Q. And you say that on that occasion, he was fairly critically disposed or very critically disposed towards the JNA. Is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you say that the JNA gave logistic support to those units. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, does that seem to you to be illogical or not? ^{11511 BLANK PAGE 11512}

A. Well, I came to understand at that time that we -- there were political talks between Goran Hadzic and the authorities of SAO Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and the top military echelon.

Q. All right. Tell me, Mr. Anastasijevic, in 1999, you left Yugoslavia in the month of April; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. While you were a military conscript, were you not?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you come to leave the country then?

A. By bus, via Montenegro.

Q. Did you consider that, as a military conscript, you were free to leave the country during the NATO pact aggression?

A. In view of the circumstances, yes.

Q. Is it also true that once you left the country in the period between -- that is to say when you left and up until you returned, that you spent your time in Vienna?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you make a livelihood while you were in Vienna? How were you able to make ends meet?

A. I worked in the bureau of Time magazine for Central Europe.

Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Anastasijevic, did you ever conduct any investigations and research for any kind of Western house with respect to violations of the oil embargo on the territory of the former Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, I did write some texts and articles on that subject.

Q. Could you describe it to us, please. ¹¹⁵¹³

A. I remember a particular report, reportage, I think it was in 1996 or 1997, on the contraband of cigarettes and smuggling of cigarettes and oil from Montenegro. And I remember one of these articles that I was engaged in in 1994 with respect to the blockade of the Danube and how oil was being smuggled against that -- across the Danube.

Q. Is it true that you received money for taking foreigners to see where the oil embargo was being violated, where the FRY were violating the oil embargo?

A. I worked as a local producer for an Italian television crew, and in that capacity, I was paid a fee.

Q. Very well. You said how you had interviews with Raznjatovic, nicknamed Arkan, and that he criticised the JNA too and said that the JNA was not defending the Serbs. I understood you to say that. Is that right?

A. Yes, that he wasn't defending them sufficiently.

Q. On that occasion; as far as I understood you, he refused all assertions -- he denied all assertions that the members of his volunteer units took part in any war crimes whatsoever.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. You mentioned a special operations unit as well. Have you ever seen a special operations unit in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in Croatia at all?

A. No.

Q. Well, do you know that the time you are talking about, no special operations units were in existence at all?

A. If you're referring to 1991, then at that time, 1992, there were a ¹¹⁵¹⁴ lot of units that were called the Red Berets.

Q. All right. But you said that you didn't see them in Bosnia or anywhere else, these Red Berets.

A. I didn't see them personally, but I met him people who did.

Q. And did you know anything about the activities of the leaders in Vukovar, those people who called themselves the Ustashas? That's how they referred to one another. And Mercep was among them. Blago Zadro, Mirko Dragicevic, Jure Marusic, Branislav Glavas, all those names; have you heard of them? Mirko Glavas, Ante Budimir, et cetera? People who had organised themselves as far back as the beginning of March, 1991, in the Vukovar area.

A. I learnt of these names and heard about them much later, mostly from the press.

Q. Do you know what conclusions they had already brought in on the 10th of March, 1991? I mean the conclusions that they adopted according to which all Serbs should be dismissed from their jobs in the state administration, in the police force, et cetera, and that pressure should be brought to bear against them to leave the area, and where pressure wasn't working, then more drastic measures should be adopted, such as arrests, killings, and so on.

As a journalist dealing with matters of this kind and that area, did you know anything about that at the time or did you learn of it later?

A. I learned of it later from the information media. I learnt of some details. But at that time, I was not aware of the details. I didn't know about them with respect to the functioning of the Croatian ¹¹⁵¹⁵ authorities in Vukovar.

Q. Well, did you link up what was going on at that time with the resistance that the Serbs set up to those authorities?

A. As a journalist, I wrote articles and reported on what I saw happening in the field on the spot.

Q. Well, you said a moment ago that you saw no JNA operation taking place, either in Bosnia or in Croatia.

A. I said that I saw a JNA operation around Vukovar and in Vukovar itself.

Q. Yes. But you stated here that you were not present when anybody fell casualty, that you didn't see anybody kill anybody at that particular time, and that you did not see personally, yourself, any kind of violence taking place. So you moved around the area, didn't you?

A. I said that nobody had killed anybody in front of my own eyes, but I also said that I saw many signs that crimes were being perpetrated. For example, I remember very well I saw a soldier who just had a bloody machete of weapons, and when I asked him where his rifle was, he said he didn't need a rifle because the weapon he had with him was quite sufficient for him.

Q. And what did you conclude from this, from hearing what he said, that he was going around slaughtering people with that machete; is that right?

A. In my reporting, I just conveyed what I saw and I left the readers to make their own conclusions, having read the article.

Q. You say that in the war in Croatia, the state security gave ¹¹⁵¹⁶ military and logistic support through Mihalj Kertes, Stanisic, Brana Crncevic. You say that Brana Crncevic procured weapons. Do you know that he's a writer, that he was not involved in such things? And were you ever present when any such thing --

JUDGE MAY: Let him answer about that man you mentioned. Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to being a writer, as he still is, at that time, Brana Crncevic was head of Matica Srpska, which was registered as a humanitarian organisation, and he was often in Croatia and Bosnia in this connection. However, I also know that that humanitarian organisation did not only distribute humanitarian aid; cars were also involved. There was a lot of talk going around in those days that weapons were being distributed as well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know how old an organisation Matica Srpska is?

A. As far as I know, it dates back to the nineteenth century, but I don't see what that has to do with it.

Q. Well, he was a writer, president of Matica Srpska, and now you say that you heard that they were distributing weapons. Are you just presenting hearsay here, rumours you heard from someone that Matica Srpska was distributing weapons?

A. I heard from someone that Brana Crncevic, taking advantage of his position in Matica Srpska, was distributing weapons. Yes, that is what I said in my statement.

Q. Who did you hear this from, please? ^{11517 BLANK PAGE 11518}

A. I heard it from persons whose names I would not wish to mention at this point in time.

Q. But you are giving claims that are very serious. You say that you heard from some people, and you don't want to give their names. How is this possible, actually? How is it possible to check such information, then?

A. I don't know.

Q. You also mention Veselin Sljivancanin. Did you see one single crime that Sljivancanin committed, or did you hear that he ordered any crime to be committed? Did you know anything about that? Did you know of any crime?

A. I did not see that. I did not see my -- Major Sljivancanin at that time committing any crime, but subsequently I heard, like many people, what happened at the Ovcara farm where over 200 persons were killed.

Q. Do you have any knowledge about the involvement of the JNA in that which happened at Ovcara?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was involved from the JNA in that?

A. Major Veselin Sljivancanin who, at that time, headed the 1st Motorised Brigade. He allowed members of the so-called Territorial Defence to kill the people who were taken out of the Vukovar Hospital.

Q. On the basis of what can you claim that he allowed them to kill them?

A. On the basis of the fact that these people were taken out of the ¹¹⁵¹⁹ hospital in Vukovar by soldiers who were under the command of Major Sljivancanin, and on the basis of the fact that these persons were subsequently found dead. That is to say that they were either killed by JNA soldiers, which is probably not true, or, as I heard from many sources, that they were killed by persons from the Territorial Defence of Eastern Slavonia after the Yugoslav People's Army or, rather, Sljivancanin handed them over to them, to the Territorial Defence, that is.

Q. On the basis of what you've been saying, it means that they practically lost their lives in that local conflict, and you do not have any proof of Sljivancanin having handed them over. You simply infer this on the basis of the fact that some of them were taken away by soldiers; is that right?

A. I infer that not only be the basis of that but also on the basis of very detailed stories I heard from persons who at that time were within the JNA and whose names are well known to the Tribunal because these names are contained in my statement.

Q. All right. Let's just clarify this. You are talking about all of this as a journalist. You are talking about stories you heard from various persons who were moving about that area; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you personally did not see or hear any of the things that you are talking about except for these stories of these alleged eyewitnesses.

A. What do you mean specifically?

Q. I mean what I am asking you about; the role of the JNA, Sljivancanin, and so on. ¹¹⁵²⁰

A. Could you please formulate these questions more specifically. I saw certain things with my very own eyes, and I heard about others from others. It cannot be put that way, that I did not see anything and that I wrote everything down only on the basis of what I heard.

Q. All right. Finally, what did you see in relation to Sljivancanin, everything that you are accusing him of and the JNA? What did you see specifically?

A. I did not see Major Veselin Sljivancanin in Ovcara at the time. Everything I said in relation to Ovcara then was indeed obtained from statements made by persons that I talked to.

Q. Yes. But that happened in Eastern Slavonia, and according to the claims that you made, that is part of these local forces. What does this have to do with Serbia? Would you tell me that.

A. I said it has to do with the Yugoslav People's Army, I didn't say it had to do with Serbia.

Q. All right. You explain that there was not enough room in prisons and that the army opened camps in Serbia. Is this some assumption of yours? Could you please tell me where was a camp ever opened in Serbia?

A. Two camps were opened. One in the village of Stajicevo and the other in Begejci; that is to say both in Vojvodina. These were camps for prisoners of war from Eastern Slavonia.

Q. Oh. You are saying that when the army took people prisoner, that they held them in some centre of theirs; is that what you're saying?

A. I said the prisoner of war from Eastern Slavonia were taken to three places; one was the prison in Mitrovica where part of the prison ¹¹⁵²¹ was put under JNA control, and the remaining two places I mentioned are the ones that I referred to just now.

Q. What did the JNA do to these prisoners of war, as you say? How long did they keep them there? What did they do to them?

A. They kept them there until the agreement was signed with Croatia sometime at the beginning of 1992 about the exchange of prisoners, and these people who were then in the territory of the Republic of Serbia were exchanged or, rather --

Q. For imprisoned soldiers of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. Was any violence committed against them in those facilities where they were kept as prisoners of war?

A. As far as I know, no.

Q. Were they treated in accordance with -- in accordance with the way a civilised army, as the JNA was, was to be expected to behave?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that everything in relation to the events in Ovcara that you've been referring to was handed over to the military prosecutor and that it was the military authorities that were supposed to establish responsibility in this respect?

A. I am aware of the fact that some investigation was being carried out, but I never saw the ultimate findings of this investigation.

Q. Were you not interested in seeing what the investigation would establish?

A. Of course I was interested, but I simply never managed to get a ¹¹⁵²² hold of that.

Q. Let me just have a look. Our time is very short. Please. Your claim concerning Seselj, that he organised volunteers at the request of Jovica Stanisic, how did you come up with that claim?

A. This claim comes from Vojislav Seselj himself.

Q. Where and when did he make this claim to you?

A. At the headquarters of the Serbian Radical Party in the street called Francuska in Belgrade, sometime in 1994. I can't remember exactly what the date was.

Q. Do you have a recording of this conversation?

A. No. I did not record the conversation, I took notes.

Q. He claims, for example, that he never said that to you and that this is an absolute fabrication, which is, of course, what I had assumed.

A. I am not aware of Mr. Seselj having denied this.

Q. Well, you know that a vast number of articles were published about all sorts of things over these past ten years in various newspapers and magazines, and people didn't feel it necessary to deny 90 per cent of what was written there because people thought there was no need to do that. What does it mean that he never denied it? Does that mean that he confirms it if he never denied it?

For example, do you know that I personally never denied anything and that for ten years there was not a single newspaper that didn't write something against me?

JUDGE MAY: We're going some way from the point. The witness says ^{11523 BLANK PAGE 11524} that he doesn't know that Mr. Seselj has ever denied it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, you are testifying about things that you heard of. You're a journalist. Tell me, was there freedom of press in Yugoslavia over those ten years?

A. No. I could not put it that way, that there was freedom of press.

Q. What were the constraints on the press? Do you know how many newspapers there were, radio stations, TV stations; big ones, small ones, local ones, nation-wide ones, et cetera?

A. I know that your government had under very firm control media like the national television and major daily newspapers, whereas a small number of media that had a very limited circulation or a very limited range, as far as electronic media are concerned, were allowed to operate more or less freely, but these were very small media that certainly could not reach the wider public.

Q. What do you mean? Couldn't Studio B reach the wider public? Or Blic, for example, or your magazine Vreme; all these papers? There were a couple of thousand newspapers and weekly magazines in Serbia and an enormous number of electronic media, local media and so on. Did anybody restrict that in any way?

A. Yes, there were various restrictions, institutional and non-institutional. Those media that could significantly affect the public opinion, that is to say that had a large circulation or a wide range, were under government control, whereas the other ones, the small ones were there as a kind of alibi so that people could say that there was freedom ¹¹⁵²⁵ of press.

Q. All right. But was any newspaper banned over those ten years?

A. No. Open bans were rarely applied. But, for example, the daily newspaper Borba was taken over by the government, by a provisional ruling of a court. Studio B was put understate control a few times. And now that we are on this subject, yes, I remember that on the 9th of March, Studio B was closed and the police broke into its headquarters.

Q. That's the day when they were inciting violence. Do you think that that is the right of journalists, to incite to violence?

A. No, I don't think that journalists should incite violence, but I don't remember that that is what Studio B was doing at the time.

Q. Tell me, please, which were these newspapers that were firmly in the control of government?

A. Politika, Politika Ekspres, Vecernje Novosti.

Q. Why didn't you say Borba too, because Borba is a state newspaper?

A. Borba was partly within the federal -- beg your pardon, under the federal government in terms of being owned by the federal government, but it pursued an independent editorial policy. However, that cannot be said about Political, Politika Ekspres, or Vecernje Novosti during your rule.

Q. Tell me, please, you said just now that Borba was partly owned by the federal government. How come then, if it is owned by the federal government and if the federal government appointed the director of Borba, do you consider that to be a takeover the Borba?

A. As far as I can remember, this was some kind of a court ruling but I'm not really an expert in ownership matters. ¹¹⁵²⁶

Q. Let's not take go into all of that then, but let's take Politika, Politika Ekspres, and Vecernje Novosti, the newspapers you referred to. Do you know, for example, that in that period of time from 1990 until 2000, in these newspapers only, Politika, Politika Ekspres - to the least extent in Politika but in Vecernje Novosti too - how many hundreds of articles were published against me?

A. In these newspapers during your rule, I do not remember having read a single article that would be critical of your rule and your government.

Q. All right. Mr. Anastasijevic, as a journalist, why didn't you look at their archives and then you will see this story about a state media, what the situation actually was. But we don't have time for that now. I see that time is flying.

Tell me, so you claim that there was not a single article of this kind. Fine. This is a very good statement, a very useful statement. You explained that you were in Foca when you described the war in Bosnia.

A. Yes.

Q. When you were in Foca, the army of Yugoslavia was not in Foca at all; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. It was not there, right?

A. Yes. I said that the army of Yugoslavia was not in Foca.

Q. All right. Is it correct that at that time, those units were not there either, those units that you mentioned, the units of Vuk Draskovic?

A. Those units were in Foca. ¹¹⁵²⁷

Q. You know that at that time, as far as I can remember, I don't know if you can remember, this person Lainovic that you refer to, that he disassociated himself from Vuk Draskovic. He said he had nothing to do with Vuk Draskovic.

A. I said this in my statement and I repeat it now: That in Foca in 1992, I saw members of the Serbian guard, a paramilitary organisation, an organisation of volunteers, that for a while was linked to Mr. Draskovic's party. That's what I said in my statement and that's what I'm repeating now. As for political relations at that time between Lainovic and Draskovic, I did not go into that.

Q. All right. Since you are linking this to the party of Vuk Draskovic, was the party of Vuk Draskovic in opposition all the time? Was it against the authorities in Serbia? Were they not organising demonstrations and all the rest? Don't you remember that?

A. Not all the time, but for the most part, yes, because for a while, Mr. Draskovic was minister in your government.

Q. Which year?

A. In 1999.

Q. Oh, 1999. And until 1999?

A. Until 1999, this party was in opposition.

Q. What does this have to do with anything, then, what you've been saying? What does this have to do with this indictment?

A. I cannot say what various parts of my statement have to do with the indictment. You have to ask somebody else about that.

Q. All right. Mr. Anastasijevic, you were in Foca only for two days; ¹¹⁵²⁸ is that right?

A. Yes, two or three days.

Q. During that time, you did not see any crimes. Is that right or is that not right?

A. No. At that time, I did not see any crimes.

Q. You even say that there was not a curfew in place then; is that right?

A. Not while I was there.

Q. Well, how come you say that some 40 Muslims were detained or arrested? Have you seen this personally?

A. No. I heard it then from a man who at the time was at the head of the Crisis Staff. So he showed me the list with the names of these 40 people.

Q. Well, in your statement, you go to say that there was some forester who was in power then. What does Serbia have to do with forester in Foca?

A. That man with the nickname Sumar, whose name I actually can't remember right now, was an organiser, and in his restaurant, headquarters of Serbian guard was established with the people who mostly came from Serbia and from Kragujevac.

Q. And these are the people from this opposition party that you just mentioned; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that the army of Republika Srpska was a branch of the army of Yugoslavia. How did you come up with this idea? And don't you know ^{11529 BLANK PAGE 11530} that the army of Yugoslavia had absolutely no influence whatsoever over the command in the army of Republika Srpska?

A. I said that the army of Republika Srpska could be considered. I didn't claim that they were formally a part of the army of Yugoslavia, but factually they were. And I based this claim of mine on the fact that they paid out pensions, that the pensions for the officers of the army of Republika Srpska was paid out of Belgrade and that they actively were involved in supplying arms and participating occasionally in armed operations during the war.

Q. The economic aid to Republika Srpska in general is not contentious here, but don't you know that the army of Republika Srpska had its own command and that it had absolutely no command or disciplinary or any other link or connection with the army of Yugoslavia?

A. I know that the army of Republika Srpska did not have the same treasury with them, but I never said that they received commands -- their commands from Belgrade, or orders from Belgrade.

Q. But when you link this, whether you do it directly or not, but when you link these two things, then it creates an impression that they were part of the JNA, which is not true.

Now, tell me this, please: You say that the weapons were -- arrived from Yugoslavia. Do you know that in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the time of former Yugoslavia, in view of the concept of national defence and in view of the central position geographically of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that for that very reason, in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was the greatest number of weapons, warehouses, and military manufacturing ¹¹⁵³¹ facilities? Don't you know that?

A. Yes, I know that it was located in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. So there was no need, therefore, to send weapons to Bosnia and Herzegovina; there were weapons there already. So they simply had to take hold of those depots of weapons and so on.

A. I wouldn't agree with you. There was a need to send spare parts and ammunition and occasionally personnel. And I saw with my own eyes that the JNA actively participated in 1994 with their artillery from which they fired from Serbia in the direction of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Well, let's clarify that. I heard you say that before, and that is completely not true. Do you know that Yugoslavia lodged a protest to the Security Council because some shells landed on its territory? Yugoslavia never fired from its territory in the direction of Bosnia-Herzegovina. How did you come up with this?

A. I came up with this because I saw these guns with my own eyes.

Q. Did you see the guns, cannons, firing across the Drina River?

A. No. At the time I was passing by, they weren't shooting but I saw empty cases lying around which indicated there had been shooting recently. And then I heard from people who lived in Serbia, on that part of the river, that they couldn't sleep all night because there were guns firing.

Q. And that was during that battle in Gorazde; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. If you heard from people that they were unable to sleep, do you know that the Drina River is some 100 to 150 metres wide in that place and that Gorazde is located on the Drina River and that if there are guns ¹¹⁵³² firing some 100 or 200 metres away from you, that you would have no trouble sleeping?

A. They didn't say that they had trouble sleeping because of the guns in Bosnia. They said that what caused problem for them were the guns that were located in Serbia along the road near the Drina River.

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, any kind of positioning of troops in Yugoslavia was done just in order to protect, to defend Yugoslavia, and this is the first time that I'm hearing that somebody was firing from Yugoslavia towards Bosnia and Herzegovina. You didn't see the guns firing, but you're claiming that you heard from the villagers that they were unable to sleep at night.

JUDGE MAY: The witness has said this is what he saw with his own eyes. Now, there's no point going on about it as to what the villagers did or didn't say.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So you didn't see a single shell being fired from Yugoslavia towards Bosnia and Herzegovina.

JUDGE MAY: Isn't that precisely what you said you did see?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, let me just add this personnel factor: You said that the officers came to Republika Srpska from the JNA.

A. Yes.

Q. In the former Yugoslavia, the JNA existed in the entire territory of Yugoslavia; isn't that right? ¹¹⁵³³

A. Yes.

Q. Where did the officers come to the -- from to the Croat army and the Muslim army if not from the JNA? And I'm not here speaking about Mujahedin and the mercenaries that had arrived from various organisations such as Al Qaeda and others. I'm now referring to the officers of Yugoslav origin. Where did they come from?

A. Now you're asking me about the officers in the Croatian army and the army in Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, in view of the fact that all officers who existed in the former Yugoslavia were the officers of the JNA in 1991; isn't that right?

A. Well, those who were in the JNA were in the JNA.

Q. Yes. So therefore, there was nobody who could send them to Croatian army, or Muslim Federation, as they called it at that time. There was nobody -- nobody had to do it. Those officers who were from those areas of Yugoslavia became officers in those armies, and that applied to everybody; isn't that right?

A. No, it doesn't apply to everyone, and things are not as simple as you're trying to portray them, but could you give me a specific question, please?

Q. Tell us, please, those officers, including those who were in the Croatian armed forces and those who were in the army of Republika Srpska and those that were in Muslim formations, excluding Mujahedin and others that came from outside, were also officers of the former JNA.

A. If you're asking me whether some officers in the Croatian army or ¹¹⁵³⁴ the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina used to be formerly members of the JNA, then my answer is yes.

Q. Then why do you distinguish the officers of the army of Republika Srpska that also used to belong to the JNA and then later on became officers of the army of Republika Srpska?

A. Because all officers that originated from Bosnia and were of Serb ethnicity and were officers of the JNA, they had to transfer in 1992 to the army of Republika Srpska. There wasn't a single one who practically remained in the JNA.

Q. It is not true, Mr. Anastasijevic, that none of them remained in the JNA. Those who had Serbian or Montenegrin citizenship definitely were given an opportunity to remain in the army of Yugoslavia. And as far as the officers of Republika Srpska are concerned, do you think that somebody from Yugoslavia had ordered them to go to Bosnia, or perhaps they themselves wanted to remain there and to defend their villages and towns?

A. I never claimed that I saw an order, I saw somebody ordering them this. All I said was that I saw that they, in an organised way, transferred to the VRS from VJ.

Q. Do you know that while the JNA still existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there was one single military district in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that at the time the JNA still existed, General Mladic was the commander of that military district? Do you know that?

A. Yes I do.

Q. Then once they seceded and the civil war broke out, they established the VRS, which is quite logical because the Muslims had ^{11535 BLANK PAGE 11536} established their own army, and Croatia made an incursion across the Sava River into the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and started destructing areas there. Do you remember Sijekovac and Brod and other areas that were affected?

A. What was your actual question?

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, do you know how many Muslims there were in the VRS?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that there were several thousands of Muslims in the VRS?

A. No.

JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't know.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that there were entire brigades consisting of Muslims fighting in the VRS?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there's no point. He says he doesn't know how many there were. His point -- his evidence was on a very narrow point, which was to do with the officers being transferred. That's what he dealt with. You've got about ten minutes -- slightly more than ten minutes, but not much more, left.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In addition to saying that you don't know that somebody had issued this order to them but you assume that somebody had ordered them to transfer to the VRS, and then you also go on to list a number of reasons, ¹¹⁵³⁷ but you omitted to mention patriotism and the fact that those people went to defend their homes and people who, as you know, numbered 2 million. There were 2 million Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

A. Was that a question?

Q. Yes.

A. Could you please repeat the question.

Q. Are you saying that they went there pursuant to an order or they went there because they believed they had to defend from the aggression or, rather, from the violence that was committed against the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. What I said in my statement is something I will repeat now too. The officers who wished to continue their professional career in the military - and I'm not going to go into their personal motives now, so -- and those who were of Serb ethnicity and originated from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, if they wished to continue their military career and remain in the army, they had to transfer from the JNA to the VRS. That's what I said.

Q. That's not correct. Do you have any evidence to support this, that somebody had to transfer because he was ordered from the JNA to transfer to the VRS?

A. I have statements of a number of officers who at the time transferred.

Q. So they didn't transfer because they wanted to defend the people there but because somebody from Belgrade had ordered them. Is that what you're claiming? ¹¹⁵³⁸

A. I'm saying that they had to go there because, as professional officers, they had to continue their career. This is what they used to say to me at the time.

Q. Well, let's not waste any more time on this. You say that the border was closed, that that was in 1994. However, that one could pass through freely and that the weapons and ammunitions crossed the border freely. Why was the border closed at the time? That's my first question.

A. The border was not formally closed for any kind of traffic. It was closed within the framework of economic sanctions that you imposed against Republika Srpska due to political conflict with Radovan Karadzic. Therefore, the border was closed for the traffic of goods; it didn't apply to military transport.

Q. Can you tell me, what was this political conflict all about?

A. If I remember well, Radovan Karadzic refused to sign a peace plan that you supported.

Q. Do you know that this plan is actually known as Vance-Owen Plan and that was in 1993, not 1994, Mr. Anastasijevic?

A. There were a number of peace plans, and I can't remember now exactly whether that was Vance-Owen's Plan or Owen-Stoltenberg. All I know is in August of 1994, conflict broke out between you and Karadzic.

Q. As you know, Mr. Anastasijevic, this plan was in place in 1993. So this disagreement appeared in 1993, not in 1994. And this is when the blockade ensued. But do you know that Radovan Karadzic did sign that plan in the -- in Athens on May 1, 1993, in the presence of Cyrus Vance and ¹¹⁵³⁹ David Owen and Greek Prime Minister Mitzotakis and other representatives of Greece and international community? He did sign that plan. Do you know --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I think we're getting some way from this witness's evidence now.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this witness doesn't even know when the Vance-Owen Plan was discussed due to which a conflict broke out between us and the leadership of Republika Srpska, and he's claiming something that's not true. These facts are well known to the --

JUDGE MAY: It's barely relevant to these proceedings what he knew or didn't know and whether he can give a date for things or not. Now, let's move on to something which is relevant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, this witness is giving evidence about things that are much less known than these generally known facts, and as far as the generally known facts are concerned, he's demonstrating that he knows nothing of them.

JUDGE MAY: It's not a general knowledge test. Now, he's giving evidence about specific things. Now, have you got anything more you want to ask him, anything more specific?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. He, in his statement, said that due to a blockade in 1994, which followed the conflict that broke out regarding the peace plan, this is something that's not true. This peace plan was in 1993, and the blockade was in that year. And it's not true that Karadzic did not sign it. He did sign it, but the Assembly of Republika Srpska -- ¹¹⁵⁴⁰

JUDGE MAY: You've made your point. As I said, it's not a general knowledge test. Now, have you any questions about his evidence?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that a Bosnian Serb who worked in the state security said that he had been send to Velika Kladusa.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you allow for the possibility that, as you say yourself, he was a Serb from Bosnia, a Bosnian Serb, and Velika Kladusa is in Bosnia-Herzegovina also? So do you allow for a possibility that he went there as a volunteer or perhaps he had there business of his own? Who sent him there, the state security from Serbia, or you have something else in mind? Could you please clarify?

A. He claimed that he wasn't alone there. He was there with a number of other people that had worked for the police of Republika Srpska and that he had been sent there pursuant to an order from the MUP of Republika Srpska. What I thought was important in that story was that he and his people had insignia of the Fikret Abdic's unit.

Q. Do you know that Fikret Abdic's people and Karadzic signed a peace plan and there were 98 per cent majority of Muslims in that area and they had no trouble moving about Republika Srpska freely, working, engaging in commerce there, and they signed a peace plan?

A. Yes, I know that Karadzic and Abdic had a very good relationship for a time. I know Fikret Abdic left. I saw him myself leaving the building of the government there. And you know yourself this because you ^{11541 BLANK PAGE 11542} had a very good relationship with him yourself.

Q. Yes, I did have a good working relationship with him, and I supported every kind of cooperation with him because he wanted to secure a good life and good economic activity for people in that area. I know in Krajina, I know that he tried to revive the farms and agriculture in that area, and I thought it was a good idea to have peace established at least in one part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is there something wrong with that, Mr. Anastasijevic?

A. What I thought was particularly interesting there is that this member of the MUP of Republika Srpska fought in somebody else's army, in somebody else's uniform. Therefore, he did not have the insignia of the MUP of Republika Srpska or the army of Republika Srpska but he had insignia of the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, and that was quite interesting for me.

And as for the political cooperation between you or Karadzic with Abdic, this is something I cannot give comment on.

Q. How come you know that some people from Republika Srpska who might have been volunteers -- for example, perhaps they had relatives over there. As you know, there were many mixed marriages at the time, et cetera. So how do you know that he was sent by the MUP of Republika Srpska to go to Kladusa and fight there? Where do you get this idea from?

A. Well, he said he was ordered to do so, that is to say, to go there with his unit.

Q. That's what he told you?

A. Yes. ¹¹⁵⁴³

Q. What's the man's name?

A. Well, I have his name among my notes, but I can't recall it at present.

Q. Just let me have a look at my own notes here. You talked about and explained how Seselj told you that Stanisic had asked him what he did, and he said that is pure fabrication. Now, do you know what the relationships were between Stanisic and Seselj? Do you know that Seselj, on several occasions, was arrested, taken into custody as someone who was the president and present president of the Serbian Radical Party and that the interview that you are talking about, he gave to you when he came out of prison in 1995?

A. Those relationships with Stanisic and sending volunteers to the battlefront, he didn't tell that to me. He said it to many other journalists on numerous other occasions. And I'm quite sure, although at that time I didn't have a camera because I'm working for the press, that you would be able to find audio and television recordings of the statements made by Mr. Seselj.

Q. All right. And do you know that once he came out of prison in Gnjilane in 1995, that he had an interview with you?

A. Yes. That was one of the interviews I conducted with him.

Q. All right. Do you then assume that he cooperated with the people who had put him in prison?

A. The period in which Mr. Seselj claims that he did cooperate with Mr. Stanisic was the period of 1991, 1992, and 1993, not the period when there was a political clash between yourself and him. ¹¹⁵⁴⁴

Q. Well, it was well known that Seselj was in the opposition up until 1997.

A. I do know that he was officially an opposition member, yes.

Q. Well, Mr. Anastasijevic, I think you have just thought up what you say Seselj said. And you haven't got a tape or recording, although you all have the small tape recorders when you conduct interviews except you; is that right?

A. No, that's not right. Some people take notes, others like to make recordings. I myself prefer taking notes.

Q. And what do you think a politician can say, for example, in a political campaign that he is waging; that he's going to say things that are correct and things that are not correct or only things that are true and correct? What is your experience as a journalist? What do politicians tend to say?

JUDGE MAY: That's a general question which is not going to assist the Trial Chamber.

Mr. Milosevic, your last two questions, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only two questions? Only two more? That's very interesting. It's very difficult for me to make a selection now, Mr. May, but as this witness, fifth-hand witness is not a very significant one, it doesn't really matter. It's not important.

JUDGE MAY: There too we're getting comments, Mr. Milosevic. We'll consider what the significance is.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Anastasijevic, you said that there were policemen from Serbia ¹¹⁵⁴⁵ in Bosnia; right?

A. Yes.

Q. But I understood you to say that even you yourself say that they did not take part in any combat operations; right?

A. Yes, on the basis of what people told me. They told me they hadn't taken part in combat operations.

Q. All right, then. Is it logical or were you interested in finding out, if you met a policeman over there, that the job of the police force was to fight against criminals and that police forces cooperated in the struggle against crime, the police force of Serbia and of Republika Srpska in the struggle against crime, smuggling, unlawful dealings, and other criminal acts or, rather, the very fact that there was a war going on over there contributed largely to the increase of crime generally speaking? So did the -- did it ever occur to you that they were cooperating in this struggle against crime and that that was in the interests of all the citizens; Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and anybody else?

A. All I said was that there were exchanges of cadres and staff during the war between the MUP of the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia. That is to say that policemen went from Serbia to Bosnia and vice versa, that they went from Bosnia-Herzegovina to Serbia. That's what I said.

Q. Well, is it logical that the police force of two neighbouring countries -- police forces of two neighbouring countries cooperate amongst themselves in that basic job of theirs, which is the struggle against crime? Does that seem to you to be logical? ¹¹⁵⁴⁶

A. I don't know of the details of the arrangement that the MUP of Republika Srpska had with the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. All I said was what I had seen.

JUDGE MAY: This is your last question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. If it's my last question, can we agree over this point, Mr. Anastasijevic: That you are not testifying here about anything you have actually seen but only about what you had heard?

A. No, we cannot agree on that point.

Q. Well, I didn't expect you to agree either.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Anastasijevic, as you were in Vukovar, as you yourself stated, I should first of all like to ask you something with respect to what you happened to notice there.

In your interviews and also in your statement, you said that you know that a meeting was held between the representatives of the local authorities and the representative of the JNA.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that at that meeting an agreement was reached?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also true and correct that the agreement was the following: That the soldiers, Croatian soldiers taken prisoner, they would be cared ¹¹⁵⁴⁷ for and seen to by the territorial authorities, whereas the people who were taken prisoner, the Croatian soldiers who were in prisons in Serbia, that they would be taken over and cared for by the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that what happened in Ovcara only took place after that agreement came into being?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also true that you heard one version of all that from a high-ranking military representative of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that?

A. Well, it was about the fact that the army had handed over to the members of the Territorial Defence, led at the time by Radovan Stojicic, nicknamed Badza, these detainees on the factory farm of Ovcara, and allegedly it was said that they would be tried before the judicial organs of the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Eastern Srem [as interpreted]. However, they were not taken to court there but what happened was that they were killed as soon as they were taken over.

Q. The representative of the JNA at that time, was he Colonel Sljivancanin?

A. He was the head of the 1st Motorised Brigade, yes.

Q. Thank you. That's the first question I had for you. Now, moving on to another topic: As far as I was able to understand - I wasn't here when you were examined and questioned - but reading what -- your statement, you testified on -- basically on the basis of interviews that ¹¹⁵⁴⁸ you had with individuals and the stories you heard from them and then, finally, on the basis of what you yourself saw; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in this ten-year time period when you attended all these events, because you followed events in Bosnia and Croatia and in Kosovo as well, you were able to build up an opinion of your own, were you?

A. Yes. I have opinions on different things.

Q. But was any particular opinion of yours dominant?

A. Well, you would have to ask me --

Q. All right. Never mind. I'm not insisting on that point. But when you went in the field, did you have a journalist's assignment?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you act within that journalist's assignment?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. In your texts, articles, in the interviews you had with various people, did you deal principally with problems that emerged from the centralisation of power and authority in Serbia and the taking away of the autonomy of provinces? Autonomy, I mean here with respect to the right of veto as well?

A. What you're talking about is highfalutin politics. What I delved in was reporting from the field, from the spot, on location.

Q. But in your statement here, we see this to be dominant, that is to say that all the problems and issues you brought up before the Prosecution, you say that they were the result of what was done in Serbia, where autonomy was taken away. ¹¹⁵⁴⁹

A. I don't see -- say -- I don't know that I said anything along those lines with those words.

Q. Well, in your articles and the interviews you had with the people you talked to, did you look into the consequences that could result if the republics were to secede and the state wither away?

A. That was among the topics that I did discuss, yes.

Q. Now, I'm interested in one particular point in this regard, and I think you wrote about this in your articles, that the Ministry of Defence was created in Slovenia and Croatia much before they had actually proclaimed their independence.

A. Yes.

Q. How much time before this proclamation of independence?

A. Well, I can't really remember. Several months, perhaps a year.

Q. Now, do you know why Ministries of Defence are set up generally before a country is proclaimed independent under conditions in which there is no war yet?

A. I know that the Ministry of Defence is something that Serbia had in 1991 as well, the Republic of Serbia.

Q. Ah, yes. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you. Now the Ministry of Defence, as you described it, was founded later on, after the previous two ministries; isn't that right?

A. Yes, I freely admit that, yes.

Q. Thank you. And to move on to one other topic: You also wrote extensively about different problems. Now, in your articles, did you highlight the problem which existed in the minds of people not to have ¹¹⁵⁵⁰ history repeat itself, or was that just sort of propaganda?

A. Could you please be clearer? What do you mean?

Q. This fear that people could fall victim, that they could lose their lives for no reason that existed in previous times, many people were still alive, so was this fear realistic or was it just a result of propaganda?

A. Well, in some cases it was realistic fear. In other cases, it was just propaganda or the results thereof.

Q. Now, you also looked into the problem of refugees; how many refugees there were, where there were most refugees. Did you look into that and do you know that 600.000 or 700.000 refugees remain in Serbia?

A. Yes, I did deal with the problem of refugees.

Q. Where?

A. In my articles.

Q. And my last question: Do you know what happened in Zagreb after the killing of the entire Zec family? Was there a mass exodus of people from Zagreb?

A. I don't know about this. I don't know that there was a mass exodus of people from Zagreb. All I know about the event that you mentioned I know from the writing of the press and predominantly from what the Croatian press said.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. McKeon. MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Re-Examined by Mr. McKeon: ¹¹⁵⁵¹

Q. Sir, you were asked some questions about an event in Foca involving 40 Muslims. Do you recall that testimony?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. First of all, could you describe for the Tribunal the patch that was on the shoulder of -- I'm sorry. Could you please describe for us what you learned about these 40 Muslims when you were in Foca?

A. I learnt that these were people who had for the most part been in the leadership of the local branch of the Party of Democratic Action, or had links to the party, and that after Foca had fallen into the hands of the Serbs, the Serb forces, that they were arrested.

Q. How did you learn this?

A. I learnt this talking to the president of the municipality and president of the Crisis Staff, so-called Crisis Staff, of the Serbian municipality of Foca, as it was called then.

Q. Did you see anything in writing that contained any identifying information on these 40 Muslims?

A. I saw on the table of the president of the Crisis Staff a list of persons in alphabetical order with those 40 names on it, and he confirmed that these people on the list were indeed the people who were in custody in prisons.

Q. All right. I'd like to go back to your testimony about the Serb from the Serbian republic state security that you met in Bosnia. Could you describe for us the insignia that he had on his uniform?

A. When I talked to him, he was wearing civilian clothing, but from what he said, I learnt that he wore the uniform of AP Western Bosnia. ^{11552 BLANK PAGE 11553}

Q. What is AP Western Bosnia, or what was it at the time?

A. AP means Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, and that was the territory under the control of Fikret Abdic in the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, around a town called Velika Kladusa mostly. And Fikret Abdic, as the accused said, closely cooperated both with the accused and with Radovan Karadzic, and he actively fought against the government in Sarajevo.

Q. Did this person tell you what he was there to do?

A. He and his people, he said, had fought within the composition of a larger unit of armed forces of Western Bosnia in which there were quite a number of Muslims. And they were fighting against the 5th Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, around Bihac. They were actually trying to take control of the town of Bihac.

Q. Did he tell you what eventually happened to those Muslim members of his unit?

A. Yes. He was rather frustrated over it all, because after some sort of confidence was established between his own people and the Serbs, Abdic's people, that is to say the Muslims, one evening what happened was that a unit called the Panthers turned up. It was a special purposes unit within the forces of the Republika Srpska, and during that night they killed most of his men of ethnic -- of Muslim ethnicity. And he tried to complain about this, asked why it had happened, and the answer he was given, "Well, they're only Muslims." That was what he told me, anyway.

Q. Now, sir, did you give a written statement that you signed in the presence of an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor? ¹¹⁵⁵⁴

A. Yes.

Q. And was that interview signed sometime in July of the year 2000?

A. Yes.

Q. And was this incident that you've just described with the Serb from the Republic of Serbia state security described in your statement?

A. Well, to be quite frank, I can't remember whether that was mentioned, what I said a moment ago.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's been a mistake here. As far as I remember, the witness said that that member of the DB was a member of the DB of Republika Srpska and not the Republic of Serbia. So Republika Srpska is an entity in itself, DB being state security. So it isn't the Republic of Serbia, it's Republika Srpska.

JUDGE MAY: Let's ask the witness. You've heard what Mr. Milosevic has asserted. Could you remind us, clarify what this man was a member of.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a member of the state security of Republika Srpska. So not Republic of Serbia; that's right.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. McKeon, I'm not sure where we're going with this reference to the statement. We haven't had it exhibited and I don't think we want it exhibited now. The witness has given his evidence about this.

MR. McKEON:

Q. Sir, you were asked some questions about your interviews of ¹¹⁵⁵⁵ Mr. Seselj. I'd like to take you back to that. First of all, you said that Mr. Seselj was officially an opposition member. What did you mean by that statement?

A. Well, what I meant was that Mr. Seselj did not assume an official position in the power and authority of the Republic of Serbia, but informally, his power was there, his power was considerable. And de facto, in actual fact, he was part of the authorities.

Q. How many times did you interview Mr. Seselj?

A. Five to ten times. I can't remember exactly now.

Q. And did you publish articles based on those interviews?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Seselj ever come to you after you published one of these articles to tell you that you had gotten something wrong?

A. No.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Anastasijevic, were these interviews one-to-one interviews or was that like a press conference?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly when I say it was an interview, they were interviews between myself and him.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I'd just like to ask a question about the statement because there was a suggestion made that his testimony about Mr. Seselj was a recent fabrication.

Q. When you gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in the year 2000, did you put into your statement what you've testified to here today about Mr. Seselj claiming that Stanisic would call him up and ¹¹⁵⁵⁶ ask to get 120 people together to go to Vukovar, for example? Did you have that in your written statement of the year 2000, summer of 2000?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you review your written statement before coming to testify here in this Tribunal?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there anything in that statement that you saw was incorrect or, upon subsequent reflection testifying here today, you think is incorrect?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the introduction of that statement now at this particular point in time would not be in order because the statement has so many things that were relevant for an examination but was not the topic of the examination-in-chief. And now in this re-direct, the Prosecution is going back to it. I don't think that that is in order.

JUDGE MAY: It is on a very narrow topic alone, which is as to whether he's made up what he said about Seselj and the interview, and the Prosecution are entitled to rebut that suggestion by pointing out that there was a reference in a statement made in 2000, and on that narrow ground, they can refer to the statement, but not for anything else. Yes, Mr. McKeon.

MR. McKEON:

Q. In the articles you published about the Seselj interview, did you make reference to this statement about Seselj being asked to provide men ¹¹⁵⁵⁷ at the request of Mr. Stanisic?

A. Yes.

Q. You were asked some questions about Vukovar, Ovcara, and the event at the hospital. I'd like to take you back to that, if I could, just for a moment. You were asked, first of all by amicus counsel, whether you learned this information from a high-ranking member of the JNA, and I believe you answered yes. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell the Court who that high-ranking member of the JNA is from whom you learned information about the involvement of the JNA in the Vukovar-Ovcara massacre.

A. It was Aleksandar Vasiljevic who, at the time we're talking about, was at the head of the second administration of the Yugoslav People's Army, that is to say this was known as KOS, the counter-intelligence service.

Q. When you say at the time we're talking about, do you mean at the time of the events in Vukovar-Ovcara or at the time that you had a conversation with him?

A. I'm talking about the time when the events in Ovcara came to pass.

Q. And do you know whether there was any reporting relationship between Mr. Vasiljevic and Major Sljivancanin at the time of the Vukovar-Ovcara events?

A. General Vasiljevic told me that at the time these events took place, he was not in the environs of Vukovar himself and that it was later on that he learnt of the details. ^{11558 BLANK PAGE 11559}

Q. But my question is whether or not he told you that Major Sljivancanin, at the time of the events, somehow reported to him or worked for Vasiljevic.

A. I don't remember Vasiljevic having told me that Sljivancanin was under his direct command.

Q. And you mentioned a meeting that took place at the Velepromet before the prisoners taken from the hospital were murdered. Did you also learn that --

JUDGE MAY: He referred -- I don't think he referred to Velepromet. He simply referred to a meeting.

MR. McKEON:

Q. Do you recall -- first of all, that meeting that you referred to, from whom did you learn about that meeting?

A. Also from General Vasiljevic.

Q. And did he tell you where that meeting took place?

A. Yes. He said that it was held in the building that belonged to the company called Velepromet, in Vukovar.

Q. When did you -- did you interview Mr. Vasiljevic?

A. Yes.

Q. On how many occasions did you interview him?

A. I interviewed him together with other colleagues many times between 1994 and 1996. However, I have to point out that these were not classical interviews in the sense of everything being said there later published in the form of an interview in the newspaper concerned.

Q. This information that you've provided the Tribunal this morning ¹¹⁵⁶⁰ about what Mr. Vasiljevic told you about Vukovar-Ovcara, did you ever publish that information after your interview with Mr. Vasiljevic?

A. That information was published several times in my texts and in the texts written by my colleagues who talked to the same source, and this was published in the magazine of Vreme. However, we did not mention our source in our articles. That is to say, we protected our source.

Q. Could you tell us when that article was published?

A. Several articles were published in 1994 and in 1995, and after that, usually on the anniversary of the events in Ovcara. So practically every year.

Q. And just yes or no: Are those events also dealt with in the statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in summer of 2000?

A. Yes. MR. McKEON: That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Anastasijevic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

The Chamber will now adjourn. Twenty minutes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

--- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration. ¹¹⁵⁶¹

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: Witness C-1220

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a seat. Yes. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Good morning, Witness.

A. Good morning.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put a sheet of paper with the personal details to the witness:

Q. Witness, on top of this sheet of paper, there is a number. That's the number you are referred to here in these proceedings, and without mentioning the names and dates that follow on this sheet, just answer my question with yes or no.

On this sheet of paper there is a name, a birth date, a place of birth, and a family status written down. Does that refer to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the last line, in the last line, is this the post you held before the outbreak of the war?

A. Correct.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this sheet of paper needs to become an exhibit because it identifies the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. And the witness can give his -- or it can be ¹¹⁵⁶² given what he is to be called in these particular proceedings.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is C-1220.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. And the Exhibit number?

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be Prosecutor's Exhibit number 341.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it needs to be under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be under seal, confidential.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

Q. Sir, what is your ethnicity?

A. Serb.

Q. And you lived in Croatia?

A. Yes.

Q. Without referring to the -- your position, when did you stop working?

A. Sometime in June 1991.

Q. And why did you stop working?

A. Because the process of production stopped completely in that area. I mean, the process of work.

Q. And the other employees, were there both Serbs and Croats?

A. Mostly Serbs. Almost all were Serbs.

Q. And were they all laid off at the same time?

A. They somewhat earlier. And I, according to a telegram, was supposed to be on duty.

Q. Was an SDS party formed in your town?

A. Yes. ¹¹⁵⁶³

Q. When was this done?

A. Sometime in 1990, 1991. I don't know. Something around there. 1990, beginning of 1991.

Q. Did you join this party?

A. Yes, but not immediately.

Q. Why did you join the party? What was the reason?

A. The reason was that I heard Mr. Jovan Raskovic, and I realised that the Serb people have to go to elections on account of that.

Q. What did Mr. Jovan Raskovic say that you found so convincing that you joined the SDS party?

A. Well, as far as I understood him, Croatia would have to have respect for the Serbs and that, in that way, the Serbs would exercise their rights in Croatia, something like that.

Q. At that time, what was the atmosphere among the -- both people, Serbs and Croats, in Croatia?

A. In principle, it was good, but as time went on, there was more and more fear and more and more tension.

Q. What did the Serbs fear?

A. At all gatherings of the HDZ or any other ones, it was mainly bad messages that were sent to the Serb people.

Q. What do you -- what do you mean it was bad messages?

A. I remember, for example, even the top government officials in Croatia, for example Sime Djodan, when he said in the Easter message that Serbs were a disruptive factor and that they should be Catholicised, and there was more and more fear among the Serb people. ^{11564 BLANK PAGE 11565}

Q. Was a referendum held in your town at some point in time?

A. At one point in time, yes. I mean, the SAO Krajina should be established. That's it.

Q. And who organised this referendum?

A. Well, I think it was the SDS. I mean, that's the way I think it was. From Knin.

Q. And you said that the SAO was to be established. What was the exact question raised in the referendum? Do you know that?

A. I could not give the exact wording. It was something like secession from the Republic of Croatia. I don't know. I really can't say.

Q. And when did this referendum take place?

A. All of this was happening, I think, after what happened in parliament took place when some of the Serb MPs left parliament and never returned to it.

Q. This referendum, did it have an effect on the daily life in your town?

A. Ordinary people thought it was some kind of protection and that -- and that something would be established that would protect us. Well, to put it simply, that the Croatian authorities would not come to that area. That would be it.

Q. Your town is on the road -- belongs to the municipality of Ogulin; is that correct?

A. Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, you should have a look at the ^{11566 BLANK PAGE 11567} atlas to orient yourself. It's Exhibit 336. And if you look into the quarter D-2, you will find this town Ogulin. It's this orange --

JUDGE MAY: Which page?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 19. Page 19, quarter D-2, and you find there an orange highlighted town, Ogulin. And going further down south-west, you come across the place the witness lived. And even further down that same road, you come across Saborsko. It's actually in already D-3. And when you go further down that same road, you come to Plitvice. This is the area we are talking about.

Q. Witness, let us first speak about the road to Ogulin where your town was situated at. Was this road accessible throughout the year 1991?

A. No.

Q. What happened that you couldn't access it any more?

A. Well, you see, sometime around the month of June, after those events Plitvice, some kind of line was established and all communication was disrupted in that area.

Q. And who controlled the road then, the road between your town and Ogulin?

A. I don't know. What do you mean? What do you mean when?

Q. You said there was a line. Was it sort of a border?

A. Well, some kind of a natural border. This area over there was only populated by Serbs, and the other area was predominantly Croat. There was a mixed population. So there was this sort of natural border, and nobody communicated with anybody any more.

Q. Was there actually a roadblock, and if so, who controlled the ¹¹⁵⁶⁸ roadblock?

A. There were on both sides. At first there were some big rocks or some big pieces of wood on both sides. One on one side, the other on the other side.

Q. And who controlled these blockades?

A. Well, under the control of the Territorial Defence. Those were the very beginnings. There wasn't anything but the self-organised -- I mean, without weapons or, rather, with only hunting weapons. Those were the very beginnings.

Q. In your town, was there a police station?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a mixed police, Croats and Serbs, before the war?

A. Mixed, but there were more Serbs employed there.

Q. Did the Croats leave, the Croat policemen, did they leave at some point in time?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that and where did they go?

A. Well, they were there. One or two were from Saborsko, this neighbouring village, and ...

Q. Yes. And did they go to Saborsko?

A. Well, I think they did.

Q. Who was the chief of police at that time when the Croats left?

A. Father Dusan.

Q. Could you repeat the name? And maybe you'd speak a little bit louder. ¹¹⁵⁶⁹

A. Latas Dusan.

Q. And was he a local Serb?

A. Yes.

Q. Did new policemen replace the Croats that had left?

A. Well, yes, later.

Q. And those who came, the new policemen, which ethnicity did they have?

A. Serb.

Q. Were they local Serbs or did they come from somewhere else?

A. No, from there.

Q. And were they professional policemen, or what kind of people were they?

A. No, they were not professionals.

Q. Did they get any training?

A. Yes. A few younger men went for training to Knin and then they returned.

Q. Who trained -- do you know who trained them in Knin? Did they ever speak to you about it?

A. I don't know who trained them. I just know that they went for some training there and returned.

Q. And how many new policemen came and were trained in Knin?

A. Approximately -- well, I don't know exactly, but a few of them would go and then a few groups too, perhaps five or six from a certain place, and several such groups.

Q. And what kind of uniforms did they wear? ¹¹⁵⁷⁰

A. Well, they wore some camouflage uniforms, but they were predominantly blue as well.

Q. Did they have badges on these uniforms?

A. Well, I think the emblems were of the police of the SAO Krajina. I think that's what it was.

Q. Did these -- what kind of weapons did these policemen have?

A. Well, they had rifles.

Q. You mean automatic rifles? Did you hear my question? I asked you whether they were automatic rifles.

A. Yes, automatic rifles.

Q. Do you know whether they got these weapons in your town or in Knin?

A. I think in Knin.

Q. Why do you think that?

A. At that time, those were the very beginnings, we did not have any weapons.

Q. This police force, these new policemen, did they have a particular name for their unit?

A. They were usually called Martic's Police.

Q. Do you know a person with the name Medakovic

A. I do.

Q. Who was he?

A. When a municipality was established again there in my town when we were separated from the municipality of Ogulin, he was the first president ^{11571 BLANK PAGE 11572} of the municipality, and he was also the commander of these police called Martic's Police.

Q. Was he a professional policeman or what kind of a job did he have?

A. No. He was a student, but I don't think that he graduated at all. He was a student.

Q. So he was a local person, then? You knew him from before?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know a person Djuro Ogrizovic?

A. I do.

Q. Who was he?

A. He was from a place about five or six kilometres away from the place where I was, but before the war he did not live there. He lived somewhere around Celine. I personally did not know him from before. I knew him sort of just like this, but I knew who he was and where he was from, but I was never actually introduced, we never actually met.

Q. And you said he did not -- he did not live there. Where did he live before the war? Where did he --

A. Before the war, he lived in Zrenjanin -- no, Vrsac. In Vrsac. But his house was in this neighbouring village, his parents' house where he was born. That's where he came during the summer, but that's not where he lived all the time.

Q. And Vrsac, is that in Croatia or where?

A. No, in Serbia.

Q. What position, if any, did he have in your town when the war started? Or in summer, let's say in summer 1991? ¹¹⁵⁷³

A. Yes. He was with Martic's men. He was old. Well, sort of old. He had the rank of a colonel. Now, how this happened, I don't know. Some people said that he conferred it upon himself. He retired, but he was some kind of an inspector or something in the police force. I don't know which rank he actually had, but he did bear the rank of colonel.

Q. Where would you see him in town?

A. Well, I saw him in passing. This is a small town. It's not a big town, and everybody sees everybody.

Q. Did you ever talk to him?

A. Only later, when the war had already started.

Q. And what did you -- where did you meet him then and what did you talk about?

A. This was already later, much later, when the war was already in full swing. I don't know. Perhaps this was already 1993. 1992 or 1993. Often I saw him at barracks at the command of the brigade.

Q. These barracks and command of the brigade, was it in your town, in the town centre?

A. Yes. Yes, in the centre of this town.

Q. Did Mr. Ogrizovic, did he go to the brigade headquarters? Did you -- did you see him there?

A. Yes. Yes. He was there often, most of the time.

Q. Do you know whom he met there when he went there?

A. Well, for the most part -- well --

Q. Could you please answer my question. I had asked you when you saw him, do you know whom he met there, to whom -- what he was doing in the ¹¹⁵⁷⁴ headquarters?

A. Well, for the most part, he had dealings with these top people, senior officers.

Q. When you say "senior officers," army officers or police officers? Whom do you mean?

A. Army. Army.

Q. And you said that you spoke to him on one occasion, either in 1992 or 1993. What did you talk about?

A. I mean when I said that, actually there was this quarrel between the two of us.

Q. What did you quarrel about?

A. Well, he said that I was supposed to do a lot more because I held such a position. This was a big transport company and that I was supposed to do a lot more, and that made no sense whatsoever. And -- I mean, he was the only person who could think something like that. And in this way, he really wanted to provoke me. He made a few mistakes. I mean, he made -- he did a few things that were not really very good, and he did this at a Serb place -- of course, I did not know about that at the time.

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's difficult to see where we're going with this, and there seems to be a lot of detail that isn't going to assist us.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's a little bit difficult. I want to work with this witness to work out the role of this Ogrizovic in relation to the police and what he did. And what he actually did, the witness tries to avoid to say where he was working and to actually explain ¹¹⁵⁷⁵ what this person did.

JUDGE MAY: If he won't give the evidence, he won't give it, but -- very well. Perhaps he doesn't know.

Can you help us as to what this person did or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. Why not? He was in charge of this group of Martic's men. And in my opinion, in my opinion, the main thing he did was looting. But, for example, when somebody would come, it were as if he were some kind of an intelligence officer there in the area. When somebody would come, for example, from Rijeka via Hungary and Serbia to see us, he sort of interrogated these people. I think he's the one who actually took this upon himself. I mean, I don't really know how to express myself the right way.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, you said he did wrong things. Did you discuss what he did wrong with him on this one occasion? Did you accuse him of having done something?

A. I did. Well, had I known then at the time, then I would have. He mined the railway and also the electric pylons in a Serb place so that we were left without power for a while. And there were some other things. He never did it in a way where he could show his courage outside of the area controlled by Serbs. He had no courage to go to Ogulin or further away and do it there.

Q. So -- wait a minute.

A. And this is why we had to pay the price later on.

Q. You said that he mined the railway and also an electric pole. He ¹¹⁵⁷⁶ did that in Serb regions?

A. Yes. Yes. That's where the problem lies, because he did it in our area.

Q. And when did he do that? Was it before the war started?

A. Before. In the very beginning. He mined the railway line in a Serb place where there's only a school train going and carrying children of Serb origin. And had I known -- I was interrogated by the then-authorities about that. They wanted to see whether I knew of this. And had I known it at the time, I would have told them, but I learned of it later on.

Q. And when -- when he mined the electrical facility, what did it cause for the region?

A. Well, from Ogulin until our area in Saborsko, we all have the same line, and he was in this hamlet in our area. So they did this to the detriment of Saborsko. And then we had no power. We had no power after that.

Q. Were the Croats blamed for this mining? You said you didn't know that it was him at the beginning.

A. Well, I don't know who was, but there was an investigation launched in that area, our area.

Q. And when you confronted him on these matters when you met him in the headquarters, how did he react to this? Did he deny having done it?

A. No, he didn't. Then a very big argument broke out between us because for these very ...

Q. Were you mobilised into the Serb TO at some point in time? ¹¹⁵⁷⁷

A. Yes.

Q. And when was that?

A. I think it was sometime in July or August of 1991.

Q. Did you get a call-up letter, and if so, from whom?

A. From the TO who -- which organised it. It was from the command of the TO.

Q. Was it -- was it a general mobilisation for all the men in your town?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was the TO commander at that time?

A. Nikola Dokmanovic. I think he had a rank of major. He had graduated from the academy and then he worked in the municipality in the national defence office, and he was not in the army any more. He had graduated from a military academy and then was in the JNA, and then after that, due to family reasons, he transferred to the municipality, to the national defence office there in the municipality. So when in my place a municipality was established, he was at the helm of national defence as the most capable person.

Q. And when you were mobilised, did you get a weapon?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you get this weapon?

A. We got weapons from the army. The army armed that area.

Q. When you say the army, is that JNA or which army do you mean?

A. No, no. At the time when this was happening with the TO, these were the very beginnings. So we had no weapons at the time. But there ¹¹⁵⁷⁸ was a factory there which had some weapons, rifles, you know, for their own protection, and that was taken from them. And also hunting rifles were collected. Just any kind of weapons that were there. And that was in the very beginning.

Q. Did you later on get proper weapons?

A. Yes. Later on, yes.

Q. And who provided these weapons?

A. The army would bring in weapons at night and then overnight it would be distributed, and that's how it went.

Q. And when you say "the army," whom do you mean? Which army?

A. The JNA. That's who I mean.

Q. How did these weapons arrive? Were they loose or were they in boxes?

A. It was in crates.

Q. And was anything written on the crates?

A. Well, they were just regular crates and, yes, there was some marks on it, say 48. That's the type of the rifle. I can't remember all of the details.

Q. What did they do with the crates?

A. Once the weapons were distributed, we set the crates on fire.

Q. Why did you do that?

A. Well, we were told to burn the crates.

Q. Who told you to burn the crates?

A. Well, the command. The army, I guess.

Q. And you said that you received the weapons at night. At what ¹¹⁵⁷⁹ time? I mean not the exact hour, in which time period did you receive such weapons?

A. Usually after dark. Once it became dark.

Q. And which ones?

A. Early 1991. I think it was then or around there. I don't know exactly.

Q. You --

A. No, not in the first half. No, it wasn't in the first half. It could have been September, October, then, in 1991.

Q. Did you also receive uniforms?

A. Afterwards, when the uniforms came in from somewhere, I guess from some warehouses, then we were given uniforms later on, but not in the beginning. We first received weapons and then uniforms.

Q. And who provided the uniforms; the local people or again the JNA?

A. I don't know. It was a uniform from the JNA. I don't know where it came from, but there was a warehouse in my place, and then also in the vicinity of my place there was also a JNA warehouse there with a large number of uniforms there.

Q. Did JNA officers arrive in the town later on?

A. Yes, later on.

Q. When did they arrive and who arrived?

A. Well, I don't know. I can't give you the date. I know it was late autumn, maybe October or November. As far as I can remember, 18 officers of the JNA came on that occasion.

Q. Where did they come from? ¹¹⁵⁸⁰

A. I think they came from Belgrade or somewhere there. That's what we were told, at least.

Q. Do you know from which corps, from which army corps they came?

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. When these officers arrived, did they -- did they change anything in the TO?

A. Well, yes. After all, it was a more structured command. The discipline was better. They raised the level of discipline, and it was along those lines.

Q. Was a brigade formed after they arrived?

A. Yes. They simply took over the TO command, the command of that brigade that was self-organised under the TO. They simply improved it in a professional sense.

Q. And did this brigade have a name?

A. I think so but I can't remember any more. I think it was 124th Light Infantry, but I'm not sure.

Q. And who was the commander of the brigade?

A. You mean then?

Q. Yes.

A. When these people came? Petar Trbovic.

Q. And did he have a rank?

A. Colonel.

Q. Was he a professional JNA soldier?

A. Yes, I think he was.

Q. You said that there was a headquarters in the centre of your town. ¹¹⁵⁸¹ Was it actually -- was this the headquarters of the brigade?

A. Yes, the command of the brigade.

Q. And was it in a military facility from before the war, or where was the headquarters?

A. Before the war, in my place there was a military barracks, and it was there that the command of the brigade was.

Q. How many battalions did the brigade have?

A. Three.

Q. And in which battalion were you?

A. I was in the 3rd Battalion.

Q. And who was the commander of the 3rd Battalion?

A. Grba, Bogdan. In the beginning he was offered that position.

Q. Was he a professional soldier?

A. No. He was a reserve officer.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to discuss with the witness a military map. And, Your Honours, you have this map in your binder. It's tab 9 in the Exhibit 326.

JUDGE MAY: No, it's not. Let it be formally exhibited.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 326, tab 9.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, this map, did you have time to study this map after your arrival in The Hague?

A. No.

Q. Witness, look at the map. Look also on top of the map, what is ¹¹⁵⁸² written on top of the map, and please study the legend. It is a map referring to the attack on Saborsko. It's a military map.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, for your information, this map was provided by the Croatian government, and we will refer to the authenticity, we will provide additional information on this matter in the course of the trial.

JUDGE MAY: I just wonder if this witness, since he doesn't seem to be familiar with it, is the best witness to produce it.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think this witness is very excited. This is at least the impression I got from him. So I would like to repeat the questions now that he had looked at it.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because I think he's very excited and --

Q. Witness, look at the map. And did you see -- did you discuss this map, when you came to The Hague, with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see this sort of map, did you see this sort of map during the events?

A. No.

Q. You, in your -- and would you, in your position as you had at that time, would you handle such maps, or who would handle them?

A. Your Honours, I'm not an officer at all. I don't hold a rank, so these abbreviations and terminologies are not something that I know. I am an ordinary soldier. So I wasn't able to participate in creation of this ¹¹⁵⁸³ map, nor did anyone ever ask me anything about it.

Q. These maps are handled by officers and not by the soldiers themselves; is that what you say?

A. What I mean is that this plan of attack, nobody asked me regarding this anything, nor do I know anything. Well, how could they ask me this? Professional people developed this. I never saw this before. This is the first time I see this map with this -- with these markings. I saw maps before but without these markings.

Q. Witness, we just want to discuss a few matters on the map with you. You do not need to know the details, and there is no indication that you made the map or were involved in it.

Where was -- when you look at the map, where was the head --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness explained several times already that he had nothing to do with this map. There is no reason to go into details. There is no sense in --

JUDGE MAY: All right, Mr. Milosevic. We're with you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know anything about it. He can't help us. Now, it may be better if you ask him if he can give some evidence about the events. It may be better if we lay the ground in that way, and then it may be possible for him to refer to the map, but he can't produce it for the reasons the accused rightly gives; he doesn't know anything about it.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the reason why I used this map ¹¹⁵⁸⁴ with the witness is actually the reason -- this is the best map of the area, the most detailed map, and actually, when we come to the details, what was where and which unit was where, he is well able to explain it. This is the reason why I introduced the map, but --

JUDGE MAY: Maybe. Maybe. But the way he's giving his evidence, let him give his account and then we'll come back to the map if it's possible, but at the moment it's not.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, you said that --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can put the -- for the time being, we can put this map away.

Q. Witness, you said that Mr. Trbovic was the commander of the brigade. Do you know to whom he was subordinated?

A. I think that the next area of military formation was Korenica. They had a division there. And then Knin was above.

Q. And do you know where the headquarters of the Korenica division, as you say, where it was situated?

A. I think it was in Mukinje, on Plitvice Lake.

Q. And how do you know that? What information did you get to this effect?

A. Well, I have no information. It was just known that it was up there. Division, the command that was in charge of the brigade. Everybody knew this.

Q. And do you know the name of the commander in Mukinje?

A. I knew the name of the commander, but right now I can't remember. ¹¹⁵⁸⁵ It won't come to me right now. I can't remember right now.

Q. Was there a military headquarters also in Slunj or near Slunj?

A. Well, there was a military exercise area between my place and Slunj, and it belonged to the former times when we had Croatia there. And there was a large military formation stationed there. And that's in the area between my place and Slunj.

Q. And how far is it away from -- this military facility, how far is it away from Saborsko? Can you say?

A. Which one do you have in mind? You mean the training area?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, the training area, this exercise area, well, it's hard for me to say now. It's not far. Perhaps ten kilometres from Saborsko.

Q. And who --

A. Through the woods. And if you took the road, it would take longer. But if you took a shortcut through the woods, it would be about ten kilometres.

Q. And who was the military commander of this place, this military training place?

A. The commander of the training area was -- I don't know. He was called Ledeni, which means "frozen," and held the rank of general. I think it was the rank of general.

Q. Do you know a Cedomir Bulat?

A. I don't know him personally, but I know of him. He was a colonel, and in his staff he was one of the leading senior officers.

Q. Did you -- ¹¹⁵⁸⁶

A. But for a while in the beginning, Stipetic was commander, General Stipetic, in Slunj, in the training area, in the beginning.

Q. Let's speak about Cedomir Bulat. Did he come to your town and meet the military staff there?

A. Yes. He used to come and meet people, yes.

Q. Did he meet with Trbovic, the brigade commander?

A. Well, I don't know. I didn't see that. But I'm sure that he did meet him, because he went to the command, and who else was he going to meet there; the commander.

Q. Was he the superior of Trbovic?

A. No. I don't know that they had a -- that there was a hierarchical link between them. They both had the same rank. So I don't think that one was subordinate to the other.

Q. When the JNA officers arrived, did the TO also receive different weapons, artillery weapons? Do you know that?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did they receive?

A. I think mortars, smaller and larger ones, 170 millimetres or 105 millimetres, I don't know, but thereabout. Those types of mortars.

Q. Did the local TO members operate such weapons or did JNA soldiers operate such weapons?

A. Well, the TO was trained. These officers who knew this trained others, and there were people there who served in that branch of service when they were in the army. So they knew about this.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to go briefly into ¹¹⁵⁸⁷ private session just to explain the role that the witness had in his unit.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because it's quite identifying.

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[Open session]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. In the beginning of your testimony, we spoke about where Saborsko was situated, that is on the road to Plitvice. Could the people from your town travel on this road to Plitvice freely or was it blocked at some point in time?

A. Up until the first conflicts - how can I put this? - communications were normal. But after the events had started, you couldn't go along that way any more because, quite simply, communications were severed. You couldn't move along that road any more.

Q. Saborsko, is that a Croatian village?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Was there a police station in Saborsko?

A. No. ¹¹⁵⁸⁹

Q. What --

A. Not before the war, no.

Q. And during the war? In November, for instance, in November 1991.

A. Well, that's -- let me see. November 1991. No. November 1991. Well, I don't know. I don't know about that time.

Q. Do you know whether there were Croatian soldiers in the village before it was attacked?

A. It was rumoured that there were Croatian soldiers there.

Q. Who said that?

A. Well, that is what was rumoured. And they said that Saborsko was a stronghold. That was the information that was coming in.

Q. But who said that?

A. Well, who. The officers there in their normal communication amongst themselves. Now, whether they did or didn't have proper information about that, I don't know, but those were the kind of stories going round.

Q. Was Saborsko attacked, and did you participate in this attack?

A. Yes.

Q. When was it attacked?

A. I think it was in November 1991, thereabouts. At least in the first half of November, I think.

Q. Before this attack occurred, when did you learn that it would happen? Who informed you?

A. Well, in the evening, the commander of the battalion said, "We're going to Saborsko tomorrow, and the following will be going: You, you, ¹¹⁵⁹⁰ you, and you." Because we were just attached to -- as reinforcements with all the technical staff and equipment that was already there.

Q. And before you were told that you had to participate, did you see troop movements? Before that evening.

A. Well, yes. You could see tanks coming in. There were several tanks. APCs, armoured personnel carriers; they were on the move.

Q. Did you see General -- sorry. Did you see Cedomir Bulat in your town before the attack?

A. Yes, I did. He passed that way. You could see him.

Q. Where did you go for the attack? Was there a gathering place?

A. Yes, a small village nearby. Its name is Licka Jesenica.

Q. Did you arrive with a group of people from your unit?

A. Yes. There were about 20 to 30 of us in that group, in my group, the one I was in.

Q. And when did you arrive there? Was it in the morning or the evening?

A. Well, it's not far from my village. About eight or nine kilometres away. So it doesn't take long when you're in a car, in a vehicle. So it was in the morning the day before.

Q. And when you arrived there, how many soldiers did you see, approximately?

A. Well, it's difficult to say. Several hundred, I would say, but again I can't be sure.

Q. Those soldiers that you saw, were they all from the local TO or were they others as well? Can you say? ¹¹⁵⁹¹

A. The army and those of us added to it who were mobilised.

Q. When you say "the army," whom do you mean?

A. The JNA.

Q. Those JNA soldiers, were they conscripts, do you know? Did you talk to them?

A. I didn't talk to them. As I say, I had my assignment. Everybody was deployed and given an assignment of his own.

Q. Did you see policemen also at this gathering place, Licka Jesenica?

A. The police were there, but I didn't see them because they were sort of on the other side. Yes. You mean the police.

Q. You have mentioned several of the commanders of the Martic police, and you mentioned Djuro Ogrizovic. Was he there?

A. Yes, he was there. I didn't see him, but quite certainly he was there. Because as I say, those policemen there from the other side, they had -- I don't know how to explain this to you. I learnt that here about this other business.

Q. Did you see Mr. Bulat?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What -- when did he come and what did he do?

A. I think that he commanded the entire operation.

Q. Why do you think that?

A. Well, because he was leading the operation. He was in command with that training facility and all the people that had come in, and he led the operation. ¹¹⁵⁹²

Q. Did he address the soldiers, including you, at Licka Jesenica?

A. Well, you see, we came to Licka Jesenica sometime during the morning. We were there all day and all night. It was very cold, and we had to be there among the houses. We were pretty nervous by that time, and people didn't like having to be there. And in the morning, I know that he lined all the soldiers up and explained what they were waiting for, that it was bad weather, in fact, that the weather conditions were bad and that the planes could not fly. Along those lines, that's what he said, and that we'd have to wait.

Q. Did he tell you what the purpose of this attack was, why Saborsko was attacked?

A. Well, it's like this: Saborsko is a place, and my own village was under siege. It was surrounded on all sides. You couldn't get out from any side. So it was in a complete encirclement, completely under siege. I don't know. I didn't take part in the life of Licka, but I did hear that the leadership was on the move towards Saborsko and that they wanted to have the roads opened, that the communication lines should be open and that not a hair of anybody's head should be harmed. But these things weren't enforced in Saborsko. You couldn't get in and you couldn't get out. And Cedo explained this in that way, that it had to fall in order to be able to link up the Serb lands and get out from that place because you couldn't get away from there. It was in an encirclement. And there were shortages of everything; salt, fuel. No strategic fuel of any kind. Shortages.

Q. Can you -- can you describe to us how Saborsko was attacked? What ¹¹⁵⁹³ happened first? You have already mentioned aeroplanes. Was it attacked by air?

A. Well, yes. The planes attacked from the air. That's clear. And of course there was the artillery. They went first. And then the infantry attack came next.

Q. The artillery, where was it positioned? Are you able to say?

A. Well, it's like this: The artillery was up along those hills, and they were the ones that were able to launch the operation. There were just several tanks that opened fire on this Saborsko area, but all the others were positioned on the elevations round about, and that's where they could act from.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's now 12.15, so it may be convenient moment.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Witness C-1220, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. During the adjournment and any others there may be during your evidence, please don't speak to anybody about it. Don't let anyone else speak to you about it until it's over, and that includes the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, may I be permitted to make a short observation in relation to the evidence?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Ms. Higgins. We've had some correspondence about your position, but we shall allow you to make the submission. ¹¹⁵⁹⁴

MS. HIGGINS: I'm grateful, Your Honour. It's a very short submission just to say that the evidence so far has been led to some extent by my learned friend, and it's perhaps important that in relation to the remaining evidence concerning the attack on Saborsko, that it is the witness who gives the evidence in response to non-leading questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sure Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff will have that in mind. I think it's slightly harsh criticism, but let us go on.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, before the break, you had described that there was -- that there was artillery in the hills. Do you know who operated this artillery, which units?

A. Well, I think it was that mortar unit, the one 120-millimetre one, and I suppose the 82-millimetre one. And on the training facility, there were 130-millimetre ones. I don't know, are they guns, cannons? Whatever. And their range, they have their range. And there were several tanks there too. They were active as well.

Q. And when you speak about the training facility, do you mean this JNA training facility that you mentioned before near Slunj, or is --

A. Yes. Yes, that's right. That's the one. From that area. So I suppose they are long-range weapons that can operate from that distance and that territory.

Q. And you have already mentioned the infantry. From when did they get engaged and from which direction did they approach Saborsko?

A. Well, please, how do you mean which direction? What do you mean ¹¹⁵⁹⁵ and when? Could you clarify that question, please, what you mean by it?

Q. When did the infantry attack, and from which direction did they attack?

A. Well, it's difficult for me to be able to tell you that now, but after the artillery opened fire, then the infantry came in after that. From a number of directions and axes. They came to Saborsko from several directions. All I can tell you is in the direction I came from and engaged in.

Q. Which direction did you come from?

A. Well, it's difficult for me to explain. There's that road there, and it curves, and we took a shortcut through some woods and some thickets, and we came out onto Semnicka road, which was a dead end. It ended in the forest. It was a big forest and the road didn't go any further than that. So they were conifers, that kind of forest. And the group I was in, we had to cut across there. Not follow the road but to cut across, take a cut and come onto this Sumska road in the forest and take up our positions there and see that nobody appear from the forest. So that was my task, the one I was engaged in.

Q. Is that actually before Saborsko, in the direction of your town?

A. Well, looking at it from my direction, it is before Saborsko but to the east of Saborsko. So it is from that area there where I was stationed and my group. You can't see Saborsko from there at all. All you can see is two little hamlets. Their names are Tuk, that's one, and the other one is Solaje. Those two little villages. Just a few houses, hamlets, actually. Tuk also is composed of just a few houses, and so is ¹¹⁵⁹⁶ Solaje, several Serb houses there. And Dumencici, another small -- another hamlet, several houses only.

Q. What exactly was your task in that place that you reached? What did you have to do?

A. Well, I wasn't quite clear on what we were supposed to do. This Sumska road that was a dead end, that didn't lead anywhere, just served as a way out of the forest, we were to stop there and see that nobody came from the forest. The enemy, the Croatian army, in fact. That was our task and assignment.

Q. Your unit, did you actually get engaged in fighting with the Croats?

A. No.

Q. Did Saborsko put up resistance? Do you know that?

A. No. I don't think it did, no.

Q. Was any Serb soldier killed during this operation?

A. No.

Q. Was anyone wounded?

A. One person was seriously wounded - he lost an eye from a mine - and another one was just slightly grazed. Just a slight injury there.

Q. Where did this incident with the mine happen? Was it on -- when did it happen?

A. Well, when he was passing by that way, he came across a mine that had been placed there by the infantry. Now, when the mine had been laid there, I don't know.

Q. When you were in this place, in this place where you were -- where ¹¹⁵⁹⁷ your unit was sent to, you said you could see these three villages, Tuk, Dumencici and Solaje. When did you see in these villages?

A. Well, I saw them -- actually, it's only those three hamlets that you can see from the position I was in. You can't see any of the rest of Saborsko from the forest. So when they came in, they were small houses, mostly wooden houses, and they were set fire to.

Q. Who set fire to them? Did you see that?

A. I didn't, but the soldiers that were moving along that way, whether it was the army or the Territorial Defence or whoever. The Serb forces, whichever they were, they set fire to them.

Q. Did you actually see them setting fire to the houses?

A. No. And I couldn't because we just saw that the houses were burning. Now, who had set fire to them, we -- I don't know. We couldn't see that. It was quite a long way away. You couldn't recognise anybody from that distance.

Q. You just said you couldn't recognise anybody from that distance. Did you see people setting fire on the houses that you did not recognise?

A. Well, yes. I saw people, but I couldn't recognise them, see who they were.

Q. How did they put fire to the houses? Could you see that?

A. Well, when they entered the village, they set fire to it. That's it.

Q. While you were in this position, did you see any higher ranking officer?

A. Not there, no. At least, from where I was standing I couldn't ¹¹⁵⁹⁸ see.

Q. While you were in this position, did you have radio contact? Did you have any communication, not you personally but the unit, with others?

A. Yes, we did. We had a radio transmitter.

Q. And to whom did you have contact? Can you tell us?

A. Well, with the command, those who were in command. He was sort of a leader for our group. He communicated with them, and I know that he said that it was our task to stay there in that position until the order for withdrawal came, and we spent the whole time there at that position.

Q. When did you withdraw and where did you go?

A. It was night-time already. We had withdrawn to the centre of Saborsko and went to the houses after that from there.

Q. When you reached Saborsko, in which state was the village? What did you see?

A. Everything was set on fire, was burning.

Q. Did you see who did that, who set the houses on fire, or were they already burning when you came?

A. They were already burning, all of them, when we came.

Q. What about the public buildings in Saborsko? Were they also set on fire?

A. Right there, there's only the school building, and that hadn't been set on fire yet while I was there. And there was a shop inside or, rather, a makeshift shop in a room of the school building. You know, it's a very small place, so this was just a small sort of shop.

Q. Does Saborsko have a church? ¹¹⁵⁹⁹

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, happened to the church?

A. The church was still standing. Nothing had happened to it. Perhaps it was hit with a projectile of some sort, but it hadn't been destroyed at the time.

Q. You say "at the time." Was it destroyed later on?

A. Yes, it was, later on.

Q. How was it destroyed and when did this happen?

A. When it happened, I do not know, but it must have been a fortnight later or a month later when it was mined.

Q. When you arrived in Saborsko, were there many soldiers there? Whom did you see?

A. Yes, there were soldiers. All of them were soldiers.

Q. Did you see any police staff present?

A. Well, yes. There were some policemen there too. The police had come out there from all sides. They'd all come down into the centre and then they were all sent back. There was no command there at all any more.

Q. When you -- when you arrived there, what did the soldiers and the police do? What did you see them do, if anything?

A. Well, as I've just told you, the whole -- it was already night-time. Everybody was gathered there. All I can say is that I saw them start looting. Several of them, they started looting that shop.

Q. Who did that? What kind of persons did that?

A. Several people. Two or three of them. It was only them that could have taken it into their heads to do something like that. ¹¹⁶⁰⁰

Q. Who do you mean by "them"? You said it could only be them who --

A. Well, those -- how can I put this? The people that suddenly took it into their heads to start looting.

JUDGE MAY: Look, you've said there were police and soldiers. Now, was there anybody else in the village? Can you just give us a short answer, please? Who was it who was looting?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it would be about two or three people from the so-called Martic police.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Did you see any Croats when you were in Saborsko at that evening?

A. I saw a few people, very old. Just a few very old people as they were passing by.

Q. Did you see any bodies, dead, dead people?

A. No. No, none.

Q. While you were in this Saborsko and saw the burning houses, how did you feel? What impression did it make on you?

A. Oh, terrible.

Q. Can you be more specific?

A. Well, I can. I had never seen any such thing in all my life, so it was a terrible thing for me to see. There were people who were around me who were sort of laughing, and I said, "That is pitiful. And if this ever happens to us, you're going to see it's going to be even worse." It just crossed my mind then.

Q. Who were laughing? What people were laughing; soldiers, policemen, or others? Who? ¹¹⁶⁰¹

A. Well, they the soldiers. Well, look, I mean, there were so many people I don't know. There was such a lot of commotion there. There were people there that I had never seen in my life or people who I did not know at all. I mean, I cannot know everybody or, rather, I cannot know every single person from that area.

Q. Did you see any commanders there, higher-ranking soldiers such as your battalion commander or even his superiors, in Saborsko?

A. Yes. His superiors, yes, but I did not see him. I saw him only when we returned to that neighbouring village.

Q. Who is "him"? You said "him." "I did not see him. I saw him only when we returned to the neighbouring village." And who is "him"?

A. Commander of the battalion. The commander of my battalion.

Q. That's Mr. Trbovic.

A. No, no. No.

Q. Who, then? I mean, can you tell us the name?

A. Grba Cedo Bulat.

Q. Did you see Mr. Bulat in Saborsko?

A. No. I'm telling you not in Saborsko but when we returned from Saborsko. Over there in Licka Jesenica. That's when I saw the commander of my battalion, Cedo Bulat, and some other officers, other officers who had ranks.

Q. Was any Croat killed in Saborsko? Do you know that?

A. I know that. That is the first thing I came to know. When we were that first position that I mentioned. The first thing that this group of mine came to know was that there were dead people. ¹¹⁶⁰²

Q. What kind of information was that and what did you learn?

A. Behind this group of mine that was sort of deployed there, there was another group behind us near the woods, and then from that group, a man came by and he was crying. Tears were rolling down his cheeks, and he said, "They killed Pero Krtan." Pero Krtan was a merchant, an honest man, in my opinion. That's the first thing I came to know.

Q. Who else was killed? Do you know?

A. We heard that there were two men with him, that they were killed and that he was killed.

Q. Do you know who killed them?

A. I did not see that, but rumour has it - I don't know if I have to mention the name --

Q. If it is only rumour, no. Thank you. How many people -- how many Croats were killed on that -- during this attack? Do you know that?

A. Well, I didn't know. I thought that with the shelling and artillery and -- I don't know what else. Well, we had some information that about 20 persons were killed.

Q. Was your unit involved in the burying of the bodies of these killed people?

A. This was in the area of responsibility of my battalion, but, no. It was people from the brigade, older people in their 60s who went -- well, this was called -- well, these -- this company of older people. They went to bury the dead and also the animals.

Q. Was an excavator used for doing this?

A. Yes. ¹¹⁶⁰³

Q. How do you know that?

A. Well, I had to provide fuel. My battalion was supposed to provide fuel for its operation.

Q. During the attack, did you see any of the police commanders that you mentioned, that is Medakovic, Latas, Ogrizovic? Did you see them on that day during the attack?

A. Not on that day. I did not see them. Well, I mean -- well, not there. I mean, they were on the other side, that's why.

Q. What do you mean they were -- on which other side were they?

A. We were to the east, and I later found out that this police was operating down south. So we were pretty far away if you look at the entire area.

Q. Was Saborsko -- what happened to the villagers, the Croat population of Saborsko? Do you know? You said you didn't see them, just a few old people.

A. They were collected and brought to this neighbouring Serb village. That's where they were put up. They were given tea, sandwiches, and the next day, they were dispatched onto buses. There were about 50 to 60 of these elderly people there, and they were brought to that line by Ogulin, and they were allowed to go.

Q. When you say "line," do you mean this line that you describe between the Serbs and the Croats?

A. Yes. Yes. Yes, but the other side, towards Ogulin.

Q. Was Saborsko the only Croat village in the region? Were there others? ¹¹⁶⁰⁴

A. Well, it's the first one on that side. I mean, it's the first Croat village. And then there's this other very small one and then there's Rakovica, Slunj. These are places that are surrounded, but they are Croat places. And then the rest are Serb areas. So these are three places -- well, sort of biggish, but I mean, they are villages, basically. Perhaps Slunj is a bit bigger, but yes, there bigger places.

Q. What happened to these Croat villages?

A. Well, I don't know. Slunj, Rakovica, they all fell ultimately. And then from Knin to Belgrade, the entire area was Serb.

Q. Did you travel through this region? And what did you see?

A. I did not travel then in those parts.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could you please bear in mind the fact that it is five minutes past one.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-1220, could you please explain something to me. Let us clarify something about Saborsko. You said that Saborsko was a major stronghold of the Croat forces; is that right?

A. Yes, well, based on assumptions, based on what these officers said.

Q. All right. As for the rest that you've been saying, that's not based on assumptions; namely that because of that stronghold, your municipality was under blockade. And also the larger part of the territory on the other side of Saborsko, if I understood it correctly, and ¹¹⁶⁰⁵ you did not have any possibility to communicate further on towards other parts of Krajina or, rather, you said that you could not even obtain supplies and that you were running out of everything. Is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Is it correct -- it is my understanding on the basis of what you've been saying during your examination-in-chief that the army asked the Croat forces in Saborsko to have free passage along this road and that no one would be in harm's way and that nobody would be attacked or jeopardised.

A. Yes. These sort of authorities at that time in Plaski, that's what people said. Everybody talked about that. And this offer was made several times.

Q. And they did not want to allow for these communications to be linked up?

A. That's right.

Q. So in your municipality - I tried to write down what you said - you had shortages of all kinds, even of salt let alone anything else.

A. Yes, because we could not go anywhere. We were cut off.

Q. So you were under a total blockade?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that this unit of the army that happened to be there and the training facility that you referred to, et cetera, that they were also under blockade?

A. Well, they were in that area.

Q. Does that mean since, as you had put it, several times they ¹¹⁶⁰⁶ proposed to the Croat forces to allow free passage along the road and they did not allow that, that it was then necessary to deblockade the road or, rather, to eliminate this stronghold in Saborsko in order to deblockade the road?

A. Yes.

Q. Your answer was yes?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any other way of deblocking the road? Was there another road that could ensure supplies and that made it possible to communicate?

A. Well, there were forest paths, but it's impossible to pass that way. And that was not under anybody's control. This was never safe. Do you see what I'm saying? Nobody can pass that way safely because Serb forces and Croat forces, anybody could be in that forest. Nobody can have safe passage there.

Q. All right. It seems clear that this task that -- this road that you wanted to deblockade was the only one that could be there.

A. Yes.

Q. And this deblockade was attempted after how many requests put forth to the Croat side to deblockade the road?

A. I just heard that this was requested or offered or whatever several times.

Q. And you said in addition to this offer that what was guaranteed was that nobody would get in harm's way.

A. Yes. Yes, that everybody could pass down that road, that they should just be released to go down that road. ¹¹⁶⁰⁷

Q. So they should just be released and allowed to take that road.

A. Yes.

Q. Now that you are talking about the forces around Saborsko --

A. Can I just say something else? I cannot claim this, that this is exactly the way it was, what I said just now, because I did not really participate in any of this, but everybody talked about this.

Q. I understand. You were a soldier, not an officer. I fully understand what you're saying.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you say that you did not talk to the military. You said that awhile ago when answering questions, and you did not who was there, because you were asked about that.

A. I don't really understand what you're saying. Could you please clarify what you're saying?

Q. Well, you were asked how come the army was there, and it was the army that was there in the training facility.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So we've clarified that. And then you were asked whether the police was there, and you said that you did not see the police but that they must have been there.

A. Yes.

Q. How come you know that they must have been there if you did not see them?

A. Well, how do I know this? I know because people talked about it later. But I said that I was on the other side and that I could not see ¹¹⁶⁰⁸ them.

Q. Oh, I understand that. So you could not see them. All right. Also, you were asked, for example, whether Ogrizovic was there too, and you answered: "Yes, certainly. I did not see him, but he must have been there." So you did not see him but you believe that he must have been there.

A. Yes, yes.

Q. All right. How come these houses were on fire? Due to the artillery fire, or did you see that somebody came and torched them intentionally?

A. I did not see anybody torching them but everything was on fire. Everything was on fire. All of it was set fire to.

Q. So is it your assumption that this was due to artillery fire or had somebody intentionally torched the houses?

A. Both are possible.

Q. Both are possible but you cannot testify about that?

A. I cannot because I did not see anyone personally setting the houses on fire.

Q. So you did not see anybody personally setting the houses on fire. You say that there were some dead on the Croat side. As far as I understood this, you heard somebody from the neighbouring detachment say this to you, that Pero Krtan got killed. And when this man said that, he cried because he had heard that this man had been killed. Is that right?

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. Tell me, how come you know that anybody else was killed? ¹¹⁶⁰⁹

A. Well, this man said it. He said, "They killed Pero Krtan," and then he was crying. And then he said, "And two more men."

Q. Yes. And how come you have this information? I understood it that way. I don't remember whether you said it or the other side, when they asked you; how come you had this information that 20 people were killed there?

A. Later on, people found out. Later on it was heard that there were about 20 dead.

Q. Oh, so there were rumours to the effect that there were 20 persons who were dead.

A. Well, that's what people said. I tell you, I did not see anybody. I did not see a single casualty. I myself did not see any casualties.

Q. All right. But you did hear that Pero Krtan was killed.

A. Yes. That is the first knowledge that this group of mine got. This is the first knowledge that we had of anybody being dead in Saborsko. Until then, we did not hear that anybody got killed.

Q. All right. When you say that some old people went to bury the dead, you mentioned that an excavator was used, but you also mentioned that there were animals there that had been killed too.

A. Yes.

Q. So do you assume that this excavator was used, not for burying people but for interring the dead animals?

A. Well, this is the first time that I heard that this area had to be mopped up. That's the first time I ever heard that word used.

Q. So that means that the killed livestock should be buried and so ¹¹⁶¹⁰ on. Did you hear anything about the burial of people?

A. Yes. I heard that they found some people who were dead, dismembered bodies. I heard that. This is probably due to the missiles that fell there.

Q. All right. So you heard that this Pero Krtan was killed, and they told you that two more people lost their lives.

A. Yes.

Q. Do I infer correctly on the basis of what you've been saying that everybody who got killed got killed in the shelling? Is that right?

A. Well, I would not put it that way. Pero Krtan and these two men, in my opinion, are the only ones who did not get killed during the shelling.

Q. So how did they lose their lives?

A. They were killed.

Q. Oh, they were killed. Do you know who killed them? Does anybody know?

A. Well, people talk about this, who killed them, but I did not see this. People know the names of these persons who killed them.

Q. So names were mentioned as to who had killed them?

A. Yes.

Q. See, I wonder -- I wonder about this information that you are providing. I have this statement of yours. Let me just find it, the one that you gave in Karlovac. In Karlovac. So -- it says the Republic of Croatia, Ministry of the Interior, Police Department Karlovac, criminal investigation police, anti-terrorism section, and then it says "Official ¹¹⁶¹¹ Note."

In that Official Note, you do not mention that these three men were killed. I assume that you do have that statement that you made, don't you? It says here: "In the direction of the attack where my company was moving, nobody was caught alive, and I also claim that I did not see a single dead body. People had probably fled and withdrawn before we came. Just as we were in Saborsko, one of our soldiers, Bogdan Cubra, came in tears and said they had killed Pero Bicanin nicknamed Krtan. And he had actually been killed by Peic and those others who were with him. I did not see this personally. I believe Cubra saw it for himself or he found Pero dead. They were close," meaning to say that they were close friends; right?

A. Bogdan Cubra and Pero Krtan knew each other and were good friends.

Q. Yes. But you don't know that he saw him or that he found the dead body of Pero.

A. He said that that man had killed. This is what he said. And I couldn't assert this because I didn't see this myself. This is what he said.

Q. And what explanation did he give? Why did that person kill Pero Krtan?

A. Well, that's my opinion. I'm giving you my opinion. Those two or three men who were there, the way I see it, those were people who just couldn't fit into any society, and the time came when they did this. It's not that they bothered them, that Pero Krtan was a Croat, it's just that ¹¹⁶¹² he had several thousand Deutschmarks on him.

Q. So you're trying to say that Pero Krtan was killed for -- in an attempt to rob him.

A. No, no, no. You didn't understand me. What I'm saying is that those people that, according to Bogdan Cubra killed him - you know, he said that those people killed Pero Krtan - those people killed Pero because they thought he had money, not because he was a Croat.

Q. Well, that's exactly what I said. They killed him in order to rob him, not because he was a Croat.

A. Yes.

Q. They killed him because they thought he had money.

A. Yes.

Q. They killed him because they wanted to rob him.

A. Yes.

Q. Well, according to what you said here, you didn't see anybody get killed. You heard that Pero Krtan had been killed. You believe that he had been killed because it was a robbery, and that's all you're saying.

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that there were some 50 to 60 Croats there that were collected, taken to another village. They were given sandwiches; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then the following day, they were taken in a bus to a line where the territory under the control of the Croatian army started?

A. Yes. ¹¹⁶¹³

Q. Did anybody harass them?

A. No, these people were definitely not harassed by anybody.

Q. Were there any other civilians there harassed by anybody, to your knowledge?

A. I don't understand your question.

Q. Were there any other civilians, Croats, and were they harassed by anybody? Did you see anybody harass any Croat civilian?

A. No, definitely not then.

Q. So these people were taken immediately the following day in a bus to the territory?

A. Yes, that's right, to the territory held by Croats.

Q. You said that some two or three people were looting a store and that they were the only ones who could have come up with that kind of an idea. Do you know those two or three men who looted that store, since you say they were the only ones capable of that? That means you must have had some preconceived notions of these people; is that right?

A. Well, you are the one who mentioned these names.

Q. You mean the names out of the statement given to the police in Karlovac?

A. Yes.

Q. So these same people who killed Pero Krtan were the ones who looted the store?

A. Yes, they were the only ones capable of that.

Q. And the reason behind this was robbery or looting again; is that right? ¹¹⁶¹⁴

A. Yes.

Q. And how many people are we talking about? You said two or three.

A. Just a couple of them. A couple. Two or three.

Q. A couple.

A. Yes. Yes. A couple. And at that time, they were the only ones capable of that.

Q. So the only ones.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, did anybody report them to police?

A. It wasn't easy to report them. It wasn't easy for anyone to do that because they had weapons, and it was difficult to report them to anyone. They would have killed anyone. They would have killed me. They wouldn't even blink.

Q. So it was a group of two or three robbers, looters.

A. That's right.

Q. They were not JNA soldiers, were they? They were just people who you knew.

A. Yes. These were people who would not put themselves under anyone's command. They had weapons.

Q. Were they from your place and is that why you knew them so well?

A. Yes. They were from my town.

Q. And then you say that after Saborsko was taken, one could travel. There was no blockades anywhere throughout the entire territory. Is that right?

A. Yes. ¹¹⁶¹⁵

Q. All right. Well, let's go back to something else. I wanted to clarify Saborsko while it's still fresh in our mind so that there is no need to go back to that unless something else comes up. Can you please tell me, is it true that in your town where you lived in 1991, according to data that I have, there were some over 2.000 Serbs and only 64 Croats.

A. I think that there was a far greater number of Serbs and Croats.

Q. Well, tell me how many. This is the data that I have, and I would like to know what's correct.

A. I think that my town, together with surrounding villages, had some 4.000 people able to vote.

Q. But I'm referring now just to your town, not the entire municipality and surrounding villages.

A. Well, yes. If you mean the town alone, then, yes, it's not a large place, no.

Q. Well, is this figure that I gave you correct, that there were some 2.000 Serbs and 64 Croats?

A. That number would be too great for the town itself.

Q. Well, give us the figure. How many inhabitants?

A. Well, some 4.500 to 5.000 inhabitants altogether.

Q. And how many were Serbs and how many were Croats?

A. I think some 2 per cent were Croats, 2 or 3 per cent.

Q. So just 2 or 3 per cent.

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that the majority of people in the police station were Serbs, although there were Croats there as well, even though the ¹¹⁶¹⁶ percentage of Croats was only 2 or 3 per cent. But there was a portion that corresponded to the composition of the population.

A. I don't know what the reasons were for that type of composition.

Q. Since you are a protected witness, I will not mention the -- the place where you worked, the company where you worked, but you said that there in the company where you worked and when you were a supervisor, that 32 people were fired, were dismissed from work. You must know what company is involved, and you also must know that the production process ceased in that entire area.

Q. So you mean to say that everybody was dismissed?

A. Yes. They were sent -- a telegram came in, saying that they all had to take unpaid leave, and it was expected that it wasn't going to last long. And I was the only one who, according to the telegram, had to be on duty from 7.00 until 2.00 p.m.

Q. All right. And what nationality were those workers that had been dismissed?

A. Serbs.

Q. And they were dismissed for that very reason.

A. Yes, for that very reason.

Q. Tell me, please, since -- when those few Croats who were in the police station in your town left, did somebody else come? When you were asked this question, you said that some new locals came who filled up the number of the needed policemen.

A. Yes, they were locals.

Q. And they were there in charge of law and order in those ¹¹⁶¹⁷ settlements that were practically populated by Serbs.

A. Yes, one could say so.

Q. Was there still some 2 to 3 per cent of Croat inhabitants there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they leave that territory?

A. Yes. I know that actually one or two of people in the police were from Saborsko, and then later on it was impossible. I don't know if you understand this, but later on it was impossible for them to continue.

Q. So there were roadblocks on both sides.

A. Yes.

Q. On the Serb side, Serb forces controlled it; and on the Croat side, Croat forces; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did somebody force those Croats to leave that area or did they simply --

A. I think that they simply saw that --

Q. They had to leave under those circumstances?

A. Yes.

Q. In paragraph 3 on page 1 of your statement, you said that Serbs started getting concerned for their security after the referendum on the independence of Croatia was held; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You said during chief examination that Professor Raskovic wanted the Serb rights to be protected and respected in Croatia.

A. I heard that Professor Raskovic said that as long as Croatia ¹¹⁶¹⁸ respected Serb rights, that Serb people would respond in kind, and then at one point he said that he would use all available democratic means to enforce those rights, but he said, "If you're looking for a war leader, then I'm a wrong person," because he was not favouring the war option. At least, that's how I saw it.

Q. Yes, that's right. So he was right. All he wanted was to make sure that Serb people are treated equally in Croatia, equally with anyone else, and their rights were respected. He didn't want anything else.

A. Yes, that's right, he didn't want anything else.

Q. And you agreed with him, you thought that he was right; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You said that, otherwise, relations between Serbs and Croats were good in the area you lived but, however, they deteriorated quite fast; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Because when asked here, you said that the reasons for that were contained in the fact that HDZ sent bad messages to Serb people. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And -- and what did he say?

A. He said, and I read this in the paper, that he -- he addressed on Easter the population, and he said that the Serbs were a disturbing factor and as long as they were there, Croatia would not exist as a state, that Serbs need to be expelled, converted into Catholicism, and killed. ¹¹⁶¹⁹

Q. So you probably know that Ustashas had the same slogan during World War II: Kill, convert, and expel.

A. Yes.

Q. So the same thing was repeated now again.

A. Well, that's what I'm saying. This is the message that was sent and that could be heard from various gatherings.

Q. Can you tell us, who was Sime Djodan who sent this message?

A. He was an MP.

Q. And this was the message or the speech he gave in Croatian Assembly, parliament?

A. Yes.

Q. It was in various gatherings, and I saw this in the papers. I read this in the papers.

Q. You read it in Vecernji List, an evening daily in Zagreb?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know, were you informed that specifically for these -- because of these events, the Presidency of Yugoslavia then, in the beginning of October of 1991, declared that the country was in an immediate threat of war? Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you know something about the establishing of Croatian paramilitary in the form of Croatian National Guards, ZNG?

A. Yes, I saw that, and I was surprised by that when in the stadium Maksimir in Zagreb they were promoted.

Q. When did you see that? ¹¹⁶²⁰

A. I don't know whether it was in 1991, in the very beginning. I can't say.

Q. And who did ZNG, the National Guard Corps, consist of?

A. Well, I couldn't tell you.

Q. Did you see the creation of the National Guard as a threat directed at Serbs?

A. Yes. But all I'm saying is that the Serb people at that time lived in great fear. And as for politics, I was never interested in that. And I don't think that I would be able to give you a quality answer if this is what you're aiming at.

Q. Well, I'm not going to ask any political questions of you. You explained that there was fear. You gave an example of Sime Djodan.

A. Yes.

Q. You described about how the National Guard Corps was established. And I suppose that even though this is not an especially political issue, you knew that the National Guard Corps was an illegal armed formation because, normally, there should only be the army and the police, and that's what we had in Yugoslavia.

A. Yes.

Q. In these events that you're describing in Saborsko that was in November of 1991, that was taking place whilst the JNA existed in the entire territory of Yugoslavia. That was prior to the recognition of Croatian independence.

A. Yes. I think it was in November.

Q. And do you remember that the proclamation of Independent Croatia ¹¹⁶²¹ and establishment of National Guard Corps and all of these events - don't let me go back to Djodan and other representatives of theirs - that all of that was accompanied with a great number of Ustasha symbols and various other symbols dating from World War II?

A. Yes.

Q. During 1991 and before the November events, so before the November events described by you, were there any armed conflicts in Croatia between these paramilitary forces of Croatia, such as National Guard Corps, ZNG, on one side and Serb people on the other side?

A. Yes. There was that event in Plitvice lakes.

Q. What took place there?

A. There was a conflict there which broke out between Serbs and Croatian forces, and I think that was during Easter time. It was on the 1st of April. It was Catholic Easter.

Q. You mean Easter of 1991?

A. Yes. At least, that's what I think so.

Q. And how did this conflict break out?

A. Well, they were not allowed to go to Plitvice because allegedly Serb forces were in Plitvice. And they wanted -- or they couldn't pass any more on that road, and this is why the conflict took place. And we heard that there were casualties there.

Q. Do you remember how many people got killed then in Plitvice in that conflict?

A. As far as I know, one Croatian and one Serb soldier got killed. I don't know whether it was exactly there or -- ¹¹⁶²²

Q. Did you learn there about the events when, for example, Serb paramilitary -- Croat paramilitary formations, together with the MUP of Croatia, in the beginning of -- in November of 1991 attacked and destroyed 18 protected Serb villages in Papuk, Slunj, and neighbouring areas?

A. Yes, we heard about that.

Q. And is it true that prior to these events described on pages 2, 3, 4 of your statements -- of your statement - I'm not going to refer to them now but you know which ones I have in mind - so is it true that these formations such as ZNG and other paramilitary formations, that they blocked and attacked dozens of barracks of the JNA in the territory of Croatia, throughout Croatia? Do you know about that? They were blocked and attacked.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us something about that?

A. Well, that's something that we were able to see --

JUDGE MAY: I think we're getting a long way from the witness's evidence, a long way from what he can give evidence about realistically. Now, Mr. Milosevic, have you got very much more for this witness? It appears you've covered virtually everything.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I suppose that I have a right to continue examining him tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, but you don't have to take up all the time. Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got any questions for this witness?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have just a few questions. I will probably finish within a few minutes. ¹¹⁶²³

JUDGE MAY: Very well, tomorrow morning. Witness C-1220, could you be back, please, tomorrow morning, 9.00, to conclude your evidence. We will -- before we rise, we will hand in the exhibits which weren't, in the event, produced.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.