Milosevic Transcript 2002-10-22

¹²⁰⁷⁹

Tuesday, 22 October 2002

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. Witness C-060, yesterday we left off talking about the fact that you were a legalist while you were explaining an answer to some of my questions. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, when asked about the conduct of the Croatian police towards the Serbs, you said that they behaved inhumanely. Could you describe what you meant by that?

A. Well, they behaved contrary to their own rules of service and their own laws, and in relation to us, the detainees, we had different treatment, different from the other prisoners. When I said "inhumane," I meant that they curtailed some of our basic rights that detainees are accorded while investigations are under way.

Q. Did they abuse you physically? Did they beat you?

A. Not in the investigation process, during that.

Q. When did they beat you, then?

A. Well, when I was in the camp, before I was detained.

Q. How long did you spend in the camp before you were detained?

A. I spent four days there. The rest of the people spent longer. ¹²⁰⁸⁰

Q. Did they beat you throughout those four days?

A. No.

Q. Did they interrogate you while they were beating you or did they just beat you?

A. Well, I received several blows from the military investigators while they interrogated me.

Q. And do you know the name of the chief of police in Osijek, the Croatian chief of police? Kir-Reihl was his name. Does it ring a bell?

A. Yes.

Q. He was the chief of the Osijek Secretary of the Interior; right? And as far as I know, he wanted to have the rules prevail and be respected, and that agreements on a cease of hostilities should also be respected, the ones that had been reached between the local population, both Serbs and Croats. Now, do you know what happened to him?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Well, what happened to him?

A. He was killed in the Tenja settlement, near Osijek.

Q. Do you know who killed him?

A. Yes. He was killed by the members of the paramilitary units of Croatia, or the ZNG, the Croatian National Guard Corps. I don't know who they actually belonged to. But there was a lot of publicity about that in the media.

Q. Do you remember that immediately after he was killed, those same paramilitary units attacked Borovo Selo, and once again violated the agreement that had been reached about the cease of hostilities? ¹²⁰⁸¹

A. Well, I don't know whether it was these units that attacked, but I do know that the police forces attacked Borovo Selo.

Q. Very well. On page 5, paragraph 3 of your statement, you say that Ilija Sasic was the government representative of the RSK, the Republic of Srpska Krajina in Belgrade. Is that correct?

A. No, I did not state that. I didn't say that Ilija Sasic was representative of the government of Srpska Krajina, because he wasn't. He was a representative of the SAO for Western Slavonia in the Western Slavonia department.

Q. Well, he was representative of Western Slavonia in the department for Western Slavonia; is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that that man was never a representative of Western Slavonia but that it was Vladimir Simpraga, and he's also from Podravska Slatina? He was the representative.

A. Yes, Vladimir Simpraga was in that office, or bureau, too.

Q. In your statement, you go on to explain that - how shall I put this? - you were forced to put on a uniform making you member of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. Why did you not tell us about the fact that at the beginning of 1992, you were deputy commander of the operative zone of Territorial Defence, Colonel Vojinovic, you were his replacement. Did somebody force you to take up that position as well?

A. No. I was never Colonel Vojinovic's deputy. ¹²⁰⁸²

Q. So you say that you were not his deputy in the TO operative zone; right?

A. Yes, that's right, never.

Q. All right. Very well. Now, tell me: When were you involved for the first time within the formation of the armed forces of the FRY?

A. When I had finished my military service. That was the first time that I was engaged.

Q. All right. At the end of the 1970s, were you the deputy head of Territorial Defence for Podravska Slatina?

A. No, never. I was never deputy head of the Territorial Defence of Podravska Slatina.

Q. Apart from being in the army doing your military service, you were not in the Territorial Defence and were not involved in any assignment?

A. I was in the Territorial Defence, but not the assignment that you have just mentioned.

Q. When were you in the Territorial Defence?

A. From 1969 until 1971.

Q. After 1971, up until the war, you were no longer involved in the Territorial Defence anywhere?

A. I was member of the reserve force of a unit that was a reinforcement for the JNA.

Q. Was there any mention with respect to the matter you spoke about yesterday, when you said that you were taken to trial without any grounds for that and that you were relieved of your responsibilities because of a psychological disturbance that was observed? ¹²⁰⁸³

A. No, that's not correct.

Q. But were you examined by a neuropsychiatrist?

A. Yes.

Q. Why were you examined by a neuropsychiatrist, and when did this take place?

A. I was tested to see my reactions when imbuing alcohol.

Q. That means that you were prescribed compulsory psychiatric treatment; is that it?

A. No. No, Mr. Milosevic. You're asking me something about --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. What were you going to say?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask Mr. Milosevic to ask me questions that are related to this -- the subject-matter, physically, and psychologically, I am quite healthy, and I don't like his insinuations. They are playing up to the public and have nothing to do with the case in hand.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We're going to stop this line of questioning. It's personal, intrusive, and has no bearing on the case.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. After that, you were employed in a number of companies, as far as my information tells me, in Frigus, in Slavonska, from Podravska Slatina, then Univerzal, another firm, and then in the municipality of Podravska Slatina as a clerk in the economic department? ¹²⁰⁸⁴

MR. NICE: This is not appropriate material for open-session examination.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: The accused should know that. I'm sure he does.

JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't got any questions for private session, actually, Mr. May. Nothing to ask.

JUDGE MAY: Any personal questions into private session. Remember that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. I didn't understand that this was something that we should go into private session for.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, why did you change jobs, Mr. C-060, so often?

A. Because my profession is a specialised one, in the sphere of finance. I was head of the accounts department very frequently, and I was tested on several occasions when it came to the law on incomes policy and taxation, and that was applied. And in the local community, in my municipality, very often people tried to sidestep the law, and it was discredited and usually it was the head of the financial department that was held responsible and accountable, and I didn't want to allow myself to be in that position. And I did have problems because of that with my comrades. If you will allow me to say so. I say this without any cynicism, because that's how we addressed each other, as comrades. We would say comrade to one another. ¹²⁰⁸⁵

Q. You're talking about your work in [redacted] [redacted]?

A. Well, I didn't work anywhere else.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, why do you say that the Territorial Defence staff was responsible for these alleged crimes in Cetekovac?

A. Well, if I was at the head of that staff, I would have felt myself to be responsible. I couldn't see it in any other light.

Q. So if I understand you, it is the staff who was responsible for all the crimes and Veljko Dzakula who was the prime minister of SAO Western Slavonia at that time is not responsible. Am I reading you correctly?

A. Well, Veljko Dzakula was not prime minister of the SAO Western, the Slavonia government at the time.

Q. Well, what was he?

A. I didn't know him at the time. The authorities hadn't been established, the Assembly hadn't been established, et cetera, and you ought to know that.

Q. When was that?

A. The incident in Cetekovac took place at the beginning of September. The government and the Assembly were established at the end of October.

Q. All right. Now, when did you see Mr. Dzakula for the first time? When was the last time you saw him?

A. That's a private question. It has no bearing on the case. But I can't remember. I did see him, let's say, this summer perhaps. ¹²⁰⁸⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²⁰⁸⁷

Q. But at any rate, you say that the government wasn't functioning at that time and that you didn't have any kind of leadership there at that time.

A. In that respect, Mr. Milosevic, I have given very specific statements and observations made in my statement in that regard, and I said that the authorities, both civilian and military, were in the structures of the Territorial Defence, comprised therein.

Q. All right. Very well, let's dwell on that for a moment. You say that Veljko Vukelic at the time was head of the staff of Territorial Defence for Podravska Slatina and Western Slavonia; is that right?

A. No. What I claim is that he was at the head of the Main Staff of Western Slavonia. That's all.

Q. All right. Very well. Now, tell me in precise terms when Vukelic headed the Territorial Defence staff, in date terms.

A. Well, I can't give you the exact date, but it was in the summer, in August, that he was elected as staff commander for Western Slavonia, and in October perhaps he was replaced by somebody else, by some other people, and I think I state which those people were in my statement.

Q. All right. Now, do you happen to know, because I have some information here which differs rather, that Veljko Vukelic was never the commander of the TO staff, just the charge d'affaires of the staff commander, an acting staff commander from the 15th of September until the 15th of October, 1991.

A. Well, I heard that he had been appointed from my friends, who worked with him at that time, and later on, quite a bit later on, I heard ¹²⁰⁸⁸ about this, but I did hear it from informed sources.

Q. When did you hear about that?

A. Well, let's say in the course of 1992, or perhaps even at the end of 1991, when I met the people who had been working with him and who set up the staff together with him.

Q. All right. But in view of my facts that say that he was the acting chief from the 15th of September to the 15th of October, which makes it a one-month period, according to the information I have before me, this event in Cetekovac took place on the 10th of September; is that right?

A. No. The 4th of September.

Q. Right. The 4th of September, when the TO did not in fact have a commander at all.

A. Well, I cannot testify about that, because according to my information, the Main Staff of the TO of Western Slavonia was formed earlier on. But I don't have any precise information on that score.

Q. All right. On page 5, paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that on several occasions you were arrested by a group of men in black, led by a man called Stojan Gustin from Lozane who was in the Djuro Decak paramilitary unit; is that right?

A. Yes. His name was Stojan Gustin, and I only heard that they were members of his sort of private army, who abused me in Slatina, mistreated me in Slatina.

Q. As far as I understand it, this was a Croatian paramilitary group.

A. Well, it was some sort of paramilitary group, but it had no ¹²⁰⁸⁹ insignia or patches to show which group it actually was.

Q. All right. From your statement, I gather that you were no kind of Serb nationalist but that you advocated brotherhood unity of the Croatian and Serbian people. Why then did the Croats arrest you on several occasions?

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²⁰⁹⁰

[redacted]

Q. You claim that you did not agree with the appointment of Rajko Bojcic as commander of Territorial Defence in Ceralije, and that you expressed to Trbojevic your disagreement with this appointment; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please: What position did you hold at that time when you were able to freely express your disagreement, especially since you were mobilised by force?

A. Your Honours, all of these information can threaten my identity, so I ask that you take measures to protect it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go into private session and deal with all these matters.

We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²⁰⁹¹ Page 12091 - redacted - private session

¹²⁰⁹²

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have no wish to threaten safety of this witness. It's just that the issue of what is relevant and what is not relevant is quite a relative one, and I definitely will not mention anything that could possibly identify this witness in an open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. C-060, can you tell me, please: How long did Croatia stay ¹²⁰⁹³ within the SFRY?

A. Based on the generally accepted fact, it is believed that it stayed within the SFRY until it was recognised by the international community, which was sometime in February of 1992. However, in Croatia it is believed that the important date was the October of 1991, when Croatia passed a decision on its independence.

Q. All right. Well, does that mean, then, that up until that time, in the territory of Croatia, the laws of SFRY were in force?

A. Based on my belief, yes.

Q. Do you know that the Yugoslav People's Army, including the Territorial Defence, as part of that defence system of armed forces of SFRY, and their organisation, were regulated by federal law?

A. Yes, certainly.

Q. You say, on page 8, paragraph 3, that the Territorial Defence of Pozega, Orahovac and Slatina were not subordinated to the JNA. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, tell me, please, since I don't quite understand this, and I'm not being ironic right now: How come the Territorial Defence existed in the territory of Podravska Slatina municipality? You should have known this?

A. There was a special law in Territorial Defence in every republic and at the federal level. This is well known.

Q. All right, then. So the Territorial Defence of Slatina was not subordinated to the JNA, but based on what you say, the JNA coordinated ¹²⁰⁹⁴ supply of the Territorial Defence; is that what you're saying? Or do you think that that's how it was?

A. Yes. What I testified to is something that I knew, or something that I saw or something that I heard, but I clearly stated that, if that's the case.

Q. All right. Well, can you tell me this: Do you know how was this supply implemented? You said that the JNA supplied the Territorial Defence but did not have command over it.

A. I gave a number of examples, the ones that I knew, about how the 5th Corps supplied the Territorial Defence in Slatina territory. Out of the funds that were used to pay members of the Territorial Defence, they also supplied weapons, equipment, ammunition, and everything else that is needed in order to round up the equipment of the units, and it was quite clear, not only to me, who was a member of the staff, but also to others who were not members.

Q. All right. That's what I would like to clear up. Do you know that a large number of members of Territorial Defence - and I don't mean only in Slatina or only in Croatia, because, as far as I know, this applied to entire territory of Yugoslavia - that these people were issued with uniforms and military equipment in the place where they resided, and that was a long time before 1990? This was the system of the Territorial Defence. They were issued certain equipment, uniforms, and so on. Do you know about this or not?

A. Yes, I do. I was a member of that.

Q. So you were issued with a uniform as well as a reservist or as a ¹²⁰⁹⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²⁰⁹⁶ member of the Territorial Defence; isn't that right?

A. Yes, while I was in the reserve forces.

Q. And up until what time did this apply?

A. Until 1986.

Q. So this was a general practice at that time?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So they didn't just start supplying them in 1990, 1991, the army didn't start supplying them at that time, but rather, the people all had equipment at home; isn't that right?

A. Yes, and those who didn't have it were supposed to be issued with it.

Q. So did they receive all this from the JNA or from some depots of Territorial Defence in their locality where Territorial Defence existed?

A. In my statement, I said that part of the equipment was received from the depots of Territorial Defence as much as available. Since there was a depot in Slatina, the Serbs didn't have it, and they obviously needed to procure it from somewhere.

Q. All right. But in view of this, you were part of this system. So is it logical, and do you know that every Croat also had this equipment and the uniform, every Croat that was a member of the Territorial Defence reserve forces? Isn't that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, tell me, please: Why is it that after these multiparty elections and after the power was taken over by the HDZ there were no Croats among the TO or reserve forces of the JNA? ¹²⁰⁹⁷

A. Because they believed the JNA to be an occupation force, occupying army, at least those were the slogans that they used.

Q. All right. And why did you refuse to put on a uniform of the ZNG in 1991? You probably could have done this.

A. I never accepted wearing any uniform, if I had an opportunity to declare my wishes. The only uniform I wore was the one of the JNA, and I told you that was because I was a legalist.

Q. In 1991, the ZNG existed there in the territory of Croatia, where federal laws of SFRY were still in force. Did this ZNG then represent a paramilitary formation?

A. Within the interpretation of the federal legislation, yes, but Croats believed that they had to defend their right to this. I, as a legalist, obviously cannot accept this, because I did not believe this to be the actual situation, and I also believe the ZNG to be a paramilitary formation.

Q. All right.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm about to mention somebody's name, so perhaps we should go into private session so that I'm not later on accused for threatening the identity of this witness. So could we please go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²⁰⁹⁸ Pages 12098-12103 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁰⁴

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, Mr. C-060: As far as I understand it, you are living in Croatia today.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please: Is it by chance that you, as a former member of the TO, are saying about the alleged crimes of that same TO is identical to what was said about the event by the former chief of police from Podravska Slatina, Dzuro Matovina, who testified here? You had occasion to see him?

JUDGE MAY: No. I'm not going to allow this question. First of all, I suspect we should be in a private session if you're going on with this line of questioning, in any event. Secondly, it's not for him to comment on some other evidence which has been given here. ¹²¹⁰⁵ We'll go into private session to deal with the matter.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹⁰⁶

[redacted]

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Which document are you referring to?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The one with the number 59, attachment 59. He can look at it. The witness can have a look at it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Be kind enough and tell me on what grounds are you making the conclusion that this is an authentic document, even though you've never seen him, as you said yourself. Did I understand what you said correctly, you never saw this document?

A. I did not.

Q. But you still claim that it could be authentic?

A. I allow for the possibility that it could be, but I'm not claiming ¹²¹⁰⁷ that it is.

Q. Do you see any other elements on this document that appear to you to be illogical? Do you see, for instance, that the heading of the document, it says "Volunteers from Serbia, a special unit," and then, in the columns, you have last name, father's name, first name, date and place of birth, place of residence, occupation, qualifications, and everything, all that is written in Latin script and then all the names in Cyrillic script, and so on and so forth. Because you said that this was a document compiled in the way in which documents were compiled, was that the customary form for the heading to be written out by hand? Is it logical for you, because it is handwritten, for a part to be written in Cyrillic and another part in Latin script?

A. There is something that is very well known for the people living in my part of the country, and that is how one can write in Cyrillic script, and what that script looks like when somebody is trying to imitate it. That is why I thought and allow for the possibility, as there are two different handwritings, I write both Cyrillic and Latin scripts well, but I know how the people around me do it. And it is quite possible, though I'm not claiming that - that's what I said - but I do allow for the possibility that this could be an original document. I'm not emphatically claiming that, as you are trying to intimate.

Q. That is what I wanted to hear. You're not claiming that you know that it is an authentic document, nor do you think that it is certainly an authentic document; you're just allowing for the possibility that it might be. ¹²¹⁰⁸

A. Yes.

Q. But not with a high degree of probability, as far as I gather. Is that right?

A. Yes. I didn't say what degree of probability there was in my judgement, but certain elements could allow both possibilities.

Q. Very well. How do you explain that on top it says "Special unit" in the heading and, and then we can see that these are all civilians, employed, unemployed, private entrepreneurs, worker, worker, entrepreneur, locksmith, mechanic, welder, et cetera? From the contents, don't you think it is rather illogical for somebody to have written this out in this way in Latin script, this heading, "Special unit," consisting of entrepreneurs, manual workers, welders and locksmiths?

A. In improvised conditions, all kinds of things were done, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Very well. Tell me, with what degree of certainty could you say that this is a forgery or an authentic document?

A. I couldn't give you any degree of probability. I've given you various elements. I said that it was possible. It is not customary in this way, and few people could write Cyrillic in this kind of handwriting.

Q. Have you noticed that this was not a form that anyone could obtain, but rather, anyone could have drawn it with a ruler? It's not a printed form; it's a form made out in handwriting. Let's not dwell on this, Mr. C-060.

Do you know -- please give me a precise answer. Do you know who committed the crime that you mention in Vocin? Do you know who were the ¹²¹⁰⁹ perpetrators?

A. I do not.

[redacted]

A. I'm asking Your Honours: Is this in private session, please?

JUDGE MAY: No. Go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹¹⁰ Pages 12110 - 12122 - redacted - private session ¹²¹²³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. C-060. You spoke about some crimes in Western Slavonia. You spoke about the time when the SFRY still existed, as did JNA. What has this got to do with Serbia and me, as the president of Serbia? You testified here about that in order to support the indictment against me and what Serbia allegedly did regarding that. What has Serbia done in Western Slavonia?

A. I'm testifying here about the facts, events, and people, as I know them and remember them from that period of time. And as to what that has got to do with you, these facts, these names, and these events will testify to that. And I repeat once again: Mr. Milosevic, I'm not accusing here anybody. That is not my role here. I'm simply testifying about things I know.

Q. All right. Other than the name I mentioned in private session, you spoke about an arson in a house, for which you say was most probably set on fire by some three people that you met half an hour prior to that, and then you describe some other violent event that took place at that ¹²¹²⁴ time. So does this time coincide with the time when the population and Territorial Defence, under pressure of Croatian forces, left that territory?

A. Yes.

Q. Yesterday you said that you had to explain something regarding that, and then you were told that you shouldn't explain anything but simply continue. So now please be kind enough to explain that.

A. I can't remember now what was that all about, but I suppose it had to do with the circumstances that prompted the people to leave. I guess that's something that I wanted to describe then.

Q. All right. I took it that you explained the circumstances under which the people left Western Slavonia and that it had to do with rumours that circulated about the preparations taken by Croatian forces to attack that area, not because of the attack. So they didn't leave because of the attack. Was that the gist of your explanation of the reasons why the people left that area together with the Territorial Defence, allegedly?

A. No. The matter is much more complex. Psychosis and fear are much stronger than any enemy, and those who did not experience this cannot testify about this, regardless of the instructions they received to this effect. The situation then was such that not much was needed to set those people in motion. I wasn't there on that day, and I can't tell you which spark set this in motion, but I can tell you about what I heard. One village was set in motion, and then the others followed suit.

Q. All right. So if there was panic and rumours, and if this is why people were set in motion, and not because of the attack, then who ¹²¹²⁵ destroyed and set on fire all of those Serbian villages in Western Slavonia? Was it the rumours that did it or was it Croatian paramilitary forces and police?

A. Those villages around Vocin remained intact except for one part that was destroyed by members of the Territorial Defence in Vocin, and the rest remained intact. And it was definitely not destroyed by Serbs.

Q. You said it wasn't destroyed by Serbs?

A. Yes, it wasn't destroyed and torched by Serbs.

Q. Then who did it?

A. The Croatian state. I can't say anything else, because the state of Croatia was there in that territory at that time.

Q. All right. If you say that those Serb villages were torched by the Croatian state, which are undisputed facts, that they were torched by Croatian police and its formations, is it clear, then, that those Serbs who fled did not flee because of rumours but because of the attack that was perpetrated in that area, in the area of Western Slavonia? Is that so or isn't it, Mr. C-060?

A. At the time when Serbs were retreating from the Vocin area, there was no such attack that would represent that type of danger, because there were no wounded or people that were killed there. It wasn't the situation, based on what I heard from the people who survived that. You are now asking me this in the context of the event or in the context of the crimes that were committed in Vocin. I testified about what I know based on my conversations with people who were there, who heard it or saw it personally or heard this from somebody. ¹²¹²⁶

Q. All right. I would remind you, and if I'm not right about this, you can correct me. I asked you half an hour ago about whether you knew who committed those crimes in Vocin, and you said you didn't know.

A. I wasn't there. I didn't see that. But I was with those people. I know those people. And finally, I'm still living with those people now. And regardless of the passage of time, people heard there in their place about who did this and they recognised those people, regardless of their masks.

Q. All right. You accused here people called Simic and Ivanovic.

A. No, that's not right. I didn't accuse anybody.

Q. You mentioned these people and you explained that they were recognised by some locals even though they wore masks. So how could they recognise them if they wore masks?

A. Well, these questions, Your Honours, have to do with answers that could reveal my identity.

Q. I don't know if there is a single question that doesn't have to do with your identity. You spoke about the 13th of December, 1991, when 22 villages, based on your testimony -- or rather, the residents of those villages retreated, in panic. They fled, together with the Territorial Defence, before these attacks that you qualified as acts committed by Croatian state, those villages destroyed and so on. So is it possible that in this huge state of commotion and chaos, in view of panic that existed in those 22 villages, is it possible to know who committed what crimes, who shot at whom and who was responsible for murdering somebody in that territory and along that road on which the population fled? ¹²¹²⁷

A. Your Honours, are we in private session?

JUDGE MAY: No. We'll go into private session and then we'll adjourn. Yes, we'll go into private session and then we'll adjourn

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹²⁸ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

--- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹²⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²¹³⁰

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So in these events that you described, the crimes that you described and the retreat of inhabitants of 22 villages who felt threatened by the attack of Croatian forces and so on, did I understand you well that there was in fact no JNA presence in that area?

A. During my testimony, I never said that there was JNA there.

Q. All right. It's very important to make sure that this is clear. You mentioned some involvement of the Serbian Radical Party, and then later in your explanations you also said that the Serbian Radical Party was established, as you said, in Okucani, only as late as in 1992. Is that right or not?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Then I suppose that it couldn't have been involved -- particularly involved prior to being established in that area.

A. I spoke about seeing representatives of that party in Western ¹²¹³¹ Slavonia.

Q. Yes, but based on what I saw in documents, the Serbian Radical Party claimed that it supplied volunteers only for the JNA and the army of Republika Srpska; therefore, that it did not have any paramilitary formations of its own.

A. I had an opportunity, and I mentioned this in my testimony, to see a document which had spoke about the fact that a group of volunteers, 17 of them, in fact, were mobilised to that effect and came to Western Slavonia.

Q. All right. When you were questioned about those 17 volunteers, you replied that you did not know who led them. And then you were asked whether that was somebody called Novacic, and you replied that that name sounded familiar, it reminded you of somebody. So does this mean that these 17 volunteers, for whom you say were volunteers of the SRS, were in fact led by somebody called Novacic?

A. I testified, and I remain by what I said previously, that it is possible that that man was their leader, or rather, that the man that I saw as their leader could be called Novacic. Yes, that name rings a bell. I heard that name. But as to whether this is the name of that man I can't claim that.

Q. All right. I heard your name many times, but I don't know whether it referred to you. I also heard your name mentioned a number -- many times, but it wasn't you. So how can you in fact claim that these people were a paramilitary unit of the Serbian Radical Party when this party claims that it did not have any paramilitary formations? ¹²¹³²

A. I will repeat and say that I was present when they arrived. I wasn't supposed to be informed of this; however, my commander asked for this, for me to be there. I guess he wanted to show off a little bit. And when I asked who were these people and where they came from, he produced a document, a certificate that was issued in Belgrade, in the office for recruitment and so on - I can't recall all of the details now - but that document confirmed, with full certainty, the identity of these people.

Q. Very well. You were asked here whether you saw a paramilitary group led by Franko Simatovic. You said that you had not ever seen a paramilitary group, nor anything that could link a group to Simatovic.

A. Yes. I had never heard of that name, and I can't say anything about it. I didn't see it and I didn't hear it. That's what I said.

Q. That's why I'm asking you, because this first and last name is linked to one of the members of the security service of Serbia, and therefore an effort was made here to link their activity with the activities in Western Slavonia. So you assume that, in view of the fact that you were in the area, that it is not a large area, that if anything like that existed over there, I assume you should have known about it.

A. Possibly, but I must say that there were quite a number of people in the Main Staff of Western Slavonia that I had never heard of. They were remote, in a remote location.

Q. I gathered from the testimony here, before you there was another protected witness, and you know him well, so I won't mention his name anyway, and mention was made in many that testimony of people primarily ¹²¹³³ who were born in the area, regardless of whether they lived there during the relevant events or not, that they had come to assist in the defence of the population. So mostly they were people, natives of the area. Is that your impression or not?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. You mentioned in a part - you pointed it out on the map - of a unit of the Banja Luka Corps. This was, if I'm not mistaken, at a time while the JNA was still functioning in that area, and it was also the area of responsibility of the Banja Luka Corps, was it not?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Namely, is it true that various corps or the distribution of zones of responsibility of military units in the SFRY did not coincide with any republic borders? So when it's called the Banja Luka Corps, it doesn't mean that it has to be limited to the borders of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it has its own territory according to the military structure, and not to coincide with the administrative division of Yugoslavia. Is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. You were asked here about Jovo Vezmir, and you said he was there briefly and that after that he went to Serbia. Do you know that in Serbia at the time, there were already about 600.000 refugees from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, or rather, in 1991, there were much fewer, but later on the number went up to 1 million refugees?

A. I do know that refugees went to Serbia. I know that. But how many, what the numbers are, I don't know. But there were quite a large ¹²¹³⁴ number from my area as well.

Q. You said, in connection with certain events, that you had warned a certain Bojcic, cautioned him, that you would report him to the military authorities in Banja Luka. What was he doing that prompted you to make such a warning, to put it mildly, that you would report him to the military authorities in Banja Luka? And at the same time, let me ask you, to save time: Did you report him to the military authorities and was anything done in that connection?

A. I reported him, but whether anything was done, I don't know.

[redacted]

A. These questions, Mr. Milosevic, enter into the sphere of my integrity.

Q. Very well. I won't ask you those questions, then, because we keep going into private session. You said that his office, after the territory was abandoned, was situated in the building of the command of a brigade belonging to the Banja Luka Corps. He was virtually a refugee, and he set up his office in a military building, not in the corps headquarters, but one that was closest to him. Is that right?

A. The answer is the one I gave in my statement.

Q. Is it true, Mr. C-060, that he neither had, nor could have had, any kind of authority with respect to any JNA command, even at the lowest level, and that he may have been given hospitality in a certain building to have his office there as the premises of the Assembly of which he was ¹²¹³⁵ the president?

A. Probably.

Q. So is it true that he could not have had any competence or authority over any JNA unit?

A. It would have been strange if he had had any authority, because there was a military hierarchy and a separate civilian hierarchy.

Q. Of course. That is why I wanted to make this quite clear, because here the fact that some events coincide seems to be used as an illustration of links between the JNA and other institutions.

A. Yes, but competence is one thing and links are another thing.

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹³⁶

[redacted]

Q. Tell us what event you're referring to.

A. I wouldn't like to do that in open session.

Q. Not to go into private session again, do you assume that if anything like that happened, as you're claiming, in that area, and he was the Minister of Police, do you know with certainty that he did not undertake any measures against the perpetrators of this act you are referring to, or are you claiming that he didn't want to take any steps?

A. I don't know anything about his activities in that connection, and I didn't testify about that.

Q. So you cannot claim that he didn't do anything as the Minister of Police against the perpetrators of a crime, if such a crime happened?

A. I didn't claim that, and I do not claim that. But I do know that in some cases, such things were not operationalised while I was there.

Q. You mean in Western Slavonia?

A. Yes, I mean in Western Slavonia.

Q. You know that Martic was not in Western Slavonia?

A. He was in the Republic of Srpska Krajina. That is quite some distance away for him to know about it. But that did not prevent him from arresting me.

Q. I'm not entering into your internal disputes and relationships between the leadership that you yourself elected and yourself. I really don't want to go into that. ¹²¹³⁷ You said that a certain Zarkovic threatened Dzakula and tried to persuade some people to kill him even. How did you come to know that, and did anything happen to Dzakula? Did anyone try to assassinate him?

A. I was present in the area, and I heard this from people who were serving under the command of Mr. Zarkovic. It so happens that these people are from my area, and I heard this from them. Now, whether they said this lightheartedly or laconically, I don't know, but that is what they said, without any doubt.

Q. But from what you are saying, they had no intention of doing anything against Mr. Dzakula; is that so?

A. If one can believe what the people said, and I believed what they said and I acted accordingly. I begged, threatened, tried to influence, and so on.

Q. So you're saying that you did everything you could to explain that one should not commit an act of violence against anyone; is that what you're trying to say?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is now up. Do you want to ask another question or two?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let me then reduce it to two questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, you said, towards the end of your examination yesterday, that Radovan Karadzic was the mentor of Hadzic. How do you know that? ¹²¹³⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²¹³⁹

A. You will allow me to have my convictions about people I lived with and on whom my destiny depended. So allow me to have that right, to have a position about that.

Q. Yes. You have a definite position about it. And then you went on to say that the Serbian Democratic Party of Krajina and the Serbian Democratic Party of Republika Srpska joined to form the Serbian Democratic Party of Serbian lands. Is that what you said?

A. But you know that too.

Q. Of course I do. But do you remember well that it was precisely that Serbian Democratic Party of Serbian lands that was in opposition in Serbia and that it participated in the elections in Serbia as an opposition party?

A. I know that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've asked the two questions you allowed me to do, Mr. May. Thank you very much.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.

MR. NICE: A few matters arising, I think most of them in private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹⁴⁰ Page 12140 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁴¹ Page 12141 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁴² Page 12142 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁴³ Page 12143 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁴⁴

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness C-060, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, while the witness is going, there are one or two administrative matters, it may be, we can deal with, when you've rearranged your -- ¹²¹⁴⁵

MR. NICE: I'm ready.

JUDGE MAY: The first is the next witness is C-020. I may have recollected this wrong. I thought you said he was here for a limited time. Is that right?

MR. NICE: That's right. He -- well, we must get him done by tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. In that case, we will have to clearly have - allow time for cross-examination, and would you have that in mind, in general terms, there will be a division of the time.

MR. NICE: I will have that in mind.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just one moment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't understand. This next one seems to be a witness that has been introduced on the list subsequently. According to my information, he's an ordinary criminal, a murderer, a looter. How can you --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all general comment. You can cross-examine him in due course about these matters. The explanation of how he has been brought forward in the list has been given, and there has been notification of it. Just two other matters. He's being fetched, I take it. Yes. Two matters I want to raise. First of all, Witness C-036 and the application in relation to Rule 92 bis, we should hear argument on that, possibly at the end of today would be a convenient time to hear argument about it. ¹²¹⁴⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²¹⁴⁷

MR. KAY: We were actually preparing a paper on that, having only recently got it, which I was hoping to finish off this afternoon.

JUDGE MAY: Would you -- very well. If you would finish it this afternoon. Can you let us have a copy? It may be through the usual channels rather than filing it. File it, of course, but also let us have a copy so we can have it tonight. Because we need to resolve the matter tomorrow, if at all possible.

MR. KAY: Absolutely. It won't be a along paper, but it's probably of benefit to the Court to have it in paper form.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. While you're on your feet, Mr. Kay, we've been handed a document which is called "Croatia, a document." It seems to be lines of defence, but it's rather equivocal as to what it is.

MR. KAY: The Trial Chamber mentioned that the Kosovo document that was filed was helpful, and it's in similar form to that. It was a strategy document. I can't say that I did the title of it, so what it's been called is slightly different from what I had written in London. But that was meant to be a helpful aid to the Court in relation to defence issues.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. NICE: May the witness come in, in those circumstances.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have the witness, please.

MR. NICE: As Your Honour will know from the explanation I gave yesterday, it will be our application to move into private session at a comparatively early stage in this witness's evidence, and then for a ¹²¹⁴⁸ significant part of it to be in private session, for fear of his identification otherwise being known, identity otherwise being known.

[The witness entered court]

MR. NICE: Page 23 of the atlas may be helpful, Exhibit 336.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-020

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. You will be known in these proceedings as "C-020." Would you be good enough, please, to look at a peace of paper that's going to be shown to you, and just tell us, please, by the answer yes or no, if the details on this piece of paper before you are correct.

A. Yes, they are correct.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 346, under seal, confidential.

MR. NICE: May we have a couple of minutes of private session before going into open session?

THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹⁴⁹

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. NICE:

Q. C-020, did you find yourself drafted and deployed into the Borovo Selo Territorial Defence unit?

A. After I had completed the JNA, yes.

Q. The word -- or the title "Borovo Selo," is that for our purposes the same place as marked as Borovo on the map?

MR. NICE: Perhaps the witness could have a version of the atlas open at page 23 and on view for those looking at -- perhaps it could go on the overhead projector, please.

A. Yes.

MR. NICE: Place it on the overhead projector. Thank you. Perfect.

Q. First a few things about Borovo Selo and the regime there. Was there a prison at Borovo Selo; if so, did you go there, see the prisoners, ¹²¹⁵⁰ and what was their condition? And what period are we talking about, just to be precise?

A. The prison existed between September, perhaps, until October, that period of time, 1991.

Q. Did you visit it; if so, what condition did you see the prisoners to be in?

A. Well, it wasn't actually a visit, because the prison was in a compound where the kitchen was and all the other facilities, so I saw the prison like anybody else who could see it while being on the premises there.

Q. The condition of the prisoners?

A. The prisoners had all been beaten up.

Q. Your Territorial Defence unit, did you learn how it had been equipped and armed?

A. In the first stage, we didn't have any uniforms and you wore what you had at home. Some people had uniforms which they had made themselves, and the weapons differed, the types of weapons differed.

Q. After that first stage, did further supplies arrive; if so, where from?

A. After the first stage, we -- most of us had automatic weapons, automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles, which were considered to be more modern than the type of weapons we had during the first stage.

Q. Where did they come from? Who provided them?

A. The weapons came to us mostly from Serbia. Who from, I really can't say. I think they were from the stockpiles that the Territorial ¹²¹⁵¹ Defence had, or the JNA.

Q. And physically, how did they reach you? Did they come across the river?

A. The equipment was taken across the Danube in boats. That was the only passage from Borovo Selo to Serbia.

Q. Did you hear, and if so, where from, who it was brought the weapons across the Danube?

A. Rumours had it that we were receiving the weapons from the special police in Novi Sad and the state security in Serbia.

Q. Had you, in April 1991, when still in the JNA but on leave, heard speeches given at the local community centre building in Borovo?

A. I was present during a speech like that.

Q. Who did you hear speaking?

A. At the time, Milan Paroski came, and so did Mirko Jovovic. They were lower-level politicians in Serbia, weren't too well known. And Vojislav Seselj did come at one point. He came to Baranja.

Q. Did you get yourself involved in the security arrangements for those meetings or rallies?

A. I joined the security for the very day the rally took place.

MR. NICE: Paragraph 5, page 3.

Q. Starting in about August of 1991, did you become aware of volunteers in your town or village?

A. Yes, there were people who came in from outside.

Q. Identify them if you can, either by their group or by their appearance, or both. ¹²¹⁵²

A. Most of them were people who were from around Vukovar. The Serbs who had left the villages where the local population was Croatian, and there were about 20 people, a group of about 20-odd people that belonged to a group by Mirko Jovic, and they were led by Ostojic, a man called Jovo Ostojic, from Prigrevica.

Q. Was there another unit connected with Nova Pazova?

A. No. Mostly they were the locals from Nova Pazova, but they were led by Jovo Ostojic, from Prigrevica, and they belonged to the Mirko Jovic group.

Q. Very well. Symbols used by these volunteers?

A. At that time they didn't have any uniforms. They wore what we wore, what they found. So they had a sort of flag with White Eagles on it, not on their uniforms but on the clothes they were wearing.

Q. Were there JNA units present in Borovo Selo in the summer or late summer of 1991?

A. Which period do you have in mind?

Q. Do you remember the fall of the town or village of Dalj?

A. After the fall of Dalj, yes.

Q. And that's the period of time. What JNA units, if any, were you aware of then?

A. The Pancevo unit that forced the bridge at Erdut, and then there were others along the Dalj-Erdut road.

Q. We've now dealt, then, with volunteer groups and with Territorial Defence, of which you were able to help us, and also the JNA. What was the chain of command? Who was subordinated to who, in your judgement and ¹²¹⁵³ experience?

A. Which period do you have in mind again?

Q. Again after the fall of Dalj?

A. JNA, or rather the offices of the JNA, under them was the Territorial Defence and then the other groups and units.

Q. Thank you. In this same period of time after the fall of Dalj, what purpose did the JNA units and their officers appear to be serving: Protection of Croats and Serbs, one from the other, or something else?

A. After the fall of Dalj, there was a consolidated action together with the JNA. That means they were on our side.

Q. Thank you.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, we come to page 4, paragraph 7. With the Court's leave, this is a topic, and it's a substantial topic, that we would ask to be dealt with in private session. And if the Court grants private session, I think it would be safe to say that this would take us until the normal time for rising for the midday adjournment, or the lunch adjournment, in any event.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²¹⁵⁴ Pages 12154-12183 - redacted - private session

¹²¹⁸⁴

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

MR. NICE:

Q. Witness C-020, in Ozren, and we can see this on page 40, I think, or 28 --

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. NICE:

Q. While in Ozren, did you learn of training that one group had received from the Red Berets?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was identified as doing this training, and which group was getting it from the Red Berets?

THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not switched on.

A. The specification of the theatre of war in Bosnia, as well as in our area, that small combat groups conducted main operations. This was reconnoitring, reconnaissance, and breakthroughs of certain enemy lines. And the same applied to Ozren. There were these groups. There were two groups, two elite groups, and a platoon of military police. And they were trained by the Red Berets and given some of their equipment. They were ¹²¹⁸⁵ better equipped than the local population. I joined one of those groups.

MR. NICE:

Q. In due course, did you get injured in September 1992 and taken to Doboj hospital?

A. Yes.

Q. Released from -- discharged from hospital, where did you go?

A. Back home to Borovo Selo.

Q. In January 1993, did you learn of -- or did you come to be involved with Arkan again?

A. With Arkan, after I returned, no. I was sent back to Erdut.

Q. If you were sent to Erdut, did you learn of Arkan's forming a particular unit?

A. That was after Maslenica fell in Knin Krajina. His unit was engaged to go to that theatre of war, and I joined.

Q. Very well. The details of how you joined, did you find yourself at Arkan's unit's gate when he came by in a jeep?

A. When I got there, the vehicles were ready to leave. I came at the last minute. And he was in the centre, right by his own car. He sent a soldier to me, and we went to Benkovac, to the village.

Q. Yes. And who did you travel with?

A. Besides him, there were several other people in the car. I think they were all officers. I can't say whether there were five of us or four of us plus him.

Q. When you got to Knin, did Arkan go to a meeting?

A. Yes, of course. He went to the meeting in the barracks to see ¹²¹⁸⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²¹⁸⁷ what operations would be in future and where we would be put up.

Q. What was said about anybody, any politician who was present at that meeting?

A. The stories that went round among the officers later on, the president of our state at that time was present, Milan Martic.

Q. Did you stay active on this particular battlefield until late March of 1993?

A. Yes.

Q. Operating in various locations that are listed in the summary. The structure of the unit in the Knin battlefield, Arkan in charge. Who else was at the top of the command chain?

A. Every officer had an officer under him, and several groups and units. So platoons, groups, reconnaissance groups, sabotage units, et cetera. So after Arkan, there was Legija. After Legija, a series of high-ranking officers.

Q. Legija's full name was --?

A. Milorad Ulemek.

MR. NICE: I needn't trouble the Chamber at the moment with the details of the other names, I don't think.

Q. Your unit, did it also collaborate with a Bosnian special unit? If so, what was the name of that unit and by whom was it led?

A. We collaborated with the Wolves from Manjaca. It was indirect cooperation and they were led by Veljko Milankovic. And they operated in the same direction as us, so in order to cover the territory, to cover our flanks, whatever, we had indirect collaboration. ¹²¹⁸⁸

Q. Were Arkan and Milankovic equals or apparent equals?

A. I don't understand. To what objective, what goal, in what sense?

Q. You described these two units working together in the cooperative, indirect cooperative way you've spoken of. Were they themselves subordinated to some other person or to some other body?

A. Well, every operation that took place there was done in conjunction with the officers of the army of Srpska Krajina, and we would be given our assignments from them. I don't know who gave Arkan his assignments, but Arkan was in command of our unit and our officers. Veljko's unit was commanded by Veljko and his officers. And the operation was received from the headquarters and staff of Srpska Krajina, but who there issued the orders, I really don't know.

Q. Do you know whether there was a single person, and if so, of what rank, who was instructing both of these units, commanding both of these units?

A. The rank was that of general. Now, what general, I don't know, but I think it was General Mile Mrksic and General Novakovic who were in command, but the rank was that of general.

Q. In March of 1993, I think you had some difficulties with a wound you had. And then your unit returned to Erdut and a special unit was then formed. What was the name of that special unit?

A. I have a correction to make to what you said. I returned two months before that, before my unit. My unit stayed on for a further two months down there.

Q. Thank you. The special unit, what was its name and when ¹²¹⁸⁹ approximately was it formed?

A. It was formed not long after we returned from the Benkovac battlefield, and it was known as the Super Tigers, Super Tigrovi.

Q. Who was the commander of the Super Tigers?

A. Legija was.

Q. The commander subordinate to him was called what, or was named what?

A. Veliki Rambo, big Rambo.

Q. His full name was --?

A. Bujosevic Nenad.

Q. For how long did the Super Tigers train?

A. The training lasted until the centre was closed down.

Q. Did they in the course of training go out on operations?

A. At that time, there were no operations; but if there were, yes, they were conducted.

Q. Tell us about their clothing and appearance.

A. Their equipment was like the equipment of any elite unit in the world. Most of our equipment was a copy of the foreign legion equipment and NATO uniforms. The weapons were automatic rifles, exclusively with a wooden butt, and we painted them black. And the combat sets, we had the flak jackets. And it was all first-class equipment, state of the art, like any other elite unit in the world is issued.

Q. What berets were worn, what colour, and did the colour change at any time?

A. We had a number of berets. The young members who were ¹²¹⁹⁰ recruited -- do you mean the Super Tigers unit or all of us?

Q. Yes. Super Tigers.

A. Super Tigers had black berets, black caps, like baseball caps, something like that, and woolen caps as well, combat ones.

Q. Did the colour of the caps change at some stage?

A. While the Super Tigers existed and the centre was in operation, no, they didn't.

Q. Can you help at all with anybody wearing red berets at about this time, and if so, who?

A. The Red Berets were worn by the unit that we referred to as Red Berets, and they weren't stationed in our area at that time.

Q. Very well. What happened to the Super Tigers? Were they disbanded later that year or at the end of that year?

A. The entire centre of the Serbian national guard was disbanded. Some people were called to Belgrade. Whoever wanted to could go to Belgrade to work. I'm referring to the officers, high-ranking and lower-ranking. And they could also work in the field of security, to provide security details for important personages. The people who were from Bosnia were sent home, and the barracks were completely disbanded.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, there's an exhibit which comes in a redacted and unredacted form. The fully redacted version may go on the overhead projector.

JUDGE MAY: Is this a new exhibit or --

MR. NICE: No. It's tab 4 --

JUDGE MAY: Tab 4. ¹²¹⁹¹

MR. NICE: Of Exhibit 347. If you would be good enough to place the original version on the overhead projector first so that it can be seen and then show it to the witness. The document with all the identifying material removed. If that can now be handed to the witness, the English version placed on the overhead projector.

Q. C-020, is this a document -- you've seen the original with the identifying features included, but it's signed by Milorad [Realtime transcript read in error "Mihajlo"] Ulemek on the 21st of February, 1994, being a certificate in respect of yourself, saying that you served the military post of Erdut on the Serbian -- of the Serbian army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina from a date until the end of December, participating in the war at the Benkovac battlefield. Is that a certificate that was issued to you?

A. Yes, that is the certificate that I asked to be given, because I needed to get some documents and I needed a certificate of that kind. And if the signature is that of Milorad Ulemek and not Mihajlo Ulemek, as you said.

Q. I'm sorry if I did say Mihajlo. It's my mistake entirely. Very well. You subsequently went to work for a private business. We won't give the detail of that, for obvious reasons. Until in mid-August 1994 you were called for in order to report to Belgrade. Is that correct?

A. It wasn't an order. It was an invitation. I didn't have to accept if I didn't want to. So it was an invitation to go to work again and to go to the battlefield, the theatre of war again.

Q. I think it will probably save time if we do this by your giving ¹²¹⁹² the account yourself, and we'll put the other map, the general map, the Times atlas map on the overhead projector. Thank you very much. Exhibit 326, tab 1. Now, I know that this map is of a scale that's not entirely easy to use, but I think it's probably better to use a single plan, Your Honour, a single map, and to get the overall geography from the witness. C-020, can you tell us, please, when you responded to the invitation to go to Belgrade, what happened there? And then tell us about the movements that you made, using the map, using the pointer, and moving at a speed that will not be either too fast or too slow for us.

A. After I was invited, a vehicle arrived from Belgrade, belonging to our unit, I was transported to our headquarters in Belgrade, and we received instructions there. They told us that if we had any documents, they should be left behind for our own personal safety, our driving licence and everything else that could disclose our identity, that was to be left in the office of the headquarters. After that, as we arrived at different times, as soon as a group had been formed, they told us to go and have a walk around town so as to avoid having a crowd of people in front of the building itself. I don't know how much time within the by, but we gathered together again, and a sort of lecture -- we were given a lecture about morale and so on. And we were told that we would be going to the theatre of war, to Bosnia. We weren't told which part of Bosnia or the objectives of the operation. But after that, the buses arrived. We were taken by bus to --

Q. Can I interrupt you for one moment? Who was it who was giving you this talk, and were the people that you were joining up with any of them ¹²¹⁹³ people you had known from the Super Tigers?

A. All the Super Tigers responded. I can't say we all did, but we did in large numbers. Then there were members of other units from the support and reinforcement units, and this morale boosting talk was held by Legija and Arkan himself.

Q. Thank you. And back to the buses, and use the map as you need to.

A. After that, we were taken to a place called Lipovacka Suma, which is close by Belgrade, which is where the barracks were belonging to the special police, and they were waiting for us there because people from other buses were turning up, not only our people, but buses with others too. We stayed there for a very brief period of time. I can't tell you how long exactly. But after that we were sent to Petrova Gora. No. It was to Mount Tara, Mount Tara, where we stayed for several days so that we could organise ourselves to go to the theatre of war. And to prevent us from getting bored, although we were wearing civilians clothes as we arrived, we would have a theoretical brush-up course on mines, infantry training and so on and so forth, and we would move around the territory, but we were in civilian clothes, so we couldn't move around too much. It would have been silly to move around the forest area and so on. Then we returned from Mount Tara, back to Lipovacka Suma, where we went to the barracks and were given -- we were issued weapons very quickly. They just handed out the rifles and smaller weapons. There was no record of this, not to use it, but to put it in the buses so they could be transported further afield. And a column was organised there, except for the buses, there were trailers there too with the different military ¹²¹⁹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²¹⁹⁵ equipment and materiel, trailer trucks. And we started out towards Bosnia, the border with Bosnia. Where we crossed the border, actually, I can't say, but I do know that the border crossing was somewhere nearby Bijeljina. Whether it was Zeljeznicki Most, the railway bridge or Pavlovica Cuprija I don't know, but we had to wait --

Q. Pause there. Looking at the map and using the pointer, can you just indicate in general where the Tara place was where you went first?

MR. NICE: The Court can also find it on the atlas at page 33, in the north-west corner.

A. I can't see anything on this small map.

Q. Well, can you just give us the rough -- if you can't, it doesn't matter, but if you can give us the rough area of the Tara mountain on the map, we'd be grateful.

MR. NICE: Meanwhile, while that's happening, Your Honour --

A. Found it.

MR. NICE: Your Honours see he pointed -- that's the shape that he points there is reflected in the top right-hand corner of page 33 of the atlas, which of course shows the western boundary of Serbia and the eastern boundary of Bosnia.

Q. So that's where you went first. And staying with this map, can you just -- I'm sure the Judges know, but for others viewing, can you just give a rough indication of where it was you crossed into Bosnia?

A. We crossed Bosnia -- into Bosnia around the Bijeljina area.

Q. I imagine the Judges will all know where that is. And then where did you go after that? ¹²¹⁹⁶

A. After Bijeljina, we set off through the corridor towards Bosnia. We didn't know the exact location until we actually arrived there. We didn't know the direction we were going in. But the next day we ended up the Petrova Gora itself.

Q. Very well. Can you point that out on the map for us?

A. [Marks]

Q. And just, having found it -- there we are. Thank you. So you went through the corridor on the north of Bosnia, passing into Bosnia somewhere in the region of Bijeljina, that is, on the north-east of Bosnia, and then emerged into Petrova Gora in Croatia?

A. Yes.

Q. Petrova Gora can be found in the atlas at page 20, in square B3. It's quite well marked, just to the north or north-west of Velika Kladusa.

While in Petrova Gora, what happened?

A. At Petra Gora we stopped off for about one, two, or three days. I can't say exactly now. We were waiting for everything to be organised and to receive orders as to where we were to head for. We were given equipment, and the rifles were issued, not like they were beforehand, when we were just handed them out for transport purposes. We were issued weapons and we were divided up into combat units, so that each combat unit was issued the equipment and weapons they needed. And then we were send off to the area and a place called Katinovac.

Q. Before we come to that, the place where you were -- and where you were given your equipment, did you discover that it was a headquarters of ¹²¹⁹⁷ some kind?

A. It was a logistics base. I would call it that, because there were stockpiles of fuel and weapons, and a landing strip, takeoff strip for helicopters, and a hospital, and the staff was there, too the headquarters.

Q. The man Frenki, did he feature as having any significance at this base or not?

A. That was not -- he was not directly our commander, but he was the commander to our commander, so he was a leading personage there. I don't know whether to call him the main commander or something else.

Q. Included in the equipment you were provided and clothing you were provided, were there berets; if so, of what colour and with what badge or other insignia?

A. Of course we were issued berets so that we could be like the other units stationed there, and there was a sword with the three Cs in Cyrillic, with our flag. That was the insignia.

THE INTERPRETER: Four Cs, Sorry. Interpreter's mistake. Ss.

MR. NICE:

Q. And the colour of the berets?

A. Red.

Q. One last detail. You effectively covered it, but I'd like you to be clear, paragraph 56. When you were first driven from Belgrade to Lipovacka Suma, who was driving the buses and how were they dressed?

A. Some of the drivers were policemen, and the buses, some of them belonged to the police and the rest had civilian number plates. They were ¹²¹⁹⁸ Belgrade buses.

Q. Equipped in the way you had been in Petrova Gora and you say that the rifles were issued, does that mean they were issued with unique numbers against individual soldiers? Is that right?

A. Yes. There were serial numbers, but I can't say whether each soldier -- the names weren't stated. It was just so-and-so, one weapon or 20, 30, or however many were issued, for one platoon.

Q. Then your first order, once you were properly equipped, was given by who, and it was to do what? Paragraph 62, page 25.

A. The first order -- or rather, the order we received was in the form of instructions, that it was our job to train the army of National Defence from Western Bosnia. Because at that time there was a clash in Bosnia between Fikret Abdic and the 5th Corps. The army of Fikret Abdic was the Army of Defence of Western Bosnia, and we were supposed to train them in combat action, which would follow in the next couple of days. It wasn't any major training. It was just three or four days of training to explain to the men how they should move in formation, et cetera.

Q. And Velika Kladusa, which I've already drawn to the Judges' attention on page 20 of the atlas, was that the place to which you went, or to that area?

A. The area around Velika Kladusa, because Velika Kladusa was still under the corps's control.

Q. And at this stage of events, by whom was Fikret Abdic's army being equipped in part?

A. The weapons themselves and the clothing, they probably had to fend ¹²¹⁹⁹ for themselves. The weapons, however, had mostly come from us, because they had already been expelled out of that territory. They did have some weapons, but some older trophy weapons, automatics from World War II, things like that. That belonged to them, or they had got it from somewhere. I can't really say. But the better type of equipment, automatic rifles, et cetera, they got from us.

Q. Did you participate in battles for some time there?

A. Yes.

Q. Indeed, until the liberation, as described, of Velika Kladusa, and also in the same square of the map.

MR. NICE: Perhaps we can just place this on the overhead projector at page 20, bottom right-hand part of the page, Vrnograc.

A. I didn't participate until the liberation of Velika Kladusa, because prior to the liberation of Velika Kladusa I was wounded.

Q. We can see on the map Velika Kladusa and, east of that, Vrnograc. And were the units you described deployed, at any event, in battles in these areas?

A. Which units do you have in mind?

Q. We're speaking of yourself, your own unit.

A. Yes, our units did participate, my unit specifically, and other units who came with us, who also wore red berets.

Q. Did there come a time, however, when the Red Berets - paragraph 64 - had sustained some losses?

A. Our group did. Within three or four days, we had three casualties, and more than half of us were wounded. ¹²²⁰⁰

Q. And were there actual losses, and were those losses associated with a stopping of direct involvement of the Red Berets in these operations?

A. Initially, as far as I know, we did not fully uphold the orders we were given, because we were not supposed to participate directly in operations, only in coordination of actions. However, initially we did participate in operations themselves. We suffered losses. And then later on, we were split into groups that were in charge of training, observation, and further coordination of new operations.

Q. Was there a lieutenant with the first name Jugoslav, known as Jugo? What happened to him in your unit? What happened to him?

A. During the Rajnovac operation he was killed by the mosque.

[redacted]

Q. Was there another DB officer, whose name you're unable to recall, who fell on the field?

A. I can't tell you exactly whether he was an officer of the DB. He was a commander of the special police unit, which at the time was stationed in our barracks in Erdut. And then after the withdrawal of the Serb volunteer guards, special police were sent into those barracks, and he led it, and I think his nickname was Kole. I believe he was a colonel. After he died, his picture was printed among the death notices in Belgrade daily Vecernje Novosti, and it was said that he died defending his homeland. ¹²²⁰¹

MR. NICE: Can we go briefly, or fairly briefly, into private session for the next page and a half, and then back into public session at the end.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹²²⁰² ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹²²⁰³ Page 12203 - redacted - private session

¹²²⁰⁴ Page 12204 - redacted - private session

¹²²⁰⁵ Page 12205 - redacted - private session

¹²²⁰⁶ Page 12206 - redacted - private session

¹²²⁰⁷

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: ¹²²⁰⁸

Q. C-020, with units deployed in the area under Frenki's command, were there instructions as to how you were or were not allowed to have yourselves identified? What, if anything, were you to do about your having come from Serbia?

A. We received instructions from Legija prior to setting out. We were told that we were not allowed to say what unit we actually belonged to. Instead of our insignia, we did not use any insignia, and we were not allowed to reveal that we were members of our actual unit. We were told that if we came into a situation where we had to say, and only in front of our personnel, our people, we were to say that we were members of special police from Serbia. And if we fell into enemies' hands, then we were not allowed to say anything.

Q. As to your red berets, did you wear those on combat operations or not?

A. As far as the first two operations are concerned, after them we saw that the terrain wasn't in accordance with that. And after that, we had woolen hats and camouflage hats. That's what we wore afterwards.

Q. Were you allowed to reveal yourself as, in any way, Arkan's men?

A. It wasn't directly banned, but we were told it wasn't a good idea because there was Muslim population there, and even though this was Western Bosnia, they still didn't have a good opinion about Arkan's men.

Q. How were you paid, and where?

A. We received part of the money right there, in the field; and then the other part was sent to the headquarters. And when we went home, since after a certain number of battles we would go home for a brief while in ¹²²⁰⁹ groups, then the second part of the money we would receive in headquarters itself.

Q. Fikret Abdic's part of Bosnia was divided into how many operational zones?

A. As far as I know, into two tactical groups.

Q. One commanded by --

A. One Tactical Group was under the command of us, that is, Legija, and the other one -- our group was called Tactical Group 2, and the commander of Tactical Group 1 was Rajo Bozovic.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, there's a video which is going to be produced by the next witness, and I think it's four minutes long. I have extracted from it, or there have been extracted from it two stills. I think the purpose to which we would put that video to this witness is better served by showing him the two stills, and you can then associate the stills with the video when it's played with the next witness. How we deal with that in terms of exhibit formalities, I'm not sure, but it will save time and I think will be more efficient. Please put them on the ELMO. Apparently the video is cued for -- it's a one-minute clip so we might play it as well, but--

Q. Can you tell us, please, who in this picture you can identify?

A. This is a picture from the parade at Slunj, and I can identify on the left -- shall I show you?

Q. Yes, please.

A. That is Rajo Bozovic, and on the right is Legija. And with his back turned here -- you can't see, but I know this picture from Slunj, ¹²²¹⁰ that is President Martic.

Q. Perhaps as the video has been cued and it's only a minute, perhaps we can play it. I'd ask the booth to do that, in which case may the video, this part of it, be marked for identification only and then it can be properly produced in due course. So this is the parade in Slunj. Held on what day, please, C-020?

[Videotape played]

A. This was called the Vidovdan parade. It was held on the 28th of June, on St. Vitus Day.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much. I think, Your Honour, the speed at which identification by video is to be done is asking the impossible sometimes. It may be preferable if we mark the video for identification. And if I arrange to have further copies of those two other photographs produced and, with your leave, make them the seventh tab of this exhibit, and they can be provided later.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll do that.

MR. NICE: Then there's just paragraph 71 and 72 to deal with.

THE REGISTRAR: The stills will be marked under Exhibit P347, tab 7.1 and .2.

MR. NICE:

Q. Did you have one occasion to go and introduce yourself to Frenki, paragraph 72, or to try to introduce yourself to Frenki?

A. Only once.

Q. Where was that?

A. I was given an order by Legija during the night to go to Petrova ¹²²¹¹ Gora to collect some maps that we needed for the next day for our operation, and at the headquarters where I picked up the maps, the order was that I address myself to Frenki. I had never seen that man in my life, and so Legija told me that once I entered, I was to introduce myself and to ask for Frenki.

Q. Did you do that, and did the man Frenki appear?

A. Yes. He was sitting in the room where the maps were when I introduced myself. The maps were already waiting for me, packed, so it was only a couple of minutes that I was there. And so he just asked me, "So you're the one?" And he mentioned my name.

Q. And Frenki's height, approximately, and appearance?

A. In those couple of minutes that one can measure a man, he was about 1 metre, 80; therefore, a tall man, of athletic build. He wore glasses, ordinary glasses; thin hair, brown in colour. I can't be more detailed in my description.

Q. And what did you know or come to know of the frequency of meetings between Milorad Ulemek and Frenki?

A. I know that Legija, after every operation, went for coordination purposes, and prior to any operation for coordination purposes, to Petrova Gora. So the story was that he was going to a meeting with Frenki. Now, whether he actually met with Frenki himself or someone from his staff, I can't say.

MR. NICE: That concludes the examination-in-chief. And as I think I forecast, the evidence did not last as long as the size of the summary might have led us to believe. ¹²²¹²

JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination in the morning. I'm reminded we're sitting tomorrow between 9.00 and 1.00.

Witness C-020, could you be back, please, 9.00 tomorrow morning to conclude your evidence.

We'll rise now.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.