Milosevic Transcript 2002-11-22

¹³²⁷²

Friday, 22 November 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've been given a copy, we understand it, of the Vance Plan, an extract from a book. We'll give it an exhibit number. The next exhibit, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 355.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you for that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we also provided the list of the 14 witnesses. Thank you.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

A. Good morning. Yes.

Q. Yesterday, you mentioned the Colonel Smiljanic and his role in providing weapons.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness tab 111 of Exhibit 352. And it's actually a letter by Colonel Dusan Smiljanic regarding various matters, including the Martic arrest, of the 15th of October, 1994.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this letter while you had ¹³²⁷³ your conversations with the Prosecutor in The Hague?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. In relation to the letterhead and the stamp used in this letter and the signature, are they authentic for that time?

A. They are.

Q. Are you able to identify the signature of Mr. Smiljanic or are you not familiar with it?

A. I'm not familiar with the signature.

Q. In relation to the contents of this letter, I would like to direct you to page 2. It's page 2 in the English, and I assume it's also page 2 in the Serbian version. We have highlighted some paragraphs for you in blue, and I would like you to turn to the first blue mark, and it says here:

"I illegally established links with leading figures in the SDS in the Lika, Banija, Kordun, and Banja Luka area with a group of OB security organs and military police at the end of April and the beginning of May, and I began the illegal distribution of arms to Serbian people..." And it continues: "This action continued until the beginning of June 1991..."

Can you -- is that correct? Did it happen in that time period in the way described in this paragraph?

A. Yes, it did.

MR. KAY: May I raise a matter here? Isn't preferable for the witness to give evidence about it rather than commenting on someone else's letter which contains much more detail and information, the authenticity ¹³²⁷⁴ of which cannot be proved through this witness? Isn't it better for him just to give his evidence on the subject about the matter?

JUDGE MAY: He can comment on the letter if he has knowledge about it. It's a question of weight, isn't it, as to how much weight one can give a comment of that sort as opposed to the evidence which he chooses to give or he can give?

MR. KAY: As I understood it, he had no knowledge of the letter.

JUDGE MAY: No, but he has knowledge of the events, which is --

MR. KAY: Yes. What I'm --

JUDGE MAY: -- the part of the evidence which is important.

MR. KAY: What I'm saying is isn't it better that he gives evidence about the event rather than in this form?

JUDGE MAY: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you've heard that comment. If you want to expand the witness's evidence on this point, of course you can.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, actually, yesterday the witness has already mentioned that through Mr. Smiljanic, weapons could be ordered, and he also mentioned that it was done through a place in the Bihac airport region. So -- but I can, of course, let him give more details on the matter. I actually thought only to confirm what he said yesterday on this matter.

Q. Were weapons organised through Mr. Smiljanic in the time period from April to June 1991, and also later on; and if so, in which way was it done?

A. Yes, I know specifically for July and August 1991, in such a way ¹³²⁷⁵ that, from my own personal knowledge, Colonel Smiljanic himself offered his services for the procurement of weapons for the Serbs in Krajina.

Q. When you said he offered his services, how did he do that? What did he actually suggest he could do?

A. That we should address him for any needs in weapons, and he, or rather, General Nikola Uzelac, the so-called Little Uzelac, the commander of the Zagreb Corps, needed volunteers for tanks.

Q. Does that mean Mr. Smiljanic asked you to organise - you in the Krajina, not you personally - organise tank crews?

A. Yes. Volunteers who would join tank crews.

Q. And did the authorities in the Krajina do that? Did you organise tank crew members?

A. Efforts were made along those lines. To what extent they were successful, I don't know for sure.

Q. And in relation to the weapons, still in relation to the weapons, when you had requests to make to Mr. Smiljanic, how would that be done in practical terms? What would you do? Would you give him lists? Can you explain it in practical terms what actually happened?

A. Men would go to see him who would order weapons, and they -- he would provide them for them from the warehouse and then they would distribute them.

Q. And when you say "warehouse," where was the warehouse?

A. I know specifically about the warehouse in Zeljava, which is a place close to Bihac airport, which was the place of delivery, for three deliveries of such weapons. ¹³²⁷⁶

Q. And in which time period did these three deliveries take place?

A. At the end of July and the beginning of August 1991.

Q. In relation to the letter, I would like to refer you now to the second blue mark in the letter. It's on page 3. And it starts with: "Arming the Serbian people," and refers to the time period up to the end of 1991. And it also says here:

"Besides this, I also had connections with the Defence Ministry of the Republic of Serbia, given that ministry's then role in conducting the arms struggle."

What role did the MOD Serbia have in that arms struggle of the people in the Krajina?

A. I am aware of the logistics support it provided.

Q. Which logistics support did the Ministry of Defence of Serbia provide, and how was that done?

A. In materiel and equipment.

Q. And how was that done? In which way, in practical terms?

A. Men whose duty it was to do that went there.

Q. And which persons went there? Or do we need to go into private session for this?

A. I know that the president of the government at the time went on a number of occasions, that is, the prime minister. I know of that specifically.

Q. At what times did the prime minister go there? Can you tell us the approximate dates?

A. I know of at least one or two occasions in September, and at least ¹³²⁷⁷ one occasion in November, 1991.

Q. And to whom did the prime minister then speak when he went there?

A. To General Simovic, the Minister of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.

Q. And how did then the deliveries arrive for equipment and the other things? How did the deliveries arrive? How was that organised?

A. Technically, I don't know how. I just know that it did arrive.

Q. I would like to refer you now to the next blue marker, and I will quote from the letter:

"Given the great opposition and problems in forming the Brigade, especially in the Lika area and part of Banija in September 1991, I organised meetings of the most advanced reserve officers and the then representatives of the authorities in Gracac and Vrhovine, at which the current president of the RSK, Milan Martic, was present. Following these meetings, a brigade was formed in Gracac, Udbina, Vrhovine, and Plaski. On the afternoon of the same day, I travelled to Novi Grad with Milan Martic intending to resolve some questions about the final capture of Kostajnica. On returning from Novi Grad, we were arrested in Otoka village, as you are aware."

Sir, did you know about such meetings with reserve officers to organise the brigade in that region?

A. Yes, I have heard of them.

Q. Was the prime minister of SAO Krajina present during such meetings?

A. Yes. ¹³²⁷⁸

Q. I would like to refer you now to the next chapter in the letter which is marked, and it says:

"At the beginning of May 1992, I contacted General Tolimir, who was in Knin. Having regard to the uncertainty and the cause of events, I agreed with Tolimir, with the agreement of the Corps Commander, that a part of the assets and the police equipment should be transferred to the RSK," and he makes special reference to nine armoured combat vehicles. Were such armed combat vehicles -- were they actually taken over by the police, and in which way was that done?

A. There was the takeover of such vehicles by the police.

Q. And do you know whether from your personal knowledge whether General Tolimir was involved in this takeover?

A. No.

Q. Then in the next paragraph that is marked in blue it says: "After the famous telegram that officers and soldiers born in the territory of the FRY should withdraw (active military personnel made up 70 per cent of the VP battalion), officers born in the FRY were told to go to the VJ, those from BH to the RS, and you Palestinians from the RSK can go to Nis or wherever you want."

What do you know from your personal knowledge about this transfer of personnel?

A. I know that in the month of May, an order arrived that officers originating from Yugoslavia should immediately abandon the territory of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, and people said that there were even some funny scenes when senior officers abandoned units and literally fled from ¹³²⁷⁹ the territory.

Q. Yes. We can turn away from the document. Witness, in this document, it also said that Mr. Smiljanic was arrested together with Milan Martic. Did you know that at that time that he was arrested together with Martic?

A. Yes, I did.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness the transcript of an intercepted conversation, tab 27 of Exhibit 353.

JUDGE MAY: I need to speak to the legal officer, please.

[Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Did you have an opportunity to listen in to a conversation between Dobrica Cosic and Radovan Karadzic?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Could you identify -- did you recognise the voices of the two?

A. Yes, I did. Karadzic and Cosic.

Q. Were you familiar with the voice of Dobrica Cosic?

A. Yes. I talked to him personally on several occasions.

Q. What was his position?

A. He was a writer, a member of the Serbian Academy of Science and Art, and later on president of the Federal Republic of Serbia.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the usher, could we please put on the ¹³²⁸³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³²⁸⁴ ELMO the English version and, in particular, the first marked passage.

Q. And Witness, if you look into your Serbian version, there is a first on page 3. It should be on page 3. There is a marked version. The marked version of page 3. And let me read.

Mr. Radovan Karadzic says:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Because they wanted to get Knin involved too, and so on, I told them not to do anything like that at all. Cosic then:

DOBRICA COSIE: Of course, of course. And then:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: This Milan guy has just made a stupid mistake, and then my guys ... here, I've just spoken with the vice Premier, he's our man, about this drill in Drvar.

And then Cosic asks:

DOBRICA COSIC: What drill?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, they conducted a drill today in Drvar, with their, um ... unit, a hundred and fifty battalion, one hundred and fifty special forces troops.

Witness, do you know from your own knowledge whether there was a drill in Drvar of a unit and who did that?

A. There was a drill by the special police force in Knin in the month of July, 1991.

Q. Does that mean the special police force of (redacted) conducted an exercise in Drvar?

JUDGE KWON: Isn't it Milan Martic? ¹³²⁸⁵

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Milan Martic. Yes. Milan Martic, yes. Milan Martic. I made a mistake. Sorry. Milan Martic.

Q. Yes. Did --

A. That's right, yes, Milan Martic.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, do you have any idea when this dialogue took place?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer the Judge's question first.

JUDGE KWON: Did you follow the question?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This exercise took place in June 1991, and that's when this conversation was held.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it doesn't say here -- in the text itself, it doesn't say "Milan Martic." It just says "Milan." There's no surname. So on the basis of what grounds is he able to say that,(redacted) Milan is meant,whether it's Milan Martic or (redacted) (redacted)?

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We can have a discussion about that in due course. He can be asked.

But the troubling matter is this: We've got this arrest in September, and this transcript seems to be dated the 8th of June. Is that right?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: So we're going back to June now. ¹³²⁸⁶

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are actually having one incident preceding this.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness had referred to the fact that Martic was operating, and I actually have organised it to have that whole incidence and how it is connected.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, then I would like to clarify a matter with you. Did Milan Martic organise this drill in Drvar?

A. That's right. Milan Martic took out the unit, about 100, 150 men, and he publicly held this drill in Drvar. This was common knowledge through the media as well.

Q. I would like to refer you now to the next marked passage, and if the usher would put the English version, page 4 of the transcript, here. Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Cosic are discussing the border crossing, and it says:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: And most concretely here, say, it could cause the Bosnian MUP to control their border crossing more intensely.

DOBRICA COSIC: Of course, anything could happen.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, I can't prevent that, and that is the only place where they can be helped, through, which... And then Radovan Karadzic also says: "That's where their food supplies are going through, their blankets and so on. And then, the only border which he should have spared of incidents, he is making stupid ¹³²⁸⁷ mistakes there."

Did the fact that Mr. Martic organised an exercise in that region, Drvar, did that really endanger the supply routes to the Krajina?

A. No, it did not.

Q. Were blankets -- reference is made here to food supplies and blankets. Were also weapons transported this route?

A. That's right. Yes, it was the only entrance towards the Dalmatia and Lika part of the SAO Krajina, this entrance through Yugoslav territory.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can turn now to the next intercept, and that's actually an intercept that needs to be played, at least in part. And I would request to have that played in private session, for an obvious reason. Your Honour, I forgot to tell you: It's tab 12 in the intercept binder, Exhibit 353.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³²⁸⁸ Page 13288 - redacted - private session

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's track 9, for the technical booth. Can we please have that played. And beforehand, I have to tell you: In the English version, it starts on page 1, with the sentence: "I have an information, I don't know whether it's true, that Martic was arrested," and it ends on page 2 with the sentence: "It is all scenario that they prepared."

JUDGE KWON: Before that, I have a question. Mr. Witness, was it also popular among the politicians to call weapons as blankets or medicines or something like that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. It was moderately coded, of course.

JUDGE KWON: What else were the weapons called other than blankets ¹³²⁹³ and medicines?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Planks, wooden boards. That was the first term used. Flour, sugar, batteries.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We could play now the intercept, the part of it.

[Intercept played]

JS: I have a piece of information, I don't know whether it's true, that Martic was arrested somewhere in Bosanska Krupa.

RK: No, no, it's not Martic, but Martic's men allegedly, three Martic men were arrested, and then a truckload of Martic men came and liberated -- those three Martic men and allegedly some Television Belgrade journalist in some ...

JS: Martic wasn't there.

RK: No, no, Martic wasn't there. But I just called Babic, he says he has no knowledge that any of their men were there. I think it is a provocation, that it is them, we will deny it resolutely. We can also affirmatively prove that there is a lot of MUP Croatia men in Capljina and Mostar walking around freely, and no one can prove that Martic's men were there because there is no information that they were there or that they needed to go there, to go through Krupa. Someone wants to close the roads to SAO Krajina.

JS: Yes, yes, want to close roads, correct.

RK: And they're using, they're using provocation and want to close the roads. I think it's them, they need a crisis and I think they ¹³²⁹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³²⁹⁵ staged it all.

JS: Staged, right.

RK: Yes, and the arrival of that truck. Hello.

JS: Yes, yes, I can hear you.

RK: The arrival of that truck and everything else, the kidnapping and it wouldn't be possible, I think it's all lies and staged. It's all staged because Babic has no information about it, he investigated whether any groups went anywhere, and there's nothing about any of that. They had no need to go there otherwise and they should be told not to go anywhere in Bosnia because in our municipalities we keep things in our own hands, no need for everyone to come anywhere.

JS: Yes, yes they won't, won't come, nor do they have a need to.

RK: They have no need to come at all. Those are not Martic's men for sure but they need a crisis and drama and so on. He wants to internationalise, Alija Izetbegovic wants to internationalise Bosnia and therefore he shouldn't be helped in doing that. Here, I told Babic down there tough discipline should be imposed not to move, no one to move outside. All military factors should be under single command, and total military factors should be in agreement with the political factor, because we have information, we know what they want.

JS: Aha.

RK: They wanted to, they banged the army near Okucani and they banged ours near Okucani. They were looking for an opportunity for someone to make a move so they can fuck up the conference in The Hague. Because if a fax arrived that we moved and that was confirmed, Tudjman and ¹³²⁹⁶ Genscher would have left the conference and Croatia would have been recognised, troops would be sent there, et cetera. It's all scenario that they prepared.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

Q. Witness, who -- did you recognise the voices of the people who spoke?

A. Yes, I did. Jovica Stanisic and Radovan Karadzic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to turn now to the next intercept, and this is not an intercept to be played. It's tab 13 in the intercept binder, and I just want to discuss some marked passages with the witness. The first is on page 28 of the English, 28, in the middle, in the middle of the page, actually. On the ELMO. Yes

Q. Witness, if you look at your first marked part in the Serbian transcript, it says here:

K: So this information is certain. Milan Martic, make a note of this, to convey, the information, to Mr. Cengic. Milan Martic, and, Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Biljanic, one of his escorts.

R: Were they all in uniform?

K: I don't know how they were, dressed but anyway, Milan Martic, Dusan Biljanic, one of his escorts who is a Lieutenant Colonel, our men and Milan Boric staff sergeant were there.

Did you have an opportunity to listen to this intercept while you had your conversations with the Prosecutor; and if so, did you recognise who was speaking?

A. Yes, I did. I recognised the voice of Radovan Karadzic. ¹³²⁹⁷

Q. Did you recognise the voice of this other person who is here called -- who introduce themselves as "I am Lieutenant Colonel Kostic"?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did this intercept refer to the arrest of Milan Martic?

A. Yes, that was mentioned.

Q. And the Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Biljanic who was mentioned here, is that correct or is the name misspelled?

A. It is Smiljanic. Smiljanic was there. "Biljanic" is incorrect.

Q. And following the -- following the transcript --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have to go into private session for one short moment.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³²⁹⁸

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Did you also have the opportunity to listen to this conversation that you have now in written form in front of you, another intercept between Karadzic and Colonel Kostic, referring to 3.000 people coming to the police station?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you get information that actually 3.000 people were gathering there?

A. Yes, that's right.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can now turn to the next intercept. It's tab 8, and we are actually playing a part of it. And for the technical booth, it's track 10, and for Your Honours it is tab 8, and the part that is played actually starts on page 1 with the word "Hallo," and ends -- the part we play ends on ten page -- sorry, page 10, and ends with the sentence:

M: I'll deal with. I'll try to get hold of Veljko.

[Intercept played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

XY: Hallo.

R: Hallo. I'm sorry, Sarajevo calling again. It's very urgent. I have to speak to the president.

XY: Just a moment.

M: Good morning. What's the time? ¹³²⁹⁹

R: It's two o'clock. I'm sorry, we've been calling you all day, but we didn't manage to...

M: No problem. I didn't have your phone here.

R: So here's what this is about. The problem is serious. The SUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina were there - the Otoka public security station which comes under Bosanska Krupa - has detained a colonel, a sergeant, and Martic, and his escort. And now the SDA over there has probably organised a gathering of people. There are already 3.000 people with tractors and whatnot, and one can't do anything, the army, until someone from the top does something. But there will be a disaster. The Serbs from Bosnian Krajina and from SAO Krajina will rush in and the danger will be great. I mean, we won't be able to control it at all.

M: Right. Aren't there any HDZ members there who could...

R: No, the HDZ has nothing to do with it. The entire region is Serbian and Muslim.

M: And neither is the SDA which could...

R: No. The SAO is influential there, and they could top it. I'm in touch with Cengic now and I'll try to...

M: They have been detained by the MUP?

R: Yes, that's right. They came for some kind of discussions and were detained, and now the people have gathered there. Even these military circles don't believe it's spontaneous either. Now the danger is increasing from one minute to the next.

M: Who has assembled there? Have the SDA members assembled?

R: Yes, yes. The SDA too, and that colonel is there. They ¹³³⁰⁰ offered to let the colonel go but he didn't want to, and those from the army didn't allow it either.

M: So, they are together, is that right?

R: Yes, yes.

M: Where is this exactly?

R: It's in Otoka, Bosanska Krupa. Otoka is on the border towards Bosanski Novi. And now the Serbian forces in Dvor na Uni and in Knin have been aroused and they want to set off from the two directions below.

M: How far is it from there?

R: I don't know. I don't have it here on the map, but we'll be there in three or four hours. The aircraft can't take off now. Helicopters can't get through. And 10, 15, 20 policemen will come from Bihac, but that is nothing, nothing. The army must get involved.

M: It must. How long until dawn, two hours at least? There's no helicopter. It's not possible to leave either.

R: Yes, it's not possible before dawn, and in the dark it's risky business for both the pilot and the helicopter, but they have to know about this. They know about this in the General Staff, but they don't have the initiative.

M: So what are they waiting for, God's blessing?

R: Yes.

M: It's at Bosanski Novi, you say. So Otoka.

R: At the border between Bosanski Novi and Bosanska Krupa, but it comes under Bosanska Krupa.

M: Uh-huh, right. ¹³³⁰¹

R: It's a matter of minutes here. It can certainly be ... the whole of Knin is on its feet, their special units stirring and they are very, very ... they must be quickly told that they have to be released, otherwise there will be serious problems.

M: I'll deal with it. I'll get hold of Veljko.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

Q. Who -- did you recognise the voices of the two speakers?

A. Yes, I did. Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic.

Q. When did that conversation take place? Can you tell from the contents?

A. It took place between the 8th and 9th or the 9th and 10th of September, 1991.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, on the transcript is the wrong date.

Q. Were you aware that Mr. Milosevic got involved?

A. Yes.

Q. And Mr. Milosevic says at the end of the tape that we played, he says:

M: I'll deal with it. I'll try to get hold of Veljko. Do you know of which Veljko he's speaking?

A. General Veljko Kadijevic.

Q. What is the basis of this? Why do you think he's referring to Veljko Kadijevic?

A. So that the army would be engaged in liberating Martic, in freeing Martic from Krupa. ¹³³⁰²

Q. Witness, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic are discussing this as a very serious event, and they make references that the Serbs from Bosnian Krajina and from the SAO Krajina will rush in and the danger will be great. Did this actually -- this event actually cause the -- did -- was there actually danger that a war would break out if something would happen to Martic?

A. There was a danger that an ethnic conflict would break out between the Serbs and the Muslims.

Q. And were --

JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. Was Mr. Martic arrested at this time, 8th of September?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Was he arrested on the 8th of September?

A. Yes. He was arrested in Otoka, in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or he was detained, or he was kept in custody at the police station. Perhaps that would be the right wording.

JUDGE KWON: As of 8th of September.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness actually had said he wasn't sure whether it was the 8th or the 9th or the 7th or the 8th. So he couldn't be precise as to the exact day. One day or the other, the 8th or --

Q. But let me confirm with you.

JUDGE MAY: I think he gave, because I asked him, and he gave a broader spread of dates. Between the 7th and the 11th he gave. ¹³³⁰³

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Is that --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

Q. Did actually the Serbs in the SAO Krajina prepare to move in to free Mr. Martic? Do you know that?

A. Yes. They were preparing, the special police was, from the direction of Dvor na Uni and Bosanski Novi.

Q. We can turn to the next intercept, but it would have to be in closed session again. It's also something that we are going to play partly. And for the technical booth, it's track 11, and for Your Honours it's tab 9 of the exhibit binder, and we are actually playing page 1, 2, and up to the last paragraph of page 3 of the English transcript.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁰⁴ Pages 13304-13308 - redacted - private session

¹³³⁰⁹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, the next intercept is tab 10 in the intercept binder, and for the technical booth, it is track 12, and we also play a part of it, and we play -- from the English transcripts it's page 15, we play entirely. And from page 16, we play only up till "Certainly suits Tudjman and perhaps Alija too."

[Intercept played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

R: Hello.

M: Hello, Radovan. I've spoken to him --

R: Uh-huh, what does he say?

M: He didn't know anything. He was sleeping. He -- it was probably one of his men from the General Staff who received the information you told me. I told him I was informed that we were informed, and I presented the situation to him as being very serious. He immediately took measures, and he said he would immediately take measures. Banja Luka is the nearest place in which there are substantial forces which can deal with it immediately. It is night-time and helicopters can't fly immediately, but we'll see how to deal it as soon as ¹³³¹⁰ it dawns. Jovica tells me that some helicopter has left to get this person.

R: Nothing has left and that's the problem. I'm afraid that MUP, the Muslim part of MUP, shall hand him over to the Croatian MUP. Someone might arrange this. And then it will be war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Then no one will be able to stop it.

M: No one could stop it then.

R: No one would be able to stop it then. And I don't know to what extent war would suit Alija, because he wants to...

M: Uh-huh. Vajnes was with me for about 15 minutes just now, and I suggested to Jovica, since he was in touch with Milan, to say that Martic should sign this protocol on this technical ... on the supervision of the cease-fire and respect -- no one shall open fire first.

R: Uh-huh, Uh-huh.

M: Babic agreed to this and didn't sign because they didn't want him to say that he was the president of the government of Krajina but instead wanted him to accept him as the representative of the Serbs in Croatia who is signing this in their name.

R: Uh-huh.

M: So I told Jovica to say that Martic would sign and that that would be an additional reason for which he should have to be free for this to work.

R: No, we'll take political advantage of this today. I have a meeting with Izetbegovic again today. They are simply heading towards a division of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We will carry out the establishment of ¹³³¹¹ regions and set up our MUPs wherever we are in power because what they have done is intolerable. We don't believe in any sort of spontaneity on their part, spontaneity of the gathering. The SDA has influence and power over there, and it all goes towards their ... but if the army doesn't sent a helicopter or an armoured personnel carrier as soon as possible to get the man out, then the danger will be great. Milan Brzakse has a permanent line to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina , to the part that is not under our control. It is a great danger. It would be a disaster if it happened.

M: I told the mechanism to tell Kadijevic that this should be quieted down.

R: Yes, but we can check with Adzic what they have done?

M: I was in touch with Kadijevic and he said that he would see how things stood. I haven't spoken to Adzic again this morning but I'll call him now.

R: Uh-huh. Do you want me to call him? It would be better for me to call him?

M: It will be better for me to call him, but you can call him too. My call needn't exclude yours.

R: All right.

M: Tell him things are the way they are and that I told you that I had spoken to him last night and that you were surprised that they haven't finished with it yet.

R: Their colonel is there too and a staff sergeant, but I mean this is incredible. We don't at all know who is in touch with the Ustashas from the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, and internationalising chaos in ¹³³¹² Bosnia-Herzegovina certainly suits Tudjman and perhaps Alija too.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

Q. Witness, who is speaking, and do you know when this conversation took place?

A. Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic. This was on the 8th or 9th of September, 1991, in relation to Martic's arrest in Otoka.

Q. All these conversations that we heard, were they actually -- did they actually occur on that same day or through the same night?

A. That's right, the night and the day, the morning after.

Q. And in this conversation, reference is made to "Jovica." Which Jovica?

A. Jovica Stanisic.

Q. Was there any other Jovica in -- closely associated with the MUP, Serbia, or Mr. Milosevic that could have been meant other than Stanisic?

A. I don't know about anything like that.

Q. Witness, there is a reference also made to the fact that Martic should sign this protocol. What kind of a protocol is talked about in relation to Wijnaendts?

A. Mr. Wijnaendts was representative of the international community or, rather, the European Community. This was a protocol relating to the cease-fire, and this was actually in preparation of The Hague conference.

Q. There is also mention made in this -- in this conversation to a person Adzic. Do you know who, who is meant?

A. General Adzic.

Q. And there is also mentioned a certain Milan Brzakse. Do you know ¹³³¹³ who that is?

A. Milan Brzakse, Minister or Deputy Minister of the MUP of Croatia.

Q. Yes. That's enough for this intercept.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to put to the witness two intercepts now, just very briefly, also dealing with that same issue, and it's tab 35 and --

JUDGE MAY: We're still in closed session -- private session. If so, we should go into open session.

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: We are in open session. Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to put to the witness tab 35 and tab 34.

Q. Witness, during your conversation with the Prosecutor and while you were listening in to intercepts, did you hear two conversations between Karadzic and Nikola Koljevic dealing and referring to the Martic arrest?

A. I did.

Q. Did you recognise the voices?

A. I did.

Q. Were you familiar with Mr. Koljevic's voice, and what kind of a voice did he have?

A. Yes. A soft voice, soft.

Q. Did you have opportunity to speak to him and hear his voice?

A. Yes, many times.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, those texts and transcripts ¹³³¹⁴ speak for themselves, and I wouldn't need to discuss them with the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. The next intercept is tab 11, and we will play a part of it. For the technical booth, it's track 13, and for you, Your Honour, for your orientation, it's -- in the translation, it's page 21, starting with, "I assume that you've been informed," and ending on page 22 with the half sentence, "... as we do towards ourselves."

[Intercept played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

M: I assume that you've been informed about this thing, I told them to inform you about Martic.

R: Yes, but it was mainly Aco who did it.

M: Aco Vasiljevic, that is. That's Veljko and Adzic.

R: No. I understand Alija very well now, and I'm very disappointed. I had to tell him this, otherwise he said he had to consult lawyers. You don't need lawyers if there's no arrest warrant. This is not a federal arrest warrant. We don't recognise the government, and we don't want to get involved in these things. He's not a drugs smuggler. The whole thing has misfired for him now since he wanted to hand this one over to them, but now he has been saved and Alija doesn't know what to do now.

R: All of this goes to show what kind of government we would be living under if we left Yugoslavia. I'm grateful to them because they are ¹³³¹⁵ screwing us. We are who we are.

M: Please, we are on our way. No more concessions to anyone. And if they want to fight, we're here and they can go to hell. We're here for whoever wants to fight and we're stronger.

R: And if they want to live in peace, we're here. No one will be either better or worse off than we are.

M: Whoever wants to follow Alija and fight against us can do so. They will lose and it will be a pleasure for us, but if they want to be honest and decent towards us, we will behave towards them as we do towards ourselves.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

Q. Witness, do you recognise the voices?

A. Yes. Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the transcript it said tab 13. Tab 13 is a conversation between Karadzic and General Kostic. So I don't know what it is. It says tab 13. That's what the transcript says.

JUDGE MAY: It's tab 11. I don't know why the transcript got it wrong if it did. Counsel clearly said tab 11.

So you can follow it, Mr. Milosevic, if you go to tab 11 and then if you look at the passage which has been played, it's been the bottom of page 21. If you look at the bottom, there are some page numbers.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. This was just a technical matter, Mr. May. There is often quite a bit of confusion amongst these documents of theirs. You see for yourself that it was 13 ¹³³¹⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³¹⁷ that was written here. Okay.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

Q. Do you know when this conversation took place? From the contents, can you say?

A. On the 9th or 10th of September, 1991.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the date on the transcript is wrong.

JUDGE KWON: And for the fairness of the record, I note the Prosecutor said tab 11 and track 13 for the audio-video unit.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, in relation to this intercept, I have a question which relates to a part that was not played, but immediately above the part where we started to play - and it's on page 21, Your Honours - there is reference made by Mr. Milosevic, and I quote:

M: I'll tell Goran now that he should get information on the names from your people, to call them all and then cause some trouble. Which Goran is mentioned? Do you know that? Which Goran is referred to? Can you see it from the contents?

A. Goran the chef de cabinet of president. It was Goran Milicevic. I think that Milicevic is what Goran's last name is.

Q. And after the text that we played there is another -- another quote I want to make and put to you. It's actually a few lines below the played text.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is on page 22, Your Honours, almost at ¹³³¹⁸ the end of it.

Q. Mr. Milosevic says:

M: Please give Krajisnik good instructions. Let him go to Strasbourg and get in touch with Ajga. They can go together on the federal plane.

Do you know which -- what was going on in Strasbourg and what Mr. Milosevic refers to here?

A. Some meeting. I don't know exactly.

Q. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in the context of the Martic arrest there is one more intercept, and it's tab 1 in the intercept binder, and I just want to put it briefly. It's tab 1A, I'm just informed; not tab 1, but tab 1A.

Q. While you listened in to all the tapes in the Prosecutor's office during your stay in The Hague, did you hear also this telephone conversation with Radovan Karadzic and again Lieutenant Colonel Kostic, referring to all -- the fact that all four are safe? On the first page there is the mentioning: "All four are safe." Do you recall to have heard that?

A. Yes, I remember this.

Q. And Mr. Radovan Karadzic says: "Excellent. Thank you very much, and many thanks to Aco." Do you know to which Aco he is referring?

A. Aco Vasiljevic, head of security of the JNA.

Q. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this concludes the ¹³³¹⁹ Martic-arrest-related intercepts, and I would now return to some other intercepts that refer to incidents that the witness has already spoken about, in particular, international conferences.

JUDGE MAY: This would obviously be a convenient time to break. We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, before I turn to the next intercept, my colleague Ms. Bauer has told me and reminded me that in relation to Mr. Milan Martic, we have four outstanding exhibits explaining his position, and I just want to tender them and discuss them briefly. And can the witness be shown exhibits -- tab 50, 51, 52 and 53 of Exhibit 352. And we actually do not need to discuss them. The witness should just briefly look at it.

Q. Tab 50 is a document regarding a decision to establish the Secretariat of Interior of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina from January 1991.

Witness, this document is not signed. Was it passed? Was a decision --

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And the next tab, 51, is appointment of Martic as Secretary of Interior in January of 1991; tab 52 are the minutes of the Executive Council related to these decisions; and tab 53 is the decree on internal organisation of the Secretariat of Internal Affairs from January 1991. ¹³³²⁰ You would not need to look into these exhibits, just to -- could you confirm the authenticity of these documents?

A. Yes, they are authentic.

Q. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That should be enough for the documents. Your Honours, when we tried to play this intercept -- this is the intercept that we tried to play, when we gave it up for a while. That's the intercept where there was quite some noise in the beginning, and I have to say that we were not able to actually reduce the noise, but I have to tell you that it's only lasting for a brief period. And for some technical reason I cannot explain, this noise cannot -- this part of the intercept cannot be cut out. But the intercept that actually the -- the important section of the intercept is then understood clearly, so I would have to ask you to endure the noise and wait until the text comes. What it is is the intercept tab 30, and for the technical booth, it's track 4. And actually, the translation of the part that we are going to hear is page 1, the lower -- the bottom section, starting with: "Three months are out of question..." And it stops on page 2 with the sentence: "Milan from down there, and, and, if it's needed, Momir from down there, and, I don't know, sit for an hour or two, till..." This is the section we are going to play and that will be understandable.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you. Could you start it?

[Intercept played] ¹³³²¹

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Three months are out of the question. I think that some things should be radically changed now, radically.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: And that there is no place in the army which is pro-Yugoslavian by orientation for those shooting at its soldiers' backs.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: You see, that is that.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes. What can make additional problems is that we decided to keep here, yes, to have them be late so that they cannot join them anywhere, well, I think they are having their three-day rest, and there Gligorov and this man are going to work again and so on.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: They have nothing more to do. Now we are the ones making the move, it's time for our move now. Gligorov and that man can do whatever they want, they won't ... the thing is clear there, we can't discuss it in detail now. They want to separate.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: That's clear.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That's clear and they should be allowed to separate.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Now there is only one question left, to have disintegration in line with our inclinations.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Nothing more.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Okay. They cannot wait for that man any more, ¹³³²² because they are in a hurry, aren't they?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Who are they expecting?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: The first one expected by them is this man of ours. Bosnia.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, they mustn't wait for him, no, concerning Slovenia, I would let them go immediately.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Let them go immediately, and the others as well after they have settled the issue of borders with us. And I cannot let your man, because your man cannot even bring it to you.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: You do not permit him to.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes. That's true, it's the truth for the moment being, but if ... you see, tonight we have had them shooting, they have shot at, at the uncle's windows ... they have had a burst fired at his window. These are now some trial actions, adaptations, etc. So that what is, what is, should be good to be done is to do things very quickly.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: We should take radical steps, and speed up things. It's a completely clear thing.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Take radical steps and speed things up, and we shall see if the European Community is going to fulfil their guarantees, if they are going to stop that violence and if they are going to suspend their decisions.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Is the issue in connection with Serbian ¹³³²³ violence in Croatia, is that the condition?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Everything is inside, any violence must be stopped.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes. Yes. Well, I think it would be necessary to sit, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, we from here, Milan from down there, and, if needed, Momir from down there, and, I don't know, sit for an hour or two, till...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: The best is tomorrow.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Nikola would like to come, as well.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: The best would be tomorrow.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We can stop. We can stop here. Thank you.

Q. Witness, who -- do you recognise the voices?

A. Yes, I do. Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic.

Q. From the contents of what you heard and what you have in front of you, can you say at what time this conversation took place?

A. At the beginning of July, before the 8th of July, in 1991.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because they're referring to the -- to suspending of the decisions of Croatia and Slovenia to secede for three months, and the involvement of international mediators in the matter.

Q. Mr. Milosevic is speaking, and we heard here that radical changes -- to be correct here: "I think that some things should be radically changed now." What was discussed -- what, if any, radical steps were discussed at that time? Do you know? ¹³³²⁴

A. Actually, to force Croatia and Slovenia to leave Yugoslavia, and once they leave, what remains should be the new state, the new Yugoslavia that Slobodan Milosevic was making.

Q. Was this discussed at that time?

A. It was discussed, in various ways, yes, at that time.

Q. There is also the reference of Mr. Radovan Karadzic saying: "...the issue in connection with Serbian violence in Croatia ..." and he says: "Is that the condition?" What is -- was there a condition that the Serbian violence in Croatia has to stop; and if so, whose condition was that?

A. The European Community set the condition that hostilities should cease and a political agreement be reached in three months' time on the restructuring of Yugoslavia.

Q. Mr. Milosevic then says: "Everything is inside, any violence must be stopped." Did he take measures? Did he take steps to stop the violence in the -- in Croatia?

A. No.

Q. Did the violence continue, the violence from the Serbian side, that is?

A. Yes, provocations and armed attacks continued.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session for one question, please, Your Honour.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³²⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next is tab 22, and I have marked a ¹³³²⁶ passage for the witness, and also a passage to be put on the ELMO. It is tab 22. It's on the first page. And there is a passage in there --

Q. First of all, did you listen to a conversation between Radovan Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic where they speak about Wijnaendts' visit, a visit?

A. I did.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have to go into private session. I just see that it cannot be discussed in the open.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. And now I will quote Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, and he says: "And he told me yesterday that when he had been in that place over there, they had shown him that the effects had been particularly disastrous where they had been attacked by some Serbs, and so on. He saw big craters. I don't know ... from these shells, and so on. I don't believe they showed him everything that those Martic's forces had done, ¹³³²⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³²⁸ but probably that they themselves had done and then made it seem as if it were that."

Sir, in the beginning of this transcript, we see the name Gospic mentioned. What had happened in Gospic that was shown to Mr. Wijnaendts and Mr. Milosevic is referring to?

A. There was fighting around Gospic between Serbian forces, which were attacking Gospic, intending to gain control over eastern Gospic, and forces of the Croatian government that were defending Gospic.

Q. Had Martic's forces done disastrous things?

A. Yes.

Q. What? Can you be more specific?

A. Mortar fire was used.

Q. Against civilian targets or just against the army?

A. I didn't have precise insight into what was happening on the ground, but as a rule, targets -- were targeted non-selectively.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I would like to go now further in this intercept and to the next marked page. Your Honour, it's on page 3, on the -- actually, on top of the page, and I would like to quote:

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That, probably, wasn't done by Serbs, but by this lot. So, he should absolutely, independently of that conversation of theirs for which he should, implying that he doesn't know of it, point out the consequences in Gospic.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right. I'll ring him now. I think that he's not enough ... he is a bit inflexible. He is not enough, er, enough flexible and wise to do so. Yes, he ... he has that minor flaw and he ¹³³²⁹ doesn't understand that you have to play the game when they set things up in that way. This lot are great masters of that.

JUDGE MAY: We can't find this passage.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's on page 3, and it's on the ELMO.

JUDGE KWON: Page 2.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's page 2?

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have a slightly older version of it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have it now.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's on the ELMO also now, in the middle, actually. Yes. Stop. Stop. It's right there. And I was reading -- and now it's Mr. Milosevic: "That's why I'm telling you. It should be counterbalanced in a way, that ... his impression now that that lot did something in Gospic, caused great destruction, and so on. He should also tell him, they did this and that over there." I have to go for one question into private session related to this sector.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³³⁰

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. So Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Karadzic asked what -- in reference to Kostajnica, what had happened in Kostajnica at that point in time? And we are talking about September 1991.

A. There was fighting between the forces of the Yugoslav People's ¹³³³¹ Army and the Serbian forces that were endeavouring to capture Kostajnica, that was being held by the forces of the government of Croatia.

Q. And a little bit further down in the text, Mr. Karadzic asks:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Okucani hasn't been taken, has it?" And Mr. Milosevic answers:

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: The results were good up there. Very good results up there, very good. We'll talk later, we can't now over the phone. There were all kinds of things there.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I'm afraid that, that ... the army has retreated over there, and I'm afraid that they'll fail to keep Okucani.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, I'll see what the situation is like.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: It mustn't happen. I think that Joca has assessed it properly. That's the spine! That's the spine! When you control that, you control the road to Pakrac and everything. What had happened at that time, if anything, in Okucani?

A. There was fighting around Okucani.

Q. And this Joca mentioned here, who is that? Do you know that?

A. Stanisic.

Q. Was this a nickname he was referred to?

A. Yes. It was a name of endearment for close associates.

Q. And I would like to go down now to actually the last page. That's page 5 in the English, and I assume it's also in the Serbian, the last page. And there is another reference to Jovica, and it says here Radovan Karadzic says:

"Okay, if you can. This Aca was brilliant in all of this, but ¹³³³² it's necessary now just to -- I think that Jovica has assessed it wonderfully. We mustn't ... because then they can bargain more easily and in a different way. We must hold that road to Pakrac and all of that." First of all, who is Aca who was brilliant?

A. Aca Vasiljevic.

Q. How do you know that? What did he do in relation to Okucani?

A. I don't know exactly, but he was the head of military security. He was mentioned also in the events surrounding Martic.

Q. And here this reference to Jovica?

A. Those are two men who had information about combat activities. They were heads of services that were involved.

Q. What was the importance of the road to Pakrac, if anything? Do you know?

A. Yes. It was important for the Serbs because it linked the territory of Western Slavonia with Serb territories in Bosnia and Yugoslavia, or Serbia, rather.

Q. Thank you. We can now turn to the next intercept, and it's tab 22. And I also do not intend --

JUDGE MAY: We just dealt with 22.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry. 21. 21. Tab 21. And I again do not intend to have it played but just discuss one section with the witness. And the section I would like to discuss is on page 10, starting on page 10, the last line, and it's going over into page 11.

Q. Witness, first of all, did you -- looking at this transcript, did you have -- did you listen in to a conversation between Slobodan Milosevic ¹³³³³ and Radovan Karadzic --

A. Yes.

Q. -- on the 9th of August, 1991? And I quote now from page 10:

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: No one fights on the borders of Croatia.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To the contrary...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Inside.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: There, inside Croatia, on the edges of the Serbian territories.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes. Are ... are ... the positions such that this would be suitable if it was done, right?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I think they almost are.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Almost? A little bit up there, Petrinja and Sisak?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Almost like there, there is no, nothing else, no ... any greater difference.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes. They should put it naturally, the sooner the better. If Europe is in a hurry to finish the things, there you go. Let them finish the things.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes, yes. So, let us start slowly, brother, working, and later on we go for a summer holiday, right?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, at what time was this conversation made, and what was ongoing at that time on the international level? Do you know?

A. At the beginning of August 1991, the European Community had ¹³³³⁴ initiated negotiations on a political settlement for Yugoslavia. So this was a follow-up of the activities of the European Community of July 1991. It was a follow-up to those activities.

Q. And there is this reference to fighting inside, on the edges of the Serbian territories, and there's also the remark -- the question of Radovan Karadzic in relation to Petrinja and Sisak. What was happening there at that time?

A. There was fighting around Petrinja and Sisak.

Q. Between whom?

A. On the one side, the JNA garrison from Petrinja and Serb volunteer units; and on the other, the forces of the government of Croatia.

Q. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are now going to tab 39, and that's actually an intercept that will be played partly. And in relation to -- oh, sorry. Sorry. I think we have already played this one.

JUDGE KWON: I don't think so.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, we haven't. Sorry. 39. And we will play -- in the English translation it will be page 3, starting right in the middle, with the name "Zulfikar was there..." And we will play it until page 5, the first -- the fourth line from the top, ending with: "Yes, yes. Fine. He is here in 'Intercontinental.'" That's the part that we are going to play. And for the technical booth, it's track 5.

[Intercept played]

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Zulfikar was here, he said he would put it on Television Sarajevo, if they would want to broadcast his show, this Kadic ¹³³³⁵ was stating that volunteers from Bosnia were raping the Muslim women, setting the houses on fire, et cetera, they said all that on TV, and he said they wanted to start a war in BiH.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: It is over, he started the war, here, I have them here, in front of me, the faxes that Doko sent, by his authorisation, they are transferring all the conscripts that had not been deployed to the reserve forces of the police, actually, who would know if they were deployed or not, since they did not give the records to the army. They are, they are making, today, on 23 September, they started making a state army.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes, yes.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: And I informed the Main Staff about it, Acic was not there, but I told it to the duty officer, we now have to, I don't know whether to advise our people to respond or not to respond.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To respond, by all means, by all means, because they will clash with the army.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: And then you will have the army on one side and those on others on the other.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Respond, by all means, as there is nobody but the army.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: No, no. To respond to the police reserve forces, that is what I'm asking you.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Who? Ours? ¹³³³⁶

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: No way, brother.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, no, but if they respond, they will get the weapons, to, and they will not be able to...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I know, but they have to respond to the army and, and...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Fine. They're responding to the army. The response here is not that bad.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, I know, but look what they're doing. There are all kinds of instigators here, and did you see what Martic said yesterday, here, for Draskovic?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes. I saw, he let us know.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: It should also come from people, similarly. Here, SPS? He did say something, not about Draskovic, but about this...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: We had it the other day also. I read it to you. I see they corrected it slightly in politics, but fine. It is...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Fine. But, do it again today, this regarding ... in the line of what Martic said, and to absolutely support the army.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Right. Did you ... did you see what Biljana and Nikola did?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I haven't seen it yet.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, it was sent to Mira. Please, let them, let them...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: It has been up to now, BBC was, then ... this ¹³³³⁷ Adil came by to say, to say a few words...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Can Aco do that for him, no?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, I hope he can. Here, we will see now. Is this dossier related to him?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes. To him there.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To Aliju?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: No, not to Sabic.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To Sabic. Yes.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes, yes. I hope it is possible, I...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Let them, let the two of them make ... let Aco immediately make contact with him directly. It will be for the best.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes, yes, fine. He is here in the "Intercontinental." Then we will see.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

Q. Witness, which -- do you recognise the voices?

A. Yes. Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic.

Q. Can you say when -- from the contents of this conversation, can you say when it took place?

A. It took place when the mobilisation was stepped up in Serbia, when the opposition protested and when Vuk Draskovic was criticised, saying that he was opposed to the mobilisation.

Q. And when was that? When did that take place?

A. In September 1991.

Q. There is a reference made to Martic, that he actually -- what -- ¹³³³⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³³⁹ that he said something about Draskovic. Do you recall whether Martic at that time made speeches against Vuk Draskovic?

A. Yes. Yes, he did make statements.

Q. What did he say?

A. I don't know exactly, but generally speaking, he criticised him.

Q. Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic speak about mobilisation of Bosnian forces. Are you aware that at that time also mobilisation took place in Bosnia in September 1991? Do you know anything about that?

A. Yes, I do, for the area of Bosanska Krajina.

Q. Yes. What do you know?

A. That people were mobilised into the Banja Luka Corps of the JNA.

Q. Why is it important to -- that the people get mobilised into the army and not the reserve police? Can you explain that?

A. The army was under the authority of Belgrade, or rather, Slobodan Milosevic, and the Yugoslav state presidency, and the police force was under the authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina of Alija Izetbegovic.

Q. And there is also mentioning again of Aco, twice, actually. Who is that?

A. Aco Vasiljevic. That's the only Aco I know.

Q. A little bit further down from the text that we actually heard, there is a mentioning on that same page, actually, there is mentioned Dubica. Mr. Karadzic says -- it's on page 5, Your Honours, on the second-last line: "Yes, yes. I instructed them in Krajina to see that. It is something in Dubica, some partisan follies. They are now fiddling about the five pointed star about foolish things that Dubica was a ¹³³⁴⁰ partisan town now it will not be partisan."

What Dubica is he talking about?

A. Bosanska Dubica.

Q. Yes. Thank you. That finishes this tab, and now we go to tab 31, and it is also a conversation that we have to play.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And, Your Honours, for your orientation, we play from page 2, bottom line, when actually two people are starting to speak while others were ahead of that, and we play it until the very end. And for the technical booth, it's track 7.

[Intercept played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Hello.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Radovan.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I spoke to the highest place.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Please, you need to understand this, because as they, I don't have ... I cannot explain everything.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: It's of strategic importance for the future RAM, you know what RAM is?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, I know, I know everything.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That the Banja Luka group is ready and mobile.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right. ¹³³⁴¹

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: There is why you must first make sure that it is able and mobile and that it has no problems. And secondly, all in one hour call Uzelac and invite him to an agreement at the highest level.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: All the additional people that you can provide.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That they need to stay and keep their houses and the territory and block those centres of the HDZ, et cetera. They should be armed. They should be provided with everything. We shall fly the helicopters in and all that ...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Excellent. I also ask you to...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Accordingly, I ask you to personally regulate one and two. And this other matter, Kupres, is very important.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: And the third I told you, the rally, it is very important because of the international community.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, that's under way. But tell me, can we arrange the same thing, that they give me back the armament of the TO in Sipovo and Mrkonjic.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That's a small matter.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right. Let them arm them there. Here I ... we've got 170 ready in Mrkonjic and 150 in Sipovo and they are ready to go to Kupres.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Is Uzelac also in charge of that? ¹³³⁴²

RADOVAN KARADZIC: No, no, this, er, I think that it is him himself yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Tell him that, brother, no problems.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: We cannot discuss every small detail.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right, all right these 150 and 170 shall go to Kupres, and there we've got 750 people...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes. It is also important for us that this battalion, which was mobilised by the army, is in Kupres and that everything be as it should be.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: It will be, but if they receive this. Those who stay under their command, because Kupres is terribly ... that's 50-50 and the Serbs suffered horribly there during the war.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Let me tell you something. Even this crazy Seselj fucked the opposition yesterday.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I saw. I heard.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: You know what he told them? He said, "Did you decide to attack the JNA now when the JNA needs to defend the Serb people?"

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes that's...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That says the one with the tie of a Zimmerman's waiter.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Fucking hell.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes. ¹³³⁴³

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: It's even clear to him...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Clear, clear, certainly.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: And it's not clear to these traitors.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I saw it, I saw.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yesterday in direct contact with Mesic.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Have you got a number for Uzelac by any chance?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I don't but you shall find it.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Let them find it for you. And please tell him that I wish to secure a maximum political support...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Is he going to accept more of our boys if he needs them or just the ones that already...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: He will receive them if needed. But you give him as many as you judge necessary should stay there. Everything shall be transported for them in the helicopters so they've got everything, so that they stay and guard.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right, agreed.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Accordingly you've got everything.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Agreed.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: But now it is to be or not to be concerning Krajina because they wish to cut off Krajina.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: They don't want to go to Knin because many would get killed, but they do want to come from behind. ¹³³⁴⁴

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes now we shall...

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: ...in the JNA, that shan't stop them there. How is it going to stop them with the armour alone if there is no brigade?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: All right, agreed. Everything will be all right.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: What I mean now is, as they say, war and this is one of the sides.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: There are no problems whatsoever.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Please take care of it.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Only if the numbers work, I think it shall be completed.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: You've got everything? Everything must work.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I will, I will. All right. Talk to you, do call again.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, did you recognise the voices of the two persons speaking?

A. Yes. Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic were the people having a conversation.

Q. And they are speaking about a person, Uzelac. Who is that?

A. General Nikola Uzelac, Commander of the Banja Luka Corps. Nikola Uzelac, the big one.

Q. From the contents, could you say when this conversation took place and what was actually happening on the ground at that time? ¹³³⁴⁵

A. Well, in the middle of the war in 1991. The month was July, before the beginning of August, that is.

Q. What was happening at that time on the ground involving Uzelac, Knin, Krajina? Can you explain what the two men are talking about?

A. About collecting people together to form the Banja Luka Corps.

Q. And how do you know that? What did you observe yourself at that time?

A. Well, I was present at a meeting between Karadzic and Uzelac.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we go into private session briefly?

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁴⁶

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next tab, the intercept is number 40, and it is -- I do not intend to have that played, just I have highlighted a few sections, and the first highlighted section is on page 7 of the English, and it's actually on the bottom of the page and also on the -- it goes over into the following page on top. Can we have it on the ELMO?

Q. And, Witness, it's actually the first marked part in your Serbian script.

Mr. Karadzic says:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Uh-huh, this Minister over here and the deputy of ours were at the General Staff. Some kind of agreement was made for the police ... for MUP and army to maintain the order down there in the ¹³³⁴⁷ Neretva valley. And reserves should be situated in Bileca and in Trebinje at the barracks. I think that's not a bad idea?

And Mr. Milosevic:

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, it's not, especially for Trebinje and Bileca as well.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yeah, it's all close to Neretva, and people will be safer. They will be at the barracks. That's a different thing, you know.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: That is OK, but up there is very important. Krajina, that's very important.

Witness, first of all, did you listen to this conversation during your talks with the Prosecutor here in The Hague, and, if so, did you recognise who was speaking?

A. Yes, I did. I listened to it. It was a conversation between Karadzic and Milosevic.

Q. And what I just quoted to you, what -- what is the -- what is the background of this conversation about Bileca, Trebinje, the Neretva valley, and Krajina?

A. In the context of mobilisation and putting up the reservists from Serbia in the area.

Q. Can you be a little bit more precise? What was going on at that time? And can you tell us, first of all, at what time did this conversation take place?

A. In September 1991. That's when the conversation probably took place, which was the period when there was a mass mobilisation in Serbia, ¹³³⁴⁸ and the reservists who had been mobilised, the units, were sent towards Krajina via Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. The Neretva valley, is that an important strategic valley for -- in relation to the Krajina?

A. No. No. Not in relation to Krajina but in relation to Dubrovnik and a confrontation there. That is where Serbian and Croatian territories meet in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as Karadzic explained.

Q. We can now go to the next highlighted section. And the reference for Your Honours, it's on page 10. It starts actually in the middle, in the middle of this page with Mr. Milosevic saying, "Be careful..." and it ends actually on the next page.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Be careful, can you secure the normal passage of units through Bosnia with this part, this one from Serbia? Towards, towards, for example, Krajina?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Towards Krajina?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, I think we will be able to do it.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Come, concentrate on this question, because the answer to this question is very important to me.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I think we will be able, I mean, on the Doboj line, and then there.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Well, check that, and then we will see. Because I see that these, these have problems, these people to, to...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: To have them transferred?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To have them transferred, even to have ¹³³⁴⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³⁵⁰ medicine, food transferred.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: All that needs help there, those people there.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: I think we can ensure that, there will be no problems.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Yes, that is...

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Because we will secure one of the lines and I will notify, I mean.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Good, notify. But notify in a safe way.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Right.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Good, just so we know in advance, so. Torbavica informed me yesterday night at 12.00 that he will be setting off at 04.00 and then I, we secure the first convoy, and then four got lost. Do you know about convoys through -- from Serbia through Bosnia to the Krajina? Do you know of such convoys?

A. They were brigades, JNA brigades.

Q. From where did they come and where did they go at that time?

A. The brigades were coming from, as far as I know, Vojvodina province, Sabac, Loznica, and other areas.

Q. And where were they going?

A. As far as I know, some of those units were deployed in Banija and Kordun, Lika, and some of the others elsewhere.

Q. And how do you know about these matters? ¹³³⁵¹

A. I had an insight from the field, on the ground.

Q. And there is also a person mentioned, Torbavica. Do you know who that is? That was actually in the last part that I read. Do you know who that is?

A. In this context, it could have been General Torbavica.

Q. General of what units and what position? Do you know?

A. A JNA General. I think he was commander of the Uzice Corps or, rather, some units which were in the region.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. We can now turn to the next tab, and it's also one I do not want to play. It's tab 15. And I have highlighted a few passages for the witness and to be put on the ELMO. And, Your Honours, it starts on page 3 of the English text, in the middle of the text after the references to Wijnaendts. After the references to Wijnaendts, Radovan Karadzic says:

RADOVAN KARADZIC: OK, what can be done here? Could Jovica do something about this?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: No, he cannot do anything.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Because, there he has those other, he, he, there, there he has a strong opposition among those smarter people.

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: To tell you the truth, I don't know what to do ... what, what is worth talking with them and I don't -- in what capacity can I support them when they are refusing to participate in the talks anyway?

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Yes, unbelievable. You know what would be good? It would be good if Jovica would invite ten or so, that ten or so, ¹³³⁵² to go there, smart people. I could also come to the meeting, and some things could be determined. They cannot do so, can they?

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Absolutely!

RADOVAN KARADZIC: There can't be, there can't be an opposition to force him. Not the one to relieve him from the office, but to force him.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁵³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. And I forgot to ask you, did you listen to the entire tape while you had your conversations with --

A. Yes.

Q. -- the Prosecutor, and did you recognise the voices of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic?

A. Yes, I did listen to the entire tape, and yes, I did recognise their voices.

Q. And at around what time did this conversation take place?

A. It means it was conducted around the 8th of October, 1991.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to turn now to tab 42, and it's also nothing to be played, and I have highlighted for the witness actually two parts. I'm just told that it's not highlighted, but it's easy to find.

For Your Honours, on the first page, on the first page, on the bottom, the last few sentences. ¹³³⁵⁴

Q. And, Witness, it should also be on your first page. There is a reference, when you put the first page on the ELMO, the translation, yes. Mr. Milosevic -- first of all, I have to ask you. Did you listen to this tape and did you recognise the voices?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And I quote first from the first page.

MR. MILOSEVIC: Well, it seems so. You know, he wants complete serenity and independence like Macedonia, fuck it. And Radovan says.

RADOVAN KARADZIC: Well, that's unbelievable. How will those people over there answer him? There's a large meeting of Montenegrins at the Sava Centre tomorrow.

Witness, seeing this quote, what -- what kind of a meeting was at the Sava Centre? Do you know that, and who wanted complete sovereignty they are talking about here?

A. It was about criticism of Momir Bulatovic and the campaign which Milosevic launched against him for him to change his position with respect to The Hague conference and the acceptance of Carrington's plan for Yugoslavia.

Q. How do you know that Mr. Milosevic launched a campaign to change Mr. Bulatovic's position? How do you know that?

A. I heard this personally from Milosevic. I heard this personally from Milosevic.

Q. Is that the occasion that you already talked about when he was complaining about Mr. Bulatovic? ¹³³⁵⁵

A. That's right. On the 20th of October, 1991.

Q. What did he actually say --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that what must be borne in mind is that something that is not contained in these conversations cannot be interpreted. If the names that the witness is mentioning are not in here, he cannot mention them. He cannot interpret them in the context of what it says here. I think that would be right. He recognised the voices, but he cannot interpret something about which we do have enough information here. Especially, he should not mention names that do not exist in this text.

JUDGE MAY: He says they do. I wonder really whether it takes us very much further. We have heard evidence about this. Do you want to refer to any other passages?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And actually, the witness had mentioned in relation to the Sava Centre a Montenegrin gathering. He concluded that the person talked about is -- but, yes, I would like to -- just one more quote here, and it's -- in the English text it's page 5, and it's --

JUDGE KWON: I think we've heard it already, page 5.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. I have it marked.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Thank you. I wasn't aware that I had already discussed this one. Thank you very much. ¹³³⁵⁶ The next tab -- the next one is tab 44, and it's also not to be played. I just would like to have the witness have a look at it.

Q. And on the first page, Mr. Milosevic -- first of all, did you listen to this tape during your conversation, and did you recognise the voices?

A. Yes, I did. I recognised the voices of Karadzic and Milosevic.

Q. We -- on the first page there is marked -- there are marked actually three different parts:

SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: The maps were shown to me yesterday. The whole Eastern Slavonia was placed on them; Western Slavonia was partly presented on them, just like an island that will be authorised by UN. After that Krajina without Knin, without Knin, without Obrovac, Benkovac, Donji Lapac...

Seeing this quote, do you know at what time this conversation took place and to which maps Mr. Milosevic is referring to? What maps were discussed at that time?

A. The discussion was on the 21st of November, 1991, and then it went on. It was the end of November. And this was regarding the maps of the Vance-Owen Plan.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I think the rest of the text speaks for itself, and we would not need to discuss it. The highlighted parts also speak for themselves. The witness has already described what was discussed with whom at that time.

The next tab is 45.

Q. Witness, did you listen in to this tape? ¹³³⁵⁷

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And we have to go into private session for this one.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁵⁸

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, tab 50, the first marked section. First of all, did you listen in to this conversation?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you recognise the voices?

A. Yes, I did. Karadzic and Dobrica Cosic.

Q. On -- in this marked passage, Mr. Karadzic refers to ecological data and cartographers "...have produced the fairest variant in which we have sixty-one point three per cent of the land." And then they discuss these figures further. Did Mr. Karadzic make those kind of arguments when discussing about the land that should be under Serb control? Did he make these kind of arguments?

A. I know about talks with the representatives of Franjo Tudjman and the Croatian government, that is to say between them and Karadzic and the representatives of the authorities of Republika Srpska. I also know of a conversation I already mentioned at Slobodan Milosevic's in this context. ¹³³⁵⁹

Q. Yes. And the next passage I have marked is on page 12. It's the top of page 12. Mr. Cosic and Mr. Karadzic speak about a removal of a person, and they speak about tomorrow.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we have to go into private session for this.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next series of intercepts I do not want to discuss or play with the witness in detail. I just want to ask him some general questions about intercepts that he heard in a certain context and only speak about a very few voices that are heard on these ¹³³⁶⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³⁶¹ intercepts and how he is familiar with these voices, because he had actually made this declaration reference to all of these intercepts and explained in this declaration whom he recognised, and I would just find out in relation to several of those intercepts mentioned in the declaration how he knows the voices.

JUDGE MAY: Well, that would be a suitable matter to deal with after the adjournment.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: We're on page 64, I take it, paragraph 319; is that right? You can tell us afterwards.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness only briefly the transcripts of the intercepted conversations 23, 25, and tab 2.

Q. The first one is an intercepted conversation between Karadzic and Grahovac of the 24th of June, 1991, Witness. And the second one is a conversation between Karadzic and Vukic from that same day, and the third one is a conversation between Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic of the 9th of July, 1991.

Did you have opportunity to listen in to these three conversations? ¹³³⁶²

A. Yes.

Q. In relation to --

JUDGE MAY: Yes?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 2? I have under tab 2 a conversation with Karadzic; tab 3, Karadzic, Cosic. I don't know what the point is.

JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with tab 2, Karadzic and Cosic. Tab 23. Was that the next one you had, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I had tab 23, tab 25, and tab 2.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. And tab 2 is an intercept between Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic, dated the 9th of July, 1991.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. I have that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, let's go on.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. The voice of -- how familiar are you with the voice of Mr. Grahovac? Do you know his voice and how?

A. Yes. We talked often.

Q. And this other person, Vukic, would you know who that is? The conversation Karadzic, Vukic.

A. Dr. Vukic from Banja Luka, president of the Municipal Board of the SDS in Banja Luka.

Q. Are you familiar with his voice?

A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about his voice. ¹³³⁶³

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session for one question, Your Honour.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. The other day, you also mentioned that despite the criticism against the unification of the two Krajinas, later on the -- Mr. Karadzic himself pursued that same aim, and in relation to that, I would like to put to the witness the exhibit -- tab 107 of Exhibit 352, and it's just for you to have a look at it and whether you can authenticate this document. It's the "Prijedor declaration on the Unification of the RSK and the RS," of the 31st of October, 1992. ¹³³⁶⁴

A. That's right.

Q. Yes. Thank you. And I would like to move now on with the intercepts.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for your orientation, Your Honour, the three intercepts we just mentioned in relation to the unification and this issue was paragraph 163 of the proofing summary, and we are now back on 319, where a lot of intercepts are actually listed.

Q. In relation to the intercepts listed under this paragraph, I would like to put to the witness just briefly the intercepts tab 4 and tab 5. Witness, these two intercepts are of -- are of unclear date. It's not given. But in both of these intercepts, reference is made to a referendum in Bosnia. Can you tell us from their contents on what -- at what time these conversations may have taken place giving these contents?

A. Beginning of November. The end of October -- no. November more probably, 1991, after the referendum was held when part of the MPs of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, those who were of Serb ethnicity, and the SDS, when they conducted this referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Yes. Thank you. I do not want to put the other exhibits to the witness except for these -- where I mentioned we haven't yet spoken about the names -- the voices of these people.

Did you listen in to an intercept between Karadzic and Vucurevic? And that would be tab 32.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Are you -- how are you familiar, if at all, with the voice of Mr. Vucurevic? ¹³³⁶⁵

A. Yes. Although I met him only once or two or three times, but I listened to his speeches. He has such a characteristic voice that one has to recognise it.

Q. What is characteristic about the voice of Mr. Vucurevic?

A. Well, the intonation, the depth, the mode of speech, the accent a very special type of voice.

Q. What kind of an accent does he have?

A. Herzegovinian.

Q. We have also intercepts with the voice of -- it's actually tab 41 is an intercept between Karadzic and Jovic, and I would like to know from you how familiar you are with the voice of Mr. Jovic and whether you are able to recognise his voice?

A. Yes. I know it well.

Q. And how?

A. From many personal contacts and meetings I had with him, I know him very well.

Q. We have also one intercept. It's tab 46. One intercept between Mr. Karadzic and Mrs. Plavsic, Biljana Plavsic. Did you listen into this intercept as well, and did you recognise the voices?

A. I did. I recognised both the voices of Karadzic and Plavsic.

Q. How familiar are you with Mrs. Plavsic's voice? How do you know it?

A. I have frequently had meetings with her in person.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I do not think that I have to put now all the other intercepts with Karadzic in front of the witness. I ¹³³⁶⁶ think they should be accepted in the form of the declaration, because I would not need to discuss the contents.

JUDGE MAY: Well, the matter is still, of course, for the Chamber to decide whether they'll be admitted or not. They have been marked for identification, but of course, there is no need for this witness to go through them.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I will now continue with paragraph 320 in the proofing summary and turn to the military formations on the ground in the SAO Krajina, in particular in the regions where crimes were committed according to the indictment against Mr. Milosevic.

Q. The northern part of the SAO Krajina, in particular the region of Kostajnica and Korenica, did they belong to the 5th Military District of the JNA with headquarters in Zagreb?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And who was the commander of the 5th Military District?

A. I don't know exactly. I think it was General Raseta. He was either the commander or deputy commander.

Q. Which JNA corps covered these regions?

A. The Zagreb Corps and the Rijeka Corps.

Q. The Rijeka Corps, did they also -- did they also belong to the 5th Military District?

A. I think they did. They were between the Military Naval District and the 5th Military District. I'm not sure, though, whether they were the 5th District or the Military Naval District. ¹³³⁶⁷

Q. In this region of -- in this region that I just mentioned, Kostajnica and Korenica, were there any military barracks, and if so, where were they and --

A. I know of the JNA barracks in Petrinja, the JNA barracks in Karlovac, the military training ground for the artillery close to Slunj.

Q. Do you know who was the commander of this artillery training ground in Slunj? During the events, that is, summer of 1991, autumn 1991.

A. I know of Colonel Cedomir Bulat.

Q. How -- what is -- how do you know him and his position?

A. I know. I was told by the President of the municipality of Slunj at the end of November 1991 that Colonel Cedomir Bulat had taken control of Slunj, which until then had been under the control of the forces of the Croatian government.

Q. Mr. Bulat, was he a JNA officer, and if so, what rank did he have?

A. That's right. He was a colonel.

Q. Yes. And who was the commander in Petrinja?

A. For a time it was Slobodan Tarbuk, a colonel.

Q. In which time was he the commander?

A. At the time of the fighting in 1991.

Q. The southern part of the SAO with Knin, Benkovac, was it part of the JNA coastal district with headquarters in Split?

A. That's right.

Q. Who was the commander of the -- this coastal district? ¹³³⁶⁸

A. Admiral Mile Kandic.

Q. And which corps covered this region? Which JNA corps?

A. The 9th Corps of the JNA, the Knin Corps.

Q. You have already mentioned General Vukovic being the commander. From what time onwards was he the commander?

A. Sometime around the mid of September 1991.

Q. Do you know how the Knin Corps commander received his orders? Did he receive it through Split, or otherwise?

A. General Vukovic received orders from the General Staff in Belgrade.

Q. How do you know that? And if necessary, we can go into private session. Private session?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, Your Honour.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁶⁹ Page 13369 - redacted - private session

¹³³⁷⁰

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness --

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it would be, in my opinion, very helpful if you put into a form of a chart what this witness had said in relation to the military formation of JNA, or something like that. And you may name it as a chain of command or formation of military thing. Before -- and have this witness confirm before he leaves here.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, we can do that, but I'm not sure that we can really manage it until Monday. We will try our best to do that, but would it also be possible to do that in re-direct? Would you allow for that, if re-direct is necessary? Because it's a rather complex matter.

JUDGE KWON: Yes, whatever will be convenient for you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Witness, we have already discussed the formation of the TO and the problems that existed there. In relation to the formations on the ground, ¹³³⁷¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³⁷² I would like to put to you just a few additional documents that we have so far not addressed. The first one is tab 112 of binder 352, in relation to the TO and the RSK, the RSK army. And I have here a military document from the Supreme Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia Personnel Department of the 29th of April, 1994, to the Forward Section of the RSK, in relation to temporary assignment of work of civil persons. And I would -- I would like to know from you: Where was the Forward Section of the RSK army? Do you know where it was situated?

A. It was in the representative offices of the RSK in Belgrade. That was the Advance Department of the Ministry of Defence of RSK.

Q. And looking at the document and the person signing this document, the stamps and the header, is this -- can you say anything about the authenticity of this document?

A. On the basis of the letterhead and the stamp, I can say that it is authentic, and that is confirmed by the next document.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: So another document goes with it, and that's actually, Your Honour, tab 113.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the second page of this document.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. There is a second page to it. Yes.

Q. What does this second page confirm?

A. It confirms the authenticity of the document we are discussing, its content and the signatories.

Q. Witness, did you actually provide these two documents to the ¹³³⁷³ Prosecution during your conversations here in The Hague?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. The person, Major General Dusan Zoric, who was he?

A. Head of the personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. And this document, is there actually a transfer facilitated from a person from the RSK army to the VJ?

A. That's right.

Q. Which person, please?

A. The document under number 3.

Q. So that's Dijana Kovacevic? Is that the person had who was actually working for the RSK and was then transferred to the VJ?

A. That's right.

Q. Were the authorities of the RSK army, were they actually asked when such transfers were facilitated, or did they just have to accept it?

A. They accepted it, or they agreed with it.

Q. So my question: Were they asked in advance? When such transfers were ordered, were the authorities in RSK army, were they asked?

A. No. This went according to order, and the person was informed.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And with the help of the usher, I would put to the witness now tab 113, or has he already -- he has it already.

Q. Witness, this is now a document from the 18th Corps Command of the 17th of March, 1994, regulating the status of military recruits, and it is signed by commander Colonel Lazo Babic, and it is a stamp from the military post Okucane.

This document, is it -- looking at the header, the stamp, and the ¹³³⁷⁴ signature, is that a authentic document?

A. Yes. It doesn't have a signature, but there's the name written, and an authentic stamp and heading. And that person, as such, existed over there with that position, in that position.

JUDGE MAY: Do you want to say something, Mr. Milosevic? If so, we can't hear it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was saying that tab 11, but which binder? It's not in this one.

JUDGE MAY: 352, it's 111.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. It's actually 113.

JUDGE MAY: Sorry. 113, yes. We've dealt with 111.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 113.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment while the accused finds it. Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, this document relates to the -- actually, the status of military recruits, and from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Were they recruits from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia doing their service in the army of the RSK?

A. They were.

Q. Was this a practice, that recruits from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did their service in the RSK, and was that also the practice the other way around?

A. Yes, and the other way around.

Q. From -- in which time periods was this a practice? ¹³³⁷⁵

A. Throughout the period of existence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. And how was this organised?

A. Through the competent administrations of the Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, that is, through the administration of the army of Yugoslavia that was in charge of this.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Another exhibit I would like to put to the witness is tab 152 from that same binder of exhibits, 352, and it's an order by Colonel General Zivota Panic.

I have French translation now. It's obviously not my ...

JUDGE MAY: Go on.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, looking at the header and the stamp on the document, and also the signature, can you comment on the authenticity of this document?

A. It is an authentic document, but I don't recognise the signature of Zivota Panic.

Q. Was he in the position given in the document, that is, Chief of Staff of the Yugoslav army at that time, that is, in -- on the 27th of January, 1993?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that document also referring to the practice of acceptance and initiating of conscript soldiers into the army of the RSK?

A. That's right.

Q. Yesterday, sir, you mentioned that the RSK army was not an independent army, and you mentioned also that Mr. Milosevic appointed its ¹³³⁷⁶ leading officers. In relation to this remark of yours, did you mean that he officially appointed the leading officers, or in which way did he deal with the appointment of officers?

A. He decided de facto, but officially it was implemented by the competent bodies, such as the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, or the Presidency, while the SFRY was in existence, or rather, the Supreme Council of Defence when it became the FRY.

Q. In relation to materiel supplies, I would like to put to you the Exhibits 153 -- tab 153, Exhibit 352.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you go on, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, may I ask the witness whether he has examples of officers so appointed by Mr. Milosevic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mile Mrksic, for instance, the last commander. I'm sorry. I haven't said everything. Officially, this was implemented also by the bodies of the Republic of Srpska Krajina and the competent bodies of the Army of Yugoslavia. One example of that is General Mile Mrksic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What you mean, then, is that he made the appointment and it was officially confirmed by the proper authority?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He really decided, and de facto decided, who would be the commander, and the authorities would confirm that through documents, procedurally.

JUDGE ROBINSON: How would you know this?

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁷⁷

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we had actually discussed this situation, and several other situations of that kind, when we went through the meetings that took place with Mr. Milosevic, and he -- the witness gave some examples where those matters were discussed and decided.

Q. Witness, in relation to materiel supplies, I would like to put to you the document tab 153. It's a request of the Ministry of Defence of the RSK, of the 8th of April 1993, to the Chief of General Staff of the VJ, for Orkan rockets and other rockets, and it is signed by Deputy Minister Lieutenant Colonel Dusko Babic. And I would like you -- I would like you to comment on the authenticity in relation to the header, the stamp, and the signature.

A. Yes, it's authentic, only I can't recognise the signature. Everything else is authentic.

Q. Did the RSK army receive Orkan rockets, for instance, Orkan rockets, or the unguided rockets, from the VJ? Do you know that?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. And how did you get knowledge of this?

A. I know about Orkan from people who manned Orkan or had connections with it, and I also heard of these other rockets.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like now to put to the witness the Exhibit 157, and it's -- sorry, the tab 157 from that same exhibit, and it refers to an order by Commander Colonel Milan Celeketic, of the 23rd of December, 1993, in relation to how materials should be received and requested from the VJ.

And it says here: ¹³³⁷⁸ "Requests to the VJ for MS replenishment of the units are to be sent directly to the Corps Command. I strictly forbid subordinate commands and individuals to directly contact the General Staff of the VJ or the VJ units in order to secure MS."

Q. Was there a practice at that time, in December 1993, that units would send their request directly to the VJ, and is that a reason for this order? Do you know?

A. Yes, I heard that the situation in the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina was chaotic at the time, and this is the result of that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like now to put to the witness the tab 155 of that same exhibit. It is a request for materiel to form a military naval fleet, of the 19th of September. And the year is actually left open, but in the document as such, it is a meeting -- is referred to a meeting held on the 9th of September, 1994.

Q. Witness, first of all, in relation to authenticity, do you recognise the header, the stamp, and the signature of General Celeketic?

A. Yes, the heading and stamp. Celeketic was indeed the commander at that time.

Q. Witness, do you know anything about a meeting held on the 9th of September, 1994 in relation to a river force? Are you aware of this meeting that is mentioned here in this document?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether such a river -- military naval fleet was then actually founded and equipped?

A. I don't know about any of that. ¹³³⁷⁹

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next document is tab 156. It's a letter from the RSK Cabinet of the President to the President of Serbia.

Q. Is this -- looking at the header, the stamp, and the signature, is this Goran Hadzic's signature? Is that the stamp used at that time and the head of the letter?

A. Yes, that is the stamp. And the signature resembles it. I'm not quite sure whether it is.

Q. Mr. Hadzic in this letter is asking for military personnel, especially for junior officers, performing duties of commanders and commandants, and also for military judges and prosecutors. Are you aware that this was actually requested at that time?

A. I don't know about the request, but I do know that at that time, or after that time, people did come in, officers did come in, to set up military courts and prosecutors' offices. A man did come.

Q. And finally, tab 159. It's a report of the RSK Ministry of Defence, dated the 7th of February, 1995, in relation to materiel, technical support, from the FRY and the Serbian Republic. Do you know this report, and can you say anything about its authenticity, looking at the format of this report and the header, stamp, and signature?

A. There's no stamp on signature, but it's a report that I know about.

Q. Yes. Who made this report?

A. The Minister of Defence of the RSK, Colonel Rade Tanjga.

Q. And it refers to specific means that were obtained. And the ¹³³⁸⁰ figures in this report, do they correspond with your memory of matters?

A. Yes, more or less. A thousand tonnes. Well, I can't quite remember now exactly what the quantity was. According to this, that's the figure.

Q. Thank you. And the next document is tab 122. It's an order to form the headquarters and units of the Territorial Defence of the municipalities of the SAO Krajina, from the 21st of August, 1991. Do you remember that this decision was made at that time?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. The next is tab 116. It's an order establishing -- establishments of Territorial Defence staff and units of the SAO Krajina, from the 21st of August, 1991. Was such a decision made?

A. This is the same document. Yes. This is an identical document.

Q. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you for this advice. Tab 120, then, please. It's a document in relation to the creation of operative zones. And the 1st Operative Zone is Dalmatinsko-Licka, with the municipalities of Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac, Donji Lapac and Korenica. The 2nd Operative Zone is Kordun, with Slunj in it. And the 3rd Operative Zone is Dvor na Uni, Glina, Kostajnica, Petrinja and Sisak. Do you recall who were the commanders in these three zones? Do you know? Do you recall that?

A. The civilian commander should have been the prime minister of the government of SAO Krajina. At the end of September, the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina was set up, and it began functioning at the beginning of October. The commander was General Ilija Djujic. ¹³³⁸¹

Q. Let me interrupt you. This we have already discussed. I was asking you for the commanders of the 1st Operative Zone, the level below the, head. The level below the Main Staff. Do you know who was the commander in the region of the 1st Operative Zone?

A. They were municipal staffs of Territorial Defence and units subordinate to the municipal staffs.

Q. And between the Main Staff and those municipal staffs, was there another layer of command? Was there a 1st Operative Zone commander or 2nd Operative Zone commander and 3rd Operative Zone Commander?

A. First of all, it should have been the commander of the Main Staff of the TO of SAO Krajina, and the 2nd and 3rd zones were changeable, variable. At the end, it was Colonel Vujaklija who was commander of the 2nd and 3rd, a JNA officer.

Q. In this context there is yet another document, tab 127 of that same exhibit, and it relates, actually, to the Unified Territorial Defence Staff is formed for the 2nd and 3rd Operative Zone. And that is this person that you just mentioned, Vujaklija, then?

A. This is an order on the unification of the zones into one zone.

Q. Yes, and my question was: Was Mr. Vujaklija the commander of this combined zone?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And another document, tab 133. It's also in relation to the structure of the TO of the region Gracac, Donji Lapac, and Korenica, of the 5th of October, 1991. Is that correct?

A. That's right, yes. ¹³³⁸² ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³⁸³

Q. I would like to ask you now about a few specific corps or divisions that were in the regions of -- the region of Kostajnica, Petrinja, and Korenica. Was there a 7th Banija Division; and if so, what kind of unit was it and where did it operate?

A. The 7th Banija Division, yes.

Q. Where was it operating, and what kind of a division was it? I mean, was it TO or was it JNA?

A. It was a volunteer unit organised by the parallel structures which functioned in the Dvor na Uni, Kostajnica municipalities, and parts of Glina, Petrinja, and later on exclusively in the area of Dvor na Uni and Kostajnica.

Q. Who was its commander in autumn 1991?

A. Bogdan Vajagic.

Q. To whom was he subordinated?

A. Until the end of September 1991, the parallel structures had the command over him, and he was subordinated with the Petrinja garrison of the JNA. As of October, or rather, when the command was set up of the JNA Operative Group for Kordun and Banija, he was subordinated to that.

Q. And when you said "parallel structure," do you mean this Martic, Frenki group?

A. DB Serbia: Martic, Frenki, and the rest.

Q. What was the 6th Lika Division? Can you explain what kind of a unit that was and to which it was subordinated?

A. That was a JNA unit. In a sense, it was a volunteer unit, but nonetheless it was a JNA unit. And it was commanded by Savo Jurasovic, a ¹³³⁸⁴ colonel, who was a commanding officer in Gospic before that, a JNA officer. I don't know for how long.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to show the witness Exhibit 128. That's an order regarding the appointment of Djuro Vujaklija, commander of the TO forces of the 2nd and 3rd Operative Zone, from the 30th of September, 1991.

A. That's right, yes.

Q. The headquarters of Mr. Vujaklija, where were they?

A. In Vojnic.

Q. To whom did he report?

A. The command of the Operative Group of the JNA, Jasan Maric.

Q. And where was the headquarters of this operative group?

A. That was Samarica Hill, which means are the Kostajnica, Dvor, and Petrinja municipalities meet.

Q. Yes. And this 6th Lika Division that we just spoke about a moment earlier, was that in -- was that related to that same headquarters in Samarica, or where did it operate?

A. It operated in the Lika area. It had its headquarters by the Plitvice Lakes, at Mukinje.

Q. Witness, you have already mentioned at an earlier stage of your testimony the pattern of conduct that occurred, and you said already that you saw it happen in the Kostajnica region with -- and in Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin. Are they located in this region? And do you know when those villages were attacked and who actually attacked them? Which corps and which TO units? ¹³³⁸⁵

A. The fighting was started by the 7th Banija Volunteer Division, in the area of Dvor and Kostajnica. Later on, the Petrinja garrison of the JNA joined in. And later on these units -- the 7th Banija accepted being a TO unit but didn't place itself under the competent commands of the TO, up until the formation of the command of the operative group at Samarica, when it was subordinated. Then, in that same area, we saw the involvement of the Loznica Brigade, from Serbia. It was mobilised in the region of Sunj, towards Kostajnica. I don't know what the deployment of that unit was exactly. And the special police units forces of Krajina were active there as well.

Q. Witness, who was the overall commander during the attack on the villages Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin? Do you know that?

A. I don't know exactly when the attacks on these villages took place. The fighting around Kostajnica took place until the end of September. That means the 7th Banija and the Petrinja garrison of the JNA joined forces there up until that time.

Q. You have already mentioned that you -- that these villages were destroyed in a certain pattern. Did that happen during that fighting that you just mentioned, end of September, or at a later date?

A. I passed through those villages in November, or near the villages, at least, in mid-November 1991. And they had been destroyed after that fighting, that is to say, in those battles, up to the time when I passed by and saw them, before.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, when it's a convenient moment. We seem to be going on to another topic. ¹³³⁸⁶

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We are actually in the crime scenes. We are now actually already in the crime scenes, paragraph 337.

JUDGE MAY: It may be convenient to adjourn now and go on on Monday.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.