Milosevic Transcript 2002-11-25

¹³³⁸⁷

Monday, 25 November 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with some administrative matters first. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've had notice that the plenary will now take place on the 12th and the 13th of December, two of the original days which were fixed. It will not take place on the 11th, and therefore we shall sit that day, having in mind the time that's been lost. We will sit, of course, on the 18th, where we said we would have administrative matters. It may be that, if we get that far, there may be some evidence to be finished up, and closer to the time, we'll decide whether we'll sit that afternoon or not, but the parties should have that time available for sitting, if necessary.

Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

A. Good morning. Yes.

Q. Witness, you have already described the pattern of attacks that you saw occurring, and you have described the military formation present in particular regions, and I would like to discuss with you now what you ¹³³⁸⁸ can tell us about crimes occurring in particular places named in the indictment.

The first place I would like to turn to is the Kostajnica region, in particular, the regions Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin. On Friday you testified that fighting took place in this region until September 1991, and you also testified at an earlier point in time that you observed the fighting personally from the Bosnia side of the river. You also mentioned already that you travelled through the region in November 1991, on your way to Petrinja, and that you saw the Croatian villages or parts of villages where Croats had lived, that they were destroyed and the population gone.

You also already mentioned a military headquarters in Samarica, and my question to you is: What kind of a facility was it? Was it -- of what structure was it the headquarters?

A. At Samarica was the headquarters of the operative group for the JNA for Banija and Kordun, and this headquarters was the military command for the area. The 7th Banija Division had its headquarters up there as well, as did the special police units, or rather -- well, that's it.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we actually had managed to produce charts of the military formations on the ground at that time, and with the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness these charts now. And it has three pages: one showing the TO structure, one showing the JNA operational group that the witness just mentioned, and the third is actually a map that is just showing you where the various places are located. ¹³³⁸⁹

Q. First of all, Witness, if you look at the first chart. And I have to read it to you because it's in English language. It says: "Croatian operative zones of the TO SAO Krajina," and it simply shows the command structure, with the Prime Minister on top; the Main Staff of the TO, with first General Djujic, and then, of course, you have already said that changed; and then you have here the three operational zones: the first one for Dalmatia and Lika, the second one Slunj, and the third one Kostajnica, Petrinja, Sisak.

Is that correct? Is the chart correct in relation to the TO?

A. Underneath Slunj you should add Vojnic and Vrginmost. And underneath Petrinja, what should be added is Glina and Dvor na Uni. Otherwise, the rest is as it was here, was as it was in the chart.

Q. Yes. Thank you. And if you look at the second page, you have the JNA Operation Group Banija-Kordun-Lika after October 1991, and it shows here already the headquarters Samarica and its commander Jasan Maric. Then you have the various sections, that is the 2nd and 3rd Operative Zone of the TO with Colonel Vujaklija, JNA 5th Military District Units, then the 6th Lika Division, the Loznica Brigade from Serbia that you mentioned, and the Special Police Units Krajina, and then you also have here the Banija Division attached to the TO, and the unspecified JNA units attached to the 5th Military District.

Would that be correct?

A. It says "Operative Group Banija Kordun" here and "Lika." The commander was General Spiro Nikovic in the month of November. I don't know the dates, from when until when. ¹³³⁹⁰

Q. Yes.

A. And then I'm not sure whether Lika was under this Operative Group or whether it had its own command, the 6th Lika Division. But anyway, so there, that's what it was like. This is what it was like. And underneath the Loznica Brigade you should add the Sabac Brigade from Serbia and the Vojvodina Brigade from Serbia as well, and a paratrooper unit from Nis.

Q. The paratroop from Nis, did it have a particular -- did it have a particular name?

A. It was a special paratroop unit. I don't know what the name was exactly, whether that was its name or whether it had another one.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we put it on the overhead projector? Yes. Yes. Thank you. And the third, the third page. Can you please turn it around to the map. The third page. Can you please put the third page on the ELMO.

Q. It's actually a map showing the 5th Military District region, the Naval Military District region, and the places that we actually spoke about so far. Looking at it, is it correct?

A. The border between the Naval Military District and the 5th Military District was here, this line. Lika belonged to the 5th Military District, and Northern Dalmatia to the Naval Military District.

Q. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's described as tab 120, this exhibit. Which exhibit is that in? ¹³³⁹¹

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Tab 120 was actually the creation of the Operational Zones and their composition with the three military districts. But this would now, of course, need to have a different exhibit number because it's an entirely new exhibit. It's just a reference to the document that was discussed.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Give it a new number, please, the next number. It's being suggested that we have tab 171 of 352. It probably makes very little difference.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, you had mentioned the 7th Banija Division and that Mr. Bogdan Vajagic commanded it up to September 1991. Do you know who commanded it in October, November 1991?

A. Bogdan Vajagic was his name, and the division was reformed, restructured as a formation of the Territorial Defence, but it remained the same in content.

Q. And you also mentioned that Special Police Units were also there, so the units attached to the parallel structure. In -- in October, end of October, and November 1991, who in person was there from the parallel structure? Which commanding person?

A. His name was Borojevic, and he was the commander of that Special Police Unit. His name was Borojevic.

Q. Were volunteer units or paramilitary units as well in that region in Kostajnica attached to the Samarica headquarters? ¹³³⁹²

A. I don't know.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁹³

[Open session]

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if the witness could point the location of Samarica in this third tab in this map.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

Q. Witness, you heard Their Honours asking.

A. Yes, I can. Samarica is a hill which is located where the Bosanski Novi -- or rather, Dvor na Uni, Kostajnica, and Petrinja municipalities meet, which means here.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing, actually, at the word "Banija," in the region of the word "Banija." This map is not specific enough to show the place itself. Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: Is it near from Petrinja?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's between Kostajnica and Petrinja, yes.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, when you were in the region in November, did you see the villages Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin; and if so, what did they look like in relation to the destruction that ...

A. Those villages were destroyed.

Q. Were there churches in these villages and were they destroyed as well?

A. I don't know exactly. I arrived in Kostajnica from the Petrinja direction, and I saw those villages afterwards, later on, and they had been completely destroyed and without any inhabitants. ¹³³⁹⁴

Q. The villagers, or the people living, the Croat people living in these villages, had they posed a threat to the Serbs in the region in October/November 1991?

A. No, they had not. The fighting was over by mid-September.

Q. You mentioned already you heard of killings. Did you get information that 120 Croatian villagers from these three villages had been killed in October 1991?

A. I didn't receive information to that effect. My information was different, in 1994/1995.

Q. What was your information?

A. I heard from people from Dubica that they had taken revenge in Bacin for what had happened in 1941.

Q. I would like to now move on to the region Korenica, Ogulin, and in particular, the villages Saborsko, Poljanak, and Lipovanic. You have already mentioned the training ground in Slunj and the officer Cedomir Bulat being in charge there. Do you know which JNA corps were active in this region end of November until mid - sorry - end of October until mid-November 1991?

A. The command was active there, the command from Plitvice, that is, Mukinje, and from the training ground. I had information that this was the operative zone of the 6th Lika Division and units within it, or in coordination -- acting in coordination with it or subordinated to it. I also heard that there was an advance command position of the Rijeka Corps, and that the Vojvodina Brigade was active there for a while, as well as members of the paratroop units from Nis, and the Territorial Defence from ¹³³⁹⁵ the area. Who was exactly the highest commanding officer or command, I don't know. According to establishment, if there was a forward command post the Rijeka Corps, then they must have had the highest-ranking officer within it.

Q. Witness, was there also the 1st Partisan Light Brigade in this region?

A. The 1st Partisan Light Brigade was within the territory of the municipality of Gracac and a part of the municipality of Gospic, in the southern part of Lika, not around Plitvice. Up there, I think it was the 5th Brigade that was active.

Q. Yes. I would briefly talk -- I would like to briefly talk to you about this 1st Partisan Light Brigade. Who was its commander?

A. Colonel Petar Trbojevic.

Q. Was he a JNA officer?

A. Yes, a JNA officer, dispatched from the General Staff in September 1991 to form the 1st Light Partisan Brigade.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the -- I would like to have closed session very briefly, for two questions.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³³⁹⁶

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, looking at the two documents, are they related to the mobilisation that you just mentioned to us, that is, a mobilisation order of the 26th of October, 1991, and the other one also a mobilisation order of that same day?

A. That's right. ¹³³⁹⁷

Q. In the first document, there is a reference made to a mobilisation issued by the SFRY Presidency of the 4th of October, 1991. Was that the reason why this mobilisation was actually ordered?

A. Yes. This document refers to that, and this other one as well.

Q. Thank you. That should be enough. We don't need to discuss more details on this matter.

In relation to the region of Plitvice and the villages Saborsko, Poljanak, and Lipovanic, did the Korenica municipal TO staff cover that same region, and if so, who was the commander there in October, November, 1991?

A. The Municipal Staff of the TO Korenica did cover it, but the surrounding Serbian areas had been linked to the Korenica municipality. And the commander of the Municipal Staff was Colonel Milos Cvijeticanin, or Lieutenant Colonel.

Q. Was he an active JNA officer; do you know?

A. He had been an active officer in Zadar prior to that, and he probably continued to be that.

Q. Was personnel of the DB Serbia in that region active in this region; do you know?

A. Yes. After August 1991, a base of the DB of Serbia was in Korenica or, rather, Frenki's base was there.

Q. Does that mean that Frenki himself was there, or who was there in charge of this section?

A. I was told that those men from the DB were there. And I personally had met Frenki there earlier, on earlier occasions. ¹³³⁹⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³³⁹⁹

Q. You already mentioned the parachute units from Nis, and does -- do they have special uniforms?

A. They wore red berets.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to go into closed session for two questions.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³⁴⁰⁰

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. In October/November 1991, were the villages Saborsko, Poljanak, and Lipovanic surrounded by Serb villages?

A. Yes.

Q. Did these villages at that time pose a threat to the Serbs in the region?

A. No.

Q. When -- do you know when these villages were attacked?

A. There was fighting there around the 17th of November or mid-November in 1991. So mid-November there was combat around Slunj, and that is the region.

Q. Did you get the information that end of October until the 12th of November, Croat civilians were killed in these three villages? Do you know anything of that?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. I would like -- did you hear it later on? Did you get any information later on about this?

A. Later on I saw - that is in 1994 - that the villages had been destroyed and that they were abandoned, that there were no inhabitants in them.

Q. I would like now to move to the third region, that is Northern Dalmatia with Skabrnje, Nadin, and Bruska, and particularly the time ¹³⁴⁰¹ period November 1991 to February 1992. These villages that I just mentioned, are they all in the Benkovac municipality or the Serbian -- the so-called Serbian Zadar region?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was the president of the Benkovac municipality at that time, November 1991 to February 1992?

A. Zdravko Zecevic.

Q. Was he related to Frenki, Martic, and the others of the parallel structure?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a Crisis Staff in Benkovac? Do you know?

A. There was a Crisis Staff in Benkovac which was a body that was not envisaged by the documents of the municipality but was formed on the initiative of the local authorities in Benkovac itself.

Q. Was the Martic police involved in the Crisis Staff?

A. Yes, there were representatives, that is of the civilian authorities, the police, the TO; therefore, all the structures that existed within the municipality of Benkovac.

Q. Was the JNA involved in this Crisis Staff?

A. I don't know.

Q. You have already mentioned that Captain Dragan had a training facility in the Benkovac region. Was he there in November 1991? Do you know?

A. He would come in November 1991.

Q. And Frenki, was he also in this region in November 1991? ¹³⁴⁰²

A. I don't know where Frenki was at that time.

Q. In relation to the Martic police in the region in November 1991, do you know who was in charge of them there in this particular region of Benkovac?

A. There was the regular police and the special police. The head of the special police was Goran Opacic.

Q. Are you aware that Skabrnja and Nadin were attacked in November 1991?

A. There was some fighting there, but I don't know exactly the location.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness two exhibits. The first is tab 164 of Exhibit 352, and the other one is tab 75 of that same exhibit.

Q. And looking at the first one, it is actually a note about fighting concerning the Yugoslav army and Martic in the villages -- in the Croatian villages in Benkovac municipality of September 1991. Witness, this is a document compiled by the Croatian authorities, and looking -- looking at it, on the second page there is a quote, and I quote on the second page:

"In accordance with Colonel Mladic's orders, Martic's terrorists, together with military reservists, are entering all houses by force, robbing and taking everything they need and destroying the rest." And my question is: Did that happen in that region as indicated here in this note? Do you know?

A. Yes, that is how it was. ¹³⁴⁰³

Q. And I have here the second document. It is a report of the SAO Krajina headquarters of the 17th of September, 1991.

JUDGE MAY: Let's go back to the previous one, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE KWON: Which is the first document? Is it tab 165? 164.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 164.

JUDGE MAY: Let's get this right. It's 164, is it?

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is actually a document provided by the Croatian authorities, and I just wanted to address the contents of this document with the witness, whether such attacks as described here, with robbing and destroying, took place in the region. That was the purpose of putting it to the witness. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next document, tab 75.

Q. Witness, it's a report of the SAO Krajina headquarters of the 17th of September, 1991. And if you look at the seal and the header, is that a -- are they authentic?

A. They are.

Q. And what position did this person Maglov, Petar have? Do you know that?

A. I can't remember exactly.

Q. In this document, there is the mentioning of the TO Benkovac staff on the first page and an order given by Milan Martic. And as point 2, ¹³⁴⁰⁴ there is mentioned: "Have an armoured train go from Kosovo station to near Tepljuh and open heavy fire on the region of Siveric." What kind of an armoured train was it?

A. It was an armoured train that Frenki made in Strmica, a combat armoured train.

Q. And who was in charge of this train? Do you know who commanded the conduct of this train?

A. Guska was his name.

Q. To whom was he related? Was he part of this parallel structure? Who was he subordinated to?

A. Frenki and Martic.

Q. In relation to the villages Skabrnja and Nadin, did they pose a threat to the Serbs in the region, or the JNA, in November 1991?

A. To the Serbs, no; but in a sense, they jeopardised the flank of the JNA forces in the region of Zemunik.

Q. In which way did they jeopardise the flank of the JNA units? Was the Croatian army in these villages in November 1991?

A. I don't know exactly. I just know that General Vukovic said that before the winter he had to level the lines where his units had been deployed in that region, to even them out. I said General Vukovic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please, for one question.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³⁴⁰⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Do you know when these villages, Skabrnja and Nadin, were attacked and which -- in which way, which forces took part in it?

A. I learnt later -- I wasn't fully informed at the time. I was ¹³⁴⁰⁶ later informed that these were Skabrnja and Nadin, in November 1991. JNA units took part, as well as units that were coordinated by the Crisis Staff in Benkovac, which means the TO and the police and all armed formations that were in the area of Benkovac.

Q. Did you get information that Croatian civilians were murdered during the attack?

A. I learnt later that they had been.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹³⁴⁰⁷

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. This person Goran Opacic that you mentioned, did he have a nickname?

A. Klempo was what they called him.

Q. Was he close to Milan Martic?

A. Yes, close, intimate.

Q. I would like now to move on to Bruska. You have already mentioned ¹³⁴⁰⁸ Bruska and how you visited it. In December 1991, was there any fighting in or around the village?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Are you aware that ten civilians were killed in the village of Bruska on the 21st of December, 1991, and how it came about?

A. I did hear about that, later on. And how it came about was that Goran Opacic, with a few of his men, threw a bomb into the house where the inhabitants were sitting. And Croats were killed, the Croats who were there, and a Serb postman who was sitting there with them.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Closed session, please, for one question.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, with the help of the usher, I would like to put to you Exhibit -- tab 166 of Exhibit 352. And there is a document of the ¹³⁴⁰⁹ Ministry of Internal Affairs dated the 28th of September, 1992, signed and stamped. Can you first of all comment on the header and the stamp and the signature?

A. This is a document which corresponds to the contents, but the signature is not that of Martic. Somebody signed for him, probably someone from the command of the special police units.

Q. And the stamp, is it the stamp that was used at that time?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. In this document, there is a reference made to -- I quote: "We have the --" I can't read that word. Sorry. Mine was not readable. "We have the surely information that during the 29/30-1992 by force immigration of the population is planned for Skabrnja, Novigrad, and Pridraga." And a little bit further down: "... we inform you that we will be forced to prevent by force arrival of -- on the territory of RSK."

Do you know that anything happened at that time, in September 1992, in relation to the return of the population?

A. I know that people talked about it and that it was the position by the people in the government that the Croats should not be allowed to return. I don't know exactly, in any precise terms.

Q. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's enough for the document.

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, who interpreted, translated this document? I'm interested in the form of the document. Was it faxed?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is actually a UN -- we received this ¹³⁴¹⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³⁴¹¹ document from the UN.

JUDGE KWON: UNPROFOR.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: UNPROFOR. And I'm actually -- I'm not sure who translated it. I assume they, not us.

JUDGE KWON: And if you could tell us what the previous documents, the handwritten documents, are which were put before this document under the same tab number.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is just a memo from UNPROFOR related to the situation at that time, and attached was this statement from Martic, Martic's ministry. The other questions I can't actually answer. It is a letter written to UNPROFOR and the State Committee for Cooperation.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think it says that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Witness, we have -- you have already mentioned Dubrovnik and the fighting in Dubrovnik and what the goal was in relation to this region. Did the Bosnian Serbs have a particular goal for the region around Dubrovnik? Did you ever have a conversation related to this?

A. Yes, they did. It was their target that the Republika Srpska should come out onto the sea to the south of Dubrovnik, in that area.

Q. How do you know that? Did you have conversation of that kind or did you hear them quote such things?

A. I heard this from Biljana Plavsic, that Republika Srpska should be given an outlet to the sea at the rocks of Konavle.

Q. When did she say that? Did she say that publicly and when? ¹³⁴¹²

A. Yes, she said that publicly in 1994 or 1995. I'm not quite sure now.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I -- when we spoke about the intercepts in relation to the Martic arrest, there was actually one intercept that I did not put to the witness, and I would like to do that just now, and it is -- it's tab 37 of the intercept binder 353.

Q. Witness, did you listen to an intercepted conversation between Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik? Do you recall that?

A. I do recall it, yes.

Q. How familiar are you with Mr. Krajisnik's voice?

A. I know the voice well. I heard him on several occasions. He uses the Sarajevo dialect with his own personal type of intonation.

Q. Yes. I do not like to go into any details. It's not necessity point in time. Thank you.

Witness, we have seen from several documents that you had actually put -- discussed and explained to us that civilian and military courts were established in the SAO Krajina and the RSK, and we also have seen the request of the RSK to the VJ to transfer staff for military courts. Does that mean that civil and military courts did function in the years 1991 to 1995 in the Krajina?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Are you aware whether any war crimes committed against the non-Serbs, the non-Serbs in the region, were investigated by the judiciary and led to a result such as a conviction?

A. No, except for one group from Drvenik for a crime in Rupe or ¹³⁴¹³ thereabouts. In 1993, I think it was.

Q. What kind of group -- what kind of group was it? Who was convicted of what?

A. A group belonging to the army of the Srpska Krajina from Drvenik where it had killed some civilians. This was around the village of Rupe or around that area, and they were arrested and taken to trial. I don't know what the outcome of the trial was.

Q. The victims of these crimes, what ethnicity did they have?

A. They were Croats.

Q. You have already described the looting that took place after attacks on --

A. I beg your pardon. I do apologise. Or one of them was perhaps killed at Rupe, and they killed some Croats from their own village. Perhaps that was it. Perhaps that was what happened.

Q. Witness, you have already described the looting that took place after attacks on Croatian villages, and I would like to ask you a question now in private session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, you have already described the two detention facilities in Knin, and I just need a few more details on this. Were Croats detained in a part of the old Knin hospital?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. This old Knin hospital, where was it situated in Knin in relation to the government buildings and the JNA barracks?

A. Between the headquarters of the 9th Corps and the government building.

Q. Does that mean they were close?

A. Yes.

Q. Who ran the detention facility, and in which time period did it ¹³⁴¹⁵ function as a detention facility?

A. The police were at the head, and it functioned as a prison for a long time. I don't know when it started being used in that way, but sometime in the middle of the summer of 1991 until the end of 1992. And later on, when the prison was taken over by the Ministry of Justice and when Ilija Tauz came and brought in professional prison guards, it was moved to the other wing of the old hospital, and that's where the prison was later on.

Q. How many -- what kind of people were kept there; civilians, combatants, men, women? Can you tell us?

A. Members of the Croatian police force and army who had been taken prisoner. And later on, I heard that there were some civilians too, Croats.

Q. And how many Croats were detained there at a given time? What was the capacity?

A. I don't know exactly what the capacity was. Well, tens, dozens.

Q. Do you know how long the detainees were kept there? I mean, over which time period were they kept there?

A. I don't know exactly, but it was in 1991 at any rate. The autumn of 1991.

Q. I mean the individual detainees, how were they kept there, the time period; just for a few days or months? The individual detainees, how long would they be detained there?

A. Well, I can't say exactly. There were some exchanges that took place. Some of them were exchanged and, therefore, released. ¹³⁴¹⁶

Q. You said that detainees -- it was known that detainees were mistreated there. Who mistreated them and in which way?

A. The guards who were policemen. I heard later on that they even brought in citizens from the streets to mistreat them.

Q. And when you say "citizens from the streets," which ethnicity had the victims?

A. Croats.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Closed session, please.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE KWON: Why don't you repeat the final comment in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Which one?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Which one do you mean? Oh, you mean that we are finished with our questions. Yes. The Prosecution has now finished ¹³⁴²⁰ its questions that we're to put to the witness, and faster as expected.

JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient time. We'll go to cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic, after the break. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, before you begin, there's one procedural matter which we must deal with in private session. We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session] ¹³⁴²¹

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, would you, of course, bear in mind that any matters, as you know now, which may disclose the identity of this witness must be dealt with in private session, and you should err on the side of caution in that respect. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have been given the testimony of this witness on tapes, and I would like at the beginning to play one of those many videotapes, the first one. The first one will suffice.

JUDGE MAY: Just let us see what -- let us just see what this is. This is tapes of his interview, is that it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. A part of the first tape of his conversations with the lady opposite and with the investigator, upon which I could put some questions to the witness and ask him to comment.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the track has been identified. It will have to be in private session, as the registrar points out, because of the facial distortion.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back into open session.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, to assist you in preparation of your cross-examination, we've decided you can have up to 20 hours cross-examination. We don't encourage you to take that long, but you can if you want. You've had an hour and a half, of course, this morning, playing that tape. We will today sit until 2.00, so you have until then to continue your cross-examination. And would you remember, please, both the accused and the witness, to leave a pause between question and answer, for the interpreters. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it is my impression that the time that you are giving me is somewhat shorter than the examination-in-chief took, and as you're indicating the need for making pauses between question and answer, and other forms in which time is wasted, I don't think that you ought to abridge the time.

JUDGE MAY: The time is not abridged. But go on. Let us make a start. We've a lot to cover.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

Q. Now, I have played some tapes here, just half, actually, of a large number of tapes that we have from your interviews, Mr. Croatia 61. I could have taken any other tape, but I selected the first tape. Now, did it remind you -- we saw the tape played and we saw on the tape that the lady opposite said to you that what you were saying was in ¹³⁴⁵³ complete contrast with what they had, and you were able to see that; isn't that right?

A. I don't understand your question.

Q. I was saying -- let me remind you. Did you see that a moment ago that even the lady who interviewed you and held the examination-in-chief said that what you were saying was in complete contrast with what they had? I hope you were able to see that.

A. Would you please be more specific.

Q. Well, for me to be more specific, I would have to go back into a closed session, and I don't wish to do that. So I'm asking you in open session: Did you remember what you saw a moment ago?

A. During the interview, I told the truth to the best of my recollections.

Q. All right. Did you notice that the interviewers, the investigator himself - and this was at the very end of this excerpt from the tape that I played to you - that he presented his impressions that this was in contradiction with what they had, the material they had, and that he had the impression that you were distorting your answers, that they were distorted, slanting your answers?

A. If I can remember, the investigator reminded me that I should speak about the facts that I had seen and heard, and not talk about my feelings and sentiments in my heart and in my mind.

Q. All right. Tell me, then, please, this: In view of the fact that the person who was putting the questions to you, and the investigator, was cautioning you about the contrasts that you -- and what you were saying, ¹³⁴⁵⁴ as opposed to what they had, the material they had, how come that you agreed in the examination-in-chief with everything they said over the past five and a half days?

JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for the witness to answer. He gave his answers. It will be for us to judge the way in which he gave them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

Q. You say that you had made attempts to secure a peaceful and harmonious life for the population of the Krajina with the other inhabitants of Croatia, within the framework of the Republic of Croatia. Is that correct? Is that what you endeavoured to achieve? That's what you say. Isn't it so?

A. I am saying that in 1990, the political option in favour of the SAO Krajina was one thing; in 1991, it was something else; and in 1995, again it resembled the option of 1991 [as interpreted].

Q. Tell me --

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises: 1990.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We have seen on this tape, and I think at the examination-in-chief, that in the beginning -- and as we have seen when they are putting questions to you - they keep repeating this, and it's in the transcript - that is, that you, as of 1990, attempted to secure a harmonious life within the framework of the Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

A. In 1990, we wanted the community of municipalities, that is, the ¹³⁴⁵⁵ SAO Krajina, to achieve political and territorial autonomy within Croatia, and depending on the position of Croatia within Yugoslavia. If it was in a federation, the content of this territorial autonomy would be on a lower level, it would resemble a cultural autonomy; and if Croatia became a confederal republic within Yugoslavia, then the level of autonomy would be higher. That was -- those were the options in 1990.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But we all heard you explaining that from the very beginning, from 1990 onwards, you endeavoured to solve the question or the issue of a harmonious life within the Republic of Croatia. And as far as I was able to see and hear on the tape, your explanations were that what was in your heart and in your mind - you even gestured and pointed to your heart and your head - that this was not what was on your lips, this was not what you were saying. Is that correct?

A. In 1990 -- I explained in great detail how it came about that the SAO Krajina opted for Yugoslavia in 1991. In 1991, I agreed with your conception that the SAO Krajina and the Serbs had the right to remain within Yugoslavia.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in order to avoid identifying the witness, I will not be more specific here, but I can refer to an article in Politika.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you explain how it came about that this article was ¹³⁴⁵⁶ published? You marked it with number 63. It follows that your statement was not actually yours, that somebody else had made it and that it was published as yours. Is this your explanation?

A. What article are you referring to specifically?

Q. The document you marked number 63.

A. May I see the document?

JUDGE MAY: Now, 63, Mr. Milosevic, is a decree to do with insignia. Is that what you had in mind?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the witness said when interviewed by the investigator and a representative of the other side --

JUDGE MAY: I think that's --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what he himself mentioned as 63.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. No, I don't think it is 63. I think it's 79. Let the witness see 79. Don't put it on the ELMO. Yes. Now the witness has it. What was the question, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand how -- what he meant when he said someone else would have signed it, he had not signed it. I don't understand his explanation.

JUDGE MAY: I think we better go into private session to deal with this.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Can we agree --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. May, that we should at least make an effort to work in open session as much as we can.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can we agree that it follows from what you are saying that you enjoyed your political role? You say that you knew that you could survive politically only if you said what your surroundings expected of you. Is that right?

A. I liked my political role, in a sense, and I had to respect public opinion in my political actions.

Q. So you were working because of the attraction of the political role, and you were doing things that you did not agree with because of the attraction of your political role; is that what you are saying?

A. No. Occasionally those were the motives, yes.

Q. Yes or no. ¹³⁴⁷⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹³⁴⁷¹

A. Generally, no, but there was such a motive too, in certain periods of time and for certain reasons.

Q. Does that mean that you played your political part only because of the power that it implied? For what other motive, if you were doing things you did not agree with?

A. No. I played my political role because I believed that it could contribute to a better future for the people, for the public good.

Q. Was that for the public good, for the benefit of the public, for you to speak contrary to your convictions, which you are now presenting to us here?

A. I didn't speak or act in contradiction with my convictions but in line with political pragmatism as to how those convictions could be turned into reality, in what way.

Q. But as far as I was able to see, in your explanation you mention that you may have got some things confused, you may have forgotten things. But anyway, on the last tape you even apologise because of such a possibility, don't you?

A. In the interviews conducted with me, I said that I said what I could remember but that I had more to say, and at the end of that interview was my statement that I had things to add, things I hadn't said.

Q. Very well, then. Tell me, what was the motive of your endeavours? Was it political pragmatism, as you put it, to create the image among the citizens of Krajina that you were coordinating your views with the leadership of Serbia when it comes it your decisions and positions? ¹³⁴⁷²

A. Those were not my words.

Q. Well, let us assume that -- the fact that I sought to explain to the citizens of Krajina that that was not true. That must have had some reason, or maybe it had no reason or no motive.

A. You sought to cheat, to trick the peoples of Krajina, to play around with their destiny.

Q. I wanted to play with the citizens of Krajina why?

A. To achieve your plans. And in 1991 they were maximalistic, and later on you revised them. And for the revision of your political plans, you manipulated with public opinion and the people, and the people of Krajina as well.

Q. Perhaps that may be a projection of precisely what you were doing with public opinion in Krajina all this time, especially when it is placed in the context of your current explanations of your intentions, as long ago as 1990, to resolve all problems within the framework of the Republic of Croatia. Is that so or not?

A. In 1991, we accepted your concept for the solution to the crisis on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, which was the right of all Serbs to remain in one state.

Q. Mr. C-061, we'll come to that later on in due course, but as you mention this, I assume that you know that with the existence of Yugoslavia since 1918, in fact, and that Yugoslavia expressed the interests of all the South Slav peoples, that the Serbs did in fact live in a single state. Not in 1991 or 1992 but since 1918. That is to say since the end of World War I. Is that something you are aware of? ¹³⁴⁷³

A. Could you ask the question again, please?

Q. Do you know that all the Serbs lived in the one state since the end of the First World War in 1918?

A. I am aware of the historical facts and that in 1918 a state was set up of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes in such a way that Serbia and Montenegro united and the provisional state of the Slovenes, Croats, and Serbs, which was later on proclaimed to be the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. In 1939, within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Banovina of Croatia was established, and through the decisions of the National Liberation Movement, the Communist Party, in 1945 the federation was set up of the Yugoslav republics.

Q. Do you remember that even in the declaration which you drew up, or whatever the document was called, on unification of Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina, that it was precisely in that document that you describe the historical course of life in common in a single state, which dates back to 1918 and not 1990 or 1991? Aren't these historical facts that cannot be refuted?

A. The concept that you advocated and that we accepted in 1990 and 1991 during the disintegration of Yugoslavia was the concept according to which the peoples of Yugoslavia had the right to self-determination up until the point of secession, and you prepared a law along those lines.

Q. Sir, you are referring to --

MR. MUELLER: I'm sorry.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I do apologise. I did not do that intentionally. ¹³⁴⁷⁴

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mueller is on his feet.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mueller.

MR. MUELLER: Your Honours, would you mind me asking for a short break now to have a word with my client?

JUDGE MAY: We're just about to break anyway. Let me just see what the question was. Is there a matter -- we'll go into private session if we're not in private session.

MR. MUELLER: We are not.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I just ask one thing of the Chamber as well? It will be of great assistance to us if the accused is able to indicate to the Chamber how much of the remaining --

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: -- 17 1/2 hours of indicated cross-examination time he's likely to use. That time would take us to the end of the three days sitting, roughly, of next week, when there's another five-day break. If he's going to be substantially less than that amount of time, we'd have to get a witness in for next week. If he's likely to want and to use all of that amount of time, then it will not be necessary to get a witness until five days later, for the following week. I suspect there's going to be a change of witness ordering in any event because of the time that's been used, but if the accused - and I recognise it's not an easy exercise - if ¹³⁴⁸⁵ he could indicate to you, by tomorrow, whether he's likely to use the full time allowed, that would help us in our planning.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard the request. Perhaps you'd like to think about it.

Let me say to the --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already stated my views, Mr. May. It is my impression -- and I asked you to reassess the time that I will have. Of course I intend to use up all the time that you allot me.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We won't go into the matter any further. The Prosecution will have heard that.

I say this to the public: that of course this witness is protected, and nothing is to be reported which indicates his identity. We'll adjourn now. 9.00 tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.