¹⁴⁰⁹²

Monday, 9 December 2002

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Babic, during cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic spoke with you about Dusan Jovic, TO commander in Glina appointed by you, and the exhibit was actually tab 118 of Exhibit 352. Did Mr. Jovic actually fulfill his position and did he command the TO units in Glina during any military operations in 1991?

A. Mr. -- Dr. Dusan Jovic was appointed at the end of July 1991, but he was not able to take up his positions, perform his duties, because of the obstructions that were going on, first of all, in the structures in Dvor, Kostajnica, Petrinja, or rather, the North Banija division. He performed the function as president of the municipal Assembly of Glina. That was the authority and competence he had.

Q. And who obstructed him taking up the position of TO commander; which organisations? ¹⁴⁰⁹³

A. All the structures, the commander of the Central Banija, Bojan Bajagic, and then the JNA units and police units in the area.

Q. You also appointed, on the 4th of October, 1991, Major Cupovic and other reserve officers to be -- to form the TO staff in Glina.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that's tab 134, Your Honours, from the same exhibit.

Q. Did they actually fulfill and take up the position or were they also obstructed? Do you know?

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone. Thank you.

A. I don't remember exactly how it happened, what the events were.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Can you come a little bit closer to the microphone so that the interpreters can hear you better.

Mr. Milosevic also spoke with you about Dr. Radovan Markovic, and he referred to a letter to Arkan.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And this document was not tendered so far, Your Honours, and therefore I would like to put it to the witness and also tender it.

Q. Witness, please have a look at the Serbian version of this document. It is a letter from Dr. Markovic to Arkan in Belgrade of the 25th of November, 1991, in relation to the participation of Arkan's unit in the defence of Petrinja, and it says here: "We agree with the proposition that members of the Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit, participate in fightings on the JNA and TO positions in the municipality ¹⁴⁰⁹⁴ of Petrinja. The unit will be commanded by a senior officer, and the unit will be part of and under the command of the commander of the 2nd Motorised Battalion of the 622nd Motorised Brigade." And I would like to know from you who made this proposition that Arkan's unit participate in the fighting on the JNA and TO positions. Do you know that?

A. I don't know. As far as I can see from here, it is Dr. Radovan Markovic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja who gave his permission for that and agreed to it, in fact.

Q. And there is also mentioned the 622nd Motorised Brigade. Is that a JNA brigade or a TO unit? Do you know that?

A. It's a JNA brigade.

Q. And do you know who commanded this brigade?

A. I don't know exactly, but Slobodan Tarbuk was there. Whether he was the commander of the brigade or the whole garrison in Petrinja, I'm not quite sure. Colonel Slobodan Tarbuk, whether he was commander of the brigade or the garrison, I'm not quite sure, I don't know exactly.

Q. There is a Bogdan Ercegovac mentioned in this letter. Do you know whether he was a JNA officer or what his position was?

A. He was a JNA officer, I know that. As far as I know, he was appointed commander of the TO in Petrinja for one particular detachment in Petrinja, or rather probably. It was renamed the motorised battalion.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into the microphone, thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. The interpreters still have difficulties to understand you. ¹⁴⁰⁹⁵ Please speak into the microphones.

Did Arkan actually take part in the fighting in Petrinja in November 1991, do you know that?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. In relation to this 622nd --

JUDGE MAY: If we are moving from the document, we should give it an exhibit number first.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 352, tab 172.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

Q. In relation to the 622nd Motorised Brigade, I would like to put to the witness another exhibit which is also not yet tendered. It is an order of the Commander Spiro Nikolic of the 1st Operational Group Command, dated 19 October, 1991, and it's placing TO units under JNA units. And we have here the mentioned in this order the 622nd Motorised Brigade. Witness, looking at the document at the head, the header and the format and the signature, is that an authentic document?

A. Yes, at least according to what I can see here.

Q. And Major General Spiro Nikolic, was he the commander of the 1st Operational Group Command, and where was this group command?

A. Yes, that was the command at Samarica.

Q. Mr. Milosevic, during cross-examination, put to you that you forced Colonel Trbojevic to effect mobilisation in Gracac and Donji Lapac and to expel all Croats from Gracac. You have already addressed the ¹⁴⁰⁹⁶ mobilisation of volunteers for the 1st Light Brigade, and we would not have to comment on this any more. But my question is were Croats expelled from Gracac, and if so, did you order this, or who?

A. From the Gracac region, the Croats were expelled, yes, during the combat and fighting with the 1st Partizan Brigade and previously through the operations led by Frenki Simatovic, and Mile Martic.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last phrase.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Could you repeat the last phrase. The interpreters didn't hear you.

A. Operations led by Milan Martic, and before the 1st Partizan Brigade went into operation to deblock the warehouses in Svetilok [phoen], and in the Gracac area, the Croatian village of Lovinac they did go into operation. Frenki, or Franjo Simatovic as he was known in Gracac, and Milan Martic with mortars -- with a mortar unit. They were the first to open fire on the village of Lovinac, and thus expel the Croats from the Gracac area, municipality.

Q. Were Croatian villages including Lovinac set on fire? That's what you discussed with Mr. Milosevic. Were they set on fire and who did it?

A. Yes. The villages were set on fire. They were looted, and this was done by those structures, the structures that attacked them.

Q. And which structures did attack them? Is that what you just mentioned, Frenki?

A. Yes. Right.

Q. In relation to Kijevo, Mr. Milosevic questioned to you and put to ¹⁴⁰⁹⁷ you that there was no coordination between General Mladic and the Martic police. And I would like to put to you a document.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The document which is also not yet an exhibit. And it is --

JUDGE MAY: Do you want the last one exhibited or not, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 352, tab 173.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the next exhibit that I would like to be exhibited is the 16th Session of the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina held in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992.

JUDGE MAY: What is this?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is an --

JUDGE MAY: It's an enormous bundle of paper.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and I only want to discuss with the witness page 46 of the English, of the translation, and page 35 of the Serbian version. It's just about Kijevo and what Mr. Mladic himself on this session said about Kijevo. It's 37, page 37 [sic], and there's just one quote.

Q. And Witness, for you, it's marked. And it is Mr. Mladic speaking, General Mladic speaking, about what happened in Kijevo, and he says the following: "The Knin Corps was successful because under a single command in the zone of the Corps were the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and Martic's police. Isn't that right, Martic? And because he -- ¹⁴⁰⁹⁸

JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it marked in the English at page 46?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 47.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you said 46.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, page 47.

Q. Okay. And I continue: "And because he and I, I call him and say, give me 40 policemen here at Kijevo, and you took part in the fighting, isn't that right, Milan? And we did what we had planned, and we planned -- and we will have artillery here, and this artillery acts."

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, from the whole document, you can see that also Mr. Milan Martic is present during the Assembly meeting in Banja Luka. And so General Mladic refers to him.

Q. Witness, were you aware that such an Assembly meeting took place in Banja Luka?

A. I heard about it.

Q. And did this quote from General Mladic, did it actually reflect what happened in Kijevo?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Both in your -- I want to move now to another chapter.

JUDGE MAY: Exhibit this document.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 352, tab 174.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, both in your examination-in-chief and while questioned by Mr. Milosevic you spoke about the appointment of the TO main staff in October and November 1991 and the arrival of the officers Maksic, Kasum, ¹⁴⁰⁹⁹ and Vuletic in Knin. And Mr. Milosevic put to you that those officers actually volunteered to serve in the TO. And I would like to know from you when they came, when they came to Knin, did they continue to be members of the JNA, or did they quit their service in the JNA?

A. They were on the payroll of the JNA, or rather, they were in the JNA.

Q. And did they transfer back to the JNA or VJ at a later point in time?

A. They went back to the army of Yugoslavia. They were transferred there.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher in this relation, I would like to put to the witness another document. And it is an order. It's an order by Gojko Krstic, the chief of the personnel administration of the VJ headquarters of the 22nd April, 1992, addressed to the TO of the RSK on the deployment of 72 officers.

Q. And, Witness, when you look at the position, there is -- there are 72 people listed in this document. And on position 1, you see Kasum Dusan, and on position 5 you see Aleksandar Vuletic. Are these the people that arrived, and are they still on the JNA members, or rather VJ?

A. Yes, those are the two people.

Q. And looking at the document at the format, including the header and the person who signs it, is this an authentic document?

A. Yes.

Q. And Major General Gojko Krstic, in which administration was he chief? Do you know which administration of the VJ it is? ¹⁴¹⁰⁰

A. Personnel administration.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have this exhibited.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 352, tab 175.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. In relation to this matter, I also would like to have to the witness the Exhibit -- a new exhibit as well.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This previous document, I'd like to indicate in it that it is not signed by Gojko Krstic. The signature here is by somebody who says that he is a sergeant first class who is signing, and not the signature of Major General Gojko Krstic. I don't see Gojko Krstic's signature there, so I don't know whether the witness says he recognises the signature of the sergeant first class. He can't recognise the signature of General Gojko Krstic because he hasn't signed his name there.

JUDGE MAY: We'll take note of that, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but the witness didn't say he identifies the...

The next document is a list of military staff of the VJ temporarily deployed in the RSK TO submitted by General Torbica, commander of the RSK headquarters, to Colonel Medakovic of the VJ personnel administration of the 19th October, 1991.

Q. And looking at the document, can you comment on its authenticity? ¹⁴¹⁰¹

A. Yes, it is authentic. Milan Torbica was indeed the commander.

Q. If you look at the first person listed, it is Milan Torbica; and on the first page, the 15th person listed is Dusan Kasum; and on page 3, under the units in Kordun we have the first person listed as Cedomir Bulat, whom you had mentioned previously as a JNA commander; and listed under Lika on page 7 is Milan Suput, the person that you also mentioned previously.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can that be exhibited.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 352, tab 176.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, in relation to Colonel Djujic, my question would be, was he also, despite his position in the TO, was he paid by the JNA?

A. General Djujic, I don't know exactly.

Q. In relation to General Mrksic, Mr. Milosevic questioned you about his origin. And my question to you is despite the fact that General Mrksic had family roots in the RSK, before he was appointed RSK army commander, was he in the VJ, and did he continue to be a VJ officer? Do you know?

A. Yes.

Q. In relation to the Kertes intercept, the intercept Braco-Radovan Karadzic, it's tab 28 of Exhibit 352, Mr. Milosevic put to you that the Vojvodina was the bread basket of the former Yugoslavia, and that you cannot conclude that they were speaking about anything else than food and deliveries of medicine. My question is: Was Mihajlo Kertes, whom you ^{14102 BLANK PAGE 14103} described as the member of the MUP, Serbia, involved in eight deliveries of humanitarian character? Do you know whether he ever dealt with such deliveries?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. When you received humanitarian aid, who would usually organise that?

A. It would come in through different channels, through individuals --

THE INTERPRETER: Institutions, not channels. Interpreters' correction.

A. -- in different ways.

Q. Would the MUP Serbia be involved in it, in these kind of deliveries?

A. No.

Q. Given the date of the intercept, that's June 1991, did you in the Krajina receive medicine, food, and blankets from Vojvodina? Do you know that?

A. I don't remember.

JUDGE MAY: Can we move from there, for the record, it should be noted it's not Exhibit 352. The Registry point out it's Exhibit 353, tab 28.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry, then, I misspoke.

Q. In relation to other -- Mr. Tapuskovic actually put to you that in relation to intercepts in July and August 1991 when Mr. Karadzic and Mr. ¹⁴¹⁰⁴ Milosevic spoke about steps to be taken and plans, he said that at that time, Slovenia and Croatia were already independent and therefore why should they speak about plans. My question to you is at that time, was there a moratorium agreed upon so that Slovenia and Croatia postpone their declaration of independence until October?

A. That's right. It was the Brioni agreement with the representatives of the European Community, and the moratorium held true for three months.

Q. In relation to the Mirkovci oil wells, you said to a question of Mr. Milosevic that oil was produced in Mirkovci and then processed in Pancevo. Pancevo, is that in Serbia near Belgrade?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Who was in charge of the Pancevo refinery? Do you know that?

A. I don't know exactly who was the manager. It was a state-owned or socially owned company, oil refinery.

Q. Of Serbia?

A. That's right.

Q. You mentioned that quotas of the processed oil for RSK and RS existed. Who decided about the quotas?

A. As far as I know, Mikelic, Stanisic, or rather, the DB and Mikelic.

Q. And that is the dispute they had you referred to during your testimony about the quotas?

A. That's right.

Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you in relation to the army, the involvement ¹⁴¹⁰⁵ of the JNA in Croatia, he put to you that in relation to the involvement of the JNA in Croatia, the JNA intervened only for two matters, that is, to separate the clashing parties, and to deblock their own barracks. Is this a proper description of their conduct in the Serb-controlled regions, in the SAOs?

A. The JNA intervened in the first place in order to deploy in the SAO regions, and then beyond them, and to keep that territory in the state that was being created by Milosevic.

Q. Was the JNA in summer 1991 a neutral force that protected both the Serbs and the Croats equally, or did it side with one side?

A. It was on the Serb side; that is, on the side of Milosevic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I see my half hour is over.

JUDGE MAY: Are you asking for a little longer?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

JUDGE MAY: You aren't. Good. Thank you very much. Mr. Babic, that does conclude your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go now.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, there are two technical matters left open. Two exhibits that Mr. Milosevic wanted to tender were marked for identification, and it's, first of all, the list, the list with the 5.000 names. And the problem that the Prosecution has with this list, it is actually the following: You cannot see from the list who produced it, when, and on which basis, what is the foundation of this list. And I ¹⁴¹⁰⁶ think it should be only marked for identification until this foundation is laid.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll certainly do that.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to the book, I have to say that also the Prosecution would like to tender in the course of this trial a few books without the author being present. And I would say if Mr. Milosevic would accept that, too, we are willing to accept this book as well. But it would be -- we wouldn't do it without any discussion on this matter.

JUDGE MAY: I think we have doubts about books because of what they contain and the difficulties of saying what status they should have. It may be convenient if we mark it for identification, and at a suitable time, when you have the books that you have in mind, we can perhaps look at them all together, apply the same principles to them all.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honours. That's convenient.

MR. NICE: Our next witness has protection, and accordingly, may we go into closed session briefly. And when we have gone into closed session, there's a couple of short administration matters that I'd like to raise as well.

[Private session]

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ¹⁴¹⁰⁷ Pages 14107 to 14110 - redacted - private session. ¹⁴¹¹¹ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: May I explain, now that we're in open session, that this witness is Witness C-025, who has already taken the solemn declaration. And although I think the witness has yet to look at this particular map, may I invite him please to be shown on the overhead projector page 23 of our atlas, Exhibit 336. And it's the right-hand page, and it's the top left-hand half of the right-hand page, please. That's perfect. Thank you very much. Little bit to the left. A bit further to the left. Perfect. Thank you.

Q. Witness C-025, you're looking at a map with which you may not be familiar, having prepared to give evidence with a different map. But look at this map, please. Does this map show the area of Baranja? Do we see it to be bordered at the north by the boundary with Hungary; to the east by the boundary with Serbia marked substantially by the Danube River; and to the south through Osijek by the Drava River?

A. Yes.

Q. At the material time with which we are concerned, when the boundary with Hungary was closed, were there two bridges passing into ^{14112 BLANK PAGE 14113} Serbia on the east, one at Batina in the north, and the other one at Erdut immediately east of Osijek to the south of this area of Baranja?

A. Yes, but not in Baranja. Erdut is not in the area of Baranja.

Q. Thank you. Was there at one stage a bridge at Osijek? Did it become destroyed? If so, when?

A. Could you please clarify the question. Across which river? Because Osijek had a bridge across the Drava River.

Q. Yes, across that river.

A. There was a bridge. It was destroyed by the Croatian police or army sometime in the summer of 1991.

Q. Paragraph 3: Before the conflict, C-025, was the multi-ethnic SDP popular in Baranja?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the SDS party grow in influence over time, and did that match in any way the growth of the HDZ on the Croatian side?

MR. NICE: Could the usher just leave the map on the overhead projector. Thank you very much.

A. Yes.

Q. Was this area visited by any radical Serbian politicians; and if so, can you name them?

A. Among the radical politicians, there was Vojislav Seselj who came, and Mr. Paroski would also come.

Q. What, if any, influence or effect did their visits have on interethnic relations?

A. The very purpose of their visit was national awakening among the ¹⁴¹¹⁴ Serbian people in Baranja.

Q. Did that have any effect on the non-Serbs in the area?

A. At that very point in time, that is, during the visits themselves, not so much. But later on, during the conflict, yes.

Q. By the first half of August 1991, what measure of control did Serbs have over the area of Baranja?

A. Most of Baranja was in the hands of the Serbs. A village in the immediate vicinity of Osijek, Bilje, was still not under Serb control.

Q. Was there a meeting of the Serb Territorial Defence in Jagodnjak, which we can see south of Beli Manastir and north-west of Osijek?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you learn of what happened at that meeting; and if so, what was the rank or position, but do not name the person, the rank or position of the person who informed you?

A. I learned about that meeting from the commander of the local staff of which I, too, was a member. The meeting was held in Jagodnjak. Representatives of all TO staffs from Baranja and representatives of the SDS attended that meeting.

Q. What was the discussion at the meeting? What influence, if any, did the political party the SDS have at the meeting?

A. The meeting was linked to the organisation of the attack on the village of Bilje. So it was of an operative military nature, whereas representatives of the SDS, that is, two representatives of the top leadership of that party, attended the meeting purely to get information and to familiarise themselves with the operation and to assist in the ¹⁴¹¹⁵ organisation as sufficient men needed to be recruited to participate in the operation.

Q. Okay. We'll find Bilje on the map just a little north of Osijek. At the time of this meeting, could you estimate what percentage of local Territorial Defence commanders were members of the SDS party?

A. Percentage-wise, perhaps around 80 per cent of the staff commanders were in the SDS party.

Q. I want to turn to another topic, Crisis Staffs. But before I do so, in summary, please, the ethnic composition of Baranja before the conflict and the ethnic composition by estimation by mid-1991, please.

A. Baranja is a multi-ethnic region with three ethnicities represented, the Croatian, Serbian, and Hungarian having roughly an equal share. After the outbreak of the conflict, this ratio was changed in favour of the Serbs, which means that the non-Serbs left Baranja.

Q. Would you be in a position to estimate the percentage of the population that was Serb by that time?

A. As the non-Serbs left Baranja, so the Serbs from the Osijek area came in to Baranja so that the percentage of Serbs -- there were 30 per cent to begin with. But the percentage increased more and more afterwards.

Q. The Crisis Staffs, the Chamber may be familiar with this, but in case they are not, a word from you about them. Did Crisis Staffs have a peacetime and proper function? If so, what was it?

A. The Crisis Staffs were set up in peacetime, and their task was to give assistance to the population and citizens in case of elemental ¹⁴¹¹⁶ disasters such as floods, droughts, et cetera. So to assist the population in jeopardy.

Q. By the time of and in the conflict, did the SDS have any say or influence over the appointment of presidents of local Crisis Staffs?

A. No.

Q. I may come back to that. But let's move on to this: As non-Serbs were leaving the area, did decisions have to be made about their real estate and other property? If so, who dealt with it?

A. Yes. The property that was left behind was placed at the disposal, or rather taken over by the Crisis Staffs, and the procedure for this was as follows: The immovables were sealed and the property was listed, recorded.

Q. How was it allocated, and were there incoming Serbs from other parts of Croatia who had to be accommodated?

A. Yes. That same property, the property that had been sealed and listed, was given to other Serbs from Croatia who came in to the area. Both individually and in organised fashion.

Q. Did this influx of Serbs from elsewhere and the allocation of property to them result in any consequences or anxieties for the non-Serbs remaining in the area?

A. The greater influx of Serbs from Croatia took place towards the end of 1991. Western Slavonia, that is, from Western Slavonia, the Serbs were coming in to Baranja. And as I said, they were accommodated in the houses that had been left empty and facilities. There were villages in which these Serbs, Serb refugees, became the majority, the majority ¹⁴¹¹⁷ population. And that is where the problems arose with the long-standing locals, non-Serbs, who had remained in those places. Usually they were elderly persons whose children had left and gone to Croatia and they had stayed on to look after the property.

Q. Insofar as those people suffered any problems, whether of harassment or worse, did the local Serb authorities take any steps to protect them or to control such harassment or whatever?

A. For the first few months, no, they did not. The first few months in which these sort of clashes occurred, violence was tolerated.

Q. Turning now to the Territorial Defence and very briefly, as the ethnic composition changed, was there a change in the chain of command or the effective chain of command of the Territorial Defence for Baranja?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it originally responsive to authorities in Zagreb? Did that position change?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it indeed cease to become responsive to Zagreb; and if so, to whom was it responsive thereafter?

A. The Territorial Defence of Baranja, on its territory, received a superior command, and that was the JNA.

Q. Was there any pattern of replacement of local Territorial Defence commanders on political grounds?

A. Well, the pattern was that the most suitable individual would be looked for to implement the policy. It wasn't essential whether they had any previous military knowledge or education; it was purely based on ¹⁴¹¹⁸ political rating.

Q. And political acceptability being judged by what approach to the problem? What was required of these military commanders by the political leadership?

A. Talking about the local commanders, the commanders of the local TO staffs, which meant that the basic prerequisite was for the person to be a Serb or rather a member of the SDS.

Q. In the course of the conflict generally, was war activity in Baranja itself very limited, and if so can you tell the learned Judges at which sites there was real fighting, site or sites?

A. Well, there was real fighting on two occasions in the Baranja region. First, the first battle was fought over the place called Bilje, which is where the Serbs attacked in order to take control of the village of Bilje. And this took place at the end of August 1991. At the beginning of 1992, however, the Croatian army launched a breakthrough operation on the Baranja territory along the axis and in the direction of the village of Torjanci, which was the second battle that took place in Baranja, along with a few other incidents and attempted attacks on border huts along the border north-west of Baranja, in the area -- or rather, towards the Hungarian border and the Drava River.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, Torjanci is just visible on the overhead projector because it's on the fold of the page, and it's immediately to the left of Petrovo Selo, top, left-hand corner of the area we're concerned with.

As always, it's in the fold of the map. Places always are. ¹⁴¹¹⁹

Q. Apart from those incidents of fighting, Witness C-025, was there any sporadic or regular looting of property in this area?

A. There was looting of property, yes. At the beginning, it was more intense and it lessened afterwards as the situation calmed down and as the property was listed. The looting lost its strength.

Q. What part, if any, did local Territorial Defence commanders play in the looting?

A. There were individual cases where the commanders were involved because they had at their disposal the means of transport which, under those circumstances, was vital. I'm talking about trucks and similar vehicles. So that when the first front lines were taken, in the villages where they were accommodated, in the houses and property that had been left behind when the people had left, they would take it away, take that property away.

Q. Can I deal now with the degree to which local Serbs in the Baranja area were armed. Was there a pattern of local Serbs obtaining weapons? If so, when and from whom?

A. Yes. That's right. Arming systematically started when the Plitvice Lakes events took place, and the occurrences in Borovo Selo, which means sometime in May 1991 onwards. And illegally, through illegal transports, weapons were brought into the village of Jagodnjak, and then further distribution of weapons was conducted through the members of the SDS, and it was distributed in the other places.

MR. NICE: The Chamber can find Jagodnjak north-west of Osijek and effectively due south of Beli Manastir. ¹⁴¹²⁰

Q. Did you yourself, Witness C-025, obtain a weapon? If so, from what category of person? Don't be specific as to any location.

A. I received it from a member of the SDS. I was invited to go to his home and fetch the weapon.

Q. When you went there, did you see any other weapons? If so, what types of weapons did you see?

A. Yes, I did see weapons. Usually infantry-type weapons with a few hand-held Zolja-type rocket launchers.

Q. From where did you understand those weapons to have come?

A. Apart from those rocket launchers, all the other weapons were out of date, outdated weapons. That is to say, weapons that had been manufactured at some previous date from some military stockpiles. They weren't up-to-date state-of-the-art infantry weapons; they were old-fashioned mostly.

Q. If not from Baranja itself, from which region or state had this collection of weapons come, to your understanding?

A. It came from Yugoslavia, or rather, from Serbia.

Q. I'll return to paragraph 14, if and when we next go into private session.

Paragraph 15: By the end of July 1991, was there any JNA presence in the Baranja area? If so, where?

A. Yes, there was. The JNA was present in two locations. It was permanently stationed -- there was a unit permanently stationed in Beli Manastir, and another unit on the bridge between Baranja and Serbia, or rather, in the village of Batina; on the bridge itself and up above the ¹⁴¹²¹ village as a protection to the bridge.

Q. The unit based in Beli Manastir, what sort of unit was that and where did it come from?

A. That was a unit which provided security along the state border towards the Republic of Hungary.

Q. Do you know where the -- what sort of unit was it? Was it a mechanised brigade or something different?

A. It was an infantry unit, but when the conflict broke out, it was reinforced with some armoured personnel carriers and so on.

Q. And from where had they come? Do you know?

A. They had come in from Yugoslavia.

Q. By "Yugoslavia," do you mean Serbia?

A. Yes, I mean Serbia, that's right. At that time, to all intents and purposes, the country was still Yugoslavia.

Q. At the end of September 1991, was the local Serb Territorial Defence commander a man Borivoje Dobrokes, or Dobrokes?

A. Yes.

Q. Just yes or no, did you discover or see him to be assisted by officers from outside Baranja? If so, how many, give us their rank and origins.

A. Yes, I did. There were officers from the Yugoslav army, or rather the JNA as it was at the time. And they dealt with organisational problems for the TO staff and headquarters in Baranja itself. They were high-ranking officers, and their rank was colonel.

Q. From which town had they come? ^{14122 BLANK PAGE 14123}

A. I know that one of them was from Belgrade and that he was a lecturer at one of the high military schools in Belgrade.

Q. Following the Vance Plan and the withdrawal of the JNA from Baranja, were any JNA or Serbian-origin officers left in the area?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they serve in any sense or way with the local Serb Territorial Defence?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they have any other connection with Baranja itself?

A. Well, perhaps a small portion of it did, either family ties or others. But most of them did not have any connection.

Q. We've now dealt with various component parts of the way of life as affected by the conflict. Could you in a few sentences, for the learned Judges, help us with what life was like. You've told us about the two areas of real conflict. Was life normal? Did businesses go on? Did farming get done throughout the period of the conflict, or not?

A. As for life at that time in Baranja, we couldn't say that life was normal because of the circumstances themselves. War was looming, and it was autumn. Baranja is an agricultural area, a farming area. So it was a time of crop collection. And the conflict escalated at that time so that this made things rather difficult and the crops were taken in late. And it was not done properly. And this was later reflected on the situation in the whole region. Supplies were only possible through the bridge in Batina. That was the only physical link with Serbia and the other territories, and that is where goods came and went from mostly. ¹⁴¹²⁴

Q. Water and electricity, what was their availability?

A. As for electricity, the lines went towards Croatia. A compromise was struck between the TO staff in Baranja and the Croatian side so that electrical power could come in. And they promised not to attack the economic facilities or touch the economic facilities, those that were in the reach of the JNA or Serbian army.

Q. And finally, a couple of homey as it were examples, with the change of ethnic composition, would people still be able to meet on a multi-ethnic basis in public places like bars, or would there be any change in behaviour? And socially, did people change their behaviour so far as dealing with other ethnicities is concerned?

A. Now, whether we can say generally speaking that this took place, well, we could, but that depended on the environment itself. And as we said that Baranja was a multi-ethnic area, in the areas in which the Serbs had become the vast majority, situations of that type did arise from time to time. But in the other areas where the population remained mixed, this was not as evident. There was not so much evidence of polarisation on an ethnic basis.

MR. NICE: May we go into private session for paragraphs 14 and 18 to 20.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE:

Q. In the second half of 1991, was there a pattern of non-Serbs in Baranja being arrested? If so, in what circumstances and for what ¹⁴¹³² reasons?

A. At the beginning of the conflict, arrests were very frequent. There were no special criteria or rules in that respect. People -- non-Serbs were mostly arrested for various reasons, among others, their wealth or their affiliation with the HDZ, or because of certain unsettled accounts from the past of a legal nature or purely personal nature. Anyone who carried weapons would arrest others. And then towards the end of September and the beginning of October, as time went on, these arrests were reduced. Actually, a state -- the rule of law was established in the area.

Q. Until the return to that rule of law, where were these people detained? How were they treated?

A. The arrested people were taken to a Detention Centre in the SUP building in Beli Manastir where more or less all of them were mistreated physically and mentally. And then from that Detention Centre, they were sent to Dalj or Borovo Selo to be exchanged for captured persons on the Croatian side.

Q. That exchange, where it occurred, would have involved passage over one or other of the bridges at Batina or Erdut. Would that be correct?

A. The question isn't quite clear to me. Exchange? There were never exchanges on any of those bridges.

Q. Very well. My error. You've spoken of the exchange of these people. In the course of the exchange, would they have had to pass over one or other of those bridges in transports?

A. During the transport from Beli Manastir to Dalj or Borovo Selo, at ^{14133 BLANK PAGE 14134} Batina, at the Batina bridge, they had to leave Baranja, and then to enter the eastern parts of the territory of the Republic of Srpska Krajina and on to Dalj and Borovo Selo. They had to cross the bridge twice at Erdut the second time.

Q. At each of those bridges, were there representatives of Yugoslavia or Serbia who would have been in a position to see the transports and to discover what was on the transports?

A. In view of the fact that both bridges were protected on the Krajina side, by the Krajina police, and on the Yugoslav side, by the Yugoslav police, which also controlled the crossing of each persons. So I think that they were able to see what was going on.

Q. Approximately how many people, to your knowledge, were arrested and transferred or intended to be transferred in that way?

A. According to my information, which is not too precise, about 50 to 80 people were arrested and transported for the purpose of exchange during that period.

Q. Of those people, 50 to 80, were there any who were subsequently not accounted for and not seen again?

A. Yes. Quite a large number of the people intended to be exchanged were never exchanged.

Q. Did you obtain information later as to what happened to them?

A. Later we learned that those people were executed. Or rather, some were thrown into the Danube River; some were buried in mass graves.

Q. And finally on this topic, what was the particular vehicle or type of vehicle in which they were transported? ¹⁴¹³⁵

A. The vehicle was adjusted -- it was really used for the transport of forestry workers, like a lorry, which instead of a tarpaulin had a kind of container like a minibus, something like that.

MR. NICE: May we go into private session for the last time to deal with matters between paragraphs 23 and 28.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: May we have a map, please, which is much like the map we have at the moment but this is one that the witness can mark. And it will be... Thank you very much. Exhibit 326, tab 12.

JUDGE KWON: I think we need to exhibit it first.

THE REGISTRAR: That's the correct tab, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: ^{14143 BLANK PAGE 14144}

Q. If you can take a pen, please, on this map because we can't mark -- a bit further up, please. That's fine, thank you very much. You've referred to a place called Tikves. Is that also something connected to somewhere called Tito's castle?

A. The residence, yes.

Q. Can you just mark on this map roughly where it is. And also I think there's a national park of which this is a part.

A. [Marks]

Q. And that's the area of Tikves, is it?

A. Yes.

Q. In that area, what did you see of an anti-terrorism unit?

A. That unit was in Baranja on two occasions, twice; when the conflict broke out and sometime in 1995 as well. It was always located in -- within the compound of this residence of Tito's.

Q. On the first occasion -- and you haven't given the year, but on the first occasion, what was it doing, apparently?

A. When this unit turned up, or rather, the first contacts with the unit, were in the building itself, the MUP building in Beli Manastir. That was the first time that I saw the members of that particular unit, and they were wearing the red berets and different types of uniform, different to the ones we would see in our area most commonly. Some of them slept in the MUP building in Beli Manastir itself because there are dormitories in the building. And some of them would spend the night there and they would come into our office for a cup of coffee or tea or whatever. And when we talked to them, we learned why they were there, why ¹⁴¹⁴⁵ they had arrived.

In the Beli Manastir town itself at that time, certain groups of individuals terrorised the populace, if I can put it that way. There were problems that arose with respect to the division of the property that had been left behind; facilities, coffeeshops, pastry shops, et cetera. And this Red Beret group intervened several times over the next few days, and it shamed the local heavy men. They felt threatened with the arrival, with the advent of this unit, and how they were going about their business in Beli Manastir itself. It put to shame these thugs and bandits, local ones.

Q. And where had this group of men wearing red berets apparently come from?

A. They had come from Yugoslavia.

Q. When in Tito's residence or castle, how secure or sealed was that location?

A. Because of the specific features of the property itself, it lies in a physical area of forest, several hundred hectares. There are entrance gates or ramps which it is easy to control. And these units did control the area and permitted entry or banned entry into the property.

Q. Two other details about these troops: With what weapons were they equipped and what method of interpersonal communication did they have? What sort of radios and so on?

A. They had automatic rifles. That was standard. However, what was specific was that the rifle wasn't worn on a belt across the shoulder, but it was carried in the person's hand. And they also had communication ¹⁴¹⁴⁶ devices, Motorolas, et cetera, to be able to communicate amongst themselves, which was rather -- which only the TO and JNA -- which was very rather in TO and JNA units at that time.

Q. The second appearance of this group or men similarly attired was in 1995. What did they do then? Where did you first encounter them?

A. Well, in that particular year, they tried to sort of reeducate the people, if I can put it that way. They engaged in terror, intimidating the population. Because the Serbs had also left Baranja. Now, to prevent this from going on in the future, that unit sowed terror amongst the population, and they wanted the people to calm down, to stay put, and to train the young men who were of military age and who had not undergone military training. So there were training centres for soldiers. And there was another activity that the unit engaged in, and that was to legalise different vehicles, passenger vehicles, heavy duty vehicles. That means to do all the paperwork because those vehicles had arrived into the area through unlawful means. And so they did all the paperwork to make them -- to legalise them. And then they left the territory. Individuals -- there was a racketeering going on where extortions were made from the rich well-to-do Serbs in the area. They were blackmailed.

Q. Was there a Colonel Vasilje Mijovic, who was involved?

A. Yes.

Q. Exactly what did he do?

A. He was the direct commander of the unit. The unit's immediate commander.

Q. Did the unit have anything to do with local criminals? ¹⁴¹⁴⁷

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Well, in particular?

A. In particular, they tried to have the better-trained criminals work under them. So there were professionals for different things, like, for example, for stolen vehicles. This man Zeljko, nicknamed Gavro, was in change of them. Then there was Predrag Radetic, nicknamed Brada or "beard." There were weapons, professionals.

Q. You've touched on this already, but just to complete this part of your testimony, was there a transfer of property, as well as a seizing of property, was there a transfer of property out of the Baranja area; and if so, what part did these Red Berets have to play in that?

A. There was transfer of property both private and what was known as socially owned property. At one point in time, the Red Berets were the ones who controlled this going and coming of property and persons at the Batina bridge. And they had their own checkpoints that they set up on the communication lines along the roads running into Batina.

Q. There was in fact one other question that I ought to have got by way of detail. Did Colonel Mijovic establish two training centres? If so, where were they?

A. Yes, he did set up a training centre for young soldiers in the Baranja Petrovo Selo area and in the Knezevi Vinogradi.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Thank you, I'm sorry. The first can be seen towards the top left of the map on the overhead projector at the moment, and Knezevi can also be seen pretty well above and to the left of the blue ¹⁴¹⁴⁸ mark.

One exhibit for this witness to deal with. May we have a look at it, please.

Your Honour, it's a document that I hope to produce formally through another witness, and therefore I invite this witness's comment upon it. If the usher could be good enough to show the -- display the original, first of all, on the overhead projector, that is, the original in Cyrillic so that we can see what it is. The report page, which is about three pages from -- four pages from the back, just look at that, see what it is or what it appears to be. It's headed "Explanation" and it's called "Abuse of positions by members of the anti-terrorist operations." And if you now, please, Mr. Usher, detach the original and hand that to the witness and place the English version on the overhead projector. And I'll just read it, or some of it, and ask for comment.

Q. Witness C-025, this document in English reads, and you can follow it in the original: "The attached documentation shows some of the abuses on the part of the commander of the ATD, Colonel Mijovic, and other officers in smuggling, resale and taking of cars from Baranja." Next paragraph: "Through our sources, we have obtained access to a part of the documentation indicating and proving the illegal registration of vehicles most frequently stolen in European countries and brought to Baranja where their papers were legalised in something as an authorised service. There is no information in the safes about previous owners."

And then next paragraph: "Based on talks with a source, Mijovic ¹⁴¹⁴⁹ has so far taken away 25 to 27 vehicles."

Next paragraph but one: "Besides this through his man, a member of his unit whom they called Brada, or 'beard', Mijovic twice seriously threatened the head of the car registration service not to stick his nose into the papers too much. The man went to Mijovic's for treatment and is very frightened."

And then it goes on to make further allegations in general. You needn't look at it in detail, you've seen the document in preparation. Does the matter recorded here fit with, or not, your own experience of what this unit was doing?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you very much.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, may that be exhibited. It's promised to be established in due course.

JUDGE MAY: Mark it for identification. Get the next exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 357, marked for identification.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have the document. May I be given a copy.

MR. NICE: Sorry it didn't find its way to the accused already.

JUDGE MAY: It's at the bottom of your package of documents you got. But have another one.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, only if it was handed over ¹⁴¹⁵⁰ this morning, but I don't think so.

MR. NICE:

Q. Finally, paragraph 34, were you aware, Witness C-025, of killings in the region by men dressed in the uniform of milicija?

A. Yes.

Q. Were those killings investigated? Did anything ever happen to the perpetrators?

A. The perpetrators were never punished. I can't say 100 per cent that nobody was held accountable. The police did go to conduct on-the-crime-site investigations, and all the operations necessary in proceedings running up to bringing charges against the perpetrators.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to trouble with paragraph 35, although should anybody want to ask the witness about it, I would ask that it be done in closed session, for obvious reasons. In case there was an error or similar as a result of the way I asked a question, can I just go back to paragraph 8 on page 2.

Q. Remember, Witness C-025, we were talking about Crisis Staffs at an earlier stage, and I asked you about the appointment of the presidents of Crisis Staffs. Thinking back to that period of time, to your recollection, did the SDS party regularly or from time to time take any part in appointing the leadership of the Crisis Staffs?

A. This is how it was: When the conflicts broke out, the commanders of the Crisis Staffs were in those posts, according to the statutes of the local communities. When the conflict escalated or with the passage of time, and as the situation in Baranja changed, so did proportionately the ¹⁴¹⁵¹ influence wielded by the SDS party itself in all segments, and among others, this applied to the nomination and appointment of members to the Crisis Staffs, and they themselves would elect their president, or rather, their commander.

Q. Thank you, Witness C-025.

MR. NICE: That's all I ask.

JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Witness, why did you say previously that SDS had no influence over Crisis Staff? You remember the question asked by Mr. Nice, and you said no. Why was that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because I consider that we have two periods; the period prior to the breakout of the conflict and the period after the conflict had broken out, because the Crisis Staffs existed in peacetime before the war, as they did afterwards.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The registrar.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked map, the Prosecutor's Exhibit 326, tab 12, the marked map will be tab 12.C-025.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-025, is it true that you were given instructions as to the way you should testify here in The Hague?

A. I don't understand the question. I received in writing a piece of paper as to the way one testifies. It's in the witness room, how one should behave here. I don't understand your question. What kind of instructions are you referring to? ¹⁴¹⁵²

Q. Let me clarify my question. Apart from receiving instructions regarding behaviour in the courtroom, you're telling us that you did not receive any other instructions about the way you should testify here. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. And is it true that you had previous contact with representatives of POA, or the counter-intelligence agency from Zagreb? Do you know anything about that?

A. No.

Q. And do you know that the man you contacted -- his name is Snajder.

A. No, I don't know anyone by that name.

Q. You don't know Snajder from the counter-intelligence agency of Croatia?

A. No.

Q. Do you know his assistant, Vatroslav Vrdoljak?

A. No.

Q. So you didn't meet with him either?

A. No.

Q. Were there any conversations in which an operative of the centre of this counter-intelligence agency of theirs, that is, the security service of Osijek, Milenko Pekic and Josip N - so he's from your area - you never had any contact with him? You never saw him?

A. I do know Pekic.

Q. Who do you know? ^{14153 BLANK PAGE 14154}

A. I know Pekic.

Q. Only Pekic.

A. Yes.

Q. You don't know Josip.

A. No.

Q. And was this conversation over your preparations for testifying in The Hague?

A. Where? What do you mean? Where was this conversation?

Q. There was a conversation?

A. I'm asking you where. Can you be more specific.

Q. Do you assume there is information about that and tapes of those conversations? You probably don't know that.

A. No.

Q. Then please answer the following questions with precision. Is it true that on Wednesday, the 23rd of October, 2002, you received a telephone call by -- from Milenko Pekic who made an appointment with you for the next day at 7.45, that you should meet near the centre for the counter-intelligence agency in Osijek because you needed to go to Zagreb for a meeting with the bosses of this agency to discuss your coming to The Hague? Is it true that he phoned -- that Pekic Milenko phoned you on the 23rd of October, made an appointment with you for the next day, and from there, you were to go to Zagreb?

A. No.

Q. As in those days, the plan was for you to go to The Hague at the beginning of November. Is it true that he told you that you had to report ¹⁴¹⁵⁵ to the OTP on the 6th of November, 2002, and that you would be staying there until the 11th of November, 2002?

A. No.

Q. No, fine. Very well. Who asked Pekic to do this and who asked some influence to be brought to bear on you, we'll come to that later. Is it true that on Thursday, on the 24th of October at the appointed time, in front of the centre of the security service, now called the counter-intelligence agency, you met with Pekic and a certain Josip, on the 24th of October, 2002? Please be very precise and try and refresh your memory.

A. I meet Mr. Pekic very frequently because we go fishing together. As for Mr. Josip, no.

Q. And did you meet this Pekic that you meet often on the 24th of October in front of the centre where he works in Osijek?

A. No.

Q. You meet often, but you're sure that you didn't meet on that particular occasion?

A. Because I don't go to that building. We meet because we both have boats tied close to one another.

Q. Very well. And did you go to Zagreb in an official vehicle, a Golf IV vehicle, with Zagreb license plates, and that during the trip, you were told that in Zagreb you would be talking to the bosses and that these would be good people and that you were free to ask them anything you want and that you should not be cautious about anything, that you can talk to them freely? Do you remember that conversation? ¹⁴¹⁵⁶

A. No.

Q. And is it true that upon arriving in Zagreb, you went to the brewery called Medvedgrad not far from the Vatroslav Lisinski concert hall, where two persons were waiting for you?

A. No. I went to Sesvete, to a motel to spend the night there.

Q. So you went to Sesvete to a motel there. What its name?

A. Antunovic. There's a petrol station and a motel right next to one another.

Q. Were two people waiting for you there?

A. No.

Q. Well, why did you go to that motel in Sesvete?

A. To spend the night there for the trip to come here because I had an early flight.

Q. And is it true that this person who travelled with you introduced you to his boss and said that his name was Snajder, and then to his assistant who introduced himself by the name of Vrdoljak?

A. No, I don't know them.

Q. So you didn't meet with them?

A. No.

Q. And is it true that after a brief introduction, Snajder addressed you and thanked you for agreeing to testify and for your overall efforts and said that he was aware of your work and the assistance you were giving the service?

A. I don't know anything about any such meeting.

Q. And do you know that you are here under oath to tell the truth? ¹⁴¹⁵⁷

A. Yes, but I don't know those people you are referring to.

Q. And is it true that on that occasion, this boss told you that he was aware of the problems you had at work, but that you should forget those problems because they wouldn't be repeated?

A. I have to say no once again.

Q. So you didn't talk to anyone about this?

A. Those people that you are mentioning, I don't know.

Q. Well who did you talk to?

A. When?

Q. On that occasion in that motel and on your way to Zagreb and when you spoke about the preparations for coming here.

A. I didn't talk to anyone linked to preparations and to coming here.

Q. And is it true that later on, Snajder said that he had read your whole statement given to the investigators and that he would suggest that should there be a chance that you should emphasise that the preparations for the aggression started as early as 1989 by the JNA against the Republic of Croatia?

A. I don't know what you're talking about.

Q. Was a suggestion made to you to speak about certain operations, Proboj 1, 2, 3, et cetera? Did you talk about these things with anyone at all?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember that there was one linked to Slovenia?

A. I'm not aware of those operations that you are mentioning. ¹⁴¹⁵⁸

Q. Very well. And did anyone suggest to you that you should say that it was quite clear some time ago that the crisis could not be resolved by peaceful means and that the JNA started arming and contacting Serb extremists and party leaders long ago? Was that suggestion made to you or not? Just say yes or no.

A. I don't know what you're talking about. No one made any suggestions of any kind to me.

Q. And did they tell you that as a witness, you will not be talking about specific cases but that you should highlight the chain of command, that is, give examples how Mijovic's unit was under some sort of administration in Belgrade and received orders from it? Were you told to say that?

A. No. No one talked to me in connection with my preparations.

Q. And who drove you to the Zagreb airport?

A. I went in my own car. In my own car.

Q. You drove there yourself?

A. Yes, and it's parked at the airport.

Q. Very well. And Pekic didn't go with you?

A. No.

Q. Was this on the 6th of November?

A. I don't know the exact date now. But anyway, I drove in my van, my own car.

Q. And they didn't leave you their telephone numbers or e-mail address or anything for contact?

A. I do have Mr. Pekic's telephone number. But that is on a private ¹⁴¹⁵⁹ basis.

Q. So privately, you do mix, you do socialise. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is his position?

A. I don't know exactly his position. I know the work he does.

Q. And what kind of work does he do?

A. He's working in the former state security; that is, SZU.

Q. So in the current state security as well, but it's no longer called that. It's called the counter-intelligence agency?

A. Yes. SZU with the new name that it now has.

Q. And were you told then that Pekic had been given instructions to provide counter-intelligence protection for you, and he also gave instructions to give misinformation should your identity be disclosed?

A. I don't know anything about that.

Q. And that that misinformation should be made public through the media and through radio Glas Slavonije. Did he tell you anything along those lines?

A. No.

Q. Then how, or rather let me correct myself. In what way do they take part in providing protective measures? You're a protected witness, and you're living over there. So how does the service we're referring to participate in providing protective measures for you? Is it just through Pekic or do you have contacts with any other people in connection with those protective measures?

MR. NICE: Your Honours I'm very concerned about this line of ¹⁴¹⁶⁰ cross-examination bearing in mind the witness is corrected.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, doesn't seem to be of any relevance anyway. So move on to another topic, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that with regard to credibility of this witness, it is indeed relevant whether he had first been instructed by the Croatian intelligence service regarding his testimony.

JUDGE MAY: He's denied that. Now what you can't ask, because it may compromise his own security, is details of that security. It's not relevant. What you can ask is what connection, if any, he has with that state security service. You can ask him that if you want.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And did they tell you when you left the country your passport would not be stamped so there wouldn't be any traces, and if they do stamp your passport here that you would have to have it exchanged when you got back?

A. No. And there is a stamp in my passport.

Q. Very well. But let me ask you quite precisely: Is it true that most of the information you have given in your testimony is actually information of the Croatian service, especially the information regarding some criminal offences of which you had mostly heard about, as you said in the examination-in-chief?

A. No. The information comes from my own life, my own memory, and from my operational work during that period. ¹⁴¹⁶¹

Q. Yes. But you were not able directly to collect such information through your direct work in the area.

A. These are all persons from my surroundings, most of whom I knew.

Q. Very well. So you're claiming in your statement on page 2, last paragraph, that the SDS influenced the activities of the TO in Baranja. Were you a member of the SDS?

A. No.

Q. Then how can you assert that when you were not a member or a member of the SDS leadership? How do you know to what extent they were influential over certain institutions?

A. I knew people who were in the SDS that I collaborated with closely.

Q. So you heard this from people in the SDS?

A. Yes.

Q. And was there any other party in Beli Manastir?

A. In that period - in 1991 - no, later yes.

Q. Well, in 1990, there was the League of Communists of Croatia as far as I know, and later it was renamed the SDP. And most of the population voted for the League of Communists of Croatia in 1990. Isn't that right?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And later, was the socialist party formed in Beli Manastir?

A. I'm not sure about that. I don't remember. (redacted)

A. There were attempts for parties to develop, but the SDS took a ¹⁴¹⁶² decision that all this should be stopped until better times, that the SDS should remain as the only party. And then later on others could be formed.

Q. Very well. Let us now go on --

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question at 11.12.06.08 transgresses the rule about closed session. We've got to be very careful in this case.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know why this mystery, Mr. May, because this witness is not saying anything that he himself saw.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So very well. The SDS had the greatest influence. And evidence on that is on your second page, the meeting of local staff of the TO at Jagodnjak at which two from the SDS leadership from present. When there was a discussion about the Bilje operation. Is it true that you were not present at that meeting?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. Since you were not present at that meeting, how do you know what was discussed and who was present?

A. Because the commander of my staff was there. And I learned about it from him, talking to him.

Q. So the commander of your staff briefed you about everything that happened at that meeting where they were discussing some sort of an operation?

A. About the most important points, that one of my task and that of ¹⁴¹⁶³ him and some other people was to try and find 40 men to take part in that operation.

Q. Very well. And on the basis of what did you come to the conclusion that apart from the presence of those two SDS officials, that they were giving instructions to the TO commanders what they should do, or were they among themselves agreeing on what should be done to strengthen the defence of Baranja?

A. I didn't hear about the operative part of the meeting, nor was that of any interest to me. That is actually what they agreed on at the meeting.

Q. So you don't know what competencies were determined at that meeting; you're just saying that two SDS officials were present at the meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. So you don't know what their role was, nor whether they gave instructions for that operation or not?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell me, please, in connection with this allegation that you made again on page 2, last paragraph, regarding the conflict between the TO and the Croatian paramilitary grouping in Bilje, in August 1991, is it true that Bilje was a stronghold of the MUP and the National Guards Corps, the Zengas, ZNGs, in those days?

A. Yes.

Q. This concentration of the guards, the Croatian guards, and the ^{14164 BLANK PAGE 14165} MUPs, was it a threat to the population in the area?

A. I'm not sure you could say that outside the village of Bilje since there was a kind of separation line already around the village of Bilje.

Q. So what they were doing, they did on their side of that separation line?

A. Yes.

Q. So they didn't breakthrough your line of separation?

A. No.

Q. So there wasn't a single case of that?

A. There may have been sporadic exchanges of fire, but no breakthrough or any serious operations.

Q. What does exchange of fire mean? Did they open fire at you?

A. Yes, there was shooting from both sides.

Q. And is it correct to be more specific about this event that it was there a conflict occurred between local Serbs and Croats in Bilje?

A. I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

Q. In August 1991, was there an attack by the Croatian National Guards Corps and the MUP on the Serbs in Bilje or not?

A. There were attacks, but several Serbs entered the village of Bilje. And as they recognised one another, their identities were disclosed, and then fire was opened. And two or three Serbs were killed in Bilje.

Q. I see, two Serbs were killed in Bilje.

A. Yes, because they entered from other villages to enter Bilje, and they knew that the separation line was there and that the Zengas and the ¹⁴¹⁶⁶ MUP were in Bilje.

Q. I see. So they knew they were there, and because these two Serbs entered the village, they were killed there?

A. Yes, but they entered armed. One was even wearing a MUP uniform, that is, the uniform of the Croatian police, and he was a Serb.

Q. And those two, did they go there to attack Bilje?

A. I don't know what their intention was. They went there on their own initiative. They didn't report to anyone.

Q. Why did the two of them go to Bilje? Surely those two didn't go to attack Bilje when there was such a concentration of MUP and Zengas in Bilje. They didn't expect, I suppose, anyone to shoot at them.

A. Possibly because they were wearing this uniform they didn't expect to be recognised.

Q. They wore uniforms just as the others were wearing uniforms, they were working in the police, were they not?

A. Yes, but they came to Serb territory.

Q. No you said they came to Croatian territory?

A. Let me put it this way: They were staying in a territory over which the Serbs had control, and then they entered a territory under Croatian control.

Q. What were they by profession?

A. One was an inspector in the Croatian MUP, and the other one, I don't know.

Q. He was a policeman?

A. I'm not sure. I know about this one. ¹⁴¹⁶⁷

Q. So you know about this one. And let's leave the other one aside, that you're not sure about. But this one you know about was an inspector in the Croatian MUP?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was wearing the uniform of the Croatian MUP so he didn't put on anybody else's uniform. He wore the uniform of the institution he was employed in.

A. Yes.

Q. And he was killed because he was a Serb. Isn't that right? Or because he attacked Bilje all on his own?

A. Before he attacked Bilje himself, he had left the Croatian MUP. He had crossed over into the other territory.

Q. And then he attacked Bilje alone? I see. And did you hear that on the 17th of August, 1991, Milos Zivanovic was killed in Bilje?

A. I'm not aware of that.

Q. You don't know anything about that?

A. No.

Q. How many Serbs were living in Bilje?

A. Well, maybe some 20 per cent.

Q. And how many would that be, 20 per cent Serbs in Bilje?

A. Well, Bilje has about 4 to 4 and a half thousand inhabitants.

Q. Fine. If that is the population, 20 per cent would be shall we say 4.800. Is that right?

Did the Zengas and MUPs terrorise the Serbs?

A. Yes, most Serbs had left. Some did stay behind. But I can't be ¹⁴¹⁶⁸ more precise in telling you exactly the number of Serbs that stayed and the number that fled.

Q. Why did they flee Bilje?

A. Why did the Croats flee from Baranja? Nobody was hurting them.

Q. I know that no one was hurting the Croats in Baranja. But just a moment ago, I'm glad you have confirmed that. A moment ago you said that where the environment was more or less purely Serb, there was more demonstration against, and more chaotic, and where there was a mixed population, the situation was -- the relationships were more tolerant. So in mixed environments, people were not aggressive towards each other, and they led a normal life.

A. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: The time has come for a break. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: You have an hour and ten minutes, if you want it, Mr. Milosevic, with this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in the information which I received for this witness, it said that the opposite side plans to have -- to conduct its examination-in-chief for six hours. Now quite suddenly, that examination-in-chief was radically reduced so that I have many more questions than would be possible for me to put in the hour and ten minutes you've just allotted me.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, you make a start, and if necessary, we'll ¹⁴¹⁶⁹ review the position at the end.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall continue according to the notes I have made.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, you spoke about the Crisis Staffs. Is it true that the existence of the Crisis Staffs was pursuant to the laws prevalent in Yugoslavia at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also true that the Crisis Staffs commanders were members of the local government authorities, that is to say, as a rule, the presidents of the executive councils of those municipalities would be members of the Crisis Staff?

A. Are you asking before the conflict took place or after the conflict.

Q. I am talking about how it was pursuant to the law and how the de facto state was.

A. The presidents of the local communities as a rule were Crisis Staff commanders.

Q. Well, did they continue to do later on, the presidents of the local communities?

A. No, the beginning of August or rather the end of September, the military and civilian functions were separated. Crisis Staffs for civil matters were set up and Crisis Staffs for military matters were set up.

Q. And do you know that on the 17th of August, 1991, a meeting was held of the Crisis Staff in Beli Manastir at which were present in ¹⁴¹⁷⁰ addition to the members of the Crisis Staff all the former presidents of the Municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir and the former deputies and most of them were Croats, deputies of the Croatian parliament?

A. No.

Q. All right. Do you happen to know that the kommandir, the MUP commander, head, or chief, whatever you'd like to call him, in Beli Manastir was Prdogut Ante, a Croat, and after the Crisis Staff meeting was held on that same day, the 17th of August, in Beli Manastir, said quite literally the following, I understood the contents of the meeting differently, I expected you to give me permission to raze Jagodnjak to the ground, and Jagodnjak is a fairly large Serbian village otherwise with many Serb inhabitants. And he asked that he be allowed to raze it to the ground, and he said he would be able to complete this within a space of 24 hours, that he had the strength and power to do that. Do you know anything about that?

A. No, I do not know.

Q. And is it true that the command of the Crisis Staff in Beli Manastir was Lazar Brnovic, who did not take up that position following the chain of the Serbian Democratic Party but was nominated by the official Croatian organs and he otherwise was of Montenegrin by ethnicity?

A. Yes, before the war, the TO municipality Crisis Staff.

Q. I see. The TO municipality Crisis Staff, you say. Very well. Now, in view of the fact that you yourself dealt with the organisation of the TO during the examination-in-chief, you also mentioned the relationship with the JNA and with the JNA. Do you know that the Yugoslav ¹⁴¹⁷¹ state presidency, following a proposal of the federal Secretariat for National Defence, already in 1986 passed a decision to reform the command of the army into the command of the military districts under whose command was the TO in the district, on that territory?

A. No.

Q. So you don't know that that was done because during the mass movement Croatia attempted to arm --

MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... no point in going on.

JUDGE MAY: No, I agree. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, do you know that the republican staffs of Territorial Defence were subordinate to the federal Secretariat for National Defence?

A. Yes.

Q. So the republican staffs of the Territorial Defence were not, by the same token, under the competencies of the presidents of the Republics or the governments of Republics, but they came under the federal government and its institution the Secretariat for National Defence, isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also right that the municipal Territorial Defence was responsible to the Territorial Defence in Zagreb right up to the creation of SAO Krajina, Baranja, and Western Srem?

A. Yes. ¹⁴¹⁷²

Q. And that republican staff was subordinated to the federal National Defence Secretariat. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also true that the weapons from the Beli Manastir Territorial Defence staff was transferred to the barracks in Beli Manastir for security purposes exclusively?

A. Yes.

Q. You're talking about the Garrison, you mentioned the garrison, and you were asked about the presence of the JNA and where the JNA had come from, come to be there. Is it clear that the JNA didn't come from anywhere because the JNA was on the territory as a regular army throughout a period of 50 years?

A. I said in my presentation that there was a stationed unit of the JNA in Beli Manastir, and that a portion that was not linked to Baranja was in -- at the Batina bridge.

Q. So the Beli Manastir garrison was a border garrison that catered to the border huts along the Yugoslav state borders between Yugoslavia and Hungary. Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this was entrusted to the army to protect and defend because there was a danger of the uncontrolled use of weapons on the part of the local inhabitants. Isn't that right?

A. Probably.

Q. And do you know that at the beginning of 1990, there were attempts to turn the TO of Croatia into a Croatian army? ¹⁴¹⁷³

A. Through the media, what I was able to learn that way.

Q. And do you know or did you hear about the fact that General Spegelj, in his book "The Recollection of Soldiers" noted himself that in Croatia what came to be understood was that the TO of Croatia was in fact Croatian army?

A. I have not read the book, but I saw the tape linked to Mr. Spegelj, the footage of that.

Q. All right. And do you remember that the idea to turn the TO of Croatia into a Croatian army was not an original concept of those present-day people, but at the beginning of the 1970s, the leaders of the mass ^ epoch, the mass movement, endeavoured to form the youth units and the republican organs would have all the power and authority over them. I assume you know about that?

A. Well, I know something about that.

Q. And do you know that in those 1970s, the public prosecutor of the Republic of Croatia proposed that any chauvinistic outbreaks --

MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I, while I'm on my feet, make this point: The accused seems to think that because there was an estimate of six hours at some stage, presumably based on the length of the witness statement, that gives him some right to six hours. The entitlement of an accused person is to cross-examine on the basis of the evidence in chief prima facie. We would resist any suggestion that he's simply entitled to a figure that was an original estimate. His cross-examination must be responsive, broadly speaking, to the examination-in-chief.

JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for the Trial Chamber. This is an ^{14174 BLANK PAGE 14175} accused in person. He must be entitled to some latitude facing, as he is, extremely serious charges. On the other hand, there is most certainly a limit, as he knows, on the time which he will have available. It most certainly won't be six hours. Try and finish in the time that we've suggested, Mr. Milosevic.

I'll consult.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we can sit until 2.00, and we'll give you until then to deploy your cross-examination. So you should aim to make your main points fairly early on to ensure that they are covered.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, it is very difficult for me now at this juncture to restructure my questions while I'm conducting the cross-examination itself.

JUDGE MAY: You do not -- don't be misled by any of the time estimates which the Prosecution give. Sometimes they are out on the grounds that they are far too short, and other times they are too long. But move on. It would be helpful, rather than general questions, some of which can be proved by evidence and some of which are matters which we've heard about before, if you concentrated on the specific questions which you can ask this witness which he's likely to know about of his own knowledge.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Fine.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that the main staff of the Territorial Defence of Baranja had handed out weapons to the local TO units pursuant to the laws ¹⁴¹⁷⁶ that were in force at the time? And you have this on page 3, last paragraph of your statement.

A. Yes.

Q. You mentioned the fact that individuals frequently looted and that property was taken.

A. Yes.

Q. Did the police take any steps to prevent this, to stop this, and was it indeed halted?

A. Gradually, yes. At the very beginning of the conflict, it was impossible to prevent this from happening. However, as time went by and until the end of 1991, this was reduced to some legal frameworks and perpetrators were prosecuted.

Q. So when the atmosphere was one of chaos at the very beginning of the conflict, it wasn't possible for them to stop this, but then later measures bore fruit and that unlawful acts were stopped. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you personally see anybody taking off somebody else's property anywhere?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you see, for example? Tell us.

A. Well, on several occasions, I saw furniture being taken away, appliances, household appliances, and even tractors, sewing machines, livestock.

Q. And where did the people take all this off to; home?

A. Yes, they took it to their own homes. ¹⁴¹⁷⁷

Q. This was the local population that did that, wasn't it?

A. Yes, the population, the inhabitants.

Q. All right. Is it true that in Baranja after the elections held in 1990, a referendum was organised at which most of the population voted for the option that if Baranja proclaimed itself to be independent, that it should remain within Yugoslavia nonetheless?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that none of you at the time spoke about any kind of Greater Serbia; people wanted to live in Yugoslavia, isn't that right?

A. Yes, and we stated our views through the referendum.

Q. This was a multi-ethnic environment, and most of the population of different ethnic groups reacted in that way?

A. Yes, the majority won the referendum.

Q. So not only the Serbs.

A. That's right, not only the Serbs.

Q. I'm now going to skip over a few questions which I don't feel are indispensable, in view of the curtailed time that I have, although they are all important questions, you said on page 3 of your statement, paragraph 4, that after those first elections, the Serbs became afraid that Croatia would proclaim its independence. Why were the Serbs afraid of that independence on the part of Croatia?

A. Well, I don't know. It was a kind of popular opinion, opinion held by the majority of Serbs. And I'm sure this has its historical roots.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I ¹⁴¹⁷⁸ think it would be highly beneficial if Your Honours did have a copy of the statement given to the investigators for the Prosecution because Mr. Slobodan Milosevic has referred back to the statement several times. It is dated the 10th of March, 2001. That was the date of the interview.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, you said that there was some sort of fear. Tell me, did the expulsion of the Serbs from the constitution of Croatia as a constituent peoples in 1990 and the abolishment of the Cyrillic script, and schools for Serb children, the discriminatory laws, and the series of events that followed, were those reasons why the Serbs feared living in an independent Croatia?

A. I think so, yes. But in view of the referendum, it wasn't only the Serbs that took part in the referendum, I think that others shared that opinion, too.

Q. Well, that's what we're talking about, it was precisely in that multi-ethnic environment that we had great support for Yugoslavia, not only the part of the Serbs but on the part of the Hungarians, Croats, and other ethnicities living in the area. Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you happen to know that in only four months, June, July, August, and September of 1990 in Croatia, over 10.000 Serbs were dismissed from their jobs?

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. And do you know when the decision was made to set up the Croatian National Guard Corps, and how this formation of the Croatian National ¹⁴¹⁷⁹ Guard Corps affected the general mood that prevailed amongst the population, not only Serbs but all the inhabitants living in Baranja?

A. Well, I don't know the details about its establishment, but I refer back to the referendum. I assume it was formed on the basis of some sort of groundwork.

Q. All right. And is it true that the decision taken by the Croatian leadership to import weapons from abroad illegally and to withdraw what was in the hands of the police force with Serb police members, did this affect the deterioration of the political situation in Croatia?

A. Possibly, yes. I don't really know.

Q. And is it true, do you happen to remember a decision taken by the Yugoslav State Presidency at the beginning of January 1991 to disarm the paramilitary units, among which the Croatian National Guard Corps was the first, so-called Zengas, that was never put into practice and the Zengas were never disarmed. But do you remember that decision?

A. Well I don't recall the decision but I do know that kind of topic, this issue, was written about by the information media.

Q. And is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical as time went by, and that the elements found their inspiration in the former independent state of Croatia had come to the fore?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know about Tudjman's statement that there would only be 5 per cent Serbs in Croatia in the final analysis?

A. Well, this was bandied about by the media.

Q. And was the fear that the population felt in Baranja precisely for ¹⁴¹⁸⁰ all these reasons the proclamation of independence, et cetera, was it the reason for which the SAO Slavonia, Western Srem and Baranja was proclaimed?

A. Quite possibly, but the decision was to remain within the frameworks of Yugoslavia itself.

Q. And what about the proclamation of the region? Did it mean that these regions de facto had separated and seceded from Croatia?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true that those regions had their own organs, institutions, government, police force, army, et cetera?

A. Yes.

Q. And those regions were de facto and de jure regions outside Serbia. I don't suppose that's in dispute?

A. That's right.

Q. Is it also true that in the Territorial Defence for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, were only local inhabitants who actually lived in the area, they were members of that body?

A. There were some volunteers too, from Vojvodina.

Q. Volunteers you say who had family ties?

A. Well, family ties or ties of friendship, ties of that kind.

Q. Well, you're just saying what I said a moment ago. You say it on page 3, paragraph 2, of your statement, and in the last paragraph as well of page 4, paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 of your statement you say precisely that, that there were only locals living in the area.

A. Well, most of them, the vast majority were. All military able men ¹⁴¹⁸¹ from the ages of 18 to 60 --

JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the statement.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the law in force at the time all able-bodied men between 18 and 60 years of age responded to the mobilisation call.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)

(redacted)

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that on the 25th of August, 1991, there was a session of pro-Yugoslav parties --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: The question at 13.02.53 transgresses the rule.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Mr. Milosevic, don't ask questions like that except in private session, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This does not reveal the identity of the witness, Mr. May. There's so many people here from the area.

JUDGE MAY: It may reveal where he comes from. Anything that's liable to do that, you should be aware of.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that on the 25th of August, there was a meeting of pro-Yugoslav parties? This was their coordinating committee, with several members of the staff of the TO of Baranja. Are you aware of that meeting held on the 25th of August, 1991? ¹⁴¹⁸²

A. No, I don't remember.

Q. No?

A. I don't remember.

Q. And are you aware of a meeting at which a decision was taken on the appointment of the executive council of Beli Manastir, the secretary of the SUP, and various other appointments were confirmed for the commanders of the TO in Baranja and agreement reached on the distribution of positions, those responsible for civilian affairs, the TO towards the border with Croatia, all these things were discussed at the meeting that was held on that date? You don't know anything about that?

A. I don't remember that meeting, but I do remember when these appointments were made.

Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, there were talks between representatives of the authorities, the SUP and the TO of Beli Manastir and Valpovo, Valpovo which is in Croatia? And their main options, the options of the meeting, were to create conditions of life free of conflict, free of violence, the aim being to ensure conditions for the peaceful life of all the inhabitants of the region. Do you remember that?

A. No. I don't know about that meeting, but I assume in my earlier testimony I did refer to something linked to electricity supply. And that was linked to that meeting, I think. Should electricity be cut, a countermeasure could be action against economic enterprises.

Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, over Beli Manastir radio, it was announced that all citizens who had sought refuge, and the ¹⁴¹⁸³ majority were Croats, could return to their homes and that they are free to harvest their fields and gardens, that they can sow wheat normally, and a special call was made to those from the Belje agricultural combine because there was a lot of work to do on the fields. Do you remember that?

A. No, I don't know. I didn't hear that report, though the situation was such as to warrant such measures.

Q. And do you know that on that same day, that is, the 30th of August, when over Beli Manastir radio, there was this call for the refugees, Croatian refugees to return, that members of the Zengas opened fire on the Serbian villages of Jagodnjak and Poljeman [phoen]?

A. There were frequent exchanges of fire. I can't tell you the exact dates, but there were frequent exchanges of mortar fire in that area.

Q. And do you know that on that same day, a sabotage group of the Zengas with 60-millimetre mortars and rifle grenades, and it was headed by Stevo Kitak [phoen], a policeman, attacked the Jelen estate, that is, the Djitica [phoen] plant, which is also known as Pustara?

A. There were several such sabotage actions, planting of trip mines, and anti-armour mines, and they came too close to our positions because the line itself was quite unusual, there was a no man's land covered with thick woods and brush.

Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas on the 2nd of September kidnapped Savo Sekanic, a Serb, a peasant from Jagodnjak, and that the International Red Cross was informed about it?

A. Yes. ^{14184 BLANK PAGE 14185}

Q. And do you know or had you heard that on the 3rd of September, 1991, from the Croatian leadership through Glavas, an order was issued for the collective emigration of the Croats from Bilje but that only the men of military age should stay behind. Do you remember that order of theirs?

A. No.

Q. Very well. Can we agree that in Baranja in general, there was very little military activity?

A. Yes.

Q. You mentioned in your examination-in-chief KOG. What is KOG, K-O-G?

A. Counterintelligence group engaged in counterintelligence in the field, and it may also cover civilians, because according to the law of National Defence, all men of -- able-bodied men of military age are subject to that law on defence and can be covered by KOG. The military service was divided into operatives outside the barracks which were in plainclothes and people in uniform in the barracks.

Q. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I misheard you, please correct me if I did. You mentioned that KOG armed the Serb population. Did you say that or not?

A. The associates of KOG would receive truckloads of weapons. When I say associates, those associates became associates after they were armed. I knew who were the men who obtained weapons, but I didn't know what they represented.

Q. And did you get weapons from that group that you mentioned?

A. No. ¹⁴¹⁸⁶

Q. And were you ever present when KOG armed anyone?

A. No, I wasn't present. Physically I was not present there.

Q. And you say that the counterintelligence group supervised the reserve JNA force. What kind of supervision do you mean? You mention this on page 41 but last paragraph in the sense of counterintelligence protection, they were able to apply all methods, informative interviews, technical methods and so on.

Q. So you mean that the service was collecting intelligence information which is its normal work, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 4, you mentioned that somebody called Dragisa Radic, Stojan Sekanic, and Damir Zuzic, Rajko Mrdja, all from the area. One is from Darda, the other from Knezevo, the other from Batina, from Beli Manastir, that they were collaborators of the KOG. Did you personally see them engaged in any specific activities as part of that collaboration? What is the grounds for you to say that?

A. Through subsequent work in the field, we would meet. Operatives of the state security and operatives of KOG on the same assignments.

Q. And is it true that in June 1991, I will not mention the name of the local inhabitant because this could reveal your identity or be considered to reveal your identity, you received an M48 rifle, a rifle that was no longer in use in the JNA. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he an SDS activist?

A. Yes. ¹⁴¹⁸⁷

Q. Was he a leader?

A. No, because his professional duty was something else.

Q. Very well. You say that the JNA in June or July 1991 captured the Batina bridge. And on the 25th or 26th of July, 1991, it captured Knezevi Vinogradi, or took control of it. Is there any dispute that in the period you're referring to, the SFRY was still in existence at the time the president of the Presidency was even Stjepan Mesic? So what kind of capture are you talking about? You mean that it controlled the bridge and the area?

A. One could accept such a change of the wording.

Q. And is it true that the JNA came to the areas where there were conflicts between Serbs and Croats, precisely those areas?

A. Could you clarify that question, please.

Q. Is it true that it came to the areas where there were clashes between Serbs and Croats, in order to separate the two sides and to prevent conflicts between them?

A. In Baranja, there was only one such example, though in Baranja, there were virtually no conflicts during the takeover. The only conflict was in Beli Manastir between MUP units and armed Serbs which was stopped through the activity of armoured vehicles which didn't open fire but were set in motion.

Q. I see. So the army started the vehicles in order to preempt a conflict between the MUP of Croatia and the Serb territorials. It didn't even open fire, but as soon as the vehicles appeared, things calmed down and there were no conflicts. There were no other conflicts, were there? ¹⁴¹⁸⁸

A. No.

Q. I'm glad we've cleared that up. So what that means is the JNA did not interfere in those conflicts but prevented them on both sides?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. And do you know that on the 6th of September, 1991, the inhabitants of Baranja formed two brigades and one artillery division because they were dissatisfied with the failure of the JNA to engage? Is that right or not?

A. I don't know about the date, but what you said is right, is true.

Q. And do you perhaps know - though this is not in Baranja itself, that's why I'm asking you whether you may know, perhaps - that a JNA unit was positioned in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991, between the clashing parties, virtually saved the Croatian police and paramilitary groups from total defeat and much greater casualties that could have occurred, that in that case, too, it acted to appease the tension and to put a stop to mutual fighting.

A. Yes, it immediately stopped hostilities. (redacted)

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MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]...

JUDGE MAY: We'll go into closed session for this.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since you mentioned that some Croatian families went missing from your immediate vicinity, I should like to ask you whether you know that in the course of 1990, Branimir Glovac, the Osijek Jupan, or "count," on behalf of the HDZ, distributed in the municipalities of Slavonia very powerful military explosive called Vitezit. And the Croatian press reported about this, among others. Do you know anything about the blowing up of Serb houses? Do you know that some people even changed their first and last names, and do you know how many houses were blown up? Do you know anything at all about those events?

A. Yes, I do have some knowledge linked to such events, ranging from the blowing up of Serb houses, business premises owned by Serbs, the ¹⁴²¹¹ political newspaper offices, et cetera. There were such events.

Q. Do you know exactly where they occurred?

A. In the area of Osijek. This was closer to me and I was more familiar with the situation there.

Q. And are you familiar with the expression that was in use by -- I don't know how else to call them but terrorists or extremists in Eastern Slavonia, and members of these Ustasha formations which openly call themselves Ustashas and carried the letter "U" on them? Had you ever heard of them?

A. Yes.

Q. Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. You had heard about them. And do you know the expression they used from that time and from that area, that the Serbs had floated down to Serbia. Does that mean along the Danube?

A. In our case, along the Drava.

Q. Of how many cases had you heard?

A. I heard of some more prestigious Osijek doctors, physicians. Maybe I heard of seven or eight such cases, of more prestigious Serbs in Osijek.

Q. I see. So Serbs who were prestigious, who were not members of any kind of militant structure or who could not be accused of any kind of militant attitude were killed and thrown into the Drava?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware that only from the Beli Manastir municipality alone, ¹⁴²¹² 57 persons were killed and went missing in the period 1991 to 1993? I'm talking only about Serbs now.

A. Are you talking about the municipality of Beli Manastir or Beli Manastir itself?

Q. Municipality of Beli Manastir.

A. Yes.

Q. There is also data of Veritas. I suppose you had occasion to see them?

A. No.

Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas, across the Hungarian border, with the permission of the Hungarian authorities, crossed into Baranja on two occasions, the first time on the 30th of September, 1991, and the second time the 30th of November, 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened?

A. This is an area that we've already mentioned, around the village of Torjanci which it was very difficult to control because of the swamp land there. And the Croatian army, across Hungarian territory, crossed over with the aim of taking control of the frontier posts in the area.

Q. And do you know that each and every one of them were captured precisely by the Territorial Defence and then handed over via the JNA to the Croatian side again? In other words, they were released, to return to their homes unscathed?

A. Yes, I'm aware of that. They entered a mine field, and they surrendered so as to avoid getting killed. ¹⁴²¹³

Q. But nobody got killed. Is that right?

A. No, no one did.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, it is true.

Q. And do you know that on the 30th of November, 1991, in the village of Torjanci in Baranja, members of that same army, the National Guards Corps, slaughtered a number of gypsies?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you know about that event? This was also in Baranja?

A. I know that they entered, and these were mostly locals who had left the village. They came back and spent the night in their own village. And during the night, they killed some people among whom most were non-Serbs. And again, there was an attempt to capture the border post and to stop a lorry transporting bread to that border post and to use that truck for that purpose, but they didn't succeed, though there were casualties.

Q. So the Croatian forces killed 25 persons in the village of Torjanci. Do you know that?

A. I'm not sure about the number, but there were victims. I think that the number 25 occurred in another operation on the 3rd of April, 1992.

Q. That's precisely what I'm talking about. This is a second operation. When they slit the throat of these gypsies, this was a previous operation in the same region. And then on the 3rd of April, 1992, they again attacked the same area and killed 25 persons. ¹⁴²¹⁴

A. Yes, this time also they came through the territory of Hungary. They used some anti-armour vehicles and came behind the back of the separation lines.

Q. Are you aware of their killing Zeljko Negovanovic on the 21st of August in the factory of cattle feed? He was working, he wasn't armed, he was an ordinary worker there, and he was killed because he was a Serb.

A. I'm not aware of that particular detail.

Q. And do you know that in the police station yard in Darda, they killed Milivoj Stojakovic on Saint Elias Day, on the 2nd of August, 1991?

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. And do you know that in that period, an assassination attempt was made at Ilija Djurkovic from Beli Manastir, who succumbed to his wounds on the 5th of September, and Nedo Tomic was seriously wounded?

A. Nedo, a man. Yes, I do know about that. I'm aware of that incident. And it provoked the Serbs to organise themselves in Karanac, in Knezevi Vinogradi immediately after that incident, and the villages were closed with checkpoints.

Q. And do you know that on the 7th of September, 1991, a sabotage group of the National Guards mined the region around the Serb village of Balma. It's a Serb village. And four members of the defence of Baranja were killed, four TO members.

A. Yes.

Q. Was that how it was?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that on the 14th of September, a sabotage group ^{14215 BLANK PAGE 14216} came to the Jelen agricultural estate and killed two unarmed workers on the estate who were Serbs?

A. Yes, I do know of that.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you can have five minutes more, until 10 past, and then you will have had much longer than the Prosecution, and we shall bring your cross-examination to a close.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. It is very difficult for me to ask all the questions I would like to ask.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But without enumerating, many of these events you know about. People died from the constant onslaughts by the black-shirt groups of men, the extremists. All those events are events you know about. Isn't that right?

A. Yes, most of them.

Q. So throughout that time, while you were working, did the Serbs ever attack any Croatian settlements or conduct crimes of this kind against a village, against the inhabitants of a village, against workers, citizens, or anybody else?

A. No. In that period of time, the Serbs were exclusively oriented towards Defence, towards defending the lines taken, towards defending Baranja.

Q. All right, fine. Then I need not question you any further on that score.

I should just like to clarify one point, as our time is up and I have many more questions to ask, but the collective answer to all the ¹⁴²¹⁷ questions, let's clear up one point, and that is concerning the document that I looked for a moment ago and wasn't able to find amongst all my documents. It is the document which speaks about the alleged abuse of a position on the side of the anti-terrorist ATD and the SUP in Baranja. This document is, in fact, titled "Explanation" and then it goes on to say "Abuse of position by members of the ATD, anti-terrorist operations, and the SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, in Baranja," and there is no signature to the document. So I don't know what value this document has at all.

And does it mean anything to you as a witness?

A. The document, as such, as a document, is one I saw for the first time here. However, the events that are described in the document mean something to me. I think that this is only a portion of the events that have been described in this document, not everything that happened.

Q. All right. Tell me, please, as we noted a moment ago that the situation there was calm and that the Serbs were just defending themselves, protecting themselves, that there were no other - how shall I put this? - no other incidents, so what has it got to do with the Serb authorities at all, or with any conduct on the part of the organs and institutions of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem, the fact that somebody was stealing vehicles, for example, and selling those vehicles elsewhere or engaging in any other activities of that kind? What has that to do with any of the authorities in this trial and anything to do with this trial here? In view of the job you had, I'm sure you know how much the police of Serbia did to prevent all this happening, to prevent theft, ¹⁴²¹⁸ looting, that it confiscated vehicles if perpetrators were engaged in unlawful import of such vehicles, that they had set up checkpoints and so on.

Now, what has that got to do with our proceedings here and what we are discussing?

JUDGE MAY: We must bring this to an end. We will allow the witness to answer. It's not for him to answer what it has to do with the proceedings, that's for us to decide because that's a question of relevance. But you can deal with two questions:

Do you know any connection between this sort of activity, Witness C-025, under various authorities there may have been, apart from Colonel Mijovic, of course? You can answer that, if you would.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was an interconnection in view of the fact that the units of Colonel Mijovic was not linked along the chain of command to the territory in which it was active, however Colonel Mijovic did have an influence on the leadership of the then SUP in Beli Manastir. Rather, they were the ones who carried out his orders.

JUDGE MAY: The other thing that was put is that efforts were made to stop this kind of activity going on. Can you help on that or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were. But all this went on in bouts, in different periods. And it depended on what was going on in the realm of politics. For example, there were some periods in which this form of activity, when registration -- the re-registration of vehicles was allowed, and there were periods when it was not allowed, this attempt to register the vehicles without registration plates. ¹⁴²¹⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are you trying to say that the authorities in Serbia ever allowed this take place?

A. I'm not talking about Serbia. I'm talking about Baranja, the Baranja territory.

Q. All right. We've clarified that. One more question now: In your statement on page 10, and you also spoke about this during the examination-in-chief, (redacted)

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JUDGE MAY: Yes, go into private session. This is the last question.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, list of witnesses next, please. There is a list.

MR. NICE: The last witness list is I think still valid, save for the fact it was made clear last week that Mr. Blewitt, even without his medical problem, would be used as a -- is to come after witnesses coming from outside --

JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could just remind us the order we've got them coming up.

MR. NICE: Yes, it would be Witness Laber next, followed by C -- yes, Poljanic is next.

JUDGE MAY: Laber, Poljanic and --

MR. NICE: If we get to it, I think it will be K-2.

JUDGE MAY: K-2. And Mr. Blewitt.

MR. NICE: Probably now not this week I should think because we've only got until Wednesday.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, with ¹⁴²²² respect to the cross-examination conducted by Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, in case Mr. Nice in the event that Mr. Nice has no questions, then I will refrain from asking my questions and not keep the witness any longer, on condition that Mr. Nice has nothing further to ask the witness either.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, have you got any questions? I mean, we have to keep the witness -- I'm afraid we have to.

MR. NICE: I have questions. I'm not sure about the propriety about that.

JUDGE MAY: It's totally improper. But nonetheless, have you got any questions?

MR. NICE: I do.

JUDGE MAY: You do. So that's the answer. You must come back, I'm afraid, tomorrow morning but it won't be for very long, Witness C-025. 9.00 tomorrow morning, please.

[The witness stands down]

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

the 10th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.