Milosevic Transcript 2003-01-30

¹⁵¹⁷⁸

Thursday, 30 January 2003

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

Q. Witness, did you see Jovica Stanisic in Dalj in mid-September 1991?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. Can you describe where you saw him and what happened.

A. I saw him in the centre of Dalj, and as we said, that was sometime in mid-September 1991. It was about 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning. Jovica Stanisic had arrived with an escort and several vehicles. He got out of the vehicle. And all that took place in front of the government building or, rather, the premises where Mr. Hadzic was.

I myself happened to be, just by chance, in front of the building at the time, and I saw them get out of the cars. And Mr. Stanisic raised his voice and asked where Mr. Hadzic was. As the answer was that he wasn't in the building, he said that he should be found straight away and that he should be brought to Dalj. And then they set off in the direction of the TO headquarters. ¹⁵¹⁷⁹

Q. Did you see Ante Kostic and Zavisic on that day, at the same time when Stanisic arrived, and were they with him?

A. Yes, they were with him.

Q. Did you see any of the local authorities, like Kojic or the TO commander, also at that same time?

A. Yes, I did. They were all there at the time. And I also remember that Slavko Dokmanovic was there, who at the time was the president of the Vukovar municipality, or mayor.

Q. Did Mr. Stanisic say anything to them?

A. Yes, he did. He said that a meeting should be convened of all the representatives or, rather, the commanders of the TO, of the local authorities, and that in the space of a few hours this meeting would be held with these people.

Q. Did he make any accusation or did he criticise the local authorities in any way at that time?

A. Yes, he did. Straight after getting out of the car, Stanisic started to behave arrogantly, and he started to scream at all those present and said, "Why hasn't Vukovar fallen yet?"

Q. And what did they -- how did they respond to that?

A. I don't think anybody had an answer to his question.

Q. You mentioned that Mr. Stanisic wanted to see Hadzic and have a meeting with him. Did that meeting actually take place at some point in time and, if so, when and where?

A. Yes, the meeting did take place several hours later, as I've already said, in the premises of the TO in Dalj. I think it was in the ¹⁵¹⁸⁰ afternoon. It might have been 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. And the meeting went on for quite some time.

Q. Who was present? Was Hadzic present during the meeting, and who else, if you know?

A. Yes. Goran Hadzic did appear later on, and as I've already said, all the commanders of the Territorial Defence; Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and the representatives of the special purpose units or, rather, Mr. Zavisic.

Q. Was anyone from the JNA present? Do you know?

A. Yes, there were representatives of the JNA present.

Q. What was the topic of the meeting?

A. As to the topic of the meeting, I can't be sure. I didn't attend the meeting myself. But later on, I learnt that the meeting was being held in order to liberate Vukovar as soon as possible.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, for one question I would like to go into private session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: We will have the exhibit number, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit number 375, Your Honours.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I would like to have the English version on the ELMO.

Q. Witness, this is a letter dated the 23rd of September, 1991, from the police station in Dalj, and you actually wanted to -- is that the letter you saw?

A. Yes, that is the letter I saw.

Q. And can you now explain what had happened in Dalj and what is described in the letter.

A. In this letter, it is stated that on the 21st of September, 1991, around 1800 hours, the president of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, Goran Hadzic, came to the Dalj police station, together with Arkan and about 20 of his men; that they released from detention, or prison, several persons and that Arkan, with his men, took away, I think, 11. I don't need to count them now. About 11 people, and that it is not known where ¹⁵¹⁹⁰ they are. Their whereabouts are unknown.

Q. Witness, in relation to the two persons that are listed here in this letter as being released, did you -- did these people -- do you know why they were released or did you find out subsequently that they were actually safe and sound somewhere?

A. Yes. There were rumours circulating in the whole region as to why those persons were released and that they are in the Republic of Croatia - I don't know along which routes they got there - and that these were persons who had quite a lot of money.

Q. Did -- did you actually verify these rumours or is that just -- did that remain a rumour to you?

A. I tried to verify, and all the people I spoke to told me that it was true, that Arkan had taken maybe a million or even 2 million Deutschmarks from them and that that is why they were released. But later, in 1998 or 1999, when I was able to verify this continuing my work in the Croatian police, the only thing I learnt was that those persons were alive and that they are in the Republic of Croatia.

Q. We have here the list of people who were taken out.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I don't think we need to read out the names now. These are the 11 persons.

Q. And did you ever find out what happened to them?

A. I did. Also many years later, as I was saying, in 1998 or 1999 when exhumations were being conducted in the area, I saw their names, stating that they had been exhumed from a well in a location called Celije. ¹⁵¹⁹¹

Q. But at that time while you were working in the police in 1991, you did not find out what had happened to these people; they were just gone. Is that correct?

A. That's correct; i never found out.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to go into private session now because we have to continue with what happens with the letter, Your Honours.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁵¹⁹²

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session. ¹⁵¹⁹³

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is tab 2 of Exhibit 375.

Q. And I would like you to have a look at it. And we should also put this document, the English version, onto the ELMO. Witness, this is now an Official Note, and it's again from Mr. Cizmic at the police station, and it is now referring to an event on the 4th and 5th of October, 1991, involving again an abduction of a lot of people that are listed here, from the police station by Arkan. And I would like to know from you, first, have you seen this document at that time in October 1991?

A. No. I've never seen this document.

Q. Given the format, and in particular when you look at the signatures and who signs it, is that an authentic document?

A. It is.

Q. Do you recognise Mr. Cizmic's signature? Is that the usual format?

[redacted]

Q. And when you look at the bottom of this document, there is listed who was supposed to get it, and it says here as number 2, Zavisic, special unit commander. Is that the Zavisic that you mentioned and talked about?

A. Yes, that is Zavisic. And I also wanted to say that under number ¹⁵¹⁹⁴ 1, that is me, to the secretary of the internal affairs, and who never received this document.

Q. Witness, it is described here in this document how on the -- actually, around midnight of the 4th of October, 1991, Arkan took out these 20 -- took out, with 20 of his men, a lot of people from the police station. Did -- despite the fact that you did not know this document, did you hear about the event?

A. Yes, only later, after the second event, after Hadzic and Arkan came together and took away these men that are mentioned in that other letter.

Q. And how did you learn about it? Were you informed by --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think we have to go into private session now.

[Private session]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness the Exhibit 327, tab 6, and it is the decision on the appointment of government positions in the SAO. I actually have two ¹⁵²⁰¹ questions in relation to this document. It can be put on the ELMO in the English version.

Q. Witness, you have mentioned Ilija Kojic a couple of times. It -- and I got the impression he had a lot of dealings with the police, but here it says he's the Minister of Defence. Can you explain that? Did he cover the police as well?

A. You could put it that way. He was the Minister of Defence only on paper. In actual fact, all the police operations and everything that went on and happened in the police, he was the superior and in command of all of that.

Q. And number 15, Stevo Bojic. This person, it says here, "Minister Without Portfolio." Did this person have a nickname, and what actually was his function in relation to Hadzic and the government?

A. Yes. Well, I never met the man before the war. I didn't know him. I met him first in Borovo Selo, and I know that he is a local, a native of Borovo Selo, in fact. And that later on, by Mr. Hadzic, he was appointed at the head of some sort of special unit or, rather, I don't want to call it a unit. What it was was some ten men whose job it was to see to Hadzic's needs and security.

Q. And has he the nickname Jajo?

A. I apologise. Yes, I forgot that. Yes, his nickname was indeed Jajo.

Q. You have mentioned Mr. Hadzic and said you knew him well. What was his position? What was his job before the war?

A. Mr. Hadzic worked on a factory farm in the village of Pacetina. I ¹⁵²⁰² think he was a warehouse clerk or something of that nature. He kept records for warehouses, the stocks and so on.

Q. You said it was hard to find him when you wanted to find him in October. Was he often absent and, if so, what did he do? Where did he go?

A. Goran Hadzic spent most of his time in Novi Sad, but also he moved around the country. The RSK at the time, as you know, was split, it was divided, and that's how it remained until the end. So he would go to Western Slavonia, for example, and Knin, the Knin area. But as I say, he spend most of his time in Novi Sad.

Q. What was he doing in Novi Sad? Do you know that?

A. I can't say. I don't really know. I don't know what his role was in Novi Sad.

Q. Did he also go to Belgrade, and if so, how would you know that?

A. Yes. The public information media were working at that time, and -- but let me go back for a moment to Novi Sad. Almost every evening Goran Hadzic would appear on television and he would present the state of affairs in the RSK. And also on many occasions on television, you would see him in Belgrade.

Q. Could you --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We need to go into private session, Your Honour.

[Private session]

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[redacted]

--- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you'll remember that since this witness is protected, any questions which may possibly lead to his identification should be avoided, shouldn't be asked in open session, should be asked in private session. So if in doubt, we'll go into private session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it's a very sensitive subject, the one you've just pointed to, a sensitive issue, because the only heritage of these modern times which differentiates what is happening here to what happened in the Middle Ages is precisely the public character of the proceedings but it seems that that distinction you are trying very efficiently to eliminate.

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, that's absurd. Could you kindly just get on with it. Ask your questions. You know the reasons that we have these rules, and your kind of comments do not assist. Let's go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am aware of the reasons, I know them, but I must say that I don't always acknowledge them in that way ¹⁵²⁰⁸ because this kind of practice allows many untruths to be uttered, and the entire public knows that they are untruths. So to exclude the public does not help us to arrive at the truth. But let's move on to the questions. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-013, in your examination-in-chief, you mentioned many alleged facts and information, and this after a space of 12 years, which you did not mention earlier on, even in the statement you gave four years ago. So tell us the reason for that, please.

A. I did not understand what facts you mean. What were the facts that were not presented four years ago? What are you referring to?

Q. Well, you mentioned some meetings that you attended that you don't talk about in your statement, and you also mentioned that my name was brought up, which I assume should be a very important fact and should be found in your statement but it is not. So how come four years after you gave the statement you suddenly come to this alleged new data and present it in the examination-in-chief? What is the reason for that?

A. I can answer that question for you. At that time, I did not consider this to be that important, and I didn't know that all this would take place at this level.

Q. All right. The reason perhaps for which you have presented this whole heap of, to put it mildly, untruths something that --

JUDGE MAY: Just pause there. You've made a point. The witness should have the chance to answer it. If you're going to make these sort of allegations, the witness should have the opportunity to deal with them. What the accused says is that you have asked -- or your evidence ¹⁵²⁰⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁵²¹⁰ is, as he puts it, "a heap of untruths." Now, is that so or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is absolutely not true. Everything that I have said -- I took the solemn declaration to begin with, so everything I have said is the truth.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. With your testimony, which I claim, as you've just heard, is -- contains a lot of untruths, is the reason for that, and there are many, let me mention just a few of the possible reasons.

JUDGE MAY: I think it's probably wise, from previous experience, if we now go into private session for this matter to be put.

[Private session]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So let me go back to this question. Do you know anything about the formation, even before the HDZ came into power, of the 204th Brigade of the National Guards Corps under the command of the new Ustasha, Tomislav Mercep?

A. No.

Q. But you do know his name?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And do you know that he committed crimes against Serbs with his unit, unheard-of crimes and on a large scale in the area of Vukovar?

A. Only from stories. I didn't see anything myself. ¹⁵²²¹

Q. You didn't see anything. And who did you hear the stories from?

A. From people later on, after Vukovar fell.

Q. And did that information appear to you to be credible or not?

A. I have to say once again that I believe only what I see with my own eyes.

Q. Very well. Is it true that the aggravation of the overall situation in the whole of Croatia, including Vukovar, started after the HDZ came into power in 1990?

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. And are you familiar with the decisions of the Croatian government from the summer of 1990 which significantly contributed to the deterioration of the situation? And, to be more precise, I'm referring to the decision to form the National Guards Corps and the decision to start illegally importing weapons from abroad.

A. No. I can say that I saw such reports only in the media.

Q. In your statement, when you say that the Serbs were being armed, you say that you learnt from Croatian sources that the Croats had been armed six months prior to that. Is that true or not?

A. Yes, partially so.

Q. And do you know that members of the National Guards Corps, especially in that area, were mostly problematic and crime-prone types elected by local boards of the HDZ and the Catholic church?

A. I hear that about the Catholic church for the first time. As for the men and the character of those men, I agree with you up to a point.

Q. And do you know that the purpose of these forces that were formed ¹⁵²²² at the time as paramilitary forces was the forcible secession of the Republic of Croatia from the SFRY?

A. That is up to politicians to decide whether that was secession or not. That's all I can say.

Q. Very well. And do you know, are you familiar with this fact, that parallel with the purchase of weapons and large-scale arming of these units, at the same time the weapons of the reserve police force were being taken from police stations in which the Serbs were in the majority?

A. You will have to explain that to me.

Q. It true that while on the one hand the National Guards Corps was being armed and the police of Croat ethnicity was being enlarged, that weapons were being taken and withdrawn from communities of Krajina in which the Serb population had the majority?

A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

Q. And do you know that, because of the implementation of these decisions, there was quite intensified activities to carry out personnel changes according to ethnic criteria of the HDZ?

A. I'd rather not answer that question. I'm not qualified to answer it.

Q. And had you heard of the conclusions and instructions of this same Tomislav Mercep that after the elections in all local communities personnel be appointed that support HDZ policies?

A. That is true.

Q. Since you were a citizen of Vukovar, do you know anything about the activities in July and August 1990 of the HDZ in their own premises in ¹⁵²²³ Vukovar, the Municipal Board and so on, and their decisions to start forming volunteer detachments? Do you know anything about that?

A. You mean by the Croats?

Q. Yes.

A. No. I don't know anything about that.

Q. And do you know Marin Vidic?

A. Yes, I know the name.

Q. And this can be found in his statement. You don't know anything about it nevertheless.

A. I really don't. In those days, this was a secret.

Q. And who was Marin Vidic?

A. I know him as a citizen of Vukovar, nothing more than that.

Q. Was he the deputy for Vukovar, appointed by the government in Zagreb?

A. I don't know that. In those days when such things were happening, the Serbs had already left Vukovar. This was happening during the war operations.

Q. What I'm talking about was happening in 1990 when this arming took place and even through legal bodies permits were obtained, as many permits as possible, for the purchase of weapons. Do you remember that? [redacted] [redacted].

A. You're mentioning 1990. You know that --

JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session now, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know anything about the consequences of the decisions of HDZ in Vukovar in December to replace prominent people of Serb ethnicity holding prominent positions in the area? Do you know anything about that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. I will read to you parts of a letter by the representative of the Croatian government for Vukovar, Marin Vidic, and you will tell me what you know about what is stated here and whether you have anything to add or to question from this letter in view of the knowledge that you have now or had then. So he writes to Tudjman, to the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, the Minister of the Interior, his letter which says: "With the appointment of Tomislav Mercep as secretary of the municipal secretariat in Vukovar, the power has been usurped. Surrounded by people of suspicious moral and professional qualities, former criminals, they have taken over supervision over everything in Vukovar municipality, not refraining from the use of force and reprisals against the citizens of Vukovar (charging into people's homes, sending oral and written permissions for people to move into those apartments, looting ¹⁵²²⁸ apartments, seizure of private vehicles, public hearings, and even executions). Upon the intervention of Mr. Manolic, Tomislav Mercep was withdrawn to Zagreb allegedly to the position of assistant minister in MUP. Policies applied so for have created a serious psychosis of fear among the Croatian and Serbian population," et cetera. So as we can see, this was a wave of violence, including executions. This letter is dated the 18th of August, 1991, and it was addressed by the representative of the Croatian government to the following addresses.

What do you know --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer this. It was not a letter he can comment on, but he can comment on the contents. Witness C-013, you've heard what's been read out. Is there any comment that you would like to make about it as to whether it's true or not or to what extent it's true?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is this: That was the 18th of August 1991, and at that time I was not in Vukovar, and everything I know in connection with this I learnt after 1992. This is the same kind of information that I heard by people when they talked amongst themselves and nothing more than that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. It is common knowledge that this HDZ council from -- replaced Dr. Rade Popovic, who was the head of the Vukovar Hospital, and he was replaced by Dr. Vesna Bosanac. That is common knowledge.

A. Yes. But also, similarly, all this took place when I myself was ¹⁵²²⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁵²³⁰ not in Vukovar, and we ought to differentiate in time. After March 1991, don't ask me anything about Vukovar, because I know very little about it. I was not there.

Q. All right. But that entire region. This was a very important institution. For example, Borovo, the largest factory in the area, the director who was a Serb, Zdravko Egic, was replaced and Hasan Vladimir took his place and was appointed director of the company. So do you know of similar examples? I'm just quoting one example. Do you know of other similar examples, where people were dismissed, expelled, killed, there were executions, and it was their own man writing about this? So do you know about the breadth and scope of --

JUDGE MAY: What the witness has said is that he doesn't know about events at the period that you are asking, and he actually has said that he can't answer any questions about it. So why don't we move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So does that mean that you know nothing about any kind of violence, killings, or the crimes perpetrated against the Serbs in that region during those particular months of summer and autumn of 1991.

A. Absolutely so. That refers both to the Serbs and the Croats, to both sides. I never saw, not a single time with my own eyes that anybody had killed anybody. So I don't think there's any need to discuss the issue any more, or similar ones.

Q. All right. And did you hear that in the course of 1990, over 70 cases were recorded of physical attacks and violence against the members ¹⁵²³¹ of the JNA?

A. Which area do you mean?

Q. Well, that same area.

A. Against members of the JNA?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, that's quite untrue.

Q. All right. Fine. And do you know or did you ever hear of this: That in February 1991, at an initiative meeting of the HDZ for Trpinjska Cesta held in Borovo Naselje convened by Tomislav Mercep in his capacity as the then president of the HDZ party and also the secretary for national defence of Vukovar and that a decision was taken on the ethnic cleansing of the Vukovar municipality?

A. No. And it would be absurd if I said I knew of a decision of that kind. [redacted], and any actions of this

kind were done so that we should not learn of them.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you happen to know that at that or similar meetings representatives of the Croatian Sabor or Assembly would come in - Seks, Glavas, et cetera - and where they would discuss the Independent State of Croatia and the measures they were taking, the steps they were taking in that regard?

A. No. Those meetings were secret too.

Q. Well, do you know anything at all about their cleansing operations? ¹⁵²³²

A. Absolutely nothing.

Q. Did you ever hear about the plan, the first stage to replace these people from their posts; second, intimidation and expulsion from the territory to make the Serbs leave the territory; and the third phase for those who had not succumbed to the coercion of the first two phases, of liquidation, the third was put into effect? Did you ever hear of a plan of that kind?

A. Yes, through the media first, on television. It was publicly broadcast.

JUDGE MAY: Who was broadcasting that plan?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was broadcast over Television Belgrade.

JUDGE MAY: Belgrade. Yes. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your statement, you yourself say something about that, about your knowledge of the fact that the Croatian extremists were busy arming themselves. Isn't that right?

A. Yes. They were my personal observations.

Q. What did you say?

A. They were my personal observations and knowledge.

Q. All right. Now, you state that you did have certain knowledge about that. Did you hear about the Zeljko Ostojic case, Zeljko Ostojic being from Vukovar?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear about or later learn about the fact that Zeljko ¹⁵²³³ Ostojic, at the end of 1990, testified to the security organs about the formation and existence of groups for silent liquidation, as they were called, and the intentions and plans of Glavas, Mercep and Zadar for the joint cleansing of the Eastern Slavonia? Did you know anything about that?

A. No. I really didn't.

Q. Did you hear perhaps later on that that same man, Veljko Ostojic, was killed in his own flat just half an hour after the Spegelj film was broadcast? That was between the 25th and 26th of January, 1991, and I assume you saw that footage, the Spegelj tape.

A. Tell me, was the killing in Osijek? Is that where it took place?

Q. What did you say?

A. I said in Osijek. Did it take place in Osijek?

Q. Zeljko Ostojic was killed in his own flat.

A. Where?

Q. Well, I don't know but he's from the region. Probably in Osijek. You're probably right there. Probably it took place in Osijek.

A. If that is the killing I'm thinking about, the killing in Osijek, then I remember something from the information media. It was broadcast.

Q. And do you know that the Yugoslav state Presidency on the 9th of January issued an order to disarm and disband all paramilitary formations in Croatia and that this was never implemented?

A. Yes, I do know about that.

Q. And did you happen to hear or perhaps see that on the 10th of March, 1991, from Borovo Naselje and the surrounding parts in the area, in ¹⁵²³⁴ the region, in Bogdanovacka Dola, a review of paramilitary troops was organised and that 2.000 people attended?

A. Yes. After the war, I saw a television programme about that, and video footage was shown and made public.

Q. But at that time, you knew nothing about that; isn't that right?

A. Yes. That is absolutely correct.

Q. Could you please tell us what you know about the attack by the Croatian police on the 2nd of May on Borovo Selo or, rather, the attack by armed Croatian extremists on the 2nd of May on Borovo Selo? Just briefly. What do you know about that event?

A. I know what other people said about it. On the 2nd of August, 1991, that they entered Borovo Selo from two directions and that fire was opened on both sides simultaneously, both them from the vehicles and the people who were out into the street, in the streets. Everybody had weapons at that time. And I know that the army arrived and prevented any further escalation in the conflict.

Q. All right. Let me remind you of what you said here during the examination-in-chief yesterday, in fact. And please correct me if I'm wrong, if I didn't make a correct note of it.

You said that on the 2nd of May, the Croatian police stormed Borovo Selo and that 200 to 300 persons - that's what you said - that they shot at the people and that many locals were killed. And then you were asked whether the JNA intervened, and your response was, "Yes, the JNA did come in and assist the Croatian police to withdraw from the village because there was the danger of the conflict being continued and for more ¹⁵²³⁵ casualties to be caused." Is that right?

A. Well, that's partially correct, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Is that all you have to say about it, all you know about it? I've just quoted what you said yesterday.

A. Well, could you ask me the same question? But I don't think we ought to go back to that. I don't think it's that important, actually.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the quotations that were just put to the witness are not correct. At least, not in its entirety. The points in the statement are rather brief, and there was -- it speaks about several local people were killed and members of the Croatian police, not in this extent as it was now quoted to the witness was anything mentioned.

JUDGE MAY: No. There was -- my note has it that there was no mention of many people being killed. My note, which I take to be a paraphrase, was that several Croat police and local people were killed. Is that right, Witness C-013?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

JUDGE MAY: You heard the summary which Mr. Milosevic read out of your evidence on that particular incident. Is there anything you'd like to add to it or was it in any way incorrect apart from that matter which we've now corrected?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the lady put right what was stated incorrectly, and I think that that's it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. I quoted, in my opinion, an important fact which you yourself stated yesterday, and that was that on the 2nd of May, the ¹⁵²³⁶ Croatian police stormed the village and that there were 200 to 300 people there. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. Let's move on then. And is the following correct: On that same occasion, almost simultaneously with what was going on in Borovo Selo, from the Dalj axis, 350 Croatian forces launched an attack using hand-held launchers and heavy artillery weapons and other weapons as well. Do you know anything about that?

A. The figure that is being mentioned in Borovo Selo, this is a combined number, which means those who came in from Borovo Naselje and from the Dalj direction, and that would be between 200 and 300 people altogether.

Q. And after that, were the Serbs arrested en masse and mistreated and expelled?

A. At that time, I myself was in Bobota. So let me repeat: I wasn't there and I don't actually know which area you're referring to, where.

Q. Well, the Borovo Selo area, Dalj, Vukovar; that general region. Eastern Slavonia, in fact.

A. Well, I can see that you don't know this area very well, then, from what you're saying, because you say the area of Borovo Selo, Dalj -- well, all right, Dalj is another matter. Dalj was under Croatian control. But Borovo Selo, that wasn't feasible. And in Vukovar --

Q. Vukovar, Dalj, and other places under Croatian control where Serbs were arrested en masse. They were abused and expelled. Did you hear anything about that? ¹⁵²³⁷

A. Only from the stories that were being told. As I say, I was in the village of [redacted]. My movements were restricted, so I can't say anything specific on that score.

Q. All right, then. In view of these attacks, which I hope are not being disputed, is it logical that the inhabitants of the Serb villages undertook different measures to defend themselves and organised village watches, village guards, and saw to their own safety and security? Would that being logical?

A. Let me say again that your information is not correct, because the village watches had already been in existence for several months by that time.

Q. So what did they do to protect themselves according to the best of your knowledge?

A. What I said existed before, the village watches or village guards.

Q. Do you know that on the 7th of August there was an armed conflict in Kostajnica and in the villages of the Vukovar municipality? And this is quite a long way away from one another, and they took place at the same time, when there was an escalation of violence in Croatia and when the fighting was intensified in the surrounding parts of Vukovar. Do you know anything about that?

A. As far as Kostajnica goes, I saw that all on television. And as for the villages in the area, you'll have to tell me which villages you mean.

Q. Well, do you know any of the villages? Do you know any villages where on the 6th of August the violence became intensified against the ¹⁵²³⁸ Serb population? Just say yes or no. If no, we can move on.

A. Well, I can't give you a yes or no answer. I want to clarify this issue and be quite specific. So if you have any information about any particular village, remind me.

Q. Do you know anything about that violence at all?

A. No, I don't.

Q. All right. Then just give me a no answer. And do you know about the incident that took place on the 29th of August when the members of the Croatian National Guard Corps stopped vehicles carrying military materiel and moving to Belgrade, disarmed the men and looted the equipment and arms? Do you remember that particular incident?

A. No, I don't, I really don't.

Q. And do you remember another incident that took place on the 21st of September, 1991, when 13 soldiers of the JNA were massacred in Karlovac and their bodies butchered using axes? This took place on the bridge. Do you remember that taking place??

A. Well, we can't call that an incident or event. I can only consider something to have taken place -- I only consider an event something that I saw, but let me say I saw that on television, and I do remember it, yes.

Q. All right. Because you say that everything that went on against the Serb population, you just have television reports and evidence. Do you know that on the 1st of August, 1991, the Yugoslav state Presidency concluded that the cease-fire was not ensured and that after the signing ¹⁵²³⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁵²⁴⁰ of the agreement for a truce and cease-fire, up until the 17th of September, 263 attacks were launched against the JNA and its facilities? This was common knowledge. These facts and figures were generally known in Yugoslavia at that time. So did you hear about them?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Right. So you heard about that, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you then consider that the only legal armed force was the JNA under the description -- under the conditions described, the only force capable of protecting the population from the paramilitary, unlawful, and illegal formations and units that were rampant in the region?

A. I completely agree with you, that's what they should have done, yes. But as I say, should have. They did not do so.

Q. We'll come to that. We'll get to that later, because you spoke about it. But tell me this: Do you know about the fact that due to the deterioration in the situation, the Serb policemen decided to leave their posts in the Vukovar SUP?

JUDGE MAY: Witness C-013, we'll consider that. It may be sensible to go into private session before we go on.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. May --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁵²⁴¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know about how the Serb policemen left the police force in Vukovar.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, based on your own knowledge. I'm not asking you in general terms, but do you personally know whether it is true that the Croatian authorities first of all cleared the internal affairs sector of Serbs and suspicious Croats?

A. Your information is only partially correct.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. ¹⁵²⁴²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Could you clarify what is incorrect in that regard, then.

A. I can't give an answer to that question openly, publicly.

JUDGE MAY: Go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁵²⁴³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I put this question and let him judge whether he can answer it in open or private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁵²⁴⁴ Pages 15244-15250 - redacted - private session

¹⁵²⁵¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you remember when members of the National Guards Corps, on the 20th of August, 1991, in the nuclear shelter, slaughtered two boys of 15 in the presence of 20 children and -- 20 women and small children?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to address His Honour, if I may.

These are the same sort of questions about which I really no nothing. I wasn't there at that time. There are piles of such information, and this would lead us into the extreme.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, it's the accused's practice to put as much information as he claims he has to witnesses.

No point asking these questions. Let's move on to another topic. Your time will be limited, Mr. Milosevic, and if you have any questions to this witness about the evidence he gave - we don't seem to have had any in the present hour and a half - you should ask him. Particularly if you ¹⁵²⁵² challenge anything which he says. You should be challenging that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I challenge, certainly, and I assume that you had occasion to hear all the things I have challenged, and I will continue to challenge.

JUDGE MAY: All you've done is to put -- as far as I can see, is to put a lot of allegations of what you claim happened to the Serbs. It's your usual practice, I know, but it's time, maybe, that you should be dealing with the evidence which the witness has given which is concerned with events in this indictment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] False indictment and false witnesses go together. There's no question about that, Mr. May. I'm asking your witness whether he knows the number of Croatian paramilitary units that were engaged in the area at the beginning of 1991.

JUDGE MAY: He has given you his answer that he can't deal with these events. Now, let's move on to something else that he can deal with.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in private or in open session?

JUDGE MAY: We're in open session now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know that in the town of Vukovar and its immediate vicinity there were 6.000 to 8.000 of these forces, paramilitary forces, of the National Guards Corps and these criminals that had put on police uniforms?

JUDGE MAY: When are you talking about?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am talking about the year 1991, ¹⁵²⁵³ the period that the witness has testified about.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's get on to something else. I'm going to stop this. It's pointless, these allegations which the witness can't deal with. If you want to call your evidence, you could do so in due course, but it's a waste of time putting to witnesses matters which they cannot deal with. You may have your own reasons for doing it, in order to get publicity, but as far as this court's concerned, if the witness can't deal with it, it's a pointless exercise.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness is saying what was happening in Belgrade and Novi Sad, that he was not there and he can't tell us what was happening in his immediate vicinity. So I find that rather illogical, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Well, we're going to adjourn now. Your time will be limited, as you know quite well. We'll tell you how much time you've got at the end of this, and I suggest you move on to some more relevant matter when we come back.

Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.35 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should now like to ask this witness -- or rather, I'd like him to comment on certain issues which emerge from his statements yesterday.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yesterday, you stated that somebody was transferring weapons ¹⁵²⁵⁴ across the Danube River and that the weapons were in Borovo Selo but that you don't know who was doing this transference; is that right?

A. Yes, I do know who did the transfer.

Q. Well, did you see it take place?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you see? Did you see somebody transferring weapons?

A. I don't know what you mean by "transfer," the term "transferring." Transporting, bringing in, taking away; that's what I saw.

Q. What did you see?

A. Well, I saw ships bringing in the weapons. I saw it being unloaded and I saw where it was being stored.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in open or private session, Mr. May?

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Then I have to ask you this indirectly. You happened to mention a name, the name of a man who was in charge of those weapons and allegedly for their distribution. And when asked directly, your response was that you didn't know him. Is that right or not?

A. No, that's not right.

Q. Well, later on, your answer was, when asked how do you know that he told you that, told you what he said, and you said that a colleague of yours told you but that you didn't know him.

A. That was just with respect to his official function. I later ¹⁵²⁵⁵ learnt which post he held, which official post, but not his identity.

Q. Well, where was the man from, then?

A. He was from the MUP of Serbia.

Q. Was he an inhabitant or a native of or however you like to put it of Eastern Slavonia or was he a man from Serbia?

A. He was a man from Serbia.

Q. And who told you that he was from the MUP of Serbia?

A. The people I was in contact with who were my superiors.

Q. All right. So who were your superiors? Who were these people superior to you who explained it to you and told you?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that would be a matter for private session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁵²⁵⁶ Pages 15256-15292 - redacted - private session

¹⁵²⁹³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: There are two matters I want to deal with. The first is that there's been a change in the UN holiday in February. It's been changed to the 11th from the 12th. We will have to change our hearings accordingly. I hope the Prosecution can accommodate that.

MR. NICE: We've been alerted. We don't think it's a problem.

JUDGE MAY: Right. So we will be sitting on the 12th now, but not on the 11th.

The other matter, Mr. Milosevic, is you raised a matter concerning a newspaper article in which there was a comment by Mr. Wladimiroff. That newspaper article, Wall Street Journal, has been shown to us. We do not consider the comment as significant. There's no evidence as to where it came from. In any event, it has absolutely no bearing on this case and no action is necessary. ¹⁵²⁹⁴ Mr. Nice, you wanted to raise a matter?

MR. NICE: Yes, I have to raise something. Nothing to do with the present witness at all but perhaps --

JUDGE MAY: No, he can't go. He can't go. Witness C-013, if you don't mind waiting a moment.

MR. NICE: The position is that a forthcoming witness has been facing a -- very well. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff would prefer this witness to withdraw, and I can understand why.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: A forthcoming witness has been facing a very serious difficulty. I'm not in a position to give you very much detail because it's not possible to communicate other than with the accused being present. I think that's a procedure that, of course, serves his legitimate interest but on certain occasions may serve others. The position is that notification had been given of the needs of this witness for protective measures. It was made clear in the course of that application that the need arose not from fear that the witness had for himself or herself but for his or her children. That information was available only to the limited number of the OTP dealing with the witness. So the Court, its officers, the amici, and the accused, within a day of that information being provided in those circumstances, of those anxieties being communicated to the Court, threats from an all-too dangerous source were communicated to the witness via the spouse of the witness, focusing ¹⁵²⁹⁵ exactly on what had been the concerns, namely, the children. The witness, in consequence, is in great fear, is no longer available to us or, in reality, for it is often said these are witnesses of the Court, to the Court.

Yet again, the reality is revealed that there are forces at work impeding evidence coming before this Court.

In the circumstances, as the Court is unable to hear directly from the witness today in the absence of the accused, I hope that the Court will accept the view formed by those dealing with the witness is that the witness has changed completely from a willing witness to one whose mind is affected by real and substantial fear. Further information may follow in writing.

JUDGE MAY: We will just confer. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. Time is short. We have to be out of here. I can say that we take these matters extremely seriously indeed. The reference was to something that was said in closed session.

MR. NICE: Of course. Yes, closed session.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, we can hear very briefly about this, but as you recognise, this is a serious matter indeed, with people being threatened in this way.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I'm interested in is the change in the schedule. Is the schedule and order of witnesses being changed? Because it is absolutely excluded that any information may leak from me or my associates. I gave you my word that none of my associates would do any ¹⁵²⁹⁶ such thing, and that is much firmer than any rule that you may have established. So it's up to you to find out who engages in such dirty work.

All I'm interested in is the list of witnesses, as it's Friday tomorrow, and we have surprises every week as to who the next witnesses will be. I don't even know which witness you're talking about here.

JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with that, and we shall certainly order that the most thorough investigation takes place as to how this matter -- how this information could possibly have got out. And as for the list of witnesses, can you help us on that?

MR. NICE: For reasons that will be obvious to the Court, it's better that it comes in a letter this afternoon.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: Because after all, the operation of threats is an operation that has an effect on the order of witnesses.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course, but I think the accused has got to know what he's to prepare for. You've got a list.

MR. NICE: He will be told before he leaves court. We will ensure that happens.

JUDGE MAY: We have a list of the 24th of January. No doubt he should prepare for all the witnesses who are on that list.

MR. NICE: I will get communication to him directly by the court officers as to who he should prepare for for tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m., ¹⁵²⁹⁷ to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of

January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.