18268
Tuesday, 1 April 2003
[Open session]
[The witness entered court]
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.
MR. KAY: Yes. The Court will see this morning there is a third amicus in court. That is Professor McCormack from Australia, who was appointed by the order of the Trial Chamber to assist on matters of international law, and he is present this week for the hearings and to deal with any issues the Trial Chamber may ask of him. Perhaps he can introduce himself to the Trial Chamber now.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. McCormack, let me say we've got an application which you've made for an extension of time for the preparation of submissions. You asked for an extension of the same period of time as we initially allowed, your not having had the papers or anything to work on it. We'll certainly grant that until the 14th of July. MR. McCORMACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm sorry that I have to ask for that extension of time for such a long time, but as all three of you know, the process of me actually being able to commence my work has taken a little bit longer than I hoped it would but I'm very pleased to be here today. Thanks for the welcome, and looking forward to working with you on the aspects of the trial that you've designated me to deal with.
JUDGE MAY: Thank you. 18269 MR. McCORMACK: Thank you very much.
JUDGE MAY: We'll deal next with the witness. Mr. Gusalic, I understand occasionally you may need a break when giving evidence. If you do, if you want a break, just tell us and you can have one.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
WITNESS: ALIJA GUSALIC [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]
Q. Mr. Gusalic, before we return to where we were at the end of yesterday, you told us about Mauzer's men and about Mauzer. Do you remember now of which brigade Mauzer had originally been a member?
A. I think the Panthers.
Q. And he himself, do you know what he had done by way of military service before having this group which you now connect in some way to the name Panthers?
A. I don't know.
Q. Page 5 of the summary, paragraph 18. Mr. Gusalic, you told us of your first experiences in the hospital and of the visit by Blagojevic with two of his men. Were you and others in the hospital visited later by other well-known individuals? If so, tell us by whom.
A. Yes. I was visited by Mrs. Plavsic, Fikret Abdic, Arkan also came, and Mirko Blagojevic.
Q. Those first three or four people, did they come just to see you or 18270 did they come to see many people in the hospital; and if so, with what message?
A. Not just me. They toured the whole hospital.
Q. What was said, for example, by Arkan?
A. Arkan didn't say anything in particular, but Mrs. Plavsic said that this had all been done by the paramilitary, that the Yugoslav People's Army would deal with it and calm things down. And later on, it did calm things down.
Q. Were orders given as to whether you should be treated or not?
A. I don't know. I stayed there for only nine days and I was released.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, just one moment. We're not getting our transcripts running. All we've got is the first part of the morning's work.
Yes, apparently it will be sorted out. Provided we're keeping a transcript, all well and good. Yes, go on.
MR. NICE:
Q. Were you in fact treated by hospital staff, Mr. Gusalic?
A. Yes, I was for the first three days, but later, they would hit me, and after the visit --
JUDGE MAY: Apparently there is a problem with the transcript and we'll need to break for five minutes. We'll adjourn for five minutes for that to be done.
--- Break taken at 9.16 a.m.
--- On resuming at 9.19 a.m. 18271
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
MR. NICE:
Q. Mr. Gusalic, when you were released from hospital, did you go home?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Arkan at the time of your release from hospital or at about that time? If so, did he say anything to you?
A. At the hospital when Mrs. Plavsic and Fikret Abdic came, but after that, I didn't see him again.
Q. Who told you to go home? Do you remember?
A. Arkan personally released me, and he said that I should go home and that no one would hurt me.
Q. Did he say anything further about whether you should go home and stay at home or whether you were free to roam around, or what?
A. That I should go home and stay there, not leave home.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, there is a small bundle of exhibits for this witness, three altogether, and indeed as I've already indicated I'm not going to produce the second, but may they, for convenience, be given an exhibit number with two tab references in the event.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 414.
MR. NICE: And of Exhibit 414, tab 1 is a photograph now on your -- it's not now on the witness's screen. May it be displayed for the witness.
Q. Do you recognise one or both of the men in that photograph?
A. I recognise only one. That is Arkan, the one on the right. 18272
Q. Following your release from prison -- and, Your Honour, I'm going to try and deal with pages 5 and 6 fairly briefly, I think. Following your release from prison -- from hospital, did you receive letters of a threatening kind?
A. Yes, I did receive letters. Who sent them, I don't know for sure, but they were threatening letters.
Q. Were you visited by men from identified groups?
A. There were soldiers coming all the time to my house, as if it was a garrison.
Q. What did they do to you, if anything?
A. They didn't do anything. They just cursed my balija mother, that's all.
Q. Were you arrested on two occasions in this period of time following your release from hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you or had you started the process of hiding at the time of your first arrest, hiding from the men who were visiting you?
A. When I got that last letter, I got scared, and then I started to escape, and they were looking for me.
Q. I think they found you and they took you to the SUP building in Bijeljina; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Indeed, when they found you, they forced you to surrender by saying something over a loudspeaker about what would happen to your wife, didn't they? 18273
A. Yes, and to my whole family.
Q. What did they say would happen to your family if you didn't give yourself up?
A. That they would all be killed if I didn't surrender. So I decided it was better for me alone than my whole family to suffer.
Q. At the local SUP building, what treatment did you receive from the police?
A. They didn't talk much. They just hit me.
Q. Were you handcuffed at some stage?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Was something said to you about the treatment you were receiving and the way it's different from the way you would have been treated had you been detained by Blagojevic's men?
A. Yes. It was certainly better that I was captured by the police than by Mirko's men, because if they had caught me on the very first occasion, they would have killed me.
Q. This was something said to you or something you calculated yourself?
A. I calculated that myself. No one told me.
Q. Did there come a time when you needed to go to the toilet and you asked to have the handcuffs taken off?
A. Yes.
Q. Once you were released from the handcuffs, what were you able to do?
A. I had no choice; I hit the policeman and ran. 18274
Q. And you escaped?
A. Yes.
Q. You then hid for about 20 days in a cemetery and in some woods?
A. Something like that. Around 20 days.
Q. Later, you felt you had to go back and see your wife who'd recently given birth to a new baby?
A. Yes. I had a daughter. She was a month and a half old, and I decided to go and see her.
Q. At your house, were you arrested again?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men came to arrest you? Did you recognise any of them?
A. No one.
Q. How many of them were there?
A. I think there were three of them.
Q. How were they dressed?
A. Camouflage uniforms.
Q. On their heads?
A. Black scarves -- no, socks.
Q. Did you recognise -- think again, please. Did you recognise any one of those men?
A. I'm unable to recall.
Q. Did you subsequently discover whether your wife, your brother, and your child had been treated in any way to force them to reveal your presence at the house?
A. Later, before that, my wife, brother, and my baby daughter, while 18275 I was escaping, they took them to the barracks. They put them in some sort of a freezer for them to confess where I was hiding, though no one knew.
Q. After this second arrest, were you taken to the local SUP building?
A. Yes.
Q. How many days were you kept there, roughly?
A. Not roughly; for four days.
Q. Were you provided with wood or water over those four days?
A. No. I was just provided with beatings.
Q. Who did the beatings?
A. Who didn't. Whoever came in.
Q. Who was the police commander at the time? What was his name?
MR. NICE: Your Honour, this witness is obviously having some difficulty yesterday and today remembering matters of detail. Giving evidence is always a stressful experience. I propose to ask him if he's recorded these matters in his statement and, subject to objection, I'll put a name to him.
Q. Did you record at an earlier time the name of the police commander and, I think, put it in a witness statement? I'll just check that it's in the witness statement rather than in the proofing notes. Did you? Did you put the name of the police commander in your statement?
A. Mica, yes.
Q. And Mica, had he formed a special unit of men as well as being a general police commander? 18276
A. Yes. He was the commander. Yes, he did. He had his special men. Perhaps 30 or 35 men, young men.
Q. Were those some of the men who came and beat you?
A. All 30 of them came with Mica.
Q. Page 7, paragraph 28. On the fourth day of your detention, were three other men brought in from Bijeljina whom you can remember?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give us names and, so far as relevant, occupation of those men?
A. Smajic Ejub, who was a butcher. Ferid Zecevic. He had a coffee shop, a restaurant. And Zlatan was a jeweller.
Q. Do you know what, if anything, Ferid Zecevic had done with his money, he being the restaurateur, before being brought to the SUP building?
A. For the Bajram holiday, Arkan went to him and took money so that nobody could touch him. So Arkan went.
Q. In fact, when these three men were brought to the SUP building, how were they treated?
A. Nobody asked anything, they just beat you.
Q. And these three men were beaten as were you; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you and these three others thereafter taken to the Batkovic detention camp which is near Bijeljina?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. We can see this on page 29, immediately to the north of Bijeljina 18277 in square E2 on the right-hand side.
Was that camp -- or did that camp consist of two hangars and two tents?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it fenced with wire some two metres high with barbed wire on top and with two guard towers?
A. Yes.
Q. Roughly how many people were detained there?
A. Perhaps 2.000, perhaps more. About 2.000 anyway.
Q. Ethnic composition of those detained?
A. I don't understand.
Q. What was the ethnic composition of these detained? Were they Serbs? Were they Muslims? Were they Croats?
A. Mostly they were Muslims, but there were some Croats too.
Q. Were there any elderly people there?
A. Yes, and children.
Q. And any women?
A. I think there was one woman.
Q. What was the age of the youngest children there, approximately?
A. Well, there were very small children, young children.
Q. Did the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, visit the camp?
A. Yes, it did visit, but the older children and the smaller children, there were ten special purpose soldiers, and they would hide the children so -- when the Red Cross came to register. 18278
Q. Were any of the children released after the Red Cross visit?
A. The children were not released, but --
Q. As far as these detainees were concerned, were they civilians, or combatants, or mostly civilians or mostly combatants, or what?
A. There were just two combatants who had been captured, and they were called the Green Berets. All the others were civilians.
Q. From which local towns and villages did the detainees mostly come?
A. Brcko, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bijeljina, Brezovo Polje, Koraj.
Q. Do you remember any other towns from which they came, any larger towns?
A. I just can't remember.
Q. No, of course. If other places come back to you, please tell us. The guards at the camp, where did they mostly come from?
A. At the beginning when I had just been arrested, there was a warrant officer from Novi Sad. I don't remember his name.
Q. Do you remember the name of his deputy at all and where he came from?
A. Well, the deputy was Veljo. What -- he was --
Q. When you first arrived at the camp, did you see what happened to Ferid Zecevic and Ejub Smajic? Paragraph 33.
A. Well, there was beating and beating, and Ferid just couldn't take it, and he succumbed the first night to the beatings.
Q. Who did the beating?
A. Mostly it was Veljo who did the beating, with a mask, with a sock over his head. And Gligor, Zoran. There was a major of some kind there 18279 BLANK PAGE 18280 too.
Q. Veljo, do you know his last name?
A. I can't remember it now but I do know it.
Q. And is this one of the guards who did the beating?
A. Veljo, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Veljo was the deputy, the deputy of this warrant officer.
Q. Now, did you put his name in your statement? Do you remember?
A. I did, or maybe I didn't.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, may I mention to the witness the name Stojanovic.
Q. Is that the name that you connect with Veljo or Veljko?
A. Well, that's what he called -- they called him, but I don't know the surname exactly.
Q. Was there another man involved in these beatings in some way who went by the nickname of Piklic?
A. Yes. Piklic was a Muslim, and he broke my ribs and my spine and everything else. One hundred and twenty kilos, he was, and he stood on me.
Q. Now, Piklic was his nickname. Do you know what his real name was?
A. That's what everyone called him, Piklic. I did know his name, but --
Q. Very well. Explain, please, how this man, a Muslim, came to be beating you in the way that you've described.
A. Well, not one, two of them, actually. 18281
Q. Who was the other Muslim who was beating you?
A. Spajzer. I think his name was Dzemal Zahirovic.
Q. Can you explain how these two Muslims were beating you and injuring you in the way that you've described.
A. Well, I don't know why they did. Perhaps to gave their own heads. And they couldn't care less for other people.
Q. You've explained how one of the two men attacked succumbed pretty quickly. What happened to the other one? Did he die as well?
A. I think on the third day Zlatan, the jeweller, he also succumbed. He couldn't take it any more. So myself and Smajic were left. The two of us were left.
Q. And you were still being beaten by, amongst others, these two Muslims?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you provided with any food in the camp? If so, describe it.
A. We were given food, but I couldn't eat it because they would beat you up first and then give you the food.
Q. Were you obliged to do any work, labour?
A. The first time, but not afterwards. I was -- I seemed to be a speciality for being beaten up, as if I was to blame for the war and so that people could see that.
Q. Were the two men you've described as dying the only ones who to your knowledge died or did others die? If so, how many?
A. Well, the number might have been up to 100 people certainly. They succumbed, older ones, others. 18282
Q. In addition to the problems with food, were conditions very hot?
A. Yes, it was very hot.
Q. And as a result of the combination of factors, beating, lack of food, and heat, were you from time to time actually taken as dead while you were still alive?
A. Yes. They took me out four times because they thought I was dead, but I seem to have lived on. I would move a leg or an arm and they would take me back again.
Q. Did any of Mauzer's men visit the camp?
A. Well, there were different soldiers. As soon as they came, they would look for us special ones, and there were ten of us, and beat us.
Q. Before we come to the special ten of you to whom I'll turn, when Mauzer's men visited the camp, did they do anything else in relation to the property of any other detainees?
A. Yes. They would take us to a place to hide us and take money and gold from people who had it on them. Well, they didn't have anything to take from me, because even my T-shirt was torn. So all this beating was on my bare body.
Q. The group of ten special men, did that include initially Ferid Zecevic and Ejub Smajic who died from beatings?
A. Yes. It was always a group of ten people. And if one person would succumb to the beatings, then they would make up the number.
Q. Can you name any of the ones who made up in this way the group of ten specials? Give us some other names.
A. Rebic Cedo from Brcko, Tufekcic Andrija from Brcko, Mustafic 18283 Saban. That was a young person of 16. Kuralic Mirsad. Mostacevic Nedim. Alihodzic Fadil.
Q. Very well. The ten of you -- or the changing group of the ten of you, were you given special treatment? If so, what?
A. Well, the hangar was actually for everyone, but the rest of the people making up the 2.000, nobody dared contact -- make any contact with us. And if somebody did have any contacts with us, then he would be transferred to our group and beaten, so that the people didn't want to risk talking to us.
Q. And how regularly were the group of ten beaten; every day or more than once a day, or what?
A. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, when we lined up, and midnight, after 12.00. And they would beat us unconscious then.
Q. Did you lose weight in the course of this treatment, and if so, how much so that you're -- how much did you lose and how much did you ultimately weigh?
A. Well, I weighed 109 or 110 kilos before, and during the time I was there, when I was in Batkovici for the first time, I went down to 59 kilos, which, for a large man like myself, is a lot of weight loss. I was just skin and bone.
Q. You've said a little about the Red Cross visits. Tell us again, what happened to this group of ten specials when the ICRC came?
A. Well, I don't know -- well, as soon as they hear that the Red Cross is coming, they take us away from the hangar some 500 kilometres [as interpreted] away, where the livestock was kept, and that's where they hid 18284 us. Cardak.
Q. Was there one other particular event, or two other particular events that occurred? First of all, was there something about standing on a chair involving a noose that you can tell us about?
A. That's very difficult. When the Red Cross came, they hung me. They tried everything else, and then that's what they tried ultimately too.
Q. When you say they hung you, are you describing a hanging by a noose and by your neck, and was it with an intention to kill you or simply to restrain you?
A. To torment me. They tried everything. They beat me, and then they tried that too to see what that would look like, what effect that would have.
Q. And was there sexual activity that was forced on you? If so, in a sentence, tell us about that.
A. It's shame on them to force a man to sleep with a man.
Q. Was that done once or more than once?
A. More than once.
Q. And was it done in the hangar or elsewhere?
A. At the Cardak, when we were hidden away, when the Red Cross would used to arrive.
Q. And so who was looking at this, just the guards and the other members of the ten or who else?
A. The guards there. The guards were the ones who worked there.
Q. Thank you. Around September 1992, did you move or were you moved 18285 from this camp to the camp at Doboj?
A. Yes.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary to produce a separate exhibit. The Chamber can see it on page 28 of the atlas, pretty well in the middle of the page, in block C2.
Q. When you went, did you go with other members of the special group of ten?
A. Yes, the same group, ten of us. Us ten of us went.
Q. On arrival were you examined?
A. Yes, in the garrison in Doboj, that's where. But we were living corpses.
Q. What was the reaction of the doctors who examined you?
A. Well, they did a good job. I was covered in wounds.
Q. Indeed had some --
A. With maggots.
Q. With maggots. Thank you. And how did they treat you, the doctors?
A. Fairly well.
Q. Did you have an opportunity of looking at yourself in a mirror?
A. Yes, and I got a fright when I saw myself. I didn't look like a human being at all.
Q. Following medical examination, were you taken to a camp in some army warehouses?
A. Yes, at Usora camp.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, the name of the camp may be different from 18286 that which is used in the indictment, and for that reason I'll ask the next question, but the Chamber will see the river Usora running out of Doboj south and west of the town.
Q. This Usora camp as you describe it, was it close to a particular factory?
A. Yes. It was a fruit factory, Bosanka, and we went to work there.
Q. Was it similar in composition as to hangars and so on to the Batkovic camp?
A. Similar. Well, the hangars were the same, but there were less people there. And they even kept Serbs there, the Serbs who didn't want to go to the front line.
Q. How many Muslims were there there?
A. There were the ten of us and perhaps a hundred people. Not more than that ever.
Q. Were there any Croat detainees?
A. Andrija was there.
Q. That's one Croat, is it?
A. Yes.
Q. You were kept at this camp for about how long?
A. Eleven and a half months, I think it was. Eleven, eleven and a half.
Q. And was that period of detention typical for other detainees as well?
A. [No interpretation]
Q. Very well. In the course of your time at this camp, were there 18287 several commanders?
A. Yes.
Q. Coming from what force?
A. From the Republika Srpska.
Q. Was one of them by name Ziko Novic?
A. Yes.
Q. And the guards, did they also come from the Republika Srpska?
A. I remember that one of them was a Montenegrin, but I can't remember his name just now.
Q. And the others?
A. Mostly Serbian from the Republika Srpska.
Q. Were conditions in this camp better, worse, or about the same as in Batkovic?
A. I think they were better. They were better for me. Better because I was beaten less there.
Q. Were you still beaten?
A. Yes, but they beat us with police batons, and that was just like a game, like a toy compared to the rest.
Q. Did they ever hit you on your faces?
A. Well, no, not that.
Q. Do you recall any prisoners dying at this camp?
A. No, but there were wounded people, injured.
Q. Can you name any of the guards who did mistreat detainees?
A. There was Dzuro Martic. He was commander of the military police. He would come by frequently. And -- 18288
Q. Was any Serb prisoner, those who were being detained because they were unwilling to fight, was any Serb prisoner involved in beating other detainees?
A. Yes. They were in the first hangar, and the Muslims and Croats in the second and third.
Q. Can you give us the name of any such prisoner -- name or nickname of any such Serb prisoner who beat other detainees?
A. Well, there was someone we called Tropek, with three fingers. Two cut off and three remained.
Q. Thank you.
A. He would come in often.
Q. I turn to paragraph 47, forced labour. Were you, during your period at this camp, taken to dig trenches?
A. Yes. All kinds of things.
Q. Was this forced or voluntary work?
A. Of course it was forced.
Q. Did any prisoners die while digging trenches close to the frontline?
A. No.
Q. I'll ask you to think again. Can you remember any incidents at the frontline, when trench digging was going on, of prisoners being wounded?
A. Yes.
Q. How many prisoners were wounded?
A. Three. 18289
Q. And after that had happened, were they replaced and did the work continue or was work suspended?
A. Work was continued, and they were taken away to be -- for their wounds to be dressed and later on back to the hangars probably.
Q. On one occasion when digging trenches, were you taken to a village called Smajne Vode?
MR. NICE: It does not show up on the map, Your Honour.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
MR. NICE:
Q. We can't find this -- at least, I can't find this on the map that we have. Can you help us at all with how near to or far from Doboj this village was?
A. It's right next to Doboj.
Q. What did you find there?
A. They were preparing digging trenches. This was a village that had signed its loyalty that it wouldn't go to war.
Q. What did you find in the village by way of bodies of people?
A. Later on, they attacked the village, and in one house after that attack, there were up to 40 civilians, some killed, some slaughtered.
Q. Who attacked the village? Who attacked the village? I didn't catch your answer, I'm afraid.
A. The Chetniks, the Serbs.
Q. And when you say they were slaughtered, did you see how they'd been slaughtered? 18290 BLANK PAGE 18291
A. Yes. I loaded them onto a truck.
Q. And how had they been killed?
A. Most of them had their throats slit, and there were others who had been killed with shots from firearms.
Q. And your working party had to deal with them by loading them onto a truck and taking them where? Or don't you know where they went?
A. We loaded them onto the trucks, and they drove them off, I don't know where.
Q. Were you also from time to time obliged to cut wood for those who were fighting?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the Red Cross visit the camp? If so, roughly how many months into your detention?
A. I think after five or six months, but I don't know exactly.
Q. Did conditions change after the Red Cross visit?
A. Yes. Later on, we were given clothing and it was better.
Q. Was your wife allowed to visit you in due course?
A. Yes, she would come to visit me with our son.
Q. How many times did she visit you?
A. I don't know. Two or three times. But after that, we would again be beaten.
Q. Were you aware of - paragraph 52 - of other prisoners being kept in the police station in the centre of Doboj town?
A. Yes, I do know that.
Q. Did you know a man called Jelisic, Goran Jelisic, from before the 18292 war, a man coming from Bijeljina?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. In the course of detention, were you spoken to by other detainees, one named Djelo Kamberi and another named Andrija Tufekcic?
A. Yes. They were elite specials, and we were in that group.
Q. Did they tell you what Jelisic had done in Brcko?
A. Yes. They had spent some time in Brcko, and they knew Jelisic well in those days.
Q. What did they tell you of Jelisic's doings in Brcko?
A. That there was a manhole where he killed people. And even Andrija's turn had come, but somehow he managed to escape. He had the good luck not to be killed by him.
Q. Anything said about the numbers of people that Jelisic had killed in Brcko?
A. The figures were high. They also mentioned someone called Monika.
Q. What was it said Monika had done?
A. That she too had done the same.
Q. When you said the figures are high, are we dealing in fives, tens, twenties, or more?
A. I think the figures were over a hundred.
Q. Were you taken from Doboj after your eleven and a half months back to Batkovic with four other of the special group of ten?
A. Yes.
Q. Had the other five already been exchanged at or during their time in Doboj? 18293
A. Yes.
Q. Were you kept at Batkovic for another three months?
A. Yes. I was supposed to be exchanged, but -- the exchange was all for all, but they left me behind and the others left. And so I stayed there for another three months.
Q. On this occasion, roughly how many Muslim men were there there?
A. Could you repeat the question, please?
Q. Yes. On this occasion, your second detention in Batkovic, roughly how many Muslim detainees were there there?
A. The number was between 800 and 900, but the following few days, about 600 or 700 had been exchanged, and I was supposed to go with them.
Q. On this occasion, were there any beatings or not?
A. At that time, no one beat me.
Q. To your knowledge and on information, were there included in the detainees people from the Manjaca camp and from the Rogatica camp?
A. Yes. I was the only one from the Tuzla region, and there were some from Manjaca, about a hundred to 150 men. And from Rogatica also there were some.
Q. Were you interrogated from time to time?
A. Yes. They didn't beat me, but they mistreated me psychologically.
MR. NICE: May the witness now see on the computer Exhibit 414, tab 3, which is a list of prisoners of war of Muslim ethnicity exchanged on a date in October 1993, the document coming from a report on the commission of exchange of prisoners of war and the report suggesting that the names are the names of detainees from the Batkovic camp. 18294 If we can make sure I have the same screen that the witness has.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the names.
MR. NICE: I'm going to ask the witness to read out the limited number of names he recognises - they have already been highlighted - in order that the names can be on the searchable computer LiveNote record.
Q. Looking at this list of names, Mr. Gusalic, did you recognise number 6, Anto Vidovic?
A. Yes.
Q. We'll go down to number 10, and would you read out the name if it's a name you recognise.
A. Okanovic, Ilijaz.
Q. Eleven?
A. That's me, Alija Gusalic.
Q. Forty-four?
A. Omerovic Beniz.
Q. And 56. If you can find that.
A. Dragan Lovric.
Q. And these are all names that you recognise as having been in the Batkovic camp?
A. Yes.
Q. In the course of your second detention there, of course.
A. Yes.
Q. A couple of other tiny points or small points. At your first detention in Batkovic, were you interviewed on television or for television -- 18295
A. Yes.
Q. -- by a member of the Serb Radical Party called Pusula, together with some foreign journalists including one apparently from Russia?
A. Yes, in the village of Trnova.
Q. That I think one can see on the map. I found it before. I hadn't marked it. Yes, it's just south and west of Bijeljina; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Just south and west of Bijeljina. During your second detention -- I beg your pardon. Go back.
In this interview, were you invited to say things that were true or invited to say things that were false?
A. They were false, of course.
Q. Were you forced to say things that were false or did you decline to cooperate?
A. I was promised if I said that the Muslims had started the war, that they would take me to see my wife and children.
Q. Did you in fact say things that were false or not?
A. How could I say something that wasn't true?
MR. NICE: Well, at paragraph 59 of the summary, the spelling of "Trnava" is wrong. It should be T-R-N-O-V-A, not A-V-A, if the map is correct.
Q. During your second period of detention in Batkovic, were you interviewed on several occasions by civilians, and did these civilians include television crews from the Republika Srpska?
A. Yes, there were several. 18296
Q. Did you say things that were false or did you decline to do so?
A. I always spoke the truth, and perhaps that is why I suffered so much. The truth must win.
Q. So far as property is concerned, your town of Bijeljina, how many mosques had there been there before the war?
A. Five, and the sixth one was under construction.
Q. Were they damaged at all in the course of the war?
A. They were destroyed totally.
Q. Is Janja a village in the municipality of Bijeljina?
A. Yes.
Q. We can see it immediately south and just before you reach the river and the border.
Were there two mosques there?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to them in the war?
A. They were also destroyed.
Q. Thank you. Your present condition is that you still suffer from pain in your chest, arms, and back; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You suffer diabetes, apparently connected to the events that you've described and the suffering that you underwent?
A. I developed diabetes in 1997.
Q. And what was the date of your exchange?
A. 8th of November, 1993.
Q. Thank you very much. If you wait there, you will be asked some 18297 further questions.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusalic, you lived in Bijeljina.
A. Yes.
Q. But as far as I can see from your statement, you don't dare return to Bijeljina.
A. How can I return to Bijeljina when I lost my health, Mr. Milosevic?
Q. But tell me, I assume you would feel better in your own town. Are you afraid of something? Are you afraid of returning to Bijeljina?
A. Of course I'm afraid.
Q. What are you afraid of?
A. I'm afraid of those men who inflicted what they did to me.
Q. You're afraid of men who are today living in Bijeljina; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. So that is why you don't dare return there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is perhaps the reason for your fear that a large number of people say about you that you were the man who started the war in Bijeljina?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. Yes, I started the war, Milosevic.
Q. No. I'm asking you whether that is true. 18298
A. How can that be true?
Q. Because there are certain facts confirming this. For example, before I move any further, the other day I received from the side opposite - this is not my document - a statement of Esad Brkic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this was disclosed to me under Rule 68, Esad Brkic's statement, and the first page is 00212764, and I will quote from page 11 of this statement which is marked, of the opposing side, 00212774. So it is a statement by a Muslim, which is quite a lengthy statement.
"Gusalic, the day prior to the beginning of the war in Bijeljina, in a tipsy condition, got on a horse and with a flag of the SDA - that is the Party of Democratic Action, this nationalist Muslim extremist party - the Party of Democratic Action, holding that flag in one hand and a grenade in the other, entered a coffee shop in Bijeljina, threw the grenade, which didn't go off. The Serb owner of the restaurant opened fire, shot him, and wounded him."
Q. That is what is being claimed not by Serbs, though they say the same, but here you have this statement by a Muslim.
JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Yes, Mr. Gusalic.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, that's a lie regarding the flag. I didn't have a flag, Mr. Milosevic, but I did have a grenade. And I am sorry now that I didn't throw the grenade into that coffee shop.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Well, did you throw it in or not? 18299
A. I said that unfortunately I didn't.
Q. Well, where was that bomb?
A. It was in my hand.
Q. And how far were you from that coffee shop with that bomb?
A. About 15 to 20 metres.
Q. I see. And your intention was to throw the bomb?
A. Yes, because Arkan's, Seselj's, and Mirko's men were in that cafe. There were no civilians there.
Q. We'll come to that later. Who was in the coffee shop?
A. I personally know who was in there, sir.
Q. So you were a few metres away from the coffee shop with this bomb in your hand, and everyone can see you carrying this bomb and that you intended to throw it in there; is that right? So it was quite clear to everyone in that cafe that you intended to throw the bomb at them?
A. There were two guards in front, armed guards in front of that cafe.
Q. Now, whether they were guards or not, it's rather unbelievable, but it was quite clear that you were carrying this hand grenade and intended to throw it at the Srbija coffee bar. You were wounded there. Where were you wounded?
A. In my leg.
Q. In your leg. And what happened then?
A. I went to the hospital, and I escaped.
Q. And who took you to hospital?
A. It doesn't matter. I won't tell you. 18300
Q. Didn't those same men who had wounded you and who had prevented you from throwing the grenade take you to hospital?
A. No. They continued shooting, sir.
Q. They continued shooting at you?
A. They were shooting towards the Istanbul coffee bar.
Q. I see. We'll come to that later. Now, tell me, please, is it true that you went to the Radojka Lakic elementary school?
A. Yes.
[redacted]
[redacted]
JUDGE MAY: That is totally irrelevant. That's a most improper question.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
JUDGE MAY: No, it is not a proper question, and the witness will not have to answer it. Now, kindly confine yourself to what is relevant and proper.
MR. NICE: May that passage be redacted from the transcript.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, go on to something else.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You, Mr. --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shame on you, Mr. Milosevic.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, I can understand that you'll be annoyed, but try not to be. You will be protected from questions of that sort. You're not here to harry the witnesses or bully them, Mr. Milosevic. Now you'll confine yourself to proper questions. 18301 BLANK PAGE 18302
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that this is proof that Mr. Nice is abusing this witness. He is obtaining statements from him which are not truthful.
JUDGE MAY: You can ask the witness proper questions. Now, get -- move on to that.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For instance, Mr. May, a moment ago we heard Mr. Nice's questions having to do with certain men found with their throats slit which they carried, buried, and so on, and I noted this down. This was some 15 or 20 minutes ago, in front of all of us; that they found them, that they were civilians, some had been shot, some had their throat slit. And I was surprised, because I didn't pay attention to that when I read the statement of the witness. I reread it quickly. There's not a word about it. Where did this come from now?
JUDGE MAY: Of course you can put the statement to the witness. That's a perfectly proper form of cross-examination. What isn't is to abuse them. Now, let's move on.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Gusalic, if what you just said is true, how come that you didn't consider it important to tell the investigators when you were making your statement? How come you forgot such a "minute" matter regarding some 40 people killed and slaughtered and now you suddenly remembered such an event? How is that possible? Could you explain that for me?
A. In my life I never lied.
Q. I believe you. 18303
A. Never.
Q. That is clear. But how come you didn't say that in your statement? Why is that not in your statement and you suddenly remembered finding these people?
A. That should be in the statement. I think it should be in the statement. Read that statement more carefully.
Q. Well, if it is in the statement, I'll withdraw this question. There's no problems whatsoever. We can move on now. You say that you're not a member of any political party; is that right?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. According to my information, you are a member of the Party of Democratic Action from its very foundation. So you're not.
A. You're making me laugh. I have a mixed marriage. My first marriage and my second marriage was a mixed marriage. I was not interested in the war, sir.
Q. Yes, but are you living in that mixed marriage with your wife?
A. Yes.
Q. And you get on well, don't you?
A. I have two wives, and both are Serb.
Q. So you have two wives?
A. And they are both Serbian.
Q. Very well. Tell me, please, maybe the information I have is incorrect, because I don't know anyone in Bijeljina so I can only talk about what I heard from others. 18304 Is it true that you were convicted several times before the war because of various incidents, fights, provoking squabbles on an ethnic basis? Is that true?
A. No, it isn't.
Q. So you were never convicted?
A. No.
JUDGE MAY: That's a convenient time. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.
--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Gusalic, a moment ago, you told me about some bodies and people whose throats had been slit, and you said that it must have been in the statement. I have taken a look at your statement during the break, and this is what it says in your statement. It's on page 9 of your statement, and you say: "In the camp in Doboj, I stayed for eleven and a half months. We had to dig trenches up at the front but not during the shooting."
That's what it says in your statement. Then you go on to say: "During the fighting, we would have to take out the bodies of the killed Serb soldiers from the front."
That's what you also state.
A. Well, read it once again. It must be there somewhere.
Q. What did you say? 18305
A. Well, read the statement with greater care. It must be there.
Q. Could you find what you claim you say in your statement, please.
A. Well, I don't know. I have only completed eight years of schooling, and I can't read. I don't know how to read.
Q. Well, I can't read through it. Perhaps the opposite side can help me and find what you claim you say in your statement about those slaughtered persons.
A. Yes, about 40 of them. That's what I said.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, help us with this. Mr. Nice, do you want to add anything?
MR. NICE: I was going to respond to the accused's invitation by saying this is a matter that, as I understood it, emerged first in proofing.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, at least we've cleared that point up.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You mentioned Mirko Blagojevic, and you said that people gathered there, Chetniks with beards, as you say, and so on. So what colour was Mirko Blagojevic's beard? Was it black or was it grey, white?
A. Mirko Blagojevic didn't have any colour. He didn't have a beard.
Q. You mean so others had a beard?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that the co-owner of the house in which the Srbija coffee bar was located, the co-owner, and actually the entrance is the 18306 same, just half a metre one from another, the co-owner's name is Demir Dizdarevic, and he's a Muslim. Do you know of him? Have you heard of him?
A. No, I did not know.
Q. Well, do you know that in the coffee bar itself, when you wanted to throw your hand grenade inside, that there were Serbs and Muslims inside?
A. Well, I was in the coffee bar, and I saw who was inside.
Q. So do you claim that it wasn't Serbs and Croats who were inside?
A. No, sir.
Q. What do you mean, that there were or not?
A. That there were only Serbs inside; Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and Mirko's men, armed to the teeth. Yes, that's how it was.
Q. Well, my information tells me that nobody was armed. There was just one pistol that somebody had borrowed, of the 7.65 millimetre calibre type, and that they shot at you from that pistol when you started throwing the bomb.
A. That's a lie, sir. You haven't been informed correctly.
Q. Well, there are other people who were there, so we'll be able to clear that up. But let's move on for now.
You say that the soldiers who entered the coffee bar called Srbija, and you say that in your statement on page 2, paragraph 6, that they were wearing camouflage uniforms, that they did not have any special caps. How can an ordinary army have any special caps, and what kind of caps did they wear at all? Tell me that. 18307
A. Well, there were soldiers, different types of soldiers there. The radicals, they had the cockade type of caps. The others had the panthers or, rather, the tiger insignia.
Q. So on the basis of what do you draw your conclusion that they were Arkan's and Seselj's men, as you say?
A. Well, they had a different accent.
Q. What did you say?
A. Well, we talk differently from the Serbian people.
Q. So you made your observations and conclusions on the basis of accent whether somebody was from Serbia and from Bijeljina and so on?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And if they say that they were people from Bijeljina there, would that be a lie? Would that not be the truth?
A. How could it be the truth?
Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this: As you said that Mirko Blagojevic was a functionary of the Serbian Radical Party, and you say there were no Muslims and so on and so forth, do you know or have you heard about a man whose name was Izet Selihbegovic, nicknamed Izo Beg? Have you ever heard of him? You're from Bijeljina yourself.
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Well, do you know that this Muslim, Izo Beg, is the secretary of the Serbian Radical Party? Is that true? Is that correct?
A. I don't know if it's correct and true but I've heard about it.
Q. You've heard about it. Right. Now, how then do you explain that a party of any kind, as you say, is persecuting the Muslims whereas the 18308 secretary of the party itself is a Muslim himself?
A. Well, maybe he changed his name.
Q. What did you say? Changed what?
A. His name.
Q. Well, Izo Beg hasn't changed his name.
A. Well, then I don't know.
Q. And do you know that even before the war he was a deputy of the Serbian Radical Party in the Bijeljina municipality, for example?
A. I don't know. I didn't delve in politics much.
Q. Do you know that at the last parliamentary elections he was a candidate put forward by the Serbian Radical Party for the parliament of Republika Srpska? He was on their ticket of the Serbian Radical Party. But anyway, yesterday in the examination-in-chief, you started off by making an observation, and that was that your brothers were in the army of Republika Srpska; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how then do you explain -- and your brothers are of course Muslims like yourself.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you explain, then, that they were in the army of Republika Srpska if that army of Republika Srpska, as you say, persecuted Muslims?
A. Because they went up to the frontline. They pushed the Muslims to the frontline so that Muslims could kill Muslims. So they were forced to.
Q. Do you wish to say that they were forced?
A. Well, yes of course. They wouldn't go as volunteers, would they? 18309
Q. All right. So they weren't in the army of Republika Srpska voluntarily, of their own free will. They didn't bear arms of their own free will and fight voluntarily in those ranks?
A. Well, how would they be volunteers to shoot at their own people, to shoot at me as their brother? There's no logic there.
Q. Well, this was a confrontation and conflict with Muslim extremists and not a conflict with the Muslims as such. Is that so or not, Mr. Gusalic?
A. Yes, and after a year in Republika Srpska and the Serbian army, they had to flee.
Q. All right. Now, as you yourself are from Bijeljina, and as you say that the Muslims were allegedly there by force, that they were forced to be there, do you know that the 3rd Semberija Brigade which was deployed in Bijeljina and in the environs in Bijeljina, further afield, numbered several thousand fighters, 95 per cent of those were Muslims? Are you aware of that? Do you know about that?
A. No.
Q. Have you heard about Major Pasaga Halilovic?
A. No, I haven't, and I'm not interested either.
Q. Major Pasaga Halilovic --
A. I'm not interested in that.
Q. What did you say?
A. I'm not interested in that. I'm not going to answer those questions, sir.
Q. Well, you're duty-bound to answer. You can say you don't know, 18310 but you can't say that you refuse to answer questions.
A. Well, I don't know and I'm not going to answer that. I don't know that, sir.
Q. Well, do you believe that there is a man in Bijeljina -- that there can be a man in Bijeljina, a single person who hasn't heard of Major Pasaga Halilovic? Do you know that he was the director of the Duvan factory?
A. I haven't heard of him.
Q. All right. If you haven't heard of Pasaga Halilovic, who was the commander of the brigade which was composed of Muslims and was within the composition of the army of Republika Srpska, have you heard of Major Sejfudin Guri, for example, who was the Chief of Staff of that particular unit?
A. No.
Q. So you haven't heard of Sejfudin Guri either. And he was also a professor teaching protection and self-defence at the agricultural school before the war. Do you know about that?
A. No.
Q. Have you heard of Captain Sead Tikvec then?
A. No.
Q. Have you heard of Captain Hajrudin Hajro, who was commander of the artillery in that brigade?
A. In the Republika Srpska?
Q. Yes, in the VRS, the army of Republika Srpska, the 3rd Semberija Brigade. 18311
A. No, I haven't heard of him.
Q. It was almost 100 per cent Muslim.
A. Well, that would appear, sir, that the Serbs didn't go into battle at all, that it was just the Muslims.
Q. What I'm saying is that many Muslims from Bijeljina resisted the attacks and stood up to the attacks launched by extremists who had blocked Bijeljina and who were engaged in attacking the region. These are people who still live in Bijeljina today and who without a doubt are Muslims themselves.
Sir, have you heard of Dr. Nedzad Havic, for example, who was head of the medical corps in the brigade?
A. No.
Q. You haven't heard about him either?
A. No.
Q. All right. And what about Joldic Jusuf? Does the name ring a bell?
A. No.
Q. How about Samir Joldic? Do you know him? They're all people from Bijeljina.
A. I don't know them. If they were there in Bijeljina, well, I don't know them.
Q. Do you know Alija Omerovic?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Salcin Mehic or Alija Durakovic? Do you know them?
A. No. 18312 BLANK PAGE 18313
Q. They're all from Bijeljina. How about Ramo Durakovic and Sead Becirovic?
A. Well, you're quoting names, the whole of Bijeljina, but I don't know any of them who were in the Republika Srpska.
Q. How about Alija Berberovic, or Emil Vilic? Do you know them?
A. No.
Q. Or Ferid Teric?
A. No.
Q. Well, all right. I'm not going to read out any more names. The list is a long one. They're all the names of Muslims who were in the units of the army of Republika Srpska, precisely from your town, Bijeljina, and you're testifying about that. And do you know that that particular brigade held a whole section of the front which ran for dozens of kilometres?
A. And are you saying they all went on a voluntary basis?
Q. Well, if they didn't want to go to the front, they could have turned round and gone back. It was a whole brigade. There couldn't have been anybody behind them.
A. Yes, sir, but where were their families? They left their families behind. You leave your family and they send you to the front. You escape to the other side and they kill your wife and children, sir.
Q. You mean the whole brigade?
A. Yes, the whole brigade.
Q. All right. Then that's a very good explanation that you've just given. My information tells me that the unit held positions from Orasje 18314 to Brcko.
A. And where were their families? An example: My brothers. They went to the front line, and their families remained in Bijeljina. Had they tried to escape, their families would have been killed.
Q. Do you know that apart from Bijeljina another well-known Muslim unit within the composition of the army of Republika Srpska was the Mesa Selimovic detachment from Derventa. Have you heard of them?
A. There were several thousand Muslims in that one.
Q. All right. So you're saying you know nothing about all that, and you consider that the facts I have just quoted are not correct and true. All right. Fine.
A. They can't be correct and true.
Q. Fine. Very well. Now, tell me this: As you claim that in the village of Amajlije --
A. Yes.
Q. -- members of some Serb formations were put up, accommodated.
A. Yes.
Q. And I wrote -- made a note of this yesterday, of what you said. You said that whoever comes to Amajlije was either slaughtered or tortured because it was a kind of camp.
A. Yes, yes, that's right.
Q. Do you know that there was no camp at all in Amajlije, or any formations or units.
A. That's what you say.
Q. What did you say? 18315
A. That's what you say.
Q. Yes, that's what I claim on the basis of my information.
A. But that's not right, sir. There was one.
Q. There was a centre in the village of Popovi which is quite opposite to Amajlije.
A. It was the village of Amajlije, sir.
Q. All right. Fine. As you say so. We'll be able to establish the truth very easily on that point.
Now, tell me this, please, since you didn't know about Izo Beg, you hadn't heard of him who was the secretary of the Serbian Radical Party, do you happen to know Albin Arifovic, the son of the president of the municipality of Bijeljina, Saki Arifovic, the mayor of the municipality, and this Albin Arifovic was a man who worked in the coffee bar named Srbija, Srbija.
A. No, I don't know.
Q. He was a Muslim. He was an employee there.
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you know that?
A. No.
Q. How about Professor Rasim Jusupovic? Have you heard of him? Have you heard of Professor Rasim Jusupovic?
A. No.
Q. He gave an interview for the Muslim media in the year 2000 in which he said that the Muslims had a great deal of protection from this man Mirko Blagojevic whom you blame and hold responsible of the leader of 18316 the Serbian Radical Party in Bijeljina.
A. Because he -- people want to go back and they have nowhere to go back to, sir. I'm not interested in Bijeljina, sir. I've lost my health, and I have no intention of going back there.
Q. Do you know of an open letter written by Mirko Blagojevic and dated 1992, sent to all the authorities, telling them that the Serbian authorities from Bijeljina will not allow any hair of the Muslims' head to be harmed or allow any Muslim, not a single Muslim, to be expelled from Bijeljina? Do you know about that letter?
A. Yes I do.
Q. That nothing would happen.
A. Nothing will happen but they will be slaughtered, their throats will be slit. What did he do with Redzep and Cosa?
Q. We'll come to Cosa in due course.
A. As you've just asked me that.
Q. Yes, I'm asking you that. You're speaking untruths when you say that Cosa's sister told you that Cosa had been killed.
A. Yes, when she came to the hospital.
Q. This sister of Cosa's gave an interview to the Sarajevo paper Oslobodjenje and said that he died at home. So in her interview that's what she says.
A. What did you say, died?
JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer the question. It's been put that this man died at home.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He died voluntarily, did he? Of his 18317 own free will?
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Well, I don't know that anybody dies of their own free will, voluntarily, but between being killed and dying in your own home, there's a big difference.
A. He was completely deformed. There are witnesses, sir, who saw him personally and would be able to testify. He didn't have a human face any more.
Q. So what his sister said for the Sarajevo Oslobodjenje is probably a lie, is it?
JUDGE MAY: No. That's a comment.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Do you know Jasmin Sabic, nicknamed Jasko, who used to work in the sugar factory and moved to Switzerland and who is still a sympathiser of the Serbian Radical Party to this day and one of their sponsors? Do you know of him? And he lives in Switzerland, so nobody can persecute him there, can they?
A. And he sent money for the army of Republika Srpska, did he? What did you say? That he sent money?
Q. I didn't say that he sent money for the army of Republika Srpska. What I said was that he was a sympathiser of the Serbian Radical Party.
A. Yes, I do know him.
JUDGE MAY: We are not being helped by this particularly about events at the moment. So let's move on to something else rather than reading out a series of names about which the witness knows nothing. 18318
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Please, on page 3, paragraph 1, you speak about an incident that took place when a bomb, a grenade was thrown at the Cafe Istanbul; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that the bomb was thrown by a man called Goran.
A. Yes; Goran or Zoran, I don't remember.
Q. And do you happen to know, because there are documents to evidence this, first that the incident took place some ten days prior to the outbreak of the war, not one day before the war broke out?
A. Ten days you say? What did you say?
Q. Ten days before the war broke out.
A. Yes, that's right. No, that's not correct.
Q. I am satisfied with any of your answers, whether you say yes or no, because we'll be able to establish the truth. Now, do you know that the man who threw the bomb was not called Goran?
A. Well, he was either Goran or Zoran.
Q. Well, in your statement you say that this was not established, and my information tells me that the man's name was Aleksandar Zekic, that he was from Dvorovi near Bijeljina, and that he was arrested straight away and taken off to the prison in Tuzla on order from the head of the Secretariat for Internal Affairs in Bijeljina, and his name was Jesuric Predrag, the man who issued the orders. But this Aleksandar Zekovic was nicknamed Andalaga, and he threw the bomb, he was arrested and taken off 18319 to the prison in Tuzla. And all this took place about ten days before the war broke out. So the police intervened and arrested the man.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
JUDGE MAY: I've stopped your microphone because you're going on much too long. There are a series of questions there. We'll go through them one by one.
What is suggested by the accused, and you can help us or not, Mr. Gusalic, is that the man who threw the bomb was called Aleksandar Zekic. That's what he suggests. Can you help us as to whether that is or may be the case or not?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name for sure, but I know he's from Dvorovi. I thought his name was Zoran.
JUDGE MAY: The next point is --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it is true that he was taken to the prison in Tuzla.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So have we cleared that up? Have we also cleared up the fact that this was about ten days before the beginning of the war?
A. No.
Q. Well, how many days prior to the beginning of the war was this incident in which this man threw the grenade and was arrested and taken to prison by order of the chief of the SUP, a Serb, Jesuric Predrag?
A. They were all Serbs, or most of them were Serbs in the SUP in the larger towns, mostly. 18320
Q. It is normal in Bijeljina that most of them should be Serbs, because Bijeljina was mostly inhabited by Serbs.
A. No. Bijeljina as such was a Muslim majority. The town had a majority.
Q. But it doesn't matter. That's easy to establish. We have a population census, and it's easy to know. There is no point in us bothering over that.
Do you know that this guy, this man who threw the grenade, was arrested, taken to Tuzla, that he was a mental patient and an alcoholic?
A. I heard about that. Apparently when you're talking, everyone was a mental patient that graduated from special schools.
Q. No. Quite the opposite. Only the individuals, specific individuals that I mentioned. They are data that I have. So regardless of the fact that he was a mental patient and an alcoholic, he was arrested and taken to the prison in Tuzla because he did what he did. He was arrested by Serbs and taken to the prison by Serbs. But very well. In your statement you said that in those days in the Istanbul coffee bar, seven Muslims were wounded; five men and two women. This is stated in your statement. Is this what you said?
A. There were some wounded Serb as well, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you about, Mr. Gusalic. Do you know the name of Goran Vasalic?
A. Yes.
Q. I see. You know him. He is the man known as Goran Kriska, a well-known basketball player from Bijeljina. Do you know him? 18321
A. Yes.
Q. So he's the Vasilic man. Do you know that he's a Serb and that he lives in the area called Kriska?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that this Goran was wounded in that very Istanbul coffee bar?
A. Yes, I do know that.
Q. Was he in hospital with you?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Do you know that a young woman called Sofija, also a Serb woman, was wounded at that same attack?
A. I do know that, Mr. Milosevic, yes. I do know that.
Q. So do you think that this attack can be described as an attack by a Serb nationalist against Muslims or was it an attack by an alcoholic who couldn't account for his actions and who committed a crime?
JUDGE MAY: Don't bother to answer that. Characterisation of the attack is not for the witness. He can mainly give evidence purely about what happened. It's not for him to describe it. Yes.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Very well. Since I have information here that there was a spirit of tolerance between Serbs and Muslims in Bijeljina, that they lived in harmony right up until that day when the Green Berets and the so-called League blocked Bijeljina and set up barricades and captured, took control of Bijeljina. Do you know that, for instance, in the Srbija coffee bar, owned by -- 18322
JUDGE MAY: You've put things -- you can't simply put things and just pass by.
The first question -- two questions in what's been put, Mr. Gusalic. The first question: Was there a spirit of tolerance between the Serbs and Muslims in Bijeljina before the war?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was.
JUDGE MAY: The next question: And that was broken up, if you will, when the Green Berets set up barricades and captured, it's said, and took control of Bijeljina. Did the Green Berets take control of Bijeljina, first of all?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what Mr. Milosevic implies under the Green Berets.
JUDGE MAY: No. Don't worry about that for the moment, what he means by the Green Berets. Let's look at it another way. Was it a Muslim force of some sort who broke up the previous spirit of tolerance and harmony?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say. There was tension.
JUDGE MAY: Just tell us how it happened. Just explain to us how it all started, if you will.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was tension because people were coming from Serbia to this village of Amajlije that Mr. Milosevic says I'm lying about, and this was common knowledge, that attack was being prepared on Bijeljina.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 18323
Q. Very well. Are you denying that apart from the incidents we described, there was nothing until the Green Berets and members of the Patriotic League of People, Muslim formations, took over control of Bijeljina, erected barricades, and blocked the whole city? Are you aware of that?
A. Everyone has to defend himself when he sees that somebody wants to kill him.
Q. What were they defending themselves against when nothing had happened before that? Why did they block the town, erect barricades and distribute weapons? Why? Had anyone attacked them before that? Or were they expecting to be attacked and that's why they did that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know all the places that were blocked and where the roadblocks were set up?
A. By the Muslims?
Q. Yes, the Muslims. So you don't know about that? No?
A. No.
Q. Very well. That's fine. We have some other witnesses here and we'll be able to clear that up with them.
Now, tell me, please, what was Izet Gogic doing, known as Goga the Gypsy?
A. What was he called?
Q. Goga the Gypsy. That's what it says in my notes here.
A. First of all, he's not a Gypsy, he's a Muslim. And he worked privately. 18324 BLANK PAGE 18325
Q. My question is what he did.
A. He worked as a mason, as a private builder.
Q. How did you meet?
A. We had known each other for some time.
Q. Is it true that just before the war he was a horse carriage driver?
A. I'm unable to say.
Q. Do you know that he was given money by your party, the SDA, to open a coffee bar? That is he was given this money by Ferid Zecevic?
A. You mean Mirko Blagojevic?
Q. No, no. I'm talking about Izet Gogic.
A. So you think Mirko gave him money.
Q. No. I'm saying that he got money from the SDA. Not from SRS but from the SDA, from Ferid Zecevic.
A. No, sir. That's something you didn't note down well in your record.
Q. And this Izet Gogic and Cosa the Boxer, is that right, they spoke to you before you started off to throw the grenade. Did they persuade you to do that?
A. Nobody persuaded me.
Q. Who gave you the bomb?
A. Goga gave it to me because I didn't have the money to buy one.
Q. So Goga gave you the bomb. Was Cosa there too?
A. Yes, we were there together.
Q. And they told you to go and throw the bomb into the Cafe Srbija? 18326
A. No one told me, sir.
Q. So they gave you a bomb to play with?
A. They gave me the bomb.
Q. And do you know how much time Cosa the Boxer had spent in prison?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know that he was convicted to prison sentences for several years on several occasions for various criminal offences? You know nothing about that?
A. No.
Q. Well, that's fine. And you are claiming that he was killed rather than dying at home.
A. Of course he was killed. He was massacred. He was mutilated.
Q. Do you know who Cosa's sister is married to?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know where she lives now?
A. I don't know.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what are we going on about here? You're wasting a great deal of time, it seems to be, quite unnecessarily with these side issues. Remember, your time is limited. This witness has given very serious evidence about what happened him to in the camps. If you challenge that, if you suggest it's not true, then you should do so while he's here giving evidence instead of wasting time in this way with side issues. If you don't challenge it, of course we accept the evidence, but if you do challenge it, you should cross-examine him about it.
THE ACCUSED: Surely it is clear, Mr. May, that I am denying all 18327 his statement.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Is it -- do you know that this same Cosa brought men from Sandzak --
JUDGE MAY: Never mind the statements. You should move on to the camps. Your time is limited. If you're suggesting that what he said about what happened in the camps isn't true in some way, then you should put that part of the case to him instead of these side issues. Now, move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, do you consider it to be a side issue as to how the war in Bijeljina started, how the Green Berets blocked Bijeljina?
JUDGE MAY: You have spent the best part of 40 minutes on this. Your time is limited. You have had probably more than half of it. You should move on to something else. The witness says he can't help any more.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will move on to something else to meet your request, Mr. May, since you're talking about camps. I have here two documents which I also received from the side opposite under Rule 68 disclosure. For one, I don't know what it is at all because I was only given two pages, pages four and five of it. They probably felt that they didn't need to give me the whole document. It is marked 00290957, and it's a report which speaks about -- what was its name? Batkovic. Batkovic. And it says: [In English] "Approximately 1.000 Muslim prisoners was visited in Batkovic in north-eastern Bosnia. The prisoners 18328 did not complain of ill-treatment, and in general, appeared to be in good health. However, they sleep on straw bedding on the floor of a cavernous unheated stable where living conditions will become intolerable as the cold weather arrives."
[Interpretation] I'm reading with interruptions because I'm listening to the interpreters, and I would like it to be correctly interpreted to the witness, as it has been done indeed.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So Mr. Gusalic, can you comment on this? As far as I'm able to tell, this is a report of the International Red Cross that visited Batkovic.
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. Well, they're saying here that the prisoners are not complaining of ill-treatment and that, generally speaking, they appear to be in good health. That is what is stated in the report. I gave the page that I was given from the party opposite. It is no report of mine. So is that true or not?
A. No.
Q. So it's not true. Okay.
MR. NICE: I think the report is not Red Cross but Special Rapporteur of the United Nations.
JUDGE MAY: Have we got the original?
MR. NICE: I have the same extract that's been served on --
JUDGE MAY: We may have an extract.
MR. NICE: Yes, because we haven't served the entire report. I 18329 can dig it out and see how much it amounts to in full but I think it's UN Special Rapporteur not Red Cross.
JUDGE MAY: The sensible thing, I think, would be to mark it for identification for the moment and for you to produce, if you would, the relevant parts of the original so that we can have it in front us, including a date of the inspection.
We'll mark it for identification and we'll get the original out of the Prosecution and we will exhibit it. Perhaps we'll have a number, please.
THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Defence Exhibit 114, Your Honours, marked for identification.
JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. If you'd like to hand in those two pages so that a copy can be made.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, you can take them. And I have highlighted the part that I have quoted. I was only given those two pages in this connection.
And now I have another report which was also served on me under Rule 68 disclosure.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this, as far as I am able to gather, is a report by Reuters dated 1993. Actually, the copyright is 1993, the 26th of February, but it doesn't say which year, and I'll only quote a couple of paragraphs from it: "Bosnian Serbs set up Batkovic [in English] farm which functions normally on the flat lands around soon after the start of the war last April, described as a collection centre for 18330 Muslims and Croats who in any way participated in combat activities or collecting weapons and ammunition. There is no obvious rancor between prisoners and Serbs, and the International Red Cross visits every week." [Interpretation] This was given to me in its entirety, and at the end, since they're interviewing this Savic who, as I am able to gather, was some sort of an official over there, and it says: [In English] "Returning Serbs were in worse physical condition than Muslims and Croats from Batkovic, that there is no evidence of violence or malnutrition."
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Now, is what I have quoted from the document and contained in the document correct or not, Mr. Gusalic? You can say yes or no, whichever you like, and then we can move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I'd like to tender this as well. Could you please include this document, Mr. May.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, that is a pure lie.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. Very well.
JUDGE MAY: It says two things. First of all, it was merely a collection centre for Muslims and Croats who had participated in combat activities. Is there any truth in that?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No truth whatsoever. They were all civilians. Just two young guys were captured who were up at the frontline. They were otherwise all women, children, and elderly persons.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And is it true that the International Red Cross every week paid a 18331 visit, as it says in this statement? This is not a Serbian statement or report.
A. I don't know if it was every week, but, yes, it did come by often, and they did not register the ten of us.
Q. Not the ten of you.
A. Yes. The ten of us who were beaten, the specials. The elderly persons were not recorded either, nor were the children. The Yugoslav army, the Muslims who were released, dismissed, they too were not registered. They were hidden.
Q. So who then was registered? All right. Well, we'll be able to establish that. I just wish to ascertain one point. You yourself were not registered. That's right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you read your name from the list a moment ago?
A. Sir, I was registered in Doboj, in Doboj camp, not in Batkovici.
Q. So what you read out, is that from the Doboj camp, the list you read out from? Was the list from the Doboj camp?
A. They were the young guys who were in Batkovic.
Q. What did you say?
A. In Batkovic.
Q. Yes. Well, you're on that same list, aren't you? So how do you say that you weren't registered if you can read your name from the list?
A. You and I speak the same language, and I said that we were registered in Doboj. In the first two and a half or three months, I was beaten and hidden away and then transported to Doboj where the Red Cross 18332 found me later. Somebody told them. And the ten of us were registered then.
Q. All right. I cannot accept that explanation of yours.
A. You don't have to accept anything, as far as I can see.
Q. As to those events when the war broke out in Bijeljina, how many people from Sandzak did you see and how many Albanians from Kosovo did you see? How many of one and how many of the other? You can give me separate figures.
A. Well, I don't know exactly.
Q. All right. Roughly. A rough estimate. I don't -- I'm not asking for an exact figure.
A. Well, I didn't see a single one.
Q. What did you say?
A. I didn't see a single one.
Q. You didn't see a single one. And do you know that it was precisely this man Cosa who you say was a friend of yours who brought in people from Sandzak and Albanians to Bijeljina in preparation for the blockade of Bijeljina and the war against the Serbs?
A. What did you say?
Q. You don't know?
A. No.
Q. And do you know who Djuk Smail is?
A. I don't know. I'm not good at remembering names. I don't even know my children's names.
Q. You don't know your children's names? 18333
A. No.
Q. Oh, fine.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. May, as you have cautioned me and said that I asked improper questions, there are some other questions which in your opinion could be -- have been along these lines, but the witness himself says he doesn't know the names of his children, and the improper questions that I asked are relevant in order to assess the credibility of this person's testimony, a person who was --
JUDGE MAY: I don't think he means that literally he doesn't remember his children's names or whether he forgets them from time to time. It's a common enough experience for anybody. If you want to raise something along these lines, we better go into private session.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Let's move into private session just for a second.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
[Private session]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted] 18334 Page 18334 - redacted - private session
18335 BLANK PAGE 18336
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[Open session]
THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: The two matters are these: Mr. Nice, on Exhibit 414, we did not exhibit tab 2, as I understand it.
MR. NICE: Correct.
JUDGE MAY: And we should remove that then from our bundles.
MR. NICE: Correct.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. And Mr. Milosevic, you want to exhibit your Reuters report; is that right? Very well. Could you hand it 18337 in, please, and we'll get a number for it.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Gusalic --
JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're going to get a number for the Reuters report.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Reuters report will be Defence Exhibit 115.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Gusalic, do you know a company called Djuk Auto in Bijeljina?
A. Djuk Auto did you say?
Q. Yes, Djuk Auto. It had premises, large premises. Obrijez. You know where Obrijez is, I presume.
A. Yes.
Q. And it had large office premises there at Obrijez, didn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know that that is where the Green Berets and Patriotic League had their camp? Do you know about that?
A. No.
Q. All right. Fine. And do you happen to know some people who were -- had nicknames Sajto and Gara?
A. Yes.
Q. You know them. Well, then, you ought to know that it is precisely those people that conducted the training in that particular camp.
A. I know the guys, but I didn't know that they did any training.
Q. But they are from the Silosi settlement, district; right? 18338
A. Yes, but I didn't know about the other.
Q. But you do know the men?
A. Yes, I know them.
Q. And you know nothing of their activities.
A. No.
Q. And you know nothing about either the Red -- Green Berets or the Patriotic League that were trained there at that camp at Obrijez? You know nothing about that, is that what you say?
A. No, nothing about it.
Q. Right. Fine. Just tell me this: When you set out towards the Srbija cafe, were there any incidents that took place before that, any incident before that?
A. The bomb was thrown at the Istanbul cafe. That was enough.
Q. So that bomb was thrown at the Cafe Istanbul.
A. And uniformed persons were being collected up.
Q. When was the bomb at the Istanbul thrown before?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. A day or two before.
Q. So according to you one day, although here in the statement you say two days, and my information tells me that it was about ten days before, but immediately before you set out on that particular day to throw a bomb, nothing was actually going on, nothing was happening; right?
A. How do you mean "nothing"? How can you say "nothing"?
Q. Well, what was going on then? 18339
A. The army was amassing.
Q. What army?
A. An attack on Bijeljina was being organised.
Q. What did you say?
A. An attack on Bijeljina was being organised from the Srbija cafe.
Q. An attack on Bijeljina, you say?
A. No, sir. The -- Seselj's men, Arkan's men, and Mirko's men, and all the others were collecting up there.
Q. Do you mean to say that they attacked Bijeljina before you threw the bomb?
A. They were preparing to attack Bijeljina.
Q. How do you know?
A. Because I was in the Srbija cafe. I first went there, then I went back, sir.
Q. But nobody had attacked anybody before that; isn't that right?
A. Well, nobody attacked but they were thinking about it.
Q. You thought that people were preparing an attack; right?
A. Well, they threw a bomb at the Cafe Istanbul, and that happened before. Was that enough? Wasn't that enough? And after that they began to rally their ranks.
Q. But that man was arrested and taken off to Tuzla, and this person was not -- was mentally incompetent and he was taken to prison, and the bomb was thrown at Croats and Serbs.
Are you saying that the Muslim forces had not blocked Bijeljina prior to that, before the conflict in Bijeljina actually broke out? There 18340 was no blockade of Bijeljina, is that what you're saying?
JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that question. Now, this is all repetition about the questions on the cafe. You've dealt with it.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right. As you went to hospital, was there a Muslim barricade set up by the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. There was?
A. Yes.
Q. A moment ago you said there was no blockade.
A. The Muslims held control of the hospital when I was there the first two days.
Q. All right. But when you set off to hospital, there was a Muslim barricade erected there; right?
A. I understand you -- I don't understand you.
Q. There was a Muslim barricade at the hospital?
A. You mean when I was wounded.
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Later on, then?
A. Yes, later on. There were predominantly Muslims by the hospital and the settlements around were Muslim.
Q. All right. Did you know anybody up at the barricade? Is it true that it was by Redzep's house or, rather, between the mosque and Redzep's house, the location of the barricade? 18341
A. I don't know, sir. I was injured and I was going to hospital and there was nobody there then. And during the two or three days that I spent there, they did hold the hospital, and that was sufficient time for me to recuperate.
Q. Well, during those three days, you didn't see the barricade there?
A. No. I was lying in bed.
Q. Well, when did you see a Muslim barricade then if you say that during the first three days you didn't see one?
A. Not barricades, sir. What I saw was that the Muslims were holding the hospital and that area for two or three days. I don't know exactly how long.
Q. Let me just show you a picture. I'm not going to take up too much more of your time. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be in this set. Ah, here it is. Just when I thought it was missing.
Is this -- take a look at this picture and tell me if this is the Muslim barricade set up at Redzep's house or, rather, the machine-gun nest. Just that photograph with the sandbags. Could it be placed onto the ELMO. Is that it? Is that what you saw?
A. How could I see it when I said I hadn't seen it?
Q. But you told me that there was a barricade next to the hospital at one point.
A. No, sir. I said that the Muslims held the hospital for two or three days. I didn't see any barricades, you see. But of course there were barricades. It's normal. It's normal that there were barricades later on, I assume. 18342
Q. So it's normal but you didn't see them. I see, you didn't see them. And you don't recognise this barricade at Redzep's house?
A. How could I recognise it when I didn't see it?
Q. Very well. Please let me have that picture back.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, the picture has never been displayed. May I just have a look at it before it goes back to the accused?
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Show it to the Prosecution, please, and then back to the accused.
MR. NICE: Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, are you all right? Are you okay?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got, at the most, another quarter of an hour, if you need it.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let me try to use those 15 minutes, Mr. May.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You mentioned Dr. Kicanovic, if I remember well.
A. Yes, a doctor from Bijeljina.
Q. Do you know, when this was happening Dr. Kicanovic was not even in Bijeljina, never mind in the hospital. Is that incorrect, what I'm saying?
A. Of course it's incorrect when the man treated me.
Q. Could you describe Dr. Kicanovic for me? What does he look like?
A. An older man. An older man.
Q. Well, please describe him. 18343
A. Grey hair, maybe between 55 and 60. I don't know exactly. I may be wrong. Looking fit.
Q. How much shorter than you?
A. A little shorter than me. A little. Not much.
Q. Very well. You mentioned Andrija Tufekcic, a Croat from Brcko, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what happened to him?
A. He was exchanged.
Q. Do you know that that is not true, that he was killed?
A. Who? Who was killed?
Q. Tufekcic.
A. He was with me in Doboj. That's not true.
Q. I see. It's not true. Very well, well, when was he exchanged?
A. Before me.
Q. He was exchanged before you.
A. Among those first five.
Q. I see. Now, let's look into your explanation that the Serbs were planning an attack on Bijeljina. Did you see any kind of an attack on Bijeljina?
A. Any kind of attack?
Q. Did you see an attack on Bijeljina?
A. I saw the shooting in front of the Srbija coffee bar.
Q. Very well. But who planned the attack on Bijeljina?
A. Mirko, the radicals, and Arkan's men. 18344
Q. How do you know that?
A. How can I not know?
Q. That's not a good answer. How did you know? You didn't attend their meetings. How do you know that they were planning an attack on Bijeljina?
A. What were armed soldiers doing walking around Bijeljina? What for?
Q. But very well. From the Istanbul coffee bar, was fire opened on Serbs who were in the Srbija coffee bar?
A. When the Serbs started shooting, then they responded.
Q. After your incident, yes. So do you consider your wounding in the leg to be an attack by the Serbian side?
A. They never stopped shooting.
Q. And do you remember that the Muslims were carrying weapons from the mosque and by the evening they had already taken control of the city? Is that true or not?
A. I don't know.
Q. And do you remember that weapons in the SDA premises, the Party of Democratic Action, were being distributed by Alija Saracevic?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is that true or not? Say yes or no.
A. I don't know. I don't know.
Q. And do you remember sniper nests on the water tower, the silo, at Zitopromet when Stojan Stojanovic was wounded?
A. How could I remember when I was in hospital? 18345
Q. Very well, then. But that day, before you went to hospital, do you remember harassing the guests at the Semberka Grill Restaurant owned by Ljubisa Rosic?
A. I do not remember. I don't know.
Q. You don't remember. Well, do you remember that you were harassing all the Serbs walking along Marsal Tito Street?
A. Only Serbs?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember that either?
A. No.
Q. And do you know that this attack and the blockade of Bijeljina had spoiled Izetbegovic's plan to capture all locations in Bosnia-Herzegovina at once, and you were in a hurry. You hastened. You did that too quickly, and you spoiled the plan.
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q. Do you know that Alija Izetbegovic addressed a call to the JNA then, an appeal for the JNA to prevent the conflict, and they came to prevent it?
A. Yes, that's what the Plavsic woman said too, that the JNA would resolve everything, and it did indeed at the end.
Q. But did they come to prevent the conflict? I wasn't there so I don't know. Alija Izetbegovic asked the JNA to prevent conflicts in Bijeljina.
A. To come and kill people. 18346 BLANK PAGE 18347
Q. Well, did the JNA come?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Well, did they prevent the conflict?
A. Yes, they prevented it. They killed people. And Arkan's men and the Seselj's men went on looting and taking the booty to Serbia.
Q. So you're claiming the JNA came to kill Muslims and to loot?
A. Yes. Yes. From the garrison. Yes. They were based there.
Q. Do you know that that night just when the Muslims attacked and blocked Muslims and captured the centre of the city, the hospital, the Municipal Assembly, the electricity board and other buildings before the Serbs reacted in any way whatsoever? Do you know that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And do you know that that same night, on the 31st of March, the warehouse of the barracks was broken into and weapons distributed publicly to the Muslims? Is that true or not?
A. That is a bare-faced lie.
Q. Very well. And do you know that in the park a bunker was formed, as in other places in the town? I showed you one of those a moment ago. Very well, then. Is it clear that that is what provoked the beginning of the war and not any attack by Serbs? Is that true or not, Mr. Gusalic?
A. No, it's not true. That's not how it was.
Q. I see. So you are not aware of the snipers from the silo or from the bunkers or the barricades and the fact that Bijeljina was taken control of and completely blocked before the Serbs reacted at all? So you 18348 don't know anything about that?
A. No.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have got five minutes left.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And do you know that this operation, that is the attack on the Serbs in Bijeljina, was led by Hasan Piric, who was later killed? Had you heard of him?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know that a unit called the Black Swans bore his name because he founded that unit, he set it up?
A. Hasan Siric maybe, sir.
Q. Is that right or not?
A. That man did not get killed. He's alive.
Q. Did he set up the Black Swans unit that was called after him?
A. I don't know.
Q. Very well. Can you say when the Muslim forces took control of the city? When exactly did that happen? When did the Muslim forces take control of the city?
JUDGE MAY: I don't know how long we're going on with this. You've got two minutes more.
Did the Muslims at any stage take control of the city? Can you help us with that, Mr. Gusalic?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the whole city. For example, the hospital was controlled by the Muslims maybe for two to three days.
JUDGE MAY: Can you help us as to when that was or not. 18349
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 31st, up until perhaps the 2nd, 3rd.
JUDGE MAY: Of what month?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] April, March/April.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Very well. What the Muslim forces had captured and blocked in Bijeljina, when did that happen? Just tell me when, on what day.
A. I was wounded on the 31st, around 8.00.
Q. Was it then that the Muslims blocked Bijeljina?
A. I don't know what to say. I don't know when they blocked it. I was in hospital.
Q. And do you know that in the settlement called Vozderic, the Muslims had some conflicts among themselves and there were some casualties?
A. I hadn't heard of that. I hear it from you now.
Q. And tell me, then, how many weapons did the Muslims in Bijeljina have when they blocked the town regardless whether they blocked the whole town or part of it? You say that you know about the hospital and nothing more. I showed you one machine-gun nest which is of course not in the hospital. So how much weapons did the Muslims have then?
A. I don't know. There were some hunting rifles. Mostly hunting rifles.
Q. Well, how many?
A. A small number.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. A small number. A small number. 18350
Q. I see. And are you aware of the fact that after the situation was settled and calmed in the town of Bijeljina - and when I say Bijeljina, I mean the town of Bijeljina - that the Muslims surrendered more than 500 long-barrelled weapons, which means more than 500 rifles and automatic rifles, and that some had fled with weapons, but over 500 were surrendered when the situation calmed down? You don't know that?
A. No.
JUDGE MAY: One more question, Mr. Milosevic, and then your time is up.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Tell me then, since you're claiming in answer to my question as to whether you knew that Alija Izetbegovic had asked the JNA to calm the situation down, when did you see the JNA in Bijeljina? Or, rather, to make my question shorter, during those conflicts which flared up in Bijeljina, was the JNA present at all in Bijeljina?
A. Yes. Mrs. Plavsic, she said that. And I think she made sure that they should come to their assistance.
Q. I am not -- leave Plavsic alone. I'll have occasion to ask her questions. My question, Mr. Gusalic, is in those clashes on the 31st of March, the 1st and 2nd of April, did members of the JNA participate in any way?
A. Yes. Yes. In the attack on Bijeljina, yes.
Q. Where did the members of the JNA attack Bijeljina from?
A. In collaboration with local Serbs.
Q. I said where did they attack Bijeljina from? 18351
A. From across the Drina.
Q. So they crossed the Drina, JNA members, and attacked Bijeljina?
JUDGE MAY: You've had your time. Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions for this witness?
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have some questions, Your Honour, for a few minutes.
JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.
MR. NICE: Possibly hopefully before Mr. Tapuskovic asks questions, with the Special Rapporteur's report, it's now available for you. It's not a particularly thick document, as you can see. However, there are two points. First of all, by reading the entries at the back of the document, it would appear that the visits to Batkovic camp were on the 17th of October, 1992.
The second point is this: The accused was only provided with two pages because those were the only two pages that were Rule 68, in our judgement and, therefore, those went his way, and they contain not only comments on Batkovic but also material on other topics of interest to the Chamber and which I suppose I could technically adduce in re-examination if I wanted to. But the balance of the document also contains opinions, some of which are by no means favourable to the interests that the accused of course seeks to advance and therefore the Chamber might want to exercise caution before deciding whether to mark the whole document as an exhibit or to mark it for identification or something of that sort.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I just ask one more question. I have several, but just one, because it relates to his 18352 statements, and I think it is important. It won't take more than one minute.
JUDGE MAY: That would be it.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Gusalic, is it true that in the period we are talking about, you appeared on Bijeljina television and also in Trnovo. You gave an interview to a foreign TV station, and that in both statements you said that the Muslims were to blame for the war, that you were treated correctly, that you had mistreated the Serbs and so on? Is this true? I am referring to two of your interviews, on Bijeljina television and a foreign TV station in Trnovo.
A. They told me to say that but I didn't say that. How could I say something that was not true?
Q. Did you say that or not?
A. What?
Q. What I'm saying that you said.
A. No, sir. No, that's why they beat me.
Q. So there are no such statements of yours?
A. I don't understand. They don't exist.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've really had your time, and if you want to ask questions like that, you should -- just a moment. Mr. Gusalic, please. We're not going to go on with this. The witness has answered. If there are other matters to clear up, the Prosecution can do so in re-examination.
Right. We're going to adjourn now. Twenty minutes. 18353
--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, along with the statement of Mr. Gusalic which he gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 11th and 12th of March, 1997, pursuant to Article 66, another of his statements was presented, one which he gave on the 27th of November, 1993, at the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the centre for security, the sector for state security of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As I say, that was on the 27th of November, 1993. And it was provided pursuant to Rule 66. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusalic, you spoke today during the examination-in-chief about what you saw, as you yourself say, in Smajne Vode, when in a truck -- when you loaded into a truck, as you yourself said, 40 civilians who had lost their lives in the way that you described.
A. Svjetlice.
Q. What?
A. Svjetlice.
Q. I said 40.
A. Svjetlice. At Smajne Vode we dug trenches.
Q. Ah, so you mean the place was different. Right. I apologise. My mistake.
How do you explain or, rather, can you explain to the Court - not to take up too much time, let me ask you directly - that in your statement 18354 dated the 27th of November, 1993, that is to say very soon after the events at the material time, you make no mention of that, about what you testified today during the examination-in-chief. You didn't mention it then either.
A. Well, lots of things were happening.
Q. I understand that. But this is an event which would merit being stated first if you did indeed see something and if this was done. Can you explain why in that 1993 statement of yours you didn't mention it the way you did today? Can you or can you not?
A. In that first statement, I make no mention of the sexual abuses either.
Q. Well, that's precisely what I wanted to ask you. That was my second question. Why at that time nor on the 11th and 12th of March, 1997, did you make no mention of the sexual abuse to which you were exposed? That's precisely what I wanted to ask you. Can you explain that to us? You didn't say it in 1993, and you didn't say it to the Tribunal's investigators either. Can you explain that to the Court?
A. Yes, of course, sir, I can explain it. I think it was the shame. I think it's a shame -- it's shameful to talk about those things, but finally I came to realise that it wasn't my shame, it was shame on the people who did it and shame on the people who issued orders to that effect. It is their shame.
Q. All right. Thank you. I can understand that. But how can you explain not having mentioned such a terrible thing that happened to you if you truly did see the victims that you talk about? 18355
JUDGE MAY: He's explained that.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Yes. And one more question referring to what you said in your statement of the 11th March. You said that you were taken out of the camp, and you went to do trench digging, and you say to the investigators: "We had to dig trenches up at the front but not during the shooting." Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you explain to the Trial Chamber the following: You said that there were three persons wounded, three prisoners wounded who had been injured. How were they wounded and injured if there was no shooting while you were trench digging? Can you explain that?
A. On the day we were digging the trenches, the Serbs started shooting, but a grenade fell, a shell fell. We were divided up into groups, and a shell fell and that's how it happened.
Q. So in other words, what you told the investigators is not correct, that you had to, you were forced to dig trenches but there was no shooting. So there was shooting, if I understand you correctly.
A. Well, mostly there was no shooting.
Q. Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
Q. Just a few more questions, Mr. Gusalic. And on the topic of statements, you've been asked questions about two of them, or -- two of them. The one provided to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Tuzla was actually dated the 27th, not the 17th of November, 1993. 18356 Can you remember now if that was read over to you after you prepared it, whether you checked it for accuracy?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. In that statement, there's a reference that wasn't drawn to your attention, to the following: When you were at Batkovic camp, it says you were taken off to do forced labour. You had to fetch and carry different loads, and you were taken to do trench digging at Svjetlice, Smajne Vode and Predujevo. Your statement then goes on to say that you were taken to the frontline to carry away the bodies of Chetniks who had been killed and that you were forced to dig up your own dead fighters and to replace them with the bodies of Chetniks. Now, that's not something you've covered in your evidence today. Do you remember saying those things to those investigators in 1993? Carrying away the bodies of Chetniks who had been killed?
A. Yes.
Q. And digging up your own dead fighters --
A. Yes, but that was not in Batkovic, that was in Doboj.
Q. And digging up your own dead fighters and replacing them with the bodies of Chetniks. Was that something that happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Whereabouts did that happen?
A. Doboj.
Q. You also in this statement mention being forced to eat hay while you were imprisoned in Batkovic, being forced to do that by Zoko and Major [phoen] as you've described them to be. Was that true? 18357 BLANK PAGE 18358
A. Yes.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's of course entirely a matter for the Chamber --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, had it been hay, that wouldn't have been a bad thing. This was straw, because straw is sharp.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's entirely a matter for the Chamber whether, in light of the cross-examination and what the witness says both about his reading of the statements or having them read to him whether the Chamber wants them exhibited. It would appear that there is no evidence from the witness that the statements contain anything that is false. It appears indeed that they contain material that is accurate, and the only question is whether the omission of the particular passage is of significance.
They will be available should the Chamber decide it wants them.
JUDGE MAY: We will consider that.
MR. NICE:
Q. On the topic of the statements, perhaps the last question, the finding of the Muslim bodies that had been slaughtered it appears is not in either of these statements, that is either the one made in 1993 or the one made to the ICTY later. Do you remember discussing that when you came here in the last few days, in fact a couple of weeks, in preparation of giving your evidence? Do you remember discussing the finding of those dead Muslim bodies?
A. Yes, we did discuss that.
Q. The accused is suggesting to you I think in some way that because 18359 it's not in your statement you've made it up and it's not true. Is it true? Did it happen?
A. It did happen, and there are other witnesses, people who were with me when we loaded it up, loaded them up.
Q. Just a few more questions, Mr. Gusalic, then. You don't want to identify the particular person who took you to hospital after the grenade. Just answer this question, please, if you will: Were you taken to the hospital by somebody whom you knew? Just yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. Was he in some way a friend of yours? Just yes or no.
A. Not a close friend but an acquaintance.
Q. And is it because you know him and you would be giving his identity that you don't want to name him in this court? Is that the reason?
A. Yes. He's a family man.
Q. You've been asked questions by the accused about who was in the cafe before you rode there on your horse with the grenade. How long before you went with the grenade had you been in that cafe yourself?
A. I don't really understand your question.
Q. My mistake entirely. How many minutes before you went with the grenade, or how many hours or how many days before you went with the grenade had you been in the cafe to see who was there?
A. Not long. Not much time went by. Perhaps an hour.
Q. When you were last in the cafe, were there any Muslims there?
A. In the Srbija cafe, you mean? 18360
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. You've spoken --
A. At least I couldn't notice any.
Q. You spoke of how Muslims were compelled to fight because of threats that would be made to their families left at home. Is this something that you experienced yourself or that you were simply told of by other people?
A. I didn't have occasion to experience it myself. I was in the camp. But my brothers did. Two of my brothers experienced it. They went to the -- for the Republika Srpska, and their family stayed behind.
Q. Did you hear of this happening to any other families, and if so, give us an idea, if you can, how many other such families told you of this.
A. Well, the majority of Muslims who went to war for the Serb republic, for the Republika Srpska, had threats against them mostly.
Q. You were asked a question about whether there was a detention centre at Popovi as opposed to Amajlije. The Chamber can see both those towns or villages marked on page 29 immediately to the east of Bijeljina. Do you know both those villages, Popovi and Amajlije?
A. Yes, of course I do.
Q. Do they lie --
A. I know them very well.
Q. Do they lie on the same road? It's not clear from our map, but do they lie on the same road that turns off the road that would cross over to 18361 Serbia at Badovinci?
A. Taking the road from Bijeljina to Amajlije you go straight, and Popovi you turn left. But they're not far from each other, they're quite near.
Q. Our map is inadequate for these purposes. You've told us of the Serbs gathering at Amajlije. Was there any particular reason why that village was chosen for them, or by them?
A. It was a short distance from Serbia, and they were getting assistance to attack Bijeljina from there. So across the river is Serbia.
Q. Did you see the detention centre at Amajlije yourself or were you simply told about it?
A. The Muslims couldn't go there of late. People talked about it.
Q. It's been put to you that you were registered by the Red Cross. You've said you were registered or first registered at Doboj. The list that we've produced purports -- is said to be a list from the time of your second stay at Batkovic.
Having been registered at Doboj, did you remain a registered prisoner during your second stay at the Batkovic camp?
A. Yes. When the Red Cross does the registering, wherever you're hiding, you're protected.
MR. NICE: Can the witness -- can the Court view from the overhead projector, if it doesn't have it already, a couple of passages from the Reuters report on the visit to the Batkovic camp, and I'll read out the entries for the witness to follow. I've forgotten or failed to record the number. 115, Defence Exhibit 115. I'm grateful to Ms. Wee. 18362
MR. NICE:
Q. You had put to you by the accused certain passages of a report from an international newspaper report provided by Reuters. On the first page, towards the bottom of the page, the report says this, that the president of the Serb commission, Major Savic, described Batkovic as a "... collection centre for Muslims and Croats who in any way participated in combat activities or collecting weapons and ammunitions." Was it true to suggest to the newspaper that everyone in Batkovic had been in some way involved in combat activities or was that false?
A. That is a blatant lie.
MR. KAY: [Previous translation continues]... that question to the degree that's requested by the Prosecutor.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't follow that. I've asked the question whether the content of material in this report is accurate, and rather, as he's already said in his examination-in-chief, this passage would seem to be inaccurate.
JUDGE MAY: He can speak of his knowledge of the camp as he's dealing with that.
MR. KAY: The question is in any way participated in combat activities or collecting weapons and ammunition of the whole of -- the entire people within the camp.
JUDGE MAY: It's a matter of weight, isn't it? He deals with the people he knows.
MR. NICE:
Q. Remind us again, how many hundreds or more people were there in 18363 this camp when you first went to Batkovic?
A. There were close to 2.000.
MR. NICE: The second page of the report, please, Usher. About a third of the way down.
Q. The passage that was put to you in part by the accused, it was suggested to the newspaper reporter that at Batkovic, "Prisoners get the same army rations three times a day as the Serb soldiers and military police who guard them." And then the second sentence is: "There is no obvious rancor between prisoners and Serbs and the International Red Cross visits every week."
Was it true as reported, that you were getting army rations the same as the Serb soldiers and military police?
A. Beans, the same beans. Now, whether they ate these beans, I don't know.
Q. Very well.
A. Had it been sauerkraut, that might have been better.
Q. It is suggested further down the page that most men were talkative to the reporter. When reporters came to the camp, so far as you were aware -- when reporters came to the camp, were you allowed to talk to them?
A. No, we were hidden away, the ten of us.
Q. When you came back, did you discover one way or another whether the other prisoners were allowed to speak freely to the reporters or not or don't you know? Were they allowed to speak freely to the reporters? Do you know? 18364
A. I don't know about the others. I know for my -- I can speak for myself.
Q. And then just two more passages from this report. Immediately following on the same page, or one paragraph dividing, then this passage, the deputy commander or commandant, Mlado Zastavnik, was said to have "... contradicted Savic, saying that 85 per cent of the camp's inmates were harmless."
Did you know the man Mlado Zastavnik?
A. From the camp, yes. I didn't know him before that.
Q. Then if we turn over the page to the last entry I'd like you to comment on. The newspaper report includes this passage, Mr. Gusalic, that "Zastavnik said we can't leave them outside because Muslims or Croats would be shot by Serb extremists if they were left in the streets of the town."
Were you aware one way or another of your being kept prisoner to save you from extremists of that kind, Serb extremists in the town?
A. They wouldn't have beaten us.
Q. Very well. And then two other questions and I'm done. You were asked about blockading of the town, and I think of the hospital. When you were first in the hospital, were there any Serbs there being treated?
A. Well, there were. There were Serbs and Muslims.
Q. Was there any question of Serbs being barred by roadblocks or otherwise from getting to the hospital for treatment?
A. [No interpretation] 18365
Q. My last question about your state of memory. You've explained to the Judges that in fact of these events you have a good and strong memory. Do you suffer -- you told us something of your suffering. Do you suffer in the night from recollection of these events from time to time?
A. Nights are difficult. That's true. That's normal. But -- and of course I remember everything very well. They haven't managed to do away with my memory yet.
Q. Thank you.
MR. NICE: That's all I ask of this witness.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.
[The witness withdrew]
JUDGE MAY: While the witness is leaving, we'll deal with the exhibits. Let me return that to the registry.
We will consider 114, which the rapporteur's report.
MR. NICE: Can I add one point which I understated? Although produced as Rule 68, the accused had only had two pages. He had on an earlier occasion been provided with the full report, it being then intended and may be still intended that it should be an exhibit in the case, but that decision has yet to be made.
JUDGE MAY: We've read it. We bear in mind what you say about it but it seems to be right to admit it. Exhibit D114. We will do that. You asked about the witness statement.
[Trial Chamber confers] 18366
JUDGE MAY: We don't need that. Thank you. One other matter. I take it the witness is being collected.
MR. NICE: He is a witness with protection, and we will have to arrange --
JUDGE MAY: Right. Well, before we do, procedural matters. If on Thursday we've got the hearing, the videolink, tomorrow we should deal with the procedural matters, it seems. We're not sitting on Friday, of course.
MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. There are -- it did seem sensible to me that perhaps tomorrow, after this next witness, might be a convenient time to raise procedural issues.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. NICE: That will -- tomorrow is Wednesday, isn't it? That will leave the balance of tomorrow and the balance of Thursday for the fourth witness for the week, assuming there is some time. Mr. Groome reminds me that that witness who has yet to travel -- is travelling now is on his third trip here because of the --
JUDGE MAY: We must try and get through him.
MR. NICE: Must try and get through him. The next witness is comparatively short.
JUDGE MAY: The next witness is fairly short. The procedural matters can be dealt with fairly shortly, I hope. No more than one session.
MR. NICE: Certainly. It's a question I think of outlining our concerns and our request to the Court and possibly giving notification of 18367 applications that we'll make so that we can tidy things up a little bit.
JUDGE MAY: There is that aspect of it. Of course no one is to be hurried. There is also the 92 bis witnesses, which will take a bit of time, but I would hope we can deal with it in one session. But what we'll aim to do then is to deal with that after this witness.
MR. NICE: Can we make arrangements for this witness to come in.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May?
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to raise two procedural matters as well.
JUDGE MAY: Well, it may be convenient if you would do that tomorrow. We've got this witness coming in. We'll set aside some time tomorrow, as I've said, to deal with procedural matters. It may be convenient to deal with them together then.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would be concerned, of course, if there was anything in the procedural problems of the accused that would deal with Thursday's hearing, but I assume from the observations he made yesterday that he is as anxious as we are that Thursday's witness can be heard and dealt with.
JUDGE MAY: Whatever happens, Thursday's witness will be heard, provided that the arrangements can be made.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak 18368 BLANK PAGE 18369 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
WITNESS: WITNESS B-071
[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Nice:
Q. Will you look, please, at this piece of paper. Tell us, please, just yes or no, is that your correct name and your correct date of birth? Did you hear me? Is that your correct name and correct date of birth? Just answer yes or no.
A. Yes.
MR. NICE: Could that piece of paper be exhibited, the witness to be known as B-071. There will be limited number of --
JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's Prosecutor's Exhibit 415 under seal, confidential.
MR. NICE: May the remaining exhibits, therefore, be given a number. I forecast it might be Exhibit 416, but --
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 416.
MR. NICE: Some of those have redacted versions for display, as appropriate.
Q. B-071, are you a Croat by ethnicity, born in Jajce in Bosnia-Herzegovina, doing mandatory military service, working in construction thereafter, someone who was never politically active?
A. Yes. 18370
Q. Did you join the Territorial Defence, and did you work as a courier --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and perform reconnaissance missions?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. At that time was the Territorial Defence for which you were serving functioning as a protection unit in the area where it was?
A. It wasn't a protection unit. It was TO defence. It acted in defence of the village.
Q. Thank you. In March of 1992, was there distribution of Territorial Defence weapons to local Croats and did you receive a pistol at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 23rd of May of 1992, were you sent to Bijelajci in the area of Mrkonjic Grad?
A. Yes.
MR. NICE: It may be that the Chamber would now be assisted by a map. So this is part of 336, to be 336B/71A, as I understand. May it be placed on the overhead projector.
Q. Just have a look at this map, if you would be so good. You're familiar with maps, B-071?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell us, please, if we can find Mrkonjic Grad on this map, please. Can you point it out to us, please. It is the wrong map.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. 18371
MR. NICE:
Q. Better have this map instead, please. My error. Very well. Thank you very much.
We can see at the bottom of this map, circled by you with a cross, we can see Mrkonjic Grad, and is that the area to which you were sent in May of 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you taken to the Ministry of Interior building in Mrkonjic Grad and questioned?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you taken after questioning?
A. They took me back again, and from there to Manjaca.
Q. Who was stationed at Manjaca?
A. The army of Republika Srpska.
Q. How long were you kept there?
A. For a couple of months.
Q. Now, before we get to Manjaca, paragraph 6, the barracks at Mrkonjic Grad were called what?
A. Kula.
Q. How long were you kept there before being sent on to Manjaca?
A. I was there between seven and ten days.
Q. While there, what happened to you? Were you questioned?
A. Yes.
Q. As well as being questioned, were you treated in any inappropriate way? 18372
A. There was some mistreatment and beating.
Q. How bad was the beating and with what were you beaten?
A. They beat us with batons and cables, telephone cables or electricity cables.
Q. Were you injured as a result or not?
A. Yes, I was. I still feel it when there's a change of weather.
Q. Very well. Apart from you, what other people were detained in the Kula barracks? Croats? Any other ethnicity? What?
A. There were Croats and Muslims or Bosniaks.
Q. From which towns, villages, or areas did those other detainees come?
A. There was Jajce, Gruske Dolan, Majdan, Jezerov.
Q. After the days you spent at Kula and again before getting to Manjaca prison, did you go first to Bijelajci?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you detained there, this being, I think, a former dairy farm? Where were you detained there?
A. They held us there in a room where the livestock was kept. Stables, sheds.
Q. How many detainees were there there?
A. Some 30-odd.
Q. Was the area securely fenced?
A. Yes. There was quite a large fence of between two and a half and three metres in height.
Q. By what force were you guarded? 18373
A. The military police.
Q. The military police from where?
A. From the Banja Luka Corps.
Q. Were you obliged when there to do any work?
A. Yes.
Q. What sort of work?
A. For example, we went to the frontline. We dug trenches. We carried their dead and wounded.
Q. Under the guard of whom?
A. The military police.
Q. The military police that you describe, what insignia or uniforms did they have?
A. They wore camouflage uniforms and the insignia of the army of Republika Srpska, and some had JNA patches written in Cyrillic.
Q. Did you notice anything about the colour of their belts or the colour of the belts in any event of some of them?
A. White belts.
Q. And did the VRS soldiers have particular flags on their caps?
A. They had the tricolour flag.
Q. While working on the frontline, were you or any of the other detainees injured or possibly, even worse, killed?
A. There were some dead and wounded.
Q. And was it following this period of time that you moved to the Manjaca camp?
A. Yes. 18374
Q. Could you put a month in the year of 1992 when you moved to Manjaca?
A. It was sometime in mid-June or July.
Q. On transfer, by what national, by what ethnic and by what geographical group were you taken to Manjaca?
A. I was taken there by the military police of the Banja Luka or Krajina Corps, and they were Serbs by ethnicity.
Q. In Manjaca, were there two groups of prisoners dealt with in different ways, the one of which you were a part being kept separate and having no duties at the frontline?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Thank you. Did other prisoners -- were other prisoners kept separately in a barn, Manjaca also having been a farm before the war?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the prisoners from that barn in the exercise yard, and if so, what did you notice about their appearance and condition?
A. They appeared to have been beaten up. They didn't have enough food. They were dirty.
Q. And as they walked in the exercise yard, what did they have to do with their hands?
A. They held them above their heads, behind their heads.
Q. In your time at Manjaca, did you hear noises indicating what was happening to other prisoners?
A. Yes. One could hear shouting and -- as they yelled at the prisoners, how they threatened to kill them. 18375
Q. Was there a particular cell you had to clean from time to time? If so, what did you notice of what was in it on its walls and floor?
A. Yes. I noticed quite a lot of blood.
Q. How many times did you have to clean the cell?
A. Well, let's say twice a day.
Q. Over what period of time?
A. Well, let's say at noon and in the evening.
Q. Yes, but for how many weeks or months?
A. For about a month.
Q. Was there always blood there, fresh blood, or was it something that only happened from time to time?
A. Whenever I cleaned that room, there was blood in it.
Q. Who -- which force was in charge of Manjaca prison?
A. I only remember the nickname Spaga.
Q. That's the individual. What force, what type of soldier or policeman was in charge of the camp as you could understand it?
A. The military police. That same force from Krajina.
Q. Were you moved from Manjaca to another camp, the Prnjavor camp called Stari Mlin in Vijaka?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you move there?
A. Sometime in July.
Q. Did you go there direct or did you go there via another town?
A. I was first in Banja Luka in the Mali Logor, and then from there they transferred me to Prnjavor. 18376
Q. What did you say about your own ethnicity in order to protect yourself?
A. I said that I was the child of a mixed marriage, that I was half Croat, half Serb.
Q. And was indeed that a position you were to take for some considerable period of time in order to protect yourself, as we shall see from the rest of your account?
A. Yes.
Q. At Prnjavor in the Stari Mlin camp, who was in charge? What group?
A. The Wolves of Veljko Milankovic.
Q. How many men constituting these Wolves were there?
A. There may have been about 300 of them that I saw in the compound of that camp.
Q. You've said that they were described as the Wolves of Veljko Milankovic, but in fact were they also known as the Wolves of some other name, perhaps a shorter name?
A. I don't remember.
Q. If you do, come back to it, or I may in due course ask you about it if it's covered in your statement.
The -- this camp, then, was a camp of armed men. Was it a detention camp or were you simply being kept there in some way to work with the soldiers, with a measure of freedom?
A. There was a room where I had to work. It wasn't a real camp with prisoners. 18377
Q. Were you the only person there in your capacity or were there others in a similar capacity to yourself?
A. There were others too.
Q. Did you receive any type of uniform?
A. No.
Q. So how were you dressed?
A. I had the SMB uniform without any insignia, without shoelaces, without a belt.
Q. What sort of tasks did you perform while at this Stari Mlin camp?
A. I cut wood for the soldiers, I cleaned the compound and so on.
Q. And did you do other domestic chores; making coffee, washing dishes, things of that sort?
A. No, I didn't do that.
Q. Did you ever have to travel with any part of the armed Wolves?
A. Yes.
Q. How far would you go with them?
A. For instance, from Prnjavor to Vlasenica. I don't know what the distance is.
Q. And what would be the purpose of your travelling with them when they made that journey?
A. I carried food for them. Sometimes I would dig trenches or dugouts.
Q. And which part of the Wolves was it that were travelling on this occasion? Was it just a general part of them or was it a special group or platoon that was travelling? 18378
A. They were some kind of an Intervention Platoon.
Q. Having what particular functions?
A. To hold the frontline and to prevent any breakthrough in the line being made by Bosniaks or Croats.
Q. The Wolves Intervention Platoon acting in this way, did it act in combination with another group that you got to know of, coming from Derventa?
A. There was a group called Vitezovi, or the Knights.
Q. They worked together with the Wolves, did they?
A. Yes.
Q. The patch displayed on the screen in front of you - it appears, I hope - do you recognise it?
A. I would see this patch.
Q. That being the patch of which group?
A. The Wolves.
Q. Exhibit 349, tab 9. In 1993 and possibly between 1993 and into 1994, were you sufficiently established in your position as a person working for the Wolves that you were able to apply for a transfer to Derventa?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a VRS military barracks there, Zdravko Pcelar?
A. Yes.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'll sort out the maps tomorrow so I don't waste any time by producing the wrong one again. And I'll deal with them comprehensively tomorrow. 18379
Q. Why did you want to go to Derventa?
A. Well, actually, to get acquainted with the enemy army and to see the crimes they were committing and things like that.
Q. This was your purpose in going there, was it?
A. Yes.
Q. This was your stated purpose to the superiors; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything you knew about the distribution of Croats in the area of Derventa?
A. No.
Q. When you got to Zdravko Pcelar, who was the barracks commander?
A. I remember Major Slavko Lisica.
Q. What was the scope of his command? What was included in his command?
A. The entire Derventa Brigade, the 327th, all of the units of the army of Republika Srpska in Derventa.
Q. That man, do you know what position he holds now, Slavko Lisica?
A. Just now I don't know.
Q. While at this barracks, did you see visits made by senior military figures?
A. Yes.
Q. Name those who you saw visit, please.
A. I saw Talic, for instance. There were other officers, but I can't remember. Bosko Pajovic, a lieutenant colonel.
Q. Any others at the level of Talic that you can remember? 18380 BLANK PAGE 18381
A. There were some, but I don't remember.
Q. We'll come back to that again later, probably tomorrow. In these barracks, did you continue in the tasks of one kind or another for the soldiers?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that include domestic tasks involving food and washing dishes and matters of that sort?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you allowed to move out of the barracks into the area of the town of Derventa itself?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in a position to leave Derventa altogether or not?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any identification or travel papers?
A. No.
Q. Were there checkpoints around Derventa where you would have had to produce such papers had you wished to escape altogether?
A. Yes. For example, you'd be stopped by the military police. You had to say where you worked, and if they were suspicious, you would be taken back to the barracks.
Q. How did you regard yourself then? And I'll try and let you put it in your own words: How did you regard yourself when at this camp in terms of either a free person working for an army or the other extreme, somebody who was completely a detainee? How did you regard yourself?
A. I regarded myself as a free person. I was able to move around. I 18382 was able to get food regularly and all the rest of it.
Q. Were you in any sense a volunteer for what you were doing or were you obliged to be doing what you were doing?
A. Well, let's say that I was obliged to. That was the only way I could survive.
MR. NICE: Paragraph 11.
JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient time. Witness B-071, we're going to adjourn now until tomorrow morning. Could you remember in this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody until your evidence is over about it, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.