Milosevic Transcript 2003-04-07

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Monday, 7 April 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1003

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we begin, the Prosecution will be tendering a binder with eight exhibits. If it would be possible to get a number for that exhibit now.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. The first exhibit, tab 1, will be P420 --

JUDGE MAY: We've been -- the practice we've been following is simply to give one exhibit number and then we give the tabs thereafter.

THE REGISTRAR: Okay.

JUDGE MAY: So if we have 420 for the bundle and then the various tabs in it will follow. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: And if I could begin by asking the witness be shown ¹⁸⁶⁰¹ this sheet of paper.

Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Witness B-1003, I'd ask you to take a look at the sheet of paper before you and I'd ask is that your name and date of birth on that sheet of paper?

A. Yes.

Q. Throughout the course of this morning you will be referred to as B-1003 to protect your identification.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the pseudonym sheet be tendered into evidence under seal. It is not part of the binder so would not be in with the binder 420.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. It can be a separate number.

THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet is marked P421.

MR. GROOME: B-1003, we are in open session at the moment. I would ask you for the extent that you can without identifying yourself, would you briefly summarise your educational and professional background.

A. I graduated from a police course, a police training course, and before the war I worked as a member of the Ministry of the Interior.

Q. And would it be fair to say that your primary occupation has been working for the Ministry of Interior?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992. Did there come a time when you overheard a conversation on an official police radio?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe the circumstances of you hearing that ¹⁸⁶⁰² conversation?

A. It was a conversation between two of my colleagues who were Serb by ethnicity, and they were talking during the time that there was a police station in a car and it was switched on so that all the employees of the Ministry of the Interior who could reach that channel were able to hear that same conversation.

Q. Can you summarise for the Court what you recall about that conversation?

A. The whole course of the conversation referred to the situation in the Republic of Croatia and the relationships that prevailed at the time, that is to say, the Serb forces in Croatia, how they were moving ahead with respect to the Croatian ones and how they cleared up, for example, Croatian defence, and that the Croatian forces were doing very badly and fared very badly and the same thing could be expected to happen in Bosnia between the Muslims and the Croats.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask we go into private session for a few questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁰³ Pages 18603-18607 - redacted - private session

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1003, as you were entering Bijeljina on this occasion, can you describe what you observed about any military surrounding Bijeljina?

A. Yes, I can. On that section of the road, I was stopped and there were a large number of military men, soldiers, reservists, so that they had surrounded Bijeljina. They were stationed all around Bijeljina with heavy weapons, heavy artillery, and so on. They were armed extensively.

Q. Were these official JNA troops?

A. No. No, they weren't. Actually, I couldn't know because some people were wearing military uniforms, JNA uniforms, and others were in civilian clothing.

Q. Can you describe the military equipment that you saw in the outskirts of Bijeljina?

A. Yes, I can. Well, of course they had all the necessary military equipment and materiel which had previously belonged to the army of Yugoslavia, all that kind of weaponry. And it had all come from the JNA.

Q. Did you see any artillery pieces?

A. Yes. There were mortars, mortar nests with mortars, and I saw the occasional cannon, gun. Whether it was a Howitzer or whatever, a smaller gun, cannon, I can't really say which kind because I'm not that familiar with them.

Q. The cannon and the mortars, were you able to see in which direction they were aimed? ¹⁸⁶⁰⁹

A. Yes, I could. They were all aimed at Bijeljina, in the direction of Bijeljina.

Q. Can you describe your observations when you first entered the town, after you entered it?

A. Yes, I can. When I entered Bijeljina, while I was driving along the road towards the police station, there were many military troops there belonging to different kinds of armed forces. I wasn't able to establish their identity at that time. Some people wore the caps, pointed caps. Some were wearing camouflage uniforms or half, half, half uniform, half civilian clothing. Others were in civilian clothing in that part as I approached Bijeljina.

Q. Did you report for work when you returned to Bijeljina?

A. Yes. I had to report to work.

Q. And what is your best recollection of the date that you entered Bijeljina?

A. 1st of April.

Q. Now, upon returning, were police officers required to sign a document that prior to this they had not been required to sign?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that document?

A. It was a document pledging loyalty to the Serb authorities or you signed to say that you were going to work for the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.

Q. Did there come a time when non-Serbs were dismissed from certain posts within the police department? ¹⁸⁶¹⁰

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe?

A. After that, after the signing of these documents, later on the situation became even worse. It became even more difficult to work, and there were great problems between the Muslims and the Serbs so that people were dismissed from their jobs. They would also leave of their own free will. And at the beginning of the conflict itself in Bijeljina, if you didn't report to work in the first one, two, or three days, you were automatically dismissed.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that Prosecution Exhibit P420, tab 1, be placed on the ELMO. I'm sorry. Your Honour, just before we begin working with this exhibit, this is an exhibit drawn -- a basic map drawn by another witness. It's a photocopy of that, and that was Prosecution Exhibit 411, tab 8. This particular witness has drawn numbers on that map to indicate certain locations he will be testifying about here today, but the map is not his, it's another witness, and that was -- B-1738 is the witness who is the author of this map.

Q. B-1003, did there come a time when you became aware that that was large number of civilian corpses on the streets of Bijeljina?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. We are now in public session. Can I ask you to describe to the extent possible what you knew about these corpses?

A. What I can say is that they were the corpses of persons who had been killed from firearms, and their ages ranged from 10 to 70 years. And those people were predominantly or, rather, -- none of them were armed. ¹⁸⁶¹¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁶¹² They were all unarmed, wearing civilian clothing.

Q. The numbers that are on the map that is on the overhead projector, do those numbers indicate the approximate locations of those civilians?

A. Yes, they do. Those are the locations roughly where the bodies were found.

Q. Approximately how many bodies altogether did you become aware of?

A. Approximately, as far as I know, 48 bodies. There were more though.

Q. Where were most -- where were those -- the 48 bodies, where were they stored?

A. All the persons collected up from these locations were placed in the hospital compound in Bijeljina by the mortuary in the compound.

Q. And you said that you believed there were more. Can you please describe what you meant?

A. There were quite a few bodies that were not brought to the hospital compound because their family members would take over the bodies and bury them in the Bijeljina Muslim cemetery without having other people know or having them brought into hospital.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 420, tab 2. It is on the computer screen. I'd ask that the witness's screen be pushed to "off". I believe that's what will allow him to see it. I would draw the Chamber's attention to photograph D.

Q. Sir, is there a photograph displayed before you?

A. Yes. ¹⁸⁶¹³

Q. Do you recognise what that -- what is the location depicted in that photograph?

A. I think that is one of the side entrances to the hospital which is where the mortuary is located.

Q. And do you recognise the uniforms of the people depicted in that photograph?

A. Yes, I do. They are members of the Serb forces. And the person up in front I think belonged to Arkan's forces.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I would ask that the usher -- if we could leave that map on the overhead, but there's no need to stand there next to it. I would ask that we now go into private session for a few questions.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶¹⁴ Pages 18614-18626 - redacted - private session

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, during this time period, who, if anybody, gained control over the grounds of the hospital in Bijeljina?

A. The hospital was held by the Serbian Volunteer Guards and Serbian paramilitary units.

Q. Do you recall the identity of those paramilitary units?

A. There were different ones. There was the Serbian Volunteer Guards first, then the White Eagles, then members of the new Serbian guards who during the conflicts joined Arkan's forces, and other paramilitary groups ¹⁸⁶²⁸ who I'm not able to name. Anyway, they were stationed together with the others near the hospital.

Q. During early April, did a shipment of police equipment arrive from Serbia?

A. Yes. The shipment arrived consisting mostly of berets and the badges that were attached to the berets.

Q. And when is your best recollection with respect to when these berets and badges arrived from Serbia?

A. The first shipment arrived, as far as I can remember, the second evening after the conflict erupted.

Q. And was there an instruction given to police officers with respect to the wearing of these berets?

A. Yes. It was mandatory to wear berets for personal security.

Q. Are you or were you familiar at that time with the appearance of berets worn by the Serbian Ministry of Interior police?

A. Yes. They were identical berets worn by the members of the MUP of Serbia.

Q. Did there come a time when you were -- became aware that the police chief of Bijeljina was making regular trips to Belgrade?

A. Yes, I was aware of that.

Q. What was the name of that police chief?

A. Predrag Jesuric.

MR. GROOME: I'd like to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 420, tab 4.

Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the last page of that document and ¹⁸⁶²⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁶³⁰ ask you do you recognise the seal that's contained on it?

A. Yes, it is the seal of the public security station signed by Predrag Jesuric, chief of the station.

Q. I'm going to ask you to now look at the first page of the document. I'm going to ask you to read the third paragraph of that document.

A. The public security station in Bijeljina, starting with the 1st of April, 1992. Yes?

Q. Yes.

JUDGE KWON: Witness, do you have the document in your language?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, he does.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Do I have to read it aloud or for myself?

MR. GROOME:

Q. Let me ask you just a few questions from that document. Based on your personal knowledge, is paragraph 3 of this document, is it an accurate reflection of the situation as you observed it in Bijeljina at that time?

A. No.

Q. Can you please correct what is incorrect in this document?

A. From the very beginning of the conflict, that is, on the 1st of April, all that is true is that there was an interruption in the reporting by the public security station to the legal bodies of MUP in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so that reporting went only to the bodies of Republika Srpska. ¹⁸⁶³¹

Q. I want to draw your attention to the paragraph above this one, and the first sentence of that paragraph, and I'll read from the English translation. I'd ask to you look at the original document and I'm ask you a question regarding it. "Since the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina began work on the 1st of April, 1992, police station chief, Predrag Jesuric, and federal SUP secretary of interior coordinator, Petar Mihajlovic, who visited the police station on several occasions during this period have been trying to come in telephone contact with the seat of ministry and send reports but to no avail." My question to you is: Were you aware that members of the federal Ministry of interior were present in Bijeljina during the first week of April of 1992?

A. Yes, I know that. An inspector came from the federal SUP, federal Ministry of the Interior.

Q. At the time that that federal inspector came to Bijeljina, were you aware that his title or his position was that of coordinator?

A. No. No, I was not aware of that, because the federal SUP had no competency over public security stations. And if it did have any assignment for that particular police station, then the Federal Secretariat would have to go through the republic secretariat.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, what time would the Chamber like to take the morning break?

JUDGE MAY: Well, we started late. Let me just confer.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: I'm making inquiries to see if we can sit until 2.00 ¹⁸⁶³² this afternoon to make up some lost time. Go on for another ten minutes and we'll break.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Witness B-1003, I'd like to draw your attention to the second paragraph on the second page. I will read from the English translation of that. I'd ask you to read along in the original and I would then ask you a question. The English translation reads: The security situation in Bijeljina was destabilised at about," and the exact time is illegible, "hours on the evening of the 31st of March, 1992, when Muslim extremists put up roadblocks in the centre of town. During the night and the following day, the Territorial Defence, the Serbian National Guard and the Serbian Volunteers Guard began to lift the blockade of the town under the guidance of the Crisis Staff of Bijeljina municipality." Sir, my question to you is: This particular paragraph seems to suggest that there was an immediate response by the Serbian Volunteer Guard and the Serbian National Guard to the placement of roadblocks in the town of Bijeljina. To your knowledge, did the Serbian Volunteer Guard arrive the same night when -- as when trouble began over the roadblocks in Bijeljina?

A. As far as I know, they arrived the following day, the next day when the conflicts broke out, the incidents that took place in Bijeljina. But on the first evening, as far as I know, there weren't any special conflicts or clashes. It was just the beginning. So there was just a brief period of sporadic shooting. And then, as far as I know, at two locations, barricades were set up by the Muslim side, by the Muslim ¹⁸⁶³³ people, but they were barricades made up of one or two vehicles that made a sort of roadblock. They blocked the road. They weren't actually proper barricades in the defence sense.

Q. The last phrase of this paragraph refers to the Crisis Staff of Bijeljina municipality. On the 1st of April were you aware that such an organisation existed?

A. Yes, the Crisis Staff did exist the whole time, and it organised everything that was going on. Everything went via the Crisis Staff, and it was located in Dvorovi at the beginning of the conflict and was then transferred to Bijeljina.

MR. GROOME: I'd now ask that we go into private session for the next portion of testimony.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶³⁴ Page 18634 - redacted - private session

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, could I ask you to describe after the 1st of April, what was the relationship between Arkan's men and the local police in Bijeljina?

A. After the 1st of April, Arkan's men would enter where they were permitted to and where they weren't. They would enter the police station premises and offices. They would take the police cars without first asking. They would take documents and the weapons that had already been seized from the Muslim people, sidearms, pistols, light weapons. Anything that was nice and interesting, they would confiscate it, take it, and then they would make their own -- draw up their own licenses to carry those guns and weapons. And traffic permits, driver's licences, ID cards and everything. They could do whatever they liked.

Q. Did members of Arkan's unit accompany ordinary police patrols in Bijeljina? ¹⁸⁶³⁷

A. As far as I know, in the first week after the conflict had broken out, there would always be a -- the policemen would always be escorted by one of Arkan's men.

Q. Were police units able to patrol without the presence of Arkan's -- one of Arkan's men in the police vehicle?

A. No. No, they weren't.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if that's a convenient place to break.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes. Witness B-1003, don't speak to anybody, please, about your evidence until it's completed, and that includes members of the Prosecution team.

--- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1003, we broke at the portion of your testimony where you were describing Arkan's men being involved in patrols. Did you yourself personally see Arkan present in the town of Bijeljina during this time period?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Was one of these occasions when Ms. Plavsic -- Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Abdic were also present in town?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Can you please describe the circumstances of you seeing Arkan on this occasion? ¹⁸⁶³⁸

A. The first time I saw Arkan was close to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence.

Q. Sir, we are in public session now. The first occasion, do we need to be in private session?

A. No.

Q. Please continue.

A. The first time I saw him was not far from the Territorial Defence headquarters, and he moved around in a vehicle. And with him in the car was Mr. Zecevic. And the second time I saw him was when a delegation arrived from Sarajevo, Mrs. Plavsic, in fact, and Mr. Fikret Abdic, and that was in front of the municipality building.

Q. The first occasion that you saw him, what was the name, the first name, of Mr. Zecevic?

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, please?

MR. GROOME:

Q. Please repeat. Please repeat his first name.

A. Ferid. Ferid Zecevic.

Q. And what was his occupation, if you know?

A. He was a professor at the secondary school in Bijeljina, and he also had a catering establishment in Bijeljina, it's on Racanska Cesta street.

Q. And do you know if he is alive today?

A. No. What happened to him was that I think in July, he was killed. I think he was killed in July.

Q. July of what year? ¹⁸⁶³⁹

A. 2002.

Q. The transcript reports you as saying that he died last year, 2002. Is that your testimony?

A. 1992. I apologise. 1992. 1992.

Q. Now, the second time you saw Arkan you described it as being during the course of this delegation which arrived in Bijeljina. My question for you is: Who provided the security for that event in Bijeljina? Was it the Bijeljina police?

A. No, no. The police didn't provide the security. On that occasion, there were Arkan's men deployed in the municipality building and around it, and they provided the security for the municipality. The police did not take part in escorting the vehicle or providing security for those individuals.

Q. Now, drawing your attention to the latter part of April and continuing throughout the summer of 1992, was it possible for people to leave Bijeljina?

A. It was possible to leave Bijeljina, but only if you had authorisation or, rather, permit from the Crisis Staff. You could leave Bijeljina then and go off in any direction.

Q. And when you say "authorisation from the Crisis Staff," was this in the form of a document?

A. Yes. You had to get -- if you wanted to leave Bijeljina or the SAO Semberija or Majevica area, you had to table a request to the Crisis Staff and then you would be issued a written piece of paper authorising you to leave the area of Krajina. ¹⁸⁶⁴⁰

Q. Were all ethnicities or people of all ethnicities able to attain this document with equal ease?

A. No, it wasn't easy. You had to send in a request, and you might get it or not, especially members of the Muslim population and Croatian ethnicity. It was more difficult for them to obtain a permit.

Q. If somebody was intending to leave without having acquired this documentation, where would they be stopped or checked to see that they -- whether they had the necessary paperwork to leave?

A. At all the border crossings, the border with the Republic of Serbia. That's where the checkpoints were set up or border crossings. And in the other areas, towards other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were also checkpoints, police checkpoints to control the comings and goings or, rather, the persons wishing to leave the area.

Q. During your time in Bijeljina after the beginning of April 1992, did you form an impression regarding who it was that was controlling or issuing directives to the Ministry of Interior of Bijeljina?

A. As far as I know, it was the ministry or, rather, the Bijeljina police station was subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska so that they would come under that ministry, whereas everything -- all links and ties with the ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina were severed, and they cooperated with the people from the federal SUP, to the best of my knowledge.

Q. And what role, if any, did Arkan play in directing the activities of the local police?

A. As far as I know, Arkan was linked from the very beginning of the ¹⁸⁶⁴¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁶⁴² conflict in Bijeljina with the Crisis Staff, so that it was the Crisis Staff, together with Arkan, which gave out instructions to the police as to how to conduct its work and what the police should do and should not do.

Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name of Mauzer?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. How -- how do you know him, and what was his role in the events of Bijeljina?

A. As far as I know, he was the commander of that Crisis Staff generally speaking. Everything that was going on went via him in Bijeljina and the surrounding areas, the Semberija region, in fact.

Q. In early May, did you have an opportunity to go to the Brcko region?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you please describe for the Chamber your observations regarding Brcko?

A. The second day after the conflict had broken out in Brcko, we were sent there by the police station of Bijeljina to provide security for certain buildings and premises in Brcko, to take control of them, but we didn't know at all that there were major conflicts going on in the area. So we went to Brcko to take up our positions securing the buildings, that is to say, the post office, the municipality building, the department store, other shops, so that when we arrived, everything was already empty and there was nothing to secure.

On one occasion, they tried to transfer us to the front line, ¹⁸⁶⁴³ but -- that is to say that the police station of Brcko asked that we be transferred to the front line. But the commander in Bijeljina refused and put us up at the Brcko hotel. So we just provided security for some small buildings.

Q. While you were in Brcko, were you able to identify men from any groups that you were -- that were known to you?

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, according to the summary I have with me, I notice that the Prosecution is asking some private session for this. If you're okay, it's --

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the witness has been -- has told us that this particular part of his testimony is okay. I appreciate that the Chamber's caution, reminder. I'll just confirm with the witness.

JUDGE KWON: Okay.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Witness B-1003, is it okay for you to testify about this in open session, publicly?

A. Yes, it is. It's okay. Would you repeat your question, please, the last question?

Q. Yes. While you were in Brcko, were you able to identify any groups of men that were present in Brcko?

A. When I went to Brcko from Bijeljina, or, rather, a regular police force was sent from the Bijeljina police station to Brcko. There were some reservists of the Territorial Defence, and there were a lot of paramilitaries which accompanied those same forces. And in the town of Brcko itself, groups of Arkan's men were already there. ¹⁸⁶⁴⁴

Q. In addition to Arkan's men, were you able to identify any other groups that these men belonged to?

A. Well, there were members of the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi, and members of the territorial composition, members of the reserve force of the army, army reservists. I can't really say who belonged to what, who belonged to the army and who didn't, because as I say, there were people in civilian clothes or half-half, half civilian, half uniforms. Some people with insignia and patches and so on, others without. The members of the White Eagles had their badges, so I was able to recognise them as I was able to recognise members of Arkan's men.

Q. I want to draw your attention now to -- I'm going to ask you to take a look at a photograph in front of you, and I would ask that we go into private session for this particular photograph.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁴⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1003, during the period after beginning of April 1992, did you become aware that lists were being used by the police to check for, or to identify, particular Muslims in the town?

A. Yes. Every police checkpoint at the exits from SAO Semberija had this list of Muslims who needed to be taken into custody or arrested.

Q. Did you yourself have an opportunity to see this list on at least one occasion?

A. Yes, I did have one occasion to see that list.

Q. Can you please describe what you recall about the names on that list?

A. The list was of Muslims, people of Muslim ethnicity, who were ¹⁸⁶⁴⁶ mostly well-off, who had businesses of their own or who had companies of their own of some significance in town.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 420, tab 6. I'm going to ask that the original or a photocopy made from the original be shown to the witness.

Q. B-1003, I'm going to ask you, in the first paragraph of this document there are a number of villages that are identified. I'd ask you to read those villages to us and then tell us, are you familiar with those villages and are they in Bijeljina?

A. Yes. These are villages close to Bijeljina in the direction of Tuzla, Trnova, Glinje, Teocak, and Snijeznica and I am familiar with them.

Q. Now, this document purports to record that the Muslim people -- population of these villages made an expression of loyalty to the new Serb authorities of Bijeljina. My question to you is: To your knowledge is this an event that did actually occur? Did the Muslim population of these villages in fact make an expression of loyalty to the Serb authorities?

A. Yes, those populations made a declaration of loyalty to Republika Srpska. And after making the declaration of loyalty in the same villages, police guards were performed which in agreement with the new Ministry of Interior of the Republic Srpska were formed and they were allowed to operate in those villages.

Q. Was there any violence in those villages as far as you can recall, or as far as you know?

A. At the beginning of the war, no. From these villages, Trnova, ¹⁸⁶⁴⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁶⁴⁸ Glinje, Janjari, Atmacici, due to fear provoked by the Serbian forces around those villages because there was shooting every night around the villages, so that as far as I know, later on all these villages, the inhabitants of all these villages voluntarily moved out in the direction of Teocak.

Q. And when did that occur?

A. I think it was in July 1992.

Q. I'd like to ask you to look at the picture on the screen before you. Do you recognise the location depicted in these two photographs?

A. As far as I am able to see, this is the area where the mosque was across the road from the hospital in Bijeljina.

Q. I now ask -- now there's nothing standing here now. Was that mosque destroyed during the conflict?

A. Yes, as far as I know, that mosque and the others were all destroyed, but not in the conflict, after the conflict.

Q. I'd ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 420 tab 8 on the monitor in front of you. Do you recognise this location and the ruins that are there?

A. Yes. I think this is also a mosque, used to be a mosque, in the village of Atmacici

Q. And prior to the conflict, was this mosque standing?

A. Yes. There were no conflicts in this area at all.

Q. Did you visit this site after the mosque was destroyed?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you able to make observations that indicated to you how the ¹⁸⁶⁴⁹ mosque came to collapse?

A. Yes. The mosque was destroyed with the help of explosives. It was mined and blown up.

Q. Are you familiar with the ferry crossing at Badovinci, connecting Bijeljina to Serbia?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. In the spring and summer of -- or March and April of 1992, can you describe for the Chamber what would have been the border controls, if any, at that location? What would have been the regular border controls?

A. Regular border controls were not there. As far as the Bosnian side is concerned, a new bridge was being built across the Drina River, and before the bridge was built there was a ferry operating transporting passengers across to the other side, whereas from the other side, that is, in the Republic of Serbia, there was a regular police patrol.

Q. On occasion did your duties include stationing yourself on the Bosnian side of the border between Bosnia and Serbia in order to look for suspicious activity?

A. Not there, but at other crossing points, yes.

Q. And at the crossing points that you had occasion to be stationed at between Bosnia and Republic of Serbia, were there border controls on the Serbian side of that border?

A. Yes, there were.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 326 again. It's the photocopy of the map that he's made markings on. ¹⁸⁶⁵⁰

Q. B-1003, I'm going to ask you to conclude your testimony here today simply by pointing to each of the locations on this map starting with A and just going alphabetically and indicate to the Chamber the significance of each of these locations. I'd ask you to call out the letter as you do so the record is clear what you're referring to. And there's a pointer there in front of you.

A. "A", I marked with "A" the place called Popovi. That was where the Crisis Staff was set up prior to the attack on Bijeljina, and all orders came from there.

The letter "B" indicates the area where Arkan's forces were stationed, and it is there that they crossed from Serbia into the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

"C", "C" and "D" are border crossings, the border crossing between Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia where there were regular checkpoints.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... Just would ask you, "G" you've already told us about in private session, so I'd ask you to stop at "F". Please continue.

A. I've already said that "C" and "D" were the regular checkpoints by the regular police of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Serbia and a crossing -- the bridge across the Sava. That was secured by members of the reserve force of the army which used to be the Yugoslav army and the reserve police force.

"E" and "F" are places referred to in this last document, the three villages there.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour. ¹⁸⁶⁵¹

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it is my submission that this excessive use of private session serves only to dramatise the statement of this witness who is giving erroneous explanations in connection with the events in Bijeljina, and there's no --

JUDGE MAY: You begin your cross-examination. The matter of the use of private session is not really a matter for you. It's a matter for the Court which has to determine it. You know the rules. If there are matters which may in any way identify the witness, then he's entitled to a private session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will not mention the name of the witness, nor is it my intention to identify him, but I assume there is no secret, nor is it for a private session to say the fact that he was a policeman in Bijeljina.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, help us with that, will you?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it hasn't specifically been stated. Perhaps the witness would be the best person to ask whether he --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁵²

[redacted]

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1003, if at any time you feel your security or your -- if there are any matters which you would wish to be dealt with in private session, just indicate and we can go back into private session. But obviously we should try and remain in open session as much as we.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. May, that we will be in public session throughout because I have no intention of revealing his identity and as you see, the witness himself has agreed there is no dispute as to the work he did and the position he held, that that is no secret.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] You said on television that you saw a conflict had occurred in Bijeljina. At the time you were on assignment somewhere else; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, do you know how the conflict in Bijeljina broke out?

A. As far as I know, it occurred the day before I was in Bijeljina. ¹⁸⁶⁵³ A conflict occurred between individual groups of Muslim ethnicity and groups of Serb ethnicity.

Q. Very well. There's no dispute over that. But my question is how the conflict actually occurred. Is it true that Green Berets and the forces of the so-called League had blocked Bijeljina and set up barricades in many places in Bijeljina and taken up positions and established firing positions in various places in Bijeljina? Are you aware of that?

A. As far as I know, there were no barricades. If I -- if there were, I would have seen them. I know of one or, rather, two. At the entry to Bijeljina and around Bijeljina, there were barricades held by Serb forces.

Q. Very well. Tell me, as that is your explanation, explain this for me, please: A moment ago and also on page 2, paragraph 4, you say that Bijeljina was surrounded by a water armour, something like that. What do you mean by that?

A. Bijeljina -- around Bijeljina there was a canal.

Q. Come now. The inhabitants of Bijeljina are watching us. Isn't it true that only a small canal goes through Bijeljina called Dasnica? Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that canal passes right by the police station; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that canal has been in existence for decades, anyways, since before you were born; is that right?

A. Correct. ¹⁸⁶⁵⁴

Q. No canal or trench filled with water ever existed, nor is there such a thing around Bijeljina.

A. I'd like you to go and visit and see for yourself.

Q. So there were canals filled with water around Bijeljina? Is that what you're claiming?

A. Yes.

Q. And you say that Bijeljina was surrounded by the JNA. Is that what you're claiming, indeed, or is it an assumption of yours?

A. No. I didn't say that Bijeljina was surrounded by JNA forces but that civilians, paramilitary units that were in the area around Bijeljina, they were armed with JNA weapons. That's what I said.

Q. What do you mean with JNA weapons? You mean with the same kind of weapons that the JNA had?

A. Correct.

Q. And you don't know the source of those weapons, nor are you claiming that they were given them by the JNA?

A. As far as I know, the Yugoslav army had all weapons of Yugoslav manufacture that I could recognise and that I could see, that I had occasion to see close up and which I had learnt about anyway serving in that same army.

Q. Well, there's no dispute over that, but surely all the armies in the territory of the former Yugoslavia had the same weapons?

A. Not all of them.

Q. So you didn't have JNA weapons, you?

A. What do you mean "you"? ¹⁸⁶⁵⁵

Q. I mean, for instance, the Green Berets, the league. Didn't they have the same weapons as the JNA?

A. I apologise, but I was not a member of the Green Berets.

Q. Very well, but do you know, how long did that war in Bijeljina go on for?

A. About six days. Actually, there were clashes actually for the first two days, in fact.

Q. Do you know that after that the situation calmed down and that there were no conflicts afterwards?

A. Yes. The situation in the town of Bijeljina itself was peaceful for about -- about a month later.

Q. Very well. Were you in Bijeljina then? So do you know that at that time when the situation calmed down that those various members of Muslim paramilitary formations that had blocked Bijeljina handed over, surrendered more than 500 long-barrelled weapons? Do you remember that?

A. As far as I know with regard to the surrender of those weapons, as far as I know, those long-barrels that were handed over, I didn't see a single one. The rest were sidearms, pistols that people had with legally obtained licenses.

Q. But pistols are not long barrels. Do you know that the 500 long barrels were also weapons of Yugoslav make?

JUDGE MAY: No. You do not listen. You don't listen to the reply. The reply was he knew nothing about it. What he knew about was pistols and the like which were handed over. Your assumption of the answers is quite wrong. You should listen to the answers and then take ¹⁸⁶⁵⁶ your questions from there rather than just going on as before.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Don't worry. I won't put an incorrect question to this witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's clear some things up so that they should be clear to me, because from what you have been saying here, everything is not quite clear. Will you please explain just one thing before we move on. On page 3 of your statement, you mention Seval Begic. So let's clear that point up, please. You say the hearse belonged to the communal enterprise and its manager was a Muslim, Seval Begic. "Seval came to the police station --"

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

MR. GROOME: We're getting very close to an area that should be in private session. Just to advise Mr. Milosevic of that fact.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁵⁷ Pages 18657-18661 - redacted - private session

¹⁸⁶⁶²

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm going to speak indeterminately and not in the second person singular but I shall just refer to an undetermined person so that we don't have to go back into private session.

You say, Mr. B-1003, that - and let me be unspecific again and express myself in that way - [redacted]

[redacted]

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Now answer me this: How come you were able to collect up 48 bodies when according to --

MR. GROOME: Objection, Your Honour. Can we go into private session for an explanation perhaps? I thought it was clear what were the sensitive parts of the testimony, what were not. ¹⁸⁶⁶³

JUDGE MAY: It's not always very clear, I must say.

MR. GROOME: I apologise.

JUDGE MAY: But if this is a matter which may require a private session, we'll go into it out of an abundance of caution. Private session again, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁶⁴ Page 18664 - redacted - private session

¹⁸⁶⁶⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I hope we've cleared this up, that this does not threaten the disclosure of the witness's identity in any way.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We were talking about that fact that on the streets of Bijeljina, 48 corpses were collected up. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you know that all the official reports and information ¹⁸⁶⁶⁶ which were available at that time and are available now spoke of the fact that 38 persons were killed in total in Bijeljina, of which number 22 were Muslims, 15 were Serbs, and one -- one person was a Croat by ethnicity, that is to say, a Croatian lady. So are you aware of those facts and figures? Is that what is correct and not this figure -- this number of 48?

A. What I know is the other number. I know about that other number. As to your facts and figures, I don't know where you got them from and who drew up those statistics. And if they did, it was -- the statistics must have been compiled by the Serbian side and by the Crisis Staff, and they did so to their advantage.

Q. I have no Crisis Staff statistics but official information which is available in Bijeljina.

Now, let us please go back to the event itself and then we'll move on to discuss these persons.

Is it true and correct that before the conflict there was a blockade of all the vital points in Bijeljina by the Green Berets and Patriotic League or, rather, the Muslim extremists? Is that what happened or not? Just say yes or no and we can move on.

A. No.

Q. So you claim that no barricades were erected and that there was no organised activity on the part of the Muslim extremists to block Bijeljina at all? Is that what you're saying?

A. I said as far as I know, to the best of my knowledge. I know about two. One was a truck in one place, and in another place there was a ¹⁸⁶⁶⁷ truck and a car. But any greater resistance or barricades I did not know about. I didn't see them.

Q. Right. You did not know about them. Now, take a look at this diagram which shows precisely the barricades or, rather, the location in schematic form at Redzep's house which is where you say most of the people were killed. So take a look at this diagram. I have a copy, and could this be placed on the overhead projector and then we'll be able to comment on it together?

JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us where it comes from, Mr. Milosevic, from what it is.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a sketch, a diagram drawn up by eyewitnesses in Bijeljina, and the witness can either affirm or refute it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you have the diagram of the crossroads, the main street. Across the road is the hospital yard. Could this be shown on the overhead, please.

We see Redzep's house. Now, what has been drawn in as being buildings and streets and the distribution of buildings and streets, is that correct, Mr. B-1003? Does it correspond to the truth?

A. No, the order of the houses is not the right one. This barricade wasn't here.

Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you what did you say about the barricade?

A. This barricade here the one you see on the screen, it wasn't here.

Q. Where was it then?

A. It was in between this street and that street. That's where a ¹⁸⁶⁶⁸ truck was parked blocking the streets.

Q. You mean it was just further back several metres?

A. No, it couldn't have fitted in there. You couldn't have fit a truck sideways across that area there.

JUDGE MAY: Let's clarify this. Could you point again to where the barricade was or where the truck was.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was here.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So a little more northerly than is indicated on the diagram?

A. Yes, the truck blocked both streets.

Q. And is Redzep's house the one that has been drawn in as Redzep's house? Point to it, please.

A. This is where it is.

Q. Right. So that's Redzep's house and the barricade next to Redzep's house. Now, tell me this. Apart from the house, was there a sniper's nest at the barricade?

A. How do you mean?

Q. Machine-gun nest. I apologise. Precisely where Redzep's house is located.

A. You mean on the ground or up on the house?

Q. I mean on the ground. Take a look at this photograph and then you'll be able to see whether this is a machine-gun nest beside Redzep's house or not, because you say there was just a truck parked sideways, horizontally.

A. I don't think this fortification, such good fortification was a ¹⁸⁶⁶⁹ machine-gun nest.

Q. Was it in the location you're talking about?

A. I'm sure you can recognise this area being an inhabitant of Bijeljina yourself?

A. Yes, I think it is.

Q. Okay. Fine. And these sandbags --

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. Where is this, please, Witness B-1003? Where is it supposed to be?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is in front of Redzep's house. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think it is there. On the main road, the JNA road as it was called.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, tell me, please, the positioning of barricades and blocking important places in Bijeljina, not to mention the silo, the water tower, the bunker in the park, and where various other locations set up by Muslim extremists, did this precede the conflict between Serbs and Muslims or, rather, between Serb and Muslim forces in Bijeljina? Is that right or not, Mr. B-1003?

JUDGE MAY: Well, you should -- before you answer that, we'll consider the question. It's suggested, it seems to be, that there was a barricade or a blocking of the silo and the water tower and the bunker - it's not explained how this was done, but let us take it as a question - it's said by Muslim extremists or indeed any other Muslim forces.

Were those buildings in any way blocked or barricaded during the ¹⁸⁶⁷⁰ conflict?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the very beginning of the conflict.

JUDGE MAY: The usher can take a seat. That you can leave. Just take a seat yourself. Yes, go on.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some facilities at the very beginning, all I can say is that I know about it but I wasn't there at the time. I didn't see it with my own eyes, so I don't know exactly, 100 per cent, that some facilities were captured by certain people of Muslim ethnicity, were occupied by them. But this was short-lived, and afterwards, the Serbian forces took over everything. Regarding the water tower, as far as I know, I know there was shooting around it. Now that there was a machine-gun nest there or not, I can't say anything about that or not because I don't know. I don't know also regarding this question of a bunker. What do you mean about the bunker?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There was a bunker in the park.

A. I don't know that. I never saw anything in the park.

Q. Very well. Let's leave it at that. So there were blockades there, but very quickly the Serbian forces took them over. Is that what you're claiming now?

A. I'm saying again, and once again that there were blockades. I know of these two places, that there was some shooting around there, I do know. But that there were any important blockades and considerable ¹⁸⁶⁷¹ resistance, in view of such a well-fortified nest, you could easily get killed.

Q. But we're not going into military tactical issues. You were saying that the Serbs took over positions that had been occupied whereby Bijeljina was blocked. Is that in dispute or not?

A. What do you mean Bijeljina was blocked, when all of this was in the centre of town? If Bijeljina was to be blocked, it was to be blocked at the entry and exit points.

Q. Yes. It was also blocked at the exit points, and it was also blocked in various places in the centre of town. The only approaches were from Dvorovi. Is that right or not?

A. I'm pointing out once again that I didn't come across these barricades. I didn't see them except the two that I have already mentioned which are in town.

Q. Very well. So you're claiming that most people were killed at that location next to Redzep's house. And we've already established that there was a barricade there and there was fighting there.

JUDGE MAY: No. That's not what he said. That's not what he said at all. You're misrepresenting the evidence again. I'm going to -- I'm going to ask a question. I want something clarified at the moment. What the accused seems to be putting, Witness B-1003, is that this town was taken over by the Muslims first and that the Serb forces reacted and that there was fighting and, no doubt, he says in that fighting people were killed. Now, I want to understand the position. Is that the picture or is it the picture that the Serb forces took ¹⁸⁶⁷² over the town, there was some resistance and then people were killed? Can you just paint the picture for us so we can understand?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Serb forces surrounded Bijeljina and then they started entering Bijeljina, the Serb forces, when certain small groups, as far as I know, small Muslim groups, resisted, put up some resistance. This resistance was not very strong because no heavy weapons were used such as, for instance, higher-calibre weapons, except for the Serb forces who were shooting at that same tower. Now, whether there was someone up there on that tower, I don't know. In the area around the tower, there were no dead, as far as I know. And around this barricade, right next to this barricade, there were no dead, but in a side street.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Where the dead where was in the immediate vicinity of that barricade, isn't it? The barricade at Redzep's house.

A. Yes, it is in the immediate vicinity. But these were elderly people.

Q. Very well. Now, let's establish what it is you're claiming. There was no prior blockade or barricades erected by Muslim forces before the Serbs reacted. Is that what you're saying?

A. I have said what I know, and I don't know about anything else.

Q. So what you know is -- is what you know is that there were if I was a blockade of certain points including this barricade that we analysed a moment ago by Muslim forces? Is that what happened first or not?

A. I know only that when the Serb forces entered, the Muslim people ¹⁸⁶⁷³ did organise themselves slightly and put up resistance. As for barricades, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't see the barricades except for these two. And for me, who put up those barricades, I don't really know because I didn't find those barricades when I came there.

Q. So are you now telling us that this barricade at Redzep's house, which you are aware of -- who put up that barricade? The Serbs or Muslims?

A. I don't know who put it there. I know only of the truck, but who was behind it, I don't know.

Q. So you don't know whether it was Serbs or Muslims who put up the barricade at Redzep's house?

A. How I could know when I wasn't there? I don't know.

Q. And who was fighting around that barricade? Was it Serbs and Muslims?

A. All I can answer, I have -- I wasn't there. I don't know who was fighting against whom.

Q. What are you testifying about if you don't know who was fighting, where they were fighting, how they were fighting, or where they were fighting? What are you testifying about?

A. I have given my statement. You have it in front of you.

Q. Very well. You say that the Serb forces were in Dvorovi; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Weren't they in Amajlije?

A. That is where they came from. ¹⁸⁶⁷⁴

Q. What is the distance between Dvorovi and Amajlije?

A. Four, five, six kilometres.

Q. And where was their headquarters in Dvorovi or Amajlije?

A. Initially it was at the crossing from Badovinci towards Amajlije.

Q. And who was the commander of that Crisis Staff?

A. The commander of the Crisis Staff, I think at that time, was Mauzer. I'm not sure of that.

Q. Where is Mauzer from?

A. He is from the area of Bijeljina.

Q. Did Mauzer then cross over the river from Serbia or was he living there?

A. No. He was living in the area. But other soldiers did cross over from Serbia.

Q. What do you mean "other soldiers"?

A. Members of Arkan's unit.

Q. And do you know that they came through a private arrangement with the local leadership?

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. Tell me, please, did you see throughout that period anywhere the presence of the JNA? Please give me an answer to that question first.

A. A couple of days later, a unit was transferred from Serbia to Bosnia. I can't tell you exactly when.

Q. Very well. Let me be more specific. Did the JNA take part in those conflicts in Bijeljina?

A. In Bijeljina, no. In Janja, yes. ¹⁸⁶⁷⁵

Q. In Janja?

A. Yes.

Q. There were no conflicts in Janja.

A. Yes, but Janja was surrounded by members of the JNA, by an armoured unit which had come from -- from Bosanska or Sremska Raca.

Q. Never mind. We have witnesses from Janja to testify about that, so I won't ask you any further questions. We will establish that easily. So the JNA did not take part in the events in Bijeljina. Is that right or not?

A. I do know that the barracks in Bijeljina did not take part. I don't know how to put it. I didn't see members coming out of the barracks. I think that between the barracks and the paramilitary troops there were many problems so that the army in the Bijeljina barracks did not interfere. I do not know that they interfered.

Q. So they did not get engaged?

A. No. It was a communication unit so there was no need.

Q. Since the army did not take part, do you know whether any police from Serbia took part?

A. Police from Serbia? As far as I know I don't know that they took part directly. No, I don't know.

JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient moment. We must adjourn. We will adjourn. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. ¹⁸⁶⁷⁶

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know of an event within these conflicts when a group of Muslim extremists from Bijeljina led by Hasan Tiric -- do you know who Hasan Tiric is?

A. No.

Q. Well, do you know about an event that took place when he, with a certain man called Muhamed nicknamed Musa -- do you know who Musa is?

A. No.

Q. Well, do you know about the event when a group of extremists, Muslim extremists, from the direction of the hospital entered into Gulja Street and in a yard there found 19-year-old Zvonko Lazarevic and asked him to say which ethnicity he belonged to? And when the man refused to say, they asked him to take his clothes off to see if he had been circumcised. And once they had established that he was in fact a Serb, he was shot with four bullets. Do you know about that event?

A. No, I don't.

Q. And do you know that Mile Lukic came out of the house to see what was going on --

JUDGE MAY: No. He doesn't know about the event, so he can't help any further.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know about the killing of Antonija Ostojic?

A. No.

Q. All right. Fine. Take a look at these photographs, please. This ¹⁸⁶⁷⁷ is Antonija Ostojic, and this other man is Zvonko Lazarevic.

JUDGE MAY: No. He doesn't know anything about it, so there's no point showing him the photographs.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, on the photograph is a young man who has been stripped to establish what ethnicity he was and the man he was killed there.

JUDGE MAY: You can produce these photographs in due course, but you can't do it through this witness. This witness knows nothing about these alleged events.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness claims that the Muslim extremists did not go around killing Serbs.

JUDGE MAY: That's his evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- In Bijeljina. However, this young man is -- doesn't have any weapons. Neither does this old woman.

JUDGE MAY: No. You can't prove these things through him. If you can, you can call evidence about it during your case.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Tell they this then: Do you know about the killing of Risto Stevanovic. Risto Stevanovic

A. No. I don't know the man judging by the name. I don't know him.

Q. Do you know about a man on a bicycle perhaps who was killed by snipe fire precisely at one of these strongholds held by the Muslim extremists? Could you see that in the streets?

A. I know about one person who was killed on a bicycle, while riding ¹⁸⁶⁷⁸ a bicycle, but what his name was, I don't know.

Q. Well, if you know about the incident, would you like to take a look at this photograph of the man who was killed, who was driving his bicycle and I'm sure was not shooting at anybody while he was doing so. He was quite obviously a civilian just like the others, the other people who were killed?

A. Well, I can take a look at it if you like.

Q. Please go ahead. Here it is.

JUDGE MAY: Can you help with that photograph at all, Witness B-1003?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say is that I know where this person's body was located, whereas the other person was retarded, as far as I know. Now, who shot them, I don't know. I'm not sure. This is the very centre of town at any rate. I don't know that there were Muslim snipers in the vicinity.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, do you wish to say that it was the Serbs who killed him?

A. I said I didn't know.

Q. All right. Can we note then that you know nothing about the killing of an elderly lady called Antonija Ostojic born in 1926?

JUDGE MAY: We have been through that. Now, do you want these two photographs exhibited, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I'd like the others to be exhibited too.

JUDGE MAY: We're not exhibiting those with which the witness ¹⁸⁶⁷⁹ can't help, but you can have those two exhibited. You can have the barricade -- photograph of the barricade -- I mean not the barricade, the street exhibited which you've produced and the map which includes the barricade. You can have that exhibited too, if you wish. And we'll ask the registrar to deal with them in order beginning, perhaps, with the map.

THE REGISTRAR: The map will be marked D57.

JUDGE MAY: We're further on than that.

JUDGE KWON: 121. It should be 121 in my calculation.

THE REGISTRAR: Okay. The map will be marked D121, and the photo will be marked D122.

JUDGE MAY: And then we'll deal with the other two photographs of the dead bodies. At least they're on the same sheet, are they? That can have the next exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: This photo will be marked D123.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Now, do you know what the name of the Croatian lady was who was also killed from the fire of Muslim extremists in Bijeljina?

A. I think her name was Milena. Whether she was Croatian and whether she was killed by Serbo-Croatian forces, I really can't say, because as far as I know about a lady who was a Croat, she was killed through the window. I don't know any details about the killing.

Q. Her name was Mirjana Ilic.

A. Possibly. I can't say. I wasn't given any names, so I'm not sure. ¹⁸⁶⁸⁰

Q. Do you know her son, Tomislav Ilic, also a Croat?

A. No.

Q. And you don't know that he claims that she was killed by Muslim extremists?

JUDGE MAY: How can he know that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

JUDGE MAY: That's absurd. Of course he can't know that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not self-evident that he doesn't know what was going on in his own town and the subject he's testifying about.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about Lieutenant Smajic who died fighting against Muslim extremists?

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. Do you know that a street that had previously been called Braca Jaksic street was renamed and took his name, Admir Smajic, the second lieutenant and the -- former Second Lieutenant of the JNA?

A. Well, maybe he was killed on the battlefront in Croatia.

Q. All right. Take a look at his photograph and you can tell me perhaps. But may I have the list returned to me because I have some more things on that same page.

A. No, I don't know this person.

Q. All right. May have this piece of paper returned to me, please? And what about this: Do you know that all the persons killed in the centre of town were Serbs? ¹⁸⁶⁸¹

A. I said I didn't know who the persons killed were or the ethnicity of them all.

Q. And I don't suppose you know that they were shot from the sniper nest on the water tower and the roof of the department store where the machine-gun nest was positioned?

JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know who they were. He doesn't know how they were killed. Now, move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And do you know -- do you know, for example, that Risto Stevanovic was killed from the Party of Democratic Action premises which are located in Njegoseva number 7, Njegoseva Street number 7 in the centre of town?

A. I've already said I don't know the names of the persons killed and where they came from or how they were killed.

Q. And do you know do you know in the mosque in the centre of town there was also a sniper nest positioned there?

A. As far as I know, according to Serbian sources, at every ten metres there were sniper nests but that's what the Serb authorities claimed.

Q. All right. Since you say that you don't know how these people were killed or how they lost their lives and you don't know a single Serb who was killed on that occasion, how come you can claim then that the persons who were killed did not take part in any fighting as we're speaking about -- when talking about the Muslims who were killed, for example? How can you say they were civilians? ¹⁸⁶⁸²

A. As far as I know, all the people that I mentioned, I said that they were civilians and that they were not armed and that they were not wearing military uniforms but were wearing ordinary civilian clothing. Now, what ethnicity they were, I said I couldn't say either way.

Q. All right. Now, Ibrahim Belkic. Do you know that he was killed in battle at the town stadium?

A. No, I don't. I said I don't know the names.

Q. And do you know that Asim Fidahic was also killed at the town park also in battle?

JUDGE MAY: No. No point reading your list out. He doesn't know the names. He can't help us, so let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But mention is made here of Redzep's house, and we had the opportunity of seeing it on the diagram with the nest and the barricade and that it is in its vicinity that most of the bodies were found; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Now, do you know that Coso Nargalic was in command of that barricade?

A. I don't know that he was in command, no.

Q. Do you know that he was at the barricade?

A. I don't know that he was at the barricade either, but he was found in that location.

Q. Ah, he was found in that location. Now, do you know Amir Besic, ¹⁸⁶⁸³ nicknamed Begi, the Bay?

A. No.

Q. Do you know of a traffic policeman called Beli who from a Muslim village near Ugljevik --

A. A traffic policeman you say.

Q. Yes. And his nickname was Beli.

A. And you say he was killed.

Q. Yes, he was killed.

A. No, I haven't heard of him.

Q. A previous witness, Gusalic, who wasn't a protected witness, claimed that the Muslim forces held control of the area around the hospital for a full three days. Is he not telling the truth? And that that's where most the fighting took place, the barricade around Redzep's house and the whole hospital. Is that right or not?

A. Well, as to the fact that they held it for two or three days, I can't say, I don't know. Now, as to whether there was fighting or not, I don't know that either. All I know is that I was there on the second or third day perhaps after the conflict began.

Q. So you can't tell us anything about that. You know nothing about it?

A. No, I don't.

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁸⁴

[redacted]

A. That is possible.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I ask that the last question be redacted. It is something that would reveal the identity of the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how this can identify the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Do you want to ask any more questions about this? Let's go into private session while the accused asks his questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁸⁵ Pages 18685 to 18691 - - redacted - private session ¹⁸⁶⁹²

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are you aware that the operation of the attack against the Serbs was led by Hasan Piric, who was later killed?

A. I don't know. I don't know him.

Q. You don't know the man. You hadn't heard that he was in charge of the attack?

A. No.

Q. And had you heard of a unit called Black Swans which was later called after Hasan Piric because he was the founder of that unit?

A. Yes, I do know of the Black Swans. But who founded them, I don't know.

Q. Very well. Well, what do you know about that unit the Black Swans? Was it a unit of paramilitary Muslim extremists or not?

A. As far as I know, that unit belonged to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I think it was stationed somewhere near Sarajevo or in Sarajevo. I don't know.

Q. And do you remember that in the settlement Gvozderic, there was a clash among the Muslims themselves and that there were casualties there? Are you aware of that incident?

A. As far as I know, conflicts among Muslims themselves in Gvozderic, I'm not aware of that. I know the area well though.

Q. So you know nothing about that?

A. No.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's this other one that's been ¹⁸⁶⁹³ switched on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that after the situation calmed down in Bijeljina and these 500 long barrels were surrendered that many fled, precisely the organisers of the Hasan Piric operation? And not only did they surrender 500 barrels but they took a lot of weapons with them.

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. You spoke of lists of Muslims which had to be arrested, and these lists were in the possession of the police.

A. Correct.

Q. And are those lists of the people who provoked killings, blockades, killed these persons, and the police drew up a list of names of people that needed to be arrested?

A. It wasn't a police list.

Q. Was the police a multi-ethnic force?

A. The police was multi-ethnic, but only the Serb policemen had that list.

Q. Only Serb policemen had the list. How do you know that none of the Muslim policemen had that list?

A. I can only give you an answer in closed session, in private session.

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that that last question and ¹⁸⁶⁹⁴ answer be redacted from the transcript.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁶⁹⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In one of the questions, we observed that the police in Bijeljina was multi-ethnic; right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right then. Now, tell me this -- so we're talking about that area, general area, Bijeljina, Semberija, and the surrounding area. Is it true that the army of Republika Srpska was multi-ethnic too?

A. At that time, I really can't say. I don't know. I wasn't with the army. But as far as I know, the members of the Muslim -- of Muslim ethnicity in the reserve force of the army refused to mobilise, to go to the mobilisation call-up.

Q. And do you know that the 3rd Semberija Brigade numbered several thousand fighters and that mostly they were Muslims? Not mostly, but 95 per cent. The 3rd Semberija Brigade of the army of Republika Srpska. That's what I'm talking about.

A. That might be true, but all I can say about that brigade is that ¹⁸⁶⁹⁶ the brigade was composed of people from Bijeljina who were not able or did not succeed in escaping from Bijeljina. So they were mobilised. And while they were on the battlefront, their families were in Bijeljina.

Q. Do you mean to say by that that they were in some way forced to join the army?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. If they could have been -- if they could have been forced to be in the armies could they be forced to be commanders, leaders, directors, managers, functionaries in Bijeljina? Did anybody force them to take up positions of that kind in any way?

A. I don't know that there were any directors. And if the unit is made up of Muslim forces or predominantly Muslim soldiers, then it is quite normal for the commander to be one of them, one of those member.

Q. All right. Have you heard about Major Pasaga Halilovic, for example, who was commander of that 3rd Semberija Brigade in question and he was also the director of the Duvan company and is still a director there and is living in Bijeljina? Do you want to say that he and similar people were mobilised by force because their families were in Bijeljina and somebody would have done something to their families had they refused?

A. Probably.

Q. So they had to be commanders forcibly and leaders and directors and all the rest of it, is that what you're saying?

A. As far as I know, if you have been mobilised into the army, the army of the former Yugoslavia, that means you were mobilised for the place you were mobilised for or in. And the same system applied in Republika ¹⁸⁶⁹⁷ Srpska.

Q. All right. Do you know that the Chief of Staff of that brigade, for example was Major Sejfudin Buric and he was professor of defence and projection [as interpreted] at the agricultural school as well. Do you know the man?

A. No.

Q. What about Captain Sead Tikvesa? Do you know of him?

A. I don't know of him either. The only officers that I knew were the former JNA officers.

Q. Well, these were as well. They were either active-duty officers or reserve JNA officers depending on their professions.

A. Right. You could know the active ones but you couldn't know the reserve ones.

Q. All right. How about Jusuf Joltic, have you heard of him?

A. No.

Q. How will Samir Joltic?

A. No, I don't know him either.

Q. Alija Omerovic?

A. No.

Q. And Salcin Mehic? What about him?

A. No. Those names are not familiar. I can't remember them.

Q. Well, I'm giving you the names of different people who were Muslims from the Muslim community who were in the army of Republika Srpska. What about Alija Durakovic? Have you heard of him?

A. I think that name rings a bell. ¹⁸⁶⁹⁸

Q. Well, what about Sead Becirevic?

A. No, I can't recall.

Q. Salko Dragic, another one?

A. No.

Q. Alija Fazlic?

A. I don't know him either.

Q. Adnan Berberovic?

A. That rings a bell, but --

Q. Ferid Terzic?

A. Don't know him either.

Q. Mirsad Sejdic, nickname Murge?

A. No.

Q. Ferhat Terzic, how about him?

A. I can't recall.

Q. Mirsad Tepavcevic?

A. Likewise, I don't know him either.

Q. Muhamed Lipnjicevic, a captain?

A. It sort of rings a bell but I don't know that he was a captain.

Q. And Smail Candzic?

A. No.

Q. All right. I won't read out any more names. You have recognised a few of them.

Now, do you think that they were forced, that they were forcibly recruited into the army of Republika Srpska and that they were forced to be its members? ¹⁸⁶⁹⁹

A. As far as I know, I don't think any of them would have gone voluntarily.

Q. All right. Do you know that Captain Sead, for example, Captain Sead Tikvesa, and a man called Pulja were captured in the battles at Orasje by the other side and slaughtered quite literally? Their throats were cut?

A. As far as I know, one command of the brigade was captured, this Muslim one you mentioned, and that same command was exchanged later on with the authorities of the Republika Srpska. There was an exchange that took place and the people were there.

Q. The authorities of Republika Srpska exchanged their own soldiers for the soldiers captured from the enemy side, and they exchanged them for the Muslim captives that they had in their ranks. Do you know about that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that in Orasje, Smail Candzic, and Ramo Durakovic and Jusuf Berisa had all been captured there and Alija Omerovic and Major Sejfudin Buric as well? They were all exchanged in the same way for the members of the enemy side who had been captured. Do you know about that?

A. I said as far as I knew, this same command or however many people there were there asked for an exchange to take place, and they asked to go back to the Serbian side again for the simple reason that their families were there. Their families had stayed behind in that area.

Q. Well, do you know that it was precisely those forces who held the line between Orasje, Loncari, Krepsic, Markovica Polje, Gorica, Vuksic, that general area? ¹⁸⁷⁰⁰

A. No, I don't.

Q. And do you know that in the units of the army of Republika Srpska, of the guards, the security chief was a Croat, Dusko Tuzlancic, and the head of security in the 2nd Semberija was a Croat as well. Dusko Kondor was his name.

A. Who was his wife? Who was he married to?

Q. All right. That is what you give as your only explanation.

JUDGE MAY: You've got an answer to the witness's question. You have a huge amount of detail. Do you know the wife of Dusko Kondor?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know who his wife is.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably she's a Serb.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that or do you just assume it?

A. I assume it. But I think I know so too, although I'm not quite sure. You can check it out yourself, if you like.

Q. All right. And I assume that as you are well acquainted with the town of Bijeljina itself, you know that, that's not being challenged, is it? You're well acquainted with Bijeljina. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, fairly.

Q. Well, do you know the changes in some of the street names in Bijeljina?

A. At what period of time?

Q. Precisely after the conflicts in Bijeljina. When you say that the Serb authorities and that the Serb authorities were, according to you, nationalists and against the Muslims. Isn't that what you're claiming? ¹⁸⁷⁰¹

A. What I know is that some streets changed their names. Which ones exactly, I don't know, but I think that for example, one of the streets which ran -- which stretched towards Amajlije was changed. The name became the JNA street. And there were some other changes as well.

Q. There were changes, but what do you think about the changes that were made, for example, whereby Serb names were replaced with Muslim names? Is that an indicator of any kind of Serb nationalism or does it point to a respect which the two ethnic groups have vis-a-vis each other, especially in Bijeljina? Isn't that an illustration of that?

A. Well, all I know is that changes took place. And for example, the JNA Street is no longer called the JNA Street. It is called the Serb Volunteer Forces Street.

Q. And do you know, for example, that the Braca Jaksic Street, and that is a Serb name, Braca Jaksic, it changed its name to become the street of Second Lieutenant Smajic? That's what it's called.

A. What's it called now?

Q. I assume it's called the same way now. And do you know that the Patrice Lumumba Street changed its name and became Camil Sijaric Street?

A. Well, perhaps at that time its name did change, but what's the situation like now? Is it still named that?

Q. Well, my information is up-to-date. I receive the information now, not then. So I assume they're the same. The Brigade street is now Muslim Brigade Street; right?

A. I think that the Muslimanska Brigada or Muslim Brigade Street has another name. Check it out again. ¹⁸⁷⁰²

Q. Well, we have the Official Gazette of Bijeljina, the official papers when the Municipal Assembly makes decision of that kind, it decides whether or not to change street names. For example, the Ivan Markovic Street, Irac, Ivana Markovica Ulica changed its name to become Hasan Kikic Street. Is that right or not?

A. As I say, there were changes. Now, whether those changes have remained to the present day, I'm not quite sure. Because at the end of the conflicts in Bijeljina, there were changes that were made during those two months, as far as I know, but later on I know that they were changed again.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got two minutes left.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I've got quite a lot more questions left, Mr. May. As always.

JUDGE MAY: No. Two minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Mr. B-1003, you were told that there was a state of war in Bijeljina. Now, is it true that when you arrived in Bijeljina there was no war there at all at the time any longer?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. Because everything had been completed within the space of two or three days. Everything was over.

Q. You said a moment ago that you arrived in Bijeljina on the 1st of April.

A. Yes, that's right. ¹⁸⁷⁰³

Q. And you said that when you arrived, there was no war after that.

A. On the first two days there was some sporadic fire but no serious clashes.

Q. I'm going to have to skip some questions which would require private session again. I'm not going to name any names or institutions that you worked in, [redacted]

[redacted]

MR. GROOME: Objection, Your Honour. I ask that that be redacted.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁷⁰⁴

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So if it's just one more question that I'm being allowed, then let me ask you this: You were shown a document here which the competent authorities in Bijeljina sent down the vertical line to the authorities of Republika Srpska, and in the document it says as follows, and this was quoted to you, separately quoted. It's not very legible, but in the paragraph that you were quoted, it says that the security situation in Bijeljina was destabilised, had been destabilised in the night between the 31st of March, 1992, when the Muslim extremists set up barricades in the centre of town and that during the night and during the following day, the Territorial Defence and the Serbian National Guard, as well as the Serbian Volunteer Guard, started to dismantle those blockades under the leadership of the Crisis Staff of the Bijeljina municipality. Now, does the fact that the competent authorities are informing their superior organs about the fact that what had happened was that first these blockades had been set up by the Muslim extremists, which the Serb forces then had to dismantle and do away with in order to enable life to ¹⁸⁷⁰⁵ return back to normal in Bijeljina, does that testify as to cause and effect, what the cause was and what the effect was? Yes or no?

JUDGE MAY: No. Just deal with that briefly, if you would.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, from that passage that was read out, there were some barricades. Perhaps that is true, and that the Serb guards or Serb Volunteer Guards intervened. That seems to me to be slightly incorrect, because the interventions undertaken by Arkan's men, it is the Arkan's men who went first. And allegedly those barricades or those points were attacked by them one by one. And as far as I know, that same Serbian guard and the other paramilitary units moved behind Arkan's men and slowly emptied the shops.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions for this witness, please?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I might need five or six minutes to cover the questions I have in mind which I think would be useful for Your Honours.

I'm not quite sure, Your Honours, whether this list of rich, well to do Muslims that existed, according to this witness, were in open session at the time. I think we were.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] You said -- we heard what you said during the examination-in-chief, that this was a list of well-off citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina of Muslim ethnicity; is that right?

A. Yes. ¹⁸⁷⁰⁶

Q. And in your statement to the investigators, you said that when you returned after the 1st of May to Bijeljina, in the police station you were shown or you heard that there existed an official list of Muslims that were being looked for for certain criminal offences that they had committed. You never mentioned that these were lists of rich Muslims who were suspected of criminal offences. Which is correct?

A. The Serb forces had compiled that list of these people, giving the explanation that they had committed crimes, that they were perpetrators of criminal offences. And when you read through that list and review it, you see that these were persons who were rather better off than others.

Q. I can understand all that, but would you explain to the Court why you didn't say at the time that these were prosperous citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were Muslims? Why didn't you tell them then?

A. I don't know. Maybe I forgot.

Q. Very well. And another point. You also said on the 1st of May you had a day off, and then the next day you went to Brcko but you were -- no. You were told by phone to go to Brcko and to stop the looting in the area.

First of all, is that the order you received? And who gave you that order to go and prevent such serious criminal offences? Who gave you that order?

A. It came from the SUP.

Q. Thank you. In the document which you explained to Their Honours today answering questions by the Prosecutor, tab 3, Exhibit 420, it says under point 4 that you explained -- ¹⁸⁷⁰⁷

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is a sealed exhibit, tab 3.

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁷⁰⁸

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1003, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go. I'm going to ask you to remain just for a minute or two while I read something out. It has nothing to do with you at all, but we have to make rearrangements for you to leave, so it's easier if you just remain. I'm going to give an oral ruling in relation to the admission of ¹⁸⁷⁰⁹ the evidence of Rule 92 bis witnesses that we discussed last week. It deals with the following witnesses: C-1052, 1063, 1084, 1091, 1140, 1152, 1153.

All these statements are admissible under Rule 92 bis. None deal with the acts or conduct of the accused or in any way proximate to him. It is also cumulative in the sense of being evidence of alleged attacks on villages and killings by the JNA and other Serb or Croatian Serb forces. However, the witnesses will be required to attend for cross-examination since their evidence deals with a matter put in issue by the accused, namely the role and the use of the JNA and other Croatian Serb and Serb forces in the attacks on villages and killings.

The accused criticised the quality of the statements in his submissions, saying that he had found 38 instances during the course of the evidence where witnesses had disclaimed parts of their statement. But it should be noted that Rule 92 bis provides a safeguard for this eventuality since the Rule requires witnesses to make a written declaration that the contents are true and correct. This entails the witness in checking the contents and making any alterations necessary. We were unable to conclude the remaining witnesses on the list for last week. We will conclude them as soon as we can this week. Perhaps you would pass that on to Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MR. GROOME: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is out of the office this week. Mr. McKeon will be handling that matter for her.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. McKeon, we will deal with that as soon as we conveniently can. There are, I think, another six and then we need ¹⁸⁷¹⁰ to do another tranche after that.

MR. McKEON: In addition to the other six that were originally on that list, I think there may be two Dubrovnik witnesses that have perhaps been overlooked. That would be C-1197 and C-1210. And I would ask that they could also be considered.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will look at those. Do we have videolink tomorrow?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. There are two witnesses scheduled -- their testimony to be taken by videolink.

JUDGE MAY: Do they both have to be dealt with tomorrow?

MR. GROOME: They're from the same location. One person lives very close to that location, and it could go on -- I don't know if Your Honour is thinking about Wednesday or a day aside from Wednesday.

JUDGE MAY: Tuesday and Wednesday.

MR. GROOME: Yes. That would be possible.

JUDGE MAY: Just so we know what the time parameters are. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.