Milosevic Transcript 2003-04-08

¹⁸⁷¹¹

Tuesday, 8 April 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: I observe that we are more than a quarter of an hour late in sitting. The reason is the delays in bringing the accused to this court. This is not a matter which can simply be overlooked if it's going to happen day after day. It's not simply a matter of inconvenience to the Court, it's a matter in which time is wasted, public and international time and money is wasted. We shall raise this with the Registry and any other appropriate authority to get the matter sorted out. We will sit again until 2.00 in order to catch up. But this can't go on as a normal response day-in day-out; it will inconvenience other trials. So the matter must be resolved.

Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's inconvenient for me too because I have to wait from 8.15 onwards, and the reasons aren't linked to anything that I can do. They're out of my -- it's out of my hands.

JUDGE MAY: We know that. We'll take it up with the authorities. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is Witness B-1486, via videolink.

Your Honour, just on a scheduling matter, I will go into the details of this later on, but there's a scheduling change. Witness 1633, who is in The Hague, for reasons I will explain later is -- will not be ¹⁸⁷¹² testifying tomorrow as scheduled. The Prosecution is proposing to advance Thursday's witness, 1493, until -- to tomorrow and then schedule Morten Torkildsen on Thursday.

JUDGE MAY: No doubt you could explain why in due course. Yes. Can the registrar come up for a moment.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that a pseudonym sheet be placed on the overhead projector, and I'd ask that it be displayed in such a way that only the witness via videolink can see it.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1486

[Witness testified via videolink]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MR. GROOME: B-1486, I'd ask you to take a look --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's to take the declaration first. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to sit down again. Yes, Mr. Groome.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁷¹³

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to briefly describe your background.

A. I was born in Janja. I graduated from university. Up until the beginning of the war in 1992, I worked in my own profession. I grew up in Janja and spent the whole of my life from birth to September 1994 -- 17th of September, 1994 in Janja.

Q. What is your ethnic background?

A. My ethnic background is Muslim. I am a Bosniak.

Q. And what is the ethnicity or ethnic make-up of Janja?

A. Janja was inhabited by the Muslim population. 99 per cent of the inhabitants were Muslim, in fact.

Q. And can you describe for the Chamber, where is Janja with respect to the town of Bijeljina?

A. Janja is situated 11 kilometres upstream of the Drina River, in comparison to Bijeljina, in relation to Bijeljina.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to February of 1992. At that period of time, did you hear reports about armed forces gathering in the vicinity of Bijeljina? ¹⁸⁷¹⁴

A. Yes, we did hear about the gathering of armed forces, but they were paramilitary armed forces under the leadership of Arkan.

Q. And to your knowledge, where were they gathering? What are the names of the locations?

A. They were gathering in villages around Bijeljina on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also on the territory of Serbia.

Q. Can you name any of the villages --

A. The places --

Q. Please continue.

A. It was the village of Badovinci, which is located in Serbia, and the village of Popovi, which is in fact in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. And can you tell us with as much precision as you can, when did you first hear reports that Arkan and his men were in these locations?

A. At the end of February and the beginning of March 1992.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the beginning of April. Did there come a time when you yourself heard artillery and gunfire?

A. Where we were, we weren't subjected to direct fire or artillery shooting.

Q. Could you hear any such fire?

A. Yes, we could hear it, but it came from Bijeljina.

Q. With as much precision as you're able, when did you hear this gunfire?

A. It was on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 1992, during the Muslim holiday of Bajram.

Q. What did you do in response to hearing this gunfire? ¹⁸⁷¹⁵

A. We were in the place we lived in, and we didn't react at all at that time.

Q. Did some of your neighbours go into or attempt to go into the town of Bijeljina?

A. No, they did not, nor did they go, because the telephone lines were still working, and we were in contact with our relatives in Bijeljina and they gave us some information as to what was going on there.

Q. From Janja, did you hear reports about tanks being on the road between Bijeljina and Janja?

A. Yes, we did hear about that, and we were able to see some of the tanks in the suburbs, in the periphery between Janja and the first village bordering on Janja.

Q. How many tanks were you able yourself to personally see?

A. As it's flat land all around the periphery of Janja, we were only able to see three tanks.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you, Mr. Groome, tell the witness not to refer to "we." He's giving evidence about what he saw or heard, and it's very confusing if he talks about "we saw tanks" and all the rest of it. Just keep him, if you would, at what he saw and did.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. B-1486, I want to draw your attention to a few days after that. Did you yourself see anybody come to Janja and address people of Janja?

A. When Bijeljina was occupied by Arkan and his paramilitary units, Arkan came to Janja with his escort and addressed the citizens of Janja.

Q. And were you yourself present for -- for that address? ¹⁸⁷¹⁶

A. Yes, I was. I was among the inhabitants present when Arkan personally addressed the citizens of Janja.

Q. Did the entire population of Janja appear for that address?

A. There was a large mass of inhabitants. I can't give you an exact percentage as to how many people rallied in the centre of Janja on the occasion.

Q. Can you summarise for the Court what it was that Arkan said to the crowd?

A. Arkan said that he demanded that the population hand over their weapons, including hunting rifles and any weapons they had, and that he would guarantee the security of the population, that nothing would happen to them.

Q. Did the people of Janja comply with that direction?

A. The people of Janja did comply with that demand and handed over all the weapons they had with them.

Q. Did people of -- or did anybody in Janja offer any resistance to Arkan on that day?

A. During that entire day and later on, until the population of Janja was actually forced out of their homes, not a single bullet was fired by the Muslim inhabitants in Janja.

Q. At that point in time, were there any soldiers from the Yugoslav People's Army present in Janja?

A. His -- Arkan's escorts came along with Arkan, but at the time there were no soldiers belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army in Janja.

Q. To get to Janja, would Arkan have had to have travelled the same ¹⁸⁷¹⁷ road upon which you saw three JNA tanks?

A. Arkan took the asphalt road between Bijeljina and Janja, and I saw three tanks on our own fields, our agricultural land.

Q. Would he have passed within sight of those tanks?

A. He must have seen the tanks because those tanks were deployed on a piece of land which belonged to the agricultural concern in the village of Kojcinovac.

Q. Can you describe for the Chamber how your life, your situation, was affected by Arkan's entry into Janja and the municipality of Bijeljina.

A. After handing over all the weapons by the Muslim population, the police changed their insignia. Arkan, at the time, told the inhabitants that as of that moment, pound authority in the Bijeljina municipality was in the hands of the so-called Serbian authorities.

Q. Did there come a time when you lost some of your personal property as a result of the takeover of Janja?

A. Curfew, as it was called, was introduced. All the telephone lines were cut so that we were not able to communicate with Bijeljina or further afield in the world. Our movements were restricted so that the inhabitants weren't able to leave Janja, going off in any direction, taking any of the roads out.

Q. And did you have any property taken from you?

A. Yes, I did. Gradually. It was gradually taken away, and finally, all my property was confiscated in September 1994.

Q. Are you personally aware of mosques in Janja that were destroyed ¹⁸⁷¹⁸ in March of 1993?

A. Yes, I am aware of that. Both the mosques were destroyed, the mosques which had existed in Janja up until then. They were first set fire to, and then later on they were mined.

Q. How many mosques in Janja were destroyed?

A. Two mosques were destroyed in Janja.

Q. Were you personally aware of other mosques in the town of Bijeljina that were destroyed after April of 1992?

A. In Bijeljina, all five mosques which had existed up until then were destroyed, and they were all in working order.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to play an excerpt from a -- a news report which shows some of the destruction of mosques. There's also a portion at the end of the clip which is related to deportation. The clip is only -- it's less than seven minutes long. It may take longer than that to cue it. So with the Court's indulgence, I may just start the clip now for the mosques and let it run through till the end.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, sounds sensible.

[Videotape played]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁷¹⁹

[redacted]

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, obviously there was a technical problem. I would note, for the record, that it seems to be a current piece of news that was inserted into our transcript, beginning at 9.36.52, [redacted] [redacted]. So I'd ask that be removed from the record. The tape is being re-cued now.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we note what you said.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there seems to be some technical problem. If perhaps we skip it. Perhaps in redirect examination we could correct this problem and, with the leave of the Court, show it then.

JUDGE MAY: Have you very much more in direct?

MR. GROOME: No, I don't, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, rather than waste time, what we'll do is we will deal with the evidence, we'll have cross-examination. If this is working by the end of your direct examination, we'll hear it. If not, we'll come back to it at the end. Of course the accused will have the opportunity of cross-examining on it.

Yes.

MR. KAY: If I can just raise a matter. Your Honour, I was waiting to see what happened with the exhibits this morning. I notice that in tab 4 we've got a video clip with commentary, obviously by a journalist, Channel Four News, with a description of events which it seems ¹⁸⁷²⁰ the Prosecution is intending to put in as part of the video evidence rather than the pictures themselves. In my submission, it should be the pictures themselves that go in in evidence rather than what the journalist says.

JUDGE MAY: But how are we to know what the pictures mean unless we have the commentary?

MR. KAY: That can be done by Prosecution counsel's description. There's a witness called Ridelmayer, who is a cultural --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. But we're dealing at the moment with specific mosques. He's going to deal at some stage, later on, he's going to deal with a number of mosques.

MR. KAY: He identifies these mosques as well in his report.

JUDGE MAY: What is objectionable about this particular commentary?

MR. KAY: Well, it's the fundamental point that the journalist who is making the commentary isn't a witness in the case and isn't here to be questioned.

JUDGE MAY: But what is he saying which you object to?

MR. KAY: Well, if we look at the second line, "upheaval caused by the Serbian campaign of ethnic cleansing in Eastern Bosnia." This isn't a description of the geographical places, the locations, that kind of information. This is commentary on the events that this Trial Chamber is dealing with. It's as if the journalist is giving evidence to this Trial Chamber in a remote way and giving his opinions. It's just dangerous evidence, in our submission, to come in in this form. ¹⁸⁷²¹

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. One suggestion, of course, is that what we simply do is play it because that will tell us what it is and we ignore his comments. Because they're those, as you rightly say, those of a journalist. He's not a witness. He can't be cross-examined. But when he's describing, "This is Bijeljina and this is the mosque," well, presumably that's not going to be objectionable.

MR. KAY: That's not objectionable. All I do is point out that if the sound is taken out, there is sufficient linkage evidence to inform the Trial Chamber where these places are in the Ridelmayer report.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The difficulty is to combine the two. I mean, of course you may have it in front of you, but for those of us who don't, and the fact that it's not going to be given at the same time, and the fact that there's so much evidence in this case, I think would make it convenient probably to play it. But of course we'll hear and consider it. Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I proceed with the next set of questions or argument on this point?

JUDGE MAY: I think we'd better hear some -- what would you say about that?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution certainly isn't offering the commentary for the truth of what the commentator is saying but simply to assist the Chamber. I think it is also worth noting that the destruction of the mosque in Bijeljina was something that received quite a bit of media coverage, which may be important for the Chamber to consider, ¹⁸⁷²² just the fact that there was media coverage, when considering whether the accused had notice of the events of this nature in Bijeljina. But I agree with Mr. Kay, and the Prosecution is not advancing this evidence for the truth of what the commentator is saying about Bijeljina.

MR. KAY: A solution may be just to remove tab 4, because you'll have the transcript of the proceedings which advise the Trial Chamber what this particular passage of evidence relates to. But the transcript of it has been included as an exhibit at the moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. That seems to be a sensible compromise. We'll remove tab 4 but we will allow the commentary played. Of course the comments of the journalist, as throughout, are not admissible as to the truth of it, but it will inform us, of course, what we're actually looking at, and we need that. So we'll remove tab 4 but we'll allow the commentary.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1486, I would ask you to look at your monitor. It is Prosecution Exhibit --

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if we might have a number for exhibits with this witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, that bundle.

THE REGISTRAR: P420.

MR. GROOME: I believe we used 420 yesterday. 21? I believe there were a couple of pseudonym sheets also marked. ¹⁸⁷²³ By our records, it's 423 -- 423 is the next number.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, 423.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Correction. Our records are showing 422 would be the next number.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

THE REGISTRAR: So the pseudonym sheet will be 422, and then the binder for this witness will be P423. Thank you.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1486, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab 1. It is a series of two photographs. Can you please tell us whether you recognise what's depicted in these photographs.

A. This is the mosque which used to stand in the centre of Janja and which was destroyed in 1993.

Q. The picture on the bottom half of the page, does that indicate the location as it appears today?

A. Today a new mosque is under construction and construction is almost complete, so that today there is a newly constructed mosque here, as of today.

Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the next set of photographs. It's Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab 2. Do you recognise what's depicted in these photographs?

A. Yes. This is another mosque in Janja. It is about 500 metres upstream from the mosque we have just seen. This mosque, too, was destroyed in 1993. The bottom photograph shows the present-day situation.

Q. I'd ask you now to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab 3. ¹⁸⁷²⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁷²⁵ Do you recognise what's depicted in this -- in these two photographs?

A. This is a mosque that used to stand in Bijeljina between the youth centre and the court. This mosque was also destroyed in 1993. On this spot today there is a clear space which is fenced in.

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to March of 1993. Did there come a time when local Muslim men were being coerced into joining the Army of the Republika Srpska?

A. It is correct. They were coerced, especially employees working in companies. They were given two options: Either they should accept a military assignment and go to the front line in order to keep their jobs, or they could give up their jobs if they did not want to accept a military assignment.

Q. Were there schools available for the children of Muslim occupants of Janja?

A. Schools were available, but the curriculum was the curriculum of the then-Yugoslavia, that is, Serbia.

Q. Did there come a time when you yourself had to leave Janja?

A. Yes. At one point in time, under psychological pressure, all the inhabitants of Janja had to leave. Before this, they were robbed by military conscripts belonging to the Serbian army and the Serbian police.

Q. Can you give us an approximate time of when you left Janja.

A. In mid-September 1994.

Q. Can you please describe the circumstances under which you left.

A. Everything was taken from us, from agricultural machinery and livestock to houses. Practically everything we owned was first taken from ¹⁸⁷²⁶ us. And then we were forced to abandon our property. We could no longer dispose of it.

Q. What happened to your house?

A. My house was confiscated by -- by a policeman who was a member of the special police.

Q. Do you know a person by the name of Vojkan?

A. Yes. He was a well-known person, and he organised the removal of the population of Janja.

Q. Was he involved on the day that you left Janja?

A. Yes. Yes. He organised convoys, or rather, he organised transportation as far as a place called Ban Brdo. But afterwards, he also organised the confiscation of all our valuables; gold jewellery, money, anything of value.

Q. Sir, my last questions to you will be after I ask you to view a videotape. I'm going to play that videotape for you now, and I will ask you my questions when it concludes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe that it is technically possible now.

Apparently it is, Your Honour. I would ask that we revert to the original plan, with the possibility of, on re-examination, showing the video. I have no further questions of this witness at this time.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] According to what you say and according to the ¹⁸⁷²⁷ information here, Janja was almost a purely Muslim village; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. According to the census of 1991, there were 10.029 Muslims, 217 Serbs, 17 Croats, 179 Yugoslavs, and 123 others. So one could say that 97 or 98 per cent of the village was Muslim.

A. That's correct.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I don't know why this is being shown. All right.

Yes. Go on. Go on, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it correct, Mr. 1486, that at the time of these conflicts in late March or early April, as you said, the 2nd or 3rd of April, in that period you held a leading position in a company in Belgrade?

A. That's not correct.

Q. Were you employed in Belgrade?

A. That's not correct.

Q. So it's not correct you were employed in Belgrade?

A. No, it's not.

Q. I have to take a look. You say on page 3 here of your statement, it says in paragraph 2, in the second sentence of paragraph 2: "As I worked in Belgrade, from that moment it became a foreign country. I could not travel there. So after about two months, I was fired from my work." I won't mention the name of the company in order to avoid identifying you. So were you or were you not employed in Belgrade? This is what it says in ¹⁸⁷²⁸ your statement.

A. I happened to be in Janja on Bajram when the conflict in Bijeljina broke out.

Q. Mr. 1486, I didn't ask you where you happened to be at that moment. What I asked you was: Did you have a job in Belgrade? Is this correct? Were you or were you not employed in Belgrade?

A. Yes, I was employed in Belgrade.

Q. Until when did you work in Belgrade?

A. Until the outbreak of the conflict in Bijeljina.

Q. So when the conflict broke out, you stopped going to work in Belgrade; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And how long had you been employed in Belgrade at that point?

A. Eight years.

Q. A full eight years?

A. Yes.

Q. In view of your year of birth and so on, you worked in Belgrade as a young man. Did you have any problems in Belgrade because you were a Muslim?

A. Not until that point in time.

Q. Not until then. But after that, you didn't even go to Belgrade; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. So in all your experience, did you ever experience any problems in Serbia as a Muslim? ¹⁸⁷²⁹

A. No.

Q. Do you know that many refugees, including over 70.000 Muslims, fled to Serbia?

A. I'm not aware of this.

Q. But you are aware of the fact that many refugees fled to Serbia.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. You say that some sort of paramilitary units arrived in late February, early March. My information, collected by my associates, says that the events you speak of happened in the night of the 31st of March and on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April. Is this correct or not?

A. It's correct as far as Bijeljina is concerned.

Q. Do you know how these conflicts started?

A. I was not at all interested in politics at the time, so I don't know how the conflicts started.

Q. Do you know anything about the blockade of Bijeljina carried out by the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, that is, Muslim extremists, just before the conflict broke out? Do you know anything about this?

A. No. All I know is that Arkan caused the conflicts in Bijeljina.

Q. Do you know that, at the invitation of local leadership, he arrived only after the blockade had been set up?

A. No. If there were legal authorities there, why would they call on him with his paramilitary units which were illegal?

Q. Well, you'd probably have to ask them and not me. But this is a fact I'm putting forward. ¹⁸⁷³⁰

JUDGE MAY: No good asking this witness about it. He's not from -- he's not from Bijeljina, he's not interested in politics, this is yet another semantic debate. So let's move on. Ask him about Janja. He knows about that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I know what I have to ask him about.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. 1486, you say that Janja was under a blockade. Did you personally see some sort of blockade of Janja?

A. During two or three days on the Bijeljina side, I saw personally three tanks with their barrels pointing towards Janja. This was the period when the population of Janja could not leave Janja in any direction.

Q. According to information I have, no inhabitant of Janja or Bijeljina was ever prohibited from leaving that area, nor were any permits necessary for this. Is this correct or not?

A. Permits were needed by all able-bodied male citizens of Janja who had to go to Bijeljina.

Q. Very well, Mr. 1486. You have just said that there was no activity by the JNA and that the JNA did not participate in these events. Is this correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. How can you say, then, that the JNA blockaded you when you saw, which I doubt, three tanks on a farm near Janja? There were soldiers all over Yugoslavia, on the entire territory.

A. That's correct. But who was it who had tanks in that period? ¹⁸⁷³¹

Q. Well, the JNA certainly had to have tanks in that period. And in that period, as you know, the JNA was on its own territory, the territory of Yugoslavia. Many units of the JNA were deployed all over Yugoslavia, but they did not take action against anyone. In the events that you speak of, did the JNA do anything at all that could be described as violent?

A. Mr. Milosevic, on that day Bosnia was already recognised, and you speak of the presence of units of the JNA which then had tanks. How could the JNA be on that territory?

Q. Mr. 1486, you know that, unfortunately, tragically, Bosnia was recognised prematurely on the 16th of April, the date that Hitler bombed Yugoslavia in 1941.

JUDGE MAY: We're certainly getting a very long way from the evidence. Now, come back to Janja or we'll stop.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have we cleared this up? Was Janja blocked or not?

A. Yes, it was, for two days, two or three days, because the population could not go anywhere. They could not leave Janja at all.

Q. Was Janja surrounded by JNA tanks?

A. I saw only three tanks on one side.

Q. So it was not encircled. What, then, did this blockade consist in, that you speak of?

A. Limited movement of the population.

Q. And who limited your movement? It had to be some forces that limited your movement. Someone had to have ordered you not to move around. Who was it who limited your movement? Who was present in Janja ¹⁸⁷³² to limit your movement?

A. There was a checkpoint on the road leading from Janja to Bijeljina and another one leading to Zvornik.

Q. And who manned these checkpoints?

A. Some sort of forces, but I can't tell you exactly who they were because I didn't even attempt to go to those places, to see who these people were.

Q. You said that Arkan came to Janja and called on the people to hand over their weapons; is that correct?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Do you remember - at least, that's what my information says - that he was accompanied by the deputy commander of the traffic police who was an inhabitant of Janja, Mehmed Gruhonjic. Do you remember this?

A. This was ten years ago, so I couldn't give you a precise answer now.

Q. Do you remember that there were only a few of them, only a few men accompanying him, that there was no unit there, that there had been no fighting?

A. There were four or five men escorting him, escorting Arkan.

Q. Very well. Four or five men? And according to you and as my information says, he made a speech, he stayed about a quarter of an hour, and then he left. Is that correct?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is it correct, I have noted down that you said that not a single bullet was fired by the Muslims. That's what you said, didn't you, ¹⁸⁷³³ Mr. 1486?

A. Yes.

Q. Was a single bullet fired by the Serbs?

A. Not in that period, not on the Muslims.

Q. So not a single bullet was fired by anyone; is that correct?

A. Yes. But later on there were problems. So this refers only to that period.

Q. So when was this later, as you say?

A. The problems started in late 1992 and continued.

Q. So the problems started in late 1992?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, let's clarify this. Did someone shoot at somebody? Did someone fire on someone? Was someone killed in Janja?

A. Yes, there were such cases.

Q. Let's be very precise about this and clarify it fully because my information says the opposite, that nobody was killed in Janja. And secondly, is it correct that the problems started only when refugees began to arrive in Janja from various places from which Serbs were fleeing under pressure from Muslim forces and the crimes committed there? Is this correct or not?

A. It's correct that problems were caused by Serbs arriving in Janja and taking over our housing and taking our property.

Q. Well, Mr. 1486, is it correct that problems were not caused by the citizens of the neighbouring villages or your fellow villagers of -- people from Bijeljina but refugees fleeing from places where they had been ¹⁸⁷³⁴ under threat?

A. That's correct. Most of the problems were caused by people arriving in Janja and settling there.

Q. I assume that your neighbours and the citizens of Bijeljina had no need to move into your houses because they were already living there.

A. That's correct.

Q. So these had to be people arriving from other areas from which they had been expelled.

A. That's correct.

Q. Well, if that's correct, is it also correct that this huge mass of refugees inevitably produced a situation which was suitable or conducive to various sorts of criminal actions under such circumstances?

A. That's correct. These problems --

Q. Give me a specific example. You say that a policeman confiscated your house. Where did this policeman come from? Was he from Bijeljina? Was he from your neighbourhood? Or did he arrive from somewhere else?

A. He arrived from somewhere else.

Q. Where did he come from?

A. From Central Bosnia.

Q. So from Central Bosnia.

A. Yes.

Q. So he was a refugee.

A. Yes.

Q. I just wanted to clarify that what was happening was a result of a large wave of refugees and of events that occurred at that time. Tell me, ¹⁸⁷³⁵ then, you said that some people had to go to the army in order not to lose their jobs. According to my information, regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims, according to a decision issued by the authorities, every citizen had a choice: Either they could join the army or they could accept a work assignment, which meant that he would have to work for a certain number of hours. And this applied to both Serbs and Muslims. Are you aware of this, Mr. 1486?

A. Yes, I'm fully aware of it.

Q. So there was no discrimination in this respect between Serbs and Muslims; isn't that correct, Mr. 1486?

A. Yes. But many Serbs did join the army.

Q. But they also had a choice and many decided not to go into the army but, rather, to accept a work assignment, and everyone followed his own decision; isn't that correct, Mr. 1486?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Thank you very much. Let's proceed. Let's move on. In relation to these events, is it correct that there were various barricades in Bijeljina and the surrounding villages throughout this area and that they were set up by both Serbs and Muslims who were afraid of each other?

A. I have no information as to what was going on outside Janja.

Q. Very well. But the conflict between the Serbs and the neighbouring villages and the inhabitants of Janja, there was never any such conflict; isn't that correct?

A. That's correct. There never was such a conflict.

Q. So your answer is yes, there was never any conflict between the ¹⁸⁷³⁶ Serbs in the surrounding villages and the Muslims in Janja.

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Is it correct that Janja was entirely surrounded by Serbian villages?

A. Yes, that is also correct.

Q. And there was a conflict between the Muslims in Janja and the inhabitants of the surrounding villages.

A. No, there never was.

Q. So the only problem you ever had was the problem with this wave of refugees, when speaking of the kind of people who caused problems for you?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. I'm going to skip a number of questions that I have here because your testimony is being limited to Janja.

You spoke about the mosques.

A. Correct.

Q. According to my information, of the three mosques, two were destroyed.

A. The third mosque that you mention was under construction, and that third mosque was not destroyed.

Q. All right. So of the three, two were destroyed. And that was also done by those people who came into the area, refugees, for some sort of revenge or retaliation because they were bitter about something. I can't go into their reasons. But without a doubt, it wasn't done by the authorities or the inhabitants of the surrounding villages around Janja; isn't that correct? ¹⁸⁷³⁷

A. The destruction of the mosques was carried out at night when the curfew was in force. Now, who destroyed the mosques, I really wouldn't venture to say at this point, whether it was the refugees or the locals. So that was actually done by somebody who knew how to do it, because the surrounding houses were not destroyed as well and they were very close to the mosque, so it was done by professionals.

Q. All right. But do you happen to know that not only the authorities of Serbia but the authorities of Republika Srpska as well on several occasions publicly condemned the desecration of religious sites, mosques, churches, and the like, and publicly called this serious crimes, said that these things were serious crimes. Do you remember that?

A. Well, not much mention was made of that. Perhaps once, quite superficially, just a few words to that effect.

Q. Well, how far this was publicised, I don't know. But do you know whether a single mosque was ever destroyed in Serbia?

A. Well, I haven't got any information about that at this point in time.

Q. You said in your statement - let me just find it - but it's not a long statement, and I'm sure you'll be able to remember this portion of it - that the pound authority was 100 per cent Serb and the people of different ethnic groups were dismissed from their jobs. And you say that doctors had to work, to do menial jobs like cleaning the streets. You said that, didn't you?

A. Yes. They had a work assignment which was to clean the streets and parks and see to the area around these streets as well. ¹⁸⁷³⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁷³⁹

Q. Mr. B-1486, I'm going to read some information out to you and you tell me if it's correct or not. First, none of those doctors were dismissed from their jobs; and second, the work assignment, work obligation, any kind of work assignment, as you know full well, in the former Yugoslavia -- for example, I myself took part in some of them and you probably did too. When a settlement was being put into order, we would all go out and take part in seeing that the settlement and residential area we lived in was nicely kept. It wasn't -- nobody was forced to do so. Directors would do so. Generals would do so. Housewives and children would take part in this general cleaning-up drive in their residential houses and blocks. Is that what you're thinking about? Is that what you have in mind, or do you really mean to say that somebody forced the doctors of Bijeljina to clean the streets?

A. This was forced work. The competent authorities forced people to engage in this work assignment.

Q. Do you know that the competent authorities were not ethnically purely Serb but the competent authorities had members who were Serbs and Muslims alike? Are you aware of that or not?

A. After the events which took place in Bijeljina, there were very few Muslims who stayed on in the authorities.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you know the enormous number of Muslims who were even in the army of Republika Srpska and were commanding officers, held high-ranking positions in that army, they were also directors and managers too. Are you aware of that? Do you know about that? ¹⁸⁷⁴⁰

A. Well, I don't have much information along those lines, but I did hear that in Bijeljina there were certain commanders who assumed command positions in the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, as you say that some respectable people were dismissed from their jobs and doctors, instead of doing their own work, had to clean the streets, I have here several names. For example, Dr. Nedzad Havic, Dr. Senada Gordic Nakicevic, Dr. Nijara Opalic, Dr. Sureta Kadric, Dr. Tikvesa Amra. Throughout the war, the whole time, they were engaged in their job at the Bijeljina hospital. They did their work there. Are you aware of that? Do you know about that? What did you say?

A. The names of those doctors, or rather, lady doctors, are not familiar to me.

Q. And are you familiar with this: That throughout the war, Dr. Hasagic worked all the time. He's a well-respected physician and also Muslim.

A. Yes, that's true. That's correct.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said that's true, yes.

Q. So nobody dismissed him from his job or made him clean streets.

A. Not him, no.

Q. And the names I read out to you, you don't know about them, they don't ring a bell?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned a doctor by the name of Hajrudin Kadric. There was no such doctor in Bijeljina. All the names that I read out who are Muslim ¹⁸⁷⁴¹ and worked throughout the war, you say you don't know those doctors and then you mentioned this Dr. Kadric that doesn't exist. Perhaps there's a person of that name but he never worked at the medical centre in Bijeljina as a doctor. So where did you get that name from? Who told you that?

A. It's a well-known doctor, and he used to work in Janja too. Later on, he worked in Bijeljina.

Q. Well, what happened to him? Was he dismissed from his job?

A. Dismissed, yes.

Q. That's what you claim.

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've had rather more than the Prosecution had. Do you want more time with this witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course, yes, Mr. May, I do indeed because it's quite clear here that we have to clear up what the witness has been saying and claiming. As you can see, I'm asking questions and limiting them to Janja.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider the position. Just one moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Ten minutes more.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what I can do in ten minutes, but --

JUDGE MAY: You can get on with it and ask some more questions. Yes, let's get on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ten minutes is much too short, Mr. May. ¹⁸⁷⁴²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. B-1486, you're not only talking about Janja, then, when you mention this Dr. Hasagic. You have confirmed that nobody dismissed him from his job, that he continued working, and then you go on to speak about Bijeljina and Hajrudin Kadric and you say that somebody dismissed him from his job there. So you're talking about things that weren't going on in Janja, actually; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

[redacted]

A. Yes, I do, and they had a work assignment. They had their own work assignment working in their own workplace.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the last question be redacted. I believe it will provide sufficient information to reveal the identity of the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, then. Now, Bijeljina is the centre here and this won't identify the witness because everybody goes to a department store, what ¹⁸⁷⁴³ I'm going to ask now. I'm going to give you some names of Muslims who worked in the department store throughout. Halida Alic, Senada Pasalic, Fadila Ramic, Hamdija Racevic [phoen], Dzemila Obradovic, and so on and so forth. Do you know that those people worked throughout that time at the department store; they went on working?

A. Up until what date, Mr. Milosevic?

Q. Throughout the war, all the time. In 1991 and 1992 and 1993 and 1994 and 1995. I don't know; all the time. That's what my information tells me, the whole time. Nobody touched them. Did they have a work assignment to work in the department store?

A. Mr. Milosevic, about 200 inhabitants remained in Janja at the end of September 1994 of the more than 10.000 inhabitants that had lived there previously.

Q. I'm not asking you that. An enormous number of inhabitants did relocate, fleeing from the war. Serbia had several hundred thousand refugees from all parts, including 70.000 Muslims from Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. So about that population exodus and movement, I'm not asking you about that. And you say that that happened sometime in 1994. So that's not something I'm addressing here. But what I'm asking you is this: Do you know that the PD of Semberija at Novo Selo, near Bijeljina, that a large number of Muslims lived there? Do you know Alija Omerovic? He was captured, for example, by the opposite side and exchanged and is still living and working there. Alija Dragic is another case in point. Zijad Mekic, do you know him? Sead Tikves, another one, head of the vegetable plant branch. He -- this one was slaughtered by the extremists. Muharem ¹⁸⁷⁴⁴ Risanovic, Rifet Delic, Sadik Dedic. Do any of those names ring a bell? Neda Pesavic [phoen]? He had a Ph.D. in agriculture and was one of the managers there. Alija Pahatic [phoen]?

JUDGE MAY: There's no way the witness can answer all this -- a long list. Now, you can ask -- ask one question and make it simple.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What I'm asking you is, in general terms, do you know anything about these people, the people who worked there and lived there, and who, as you can see, had problems with the other side? Do you know anything about that and about them?

A. No, I don't know anything about that and I'm not aware of it.

Q. Do you know, for example, that Pasaga Halilovic was the general manager of the company called Duvan?

A. Yes, he was. And he was also one of the commanders in the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Well, do you think he was forced to be the general manager and one of the commanders?

A. Well, for him to be a general manager, he would have had to have been in the Army of Republika Srpska as well.

Q. Well, he was the general manager there before and now and he was not in the Republika Srpska Army.

A. But he was during the war.

Q. Well, that bears out what I'm saying. But let's not move on further from here. Tell me this, please, just to clarify one more point: You mentioned a man named Vojkan. ¹⁸⁷⁴⁵

A. Right. Correct.

Q. And this man was in charge of the exchanges. I'm now going to ask you to give me a very detailed and specific answer as to whether my piece of information on the subject is correct. This is it: According to my piece of information, this is what it was about: It was Vojkan Djurkovic, the man in question - he was a criminal, in fact - from the village of Velino Selo, near Bijeljina. And according to my data, he went about looting and took people off, and he was arrested on several occasions because of that and criminal reports were filed against him, charges were brought against him. According to what it says here, my information, he would represent himself falsely as being a member of some kind of exchange commission, which wasn't true. There was a regular exchange commission in Bijeljina at that time, and the head of that commission was Major Ljubo Mitrovic, whereas this other one, the one you mention --

JUDGE MAY: That's enough for the witness -- for the witness to be able to answer.

B-1486, can you help as to this Vojkan? What's suggested is that he was a criminal and he went around looting and representing himself as a member of the exchange commission. Can you help as to whether that's right or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally know that Vojkan organised convoys for the population to leave Janja and go to Tuzla, for their displacement from Janja to Tuzla.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. What about this other piece of information that I have ¹⁸⁷⁴⁶ received and people guarantee that this is true: Do you know that in respect of the exchanges, Major Ljubo Mitrovic was in charge in Janja throughout the whole time? He was the official commission. No Vojkan existed in any position of authority.

A. The population of Janja didn't go up for an exchange. It undertook to leave the area.

Q. Who forced you to leave?

A. Before Janja -- before the exodus of Janja took place, there was a number of cases during the night when the population of Janja were taken off, their houses stormed, and the inhabitants taken off during the night. Whole families, in fact, would be taken away. And then this was a way of intimidating the population and instilling fear.

Q. Well, yes, fear was quite certainly a motive for leaving areas; fear of war and war operations, fear of criminals, refugees, and so on. Fear is always a motive, but that is the case with all refugees, regardless of their ethnic group; isn't that so, Mr. B-1486?

A. Yes, that is true, but you must understand one thing: There were no war operations in Janja, and everything was taken away from us and we had no means of livelihood after that.

Q. Did anybody force you to leave Janja? Did anybody read out an order of any kind to you which said you, the Muslims -- this is a Muslim village, as we have established. 99 per cent of it were Muslims. Did anybody say you now have to leave your village and go? Did any person in authority ever take any measures to force you to leave Janja? Did you have to leave Janja under duress? ¹⁸⁷⁴⁷

Q. Nobody coerced us in any way, but the population of Janja had had all their property taken away from them and so they had to leave because of the psychological pressure exerted upon them. They had to leave their place of residence.

Q. All right. They left their town because of the psychological pressure. Now, what was the pressure that made them leave their homes, those who fled from Central Bosnia to take up residence in Janja? Did they leave because of similar pressure being exerted upon them? Are you aware of the fact that it was a civil war, in fact, and that everybody suffered, all three ethnic groups, ethnic communities suffered and all the citizens and inhabitants were suffering, regardless of their ethnic affiliation? Are you aware of that?

A. I don't know who had to leave, under what kind of pressure, who had to leave their homes and houses, but I know personally why I myself left my home town.

Q. All right. You've explained that to us. Now, does the name Ibro Huremovic seem familiar to you, nicknamed Ibrica?

A. Yes, I know that name very well.

Q. Well, he is said to have made a great contribution to mutual cooperation and trust and confidence. He is a highly respected Muslim. He was highly esteemed, and he made great contributions to avoid all the tensions, or rather, to reduce tensions as far as was possible and to have people live calmly and normally. At least, the Serb side has that to say about him. I don't know whether you share that opinion of him or not.

A. Yes, that is quite correct. What you have said is correct. ¹⁸⁷⁴⁸

Q. Is he living in Janja today too?

A. Yes, he is, he is living in Janja today.

Q. And nobody expelled him?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must now bring your questions to an end. We'll hear one more question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to select one. I did have a large number of questions for this witness, Mr. May. So this is a limiting factor. The other side over there never uses the amount of time that it says it will be using.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Tell me just this, then, please: As we have established what was going on between the Serbs and Muslims, you claim on page 3 of your statement that you were not allowed to travel and that the furthest you could go was to Bijeljina. Did you personally, you yourself, ever have any restrictions in travelling to Bijeljina, in just going to Bijeljina?

A. I didn't have any need to travel further than that.

Q. What I was asking you was were there any restrictions in you personally travelling? Because you said that in general terms sometimes restrictions were imposed, whereas my information says that there were no restrictions at all. Now, you yourself - you're speaking about yourself personally - did you have any difficulty, any restrictions at all imposed upon you?

A. I could travel with special permits or passes issued by the Serb authorities. ¹⁸⁷⁴⁹

Q. All right. My information tells me that there were no special permits or passes, that people were allowed to move around freely. Is that correct or not?

A. The military department in Bijeljina did issue special passes or permits for the movement of Serbs and Muslims as well.

Q. So it was the military department, was it?

JUDGE MAY: We have the answer. Yes, Mr. Kay.

Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. Witness, you told us that Arkan addressed the people of Janja. And is it right to say that he told you that there was a new authority in the area?

A. Yes. He said that from then on the so-called Serbian authorities would be in charge in Bijeljina.

Q. And did he give that a name as being Republika Srpska?

A. I don't think he did.

Q. From that time, did the police start to wear new insignia on their uniform, showing "Republika Srpska"?

A. Two or three days later, the police started wearing the new insignia, which they still wear today.

Q. And in that time, did you see soldiers also wearing the insignia of Republika Srpska?

A. No, I didn't see soldiers at that time.

Q. I'm just -- I'm just looking at your statement here that says, "From time to time, Serb soldiers wearing the insignia of the Army of the ¹⁸⁷⁵⁰ Republika Srpska would come to Janja."

A. Yes. Yes, that did happen. But starting in June or July 1992, from then on.

Q. And when you've referred to the Serbs and the Serb authorities from then on, by that you mean Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. In that period the territory bore the correct name of the SAO Semberija and Majevica.

MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was about to put a last question which did not relate to anything to do with the previous question, and it's very brief.

JUDGE MAY: No. We gave you ten minutes more. You'd had half an hour. So you had more than -- a third more than the Prosecution. It's more than sufficient.

Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution is going to withdraw the video and not -- and produce it perhaps with another witness, given the technical problems.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. GROOME: But I do have a few questions to ask the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Well, if you could do so briefly, and then we should have the adjournment. ¹⁸⁷⁵¹ Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Witness B-1486, Mr. Milosevic has characterised this Vojkan as a well-known criminal who committed many crimes against the population of Janja and Bijeljina. To your knowledge, was there ever any sincere attempt by the local police to impede the activity of Vojkan or to prevent him from committing crimes against the population?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. May.

THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic has not switched on his microphone.

JUDGE MAY: We can't hear it because you haven't put your microphone on. If you put it on, we'll listen to it. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I say I have an objection because the question is not well put. I did not say only that he was a criminal, I said that he was a criminal who had been arrested on several occasions by the authorities in Bijeljina. An arrested criminal. That was my question.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, the witness can deal with it. What he's asked is: Do you -- perhaps you could deal with this, Witness. You were asked if, to your knowledge, Vojkan was ever arrested or anything of that sort.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no special information about Vojkan. All I know personally is that he organised convoys, provided security for the vehicles, and escorted the population from Janja to Ban Brdo.

MR. GROOME: ¹⁸⁷⁵² ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁷⁵³

Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you were presented with a -- a written order or a piece of paper directing you to leave Janja. My question to you is: The population of Janja or the people that you knew in Janja, was part of the property that was taken from them implements and tools and necessary equipment that was essential for them to earn a living, to support themselves in Janja?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the reply.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. All the farm machinery was confiscated. All the housing was confiscated. Everything was taken from the farming population.

MR. GROOME:

Q. With respect to employment, can you estimate for the Chamber what population -- or what was the impact of the events of April 1992 on the ability of Muslim men and women to have -- to gain employment in Janja at that time?

A. A small part of the population in Janja held jobs. This was an agricultural area. Most of the people worked in towns, in Bijeljina or outside Bijeljina. And of course because their movements were restricted in this period and also because they were afraid to go to other towns, the population lost their jobs.

Q. You agreed with the statement by Mr. Milosevic that many of the crimes committed against the Muslim population of Janja were in fact committed by an influx of Serb refugees into the area. My question to you is: Do you have any personal knowledge or were you aware of any attempts by the local police to protect the property interest of local Muslims who ¹⁸⁷⁵⁴ remained after the takeover?

A. In that period, the police did practically nothing to protect the local Muslim population.

Q. Sir, my final question to you is: You said that the population of Janja -- or I think your exact phrase was the inhabitants of Janja was reduced from 10.000 to 200, but you did not specify the ethnicity. Can you tell us, what ethnicity were you referring to for this group of 9.800 people that left Janja?

A. From late September 1994 until the end of war operations, about 200 Muslims remained in Janja.

Q. And that's out of the original population of 10.000; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a question in connection with this question.

JUDGE MAY: No. You've -- you've had your chance to cross-examine. In fact, the witness gave that evidence rather earlier. Witness -- no, we can't go on with constant re-examination -- further cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Doesn't it seem to you, Mr. May, that the witness should answer the question of what happened with those 9.000 after the war; did they go back to Janja, were they killed somewhere? What happened to them after Dayton? What happened to those ¹⁸⁷⁵⁵ 9.000?

JUDGE MAY: You can ask the witness that. Let us ask the witness. I will ask him.

Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE MAY: You were asked about the 9.000. You heard what Mr. Milosevic said, Witness B-1486. Can you deal with what happened to the 9.000 of the population?

A. About 4.000 in 1994 were practically moved to Tuzla and the surrounding area. Over 1.000 inhabitants remained in Majevica in camps and -- performing work obligation. And the remainder, through various channels, went to other countries via Serbia.

JUDGE MAY: And what happened after Dayton? Can you tell us? Did any of them go back?

A. About 80 per cent of the population of Janja have now returned to their homes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness B-1486, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for making yourself available to give it to the Tribunal. You are now free to go.

We will adjourn --

[The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I heard Mr. Groome say at the beginning that he will not keep to the order of witnesses that was ¹⁸⁷⁵⁶ announced. He mentioned a witness. I have not managed to remember now. We don't know who the next witness will be. Who is the next witness? May I know, at least, before the break who the witness will be?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. We'll ask Mr. Groome that. B-104; is that right?

MR. GROOME: It's B-1493. The witness that was scheduled for Thursday will be accelerated to tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: But who's the next witness, is the question.

MR. GROOME: The witness is B-104, Your Honour. That schedule has not changed.

JUDGE MAY: B-104 now. And then after him?

MR. GROOME: Will be B-1493.

JUDGE MAY: And then I think you said Mr. Torkildsen.

MR. GROOME: Mr. Torkildsen then. Your Honour, I am informed by Ms. Wee that there's a new witness schedule that will be distributed at the break.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-104

[Witness testified via videolink]

[Witness answered through interpreter] ¹⁸⁷⁵⁷

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to sit down.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I ask that we go briefly into private session so the pseudonym sheet can be placed on the overhead projector. I'm informed that's the only way to keep it confidential.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. GROOME: ¹⁸⁷⁵⁸

Q. Witness B-104, in order to facilitate and hasten your testimony here today, were you asked to -- with a member of the OTP staff, to write a chart indicating or summarising your educational background, as well as your professional experience?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the registry personnel on site please show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 2.

Q. And my question is: Is this a summary of your educational and professional background?

A. Yes.

Q. That your writing at the bottom of that document?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to begin by asking you: Were you a member of the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. Yes.

Q. And was there a time that you were assigned in Nis, Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you attached to the air force brigade in Nis?

A. Yes.

Q. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber briefly what individual units together made up the air force brigade in Nis.

A. It consisted of anti-armour helicopter, a unit in Kraljevo, a helicopter transport unit in Nis, and -- excuse me, in Kraljevo, there was an anti-armour and a transport in -- and in Nis, and there was also a reconnaissance unit. ¹⁸⁷⁵⁹

Q. What time of aircraft was used in the unit that was responsible for reconnaissance?

A. Gazelle helicopters.

Q. Were you assigned to one of these units?

A. Yes.

Q. Which unit?

A. I was in the unit in Nis, the Reconnaissance and Transport Unit, and I flew Gazelle helicopters.

Q. What was the name of that unit?

A. As far as I remember --

THE INTERPRETER: We have lost the sound.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Can you please repeat your answer. We lost your answer.

A. This unit, as far as I can recall, was called the 712th Anti-armour Helicopter Squadron.

Q. Was it known by another name as well?

A. It was also known as the Skorpions.

Q. What were your duties and responsibilities with the 712th helicopter unit?

A. I flew as a technician. I worked on maintaining the helicopters. That was my basic assignment in these units.

Q. And can you tell us who was your superior officer when you were in the 712th helicopter unit.

A. My first superior officer was the commander of the squadron, and his name was Miodrag Petricevic [phoen]. ¹⁸⁷⁶⁰

Q. Now, can you in a sentence or two just summarise for the Chamber the procedure that was followed when you were paid as a member of this unit.

A. When I received per diem for my work, I had to sign a document with the date, the amount, and my signature had to be affixed to that document.

Q. I'm going to ask that the registry personnel on site show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 3.

Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this document and ask you: Do you recognise this as being a document similar to the document you signed?

A. Yes.

Q. And so the record is clear, you do not recognise any of the particular names on tab 3 that's before you now; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, B-104, I'd like to draw your attention to the winter and spring of 1993, and I want to ask you: Were you assigned as part of your official duties to go to a place called Bajina Basta?

A. Yes.

Q. I will ask you to refer to a map at the conclusion of your testimony, but could I ask you at this stage just to orient the Chamber regarding where, generally speaking, Bajina Basta is.

A. This is a place in Serbia near the border with the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, by the River Drina.

Q. If one were to cross the Drina and enter Bosnia, what part of Bosnia would one be in? ¹⁸⁷⁶¹

A. The place was called Skelani. That's the first town on the Bosnian side.

Q. And do you know what municipality Skelani is in?

A. I believe it was part of the municipality of Srebrenica, but I'm sure.

Q. Can you summarise for the Chamber what it was you were called to do in Bajina Basta.

A. The first time I went to Bajina Basta, it was to transport a wounded soldier from the parachute brigade in Nis. He had been wounded in the operations around Srebrenica. I was to transport him to the military hospital in Belgrade.

Q. And can you summarise for us what you did on subsequent occasions in Bajina Basta.

A. On subsequent occasions when I went to Bajina Basta, I transported some sort of materiel. I can't remember exactly what. Then it was to reconnoitre and things like that.

Q. Did you come to learn that during that period there was an operation being organised out of Bajina Basta?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you come to learn who it was that was in charge of that operation?

A. From what people were saying and talking with people who were there in Bajina Basta, the person in charge was Mr. Franko or Frenki, which was his nickname.

Q. Do you know his last name? ¹⁸⁷⁶²

A. As far as I remember, it was Mr. Simatovic.

Q. And the operation, in what geographic location was the operation primarily being deployed?

A. The operation was being deployed in the location around Srebrenica, which means between Bajina Basta and Srebrenica.

Q. Now, were there two locations in Bajina Basta of significance for your testimony here today?

A. Yes.

Q. Before I ask you specific questions about those locations, can you just briefly tell us or identify each of the two locations.

A. They were locations -- first of all, there was the hotel, which is where they were accommodated, where they slept and spent time. And the other place was a house which was a kind of mini command centre.

Q. Now, you've identified yourself as being a member of the 712th helicopter unit. During the times that you were in Bajina Basta, were there other members of the 712th helicopter unit also present?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there other members of the Yugoslav People's Army or the Army of Yugoslavia, as it was known at this time, present in Bajina Basta, also participating in this operation?

A. Yes.

Q. Again, before I ask you specific questions about each of those units, would you please at this stage simply identify the names of the different units.

A. The units of the Army of Yugoslavia who were in those areas and ¹⁸⁷⁶³ took part in the operations were my own unit, the unit of which I was a member, the helicopter unit; then there was the parachute brigade from Nis; and there is also the guards brigade from Belgrade. All these were parts of units, not an entire unit.

Q. Let me ask you about the parachute brigade. Do you know the full formal name of that parachute brigade?

A. It was the 63rd Parachute Brigade.

Q. And the guards brigade that you referred to, can you tell us, if you know, the full formal name of that brigade -- that brigade and from where that brigade originated.

A. Would you repeat that, please. I didn't hear the question.

Q. You've mentioned a portion of a unit of the guards brigade was also present. My question to you is: Can you tell us the full formal name of that guards brigade and tell us where they were based, if you know.

A. That was the 72nd Guards Brigade, and they were located in Belgrade.

Q. Now, in addition to these members of the Yugoslav army, were there members of other armed groups that you saw in Bajina Basta, also participating in this operation?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please identify them for us at this stage.

A. They were members of the police from the Republic of Serbia. Then there were also members of the so-called Wolves from the Drina. That was the name of the unit. ¹⁸⁷⁶⁴

Q. I want to draw your attention once again to the hotel. Can you please describe where the hotel was located in the town and for what purpose it was used.

A. The hotel was located in the centre of town itself, and it was used, as I've already said, to accommodate people during the day and night.

Q. During the times you were in Bajina Basta, can you estimate for us to what capacity was the hotel? Was it fully filled, half-filled; can you please estimate that for us?

A. While I was in Basta, the hotel was more or less full, full of the people who took part in these operations.

Q. And can you approximate for us the number of people that would be in the hotel when it was full?

A. Well, the number would be about 100 people. I never counted them, so I can't say exactly.

Q. Now, the people that you saw in this hotel, were they dressed in civilian clothes or were they dressed in uniforms?

A. All of them were dressed in uniforms.

Q. I'm going to ask you to now describe the different uniforms that you saw there, and I'm going to ask you to describe them as the first uniform, the second uniform, so it's clear to us what parts of the uniform belonged to which individual uniform. So would you please describe for us what uniforms you observed -- what you remember about the uniforms that you observed there.

A. Well, it was like this: One of the uniforms that I saw around was ¹⁸⁷⁶⁵ the type that I wore, which was a camouflage uniform of the Army of Yugoslavia. Then the next type of uniform that could be seen there was a camouflage uniform, the type of uniform that the police wore of the Republic of Serbia. Then there were black uniforms, worn by certain members of the Wolves from the Drina. And then there were some other ones which were olive-green, olive-drab uniforms, also worn by these Wolves from the Drina.

Q. Now, you've mentioned two different types of camouflage uniform, one like the one you wore and one like one worn by the police. Can you give us a little bit more detail to help distinguish between those two camouflage uniforms.

A. The uniform that I myself wore was predominantly grey or olive-green, a greeny-grey colour, whereas the other uniform worn by the policemen and people who were there was predominantly blue.

Q. In addition to these uniforms, did any members or any of the people there wear insignias that you can recall?

A. In addition to the uniforms, they wore insignia, the Drina Wolves insignia patches, and also those of Republika Srpska.

Q. I'm going to ask that you look at the monitor before you, and there will be an exhibit displayed for you, and that is Exhibit 349.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, when we originally were scheduled to have this witness testify, the register -- the registry had reserved tab 7 for this particular patch. So perhaps that would assist the Chamber.

Q. I would ask you to take a look at the monitor before you and ask you, do you recognise the patch that you see before you? ¹⁸⁷⁶⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁷⁶⁷

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell us what you recognise it to be.

A. This is the patch worn by members of the unit called Wolves from the Drina, or Drina Wolves.

Q. Now, during your time in Bajina Basta, did you have an opportunity to speak with many of the men that were there in uniform?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to identify their place of origin by their accents?

A. Well, in principle, yes.

Q. Can you tell us what, if any, locations you were able to identify by the accent of the people that you spoke with.

A. Judging by their accent, I concluded that they were from Serbia, Montenegro, and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Can you please describe the context in which you saw these men at the hotel. Can you describe the types of things you would see them doing.

A. Those people were dressed in uniforms. Just like me, they had probably come there to work on certain assignments in the area.

Q. And did you see anything which led you to believe that they were actively engaged in carrying out assignments as opposed to being there for recreational purposes?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe what your observations were.

A. Well, I observed that they would change frequently. Some would go; others would come in. And also when they returned, when they came back from the field, they would be very tired and dirty looking. So this ¹⁸⁷⁶⁸ led me to conclude that they had been in the field and were engaged in war operations.

Q. Did you come to learn where it was, generally speaking, that they were engaged in war operations?

A. Generally speaking, they were engaged in war operations in the territory of Bosnia.

Q. Now, the other location you mentioned that was of significance was a place you referred to as a mini command centre. Again, I would ask you to describe where was this located in the town and describe it in a bit more detail.

A. It was in the centre of town. It was a house. As far as I remember, it had an upper storey. Inside there was a sort of office, a quite large office, with some maps in it and radio communications devices, that kind of thing.

Q. How many times were you on the inside of this command post?

A. Well, two or three times.

Q. While you were in Bajina Basta, were there -- or did you see vehicles there that you believed were being used in part for this operation?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe those vehicles and where they were customarily parked.

A. The vehicles were white jeeps, of the Defender type, and they were usually parked in front of the hotel or in front of the mini command centre, so-called. ¹⁸⁷⁶⁹

Q. You said that you were inside the mini command centre two or three times. Can I ask you to tell us about the first time you were in that command centre.

A. The first time I went to that mini command centre I went because I had -- needed somewhere to spend the night in Bajina Basta, in a hotel, and I met a girl there and they said that she was Mr. Frenki's secretary. And she phoned Mr. Frenki up to ask him whether I could spend the night in the hotel.

Q. Can I ask you to describe her physical appearance as best you can recall.

A. She was a young woman with long black hair. She wore a uniform.

Q. Did it appear to you in this command centre that she had her own designated work area?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the purpose of your first -- I withdraw that. You said that the purpose of your first trip to Bajina Basta was to do a medevac. Can you tell us a little bit more detail about how you received that assignment and where precisely you were to airlift the injured soldier from.

A. I was given the assignment in Nis, and we set out, I myself and the pilot, and then the commander of the parachute brigade of Nis and an officer who, as I was told, was an officer for intelligence work in the parachute brigade. So we left for Bajina Basta. We dropped down at the stadium of Bajina Basta. And the two officers were with us. They went to collect the injured person, and they stayed overnight up there too. I had ¹⁸⁷⁷⁰ to go to the hotel and consult my colleagues, who were staying in the hotel, as to where I was going to spend the night. The next day they came back, and they weren't able to carry out their assignment because of the bad weather conditions. The wounded man was transported in a car.

Q. Was the original intention to evacuate this injured soldier by helicopter?

A. Yes.

Q. And where precisely was this injured soldier to be -- to be airlifted from?

A. He was supposed to be airlifted from the hill or, rather, mountain, I don't know which it is, but the name was Osmace. But we weren't able to land on that hill, so he had to be evacuated by car to Bajina Basta and from there transported to Belgrade by us.

Q. And the location where he was to be evacuated from, in what republic was that?

A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Were you informed that this member of the Yugoslav army, of the 63rd Parachute Brigade, had been injured in an official capacity in Bosnia?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you in Bajina Basta on this first trip to that area?

A. Roughly about a week. Five, six, or seven days. I don't remember exactly.

Q. Did you make subsequent trips to Bajina Basta? ¹⁸⁷⁷¹

A. Yes.

Q. On some of those subsequent trips, did you actually see a person you came to know as Frenki Simatovic there?

A. Yes.

Q. You've mentioned members from three units of the Yugoslav army. During your time there, did you form an opinion regarding their relationship to that of Frenki Simatovic?

A. In a way, Frenki was the superior to all of us over there.

Q. Can you please tell us specifically what it was you observed or heard that led you to that conclusion.

A. In principle, Frenki would issue the orders and people would salute Frenki in a way when he was giving out orders.

Q. Did you yourself personally observe Frenki issuing instructions or orders to the members of the Yugoslav army?

A. Well, not personally. I didn't notice him issue orders personally to members of the Army of Yugoslavia. There was always someone there who was higher up, a high-ranking officer who would communicate with the soldiers.

Q. When you were there, did you ever personally see members of the Yugoslav army salute Frenki Simatovic as they would salute a superior in their own ranks?

A. No, I did not.

Q. With respect to the other units that you mentioned, police units from the Republika Srpska, and the Drina Wolves, did you form an opinion regarding Frenki Simatovic and those units? ¹⁸⁷⁷²

A. You mean with respect to those units. Mr. Frenki's relationship was superior, and I did notice them saluting him.

Q. And did you ever hear him -- were you ever present when he issued a direct order to a member of those units?

A. On a couple of occasions, yes.

Q. During the time that you were present in Bajina Basta, did you consider Frenki Simatovic to be a superior to you?

A. In a way, yes. But not -- but generally speaking, no.

Q. When you say "in a way, yes," can you please describe what you mean by that answer.

A. Well, what I mean is that Frenki was in charge of everything going on in Bajina Basta. And in view of the fact that he was in charge of that entire operation, we were a unit which came under his command. However, as I've already explained to you, there was always a commanding officer with us who was in charge of communication between Mr. Frenki and the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. If Frenki Simatovic wanted to deploy your helicopter unit in a particular way, can you describe for us the procedure that would be followed.

A. Frenki would usually talk to us about the ways and means in which the unit could be deployed, what a helicopter can do. And then he would reach an agreement and the officer who was there would issue orders to us.

Q. The officer that you're referring to as directly issuing the order to you, was he a member of the Yugoslav army?

A. Yes. ¹⁸⁷⁷³

Q. And was it the same person throughout the times -- or the different times that you went to Bajina Basta?

A. Those people would change from time to time. It wasn't always the same person, one and the same man.

Q. Was there ever a time that this officer was not present and orders were communicated to your helicopter unit by another means?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe.

A. On a couple of occasions people would relay -- people that we recognised there would relay orders to us. And it was a local man, usually, from whom we would be given instructions as to what we were supposed to do.

Q. This local man, did you come to learn his name?

A. Yes. I remember his nickname, and his nickname was Max.

Q. Was he ever in the company of an assistant?

A. Very often.

Q. And if you can, please tell us the name of that assistant.

A. His name was Nedjo.

Q. Now, this person that you've referred to as Max, was he a member or could you identify to us whether he was a member of one of the units that you've described for us.

A. He was a member of the Drina Wolves unit.

Q. And during your time there, did you ever make any observations regarding how he interacted with Frenki Simatovic?

A. I noticed that his relationship with Frenki was such that Frenki ¹⁸⁷⁷⁴ was his superior.

Q. And can you please tell us the precise observations you made that led you to that conclusion.

A. I noted in concrete terms that Frenki was issuing orders to him and that he saluted Frenki.

Q. Now, the uniform that you wore when you arrived in Bajina Basta, did it ordinarily or did it in fact have emblems and insignias which would identify you as a member of the Yugoslav army?

A. Yes, it did have insignia on it.

Q. Were you ever given an instruction with respect to the insignias and emblems that would identify you as a member of the Yugoslav army?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you please describe the circumstances regarding that instruction.

A. When I arrived in Bajina Basta, this gentleman, the man whose nickname was Max, would say to me or tell us to take off the insignia of the Yugoslav army and that the flag of Republika Srpska -- or if he told us to put them on, or the Drina Wolves insignia, we were supposed to do that.

Q. Were you ever informed about the purpose behind switching identifying emblems?

A. Nobody told us exactly, but I concluded that the purpose of the switching of insignia was to conceal the fact that the Army of Yugoslavia was participating in these operations.

Q. Now, when you returned from this first trip, your first visit to ¹⁸⁷⁷⁵ Bajina Basta, were you able to take -- return in your helicopter?

A. No.

Q. Did there come a time when you returned to Nis and were -- you were given an instruction regarding insignias on the helicopter?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please tell us what instruction you were given with respect to the insignias on the helicopter.

A. With respect to the insignia on the helicopter, my colleagues and I were instructed to take the helicopters to the workshop where the insignia of the Army of Yugoslavia would be removed from them.

Q. Was there anything else that could identify the helicopter removed from it?

A. The large numbers of the helicopters were removed and small numbers were placed there instead, numbers that could not be seen from the ground when the helicopter was up in the air, and a small round flag was put on the -- on the back part of the helicopter.

Q. And can you please describe the small round flag that was put on the back of the helicopter.

A. The small round flag was the flag of Yugoslavia but without the five-pointed star.

Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about some of the specific units that you've referred to in your testimony here today. The first unit I would like to deal with is the 63rd Parachute Brigade. Is it true that you saw members of that brigade in Bajina Basta?

A. Yes. ¹⁸⁷⁷⁶

Q. Can you describe for the Chamber to the extent you're able what kind of operations and what kind of training did members of the 63rd Parachute Brigade have?

A. The 63rd Parachute Brigade went through a special kind of training, as did all parachute units everywhere in the world.

Q. Did they receive any other specialised training, to your knowledge, aside from parachute training?

A. In the description of their training, there were various kinds of training, such as jumping out of a plane, jumping out of a helicopter, warfare under impossible conditions, impossible for ordinary units of the army.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that we go into private session for a few minutes.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MR. GROOME:

Q. The next unit I would like to draw your attention to are the Drina Wolves. Did you ever have a conversation with the two people you've identified as Max and Nedjo with respect to who it was that was their superior?

A. Yes. I did have conversations with them.

Q. And who did they tell you was their superior?

A. They said Mr. Frenki was their superior. ¹⁸⁷⁷⁹

Q. In your conversations with them, did they describe for you or tell you the original name of their unit, what it was called before they were known as the Drina Wolves?

A. They told me that they were referred to as Knindze.

Q. Do you recall the names of other members of this unit?

A. No, I can't recall their names at the moment.

Q. Were there people of that unit that appeared to you to have some type of rank or supervisory capacity over other men in the unit?

A. In principle, there were no ranks. But you could notice there were individuals who had certain assignments. You could see that by the way they treated others, others whose assignments were more ordinary.

Q. Can you tell us the names of some of those individuals?

A. As far as I can remember, there was a gentleman there called Njegos. Then I remember there was a gentleman they called Rajo Bozovic.

Q. Njegos, did you learn what area of responsibility he had?

A. As far as I could see, Njegos was in charge of a unit that was stationed in a hotel at Mount Tara.

Q. Now, Mr. Rajo Bozovic, can you describe for us how frequently you would see him.

A. Every time he came to Bajina Basta I would see him.

Q. And under what circumstances would you see him?

A. I would see him in uniform, which meant that he was doing something there.

Q. Based on your observations, did you form an impression regarding his relationship to that of the other men of the Drina Wolves? ¹⁸⁷⁸⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁷⁸¹

A. I saw that in a way he was superior to the others.

Q. And can you describe for us your specific observations that led you to that conclusion.

A. Specifically, I know that they respected him and they said he was in charge of parts of those units.

Q. Did there come a time when you came to learn that there was a group of prisoners also incorporated into that unit of the Drina Wolves?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe how it was you learnt that information.

A. There was a gentleman there whom they called Pacov, which means "rat," as far as I could remember. And when we were sitting in the hotel, people told me that he had been in prison in Kosovo and that Mr. Frenki got him out of Kosovo.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Frenki's secretary regarding prisoners present in Bajina Basta?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please summarise that for us.

A. This was in fact on that occasion when this girl told me that the man had been in prison in Kosovo.

Q. Now, one of the other units that you've described for us here today is the -- I believe you said the 72nd Guards Brigade from Belgrade. Can you tell us a bit more about that unit.

A. According to my personal knowledge, this was a special purpose unit and I think it was established primarily for providing security for Tito while he was still alive. They were Tito's escort or bodyguard. ¹⁸⁷⁸²

Q. Approximately how many men from this unit did you have occasion to see in Bajina Basta?

A. I can't recall the exact number, but I saw members of that unit there.

Q. In addition to the units that you've described here today, were there other helicopters that you saw in Bajina Basta, and if so, did you learn from where they came?

A. There were other helicopters there. They were MI-8 helicopters, and they were at Mount Tara. They came from Nis.

Q. Any other aircraft that you can recall?

A. I didn't see any other aircraft. There were Gazelle helicopters and MI-8 helicopters.

Q. Without going to -- into the detail in open session, did you during one of your trips to Bajina Basta fly a mission into Bosnia, into the municipality of Bratunac?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that we go into private session for the next few questions.

[Private session]

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MR. GROOME: I'd ask that tab 4 of Prosecution Exhibit 424 be placed on the overhead projector.

Q. B-104, you have a copy of this exhibit there with you on site. I would ask you to describe --

A. I didn't hear your question.

Q. I'm placing Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 4, on a projector so that those of us in the courtroom can see it. I would ask that the registry personnel down there show you a copy of the same exhibit. And when you have had an opportunity to look at it, can you tell us, do you recognise what it is? ¹⁸⁷⁸⁶

THE REGISTRAR: [No microphone]

MR. GROOME: And I would ask that it be placed on the overhead projector down on site. And if possible, to zoom out. If we could zoom out some more, please. Just a bit more.

Q. Sir, do you recognise this particular map?

A. Yes.

Q. And the markings on this map, who made them?

A. I did.

Q. And is that your handwriting on the upper left corner of the map?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you indicate some of the locations you've testified about here today?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you to use a pencil or a pointer and just point to the different markings you made and identify them to the Chamber.

A. This is Bajina Basta. This is Skelani, Bratunac, Osmace.

Q. Can I ask you to hold the pointer on Osmace for a minute. Please go to the next mark.

A. Zeleni Jadar.

Q. I'd ask you now just to help orient the Chamber, would you please trace the border between Republic of Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. The border runs through this part here.

JUDGE KWON: Is Zeleni Jadar the name of a river?

MR. GROOME:

Q. Judge Kwon has asked you whether Zeleni Jadar is the name of a ¹⁸⁷⁸⁷ river or a location. Can you please answer that.

A. It's a place, a hill.

JUDGE KWON: If you look at the page 33 of Exhibit 336, top right corner, Zeleni Jadar looks like the name of a river or name of a hill. Yes?

MR. GROOME: The witness is saying hill, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm not familiar myself enough with the geography.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. GROOME:

Q. During the times that you went to Bajina Basta, did you become aware of other units or other helicopter units also going into Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. Yes.

Q. And would you speak with these men regarding what they were doing in Bosnia?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was it that they told you that they were doing in Bosnia?

A. Well, they were doing the same thing I was doing. The helicopter units were -- had the same purpose as my own.

Q. In addition to the missions that you've already described, did you on other occasions transport Frenki Simatovic between Belgrade and Bajina Basta?

A. I flew him from Bajina Basta to Belgrade and back.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have between five and ten minutes more ¹⁸⁷⁸⁸ of questions. I don't know when the Court is intending on breaking.

JUDGE MAY: You may as well continue until the end, and then we'll break.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Can you please describe the circumstances under which you transported Frenki Simatovic between Belgrade and Bajina Basta.

A. I transported him just as I would any other passenger.

Q. Was --

A. From Belgrade to Bajina Basta -- or rather, from Bajina Basta to Belgrade and back.

Q. Was it part of your official duties to transport members of the armed services in your helicopter?

A. Yes.

Q. Where would you pick up Frenki Simatovic in Belgrade?

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Banjica. That is a place close to Belgrade. Or rather, it's in town.

MR. GROOME:

Q. On one occasion, did you become aware of a mission of several helicopters that were being sent to the Visegrad area of Bosnia?

A. I learnt about an assignment, a mission that the helicopters were supposed to carry out.

Q. And where was that mission to take place?

A. It was supposed to take place in the vicinity of Visegrad, near the dam there. ¹⁸⁷⁸⁹

Q. And when was that?

A. I don't remember exactly.

Q. Did there come a time when you had an informal meeting with Frenki Simatovic during which the capabilities of your aircraft were discussed?

A. Yes.

Q. Without telling us who was present for the moment, can you please summarise what Frenki Simatovic inquired of you and the other people at that meeting.

A. He wanted to know of the characteristic features of my helicopter, what the helicopter could carry, how much weight it could carry, whether it could carry machine-guns or not, rifles, whether the helicopter could be shot from. Those were the kinds of questions he asked.

MR. GROOME: I ask that we go into private session for the next series of questions.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, my final question for you today is: All of the activities that you've described for us, that you were involved in in Bajina Basta, did you consider those to be part of your official duties as a member of the Yugoslav army or did you consider those to be outside of your official ¹⁸⁷⁹¹ duties?

A. I considered them to be my official duties.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. Witness B-104, in this adjournment and any others there may be during the course of this case, don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over and don't let anybody speak to you about it. We'll continue your evidence in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.

--- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 104, I would like to establish first of all what your profession is.

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

[Private session]

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[Open session] ¹⁸⁸⁰²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So have we cleared this point up properly as to what it said in your statement, that your group's assignment was to occupy towns, take control of towns? Your answer was that that was not what you stated and that you don't know how this came to be contained in the statement. That's right, isn't it?

A. I said that I didn't say that it was my task to occupy any part of town or towns themselves.

Q. And in the next paragraph, the first paragraph on page 4, you go on to say that your group did not take part in a single armed military operation, is that right, upon your arrival in Mostar; right? "My unit was never part of any armed military action."

A. In view of the fact that I lived in Mostar, my unit took part in the transportation and reconnaissance work.

Q. But your unit, as far as I understood it, did not take part in any military operations, combat operations. Right?

A. My unit in that part of the territory never took part. It never carried out any operations, or rather, it never went and shot.

Q. Very well. On page 4, in paragraph 5 you say that on several occasions you drove General Cokic from Mostar to Belgrade. And as you say that he had had meetings with General Kadijevic and received orders from him, and you say that Kadijevic was the commander-in-chief. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, tell me, where did Cokic and Kadijevic meet? ¹⁸⁸⁰³

A. I don't know what institution they met in.

Q. So you know nothing about the content of these meetings.

A. No, I don't.

Q. You assume, then, that the Federal Secretary issued orders to Cokic, the commander of the 2nd Operative Group, bypassing the then commander of the air force, whoever he was.

A. I don't know whether he met the commander of the air force and how the talks were conducted, but I do know he attended those meetings. Who was present, I don't know.

Q. So all that you know was that he went to meetings in Belgrade. You know nothing else.

A. That's correct.

Q. On page 4 in paragraph 6 you explained the chain of command in the Mostar region in 1991 and you say that it went from Kadijevic to Cokic, who ultimately issued orders to Lazar Murisic, the brigade commander; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. This is how you explained the chain of command, and now you say you don't know.

A. I know who was there and how the chain of command went in the Mostar region. Lazar Murisic was the commander of the air force brigade, and General Cokic was the commander of the 2nd Operational Group, and they cooperated with each other.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Whenever I put the headset on, there's a squeaking noise. But when I take them off, I don't hear well. ¹⁸⁸⁰⁴ These links are not very successful.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Tell me, what military district was Mostar a part of in 1991?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. All right. And who was the commander of the air force in 1991 and 1992?

A. Believe me, I don't remember that either.

Q. So you don't remember that either. Have you heard of General Tus, General Jurevic, and so on?

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: It's suggested if you put the headset on, Mr. Milosevic, it will be better. Let's try that.

THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic has not switched on his microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 4 -- well, when I have the headset on, I can hear my own voice very loud.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 4, in paragraph 7, you say you were ordered -- from the 9th of May, 1992 all members of the JNA had to remain in their barracks because there was a state of alert. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I didn't hear your answer because this was off.

A. My answer to your question was yes.

Q. And why was there a state of alert? ¹⁸⁸⁰⁵

A. Probably because of the events taking place in the former Yugoslavia at the time.

Q. You say that your task in May 1991 was to fly every day from Mostar to Zadar, taking information, recordings, and so on there, recorded from Yutel.

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you do this for?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know what the content of those news items was?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware that this was a Yugoslav television station with a very strong pro-Yugoslav orientation? It was committed to Yugoslavia and to the equality of republics and peoples. Did you ever watch those news?

A. Yes, I did watch some.

Q. Did you have to carry those news items to Zadar because they could not receive Yutel in Croatia or watch it because it was pro-Yugoslav in its orientation so it could not be broadcast there?

A. Why I had to take this to Zadar, I don't know. All I know is that I had to take those cassettes to Zadar.

Q. Very well. Let's move on to something else. On page 4, paragraph 6 you mention a commander General Mladic and Mostar.

A. Yes.

Q. Explain why you mentioned this. Do you think it's unusual that the commander of a JNA corps should cooperate with commanders of other JNA units? So why do you mention this at all? ¹⁸⁸⁰⁶

A. I've forgotten the reason why I mentioned it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I feel that this statement should be introduced into evidence because it contradicts the examination-in-chief.

JUDGE MAY: Let's have a copy of it, if we may.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just like many others. I don't have time to deal with all the contradictions, so let it be entered into evidence and we can discuss it later.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say --

JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. Any objection to it being exhibited?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I just ask that it be done under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. Yes, we'll exhibit this. The next exhibit number, if we may, for the Defence.

JUDGE KWON: 125.

THE REGISTRAR: D125. Thank you, Judge Kwon.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that two of your colleagues, Jugoslav Babic and Adem Tokic, with respect to Mladic's second visit in February 1992 - February 1992, therefore - that you were transported to Visegrad in a helicopter. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. And you claim that Jugoslav Babic, when on that same evening came ¹⁸⁸⁰⁷ back with Mladic from Visegrad said that Mladic was on a tank and that he issued the soldiers orders to advance. Is that right, according to you? Is that what you say?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we deal with this in private session?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, before we go into private session, let me just ask you, what attack are you talking about in February 1992 led by Mladic in Visegrad? What is the attack you are talking about? Do you have any idea about what you're talking?

JUDGE MAY: Do you want --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You're talking about February 1992.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness go into -- let the hearing go into a private session. The witness can then answer.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁸⁰⁸ Pages 18808 to 18812 - redacted - private session ¹⁸⁸¹³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's a nice thing to have at least something in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 5, paragraph 2, you claim that the JNA soldiers, members of the 63rd Parachute Unit, and you call them the Red Berets, that's how ¹⁸⁸¹⁴ you refer to them, that they looted Croatian houses near the Heliodrom in Mostar. Is that what you said? Did you say that?

A. I did not say that they --

THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Just so long as you didn't say what it says here.

JUDGE MAY: Well, let us clarify what he did say, since there's been an interruption.

Witness B-104, would you just clarify what you meant by that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant was that the members of the 63rd Parachute Brigade went to the places around the airport and that they targeted the houses and the buildings there and that they took from these houses alcoholic beverage and that they took down the HDZ flags and put up the army flag, or rather, the flag, whichever it was at the time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. On page 5, you state the following, in paragraph 2, that is: "When tensions broke out between the Croatian and Yugoslav armies, there was some looting, some abandoned Croatian houses in the area around the Heliodrom in Mostar, and this was done by JNA soldiers, members of the 63rd Parachute Brigade," and in brackets you say the Red Berets. The aviation brigade commander Lazar Murisic knew about this looting without taking any actions to prevent it."

So you used the word "looting" yourself, and I am asking you --

JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope you've found it, Mr. May. ¹⁸⁸¹⁵ "When tensions broke out," the paragraph reads.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm asking you: Do you accuse the soldiers of the 63rd Parachute Brigade of having looted houses close to the Heliodrom or not?

A. I'm not accusing anybody.

Q. Well, let's use another expression, then. Do you claim that the soldiers of the 63rd Parachute Brigade looted houses close to the heliport?

A. I'm saying that the members of the 63rd Parachute Brigade went and took out of the houses around the heliport goods and alcohol.

Q. A moment ago you just said "alcohol," now you add these "goods." Where did they take these goods to then?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, I assume they had to return to barracks, didn't they?

A. I didn't hear you.

Q. I said I assume they had to return to barracks. How could they, then, bring the goods into the barracks?

A. I don't know.

Q. I didn't follow what they were doing.

Q. Well, did you see any of the items that any one of them brought into the barracks?

A. I saw alcoholic drinks, and I heard that they had taken video recorders and television sets.

Q. Just a minute. I asked you what you saw. You saw alcohol, alcoholic drink. ¹⁸⁸¹⁶

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see the video recorders and television sets you mention?

A. I didn't see a single one, no.

Q. So you didn't see a single one?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. But you saw the alcohol. Well, how did you get the idea into your head that this alcohol was looted from somewhere? Weren't they able to buy it in a shop in Mostar, a bottle of plum brandy, for example? Couldn't they have bought that?

A. In that area, there were no shops.

Q. And don't you think that it is not in order to present lies about the looting that this elite unit allegedly did?

A. I didn't say the word "loot," "pljacka."

Q. So the word was introduced here without your knowledge, was it?

A. Once again, let me say that it must be an error in the translation again.

Q. All right, fine. Fine. And you claim that they were called the Red Berets; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You as a soldier are well aware of the fact that the 63rd Parachute Brigade has a name. It is the 63rd Brigade. Who told you to call them the Red Berets?

THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the answer, the interpreters apologise. ¹⁸⁸¹⁷

JUDGE MAY: Let's have the answer, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wore berets which were red in colour.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. When you know all that, now tell me, who commanded this parachute unit?

A. I don't remember the name of the person.

Q. All right. Fine. So you don't know that either. Now, let's move on to your story about Bajina Basta. In the examination-in-chief, in response to a question from Mr. Groome, having described the fact that these people had been put up in the hotel in Bajina Basta, in response to his question as to how many there were, if I remember, your answer was, "I don't know exactly, I didn't count them, but there were about 100." Was that your answer?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. So about 100 men in the hotel in Bajina Basta in Serbia, which otherwise Bajina Basta is a tourist spot; isn't that right? A tourist resort?

A. Yes.

Q. And you say about 100.

A. Let me repeat once again: I didn't count them. It was a number which is an approximation. There might have been 60, 70.

Q. All right. 60, 70, whatever. Let's say even 100. Now, amongst those 60 or 70 or 100 that you mentioned, you enumerated the 63rd Parachute Brigade from Nis, then you go on to state the 72nd Guards ¹⁸⁸¹⁸ Brigade from Belgrade, and then you mention the Drina Wolves or Wolves from the Drina Unit, that is, the police of Republika Srpska. Then you said members of the police force from Serbia; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, isn't that a little too many units, too many units for just those 70 -- 60, 70, or 100 men?

A. They were parts of units, and they weren't all accommodated at the hotel.

Q. All right. Fine. All right, Mr. 104. As a one-time JNA member yourself, do you know how many men and infantry brigade numbers of the guards brigade type, how many thousands of men such a brigade has? Do you know anything about that at all?

A. I don't remember the numbers.

Q. Ah, you don't remember the numbers. You don't remember the insignia of the brigade either, because you speak about the 72nd, whereas in your statement it says 74th. Do you know which guards brigade it was at all?

A. Maybe I made a mistake in the number because a lot of time has gone past since then. But it was a guards brigade from Belgrade.

Q. All right, a guards brigade from Belgrade, numbers several thousand men, and in those approximately 100 in which you include the Wolves, the people from Republika Srpska, and the 63rd Parachute, et cetera, you also include the guards brigade from Belgrade in all that.

A. Let me repeat once again they were all parts of units. They were parts of units, not entire units, whole units. ¹⁸⁸¹⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸²⁰

Q. So you want to say some atoms of those units, don't you?

A. I said parts.

Q. Now, as you spoke about and you were shown here the insignia and the patches that you recognised on the sleeves of these Drina Wolves, how many Drina Wolves were there who -- which you noticed?

A. I don't know.

Q. What did you say?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. Roughly. Give us a rough idea.

A. I can't really say, not even roughly.

Q. You were asked by Mr. Groome whether they were there for recreational purposes or whether they were on a combat assignment of any kind, and your answer was that most probably they were on a combat assignment because they came tired and dirty. So if somebody turns up tired and dirty, I assume that they come to the hotel to have rest and recreation and not to be on some combat assignment of any kind. And doesn't it seem to be to you logical that when you say they came in shifts, that they came for recuperation, to recover? Doesn't it seem to you to be the regular state of affairs or not?

A. The hotel didn't serve the purpose of rest and recreation. It was there to accommodate people and to have them spend the night there.

Q. All right. Now, is there some helicopter combat operation that was known about on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during that period of time when you were there? Was there anything like that? According to my information, there were no combat operations effected by helicopters at ¹⁸⁸²¹ that time. Do you know of any?

A. I don't remember any combat operations being performed at that time, as you refer to it. I suppose that's what you mean, combat operations.

Q. All right. Any kind of helicopter combat operation at that time? Do you have knowledge about that or anything similar?

A. There were various assignments of those helicopter units.

Q. All right. Name one combat operation on the part of a helicopter unit that you know of.

A. I know about reconnaissance and reconnoitering and then the transportation of freight.

Q. I see; freight, reconnaissance. Anything else?

A. There were other tasks and assignments as well, judging by the stories told by men.

Q. Ah, just storied bandied about; right?

A. Yes, right.

Q. All right. I won't go into that, then.

JUDGE MAY: It's time, Mr. Milosevic. We must adjourn now. Witness B-104, we're going to have to adjourn now. Would you be back, please, tomorrow morning to complete your evidence. Mr. Milosevic, you've got another half hour to finish your cross-examination. If you would prepare on that basis.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did I understand you correctly? Just half an hour?

JUDGE MAY: Just half an hour. That's absolutely right. Yes. ¹⁸⁸²² You will have then had more than the Prosecution, rather more than them, yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Nice has asked me to inform you -- he had some previous discussion with the Bench regarding summaries of transcript references. They have now been prepared for the parties and for the Chamber. With the Court's wish, I will hand them to the legal officer after court today.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. I'm afraid I don't recollect it immediately but no doubt we will recall.

Let me add something else: Tomorrow we must deal with some of the Rule 92 bis witnesses who we -- were left over from last week. So there must be time for that tomorrow morning.

Very well. We'll adjourn now.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

the 9th day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.