Milosevic Transcript 2003-04-09

¹⁸⁸²³

Wednesday, 9 April 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. It's all right now. Before I continue, I wish to tender this extract from the appropriate article of the criminal law of Yugoslavia which the witness mentioned as the basis for his conviction. [redacted]

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We'll take the next exhibit number, if we may.

THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number is D126.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume we're in open session now, Mr. May? ¹⁸⁸²⁴

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-[Resumed]

[Witness testified via videolink]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 104, please tell me, in connection with the events you describe in the area of Bajina Basta, can you tell me when exactly you were in Bajina Basta, in what precise period of time, from when to when?

A. I was there in different periods of time. This was in 1993 and 1994. But I have a poor memory for dates, so if I make a mistake, please make allowances for me. A lot of time has elapsed since then.

Q. Well, when in 1993 were you there? If you have a poor memory not just for dates but for years, I don't understand how you can testify about events. When were you there? You say you were there in 1993 and 1994?

JUDGE MAY: He's given you the answer. He says 1993 and 1994, so we can't take the matter any further than that. If you want to ask him when in 1993, you can.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm asking him.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When were you there in 1993 and when in 1994? Do you have any idea of the period of time you were active there?

A. This was in the spring and summer, approximately. ¹⁸⁸²⁵

Q. Spring and summer of 1993; is that correct?

A. More or less. As I said, I can't remember the exact years.

Q. And until when were you there in 1994?

A. I wish to repeat that I was there at different intervals of time. I would spend 15 days there and then go away and come back again.

Q. Very well. It seems to be difficult to establish this, but can you then explain, when was the last time you were there in 1994? Do you remember that, at least?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You don't remember that either? Very well. Well, were you there in 1995?

A. No.

Q. You weren't. Very well. As you weren't there in 1995, how is it possible that on page 8 in paragraph 9 you say that Franko Simatovic left Bajina Basta when the area was ethically cleansed in late 1995? You weren't there after 1994 and yet you claim that he was there until the end of 1995 when the area was ethnically cleansed. Where did you get this statement, then? Did you make this up just as you made up everything else?

JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. That's a comment, Mr. Milosevic. Ask the question in proper form.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that it is a proper form, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: No. It ended with a comment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ¹⁸⁸²⁶

Q. Well, where did you get this, then? You weren't there in 1995, and you say he was there until the end of 1995 and that he left the area when it was ethnically cleansed. Where did you get this statement?

A. I said that I heard that from people who were there.

Q. You heard that from hearsay, from people who were there?

A. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is ridiculous, but I'll continue my examination.

JUDGE MAY: No. No. That's a comment. You can make it in due course, but at the moment you're simply asking questions. You're wasting time with comments of that sort.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that Bajina Basta is in Serbia?

A. Yes, Bajina Basta is in Serbia.

Q. So what sort of ethnic cleansing are you talking about? Because you say he left Bajina Basta when the area was ethnically cleansed. Who was it cleansed of ethnically? Of whom was Bajina Basta and that area cleansed?

A. I wish to say that the units were only stationed in Bajina Basta but their activities were carried out over the River Drina and their operations.

Q. Yesterday to my direct question as to whether you participated and whether you had any kind of combat activity, you said all you did was reconnaissance flights and some sort of transport flights and medevacs. Is ¹⁸⁸²⁷ that correct?

A. That's what I did, but other units had other tasks.

Q. What do you know about the assignments of other units?

A. Nothing specific, but I know in general that they were in the area of the River Drina and that's where they carried out their combat operations. They crossed the River Drina.

JUDGE MAY: Let's clarify one point. It's put to you that you're wrong about something, but let us clarify it. When you were referring to an area being ethnically cleansed in 1995, which area were you referring to?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the area across the River Drina, the area of Skelani, Osmace, that part of the territory.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, how do you know this?

A. I've already answered that question.

Q. You only said you heard some rumours about this. Very well. Tell me, as you said that you yourself did not take part in combat operations, I will ask you about what you wrote on page 8 of your statement, something contained on page 8 of your statement. I will not mention names so we don't have to go into closed session, but please pay attention. You have the statement before you, page 8, paragraphs 3, 4, and 5. You say that Frenki arrived from Belgrade and that he called some names I won't mention. These were colleagues of yours, pilots, and you yourself. That's what you say. You say you were present, and that he told you he had met me, although he never met me, and that I ordered him that four ¹⁸⁸²⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸²⁹ villages should be destroyed in the area of Srebrenica in the following four nights. That's what it says in your statement. You say you don't know the names of the villages and so on, and then you go on to explain how events proceeded after that.

Tell me, did somebody destroy those villages, and is your statement correct in this?

A. As regards this task --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't hear very well, although I've put these earphones on. The sound is very poor.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as regards this task, Mr. Frenki did come back from Belgrade and he asked us what could be done with a helicopter, what a helicopter could carry.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Answer me first, did he tell you that he visited me? Did you mention me in this conversation, in your interview with the investigators?

A. I don't remember this.

Q. So you don't remember this. Well, and what about this task? Can you explain what happened? What assignment did he give you?

A. He didn't give me any assignment.

Q. Well, you say he invited four of you; you were the fourth.

A. He asked us to see him because he wanted to know what a helicopter could carry and what could be done from a helicopter.

Q. Well, he asked you what a helicopter could carry, but please, you say in the very next paragraph that you were told that they threw down ¹⁸⁸³⁰ four barrels full of liquid chemicals, poisons. "Frenki told them that the contents of a single barrel would kill all the people in an area the size of a football field." That's what it says in your statement. Do you know whether in the civil war on the territory of the former Yugoslavia any side used chemical weapons, poisons?

A. I said that that's what I heard.

Q. So they threw barrels of poisons on villages to destroy entire villages. That's what you say in your statement. Is this what you said, the way it's written here in the statement, or did you say something else?

A. I've answered your question.

Q. No, you haven't answered. Did you tell the investigators that they threw barrels with chemicals, this whole science fictional account about destroying villages with chemicals? Did you say that?

A. I repeat: That's what I heard they had done.

Q. Did you ever hear that poisons were used, either from a helicopter or on the ground or in any other way?

A. I think I've answered your question.

JUDGE MAY: No. Did you hear -- the question is: Did you hear that poisons or a toxin or a chemical had been used? Which is what it says in your statement. Is that what you heard?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And when was this, tell me, please.

A. I really can't remember the date now.

Q. Oh, so you can't remember that either. ¹⁸⁸³¹

A. No, I can't.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, can you tell us from whom you did hear that? You can say it in private session, if you wish.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I want to be in private session when I say that.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁸³²

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Can we then say that what is stated here in your statement is not correct? Because you say that he called and then he names certain people, including yourself, then he issued this assignment regarding four villages, and now you're saying that he wasn't present when he gave that assignment. ¹⁸⁸³³

JUDGE MAY: I think we have spent enough time on this. The witness has given his evidence, and we've heard you cross-examine. Let's move on to another subject.

THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

JUDGE MAY: You're not on the microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let us move on. There are quite a number of other questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we can hear you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you hear me, Mr. 104?

A. Yes.

Q. Yesterday, in answer to a question from Mr. Kwon, who noted that Jadar was a river, you said that it was a hill. And as a pilot, you are well versed with maps. Jadar is a river, Mr. 104. Do you know that? And Zeleni Jadar is a village, not a hill. Do you know that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that it was Jadar. I said -- I was talking about Zeleni Jadar.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. But Zeleni Jadar is a village, not a hill. And what happened in Zeleni Jadar?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. You mentioned Zeleni Jadar. Now, explain to me what happened in connection with Zeleni Jadar. Did you have an operation there or what?

A. I answered yesterday that I didn't have any operation at Zeleni ¹⁸⁸³⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸³⁵ Jadar. Now I wish to answer your other question that you put to me. At Zeleni Jadar there were operations conducted by the 63rd Parachute Brigade and the Vukovi from Drina.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How do you know that when you weren't there?

A. I know about it because the gentleman who was working with me was there. He was in Osmace at Zeleni Jadar. And the other gentlemen who were there told me about those combat operations.

Q. Very well. Then we would have to ask those gentlemen that you mentioned rather than you.

Very well. Do you know what Frenki was?

A. As far as I know, he was the head of the unit that was stationed in that area.

Q. Do you know that he was the head of the Intelligence Department of the security service and that he collected intelligence information? Do you know that or not?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Was he a JNA officer?

A. As far as I know, he was not.

Q. No, I see. But in your statement you say he was in command of the 63rd Parachute Brigade, the 74th Guards Brigade, et cetera. So explain, please, was that an error that you made or are you still claiming that he was in command of those military units even though he was not an officer of the JNA? ¹⁸⁸³⁶

A. To clarify what you asked me, Mr. Frenki was not in command of the 63rd Parachute Brigade, nor of the Guards Brigade. I said that there was a commander of the Parachute Brigade who was with me at the time; however, Mr. Frenki was in charge of all those operations around Bajina Basta. That was my impression, the impression I gained.

Q. But Mr. Groome asked you yesterday whether he issued orders, and you said that you personally had not noticed him giving orders to anyone. And then he asked you whether he was saluted to as a superior officer, and he [as interpreted] said you didn't see anyone saluting him as a superior officer. Is that right? That's what you said yesterday. Well, then explain, please, how did you get the idea that the head of the Intelligence Department of the security service could be in command of some military units. Where did that idea come from in your statement?

A. I will repeat. My unit, my part of the unit that was in the area had a superior officer who cooperated with Mr. Frenki and who agreed on any operations that were carried out in the area.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. That was his evidence yesterday, Mr. Milosevic. It's not true that he never said that he was saluted. He did say that. The point he made, what he said was he never saw Frenki giving orders to members of the JNA or being saluted by them, but he was superior to the police units and the Wolves and was saluted by them. He was in charge of everything going on in Bajina Basta but there was always a VJ officer in charge of communications with him. So that distinction he did make yesterday.

Yes. ¹⁸⁸³⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Were you present when these orders you mention were issued?

A. I didn't hear your question.

Q. Were you present when any orders were issued to a JNA officer or when there were agreements being reached with a JNA officer?

A. I don't remember exactly. I think I was, but I can't remember precisely.

Q. Oh, so you can't remember. Very well. You say on page 6, paragraph 8, that Frenki and Arkan established the unit the Drina Wolves and that they established it in Knin under the name of Knindze. Is that what you say?

A. That was said to me by Mr. Max, Mr. Nedjo, and the other gentlemen who were in the area.

Q. Very well. Can you tell me what you yourself know personally in your testimony. You probably know because you say that you know where they're from. These Drina Wolves were people from Bosnia; is that correct? Was this a police unit of the Republika Srpska? Is that something that is not sure?

A. Please put me one question at a time.

Q. This unit that you call the Drina Wolves, was it a police unit of Republika Srpska?

A. No.

Q. Whose unit was it?

A. This unit, the Drina Wolves, were composed of the police of the ¹⁸⁸³⁸ Republic of Serbia and local villages from the area of Bajina Basta and Skelani and Bosnia.

Q. Very well. And these villages, were they from Bosnia?

A. These villages were from Bosnia.

Q. Very well. Then explain to me, how could this unit have been established in Knin under the name of Knindze? Because that's what you say.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this unit which was established in Knin was called Knindze. Part of that unit arrived and established the Drina Wolves in Bajina Basta.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, so this means that they arrived from the Krajina, the Knindze did, to Bajina Basta, and then they established the Drina Wolves. Is that what you're saying?

A. I'm saying that certain individuals arrived who were the basis of that unit, who were from the unit called Knindze, and they established the Drina Wolves.

Q. How do you know this?

A. I think I've answered that.

Q. Were you ever in Knin?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that these people were in Knin? How do you know this?

JUDGE MAY: He's answered that. He said he was told that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, all right. All right, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: And time is almost up, Mr. Milosevic. You've got ¹⁸⁸³⁹ another two minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two minutes is not enough for me, Mr. May. This nonsense has to be clarified.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, you said that the army had green camouflage uniforms, the police blue camouflage uniforms, and the Drina Wolves black uniforms; is this correct?

A. The army had green camouflage uniforms, and the police and the Drina Wolves wore blue camouflage uniforms.

Q. Very well.

A. A part of --

Q. Yes, please continue.

A. A part of the Drina Wolves also wore black uniforms.

Q. Very well.

A. Some of the Drina Wolves also wore green uniforms.

Q. So they wore green and blue and black uniforms, these Drina Wolves, but you cannot remember how many of them there were. I asked you yesterday how many of these Drina Wolves there were whom you saw there.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these Drina Wolves, their number, I don't know that because most of the members of the unit were engaged in combat operations across the River Drina. It was only the corps of the unit and the logistical support that was located in the hotel in Bajina Basta.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But the people you describe whose uniforms you saw, you say they ¹⁸⁸⁴⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁴¹ were not on the other bank of the Drina. You saw them in Bajina Basta. How many of them did you see?

A. I saw these people who made up the corps of the unit in Bajina Basta, and I also saw them in white jeeps, Defender-type jeeps, owned by the police of the Republic of Serbia. I saw them crossing the Drina.

Q. Well, how many of them were there, the ones you saw?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that there were about 100 of these men whom I saw, but I don't know the exact number because I never counted them.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this must be your last question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is absolutely insufficient. This cannot be allowed because this witness has said all sorts of things and his statement is very long. I don't know how you think I can -- I can cross-examine him --

JUDGE MAY: His statement, in fact, is I think eight or nine pages. So compared with many of the statements we have in this case, it's not long. You were told the time that you have, and you must tailor your cross-examine accordingly. But you can ask another question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, in your statement I did not see you say that there were any convicts in this unit. Yesterday Mr. Groome asked you whether there were convicts in the unit and you said there was a man nicknamed Pacov, is that correct, Pacov meaning "rat"?

A. Yesterday, when asked, I responded that the lady who was Mr. Frenki's secretary had told me that Mr. Pacov was a former convict ¹⁸⁸⁴² from a prison in Kosovo and that Mr. Frenki took him out of prison and brought him to that battlefield.

Q. So Frenki's secretary told you this?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the answer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

Q. Did she tell you anything else? Were there any other convicts?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you feel that as a soldier or a former soldier that this fact was important, that there was a convict in a unit?

A. I think it is important.

Q. If you think it's important, why is it not in the statement that you made when you were interviewed by the investigators? Why did you withhold this important fact?

A. I don't know. I probably forgot to mention it.

Q. Well, how did you manage to remember it yesterday, then?

A. I did remember it.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, I should like to ask you something about the things that you told us yesterday in the examination-in-chief answering questions from the Prosecution. You said yesterday that on one occasion you saw in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina in certain locations a large number of victims; is that right?

A. No. ¹⁸⁸⁴³

Q. You didn't say yesterday that on one occasion you saw victims as you were flying in your helicopter?

A. No.

Q. You didn't mention victims at all yesterday?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you explain to Their Honours in what connection you mentioned those victims.

A. I said that a colleague who was with me had told me about it.

Q. So you personally didn't see it?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. And is it true that you said yesterday that on two occasions you took part in deliveries of certain material?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that weapons?

A. I don't remember any more.

Q. But you didn't say that when you were interviewed by the investigator of the Prosecution. In your first statement you did not mention at all your participation in any such activities. Can you explain that to Their Honours?

A. I don't know.

Q. Thank you. You said that you did not belong to a unit that was under the command of Frenki.

A. Yes.

Q. But in your statement which you gave to the investigators -- I don't know whether you have it in front of you over there. ¹⁸⁸⁴⁴

A. I don't.

Q. It is page 5, paragraph 6 of the English version. And I'll read what it says in the B/C/S version. You said that going to Bajina Basta, you were assigned to a unit under Frenki's command. Is that right or not?

A. Yes, it is true that I was assigned to a unit of which Mr. Frenki was the boss.

Q. You said that you were in a unit under another commander a moment ago.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I explained how the command structure functioned there.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Here in your statement, page 5, paragraph 5 of the English version, it says that you arrived in Bajina Basta and Skelani in the winter of 1993. A moment ago you mentioned the spring and the summer. Which is true; what you said here or in your statement?

A. When I was there for the first time in Bajina Basta and Skelani, that was between the winter and the spring.

Q. Very well. Thank you. But what you said at the time, you said that the very first time that you were in Bajina Basta you stayed at a hotel in Bajina Basta; is that right?

A. I spent only one night in that hotel.

Q. But where did you stay otherwise?

A. In the elementary school in Skelani.

Q. And how many times did you take Frenki in your helicopter?

A. I don't remember. ¹⁸⁸⁴⁵

Q. Not even approximately?

A. Not even approximately.

Q. And when you took him to Belgrade, as you said yesterday, where were you sitting when you were driving?

A. In the back.

Q. Why in the back, when you're an operator, navigator, and a pilot? Who was sitting in your place as the operator?

A. Mr. Frenki.

Q. Wasn't this dangerous for the flight?

A. In a sense, yes.

Q. And can you tell me something else: You said on a number of occasions that you had heard from other people in Frenki's unit what was being planned and what was being done, but in your statement you said that they never mentioned what assignments would be carried out by men in his unit. Is that right? This is page 8, paragraph 1 of the English version. Is that true, that they never spoke about the actions they were undertaking?

A. They and his men never spoke about operations or activities that they were undertaking, but from stories, from conversations when they returned from those operations, one could learn of various details.

Q. Thank you very much.

MR. GROOME: Just a couple of questions, Your Honour. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. B-104, in response to a question that Mr. Tapuskovic just put to you, you said that on most occasions when you were in Bajina Basta you ¹⁸⁸⁴⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁴⁷ stayed at an elementary school in Skelani; is that correct?

A. Only the first time I went there.

Q. The time that you stayed in the elementary school in Skelani, were you directed to that school by somebody at -- in Bajina Basta who was in a position of responsibility or was that your own decision to go and stay at that elementary school?

A. I was told to go to that elementary school by Mr. Maksi [phoen]. He gave instructions to me and my associate.

Q. And Skelani is in what republic?

A. Skelani is in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions. Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE KWON: Mr. B-104, to clarify this matter, I'd like to ask this question once again. I'll read out some passages in your statement. It is on page 7, around the sixth paragraph. "I remember an occasion but not date or even year when Frenki came back from Belgrade. He called ..." Some colleagues of yours; I will not name it here, "... and me, telling us that he met with the president (Milosevic) who had ordered the destruction of four villages in the Srebrenica area within the next four nights." To the question put to you by the accused, you said that you don't remember this. Could you clarify this. Is this also what you heard from your colleagues, or you don't remember this at all? How come this passage could appear in your statement?

A. Your Honour, Mr. Frenki, when he returned from Belgrade, invited ¹⁸⁸⁴⁸ us to an informal meeting and asked us about ways in which it was possible to act from a helicopter, as I have explained. However, who Mr. Frenki met with in Belgrade, I really don't know.

JUDGE KWON: That's enough. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-104, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for making yourself available to give it. You are now free to go.

[The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is outside. And there's also Mr. McKeon here, if the Court would wish to deal with the 92 bis matter now; whichever the Court prefers.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll go on with the evidence now.

MR. GROOME: It's a protected witness, the next witness.

JUDGE MAY: We need protective measures. Well, we've made the order, have we, in relation to that?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. There was an order. I can get the date, if it's necessary.

JUDGE MAY: It's merely a question of getting -- before we forget, the accused produced an exhibit, and I don't know if we have it or not. Did we have -- did we have the exhibit from the accused? If so, perhaps it could be collected.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: I think better, if we can, to hear the evidence. We'll find a moment towards the end of the day to deal with the legal ¹⁸⁸⁴⁹ argument.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls B-1493.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

JUDGE MAY: Your microphone is not on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [redacted]

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: The order has been made, so we're not going to go back on that. We will see what the position is when he gives his evidence.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1493

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Would you like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in an exercise of caution, could I ask the registrar to check whether that last bit of colloquy was done in open court. It appears in the transcript that the discussion about the witness's position may have been done in public court. ¹⁸⁸⁵⁰

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it was in open session. So I will redact it, if requested.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. Let's go on.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown tab 1 of the -- an exhibit binder. And if possible, I ask that it be assigned a number at this stage.

THE REGISTRAR: P425. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Witness B-1493, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 425, tab 1. Is that your name and date of birth at the top of that sheet of paper?

A. I have looked at the document, and all the information it contains is correct.

Q. And is your name contained on that document?

A. Yes. I signed this document on the 24th of March, 2003.

Q. And does that document also contain a summary of your educational and professional background?

A. The document does contain all the information regarding my educational background and working experience.

MR. GROOME: Thank you. I'm finished with that document. I'd ask that we briefly go into private session for a few background questions.

[Private session]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁸⁵¹ Page 18851 - redacted - private session

¹⁸⁸⁵² ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁵³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May. ¹⁸⁸⁵⁴

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that this can be a reason for the witness to testify in secret.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [redacted]

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: He is not examined secretly. As you know quite well, much of it is in open session. Some of it is in private session. That is not in secret. It's in private session. There's a distinction. Now, let's go on.

MR. GROOME: Can I just ask that that last question be redacted, as it reveals his identity.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, we are now in open session. My first question to you is: In March of 1991 as a high-ranking member of the JNA, did you become aware of the formulation of an emergency plan?

A. Yes. In March of 1991, my command, in which I had a very senior position for operative and wartime planning, received an order to prepare a plan for the use of units in the case of an emergency. When I examined that plan, up until then and from 1988 I had compiled a number of plans, but it seemed rather strange to me because this was the first time for us to be doing something like that. I personally was involved on a part of that plan, that is, the preparation of maps, ethnic maps for the territory ¹⁸⁸⁵⁵ in Croatia. We had to indicate clearly and highlight even the smallest village in the colour corresponding to ethnicity and indicate the exact number of inhabitants, Croats, Serbs, and others. Also, we had to mark every important bridge, radio relay transmitter, communication centres, and both civilian and military.

Q. Sir --

A. And --

Q. Sir, you said that this plan was different than other plans you had worked on in the past. How was it different?

A. It was different because up until then we hadn't prepared any plans based on ethnicity, but we were devising plans that would involve all the inhabitants of Yugoslavia without any consideration given to ethnic composition.

Secondly, the plan mentioned the possible -- a possible internal enemy.

Q. Did it specify who this internal enemy was?

A. Yes. The plan mentioned the potential internal enemies could be extremist parts of the HDZ.

Q. Now, this plan, did this plan have an imagined scenario that was used to develop particular points about the plan?

A. As I said, I worked on only a part of that plan, that is, the map. The first document of the plan consisted of the order for the use of JNA units and units of the Territorial Defence. And each unit would be attributed an area of responsibility within that zone.

Q. Did you complete your work on this plan? ¹⁸⁸⁵⁶

A. Yes.

Q. And from -- from whom did you receive the directive to work on this plan?

A. It was called an excerpt or an abstract for the preparation of a plan. My unit received it from the command of the 1st Military District in Belgrade.

Q. You've talked about March 1991 as the time that you were asked to do this plan. Was the plan completed around that same time period or did it take longer than March?

A. Towards the end of the plan, there was a deadline indicating when the plan had to be completed and a copy of the plan had to be forwarded to the command of the 1st Military District in Belgrade, and the deadline was April 1991.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to events in Croatia in May of 1991.

JUDGE MAY: Before you do, I need to clarify something. Let's go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ¹⁸⁸⁵⁷

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention to events in Croatia in May of 1991. I would point out to the Chamber that the locations that he will refer to can be found on mapbook -- Prosecution Exhibit 336, page 23, and it would be the intersection of D2.

Sir, in May of 1991, were you involved in a joint detachment that was sent to the Borovo Selo area of Croatia?

A. In May -- to be more precise, on the 2nd of May, 1991, after the events in Borovo Selo, I was called by my commander and given orders to be the commander of a joint detachment which needed to go and station itself in Vinkovci, where it would be given more specific assignments.

Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what were the individual units ¹⁸⁸⁵⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁵⁹ that made up this joint detachment?

A. It's called a joint detachment because it is not a unit that is a part of the establishment but is composed of several diverse units so that it consisted of one platoon of APCs, one platoon of Pragas - or air defence - one platoon of military police, one platoon of scouts, one platoon of engineers.

Q. When you use the word "Praga," what are you referring to?

A. Praga is a combat armoured vehicle of Czech manufacture intended for targeting in the air, and it is very effective for use with the infantry.

Q. At the time you left for this mission, what was your understanding of the task that was being given to this joint detachment?

A. When I went on that mission, I knew roughly because I had been informed that a similar such detachment had been formed in Slavonia and that it was already on its way along the route Osijek-Nustar-Borovo Selo and that our assignment was to prevent inter-ethnic conflicts in the area.

Q. Did your part of this detachment arrive in Vinkovci at some point?

A. We arrived, as planned, around 9.00 or 9.30 in the evening in Vinkovci. We stationed ourselves in the barracks in Vinkovci. I told the troops to take a rest and I also rested in the night between the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1991.

Q. On the first night that you were in Vinkovci, could you hear anything in the area?

A. Throughout the night shooting could be heard, firing mainly from infantry weapons. ¹⁸⁸⁶⁰

Q. And could you tell the direction from which that fire came?

A. Yes. One could tell that it was coming from the direction of the villages of Mirkovci and Jankovci.

Q. Now, those villages, can you tell the Chamber what is the ethnic make-up of those two respective villages.

A. The village of Mirkovci is about 7 and a half or 8 kilometres from Vinkovci. The village of Jankovci about 10, 10 and a half kilometres from Vinkovci. Mirkovci is 100 percent Serb populated. The village of Jankovci is about 95 per cent Croat populated. There are six households that were occupied by Serbs.

Q. And so it's clear, it appears that on the map there are two locations with the name of Jankovci in it. Is there another name or a more precise definition of Jankovci?

A. There's a road going from Vinkovci to the village of Mirkovci, and then as you go on you will come across the village of Jankovci.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that page 23 of the mapbook be placed on the overhead projector.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you just to take the pointer in front of you and indicate Jankovci that you're referring to in your testimony.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. There we note two Jankovcis, one Stari Jankovci and another Novi Jankovci. Could you clarify that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we're moving from Vinkovci, the village of Mirkovci, and then the village of Old Jankovci, Stari Jankovci, where it says "Stari Jankovci." But Stari and Novi Jankovci are virtually linked together and now they are one village. And it was in the area of ¹⁸⁸⁶¹ Stari Jankovci, at this crossroads here, in the direction of Mirkovci, right next to the road there are three Serb households. One house is across the way from the crossroads.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention now to the first full day that you were in Vinkovci. Can you please describe what, if anything, you and this joint detachment did.

A. In the morning, when we got up, we had breakfast as usual and engaged in preparations. And about 11.00 I was called up by radio link, and I received on the printer an order from my commander for the use or deployment of the unit.

Q. And how were you to deploy the unit?

A. Let me add that that morning, too, the shooting could be heard, and the order said that I had to organise a column in combat formation to head along the indicated route to investigate what was happening between the villages of Mirkovci and Jankovci and possibly to link up with the next joint detachment, which had been dispatched from Osijek.

Q. And did you in fact do that?

A. At a quarter past 11.00, roughly, I set off with a column. I reached the first houses prior to the village of Mirkovci, and on the road I came across a roadblock, a barricade. That was the first time I saw any such thing since I have been an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. When you say "roadblock," can you describe in a little greater detail what it was that was blocking the road.

A. On that road there were four iron hedgehogs. To the left and the ¹⁸⁸⁶² right there were sandbags piled up. And behind this protective pile was a machine-gun pointed towards Vinkovci. In the middle of that obstacle was a soldier. He was wearing a uniform. That's why I called him a soldier. But when I saw him, I was astonished, flabbergasted. He was wearing complete Chetnik uniforms; he had a firm hat on his head, bandoliers across his chest, he was holding a machine-gun in his hands, he had special kind of trousers. He stopped the column. He stood in front of us and stopped us and said that we couldn't pass until we were given approval by his commander.

Q. Sir, you've used the word "hedgehog." Am I correct in thinking that what you were referring to is a set of iron girders bolted together in such a way as to make it impossible for a vehicle to drive over them or around them?

A. Yes.

Q. And you're indicating an X-shape with your fingers to indicate what the appearance of a hedgehog looked like?

A. Hedgehogs are mostly made from old iron girders, and they consist of three such girders and are usually used to block roads.

Q. The person that you've described being in this Chetnik uniform, did you have a conversation with this person?

A. No. He just said to me, because I was at the head of the column, "You can't pass until you're given permission by my commander." And I asked him, "And who is your commander?" And he said, "He's in that house." It was about 20 metres away. And I said, "Can you call that command of yours?" And then he actually did go off, and in about ten ¹⁸⁸⁶³ minutes a man came out dressed in the same manner as he, and he came up to me and asked me, "Who are you?" And I told him that we were a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army whose assignment was to establish order in the area, and I said, "Please remove these hedgehogs so we can pass." He answered, "To remove the hedgehogs, I have to receive permission from my commander." Then I asked him, "And who is your commander?" And he said, "My command is in Sremska Mitrovica, so please allow me to go and telephone, to ask for permission or not, and then I'll let you know." And indeed he went off, returned very quickly, and said, "I have been given permission from Sremska Mitrovica," and this soldier who was there before him removed two hedgehogs and we went on through the village of Mirkovci towards the village of Jankovci.

MR. GROOME: Before I ask my next question, what time would the Chamber want to break this morning?

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Witness B-1493, we are going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. During this adjournment and any others there may be in the case while you're giving your evidence, don't speak to anybody, please, about it until it's over and don't let anybody speak to you about it, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes. If you'll be back then.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: ¹⁸⁸⁶⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁶⁵

Q. Sir, before we continue, I want to ask a few more questions about this roadblock. Is it true that altogether there were three men manning this roadblock?

A. That's correct. There were two men manning the machine-guns and one man standing in the middle of the barricade.

Q. That three men, does that include the person or the commander who was up in the house?

A. No.

Q. You've described the uniform that one of them was wearing. How were the other men at this roadblock dressed?

A. All four of them, in fact, including the commander, were wearing the same uniforms with the same insignia.

Q. Now, you said that the first person you talked -- or, I'm sorry, the commander of the roadblock, when you spoke to him, he said that he had to check with his commander in Sremska Mitrovica. In what republic is Sremska Mitrovica?

A. Sremska Mitrovica is in the Republic of Serbia.

Q. Now, did any of the men at the roadblock identify the name of the unit or organisation that they belonged to?

A. Neither the commander who came nor the soldiers manning the barricade revealed to me what unit was stationed in Sremska Mitrovica.

Q. How many men did you have in the column?

A. There were about 120 men in total in the column.

Q. Can you explain to us why it was you followed this procedure of allowing him to get permission rather than simply forcibly going through ¹⁸⁸⁶⁶ the roadblock?

A. First of all, I was surprised when I saw that on the road, men wearing such uniforms, although I had heard before that that such things were happening. But this was the first time I had experienced personally a barricade and people in those uniforms, and the main reason I didn't use force to go through the barricade was that this was not my task. My task was quite the opposite. My commander had told me to restore order and to make sure that there was no shooting, no firing in the area.

Q. How long were you held at the barricade before they allowed you to pass through it?

A. This all lasted about 25 minutes or half an hour.

Q. And where did you go when you passed through the barricade?

A. When I passed through the barricade, I passed through the village of Mirkovci, and then there is a small bend. And when I arrived at the bend, I saw that at the end of the village of Jankovci there was a house on fire and that there was shooting there, so I went with the column in the direction of the village of Jankovci.

Q. Let me ask you about Mirkovci. As you passed through that village, did you notice anything unusual, such as evidence of fighting or houses on fire?

A. In the village of Mirkovci, there was nothing very unusual. You could hear shooting coming from the direction of Jankovci. But in the village itself there was nothing going on. But I didn't see anyone in the street. There was almost nobody around, or around the houses next to the road. ¹⁸⁸⁶⁷

Q. What did you do when you arrived in Jankovci?

A. Before I arrived in Jankovci, when I saw that there was a house on fire about half a kilometre or a little more away, I stopped the column, I deployed the APCs in battle order, I called the military police and sent him off with a Praga to see what the shooting was about, why the house was on fire, simply to reconnoitre.

Q. During your time in Jankovci, were you able to speak with one of the community leaders of that village?

A. When my military police patrol came back, they reported that there was a group of armed men who fled in the direction of the village of Mirkovci when the patrol arrived. I redeployed the joint detachment in a house in between the two villages, and I sent couriers and my assistant to look for the presidents of the local communes of Mirkovci and Jankovci.

Q. The military police that reported back to you, did they describe what, if any, uniforms these armed men were wearing?

A. Yes. They said they had seen those four men. One had even dropped a walkie-talkie which was handed over to my command, and they said they were wearing the same sort of uniforms as the men we had seen at the barricade.

Q. The walkie-talkie that was handed over to you, did you recognise this as a piece of equipment from the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. At that time the Yugoslav People's Army did not use such means of radio communication. The smallest radio station was RUP 3. And that was used at squad and company level.

Q. Did there come a time when you convened a meeting between the ¹⁸⁸⁶⁸ local municipality presidents of both Mirkovci, the Serb village, and Stari Jankovci, the Croat village?

A. First the representative of the MUP from Vinkovci arrived. About ten minutes later, the president of the local commune of Jankovci arrived, and about half an hour later - and it was already evening, about 6.30 - the president of the local commune of Mirkovci arrived. Then we started a meeting of all of us in that house.

Q. Can I ask you to summarise briefly what was told to you at -- during the course of that meeting.

A. I have to point out, I said that in the village of Jankovci the first three houses before the crossroads and one after the crossroads were Serbian houses. The people from that house came and they asked that the army remain there to protect them and the village. They said that some people had been infiltrated, that they were not even from Mirkovci. And as I said, the joint detachment had been sent there to protect the people. With the presidents of the local communes and the representative of the MUP from Vinkovci, I explained to them first of all what my task was, the task I had been given by my superior officer, and I said that all operations had to be stopped; otherwise, I would have to use force in order to calm down the situation.

Q. Did the people at this meeting identify or describe these infiltrators that they told you about?

A. It was the president of the local commune of Mirkovci who said that the men who had set up the barricade in Mirkovci and who had done what they had done in the village of Jankovci, that these were not local ¹⁸⁸⁶⁹ people from the village of Mirkovci, that they were people who had been infiltrated from outside. Then they told me that between the two villages there had been no conflicts for centuries, that co-existence was exceptionally good, that they always exchanged visits at Christmas and Easter, that there were many marriages between the villages -- between the inhabitants of the two villages.

Q. So that the record is clear, is it your testimony that you were informed that the infiltrators were the people who damaged these three houses in Jankovci?

A. I was told that these were people who had been infiltrated. The president of Mirkovci told me this. And they damaged a Croatian house which was next to the first Serbian house behind the crossroads. There was an inn on the ground floor and there were two floors above where people resided, and that was the only house that was set on fire.

Q. Now, during the evening of the 3rd of May, did you send a report to your superiors regarding your observations of the situation in this area?

A. On completion of every combat task in the JNA, the commander was duty-bound before 2200 hours to send a regular daily combat report. And after the meeting I have described, that's what I did. I sent a report to my command directly where I described how I had set out, what I had found, and what I had done. I also told them how I had deployed my units, what kind of obstacles I had come across, what people. And this was received by the head of the operations centre in my command who forwarded it immediately to the command of the 1st Military District in Belgrade. ¹⁸⁸⁷⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁷¹

Q. Did you in this report recount the events at the roadblock?

A. I described everything, everything that I have just said in my testimony. All this was in my report.

Q. Now, you've testified that the military police, your military police, informed you that this group of infiltrators had fled in the direction of Mirkovci. After that point in time, was there any other shooting or conflict in that area for the time that you remained there?

A. During the night, between the 3rd and the 4th of May, 1991, for the most part there was not much shooting. You could hear sporadic shooting at the end of the village of Mirkovci, but you couldn't describe it as firing on the village of Jankovci. It was probably to intimidate people or shooting by drunken men, but the situation was quite calm, actually.

Q. Did you deploy the men under your command in such a way as to attempt to separate and to prevent further conflicts?

A. As I said, when I brought the column to the area between Mirkovci and Jankovci, I did that right away because, when I arrived, that's when the conflicts were at their highest point and that's when I deployed my unit. When the military police patrol came back, we simply improved the deployment a little bit and we had to secure people. We had to provide for security during the night to avoid surprises.

Q. Now, did there come a time when you received a response to the report that you filed with your superiors on the 3rd of May?

A. On the 4th, in the morning, I received a reply from my superior officer that I should remain and provide security with the same kind of ¹⁸⁸⁷² deployment I had set up up to that point.

On the 4th of May, in that area you could hear sporadic shooting here and there but there were no operations going on.

Q. What happened on the 5th of May?

A. On the 5th of May, at around 10.00, a colleague of mine arrived in a 101 vehicle with an order from my superior commander saying that he was now appointed commander of that joint detachment and that I was to return to my command. So we carried out a handover of duties and I was ordered to stop in the village of Sid, where I was to pick up two soldiers on their way from Belgrade. And that's what I did.

Q. Was this unusual for you to receive such an order in the middle of carrying out a mission?

A. Yes. Probably, yes.

Q. After you left this area, did you learn what happened with the joint detachment that was now stationed in this area?

A. After my departure, around the 7th of May, between the 7th and the 8th, there were intense conflicts in the area between the villages of Mirkovci and Jankovci and one might say that that's when war really broke out in that area. I can say that the heads of the households in those four houses sent a letter to my superior command on the 6th of May asking for me to be sent back to the area. This document is in existence in the operations centre of the 1st Military District.

Q. Now, when you returned to your command, did you have a conversation with your superior officer regarding the events in this -- in Croatia? ¹⁸⁸⁷³

A. When I returned to my command, of course in the line of duty I went to see my commander who had appointed me to that post to give him an oral report. But as soon as I entered his office, he said to me, "What kind of report did you send?" And I said, "Well, it was a regular combat report." And he said, "What sort of Chetniks did you see? You saw tomcats."

Q. And what was your response?

A. I said, "Commander, I saw real men, Chetniks, the kind I've seen in films, the films entitled "Kozara," "Sutjeska," and "Neretva." And he said, "That's impossible."

Q. Did he tell you whether or not he -- did he tell you about the response of the 1st Military District to your report?

A. He didn't tell me that. I heard that from the chief of the operations centre, that there had been a reaction in the 1st Military District. They criticised my superior officer because of the report that had been forwarded to them. They said he should have checked it first.

Q. Now, around the same period of time, was the composition of the officers in your corps changing, the ethnic composition?

A. At that time, in my command, the superior -- I was the only non-Serb, along with another officer of Croatian ethnicity, who were in high-ranking positions. Otherwise, the head and -- or the chief and all his assistants were Serbs.

Q. Had it always been like that?

A. Always? No, it had not always been like that, from the time my unit was established. But after -- or rather, from 1988, when it was ¹⁸⁸⁷⁴ established, it was mixed. The corps command was mainly of that composition, but at brigade level there were non-Serb officers. However, in 1990, practically not a single commander from battalion level upwards was a non-Serb.

Q. Around this period of time, the summer and going into the fall of 1991, was your access to information that you previously had access to, was that restricted in any way?

A. I told you in the beginning that in my superior command I had a very important role in operative and war planning. But after my return some 15 days later, I was ordered to hand over this duty, and I was denied access to the operations room where war planning was conducted. I continued carrying out duties in that department, but they were not duties connected with war planning.

Q. Had you been cited for any misconduct or were there any pending accusations against you which could have explained this change in the access that you had to this information?

A. I was never disciplined, but it was a punishment for me that I was not allowed to continue doing the job I had done since 1988.

Q. Around the same period of time, were you witness to a speech made before a large group of JNA soldiers that caused you concern?

A. Sometime in the autumn, I think it was October, I was part of a team that had the task of carrying out the mobilisation of a brigade in Bijeljina. I remember that Colonel Novica Simic had been designated a commander of that brigade, and after mobilisation the brigade was to march and take part in war operations in the area of Okucani and Gradiska. We ¹⁸⁸⁷⁵ had various tasks to do with mobilisation, and at the time I was one of the officers in charge of mobilisation. I had been completely removed from my previous duties and sidelined and sent to a completely different department. The mobilisation went on for two days, and one battalion of that brigade was mobilised from the area of Bijeljina and its surrounding area, while another battalion came from the area of Sabac and the surrounding villages, and the third one was from Sremska Mitrovica and the surrounding area.

The battalions arriving from Serbia were wearing JNA uniforms, but 90 per cent of them were not wearing on their caps the insignia worn by the JNA. Instead, they had Chetnik insignia. There was no reaction to this. The leader of our team did not react. We carried out the mobilisation, we formed the brigade. And at about 1500 hours, the brigade was lined up. At this line-up the leader of my team received a report. He was at the rank of general. And he held a speech. We called this moral, political preparation of the brigade for carrying out their task. He did not greet the brigade with the greeting that had previously been used in the JNA. He did not say, "Comrade soldiers, I greet you" but he started with, "God help you brave men." Then he said, "You are brave Serbian heroes who are to set out from here to protect and defend the Serbian people in the Republic of Croatia." And he said other things to that effect, but this is what I remember.

My colleagues and I, even those who were Serbs, were surprised by this speech.

Q. Sir, just a few questions regarding this event. Can you tell us, ¹⁸⁸⁷⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁷⁷ how many men are ordinarily in a brigade?

A. That depends on the brigade. This was a light brigade, and it numbers about 1.500 to 2.000 men.

Q. So the speech that you're describing for us now was in front of 1.500 to 2.000 men; is that correct?

A. Yes, precisely so.

Q. You described that the people that were mobilised from Serbia had different headgear on than was ordinarily worn by the JNA. Would that have been considered a violation of JNA regulations?

A. The soldiers who were mobilised in the area of Sabac and Sremska Mitrovica, a large number of them did not wear the Titovka caps as were worn by JNA members. They were wearing Sajkaca, another type of cap, and on those caps they didn't have the five-cornered star but a Chetnik badge.

Q. And would that have been in violation of JNA regulations?

A. Under normal conditions, this could not have happened. But under those conditions, when already things were -- this was certainly a very, very serious violation of the rules and regulations in the Yugoslav People's Army at the time. And before that people would be held responsible and sent to prison for such an act.

Q. With respect to the content of the speech that was made to these men, would that have been considered an appropriate way to address members of the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. This was the first time that I heard anyone addressing a unit of the still-JNA in that way.

Secondly, never until then had I heard anything like that being ¹⁸⁸⁷⁸ said to a unit that was being prepared for an assignment, even in peacetime. I had never heard a speech along those lines before.

Q. Sir, I want to now draw your attention to another subject. Did you become aware during the course of your official duties of members of the Territorial Defence from the Republic of Serbia being deployed outside of the Republic of Serbia?

A. While performing my duties, I learnt and saw members of the Territorial Defence from the Republic of Serbia being used or deployed in territories outside the Republic of Serbia. A brigade of the Territorial Defence of Loznica on a number of occasions would come from Loznica to where I was located to rest there, to be replenished, spend the night, and from there it would go on to perform wartime assignments in the Republic of Croatia.

Similarly, I know that a battalion of the Territorial Defence from the Republic of Serbia during the attack on Zvornik was used for that attack.

Q. Now, just so the record is clear, in what republic is Loznica?

A. Loznica is in the Republic of Serbia.

Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what is your understanding of what has to be done or who has to give approval before members of one republic's Territorial Defence can be deployed outside of that republic.

A. The Territorial Defence in Yugoslavia was formed at the level of republics and there was a republican staff of the Territorial Defence which was subordinated to the political leadership, virtually to the president of the republic, and the republican staff was subordinated in ¹⁸⁸⁷⁹ all of Yugoslavia's republics to the presidents of the republics.

Q. I want to draw your attention now to another topic. Were you aware during the course of your official duties that there was an effort to take the arms from the territorial depots in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. An order was issued by the general staff of the Army of Bosnia -- no, an order was issued by the general staff of the JNA that all the weapons of the Territorial Defence which used to be stored in the warehouses of the TO, it was secured there, cleaned, and used during military exercises, that it should be seized from the Territorial Defence and placed in warehouses under the control of the JNA. This was carried out 100 per cent in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, almost also in Croatia but they didn't manage to do that in Slovenia because the Slovenes did not agree.

Q. To your knowledge, in the area of which you have knowledge, was this done uniformly despite the different ethnic compositions of the respective municipalities?

A. The weapons of the Territorial Defence were seized and placed under the control and in the warehouses of the JNA uniformly regardless of ethnic affiliation, of ethnicity.

Q. Did you later learn that some of these weapons were redistributed after they had been taken and placed in the control of the JNA?

A. In the spring of 1992, in February, March, weapons of the TO started to be issued and transported from JNA warehouses and started to be distributed mostly to municipal staffs of the Territorial Defence in municipalities inhabited by Serbs. ¹⁸⁸⁸⁰

Q. How did you learn this?

A. I personally saw the loading of weapons and columns driving the weapons away, columns of vehicles.

Q. Can you name some of the specific locations that you have personal knowledge were armed in this way?

A. From my location, weapons were taken to Vlasenica, Sekovici, Lopare, Ugljevik. That is what I saw, the columns leaving and the weapons being loaded. This was roughly around March 1992.

Q. Now, the Chamber has already heard evidence regarding withdrawal of troops from Slovenia and Croatia. I want to ask you not to focus on the withdrawal itself, but can you comment on your observations regarding where the withdrawing troops, if they did, where they took up positions in Bosnia.

A. Mostly the units that were coming from the Republic of Slovenia and the Republic of Croatia would come to Bosnia-Herzegovina, where they were deployed. In the area where I was stationed, a very strong unit arrived, known as the 4th Armoured Brigade from Jastrebarsko, in Croatia, and it was deployed mostly in locations where the municipalities with a majority Serb population were located. I can say that this brigade consisted of a battalion of tanks, T-84 tanks, and two battalions had T-55. And they were deployed -- one battalion was in the area of Sekovici and the villages in Sekovici municipality; one battalion from Zvornik towards Bijeljina; and a third battalion secured the airport.

Q. Can you tell us how many tanks would be in a battalion of tanks?

A. A battalion consists of 31 tanks. ¹⁸⁸⁸¹

Q. And as best you can recall, what were -- what was the time period when this occurred?

A. This brigade arrived in the autumn of 1991, and I know that the brigade commander, together with the other commanders in that area of responsibility, was received by the president of that municipality, which was the largest municipality in that area, towards New Year's Eve.

Q. Did there come a time when the primary warehouses in your command were emptied and the goods therein transported to somewhere else?

A. Regarding the warehouses, the commands, and the units in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, attempts were made to avoid all the weaknesses and omissions made by the JNA in Slovenia and especially in Croatia. Namely, all warehouses and all units and commands that were in areas with mixed populations or majority Croatian or Bosniak populations, that those warehouses be moved from there and relocated to areas with majority Serb populations. The same applied to all headquarters or commands. They, too, were relocated to areas and towns with a majority Serb population. And by the end of March 1992, this process had been completed.

Q. What was the reaction of the officers in your command to these events, this transfer of troops and transfer of munitions?

A. In those days, we non-Serb officers had already realised that something was in the offing in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well. It became clear to us in the first place because not a single non-Serb officer went together with his high command to a new location, but usually non-Serb officers, and also Serb officers who were married to a Croat or a Bosniak, ¹⁸⁸⁸² ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁸³ would remain at the old location of the command and would perform subsidiary activities.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I address the Chamber before I put this next exhibit to the witness?

The witness very recently has provided a videotape to the Office of the Prosecutor. In fact, the copies for disclosure won't be available until 9.00 tomorrow morning. I just at this point seek to mark it for identification, ask the witness a couple of questions regarding its origin, and then when a transcript is available and when both sides have had an opportunity to view it, at that point possibly tender the exhibit. But simply marked for identification at this stage.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that this exhibit, which is tab 5 of Prosecution 425, be shown to the witness.

Q. Sir, I ask you: Yesterday, did you view a copy of a tape that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor recently?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is that the copy that you're holding in your hand?

A. Yes, it is. Yes.

Q. How do you know that that's the copy?

A. Because I reviewed it and I signed it on the 8th of April, 2003.

Q. Can you just in a sentence or two summarise for the Chamber, what is this tape? What's contained on this tape?

A. On this tape the commander of the 2nd Military District, General Colonel Kukanjac, in June 1992 is giving an interview to Risto Djogo, a ¹⁸⁸⁸⁴ journalist of the Serbian television station SRNA. What is important regarding this tape - and I shall put it briefly --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to -- I'm going to interrupt, if I may. I think we may need to consider the admissibility of this tape before we go any further. When we've got a transcript, we can look at it and decide whether it's admissible or not. I notice the type of evidence it is. There are sometimes objections. It may be in this case there won't be, but we ought to consider it before we go any further or hear any other evidence about it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: But we'll mark it for identification.

MR. GROOME: Can I just ask him how he came into possession of the tape?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Can you please tell us how you came into possession of this tape.

A. This tape was a recording from the Serbian television SRNA programme.

Q. And during the course of your duties, were you familiar with the voice -- did you have interaction with Lieutenant General -- or General Colonel Kukanjac?

A. I worked with General Kukanjac for many years.

Q. And is that his voice that's on the tape?

A. His voice, his image.

Q. Thank you. I want to now draw your attention to the referendum in ¹⁸⁸⁸⁵ Bosnia-Herzegovina in March of 1992. Can you please tell us what your reaction and the reaction of some of the other soldiers in your command was to this referendum.

A. First of all, in those days I didn't have any soldiers under my command because, as I had told you, I had been sidelined to a less significant position. I can say that most of the officers in my command, even some Serbs, voted at that referendum. And in view of the developments and the course of events in Yugoslavia, it was quite normal for such a referendum to be held in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina when all the other attempts, the attempt at confederation or nothing else was successful, Croatia and Slovenia had already been granted independence, so that we considered it normal.

JUDGE MAY: We've already heard evidence about this. I think we will deal with what the witness himself saw or heard.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I want to draw your attention now to the latter part of May 1992, after the JNA officially withdrew from Bosnia. Can you describe for us what, if any, personal knowledge you have regarding the involvement of the Yugoslav army in Bosnia after that date and time.

A. After the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the virtual cessation of its existence as the Yugoslav People's Army on the 4th or whether it was the 19th of May that it became the Army of Yugoslavia, I am familiar with the participation of units of the Army of Yugoslavia in activities in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. ¹⁸⁸⁸⁶

Q. Can you please tell us the specific instances which you have knowledge about.

A. First of all, I can say that the involvement of the Novi Sad Corps occurred on several occasions in the area of the corridor, Posavina Corridor, especially in October 1992, when the Posavski corridor was being secured and broadened. And this fact was confirmed by an officer who, during the operation of the Novi Sad Corps, was captured together with three other soldiers and who was interrogated by our organs and he confirmed that he belonged to the Novi Sad Corps. And this same person several months later was exchanged.

Q. Are there any other examples of which you have personal knowledge?

A. I know about this and I had personal contact with this major. I also am aware of the participation of the Uzice Corps in the region of Skelani, near Bratunac, and Srebrenica, also the involvement of the Uzice Corps in the region of Gorazde and in those places in -- along the Drina River Valley. And it is known for certain that those units were under the direct command of General Ojdanic, as he was the commander of the Uzice Corps.

Q. I would ask you to be as precise as possible in telling us when it was that the Uzice Corps was involved in these different areas.

A. The Uzice Corps in the area of Skelani and Gorazde participated from May 1992 up until about July 1992. That is the information I received from my intelligence organs.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the question of paramilitaries. Can you please describe what you know about the use of ¹⁸⁸⁸⁷ paramilitaries in some of the events in Bosnia.

A. In the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as in the territory of the Republic of Croatia, the event that I described in Mirkovci, the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina started with the infiltration and activities of these paramilitary units. The first such unit, very well organised unit, very well trained and very well organised, was infiltrated from the Republic of Serbia into Bosnia and Herzegovina in the region of Bijeljina, and we are aware of the event that occurred in Bijeljina so that I don't have to describe it.

Also, the use of these paramilitary units - I would never call them paramilitary, I'd call them special, well-trained units - they were used throughout the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the very use of that unit in 1995, when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was about to liberate Bijeljina, Arkan's brigade arrived, joined in, and virtually halted the further progress of the units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at a most important point of the line.

Q. Can you describe, based upon your military experience, what function these special troops performed in the military plans or the military events as you became aware of them.

A. Again, I won't call them anything but special units. And their task was the same as during the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina; at the beginning of the war, to infiltrate certain areas, shall we say Bijeljina Zvornik, to cause chaos there, to kill 30, 50, or several civilians, mostly men of some prestige. That was always done, that people of repute be liquidated in a particular town. To loot, to cause disruption and ¹⁸⁸⁸⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁸⁹ thereby lead to JNA units blocking the area and in fact taking part in the occupation of those areas.

Q. Was the command that you were part of in the JNA aware of the presence of and the activities of these special units, as you call them?

A. As soon as the first unit arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the command, of which I was a member, knew about it, knew that the unit had arrived from the Republic of Serbia, and what it had done in Bijeljina.

Q. What was your -- the position of your commander or the commander of your corps regarding these special units?

A. The commander of the corps at the time, together with units of the Yugoslav People's Army, as it was still the Yugoslav People's Army, did not react or respond at all to the activities of this special unit. There was no reaction to the fact that from another state, which was by then another state, a unit had been infiltrated and had actually committed a crime against the civilian population, though this was the duty of the Yugoslav People's Army to do so because it said in black letters in our rules that in addition to the protection of the integrity of Yugoslavia, it was the task of the JNA to protect the security and safety of the population of Yugoslavia.

Q. I want to draw your attention to Bijeljina. The Chamber has heard extensive evidence on what has happened in Bijeljina. I want you to describe for the Chamber to the extent you're able what resources of the JNA were present in Bijeljina or in the vicinity of Bijeljina at the time of the end of March, early April 1992.

A. In Bijeljina itself, the division command was stationed. From ¹⁸⁸⁹⁰ Zvornik toward Sepak-Janja, most of the 2nd Battalion of the 4th Armoured Brigade were deployed. At the entrance to Bijeljina, from one direction -- in any event all the approaches to Bijeljina were blocked by units of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Can you assist us by putting in very simple terms the number -- or the size of the JNA presence there. Maybe simply by telling us the approximate number of men that would have been deployed and the different types of equipment that would have been deployed.

A. In Bijeljina itself, there weren't many men in the barracks itself. There may have been 100 or a little over. I know that for certain. Less than 200. But around Bijeljina, there were deployed about 18 tanks and three infantry and one motorised battalion.

Q. And what would comprise -- or what would a motorised battalion be comprised of?

A. A motorised battalion mostly consists of infantry units on motor vehicles, so it's an infantry battalion -- a motorised infantry battalion. As for weaponry, it has all infantry weapons; it has 82-millimetre mortars, 120-millimetre mortars, and anti-aircraft guns of 40 millimetres.

Q. According to the rules and regulations of the Yugoslav People's Army, what would have been the required response if, given this presence, there was an incursion of an armed non-regular force of men?

A. According to the regulations and the tasks of the JNA, my commander, according to all the rules and regulations then in force, should have issued an order that this group should be arrested and placed under control. ¹⁸⁸⁹¹

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the latter part of the first week in April 1992. Did you see on the television a video clip of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic's visit to Bijeljina?

A. After the events in Bijeljina, the massacre that was carried out, Biljana Plavsic, a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, arrived there, as well as Fikret Abdic, a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Colonel General Prasovic arrived, the chief of staff of the 2nd Military District. I saw Biljana Plavsic embracing and kissing the man who had carried out the massacre in Bijeljina. I saw Colonel General Prasovic practically reporting to Arkan and praising him for having completed his task well instead of doing what I have just mentioned, arresting the entire group.

Q. The 2nd Military District, over what area did that military district have responsibility?

A. The 2nd Military District was established after the dissolution of the 5th Military District, which was the Zagreb district. It had its seat in Sarajevo, and Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac was at its head. The Chief of Staff was General Prasovic, and its area of responsibility was the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, parts of the Knin Krajina, parts of Slavonia and Baranja, and practically the territory as far as the Danube and the Drina Rivers.

Q. I want to now ask you to look at a video clip.

MR. GROOME: If I might say to the Chamber, the portion of the video that I'd like to witness to comment on goes by very quickly. So I've actually made two stills of the video, and I would like to show the ¹⁸⁸⁹² stills first so that when the video does play, everyone in the court will be attuned to the moment in time that I will ask the witness to speak about.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at the monitor in front of you.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask the usher to set it up for Sanction.

Q. Do you recognise the photograph before you?

A. On this photograph, I recognise the chief of the 2nd Military District, General Prasovic, with his hand raised in salute, reporting to Arkan.

On this picture, he is greeting Arkan after reporting to him.

Q. And are both these photographs from a video of this event?

A. These photographs were shown on the television of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the same day.

Q. I'm going to ask that the clip be played, and I will ask for your comments afterwards.

MR. GROOME: And I would note that this is a clip from Serbian television, and this is Prosecution Exhibit 425, tab 4.

[Videotape played]

A. Here we can see again the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Military District in the centre, Lieutenant General Prasovic. To his right is Fikret Abdic, and to his left is Biljana Plavsic.

MR. GROOME: I want to now ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 425, tab 2. I'd ask that the original B/C/S version be handed to the witness.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this document, in particular ¹⁸⁸⁹³ the person who authored the document.

A. This is a document that was drawn up every day, and by 2000 hours it had to be sent to the superior command. This was a daily operative report sent by the command to its superior command.

Q. I'd like you to read the first -- the first sentence following the number 2. If you could just read that aloud for us, the first sentence of number 2.

A. "The combat readiness of corps units ensures fulfilment of the task. All units are at the highest level of combat readiness, especially the forces of Operative Group 1 and those in the Bijeljina Garrison."

Q. Please stop. I just want to ask you to comment on that one sentence. Does that sentence indicate that the JNA in the Bijeljina Garrison was at full capacity or full combat readiness?

A. According to this report by the commander dispatching this, the units in the Bijeljina area are fully manned, fully equipped with materiel and equipment, and they are in a state of full combat readiness.

Q. Based on your experience, would the Bijeljina Garrison at this state of readiness been equipped and able to have dealt with the incursion of Arkan and his men into the Bijeljina area?

A. The units that are in Bijeljina, not to mention those in the immediate vicinity of Bijeljina near Janja where there was a large number of tanks, could very easily have dealt with this special purpose unit brought by Arkan which carried out an aggression and which was armed neither with tanks nor with APCs. They had mainly light weapons and anti-aircraft guns with single-barrel and three-barrel guns. So there ¹⁸⁸⁹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ¹⁸⁸⁹⁵ would have been no problem for the JNA units, those in the barracks, to have dealt with Arkan.

Q. I'd ask you now to read the first sentence following the number 4.

A. "The situation in the territory is extremely complex. The town of Bijeljina is controlled by the SDS and Arkan's men, who do not even allow our anti-tank unit to reach certain positions in the town."

Q. Can I ask for your comment on that sentence.

A. I have information from a lieutenant colonel who was a commanding officer that there were two tanks in Bijeljina, and with one tank and one platoon of soldiers he had tried to go out of the barracks and he had been slapped by Arkan. His superior command ordered him to return to barracks.

Q. I want to draw your attention to two other sentences in the document, the next one being the first sentence following the number 8, "Conclusion."

A. "The security and political situation in the corps' zone of responsibility is very complex and in certain areas it's even critical (Bosanski Brod and Bijeljina). There is a real danger that the situation might considerably deteriorate in the municipalities of Zvornik, Tuzla, Zivinice and Brcko, including the threat of inter-ethnic conflicts with incalculable consequences."

Q. As a matter of ordinary course of operations for the JNA, would the chief of staff have been made aware of this commander's assessment of the situation in these municipalities mentioned in this document?

A. The chief of staff had to be completely aware of the situation because he was the one planning and conducting combat operations. ¹⁸⁸⁹⁶

Q. And the last sentence I would ask you to read is the last sentence of the document, just above the commander's name and signature.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the impression that there is something unclear here. I understood Mr. Groome to be asking whether the chief of the general staff of the JNA had to be aware of this, and the witness was speaking of the chief of staff of a lower-level unit. To clear up this misunderstanding, I ask for clarification.

JUDGE MAY: If you can clarify it, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I was asking you about the chief of the general staff. Can you please comment on whether he would have been made aware of the situation under the ordinary course of operations.

A. In principle, according to all the military rules and regulations then in force in the JNA, the chief of staff was the highest-ranking officer in charge of a staff and he was responsible for the planning and execution of all military operations, and from the highest to the lowest level, the chief of staff would have to be completely informed of the whole situation on the ground and the situation in the units of the JNA.

Q. Now could I ask you to read the last sentence of the document.

A. "The measures of heightened combat readiness in commands and units have been taken to ensure adequate protection of people and lives, weapons and equipment --" "The measures taken of heightened combat readiness in commands and units ensure adequate protection of people and lives, weapons ¹⁸⁸⁹⁷ and equipment in all the units of the corps."

Q. Would this line -- would this particular sentence indicate that it was this commander's view that he was in a position to adequately protect the people and lives of the people within his area of responsibility?

A. In my personal opinion, when it says here "adequate protection of people and lives," that the commander who sent this combat report was referring to his men and his units, that he was not referring to the population in his area of responsibility.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask now that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 425, tab 3.

Q. This is a telegram. I want to draw your attention to a handwritten note on the telegram. Do you recognise the handwriting of that handwritten note?

A. Yes, I know the handwriting very well. I have seen it many times. I also know the signature; I recognise it. The handwriting belongs to Lieutenant General Milutin Kukanjac, the commander of the 2nd Military District.

Q. I'm going to ask you to read a portion of this telegram. I'm going to ask you to read the first line, and I will, if you don't mind, interrupt you about halfway through it.

A. "I hereby inform you that in Mali Zvornik the chief negotiator with the representatives of the Zvornik Municipal Assembly and the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik was Arkan. The negotiations were also attended by Captain Dragan Obrenovic as well as Alija and Abdulah and Jovo Mijatovic. Arkan was the chief negotiator on behalf of the other side, and two ¹⁸⁸⁹⁸ representatives were previously beaten up. Zvornik needs to lay down its arms, and the Crisis Staff of the Zvornik Municipal Assembly should make a decision on the ultimatum by 1600 hours. I do not think that the ultimatum will be accepted and I believe that this will lead to an unprecedented massacre of the unprotected and innocent population and to horrible environmental consequences as a result of suicidal action by the probably desperate --" it probably means desperate -- "population. I send you this dispatch as a cry to heaven and an appeal to you to in line with the most illustrious traditions of the JNA and the highest moral norms of our people to protect the --" it says here "respectable population" -- "from a disaster --"

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says -- it doesn't say "respectable," it says "endangered," the endangered population.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one letter is missing. All right. All right. "Endangered."

"... the endangered population from a catastrophe such as they have never before experienced, probably, in their history." Experienced.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Thank you. Who is the author of this cable?

A. This telegram was written by Izet Mehinagic. He was the director of the public company for the construction of the Tuzla-Zvornik railway and a great friend of General Milutin Kukanjac. I know that they socialised while the gentleman was in Tuzla.

Q. Can you briefly describe the resources of the JNA that were in the ¹⁸⁸⁹⁹ area of Zvornik and Mali Zvornik that would have been in a position to have interceded when Arkan arrived in Zvornik.

A. I said that when the 4th Armoured Brigade arrived from Jastrebarsko one battalion of that brigade was deployed in Zvornik, and the brigade on its own could have challenged Arkan. This battalion of the armoured brigade on its own could have dealt with him effectively. However, in the vicinity of Zvornik, there were far more significant units, some 30 or 40 kilometres away. These were motorised units, they were well armed, and they could have arrived in Zvornik very quickly. And had such an order been issued, they could have responded and prevented the massacre that was carried out in Zvornik.

Q. Sir, before --

JUDGE KWON: If you could read the handwriting portion also.

MR. GROOME: That was my next question.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Could you please read the handwritten note of General Kukanjac.

A. "To Jankovic to take all measures to protect citizens in Zvornik."

Q. To your knowledge, were --

A. First it says, "Inform General Jankovic." That's precisely what it says. "Inform General Jankovic to take all measures to protect citizens in Zvornik."

Q. In your view, were all measures taken to protect the citizens of Zvornik?

A. We know what the result was of the activities of Arkan and the ¹⁸⁹⁰⁰ other units attacking Zvornik. Practically not a single unit of the JNA was activated to prevent what Arkan did in Zvornik.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes. We will allow time for discussion of the procedural matters concerning the witnesses under Rule 92 bis at half past 1.00. We'll continue with cross-examination after the 20-minutes' adjournment.

--- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my apologies. I neglected to ask a couple of questions regarding cultural property, which this witness has personal knowledge. May I reopen my examination?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, were you ever present or do you have any personal knowledge regarding the destruction of mosques and other cultural property?

A. In the area of responsibility of which I was in command, I was present and I did see quite a number of religious and cultural buildings being blown up or hit by artillery during the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Can I ask you to just list the municipalities where you have this knowledge of cultural property and religious property being destroyed.

A. In the municipality of Gradacac, all the mosques were destroyed, ¹⁸⁹⁰¹ mostly with artillery. In the municipality of Brcko, all the mosques have been destroyed, mostly by being blown up. In Bijeljina municipality, all five mosques were destroyed by planting explosives and blowing them up. In the municipality of Kladanj, the minaret of the mosque was directly hit and destroyed.

Q. Based upon your own personal knowledge, are you aware or were there any indications to you that with respect to the artillery used to damage this religious property, that it was used in such a way that indicated to you that it was not collateral damage but intended damage to the property?

A. Religious property was destroyed not in the course of combat operations but by being directly targeted. That is, the minaret was targeted and they would be cut in half. In a locality called Rahic, the mosque was destroyed by a direct hit with a plane bomb. I was nearby when it was destroyed. So that these religious buildings were not destroyed in the course of combat operations but by intentional destruction of religious buildings so that no trace of them would remain.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: No further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1493, you started your testimony this morning by explaining how plans were made. And as I have noted down here, the words you used were "the danger of a possible internal enemy, that is, extremists of the HDZ"; is that right? ¹⁸⁹⁰²

A. I said that the plan was headed "Engagement of units of which I was in command in the event of the introduction of a state of emergency," and in the text of the order mention was made as a potential internal enemy extremist sections of the HDZ.

Q. Very well. That is what I wish to establish. You received that assignment to prepare the plan in March 1991; is that right?

A. Yes, quite.

Q. Very well. And were you aware of the events in Croatia in 1990 and up until March 1991 when you were assigned to compile that plan? What was going on? What was happening to the Serbs in Croatia up until that date?

A. I do know what was happening in those areas in Croatia. I know of the Balvan or log revolution in the Knin Krajina, I am aware of the events at Plitvice lakes where policemen were killed, and some other such incidents.

Q. And do you know that in precisely that period of time, that is, in 1990 up until March 1991, persecution in the broader sense of Serbs in Croatia were -- was underway? Are you aware of that?

A. As a good portion of Croatia was in the area of responsibility of the unit of which I was a member and I went to areas quite a number of times that were mostly inhabited by Serbs, I do not know of a single example of Serbs being persecuted in Croatia.

Q. In the area of responsibility of the unit of which you were a member, includes the parts of Croatia known as Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem, Pozega, so on. ¹⁸⁹⁰³

A. I am referring precisely to those areas, and I do not know that up until 1991 there was a single case of an organised persecution of the civilian population in those areas.

Q. And do you remember that there were a series of silent liquidations of individual Serbs in those areas? Do you recall the activities of groups headed by Tomislav Mercep in Eastern Slavonia? Do you still remember the secret arming of the HDZ? Do you remember the dismissals, especially from the police, the state administration and public services of --

JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with these one at a time. So the first question was -- just a moment. It's -- I know you say it's cumulative, but the witness can't answer a list of questions. He can only answer one question at a time.

Now, the first question is: Do you know about the liquidation of individual Serbs? Was there any, to your knowledge?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the knowledge I have, the authorities in power at the time in the Republic of Croatia did not in an organised manner carry out silent individual liquidations. If there were any such liquidations, there may have been settling of accounts between debtors or political opponents. But as I was saying, in the area of responsibility in which I was working and living, there is -- it is quite certain that there were no organised liquidations of Serbs by non-Serbs. I am saying this up until May 1991.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. What about these other tendencies that I mentioned? ¹⁸⁹⁰⁴ Do you remember that Serbs were expelled from the constitution as a constituent nation? Do you remember the decision on the secession of Croatia? Do you remember --

JUDGE MAY: One moment. Before we get on to the political matters, you were asked about the activities of Tomislav Mercep. Do you know anything about them?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regarding the activities of the mentioned group, I know nothing about them.

JUDGE MAY: Or it's suggested the -- there was a secret arming of the HDZ. Do you know anything about that, if there was?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regarding secret arming, that is common knowledge that there were -- that it did take place.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Did you in the JNA have then and up until then, when you were assigned this task of preparing the plan, that there was a resurrection of the Ustasha movement in Croatia and that forcible secession from Yugoslavia was about to take place?

A. Up until our work on that plan, that is, until 1991, I was not aware that in the area where I was a single unit was formed or any organised Ustasha groupings.

Q. So you knew nothing about secession?

A. Yes, I did know about secession.

Q. And did you know anything about large-scale dismissals of Serb members of the police and public services?

A. In the police of the Republic of Croatia, after 1991 I did come ¹⁸⁹⁰⁵ across in Zagreb and in Slavonski Brod and in Osijek policemen of Serb ethnicity. Probably there were dismissals of those who did not abide by the laws and regulations.

Q. Very well. A moment ago you said that you did know about secession; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you in the army consider it to be the duty of the JNA to protect the integrity of the country? Is that one of its priority duties?

A. I said that the Yugoslav People's Army, its first and foremost task was to protect the unity and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.

Q. Why, then, was it not logical for the army to prepare a plan to be able to carry out that task, to protect the integrity of the country, which unfortunately didn't succeed but at least to try to protect it? Why is that unusual?

A. According to my modest knowledge as a high-ranking officer of the JNA, it is my conviction that the top-level military leadership came under the very powerful influence of the political leadership and it did not undertake the measures which the general staff, headed by the federal secretary, should have undertaken because it succumbed to influence and the orders of the political leadership that was at the time at the head of the state.

Q. Do you know that then, that is, in March 1991 and before March 1991 and even after March 1991, this top-level military leadership was by ethnicity least of all Serbian?

A. The chief of the general staff in those days was Adzic. ¹⁸⁹⁰⁶

Q. A Serb from Bosnia?

A. A Serb from Gacko and Nevesinje.

Q. The federal secretary was Veljko Kadijevic, from Imotsko, who was from a mixed Serb-Croat marriage.

A. He was a Yugoslav.

Q. Yes, a Yugoslav. And who was the commander of your army district?

A. For a short period, Spirkovksi was the commander of the 1st Military District and he was replaced shortly after that.

Q. And who was commander of the 5th one in Zagreb?

A. At first it was a Croat and he was replaced shortly.

Q. When was that?

A. In 1991.

Q. So in 1991 he wasn't the commander.

A. In 1991, Spegelj was no longer the commander.

Q. So he was commander only in 1990, was he?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Let us move on to the next matter that you addressed at the very beginning of your examination-in-chief. On the 2nd of May, you were given an order and went to Vinkovci with a joint detachment; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. This was a joint detachment consisting of five platoons, as you said, and the strength was about 120 men; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the assignment you were given was to prevent inter-ethnic ¹⁸⁹⁰⁷ conflicts in the area to which you were dispatched; is that right? That is, the broader area around Vinkovci; is that right?

A. Yes, from Vinkovci towards Borovo Selo.

Q. And what happened in Borovo Selo immediately prior to that? Are you aware of the incursion of the police that opened fire on the citizens of Borovo Selo?

A. I am aware of that.

Q. And this was their reaction; the sending of two JNA detachments came after that.

Q. And were you aware that having been sent there for that particular reason, what was the reason for the police to open fire on peasants in Borovo Selo?

A. Because fire was opened at the police.

Q. I see. So the police came to Borovo Selo for it to be fired upon.

A. The police was already in Borovo Selo.

Q. Don't you know that the police came to Borovo Selo in two buses and several other vehicles, came out of those vehicles and opened fire quite unreasonably on the population?

A. Yes, I know that. But the police had come to intervene after a conflict had broken out.

Q. Who was the conflict between in Borovo Selo?

JUDGE MAY: There's no point, Mr. Milosevic. This witness has no direct evidence of these events in Borovo Selo. There's no point really arguing with him about it. Let's move on to something he does know about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well, Mr. May, I ¹⁸⁹⁰⁸ will move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the night between the 2nd and 3rd of May you arrived in Vinkovci, and then in the morning you started off to Mirkovci and you then described the incidents in the area between Mirkovci and Jankovci; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You explained that in front of Mirkovci you came across a roadblock manned by a total of three men; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any other barricades in Mirkovci on the way out towards Jankovci?

A. Upon leaving the village of Mirkovci, there were no barricades.

Q. Apart from those three men and their commander who they called to talk to you, did you see any other men with arms?

A. According to the report of my military police patrol, they -- from a house that was burning, they saw four armed men dressed in the same uniforms as those at the roadblock.

Q. Very well. So you established as the head of that unit, you had three men at the roadblock and their commander, and you also established that there were another four men that were seen in Jankovci; is that right?

A. I saw that, but from the president of the local community of Mirkovci, at a meeting with them, I was told that a unit had come to Mirkovci, a large unit, which had spread out in the village. ¹⁸⁹⁰⁹

Q. Did you see that unit?

A. I did not see the unit. As I say, I only saw the three men at the roadblock -- or rather, four, and I was informed by the patrol that there were another four who had set fire to the house.

Q. And you had a detachment 120 strong, a regular JNA unit. You say that you saw men in some sort of Chetnik uniforms. And we have now established that you saw three of them, or rather, four of them -- plus four, a total of seven. So tell me, please --

A. Eight. I'm sorry, eight.

Q. Fine, eight. Why did you not -- considering them to have provoked the conflict -- was that your conclusion, that they had provoked the conflict?

A. My conclusion when I came across the roadblock was not such that those men at the barricades had caused anything. People were lying down next to the machine-guns and they had bandoliers on them and the machine-guns were pointing towards Vinkovci, that is, the direction from which my detachment was coming, and they were not opening fire. But obviously those other men were firing where I had sent the police patrol, and they set the house on fire, so it was them who had provoked the clash.

Q. But as far as I was able to see, they were members of one and the same unit, weren't they, they were one and the same group?

A. I don't understand.

Q. So these three at the roadblock, and the four you saw burning a house in Jankovci, they were surely members of the same group? ¹⁸⁹¹⁰

A. They were not the same group because these ones remained at the roadblock, and the four of them who were burning the house, they fled -- or rather, withdrew towards Mirkovci.

Q. But you were already between Mirkovci and Jankovci, so you were in a sense in control of Mirkovci by then.

A. I had passed through Mirkovci. I've explained that. And the head of the column reached the village of Jankovci. When I saw the house on fire and I heard the shooting, I explained that I stopped the column and I ordered the detachment to deploy in combat formation.

Q. Tell me, as you were a high-ranking officer then and later, was it clear to you that this was a paramilitary formation?

A. The one at the barricade and the other four you mean?

Q. Yes, both.

A. It was clear to me that this was not a unit belonging to the JNA.

Q. So it could have only been a paramilitary unit or a group of criminals or something like that.

A. Yes, precisely what is known as a paramilitary formation. But I think it was a well-organised unit since this commander who came out to the roadblock and said that he would let me through when he is given permission from his commander in Sremska Mitrovica, so it seems -- it appeared that the control and command system in the unit was well established.

Q. Let us not talk about the control and command in a unit of eight men. But tell me, since you were sent there to re-establish order, why didn't you disarm and arrest those men? ¹⁸⁹¹¹

A. I didn't do that because I would have probably provoked a conflict between my detachment and that unit.

Q. But wasn't that your job to do that, to -- since you yourself say that you were given the assignment to restore order, isn't it the job of an armed group of soldiers of the JNA who have the assignment to restore order to disarm such a unit and arrest those men? Why were you going there otherwise?

A. I went there in order to prevent an inter-ethnic conflict between two villages of different ethnicities.

Q. Well, was it clear from what you say that those people were participating in the conflict?

A. Precisely so.

Q. Well, why didn't you stop them?

A. Because that was not my task.

Q. So your task did not include the use of your unit but only an inspection of the situation.

A. And preventing a conflict between the inhabitants of Mirkovci and Jankovci.

Q. Well, who was it who was having a fight among the inhabitants of Mirkovci and Jankovci? Was it a fight between Serbs, among themselves, or was it Croatian forces and Serbian forces that were in conflict there?

A. When I arrived, there was no conflict of local people from Mirkovci and Jankovci. I explained that a house was on fire. In the basement of that house -- or rather, on the ground floor there was an inn and the local Serbs whose houses were right next to that inn - there were ¹⁸⁹¹² four Serb houses - they explained to me that this group had arrived, driven out all the people who happened to be in the pub, driven out the owner of the house, that they had then set the house on fire, and that they were causing disruption and disorder. So the local people asked to be protected from that unit.

Q. So the Serbs living there asked you to protect -- asked you to protect them from them.

A. Yes.

Q. But still you didn't arrest them. You have just said you didn't want to arrest them in order not to cause a conflict between the two villages. You were informed that these were not local people, that this was a group that had arrived from elsewhere, and yet you did not disarm and arrest them, even though they had come from elsewhere. And then it was clear that this would not have caused a conflict between the two villages.

A. Well, the tactics were to introduce a paramilitary unit to cause disruption, to cause a conflict, and then to send in larger units, and that was a scenario. Very soon after I left, the unit -- there was an attack from Mirkovci to Jankovci and Jankovci was practically occupied.

Q. Well, was that not an even stronger reason for you to intervene?

A. I did introduce order there. The shooting stopped while I was there.

Q. Very well. Evidently we cannot agree on this.

A. It's precisely because I introduced order that I was replaced and another commander was brought in. After a few days of his arrival, a ¹⁸⁹¹³ conflict broke out where the detachment I had arrived in participated in the conflict and practically blockaded the village of Jankovci and then made it possible for that situation to be forced out, for that population to be expelled.

Q. So the detachment you brought there later acted against the civilian population in Jankovci.

A. Yes, together with the paramilitary units.

Q. Well, this seems quite incredible to me. But you sent a written report about what had happened and what you had seen on the ground; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, I sent a regular combat report to my superior command.

Q. Do you have this report?

A. No, I don't. I wasn't allowed to keep it.

Q. You couldn't keep a copy of the report you were sending? It was your report you were sending? You don't have your own report?

A. We never had the right to keep copies of our reports because this was of a strictly confidential nature and it was sent only to the command that had given us our orders.

Q. Very well. So you sent this report, and on the basis of this report, the answer you received was that you should stay there and make sure that the situation was calm; is that correct?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Well, the person who came to replace you, was he of a lower rank than you?

A. He was of the same rank. ¹⁸⁹¹⁴

Q. Of the same rank? And how do you explain the reason for this switch?

A. I didn't have to explain this to anyone. I received an order from my superior commander that I should hand over my duty and return to my home unit.

Q. And you say that your superior officer, when you got back and explained that you had seen some kind of Chetniks, as you say - I've written down the word you used here - that he said to you that this was impossible.

A. He didn't say it was impossible. He said, "You have seen tomcats."

Q. Doesn't this confirm to you that there would have been no conflict had you carried out your task, arrested those people, and performed the task that you were supposed to perform there?

A. There probably would have been a conflict because in that village there were more members of that unit and there would have been an armed conflict, and I was not ready for this, nor was this my task.

Q. So you were not prepared to perform your role?

A. I performed my role very well, and this was recognised by the local inhabitants of the village of Jankovci, the four families of Serb ethnicity who, on the 6th or 7th of May, asked my superior command to send me back to the area.

Q. And what happened? Who was it who decided that you should not be sent back or that the situation should not be cleared up?

A. My superior officer. ¹⁸⁹¹⁵

Q. Very well. So you feel that you performed your task, although you engaged in no operations and that's why you were sent there.

A. I think that my first wartime assignment I carried out with honour and I am proud of this. I have been praised for this by the villagers of Jankovci who sent a letter to my superior command asking me to be sent back there.

Q. Very well. Let's move on to the next event you spoke of. You spoke of the mobilisation of the brigade in Bijeljina, and you said that one of the generals - you said he was a general - gave an unusual address and that he did not behave as members of the JNA were supposed to. What was the name of this general?

A. The general's name was Rajko Lapcic.

Q. Was he the commander of that brigade, or what was he? What's the problem?

A. He was the chief of staff of a high unit.

Q. The chief of staff of a high-level unit.

A. Yes.

Q. In your assessment and according to what you say, his speech ran completely counter to the behaviour expected of a high-ranking JNA officer; is this correct?

A. I made my statement in which I said that this was the first time in my long military career that I heard this kind of greeting and this kind of moral political preparation of soldiers for the execution of their task.

Q. What you heard for the first time was in your opinion against all ¹⁸⁹¹⁶ the rules of the JNA; is that correct?

A. Precisely so.

Q. As you were a high-ranking officer, did you inform your superior command of this and did you initiate what it was your duty to do, an initiative to take measures against such behaviour?

A. I told you that at that time I was no longer holding a high-level post because in September 1991 I was removed from my important post and assigned to an insignificant post in the Department for Mobilisation. Secondly, I can confirm that General Kukanjac was the corps commander in Macedonia, and the same evening, since I knew him well - we'd worked together for a long time - at around midnight I rang him up and informed him of what had happened because previously he had been this man's commander. And I can say this: The gentleman who made the speech was very quickly replaced and moved to Belgrade.

Q. Well, explain how this was possible. As far as I could understand, you phoned General Kukanjac in Macedonia to inform him of this and you did not go to the authority that was in charge and which was certainly accessible to you to inform them of this and to ask that appropriate measures be taken.

A. There were higher-ranking officers in that team who should have informed the commander of what had happened, so it was not my duty nor did I have the right to report to my commander about this. And I rang up Kukanjac precisely because we had worked together for a long time, because I knew him well, and because for many years Kukanjac had been in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So I informed him out of friendship and not ¹⁸⁹¹⁷ out of my command duty.

Q. And you had no duty to inform anyone else?

A. Yes, that's what I'm saying, because I was one of the lowest-ranking officers of the 20 of us taking part there. My post was one of the lowest in that team, and the -- others should have reported to the commander.

Q. So if the one whose duty it is doesn't do it, the others don't have to do this?

A. It is not their duty.

Q. Very well. Let's clarify one more point: You explained the use of the Territorial Defence; is that correct? You spoke of the Territorial Defence.

A. I explained the chain of command in the Territorial Defence in Yugoslavia.

Q. Is it correct that the republican staff of the Territorial Defence was in charge of the TO in every republic?

A. That's what I said.

Q. Is it correct that the republican Territorial Defence staff of any republic was exclusively subordinate to the general staff of the JNA?

A. The republican TO staff was the republican staff, and it was subordinate to the republican authorities.

Q. Well, I'm saying the opposite. Have you read the law? I tendered this into evidence here.

A. When the weapons were taken from the Territorial Defence and when all the preparations were being made for what would take place, not only ¹⁸⁹¹⁸ were the weapons taken from the Territorial Defence but the law was changed and the republican staffs were placed under the chain of command of the general staff.

Q. So the republican staffs were under the command of the general staff of the JNA.

A. Well, just before the war.

Q. Yes, well, that's what matters. It was the JNA. Did the general staff order that weapons be taken from the TO and that it was not done only in Slovenia?

A. This order came from the top control and command staff.

Q. And you say that weapons were taken, regardless of ethnic affiliation?

A. Yes, that's correct. In the area where I was, regardless of ethnicity, all the weapons were placed under the control of my command.

Q. Of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. In JNA depots, under the guard of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, tell me now: You say in February and March some kind of distribution of weapons to municipal staffs of the Territorial Defence began in areas where there were Serbs. That's what you're saying.

A. I didn't say "some kind of distribution," I said "organised removal of weapons of the Territorial Defence of the municipal staffs," and I listed Sekovic, Vlasenica, Lopare. I -- anyway, in places where the majority population was Serb. It is not "some kind," but it was organised ¹⁸⁹¹⁹ taking of weapons and equipment. Columns were formed, the weapons were transported, and there was a place called MZ where the weapons were distributed. I was personally present at the distribution of such weapons in the village of Sekovici, on the playing field.

Q. Very well. This morning you testified to seeing weapons being driven off, that you saw this personally. Is that correct?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How, then, could you have known where the weapons were being taken? You were at the point from which the weapons were being taken away, so how do you know where they were taken? Were they taken to some safer depots, or were they distributed? You couldn't have been in both places at once.

A. I was also present at places where weapons were distributed. I repeat: In the village of Sekovici, I was present when weapons were distributed.

Q. Let me just look in your statement. I'm following the same order as in this morning's examination-in-chief. Just a moment, please. I have noted it down here. You say that a referendum was held in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You mentioned it this morning, didn't you? Is that right?

A. Yes. It is well known that there was a referendum on the 1st of March. That is common knowledge.

Q. Yes. But you said this morning that it was normal, because, you see, Croatian Slovenia was seceding, so it was only normal for Bosnia and Herzegovina to do the same. However, I hope you have the statement in ¹⁸⁹²⁰ front of you. On page 3, in paragraph 8 of your statement, you say that you, both Serb and non-Serb officers, considered the referendum for an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina held in March 1992 to be a betrayal of SFRY.

A. That is not my statement. I don't have the statement in front of me, but that is not what I said.

Q. Very well. I'll show it to you.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let the witness have the witness statement.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There's no need for us to argue over that. Please find page 3, paragraph 8 and read it, please. Read it out loud.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, to be sure that we're talking about the same document, there are actually two statements, one dated the 20th of April, 2002 and one dated the 22nd of May, 2002. Which statement is Mr. Milosevic referring to?

JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us that, please. Wait. Let's just make sure we've got the right statement. Which statement are you referring to? What's the date, please, on the front?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find it just now, but I think he has it in front of him.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I may be of assistance, Your Honours. I think it is the statement of the 20th of April, 2002. And it ¹⁸⁹²¹ is quite correct what has just been quoted. It is on page 3, second paragraph from the bottom.

Would you be kind enough to read it out.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say first of all that I never made such a statement, as I was one of the first, maybe the first, to go to the ballot box where a vote was being cast for the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Whether it is a slip, an error in the translation...

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Would you be kind enough to read out that very brief paragraph of two lines, please, from your statement.

A. I can't read it, when that is not my statement.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just -- let somebody else read it out, then. Perhaps, Mr. Tapuskovic, you read it so we can hear what it says.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is one sentence, and it reads as follows: "We (Serbian and not Serbian officers of JNA) considered the referendum for the independence of BH which was held in March 1992 to be a betrayal of SFRY." That is what it says.

JUDGE MAY: You've heard what the explanation of the witness is. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, two more minutes and then we'll adjourn.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have heard that he said it wasn't his statement, but we've also heard that I quoted correctly from what I have received as his statement, so I hope that that is not at issue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Also, tell me, Mr. 1493, do you remember that all of us in ¹⁸⁹²² Yugoslavia, in SFRY, considered Bosnia and Herzegovina to be Yugoslavia in miniature, especially and particularly because it was inhabited by three ethnicities?

A. While there was Yugoslavia, such as it was, all of us in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in Yugoslavia were proud of that Yugoslavia. However, after the death of Comrade Tito, after all kinds of changes, this gradually disappeared and what happened happened.

Q. Very well. Tell me, please: For you, without entering into the ground of morality but talking about political, economic material things, was it logical for such a Bosnia and Herzegovina, a Yugoslavia in miniature, composed of three different nations, to separate from Yugoslavia? Was that logical to you? You said you were the first to vote for that.

A. I think that at that polling station I was the first to vote. It was quite logical after the sequence of events that took place and the betrayal by the top political and military leadership. Slovenia was being written off as a state, or rather, a republic, and independence was being granted to it. Croatia -- none of the proposals by members of the Presidencies of the republics in those days for Yugoslavia to remain within its borders, for all peoples to lead normal lives, for it to be organised as a confederation, but exclusivity mostly on the part of the Serbian leadership insisted on Yugoslavia remaining the way they had wanted it to.

JUDGE MAY: We must continue this tomorrow. We have to go on to deal with procedural matters. ¹⁸⁹²³ Mr. Milosevic, you can have an hour and a quarter tomorrow morning to conclude your cross-examination of this witness. It will be yet again longer than the Prosecution.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will you please take into consideration the possibility of giving me a little more time than one hour, 15 minutes.

JUDGE MAY: We'll see how -- we'll see how we get on tomorrow. Witness B-1493, that concludes your evidence for today. We have to deal with some other matters. Would you be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning to conclude your evidence.

[The witness stands down]

MR. NICE: Your Honour, before Mr. McKeon deals with the 92 bis, can I remind the Court, but more particularly the accused, through Your Honours, that tomorrow's witness is to be the financial expert, Mr. Torkildsen, and to alert the accused to the fact that I will probably be very brief in examination-in-chief, not of course in order to restrict the accused to the same amount of limited time that I will take but because that is the appropriate way to deal with expert witnesses wherever that can properly be done. It shall take some time, but not very much time with him, I hope, in chief, and it will then be for the accused to cross-examine him.

The only other general administrative matter I'd make is this: If the Chamber is going to say anything about the examination-in-chief by the ¹⁸⁹²⁴ means of 92 bis or otherwise, although we have pretty well fixed in our order of witnesses and number of witnesses for the period until the Easter break, we are in a position to change and to increase the rate of witnesses for after the Easter break.

JUDGE MAY: We'll have that in mind. Now let us turn to these 92 bis witnesses. The list which I have, 1154, 1168, 1187, 1230, 1232, 1234, and Mr. McKeon has added 1197 and 1210. We'll try and get through as many as we can. Dealing first with 1154, this is a doctor, my note has it, from Beli Manastir in Baranja, who performed a series of autopsies. We've admitted such evidence without cross-examination. In this case, Mr. Kay, any objection to that?

MR. KAY: I don't have any additional observation at all.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Then moving to the next one, 68. This is another witness from Baranja who deals with the arrest of her husband and his mistreatment and subsequent murder and her efforts to find him. Yes. Anything about that one, Mr. McKeon?

MR. McKEON: Just, Your Honour, I would note that this particular witness has already been described by witness -- I'm sorry, the victim has been described by Witness C-25, so this would be cumulative to that testimony which is already before the Trial Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: Perhaps so we can let -- give Mr. Kay a minute or two. 1187 is a very similar witness. Her son was arrested from the same area by, I think, people she describes as two Serbs, although I may ¹⁸⁹²⁵ be wrong about that. And he hadn't been seen since. Again, anything as to that one?

MR. McKEON: Just to -- to add, Your Honour, the Court has already allowed us to put in under 92 bis the testimony of Witness C-1052, which is very similar to this witness except that it involves -- C-1052 involves the first Dalj massacre and this witness essentially provides similar testimony as to the second Dalj massacre.

JUDGE MAY: And is -- is that one, that second witness, required to attend for cross-examination?

MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, if you could deal with those two, please.

MR. KAY: Yes. 11 -- C-1168, which is tab 41, it's cumulative over the white minivan issue, which the Trial Chamber may be aware of by -- from C-25. There's an issue from the -- a JNA captain, which is a matter of hearsay, reporting about the husband.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't know where -- where would we -- can you tell us where that one is? Oh, yes. "My husband had to report twice a day. He told me most of the time he reported to a JNA captain." Yes.

MR. KAY: That's the issue on that.

JUDGE MAY: Well, it's -- it's one sentence. If that sentence was taken out, which as you rightly point out it's hearsay anyway, there's no reason why it shouldn't be admitted without cross-examination.

MR. KAY: The issue of the white minivan is quite an important issue in the case. It features within the indictment as to the taking away of these people. ¹⁸⁹²⁶

JUDGE MAY: And 1187?

MR. KAY: In looking at 1187, I couldn't find any apparent link to C-25 when I was going through the statement and the evidence after a number of -- of careful checks. I may be wrong about it and have missed something of -- of relevance, but I couldn't actually see any link there to that particular witness. I don't know if the Prosecution is able to help the Trial Chamber in relation to that.

JUDGE MAY: Well, it may be something that we'll have to look at. Yes, Mr. McKeon.

MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I was just going to point out that C-25 testified about the arrest of -- of people in the Baranja area. This was a particular victim who was transported as -- as that witness testified about, to Dalj, where other evidence would show that he was subsequently murdered, and that's the connection with C-25.

JUDGE MAY: The next three we're moving to a different area. I'm sorry, were you going to -- did you want to add something?

MR. KAY: I didn't want to add anything to that.

JUDGE MAY: The next three are dealing with I think it's the Saborsko area. I could be wrong. But Poljanac and Saborsko. One deals with -- C-1230, I should say, the first one, deals with an attack on Poljanac, but he identifies the Nis special unit of the JNA. And I suppose, Mr. Kay, you would say that's rather a crucial issue.

MR. KAY: Yes, that's the running objection.

JUDGE MAY: The next one is 1232, the execution, again shelling of the Poljanac, the execution of the witness's husband and father by people ¹⁸⁹²⁷ identified as Serb soldiers. Again, what -- what would you say about that one?

MR. KAY: It's going back to the Babic evidence which, if read, describes Poljanac being attacked in this way and describing in 1991 that there was fighting there. But he only saw it abandoned and destroyed in 1994 and mentions Vukovici. So it's an issue as to how genuinely cumulative this evidence is. It's in the region, but as to the specific place, his evidence was unspecific, we would say.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, anything you want to say about those witnesses?

MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I would just observe that this is -- is at least cumulative in the sense described by the Court on 7 April, in the sense of alleged attacks on villages and killings by the JNA and other Serb or Croatian Serb forces. These villages are all in the same general area as Saborsko, in fact, they're mentioned in the same paragraph of the indictment, and have been referred to by other witnesses and so should be admitted on that basis.

JUDGE MAY: There are two other from Dubrovnik which Mr. McKeon has raised. There's 1210, dealing with a Croat -- a Croatian attack on the JNA in Foca, Dubrovnik, a naval base, and gunboats firing on the town. Again, Mr. Kay, I suppose that's something you would say should be cross-examined.

MR. KAY: Yes, there are heavy references to the JNA in this statement.

JUDGE MAY: And 1197, Mr. McKeon, can you help us as to what this ¹⁸⁹²⁸ is about?

MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour. This particular witness was accused of being an Ustasha because she didn't leave the village like most of the other villagers and will testify about that, and civilians detained in Kumbor. Her 16-year-old son and husband were detained in Morinje and her husband was killed. She was taken to Kumbor camp but only for one day. She will testify about the area of persecution, looting, burning of houses, restrictions on movement, and so forth. The -- the village that she's from, Zvikovica, has been referred to by two other witnesses. That would be Poljanic and Hausvicka.

JUDGE KWON: And her husband was a member of ZNG; right? Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: It's a JNA issue again, reference to this witness being picked up by the JNA and the involvement of the JNA in the area, moving out in October 1992.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we haven't overlooked your submissions or the fact that you come at the end and therefore sometimes get less than everybody else, but we'll hear what you have to say. Do you want to say anything more both these particular witnesses that we are dealing with?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not worth any comment in view of everything that has been done by this illegal prosecution against me in these proceedings and also against my family with their cooperation simply because they're --

JUDGE MAY: No. We are dealing with -- we are dealing with ¹⁸⁹²⁹ specific issues here, and general submissions of that sort are totally irrelevant.

Mr. Nice, there is one thing which I should mention. It concerns you, Mr. Milosevic. It's this: That we have in mind your complaint about your lack of time for preparation. And although we haven't yet got to the bottom of this matter of disclosure, and we're going to do so, we have identified a week in May which you can have free from sitting, and that's the week involving the 14th and 15th of May. It's a very short week, there are only two days. It would seem convenient, in fact, to cancel those two sittings and allow the accused extra time. You'll also have an extra week in April, after Easter, Mr. Milosevic, where we're not sitting. So you'll have more time then.

MR. NICE: And the Court may like to know that the material on disclosure is -- already exists in chart form. We're going to have it further developed and I'll be able to assist with certain observations as to the material that's been coming the accused's way at a convenient time, perhaps tomorrow or Friday.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you add to it, if you haven't, any disclosure since the 31st of January, which I think is the last --

MR. NICE: Oh, yes, certainly.

JUDGE MAY: It's to date.

MR. NICE: It's going to be probably difficult to deal with the precise amount of material that's been duplicative because the whole process of helping the accused by providing him with relevant material a second time makes it complicated to do so, but we'll do our best. ¹⁸⁹³⁰

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll adjourn now. 9.00 tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

the 10th day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.