Milosevic Transcript 2003-04-14

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1 Monday, 14 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Before the witness comes in, there are a few matters

7 relating to his testimony that I'd like to deal with in private session,

8 if I may.

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MR. NICE: I'm going to take things slightly out of order for convenience. If we can go to paragraph 22.

Q. You, Witness B-050, the man Dragan Vasiljkovic, were you able to tell from your early experiences what terms he was on with the man Frenki? A. You mean in the period around 1991?

Q. Yes. What terms were they on? A. Good terms.

Q. Did you see them together? Just yes or no. A. Yes.

Q. Dragan Vasiljkovic at the fortress in Knin, was he associated with a particular unit, and if so, can you give us the name of the unit? A. Those were the units that were trained at the camp, and people privately referred to them as the Knindzas. ¹⁹¹⁷⁷

1 Q. The Knindzas, did that have a technical name so that it should

2 only have been associated with a particular group?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was it used, in your experience, in a more informal way to

5 describe a larger group or cadre?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Namely, all those people --

8 A. The term was used for people mostly who had been trained at the

9 camp. Q. Coming back to paragraph 18. Milan Martic. The first part of your evidence in time, was Milan Martic minister of police? A. I think he was, yes.

Q. And as you understood it, over what bodies did that give him command?

A. All institutions linked to the police. Territorial Defence, the SUP, the MUP or, rather, the state security of Krajina. Q. Paragraph 19. The top man at the Territorial Defence and SUP under Martic was? You may have named him already, but can you just tell us again?

A. Prijic. Q. And when Martic became president, what did Prijic become? A. Minister of police.

Q. The top man under Martic for the DB was whom? A. Aco Draca.

Q. And did the DB and SUP operate separately or on an integrated ¹⁹¹⁷⁸

1 basis?

2 A. Integrated.

3 Q. The man Aco Drac?

4 A. Drac, yes, D-R-A-C-A, Draca.

5 Q. Was born where?

6 A. I don't know. I think in the surroundings of Knin.

7 Q. For whom did he work?

8 A. The state security of Krajina.

9 Q. Anybody else? Did he work for anybody else? A. He was linked to the State Security Service of Serbia, which was quite normal, because it was the state security service in Yugoslavia at the time had still not been disbanded definitely. So the system of the previous Yugoslavia and state security system was still intact, and that was quite logical.

Q. Were there two other men who also worked for the two DBs in the same way as Draca did?

A. Yes. Q. Their names?

A. Dule Orlovic and Zoran Rajic. Q. What was Martic's official position so far as controlling these three men is concerned?

A. I answered that question a moment ago. He had control over the SUP, the Territorial Defence, and the state security of Krajina. Q. Given that these men were also linked to the DB of Serbia, did he have complete control of them or not in your judgement? ¹⁹¹⁷⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: What is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. Mr. Nice is

4 leading the witness in the wrong direction. He claims that they were

5 linked to the state security of Serbia, whereas the witness said loud and

6 clear they were linked to the state security of Krajina but that they

7 cooperated within the frameworks of Yugoslavia. Mr. Nice is throwing the

8 first half away and then goes on to ask what the state security of Serbia

9 had to do with it and it had nothing to do with it. So the witness can't always pay attention to all this.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on.

MR. NICE: Q. Witness B-050, can you answer my question, please? A. Can you ask the question again, please? Q. In light of what the accused raised, I'll ask it in slightly a different way. You've told us about the linkages of these three men to two different DBs. In light of that, was Martic able completely to control them or not?

A. Officially, yes, but I think that to a certain extent, no.

MR. NICE: With the Court's leave, private session, please, for paragraph 21 to 26.

[Private session] [redacted]

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9 [Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: Q. You just told us, Witness B-050, that there was the deployment of some 50 to 60 men to Varivode, and while there, under whose command were they?

A. Under Martic's and Frenki's. Q. Paragraph 43. Was there a plan in respect of Skradin? And again I'm going to look at maps later. Was there a plan to take in respect of Skradin?

A. No. Q. Did Martic have a plan about Skradin? A. As far as I know, no, he didn't. I don't know which plan you're referring to.

Q. Was there any incident you can recall where Skradin and Mladic had tension between them about what they would do?

JUDGE MAY: That's not very clear. Skradin? ¹⁹¹⁸⁶

MR. NICE:

2 Q. Sorry, where Martic and Mladic - my mistake - had a tension about

3 what they were to do?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was it that they disagreed about?

6 A. Well, when we were sent to the hinterland of Skradin, we arrived

7 there and the Croatian forces were attacking that belt which was where the

8 Serb villages were located, and we were able to refute the forces towards

9 Skradin, Croatian forces, and we were able to take control of the town of Skradin. Martic said, when we had repelled the Croatian forces, that we should take control of Skradin. And then General Ratko Mladic turned up with his army and tanks, and he didn't allow us to take control of Skradin, and that area was a buffer zone, in fact. The army was a buffer zone.

Q. And at that time, what was Mladic's attitude generally, and can you give us an example of his attitude in respect of uniforms? A. At the time, Mladic was Yugoslav oriented to a great degree, and it was just the Yugoslav People's Army that existed at the time and some volunteers which came with cockades, the kokardas or some other insignia. He would take them off, take those -- told them to take their uniforms off. He would send them back and wouldn't allow them to be members of the Yugoslav People's Army units or the Territorial Defence.

MR. NICE: Private session, please. [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: Q. Paragraph 59. In August of 1991, did a unit of men trained in the way you've described go to Drnis?

A. Not mine but others. Q. Another unit, yes. And in this unit, what forces combined together? Can you tell us, please?

A. From the camp. Q. Yes. But in the action at Drnis, what other forces were operating and under whose command?

A. Forces under the command of Ratko Mladic participated, and under the command of Milan Martic.

Q. Were the police involved? A. Yes.

Q. Territorial Defence? A. Yes.

Q. The army, as you've described, but also your unit? Not your unit but men from your unit? ¹⁹¹⁹¹

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So on this occasion, was the army operating as a buffer or was it

3 operating on a partisan basis?

4 A. Well, one could say, regarding the army, that a part of the active

5 force acted as a buffer zone, whereas the Territorial Defence participated

6 with units such as those of Milan Martic.

MR. NICE: Private session, please.

JUDGE MAY: Well, that would be a convenient session -- convenient

9 moment, I mean, before we go into private session. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

Witness, B-050, would you remember during this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m. [Private session]

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MR. NICE: Paragraph 93, exhibit 349, tab 12. On the screen now.

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: It may be the witness's screen will have to be adjusted now to take -- Exhibit 349, tab 12. Can you tell us, please, what this is?

A. This is the patch of the Red Beret unit. Q. Who was entitled to and who did carry this particular patch? A. Those who were under the command of the state security of Serbia. Q. Thank you very much.

MR. NICE: Will Your Honour give me one minute, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this is Prosecution Exhibit 349, tab 12.

MR. NICE: Closed session -- private session, please [Private session]

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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: ¹⁹²⁰²

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1 Q. Were you aware one way or another of a Red Beret ceremony held in

2 the summer of a year in either the middle or -- middle to end of the

3 1990s?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What year do you believe the ceremony you recall to have been in?

6 A. I didn't take part.

7 Q. Yes. But what year do you think the ceremony was in?

8 A. 1996 or 1997. Roughly in May.

9 Q. And the day of the year or -- the day of the year or particular date of the year that it was held on, what was that? A. Approximately in May.

Q. Very well. Was this a ceremony that received any media publicity or not?

A. I don't know whether the media informed about it.

MR. NICE: Private session, please. [Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Let me deal with this in the period we have. I was going to deal with the next selection of Rule 92 bis witnesses, and I will deal with them.

First of all, Dalj and Erdut. I have C-1086, 1089, 1162, 1175, 1185, and 1215. Lovas, 1238. Cepin, 1055. Ilok, 1136, and Bapska, 1191. That should conclude all of the Croatian Rule 92 bis witnesses. It may also be convenient to deal this week, if we can, with the Foca transcript witnesses, the 11 of those for whom the Prosecution have put in a motion.

Mr. Nice, I don't know if there is a time which can be identified where we can deal with those procedural matters in the next three days.

MR. NICE: We're only got four days, three more left this week. I think we've probably got evidence to fill all of them, but these ¹⁹²¹⁶

1 administrative matters must be dealt with, so I would propose perhaps part

2 of -- perhaps Wednesday is preferable to Thursday, if we can deal with it

3 then.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll deal with them then. I don't know

5 if there are any other administrative matters which can be raised.

MR. NICE: I hoped to be able to file or provide you with courtesy

7 copies in respect of a filing covering time in the way I forecast I was

8 going to. The filing and the associated witness lists should probably be

9 self-explanatory but it may merit a couple of minutes of explanation by me in order to assist you in understanding it. So perhaps we can deal with that at the same time.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. You can identify it -- identify, Mr. Nice, if you would, a suitable time on Wednesday. Yes. [Private session]

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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. NICE: Q. Witness B-050, are you aware of efforts made by Stanisic and Frenki to liberate pilots and soldiers held as hostages? A. Yes.

Q. From your information, when did these -- when were these efforts made?

A. You mean the year? Q. Yes. ¹⁹²²⁰

1 A. In 1995.

2 Q. On one occasion was it French pilots who were involved?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you at the time see footage of the involvement of Stanisic or

5 Frenki?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was it you saw? We're in open session at the moment, so tell

8 us any name you're prepared to tell us in open session. Who was it you

9 saw with Stanisic and Frenki? A. I saw Stanisic and Frenki. We could go into private session. Q. There's one part I want to deal with in closed session, please, or private session.

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THE REGISTRAR: Open session, Your Honours.

MR. NICE:

5 Q. The second occasion of assistance given by either of these men in

6 relation to hostages is, I think the subject of a short video excerpt we

7 can play you which we will do. It is tab 8 of Exhibit 429, without sound.

8 Thank you.

9 Now, is this the video of the second effort of which you were aware where Stanisic is shown dealing with hostages?

JUDGE MAY: We haven't got it.

MR. NICE: I'm sorry. Run it again. [Videotape played]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see Jovica Stanisic and Frenki Simatovic here. This is Franko Simatovic. Jovica Stanisic.

MR. NICE: Q. And was this video that you've seen here, does this connect with your earlier experience of seeing or learning of Stanisic and Frenki being involved in the release of hostages?

A. Yes, only this clip, I was saying earlier there's a clip where you [redacted], and this is not that still. I know that they were there twice, once when they were liberating the French pilots and another time when they were negotiating regarding the release of men from UNPROFOR, UNPROFOR soldiers.

JUDGE KWON: We're in open session. ¹⁹²²²

MR. NICE:

2 Q. We're in open session now, B-050. We'll just go into closed

3 session if we may.

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--- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m. --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m. [Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that this can be in open session, because I'm not going to mention anything that has to do with the witness's identity.

JUDGE MAY: We are in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine. Before I start my cross-examination, I should like to say in open session, publicly -- or, rather, I'd like to make a categoric objection, the same one I made --

JUDGE MAY: No. You've made it to us. Now, this is not a matter for restatement. Now, if you've got questions of this witness, will you ¹⁹²²⁶

1 ask them.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to object and ask

3 why you have rescinded the public character of the hearing, which is a

4 characteristic of all legal courts. Of course you're not a legal one, but

5 you wish to appear so.

JUDGE MAY: No. We've dealt with this matter already once. We're

7 not going to rediscuss it. Now, if you have questions of the witness, ask

8 them. Otherwise, we shall let him go.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I do have a lot of questions for this witness, but I should like to caution you and say that with the previous witness as well, you made it impossible for it publicly to be stated that he committed war crimes.

JUDGE MAY: Are you -- are you going to examine this witness or not? It's up to you. If you don't want to, you needn't bother, and the witness -- we'll all get on more quickly. Now, move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: Q. [Interpretation] Mr. B-050, the opposite side over there introduced you by saying you were a man who new a great deal about the formation and activities of the Red Berets in the broadest sense. Is that correct?

JUDGE MAY: That's not for him to say. You can ask him some questions if you want.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ¹⁹²²⁷

1 Q. Mr. 050, from the paper that I was provided with by the opposite

2 side - and for you gentlemen it is dated the 8th of April, 2003 - pursuant

3 to Rule 68, and among others it says that you, together with your

4 colleagues, in 1996 prepared a plan for an assassination attempt on me.

5 Is that right?

6 A. It was nothing serious. And that was something that I'm sure half

7 a million Serbs, Serbs from Croatia thought at that same time.

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Q. And did you attend the activities of that unit throughout this time?

A. No.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, in fact all these matters not dealt with in open session, particularly about six lines up.

JUDGE MAY: Well, are you asking to go into closed session?

MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour, I am.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We'll consider whether we'll go into closed session or not. I mean, are you saying all questions about the Red Berets should be in closed session? Is that the point?

MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. All questions -- ¹⁹²²⁸

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

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JUDGE MAY: It is by no means easy to follow. The whole matter is

9 confused and confusing. You hear that -- you hear that distinction when you're cross-examining. You can ask general questions about the group but not particular questions relating to those matters with which Mr. Nice is concerned. If you want to deal with general matters, then it can be in open session.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I see -- I'd looked across at the screen that I can see over there that indicates whether we're in open or closed session. I thought we were in closed session, and what appears on line time 12.51.01 from me would not have been expressed in those terms had I thought we were in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. It can be redacted. Yes. Now, if you want to ask about particular matters, then private session. General matters you can ask about in open session. [Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Now, do you want to go on in -- no doubt you want to go on in open session, but if you're going to ask particular matters, then ¹⁹²²⁹

1 you must go into private session. And the Registry ask me quite rightly

2 to say -- just a moment -- that everybody must keep an eye on the

3 registrar saying that we're in open session or listen out for the

4 registrar to say "Open session," and "Private session." Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well I assume we're still in open

6 session, aren't we?

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know, Mr. B-050, that it was precisely these Red Berets which were given recognition for their contribution to the putsch in 2000 organised against me?

JUDGE MAY: I think we're getting a long way from the topic in which we're concern. You know what the witness's evidence is about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do know, yes, but as he knows about the activities of the unit, I assume that he knows that too.

JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance to this particular case, the charges against you?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is, Mr. May, that several witnesses or, rather, the opposite side over there through several witnesses is endeavouring to explain that I controlled the unit. And then I am now asking the witness whether he knows about the unit's contribution. And it received a claim from the authorities for participating in the putsch against me, and whether he knows also -- what did you say?

JUDGE MAY: If relevant, and I'm not, by no means, satisfied about ¹⁹²³⁰

1 that at the moment, but if relevant, you can call some evidence about it

2 or you can ask somebody who has some more up-to-date knowledge. You've

3 heard about this witness's evidence. It doesn't relate to that. Move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. B-050, do you know that it was precisely that unit which

7 arrested me?

8 A. I heard about that from the press.

9 Q. So you heard about it, did you? And where did you hear what it says in your statement from to the effect that they provided security for me? You know that's not true. That unit was never security for me. A. I said in my statement that I heard that it provided security, but I said I didn't know if that was true.

Q. And do you know that my security was provided by the public security forces throughout, from beginning to end? A. No. I never gave it much thought actually. Q. Well, in view of the participation in the putsch and in view of my subsequent arrest, can you tell me, please, who was it who controlled the unit? Which political factors controlled the unit?

JUDGE MAY: When? When are we talking about?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At any time. Any period that the witness is covering when referring to the unit. That's the answer, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: That's too wide a question, and we'll stick to the indictment period, which is the relevant period as far as we're concerned. ¹⁹²³¹

1 Can you help -- are you help in the 1991 and 1992, Witness B-050?

2 The question is: Which political factions, I think it should be,

3 controlled the unit? If answer, do. If you want to answer in private

4 session, you can, or if you can't answer, just say so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The political forces of Serbia and

6 the political forces of Krajina.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, did you at one point state that for a period of time without

9 specifying, not to have to go back into private session for this, that you were at one time involved in the election campaign for the Serbian Democratic Party, SDS?

A. May I answer that question in private session, please? Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Let him answer --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Q. Well, you can answer in --

JUDGE MAY: No. You can ask him in private session, since you ask him. Private session.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Q. Do you know and did you know at the time that the Serbian Democratic Party was the opposition party in Serbia at the time? A. All this was going on in Republika Srpska, not in Serbia. And I was never well up on politics. I didn't give much thought to politics at all ever.

Q. I'm going to ask you some general questions now, so I hope, Mr. May, you won't close us off in private session. In your statement, you say that the spring of 1991 -- in the spring of 1991, the local inhabitants of your particular place in Krajina - so I'm not going to identify which that place is - that they were mobilised. Is that right?

A. Yes. ¹⁹²³³

1 Q. All right then. Now, tell me this: Had you not been mobilised at

2 the time you were in fact mobilised, would you have volunteered yourself

3 to join the unit of the local Territorial Defence?

4 A. For moral reasons, certainly I would have, yes.

5 Q. So you would have signed up for moral reasons.

6 A. Yes. Right.

7 Q. So what were the dangers at that time that threatened the Serbs in

8 Krajina when this mobilisation call-up took place?

9 A. Tensions rose between Serbs and Croats. Q. And what was the reason for that, the reason for those tensions and the burgeoning of tensions?

A. Recollections and memories of the Second World War. Q. And don't you feel that those memories of the Second World War stem from the fact that the new HDZ power and authority began to behave in the same way that the Ustashas behaved during World War II when it came to the Serbs?

A. Yes, we had that feeling. Q. I'm sure you'll remember the events that were referred to as the log revolution spontaneously and everything that took place at the time there.

A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, was this resistance on the part of the citizens of Krajina to the new Croatian authorities which reminded them of World War II? That's right, isn't it?

A. Generally speaking, in global terms, yes. ¹⁹²³⁴

1 Q. All right. Now, was this organised at the time by the citizens of

2 Krajina or did somebody from Serbia come to organise what came to be known

3 as the log revolution?

4 A. I don't know who organised it, but people from the Krajina were on

5 the ground.

6 Q. I see. So you say from Krajina. Right.

7 Now, you also say on page 2, paragraph 3 of your statement that

8 the mobilisation was in force because of the actions of the Croatian

9 police. Is that what you said? A. Yes.

Q. What kind of actions on the part of the Croatian police were these for which the decision was taken that it was necessary to mobilise? A. As far as I know, they wanted, in the towns with the majority Serb population, to place their chequerboard insignia and take over the police stations in those places. Things like that.

Q. Now, I don't want to be specific and mention a name, but tell me, please, the unit in which you were engaged. Was it the unit that was within the composition of the Territorial Defence of Krajina? A. Yes. While we were down there in Krajina, yes, it was. Q. The man who you mentioned as being the camp commander, was he a man in Krajina? I don't want to mention his name. Was he a man from Krajina?

A. Well, Your Honour, if I may, might I answer that question in private session?

Q. I'm not asking you for the name. ¹⁹²³⁵

JUDGE MAY: No. Let the witness answer in private session if he

2 wants.

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[redacted] [Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session. ¹⁹²³⁹

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. He said this --

4 A. Could you please start from the beginning because I couldn't hear.

JUDGE MAY: Could you turn on your microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My microphone is on, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. We have cleared up, I hope, Mr. B-050, that the man in charge of

9 the camp was the commander and that he was a man from Krajina, that the camp was part of the Territorial Defence of Krajina, and that -- let me just specify to the extent necessary that Captain Dragan was a Serb from Australia who came as a volunteer to assist in the defence of the people in Krajina; is that right?

A. Yes. Q. Are you aware that Captain Dragan never worked for the state security service?

A. I am not aware of that. Q. And are you aware that he -- do you know that he did work for the state security?

A. I don't know whether he worked for that service, but I did see him with people from the state security.

Q. And were you ever in the company of people from the state security?

A. Yes. Q. And did you work for the state security? ¹⁹²⁴⁰

1 A. No.

2 Q. Well, why then would you not allow for the possibility for

3 somebody to be in contact with the people from the state security without

4 working for them?

5 A. It's not up to me to judge.

6 Q. Very well. Now, tell me in general terms, the mobilisation was

7 carried out for the reasons you have explained; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I assume that the men who were mobilised did not have appropriate training and that they first had to undergo some sort of training. A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that those men upon completing that training which didn't last long then went to the defence lines along Serbian villages facing Croatian forces? Is that right?

A. Yes. Q. So the Territorial Defence of Krajina had a camp where men were given some elementary training upon which they go to the defence lines to protect the territory of Krajina. Was that the gist and substance of what was going on?

A. Yes. Q. Did you say that among the men who were mobilised then there was rigorous control and that there wasn't a single criminal among them? Is that true or not?

A. I said that with regard to the unit I belonged to, that is true. Q. Were there in some units some criminals, and if so, tell me in ¹⁹²⁴¹

1 which units.

2 A. It was not within my competence, so really I can't say anything

3 about it.

4 Q. Do you know anything about that?

5 A. Nothing specific.

6 Q. Very well. When speaking about Captain Dragan, you said that he

7 was well trained, intelligent. And as you say in your statement,

8 correctly motivated. Is that right? With the correct motivation. Is

9 that what you said? A. Yes.

Q. What were his motives then? Could you explain in somewhat greater detail?

A. I don't know what you're referring to. Q. When you say that he had the right motives, tell me, what do you consider to be the right motives on the basis of which you came to that conclusion that his motives were right?

A. His attitude towards the training. There was no alcohol. There was a very strict regime and discipline. People were trained how they should treat prisoners of war and the like. And I think that that part of the training was highly professional too, and I didn't see anything bad in that camp.

Q. Now, tell me from your own personal knowledge. I'm not asking you to check out things that you yourself are unable to speak about, but if this person from Krajina who you said was the camp commander, and he was a member of the TO of Krajina, a local from Krajina, how then is the link ¹⁹²⁴²

1 established with Captain Dragan as being the commander of the camp? Who

2 was the commander? Or was perhaps Captain Dragan, in view of his

3 professional experience, some kind of main instructor in the camp rather

4 than the camp commander? What exactly was his function?

5 A. Well, I would say both. He was at the level of the camp

6 commander, and he was also the main instructor, the chief instructor.

7 Q. Very well. So it follows from that that the camp had two

8 commanders, the one you mentioned and the second one who was in the

9 professional sense there, that is, Captain Dragan; is that right? A. Yes.

Q. You say on page 2, fourth paragraph of your statement, that in the spring of 1991, no one had even heard of the unit that later came to be known as the Red Berets. So such a unit did not exist in Krajina. It was only just then formed?

A. Yes, as far as I know. Q. And this was a unit of the Krajina police or, rather, the TO of Krajina. Depends which angle you look at it from. A. Yes.

Q. Now, since in your statement you say that only the most capable or the most intelligent and most intelligent men to join this unit, were chosen to join this unit, tell me who carried out the selection? Were they the same men who were in charge of the camp that you have referred to, the man whose name you do not wish to be mentioned in open session though he is a man from Krajina, he was the commander, and Captain Dragan who was some sort of chief instructor? Did they carry out the selection? ¹⁹²⁴³

1 A. It wasn't really direct selection. It was more spontaneous, and

2 it was done by the men whose names I mentioned in private session.

3 Q. Did I understand you correctly or, rather, did I note it down

4 correctly that when the opposing side asked you about the source of the

5 weapons, you said that the weapons came from the Territorial Defence and

6 the police, and later on some came from the army? Is that what you said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you went on to say also through state security channels

9 but less so. When you say "state security," are you referring to the state security of Krajina? Yes or no?

A. I saw twice cars with Belgrade licence plates. Q. Those cars with Belgrade licence plates, were they bringing some weapons or were there just some men inside who came here for various reasons of their own?

A. They were bringing some uniforms. Q. I see, uniforms.

A. To be quite frank, I saw the uniforms, but I didn't unload those vehicles, so I don't really know what was inside. [redacted]

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JUDGE MAY: Yes. That can go -- we'll go into private session.

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--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.