Milosevic Transcript 2003-05-05

²⁰⁰³⁹

Monday, 5 May 2003

[Closed session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁰⁰⁴⁰ Pages 20040-20085 - redacted - closed session

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[redacted]

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

[Open session]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the next witness is the subject of an application that some, in any event, of his evidence should be given pursuant to the provisions of Rule 292 bis. Your Honours have had the application, I think, since last Friday, although it was only formally probably available this morning. The application is short. The point is a simple one.

MR. NICE: As a matter of detail, paragraph 10, Mr. Gusic's first statement was provided on the 1st of June of last year, his supplementary statement was provided this morning: It's, as I say, rather detailed because the witness has been very particular in preparation, and that's a position he's entirely entitled to take and we have no criticism of him for that.

The documents I've been able to provide this morning link up the corrections or additions or amendments that he would wish to make by ²⁰⁰⁸⁷ numbers 1 to 14, I think, showing up on a version of the original statement which has one or two other markings. I'm sorry for that, but it was just my own copy, and I hope you'll overlook those other markings -- 1 to 14 with associated numberings on the addendum statement. In our submission, this witness qualifies generally under the provisions of 92 bis so that his statement may be given under those provisions. Of course many people, probably the witness himself, for all I know, would prefer to give the evidence in full in order to have a fuller picture publicly available. But our criteria here has to be efficiency and the saving of time and it's our submission now that we've reached the stage in the trial where every conceivable use must be made of procedures that will save time, and if this witness could have his evidence in chief taken by the provisions of 92 bis with live evidence of the numbered paragraphs spelled out, that will save time and will set the sail for the rest of the Prosecution's case.

JUDGE MAY: The statements which we have are in fact dated the 15th of April, 1999.

MR. NICE: Correct.

JUDGE MAY: And the 2nd of May, 2003. I thought you referred to one from last year but --

MR. NICE: No. I said the first statement was provided to him in June of last year.

JUDGE MAY: I understand. Of course.

MR. NICE: There's also a short summary that I would read as a reflection of his 92 bis evidence. It's one side of A4, so I think, on ²⁰⁰⁸⁸ experience, it would take about two or three minutes to read.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. Should we -- we'll hear the accused first.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic. The application is to have this evidence at least in statement form. You would, of course, be able to cross-examine. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this witness was on the previous list of witnesses, and he was said to be a witness who would be testifying live, and the time planned for the examination-in-chief was three hours. And the 92 bis application came on Friday, that is to say, the previous working day.

As far as the witness is concerned, he was president of the Party of Democratic Action in his local community, and he gives extensive testimony about the events as he wishes to present them. I don't think he can be considered any kind of cumulative witness or a witness who falls under 92 bis rulings, especially as the opposite side over there treated him as a live witness as a whole until Friday, the last working day, which I think radically limits my ability to cross-examine him and also we're not going to hear live testimony from him.

I think that this request and application should be rejected, that either in part or in whole he should come under Rule 92 bis. So I don't only object in principle, I have concrete and specific objections for precisely the reasons for which the other side treated this witness until the last working day before today, on Friday, as a live witness themselves. ²⁰⁰⁸⁹

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Yes. If we can just deal with the rules first of all. 92 bis requires 14 days' notice by the Prosecutor with a period of 7 days for the other party to respond. Plainly those time limits have not been followed in this instance and the Prosecutor seeks an extension of time under Rule 127.

The accused's point about that, so far as I can see it, is quite clear. He was prepared for a witness who would, on the Prosecution's original showing, have been allotted three hours. In dealing with the statement itself under the provisions of the Rules, the list of factors in 92 bis cite, amongst others, the cumulative nature of evidence. Looking at the statement of this witness, which deals with the issues between the two political parties, the SDS and SDA, in his municipality, Bratunac, it is difficult to say from what other evidence this is cumulative of.

Looking at the statement as well, it deals with issues concerning the involvement in the JNA when it is alleged that the SDS unfairly, unjustly, sought to exercise influence over the rival political party, the SDA. So using force externally and unlawfully to achieve influence and thereafter prevent the SDA from being a functioning force within the politics of the municipality.

Under 92 bis, the Court, of course, has amongst other things to take into account, those listed, one of which concerns the public interest in having evidence heard orally. I'll return to that in a moment.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, time is of the essence. I don't want to stop ²⁰⁰⁹⁰ you, but what is the prejudice to the accused if this evidence is given in statement form provided he's given, as he will be, adequate time to cross-examine? Given the problems which are faced by time in this case, is this really a proper objection? There's been much evidence about the differences generally between the SDS and the SDA. We've heard quite a lot of evidence about that. We've heard evidence, as I recollect, about Bratunac.

MR. KAY: Looking at the indictment, this is indeed a major witness. If you look at the summary provided by the Prosecutor citing the relevant counts being numbers 3 to 22 inclusive, covering within those 19 counts charges of persecution, extermination, murder, wilful killing, crimes against humanity, deportation, plunder, destruction, and the paragraphs cited --

[Trial Chamber confers]

MR. KAY: And the paragraphs cited within the indictment which are extensive as well, involving the SDS party of Mr. Karadzic, the allegations in the indictment cite that this accused was behind that strategy and those events. And as far as his objection is concerned, which has some force in it, he wants that evidence to be heard so that he can deal with it explicitly. And that is where we come down into the public interest in favour of oral evidence. There are probably many minor matters that we could deal with very, very quickly in relation to background in this statement, but the important issue is the conflict between the SDS and SDA and the means and tools that were used at the time. ²⁰⁰⁹¹ In association with this evidence, we've also been supplied with a Rule 68 binder containing evidence concerning statements from witnesses about the Muslim army that was in operation at the time. So as far as this accused is concerned, his interest in relation to a direct oral testimony, we submit, are clear.

There have been many alterations to that first statement that were given and the statement which was made last Friday, which is a point to be borne in mind, as the accused has mentioned many times. The statements themselves often contain inaccuracies which make the task of this Tribunal very difficult to deal with evidence in a paper form, limiting the oral effect of evidence.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Judge Kwon will give the ruling.

JUDGE KWON: The Chamber notes that the evidence in the witness statement of Mr. Gusic does not relate to the acts and conduct of the accused, nor are the facts and matters addressed in the statement proximate to the accused. Rather, the evidence in nature is crime-based and cumulative of other evidence. Thus, the Trial Chamber will grant the Prosecution's motion and admit the statement of Mr. Gusic under Rule 92 bis subject to the following conditions: First, the corrections to the original statement that Mr. Gusic made in his statement dated 2nd of May this year should be given in -- live.

Second, the accused will be given more time than the Prosecution, or given the short notice in this specific case, the accused will be given as much time as the Prosecution would have had if Mr. Gusic were a viva ²⁰⁰⁹² ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰⁰⁹³ voce witness in the whole, that is, about an hour and a half to two hours. Finally, regarding the motion for the variation of 14-day time limit, the Chamber will grant the motion also, considering that the accused was informed well in advance of the fact that this witness is coming and his statement was disclosed to him. However, we will order the Prosecution to abide by the rules for the forthcoming witnesses to the furthest extent possible.

MR. NICE: I'm grateful. So far as this week is concerned, there may be further applications which will seek abbreviation of time. We'll do everything to avoid such applications for the future. May the witness come in, please.

The Chamber will also want to have a one-page summary from which I will read, the Chamber and the accused and the amici. There is a small exhibit bundle of three exhibits that he's capable of producing, three tabs to that exhibit bundle.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: DZEVAD GUSIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. Your full name, please. ²⁰⁰⁹⁴

A. My name is Dzevad Gusic.

Q. Mr. Gusic, did you make a statement to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 15th of April, 1999 with a correction or addition to that statement made last Friday, the 2nd of May of this year? Did you go through a process with an officer of the court whereby you testified to the accuracy of both those statements?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. NICE: May the witness see the attestation of -- or his attestation as verified by the officer of the court and may that become an exhibit in the usual way.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 435.

MR. NICE:

Q. Is that the document that you produced by attesting the accuracy of the statements?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I will -- if that can be given an exhibit number.

JUDGE MAY: It has one.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 435.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

Q. Mr. Gusic, I'm going to read out a summary of the effect of your statements and then we'll ask some detailed questions that have to be dealt with in live evidence.

MR. NICE: His statements cover events in Bratunac before and during the takeover of the municipality by Serb forces in April 1992, and ²⁰⁰⁹⁵ the Chamber will be familiar with Bratunac. It can be found on page 29 of the atlas at the bottom right-hand corner.

Mr. Gusic's testimony deals with the ethnic composition of Bratunac, pre-conflict ethnic relations, and the formation of a multi-party political system reflected in multi-party elections in November of 1990. His statements explain how, notwithstanding a minority position in the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, the SDS party issued an ultimatum to the SDA party insisting on a 50/50 power-sharing arrangement and the SDA agreed to that to avoid political chaos. His evidence will be to the effect that members of the SDS said that no co-existence was possible as Bratunac was a Serb municipality.

His statements deal with the general intimidation and persecution of Muslims by Serbs in Bratunac and adjacent villages. He deals with how the SDS acted together with the JNA in arming and training local Serb civilians. He details an important incident where JNA and SDS officials, together with Serb police officers, demanded reservists' mobilisation records from Bratunac but were repulsed by a crowd of civilians. Mr. Gusic was appointed president of the Bratunac SDA in March 1992. He was involved in negotiations at this time with Serb local officials, including Miroslav Deronjic. These discussions dealt with the division of the police in April 1992 into two separate entities, one Muslim and the other Serb. During these meetings, Deronjic stated that he was under the direct control of Radovan Karadzic and that Karadzic was pressuring him to get the division of the police underway. Deronjic also said that he had regular meetings with Karadzic. ²⁰⁰⁹⁶ On the day of the takeover of Bratunac on the 17th of April, 1992, the witness, as president of the Bratunac SDA, was involved in negotiations with Serb forces which had entered the town. His statements deal with the military takeover of Bratunac municipality that occurred on the 17th of April, that same day, 1992 with SDS president Miroslav Deronjic instructing him and other Muslim leaders to go to the Hotel Fontana where they were to meet the leadership of the Serb military unit. At that ensuing meeting, the witness was told that Bratunac was a Serb municipality and that Serb laws would be introduced. Further, he was warned that if a Muslim fired a single shot, then the entire family of that person who fired the shot would be eliminated. He and his colleagues were given a deadline of two to three hours for the police to surrender their weapons and to identify Muslim nationalists from the area. The witness left the municipality that day and went to Muslim-held territory.

Q. Mr. Gusic, in live testimony we are going to deal with some corrections that you made last Friday, or qualifications to your original statement. It may be that you will want to have the original statement before you in B/C/S. If so, that can be arranged. Otherwise, I will deal with the corrections by reference to your English statements. And I'm looking at the English statement, for purposes of reference, which has page numbers in the bottom right-hand corner. The addendum also -- or the other statement also has page numbers in the bottom right-hand corner. Page 2 of each, prior to the conflict, Mr. Gusic, the ethnic composition of Bratunac, by numbers, was what, please? How many Bosniaks, how many Muslims -- sorry, how many Bosniaks, how many Serbs, and how many ²⁰⁰⁹⁷ others?

A. I do apologise, sir, but you said "before the conflict." In Bratunac on the 17th of April, there was no conflict, no clash. Quite simply, the Serb military formations from Serbia and the formations of the Yugoslav People's Army --

Q. Sorry, I -- yes. What was the ethnic composition of Bratunac before the conflict? How many Bosniaks? How many Serbs?

A. In Bratunac, there were 33 -- a total of 33.300 inhabitants roughly. Of that number, 21 and a half thousand inhabitants were Muslims and about 11 and a half thousand inhabitants were Serbs. The rest were Croats and others.

Q. The same pages, 2 of each document for the Court and the accused and my learned friends, towards the bottom of the page, the paragraph: "This illusion began to break down."

Mr. Gusic, you were informed at one stage that the statute for your Assembly had been changed so that a two-thirds majority vote was required for decisions to be ratified. What effect did that have on the ability of the Serbs to have control? Was the SDA able to pass any decisions in that Assembly?

A. The SDA in that way was not able to pass any decisions in the Assembly if it didn't have a two-thirds majority in the Assembly. And with the amendments to the statute, this meant in the technical mandate of the old Assembly system and composition once the first multi-party elections had been held and when the results were known. So in that period of time, the SDS with the Serb deputies in that -- the old ²⁰⁰⁹⁸ composition, the Municipal Assembly, they asked them to hold a meeting, to change the statute, and to make a decision on the introduction of a two-third majority vote.

Q. Thank you. I think you've covered the details sufficiently. On page 3 of the original statement, still on page 2 of the supplement, number 3, in your original statement you dealt, Mr. Gusic, with the -- a group of SDS activists visiting the Territorial Defence secretariat seeking a handover of data files, and the head of the Territorial Defence, Dzemail Becirevic, being ordered to hand it over and refusing and his life being threatened, there being a reprieve until a large JNA unit from Ljubovija arrived.

Now, I think that you wished to add to that in your addendum to the effect that at the time of the SDS group of activists led by Mr. Deronjic visiting the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence, requesting the handing over of the documents that you've dealt with, there were some threats. Can you tell us about those threats, please.

A. The group of activists of the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS, led by the president of the SDS, Miroslav Deronjic, went to the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence and requested that the secretary of the secretariat, Dzemail Becirevic, that was his name, to hand over the files of all military recruits from the Bratunac municipality. Dzemail Becirevic didn't have authorisation to do so by the command and he said that he would not be able to do so and they threatened to kill him. Then he called in the police for assistance --

Q. May I interrupt you. You must appreciate that the learned Judges ²⁰⁰⁹⁹ have read both statements. They know the contents of the statements, they just wish to hear from you about the matters of correction, and therefore, I'm going to focus your attention as narrowly as I can on those in order to save time.

Number 5, page 4 of the original, page 3 of the addendum. In your -- I beg your pardon. Yes, page 4. In your original statement, you said that it wasn't long before soldiers were ordered to fire their weapons into the air but eventually the officer withdrew his soldiers and left, having failed to get the files. Is there anything you wish to add to that, or does that broadly reflect the position?

A. The police, that is to say the legal police force, had as its task to protect the legitimately elected organs of pound authority in the Bratunac municipality, and the police organised themselves in such a way as they stood by the Muslim people who were afraid of having these files taken out, the unit to take the files out, the military files, because they were afraid that the Muslims might be mobilised and sent to the front, to the battleground in Croatia. So when the army, after several rounds of gunfire, saw that they were not able to intimidate the people, and when the police were resolute in standing up to the police and stopping them from taking the files out of the records, then they went in the direction of Ljubovija and Serbia, following orders from their commander.

Q. You noticed during late 1991 the JNA installing heavy artillery weapons and mortars into prepared positions overlooking Bratunac. To what extent were these positions within the Ljubovija municipality? ²⁰¹⁰⁰

A. All along the Drina River - and the Drina River is the border between Bratunac and Ljubovija and the border between Serbia and Bosnia, in fact - in the locality of Ljubovija several heavy artillery pieces were set up and positioned, and everybody was able to see them, anybody happening to walk that way. And the barrels of those weapons were pointed --

Q. At Bratunac?

A. At Bratunac, yes.

Q. Number 7. You explain how you received intelligence that in the village of Vranesevic JNA regulars were training local Serb civilians. You had this checked out by SDA activists and saw activities yourself. Were you informed about training in the village of Vranesevic?

A. We received information about the training of Serb civilians in terms of handling weapons, and this was in Vranesevic, in the village of Vranesevic, and that it was done by the SDA. The activists of the SDA found out about this and on the basis of this source, we asked the chief of police to check this out as well. The chief of police officially sent a police patrol to check this out, and they were able to see for themselves that this is exactly what it was all about.

Q. Very well. Number 8, you explained the president of the municipality, Nijaz Dubicic, led the delegation to meet the JNA and the SDA -- SDS to find out what the military activity was about, and you asked questions such as why they were rushing to war, why they were training civilians. You said -- you made a supplementary statement about this where you detail a joint meeting with the SDS leadership and prominent ²⁰¹⁰¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹⁰² citizens of Bratunac municipality reviewing the political and security situation and undertaking necessary actions to establish mutual trust. What happened at that meeting? What did you ask of the Serbs?

A. At this meeting we asked the Serbs to explain to us why the Yugoslav People's Army and the SDS were engaged in the training of Serb civilians for handling weapons, why are they arming the Serb people, why are they preparing for war, why are the barrels on weapons in Ljubovija and Serbia pointing at Bratunac, and why did they -- why are they rushing into a war?

Q. [Previous translation continues]... in your original statement with their answers and number 9 in the supplementary point, after their vague answers, was there a decision to issue a joint statement concerning peaceful co-existence?

A. They said that we needn't worry too much and that people in this area should live in peace. That is what we had called for, and they agreed with what we said. They wanted to reassure us and they wanted us to reassure the citizens of Bratunac. And a joint statement was issued on peaceful co-existence in Bratunac, and all of those present voted in favour of that.

Q. Number 10 on the addendum, which fits between two paragraphs on the original. Did you request from Bratunac municipality president Nijaz Dubicic and the secretary of the Secretariat of the National Defence, Dzemail Becirevic, to check with the JNA command in Tuzla about the training? Did they do that and go to Tuzla? If so, what was the result of their visit? ²⁰¹⁰³

A. Yes, we officially asked the president of the municipality and the chief of police, the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence, that is to say the representative of the municipality and of the Secretariat for National Defence to go to the appropriate military command in Tuzla and to receive information as to the activities that the army was carrying out in the municipality of Bratunac, especially in the village of Vranesevici, in terms of training Serb civilians to use weapons. They went to this meeting. They received information that the command in charge in Tuzla did not know what unit this was and that within that within three days they'd come to Bratunac, that they would seek information about this and take action. Within the three-day period nobody came from the command in Bratunac, but they also said that these were not units from Bosnia-Herzegovina but that they were units from Serbia and that they did not have any authority over JNA units from Serbia.

Q. We can -- I've temporarily lost my place, I'm afraid. Number 11, you requested a further meeting. Were you visited by Serb leader -- Serbian leader Nikola Koljevic and an SDA leader Ejub Ganic, both members of the BH Presidency, and if so, what, in a sentence, did they say would be the outcome?

A. They came to Bratunac after a killing from an ambush in the village of Kravica. Two Muslims were killed and two Muslims were injured or wounded from this ambush. This caused a complex political and security situation, and it is for that reason that they came to Bratunac, and meetings were held of Muslims and others in Bratunac and also meetings of ²⁰¹⁰⁴ the Serbs in the village of Kravica where this ambush had taken place by the Serbs. And they promised in Bratunac at this meeting that they would take all necessary action to see who the perpetrators were, and in Kravica it was agreed that Mr. Ganic and Mr. Koljevic should go together. However, Mr. Koljevic, at his own initiative, went to attend this meeting in Kravica and we received information that he promised the Serbs at that meeting in Kravica that nobody would carry out an investigation regarding the killing of these two Muslims and the wounding of two other Muslims from this ambush.

Q. Point 12, page 5 of the original and of the supplement. Mr. Gusic, you spoke in your original statement of how your refusal to divide the police led to a deterioration in the situation with a separate Serb police force being formed. You wish to add that you were compelled to accept this division because of something that Miroslav Deronjic said. What was that, please?

A. Miroslav Deronjic was bringing strong pressure to bear to have the police divided. He said he could no longer wait for this division of the police to take place, that Radovan Karadzic was pressuring him strongly, and that if we do not agree to a division of the police force, he could not guarantee peace and security in Bratunac. He mentioned the example of Bijeljina that had been occupied by the Serb forces on the 30th -- around the 30th of March, rather. He said that over there the representatives of the SDA and the SDS respectively did not cooperate properly and that is why formations from Serbia had to come in and occupy Bijeljina, and he said, "It is better for you --" that we divide the police, "and if we do ²⁰¹⁰⁵ so, I can guarantee peace and security for the municipality of Bratunac."

Q. Number 13, the same pages, 5 of both documents, in your original statement you say that you were at your father's house along with your brother-in-law Sabit Mujkic who had been commander of the Bratunac Territorial Defence prior to the position being taken by Dzemail Becirevic. You wish to correct the name Dzemail Becirevic, please?

A. Yes.

Q. Whose name should be there instead of Dzemail Becirevic?

A. It should be the name of Dzemo Hodzic.

Q. Thank you.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the longest correction is paragraph 14 -- or is numbered 14. In fact, this is not a correction, it is simply a meticulous reordering of the contents of the original statement by the witness. He wanted it to have a more logical and chronological sense. And in those circumstances, unless compelled otherwise, I would save time by not reading it.

There are a couple of passages only from the summary that we indicated in advance we would seek to give live but we've reduced that number to save time. The Chamber has the summary. At page 3, paragraph 8 --

JUDGE KWON: But Mr. Nice, in this case the Prosecution has not specified the paragraphs of the witness statements that it wishes to introduce by way of -- by way of Rule 92 bis. Rather, it's said it wishes to submit the whole statement under Rule 92 bis except for the small parts indicated in paragraph 5 of the Prosecution's motion. In this regard, ²⁰¹⁰⁶ however, I'd like to very much encourage the Prosecution to keep the practice of numbering the paragraphs of the witness statements and identify the paragraph numbers as specifically as it can that it wishes to introduce by way of Rule 92 bis.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, we will indeed do that. And I entirely accept that it's a preferable practice. This had certain problems of timing about it and the summary had already been produced. So in this occasion, there were numbered paragraphs of a summary it was proposed to give live, but I feel I can abbreviate those. But for the future we will do it with numbered paragraphs or statements or addendum statements.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. NICE:

Q. You've dealt extensively in your materials, Mr. Gusic, with Mr. Deronjic. Just help us with this, please: Did Deronjic speak at large rallies? And if so, did he speak in a nationalistic way or not?

A. Deronjic spoke at large rallies that were held in Bratunac, especially during the year of 1990. He was a rather shrewd politician who could be rather successful in tempering very radical nationalist requests by making it sound like something moderate and absolutely natural that should be accepted by the Muslim side.

Q. Paragraph 10 of the summary. Did Deronjic speak about meetings he had with Karadzic? If so, how did he rely on those meetings in his negotiations?

A. He often said at the time when we were meeting that he had regular meetings with Karadzic, that they were discussing the measures that should ²⁰¹⁰⁷ be taken and agreeing on them. What is particularly noteworthy is his effort to divide the police in April 1992. At first he mentioned the following reasons: That the police should be divided because the Serb people was a minority in the municipality of Bratunac and that Serbs only trusted Serb policemen. Since we did not agree to this in terms of the police, he said that he could no longer wait. He said that Karadzic was pressuring him strongly to divide the police if we wanted to have peace in Bratunac.

Q. Did he appear to have an ability to act independently of Karadzic?

A. Well, that's how it appeared. That's my assessment. He had wide powers in terms of his activity. I had the impression that he was Karadzic's right hand, that Karadzic trusted him a great deal, and that he could do a great deal without Karadzic even knowing about this. So in decisive moments, when he could not convince us through his political skills that we should act the way he wanted us to act, then he invoked Karadzic's name and said that Karadzic had ordered it, asked for it, et cetera.

Q. Page 9 of the summary, paragraphs 38 to 40. During 1991, did the SDS set up a Crisis Staff with members drawn from the SDS executive board, a separate body? And if so, who were the members of the SDS Bratunac Crisis Staff?

A. We had information to the effect that in 1991 there was a Crisis Staff of the Serb Democratic Party. Later on, the existence of this Crisis Staff of the SDS was something that was not denied by the activists of the SDS. They were not trying to hide it. A certain number of the ²⁰¹⁰⁸ members of the executive board of the SDS were also members of the Crisis Staff of the SDS. The SDS --

Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... please. Move on. Who were the ones who were a member of the executive board and of the Crisis Staff?

A. Miroslav Deronjic, as president of the party; Ljubislav Simic; Jole Nikolic; Zoran Radic; Zoran Tesic; Dragan, nicknamed Kinez.

Q. Of the members of the Crisis Staff, were the following: Momir Nikolic, Dragisa Loncarevic, and Radoljub Dukanovic, also members of the staff?

A. They were also members of the Crisis Staff and there were also others who were not on the executive board of the Serb Democratic Party who were experts in these military matters.

Q. Did the media report that the SDS deputies in the BiH Republic Assembly had demanded the division of Bosnia-Herzegovina territorially? And if so, following that, did you speak to an SDA official about a conversation he'd had with Karadzic?

A. Well, at that time, the media were saying that Serb delegates in the Assembly were asking for the division of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I spoke to an official of the SDA about that particular subject, and he said to me that Karadzic on one occasion had said to him the following: "You see, we'll have to split up. There's no other way out. That would be the best thing to do." And he said to him, "Well, you see, Mr. Karadzic, you see this big building? Serbs, Croats, Muslims live in it. They are next-door neighbours. How can this be carried out? It's impossible to do that kind ²⁰¹⁰⁹ of thing." His comment was that this had to be done.

Q. And in the event, was a parallel structure of the SDS formed in January 1992? Did they make all appointments at that time? Did it function more fully after the takeover?

A. We received information, official information, that is, at the beginning of January 1991 that a Serb Municipality of Bratunac had been organised, consisting of 24 assemblymen of the SDS who were members of the legitimate Assembly of the Municipality of Bratunac. There was also an additional member from the SDP. They appointed Ljubislav Simic as president of this Serb municipality and they appointed Radoljub Dukanovic as president of the executive council of the municipality, and they truly started operating after the occupation of Bratunac, after the 17th of April, 1992.

JUDGE MAY: The witness referred to the beginning of January 1991. Mr. Nice, would you clarify that. He may mean 1992.

MR. NICE:

Q. In what year was it that the parallel structure was first formed?

A. Maybe this was a slip of the tongue, but it was actually in the beginning of January that we received information that this parallel structure had been established, so we received that information but we don't know exactly when it was established.

JUDGE MAY: Which year?

MR. NICE:

Q. His Honour wants to know which year.

A. 1992. The beginning of January, 1992. ²⁰¹¹⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹¹¹

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry not to have picked that up. Page 12 of the summary, paragraph 53.

Q. Mr. Gusic, after the separation of the police on the 10th of April of 1992, was Milutin Milosevic, a police officer from Ljubovija in Serbia, appointed as head of the Serb police force?

A. Yes. He was appointed chief of the Serb police.

Q. And was it a day or so after that that Senad Hodzic went to see him to discuss cooperation?

A. Senad Hodzic was chief of the legal police at that time. When the division of the police was carried out, one of the conclusions reached by the Assembly was that the two police forces should cooperate in their work, and Senad Hodzic, in accordance with these instructions or this conclusion of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, went to reach certain agreements with his colleague Milutin Milosevic about this joint cooperation. He received official information that Chief Milosevic had gone to Belgrade to obtain the necessary equipment for the functioning of the Serb police station.

Q. And finally from the summary, page 14, paragraph 64, cultural property. Following the conflict, did you discover how many mosques or other religious buildings of the Islamic faith had been damaged or destroyed in your area?

A. They were destroyed. They were totally destroyed, ten mosques in the territory of the municipality of Bratunac. And also other places of worship were destroyed.

Q. Can you just give the names of any of those particular mosques, ²⁰¹¹² the names of the places of any of those particular mosques? Was there one in the centre of Bratunac?

A. One was in the centre of Bratunac. Then there was a mosque in Konjevic Polje. Then there was a mosque in Hrncici. There was a mosque in Glogovo. There was a mosque in Voljavica. There was a mosque in Zanjevo.

Q. Thank you.

MR. NICE: Finally with the witness, the exhibits. There are three of them, they can be dealt with very swiftly. May the bundle have a number.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 436, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: If that can go to the witness so that he can see in each case the B/C/S version of a document that we have had translated into English or B/C/S, as appropriate.

Q. Mr. Gusic, does the first tab of this exhibit, if you'd like to just briefly turn to it, set out in a way that you have approved and accept as accurate by signing the document your brief curriculum vitae?

A. Yes, this is my curriculum vitae in brief terms.

Q. Tab 2 of Exhibit 436, a document you've helpfully produced, setting out various dramatis personae at the relevant times: President of the SDS, SDS leadership, president of the SDA, and so on. Again, you've signed that on the original so as to assert its accuracy.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And finally, tab 3, is there a document that you had not seen before coming here but that you've reviewed while preparing to give ²⁰¹¹³ evidence, being, as we can see from the English language version, a document coming from the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac Crisis Staff and referring to a meeting held on a day unstated in 1992, except at the end it gives it as the 1st of January, 1992, and proclaiming a state of emergency on account of imminent war, asserting that organs of the Assembly of the executive committee of the municipality should cease working to be taken over by the Crisis Staff, that work related to public and state security should be taken over by the Ministry of the Interior of the Assembly of the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, public security station and Serbian Municipality of Bratunac, and defence activities should be taken over by the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Municipality - my emphasis - of Bratunac, parts of the reserve and active police force of the SJB of the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac, with all decisions, orders, conclusions and other documents in the area to be brought in by the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality. Now, that's the document. You hadn't seen it at the time. But does that reflect what actually happened in the takeover of Bratunac in due course?

A. It fully reflects what actually happened in the takeover of Bratunac. We can see from the document that the Serb Democratic Party and the Crisis Staff of that party had carried out all necessary preparations for the occupation of Bratunac that was to happen on the 17th of April, 1992 by military formations from Serbia and the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. You'll be asked further questions, and I hope you understand why it's been necessary to take your evidence in the ²⁰¹¹⁴ swift way that it has been achieved. Thank you.

A. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just clear up a technical point. This last document that was quoted from, is that the decision on the proclamation of the state of emergency on account of the imminent danger of war in the area of the Serbian municipality of Bratunac?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. You have it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Before moving on to specific questions, Mr. Gusic, what kind of a conflict occurred on the 17th of April, 1992 that Mr. Nice referred to when certain Serb forces took control of Bratunac? What kind of a conflict was it?

A. I am a witness of that day, that is, the 17th of April, 1992, when Serbian units from Serbia and units of the Yugoslav People's Army from Serbia entered Bratunac. They occupied Bratunac. Whereas, on the part of the Muslims in Bratunac, not a single shot was fired. So they took over control by military means and they embarked upon ethnic cleansing of Muslims from Bratunac municipality. They expelled all the Muslims, and there were 21 and a half thousand of them, and in the first month they killed 1.000 Muslim civilians, including children, women, and adult males.

Q. You didn't answer my question. What kind of a conflict occurred on the 17th of April?

JUDGE MAY: He has answered it. He's described what happened. He ²⁰¹¹⁵ said he was a witness of it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Tell me, what was it that you eyewitnessed? You said that the Muslim forces did not fire a single shot. Now, did you eyewitness that those forces that you call Serbian forces had fired a shot and at whom?

A. On the 17th of April, 1992 early in the morning I left my office and went to the office of the president of the municipality to discuss certain problems. In the street in front of the Fontana Hotel I saw soldiers in black uniforms armed with automatic rifles pointed at passers-by. I went to see the chief of police to ask him what kind of army had entered Bratunac. I was extremely surprised, in view of the guarantees that we were given by the Serbian Democratic Party that no external units would enter Bratunac. The chief of police didn't know what was going on. He sent two policemen to check whether what I was saying was true. The policemen quickly returned and said that a unit had entered -- that some soldiers had entered Bratunac, that they were standing in front of the Fontana Hotel with their barrels pointed towards the high street and the passers-by. We called the president of the municipality, Nijaz Dubicic, to ask him what was happening and to see whether he knew what was going on in Bratunac. Shortly after that, Nijaz Dubicic, the president of the municipality, arrived and said that he too was surprised. He picked up the phone to call the leadership of the SDS. He called Deronjic, he called Dukanovic, he called Simic; however, none of them answered the phone. The secretary said that they were busy and that they ²⁰¹¹⁶ were attending meetings. A little later, Miroslav Deronjic came to see us at the police station and said that military units from the outside had entered Bratunac, that the commanders of those units had said that we should go to the Fontana Hotel, and that if we didn't come, they would know what to do. We understood very well what this meant.

JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you. The question was whether the Serbian forces had fired. Could you make your answer simple.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 17th of April, the Serbian forces, until 16 or 1700 hours, while I was in Bratunac, did not fire any shots.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. I just wanted to establish that. So on the 17th of April there was no conflict in Bratunac that you eyewitnessed because you left Bratunac; is that right?

A. I left Bratunac on that day.

Q. So while you were in Bratunac, there was no conflict in Bratunac.

A. I think I've answered that question.

Q. Yes, yes, you have. Thank you. Mr. Gusic, you were president of the Party of Democratic Action in Bratunac municipality. That is stated in your statement.

A. Yes. I was president of the SDA from the 21st of March, 1992.

Q. Is it true that you were among the main Muslim organisers of paramilitary formations and illegal procurement of weapons together with persons such as -- I think he's your brother-in-law, Sabit Mujkic, Bahret Kubura, Enver Kubat, Izet Gusic. ²⁰¹¹⁷

JUDGE MAY: No point reading out a list. You can ask the witness about his involvement. You can then ask, if you want, about the involvement of others, but you must take one at a time. What he's put, Mr. Gusic, is this: That you were among the main organisers of a paramilitary formation. Did you organise a paramilitary formation?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no organised paramilitary formation in Bratunac. And of course I wasn't the person organising any paramilitary formation.

JUDGE MAY: The next question is: Were you involved in the illegal procurement of weapons?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not.

JUDGE MAY: Was there any procurement on the Muslim side of weapons?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the Muslims are concerned, the Muslims had, legally, pistols issued to them, those that had pistols. They had hunting rifles, again legally obtained, those that were hunters. And if someone had another weapon, then it was through the black market or something like that. As for me, I was not familiar with these things.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Your wife's brother, what is his name?

A. My wife's brothers --

Q. Yes, your brother-in-law.

A. My wife has four brothers. Which one are you referring to?

Q. I am referring to the commander of the Territorial Defence of ²⁰¹¹⁸ Bratunac municipality.

A. None of the four brothers of my wife was the commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality.

Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please: Do you know Sabit Mujkic?

A. I know Sabit Mujkic well.

Q. Who is he?

A. He was a professor of defence and protection, an honest man, a man of integrity, a man who never had any problems with the law. But it was his assessment that Bosnia and Herzegovina was threatened most by Serbia and the JNA and that there were certain plans by the JNA and Serbia to commit aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he said to me and to many others in Bratunac about this danger; however, many people did not believe him. So he spoke about it.

Q. What was the name of the commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality?

A. The commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality was Dzemo Hodzic. He was the last commander of the TO.

Q. And was Dzemo Hodzic a Muslim?

A. Dzemo Hodzic was a Muslim.

Q. And the composition of the TO of Bratunac municipality, did it reflect the ethnic composition of the population of Bratunac municipality?

A. I would not be able to tell you because I did not study those figures and didn't investigate those details.

Q. If you don't know, just tell me you don't know. We'll see what you do know and what you don't know. ²⁰¹¹⁹ Do you know the names I read out, Bahret Kubura, Enver Kubat, Izet Gusic, Mustafa Feridinovic [phoen], Hasim Hasanovic, Djugum, Sulejman Hodzic? Do you know those names?

JUDGE MAY: Have you -- just a moment. Let the witness answer. Did you follow that list of names which the accused read out? If not, we'll get him to read them out one by one and you can answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he read them out a little more slowly, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let me do that. Sabit Mujkic, Bahret Kubura, Enver Kubat --

JUDGE MAY: Stop there. Those three, do you know any of those?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know all three of them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Izet Gusic, Mustafa Feridinovic, Hasim Hasanovic, Djugum, Sulejman Hodzic.

JUDGE MAY: Those three, do you know them?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know those three as well. Who's the next one?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Sulejman Hodzic, Salcid Dzanic, Nurija and Nedzad Dzanic. Do you know all of them?

A. These last -- some of them I do know, some I don't or I can't remember.

Q. Very well. Do you know that these are all persons who were involved in the organisation of paramilitary formation and illegal ²⁰¹²⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹²¹ procurement of weapons in the territory of your municipality of Bratunac? Just tell me yes or no so that we can move on.

A. No, they did not engage in that.

Q. And do you know, Mr. Gusic, that there is a criminal complaint against you because of war crimes committed against the Serb people and it has been registered in the documentation centre of Republika Srpska? It is a publication called "Abstract from criminal complaints against those accused of war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina 1992-1995, January 1992 Banja Luka." It is stated with precision that you Dzevad Gusic are responsible -- are accused of war crimes. Do you know anything about that?

A. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that.

JUDGE MAY: One at a time. And remember the interpreters. Yes. Well, it follows the next question is this: It's alleged, apparently by somebody in Republika Srpska, that you are or were involved in war crimes. Is there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no truth in that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. You say that in Bratunac municipality members of all ethnicities lived together and in harmony but that in those days the Serbian Nationalist Party, as you called it, or passions increased among the population and that it became obvious that the Serbs were treating the Muslims badly, that they were intimidating them, and this was also reflected in politics in which the Serbian Democratic Party started increasingly overtly to reveal its aims. You say this on page 2, ²⁰¹²² paragraph 8, and page 3, paragraph 2, of your statement. Is that true, Mr. Gusic?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now, let me ask you: The course of events, was it slightly different? Or let me be more specific in my question: Is it true that the Party of Democratic Action had already then seen Bratunac and Bosnia as an Islamic state which did not recognise the Yugoslav authorities or its decisions? Just answer with a yes or no, please.

A. It is not true.

Q. And is it true that as early as the 1st of September, 1990 a foundation rally was held of the Party of Democratic Action in Bratunac in a highly militant atmosphere?

A. You need to specify which rally you're referring to and what it's about.

Q. I'm talking about the rally of the Party of Democratic Action of which you were the president - true, later on; before you it was Kavazbasic - and I'm talking about the rally held on the 1st of September, 1990.

A. The founding Assembly of the Party of Democratic Action - this was the founding Assembly of the SDA - was held, correct, on the 1st of September, 1990.

Q. And is it true that there were more than 1.000 Muslims who demonstrated in the streets, carrying various nationalist markings and threatening the Serbs and their main slogans were that Bosnia was Muslim and the Serb -- that Serbia belonged to Serbs and that the Serbs have to ²⁰¹²³ go to Serbia?

A. That is not true.

Q. So that's not true.

A. It is not.

Q. Very well. And is it true that already in mid-1991 the leadership of the SDA had organised illegal procurement of weapons and the formation of military units, elaborated plans?

JUDGE MAY: He's already dealt with this. He said earlier on that the Muslims only had legal weapons, they had no other. Now, we'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

Mr. Gusic, could you remember in this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Gusic, would you please look at page 5 of your own statement. Since you said that my claim in connection with Sabit Mujkic and his family relationship to you and the business he was involved in is not true. In the middle of the page, it says: "One day I was at my father's house --" This is one, two, three, four, five, six -- ninth paragraph. They are brief paragraphs on page 5. "One day I was at my father's house along with my brother-in-law, Sabit Mujkic, who had been commander of the ²⁰¹²⁴ Bratunac Territorial Defence prior to the position being taken by Dzemail Becirevic," et cetera. So does it follow from this sentence that Sabit Mujkic is your brother-in-law, rather than him not being that, as you said? And does it also follow, when I asked you whether he had been commander of the Bratunac TO and you said no, that that is in contradiction with what you said in your statement?

A. You asked me whether my wife's brother was commander of the TO staff of Bratunac municipality, and I told you that my wife has four brothers.

Q. Yes, I know what you said. And then I asked you specifically about Sabit Mujkic, because I read the English version and it says "brother-in-law." So whether that is your wife's brother or your sister's husband, it's difficult to tell, and it doesn't matter. You could have corrected me and said that he -- what he was. But the point is was he commander of the TO or not?

A. I gave you a correct answer to your question. As to whether he was commander of the TO staff, I answered that too. He used to be before, but not more recently. He was a teacher of defence and protection at the secondary school centre in Bratunac.

Q. Have we cleared up this point, that he previously was commander of the Bratunac TO and that he was your brother-in-law?

A. Yes.

Q. So the answer is yes to both my questions.

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Now, in the abbreviated examination-in-chief, you said ²⁰¹²⁵ that Milutin Milosevic from Serbia had been appointed chief of police. Is that what you said?

A. I said that the chief of the Serbian police in Bratunac was Milutin Milosevic, who before that was in the police station of Ljubovija.

Q. I took note carefully of this. You said "from Serbia." I have a statement here regarding the circumstances under which a Milosevic Milutin from Bratunac was killed. So would you please tell me whether there is something that is not correct -- anything that is not correct in this statement. The statement was given on the 8th of April, 1993, and it says that on the 29th of May, 1992 a message arrived at the police station in Bratunac that the regional road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje and Sarajevo was closed because Muslim extremists had put up a roadblock and by opening fire had prevented passage along that road. The chief of the public security station at Bratunac at the time, Milutin Milosevic, a native of Kravica --" which means that he was born in the village that you mention in Bratunac municipality -- "engaged a police platoon and I joined it. We went to the spot on the road close to the village of Lolic just behind Kravica."

JUDGE MAY: The witness can't possibly take all this in. Now, what is the statement you're reading from? Whose statement is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the statement by Branislav Milosevic, whose father's name is Nedeljko, born in 1956 in Bratunac. And the statement says, "Regarding the circumstances of the death of Milosevic Milutin." And it also goes on to say that the Muslims, the Green Berets, opened fire mostly from infantry automatic weapons so that a lot of people ²⁰¹²⁶ were killed straight away, Milosevic Milutin was one of them, and of the casualties listed were Petrovic Dragan, Milanovic Ivan, Milanovic Goran, and so on.

JUDGE MAY: Now the witness can't possibly deal with all of this. Is the point that you're trying to make that Milutin Milosevic did not come from Serbia but in fact he was a native of Kravica? That seems to be the point, which you can deal with.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

JUDGE MAY: Can you -- just a moment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what it says in the statement, Milutin Milosevic, a native of Kravica. And secondly --

JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with that first of all. What is suggested was that he was a native of Kravica. Can you help us with that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was like this: Whether he was actually born in Kravica, I can't say. But I do know for sure that he worked in the Ljubovija police station in Serbia and that from that position he came to Bratunac to be the chief of the Serbian police of the Bratunac municipality.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And do you know that when this ambush took place where Milutin Milosevic was killed too there was a total of 12 victims, amongst them two young girls and several other Serbs who happened to be in the vicinity, which makes a total of 12, and that there were around 300 Green ²⁰¹²⁷ Berets who held the position?

A. Well, I'd like you to give me a date. Could you tell me the date when that was?

Q. The 29th of May, 1992.

A. On the 17th of April, 1992, I left Bratunac, so I don't know about all that.

Q. All right. Fine. So you don't know about any of this; is that it?

A. No, nothing.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, are you going to accept this statement as an exhibit?

JUDGE MAY: No.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of the --

JUDGE MAY: No. We don't accept statements. You know that. You can call the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Gusic, tell me this, please: Is it true that in the first half of 1991 a certain man called Rizvo Muhic -- does Rizvo Muhic ring a bell? Is it familiar to you, from Bratunac?

A. No.

Q. Do you know anything about the formation of a unit numbering 50 fighters which was established by this Rizvo Muhic or anybody else? Did you hear about anything of that kind in the first half of 1991?

A. No, I know nothing about any of that. ²⁰¹²⁸

Q. And do you happen to know how that so-called Drina Division was formed, the nucleus of which was those 50 fighters set up by Rizo Muhic?

A. I really don't know anything about that.

Q. Do you know that it was precisely at the beginning of 1991, due to those events, the formation of the unit, many Serbs were already taking their children to safety and had them stay with relatives outside Bratunac? Were you aware of that going on?

A. Well, I do know that the Serbs on two occasions took their children, women, and elderly persons out of the Bratunac municipality, but under the SDA party activities and the regime in Serbia. They had no reason to do that otherwise, as far as the Muslims were concerned, as far as the Muslim behaviour in Bratunac was concerned. And they were supposed to do so with the aim of homogenising the Serb people as much as possible and to -- it was a form of exercise that the Serbian people underwent in order to place the Serb people under the unified command of the SDS and the Yugoslav People's Army.

MR. NICE: The transcript, line 12, 51.18 refers to SDA party. I think that's an error, and I imagine it's SDS party.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And is it true that in 1991 the verbal inter-ethnic clashes came to a head, as did relationships in general between people, that is to say, between the Serb and Muslim villages in your environment?

A. Yes, that is true -- the truth is that there was shooting from Serb villages every night and it was Muslim villages that were targeted. There was hardly a night that went by when Serb villages didn't target ²⁰¹²⁹ Muslim villages in the aim of intimidating and instilling fear in the Muslims in Bratunac.

Q. And is it true that in 1991 a certain number of young members of the Party of Democratic Action, that is to say, your own party, the SDA, illegally went to train in Croatia, military and police training in Croatia?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. All right. Fine. And is this true, that in Bratunac, after the establishment of the SDA, the extremists of the SDA used every sports event or cultural event to promote Islamic facets of life and that they organised different marches, rallies, meetings in towns and villages with the same emblems used and constant threats, saying that Bosnia was for the Muslims and that the Serbs should go to Serbia? Do you know anything about activities of this kind at all?

A. That's not true, and it is especially not true that the Muslims threatened the Serbs. The Muslims had great belief in their neighbours the Serbs and they wanted to live a life in common peaceably in those areas. And I can say with absolute certainty that over the past few years in Bratunac not a single Muslim even slapped anybody -- any one of his Serb neighbours or a Serbian in Bratunac, let alone any greater excessive situation taking place, as far as I know.

Q. Well, do you happen to recall the different rallies on the plateau -- that took place on the plateau in front of the Bratunac Municipal Assembly building from which the Serbs were threatened precisely at the time when you were there? ²⁰¹³⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹³¹

A. The Muslims did not threaten the Serbs.

Q. All right. Now, do you remember this, for example, a concrete case: It happened in the primary school in Kravica where for decades children came to school from the surrounding villages, and on that occasion the Muslims, to prevent their children mixing with Serb children, organised an ethnically pure school in Konjevic Polje, an ethnic pure Muslim school, and it was named Babo Hamza, where a religious situation was introduced. That is to say, instead of the situation for decades prior to that, instead of the Muslims going to the nearest school, which they did until then, a separate transport was organised for their children to Konjevic Polje paid for by the municipality in order for them to be able to attend an ethnically pure school?

A. I do remember that, but that's not how it was. The reason for which the locals of Konjevic Polje asked that their children attend school in Konjevic Polje was the killing that took place in Kravica where the Serbs made an ambush on the main road between Zvornik and Bratunac in the evening hours and shot at a passenger vehicle, a Lada, the make was a Lada, and two Bosniaks were killed and two others wounded. And it was after that act that the locals of Konjevic Polje demanded that their children go to Konjevic Polje to school, and the school in Kravica was further away for those children than was indeed the school in Konjevic Polje. So for most of the children, the Konjevic Polje school was closer.

Q. So for decades before that children went to a school that was further away than the one nearby; is that it?

A. That school hadn't been constructed yet. ²⁰¹³²

Q. All right. Tell me this, then: Do you happen to remember that already in the course of 1991 the complete weaponry of the Territorial Defence in possession of all companies and factories had been stolen and transferred to Muslim villages; about 1.000 long-barreled rifles, semi-automatic rifles, machine-guns, a large quantity of ammunition, and other military materiel and equipment, and that this took place as way back as 1991?

A. That is pure fabrication. The Territorial Defence did have weapons for its local defence, the defence of Bratunac should the need arise, and those weapons belonging to the Territorial Defence in the month of June, before the multi-party elections took place, were taken away by the Yugoslav People's Army and taken off to their own depots and warehouses, so that none of us had access to it, to those weapons. So that's pure fabrication.

Q. All right. Whether it is a fabrication or not, let's look at this: Is this a fabrication too? With respect to the role of the SDA in 1990 and 1991, mention is made in Besim Ibisevic's book about that, the president of the Municipal Assembly of Srebrenica, in February 1991 to April 1992. He is a historian by profession otherwise. And in the second half of 1990 in Nova Kasaba in a cafe, a meeting was held of the SDA members of Zvornik, Bratunac, Vlasenica, Visegrad, Kalesija, and Rogatica, and the presiding person was Mehmet Kavazbasic from Vlasenica, and on behalf of the SDA head board Ismet Kasumovic. And the decision made was to arm the Muslims, to set up guards, and to look into the possibility of blowing up the bridges across the Drina River and cutting across the main ²⁰¹³³ communication roads leading to Serbia. That's what he writes about in his book, Besim Ibisevic being the author. Did you hear about any of this, or perhaps you read about it or learnt about it in any way whatsoever?

A. I really don't know. I don't know what context this has been taken out of or when this was stated. I would have to read the whole text for me to be able to answer your question. But no, I don't know about any of these activities.

Q. And do you know anything about the secret advice and meeting at Igman of the SDA with all the representatives of the SDA and deputies in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the mayors belonging to the SDA party? Do you know about that? The meeting went on for several days. It was held in a hotel --

JUDGE MAY: When is it alleged this meeting took place?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again in 1991, negotiations in 1991.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And Alija Izetbegovic was expected to take the floor. This is something that Besim Ibisevic writes about in his book. It's an extract from Besim Ibisevic's book.

A. As far as Besim Ibisevic is concerned in his book, perhaps we ought to call him here -- the Court ought to call him in here to testify, but I don't know the document in question.

JUDGE MAY: Don't worry about the book, because obviously you can't be expected to know about that. But do you know anything about -- or did you attend, I suppose more accurately, a meeting at Igman involving ²⁰¹³⁴ SDA representatives of various municipalities and members of the Assembly? Do you know anything about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I myself really did not attend that meeting, so I don't know what they discussed, I don't know whether the meeting was held at all and what the decisions made were, if it was ever held.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Now, on page 2, paragraph 11, you state that the Serbian Democratic Party posed an ultimatum and insisted upon the division of power according to the 50/50 ratio, although they were in the minority, because you had, as you say, 52 per cent of the seats and the Serbian Democratic Party 40 and the Communists had 8. So what was all this about?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement. I take it to be that of the 15th of April. He's got one. He's got it. You've got it. Yes, you're being asked about this.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the first multi-party elections were held. The results were, for the Bratunac municipality, 60 deputies. 31 were from the SDA party, 24 deputies from the SDS party, and 5 deputies from the SDP and the rest of the political parties that took part. And the government had to be established in the Municipal Assembly first and then, later on, executive power and authority. In view of the fact that I have already spoken about the fact that in the technical mandate the former make-up of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac had changed the statute and brought in the decision on a two-thirds majority vote, it was not possible to convene a meeting of the Municipal Assembly with the new ²⁰¹³⁵ deputies unless all the deputies -- Serb deputies were in favour of having it convened, so that an ultimatum was set. They said, "We will convene an Assembly and constitute an Assembly if we divide up the power on a 50/50 basis." And as it was in our interest, we agreed to have this division of power and we hoped that it would be operational.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What ultimatum are you talking about? Wasn't it standard practice for decades in Bosnia-Herzegovina that no national community, no ethnic community should use outvoting in any way and impose on other ethnic groups its own decisions? So this was a decision on the work of the Municipal Assembly on the basis of a qualified majority and not on the basis of a simple majority.

A. By republican law, a law that was in effect for all the municipalities, it regulated the fact that decisions should be taken by majority vote. And in the majority of municipalities, this is how the system functioned. However, in this particular case, when the Bratunac municipality was asked, the statute was amended and this was targeted in advance and put into effect, into practice, in order to paralyse all political work and life.

Q. All right. But wasn't it logical for you that in the municipality, since there were both Serbs and Muslims and Croats living there, that there should be a balance among these ethnic communities that lived side by side and on an equality of footing within the municipality?

A. Well, we found it even more than logical. The Serbs in the municipality of Bratunac, although they were a minority people - they ²⁰¹³⁶ accounted for 34 per cent of the population - they had far more authority until then in the municipality than the Muslims did. So it is from that point of view that they were more than equitable. If necessary, I will give you a concrete example.

Of some 20-odd public companies, 80 per cent of them had Serbs as their general managers. We asked for this pattern to be changed later and that the general managers should be appointed on a 50/50 basis. However, the Serbs did not want this particular form of power to be shared.

Q. Is it correct, then, Mr. Gusic, that you started passing decisions by a simple majority vote in the Assembly and that you practically dismissed all the Serbs who had leading positions in the municipality?

A. We never passed decisions by a simple majority vote and we never dismissed any Serbs in Bratunac.

Q. Very well. But on page 3 of your statement, you say that a group of activists of the SDS visited the Secretariat for National Defence and that they demanded the handover of all the files listing the names of men who could be mobilised and that a JNA unit came there. Who asked for these lists? Was it the SDS or the JNA?

A. First it was the SDS, headed by Miroslav Deronjic, that requested this. There were a few activists there, headed by Miroslav Deronjic. They came to the office of the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence. They asked for these lists. However, since he did not have the power of his command in charge to hand over these lists, he did not give them to them. They threatened him and then he was compelled to call the police to help him, and of course the police had to intervene, to come there and to ²⁰¹³⁷ provide security for his office at the municipality, things like that. The activists of the Serb Democratic Party thus failed but then a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army came from Ljubovija, from Serbia.

Q. All right, Mr. Gusic. Now, was it from Serbia or from somewhere else, but at that rate wasn't the Yugoslav People's Army the Yugoslav People's Army throughout the territory of Yugoslavia? So there was not a JNA of Serbia or a JNA of Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

A. I'm just telling you they came from Serbia. That unit came from Serbia. We know that. We know that for sure.

Q. Do you know that things were somewhat different, that actually the army was supposed to take over this entire documentation according to a decision reached by the federal government, not according to the decision of any kind of SDS activists from Bratunac?

A. Well, then the activists of the SDS should be asked why they wanted to take this file away.

Q. As far as I know, they were just supporting the decisions reached by the federal government and they were trying to make sure that this be handed over to the army, not to them. Is that right or is that not right?

A. That was not my understanding.

Q. All right. Even if this were not your understanding, you nevertheless remember what happened, that is, that the SDA collected a considerable number of people and then you set up a roadblock around the municipality building and then there was the JNA on the other side and they wanted to take over these documents on the basis of the decision of the federal government. What about this roadblock? Was it actually ²⁰¹³⁸ facing the JNA?

A. First of all, the SDS rallied the Serb people together, because the activists of the SDS headed by Miroslav Deronjic, they did not manage to take these files away. Then the activists of the SDA called upon the people to gather at a rally in front of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac with a view to supporting the activists of the Serb Democratic Party, that pressure be brought to bear against Dzemail Becirevic, secretary of the Secretariat of the National Defence, to hand over these card files. However, at that time the police was protecting the municipality. We from the SDA, in view of the fact that it was a market day, Friday, in Bratunac, there were quite a few people who had come from the rural areas to do their buying and selling on that day. The news spread round among the people, this that had to do with the files, and then the Muslim people rallied together and they gave support to the legal government, the legally elected government of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac. And when the army came, on the one side were Muslims and in front of these Muslims there was the legal police protecting the legal authorities of the Municipality of Bratunac, and on the other side was the army. That unit of the Yugoslav People's Army, with all its weapons, and behind the army was a rather large mass of Serb civilians that were extending their support to the unit of the Yugoslav People's Army. So this was a very unpleasant atmosphere with high tensions, and it culminated when the major, who led this unit, issued an order to fire, and this was done. There were a few bursts of gunfire that were shot above the heads of the people who had gathered there. ²⁰¹³⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹⁴⁰

Q. Let us see what you wrote here in your statement. At the end of paragraph -- of page 3. "This JNA unit was commanded by a major whose name I do not know. He made threats and began shouting and arguing, again demanding that the files be handed over." So the JNA asked for the list to be handed over, not the Serb Democratic Party. And then you say, "He was joined by SDS officials and Serb police officers and some Serb civilians who happened to be in the street." And then we move on to the next page: "And the whole situation escalated and I had a great sense of foreboding of what might happen."

And then you say: "We had a crowd of approximately two to four thousand who remained adamant that they would not allow the JNA access to the municipality building. Soon after that the order -- the soldiers were ordered to fire into the air but we remained resolute and eventually the officer withdrew his soldiers and left, having failed to appropriate the files that he wanted."

Is that what happened? The JNA, according to the decision reached by the federal government, asked for documentation that had to do with the military obligation. You surrounded the municipality building by citizens, and they fired into the air in order to make it possible for them to carry out their assignment. However, they did not want to clash with the citizens and then they withdrew without having completed their assignment. Isn't that right?

A. There is something that was added to this other page in the statement, and I spelled it out in more specific terms, and it's the way I've been saying here into this microphone. Of course, that's not to say, ²⁰¹⁴¹ on the other hand, that what is written in this statement does not portray a picture of what I talked about.

Q. All right. But I just quoted your very own statement to you.

A. But there is an addendum. I talked to investigators here and I added something to this statement and I think you should have this addendum.

Q. Let's not waste time over these details now. Is it correct that the first misunderstandings and conflicts in the Municipal Assembly actually came about because of the recognition or non-recognition of the SFRY authorities and their decisions? Is that right or is that not right?

A. I really wouldn't know how to answer that question.

Q. Well, what you've been saying here about the conflict that had to do with the handover of military documents, is that the reason why this happened? It had to do with the recognition of the state authorities and organs of the SFRY and its decisions?

A. At that time this was high politics for me. I know that the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence did not have the authority from the command in charge to hand over these files, so these were the legal authorities at the time, and he respected the orders of his superiors and he acted according to these orders. As for the decision of the federal government, believe me, I don't know of its existence and I don't even know whether it's true.

Q. As far as I can see here, the army asked for these documents and you prevented them from taking these documents and the Serbs supported the decision of the federal authorities, that these documents should be taken, ²⁰¹⁴² that is. Is that what it boils down to, or are you trying to say something else?

A. Well, it's not that the Serbs were supporting the federal government authorities. Quite simply, the Muslims were afraid that these files would be taken away, and this was supposed to be used for forced mobilisation and to send these people to the frontline in Croatia.

Q. How do you know that it was to be used for sending reservists to Croatia if this was a federal government decision that the army should take over files concerning military conscripts? How would you know that this was done in order to send military reservists to Croatia?

A. I know that at that time there was some fighting at the frontlines in Croatia. Military conscripts were sent to the frontlines in Croatia.

Q. And you linked that up to the decision of the federal government to have the documentation taken over.

A. I really don't know about this federal government decision. Please don't ask me about it all the time.

Q. All right. But you say that the JNA had placed heavy artillery and mortars above the hills -- on the hills above Bratunac with the barrels facing town and that in the village of Vranesevici the JNA regular units were training local Serb civilians and that SDA activists went there to see with their own eyes these particular activities and then they duly reported that back to you. First of all, tell me, do you know for sure where the JNA units were and why this was so?

A. I know for sure that they were positioned in Vranesevici and that they were carrying out the training of Serb civilians to use weapons. We ²⁰¹⁴³ had information from several sources. I already said that one of the sources were the activists of the SDA who went there to see it with their own eyes. Another source were local people from the area around these villages, that is to say, the Muslim inhabitants of these villages that were near Vranesevici. And the third report came officially from the chief of police. He sent the police to the actual site. At first we did not know which JNA unit this was, and it is for that reason that the executive board of the SDA of Bratunac officially requested from the president of the Municipal Assembly, Nijaz Ljubicic, and the secretary, the municipal secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence, Dzemail Becirevic, to go to the military command in charge in Tuzla and to ask how come there was a JNA unit training Serb civilians in the village of Vranesevici in the municipality of Bratunac.

Q. And the answer you got was that they did not know about this, that any such training was being carried out or that there is any such JNA unit that was within the Tuzla Corps. How come the unit was there?

A. The answer we got was that they did not know about this, that they would check it out within three days, and that within three days they would come to the municipality of Bratunac and that they would do their best to have these problems overcome.

Q. Well, were these problems overcome?

A. After three days, they did not come to Bratunac but they telephoned, saying that this was not a unit from Bosnia-Herzegovina, rather, that this was a unit from Serbia, a unit of the JNA from Serbia and that they were not in charge in any way and they could not influence ²⁰¹⁴⁴ this in any way.

Q. So these people who said that they were not in charge were also in the command of the corps in Tuzla, the JNA corps; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So the JNA said to you that they were not in charge of the JNA?

A. That's the way it was.

Q. In this connection, did a meeting take place afterwards between your representatives and the SDS, and is it correct that in connection with the entire situation in Bratunac it was precisely you and the president of the SDS of Bratunac that issued a joint statement in order to reassure the population that everything would be just fine?

A. You see, this statement was made on behalf of all the citizens present at that rally that was held in view of the complex political and security situation in the municipality of Bratunac. On behalf of the SDA and on behalf of the SDS, there were the five top people present respectively, and all the other citizens were represented too, so this was a statement made on behalf of all the citizens. Our aim was to reassure the citizens, stating that solutions would be found in terms of future peaceful co-existence.

Q. This was your joint statement and your joint position at the time.

A. Of all the citizens who attended that meeting.

Q. So the Serbs, the Muslims, the representatives of the SDS, and the representatives of the SDA; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. No exceptions? ²⁰¹⁴⁵

A. No exceptions.

Q. And what you say on page 4 in paragraph 9, is that correct that the president of the SDS of Bratunac said to you then that the Serbs felt that they were a minority and they felt jeopardised because of the pressure that is exerted upon them by the Muslims?

A. He said that the Serbs in Bratunac were a minority and they could only trust the Serb police, that they could not trust anyone else, that there were some stories going round that Serbs could be jeopardised and that he wants to provide adequate security to the Serb people in terms of any possible jeopardy.

Q. Did he express concern then over developments in other parts of Bosnia due to the information that was coming in that Muslim units called the Green Berets were coming to Bratunac? You talk about that too in your statement.

A. He referred to the Green Berets, but he was aware himself that in Bratunac there were never any Green Berets or any kind of organisation that could upset these inter-ethnic relations, as regards the Muslim side, that is. He said this in order to achieve his objective; namely, to divide the police. That was the task he had, and he admitted it later, that Radovan Karadzic strongly pressured him to have the police in Bratunac divided into the Serb police and the Muslim police. Later on we found out why this was done, regrettably.

Q. A few minutes ago, during the abbreviated examination-in-chief, you said that a friend of yours said that a friend of his had spoke to Radovan Karadzic and said that Bosnia should be divided and -- who is this ²⁰¹⁴⁶ friend of yours who talked to Karadzic, and who is it that he told that Bosnia should be divided?

A. Osman Brka. You probably know him. At that time he was one of the top men in the SDA and he was there in headquarters and I think that he was an MP as well, and he told me that in the building where the SDA and the SDS were he happened to meet Karadzic in the hall and that Karadzic said that to him, that the Serb people should be separated.

Q. So he told you about his alleged conversation with Karadzic.

A. Yes, that Karadzic had said to him that this should be done, that this had to be done. And then he asked, "How could that be done? Do you see these big buildings here? Serbs live there. Bosniaks, Muslims, many others, and it's impossible to do that." And he said, "It has to be done. It has to be done."

Q. And when was this?

A. Well, this was before the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina started.

Q. Well, when was that, roughly? Will you try and recollect.

A. I really can't remember.

Q. Was it during the time when there were negotiations on the plan that was known as the Cutilheiro Plan? Was that in those days?

A. It was much earlier. I don't know exactly, but it was much earlier.

Q. Very well. Since you're unable to locate the event in time, tell me, since you mentioned the incident in which two Muslims were killed and two were wounded, was this the reason that resulted in the arrival of ²⁰¹⁴⁷ members of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina coming, one Serb, one Muslim, that is, Nikola Koljevic and Ejub Ganic? Was that the motive for their arrival?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And on the 4th of April, did Vitomir Zepinic, Deputy Minister of the Interior, and Avdo Hebib, advisor, and Enver Saric, chief of the Department of the Security Service in Tuzla, arrive as well, that is, a day prior to the arrival of Koljevic and Ganic? As I see Zepinic, Avdo Hebib, and Enver Saric, did they come also clearly to try and appeal the situation, to calm things down?

A. You see, this was not on the 4th of April. You said it was the 4th of April.

Q. No, I'm sorry.

A. The 4th of September, 1991.

Q. Yes, the 4th of September. Yes, I'm sorry. I made a mistake in the month.

A. It is true that they came in order to calm the situation down in Bratunac municipality and that their arrival was a function of that -- those efforts.

Q. Tell me, and just then, in connection with the barricade that you mentioned, there were constant Muslim roadblocks in the villages of Glogova, Branca, and Pervani. Do you remember that?

A. In Bratunac, up to the 17th of April, while I was there, there were no Muslim barricades in any part of Bratunac or in any part of the municipality of Bratunac. ²⁰¹⁴⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹⁴⁹

Q. So not in Glogova, Branca, or Pervani, there were no Muslim roadblocks?

A. No, that's for sure.

Q. So it is not true that vehicles of public transport were intercepted, citizens asked to show their IDs and so on? You know nothing about that?

A. I do know that it is not true.

Q. And do you remember that on one occasion in Pervani, the Serbs were forced out of a bus and the leader of the roadblock was Mehmed Alija Selimovic who boasted that he had attended wartime training in Croatia.

Q. And when was this?

A. This was in the autumn of 1991. I don't remember that, and I don't believe that it happened.

Q. And at the beginning of February 1992, was a meeting held of representatives of the SDA of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, and Vlasenica? Those from Gorazde couldn't come and the meeting was held at the hunting lodge near Srebrenica and the subject was preparations for war. This is also in Besim Ibisevic's book, and at the time you were president of the municipal board in Bratunac or was it your predecessor? This was February 1992.

A. If this was in February 1992, I was not president of the municipal board of the SDA in Bratunac at that time, so I really don't know that this happened.

Q. But what were you then when Kavazbasic was president?

A. I was a member of the executive board of the SDA and one of the ²⁰¹⁵⁰ three vice-presidents of the executive board of the SDA of Bratunac municipality.

Q. I see. So you as the vice-president were not aware of a meeting held in February 1992 of presidents and representatives of SDA of Srebrenica, Zvornik, and Vlasenica. You know nothing about --

A. I certainly didn't know about it nor did I know that it was held.

Q. Have you ever read this book by Besim Ibisevic?

A. I heard that he had written a book, but I don't know what it says.

Q. And is it true that it was precisely in those days, that is, beginning of 1992, that weapons were stolen from JNA depots? Do you remember that even a gun was stolen, a cannon, in February 1992?

A. And where? Where? You mean in Bratunac?

Q. In that area.

A. In Bratunac certainly not.

Q. This is also mentioned in that same book by Besim Ibisevic, this event. As you say that you hadn't read the book, I'm not asking you whether you saw it in the book, I'm asking you whether you remember the event he describes.

A. In Bratunac there were no cannon. I don't remember that anyone had taken a cannon from anyone, that is, that any Muslim had done that. I hear that for the first time.

Q. Were you personally armed, Mr. Gusic, tell me, in 1991/1992?

A. Apart from the pistol I had, I was not armed.

Q. So you had a legal pistol with a licence and you opened fire with it, again legally? ²⁰¹⁵¹

A. I opened fire with my pistol when I had to, when my life was in danger, as is explained in that statement of yours.

Q. And with that shooting, was that intimidation and did people start to move out? You speak about that in paragraph 6, second paragraph -- on page 6, paragraph 2.

A. There was constant shooting at night from Serbian villages on Muslim villages. As a result of that constant intimidation and liquidations of certain Bosniaks - I mentioned some examples - and the awareness that Serbs were being armed by the SDS and the Yugoslav army, the people slowly started moving out -- or rather, some individuals who trusted those reports started moving out.

Q. I am not asking you about the fire coming from Serbian villages against Muslim villages, as you are claiming. I'm asking you about this when you personally opened fire. You weren't opening fire from a Serbian village, I suppose.

A. No. That happened in front of my father's house. I went out in the evening with another three friends of mine --

Q. Your brother-in-law Sabit Mujkic, the former commander of the TO, et cetera, you were all armed, weren't you?

A. I don't know about them. I really don't know. But there was a burst of fire from the darkness at a distance of 150 metres. I got very scared. I didn't know what to do. I fired a shot with my pistol. After that, the shooting stopped and we managed to escape into Mahala in the darkness.

Q. I see. So you say they were firing from a distance of 150 metres? ²⁰¹⁵² Is that what you said? Or did they fire 150 bullets?

A. From a distance of 100 to 150 metres. It was dark. I don't know the exact distance.

Q. And who were they firing at?

A. They were firing at us, who had just left my father's house.

Q. But no one was hurt or hit.

A. Of course not. And it's a good thing that nobody was hit.

Q. When you say that that was normal, that means that nobody wanted to target you.

A. I'm not sure about that, in view of how it looked, and we heard the bullets whizzing by and hitting some buildings around us.

Q. I see. So they fired at you, a whole burst of fire from 100 to 150 metres, and no one was hurt? Very well.

On page 5, sixth paragraph, you say it was surprising to what extent each Serb without any exception changed and started to hate Muslims. What do you think -- first of all, is what you're saying really true, or was that perhaps in reaction to what the SDA was doing at that time?

A. The SDA really didn't do anything so awful or bad, nor did it give any cause to provoke such a reaction on the part of the Serb people towards the Muslim people. This was simply the result of systematic preparations by the Serb people to separate from the Muslim people, to get armed, to prepare themselves, and finally to occupy Bratunac municipality and to expel the Muslims and to kill a large number of them.

Q. Tell me, please, do you remember that sometime in April 1992 units ²⁰¹⁵³ of the JNA started to withdraw from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. I don't remember exactly when that happened, whether there was any withdrawal of JNA units from Bosnia and Herzegovina. I really don't remember that. But I do remember that there were some withdrawals of JNA units from Croatia and that they arrived with great frequency.

Q. Very well. You don't remember that. But do you remember that there was an order from the top echelons of the Muslim part of Bosnia and Herzegovina to block, prevent, and attack units of the JNA that were leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you remember that?

A. No, I don't remember that. I don't remember that there was any such order. If it had existed, I would probably know if any such thing had existed.

Q. I see. So you would know.

A. Well, possibly. I assume I would have heard it from someone.

Q. Well, I will quote now. "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Ministry of Defence, TO Headquarters Sarajevo, April 1992. Sarajevo. Order about the implementation of the decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," number so and so, 0211327/92, which doesn't matter anyway, "the decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," then the number I mentioned, "regarding the withdrawal of JNA units from the territory of BH, and because of violations of this Presidency decision and the beginning of plundering of the property of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina by the former JNA, I order to carry out complete and large-scale prevention and blocking of all roads in BH along which JNA units are withdrawing materiel in ²⁰¹⁵⁴ coordination with MUP.

"Secondly, blockade the surroundings of military facilities from which technical materiel is being withdrawn."

So this means that the JNA is withdrawing together with its equipment and materiel and it is -- the response is that it should leave that materiel behind.

JUDGE MAY: Before you go on -- before you go on reading. Do you know what the accused is talking about at all?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Ray I really don't know.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm talking about the order of Commander --

JUDGE MAY: You can't ask this witness. If he doesn't know anything about it, it's a pointless activity. No doubt you can ask some other witness or get it in in some other way. But asking this witness about it, who knows nothing, is pointless.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, have you noticed that the witness said a moment ago - and I am paraphrasing his sentence - that if any such thing existed, he would have known? Which is quite logical in view of the function that he performed in the Party of Democratic Action. Therefore, as he says that he would have known if any such thing existed, I am now showing him that such a thing did exist, and he now says that he doesn't know about it.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Look, you can produce it with some other witness, but it's pointless arguing about this witness -- about ²⁰¹⁵⁵ something he knows nothing about. We're just wasting time. Now, move on to something else.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Gusic, do you know of the order of the Minister of Internal Affairs Alija Delimustafic, dated also April 1992, ordering complete and large-scale blocking of all roads in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina along which units of the former JNA are logging their withdrawal and pullout of equipment and materiel in collaboration with MUP?

A. I have to say again that I know nothing about that order. And let me remind you that on the 17th of April, 1992 I left Bratunac. You keep saying that this happened in April.

Q. It could have been before the 17th of April and it could be after the April.

A. That is quite true. That is quite true.

Q. So you know nothing from the moment you left Bratunac on the 17th of April. From the 17th of April, you know nothing about Bratunac; is that right?

A. I do know some things, but I don't know about the things you've just asked me about.

Q. Very well. Up until the 17th of April and inclusive, not a single bullet was fired over there. Bratunac was not captured by force on the 17th of April. There was no shooting. There was no fire. This is what you told Mr. Kwon in answer to a question of his. So you don't know ²⁰¹⁵⁶ anything about Bratunac when anyone was firing any shots, and you don't know anything about these orders either. Is that right, Mr. Gusic?

A. Let us be specific: I said that on the 17th of April, while I was present in Bratunac - and this was up until 16 or 1700 hours, I don't know exactly - there was no shooting where I was, and that was in the urban part of Bratunac. As for before the 17th of April, I said several times that there was constant shooting at night from Serbian villages against Muslim villages and that there was even a calling that the Serbs from Kravica ambushed and killed two Muslims and wounded two others. I think I was clear.

Q. And do you remember that under those tense circumstances, on the 4th of April the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the complete name in those days was the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in incomplete composition, without Serb representatives, took a decision on the mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, the police, and the civil defence? This was on the 4th of April. Do you remember that decision?

A. I do remember that decision, a decision on mobilisation. Of course, I don't know whether the Presidency was complete or not. I don't know the details about the decision-making.

Q. I see. So you don't know that that decision was arbitrarily adopted exclusively by Muslim and Croat members even though BH was still a part of SFRY in those days?

JUDGE MAY: No point wasting time on these things.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁰¹⁵⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁰¹⁵⁸

Q. And do you remember that on the 6th of April, Germany and then the European Union recognised the sovereignty and independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its separation from the Yugoslav state on the basis of a referendum held again without the participation of the Serbs? Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I remember that Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised.

Q. And does the rule still apply that the three nations over there are equal in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

JUDGE MAY: No, no. Not a question for him.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true, do you remember, that on the 12th of April, that is, less than seven days after the recognition of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, Izetbegovic ordered an all-out and unprovoked attack on Yugoslav army facilities in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you remember that?

A. I couldn't tell you about those details. Perhaps you should ask President Izetbegovic about that.

Q. Will you now explain to me, please, your statement on page 6, paragraph 6. You said that on the 17th of April, a Serbian military unit arrived in town, that soldiers in JNA uniforms told you that it was a Serb municipality, that they were armed and organised and supported by the army. Those are your words I'm quoting. So if this was the JNA, if they were members of the JNA, could they say that they were supported by the JNA? Could you explain that for me, please.

A. Yes, I can explain. On the 17th of April, Miroslav Deronjic came to the police station and said that military units -- some military units, ²⁰¹⁵⁹ some formations had entered Bratunac and that the officers in charge of those units had said that we should go to the Fontana, that they were waiting for us, and if we didn't come, they would know what to do. When we got there, some of those officers were wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army; others were wearing camouflage uniforms. I don't know exactly what kind of officers they were and what kind of units they headed, but I do know that they said, among other things, "Bratunac is a Serb municipality. Serb laws must apply here. We want to establish Serb authority." They said they were just the forerunners and that the rest of the unit was in Ljubovija. As I was in a corner, as we were leaving, I heard one of them, one of these officers, telling another, "The unit in Ljubovija should be told that they need not come to Bratunac today. There are about one and a half thousand of them."

JUDGE MAY: It's time to adjourn.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In this sentence, you say - and I quote your sentence - "They told us that they were armed, well organised, and that they were supported by the army." This is what you say in your statement. So this was obviously some kind of local Territorial Defence claiming that they enjoyed the support of the army. They never -- you never mentioned the things you're talking about now.

A. Yes, I did, in the addendum.

Q. Oh, I see, in the addendum. We'll talk about those. I understand that we have to adjourn for today.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much more time do I have for ²⁰¹⁶⁰ tomorrow? Would you be kind enough to tell me, please.

JUDGE MAY: Twenty minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only twenty minutes?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Didn't you say that I would have the time I would normally have had the examination-in-chief not been shortened unexpectedly? And as you see for yourself, the plan was that it should take three hours. So I had reckoned with at least those three hours.

JUDGE MAY: No, three hours was the total time which was estimated for the witness. What we have allowed you is one hour and three-quarters, which we think more than sufficient.

Could you be back, please, Mr. Gusic, at 9.00 tomorrow morning. We'll adjourn.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

the 6th day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.