²⁰¹⁶¹

Tuesday, 6 May 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should just like you to explain something to me. This is the list of witness order provided to me by the opposite side, and the time provided, three hours. You explained yesterday that that applies to me too and that that is together. So can you tell me whether the opposite side is now limiting the time I have for my cross-examination too, or is that your job?

JUDGE MAY: No. That reference to time is purely an estimate which the Prosecution make as to the time which a witness is likely to take. It's not binding on anybody. It's merely a forecast. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. But I assume that you're bearing in mind the fact that this witness was the president of the Party of Democratic Action in Bratunac, and you also heard from the previous witness, who was a protected witness, that in that municipality, except two, all the other Serb villages were razed to the ground and the inhabitants that weren't able to escape were killed. So I don't see why I shouldn't have a little more time to question this witness. He must have known about these events.

JUDGE MAY: You can ask him about them now. We have in fact considered all these matters in setting the time available. Now, let us ²⁰¹⁶² move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you're not going to give me more time.

JUDGE MAY: Let's move on. Yes. We'll hear an application at the end, but start the cross-examination now.

WITNESS: DZEVAD GUSIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusic, yesterday during your testimony, you said that all the posts of leadership in the Bratunac municipality by and large were held by the Serbs, and you even went on to quote about 80 per cent, I believe. Is that right?

A. I was speaking about the public services, public enterprises in the Bratunac municipality.

Q. All right. Public, socially owned, whatever you like to call them, all of them together. But is it true that the director of the company called Vihor was Djordje Sead? Just give me yes or no answers, please, to save time.

A. That was an economic commercial enterprise. What I was talking about was not commercial enterprises. As far as commercial enterprises, there were directors who were Muslims and Serbs alike.

Q. Well, all right. Is it true then that Faho Djodjic was the director of the Kaolin factory?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true that Mujo Mujcic, another man, was director of the ²⁰¹⁶³ ceramics factory in Bratunac? Is that also true?

A. I think for a time, yes. I don't know when exactly. But you're talking about commercial enterprises. I was talking about the social services companies.

Q. And Edo Ahmic was he the director of Kartonaza?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And Cazim Avdic, a director of Feros company?

A. The Feros company was not located in Bratunac.

Q. What about Enver Hekic? Was he the director of the Autotransport company?

A. No, he wasn't.

Q. And is it true that Rifat Besic was director of the timber industry in Bratunac?

A. Rifat Besic died several years before the occupation of Bratunac took place.

Q. And is it true that Ahmic Selmanagic were director and deputy director of the Sase mine?

A. The Sase mine is not located in Bratunac. It is the Srebrenica municipality.

Q. Is it true that the director of the secondary school in Bratunac was also a Muslim by the name of Hasib Hasanovic?

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. And primary school, Taib Avdic, also a Muslim? Is that true too?

A. I don't know about the primary school.

Q. How come you don't know? ²⁰¹⁶⁴

A. I really don't know. There may be things that I don't know.

Q. Well, it's such a small place and you were the president of the party. I assume you ought to know.

A. Well, Taib Avdic, the name doesn't ring a bell.

Q. All right. You don't know him. And president of the court for misdemeanors, was he Bahret Kustura?

A. He was at one time president of the misdemeanors court, but of late he worked as an inspector in the municipality.

Q. And Hajro Halilovic, president of another court?

A. Bratunac did not have a first instance court.

Q. Well, he was in the area of one first instance court and the president was Hajro Halilovic; is that right?

A. Hajro Halilovic, as far as I know, was the president of the first instance court in the Srebrenica municipality.

Q. Did that first instance court cover Bratunac too?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Well, that's what I'm talking about. So what kind of Serb domination in Bratunac are you speaking about at all if all this is correct, what I have put to you?

A. You enumerated just a number of directorship posts, and you have a lot of misinformation there. You were wrong on many counts. I was talking about social companies in the social services and you were talking about commercial enterprises.

Q. Well, these are all socially owned companies.

A. But they also engaged in the private sector. ²⁰¹⁶⁵

Q. And Mujo Zukic, was he president of the Municipal Assembly? Is that true?

A. When the first party elections were held and when the government was constituted --

Q. Just give me a yes or no answer. Was he or wasn't he?

A. Ljubicic was president of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac and the Executive Board president was Djukanovic and these were parallel posts.

Q. And is it true that the chief of police in Bratunac was Senad Hadzic?

A. Senad Hodzic was elected as chief of police at the end of the 1991, and the commander of the police force --

Q. I'm not asking you about the commander. I'm asking you about this other man. Is it true that the head of the municipal department for national defence was Dzemail Becirevic?

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. We already established yesterday that the chief of staff for Territorial Defence was Safet Mujkic; is that right?

A. Not Safet Mujkic, not at that time, he wasn't the commander of the TO staff. I told you that yesterday. He was at some time before the commander of the Territorial Defence Staff but not during that period of time. Safet Mujkic was not territorial commander at that time.

Q. And who was, then? Who was it?

A. It was Dzemo Hodzic.

Q. Is Dzemo Hodzic a Muslim too? ²⁰¹⁶⁶

A. I answered that question yesterday and said he was, yes.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, as you're saying there was absolutely no cause and that on the 17th of April although there was no fighting certain forces were in Bratunac. Mr. Gusic, are you aware of the fact that on the 14th of April, that is to say several days prior to that, a column of cadets from Rajlovac near Sarajevo, which was withdrawing with its weapons and materiel through the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in keeping with the federal government, was attacked in the village of Hranca, this column of cadets. Do you remember that?

A. That is absolutely not true.

Q. You don't know that there was shooting from an ambush attacking the column of cadets from Rajlovac and that many of them were seriously wounded and injured and all the rest of it?

A. Well, I do apologise, but I have to say that that is pure fabrication.

Q. Well, people are watching these proceedings from Bratunac and will be able to assess themselves which of the two of us are telling the truth, you or I.

A. Of course we are being watched, the proceedings are being watched, and I have taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth and I stand by each word I utter and I'm ready to be held accountable.

Q. Do you know about the brothers Ramic from Bratunac? Have you heard of them, Abdurahman and two others? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. And do you know what Nezir Ramic's sons are called from Bratunac? ²⁰¹⁶⁷

A. No, I don't.

Q. And do you know of the Hadzic brothers from Hranca and Redzo Arifovic and his brother Zoka? Have you heard of them?

A. No, I really haven't.

Q. Well, according to my information, all these were individuals who organised the ambush of the cadets column from Rajlovac and the shooting that took place when they were shot at.

JUDGE MAY: You know quite well you are not to put something which the witness denies happened. It's a complete waste of time to go on putting the same thing.

Now, we have considered your application for more time. We will give you a total of 35 minutes this morning, which gives you a quarter of an hour extra. But you won't get any extra time if you waste it by putting the same things over and over again.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'm not repeating the same things, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But do you know that it was the JNA's task to prevent conflicts and attacks, first and foremost to protect the units of the JNA which were withdrawing from Bosnia and to disarm the Muslims and Serbs and to prevent conflicts between the two?

A. That observation of yours is not correct. It was the task of the Yugoslav People's Army in concrete terms in the Bratunac municipality was to arm the Serb population in Bratunac and to lay down all the necessary preparations. ²⁰¹⁶⁸

Q. Would you answer my questions, please. Have you heard of Ejub Golic?

A. Yes, I've heard of the name.

Q. Did you hear that he was from the village of Glogova, from the Bratunac municipality? Just yes or no.

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. Is it true that at the end of 1991, he organised barricades, roadblocks, and the local police-controlled checkpoints at which they would stop Serbs and mistreat them?

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. You don't know about that. And is it true that later on he became the commander of the infamous battalion of the 28th Division from Srebrenica?

A. I don't know about this. I was in an encirclement in Bratunac in Glogova, Srebrenica, from the 17th of April. On the 17th of April, I left Bratunac.

Q. I'm talking about the end of 1991 and the Mountain Brigade.

A. No. I don't think anybody was involved.

Q. Where were you yourself from the 17th of April onwards then?

A. From the 17th of April onwards, for a time I was in Gradacac, and then I was in Banovici, and then in Tuzla, and Kladanj, and so on. That's where I stayed for a time and was on assignment.

Q. But I'm sure you were interested about what was going on in Bratunac in the meantime and you followed all the events taking place there. ²⁰¹⁶⁹

A. Well, of course I was interested in that. And as far as I was able, I did always like to get news from Bratunac to see what was going on. That's quite normal.

Q. All right, Mr. Gusic. Yesterday you claimed here that as an activist of the SDA and one of the vice-presidents, you knew nothing about the existence of any kind of Muslim armed formations in the Bratunac area in the period between 1991 up until your departure; is that right?

A. It is right. They did not exist on the territory of Bratunac. No kind of Muslim formation existed.

Q. And you also said you knew nothing about the existence of the so-called, and can I call it infamous, Patriotic League of Nations in the Bratunac municipality in 1991 and 1992 and its units; is that right?

A. Well, you're calling it the Patriotic League. I think that as regards those activities, it's not even worth mentioning in view of the fact that Bratunac was a peaceful place, calm place, which offered in resistance on the 17th of April. Not a single bullet was shot by a Muslim at all which would merit ethnic cleansing on the part of Serb formations after the 17th of April, the killing thousands of Muslim civilians, men, military-able men, elderly men, women, children, and so on.

Q. Yesterday we noted that nobody fired a single bullet on the 17th of April. Now, do you know the name of Nijaz Masic at all?

A. Yes, I do know that name. It does ring a bell, sounds familiar.

Q. Did he write a booklet of some kind about Bratunac which was published in 1996? Do you know about that?

A. Nijaz Masic was an historian and he always collected information ²⁰¹⁷⁰ and data, and yes, he did write a book about Bratunac, a leaflet about Bratunac.

Q. In the introduction to his book, in the preface, it says that during his work, he consulted all important commanders of units and representatives of political and state bodies of the Bratunac municipality. And then he goes on to say and that he would like to express his gratitude to Professor Dr. Tarik Kulenovic especially, Dzevad Gusic as well, that is to say to you, Gusic, and Sabic and professor Ibrahim Tepic. So he expresses his thanks to four people, amongst whom is your name. I assume you know that.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. All right. Tell me, then, in that book, as an historian, he states the following: With his -- its party line, the Party of Democratic Action from the beginning of September 1991 organised village guards, village watches. Is that true? Is that correct?

A. Well, as far as the village watches --

Q. Just say yes or no, please. Give me a yes or no answer.

JUDGE MAY: Don't interrupt the witness like that. You mustn't harry him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd be very grateful to you, Mr. May, if --

JUDGE MAY: Now, don't interrupt, and let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

JUDGE MAY: We've got no translation.

THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English on this channel? ^{20171 BLANK PAGE 20172}

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, I said during my statement that there was controlled night shooting from Serb villages against Muslim villages. This went on for days and days. So the locals from these villages, the Muslims from Muslim villages, organised village guards because they were terribly frightened and worried about everything that was going on. So that is correct.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Since it's correct, then he says the following: "The delegation of the SDA of Bratunac consisting of Nijaz Dubicic, Sabit Mujkic, Azem Dzanic, and Dzemail Becirevic took part in the meeting of the initiative committee of the communities from the Drina area in order to establish the Patriotic League of the Tuzla district held on the 16th of July, 1991 in Srebrenica. That meeting is well-known under the name of the Drina Region Initiative."

So in July 1991, you established a Patriotic League, and this Drina Region Initiative is referred to here. And you say that you know nothing about the organisation of the Patriotic League in your area, although this man thanks you for the -- for having consulted him in the preparation of this book.

A. Well, see, as far as acknowledgments are concerned, I did give a contribution, I did talk to the distinguished Professor Nijaz Masic, and I told him about certain political activities and political developments. That is to say in relation to this particular period in Bratunac before the war and up to the 17th of April.

And now as for this allegation that you're making or, rather, what ²⁰¹⁷³ you've read allegedly from this book, I don't know whether this is exactly what it says in the book, but if it is what it says, then it is probably the author's right to write something like that on the basis of some information. I would not like to go into this. Perhaps he should be asked about this. But what I would like to tell you for sure is what I know myself.

At that time, we from the Party of Democratic Action did have information, that is to say verified information, that the Yugoslav People's Army and the Serb Democratic Party were arming the Serb people and that they were carrying out preparations among the Serb people for a possible war. We had information that the Serb Democratic Party --

Q. I'm not asking you that, sir.

A. -- established a Crisis Staff for the municipality of Bratunac and for all the local communes. We had information that constant intimidation was going on against the Muslim people, and we also had several cases of beatings --

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, Mr. Gusic, we've heard that, I think. If you'd just concentrate on the accused's questions.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really am sorry. I felt it was necessary for me to say this in order to clarify the following: As the committee of the SDA, we had requests coming from people stating that we should organise ourselves to defend Bratunac or, rather, against an attempt to occupy Bratunac by Serb formations and by the Yugoslav People's Army from Serbia. So it is under these circumstances, under such circumstances that I've just described we from the SDA charged a certain ²⁰¹⁷⁴ person with particular duties. We gave him a free hand in order to organise defence in Bratunac against a possible occupation of the municipality. And I have to say with regret that this was never successful. This person tried to talk to people in the area --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I hope that you are really going to cut this short, this speech of yours over here.

A. Well, yes. I'm going to try to cut it short. So we charged Sabit Mujkic with this. We already discussed this yesterday. And in view of this danger and in view of the great danger involved, all of this happened before 10 -- I mean, everybody who could, left Bratunac ten days before the occupation of Bratunac took place, whenever they could. So it wasn't really that much was done in this particular field.

Q. Well, that's what you're saying now, but what it says here, what is written here is that the president of the municipality and Sabit Mujkic, as commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac, was at a meeting at the 11th -- on the 11th of January 1991 in Tolsic, in the municipality of Kalesija and, at the request of the Bratunac delegation, a decision was passed to send Samir Nisovic to Bratunac to coordinate the work of the Patriotic League of Bratunac.

So a Patriotic League of Bratunac was already established, and he, on the 11th of January, got the assignment to coordinate the work of the Patriotic League of Bratunac. Is that correct or is that not correct?

A. As for the establishment of the Patriotic League, it was never established in the municipality of Bratunac. An attempt was made to have ²⁰¹⁷⁵ something done, but it failed and it was for the reasons that I already referred to.

Q. But it says here Samir Nisovic, and I mean I'm just quoting what is written in this book, immediately started carrying out this assignment. He arrived in Bratunac. First the SDA of Bratunac in 1991 established a Patriotic League for Bratunac while its military establishment was carried out in February 1992. That's what it says here.

He has helped the military establishment of the Patriotic League and it was indeed established under the auspices of the SDA of Bratunac in February of 1992 in Voljevica at the premises of the local commune of Voljevica. So that is what is written here in his book, and he thanks you for the consultations he carried out with you. So is this correct or is this not correct? Just tell me that.

A. I'm really going to give you a precise answer now. I think that this should get over with. When I became party president on the 21st of March 1992, there was no Patriotic League. Nothing had been done in concrete terms for this Patriotic League to be able to function in this area. There were only attempts that had been made, just attempts.

Q. All right. So your answer to this question of mine is that what this man has written here is incorrect.

A. It is correct to the effect that an attempt was made to have something done.

Q. But he's not writing about an attempt. So you are saying that this is not correct.

A. Well, you see, historians probably have information of their own, ²⁰¹⁷⁶ they have their own reasons for writing things, and I wouldn't like to go into all of that.

Q. But he says the Patriotic League of Bratunac decided that the Patriotic League Staff should consist of people who had certain military skills, and then he enumerates some names. So you know nothing about this and all this was just an attempt?

A. All of this was just an attempt.

Q. Very well. It says here that in most of the free territory, the municipality of Bratunac in Konjevic Polje a War Presidency was established with the most political prominent representatives of all parts and links were established and agreement was given to establish a War Presidency of the municipality of Bratunac as a political organ of government, and one of the most important decisions reached was the establishment of a municipal Crisis Staff of the municipality of Bratunac and Velid Sabic was appointed as commander. Is that correct?

A. Please, could you tell me first what are the dates involved specifically.

Q. Well, this War Presidency is the 16th of July, 1992, and I can see that you know very well what this is all about.

A. Well, this was carried out when the occupation of Bratunac was carried out, when the ethic cleansing of villages was carried out and when thousands of civilians were killed, thousands of Muslim civilians in Bratunac.

Q. Yesterday you said that the Serbs established some police of their own that had some kind of a hostile attitude towards the Muslims; isn't ²⁰¹⁷⁷ that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And this is what is written here. It seems to be the other way around, that the Serbs had been endangered. And then, in agreement with you, they established a police through which they will be -- they will feel more secure and safer it says. In a confused situation, the SDS were catered to and a separate militia was established. On the 8th of April, 1992, that is to say that you were still there, the Executive Board of the SDA met, that is to say of your party, with the club of Assemblymen of the SDA in Bratunac headed by Dzevad Gusic, president of the SDA for Bratunac. And they passed a decision to agree to the establishment of a Serb militia, Serb police, with particular reference to some item 13 and so on and so forth.

And then it says later --

JUDGE MAY: No. One thing at a time. The witness cannot possibly deal with this in this way. Just a moment. Let the witness answer. Now, what is alleged is that the Executive Board met on the 8th of April with the club of Assemblymen of the SDA headed by yourself. Was there such a meeting, Mr. Gusic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such a meeting was held. And yesterday I talked about the pressures made by the SDS, and they were headed by Miroslav Deronjic to divide the police, and he said that they could wait no longer and there was direct pressure coming from President Radovan Karadzic and that we had to choose, allegedly, that we would either have peace in Bratunac or -- ²⁰¹⁷⁸

JUDGE MAY: You've told us that. So is that the meeting which is referred to, that one on the 8th of April? Yes. Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. The meeting we've heard about.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And then he says there was a meeting of the Municipal Assembly where the establishment of the Serb police was legalised, and he says that in honour of the agreement reached, all of those present went to the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac for a drink. This was on the 9th of April, 1992. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Gusic?

A. I'm going to explain this to you. At this meeting of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, we told all the Assemblymen present, and in addition to those from Bratunac there were other citizens who were present. The hall was full. Perhaps there were some 200 persons present. The president of the Serb Democratic Party, Miroslav Deronjic, presented these requests to have the police force divided, and we explained why this police should be divided. We said that we are in a position to choose, either to have peace in the area or to have somebody from the outside come and occupy Bratunac, as was already the case in Bijeljina and Zvornik. And we put forth 13 prerequisites, conditions, in order to have this accepted, and they were the following: That a unit of the JNA --

JUDGE MAY: Since time is fairly short, I must ask you to answer the question. Is it right that on the 9th of April you went to the Fontana Hotel for a drink? Did you all go there or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We from the Party of Democratic ²⁰¹⁷⁹ Action wanted to do our best in order to secure peace in Bratunac, and this was a move made by our side to show that we were in favour of peace and co-existence and that there was no need for anyone from the outside to come to Bratunac, which all means that yes, this is correct.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As opposed to your testimony yesterday, is it correct then that the Serb police was established in Bratunac through legal means, that is to say at a meeting of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac?

A. Well, you see, you cannot call this a legal meeting because the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac was not a legal organ that could have split up the police. You know that, as far as police is concerned, the republic was in charge of that.

Q. So why were you engaged in this illegal activity? Now you consider it to be illegal and then you took part in it, and you were appointed head of that delegation of the SDA that proposed this, that is, for the Serbs to have a police.

A. I was president of the Executive Board of the SDA for Bratunac and it is only natural that I headed these negotiations. At that time, we wanted to do our best only to prevent the occupation of Bratunac, that is to say something like what happened in Bijeljina. And I think that I've repeated this at least ten times and I believe that this is quite clear, more than clear.

Q. It's more than clear to me and I think that it's more than clear to everybody in Bratunac.

These people who were armed, the people you described, were they ²⁰¹⁸⁰ members of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac or of the JNA?

A. What people do you mean?

Q. Those you saw on the 17th of April, those who were in the streets. Was that the Territorial Defence of Bratunac or the JNA?

A. These were some military formations from Serbia. There was a certain unit of the Yugoslav People's Army there.

Q. Which unit of the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. I don't know exactly which unit it was. That was there then, I mean. I know that they were present, though, because they wore JNA uniforms. I wore that kind of uniform when I did my military service in Belgrade in the neighbourhood of Vozdovac in 1984. And then when I left Bratunac on the 17th of April, after awhile when the ethnic cleansing had been carried out of all the Muslims, when all the Muslims were cleansed from Bratunac, they brought me a document. This JNA unit was under the command of Svetozar Milosevic, a colonel, and he signed that document, that proclamation on behalf of the Drina group. And he had been appointed by the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army from Belgrade.

Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you which unit this was, and you say that you don't know. Please, do you know, though, although you said a few minutes ago that you followed events in Bratunac and now you say that ethnic cleansing was carried out, so what do you say to the fact that all Serb villages in the municipality of Bratunac except for two were razed to the ground and their population was killed entirely except for people who managed to flee to Bratunac or to Drina -- or to Serbia across the Drina River? Is that ethnic cleansing or what do you ²⁰¹⁸¹ call that?

A. First of all, this piece of information is not correct.

Q. All right.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He says it's not correct. What more is there for him to say to that?

JUDGE MAY: It's being put that the Serb villages were razed. Were any of them razed at any time?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 17th of April, I left. After that, there was ethnic cleansing of all Muslims. All the Muslims from Bratunac were expelled, 21.000.

JUDGE MAY: You've told us that. Forgive me, but time is short. You've told us that. Did anything happen, to your knowledge, to the Serb villages. That's the question you're being asked.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, only Serbs remained living in Bratunac, and during the war they engaged in certain combat operations. I was not a participant so I'm not qualified to talk about them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Are you aware of the event in Konjevic Polje on the 27th of May when columns of trucks were ambushed? These trucks were transporting bauxite. Workers were on board. No one was armed. When a group of drivers driving those trucks, who were Serbs, were killed, the vehicles damaged, an act of sabotage, traffic stopped, people killed, workers. They were not soldiers or I don't know who, any kind of ^{20182 BLANK PAGE 20183} politicians. They were simply workers, drivers driving truckloads of bauxite.

A. I don't know that but I think it is not true.

Q. I see. So you think it's not true. I have here a list of the names of people who were killed.

A. I will tell you now you will have more witnesses who are more qualified to talk about that, and I would like to ask you to discuss that matter with them.

Q. Well, I can't talk to the people who were killed, but I can tell you that the attack was carried out upon orders of Ferid Fodzic, whose father's name is Avdo. And the actual perpetrators were Semsudin Salihovic, Munib Alic, Meho --

JUDGE MAY: You're not going to get away with this. The witness knows nothing about it. If you want to call your evidence about the incident as alleged, you can do so but you can't put it to the witness. In fact, you've got one minute left, so that's time for two questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a lot of questions left, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that on the 29th of May, in the village of Sandici on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, an ambush set by these non-existent forces, according to you, ten policemen were killed? Is that true?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. I see. So is it true that in an attack on the Serbian village of Gornji Magasici in Bratunac municipality on the 25th of June, 1992, 12 ²⁰¹⁸⁴ civilians were killed, Serbs?

A. I think the information is not true. I wasn't there at that time so I'm unable to comment.

JUDGE MAY: You've had your time now, ample time. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusic, is it true that you attended a meeting with Serbs, you yourself, and that at that meeting you suggested to your Serb neighbours that joint guards be formed to protect each other? Would you tell us who did you need to protect yourself against together with the Serbs?

A. You see, we had received certain information that military formations from Serbia and the JNA would occupy Bratunac. We had that information based on the facts that this had already happened in Bijeljina and Zvornik. So we tried, with our Serb neighbours, to discuss the matter, saying that we were neighbours, that we had been living together for many years, that we knew each other very well, and that we should remain on good terms regardless of the times that were coming, and that we should jointly organise these guards in the streets and areas where people were living together, co-existing multi-ethnically, and that was the reason why I had that conversation.

Q. So if I understood you correctly, you were talking to Serbs, that the Serbs protect themselves against the Serbs and the JNA.

A. Yes, from the Serbs coming from Serbia and the JNA. ²⁰¹⁸⁵

Q. Thank you. Also, at a meeting with representatives of the JNA, you went there to raise a number of questions, among others why they were hastening into war; was that right?

A. That was a meeting with the leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party, and the leadership of the SDA was present as well as prominent citizens from Bratunac, both Serbs and Muslims. There were about 60 or 70 people attending, and then we asked the Serbs why they were rushing into war, why were people being trained militarily, and why was the JNA and the SDS training people in the village of Vranesevici while the barrels of guns were turned towards inhabited areas in Bratunac, why we needed that.

Q. Thank you. You already explained that when you were questioned during the examination-in-chief. I'm asking you, did you know at the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 what had happened in Croatia and Slovenia?

A. Yes, we had information about that.

Q. And didn't you know that certain things had already happened over there which had increased tension between the peoples living in those areas?

A. Yes. We knew about that, but the problem of the Muslim people specifically was that they trusted their Serb neighbours. They had lived together for a long time on good terms. And the Muslim people in Bratunac could not imagine that such a situation would occur. There were individual Muslims who were aware of what was happening and who tried to open the eyes of the others as to what was about to happen, but generally speaking, the Muslims trusted their Serb neighbours. ²⁰¹⁸⁶

Q. Thank you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would you please look at Exhibit 436, tab 1. You will find there the document in which the witness gave his personal data, and also there's a part about his career. So would you please look at that document in the Serbian language. It has been signed by Mr. Gusic on the 2nd of May, 2003. And now I would like to ask him something in connection with the second paragraph that has been translated into English where there is talk of his working experience.

Q. Mr. Gusic, you said here to the Prosecutors the other day that on the 17th of April, 1992, you left Bratunac. You were in Gradacac, and you returned about a month later; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did you say later, after that, that a month after the 17th of April, that is in May, you joined a unit of the army of BiH consisting of about 400 combatants as a regular soldier; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. The commander of this unit was Nurif Rizvanovic. The unit spent a month in Banovic municipality close to Tuzla and then later you joined the troops of the BH army in Bratunac and Srebrenica. Is that right? Does that mean that a month after the 17th of April this unit numbered 400 combatants and all of them were armed? Is that true?

A. It is true that the commander Nurif Rizvanovic had, out of the expelled Muslims after the cleansing of Bratunac municipality, he rallied a sufficient number of combatants, about 400 of them, who were ready to return to a part of the free territory of the municipality, that is ²⁰¹⁸⁷ Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica, and those 400 fighters managed to pass between the lines and to return into that encirclement together with the commander Nurif Rizvanovic who succeeded in arming all 400 fighters.

Q. But weren't you a member of that unit and weren't you armed?

A. I spent a month in that unit and then I needed to go to Croatia where my family was. In the meantime, while I was in Croatia, this unit passed between the lines and entered a part of Bratunac municipality territory that is Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica.

Q. Yes, but it says here that you returned to Tuzla and joined the Bratunac unit under the command of the 2nd Tuzla Corps. Is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. So you spent some time there from the end of 1992 to the beginning of 1993 as a part of that armed military unit.

A. Correct.

Q. And is it true, Mr. Gusic, that during that time you were assistant commander for morality of commander Becir Mekanic? Is that right?

A. Yes, it is right.

Q. What does a person who is responsible for morale in a unit actually do?

A. As far as my duties as assistant commander for moral guidance is concerned, they consist of the following: My duty was to regularly brief the combatants about all events on the front within Bosnia and Herzegovina, also to inform them about all important political developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the world. ²⁰¹⁸⁸ A second part of my duties was to work on preparing the combatants for performing their duties responsibly.

A third part of my duties was to make it possible for combatants to freely practice their faith and to engage in religious rights. And a fourth part of my duties was, together with the logistics department, to ensure for the combatants cigarettes, newspapers, hygienic material, and so on.

Q. In other words, as from May 1992 up to 1993, you were continuously a member of the armed units of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Now, one more question. The last sentence says: "I personally did not see any atrocities." That's what you said.

A. Where is this sentence?

Q. The last sentence of your statement of the 15th of April. You say, "I personally did not eyewitness any atrocities." Is that correct?

A. Could I please say which context?

Q. You later on heard about things. It is the last sentence of your statement.

A. You mean the statement of the 15th of April, 1999?

Q. Yes.

A. That probably refers to the date of the 17th of April.

Q. Well, I will find the sentence for you.

A. Yes. Well, you read the sentence.

Q. Would you like to read it for yourself, please.

A. It is very important to read this sentence: "That is how I ²⁰¹⁸⁹ escaped the horrors that I learnt later happened in Bratunac and surrounding villages." This is a reference to ethnic cleansing. So I was not a witness to any of the atrocities myself, but I am aware of what took place there as naturally they will have been discussed on many occasions subsequently.

Q. Thank you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And thank you, Your Honours.

MR. NICE: A couple matters, Your Honour. Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. You were asked about paragraph 28 of the summary, that is the visit of MUP officials Koljevic, Galic, and others and about the events associated with that visit. You told us about an assertion that the investigation into events would not take place. Do you remember? Ganic said the perpetrators would be caught. Koljevic travelled to the location and spoke to a larger gathering of Serbs.

What was it that Koljevic said?

A. It was agreed -- Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Ganic first came to see the president of the municipality of Bratunac, and it was agreed that two major rallies be held, one in Bratunac and another in Kravica. In Bratunac, it should have been a multi-ethnic rally that both of them addressed to tell the people that an investigation would be carried out and that the perpetrators of the killing that occurred in Kravica would be discovered and treated and punished in accordance with the law. And Messrs. Koljevic and Ganic were to go to Kravica together to address the Serb peoples with the same message and with the same promises. ²⁰¹⁹⁰ Mr. Koljevic, on his own initiative, that is without the other Presidency member, Mr. Ganic, went to Kravica and spoke to the Serb people in Kravica and told them on that occasion not to worry, that no investigation would be initiated in connection with those killings. Also at the same time, I had occasion to hear Radovan Karadzic on the radio who said to the Serb people that the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina would not carry out an investigation into that matter and that he was guaranteeing that.

Q. Thank you. You spoke on a couple of occasions about the movement of some Serbs away from the area of Bratunac. This is dealt with at paragraphs 31 and 46 of the summary. Was that a genuine movement or was there anything about it that you doubted as to its genuineness?

A. We had two cases in the few months prior to the 17th of April when a certain number of Serbs moved out of Bratunac. These were mostly elderly people, women, and children. This happened on two occasions, the first time after this killing carried out by the Serbs in Kravica when they killed two Muslims and wounded another two. In those days, the Serbs had no reason to move out of Bratunac.

The second alleged reason that they gave, regardless of the fact that they had liquidated those Bosniaks, they claimed that they were in danger. And this was at the beginning of April, I think it was the 1st of April when, on the 30th of March, Serb military units entered Bijeljina and occupied Bijeljina and committed certain atrocities over there so that in the first days of April, again allegedly being in danger, these Serb families started moving out. ²⁰¹⁹¹

Q. We have the drift of your answers to both -- your explanation of for both departures. If the explanation for the departure as given by the Serbs was not genuine, what, as you could you calculate or see, was the real reason for these departures?

A. I can claim with certainty that the Serbs had no justifiable reason to move out. The real reason for them leaving could be described in a few sentences. It was designed to achieve several effects. First, additional homogenisation of the Serb people. Second, to show to the Serbs in Serbia, specifically in Ljubovija, that the Serbs in Bratunac in Bosnia and Herzegovina were in jeopardy and that Mother Serbia headed by the accused, Slobodan Milosevic, needed to protect them. And a third and perhaps most important matter, it was a kind of practice so that the Serbian people would be easily placed under the unified command of the Yugoslav People's Army and the SDS so as to occupy Bratunac, as happened on the 17th of April, as easily as possible.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think that's all I'll ask of this witness in re-examination, given the time constraints and the very detailed nature of his answers earlier and indeed to me.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: There are some procedural matters to deal with before the next witness. ²⁰¹⁹²

MR. NICE: And I have some to raise as well, sir.

JUDGE MAY: Let me deal with -- there are some rulings which I want to give. There's one ruling which will require something to go to the interpreters but let me deal with the other matters first. The first is protective measures for the next witness, B-1461. We have a motion of the 5th of May. We are going to grant it in the terms asked.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just ask that the usher inform the witness as I will not have an opportunity before he comes, that the protections he asked for has been afforded by the court.

JUDGE MAY: We must make sure that that message is passed on to him since nobody's here.

The next matter is a purely procedural matter, and it's this: That Judge Kwon is required to be absent on Tribunal business in June, and the Trial Chamber will sit in his absence composed of Judge Robinson and myself. That is between Monday the 16th and Thursday the 19th of June. The two Judges will sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis of the Rules. And the formal order will be made today.

Don't stand for this, please, Mr. Nice. I'm going to read out a ruling which I hope the interpreters now have concerning -- the final ruling it is on the Croatia Rule 92 bis witnesses. It relates to the following: Witness C-1086, 1089, 1162, 1175, 1185, 1215, 1238, 1055, 1136, 1191.

All the witnesses deal with events about which evidence has been given, and they are cumulative in the sense of the ruling of the 7th of ^{20193 BLANK PAGE 20194} April, that is, alleged attacks or killings by the JNA or paramilitary forces. The statements will be admitted under Rule 92 bis. Apart from two witnesses, C-1089 and 1162, all concern or mention the activities and conduct of the JNA about which the accused has raised an issue for the Trial Chamber to determine. Therefore, apart from these two, all the witnesses are required to attend for cross-examination. The statements of C-1089 and 1162 concern arrests and detention by Arkan's men. It has not been disputed that such arrests and detention took place, and no crucial issue turns on the evidence of these two witnesses. Accordingly, their statements will be admitted without cross-examination.

The final matter I want to raise is this: Mr. Nice, it concerns your application for more time. We've had your motion, and we've had a response or observation by the amici. It may be helpful, since we're not sitting next week, to schedule a procedural hearing on it, on the motion, this week.

MR. NICE: A point of three points to which I was coming. We are filing a very short reply to the document of the amici today, I hope by lunch-time. There may be time this week for procedural argument even if we deal with the witnesses who are listed for this week, because one of them is going to be postponed, and I'm coming to that in a second --

JUDGE MAY: I think we should have it this week since we're not sitting the next week so we can consider the matter next week.

MR. NICE: It may be that I won't be able to be here on Friday, or I shouldn't be here on Friday, so Thursday might be a possibility. ²⁰¹⁹⁵

JUDGE MAY: Thursday, Mr. Kay?

MR. KAY: No problems.

JUDGE MAY: Let us schedule it for Thursday. Find a convenient -- maybe the last session or something of the sort.

MR. NICE: The two other matters are these: The propaganda expert, Mr. de la Brosse, is listed for this week. He has come with a number of documents that will require translation for the French and for that reason and indeed for possibly some others, I think it is desirable that he should be put back until probably the beginning of the week following the break. So that the list of witnesses will be as is but without Mr. de la Brosse, and that indeed will probably free up enough time for hearing on Thursday.

JUDGE MAY: So we can remove Mr. de la Brosse from the list. I see we've got three fairly substantial witnesses anyway before we were due to reach him.

MR. NICE: Yes. Although of course, we're going to apply or seek to apply the provisions of 92 bis to abbreviate the evidence in chief of at least I think two of them, or certainly of one. But that's the position, yes, please.

And the last and separate procedural matter is this: The Chamber will recall the 54 bis application, at the end of which a decision was made with a two-month time limit on it. That two calendar month time limit expires on Saturday. We are currently assessing what quantity of materials, if any, have been provided in that two-month period, and I -- on the basis of the quantity of materials supplied, we will certainly need ²⁰¹⁹⁶ a further hearing.

I understand that documents are being prepared by the other party to that application now, and I'm not sure, because I simply don't know, whether that is simply a report or whether it's a report with documentation being provided right at the end of the two-month period, which would be less helpful and less appropriate than to have provided it as soon as it became available.

But one way or another, we would like to arrange for a very early return date to that application because of the pressures of time and the absolute need we now have to secure documentation of the kind listed in the original application, and would ask the Chamber to consider having a hearing in the beginning of the week after the break, if that's possible. We hope to file a report ourselves, whether with or without sight of whatever the respondents to that application are preparing this week.

JUDGE MAY: Obviously we'll consider that when the matter is reported to us. If you could give as full a report as possible.

MR. NICE: If we get our document in before the weekend, even if the respondents exercise their right to put things right up to the deadline, Friday afternoon or whatever it may be - or next Monday, I suppose - we hope that our document will assist in the need for an early return date.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. NICE: Mr. Groome will take the next witness.

JUDGE MAY: Call the next witness. The legal officer, please.

[Trial Chamber and legal officer confer] ²⁰¹⁹⁷

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1461

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as a preliminary matter, Witness B-1461 will give his entire testimony in open session. He will be referring to sexual crimes against a number of victims. I will not elicit those names during my examination of him, but should they become relevant or should anyone seek to ask the identity, I would ask that the identities of those victims be taken in closed session.

Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. B-1461, I would ask you to take a look at this piece of paper. And if it could please be assigned an exhibit number, the pseudonym sheet.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 437 under seal.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the name printed on the top of that sheet. Is that your name?

A. That's right, yes.

Q. For the purposes of protecting your identity, I will refer to you as B-1461 during the course of my questions to you. ²⁰¹⁹⁸ Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony today by telling us from where -- where were you born and where did you grow up?

A. I was born in the Zvornik municipality, and the place is called Divic, where I went to school and worked and lived until the beginning of the war.

Q. Can you give us some idea regarding the size of the village of Divic.

A. The village had a population of -- that is to say about 300 houses and approximately two and a half thousand inhabitants. It's a small place.

Q. What is your ethnicity?

A. I'm a Muslim.

Q. And would you -- was there a predominant ethnic group that lived in the village of Divic?

A. The majority were Muslims. One Serbian family, and five from mixed marriages with Muslims, that were ethnic Serbs married to Muslims.

Q. I want to ask you some questions about the geography of Zvornik. Would I be correct in saying that the town of Zvornik itself lies on the western bank of the Drina River?

A. Yes.

Q. And is the town of Zvornik and in fact all of Zvornik municipality in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with the town of Mali Zvornik?

A. Yes. ²⁰¹⁹⁹

Q. Can you describe to the Chamber where Mali Zvornik is with respect to Zvornik itself.

A. Mali Zvornik is located in the Republic of Serbia, right up on the border with Bosnia-Herzegovina, across the Drina River.

Q. And would it be fair to say that Mali Zvornik lies directly across -- Mali Zvornik in Serbia lies directly across from Zvornik in Bosnia?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there ways to cross the Drina between Zvornik and Mali Zvornik?

A. Yes; across the bridges.

Q. And how many bridges connect those two different municipalities?

A. In the municipality of Zvornik, three bridges.

Q. And in 19 -- the winter and spring of 1992, were there border controls on those bridges?

A. Yes, prior to the beginning of the war.

Q. Now, could I ask you to describe, where is Divic with respect to the town of Zvornik?

A. Divic is 2.5 kilometres from the town of Zvornik, in the direction of Sarajevo, on the Sarajevo road.

Q. And how far away is the village of Divic from the River Drina itself?

A. Well, it lies on the Drina River, on the banks.

Q. Can somebody in the village of Divic look across the Drina and into Serbia?

A. Yes, with boats. ²⁰²⁰⁰

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, do you think we can get the year of his birth --

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: -- in open session.

MR. GROOME: Yes.

Q. Sir, could you please tell us the year of your birth.

A. My date of birth. Do you want the year or the --

Q. Simply the year.

A. -- day or -- 1967.

Q. Now, I think there was some misunderstanding or mistranslation of my last question. My question to you was, can you see across, not necessarily cross the river, but can you see across into Serbia from the village of Divic?

A. Yes, you can see it, yes.

Q. I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992, more specifically March of 1992. Did you notice anything unusual occurring in Serbia across from your village of Divic?

A. Yes, I did notice something. I noticed artillery weapons that had been positioned on the opposite side of the river.

Q. Can you give us some idea about the quantity and size of these weapons that you could see.

A. There were anti-aircraft armoured vehicles and somewhat fewer tanks. That was to begin with. Later on, there were others too.

Q. And approximately how many tanks did you see in March of 1992?

A. About ten. ²⁰²⁰¹

Q. And were the artillery and tanks, were they directed in any particular direction?

A. All the barrels were directed towards the Bosnian side.

Q. Now, prior to you seeing this build-up or this placement of artillery and tanks in Serbia, did -- was there any violence that you were aware of in your village or in the surrounding area to your village?

A. No, there wasn't.

Q. Did the people of Divic do anything in response to seeing these weapons across the river?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was there a rally in early April 1992 in the village of Divic?

A. The rally was held in the town of Zvornik.

Q. And did you attend that rally?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was the purpose of that rally?

A. The purpose of the rally was for people to continue their normal lives, living the way they had before and to avoid a war or anything like that.

Q. After that rally, did the people of Divic form a Crisis Staff and begin to make some preparations for the defence of their village?

A. When they noticed the barricades and when they felt that a war would take place, they began to organise themselves and set up a Crisis Staff in the village of Divic.

Q. Can you describe what if any weapons this Crisis Staff or the people who had prepared to defend themselves in Divic had. ²⁰²⁰²

A. In the Crisis Staff, there was about 18 to 20 rifles. Some were privately owned, some were obtained from the local community or municipality, or I don't know how it came about.

Q. Are you familiar with the location named Kula Grad in the municipality of Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you assist the Chamber by describing where Kula Grad is with respect to the town of Zvornik.

A. Kula Grad is situated on an elevation above the town of Zvornik.

Q. And is Kula Grad in Serbia or in Bosnia?

A. In Bosnia.

Q. Did there come a time when you saw Kula Grad being shelled?

A. Yes.

Q. What is your best recollection of the time period during which Kula Grad was shelled?

A. The tanks fired shells on Kula Grad from the Serb side around the hydroelectric power plant.

Q. And can you assist the Chamber in giving the date or the dates to the best of your recollection when this occurred?

A. It occurred in April, after the fall of Zvornik.

Q. And did you yourself see the shells coming from Serbia and hitting Kula Grad?

A. Yes.

Q. Around this same period did you see something in the Drina that indicated to you that there were -- there was violence elsewhere in ²⁰²⁰³ Zvornik?

A. Yes. We noticed some corpses flowing down the Drina River. There were some dead people and some livestock, things like that.

Q. Can you approximate the number of corpses that you yourself observed floating down the Drina River.

A. I don't know the exact number, but I think that we reported them, and several of them turned up to take the people away. I don't know the exact number.

Q. Are you familiar with the name Marko Pavlovic?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know this person?

A. I didn't know him before, but he used to come to Divic, to the Crisis Staff for negotiations, and he asked that the weapons be handed over. The first time he came was with a man who had an agreement with someone from Serbia to go and buy some cigarettes, and the Serb army arrested him, brought him in, and he came with Marko Pavlovic. And from the Crisis Staff, I learnt his name, that his name was in fact Marko Pavlovic.

Q. How many times did you see this person Marko Pavlovic in the village of Divic?

A. Twice.

Q. And can you approximate the times or the dates when you saw Marko Pavlovic?

A. The last time was on the 22nd of May -- the 22nd of April, the 18th of April, that kind of thing. ^{20204 BLANK PAGE 20205}

Q. You've testified that he asked that weapons be handed over. Did the people of Divic hand over weapons to Marko Pavlovic?

A. No. First of all, they asked him to give us some sort of guarantee, and he said that he could sign the guarantee but it was a worthless piece of paper as far as we were concerned.

Q. What happened in response to the refusal of the people of Divic to turn over their weapons to Marko Pavlovic?

A. How do you mean?

Q. What happened after this refusal? Did anything happen after the people of Divic refused to hand over their weapons?

A. Nothing special.

Q. Did there come a time when the village of Divic came under attack?

A. Yes.

Q. When, to the best of your recollection, did that occur?

A. That was sometime around the 26th of April, after the fall of Kula Grad.

Q. Can I ask you, what -- how did the attack begin? What was the first thing that you recall happening?

A. That morning when the attack on Divic started, they asked from across the River Drina, that is on the Serbian side, they asked the inhabitants of Divic to surrender their weapons. They said they didn't have any more confidence in Kula Grad, and we were left on our own.

Q. And what happened?

A. And after that, the first attack followed from the Serb side, started from the Serb side. ²⁰²⁰⁶

Q. Can you please describe specifically what occurred during the course of that attack.

A. The beginning of the attack was at around 10.00, roughly, and it went on for two hours. After that, there was a pause, a lull, and then the attack continued for about an hour.

JUDGE MAY: The witness will have to clarify what he means by that.

MR. GROOME:

Q. When you use the word "attack," can you please be specific about people involved, types of equipment involved. What exactly did you mean when you used the word "attack"? What are your specific observations?

A. Well, I think the attack or, rather, the attack was launched from the Serbian side with all possible means available, and this refers to artillery, and the attack was on our place, Divic.

Q. When you say "artillery," did shells hit the town or village of Divic?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you able to see from where they were fired?

A. I didn't see all of it, but I did see the beginning.

MR. GROOME: Is that a convenient place to pause, Your Honour?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now. Witness B-1461, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. During the adjournment and any others which there may be while you're giving evidence, don't speak to anybody about it until it's over, and don't let anybody speak to you about it, and that does include the members of the ²⁰²⁰⁷ Prosecution team. So don't speak to anybody about your evidence while you're giving it. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes. We will adjourn.

--- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. B-1461, we finished just before the break with you describing your observations about what was occurring on the Serbian side of the river. Could you please describe what your observations were with respect to the attack occurring in the village itself.

A. Well, as I've already said, this attack was carried out by this equipment of theirs or, rather, their artillery which was on the other side of the Drina, rather in Serbia. There were snipers and light weapons, and then I noticed later a personnel carrier which was moving along the other side of the Drina River, that is to say in Serbia, and which was coming close to our town.

Q. Did there come a time when armed people actually entered the village of Divic itself?

A. Not on that day, but they came the following morning.

Q. And can you describe approximately how many armed people entered the village the following morning.

A. I don't know exactly, but I think there was one unit that came and that expelled people from their homes and ordered them to go towards the hotel which was towards the end of our town. ²⁰²⁰⁸

Q. And what is the name of that hotel?

A. Vidikovac Hotel.

Q. The armed people that you saw in your village, could you describe what they were wearing.

A. They were in camouflage uniforms. I don't remember the insignia they had. I think it was the so-called tricolour flag. I don't know whether it's the flag of Serbia, I can't say exactly. And they all carried automatic weapons.

Q. Did you recognise any -- well, let me ask you this first: The people -- the armed people that came into the town, were their faces covered or obstructed in any way?

A. No, they weren't.

Q. Did you recognise any of these people as being from the area of Zvornik?

A. No, I didn't recognise them.

Q. Did there come a time later that day when the men from the town or village of Divic were assembled in front of the mosque?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And upon whose instruction were they ordered to assemble there?

A. The army, the unit that came into the village.

Q. And approximately how many men were assembled in front of the mosque?

A. Approximately 100 men.

Q. Were you among that group of 100?

A. Yes. ²⁰²⁰⁹

Q. What happened in front of the mosque at that time?

A. They asked for weapons to be handed over. I don't know how many weapons they were actually looking for. And if we could not give the weapons to them, then they -- then people were supposed to hand these weapons over secretly, if I can put it that way, at a particular place they said near the stadium.

Q. And were weapons handed over?

A. Yes.

Q. And did they conduct a search of houses for additional weapons?

A. Yes, while we were in front of the mosque, other soldiers were searching houses, looking for things in houses.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the next day. Could you please describe what occurred on that day.

A. The next day the army was replaced by the police and - how should I put this? - they were on duty there after the military. They imposed a curfew. It was from 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening until 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning. Then we could go to the town of Zvornik with our personal IDs, and then in town we got past passes which made it possible for us to move about town. After awhile, we managed to get passes that were valid in the Republic of Serbia, namely in Mali Zvornik.

Q. And who was issuing these passes?

A. These passes were first issued at the Drina Hotel in Zvornik, and after that, at the SUP in Zvornik.

Q. And when they were issued at the Drina Hotel, who was the person or what function did that person serve who issued these passes? ²⁰²¹⁰

A. The person wore civilian clothes, and I don't know what position this person held.

Q. With the pass -- were you yourself issued with a pass?

A. Yes.

Q. The pass that you were issued with, would it have allowed you to have travelled outside the municipality of either Zvornik or Mali Zvornik? Could you have gone further than those two municipalities?

A. I don't know exactly, and I didn't try to go further either.

Q. The Serbian police that you describe, were they members of the local police force?

A. I think they were.

Q. Did there come a time when the police no longer appeared to be in charge but they appeared to have been replaced by the army once again?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you give us some idea about when that occurred?

A. Around the 22nd of May. The police was replaced by the military. I don't know the military people who came in, but they started creating problems in Divic.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be asked to speak up.

MR. GROOME:

Q. The interpreters are asking you to speak a little more loudly. Could I ask you to describe in a little more detail what you mean when you refer to the creation of problems.

A. Well, for example, they stopped women in the street and they took ²⁰²¹¹ away their jewellery. They drove away the cars we had. They went to people's houses looking for money. They searched houses. They took away everything they could take away.

Q. Now, from the period of time when the men were gathered in front of the mosque and surrendered weapons until this time now in -- towards the end of May, was there any armed resistance from the people of Divic?

A. No.

Q. Did there come a time during this period when a number of buses came into the town?

A. When this military came in after the police, they said to us that we were not safe in that place and that they should move us out. They told us that we had two hours. In the meantime, buses arrived, about 11 of them, and they said that they would transfer us to Olovo, to the town of Olovo.

Q. And where is Olovo located with respect to Zvornik?

A. On the road to Sarajevo. It's closer to Sarajevo.

Q. And approximately how many people from Divic were placed on these buses to be taken to Olovo?

A. About 500 persons.

Q. And did that include people of all -- of both sexes and of all ages?

A. Yes; men, women, children of all ages.

Q. Of these 500, were they all Muslim?

A. Yes.

Q. Was the bus able to reach Olovo? ²⁰²¹²

A. Never.

Q. And did the bus have to turn around and return to Zvornik?

A. At Han Pijesak, we were stopped. We waited for about two hours, and we were told that we simply could not go on, that there was some kind of fighting going on there or whatever. Then they returned us to Zvornik, and we were stopped yet again between Milici and Vlasenica where we spent the night.

The second day, we arrived in Zvornik and we waited for about an hour or two in front of the SUP building. Then they took us in the direction of Tuzla. We came to an elevation or, rather, a place we called Crni Vrh. That is where we were stopped yet again. We waited for about an hour and then we were returned to Zvornik, to the Zvornik bus station.

Q. What time or when did you return to Zvornik after the second attempt to leave?

A. Around midday, approximately.

Q. And what happened upon your return to Zvornik for the second time?

A. Upon our arrival in front of the bus station, the military men who were there ordered us to get off the bus, all the men, that is, then they separated us, that is to say those who were older than 60 and younger than 18, the way they saw it. Then they returned others to the bus, and those who were not taken by bus were taken to the sports stadium in Zvornik.

Q. The men that were separated from the rest of the group, can you tell us approximately how many men were in that group?

A. One hundred seventy-four.

Q. Now, were you taken to a building, a specific building near the ²⁰²¹³ sports stadium?

A. Not far away from the stadium. Right by the Zvornik municipality. This is the administration building of a company called Novi Izvor.

Q. And were all of the group of 174 men placed into that building?

A. Yes. We were put into a room that was too small to take so many people.

Q. Did there come a time when you were addressed by the Serb mayor of Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. What is his name?

A. Brano Grujic.

Q. And what did he say to yourself and the other men in that room?

A. He said that the names of the people who were there should be recorded, that we would get something to do, that we would go out to do something, and that we should sign some kind of paper recognising the government that came in or, rather, some kind of loyalty certificate.

Q. Did you sign such a certificate?

A. No.

Q. Did other men in the building or in the room sign that certificate?

A. I think that no one signed it. They didn't even ask for it later.

Q. Did there come a time when 11 men were removed from that room and you never saw those 11 men again?

A. Yes. After awhile, after we had stayed there for about a few hours, two soldiers came who explained they were looking for ten ²⁰²¹⁴ homeowners who were supposed to accompany them on the search of their houses, and then another ten, and that this would go on until they had checked all the houses.

Q. Were you ever taken from that room to search your house?

A. No.

Q. How long did you remain in that room before you were taken from it?

A. We spent two nights there, and we were there for about two and a half days.

Q. You've described the room as being too small for the number of people in it. Can I ask you in a sentence or two to give the Chamber some idea about the conditions inside that room.

A. There was enough room for all of us to stand up. All of us could not sit or lie down or any such thing.

Q. Were you fed while you were there?

A. Yes, we were.

Q. How would you characterise the amount of food that you were given?

A. Very, very little. I think there was some kind of spread to put on bread, and I think that there was marmalade jam, whatever, there was something sweet. Afterwards, a soldier said to us that we would get a bit more food, after awhile that is.

Q. When you were taken from this room, where were you brought?

A. They told us to get out of that room and to board the buses that were in front over there in Zvornik, and then they transferred us to Celopek or, rather, the cultural centre at Celopek. ^{20215 BLANK PAGE 20216}

Q. Now, Celopek is the name of another village or another area in the Zvornik municipality; is that not correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And the cultural centre, would you please describe the type -- what would be the ordinary purpose that a building called the cultural centre would be used for in this area?

A. The bus station was where the cultural centre was. It was the local bus station. There was also a store, and there was a restaurant. There was a building behind this store, and that's where the cultural centre was. There was a stage in the building, and behind this building was a small room that was used as a toilet. And next to that building was yet another restaurant, or a smallish room that was used as a restaurant.

Q. How many buses were used to move you and others up to the Celopek Dom Kulture centre?

A. Two or three buses.

Q. And were -- were there guards, armed guards accompanying the men as they were transported to the cultural centre?

A. Yes.

Q. And how many men altogether, approximate if you need to, were transported from the room up to the Celopek Dom cultural centre?

A. One hundred sixty-two men were transferred.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be tendering a binder of exhibits with four photographs. Could I ask that a number be assigned at this time.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 438. ²⁰²¹⁷

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown - we'll use the Sanction system, if it works today - that his monitor be set accordingly.

Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at the photograph before you. It's Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 1. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. Yes. That's the building where we were detained, the first one. You can see that it's a dilapidated building, the first one. It was used as a toilet. The other one is the cultural centre, and then there's the bus station and the restaurant and the store. The other one on the left-hand side is this smallish restaurant or, rather, this smallish room that was used as a restaurant.

Q. Would it be fair to say that in front of the building furthest away from us in the photograph, that that is the road connecting Celopek and Zvornik?

A. This road that you can see on the side is some kind of a small road, whereas the other one is the main road that goes through Celopek.

Q. That's the road I'm referring to, the main road. Is that the road that is visible at the back of the building, or the front of the building, as it were?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Would you please repeat your answer.

A. Yes, that's the road.

Q. Would I be correct in saying the photographer who took that ²⁰²¹⁸ picture was standing at the back of the building or the complex of buildings?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 2. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. What is depicted is the bus station, the building where the store was, the restaurant, and behind that building was this cultural centre.

Q. And finally, Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 3. Is this one of the buildings that make up part of that complex where you were held?

A. Yes. That building was used as a toilet.

Q. For how long were you detained in the Dom Kulture centre at Celopek?

A. About a month.

Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name of Dusan Repic?

A. Before the war, I did not know this person, but during my stay in Batkovic, I found out that this person who came to the cultural centre in Celopek was called Dusan Repic.

Q. I'm going to ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 438, tab 4, on the screen in front of you. Do you recognise the person depicted in those photographs?

A. Yes. That's the person named Repic.

Q. I'm going to ask you now to describe some of the events that occurred while you were kept in captivity in Celopek, and let me begin by asking you to describe generally the living conditions under which you and the other men were kept during your period of incarceration there. ²⁰²¹⁹

A. The conditions were more than bad. The first day we came we had some kind of thin mattresses. We did not have enough water. We did not have enough food. At the beginning we could go out to the toilet and we could sit in front of the building, but then they forbade that too. The first few days we didn't get food at all and then we asked the guards who were there -- we gave them money and we asked them to buy something for us to eat. They brought us very little food, and they never brought us any change. This room had about 10 windows that were closed, it had two doors. One door was always locked, and the other one that we used was locked with a chain.

Q. During the times that these doors were not locked, were there armed guards at the facility?

A. The guards were in front of the building. They were armed.

Q. Would it be fair to say that the building of the Dom Kulture centre was on a road, a busy road upon which traffic frequently travelled?

A. Well, that's the way it was, more or less.

Q. Did there come a time when the people that were detained in Celopek were forced to give up all of their identification papers and any other personal documents that they may have had?

A. Yes. At first some of the soldiers, I don't know exactly which ones, asked for us to hand over our belts and shoelaces. Then a group came asking us for -- to hand over all our documents and everything we had; money, jewellery, all the documents we had.

Q. The men that asked you to hand over the documents and everything that you had, did you recognise them as being from the Zvornik ²⁰²²⁰ municipality?

A. I did not recognise them. I don't know where they came from.

Q. Were you able to identify their accents?

A. Their accents were Serbian, coming from Serbia.

Q. Did there come a time when fathers and sons were made to line up and to record their names, identifying them as father and son?

A. Yes. That's what they were required to do.

Q. And who initiated this? Who -- who were the people that made these fathers and sons identify themselves as such?

A. The person called Repic, with his group.

Q. Was your father detained with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was your uncle detained with you?

A. Yes.

Q. During this period, did members of Repic's group interrogate some of the men that were being detained in the centre?

A. There was another group there that came several times. Sometimes they came together. I don't know whether it was exactly that group or Repic's group, but people were interrogated, and they were asking for weapons too. That's what they asked for more, for weapons, that is.

Q. And during the course of these interrogations, were some of the people being interrogated killed?

A. The people who were taken out, I don't know exactly. Shots could be heard. I don't know whether they were killed. They took out two men, we heard two shots. After that, they took out a man to see what was ²⁰²²¹ happening, and he told us that those men had been killed. Then he said that if we didn't surrender our weapons, the same fate would befall us.

Q. This other group that you referred to, did you learn where they came from?

A. We later learnt that these men came from Loznica.

Q. And Loznica is located in what country, what republic?

A. In the Republic of Serbia.

Q. Did there come a time when men in the building were subjected to brutal treatment?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd asked you to please describe --

A. Not once.

Q. I'd ask you to please describe what types of treatment you observed while you were detained in that room.

A. I saw them asking for fathers and sons to get on the stage, to take off their clothes, to strip, and to engage in oral sex using their mouths and genitals. At first it had to be fathers with sons, and after that, sons with fathers.

The people who applied, some were fathers and sons, others were not. At first it appeared that the group was too small. Then they asked or, rather, separated people at random, at will, sending them to the stage and to join the others.

Q. Approximately how many pairs of fathers and sons were forced to engage in this type of activity?

A. Two or three pairs of fathers and sons, but the total was about ²⁰²²² eight to ten couples.

Q. And what were the other men in the building required to do while this was taking place?

A. The other men were ordered to sit facing the stage, and they all had to watch what was going on on the stage.

Q. What happened if one of the other men in the room did not look at what was going on?

A. They required that they watch and follow the happenings on the stage.

Q. Can you approximate for us, as best you can recall, when this occurred, during what period of your detention?

A. This was roughly between the 10th and the 11th of June. That was when we celebrate our religious holiday Bajram.

Q. Did there come a time when some of the men were forced to perform even more violent acts against each other?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you explain.

A. They demanded that certain couples, certain men, bite off the genitals of others. They asked men to show those penises. They actually forced a man to show the penis he had bitten off and to swallow it. One man refused to, but the other one did actually do it. And then they asked one person to -- to push the broom -- the handle of a broom into the behind of another man.

Q. In addition to these acts, were -- were men also mutilated with knives? ²⁰²²³

JUDGE MAY: Before we get there, we should identify who it was who gave these orders. It's described as "they," but we should learn more detail who was responsible.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I would ask you to answer Judge May's question. When you used the word "they," could you please describe who specifically are you referring to.

A. The group of the person known as Repic.

Q. And was Repic himself personally present when these acts that you've described occurred?

A. Yes, he was present, and he took out those men and he demanded that sons and fathers come out. He selected them. And all those happenings, he was the one who gave the orders for them.

Q. Did there come a time when members of this group used knives to mark the bodies of some of the men?

A. Yes.

Q. Please describe.

A. On the stage, I don't think it was on that day, but on that day, they killed men who were there. After that, the men on the stage had their -- the meat between their fingers cut. They would stab the men's thighs, and they would stab people's hands.

Q. You yourself, were you subjected to any of this treatment?

A. Yes. They stabbed through one hand. The other one, the knife didn't go right through.

Q. And do you know the identity of the person who -- or the name of ²⁰²²⁴ the person who stabbed you in your hands?

A. I don't know his proper name but he was a large man, rather heavy but not tall.

Q. Was he a member of the Repic's group?

A. I don't know exactly because they never all came together. Sometimes there would be two groups together, sometimes three, sometimes only one, but they were not always the same group of people.

Q. In addition to the treatment that you've described for us, were there also times when random shots were fired into the group?

A. Yes. On that day, when they demanded that sons and fathers come out to do what they did, Repic was armed with a small calibre rifle, and he shot at people, who did not survive, that is, the people Repic hit.

Q. During your entire stay at Celopek, on approximately how many occasions did this type of treatment of the people detained there occur?

A. You mean killings or --

Q. The sexual abuse and the killings. On approximately how many different occasions?

A. The sexual abuse happened on that one day, and the killings happened on two days or, rather, several men were killed on two occasions.

Q. Were members of the group also made to have fistfights with each other?

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. Was your father one of the people that was ordered to -- to have a fistfight?

A. Yes. He was also ordered to come out, and he had his pair who was ²⁰²²⁵ his next door neighbour, and before they were ordered to do this, they said that they would beat them if they refused to fight one another. And as they simply couldn't hit each other, then they beat them. So then this neighbour was in a coma for two days. After that, he passed away, whereas my father was badly beaten up. He was black and blue all over from these blows he had received, and he can't even remember everything that happened to him.

Q. What ultimately happened to your uncle who you said was detained in that building?

A. That first occasion, my two uncles did not survive. On Bajram, that is the night between the 10th and the 11th, the two uncles did not survive. One was dead and the other one -- his heart was still beating, but he passed away. He was hit in the forehead.

Q. And what ultimately happened to your father?

A. He was killed too or, rather, he died in Celopek.

Q. Can you describe the circumstances surrounding his death.

A. On that day when my father lost his life -- this happened around the 26th of June. I think it was the Serbian holiday, St. Vitus Day. I don't know exactly. It happened in the afternoon, around 1600 hours. We received the food, our rations, which we didn't manage to eat when Repic arrived with an automatic rifle in his hand. He, as usual, demanded that we talk about people he was looking for from Kula Grad to Zvornik. He fired a burst not far from me. Three men fell from the shots. Two got up wounded, not seriously. And this one who couldn't get up, he remained on the ground. He came up to him and shot him with a pistol. ^{20226 BLANK PAGE 20227} After that, he went on demanding that we talk about these people, and then he opened fire at random at the people, and he started killing them. Then there was one burst of fire, then another one. And on that occasion, he killed some 20 men and wounded about 22 others. After that, when he ordered that everything be cleaned up, I found my father lying there, and I saw that he was no longer alive.

Q. During the course of your detention at Celopek, did a Serb friend of yours come to the centre and have a brief conversation with you?

A. Yes. He was my school fellow. His name was Goran.

Q. Can I ask you to summarise what it was he said to you.

A. He called me out and he asked me whether we needed anything, and I told him we needed water because we were short of it as we would get about two canisters of water a day. Then I asked him to protect at least my father, if he couldn't protect me, as I was younger. And then he told me that he thought that what had happened would not be repeated and that the SUP of Zvornik had intervened and that the key would be handed in to the SUP of Zvornik and that from then on people would not be able to enter the building as they had been doing up until then.

Q. Did there come a time when you were taken from Celopek and brought somewhere else?

A. Yes. That second time when some 20 men were killed, maybe the following day or two days later the rest of the men who were there, together with those who were wounded, were transferred to the old prison in Zvornik, and we spent about 15 days there.

Q. And did there come a time when you were transferred from that ²⁰²²⁸ prison to another location?

A. After spending time in the old prison in Zvornik, we were transferred to Batkovic.

Q. And was that another prison camp?

A. Yes. It was a larger camp than the one in Celopek.

Q. And approximately when were you transferred to Batkovic?

A. Around about the middle of July 1992.

Q. And approximately how long were you detained there?

A. About a year.

Q. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber the conditions at Batkovic camp.

A. It was a building, quite a large building, which was used to store seeds for agricultural purposes. The windows were closed, and they were closed up with steel blinds. We slept on straw covered with a blanket, and we had nothing to cover ourselves with. The compound had a wire fence. We had a couple of water taps and one open toilet.

Q. And the people that were detained there, can you provide us with some details about that, the approximate people that you were aware were detained there as well as the range of ages and whether both men and women were detained at Batkovic.

A. The age of the people, most of them were able-bodied. There were two women at first - I think one was there with her husband - and then they were taken somewhere. I don't know exactly where.

Q. And were you present when members of the Red Cross, International Committee of the Red Cross visited Batkovic camp? ²⁰²²⁹

A. Yes, I was present.

Q. And can you describe what, if anything, occurred prior to visits by the Red Cross.

A. Before they arrived, their arrival would be announced. It was announced a couple of times but they didn't come. But each time, before they were due to arrive, old people over 60 and youngsters under 18 were hidden, and a group that they called "special cases" were also taken away somewhere. Where, I don't know exactly, but they weren't present when the Red Cross came.

Q. Would they be returned after the Red Cross left?

A. Yes, they would be returned to the compound when the Red Cross left.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask at this time that a copy of Prosecution Exhibit 336, pages 28 and 29, be placed on the overhead projector.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take the pointer at your right hand. Do you recognise what is depicted on this map, this copy of Prosecution Exhibit 336?

A. It is a map of a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is not complete. And I recognise my signature.

Q. I ask the director to zoom in on the right hand portion on that page. You will see some red circles.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Handwriting" not "signature."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right. ²⁰²³⁰

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, the circles on the page, did you make those red circles?

A. Yes, I did?

MR. GROOME: Can I ask the director just to zoom out a little bit so we can see all of the circles. And that is good. Maybe we can adjust the page.

Q. Are these the locations that you have testified about here today?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you to start at the top and please just point to the different locations and just call out the name of each individual location.

A. This place here is the place where I was born, Divic. This place here is the place where I was detained for a month and where the killings and sexual abuse took place. After that, we were taken to Batkovic, which is here, not far from Bijeljina.

Q. And could I ask you -- you haven't circled it, but could you just point to where the town of Zvornik is located.

A. Here it is.

Q. And you've referred to Mali Zvornik. Could you please indicate that.

A. Here.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit.

Q. Sir, I want to return to Celopek for a minute. Could I ask you to summarise for us how many men were killed that you saw? Could you ²⁰²³¹ summarise for us with an approximate number how many men were killed at Celopek during your detention there.

A. Approximately some 30 men. All those killings took place in the room in which we were detained. As for the people that were taken out, I don't know whether they were killed. I saw some of them, three or four of them. As for the others, I never saw them again nor have I heard of them since.

Q. And how many men who were detained there are you aware of were subjected to sexual abuse of the type you've described?

A. Some 30 men.

Q. Now, after your release from custody, did you come to learn some years later that Mr. Repic was the subject of a prosecution in the Republic of Serbia?

A. Yes. I read that in a newspaper. I don't know exactly which one.

Q. And was the subject of that prosecution in part the crimes that you've described for us as having occurred in Celopek?

A. Yes, that was the subject of that prosecution, and I think that I read that he confessed that he had killed eight men. How the trial ended, I don't know.

Q. And that prosecution was conducted in the Republic of Serbia?

A. Yes. Somewhere near Sabac, I think. In that area.

Q. Are you aware of the outcome of that case?

A. No.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, is it a Defence Exhibit 56 which deals ²⁰²³² with this? If you could check it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, I'll check.

JUDGE KWON: Defence Exhibit 56.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just have a look at the number of this witness, because the witness was not protected to begin with up until today. 1164; is that it?

JUDGE MAY: 1461.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1461. Right. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1461, let's clear something up first, this key issue with respect to the crimes that took place and that you described as having taken place in Celopek.

Do you know the name of the man whose nickname was Repic?

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Pigtail" in translation.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I learnt about that name while I was detained in Batkovic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And what was his name?

A. Dusan Vuckovic.

Q. Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, right. That agrees with the information I have. Do you know that this particular man was at the head of a group of criminals, criminals who perpetrated a number of crimes in the area that you're referring to?

A. No, I don't know about that. ²⁰²³³

Q. And do you know that it was precisely the authorities in Serbia who got news of their criminal behaviour, this kind of criminal behaviour that they engaged in?

A. All I know was that legal proceedings were brought against that individual.

Q. Yes. That is the consequence of the fact that I've just mentioned. Do you know that this man Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic or pigtail, and as we saw his photograph, I assume he was called Repic because he wore this pigtail, that he was a citizen of Serbia?

A. Yes. I learnt about that in Batkovic.

Q. All right. It doesn't matter where you learnt of it. I'm just asking whether you know about it.

And do you know that it was on the basis of the facts that they were citizens of Serbia, in fact, for which the authorities in Serbia learnt they had committed some crimes on the territory of Bosnia, that these people were in fact arrested? They were taken into custody by the authorities of Serbia.

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. Well, do you know that these people were taken to trial at the District Court in Sabac for war crimes, in fact?

A. I read about this for Repic in the papers.

Q. You read it in the papers. Right. Now, do you know that they were tried as far as back as 1993 on the basis of the facts that, following the Criminal Code of our country, war crimes are the gravest crimes, considered to be the gravest crimes and that according to the ²⁰²³⁴ information that the authorities had, this man and his collaborators had perpetrated those crimes, so he was arrested and he was tried precisely for war crimes.

A. Well, I don't know why he was arrested, but it said in the papers that yes, he was accused for having perpetrated the crimes in Celopek.

Q. All right. So you read about this in the papers, but we can find the documents. I don't want to enter into that now. But you presented some of the atrocities that you saw happen and experienced yourself. So I'm not going to ask you about that because I think Mr. Groome asked you about that at great length.

I just want to ask you whether you are aware of the fact that when the authorities in Serbia learnt about these crimes, arrested those people and took them to trial and tried them for war crimes.

JUDGE MAY: Well -- Mr. Milosevic --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And we have documents --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Don't interrupt. We have the papers. We will have them recorded. It's thought they're D56. During the adjournment, it may be that we can actually track that down. So there's no point asking the witness about them. It's simply something he read, whereas we have the papers.

Yes. Now, let's move on, if you want to, to another topic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, precisely because I know that the opposite side is well aware of the fact that these people were arrested by the authorities of Serbia and taken to trial and tried for war ²⁰²³⁵ crimes, I don't then understand why this witness has been brought here to testify against me, because the authorities in Serbia prosecuted the war crimes that he has just described. But let's go back to the beginning --

JUDGE MAY: Have you any questions -- look, we'll hear your speeches in due course. We're not here for that now. Now, as you've said, this witness has come here and given very difficult evidence. So I suggest you deal with his cross-examination as expeditiously as you can. I take it there is no dispute about his evidence about what happened in Celopek.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as to what happened in Celopek, the authorities of Serbia, on the basis of the knowledge they had, arrested these people and the courts tried them. So I don't want to go back to that topic. What I want to do is to go back to the beginning of the testimony of Mr. B-1461 related to the issues he talked about and the circumstances he described with respect to the attacks on the village of Divic and all the rest of it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1461, was there a political party that acted in an organised fashion in Divic?

A. I'm not a politician. I don't really know whether there was a political party, but as far as I know, I don't think there was.

Q. From this may I take it that you were never a member of a party at all?

A. That's right.

Q. Did you hear about the organisation of the Patriotic League that ²⁰²³⁶ had its representatives in Divic? Just give me a yes or no answer.

A. No.

Q. All right. Fine. At the beginning, in response to a question from Mr. Groome, you said that in Zvornik a rally was held which was devoted to peace, life together, and some positive goals taken by and large, if I can put it that way.

A. Yes.

Q. When was the meeting held?

A. Roughly around the 7th of April.

Q. The 7th of April? That means just one day after the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina's independence; is that right?

A. Well, I don't know when it was recognised exactly.

Q. On the 6th of April. And then the rally was held in Zvornik on the 7th of April for a life together with no ethnic conflicts and so on. Well, in your opinion, would you say that the population of Zvornik had opted to preserve Yugoslavia and a life of communality within Yugoslavia?

A. At the rally, yes, we could see that people were in favour of life together and for peace, a life in common and conditions of peace.

Q. Does that mean then that the people of Zvornik, both Muslims and Serbs alike who had lived there, were opposed to the SDA positions and Alija Izetbegovic who favoured the separation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia, its secession and everything else that happened and led up to the crisis that occurred?

A. Well, I don't know what they were in favour of, but they were in favour of peace, and they said they didn't need any kind of war and that ²⁰²³⁷ quite simply people wanted to live a peaceful life, like they did before.

Q. Well, I do believe that. I believe that people strove to ensure that, because anybody normal would be in favour of peace. You say that the war in Zvornik - and you say this on page 2 of your statement, paragraph 5 - began on the 8th of April. So on the 6th of April Bosnia and Herzegovina was given recognition, on the 7th of April you held a rally in favour of a life together, and the conflict broke out on the 8th of April; is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, then, who created that conflict? Who caused the conflict?

A. I wasn't there, nor do I know who caused it.

Q. All right. Do you know that it was at the multi-party elections that came before all these events the Serbs won the majority in Zvornik, the SDS party in fact, that they had the majority vote?

A. I know nothing about politics, and I was not a politician of any kind, and I think you would have to ask one of the politicians that question.

Q. All right. Fine. I'm asking you because you can't tell me who caused the crisis. Does it seem to you to be logical that the Serbs who had the authority in Zvornik, that it was up to them --

JUDGE MAY: No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- to win over power and authority if they had already had it?

JUDGE MAY: He's given you his answer to this. He's not involved in it, it's pointless to ask him further questions, particularly of that ^{20238 BLANK PAGE 20239} sort. And it may not assist us very much as to who started it. The real point of his evidence concerns partly Divic, of course, but also about what happened when he was in detention and the conditions which existed there.

Yes. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what happened during his detention I myself and the authorities in Serbia personally consider to be a war crime, and those crimes were tried in Serbia ten years ago. So I have nothing to ask him on that score as to the details, because to every normal man -- everybody normal would feel sick and feel sick listening to the details that were put forward. It's enough to turn one's stomach.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, tell me this: The fighting for Zvornik, as you say, went on for two days; is that right?

A. Yes, roughly.

Q. But you weren't there at the time. You were in Divic all the time; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. You say in your statement that the fighting took place between the Serb army and the Muslim inhabitants. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, then. These Muslim inhabitants, did they have weapons?

A. I don't know what they had, but I heard from people -- I heard about it from people who came from Zvornik to Divic.

Q. Now, these Muslim forces, did they fight in an organised fashion? ²⁰²⁴⁰ Who was their commander? Do you have any information about that?

A. I have no information about that nor do I know whether it was organised or unorganised. I don't know.

Q. Well, do you know whether in Zvornik a Muslim Crisis Staff had been set up perhaps?

A. No, in Zvornik I don't know about that.

Q. You don't know about that. And do you know whether those Muslim forces had any form of heavy weaponry?

A. I don't know that either.

Q. In your statement, you say that in the fighting in Zvornik there were no people who were wounded or killed, no casualties.

A. According to what the people who had come from there said, that's what I heard.

Q. So there were no casualties; no persons killed or wounded.

A. I think in my statement I say that I don't know actually whether there were any persons killed or wounded.

Q. Do you know who Dr. Rasim Juzbasic is?

A. No.

Q. He was a deputy in the BH Assembly and he was from Zvornik, that is to say from your parts, but you say you don't know him.

A. No, I don't.

Q. Do you know who Izet Mehinagic is?

A. I worked in the field, I went round to do my job, so I don't really know the people from the municipality that well.

Q. All right. But do you know -- you read the papers, I assume, and ²⁰²⁴¹ listened to the radio. Do you know that these two people at a press conference held in Tuzla - and that took place on the 10th of April, 1992, and it was published by the Sarajevo daily Oslobodjenje -- I assume you read the daily papers, Sarajevo Oslobodjenje - said that they had just come from Zvornik and that the Serb forces had a lot of casualties, wounded and killed, and that the Muslim forces, up until their departure, had about 15 persons injured and one person killed. That's what they said, according to the writings of the Oslobodjenje paper.

A. I don't know about that.

Q. But that does not coincide with what you learnt about and what you testified about; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Then tell me this: If there were armed conflicts indeed and if they went on for two days, does that mean that there were two sides shooting at each other, at one another?

A. Well, I don't know exactly what the conflicts were, whether they were clashes between two parties, two sides, or what. I really can't say.

Q. All right, Mr. 1461. You say that the conflicts between the Serb army and the Muslim citizens in Zvornik, that's how you refer to them. Now, this Serbian army, can we call it the citizens of Zvornik of Serb ethnicity?

A. Well, we could put it that way too. I don't know who those people were actually, the people who came from Zvornik who informed us about that either, of the events in Zvornik. They didn't know who -- ²⁰²⁴²

Q. You didn't know them or they didn't know? Well, in Zvornik, was it not a conflict between the Serbs and Muslims or, rather, wasn't this part of the civil war that had started after the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the beginning of the attack on the army throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Wasn't that it?

A. I don't know why the conflict broke out.

Q. All right. Fine. Can you testify at all about anything linked to these conflicts in Zvornik, because as you yourself say now and in your statement that when all this was going on, all this fighting was going on, you never actually left Divic; is that right?

A. Well, I was there until I left, until they moved us out.

Q. So you saw nothing that actually went on in Zvornik?

A. No.

Q. So everything you're telling us is on the basis of what you heard; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, who brought this information to you from Zvornik? Can you give us a name and surname of the person who told you about all this?

A. I don't know.

Q. Were they some locals who came to inform you, or did somebody else come from Zvornik to inform you about what was going on?

A. I think they were people from Zvornik.

Q. You were asked by Mr. Groome whether you came to the conclusion that something was happening in Zvornik when you saw some corpses flowing down the Drina River. Is that what you said? ²⁰²⁴³

A. He asked me whether I assumed that something was happening somewhere else when I saw corpses flowing down the Drina River.

Q. Yes, but he mentioned Zvornik specifically in his question, and you can check that on the transcript.

JUDGE MAY: We're now going to adjourn, but before we do, Judge Kwon has the exhibit to which we referred earlier.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. It was Defence Exhibit 56 under seal, which seems to be a report of the district public prosecutor's office of Republic of Serbia in Sabac, and it is a request to the District Court investigating judge asking that an investigation is to be conducted against Mr. Vojin Vuckovic and Dusko Vuckovic, also known as Repic. But the report only deals with these killings, torturings, but it does not mention about the sexual abuse. I think that's enough.

JUDGE MAY: Let me return that to the --

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE KWON: We can later get some indictment or formal documents later, can we not?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution is in possession of some of the documents, and whatever the Prosecution is in possession of we will produce to the Court.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Perhaps the legal officer would come up, please.

[Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m. ²⁰²⁴⁴

--- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A document was mentioned a short while ago that had to do with the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators of these crimes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1461, you said you only heard about this from the newspapers. Were you perhaps informed of the fact that the attitude towards paramilitary formations and such groups was generally the attitude of the authorities of the government, that is, of Yugoslavia, of Serbia and Montenegro?

A. I'm not informed about that.

Q. I'm just going to read something out to you, part of the order of the then Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav army, Colonel General Zivota Panic. This is an order dated the 1st of August, 1992. This is roughly the time when this news could have reached the Yugoslav authorities because it coincides with the time you have been referring to. I am reading this out to you to ask you whether you knew anything about that or whether you learned anything about it later, because I see that in the meantime, you had been in a camp. Inter alia, I'm going to skip all the explanations that come before hand and I'm now just going to read the following: "I hereby order to the 2nd Army, and also could the 1st and 3rd Armies please be notified in cooperation with the Ministries of the Interior of Serbia and Montenegro, immediately establish an operative staff for following the situation on the ground and for taking ²⁰²⁴⁵ all measures to stop the activity of individuals, groups, and all other paramilitary formations."

I'm asking the interpreters whether this should be read out again. The English booth said it's not necessary for now. All right. Very well. I continue reading: "According to one's assessments, these staffs should be set up in towns and garrisons that are in the directions facing the border crossings towards Bosnia-Herzegovina and, if necessary, within one's area of responsibility. The units should be made capable of rapid deployment and action for controlling territory on all important intersections and directions that are carried out from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Joint checkpoints should be established and also mobile patrols should be established and should be given concrete assignments. All mobile units of the army of Yugoslavia and of the Ministries of the Interior -" it is Serbia and Montenegro that are being referred to - "should be announced in a timely fashion. Unannounced groups should be stopped, asked to show their IDs, and disarmed. One should bear in mind that these paramilitary units all use the army uniform of Yugoslavia, and they are prone to violent behaviour and crime, which makes it necessary to be cautious and to act efficiently, including the use of firearms."

So that is the order of the Chief of General Staff that has to do with this. So it's not only something that had to do with the prosecutor's office, the authorities, the civilian authorities, but also the military structures, that is to say from the top, from the General Staff further down. ²⁰²⁴⁶ Also --

JUDGE MAY: Now, you're here asking questions. What is the question for the witness?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you have any information about that too --

A. No.

Q. -- Mr. 1461?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I would like to read part of the order of the commander of the 1st Army, and that is relevant to the 1st Army.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: I can't see the point if you're reading out something to a witness who has never heard of the order. He's not a member of your army or anything else. So how he's supposed to answer to it, I don't know.

You can call evidence about this in due course, but there's no point putting it to witnesses who know nothing about it at all. So move on to something else.

JUDGE KWON: And I think the document has been exhibited already. If the Prosecution could tell us the number. The order disbanding the paramilitary formations by Panic.

MR. GROOME: We're looking, Your Honour.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to point out, Mr. May, that in these orders reference is made to the fact that these groups and units should be stopped, asked to show their IDs, and disarmed. So that ²⁰²⁴⁷ is the order. And it should also be borne in mind that paramilitary formations most often use the uniforms of the army of Yugoslavia and that they include persons who are prone to violent and criminal behaviour and --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. This isn't a general debate. This is a witness who is giving evidence about specific events. Now, you can call your evidence -- it may be, as Judge Kwon has pointed out, that this document is already in evidence, so there's no need to go over it again.

Now, have you got any questions specific to this witness, or otherwise we should let him go rather than detain him here longer.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. There are questions for this witness that have to do with the rest of his testimony, but, Mr. May, since these documents were not tendered, would you accept having them tendered now into evidence, because they have to do the same thing from the military point of view and from the police point of view. That is to say the activities of the military and police of Serbia and Montenegro in view of the activities of the paramilitary formations referred to here. And also the way in which these paramilitary formations are being treated.

JUDGE MAY: At the moment, there is no connection with this witness, and they can't be introduced through him. You can introduce them through a witness who knows something about them. But there's no point with this witness. Also, we'll check to see if these documents haven't already been introduced.

Now, let's move on. Let's move on to another topic. We can ^{20248 BLANK PAGE 20249} return to the documents in due course.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these documents have to do with the phenomenon about which this witness is testifying, not the witness himself. This has to do with general documents that deal with the phenomenon that the witness is testifying about. So I believe that this is quite a legitimate request to have these documents introduced into evidence. And of course you can refuse to do that. That is up to you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I see from your statements that the Muslims from Divic established a Crisis Staff. Is that right?

A. Yes. When they felt that something was happening.

Q. All right. Tell me, how many members did this Crisis Staff have?

A. Approximately three or four members.

Q. Were they from the Party of Democratic Action or from the Patriotic League?

A. I don't know if they were in any party.

Q. Were you a member of the Crisis Staff?

A. No.

Q. So you don't know anything about the criteria according to which Crisis Staff members were chosen?

A. No.

Q. All right. As far as I can see from your statement, your Crisis Staff was linked to the Crisis Staffs of other villages and towns; is that right? ²⁰²⁵⁰

A. According to their statements, I think that once or twice they spoke to the Crisis Staff at Kula Grad.

Q. In which way did they contact these other staffs?

A. I don't know.

Q. Your Crisis Staff, did it have anything to do with the collection of weapons?

A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

Q. On the basis of what you say on page 2, paragraph 6, you got some weapons from Zvornik, didn't you?

A. According to their statements, something came either from the local commune or the municipality of Zvornik, I don't know exactly.

Q. You don't know which persons actually brought these weapons to you from Zvornik?

A. No.

Q. Do you know where these weapons came from? Do you know where they originated from?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. How many such weapons were distributed in this way?

A. I don't know about that either.

Q. And do you know how weapons from Zvornik were brought to Divic?

A. I don't know about that either.

Q. And do you know whether weapons were sent to you from Zvornik at their initiative or was it your Crisis Staff that had asked for weapons?

A. I don't know.

Q. And in your Crisis Staff, who was in charge of distributing ²⁰²⁵¹ weapons in Divic?

A. I don't know who was in charge.

Q. Did you get any weapons?

A. No.

Q. In your statement, you say that your Crisis Staff organised patrols; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How many such patrols were there?

A. Approximately perhaps three or four patrols.

Q. How many people made up a single patrol?

A. I think two respectively.

Q. And who was in charge of organising these patrols and these military activities? You mentioned the name of Rasim Zahirovic.

A. Yes. He was on the Crisis Staff.

Q. Was he in charge of these patrols and military activities in Divic?

A. He was the one who communicated with the people and this Crisis Staff.

Q. All right. And who was it from the Crisis Staff or in the organisation of the Crisis Staff that trained these members of these groups that carried weapons? Who trained them to use weapons?

A. I think that there was no training. And who did the training is something I don't know.

Q. Were you ever on any one of these patrols?

A. I was at home all the time. ²⁰²⁵²

Q. At home all the time?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And do you know whether during these patrols some of these people who were on the patrols were in a position to engage in fire?

A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

Q. I see from your statement that in your village there were only eight Serbs who lived there.

A. Yes, approximately.

Q. From a total population of 2.500?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm asking you because Mr. Groome had asked you whether these people who then left were Muslims. So practically your village was a purely Muslim village almost. So they only could have been Muslims. And what was the attitude towards these eight Serbs? Was anybody in charge of watching them or checking on them in any way at that time?

A. I don't think that they had any problems because these are people from mixed marriages who lived together with us.

Q. All right. In your statement you say that as soon as the fighting stopped in Zvornik, the locals in Divic started fleeing from the village; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How many locals from the village of Divic left it?

A. I think that everybody left it, practically everyone.

Q. Everyone?

A. Yes. ²⁰²⁵³

Q. But on page 2, in the last paragraph, you say that after you had evacuated your family you returned to Divic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You did that because, as you say, you wanted to see what was going on.

A. Not to see what was going on. I actually wanted to see what was going on with the house.

Q. Was there some kind of obligation on your part for you to return in view of the positions of this Crisis Staff of Divic?

A. None whatsoever.

Q. So you returned of your own free will. Did anybody else return in addition to you? Because you say that all the locals had left.

A. I think that everybody got out. Perhaps a few people stayed behind, and afterwards, almost everybody returned.

Q. And is it true that those who returned saw that nothing had happened in Divic?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, let's go back to Mr. Groome's question, the one that I've already raised, and then we were interrupted. Something was going on in Zvornik, and you saw that there were corpses in the Drina; is that right?

A. I did see corpses in the Drina.

Q. And this couldn't have had anything to do with Zvornik?

A. I think that these corpses could not travel upstream, they could only move downstream.

Q. That's why I'm asking you, because Divic is upstream from Zvornik, ²⁰²⁵⁴ so it couldn't have had anything to do with Zvornik. So how many corpses did you see?

A. I don't know the exact number, but we reported a few of them.

Q. How many did you see?

A. About 20 or 30. I don't know the exact number.

Q. All right. On the basis of what did you conclude that these were Muslims who had been killed?

A. I did not say that they were Muslims, but I did say that these were dead persons.

Q. So they could have been either Serbs or Muslims or both.

A. I don't know exactly who they were.

Q. On page 3, in paragraph 3 of your statement you say that a certain Ahmet - I think it's Srndic - went to Amajic, a Serb village, to see an acquaintance of his.

A. Yes.

Q. He was supposed to guarantee Srndic's security so that the man could go to Serbia to buy cigarettes. Is that what you stated?

A. That's what he agreed upon with this man from Amajic, that he would help him buy cigarettes.

Q. Please. Could you clarify something for me in this respect: This was happening at a time when, as far as I understood your statement, expected an attack to take place against your village and when you said that they were attacking Kula Grad, this fortification, that the village was under siege, that the villagers were leaving it for fear of their own lives, and this man Ahmed Srndic, through a Serb village, goes to Serbia ²⁰²⁵⁵ to buy cigarettes?

A. Since we were out off from town and we did not have any resources, I don't know how they got in touch, but I imagine that they knew each other from before and this Ahmet worked in Amajic, and I think they simply agreed that they help each other out.

Q. So this must be the most passionate smoker I'd ever heard of. Under all these circumstances, he reaches agreements to go to Serbia to buy cigarettes. His village is under siege and there was shooting, and he goes to Serbia to buy cigarettes.

A. At that time there wasn't any shooting.

Q. You say that Srndic was arrested on the way?

A. That's what he said.

Q. So how was he arrested when he returned to the village the very same afternoon?

A. Yes, but he was escorted from the Zvornik hydroelectric power station.

Q. And he returned to the village?

A. They returned him.

Q. You say that a certain Major Marko Pavlovic came with him.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the name of that man or was his name different? Did you hear anything about that?

A. I didn't hear anything about that, but the Crisis Staff people said how he had introduced himself.

Q. Oh, so how he introduced himself. Introduced himself as Marko ²⁰²⁵⁶ Pavlovic and as a major?

A. Yes, Major Marko Pavlovic.

Q. And did you infer on the basis of that that he was a member of the army?

A. He was wearing military uniform.

Q. And you say that he came to persuade the members of the Crisis Staff to have the armed people from your village hand over their weapons.

A. Yes.

Q. Did he explain to you why the surrender of weapons was required at all?

A. He didn't give me any explanations.

Q. All right. Tell me, did anybody attack the village?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did anybody shoot at the village?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was it?

A. Men from the other side of the Drina River, from Serbia.

Q. Very well. According to my information, it is from this location that is called Kula Grad, which was a kind of fortified place where there was a unit of Muslim forces, fire was opened from there on positions of the army of Yugoslavia on the other bank of the Drina River.

A. I am not aware of that.

Q. Are you not aware of it or do you believe that it is not correct?

A. I don't know whether fire was opened from Kula Grad on Serbia.

Q. Very well. And how many people were killed in the village during ²⁰²⁵⁷ that attack that you described? Was anyone killed?

A. I think no one was.

Q. I see. So no one was killed. You say that two days after their first arrival, this man who introduced himself as Major Pavlovic, he again organised a meeting to discuss the same issue.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you attend that meeting?

A. No.

Q. And who did you get information from about those meetings?

A. From people in the Crisis Staff.

Q. Did he threaten or intimidate the people there? What was the substance of that talk?

A. I don't know about any threats, but the content was that he repeated the demand for weapons to be handed over.

Q. And do you know to what extent that Crisis Staff and the unit in Kula Grad was armed, how many men they had under arms, under their control?

A. I don't know that.

Q. But as far as I can see, they advised you not to hand in your weapons. And then you say, "While Kula Grad was in Muslim hands, Divic has nothing to fear." That would be roughly what you say.

A. That was their opinion.

Q. And you have no idea or information as to how many of them were there nor that they opened fire across the Drina River on positions held by the army of Yugoslavia. ²⁰²⁵⁸

A. No, I have no information.

Q. And could you then come to the conclusion, without having any information, on what basis they were guaranteeing your security if you don't know how many of them there were nor who they are nor what kind of weapons they have? Because that would mean that should Divic be attacked, they would be the ones to defend you. Isn't that right?

A. I don't know.

Q. Let me not ask you any more questions about that then since you say you don't know.

And those attempts to remove weapons were actually attempts to resolve the problems that had cropped up in the area by peaceful means?

A. I don't know what kind of attempts those were.

Q. And the representatives of the Serb forces, that morning when Divic was attacked, did they propose that you surrender your weapons? Do you remember that?

A. Yes. They demanded that over the loudspeaker, speaking from the Serbian side of the river, that we surrender our weapons.

Q. Was it clear to you then that this was because there was shooting on the other side?

A. I don't know why they made that demand.

Q. Well, how then would they know that you were armed if you weren't firing at them?

A. I don't know.

Q. So you didn't see anything connected to the opening of fire on positions held by the army of Yugoslavia from your side? ^{20259 BLANK PAGE 20260}

A. From our side, I did not see anything.

Q. But all in all, no one was killed in that attack?

A. No one.

Q. On page 4, in paragraph 4, you say that members of the Crisis Staff fled from the village and took the weapons away; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anything stay behind which the locals handed in later?

A. I think there was some private weapons.

Q. I see. Only private ones. And do you know the answer to the question why members of the Crisis Staff had left? Why didn't they stay in Divic like the other inhabitants?

A. I don't know why they left, but I do know why they came back, because they were there when the weapons were handed in.

Q. Please explain to me: On page 5 of your statement, paragraph 1, you say that while you were in the administrative building of the Novi Izvor mine, some younger soldiers came, as you say, and asked that 10 by 10, as you said in the examination-in-chief go with them to search houses to see whether there were any weapons there and to check out all the houses. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But from what you said, your number of 174 went down to 164, 162. Was that right?

A. The first time 11 men left and then another man was taken away.

Q. What happened to those 11?

A. They never came back. What happened to them, I don't know ²⁰²⁶¹ exactly.

Q. And 162 of you arrived in Celopek?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know the exact number?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know the exact number?

A. Because there were 174 of us, 11 left, one was also taken out, so that's the number that remains.

Q. Do you know a name nicknamed Pufta among those who mistreated you over there?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you mention anyone else when you were talking to the investigators as having mistreated you apart from these Repic brothers, Zuca, and I don't know all their names. Do you remember anyone else? Can you give us any other names?

A. Zoka, or Zokica, and someone who introduced himself as Major.

Q. On page 8, paragraph 8, you say that this Zoka and Major shot Izet Hodzic in the knee and then ordered him to get lost and that he left and never returned. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And who shot him in the knee; Zoka or the Major?

A. I think it was the Major.

Q. And tell me, how did Izet Hodzic leave if he was wounded in the knee? How could he walk?

A. I don't know myself, but he did. ²⁰²⁶²

Q. Was he wounded in the knee? Was his knee hit?

A. It was.

Q. On page 8, in paragraph 1, you say that four Muslims who said to this alleged Major -- was that a nickname?

A. That's how they called him.

Q. And they handed money to this Major and that they were released, that three of them went to Serbia and one stayed in Zvornik. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know why these three went to Serbia and one went to Zvornik?

A. I don't know that.

Q. And who let them into Serbia? Were those the same men who had committed all those crimes that you enumerated in Celopek?

A. I don't know.

Q. So you don't know who let them leave your prison.

A. No. I wasn't with those men.

Q. Wait a moment. Then I don't understand. How can you explain an event that you don't know how it happened?

A. I met those people when I left, when I was released after the prison. And then they told me that they had been transferred to Serbia and from there they went on somewhere.

Q. Do I understand you correctly that you met those people after you left Batkovic?

A. Yes. ²⁰²⁶³

Q. Tell me, please, about these men who mistreated you and mutilated you and did all those horrors you described. Were they wearing any uniforms?

A. Some were; some were not.

Q. And those who were, how many of them were wearing uniforms and how many were not?

A. I think Zoka had a T-shirt with short sleeves, the Major sometimes, and they had camouflage trousers. As for the others, they were in uniform.

Q. The others were in civilian clothes?

A. No, in uniform.

Q. What kind of uniform?

A. Military uniform, whereas Repic had a special kind of uniform.

Q. What kind of uniform?

A. I don't know how to explain it. It's a special kind of uniform. It's not camouflage like the army, it's a different kind of material. I don't know how to put it. It was a little thicker, like a woolen material.

Q. I understand it that you heard from someone that this group was from Loznica.

A. Zoka's group.

Q. Who did you hear that from?

A. From people who were incarcerated in the Ciglana.

Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

A. People who were held in the Ciglana of Novi Izvor. ²⁰²⁶⁴

Q. Tell me, were they wearing any kind of insignia on those uniforms or the civilian clothes they wore or parts of clothing that they had on them? Did they have any markings?

A. No. With the exception of Repic who had an insignia on his cap.

Q. And what was that?

A. The traditional Serbian insignia.

Q. And what is that?

A. In our language it's a cockade. What the real name of it is I don't know.

Q. So he wore a cockade on his cap. Was it clear to you then that this was a paramilitary formation of some kind?

A. I didn't know those men, and I didn't know who they were or what formation they belonged to. I don't know.

Q. And when they came to Celopek, you had occasion to see what they came in. Did they use a vehicle of some sort probably?

A. We were shut up and we couldn't see whether they came in a vehicle or on foot. They entered on foot.

Q. Tell me how many people this group consisted of, this Repic's group and this Major's group. How many men did it have?

A. I don't know exactly but roughly five or six of them would come at a time.

Q. Five or six of them. I see. Please tell me, did you ever, while in Celopek, see a single person that you could assume belonged to the army of Yugoslavia or any kind of state body?

A. I don't know. ²⁰²⁶⁵

Q. Very well. Just a few more questions about your stay in Batkovic. According to the information I have here, that camp in Batkovic was a kind of collection centre; is that right?

A. There were about 1.500 men there from the surroundings of Zvornik, Kalesija, Vlasenica and Bratunac and the surrounding localities.

Q. And who was in charge of that camp? Who held it?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Do you know which formation? Was it some army or some sort of police force? Who were the people in charge of Batkovic?

A. The guards were military men, younger men. Later on, some older men came, again in military uniforms.

Q. And tell me, please, how many times did you see representatives of the Red Cross coming to visit the camp or collection centre or whatever we like to call it?

A. The first time they came -- after the first time, I think they came every 15 days, sometimes once a month, sometimes once a week. Up until the end they came to visit regularly.

Q. You spent a whole year there.

A. Something like that.

Q. And if they came sometimes once a week, sometimes once a month, sometimes once a fortnight, there must have been at least 20 visits over the period of one year, maybe even more.

A. Yes, something like that.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, roughly so. ²⁰²⁶⁶

Q. Did you ever have occasion to talk to representatives of the Red Cross?

A. I did not.

Q. And who spoke to them? Didn't they speak to the people who were captives there, who were detained there, imprisoned there, whatever you like to call it?

A. They did speak to some. They didn't speak to me personally, but they would more often than not bring us gifts. For example, personal hygiene kits, some clothing, cigarettes, and things like that.

Q. Were exchanges carried out of prisoners from that collection centre?

A. Yes. I was in one of those exchanges.

Q. Could you please explain and describe how you were exchanged. What was the actual procedure of your exchange?

A. I think it was through the mediation of the Red Cross, actually. I was exchanged in Sibosnica, not far from Tuzla.

Q. All right. Through the Red Cross you were exchanged, you say. As far as I understand from the information I've been given, everybody was exchanged through the Red Cross. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have to sign anything, make a statement of any kind, give some information to a Red Cross representative, your particulars, that kind of thing, and then he intervened with your exchange? What did this actual act of the exchange process look like?

A. Well, prior to the exchange, lists of persons were read out who ²⁰²⁶⁷ were going up for the exchange. After that, we would be loaded up into buses and taken to the actual location where the exchange took place. We then crossed over into Muslim territory.

Q. And who drew up the lists of persons to be exchanged?

A. I don't know, but the lists were read out.

Q. How many of you were in the group when you were exchanged? You weren't exchanged alone, I assume. There were a number of you, I assume, in one group.

A. Well, approximately 300 to 400 people.

Q. 300 to 400. Right. Now, in that one year that you spent in Batkovic, how many such groups were exchanged numbering so many people?

A. I think that my group was the largest group that was exchanged.

Q. But how many groups in all? On how many occasions did the exchange take place? Let me put it that way.

A. I don't know exactly. I know about one or two because I was in Batkovic. As to the others, I don't know, I wasn't there to see.

Q. You were asked at the beginning of your testimony about geography. That is to say you were asked to situate Zvornik, where Zvornik is and Mali Zvornik, one on one bank of the Drina, and the other on the other; that's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Serbs and Muslims lived in Zvornik; did they not?

A. Yes.

Q. And in Mali Zvornik, the inhabitants were also mixed, Serbs and Muslims. ²⁰²⁶⁸

A. Right.

Q. Zvornik is in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Mali Zvornik is in Serbia; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was in Zvornik that the conflicts took place. That's right isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever hear of any conflict in Mali Zvornik?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear of any mistreatment of Muslims by Serbs in Mali Zvornik across the bridge dividing Bosnia from Serbia?

A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that, no.

Q. Let me just take a look at my notes, if I may take a moment. Could you explain this to me, please, I didn't understand you very well: You described a rally, a meeting that took place in your village, and you say that the people or, rather, the local inhabitants rallied in front of the mosque. You remember that portion of your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, I made a note of that here and said that about 100 people had rallied together. I think that's what you said. So how come of the 2.500 inhabitants, only about 100 rallied there?

A. Well, I don't think everybody came to the rally.

Q. But not everyone, only 100.

A. There were just a hundred of them there.

Q. Well, what were the contents? What were the -- what was the rally ²⁰²⁶⁹ held in aid of? What was the rally's slogan?

A. The officer who was there asked that the weapons be handed over. If they didn't dare surrender their weapons officially, openly, then he pinpointed the stadium and told them that they could just leave their weapons there and leave.

Q. And what was the upshot of that request? Did they indeed leave their weapons?

A. Well, some weapons were handed over. I don't know about the rest.

Q. I forgot to ask you something with respect to Batkovic. Do you happen to know whether anyone mistreated the detainees in the Batkovic camp?

A. Yes.

Q. Mistreated? Yes or no.

A. Yes, they were mistreated.

Q. Did anybody mistreat you in Batkovic camp?

A. Sometimes.

Q. What form did this mistreatment take?

A. Blows, slaps. And when they would count us, I'd get a baton, a blow across my back, or when I was doing something, that kind of thing.

Q. But you don't know who held the centre.

A. No.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have ten minutes left, if you need it, for this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think I'll even need that long. ^{20270 BLANK PAGE 20271}

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said, Witness, in speaking about the fact that there were armed people in the village, that the police force was there. You mentioned the police.

A. Which armed people are you referring to?

Q. Well, I've made a note of this. After you spoke about the rally in front of the mosque and the demand that weapons be handed over, you said that there was some sort of police there.

A. The police came after the army.

Q. Mr. Groome asked you what kind of police it was, a local police force or what, and your answer was yes, that it was the local police.

A. They were wearing blue uniforms. I think it was the local police, yes.

Q. Were they people who had come from Zvornik or was there a police station in your village perhaps?

A. We didn't have a police station.

Q. And how many of those policemen turned up in your village?

A. I don't know exactly, but I would say roughly -- well, I don't know how many, actually.

Q. All right. Tell me this then, please: You said that in the Drina Hotel a person wearing civilian clothes was issuing certificates of some kind or permits which would allow people free passage, and you said that they could even go to Serbia.

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that you yourself were given a certificate of that ²⁰²⁷² kind.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you happen to have it with you?

A. No.

Q. You didn't keep it?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember what it said on the certificate or permit? What did it look like?

A. Well, it was an ordinary piece of paper, small piece of paper on which -- I don't know the actual wording, but it said that the person holding the piece of paper could move around the town of Zvornik during a certain period of time, and the times were mentioned.

Q. Was there a title? Did it mention the name of the authorities issuing the permit?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. Did it say the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik or the police station of Zvornik, or something like that, the Territorial Defence headquarters of Zvornik or anything else? Do you happen to remember?

A. No.

Q. Was there any title at all? Was there a signature on the permit?

A. No, I don't think there was a signature.

Q. So all it contained was your name and surname and it said permit or certificate allowing you to move around?

A. It didn't say name and surname.

Q. What did you say? ²⁰²⁷³

A. It just said what it said, the words on the piece of paper. It said: "This is to allow movement around the country with ID papers."

Q. So this was a sort of temporary permit or certificate which served in place, in lieu of your ID papers, or not?

A. It was valid together with my ID card.

Q. With your ID card.

A. Yes.

Q. So it had your name, surname, and your ID card number?

A. No. All it said were the contents. Let me repeat again: "This is to certify that there is free movement around town with ID papers, valid ID papers." That's all, impersonal.

Q. All right. Tell me this: You told us here that the police was replaced by some sort of army. What soldiers? What army?

A. They were people wearing military uniforms. Where they'd come from, I don't know.

Q. Did they have any insignia or anything like that?

A. Most probably they did, but I can't say now what they were.

Q. You explained to us that you were taken in 11 busloads to Olovo and stopped in Han Pijesak because you weren't able to proceed because of the combat activities.

A. That's what they told us.

Q. Then they took you back to Zvornik, and you went out to Tuzla and were stopped again because there was combat going on there too.

A. Yes.

Q. And then they took you back to Zvornik once again, did they? ²⁰²⁷⁴

A. Yes.

Q. To the bus stop.

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that the authorities wanted to send you to some safe and secure territory?

A. That's what they told us when they wanted to deport us. They said they would be transferring us and transporting us to Olovo.

Q. So you did set out in the buses, and you were returned because you weren't able to reach Olovo physically or to reach Tuzla physically.

A. That's what they told us.

Q. Well, would they have any reason to bus you around, drive you here and there, unless they were trying to actually transfer you to some other territory?

A. I can't really say. I don't know.

Q. You said that Branko Grujic, the mayor of Zvornik, addressed you.

A. Yes, he did address us in the Novi Izvor building.

Q. Upon your second return; right?

A. Yes, when we were separated from the women and children.

Q. And what did he tell you on that occasion? What did he say to you?

A. He said we should write down the names of the people there, that we would go off on some work assignment and that we would sign a loyalty oath.

Q. But nobody signed a loyalty oath of that kind, nor were you given these papers to sign; is that right? ²⁰²⁷⁵

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, I'm not quite clear about this. How did you, from the authorities in Zvornik where you were under their control and you had contacts with the mayor of Zvornik, suddenly turned up in the hands of this criminal group, group of criminals that perpetrated all the acts that you described to us?

A. That's not clear to me either. I don't know how we ended up there either.

Q. Well, who took you to Celopek? Who took you over and transported you to Celopek? Did they come to Celopek once you were already there or did they come and take you off?

A. We were escorted by the army and police to Celopek, and these people would come to Celopek once we were there.

Q. So the people that perpetrated the crimes you told us about appeared in Celopek once you were already there and incarcerated. That means they weren't in Zvornik, and they didn't take you to Celopek.

A. No, they didn't. That's right.

Q. And what happened to the army and the police that took you to Celopek? Did they go back to Zvornik? They returned to Zvornik?

A. I don't know where they went to after that.

Q. Well, who handed you over to these people? Was somebody there who handed you over to those people who perpetrated all those offences later on?

A. We were incarcerated there, and in front of the entrance as far as we could see were armed policemen. ²⁰²⁷⁶

Q. And those policemen, that police, were they present when they perpetrated the crimes you described to us?

A. They were outside the compound and sometimes would enter.

Q. Did anybody try to prevent any one of these people who were later on arrested and taken to trial in Serbia, did anybody prevent them from committing the crimes they committed?

A. Not in the hall. Outside, I don't know.

Q. Was any -- were any of the policemen in the hall? I assume that that belongs to the Zvornik municipality, Celopek.

A. Yes, Celopek is in Zvornik municipality.

Q. Well, was anybody there from the police station in Zvornik?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, how many real policemen were there except for that group of several people that you mentioned as being criminals? How many real policemen?

A. You mean real guards?

Q. I mean the policemen you mentioned. I don't know who your guards were.

A. Well, the police stood guard in front of the Dom, the centre. There might have been four or five of them, six perhaps. I don't know the exact number, but they were there.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must bring this examination to a close, but you can ask two more questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, just try and focus on this and try and give me an ²⁰²⁷⁷ explanation. What did that police have to do, those three or four policemen who stood guard there in Celopek? What did they have to do with the group who came to abuse you and mistreated you there? What were their links?

A. I don't know what they had to do with each other or whether they did have any connection at all. I know nothing about any of that.

Q. Well, were they present when these people abused you?

A. No, not when these people were taken out. They were outside, however, when they were being beaten, when blows were struck. They would come in sometimes into the hall, in the premises where we were shut up in.

Q. Well, did any of them try to protect you from the abuse?

A. Perhaps one or two men, they did protect. One or two, these policemen who stood guard outside.

Q. Just one or two?

A. Yes, just one or two.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this witness, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Just two questions, Your Honour. But as a preliminary matter, I have searched the records using the transcript and I'm not able to locate that exhibit. If the accused would provide us with a copy of that or allow us to copy the document and inform us whether it's a document he received from us or from some other source, we will attempt ²⁰²⁷⁸ to do a more thorough search of the exhibits this afternoon.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, would you let us have that document and we'll exhibit it. Should in fact we find that it has been exhibited already, it can be deleted, but the safest course is to exhibit it now. If you would give us those orders, if you would.

MR. GROOME: Can I ask, was this a document we provided the accused or was this a document he got on his own accord?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did have the document, and I have already handed it over as an exhibit here. I can find a copy of it. I haven't got the copy with me now. I have these two copies of the orders on the part of the General Staff and 1st Army which I quoted from and which I also wanted to tender into evidence, but I think that Mr. Kwon did actually quote the exhibit that I've already handed over. Of course we can make a search to find copies and other documents referring to the same case.

JUDGE MAY: We have -- we have covered the records of the court, Sabac court. We have not covered, as far as I can see, the orders which you referred to. Now, do you want those exhibited or not, the orders?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Hand them in, if you would, and we'll exhibit them.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Defence Exhibit dated the 1st of August, 1992 is Defence Exhibit 129. And then the order dated the 2nd of August, 1992 is Defence Exhibit 130.

Re-examined by Mr. Groome: ²⁰²⁷⁹

Q. Sir, when you were in Batkovic camp, was your name recorded by the people who were detaining you?

A. You mean by the Red Cross. Yes, my name was recorded. They made a note of my name and surname.

Q. And without saying your name, did you give them your true family name and first name?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now, it would appear from Defence Exhibit 150 -- sorry, Defence Exhibit 56, the comments made by the accused, and your testimony that you were in Batkovic for a year, it would appear that during the time this case was being investigated, you were in Batkovic, and my question to you is: During your time there, did anyone ever come and seek to interview you about what happened at Celopek?

A. No, nobody came.

Q. Were there other people who were detained in Celopek that subsequently were with you in Batkovic camp?

A. Yes.

Q. To your knowledge, were any of them interviewed about the crimes committed in Celopek?

A. I don't think so.

MR. GROOME: Nothing further.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1461, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

And we will -- before you do, we will have to bring the blinds ²⁰²⁸⁰ down. Is there some matter, Mr. Nice?

MR. NICE: The next witness is a witness for whom the provisions -- the application for provisions of 92 bis have been applied. It will possibly be helpful to dispose of that application today so that we can plan the better for the use of tomorrow's time.

The witness concerned has the benefit of some protection. He has a story, an account to give that is extremely powerful in many ways and one that any advocate would want to give in full, but the requirements that we deal with matters expeditiously make it a suitable witness to give via 92 bis for the majority of his evidence. There will only be a few matters that it might be helpful to take live.

JUDGE MAY: The problem is we -- we have this moment --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: We have only just this moment received the statement. It's very difficult to deal with it without having read it.

MR. NICE: I think there are two statements, an earlier one and later one.

JUDGE MAY: Two, yes.

MR. NICE: We haven't on this occasion got back to the earlier practice of paragraph numbering the paragraphs in the statements. May I make this observation to assist in your consideration: In the application, a very large number of the paragraphs in each statement are identified as paragraphs that we would seek to lead in the ordinary viva voce way. It would only be in respect of very limited parts of those general paragraphs that I would wish to give viva voce evidence. Despite ^{20281 BLANK PAGE 20282} the power of the statements made by this witness, I make the judgement that it is appropriate to take his evidence briefly if the Chamber is satisfied that 92 bis is appropriate.

JUDGE MAY: We will look at that. Yes, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the next witness, is it? Just like the previous witness, I have understood that the opposite side wanted it to come under Rule 92 bis and that that application would be made today. I don't understand that practice, just as I don't understand the practice that a witness who was -- whose name and surname was listed is suddenly proclaimed to be a protected witness. This is, as the French would say -- it seems to be a la mode at the moment, that everybody wants to be a protected witness so that nobody can see their faces and that they could come and testify under special conditions. So I am categorically opposed to the fact that the next witness come under Rule 92 bis, because the application was made today whereas the witness is due to testify already tomorrow, which is quite unacceptable.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will consider your objection and the circumstances.

Mr. Kay, is there anything, briefly, you want to say?

MR. KAY: I don't know if the Court wanted to hear from me now or wait until you've looked at the papers. I can give a very short --

JUDGE MAY: In a sentence, what would be your submission?

MR. KAY: It isn't acts and conduct of the accused. It is cumulative. Prosecution concede that there should be cross-examination. ²⁰²⁸³ It's the public interest element that the accused makes to the Court concerning the hearing of witnesses orally. I don't need to expand any further on those issues, having put it in a nutshell.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We will consider that and give our ruling in the morning.

JUDGE KWON: I think the transcript should say it is not the acts and conduct of the accused.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We will adjourn. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.