²⁰⁵⁰⁰

Friday, 9 May 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Mr. Dzemail Becirevic.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: DZEMAIL BECIREVIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is a witness whose statement we intend to tender under provisions of 92 bis. I'd ask if we could have an exhibit number assigned for that purpose.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 442, Your Honours.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 442 contains Mr. Becirevic's account of the events in Bratunac municipality prior to and during the takeover of Bratunac in April of 1991. At that time, he was the chief of the National Secretariat for Defence of the municipality. He describes the removal of weapons from the stores of the Territorial Defence. He gives a brief account of the development of and interaction ²⁰⁵⁰¹ between the SDS party and the SDA party and Miroslav Deronjic's significant role in the political and military developments in the Bratunac area.

The statement goes on to describe the events surrounding the mobilisation or call-up during the war in Croatia and the build-up of the JNA resources in the area of Bratunac upon their withdrawal from Croatia. He describes the founding of their respective Crisis Staffs in 1991. Mr. Becirevic's statement goes on to describe the wounding and killing of several Muslims in an ambush in the area of Kravica. It goes on to describe the establishment by Mr. Deronjic of a separate police force and the provision of military training for Serbs by the JNA. Prosecution Exhibit 442 continues with the actual takeover of the municipality in mid-April of 1992 and describes the appearance of Arkan's Tigers. In the statement, Mr. Becirevic goes on to describe seeing Mr. Deronjic in a camouflage uniform riding in a JNA armoured personnel carrier in the area of Konjevic Polje. The statement describes the fierce battle that ensued in this area.

The statement continues with the description of a counter-offensive launched from Serbia in the Bratunac area in January of 1993 after the Muslim forces took the area of Cerska. It describes troops coming from Ljubovija and Bajina Basta in Serbia, an offensive that lasted until the 15th of March, 1993.

We will seek at this stage to ask Mr. Becirevic some additional matters not contained in his statement, as well as I seek his comment on a number of exhibits. ²⁰⁵⁰² Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, my first question to you is: When were you demobilised?

A. Your Honour, I served in the Yugoslav People's Army from 1980 to 1981. And as for my involvement in the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I served from end April 1992 to 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, when I managed to get out of Srebrenica and go to Tuzla. That's when I was demobilised.

Q. What was your profession after you were demobilised, immediately after?

A. Immediately after my demobilisation, I continued for a couple of months to work in the military court in Tuzla as an investigative judge up until the end of the state of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, when the military court was abolished, whereupon I continued to work in a civilian court, the higher court of Tuzla, to be precise.

Q. And what is your current profession?

A. I am a lawyer, and I currently have my own private law practice in Sarajevo.

Q. Sir, in paragraph 4 of your statement, which is now Prosecution Exhibit 442, you describe the removal of weapons from the Territorial Defence building in Bratunac. My question to you in supplement to your statement is: Did you personally witness any of the removal of these weapons?

A. Yes. I saw with my own eyes when the Yugoslav People's Army arrived in 1989. At the time, I was working for an enterprise called Duhan, a tobacco factory in Bratunac, and the factory was located directly ²⁰⁵⁰³ opposite military depots. The depots held all the weaponry of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac, and the entire population of Bratunac contributed to the purchase of those weapons. In 1989, as I said, the Yugoslav People's Army arrived with about a dozen military vehicles and trucks, and all these arms were taken out and transported to Ljubovija in Serbia. I know nothing further about the fate of those arms. So the distance between the enterprise where I was working from the depots was barely 50 metres, and more importantly, from my office I could see what was going on, and I even went outside to look. Nobody offered any resistance when these weapons were being removed.

Q. If I might draw your attention now to paragraph 5 of your statement. You describe yourself as one of the first to organise and join the SDA party in Bratunac. Could I ask you to simply list the other significant members of the SDA party in Bratunac in -- at the time of its founding.

A. It was Nezid Muratovic, Dzevad Gusic, Dubicic Nijaz, Semsudin Durakovic, Abid Sirucic, and myself who set up the SDA, or rather, made a motion, an initiative for its establishment.

Q. And again, your statement deals in detail with the founding and membership of the SDS party. What I would ask you to deal with now is: Are you familiar with a part of that party or a committee on that party called the Initiative Board? And if so, I would ask you to list the names of the members of that board.

A. That body was called the Initiative Council or the Initiative Board of the Party of Democratic Action, and I just enumerated the people ²⁰⁵⁰⁴ who were on that board. I can also mention Hasan Smailovic as a member, Safet Dzanic --

Q. Sir --

A. -- and some others.

Q. -- I'm actually asking now about the other party, the SDS party, not the SDA party.

A. As for the SDS, the first founding members were Miroslav Deronjic, Jovan Nikolic, Nedjo Nikolic, Zoran Tesic, Zoran Radic, and some other Serbs whom I mentioned in my statement as having established the SDS party in Bratunac.

Q. Mr. Deronjic, what -- can you describe for us, during the period relevant to your testimony, can you describe what positions he held in the SDS party in Bratunac.

A. Your Honours, Miroslav Deronjic, apart from being the president of the SDS in Bratunac, also occupied the position of president of the SDS Crisis Staff of Bratunac. He was also president of the war commissioner's office for Bratunac and discharged a number of other functions. He was a member of a commission whose exclusive task - and this was a three-member commission - was to dispose of and allocate funds from the SDS account.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to comment on what knowledge you have regarding the relationship between the SDS board in Bratunac and the SDS leadership in Sarajevo at that time.

A. The SDS party in Bratunac received orders directly from the SDS in Sarajevo, and I remember very clearly that whenever we from the SDA tried to agree with the Bratunac SDS on some sort of division of authority after ²⁰⁵⁰⁵ the first democratic election, and whenever we would manage to reach an agreement, the SDS would ask for a timeout of one or two days for somebody to go to Sarajevo, to talk to Radovan Karadzic, the president of the SDS for Bosnia and Herzegovina. So they got instructions from Radovan Karadzic. But whenever we would resume talks to agree on the further division of authority, they would ignore us and renege on the agreement that we had reached.

Q. Sir, can you give us the names of some of the members of the Bratunac SDS that actually travelled to Sarajevo in the manner you've described?

A. Your Honours, first of all, it was Miroslav Deronjic, Radoljub Djukanovic, president of the executive board of the Bratunac Municipal Assembly, where I was a member too; then there was also Zoran Tesic and Jovan Nikolic. So these are the people who often went to Sarajevo to the head office of the SDS for consultations.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has a binder of ten exhibits it would seek to use with this witness. Could I ask that an exhibit number be assigned.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 443.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you take a look at a document. It is Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 2. My question to you is: Have you had a chance to review this prior to your testimony this morning, and do you recognise any of the names that are listed on this document?

A. Your Honours, I did not have occasion to see this document before ²⁰⁵⁰⁶ starting my testimony. As for the names listed here, I know all these people personally. The signatory of this document is the president of the executive board of the SDS for Bosnia and Herzegovina, Rajko Dukic, general manager of the bauxite mine in Milici. It belonged to Konjevic Polje municipality previously and then became a separate municipality. In 1991, which is the date of this document, these people were authorised to allocate SDS funds. I see the first name on the list, Milenko Katanic. He is a clerk in the municipal administration of Bratunac. I knew him personally because I also worked in the municipal administration. There was also Miroslav Deronjic, president of the SDS and president of the Crisis Staff, and Zoran Radic, also a member of the Crisis Staff and of the SDS executive board for Bratunac municipality.

MR. GROOME: Thank you. I'm finished with that exhibit.

Q. Sir, your statement is quite a detailed one, and there is a matter of which you have an awful lot of personal knowledge, that is, the -- the Muslim community's reaction to a mobilisation order. It's dealt with in great detail in your statement and it's also been the subject of testimony by other witnesses, so I will not go into it at this point. But I would ask you one question regarding it, and the particular aspect of it I would like to ask you about here is there came a time when there was an attempt to remove a list of reservists that was in your custody; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct, Your Honours.

Q. My question to you is: What knowledge do you have with respect to were other municipalities -- were similar attempts made to obtain possession of that -- a similar list from other municipalities? ²⁰⁵⁰⁷

A. Your Honours, I do know that in other municipalities as well there were attempts to take away these military files by force, in municipalities where Bosniaks were a majority.

Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention now to the area of Kravica and specifically to a number -- or to an event that occurred there. Do you know the event that I'm speaking about?

A. Your Honours, the Prosecutor probably means the events that had to do with the killing in Kravica on the 3rd of September, 1991, when there was an ambush in the evening. Four Bosniaks were attacked for no reason whatsoever, and they were moving along the road from Konjevic Polje towards Glogova -- rather, Bratunac. At a curve, from a rock in the village of Kajici near Kravica, they were ambushed. In that ambush, two young men were killed and two were seriously wounded. The murderers who had committed the killing are from Kravica; Radinko Milanovic, nicknamed Mali Raso, and the other one is Marko Markovic from Cerska, municipality of Ljubovija, Serbia. So they are the direct perpetrators of the crime, upon instructions of the SDS from Bratunac in order to cause tensions between the Bosniaks and the Serbs in the municipality of Bratunac.

Q. Sir, what was the consequence of this event?

A. Your Honours, after this killing, the Bosniak people was frightened. There was an escalation of tensions in the municipality of Bratunac. The following day, the road was closed temporarily. People came from Sarajevo - they had to come from Sarajevo, from the Presidency, from the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, top people - in order to try to ease the tensions, because there was a danger of having a war break out then in ²⁰⁵⁰⁸ the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. From the Presidency, Ganic came, as well as Nikola Koljevic. They came by helicopter to Bratunac to try to calm down the situation in the municipality. It was agreed that these two delegations go to Kravica together and that they try to establish how this killing occurred. Finally, Koljevic went on his own to Kravica without allowing a proper investigation and without making it possible for the perpetrators to be found immediately; that is to say, they forbade the legal authorities of the MUP from Bratunac to come and investigate who committed the crime and who organised the murder. After that, there were replacements, or rather, a resignation of the head of the MUP and the commander of the police were forced. Nezid Muratovic was in this position then as head of MUP, and Nikola Mandic was commander of the police force. After them --

Q. Was one of the consequences, as you describe in your statement, that Serbs left the area and also the appearance of artillery on the Serb side of the border in Ljubovija?

A. Your Honours, after that, that was one of the consequences too, that the moving out of Serbs to Ljubovija was staged. Allegedly after this killing that they had committed, there was some kind of danger looming over the Serbs in Bratunac. After that --

Q. At that time were patrols initiated by both the Muslim community and the Serb community as tensions rose?

A. Your Honours, it was agreed with the top echelons of the B & H MUP to reinforce the reserve MUP force by Serbs and Bosniaks so that these tensions would be eased. However, every village, Bosniak and Serb, at the ²⁰⁵⁰⁹ time had to have guards in the evening because there was fear from having some groups, paramilitary groups, coming in from Serbia and attacking people.

Q. During this time period, did you become aware of arms being distributed to the Serb community, members of the Serb community?

A. Your Honours, I learned that, after these events, weapons were being distributed and that also what started was the mass proliferation of weapons from Serbia. In the region of Voljavica, in the village of Pobrdje, an attempt was made to get weapons from Ljubovija there by boats. This was prevented at a given point in time, but it nevertheless continued later, that is to say, the supply of weapons. And one of the Serbs who took part in the supply of weapons was arrested, handed over to the MUP in Bratunac, but the next day he was released, which is to say that the MUP -- or rather, individual employees of the MUP took part in this arming of Serbs in Bratunac from Serbia.

Q. Can you briefly describe what, if any, arms were possessed by the Muslim community and any attempts to distribute them.

A. Your Honours, the Muslim community at that time did not have any weapons whatsoever. As I've already said, the arms of the TO were taken by the JNA. And as for privately owned weapons, there were some hunting guns that some Bosniaks had. At that time, an attempt was made to obtain weapons. Serbs themselves were selling trophy weapons at high prices, those that they had been issued themselves, the so-called Dobosari, the PAP rifles, and they were selling them at a high price to Bosniaks. But this was only done by people who wanted to earn a profit in this way. ²⁰⁵¹⁰

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to now take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 3. It's a book of minutes.

MR. GROOME: I would note for the Chamber that I will simply be seeking to mark this for identification and complete its foundation with another witness.

Q. Sir, this document, it's a lengthy document, purporting to be a book of minutes of meetings held in Bratunac. Have you had, in the last few days, an opportunity to read this book of minutes thoroughly?

A. This is a book of minutes on the establishment of the illegal Assembly of Bratunac, that is to say, of the Serb Municipality of Bratunac.

Q. Did you have a chance to read the events -- read the book of minutes and the events described in it?

A. Your Honours, I did not have an opportunity of seeing this minutes earlier, but I do know that a Serb Municipality of the Municipality of Bratunac was established in December 1991. The government -- or rather, the executive committee --

JUDGE MAY: Could you please, Mr. Becirevic, just concentrate on what counsel is asking you and just limit your questions -- your answers, if you would, to those questions.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Earlier this week, did you have an opportunity to read what you have before you now?

A. Your Honours, yes.

Q. Of the events described in that book of minutes of which you have ^{20511 BLANK PAGE 20512} personal knowledge, are they accurately reflected?

A. Yes, they are fully well-described here, because I knew, Your Honours, that the SDS had established a Serb Assembly of Bratunac --

Q. Sir --

A. -- as well as a government --

Q. -- I want to now draw your attention -- in your statement you talk about JNA military presence in Ljubovija. My question to you is: Were you able to see the military resources assembled in Ljubovija? And if so, could you please describe with as much detail as possible what those resources were.

A. Your Honours, I personally saw artillery being positioned on the other side of the Drina, in the region of Ljubovija, namely, in the region of Krs. These were tanks, Howitzers, and other heavy artillery pieces whose barrels were aimed at the municipality of Bratunac in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this was common knowledge among all the citizens of the municipality of Bratunac. Everybody could see this with their very own eyes, and so could I, since I worked --

Q. Can you please approximate for us the number of tanks that you saw and the number of Howitzers that you saw.

A. Your Honours, at Krs itself, which is 2 kilometres away from Bratunac on the other side of the Drina, only at one place there were at least two heavy weapons, a tank and an APC, with their barrels pointing at settlements in the Bratunac municipality. At another point, facing Voljavica and Bjelavica, there were a few artillery pieces whose barrels were pointing at Bratunac and the settlements around Bratunac. ²⁰⁵¹³

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to March of 1992. During that period of time, did you become aware that members of the Serb community were being secretly trained in military matters by the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. Your Honours, I knew that full well because I had that type of a job. Citizens who were Bosniaks came to see me every day, and they expressed their dissatisfaction over the fact that training was taking place in the village of Vranesevici, training of Serb forces by officers of the Yugoslav People's Army. After such pressures exerted upon the leadership of the Bratunac municipality by the citizens - and I was part of the leadership - I and the president of the municipality of Bratunac, the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, personally went to the corps command of the Yugoslav People's Army in Tuzla and we asked the commander, Jankovic, and his assistant to tell us what kind of unit this was and also what the possibilities were for having it removed from that village.

Q. When you went to the headquarters of the Tuzla Corps, who specifically did you speak with?

A. Specifically we talked to Jankovic. We were received by Jankovic and his assistant Gavric, who I personally knew from earlier on, because he came to see me at the secretariat when he came to mobilise wartime units that he needed in 1991 for the war in Croatia.

Q. What did they tell you in response to your complaint about the secret training by the officers of the JNA?

A. They said to us, quite literally, Your Honours, that right then they didn't know what kind of unit this was and that they, within two ²⁰⁵¹⁴ days, would send two officers, Sadic and Simic, to come to Bratunac and to go to the actual site with us so that we would inspect this locality and see what kind of unit this was. Two days later, when they were supposed to come to Bratunac, they simply didn't show up. We telephoned them. The president spoke personally, and I was right next to him in his office because I was greatly interested in this. Gavric answered the telephone and he said that they had established that this was not any unit from the area of responsibility of the Tuzla Corps or was it a unit from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the JNA. Rather, this was a unit that had come from Yugoslavia, and they had no authority whatsoever over that unit and they could not help us on that score.

Q. Sir, the area where this training was being conducted, was it under the area of responsibility of the Tuzla Corps?

A. Yes, this was in the area of responsibility of the Tuzla Corps, but before the war there had never been any JNA unit stationed there.

Q. Sir, I'm now going to ask that you take a look at a series of two documents that were generated in the third week of April 1992. The first one is Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 4. I'm going to ask that you read two sentences, first a sentence under number 1 and then the sentence under number 3, and then comment on that.

A. Your Honours, this is an order on the establishment of Territorial Defence staffs that was signed by the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality of Bratunac. Article 1: "Defence tasks in the territory of the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac shall be taken over by the Territorial Defence of the Serb Municipality of Bratunac." ²⁰⁵¹⁵ 3: "All decisions related to the use of the Territorial Defence shall be made by the Crisis Staff upon suggestions made by the commander of the Serbian Territorial Defence."

My comment would be as follows, Your Honours: At that time, I was in the municipality of Bratunac. I worked there. I worked there until the 17th of April, 1992, and I did not have an opportunity of familiarising myself with this document; that is to say, that all of this was done secretly at the time.

Q. Sir --

A. This --

Q. -- based upon your observations and experience from that time period, is there a connection between what's contained in this document and the training of people by the JNA that you've just described?

A. Your Honours, it can be seen indeed that there is a link between the training that was being carried out in Vranesevici and this order that was issued by the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality of Bratunac.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you now to take a look at a document from the 16th of April, 1992. It's tab 5 of Prosecution Exhibit 443. I'd ask you to take a look at this document. I'd ask you: Do you recognise the seal on the document? And then finally, if you would summarise its contents for us.

A. Your Honours, I did not have the opportunity of seeing this document before either, but I can state here that I am familiar with the stamp affixed by the Serb Municipality of Bratunac, this Serb Municipality being established in December 1991 although there was a legal Municipal ²⁰⁵¹⁶ Assembly of Bratunac. This means that by this order everything had been prepared in order to occupy Bratunac, and the actual occupation took place a day later.

Q. Would I be correct in saying that this document deals with the mobilisation of members of the Serb community to create a defence force?

A. The first item here shows that a decision was passed on the general mobilisation of the Serb people. And this was done on the basis of a decision of the Presidency of the Serb people of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so the staff or the Serb Municipality proclaimed general mobilisation on that day for all citizens who were ethnic Serbs and who were of age.

Q. Sir, you just referred to a takeover, I believe, on the next day. So I would draw your attention now to the 17th of April. Can you describe -- did there come a time during the course of that day that you saw men you believed to be members of Arkan's Tigers?

A. Your Honours, on the 17th of April, 1992 I went to work and I arrived in the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, that is to say, that I had intended to work on that day, to continue working. As I was passing by Fontana in Bratunac, I noticed some people who I did not know and who were armed. However, before that, on TV, I saw the occupation of Bijeljina on the 31st of March, 1992 and Zvornik on the 8th of April, 1992, so I noticed paramilitary formations that had come from Serbia. These were Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and members of the Yugoslav army. That is to say, that there were three types of uniforms and men wearing these uniforms were guarding the entrance to the Fontana Hotel. I asked around ²⁰⁵¹⁷ and I established that a meeting was being held there regarding the surrender of the municipality of Bratunac, and the legal organs of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina were also supposed to hand over the municipality of Bratunac to these paramilitaries who had come from Serbia. They had different insignia. I noticed --

JUDGE MAY: Just wait a minute. We have read your statement, Mr. Becirevic, and counsel are just asking you some additional questions, So just wait until he asks you.

Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I want to ask you: Of the paramilitary units that you are describing as being from Serbia, can you simply just list the ones that you were able to recognise.

A. That's right. That's right. Your Honours, I recognised Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and there were some people who were wearing the uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. The three groups that you have mentioned, were they intermingled among each other or did they seem to be separate in their location and in their interaction?

A. Your Honours, they were intermingled. Their objective was to guard the people who were attending the negotiations, the meeting, at the Fontana Hotel.

Q. Around this time period, were you shown a copy of a proclamation of -- relating to what was going on in Bratunac?

A. Your Honours, I had the opportunity of receiving a copy of this ²⁰⁵¹⁸ proclamation issued by the Yugoslav People's Army. The proclamation said that the legal authorities are being respected and that all faiths are being respected. An ironical sentence was added, that one loves one's brother no matter what faith that brother has.

What was also asked for was the surrender of weapons, the surrender of weapons by Bosniak paramilitaries, the way they called them, Bosniak paramilitary forces --

Q. Sir --

A. -- the signature said.

Q. -- I'd like to now ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 6. This document concerns the disarming of citizens. My question to you is: Do you recognise the signature on this document?

A. Your Honours, this signature is one I cannot recognise. However, I know that such a decision was passed on the disarming of citizens who possess weapons, citizens of the municipality of Bratunac. This was issued by the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality of Bratunac.

Q. And around this time period, were there activities by the forces -- the Serb forces in town consistent with disarming of -- the disarming of the Muslim community? Simply yes or no, if possible.

A. Your Honours, yes. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to now ask that the witness be shown tab 7 of Prosecution Exhibit 443.

Q. Sir, this is another document related to Bratunac, issued on the 16th of June, 1992. I'd ask you to look down the names listed on this document, and if you would identify which names you are familiar with and ²⁰⁵¹⁹ which names you -- if there are any that you are not familiar with, please indicate.

A. Your Honours, there are five names here. Of those, I know number 2, Miroslav Deronjic, number 3, Zoran Tesic - he was the secretary of the SDS - I know Jovan Nikolic, and Stanko Petrovic. So the four of them, I knew them all personally. I cooperated and worked with them. As for the first name, Dragan -- Dr. Dragan Djokanovic, I never saw him.

Q. Sir, this document concerns the establishment of a Municipal War Presidency. To your knowledge, was such a War Presidency established in Bratunac?

A. Yes. I do know that a War Presidency was set up by the Serb Municipality of Bratunac.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you now to take a look at tab 8 of Prosecution Exhibit 443. It's a document dated the very next day, the 17th of June, 1992. Would you tell us who is the author of this document.

A. Your Honours, the author of this document is the president of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic. And he confirms the appointment of the members of the War Presidency for the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac by way of this document.

Q. Sir, on the 17th of April, 1992, is it true that you left the town of Bratunac and went to Konjevic Polje, where you remained until the 15th of March, 1993?

A. Your Honours, on that particular day, when I saw what was going on in Bratunac, that the units had turned up there, I barely managed to escape and went to my native Konjevic Polje area, where I stayed until the ²⁰⁵²⁰ 15th of March, 1993.

Q. Now, sir, your statement deals in some detail with the events of Glogova. My question to you is: After what happened in Glogova, was there an event in Konjevic Polje where members of Koljevic -- or people in the community of Konjevic Polje blocked JNA forces as they were attempting to leave Bosnia? If so, I'd ask you to briefly describe what occurred between the people of Konjevic Polje and the JNA.

A. Your Honours, we received an order to the effect that the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road, or Konjevic Polje-Drinjaca road be kept open up until the 19th of May, 1992 -- or rather, this period of time was pinpointed by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and was extended for a three-day period. So we kept the road open, in fact, until the 22nd of May, 1992.

Q. And on the 22nd of May, 1992, did you and other members of your community block the road to passing JNA traffic?

A. We did not block the road on the 22nd because the JNA had already left Central Bosnia-Herzegovina and was moving towards Serbia. However, many units stayed behind. They just changed their insignia. They stayed behind on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina to fight there.

Q. Did there come a time when a blockade was set up in Konjevic Polje?

A. Yes.

Q. On what day?

A. Your Honours, at one particular point -- or rather, on the 22nd --

JUDGE MAY: You were asked -- just listen to what counsel ask.

MR. GROOME: ²⁰⁵²¹

Q. On what date, sir?

A. The 29th was when the road was closed, the 29th of May, 1992.

Q. Would it be fair to say that, in the months following this, that there was substantial fighting and attacks in the area of Konjevic Polje?

A. Your Honours, yes, that is right. There was substantial fighting in the area.

Q. During the course of this fighting, did you have opportunity to see aircraft involved in this fighting?

A. Your Honours, planes belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army overflew the area on a daily basis and shelled the area with heavy bombs that were referred to as Krmace in Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and Kamenica, which made a separate enclave surrounded on all sides.

Q. During this time period after the official withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, were you aware of participation in these -- in these war activities by members of the now renamed Yugoslav Army?

A. Yes, Your Honours, I was aware of that. I knew that those units had just changed their uniforms, or rather, insignia, but that they had the weapons they did before to carry on the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, to attack the territory of Konjevic Polje.

Q. During this period of time, were there any other units that you could identify or wore some distinctive uniform that you could see?

A. During the attack, Your Honours, of the area around Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and Kamenica, in addition to the Yugoslav People's Army units and the local Serb units, also taking part in the area were the so-called Red Berets, or rather, Arkan's and Seselj's men, and they were ^{20522 BLANK PAGE 20523} fighting to gain control of the area.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to January of 1993. Was there a major offensive by Serb forces during that time period in the Bratunac area?

A. Your Honours, the Serb forces launched an all-out heavy offensive in the free areas of Bratunac and Srebrenica from the 13th of January onwards right up until the 17th of April, 1993, when the territory was occupied and the people forced to withdraw to the Srebrenica enclave.

Q. Were you able to learn from where the forces that were -- you were opposing, where they were coming from?

A. Your Honours, I was able to learn this, that the units in fact were coming from Serbia and that they had crossed the bridge at Zvornik, they had crossed the bridge, the Ljubovija bridge at Bratunac, they had also crossed the bridge at Bajina Basta, so that from three flanks, three corps arrived and, together with the forces of the Bosnian Serbs, they attacked the free territory of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. During this time period, did you see aircraft involved? If so, would you describe the type of aircraft for us.

A. Yes, Your Honours, I did see aircraft flying over the area from the direction of Serbia, and they were shooting and targeting the free territory at random, which was Konjevic Polje and Cerska at that time, and similarly they used helicopters who were flying at a very low altitude and, with guided missiles and bombs, they targeted the positions of the BH army.

Q. And I want to now move on to March of 1993. Did there come a time ²⁰⁵²⁴ when the Serb forces were successful and the members of the Muslim community in this pocket, as well as the soldiers defending them, withdrew to the area of Srebrenica?

A. Your Honours, the civilians from Cerska Kamenica gathered together in Konjevic Polje, and all of them after that were forced to withdraw in the direction of Srebrenica, and that was on the 15th of March, 1993.

Q. Can you tell us approximately how many civilians were in this group?

A. Your Honours, from Cerska and Kamenica, about 5.000 civilians came in. And from Konjevic Polje, at least 5.000 civilians had to withdraw as well, so that from these three enclaves, there were at least 10.000 civilians who were having to be on the move towards Srebrenica.

Q. And in this group, how many soldiers were -- were part of that group?

A. Your Honours, in that group were the remnants of the BH army, the stragglers who were broken up by the enemy forces, and there were approximately 100 to 150 people holding this line for the civilians to ensure that they did not remain in the encirclement.

Q. Sir, I'm going to now ask you -- moving to a different subject, ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 10. It will be displayed on the television monitor in front of you. Do you recognise the site depicted in this photograph?

A. Your Honours, yes, I do recognise this. These are the grounds of a religious site, the mosque, in fact, in Konjevic Polje, my native town. And the mosque itself in the course of 1993, more exactly on the 15th of ²⁰⁵²⁵ March of that year, without any reason whatsoever was destroyed by tanks. It was attacked. And quite simply, it was attacked and targeted by tank shells and grenades. Two or three months later, when I went back to my native town, all I saw was a mass of rubble. That was all that was left of the mosque.

Q. Sir --

A. It was in ruins. And what I can see here now on the photograph --

Q. -- were you present when this mosque was fired upon?

A. Your Honours, I was present -- actually, I was just a couple of hundred metres away when the tanks arrived, to within 50 metres of the mosque, and they pointed their barrels in the direction of the mosque and started shooting at the mosque, and it was bullet-ridden by these shells from the tank.

Q. The tanks that damaged the mosque, were you able to identify what unit or what army they were from?

A. Your Honours, they were tanks belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army. They were olive-green in colour, and they were tanks which we referred to as the 84s, the tank 84.

Q. When did you observe these tanks fire upon the mosque?

A. Your Honours, the date was the 15th of March, which was the last time we were in the area, on the 15th of March, 1993.

Q. Now, at that time, the Yugoslav People's Army no longer existed. It had divided into two armies. This particular tank that you saw fire at the mosque, which of the two armies formerly known as the Yugoslav People's Army, did it belong to? ²⁰⁵²⁶

A. The tank belonged to the joint forces who were attacking Konjevic Polje, that is to say, the Yugoslav army and the Bosnian Serb forces. They pooled their efforts to attack Konjevic Polje, so it belonged to both of them.

Q. Sir, now, you -- you said that this group of people moved to Srebrenica. Can you tell us the date on which you arrived in Srebrenica?

A. Well, I left on the 15th of March, 1993, and the next day, the 16th, I was in the centre of town of Srebrenica, together with all the other people that had come in from the surrounding areas.

Q. Not counting the 10.000 people that you've told us went to this area, can you approximate for us how many people were in Srebrenica when you arrived.

A. Your Honours, in Srebrenica there were at least 40.000 civilians who had congregated there from all occupied territories around Srebrenica, and all of them came to that small space of several kilometres.

Q. Can I ask you to briefly describe the living conditions in Srebrenica at that period of time.

A. Your Honours, at that time when I arrived in Srebrenica, quite literally the people were out on the streets. They were lying around, women, children. At every 10 metres somebody had made a fire because it was cold. The weather was cold and people tried to keep warm by making fires. There was not enough room to put up these people anywhere in the buildings because most of the residential buildings had been destroyed anyway. So Srebrenica had no water at that time, no electricity, because the inflow of water and electricity had been cut off by the aggressor ²⁰⁵²⁷ forces.

Q. Now, during the period of time when you were in Srebrenica enclave, can you describe for us what knowledge you have with respect to humanitarian convoys destined for Srebrenica and whether or not they were able to reach Srebrenica.

A. Your Honours, upon my arrival in Srebrenica, I learnt that before that they had managed to bring in two or three convoys of humanitarian aid. When we arrived on the scene, several more convoys arrived, and two and a half thousand civilians were leaving towards Tuzla. But those convoys, the ones that were supposed to arrive after the demilitisation of Srebrenica, at least once a week, they were stopped by the Serbian forces at Bratunac and Ljubovija and they were not permitted free passage to Srebrenica to bring in the food, clothing, and everything else that the people needed there, because the people were quite literally hungry in Srebrenica.

Q. Sir, just to clarify a point in that last answer. Convoys taking people from Srebrenica out in the direction of Tuzla, were they stopped or were they allowed to pass?

A. Well, the convoys were stopped, and the aid did not reach Srebrenica. From some other convoys that had --

Q. Sir, I'm asking you about the outgoing convoys carrying people from Srebrenica to the area of Tuzla. Were those convoys impeded or prevented from leaving Srebrenica?

A. As far as those convoys were concerned, outgoing convoys, they were not stopped by the Serb forces. However, the civilians in Srebrenica ²⁰⁵²⁸ did stop the convoys because they endeavoured at any price to become part of the convoys and leave Srebrenica. So it was the civilians that stopped the convoys, civilians wanting to flee the area.

Q. Sir, would I be correct in saying that from April 1993 until the beginning of 1995, that military activity in the area of Srebrenica was at a minimum, compared to what it was at other times?

A. Your Honours --

JUDGE MAY: I'm trying to follow that. Military activity by who do you mean?

MR. GROOME: By both forces. I guess --

JUDGE MAY: Fighting you mean.

MR. GROOME: Fighting, yes.

Q. What was the level of fighting between that period -- or comparing that period to before April 1993 and after the start of 1995?

A. Your Honours, yes. The fighting was of low intensity. There was hardly any fighting at all, actually, except for a few sporadic incidents that took place.

Q. Was there a change in this at the beginning of 1995?

A. Your Honours, at the beginning of 1995, there was constant provocation from the units who held Srebrenica in an encirclement, under siege. Reconnaissance took place every day by the airplanes that flew overhead from the direction of Serbia, and there was systematic preparation for the ultimate and final occupation of Srebrenica.

Q. Did there come a time when you and a large group of other men in Srebrenica make a decision to leave the enclave? ²⁰⁵²⁹

A. Your Honours, yes. That happened on the 11th of July, 1995, when there was no saving Srebrenica or the people in it. And we took that decision. We decided to try on that day to break through from Bulja [phoen] towards Tuzla through hostile enemy territory.

Q. What did you fear would happen if Srebrenica fell?

A. Your Honours, first of all, I myself and my fellow fighters were afraid that if we fell into enemy hands we would be liquidated straight away, summarily, without any court or trial. And that's why we decided --

Q. Sir, this fear, was it based on any factual event that had occurred prior to this time?

A. Your Honours, it was precisely our fear that was based on the events that had taken place in April and May 1992, previous events, when the enemy forces of the aggressor from Serbia stormed Bratunac and, without a single bullet having been fired on the Bosnian side, in just the space of a month and a half, about 1.000 civilians were killed, women and children, in Bratunac. And in the Vuk Karadzic school itself, 500 civilians. And we knew very well that if that's the fate they suffered, people who had given no resistance at all, we could only imagine what would happen to us after having fought for three or four years.

Q. Can you approximate for us how many people were in the column of -- that accompanied you.

A. Your Honours, it is my rough estimate that the column numbered between 15 -- 12 to 15 thousand men, and it stretched for about 10 to 15 kilometres in its movement towards Tuzla.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you -- or I will conclude my questions to ²⁰⁵³⁰ you by asking you just to simply look at some photographs which will be displayed on the monitor in front of you.

The next one is Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 8. Do you recognise the -- or, I'm sorry, tab 9. Do you recognise what's depicted in that photograph?

A. Your Honours, I do recognise this photograph. It is a religious site, a mosque, in fact, that was in Glogova. And it was destroyed and brought into the aspect you see it now between the 9th and 10th of May, 1992.

Q. And finally, sir, I'd ask you to take a look at an exhibit previously tendered. That exhibit is Prosecution Exhibit 440, tab 3. Do you recognise the location depicted in this photograph?

A. Your Honours, yes, I do. I recognise this photograph too. Once again, it is a religious site, a mosque, which before the war was situated in Bratunac, the centre of town in fact, and it is no longer in existence today.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions. In the interest of time, I did not work with all of the exhibits. Perhaps at the end of the cross-examination, I could advise the Court which exhibits we would seek to withdraw.

JUDGE KWON: Before the cross-examination, I have one question to the Prosecution.

If the usher can kindly put two B/C/S versions of tab 8, of this. The English version of this tab, at the end of it, it says ERN number 3134 is a copy of the same document. ²⁰⁵³¹ Put two so that we can see the two pages at the same time. This is the confirmation of war commission by Mr. Karadzic. But if you look at those two pages, the document number, which is handwritten, looks different, and the signature of Mr. Karadzic is different, and the stamp is different. If you help us with that, help us why there should be two versions of the B/C/S version and why Mr. Karadzic signed twice.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure --

JUDGE KWON: You can tell us later, after the adjournment.

MR. GROOME: Yes. I'd look into the providence of the documents and report to the Court.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the usher return. What we'll do is this: We started a quarter of an hour later today, so we'll sit throughout the day a quarter of an hour later. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got a quarter of an hour or so before the adjournment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us just clear up one thing before, Mr. May. This witness was introduced yesterday as a 92 bis witness; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And as you see, in addition to the fact that he was introduced together with all these papers as a 92 bis witness, he was examined, according to your mathematics, for an additional hour and a half. How much time will you give me? ²⁰⁵³²

JUDGE MAY: He was examined for an hour and ten minutes, in fact. We'll take that into account. Just let me consider for a moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Two hours. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Becirevic, according to the information that you referred to, you in fact convened the Initiative Board for the establishment of the SDA in Bratunac; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that meeting held in June 1990 in Voljavica in the reading hole of the Podrinje club? Tell me just yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it correct that the Initiative Board, in addition to you and the people you already enumerated, consisted of the chief Imam of the Bratunac community, Mustafa Mujkanovic, as well as Nezid Muratovic, professor of history from Trban [phoen], you said also another man, Semsudin Durakovic, construction engineer, Hasan Smailovic, director of the veterinary station, Safet Dzanic, Mehmetovic, Abid Sirucic, Hasim Ibrahimovic from Bleceva [phoen], Azem Dzanic from Bratunac; is that correct?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed a couple of names.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I mentioned most of them already in my testimony.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did I make any mistake in listing the names? ^{20533 BLANK PAGE 20534}

A. You made a slight mistake in the names.

Q. You mean in the pronunciation?

A. Yes.

Q. How about this chief, Imam Mujkanovic? Was he there together with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Speak up, please. How did you fail to mention such a prominent member of the board?

A. I didn't do it deliberately. I may not have recalled him at the moment. There is no dispute about that.

Q. I know you didn't do it deliberately. Is it true that the founding assembly of the SDA in Bratunac - we were talking about the Initiative Board until now - was held on the 1st September, 1990, nine-zero, at the town stadium, in front of 10.000 people? Is that correct?

A. Yes. There's no mistake there.

Q. Is it also true that you were the general secretary of the SDA of Bratunac? Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it correct that you were a member of the War Presidency for the Bratunac municipality and that you became president at a meeting held in Konjevic Polje on the 16th of July, 1992?

A. Correct, but it happened only after the crimes committed in Bratunac.

Q. I want just yes or no answers in order not to waste time. We'll ²⁰⁵³⁵ see about the crimes later.

Is it true that you were the president of the War Presidency in Bratunac?

A. I was president of the War Presidency for Konjevic Polje, not Bratunac.

Q. But you were the president of the War Presidency personally.

A. Yes, but for Konjevic Polje.

Q. Is it true that in 1992 you were personally and very directly involved in the formation of the Patriotic League in Bratunac?

A. That's not correct.

Q. Fine. Is it true that the Patriotic League, Patriotic People's League was established in February 1992 at a meeting held at the local commune of Voljavica which you attended and were involved in the work of the Presidency. Is that correct?

A. That's true. I attended.

Q. So you were there when the Patriotic League was formed in February 1992 and you said a moment ago you were not involved in its establishment.

A. I attended the meeting.

Q. As an observer?

A. I attended more as an observer.

Q. But also president of the War Presidency.

A. I wasn't in that job at the time.

Q. Is it true that after the establishment of the Patriotic League, together with Captain Velid Sabic, former officer and deserter from the JNA, you embarked upon the setting up of the Patriotic League for Konjevic ²⁰⁵³⁶ Polje?

A. Yes. We were forced to do it.

Q. I'm not going into what you were forced to do and what you weren't. Serbs too may have been forced to defend themselves but you have another explanation nevertheless.

Is it true that that man became chief of staff and you became assistant?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true on the 8th of April, 1992 you transferred all the powers in Konjevic Polje to the so-called Konjevic Polje Crisis Staff?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true that immediately after the establishment of the Crisis Staff, you set up a group of volunteers which you sent to Kula Grad in Zvornik to fight Serbs?

A. It was only an attempt to help the people who were trying to defend --

Q. Give me just yes or no answers, because you gave an oath here and I heard that you were a lawyer. Is it true you set up a group of volunteers you sent to Kula Grad to fight Serbs?

A. I was one of the organisers.

Q. One of the organisers. Okay. Is it true that on the 15th of April, 1992 you put yourself at the disposal of the Armed Forces of the BH, Bosnia and Herzegovina?

I apologise to the interpreters. I was just warned. I'll repeat my question. ²⁰⁵³⁷ Is it true that on the 15th of April, 1992 you put yourself at the orders and service of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Is that correct, the date?

A. The date is formally correct, but in actual fact, this happened later.

Q. So we have a formal date and an actual date.

A. It actually happened on the 27th.

Q. Okay. Tell me, is it true that as a major of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you occupied the position of assistant commander for morale and religious affairs in the 8th Operative Group of Srebrenica?

A. That is not true. I never held that rank in the army.

JUDGE MAY: It's been put that you were a major. Is that part correct or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not correct, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Were you assistant commander for morale and religious affairs in the 8th Operative Group of Srebrenica?

A. I was not assistant commander in the 8th Operative Group. I was assistant commander in a brigade. That's quite a difference.

Q. Assistant commander for what, for religious issues?

A. For morale and religious issues.

Q. I'll tell you later about what that involves. Were you under the direct command of Naser Oric?

A. I wasn't under his direct command. I was under the direct command of Veiz Sabic. ²⁰⁵³⁸

Q. All right. I will give you an exhibit. First of all, I'll read this out, and this is an exhibit, the document I got from the opposite side, numbered 01837194, Opinion and Proposal of the Commander of the 8th Operative Group of Srebrenica. And it says in the document: "Dzemail Becirevic put himself at the disposal of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina as of the 15th of April, 1992." It says "15/4/92." I'm reading "April." "Engaged in the armed forces of the RBH as of the 16th of April, 1992, occupied the position of assistant commander for morale, LPD, and religious issues. He is hereby admitted into active military duty, and I hereby propose that he be promoted into major. He deserves special credit for resisting the enemy together with Veiz Sabic. During the war, he occupied the position of president of the Presidency of -- the War Presidency of Konjevic Polje from July 1992 to January 1993, whereas on the 23rd of January, 1994 he was elected president of the local commune."

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's impossible for him to take all that in. Let him look at the document.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You could also put it on the -- oh, I see Mr. Groome already has it.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would also be grateful to have it somewhere.

JUDGE MAY: Do you have a copy for the interpreters? So much the better, but I suspect we haven't. We've got not a copy for anybody. Just have a look at that, Mr. Becirevic, and tell us about it. Just let the witness see it and then it can be put on the ELMO. ²⁰⁵³⁹ Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go on?

JUDGE MAY: No. Wait a minute. Can you help us about that document?

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge May, please.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Can you help us with that document?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I put myself at the disposal of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 27th, not the 15th of April, 1992. And as for these positions that I occupied in Konjevic Polje, none of that is in dispute. In Srebrenica --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, go on. In Srebrenica ...?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Srebrenica, I was assistant commander for morale and religious issues in the 284th East Bosnian Light Brigade, which acted on the axis of Konjevic Polje to Cerska Kamenica. Those were my responsibilities in that brigade.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What was the strength of that brigade?

A. That brigade had about 1.000 men on paper. Out of that number, one in three or four men had a weapon.

Q. We've already heard similar descriptions. I don't know what you used to kill all those Serbs and raze so many Serb villages to the ground if only one in three or four of you was armed,

JUDGE MAY: No. Wait a minute. I just want to clarify this document you've shown the witness.

What is that document, Mr. Becirevic? Can you help us as to what ²⁰⁵⁴⁰ it is?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, Your Honours, I see this for the very first time. I can see the signature of the commander of the 8th Operative Group, but I don't remember that I personally proposed myself for promotion into whatever rank. I was, by rank, senior lieutenant, and in order to be promoted, I either had to apply first or somebody had to propose me for promotion into major.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. Since this is a document of their 8th Operative Group signed by Naser Oric, I think it can be admitted as an exhibit, unless you absolutely refuse.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will admit that as an exhibit. If the usher would like to go and get it, yes. Give it the next number, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 129.

JUDGE KWON: It should be 131, in my calculation.

THE REGISTRAR: You're correct, Your Honour. Defence Exhibit 131.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This morning, in this abbreviated examination-in-chief, but also on page 6 in paragraph 5 of your statement, you describe how on the 17th of April, 1992 outside Fontana Hotel in Bratunac you saw some "Arkan's men, Seselj's men wearing special uniforms --" I'm reading from your statement. Let me look up this page 6 of your statement because -- "I saw three soldiers outside the entrance, their guns at the ready, wearing special uniforms, bandannas," and so on. How come you're saying today, since you claim you saw some paramilitaries, how do you know who they were and how come you are mentioning JNA as well today, which is not ²⁰⁵⁴¹ in the statement?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the statement be put before the witness. He does identify the members of that paramilitary group in his statement.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

JUDGE KWON: If you could give the number of the paragraph.

MR. GROOME: It is paragraph 20 on the numbered version, Your Honour.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Let's move on.

JUDGE MAY: No. Let the witness find his way around. You can't let him not deal with matters which you put to him. Do you see that, Mr. Becirevic? Have you got the point?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Keep the statement there. We're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes.

Mr. Becirevic, in this adjournment and any others there may be during your evidence, would you remember not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that does include members of the Prosecution team. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's just clarify one thing. In your statement, you mentioned ²⁰⁵⁴² what I read out to you, that is to say, on page 6, 17th of April, a group of Arkan's men arrived in Bratunac from Serbia. "They entered the hotel and took it over. I saw three soldiers outside the front door holding their weapons at the ready. They had special uniforms which I recognised from television reports, they wore a special bandana around their heads," and so on and so forth, "but I'm sure they were from Arkan's group." You don't mention the JNA here. You don't mention Seselj's men at all. You now mention the JNA, Seselj's men, Arkan's men, even the Red Berets. And here you talk about bandannas around their heads. Did you invent all of this?

A. Your Honours, I did not invent anything. I was in Bratunac on that day, and I saw these paramilitary formations that had come from Serbia with different uniforms and insignia that they had on their sleeves.

Q. Do you know, Mr. Becirevic, that even the Serb volunteer guard, Arkan's guard, was not in Bratunac at all? It was some group of criminals from Bijeljina.

A. Your Honours, this is not correct, because all of us in Bosnia-Herzegovina watched television and saw what Arkan's men did in Bijeljina.

Q. You're talking about Bratunac. You're talking about Bratunac, not Bijeljina.

A. But such groups entered Bratunac on the 17th of April as well and occupied it.

Q. Are you saying such groups or those groups? ²⁰⁵⁴³

A. Groups that wore the same uniform and the same insignia. Those that took Bijeljina were in Bratunac on the 17th of April, 1992 as well.

Q. All right. All right. Do you know who Nijaz Masic is?

A. Your Honours, I know Nijaz Masic. He's a professor who worked at the high school in Bratunac.

Q. All right. He wrote a book that is entitled "The Truth About Bratunac."

A. It is correct that he wrote that book.

Q. You knew him personally, I assume. You know him personally?

A. I do know him personally.

Q. In the book, he says, as a matter of fact, that some commission had been set up of the War Presidency of the Municipality of Bratunac with its seat in Srebrenica consisting of the following persons: Dzemail Becirevic, Selmo Ibisevic and Nijaz Masic. So together with you he was a member of this commission consisting of three members.

A. I don't know what kind of war commission you're talking about. This was a commission that had as its objective to get out of Srebrenica and to reach Tuzla. However, it never succeeded in this intention of theirs because in the first attempt made to that effect the Serb forces ambushed them and they had to return and people were even killed.

Q. All right. So you didn't finish that job, but I just wanted to establish your immediate connection to Nijaz Masic, the work you did together.

Now, since you've mentioned all of this, everything you saw on the 17th of April, now let us leave aside the differences concerning what it ^{20544 BLANK PAGE 20545} says -- between what you said here and what it says in the statement. Give me a precise answer to the following question: Is it correct that on the 17th of April, 1992 you were not in Bratunac at all or in Hrncici and that therefore you could not see either Arkan's men or Seselj's men or soldiers or anybody else or anything else. You could not feel endangered in any way at all because you were not in Bratunac on the 17th of April.

A. Your Honours, the truth is that on the 17th of April, 1992 I was in Bratunac. There are witnesses as to who I came to Bratunac with and who I returned with, and there are also Serbs who I found in my office, one of my clerks.

Q. All right. All right, Mr. Becirevic. I'm going to read a paragraph from page 65 of Nijaz Masic's book, in which it says quite literally --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this has been marked by 02060087, 65, page 65 of the book, that is. I am going to read this paragraph. "In the night between the 27th and 28th of April, 1992, with Aganovic Brdo there was a new meeting of armed prominent persons from Konjevic Polje. At this meeting the citizens of Konjevic Polje were familiarised with the demand made --"

Am I reading too fast for the interpreters?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters say yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "At the meeting the citizens of Konjevic Polje were familiarised with the demand made by the Chetniks and their following intentions. A decision was reached to establish contact with Cerska as soon as possible and to prevent the surrender of weapons in ²⁰⁵⁴⁶ that area and in this way create a united front against the aggressor."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, please, pay attention to the following sentence. I'm not omitting anything: "Velid Sabic and Dzemail Becirevic familiarised the persons present with their visit -- their travel made on the 17th of April, 1992 to Tuzla, where they were received by Fuad Hadziabdic and he said to them that he could not help them with arming along with the recommendation," et cetera, et cetera. And then it comes to the following page.

So at that meeting you told people about your trip, about your travel to --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer these passages, if you're going to put them to him.

What is suggested by this author, as you've heard, Mr. Becirevic, is that you, on the 17th of April, travelled to Tuzla to try and get help. Is the author right about that or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am going to answer this question. On the 17th of April, I was in Bratunac until 12.00. When I saw what was going on in Bratunac, that Bratunac would be occupied, from Bratunac I made a telephone call to my superior, Fuad Hadziabdic, and I asked him what to do. I said some military people came here, some paramilitary forces, they've occupied the town, it's almost fallen into their hands. And he answered me, quite literally, "Over the telephone I cannot give you any kind of answer or assistance. Therefore, try to come with Velid Sabic --" because I told him that Velid Sabic was there too. ²⁰⁵⁴⁷ And he said, come with him to Tuzla and we are going to agree on all of this. And then at 12.00 I left Bratunac. I came to Konjevic Polje. Around 1500 hours, we set out for Tuzla. We arrived in Tuzla. We met only for about 15 minutes with this Fuad. He was the Assistant Minister for National Defence for the Tuzla region. He can confirm that. He said to us that he could not help us, he could not help Bratunac and the people of Bratunac. He said that Tuzla was in danger as well and that Tuzla needed help too.

He said, "Go back there. Go back to these people in Konjevic Polje. Let the army leave. Try to engage in partisan warfare when the time comes. Until the army leaves, you cannot take any kind of action." So around 1700 hours, we returned. There are witnesses. There is a lawyer, Salcin Dzamic, who we found in Tuzla and who asked us, "Where are you going back to? Do you know that Bratunac fell today at 3.00?" We said we had been in Bratunac until 12.00. "But never mind. We're going back there again because the people are waiting for us there. We are going to help the people."

So in the evening we returned to Konjevic Polje. That is the truth. And I have hundreds of witnesses.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So it is not being contested that on the 17th of April, 1992 you and Velid Sabic went to Tuzla and that you were received there by Fuad Hadziabdic and he said that he could not help you and all of this happened at this lightning speed that you've referred to. And how far is the distance between Bratunac and Tuzla? ²⁰⁵⁴⁸

A. First of all, let me tell the Honourable Trial Chamber that from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje it takes about 20 minutes by car, and from Konjevic Polje to Tuzla we went along the following road: Milici, where we were stopped by the Serb police, and they searched us, and then we went via Vlasenica, Tisce, Kladanj, we reached Tuzla. We were down there for about half an hour or an hour.

Q. Tell me, how long does one travel from Bratunac via Konjevic Polje, Kladanj, and so on, all these places you mentioned, to Tuzla?

A. About an hour and a half or two by car.

Q. So you need two hours to arrive in Tuzla without anybody detaining you along the way, and you had been stopped.

A. Yes, but we were just searched at two checkpoints.

Q. And you did all of that within this short span of time that you described.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could you please take this page, which is marked by this number of the opposite side, would you please take it into evidence?

JUDGE MAY: I doubt if it's evidence because it's what somebody has written in a book. So I doubt it's evidence. But let the witness see it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he confirmed what it says in the book. That is precisely what I'm saying, that on that day he was in Tuzla.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have hundreds of witnesses who are going to confirm that on that day I was in Bratunac ²⁰⁵⁴⁹ until 12.00, that I was in my office, that Gavric, my clerk, saw me and said to me, "What are you waiting for here? Run away. See that --"

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're not going to admit that page. You've heard what the witness says about it. In fact, there doesn't seem to be much dispute about what you allege. He says he went to Tuzla that afternoon but was in Bratunac in the morning.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And it's not disputed that during the night between the 27th and 28th of April at this meeting at Aganovic Brdo, together with a few armed men from Konjevic Polje, that you told them about your trip to Tuzla on the 17th and the meeting with Hadziabdic; is that right?

A. It is not disputed that on the 27th in the evening we were at Aganovic Brdo, and it is quite clear why we met there; because we were expelled from our homes.

Q. All right. Am I right further on when I say that you established the 114th East Bosnian Brigade from Konjevic Polje, which became a part of the 284th East Bosnian Light Brigade?

A. It is correct, Your Honours, that I am one of the participants, and that the commander of that brigade was a former officer of the Yugoslav army Sabic Velid.

Q. All right. Is it correct that you were within the command of that brigade? ²⁰⁵⁵⁰

A. It is correct that I was assistant commander for morale in that brigade.

Q. The command of this unit consisted of the following persons, as it says on page 101 of this book, and it also has been marked by the other side as 06260106, was Velid Sabic, commander; then Suljic, deputy; Ejub Dedic, chief of staff; Fehim Hasanovic; Ismet Celikovic; Nail Jusupovic; Mehmedalija Mehic; Fadil Muminovic; Fadil Dedic; Dzemail Becirevic - you, that is - Enes Ibrahimovic; Ismet Mujanovic; Hajrudin Turnadzic; and Avdo Majstorovic.

JUDGE MAY: He can't be expected to take all these names in. Did you get those names and is it right that they were -- formed part of the brigade, or would you like any of them repeated?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is no need. I know most of these people, and they were in the brigade, 284 EB Srebrenica, and I was one of the members too, of course, of this top command of this brigade in Srebrenica.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So that is what I -- what I described as the top command of that brigade.

A. Yes. That's not disputed.

Q. All right. Now, tell me, do you know, Mr. Becirevic, that the State Commission for War Crimes and Genocide of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in its memorandum on war crimes and genocide in Eastern Bosnia, the municipalities of Bratunac, Skelani, and Srebrenica, dated the month of April 1993, you were -- put you on the list as one of the ²⁰⁵⁵¹ organisers of the genocide against the Serb people under the column of "Officials and Organisers"?

A. I'm not aware of that. But Dzemail Becirevic has a well-known address. Right now I live in Sarajevo. I often travel to Bratunac. I am an Assemblyman in the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, and that kind of question was put to me in 1997, when I was a candidate for vice-president of the Assembly and I was told that allegedly I had committed some kind of war crimes, and then the international community said to these persons who had raised this question that they should present evidence to that effect, and they were given a deadline, a 30-day deadline. If they have anything to say against me, they could go ahead. Since then it's been six years, and I am still at everybody's disposal. My address is well-known. If they have anything, let them go ahead with it, but they have to prove it. I have been called here first and foremost to testify about the aggression that had been carried out against Bosnia-Herzegovina, namely, the municipality of Bratunac.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, lest you interrupt me in my efforts to indicate by way of questions what crimes were committed and the number of victims and also how many villages were razed to the ground and torched in the municipality of Bratunac, I wish to tender into evidence this document.

JUDGE MAY: Which one?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have indicated that particular document several times in its entirety. I wish to draw your attention ²⁰⁵⁵² to --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, which is the document that you're asking to admit?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The memorandum about war crimes and the crime of genocide in Eastern Bosnia in the municipalities of Bratunac, Skelani, and Srebrenica committed against the Serb people from April 1992 until April 1993. This was compiled by the Yugoslav State Committee for War Crimes and Genocide, and the date is April 1993. On this page, which the --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I suppose one course, Mr. Groome - I mean, maybe you have an objection - may be to mark it for identification purposes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would not oppose marking it for identification. I would object, on behalf of the Prosecution, to its introduction in evidence.

JUDGE MAY: It would seem reasonable to mark it for identification.

Yes, we will do that and get a number for it, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 132, marked for identification.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Before you mark it for identification, I would just like to inform you that the title page of the document is 01975, and it is the number provided by the opposite side. The page is the one I mentioned to Mr. Becirevic, and it is 00678851, and the title there is "A list of war criminals in the territory of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica, and Skelani for which evidence and proof ²⁰⁵⁵³ exists that they are in Srebrenica." And under number 14, we find the name of Becirevic Dzemail, born in 1960 in Bratunac. So here you have the document in its entirety for you to see for yourselves. As the opposite side does have this document, I assume that it has certain responsibilities with respect to those war crimes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may be heard briefly.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: This is another one of several commissions funded and organised by respected members of the conflict that investigated crimes during the war and issued these reports. Just as the Prosecution has never sought to admit the results of these commissions as evidence of -- that Mr. Milosevic is guilty of war crimes, the Prosecution opposes that they're introduced as evidence of that somebody else has committed any crimes.

The Prosecution received these reports from respective members of the party. In light of our obligations under Rule 68, a full copy of that was provided to the accused so that he could use it in his questioning of the witness. But it's the Prosecution's position that these documents in and of themselves do not bear sufficient reliability or credibility to be introduced into evidence for the proof of the facts that they assert.

JUDGE MAY: Well, at this stage the exhibit will be simply marked for identification purposes. If in due course evidence is produced to support it, then of course we'll reconsider whether it should be introduced fully or not.

Let me hand it back. ²⁰⁵⁵⁴

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I have an excerpt from the criminal files of those accused of war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 to 1995. I've extracted page 76 from that document, and it includes a number of individuals.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

Q. I'll just read out what has to do with you, Mr. Becirevic, and that is this: It says: "Becirevic Dzemail, born in 1960 in Bratunac, secretary of the SDA in Bratunac, responsible for preparing to attack military formations in Bratunac against the civilian population of Serbian villages and settlements -- Bratunac settlement, Konjevic Polje, and others. And between May and December 1992 a mass and individual killings and took place of civilians, including women, children, elderly persons, sick people, disabled people, and so on. And most of the houses and villages were then looted, burnt to the ground, or destroyed. In the course of these attacks, without any military need, the civilian population was mistreated, massacred, and tortured, taken off to prisons and camps, and displaced in the efforts of ethnic cleansing of the area." So these are all excerpts from criminal files against the perpetrators of war crimes committed against the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I've just read out this brief extract, which indicates that this took place --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- and mentions the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see the document, and then he can ^{20555 BLANK PAGE 20556} answer.

Who is it who makes these allegations, Mr. Milosevic? Can you help us with that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says there, the heading, it is "The excerpt from criminal files by the organs of Bosnia-Herzegovina," or rather, I suppose that they are the authorities -- the competent authorities in the area -- in the Republic of Serbia.

JUDGE MAY: [Microphone not activated] now, Mr. Becirevic, you can look at that document -- You could look at that document and see what it says. You can comment upon the document, and you can also deal with the allegation that you took part in organising attacks on villages which resulted in them being razed to the ground.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the allegations made by the accused are absolutely not true. First of all, I have been called here to testify about the organisation, aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, in specific terms the Bratunac municipality, the aggression itself and the genocide that was committed.

JUDGE MAY: We know why you've come here and what you've said, so there's no need to repeat that. But obviously these allegations are being made and you should have a chance to deal with them. Is there a word of truth in anything that's written there?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is not a word of truth in all this, because at that material time I was in Konjevic Polje and Konjevic Polje exclusively waged defensive operations. That is to say, there were daily attacks launched against it precisely from the ²⁰⁵⁵⁷ opposite side, so how could we attack somebody when we were actually under a total encirclement and siege from the 17th of April right up to the time we were expelled towards Srebrenica. Konjevic Polje had no exits anywhere. So this is not correct.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Groome, again, marked for identification, unless you have any objection.

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, no objection to that.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We'll come to quite specific and concrete questions, Mr. Becirevic, but tell me first this --

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. We're just going to have an exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 133, marked for identification.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true and correct that you personally were involved in the activities to arm, train, and form the Muslim military commands and units in the villages of Sandici, Locici, Urkovici, Pervani, Kamenica, Pobrdje and Nova Kasaba?

A. Your Honours, that is not correct.

Q. Is it also true and correct that those villages are the most populous and largest part of the Bratunac municipality in which 99 per cent of the population are Muslims?

A. The local community of Konjevic Polje before the war, according to ²⁰⁵⁵⁸ the population census, numbered 5.600 inhabitants and it was one of the largest local communities in the Bratunac municipality. The only local community, in fact, which offered an organised -- organised defence to the aggressor. All the other local communities where the Muslim people were in the majority, in the space of one and a half months, were razed to the ground. That is to say, ethnic cleansing took place and during that one and a half months about 1.000 women and children were killed, and civilians.

Q. Yes, you've already said that. What I'm asking you is this -- would you please answer my question. There's no need to repeat your testimony, which does not relate to my question. So you were the head of the Wartime Presidency in Konjevic Polje but you say -- yet you say that you were not the organiser of the activities to train and establish Muslim military commands in those villages. Is that what you're claiming?

A. I'm claiming that I did not take part in any kind of training because I was an ordinary soldier in the former JNA, so that I am not a military expert in any way.

Q. I'm talking about organisation. I'm not saying that you trained them and showed them how to assemble or disassemble a rifle or anything like that or hold rifle practice.

But another question: Is it true that it was precisely you, together with this man Rahid Sabic, who brought Nurif Rizvanovic to those parts who was also a former officer and in fact deserter of the JNA who was otherwise a native of Glogova. You brought him exclusively in order to implement military training and attack the Serbs. ²⁰⁵⁵⁹

A. That's not true. We were not able to bring him in at all. What we could say is that you probably slipped him into the area, because he arrived in the month of August and he came from Tuzla with a unit to the Konjevic Polje area. Part of the unit stayed on in Konjevic Polje, whereas the rest of the unit went on to Srebrenica. So how could we have brought him in? We were under a total siege, so how would we bring in anybody from Tuzla?

Q. So you mean what you want to say that the Serbs brought him, this Rizvanovic, who brought with him 500 soldiers from all parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. They let him pass through. They let him pass over 100 kilometres of Serb territory to arrive in Konjevic Polje. I don't know what their aim in doing that was.

Q. Well, as of 1992, together with you and all the rest, he was very prominent in perpetrating war crimes and genocide against the Serbian population there, precisely this man called Rizvanovic.

A. Your Honours, that is not true.

Q. So he didn't fight in Konjevic Polje and commit war crimes against Serbian civilians in that whole encirclement?

A. He came to help his own people because he originated from Glogova and it was his aim to go back to his native region and help the people of Glogova. That was what he wanted to do.

Q. Well, he said he was from Glogova. And is it true that this man Rizvanovic, due to the power fight, clashed with Naser Oric who later liquidated him, precisely in this clash and power struggle that they had? ²⁰⁵⁶⁰ And I'm talking about the Muslim forces in Eastern Bosnia.

A. As to the details of this alleged clash between them, power struggle between them, I don't know. But Nurif Rizvanovic, when he left for Srebrenica, lost his life at the enemy lines, that is to say, the Serb front. Now, how he lost his life, I really can't say. I don't know the details.

Q. All right. If you don't know the details, I won't pursue the issue. But tell me this: Before the conflict in the Bratunac municipality, you were the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence in Bratunac municipality. And that is what it says on page 2 of your statement, paragraph 2; is that correct?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. On page 2, paragraph 4 of your statement, you speak about arming the Territorial Defence of Bratunac and the weapons they had; is that right?

A. Let me just take a look. What page and paragraph did you say?

Q. Page 2, paragraph 4 of your statement speaks about arming the Territorial Defence of Bratunac; right?

A. Your Honours, I speak about how the weapons were taken over from the Territorial Defence of Bratunac by the JNA.

Q. You say that in 1989 those weapons were removed. Did I follow you correctly? So you were talking about the year 1989 when the weapons were transferred from Bratunac. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. In 1989? ²⁰⁵⁶¹

A. The Yugoslav army collected up all the weapons and took it across the bridge, the Ljubovija bridge into Serbia. Where the weapons ended up, I don't know.

Q. Well, I assume that the JNA in 1989 was throughout the territory of the SFRY, Bratunac, Ljubovija, and any other place because it was within the borders of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

A. I didn't say anything. I just said that they collected up all the weapons and took it away.

Q. Were you the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence in 1989?

A. No, I wasn't. I told you where I was at the time and where I was working.

Q. Well, then you must know, even if you weren't in that position, you must have known that something like that -- you could have been aware only in 1990 when the Federal Presidency decided to displace the arms from the Territorial Defence to store it in the JNA barracks and depots. The Federal Assembly in full composition in 1990 made that decision, and you must have known about it. That is, to transfer the TO weapons to the JNA barracks and depots because it was safer and more secure there. Do you know about that?

A. We knew that a decision of that kind was taken and that the weapons were collected up in Bratunac. I know that because I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the weapons being taken away. So that is not being contested. You're denying that?

Q. I don't know anything about it. I'm asking you on the basis of my ²⁰⁵⁶² information, Mr. Becirevic. You worked as the defence secretary. I assume you were aware of a decision taken by the Presidency of Yugoslavia according to which the weapons of the Territorial Defence should be placed under you -- JNA warehouse protection.

JUDGE MAY: He's answered that. Move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You also say that the weapons were supposed to be transferred to the barracks of the Tuzla Corps but that the trucks in fact took the direction of Serbia; is that right?

A. I just said that during that period of time I was working in a socially owned company and that I was only 50 metres away from that particular place and that I was 10 metres away from the trucks when they loaded up the weapons and took them off.

Q. All right. Were you an escort for that weapons transport?

A. No. Why would I have been?

Q. Well, how do you know the weapons weren't taken to Tuzla but somewhere to Serbia?

A. They took the direction of Ljubovija. Where it ended up, I don't know, I can't say.

Q. Well, you're in fact saying -- you in fact say on that same page that there was a barracks in Ljubovija. You talk about that particular barracks; right? Have you ever been to the Ljubovija barracks?

A. I've never been to the Ljubovija barracks but I just said that the weapons were taken in the direction of Ljubovija, towards Ljubovija.

Q. But you say that you don't know what kind of unit was stationed ²⁰⁵⁶³ there at all; is that right?

A. I said that there was a barracks there and that it was common knowledge that it was JNA barracks.

Q. Well, that was the only army that existed in the SFRY, as far as I know, so that's no secret.

A. Well, it's not a secret, and it's not being contested either.

Q. So you didn't know what kind of unit this was nor what type and quantity of ammunition the unit had at its disposal or anything about its strength. Am I right when I say that? That particular unit in Ljubovija, that's the one that I'm referring to.

A. No, I wasn't there, so I couldn't know what kind of unit it was, how many men it numbered, but what I did see was that it was from the positions at Ljubovija, and I'm talking about 1991, that the barrels were turned and pointed towards Bratunac, and that was common knowledge.

Q. All right. We'll clear that up in due course. Now, as you say you know nothing about the unit, how come you say that in the barracks in 1991 a tank unit arrived of some kind, and prior to that you say that you know nothing about the unit or its weapons?

A. What I'm telling you is this: I saw with my very own eyes that the tanks, their barrels, were turned towards --

Q. But you say that some unit arrived. How can you know that the tanks weren't there beforehand at the Ljubovija barracks, already in place? Because you say a tank unit turned up in 1991. How do you know they weren't already there?

A. Well, reinforcements were sent from other areas to the territory ²⁰⁵⁶⁴ of Ljubovija. And once again, as I say, their barrels were turned towards Bratunac.

Q. You've shown us some documents here and you speak about the establishment of the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you go on to say that their barrels were pointed to some forces in Ljubovija -- or rather, that the Yugoslav People's Army's barrels were turned to Bratunac. And you say that the JNA assisted the Serbs. That's right, isn't it?

A. In 1991, in December of that year, the Serb Municipality of Bratunac was established, although the legal municipality of Bratunac was already in existence. A government was set up, a Serb government, although Bratunac already had the executive board of its own legal government. So all the preparations had been concluded on the part of the Serbs in Bratunac.

Q. Now, Mr. Becirevic, the preparations that were completed and so on, I'm not asking you that now. You mentioned tanks, you mentioned Howitzers, you mentioned their barrels being turned towards Bratunac. Did those Howitzers and tanks shoot at the Bratunac municipality?

A. In 1991 and in the spring of 1992, they did not open fire. But it was sufficient for the people to see their barrels turned towards Bratunac and the area around Bratunac. This instilled fear in the population.

Q. So this explanation that there was some deployment of JNA forces in the barracks in Ljubovija, which had existed for decades there, your ²⁰⁵⁶⁵ explanation is to instil fear in the population. But you say they did not shoot. So all those tanks and barrels were never used. They never opened fire towards the Bratunac municipality. Did they open fire across the Drina River at all?

A. No, they did not. But it was enough for their barrels to be turned towards Bratunac. That was a clear indication of what was in store for the population.

Q. All right. As we have Serbs and Muslims living in Bratunac, then both these ethnic groups must have been afraid of the gun barrels pointed at them. I don't think a shell can choose what ethnic group it's going to shoot at.

A. I didn't know they were shooting.

Q. Since you didn't say they opened fire, let us not dwell on it. Tell me one thing: On page 3, paragraph 8, you explained that Bratunac, according to the census in 1991, had 33.500 inhabitants. Out of that, 11.300 Serbs.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat my question?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that according to the census in 1991, there were 33.500 inhabitants in Bratunac, out of which 64 per cent Bosnians, 33 per cent Serbs, and the rest were others. Is that so?

A. Yes, that's the figure from the 1991 census.

Q. All right. On page 2, paragraph 5, you say that in end 1989 you started feeling tensions and that you - I suppose that means Muslims - ^{20566 BLANK PAGE 20567} started hearing Serb propaganda about Serbs being driven out, but you say that the real truth was that people were leaving Bratunac in search for jobs. Is that what you stated?

A. Your Honours, this is an indisputable fact that there was an attempt by the Serbian propaganda to present it as Serbs leaving Bratunac under pressure, under duress, but later events showed that they were in fact leaving for economic reasons.

Q. So you say that they were leaving in order to look for jobs elsewhere. Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 2, in the third paragraph, you say, "But Serbs held leading and managerial positions."

A. Yes. I meant public enterprises, about 20 of them that existed in Bratunac. And all the major posts, in fact 80 per cent of them, were held by Serbs.

Q. We've heard that before. You say that members of the Serb community, which was twice smaller than the Muslim community, held all the managerial positions and that Serbs were not being driven out. They were, rather, leaving in order to look for jobs elsewhere.

A. I meant public enterprises where key positions were held by Serbs in 80 per cent of all cases.

Q. You are a law graduate and you worked in the municipal administration. Do you know that, for instance, in the 1931 census 50 per cent of the population were Serbs in Bratunac, Muslims were a minority?

A. I do not know this piece of information. In 1991, I was in the ²⁰⁵⁶⁸ commission for the census and that is why I quoted that information. What was the case 50 years ago, I really don't know.

Q. All right. Are you aware that immediately after the Second World War, for reasons which this Tribunal does not find interesting --

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... 51, so he's not going to do the Second World War. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know. And I was just going to say that these are the reasons which do not meet with your interest. But I suppose that Mr. Becirevic, who says he is a law graduate, knows that in 1959, after Serbs returned to the lands from which they were driven out, their number rose to over 50 per cent of the total population in Bratunac.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that?

JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that. He says he doesn't know about these figures, and I don't see what the relevance of them is. So let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, then, from 50 per cent, over that period, their number dropped to 30 per cent but Serbs held all the key positions.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... not in evidence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know who is Sead Djordjic?

A. I do.

Q. Is it true that he was the director of Vihor enterprise?

A. I'll be happy to answer this question. We are talking about ²⁰⁵⁶⁹ socially owned enterprises which have to be distinguished from private enterprises. You are a lawyer, just as I am by education, and you must know that in socially owned enterprises such as Vihor was, it was the workers who decided who the director would be. There were both Serbs and Muslims in those posts, but only the most capable people remained, those who were able to make sure that workers got their wages.

Q. I'm only asking you to confirm this data, nothing else, because we have heard talk about some sort of discrimination against Muslims. Okay. He was director of Vihor. Was Fahro Djordjic director of the Kaolin factory?

A. I'm telling you that it was workers who put these people in those positions, because they managed to provide their wages from month to month.

Q. I'm not asking you who appointed them, the workers' council or somebody else. I'm just asking you: Were these people indeed directors of those enterprises?

A. They were, but they were only because they were capable people who ensured wages for both Serbs and Muslims.

Q. I'm sure they were. That's not what we are discussing. Was Mujo Mujicic the director of the ceramics factory? Just tell me yes or no.

A. My answer is the same. Yes; the workers decided it.

Q. Was Edo Ahmic director of the cardboard factory?

A. I was talking about public enterprises. And if you want to insist, that was the ratio.

Q. I'm also talking about socially owned enterprises. Kaolin ²⁰⁵⁷⁰ factory, the cardboard factory, all of them were socially owned. Was Cazim Avdic director of Feros?

A. That was in Srebrenica, I don't want to talk about it.

Q. Was Enver Hekic director of the Autotransport hauling enterprise?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Rifat Besic, was he director of the timber factory in Bratunac?

A. You are referring to enterprises which I --

JUDGE MAY: This is a war crimes trial on which immensely serious charges are brought. Does it matter who was in charge of the cardboard factory? What does it matter?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it matters precisely because it is insinuated here that there was some sort of discrimination against Muslims, and I took the trouble of looking up --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. But you could put it shortly. We don't need this kind of detail.

You see -- I mean, are you saying that there was discrimination against Muslims in Bratunac before the conflict broke out? Is that what you say?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as public enterprises are concerned, yes, there was. And here is an example: Out of four --

JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you to try and shorten this. Is it true, as the accused has put, that there were Muslims who were in charge of these enterprises?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, talking about socially ²⁰⁵⁷¹ owned enterprises, I answered this question. But there was discrimination in public enterprises, where all the key positions were held by Serbs.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What do you call public enterprises? You mean the street sweeping service.

A. Let me answer. There were two banks in Bratunac.

Q. Why would bank be a public enterprise and a mine isn't?

A. The mine is in Srebrenica. Let us take the social accounting service, the post office, the four key public enterprises, the SDK, the social accountancy service through which all funds were transferred. All these positions were held by Serbs.

Q. What does it matter who was the director of the post office, Serb or Muslim?

Since I enumerated these, I can enumerate more enterprises in Bratunac, not just a few, as Mr. May puts it, but almost all of them managed by Muslims. What kind of managerial or other domination of Serbs in Bratunac are you talking about? Is it true that the majority of general managers in Bratunac were Muslims, an overwhelming majority?

A. That is not true. And I have already answered. I am talking here about public companies. There were about 20 of them. And we Muslims demanded that they be split half/half after the elections in 1990, and we never managed to get that.

Q. All right, Mr. Becirevic. I know, and I understand your demand, but I considered it as an absolutely unprincipled thing. Is it true that Nijaz Dubicic was president of the municipal ²⁰⁵⁷² administration in Bratunac?

A. That's true, but it's also true that Radoljub Djukanovic was president of the executive board.

Q. I'm asking you who the president of the municipality was. I'm not asking about the executive board. And you are answering me yes, but the other one was president of the executive board.

A. That was according to the electoral results.

Q. So he was a Muslim. Was Senad Hadzic chief of police in Bratunac?

A. His name is Senad Hodzic. But the commander was, again, Mandic Nikola.

Q. You're answering me again that the commander was a Serb.

A. Because that's how it was. One was Serb, one was Muslim, the chief and deputy.

Q. And what was that in Kravica you were telling me about?

A. In Stajici.

Q. Yes. And both key people in the police were replaced after that incident, both the Serb and the Muslim.

A. Yes.

Q. So president of the police, chief of the SUP, head of the municipal administration for -- municipal section for civil defence and protection. You were the secretary, is that true?

A. I was the secretary.

Q. It boils down to the same thing. Is it true that the chief of the staff for National Defence was Sead Mujicic?

A. Let me just tell you: The executive board consisted of three ²⁰⁵⁷³ Muslims and three Serbs. Can you imagine how they operated? It was consistently obstructed. Why? Because of the SDS.

Q. Okay. Obviously it was the SDS which is to blame for everything and the SDA is not to blame for anything.

All right. Tell me now: Is it true that you in fact made up this domination of Serbs in managerial positions?

A. I didn't make anything up; It's a fact.

Q. I read you a list of Muslim names, people who were managers.

JUDGE MAY: We've now exhausted this topic. Let's move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Okay. Is it true that you made up also the economic reasons for which Serbs left Bratunac?

A. I didn't make it up. There was a conference held, attended by a thousand citizens, both Serbs and Muslims, which noted and concluded that there is no emigration of Serbs under pressure. All the emigration was due to other reasons. Every second house in my own place, Konjevic Polje, has men working in Switzerland.

Q. So they went for economic reasons.

A. It was not the Muslims who expelled them, in any case.

Q. And then you go on to say in your statement, "From the Party of Democratic Action, we tried to make certain decisions such as decisions to replace directors of certain public enterprises because all of them were Serbs after the elections." That means you decided to replace people because they were Serbs. ²⁰⁵⁷⁴

A. We were not in a position to make such decisions. It was up to the Municipal Assembly to decide. But since the Municipal Assembly had its work completely blocked, not a single decision it made after its establishment could pass without the approval of the SDS.

Q. I am just quoting. Those are the last lines on page 3: "In the course of the meetings that followed, we in the SDA tried to make some decisions such as to change some of the managers of public enterprises in town because they were all Serbs."

You tell me now that you were not making such decisions. Why did you want to replace them? Because they were no good or because they were Serbs? You told me that the only criterion for being a general manager was ability and skill, and in the same breath you tell me here in the statement that you wanted to replace them because they were Serbs?

A. It was not up to us, in any case. The Assembly was to decide on that. But the Serbs did not like it. They wanted their situation to remain on status quo.

Q. Was their main deficiency that they were Serbs?

A. No, we're not talking about the skill of a person - for instance, director of the SDK - if that man gave all the funds to the SDS.

Q. How can a director of a section for payment transactions give funds to somebody to whom these funds are not due?

A. That, unfortunately, did happen in the beginning of 1992, and documents clearly show that people who paid contributions into their pension funds, as was established after the war, had these funds diverted. These funds never reached Tuzla, where they were supposed to go. ²⁰⁵⁷⁵

Q. We have no evidence of who stole money from a branch of the SDK. This is a totally different issue. We have many other issues to discuss and time is short. If there was a thief who stole the money, it's a completely different matter.

You say that the tensions grew more intense when Serbs who passed on buses through Bratunac put up my pictures in the windows.

A. That's true. That was the case with all vehicles coming from the direction of Ljubovija. Your photograph was in the windows of all vehicles, and that caused discontent among Muslims. Some windows were shattered and so on. There were incidents.

Q. You followed the newspapers, I suppose, since you are a lawyer, didn't you? Are you aware that I made statements in newspapers, and I may have been the only politician in Yugoslavia at the time who publicly asked that his photograph not be put up anywhere because those times were already past and new times prevailed?

A. I never read anything of the sort. All I know is that your pictures were put up in Bratunac on all public buildings, institutions, in offices, whereas you were not head of state in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.

Q. Of course I was not. I'm not claiming otherwise. You say on page 3, paragraph 2 that the Serbian Democratic Party in Bratunac was set up in November 1990; is that so? Doesn't that show -- since we were trying to establish a moment ago when the SDA was set up, doesn't this show that the SDS was established five months later, after the establishment of the SDA? ²⁰⁵⁷⁶

A. That is not correct. What is referred to here are founding assembly meetings. The SDA founding assembly was on the 1st of September, 1990, and the SDS founding assembly followed immediately. The initiatives for setting up the party were in May or June.

Q. I'm only reading what you wrote on page 3, paragraph 2: "The SDS party was organised in Bratunac in October or November 1990."

A. You mean the founding assembly?

Q. Five months after the establishment of SDA. We have dates for both parties, and the difference is five months.

A. That is not so. You misunderstood. This is about a founding assembly.

Q. You said you attended the founding assembly meeting of the SDS.

A. Yes.

Q. And you only remember part of the speech held by Velibor Ostojic, who claimed that Muslims in Bosnia had a plan to connect Bosnia with Sandzak, Sandzak being a part of Serbia; isn't that so? Is that what you said?

A. Yes. What is in dispute here?

Q. Are you saying that you did not put up your own proposal for linking up with Sandzak? Do you know that the Patriotic People's League, which you must know, having been their official, had staffs for the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, including one for Sandzak and one for Kosovo, although Sandzak and Kosovo are parts of Serbia? Are these facts correct or not?

A. They're partly correct. ^{20577 BLANK PAGE 20578}

Q. Oh, partly correct. Now, tell me, since you and some other witnesses explained that actually Arkan, with his 25 men who came to Bijeljina, carried out an aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, let's leave it aside. I mean, if that is a state, that 25 men can carry out an aggression against, let's leave that aside. But do you know how many Muslims, how many thousands of Muslims from Sandzak fought in the ranks of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. I'm not aware of these figures, how many people from Sandzak came to fight on the side of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Were they sent by some kind of government from Serbia to be volunteers in the BH army?

JUDGE MAY: This has nothing to do with the witness's evidence. Now, let's move on to another topic, which is...

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 4 of the statement, you say that on the 27th of August, 1991 you personally, as secretary for the Secretariat for National Defence, hid the military conscript's records, put them away in a safe place. Why did you do that?

A. I acted upon instructions of the Ministry of Defence from Sarajevo because we received information that the Yugoslav People's Army would come to seize these records from the secretariat by force.

Q. Do you know that these records were supposed to be taken over by the army according to a decision passed by the Presidency of the SFRY?

A. That's not correct, because I would have had to receive such an order. It would have had to come to my desk or to the desk of the ²⁰⁵⁷⁹ president of the municipality or the president of the executive council. One of the three of us would have had to receive such an order, but we never did receive any such order. It was only the members of the Crisis Staff of the SDS came to my office and asked me by way of an ultimatum that I hand them over these records and it's only natural that I could not do that.

Q. At the same time --

JUDGE MAY: I'm stopping you. One at a time, please. You must remember the interpreters.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. At the same time, you were telling Muslims not to respond to call-ups, military call-ups.

A. That's correct, but that was in 1991, when the war in Croatia was on, and I knew that these young men were being sent to the front line in Croatia. I knew that personally.

Q. But you were head of the Secretariat for National Defence and you didn't want people to go into the army and so on and so forth. So you obstructed your very own work, didn't you? If you were warning Muslims not to answer the call-up, why didn't you warn the Serbs too not to answer the call-up?

A. Believe me, Your Honours, it was the Crisis Staff of the SDS that came to me and asked me by way of ultimatum to hand over the records, and they said to me, "If you Muslims don't want to wage war in Croatia, give me the records of the Serbs. They want to wage war and they want to carry out mobilisation." I could not meet such a request of the SDS Municipal ²⁰⁵⁸⁰ Staff.

Q. Very well. But at the same time, you present this activity of yours as some kind of anti-war obstruction of mobilisation and hiding military records; is that right?

A. My objective was precisely that these innocent young men do not go to fight the war in Croatia, so I stand by the fact that I acted upon instructions of the Ministry of Defence. So my objective was to stop this mobilisation.

Q. Very well. These were the instructions of the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. Yes.

Q. But at the same time, you worked on arming the Muslim population of Bratunac; is that right, Mr. Becirevic?

A. That is not correct.

Q. Well, here is a document for you. It is the centre of public security from Tuzla, that is to say, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where it says: "0303-766. By way of operative work in the field, on the 31st of August and on the 1st of September this year, that is to say, 1991, we have received several pieces of information." So you see, this is 1991. There is no war; there is no conflict; there is no nothing. This is mid-1991. "We received several pieces of information which indicate that in the municipalities of Bratunac and Srebrenica there is an increasingly present illegal procurement and distribution of weapons and ammunition as well as the spreading of rumours, misinformation, disturbing the public law and order, setting up armed patrols and barricades. We have been informed by ²⁰⁵⁸¹ our sources Dzanic Azem, member of the Party of Democratic Action in Bratunac, together with Becirevic Dzemail, secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence of Bratunac, a certain Safet, director of the veterinary station in Bratunac, with the knowledge of Kavazbasic Mirsad, president of the municipal committee of the Party of Democratic Action, Munisovic Nezir [phoen], head of the public security station in Bratunac, and other members of the leadership of this party used an official car, licence number ZV - that's Zvornik - 26200, owned by the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence of Bratunac is bringing weapons in from Sarajevo and then they are taking over these weapons from the headquarters of the Party of Democratic Action and distributing these weapons to persons of Muslim ethnicity in the territory of this municipality. So two months ago --" I don't know "24 pistols were transferred in this way, and later they were sold at a price of 15.000 dinars per piece. And then a number of persons, together with Sead Hadziabdic, owner of the Royal Restaurant, sold these weapons to Dzanic, yet another Dzanic, a Muslim, at the price of 1.500 Deutschmark in Drinjaca, municipality of Zvornik." Now, this is illegible, with a person nicknamed Taran in Konjevic Polje, a restaurant owner, also Abdic Nezad and Siranovic [phoen] --

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. You can't just read out documents at great length. The witness is giving evidence and he must be able to deal with them.

It's alleged, you see, in this document, and we'll hear where the accused got it from, but it's alleged that you, in September 1991, were introducing weapons into Bratunac from Sarajevo and distributing them. Is ²⁰⁵⁸² there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is no truth in this. From Sarajevo to Bratunac is about 145 kilometres. Imagine someone going into that kind of thing, transporting weapons from Sarajevo, where there are dozens of police patrols along the way. And whoever would transport this would be arrested, and nobody would allow oneself to do such a thing. And imagine using a small Yugo car for that. This is a small car. I never did any such thing.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, that's the way it usually is done. Civilian cars, things like that. This was a vehicle of your secretariat, and this is a document of the public security centre of Tuzla.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, please, I would like to have it admitted into evidence.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just want to say if this was their report, why didn't they stop this? Why didn't they stop this delivery? Why didn't they show the evidence and proof? These are pure insinuations. This has nothing to do with the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see the document.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let him have a look. Let him have a look at this document.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Read it. It's all there, and it's all nicely highlighted, all the things I asked you about. Since I am giving you the document in its entirety, you can read everything that it says. ²⁰⁵⁸³

A. So I answered this question. There's no truth in this, no truth whatsoever.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Groome, marked for identification?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Is this a document which the Prosecution handed over, in fact, or is it one the accused --

MR. GROOME: It was one that was handed over by the Prosecution, but I have no idea of its providence. I could investigate that for the Chamber.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have read it out exactly as it stands, Mr. May. And since there is a translation of this document, you can compare, and it's theirs.

JUDGE MAY: We'll give it a number marked for identification.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Defence Exhibit 134, marked for identification.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So, Mr. Becirevic, do you continue to claim that in the summer of 1991 you were not involved in the illegal arming of Muslims in the municipality of Bratunac?

A. It is not correct that I was involved in such efforts.

Q. All right. Is it correct that this entire farce, with the theft and concealing of military records on the 27th of August was not anti-war but it was simply aimed at opening up a new front in Bosnia?

A. That's not correct. On our part, we who hid this -- these military records, we said what our objective was. And the objective of ²⁰⁵⁸⁴ the Crisis Staff of the SDS was completely contrary to that. I spoke about that. I really don't want to go into it any further. If necessary, I can go into the details.

Q. Mr. Becirevic, since you were assistant commander for religious affairs, did you read the Islamic declaration? Have you read the Islamic declaration of Mr. Izetbegovic?

A. No, I haven't. And as far as religious affairs are concerned, religious matters, within my field of work I had a man who was strictly in charge of that. But I dealt with other matters in the unit.

Q. This obstruction of carrying out the functions -- or rather, this hiding of records and this arming of Muslims, wasn't all of that assistance to the spectre of the Ustasha movement that rose in Croatia and it is with their assistance that you actually did what you did to the Serb minority in Bratunac and in this way you ensured your supremacy?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no idea what he's talking about. Bringing up the independent state of Croatia? I mean, this was in the Second World War, as far as I know.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, wasn't this repeated in the beginning of the 1990s?

JUDGE MAY: We won't go into that sort of argument. Yes, you've got five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have an hour and 45 minutes after the break, because I examined him only for 15 minutes.

JUDGE MAY: In fact, you've got longer than five minutes. You've got five minutes until the break and then I think you've got another 20 ²⁰⁵⁸⁵ minutes. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then we didn't understand each other.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Didn't you say yourself on page 4, in paragraph 4 that you went to see the Minister of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Jerko Doko?

A. It is correct that I went.

Q. And he told you then what you were supposed to do with the records of military conscripts and how you should obstruct the army.

A. It wasn't Jerko who received me. He wasn't at work then. But I was received by Munib Bisic, his assistant.

Q. All right Munib Bisic, a Muslim, and Jerko Doko is a Croat; isn't that right?

A. These are legal representatives of the Ministry of Defence.

Q. Legal representatives. And you're a legal representative too, and you as a Muslim are the legal representative that obstructed his very own function, and he concealed the military records that was in his hands on the basis of his official duty.

A. I hid it from the Yugoslav army who wanted to take it out of my province of work, nothing else.

Q. What did the Yugoslav army want to do with these documents?

A. What was I supposed to do if they took these documents?

Q. What do you care about that? You're not the superior of the Yugoslav People's Army. As secretary for the Secretariat for National Defence in a municipality like Bratunac, you're not their superior. ²⁰⁵⁸⁶

JUDGE MAY: You must slow this down. You must both remember the interpreters.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Is it correct that you were advised when you went to the ministry that you should keep the records in a secret place?

A. I was told that these records should not fall into the hands of the Yugoslav army.

Q. All right. And why didn't you give the Serbs the documents that pertained to the Serbs only when they asked you for it?

A. Because physically this documentation could not be split up, because it was filed in alphabetical order and they came with the Yugoslav army on that day to take it away and they asked for this to be done immediately and it could not have been done immediately.

Q. All right. But isn't it true that they only asked you for their parts of the files, the records?

A. On that day, they asked so that the Yugoslav People's Army would not go back without having done anything. They said, "Give us at least the documents pertaining to Serbs." But physically it could not have been done that day.

Q. Isn't it correct that all the incidents on the 27th of August, 1991 would have been overcome only if you had given the Serbs their very own records, the records they asked for? Also, it doesn't have to do with lists only. It is --

JUDGE MAY: He can't answer that, as to what would have happened. He's answered that you couldn't split them up. ²⁰⁵⁸⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it correct that these records were not compiled according to certain lists, the way you are trying to portray it now, or rather, every military conscript has a file of his own?

A. Every conscript has a file of his own, but the files are in alphabetical order, so one could not know who is a Serb and who is a Muslim. And in this big file that weighed about 30 kilogrammes, there were about 50 or 100 military files respectively, so one file had to be looked at at a time, so this required at least seven days.

Q. How many military conscripts were there in the municipality of Bratunac, please?

A. All military conscripts, all who would serve their military service?

Q. How many of them were there? How many did you have in your records in the municipality of Bratunac?

A. I didn't count, but all the Muslims and Serbs were on this list of the municipality of Bratunac.

Q. I am not bringing that into question at all, that there were Muslims and Serbs on this list. I'm asking you about the files, the records. How many files, records, did you have in total? This is an elementary figure which you should be aware of.

A. I didn't do any counting. And believe me, I do not know this particular figure, what the overall number was.

Q. I don't believe that, that you are not aware of that. But let's proceed. ²⁰⁵⁸⁸ On page 6, paragraph 2, you say that the Serbs from Kravica and Bratunac, after the killing of two Muslims, evacuated women and children to Ljubovija because they were afraid that the Muslims would seek revenge; is that right?

A. This was staged, this moving out, because nobody was threatened by the Muslims.

JUDGE MAY: This will be a sensible moment to stop. We're moving on to another topic.

We'll adjourn, 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you were told you could have two hours. You've had one hour, 40 minutes. You can have another 25 minutes, an extra five.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And there's no possibility of extending that time, is there?

JUDGE MAY: Let us move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I'll try and make it brief.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Becirevic, would you please give me short answers, yourself. You say that you launched an attack on Kravica and that you did so because you were hungry. That's what you say on page 3, paragraph 4, of your statement. Is that right?

A. For me to give -- be able to give you yes or no answers, I have to ^{20589 BLANK PAGE 20590} actually explain a bit, expound. But as you just want to hear yes or no, I'm not going to be able to say either, give you a yes or no answer.

JUDGE MAY: Just very briefly, why -- did you attack Kravica and why did you do it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the 17th of April, 1992 -- or rather, from that date up until the 7th of January, we were under a complete siege, and it was precisely because of that complete siege we had no possibility of having any assistance in the way of food, clothing, or anything else brought in to us.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You also said that on that occasion - and I'm quoting you - you say, "We decided to set up a corridor for the women and children wishing to leave the village. Once we'd entered the village, we just came across soldiers who had decided to stay on and fight." Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me this, please: What date did you launch your attack on Kravica?

A. The beginning of January, 1993.

Q. You did that on the 7th of January, 1993; isn't that so, Mr. Becirevic?

A. Yes, that is so.

Q. Well, do you know that the 7th of January is precisely Orthodox Christmas, so you attacked the place for the Orthodox Christmas? ²⁰⁵⁹¹

A. That's how it turned out.

Q. Oh, I see. That's how it turned out, did it? Now, is it also true that in addition to Kravica, on that same day you attacked the other hamlets, Brana, Bacici [phoen], Popovici, Mandici [phoen] and so on, Popravdici, which make up an area of about 2.300 inhabitants together with Kravica, which is where the older Serb school is located, which was erected in 1864; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you attacked the Serbs on their Christmas. You say you left a corridor open for women and children and that it was just the soldiers who remained.

Now, do you know, for instance, that you slaughtered Mara Bozic, born in 1909, a lady who was born in 1909, her throat was cut; Kristina Eric, another elderly woman; Risto Popovic, born in 1920, a man; Vaso Nikolic, born in 1920; Mitar Nikolic, 1927. Those are their dates of birth. Ljubica Obacki, another woman, born in 1918; Vladimir Stojanovic, born in 1915; and so on and so forth. You killed them, you slit their throats, you slit the throats of elderly men and women, and only three soldiers were killed, only three military-able men, in fact, not to say soldiers. Men of fighting age. Is that right, or not?

A. Well, I don't know the names. I can't tell you. You can read out any number of names you like, I don't know the people.

Q. So you don't know who the people were whose throats were slit in Kravica, that they were all elderly people, men and women?

A. I don't know that that was what happened at all. ²⁰⁵⁹²

Q. All right. And is it true that in the attack, in addition to you, there was Naser Oric taking part, Zulfo Tursunovic, Ferid Hodzic, Becir Mehanic [phoen], Bajra Osmanovic nicknamed Mis [phoen] or mouse, Nedjad Bektic [phoen], Hadija Mehulic [phoen], Veiz Sabic, Nedjad Set [phoen], and so on?

JUDGE MAY: Just reading out a list of names makes it quite impossible for the witness to answer.

But more seriously, what is alleged is that -- Wait a moment. He can deal with the allegation you make. What is suggested is that, during the attack, the throats of old people were cut. Now, is there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's no truth in that whatsoever.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, there are facts and figures about all these persons killed, Mr. Becirevic.

A. I wasn't there for me to be able to have seen that with my own eyes.

Q. So you didn't participate in the attack on Kravica.

A. No, I did not take part in the attack on Kravica.

Q. Tell me this, then, please: On that same day, in addition to Kravica, did you also attack the village of Siljkovici?

A. That belonged to the area of the Kravica local community.

Q. And all that belongs to Konjevic Polje, does it not, that general area? ²⁰⁵⁹³

A. But from that place called Kravica, for a full eight months, on a daily basis dozens of women and children were killed in Konjevic Polje. So Kravica is the place from which most of the grenades, shell -- tank shells, Howitzer attacks and so on were launched.

Q. So in addition to those tanks and Howitzers, you stormed the place and slaughtered these elderly people, and Siljkovici was another place you attacked on Christmas Day; isn't that right? Is it right or not?

A. That was a military operation of the classical type, in a counter onslaught, a counterattack on the forces of the Bosnian Serbs, and quite normally this was done in military fashion.

Q. So you consider that to be military fashion, do you? All right. On the 16th of January, did you attack the village of Cosici, where you also slaughtered 15 Serbs?

A. I don't know of that village at all.

Q. On that same day, did you attack the village of Kusici and killed a further 20 Serbs there too?

A. Those villages are around the Srebrenica area. I don't know them.

Q. Did you attack Skelani and kill 13 Serbs?

A. Once again, the Srebrenica municipality, which I don't know about.

Q. So you didn't take part in that?

A. I was only in Konjevic Polje and defended Konjevic Polje. That's all.

Q. All right, tell me this, please: I'm asking you about the rest of the villages in the Bratunac area. Did you take part on the Bljeceva attack on the 6th of May, 1992? ²⁰⁵⁹⁴

A. It's got nothing to do with the free territories of Konjevic Polje. That is a local community which gravitated towards Srebrenica. So the forces from Konjevic Polje were not able to do anything of the sort because of Kravica.

Q. So you know nothing about how Kosana Zekic, an old lady in the village of Bijena [phoen] was slaughtered on the 6th of May along with three other Serbs. Radojko Milosevic was burnt alive.

A. Well, those villages are not around Konjevic Polje, so don't ask me about them.

Q. And do you know that the 6th of May is once again a religious holiday? It is St. George's Day, Djurdjevdan.

A. Let me state again they are all villages around Srebrenica and I have nothing to do with them.

Q. Did you take part in the attack on the village of Oparci on the 1st of June, 1992?

A. Never heard of the village of Oparci.

Q. And what about the attack on the village of Metaljka on the 2nd of June 1992? Did you take part in that?

A. That's Cers Gordi [phoen], Vlasenica municipality. Once again, we have nothing to do with that. No forces from Konjevic Polje at all.

Q. What about Ferid Hodzic from Cerska? Do you know about him? He completely destroyed the village.

A. I did see Ferid Hodzic during the siege of Konjevic Polje in Cerska, so I know the man. I can say I know him.

Q. Did you take part in the attack on the Rupovo Brdo village on the ²⁰⁵⁹⁵ 10th of June, 1992?

A. Once again, the Vlasenica municipality, with which I or the units from Konjevic Polje had nothing to do.

Q. All right. Who did they have something to do with, the units from Konjevic Polje? Only with the village of Kravica, nobody else?

A. Well, if you want an exact answer, they had things to do with the Milici unit, which is the Semiser [phoen] region, and in that region no Serb village was burnt to the ground. There was the Drina River there on the opposite side, so that the people they did have contact with was Kravica.

Q. So your responsibility only stretched to Kravica, to include Kravica; right?

A. If you were to look at the Konjevic Polje units and the Kravica and so on, I see no responsibility there at all.

Q. You mean the old lady and the old men you slaughtered? That's no -- you have no military accountability and responsibility for that?

A. The units from Konjevic Polje never perpetrated those acts.

Q. All right. Did you take part in the attack on the village of Ratkovici?

A. Once again, you're mentioning a village around Srebrenica with which I have nothing to do.

JUDGE MAY: You're wasting your time and ours going over these matters which are outside the witness's knowledge. If it's relevant, you will be allowed to call evidence about these matters. But it's no good trying to attack the witness with matters which he knows nothing about. ²⁰⁵⁹⁶

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, in view of the post he held and the region concerned, it is my assumption that he did know about it. The fact that he says he doesn't know about it is quite another matter.

JUDGE MAY: You've heard what he says and you're -- you are bound by his answer. He doesn't know about it. Now, let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am moving on, Mr. May, and I will prove that he had every knowledge of that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you take part in the attack on the Serbian village of Loznica on the 28th of June, 1992?

A. Once again you're asking a question about something that the units in Konjevic Polje had nothing to do with.

Q. And the village of Brezane? Anything to do with that?

A. Well, do you know how far that is from Konjevic Polje?

Q. And the village of Zagone?

A. Once again, the same answer; nothing to do with that. Konjevic Polje has nothing to do with that.

Q. All right. Did you take part in the attack on the Serbian village of Krnjici?

A. That's far away somewhere again. So my answer is the same as to your other questions.

Q. So you know nothing about the attacks on these villages. You and your colleagues in the headquarters, the staff, you didn't dovetail your actions and have anything to do with those villages? ²⁰⁵⁹⁷

A. Mr. Accused, you must understand that Konjevic Polje was a separate enclave, quite separate from the Srebrenica enclave, and it really did have nothing to do, have any contacts with them in the course of 1992, right until these areas fell, and the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica was set up.

Q. What about the village of Zalazje, an attack there when 39 Serbs were killed and slaughtered?

A. My answer is the same. Konjevic Polje is a long way away, 30 kilometres away and has nothing to do with that.

Q. How about the attack on Laducic [phoen]? Do you know anything about that?

A. Kravica separated the enclave of Konjevic Polje from the free territories around Srebrenica, so that any attempt to pass through that terrain was sanctioned, that is to say, there were ambushes set up by the Bosnian Serb forces.

Q. Did you take part in the attack on the Erzestica village on the 2nd of August when 55 houses were set alight and Serbs killed there?

A. Once again, this came under the responsibility of the Srebrenica units and we from Konjevic Polje had nothing to do physically with the village of Erzestica and the people who were there will be able to bear this out.

JUDGE MAY: Why don't you read out all the remaining attacks which you allege and the witness can deal with that, rather than this time-wasting.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. ²⁰⁵⁹⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. A moment ago you said that you had some military operations underway in Milici; right?

A. No, I didn't say that. I said we just had a defence line up there.

Q. All right. You call it a defence line. On the 24th of September, did you in fact, in the Serbian village Podravinja, kill 31 Serbs from the village?

A. The accused is once again saying the same thing. As you're not from the area, I can't answer that question. Konjevic Polje did not have a defence line towards Podravinja because, once again, that is some 30 to 40 kilometres away and is in between the forces of the Bosnian Serbs and the other side.

Q. All right, Mr. Becirevic. Could you then tell me at least how many Serbs were killed at your hand and by your hand?

A. Thank God by my hand not a single Serb was killed. Now, how many Bosniaks fell victim to the Serbs, and in Bratunac in the space of one month the figure was 1.000 women, children, and elderly persons without setting up any resistance, and that would have happened in Konjevic Polje had there not been resistance on the 29th of May, 1992 when the units of the Yugoslav People's Army, together with the paramilitary formations and local Serbs, suffered their first defeat in the Bratunac municipality. Up until then, the Serb forces came upon no resistance whatsoever and were able to perform ethnic cleansing, expel the population from those areas, and killed, as I said, 1.000 people. ²⁰⁵⁹⁹

Q. I asked you about your own responsibility and accountability and, according to my information, you are responsible for the killing of 68 civilians in Kravica on Christmas Day 1993 and 20 civilians in Donji Magasici and Bozici. Is that true or is it not, Mr. Becirevic? You didn't question or challenge Kravica. Now I'm asking you whether you're responsible for the killing of 68 civilians in Kravica on Christmas Day 1993?

A. No, I did not take part in that at all. That is not true, and I can prove where I was on that particular day. So that's got nothing to do with me.

Q. All right. And are you responsible for the killing of these detainees, amongst them Milutin Milosevic, the chief of MUP? Are you responsible for that particular killing?

A. I don't know what killing you're talking about. Milutin Milosevic led a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army and paramilitary formations in the attack on Konjevic Polje on the 29th of May, and in the fighting Milutin Milosevic lost his life. He was killed at Konjevic Polje. So nobody went to Bratunac at all to attack Bratunac. It was Milutin Milosevic who came with his units, with the units of the JNA, to cleanse Konjevic Polje of the people and to kill the people there. That's the truth.

Q. All right. And tell me this, please: As you say that he was killed in the fighting, killed in battle, isn't it true that your fighters captured Milutin Milosevic alive, that they tortured him, killed him, and left him there? ²⁰⁶⁰⁰

A. Believe me when I say that I was told that Milutin was killed in battle and that he had a loudspeaker with him at the time and that he spoke over the loudspeaker. He said, "You should kill and set fire to everything and not well-to-do houses because they're full of booty." That's what Milutin said and Milutin Berisic [phoen]. They had a loudspeaker in their hands and that's how they led the attack from the Kravica direction towards Konjevic Polje on that particular day.

Q. And do you know, for example, that in the report by Masovjetski -- that's his famous report where he says that he was in fact killed by the Serbs so as to blame the Muslims, be able to blame the Muslims for that killing. Now, who's lying? We'll leave it up to others to determine.

JUDGE MAY: I've stopped you. The witness can't answer about that report, and he's dealt with the death of this man. He's given his evidence about it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. Becirevic. In paragraph 4, page 7, you speak about an event where allegedly the JNA came to Konjevic Polje in order to disarm your Muslim forces; is that so?

A. Just let me find it. Which paragraph?

Q. Page 7, paragraph 4.

A. I didn't find it, actually, but I know what you're talking about. I know that the Yugoslav People's Army on the 27th of April in the morning came into Konjevic Polje, encircled it, and demanded a handover of all weapons. On that day I saw with my own eyes Miroslav Deronjic dressed in uniform, who had come into my village, Hrncici, asking that Muslims turn ^{20601 BLANK PAGE 20602} over their weapons to Serbs and saying that nothing would happen to them in return.

Q. I'm asking you about something in your statement, and you are now mentioning a person who was not a JNA member. He was a member of the Bratunac TO.

In the same paragraph where you say that allegedly the JNA came to Konjevic Polje to disarm your Muslim forces, you say that you were not putting up resistance because there were only a few of you men with arms.

A. We were not putting up resistance because we had nothing to put up resistance with, whereas they came with APCs and we couldn't resist such force.

Q. Okay, Mr. Becirevic. You say in the same paragraph, "The Serbs who had come on armoured personnel carriers, trucks with a huge amount of weapons, thus broke through our defences." That's what you say. "They tried to encircle the village and during that operation two of our men were killed and two were wounded. Since dark was falling, they decided to retreat." Is that what you stated?

A. Yes. That's the truth.

Q. Fine. Then explain, since you say you were not putting up resistance and that only a few of you had weapons, while saying at the same time that unbelievably strong Serb forces managed to break through your defences, how is that possible? How come they broke through your defences when they didn't even manage to encircle the village? At the same time, you were not putting up resistance and you had two men killed and 1992 men wounded. ²⁰⁶⁰³

A. I was referring to fighters who withdrew from the village when these forces came, and there was no resistance from our side.

Q. But you say they broke through your defences.

A. There were no defences. They came into those villages without encountering any resistance. Nobody fired a single round. Their only intention was to seize the weapons peacefully.

Q. Okay. You say they did not manage to encircle the village. How come they didn't manage, if you were not putting up any resistance?

A. They came into every village and hamlet on APCs.

Q. But aren't you saying that those strong Serb forces drove away their wounded on APCs?

A. Not Serb wounded. What is curious is they collected those wounded Bosniaks who had been wounded by Serb forces and they drove them to Bratunac and Ljubovija for treatment. They drove them away. That's what I was talking about.

JUDGE MAY: Your time is almost up, you should be warned. You've got two more questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. How can you claim all this about these monstrously strong Serb forces? How can you say all that you've just said and assert that in this all-out attack on Konjevic Polje you had 11 casualties, whereas these monstrous Serb forces, monstrously strong forces, had 44 wounded?

A. I was talking about the 29th of May, when we put up resistance to those strong Serb forces for the first time. First of all, it was the JNA ²⁰⁶⁰⁴ who aggressed Konjevic Polje, together with people from -- veterans from Vukovar and local forces. We put up resistance because we had seen what happened in Hranca, Glogova, in a school in a neighbouring village where 500 civilians were killed. That's why we started to put up resistance. They didn't allow these forces to come in.

Q. I'm not questioning the reasons why you fought there. You are representing the Muslim side as unarmed civilians with only a couple of men under arms, and the result, which you don't deny, is that those forces had 44 casualties, that is, four times more men killed than you did. How come those unarmed people succeeded in killing 44 soldiers of those Serb forces which were allegedly attacking you?

A. Your Honour, this is really the truth: We were attacked by five tank, five APCs. There was more support from artillery from Serb positions. Many barrels were trained on Konjevic Polje, which was defended exclusively by people armed with light infantry weapons. On that morning we were lucky enough to capture one APC, which had been on a reconnaissance mission, and we trained the barrel of this APC towards the attackers. That was the success we had scored. I think that was the first defeat suffered by the JNA in Bratunac municipality. And it was inflicted on them by these defenders who did not allow themselves to share the fate of other surrounding villages.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is the problem, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question, please.

JUDGE MAY: You've had plenty of time and you've wasted much of ²⁰⁶⁰⁵ it.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness, during your examination-in-chief you mentioned the Red Berets today, didn't you?

A. Yes, Your Honours. I mentioned them too.

Q. You then mentioned convoys coming from Srebrenica towards Tuzla.

A. Yes.

Q. You mentioned the aviation coming from the direction of Serbia.

A. Yes, on a daily basis.

Q. You mentioned about a thousand or more civilians killed.

A. Yes, over a month, in Bratunac and the surrounding area.

Q. You also mentioned 12 to 15 thousand people killed in a column of moving people.

A. Yes.

Q. But you failed to mention all that when you gave your statement on the 24th of January, 1994 and more recently this year. Why didn't you mention that?

A. The last time I was here I spoke about everything in detail. These are the facts that I presented the last time I spoke to the investigators here in The Hague.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] While Mr. Groome was questioning, I didn't make any objections, but all these things are not contained in the statement. If something is introduced under Rule 92 bis, I don't think we should go beyond that Rule. Otherwise, the cross-examination is prejudiced. That would be my objection as amicus curiae. I believe that ²⁰⁶⁰⁶ the examination-in-chief should stay within the scope of the statement provided to you and to the opposing party and not go beyond it.

JUDGE KWON: No, I don't think so. Part of this evidence was introduced by way of 92 bis, but the other part was given live.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I understand.

JUDGE MAY: The reason is that there may be something which the witness doesn't mention in his statement which may be important which he mentions when he comes here. Experience shows that this does happen. Yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree with you completely. But it does prejudice my preparation for cross-examination to a certain extent. However, I appreciate your opinion.

Q. Still, Witness, is it true that on the 1st of September, 1991 the anniversary of the establishment of Bratunac village was celebrated?

A. Believe me, I don't remember the date.

Q. But was there a celebration of the anniversary?

A. I didn't participate in that. I claim that under full responsibility. I doubt it very much that anybody could celebrate anything, because we had serious problems in Bratunac.

Q. Did you hear that in Bratunac a gathering of 10.000 people was addressed by Nurif?

A. I heard that Nurif made a speech at that rally, but I don't know anything else.

Q. Do you know that he finished with these words: "Allah Imanet and see you on the battlefield next year"? Did you hear him say that before ²⁰⁶⁰⁷ 10.000 people?

A. He is a former JNA officer. He probably had information to that effect, and that's why he made the statement. I can't make any further comments.

Q. Thank you. Regarding your statement - paragraph 4, Your Honours - you said in the first sentence: "Before the war, in the municipality there were no JNA barracks. We only had the weapons which belonged to the Territorial Defence." Is that so?

A. It's true that in Bratunac there were no barracks whatsoever and the only weapons were those belonging to the TO, which the JNA later removed from those depots.

Q. All right. You then go on to say, "That included mortars, recoilless guns," and you also mentioned here "rocket launchers, automatic rifles, and a lot of explosives such as grenades and mines." Is that so?

A. That was what the report said. I never entered those depots, but from the reports, these weapons were enough to arm a brigade. That's what I know.

Q. I'd like to ask you this first: These TO units throughout Yugoslavia, you as an educated man, a lawyer, do you know when this practice started wherein every municipality and every village received weapons of this sort?

A. I know that these weapons belonged to the people of Bratunac municipality, and it was the people of Bratunac municipality contributed funds for the purchase of these weapons. However, the Yugoslav People's Army collected the weapons and took them away. ²⁰⁶⁰⁸

Q. One thing remains unclear: You've said it happened in 1989.

A. I said that, to the best of my recollection. It was a long time before the democratic elections held in 1990, in any case.

Q. But here on page 2, paragraph 8, you talk about the elections and the establishment of the Municipal Assembly; is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were secretary for National Defence.

A. Yes.

Q. And Sabit Mujkic was commander of the Territorial Defence, and you say here that you demanded that certain decisions be made on the replacement of general managers. If this was indeed removed in 1989, did you raise this issue before the Assembly, the issue of the Territorial Defence lacking any weapons whatsoever?

A. When I took over that job, that post, those weapons were not there. Even if I had raised the issue, I knew it would not be returned by the JNA, so it made no sense.

Q. Now, please pay attention to paragraph 27. When this column of the JNA arrived, you didn't know how to cope with it. You didn't know what to do at first.

A. Do you know what weapons I'm talking about here?

Q. Just tell me, did you indeed say that you didn't know what to do at first?

A. That's true.

Q. And then somebody remembered that in the neighbouring commune there was a hand-held rocket launcher. Is that the same sort of hand-held ²⁰⁶⁰⁹ rocket launcher that everybody in the TO had?

A. Yes, that was a Zolja hand-held rocket launcher located in Cerska. On the 29th of May, 1992 we had nothing to stop these tanks with and they broke into Konjevic Polje. It was our good fortune that they torched -- that we torched a truck that was in the middle of the road and blocked their passage, and then somebody remembered that in the neighbouring populated area there was this Zolja rocket launcher.

Q. I'd like to finish quickly. So somebody remembered that in the neighbouring commune you had this weapon, and you used it to destroy the first tank, not the APC.

A. Yes. We used the rocket launcher, whereas the APC was transferred to the hill to fight the infantry.

Q. Tell me one more thing: When you removed the records of conscripts from the administration, did you also collect the entire weaponry of the Territorial Defence along with the records?

A. I didn't. All that was left in the Secretariat for National Defence when I came there were these papers, the records.

Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

MR. GROOME: Just a couple of questions. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, this attack that we're talking about now, would it be fair to say that by the 29th of May your village was completely surrounded by Serb forces?

A. Your Honours, our village was encircled from all sides until the 29th of May. All the villages in Bratunac municipality were ethnically ²⁰⁶¹⁰ cleansed. Konjevic Polje was the only one still standing, and that's why they attacked it, to finish us off, to finish what they had already done in all the other local communes.

Q. The accused put to you correctly that Mr. Deronjic was not officially a member of the JNA. My question to you is: On the initial attack on your village, did you see Mr. Deronjic in the company of JNA troops?

A. Your Honours, Deronjic was accompanying the JNA on the 27th of April when they took over the weapons and barged into our village. Deronjic was also present on the 29th of May, carrying a loudspeaker, as well as Milutin Milosevic. They were accompanying the JNA together.

Q. My question to you is: When you saw Mr. Deronjic in the company of the JNA, where precisely was he?

A. The first time they entered, on the 27th of April, Deronjic was on top of an APC when --

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions of this witness, Your Honour.

I do have some information with respect to Judge Kwon's query and with respect to Defence Exhibit 134.

JUDGE MAY: Let us allow the witness to go. Mr. Becirevic, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. It's now concluded. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome. ²⁰⁶¹¹

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with respect to Prosecution Exhibit 443, tab 8, as Judge Kwon pointed out, part of that exhibit were two letters that appear in some ways to be identical but yet there seem to be some differences, namely the stamp and the handwriting seems to be different. I just -- I do have some information regarding the providence of them, and we will be filing an exhibit, as I referenced, I believe, two weeks ago with respect to where these documents came from. Both of these documents came from the same place at the same time. They were received from the Republika Srpska National Assembly building, the archive, and they were tendered to us by Ms. Rajka Stanisic, the administrator of the Assembly and the person responsible for that archive. That was done with the consent of the RS government, and they were turned over to us on the 2nd of February, 1998.

As Your Honours will notice, the evidence record numbers of the two documents are consecutive, indicating that they were taken into possession at the same time. Members of our staff have some ideas why there are two originally executed copies, but rather than speculate on that, if the Court thinks it is an issue, we can seek to have a statement from Mrs. Stanisic, the keeper of these records, as to how there are two copies.

I would point out to Your Honours that similar documents in -- in double copies exist for the municipalities of Zvornik and a few -- and at least one other municipality, the name escapes me at the moment. But it seems to have been not irregular that two copies exist. One matter that I would point out: That Mrs. Stanisic was ^{20612 BLANK PAGE 20613} responsible for not only the Assembly archive but also the archive of the Presidency, and that may be one possible explanation as to why two copies exist.

Now, with respect to D134, that was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in November of 2002 in cooperation -- In cooperation with the Republika Srpska government, members of our staff were allowed to look at documents in the records of the Republika Srpska intelligence security service, and that document was found in that collection. The author of the document or anything else about the origination of the document, I'm unable to provide at this time.

Your Honour, just in terms of taking stock, the Prosecution did not play an intercept, tab 1 of 443. Tab 3, we ask that it be simply marked for identification. And remainder of the exhibits, 2 and 4 through 10, the Prosecution is formally tendering.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: Tab 1 is withdrawn. The remainder, of course, are admitted, one marked for identification.

Now, Mr. Groome, the next witness is Mr. Banjanovic. We will sit until 2.00. Normally one wouldn't want to start another witness. I don't know if it's a matter for you. We will admit his statement under Rule 92 bis. Of course, we're not sitting for the next week. Do you want to make a start or leave it until next week?

MR. GROOME: If it's all right with the Court, we would wish to make a start. ²⁰⁶¹⁴

JUDGE MAY: Very well, since you're under the pressure of time.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps while we're waiting, could I ask that exhibit numbers be assigned to both the 92 bis package and a binder of nine exhibits that we will use with this witness?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, certainly. I'm not sure if we've got the exhibits.

Yes, can we give them the numbers.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Rule 92 bis statement is Prosecutor's Exhibit 444, and the exhibits tab 1 to 9 will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 445.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: FADIL BANJANOVIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat now.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to state your name.

A. Fadil Banjanovic.

Q. Sir, the Chamber has accepted your verified statement, the statement you verified in front of a registrar last week -- or this week, I'm sorry, as Prosecution Exhibit 444, so I will be dealing with just particular aspects of your testimony. ²⁰⁶¹⁵ I would ask that we begin your testimony by having you look at Prosecution Exhibit 445, tab 1, and ask you, do you recognise that document?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that a summary of your educational and professional background?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Mr. Banjanovic, the Chamber has heard from other witnesses from the Zvornik municipality about some of the events leading up to the outbreak of hostilities there. I want to draw your attention to the middle of April, and I'd ask you to focus on the situation in your municipality, and would you be -- in your village. I'd ask you to begin by telling us what was the name of the village that you lived in at that time.

A. Kozluk, the municipality of Zvornik.

Q. And where was Kozluk with respect to the downtown area of Zvornik municipality?

A. Kozluk is on the Drina River in Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the road leading from Zvornik to Bijeljina.

Q. And approximately how many kilometres outside of Zvornik is it?

A. About 20 kilometres.

Q. And can you also help orient the Chamber. Approximately how -- are you familiar with the village of Celopek? And if so, where is that with respect to Kozluk?

A. Celopek is one of the Serb villages in the municipality of Zvornik, and it is on the road from Zvornik to Bijeljina, towards Kozluk. ²⁰⁶¹⁶ That's where Celopek is.

Q. Now, if I can return to my initial question to you: At the time that hostilities broke out in the Zvornik municipality by the middle of April, can you please characterise your situation in your commune of Kozluk.

A. Well, Kozluk was a multi-ethnic community, and it was quite peaceful. While, for example, in the surrounding villages, there were quite a few clashes and hostilities.

Q. What was your position within the commune of Kozluk?

A. At that time, I was an ordinary citizen.

Q. Drawing your attention to the beginning of the 5th of April, did you make a written announcement to the citizens of Kozluk, encouraging them to remain peaceful and to try to avoid confrontation?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 445, tab 2. I'm handing the original to you. A copy of this will be visible on the screens in the courtroom. Is that the announcement that you made?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that your signature at the bottom?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you just to read paragraphs 4 and then paragraph 8.

A. "We call on the local population not to further undermine trust already significantly undermined and to preserve co-existence and a life together."

Q. And if you would, paragraph 8. ²⁰⁶¹⁷

A. "We call upon all citizens to gather tomorrow at 1800 hours for a rally, a peace rally that will be held at the centre of Kozluk, which will be attended also by the citizens of the local communes of Tabanci, Malesic, Rijic, and Skocic."

Q. And did such a peace rally take place?

A. Yes.

Q. Once again, to avoid confrontation, did the -- did citizens of Kozluk surrender their weapons upon the demand of local Serb authorities of Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 445, tab 3. I'm handing -- having the original handed to you. Can you please describe for us what is this exhibit.

A. This involves the citizens of Kozluk, both Bosniaks and Serbs. 90 per cent of them are hunters who had their own hunting guns.

Q. Is that your signature on the last page of this document?

A. Yes.

Q. Without going through the specific weapons that are detailed on that document, can you just generally characterise the type of weapons that were turned over and memorialised on that receipt.

A. We handed the weapons over through a commission that consisted of a few citizens of Kozluk. The weapons were registered. They were German-made, and also there were a few pistols that were privately owned and duly registered.

Q. Sir, I will ask you some questions about whether or not an attack ²⁰⁶¹⁸ occurred on Kozluk. My question to you for this -- at this stage is simply: Was there an attack on Kozluk, and can you give us the date that that attack began?

A. There was shooting often around Kozluk, and large-scale national tensions were on the rise. Big military and paramilitary units passed through there and the situation was tense, generally speaking. During the night between the 20th and 21st, a staged attack took place against Kozluk, carried out by various formations from the surrounding places.

Q. Sir, I will ask you some detailed questions about that. But what I'm interested in now is the period of time between April and the 20th of June. During that time period, was there any outright violence in the village of Kozluk during that period of time?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe it or characterise it to the extent of that violence?

A. Well, this was pressure against the citizens themselves who were trying to live peacefully. These pressures had to do with the increasingly frequent shooting that took place. Grenades were thrown. There was intimidation. Military, paramilitary, and other units went on with incursions into Kozluk itself.

Q. Towards the latter part of May, the Yugoslav People's Army formally withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were you in a position in Kozluk to see any of those troops as they withdrew from Bosnia?

A. In that period, we were totally surrounded. Long columns of military vehicles went through Kozluk. They involved tanks, APCs, trucks ²⁰⁶¹⁹ with JNA insignia, with a five-pointed star and the flag. What we found strange was that this was no longer the Yugoslav People's Army, the one where I did my military service. In these vehicles and on these vehicles one could see men with fur hats, cockades, wearing beards, who were shouting, throwing bottles in the centre of Kozluk, stopping vehicles, and also satisfying their physiological needs on the road itself. This was not the Yugoslav People's Army where I had done my military service and where other people had done their military service. Many columns were moving along the road between Zvornik and Bijeljina.

Q. Sir, during this period of time, after the beginning of April and up until the 20th of June, could members of the Kozluk community, could they travel down to the town of Zvornik? Would they be permitted to do so?

A. No.

Q. Were they permitted to travel to Tuzla?

A. No.

Q. Was there any place that people in Kozluk could go if they wanted -- if they chose to leave Kozluk?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was that?

A. It was Loznica, and other places in Serbia, with special passes issued by the authorities in Zvornik.

Q. How was that communicated to the people of Kozluk?

A. Well, quite simply, we were surrounded. Serb guards and barricades from neighbouring villages were all around us. The Serb police ²⁰⁶²⁰ that was in Kozluk could issue passes for those citizens who wished to go to Serbia. However, major financial resources were required for that.

Q. Now, did some people from Kozluk in fact leave Kozluk and go to Serbia or through Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did there come a time when the situation surrounding Kozluk became significantly, or so dangerous that you yourself wished to leave Kozluk?

A. Yes.

Q. And were there other people in Kozluk who had a similar desire?

A. Those people who remained in Kozluk were subjected to all-out pressure. Most people wanted to leave Kozluk peacefully.

Q. Was it your intention to permanently leave Kozluk or leave until the security situation stabilised and it was safe to return?

A. We wanted to leave temporarily because we were totally surrounded, unarmed. We had surrendered our weapons and our life was in danger. Some people had already been killed in Kozluk.

Q. You've described the village as coming under attack between the 20th and the 21st of June. I'd ask you to describe the situation in Kozluk between the 20th and the 25th of June.

A. The situation was disastrous. One could no longer speak of co-existence, tolerance, because long columns of vehicles were passing through the village. There was shooting coming from all sides. The frontline was nearby, so paramilitary formations often came to Kozluk wanting to take away younger persons and to commit other crimes. The situation was unbearable. ²⁰⁶²¹

Q. I'm going to draw your attention to the morning of the 26th of June. On that morning, were there vehicles -- military vehicles positioned in the area of Kozluk?

A. When I got up in the morning, I saw a large concentration of people in the centre of Kozluk, and I saw a large number of military vehicles.

Q. Can you describe what types of military vehicles you saw.

A. In the centre of Kozluk itself, three tanks were deployed. There were several military personnel carriers, trucks, and all of this was in the centre of Kozluk, near the culture centre, and the barrels were aimed at houses where people lived.

Q. Do you know two men by the name of Branko Grujic and Jovo Mijatovic?

A. Brano Grujic was the mayor of the municipality of Zvornik and he was supposed to be the mayor of all citizens, Brano Grujic was. Jovo Mijatovic was our member of parliament. He was elected by all of us and he was in the higher authorities.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Grujic, is he also called Branko, rather than Brano?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We know him as Brano Grujic.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Were you summoned to a meeting with these two men on the 26th of June, 1992?

A. Yes. A Serb policeman came to pick me up, and he took me to the police station in Kozluk. ²⁰⁶²²

Q. Can you summarise for us what was said to you at the meeting with these two men.

A. When I came to the police station in Kozluk, in the police there were several local policemen, there were a few men in uniform, in military uniform, and I saw the mayor, Brano Grujic, and Mijatovic, the MP.

Q. Can I ask you to focus for the moment on what exactly did they say to you during the course of that meeting.

A. It was not a meeting. Quite simply, Brano Grujic said to me that "Within 60 minutes I have to gather together all the people and that we have to leave Kozluk urgently." I asked him, "Go where?" And he said that we would be going towards Serbia. I asked him -- I mean, we had no vehicles, we had no fuel, and he said to me that everything was ready and that within one hour's time everything would be in the centre of Kozluk; the buses and trucks.

Q. Now, you've said that he said "everyone." Did he literally mean every person living in Kozluk?

A. This order applied exclusively to the Bosniaks.

Q. And did he mean literally every Bosniak living in Kozluk?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you --

JUDGE MAY: Just -- we are a bit past time. When you get to a convenient moment, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Just one more question, Your Honour, I think would be a good place to break.

Q. Can you just briefly describe what was going on in Kozluk at the ^{20623 BLANK PAGE 20624} time that you were meeting with them. When you returned to where you lived in Kozluk, can you describe what was happening in the village.

A. Next to every house there were two or three military personnel standing there. Kozluk has more than 1.000 houses, so there were more than 1.000 soldiers, or rather, military persons, belonging to the police or soldiers in military uniforms, and a large number of people generally wearing different types of uniforms, with masks on their heads, gloves on, and these were in fact paramilitary units. And they pushed the people back like sheep towards the centre of Kozluk. They shot, they set fire to certain houses and facilities, and in the process they wounded several of the local people. I realised that this was no peaceful exit. We were becoming hostages.

MR. GROOME: Thank you. I'll continue my examination a week from Monday.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Banjanovic, we have to adjourn now because it is the time when we do adjourn. We are not sitting next week as a court, the reason being that we have allowed the accused more preparation time next week. That's the reason that we are not sitting. I'm sorry that your evidence has been broken up and you will have to come back. But would you be back, please, on Monday week to continue your evidence. During this adjournment and any others there may be, don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over and don't let anybody speak to you about it. That includes members of the Prosecution team. Although, you can, of course, speak to them about your travel arrangements and the like. ²⁰⁶²⁵ We'll adjourn.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

the 19th day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.