Milosevic Transcript 2003-05-22

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Thursday, 22 May 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are just a few preliminary matters I would ask to address the Chamber in private session, if I may.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁰⁹⁹¹ Pages 20991-21001 - redacted - private session

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: I have one announcement to make about hearing times, and we hope this won't cause inconvenience. It's become necessary to rearrange dates in early June. We will sit, there will be a hearing day on the 2nd, Monday the 2nd of June, but not Friday the 6th. As I say, I hope that doesn't cause inconvenience.

MR. GROOME: It doesn't, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: It doesn't. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-161

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure if the Chamber would want, but I would offer to the Chamber, if the Chamber wants, for me to make any ²¹⁰⁰³ inquiries from the witness about the matters we've just discussed regarding the waiver.

JUDGE MAY: It may be more straightforward at the moment to deal with the rest of the evidence and then you can reconsider that position. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'd ask we begin your testimony by having you see tab 1 of a new exhibit.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask if we could assign a number to this package of 14 exhibits.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecutor's Exhibit 450.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 450, tab 1, and my question to you, I'd ask you to take a look at the B/C/S version and ask you, is that your name on the top line of that exhibit?

A. Yes.

Q. And does that document accurately reflect your work and professional experience?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you. I'd ask that that document be tendered under seal.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to help orient the Chamber to some of the people you will testify regarding. I'm going to ask you if you know certain people, and I will ask you to tell us in a sentence or two who these people are. The first person I would ask you to describe for us is a person by the name of Petar Mihajlovic. Do you know who he is? And if ²¹⁰⁰⁴ so, tell us who he is.

A. Yes, I do know Mr. Petar Mihajlovic. He was an employee of the Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs.

Q. How about a person by the name of Zdravko Ljubinkovic?

A. Yes, I know Mr. Zdravko Ljubinkovic as well. He's a businessman in Ljubljana.

Q. A person by the name of Predrag Jesuric.

A. Yes, I do know Mr. Predrag Jesuric. He was head of the SUP in Bijeljina. I think he's still working there in the SUP of Bijeljina.

Q. The person by the name of Branko Popovic, also known as Marko Pavlovic.

A. Yes, I met Mr. Marko Pavlovic as well at the beginning of the war in Zvornik.

Q. And what position, if any, did he have in Zvornik?

A. At the time, he held the position of the commander of the Territorial Defence of the municipality of Zvornik.

Q. By what name was he known in Zvornik during the spring of 1992?

A. He was known under the name of Marko Pavlovic.

Q. Did there come a time after that when you learnt that his real name was Brano Popovic?

A. Yes. I learnt that his name was Branko Popovic and that he lives in Sombor.

Q. Now I'll ask you about a person by the name of Aleksandar Sekanic.

A. Yes. He was Marko Pavlovic's assistant. He comes from the village of Bilosevac in Bijeljina municipality. ²¹⁰⁰⁵

Q. The next person I'd ask you about is Ratko Vidovic.

A. Yes. Mr. Ratko Vidovic is chief of the Department for Internal Affairs in Mali Zvornik.

Q. A person by the name of Dragan Spasojevic.

A. Dragan Spasojevic was the chief of the traffic department in Veliki Zvornik, municipality of Zvornik.

Q. Fadil Mujic.

A. Fadil Mujic was the chief of the crime service in the SUP of Zvornik municipality.

Q. A person by the name of Rade Kostic.

A. Rade Kostic was a police commander in Beli Manastir.

Q. Did you ever see the car that Rade Kostic would drive in?

A. Yes. It was a jeep with "M" plates, meaning the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Serbia.

Q. Can I ask you to describe what do you know about the relationship between Rade Kostic and Marko Pavlovic.

A. Their relationship was such that they had a private conflict, and Marko Pavlovic told me that Rade Kostic was looting in the territory of Baranja, and he once brought an anonymous letter allegedly written by citizens from the area. And Rade Kostic said that he had information that Marko Pavlovic was looting in the territory of Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. I want to ask you now about a person -- I want to ask you now about a person by the name of Stevo Radic.

A. Stevo Radic was in the local authorities of Zvornik municipality, ²¹⁰⁰⁶ in the municipal authorities.

Q. And now about a person by the name of Marko Pejic.

A. Marko Pejic was the deputy to the commander of paramilitary units known as the Tigers.

Q. Now, during the course of your travels in Serbia, did you ever have occasion to see vehicles belonging to Arkan's Tigers?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How is it that you were able to identify them as belonging to that particular organisation?

A. Because they had the emblem of a Tiger on them.

Q. Are you familiar with where the headquarters of this organisation was?

A. Yes. It was in Ljutica Bogdan Street, next to the Red Star stadium, in the house of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see armed personnel outside that house?

A. Yes, I did. There were armed men guarding the house there.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to a person by the name -- I'm sorry, before I leave Mr. Pejic; was he also known by another name?

A. His nickname was Peja.

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to a person by the name of Vojin Vukovic. Are you familiar with that person?

A. Yes. I heard him -- I saw him in passing maybe two times. He had his own group of armed men.

Q. Do you know the name of that group? ²¹⁰⁰⁷

A. Yellow Wasps, and they were in Zvornik. Their name was Yellow Wasps.

Q. Now, Vojin Vukovic, was he also known by an alias or another name?

A. His nickname was Zuca, The Yellow One.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to some well known members of the Serbian MUP, and I would ask you, can you describe for the Chamber who was Obrad Stevanovic.

A. Obrad Stevanovic was the head of the police department in the Secretariat of Internal Affairs, and later he became assistant minister.

Q. Radmilo Bogdanovic.

A. Radmilo Bogdanovic was the Minister of Internal Affairs in Serbia.

Q. Who became the Minister of Internal Affairs after Radmilo Bogdanovic?

A. After Radmilo Bogdanovic, Mr. Zoran Sokolovic became Minister of Internal Affairs.

Q. And finally with respect to the Serbian MUP, I would ask you about a person by the name of Mile Puzovic.

A. Mile Puzovic was the head of the Department for Frontier Affairs and Foreigners, aliens.

Q. The last name that I would ask you to describe whether you know this person is a person by the name of Tomica Raicevic.

A. Tomica Raicevic was an official in the government of the Republic of Serbia.

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to the relationship between the federal MUP and the Bosnian Serb MUP. Were you aware of a ²¹⁰⁰⁸ relationship between these two organisations?

MR. GROOME: I draw the Chamber's attention to paragraph 43.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was familiar with that relationship.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Is that something you can describe for the Chamber at this point in time?

A. The relationship was such that the federal MUP had the -- adopted the position that it should assist the leadership in Republika Srpska. They had a coordinator, and they frequently held meetings.

Q. I want to now ask you some questions or draw your attention to Eastern Bosnia. During the spring and summer of 1992, did you have occasion to travel frequently in the area of Eastern Bosnia?

A. Yes. I travelled very frequently; every three or four days.

Q. Can you describe the municipalities which you frequented during that period of time.

A. In Serbia, I frequented Ruma, Sremska Mitrovica, Sabac, Loznica, Mali Zvornik, Ljubovija, Bajina Basta, Uzice. And in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bijeljina and Zvornik.

Q. I want to draw your attention to Bijeljina. During the course of your travels there, did you come to learn about Arkan's presence in that municipality?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you tell us the basis of how you learnt that information.

A. I came to see [redacted]who have houses at the ²¹⁰⁰⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁰¹⁰ entrance to Bijeljina in -- coming from the direction of Bogatic municipality. When I arrived, I was told that the war had started in Bijeljina the previous night.

I couldn't reach the centre of town. I stayed with my brothers that evening. I heard reports that there were some troops close to Bijeljina. When I went towards Serbia, I was told that they were located on the road between the village of Popovi and the crossing at Drina across which there was a raft, like a small ferry. And not far from the road I noticed some men there, and I came across the army, and I asked them, "Whose army are you?" And they said, "Can't you see that we are the Serbian army?"

In front of the army a gentleman came who introduced himself as a major by the name of Marko Pejic. I stayed there for a while and then I went on to Belgrade.

Q. Sir, I would just remind you, in an effort to protect your identity, it may not be necessary to mention the specific relationship that you have, specific familiar relationship to some of these non-essential people. I will be asking the Chamber to redact that reference but remind you that, unless it's necessary, please don't express these familial relationships.

MR. GROOME: I would also ask at this time that Prosecution tab 2 be placed in front of the witness. This is an exhibit that I anticipate I will use during different times of his testimony. I would ask that it be left on the desk in front of him.

Q. Sir, I want to ask you a few specific questions about your ²¹⁰¹¹ observations in Bijeljina. The place where you met this Peja, can you describe, was there any accommodation set up in that area?

A. Yes. There were quite a number of men there. There were tents. There was a generator to produce electricity, and I saw two wounded men sitting there. And he said that they were brave fighters who were suffering and waiting patiently for a helicopter to transfer them to the hospital in Belgrade.

Q. Sir, the tents that you saw there, based on your experience, what capacity or how many people could be accommodated in the tents that you observed at that location?

A. About a hundred men.

Q. And to be clear, the location where you made these observations, what republic was that in?

A. In the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Between the Drina River and the first settlement, called Popovi.

Q. Did it appear to you that the tents and the generator and the other things that you saw there had been set up very recently or had been there for some period of time?

A. It was night-time, and I really couldn't say. They were dug in a little bit because the ground was not level, so certainly a couple of days prior to this.

Q. Was there something about the car that you were driving on this night that you believe allowed you to drive in and out of that location?

A. Yes. I had official registration plates, and that certainly helped, because if I had had civilian registration plates, there would ²¹⁰¹² have been problems for me.

Q. You've testified about seeing some wounded men there. Was any statement made to you about what was going to happen or what was being done for those wounded men?

A. Yes. I saw two wounded men, and their commander said that they were brave, that they were suffering quietly and that they were waiting to be transported by helicopter to Belgrade.

Q. Prior to you leaving this scene, did any helicopter arrive at this location?

A. No, it didn't. It was night-time, about 2200 hours.

Q. Did there come a time later that you saw a picture of this Peja who you've described in a helicopter?

A. Yes, I did, with a singer of light music. He was also wearing a uniform.

Q. The helicopter depicted in this photograph that you saw, was it a private helicopter?

A. It was a military helicopter, a Gazelle.

Q. During this time period, how many times did you go into the centre of Bijeljina?

A. I was in the centre of Bijeljina twice during that initial period.

Q. I'd ask that we talk about each one separately. Can you describe for the Chamber your best recollection about your first visit. When was the first visit you made to Bijeljina during this time period?

A. The first time I went was about three or four days later - I don't know exactly - and I reached the centre. There were troops lined up which ²¹⁰¹³ were being reviewed by Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic. I heard that in the youth centre some people had come from the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Fikret Abdic and Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, and that they were talking there at the time. I stayed for a while. I didn't see them. I didn't see Mr. Abdic or Biljana Plavsic. That was my first visit.

Q. I want to ask you a specific question about the people -- about the soldiers that you say you saw lined up. Approximately how many, and did they appear to be all under the command of Arkan?

A. There were about 200 soldiers, and they were all under his command. They were well equipped, well dressed, wearing modern uniforms. He too was in uniform. And he reviewed them, and they were preparing some kind of a military review.

Q. This review that you are describing, was it more in the nature of a simple roll call or was it more in the nature of some type of ceremonial presentation of these troops?

A. Yes. It was a ceremonial presentation for somebody who was due to come and inspect the troops.

Q. While you were present in Bijeljina this time, was there a particular story with respect to Arkan that was being spoken about very widely among the people of Bijeljina?

A. Yes. Everyone was talking about Arkan as a great soldier, how capable his unit was. They spoke in the village that they were unbelievably well trained and equipment.

Q. Was there a discussion about an event at that occurred between Arkan and a commander of the garrison, the JNA garrison, in Bijeljina? ²¹⁰¹⁴

A. Yes. The story was that Mr. Arkan had entered the barracks and slapped the garrison commander. He had a rather unusual surname. And that he ordered that no troops could leave the barracks and come out of the compound.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to your second visit to Bijeljina. Can you approximate for us your -- when that was.

A. My second visit was a little later. Again, on the square there was a review of troops being carried out by a man known as Mauzer. There were about 500 soldiers lined up. There were also a large number of citizens seeing the soldiers off, who got into the bus and went off in the direction of Brcko.

Q. These people, these 500 that you're referring to, were they armed?

A. Yes. They were all armed, and they were also wearing military wartime uniforms.

Q. Do you know what the purpose of these 500 was for going to Brcko?

A. They said that they were going to defend Brcko.

Q. Now, during this second visit, without telling us the identity or the relationship to you of the person involved, were you asked to carry a Muslim family out of Bijeljina?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Why were you asked to do that?

A. [redacted].

Q. What was the family afraid of?

A. They were afraid -- actually, there were individual incidents where people had been killed. ²¹⁰¹⁵

Q. What was the ethnicity of the people that you were asked to bring out of Bijeljina?

A. They were Muslims.

Q. And did they fear being killed because they were Muslim?

A. Yes.

Q. How is it you were able to carry this family out of Bijeljina without being stopped?

A. I had a vehicle with official licence plates, so I wasn't stopped.

Q. And where did you bring them to?

A. I took them to Belgrade.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to Zvornik. Did you go to the municipality of Zvornik during this time period?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you please describe for us when it was you first went to Zvornik during this time period.

A. I went to Mali Zvornik first, and it was on the evening when the war broke out, a part of Zvornik, and the settlement was called Karakaj, in fact.

Q. And can you describe your observations of Karakaj at that time.

A. I noticed in Karakaj -- or, rather, I saw Mr. Marko Pejic once again, and he was in a textile factory over there. And up on the first floor there was a sort of production hall, and he had his headquarters there. And there were lots of soldiers coming and going up in front. They were going off somewhere else, I don't know where. And at the time that I arrived, I heard a piece of information according to which Fadil ²¹⁰¹⁶ Mujic had been captured. And some people ran past me -- two soldiers, in fact.

Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but could I ask you to move your chair a little bit closer to the desk. Apparently they're having difficulty picking up your voice on the microphone.

And, sir, let me ask you a few more specific questions before you move on. Did you eventually learn how Peja came to be in Zvornik?

A. I was told that they were brought in by a gentleman from the local authorities in Zvornik and they were paid, being paid for that.

Q. And who is the person who told you that they were being paid?

A. People from the local leadership of the Zvornik municipality told me about that.

Q. I'd ask you to say their name or, if you're unable to, with the Court's permission I would ask you to refer to them by Prosecution Exhibit 450, tab 2. Can you tell us the number next to the name of the person who told you this information. Can you refer to the person who told you this information by the number on tab 2.

A. Yes. He's under number 9 and number 12.

Q. Could I ask you to tell us specifically what number 9, the person next to number 9, what he told you about the circumstances surrounding Arkan or Peja coming to Zvornik.

A. This individual told me that they had personally gone to Bijeljina and taken 400.000 German marks there, that that was the sum that the commander of the Tigers had asked for, and that he handed over the money. Later on, it was rumoured that he didn't give 400 but 250 and that he left ²¹⁰¹⁷ 150 -- kept 150 for himself.

Q. Now, I want to ask you about the conditions at the border between Serbia and Bosnia at this time. Were you able to see whether or not there were any checkpoints manned by members of the Serbian MUP?

A. On the Serbian side there weren't any. The checkpoints hadn't been set up yet. However, there were some on the other side. On the Bosnian side there were checkpoints.

Q. Who manned the checkpoints on the Bosnian side?

A. They were manned by some soldiers. And there were people wearing police uniforms as well, as well as people from the various paramilitary units.

Q. You've identified three different groups. Would you clarify for us, are you saying that these three groups were intermingled in this function or they were manning separate checkpoints?

A. Each of them were separate. Some held the depth, some were at the entrance, others in the rear. There were quite a few people who had been mobilised there too wearing uniforms of the old JNA army, the reservists.

Q. Did there come a time when checkpoints were established on the Serbian side of the border?

A. Yes. A little later on, the checkpoints were set up there too on the side of Serbia. And the task was to prevent looting and passage with long rifles and uniforms that did not belong to the state of Serbia.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see paramilitaries on the Bosnian side of these checkpoints, at these border controls, preparing themselves to cross into the Serbian side? ²¹⁰¹⁸

A. Yes. They would strip and put on sports gear; trainers, tracksuits. And I'm sure they did cross over at times. That's what was rumoured. They were said to take -- be taking the war booty back into Serbia.

Q. On the occasions that you saw them changing their clothes, did you see what they did with their weapons?

A. I don't know where they left them. Probably with their units. But they had short-barrelled weapons.

Sometimes what happened was that they would be searched, and then the people conducting the search would find weapons in the boots of their cars.

Q. Are you aware of any occasion on which some of these people who weapons were discovered on in the boots of their cars were taken into custody?

A. Yes, people were detained and their weapons confiscated.

Q. Would that have been a routine occurrence?

A. Yes, it would happen on a routine basis until permanent checkpoints were established where the police and the army would join together to prevent individuals crossing. If they would find somebody wearing police uniforms, then it would be the military police who would take them into custody. If not, then it would be the regular soldiers, the regular army who would do this.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to this first time you were in Zvornik, and in particular to the small metal bridge in Zvornik of the several bridges or the two bridges there. Can I ask you to describe what ²¹⁰¹⁹ you observed on that bridge during your first visit.

A. Two bridges.

Q. Can I ask you to describe your observations about the smaller, the iron bridge on your first visit to Zvornik during this time period.

A. I passed through Mali Zvornik, and getting off the bridge, a mass of citizens had gathered together, mostly women and children. They were in a panic. They were screaming. And I heard them saying, "They're killing over there." And they would turn to the left and went -- go into the settlement on the Serbian side.

Q. I want to ask you -- I want to ask you to look at the list, tab 2 of 450, Prosecution Exhibit 450, and draw your attention to the person whose name is marked by the number 10. Did you make contact with this person after your arrival in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you describe for us what this person told you about what was happening in Zvornik?

A. I called up on the phone the main boss - and I don't see his name on the list here - and I talked to him. After several conversations, because we were agreeing about something, the other gentleman under number 10 came on the line and said that he didn't know where his boss had gone to, and he told me that Zvornik had been attacked and that Zvornik had almost been emptied of its citizens, and that he was alone, left alone in the building he worked in, and that he didn't know what was going on either.

He said that there were four soldiers that had been taken into ²¹⁰²⁰ custody and were in detention. I asked who they were and he said, "Well, I don't know who they are either. They have several different documents on them, several different party membership cards." And I said, "Well, what parties?" And he said, "Well, they have ID cards belonging to the Radical Party." And then I told him once again that he should come over to me and that I would guarantee that nothing would happen to him. And he said to come over where, because the bridges were blocked. And I told him to go to the hydroelectric power plant.

Q. Sir, did you agree to remain in close contact with this person over the course of your time in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. During this initial period when you went to Zvornik, how long did you stay there?

A. I stayed there two days and two nights.

Q. Did there come another time when you saw Peja during this trip to Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Where was that?

A. The first time was when I saw him at his headquarters, and the second time was several days later when he came to report that the town of Zvornik was a free town.

Q. Are you familiar with the Alhos factory? That's A-l-h-o-s.

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And for what purpose was that factory used during this time period? ²¹⁰²¹

A. During that time period, it was where the command, the headquarters of all those units was, all the units that were stationed in Zvornik.

Q. Did there come a time when you came to learn that number 10 on tab 2, that person, was arrested?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you describe the circumstances under which you learnt that.

A. When I went up the stairs of this Alhos headquarters building, I heard two soldiers running down the corridor, going past me, and saying that Fadil Mujic had been captured. And I remembered where he had been, so I went up to my car quickly, rushed after them. They drove fairly quickly, and they came to the door. I was right behind them, and I said, "Guys, this is Serbia, there is no war going on here. Go back to where you came from." They looked at each other and in fact returned. They didn't succeed in seeing Fadil.

I entered. I was a little angry with Fadil, actually, and took him back to the hotel again where he waited for me, and the next day, I took him to the place from which he went abroad from.

Q. Did there come a time when there was a discussion about what was going on in Sepak?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And can you summarise for us, what was the concern or what was being said about what was occurring in Sepak?

A. Yes. Mr. Pavlovic told me that I should protect -- that I was protecting Fadil and that his Sepak was armed to a great extent and that ²¹⁰²² it was only a question of time when they would attack the surrounding villages. Fadil said to me - and I believed him - that that was not true and that he had been there two days before and that he didn't believe in anything of that kind.

I told Pavlovic this, and he suggested that if that was indeed so, we should all go there together with Fadil and convince ourselves that that was actually so.

So we went in the evening, and that is why we postponed taking Fadil away. We postponed it by one day. We went there, but I myself didn't enter the village because Fadil told me not to. Marko Pavlovic went off, and so did Fadil and another friend of mine, and I myself and another gentleman stayed, that is to say number 9 on this document, stayed behind, did not enter the village.

When I convinced Marko -- actually, they had reached an agreement that nobody would attack anybody and that they would hand over the weapons they had, and I just heard about what happened later on, several days later.

Q. Sir --

A. And that is that those people had left all together to Loznica.

Q. Sepak, is that a village in the municipality of Zvornik?

A. Yes, it is a village in the municipality of Zvornik.

Q. Can I draw your attention now to Marko Pavlovic, and ask you, when was the first time that you met Marko Pavlovic?

A. I met Marko Pavlovic for the first time the day after the war had started. And he introduced himself and said that he was a native of the ²¹⁰²³ area around Zvornik, the Sekovici municipality, and he showed me his ID card.

Q. Were you able to see where that ID card was issued?

A. The ID card was issued in the SUP of Sekovici.

Q. And what was the name on the ID card?

A. The name was Marko Pavlovic.

Q. Was this an ordinary civilian identification card or was it belonging to any type of government organisation?

A. It was an ordinary ID card, the type that all citizens carry with them.

Q. After your first meeting with Marko Pavlovic, did he show you a document which described his official capacity in the municipality of Zvornik?

A. Yes. Sometime later, he showed me a document saying that he had been appointed chief of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to Mr. Sekanic. You testified earlier that he was Marko Pavlovic's assistant or deputy. Could you tell us in a little more detail what his role and responsibilities were in Zvornik at that time?

A. He was in command of a group of people who had been mobilised from the surrounding parts. And on one occasion, my brother was actually mobilised, so I went to see where he was, and I asked him who his commander was, and he said the commander was in the field. The commander came a little later and I said that my brother was not capable of doing military service, he wasn't military fit, and he said, "Well, take him ²¹⁰²⁴ home, then." And that's what I did. I took him home.

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁰²⁵

[redacted]

Q. Are you able to say whether it was before or after the end of May 1992?

A. It was sometime during that period. Perhaps the end of May or beginning of June.

Q. Did you become aware that both Sekanic and Marko Pavlovic were involved in the transportation of weapons?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe what you know about that.

A. Sekanic told me that he was astounded at how Marko Pavlovic was able to enter the barracks at any time at all; during the night or whenever.

Q. When he used the word "barracks," what did you take that to mean? What type of barracks?

A. They were military barracks.

Q. And what quantity of weapons was he describing to you they were able to get?

A. Well, they were taken in trucks, truckloads.

Q. Were there other people in Zvornik that were also involved in the transporting of weapons?

A. Yes. The person under number 9.

Q. And anyone else?

A. No.

Q. Can you describe what you know about number 9's involvement in the transportation of weapons. ²¹⁰²⁶

A. He said that he had gone earlier, before the war began, and that he was with another person. Let me just see if his name is on this list.

Q. I would ask you to only refer to them by number if it's essential to protect your identity.

A. Yes. No, the person isn't on the list.

Q. Are you able to say their name in open session?

A. Yes. Well, you mentioned him at the beginning. It was Rade Kostic, but I can't see his name here.

Q. And what was his involvement in this transportation of weapons?

A. Well, person number 9 said he had gone to see him over there and that he gave him a truckload of that.

Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with somebody, a member of the SPS party, with respect to what you saw in Zvornik?

A. Yes, there did.

Q. Who was it that you spoke to?

A. That person is number 2 on the list.

Q. Why did you choose number 2 on this list to go and tell about what you had seen in Zvornik?

A. We were good friends.

Q. Did you ask him to convey your observations to anyone else?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you please describe them.

A. He said that in the evening, Mr. Nikola Sainovic would come to see him and that it would be a good idea if I came too, and that's what I did. I went there that evening and was in the house of number 2. ²¹⁰²⁷

Q. And did you inform Nikola Sainovic about your observations in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did. I said that the civilians were under threat there quite a lot and that some illogical things were going on generally down there.

Q. Your -- what was your ultimate intention behind speaking to these two men about what you saw in Zvornik?

A. Well, I had expected them to convey this to the top leadership, nothing else, so that they should know what was going on.

Q. Can you be more specific about who you mean by the top leadership?

A. I thought that the president would learn about it as well, Milosevic, because they had occasion to tell him that.

Q. Can you give us your best recollection as to when you had this conversation with Nikola Sainovic.

A. This was in April 1992, several days after the events in Zvornik.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, would that be a convenient place to take the morning break?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-161, could you remember to not speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m. ²¹⁰²⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁰²⁹

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'd like to now draw your attention to several days after the conflict broke out in Zvornik, and I want to draw your attention once again to the Alhos factory. Did you attend --

JUDGE MAY: That's the textile factory, is it, that was referred to, Alhos?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. Did you go to that place once again?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you describe for the Chamber how it was you came to go to that place and for what purpose.

A. I was going there, in that direction anyway, to see where my relatives were, and someone from the local authorities told me that there was a meeting in Alhos and that I should go there if I could. So I went there. There were tables lined up in the conference hall up there. Downstairs, there were some soldiers moving around, roughly platoon strength, not more. I saw that the commander of one group was Zuco, the commander of another someone called Pusula, and a third by one of those mobilised people.

I went upstairs. There were people sitting around the tables, and at one point a gentleman in uniform, the uniform of the army of Yugoslavia, walked in. In front of him, Major Pejic reported to him that the town of Zvornik had been liberated, and he said, "Major Marko Pejic reporting," and this gentleman responded, "No, I'm sorry, Lieutenant ²¹⁰³⁰ Colonel Marko Pejic." And he said, "I understand, Colonel." I may have commented ironically, saying, "Colonel?" He gave me a glance and said, "No, only one person here can be a colonel."

He was asked to stay. There were some refreshments and some drinks, non-alcoholic drinks. He said that he didn't have time, that he had a lot of work to do in the field. He didn't sit down. He stayed for a couple of minutes, and then Mr. Pejic quickly went to pick up the phone --

Q. Sir, if I can just interrupt you there and ask you some detailed questions prior to this next area that you're about to talk about. The last few sentences of your testimony, you're referring to a person, you're saying "he," and "he had a lot of work to do." Who is the "he" that you're referring to?

A. He was Colonel Milosevic.

Q. Now, approximately how many people altogether were at this gathering or this meeting?

A. There were, I'm sure, at least 30 people. There were the commanders of these various units, then there were some people from the local leadership, then there was Colonel Milosevic with some four members of his escort.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to tell us the names of people that you recall being there. I'm going to ask you first to start with -- you say commanders of various units. Can I ask you to tell us the names of the commanders, if you know, or of the units that they commanded.

A. Yes. There were several commanders that I didn't know, but I do ²¹⁰³¹ know two of them. There was commander Vojin Vuckovic, then there was a commander whose wartime rank was colonel. They said he was somebody called Pusula, a local commander. And I didn't know any other commanders. I only knew the people who had been mobilised. I knew many people that I saw in front of Alhos.

Q. Sir, of the units that you didn't know the commanders, did you know the name of the units themselves?

A. I don't know the names of those units, no.

Q. Now, with respect to the other people present, were there any other people that -- present who were not paramilitary, not military, but other people from the municipality? If you know their names, I'd ask you to describe them for us.

A. Yes, there were people in civilian clothes. Mr. Brano Grujic was there, Marko Pavlovic, Aco Sekanic, and some other people in civilian dress from the municipality that I don't know. This was very brief. Mr. Pejic said that in the evening, at 6:00, he would celebrate his promotion, and he invited all those present to come. I heard that in the evening they did celebrate. I wasn't there. I left.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, we must take this rather more rapidly, if we can, please.

Witness B-161, it's very helpful to have your recollection of what occurred, but if you'd just concentrate on the questions which counsel asks, since we have a great deal of detail to get through.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Just a few more detailed questions about this. When Colonel ²¹⁰³² Milosevic entered the room, did Pejic salute him?

A. Yes, he did. He saluted him and reported in line with military rules.

Q. Now, Colonel Milosevic, did he return the salute?

A. Yes, he returned the salute as envisaged by regulations.

Q. And was it your understanding that by what Colonel Milosevic said to Pejic he promoted him on that occasion from a Major to a Lieutenant Colonel? Is that your understanding of what Colonel Milosevic did?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Now, were you present when Pejic made a phone call directly after this event?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Who did he call?

A. He called Mr. Raznjatovic and said that Colonel Milosevic had promoted him to the rank of lieutenant colonel. The other one responded - there was a microphone attached to the telephone - "If the 'Komunjara' has promoted you to lieutenant colonel, I am now promoting you to the rank of colonel," and he said, "I understand," and he asked that the rank insignia be attached to his uniform. There were a couple of ladies present as well.

Q. Was the phone on speaker phone? Were you able to hear Arkan speaking on the phone or did Peja tell you about what he said afterwards?

A. Yes, everyone present could hear it because it was on the microphone. Speaker, I'm sorry.

Q. Did there come a time when you became aware of members of Arkan's ²¹⁰³³ men committing crimes in the hospital in Mali Zvornik or in Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you obtain Arkan's phone number and call him and personally inform him of what you had learned?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his response?

A. He shouted, and he said, "Shoot all those there." And I said, "It's your army, not mine. Come and shoot them yourself."

Q. And what happened?

A. I met Arkan the next day, in the morning, on the road. They told me that he had been there, that he had lined up his troops, that he had sentenced two to death, and that he had driven them off with him. This was the story told by citizens.

Q. Now, during the summer of 1992, did you have an opportunity to see a person known as Captain Dragan in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many times?

A. I saw him only once over there. There was an incident, and he was involved in that incident.

Q. The incident that you're talking about, was it during the takeover of the town or did it occur sometime after fighting had subsided in the town?

A. It was sometime after the fighting in town had stopped.

Q. Can I ask you, in a sentence or two, to summarise the event that you witnessed having to do with Captain Dragan. ²¹⁰³⁴

A. One day, in the early evening, the local radio broadcast the news that terrorists had entered the town of Zvornik. The citizens were disturbed. We were sitting in Mali Zvornik, and we saw citizens looking in the direction of Zvornik, and we could hear bursts of fire across the Drina River. We went to the riverbank, and we saw soldiers going towards a settlement downstream on both sides of the river and searching the riverbanks.

Q. Did you see -- did there come a time when there was a man standing next at the edge of the riverbank, a Muslim man?

A. Yes. I saw a man stepping into the river and hiding and going upstream slowly. Above him was a kind of embankment. People were shooting, and at one point the man was hit and he fell into the river. He was hit by the group of soldiers that were searching the area.

Q. Were you able to tell whether that man was armed?

A. No. It was a man in civilian clothes. It wasn't far away, maybe 150 to 200 metres away from us. The citizens were saying that they saw another man that was wounded but who managed to swim across the river to Serbia.

I got into a car and went across the river, across the pedestrian bridge, and there I came across the column of men searching the area. There were between 60 and 80 of them. They were in -- had war paint on their faces. In front of them was an open jeep with the driver and Captain Dragan sitting to his right. I stopped the car and said, "Mister --" or, "Captain, don't do any more nonsense. It would be best for you to leave as soon as possible." He just looked at me. I got into the car ²¹⁰³⁵ and left.

Q. Did there also come a time when you had a conversation with Aco Sekanic regarding an exercise that Captain Dragan was using -- in which he was using captured Muslim prisoners?

A. Yes. He said, "That crazy captain has come and he took three captured Muslims and said that he would release them, but actually he's training his soldiers using them." After that, there was a meeting at which it was requested that he leave the municipality of Zvornik. He had a similar such meeting with General Mladic.

Q. Sir, I'm going to now ask that you be shown Prosecution Exhibit 450, tab 7. And I want to first draw your attention to the last page of that document, and my question to you is: On the last page, do you recognise any of the names on that last page?

A. Yes, I do know Mr. Mihajlovic.

Q. And what is his first name?

A. His first name is Petar.

Q. And what were his responsibilities during this period of time?

A. He was head of the department for borders, border crossings and aliens in the Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs.

Q. Was he involved in any activities with respect to the --

THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Was he involved in any activities with respect to cooperation between different police departments?

A. Yes. He said that he was coordinator for all the republics, that ²¹⁰³⁶ he also visited Slovenia, all the republics of the former Yugoslavia, therefore, and that he had been appointed to that duty by his federal minister, that is General Petar Gracanin.

Q. I want to draw your attention to the first page of this document. And I would simply ask you to read the top endorsements on this document, first the endorsement on the left-hand side and then the one on the right-hand side.

A. "The Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs, third management, state security service, Belgrade, 23 March 1992, strictly confidential, Saradnja cooperation," number so-and-so. "Recent information and observations with regard to the security situation in the Bihac region."

Q. Sir --

A. Shall I read on?

Q. No. The Chamber will be able to read that later on. I want to now draw your attention to the Karakaj Technical School. Are you aware of that place and can you tell us where it is?

A. Yes, I do know the place. I have quite a number of friends there. The locality is just close to Zvornik. The school is on the right-hand side from the direction of Bijeljina towards Zvornik. I later learnt --

Q. Sir, that's what I want to draw your attention to. Did there come a time after 1992 that you learnt about something that occurred in the confines of that school?

A. Yes. I learnt that there were many people detained there and that they had all been killed and buried in a mass grave somewhere nearby.

Q. Who told you this information? ²¹⁰³⁷

A. I heard this information from citizens, from friends from that locality. And later on, I was given more details by the president of the municipality, Mr. Brano Grujic.

Q. Can you tell us approximately how many people Brano Grujic told you were killed in that school?

A. He told me that more than 700 men had been detained there, 740. They weren't killed there. They were taken away from that place and killed somewhere else, and that it wasn't upon his orders but that one of his associates had given the order. Let me see now. He's under number 13.

Q. And that's number 13 of tab 2. Did he tell you who actually committed the crimes?

A. He told me that the crime had been committed by a group of Yellow Wasps. There was a group from Pivarski and Niski that I didn't know, and that these men had been prepared for an exchange for Serbs from Tuzla.

Q. Did he indicate to you whether or not a person -- the person indicated under number 6 on tab 2, whether he had any involvement in the events at Karakaj?

A. Yes, certainly.

Q. Please describe what involvement this person had.

A. That person coordinated all those paramilitary units, and he complained to us about those units, but we saw that he was closely connected to them. And when the time came to arrest one of the leaders of those paramilitary units under pressure of citizens who were saying that they were committing grave crimes against all ethnicities. ²¹⁰³⁸

Q. Sir, I want to now draw your attention to a different area, and I want to begin by asking you, do you know a person by the name of Branko Ostojic?

A. Yes, I do. He's listed as number 18.

Q. Can I ask you, do you know this person personally?

A. Yes, I know him well.

Q. Can you, in a sentence, describe what role or position he had during this time period.

A. He was the vice-president of the government of Republika Srpska in charge of economic affairs. And he was a prominent member of the SDS party.

Q. Did he ever have a discussion with you with respect to bills that he paid for members of the RS leadership in Belgrade?

A. Yes. He said that those bills had cost him -->.2 million.

Q. Did he tell you who he paid those bills for and the circumstances surrounding the payment of those bills?

A. He said that he paid the bills for the entire leadership of Republika Srpska at the Intercontinental Hotel, that those were bills that they had incurred and that he was surprised that the drivers had made more telephone calls than the leaders.

Q. Can you tell us the names of the leaders who he indicated were -- these bills were for.

A. According to what he said, there was Mr. Radovan Karadzic, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, the Prime Minister Lukic, some deputies, and their assistants, like drivers and bodyguards. ²¹⁰³⁹

Q. Did he indicate to you what was the purpose of their stays in Belgrade?

A. He didn't say what the purpose was, but it was to consult with the leadership of the state of Yugoslavia.

Q. And did he indicate to you what period of time this occurred?

A. This occurred before the beginning of the war and at the very beginning and for the next two years.

Q. Did he describe for you the relationship between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic?

A. Yes. He often spoke about that relationship. He said he didn't understand why Karadzic had so much trust in Krajisnik, because in his opinion, Krajisnik was a man who was not working well for his own people.

Q. Did he describe the relationship between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Jovica Stanisic of the Serbian MUP?

A. No, he didn't go into any detailed explanations of that relationship.

Q. Did he describe anything with respect to the appointment of the criminal service bureau, the CSB, chiefs in the Podrinje area?

A. I don't know which chief you're referring to, of what location.

Q. Do you recall Mr. Ostojic saying anything with respect to these appointments?

A. Yes. He was dissatisfied with the appointment of the head of the MUP of Republika Srpska and other chiefs of security centres, saying that they were mostly Krajisnik's men and that it wasn't in order that Mr. Karadzic had more trust in Mr. Krajisnik than in anyone else. ²¹⁰⁴⁰

Q. I want to now draw your attention to mid-July of 1995 and ask you, were you once again in the Zvornik area at that time?

A. Yes, I was. I was in that area.

Q. Were you in a village in the area during which time you saw a group of people?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Can you tell us how large the group of people were and where precisely they were, without -- not necessarily telling us the name of the exact village.

A. There were up to 50 women and children there in front who were in front of a school playground. The playground was full of buses and soldiers of some kind who also had their faces painted in African colours. I stopped for a moment there and received some information, upon which I left and went to the command of the army of Republika Srpska in Zvornik.

Q. Before you left the village, did you ask the people or did they tell you what was going on in that area?

A. They told me that they were killing people from Srebrenica there, and bursts of fire could be heard frequently.

Q. Were you yourself able to hear the gunfire?

A. Yes. I too heard the gunfire. It was about 100 metres from the road.

Q. I interrupted you when you said -- you were beginning to say you went to report this to someone. Can you tell us precisely who it was you reported this observation to. ²¹⁰⁴¹

A. I went there with a friend of mine, and I was looking for the head or the chief of that army by name, or anyone among the leaders. The man on duty told me that none of the leading people were there but that he expected somebody to come shortly.

After awhile, a man did appear, a lower-ranked officer. He was cursing, and he said, "What are these Serbs like when they refuse to kill?" that he had to do it. And I said, "How could you do any such thing?" And he was surprised and -- as if he expected me to know that Mr. Beara had given such an order. I heard the name for the first time. I didn't know his first name. Then I retorted something rather roughly, and then I left.

Q. Can you tell us precisely what this person said about who ordered him to do what?

A. He said that Beara had ordered that 6.900 people had to disappear within five days, from Zvornik southwards towards Bijeljina.

Q. Can you describe the physical condition or anything unusual about this particular person's clothes?

A. He didn't have a cap on his head. He was wearing a soldier's shirt of some sort. He was -- he had soot on his arms, and he said that he himself had to pick up a weapon and shoot. And he gave the impression of somebody disturbed, excited, in haste.

I asked him what his name was. He gave me the first name. I later learnt his surname as well.

Q. What was his name?

A. His name is Drago. Later, I heard the surname was Nikolic. ²¹⁰⁴²

Q. You said earlier, or the transcript records you as saying that the -- bodies had to travel from Zvornik to Bijeljina. Did the transcript record your answer correctly?

A. For the bodies to go from Zvornik to Bijeljina? That doesn't sound right to me. Maybe in the direction of Bijeljina, not as far as Bijeljina.

Q. Can I ask you, just for the sake of clarity, can you please say again what it was that this person who you later learnt to be Nikolic, what exactly it was that he said to you.

A. Nikolic said that between Zvornik and southward towards Bijeljina, 6.900 men needed to be killed within five days. They were transporting live men to various villages and killing them. They did not enter the territory of Bijeljina municipality.

Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention --

JUDGE MAY: Can I clarify this account. Who was it who told you, first of all, in the village or wherever it was that they were shooting people from Srebrenica? Who told you that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The locals told me, who were protesting and who disapproved. A woman was protesting, and then this soldier headed towards her with a rifle in his hand. They said that they had brought several busloads there and that they were killing them behind the school.

JUDGE MAY: And then you went to the command. Is this right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And there you met this officer. ²¹⁰⁴³

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And he was Nikolic; is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And he told you that somebody called Beara had given this order?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may we go into private session for a brief moment to ask one question related to this?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁰⁴⁴

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you now to draw your attention to the years 1994 and 1995. During this time period, did you also have occasion to travel frequently in the area of Western Serbia and Eastern Bosnia?

A. Yes, that's right, I did.

Q. During your travels in those areas, did you become familiar with convoys that would cross the border?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Can I ask you first to tell us approximately how many different times did you personally see convoys crossing the border, either from Serbia to Bosnia or Bosnia to Serbia -- I'm sorry, Serbia to Republika Srpska, or Srpska to Serbia.

A. Well, I saw that at least 50 times.

Q. Can you characterise the convoy for the Chamber? For example, ²¹⁰⁴⁵ tell us approximately how many vehicles would be in a convoy on any typical observation, and what types of vehicles they would be.

A. They were large trucks, and during one night about 80 trucks would cross the bridge, from 30 to 80. The crossings were made at several bridges, and when fuel was being transported, they had to have the canvas awnings across the trucks. There were different loads. There were logs being transported, people said that wheat was being carried too. So there were different truckloads of different goods.

Q. Can you describe the licence plates of these vehicles? Did they identify the particular country or republic that they came from?

A. The licence plates were from the Republika Srpska, all the towns there, and also from the Republic of Serbia.

Q. Based upon your observations of these convoys and your conversations with other people who saw these convoys, are you able to estimate for the Chamber with what frequency these convoys went across between the two countries?

A. Sometimes every evening, sometimes every other evening or every two or three days, and I think it was a very profitable convoy. Certain leaders from the MUP on both sides would make a lot of money, and so would certain politicians, local ones.

Q. Was there an area or a particular location in Serbia across from Zvornik that was used as a staging area for these convoys?

A. They would come in loaded up, then they would wait there on -- in a parking lot in front of the Ravnaja factory, a quarry there, and that's where they used the raw materials for that limestone factory. And the ²¹⁰⁴⁶ place itself was referred to as "the quarry."

Q. And did you on -- did you ever see vehicles waiting there, waiting to cross the Drina?

A. Yes. I saw that on several occasions. And when the news was bandied about that everybody was making a profit and earning things, there was a commission set up in Republika Srpska, and one member of the commission said that each driver had to pay a thousand marks in order to be given a turn in crossing. And this bypassed all the rules that had been established for the passage of those convoys. I asked -- I apologise, but let me just say I asked who the money was going to, and they said, "To the MUP over there." And I said, "Well how much did you take in tonight?" And he said, "263.000 German marks in just one night." So each driver, in addition to all the other papers, had to have a thousand German marks with him to be allowed to cross on any particular evening.

Q. On the occasions where you personally saw convoys cross the border, can you please describe what border controls, if any, were on the Serbian side of the border.

A. On the Serbian side, a leader from the administration for border crossings would always turn up, the border crossings and aliens department. And from the Bosnian side, there would also be a commission from a team set up for the convoys and one staff member from their MUP.

Q. Were there any particular people that you recognised being present at the border crossing during the time that you saw a convoy crossing?

A. Yes, that's right. ²¹⁰⁴⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁰⁴⁸

Q. Can you please tell us their names.

A. I would see quite often there the chief, Mr. Puzovic, and his assistant, Mr. Boro Peric, and sometimes their inspectors.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness now be shown Prosecution Exhibit 450, tab -- I'm sorry. This is a photocopy of Prosecution Exhibit 336, Your Honours, pages 28 and 29 from the map.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you take a look at this document and ask you, do you recognise the marks made on this map?

MR. GROOME: Could I ask the usher, please, to place it on the overhead.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recognise the border crossings. On the first one, I saw Mr. Jesuric in front of the convoy, preparing --

Q. Sir, can I ask you, was it you who made the markings on this map?

A. Yes, it was me.

Q. I'm going to ask that it be placed on the table to your left. The usher will help you with that. I'm going to ask that you take the pointer that's in front of you. What do your marks on this map indicate?

A. This first one up here is the border crossing -- the first mark denotes -- this circle and the Red Cross denotes the border crossing between Serbia and Republika Srpska, and the place is Sremska Raca, the actual crossing.

This second one is another border crossing between the Republic of Serbia and Republika Srpska, and the border crossing is called Pavlovica Cuprija at the Dadovica place, municipality Dadovica, in front of the ²¹⁰⁴⁹ village of Popovi.

And then the third location is the border crossing at a place between Veliki and Mali Zvornik, on the bridge there. And throughout the war and -- it was assigned for -- as a footpath, and it still is. Otherwise, it was used for regular general traffic.

Q. Sir, the three marks that you've made on this map, are they all locations where you personally saw convoys crossing between Serbia and Republika Srpska?

A. Yes, that's right.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask, for the last few questions I have for the witness, that we go into private session, and this is with respect to my earlier request before the witness entered the Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁰⁵⁰ Page 21050 - redacted - private session

²¹⁰⁵¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I hope that with my ²¹⁰⁵² questions I'm not going to disclose the witness's identity. That is something I do not wish to do. I do not wish to be doing that, because the witness is a secret witness, if I can put it that way.

JUDGE MAY: If you think there's any --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want us to keep going into closed session.

JUDGE MAY: No, of course. But if you think there is an area in which there is a danger of that happening, then we'll deal with that in private session. But if you can avoid it by not asking questions which are liable to do that, then we can stay in open session. And I should tell the witness, if there is some question which you think might have that effect, then of course you can ask to go into private session yourself.

Yes. Let's make a start. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Well, let's start off then with Bijeljina. I'll have some questions later on which I think you'll wish to hear in private session due to the witness's identity, but let's start off with Bijeljina. And this will not establish his identity but to a certain extent -- actually, you were a resident of that region, the region you're talking about, or, rather, you're a Serb for Bosnia, let me put it that way.

A. Yes.

Q. You worked in Serbia, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. So when we're talking about Bijeljina, who brought the Serb ²¹⁰⁵³ volunteer guards of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, to Bijeljina in the first place?

A. Well, people said that this was done by the local leadership of the Bijeljina municipality.

Q. And is Mauzer one of those local leaders?

A. Yes.

Q. And the rest of the people from the local leadership; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Some witnesses mentioned here some people from the leadership of Republika Srpska and not the local leadership. Do you know anything about that?

A. No, I don't know anything about that. The only thing that was mentioned was the name of Mr. Jesuric.

Q. Who?

A. Mr. Jesuric, the chief of MUP of Bijeljina.

Q. Let's be more specific. Jesuric, the chief of MUP of Bijeljina, is mentioned, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Mauzer as well?

A. Yes.

Q. He's also from Bijeljina, is he?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Mauzer the founder of that paramilitary unit which was called, as far as I -- as far as was said here, the Serbian National Guard; right? ²¹⁰⁵⁴

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I just ask the Court to remind the witness that if he talks while Mr. Milosevic's mike is on, his voice will go out and be broadcast without protection.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you bear that in mind, Witness B-161. Watch his microphone. Wait until it's turned off.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope we'll find our way around that, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever, Mr. 161 -- what's the problem now?

Do you have any knowledge whatsoever that anybody from the authorities of Serbia - so not only the Ministry of the Interior but anybody else from the government of Serbia - had anything to do with the arrival of Arkan in Bijeljina?

A. No, I do not.

Q. I assume on the basis of all the elements and references that you have in view of your knowledge of the situation and you are origins, that you are very well-informed about the situation and state of affairs in that locality; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So the Serbian Volunteer Guards of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was brought in by the local leadership, the man that you say was in the SUP of Bijeljina, Jesuric, I think, as well as Mauzer, and the local politicians; right? I heard you say that they had given some money; is that right? ²¹⁰⁵⁵

A. Yes.

Q. How many men arrived? Did you ever learn about that at the time, from Arkan's unit? How many men did Arkan's unit number? Apart from the ones who were locals from Bijeljina itself. Arkan's unit, the volunteers that he rallied together in Serbia, how many of them were there?

A. I heard exactly 186 was the number.

Q. Well, some other figures were mentioned here, but you heard --

A. Eighty-six. I apologise. 86 not 186.

Q. So from Serbia or do you mean the ones who were from Bosnia-Herzegovina as well among them?

A. From Serbia. The unit which came up once, altogether.

Q. In a piece.

A. Yes, right.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 86.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As we had mention here that the attack from Bijeljina was actually a Serbian aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, which means this arrival of the 86 volunteers, was in fact that aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. At the invitation of the local leadership from Bijeljina. Very well. You say in your statement that Mauzer too was in Arkan's headquarters. And as you know the situation very well, explain to me, please, how this relationship worked. Mauzer was the founder of the Serbian National Guards. He was in Arkan's headquarters. Does that mean ²¹⁰⁵⁶ that he himself alone -- was alone in Arkan's headquarters or were other members of that national -- Serbian National Guard of his that he set up there, that he set up in the area, were any of those members there together with the volunteers brought in by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan? Can you clarify that and explain that to me, please.

A. Yes. At the headquarters, there were members of the leadership of the SDS, the local SDS leadership.

Q. And was Mauzer a member of the SDS at the time?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And later on he was a member of the Democratic Party, wasn't he?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And what was he in the Democratic Party? What role did he play?

A. He was one of the principal members in the Main Board.

Q. In Belgrade for the Main Board or for Bosnia-Herzegovina? What? What do you mean? Was that it?

A. Not in Belgrade. He was in Bijeljina. He was the top man in Bijeljina.

Q. Right. I see. Was he at the head of the Democratic Party?

A. Yes, he was at its head.

Q. And who else out of the SDS leadership was with Arkan and Mauzer at the time in Bijeljina?

A. There were the local politicians.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say -- but not in the testimony but reading your statement, ²¹⁰⁵⁷ you say that in that staff there were interrogations of certain persons who were later killed and thrown into the Drina River. Was this an error in the statement? Because you didn't mention it now. Or do you have any specific knowledge about this?

A. Yes, there were interrogations and killings of those people. There were members of the Bijeljina police who interrogated those people.

Q. And tell me, please, how many people were interrogated and killed in those headquarters, according to what you know?

A. My information is about 50 people.

Q. Do you know with precision how long the war in Bijeljina went on for?

A. For about three days.

Q. Do you know how many people were killed on both sides in Bijeljina during that war?

A. I don't know. There are rumours about figures ranging from a few hundred to only a couple of individuals or, rather, from a couple of individuals to several hundred.

Q. So you don't know.

A. No, I don't know the exact number.

Q. But we had some documents here, but you probably were not aware of them. You have no idea as to how many people were killed, both Serbs, Muslim, men and women, in those events in Bijeljina.

A. I said about close to 50 all in all were killed.

Q. A moment ago, you said that in those headquarters 50 people were reported to have been killed. ²¹⁰⁵⁸

A. Yes, but in the town only some about six people were killed.

Q. I see. So they were captured, taken to the headquarters, interrogated, and killed. How do you know that?

A. It was told by people who were in the headquarters.

Q. Very well. But do you know that Bijeljina was actually an environment, I would call it, in which Muslims were not persecuted, judging by all the information I have received? Can you confirm that or deny it? Were relationships good between the Serbs and Muslims there, that Muslims were not victimised in Bijeljina?

A. At first some were, and later on, a camp was formed at Batkovici where they were taken, and what happened there, I don't know.

Q. But how did that conflict in Bijeljina start? Do you know anything about those activities of the Green Berets, the Patriotic League, the barricades that were erected in Bijeljina, the taking of control by Bijeljina by the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, that is, the blocking of Bijeljina and the beginning of the conflict? Do you know anything about it? Could you tell us your version of what you know about the beginning of the conflict in Bijeljina.

A. Yes. Several days before the conflict, the media and the press were very loud in emphasising ethnic divisions. And then an incident occurred in a coffee bar in which a Muslim with a horse went by and threw in a grenade, after which Arkan's group came and the war began.

Q. So that Muslim is Alija Gusalic, isn't he, the one who testified here?

A. I don't know. I don't know him. I've heard about him. ²¹⁰⁵⁹

Q. You know nothing about the barricades in Bijeljina and the blocking of Bijeljina by Muslim paramilitary units.

A. Yes. At first there were barricades. Where Muslim settlements were, there were erected by Muslims. In the Serb settlements, they were erected by Serbs, and it was not possible to move around at all.

Q. And who started the conflict in Bijeljina?

A. Probably both ethnic groups.

Q. That's a highly diplomatic answer. I'm asking you about what you know. As to what is probable, let's leave that aside.

A. What I know is that when I arrived, I couldn't reach the centre, that it was not possible to enter Bijeljina from Zvornik because there were Muslim barricades erected in settlements inhabited by Muslims. On the other side, there were places where Serbs had erected barricades, and the immediate cause was the incident in the coffee bar when the man threw in the grenades and inter-ethnic tensions heightened increasingly.

Q. Very well. And did you see, since you referred to these interrogations in those headquarters and people being killed, were you present at any one of those interrogations? Did you see anyone being killed there?

A. No. I couldn't reach that place, but I had many friends who told me about these things. And I know that some people have not been traced to this day. I had a friend, a Muslim, who was in the police, and he went there and never returned. He told a high-ranking position.

Q. But you did not attend any of those interrogations. You didn't see anyone being killed, but you heard about it from people who were ²¹⁰⁶⁰ recounting these events.

A. Yes, that is true. But I couldn't reach that place. Not just me, but no civilian could.

Q. I'm just talking about your testimony. You're not testifying about something that you know from your own knowledge but on the basis of what you heard.

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see any bodies floating down the Drina?

A. During the war, I did.

Q. But I'm asking you in connection with this statement of yours, because you say that in those days, as people were killed in these headquarters, that you saw the bodies near Zvornik.

A. If they were killed in the headquarters in Bijeljina, the bodies couldn't be in Zvornik but only Bijeljina. I was both in Bijeljina and in Zvornik.

Q. Well, did you see any bodies in the area of Bijeljina floating down the river?

A. Yes, some individual ones.

Q. When?

A. Both at the beginning of the war and during the war.

Q. And during those three days of fighting in Bijeljina, did you see any bodies then?

A. No, I didn't see any then, but I heard that they had been buried close to the Drina.

Q. I see. You heard that they had been buried. But then they ²¹⁰⁶¹ couldn't float down the river if they were buried.

A. Of course not. But it is known, for instance, where a guard of a gravel mine reported finding some dead bodies, and then people went and buried them.

Q. You went to Bijeljina for the first time when the three-day war in Bijeljina was over, or two-and-a-half-day war.

A. The first day -- time was the day after the war started.

Q. I noted down during your testimony that you said that the first time you went was when Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic arrived. You mentioned Fikret Abdic.

A. That was the second time.

Q. I noted down he went to Bijeljina the first time when Abdic came to Bijeljina. Is that right or not?

A. The first time --

Q. I don't mean the first time in your life, because that's where you come from. Who knows how many times you went there. But I was saying that now in your testimony you said that you went there for the first time on the day Abdic came to Bijeljina; is that right?

A. We're talking about the centre of Bijeljina. That was the first time I could reach the centre of Bijeljina, when Abdic and Biljana Plavsic arrived.

Q. I'm sorry. Something's wrong with the microphones. I'm just trying to verify what I noted down.

JUDGE MAY: No. You have it down wrong if you have that. What the witness described was a visit one evening when the war had started, it ²¹⁰⁶² seems the very evening of it, and he described meeting soldiers. He didn't go into that. And then he said he visited on two other occasions. On the first of those occasions, that was the time that he was told that Mrs. Plavsic and Fikret Abdic were there. Now, that was his evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. If that is what it says in the transcript, Mr. May, there's no need for me to ask him any more questions about that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But will you please explain to me now, you say that on the day when Biljana Plavsic visited Bijeljina, as well as Fikret Abdic, they were also in Bijeljina -- let's not say first or second time, it doesn't matter -- that you went there for personal reasons, is that right, as you mention the fact that you went to the house of your relatives, et cetera. You went there for private reasons, didn't you? You didn't go there officially, but you happened to be there; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that you then learnt or saw that a large number of citizens were trying to cross the bridge and go to Serbia; is that right?

A. Yes. Not across the bridge. There was no bridge there at the time. There was a ferry.

Q. I see, a ferry. But many people were trying to cross the river to go to Serbia; is that right? And I assume you mean both Serbs and Muslims, don't you, when you say that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know, in view of everything that you learnt about ²¹⁰⁶³ during your practice and career, how many tens of thousands of Muslims had fled to Serbia from the beginning of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. Yes, I do know that.

Q. Those Muslims who fled to Serbia from the war operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did they encounter any kind of problems in Serbia because they were Muslims?

A. No.

Q. Were they treated in an identical manner as refugees from other areas who were Serbs?

A. Yes. They even came to see me personally, to my office.

Q. But in view of everything that you did, and you were very well-informed, do you know of any case of a Muslim being mistreated in Serbia throughout the duration of the war in Bosnia?

A. The official authorities never did that.

Q. Would it be more correct to say that the official authorities did their best to protect each and every citizen?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. So the behaviour of our police was in conformity with such instructions?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it then clear, in view of the fact that such large numbers of people - I'm talking about dozens of thousands of Muslims fleeing to Serbia - doesn't that show that there was a civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina which they're trying to flee from to an area where there is no war? ²¹⁰⁶⁴

A. Yes.

Q. There were Serbs and Muslims on the other side too, but no war.

A. Yes.

Q. I think you mentioned a case, and I think it wasn't mentioned in private session, that you accompanied a vehicle, you stopped it, you chased away those people, the people who had crossed the bridge, a couple of them, and told them, "This is Serbia. There is no war here. You get lost, go back where you came from." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the normal way the police reacted in Serbia?

A. It is. The police in Serbia had the task of preventing all incidents, any incident from occurring.

Q. Will you tell me, please -- but let me just find my notes. You spoke about the fact that when those conflicts started, there were checkpoints held by various paramilitary groups, whether they were Mauzer's or, I don't know, those Yellow Wasps or whoever, or some TO people. But in any event, these were on the Bosnian side, weren't they? And then you explained that somewhat later, such checkpoints were erected also on the territory of the Republic of Serbia; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And they were manned by the police.

JUDGE MAY: It's now time for the adjournment. The witness agreed with that last question.

We will adjourn now for 20 minutes

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m. ²¹⁰⁶⁵

--- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Mr. Groome over there asked us to discuss a procedural matter in private session. I just wanted to ask a question in that regard, so may I have just a minute, please, in -- if possible.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁰⁶⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁰⁶⁷

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 161 -- Mr. 161, we left off discussing the checkpoints that were established at the time at the crossings into the territory of Serbia, and Mr. Groome asked you a question -- asked you questions with respect to the treatment of the people who crossed over into Serbia via those checkpoints. Your explanation was that our police functioned, as you said, in a routine manner. It did not allow anybody to carry over any weapons, and you yourself stated that the people who wished to cross over into Serbia would change their clothing and put on tracksuits and cross the checkpoints dressed in that fashion; isn't that right?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. My microphone wasn't switched off. That's why you didn't answer, Witness, but that's so, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. You were then asked whether they were routinely searched and weapons taken away from them if any were found, whether they were taken into custody, that is to say those people who made any transgressions of this kind, and your answer was yes; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Therefore, to the best of your knowledge and from what I can see from your statement, the assignment was to take care that there was no ²¹⁰⁶⁸ violence employed with -- not to convey all the violence and conflicts from that territory into the territory of Serbia; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You also said in open session, as far as I understood it, that you had a vehicle with official licence plates; is that right? So that that doesn't disclose your identity.

A. Yes.

Q. You used that vehicle, that type of vehicle, when you were in Bijeljina and Zvornik and in other places too on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, because a border had not been established yet.

Q. All right. But did we take note, with respect to the questions that I asked you that -- did you say that on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on all those occasions you were there exclusively in a private capacity?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me this now, please: For example, during those days spent in Bijeljina, and you said you were there on the second day of the war and then again when Abdic and Plavsic were there and so on, you were also using vehicles with official licence plates, weren't you?

A. Yes, up until the entrance to Bijeljina.

Q. Yes, that's right. So had any of the Muslim citizens, not you yourself but a vehicle with official licence plates from the Republic of Serbia saw you - and I'm sure many people saw you because you drove along the road quite openly, you didn't use any secret passages - were they able ²¹⁰⁶⁹ to conclude from that that somebody from the police force of the Republic of Serbia was present; right?

A. Yes.

Q. On the other hand, you didn't have absolutely any part to play in what was going on there.

A. Right. Yes.

Q. So was anybody present from the police of the Republic of Serbia who did have any role to play there in those events?

A. No.

Q. Thank you very much. I should now like to clarify another point which refers to the mention that was made of the meeting in Topcider. That was also in open session, I assume.

Tell me, please, in your statement - and it's on page 4, paragraph 5 - you say that the meeting was held at the army headquarters, and that is indeed where the 1st Army has its headquarters, in Topcider, at the beginning of 1991. There seems to be a mistake here in this.

A. Yes, there was an official meeting in the course of 1991.

Q. So you say in the course of 1991; right? The Territorial Defence in the area of responsibility of the 1st Army -- and it was responsible to the command of the 1st Army, the JNA, was it not?

A. Yes.

Q. What, then, is irregular, if I can put it that way, if the commander of the TO defence headquarters and staff goes to attend a meeting at the army command to whom that Territorial Defence is subordinated and in whose area of responsibility it is? ²¹⁰⁷⁰

A. Nothing, and I'm not raising that question. I'm just telling a piece of truth, that there was a meeting held there.

Q. Well, that's why I'm referring to it, because what is suggested here is that that took place after the events which were to follow in Bijeljina and Zvornik, and from this we can see -- from the statement we can see, and you have just confirmed it, that this took place before those events or, rather, before any clashes or conflicts took place; isn't that right?

A. Yes, that's right. There was one meeting before the events when the decision was made that Serbs outside Serbia should be given assistance. And later on, Marko Pavlovic went there once again and attended some sort of meeting with General Mandaric. And those were his comments. He commented about that.

Q. All right. Now, in 1991, there were no conflicts in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were there?

A. Not in Bosnia, but generally I said Serbs outside Serbia in general, to provide them with assistance outside Serbia.

Q. All right. Tell me, what was this meeting all about? What specific meeting was it?

A. The leadership of the army was there and so was the political leadership.

Q. From Zvornik?

A. No, no, not from Zvornik, from the whole country, those who were present. The leadership from Serbia and some Serbs from other republics too. ²¹⁰⁷¹

Q. Who was there from Serbia, please, attending the meeting at the 1st Army command?

A. The officers. And it was rumoured that there was a large meeting of top-level officers and some other people from the political circles.

Q. From where?

A. From the political circles.

Q. Did you say police?

A. No, from the political circles.

Q. Well, that's what I'm interested in. Which politicians were there?

A. I don't know. All that was said was that a meeting was held at federal level and that a decision was made that all Serbs outside Serbia should be given a certain amount of assistance.

Q. So do you say some representative of some federal organ was there?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Well, my question was: Who was there from Serbia? Was there anybody there from Serbia, from the leadership of Serbia?

A. Well, I don't know about the leadership of Serbia and whether anybody represented it.

Q. All right. You yourself were not present at the meeting, as far as I understand it.

A. No. No, I wouldn't be there.

Q. Well, who told you about the contents of the meeting?

A. I heard that from some politicians.

Q. Which politicians? ²¹⁰⁷²

A. Well, I was told by Mr. Raicevic that the meeting was held and that the position taken by the leadership from the federal organs was that the Serbs outside Serbia should be helped, were to be helped.

Q. All right. In your statement, you go on to speak about the fact that the rights of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina were jeopardised, under threat, or you used the term "allegedly threatened." So I'm asking you now, were they allegedly threatened or were they de facto threatened?

A. The political situation was such that they were in jeopardy, certain rights of theirs where the majority population were Muslims. Where the Muslims were in the minority, they said that their Muslim rights had been jeopardised.

Q. Well, is it true and correct that what led up to these tensions with respect to the threatening of rights, that this took place after the referendum that was held about the independence and autonomy of Bosnia-Herzegovina at which the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina did not take part? Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And you yourself, as somebody from the area, from the region, did you -- how did you feel the mood of the day? Did you gain the impression, this same impression, that it was illegal to make a decision of this kind without one of the three constituent nations taking part? Was that your impression?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. So what you say that their rights were allegedly threatened, that is not true, but their rights were actually threatened; is that right? ²¹⁰⁷³

A. Yes. But I don't think that a conflict should ever have broken out and the whole situation solved by a war but it should have been solved politically.

Q. Yes. But do you know -- are you aware of the fact that it was precisely the leadership of the Serbs in Bosnia which endeavoured to avoid a war and that they engaged in negotiations and that a plan had even been reached, which was called the Cutileiro plan, signed by the representatives of all three nations, all three ethnic groups, before the war broke out, before any conflict broke out whatsoever, in fact?

A. Yes, there were different variants and options, but I'm not a man of politics myself so I can't really say.

Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you, then, about something you're not familiar with.

Moving on. Let me just take a moment to consult my notes. You speak about the events -- an event that took place at a place called Sepak. Is that a locality, a village near Zvornik? Is that right?

A. It's 20 kilometres before you reach Zvornik, yes.

Q. The question was -- or, rather, the problem that was created was that there were some armed people there or, rather, that there was a substantial quantity of arms in that region; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. From what you yourself said, it would emerge that Fadil -- I forgot to write down his surname -- Mujkic, was it?

A. It was Mujic.

Q. Right. Fadil Mujic. He was a policeman in the SUP of Zvornik, ²¹⁰⁷⁴ was he not?

A. Yes.

Q. And Marko Pavlovic, he was the commander of the Territorial Defence in Zvornik; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So there was one Muslim and one Serb. A Muslim who was a policeman and a Serb who was the TO defence commander. And they entered Sepak and ordered that those weapons be surrendered so that a conflict should be avoided; right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Then you go on to say that they did indeed hand over the weapons.

A. Yes, several days later.

Q. How many weapons did they hand over? Do you have any idea or did you have any information about the quantity?

A. What was said was about 60 long rifles, hunting rifles, arched and non-arched barrels, and a machine-gun was found too.

Q. So 60 long barrels and a machine-gun. In a village with how many inhabitants, roughly?

A. Well, roughly 2.000. About 600 houses, three to four members per house, per household.

Q. So 60 long barrels and a machine-gun. And then, after that, you go on to say that most of those people went to Loznica; right?

A. Yes. They crossed into Loznica in an organised fashion.

Q. Did anybody force them to leave? Were they Muslims? They were Muslims, weren't they? ²¹⁰⁷⁵

A. Yes. The village is 100 per cent Muslim.

Q. So did anybody force them to go to Loznica or did they go of their own free will? Did they decide to cross into Serbia of their own free will to get away from the conflicts and the war?

A. The Territorial Defence commander, Marko Pavlovic, decided about this with them.

Q. Did he exert any pressure on them for them to leave the locality or did they ask to find a safe haven in Serbia?

A. I don't know. I wasn't there myself.

Q. Very well. When talking about this Marko Pavlovic, he has another name, as far as I see. Where is that man from? He lives in Sombor, but I don't know where he is originally from. There are many people from various areas living in various towns. Where is that Marko Pavlovic from?

A. It was established that he has a flat in Sombor and that his family is there.

Q. You too, like a person from a Bosnia, could have an apartment in Serbia. Is he a man from Bosnia or is he from someplace in Serbia?

A. He said that his people had settled there earlier from Lika.

Q. And he had an ID card issued in the Secretariat of Internal Affairs in Sehovici, and that is on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And this was an ordinary ID card that every citizen has?

A. Yes.

Q. And did he show you a decision whereby he was appointed commander ²¹⁰⁷⁶ of the TO of Zvornik?

A. Yes, he did, a little later.

Q. And who is this man that you say was called Sekanic? What is he?

A. He was a reserve officer of the army of Yugoslavia, a local from those areas.

Q. So he too was a man from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his position and role? Because you say that he went to Topcider with Popovic to attend that meeting. Was he Popovic's deputy?

A. Yes.

Q. After these events in Zvornik, you say you informed Tomica Raicevic about it.

A. Yes.

Q. You went to see him because you knew him personally?

A. Yes.

Q. So it was on the basis of a private or friendly relationship?

A. Yes.

Q. So you inform him about problems over there, and in fact, immediately after that, checkpoints were erected, refugees are taken care of, and efforts are being made not to have those problems spread to Serbia; is that right? Was that the sequence of events, more or less?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Thank you. Now I would like to know what -- a little about what happened to you in the textile factory in Zvornik. You were there again on private business I assume, and you learnt that there was a meeting in ²¹⁰⁷⁷ the Alhos factory.

A. Yes. I wanted to see where my relatives were.

Q. And they told you there was a meeting in Alhos, and you went there and attended that meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, please, since you speak about a JNA colonel who came there, was he a JNA colonel or a colonel of the army of Republika Srpska?

A. He was a JNA colonel who had his headquarters at Kucevo.

Q. Was this during the time while the JNA was still in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. Yes. He was said to be the commander of the Drina corps.

Q. Fine. So you said that he promoted this Marko Pejic to the rank of lieutenant colonel.

A. Yes.

Q. I assume, in view of the work you were engaged in, that you know that a colonel, even if he is a corps commander in the JNA, if it was the JNA, nor in the army of Yugoslavia later, does not have the authority to promote someone to a higher officer rank.

A. Yes, but that is what he did. A lot of people witnessed this.

Q. I understand that, but I'm asking you on the basis of your knowledge of the rules. Do you -- are you familiar with the rules according to which that is impossible in the army? In a regular army, it is not possible for a colonel to promote a major to the rank of lieutenant colonel.

A. Yes. He can only make such a proposal. ²¹⁰⁷⁸

Q. A senior officer can always make a proposal to the competent command for something, but he cannot do something that he's not authorised to do. Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you go on to say that attending that meeting were representatives of all the political bodies of Zvornik municipality; is that right? The president of the municipality, the commander of the TO, his deputy, and various other leaders of volunteer or paramilitary units and the Territorial Defence units, et cetera; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And among them you've mentioned the Yellow Wasps, that they too were present.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, are you aware, according to information I have, that those same Yellow Wasps were arrested in a joint operation by the police from Serbia and the police of Republika Srpska?

A. Yes. I'm very well aware of it.

Q. Therefore, not only did the police of Serbia respond to criminal activities by that group but also the police of Republika Srpska cooperated with them in order to take them into custody and bring them to trial?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you have direct knowledge about that?

A. Yes, I do, and I gave a proposal to that effect.

Q. So there's no dispute that they were both arrested and put on ²¹⁰⁷⁹ trial.

A. Yes. Some were put on trial; some were later released in Republika Srpska.

Q. Now, whether someone was later on released, that is another matter. I'm talking about what happened in Serbia. You said that you heard about certain crimes committed by Arkan's volunteer guards in the hospital in Zvornik. What kind of crimes are you referring to?

A. Yes. I heard that they entered there, that they mistreated nurses, Muslim nurses, and a doctor was also present, Dr. Muhamed Jelkic, who was the director of the hospital.

Q. What did you do? Did you do anything?

A. I found Mr. Raznjatovic's telephone number, and I called him up myself and told him that his army on the territory of Zvornik municipality was committing crimes, and I said that they had provoked a major incident at the hospital.

Q. That is this incident, isn't it?

A. There was mistreatment of medical staff. There was rape. At least, that was what people said.

Q. Of Muslims. Of the medical staff? Mistreatment of the medical staff?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was his reaction?

A. He condemned it. And that same night --

Q. Did he tell you to do anything about it?

A. I introduced myself to him. I told him who I was, and then he ²¹⁰⁸⁰ said, "Shoot them all if that's what they're doing." And I said that they were not my army nor was it my territory. And I heard that he came, that he read out a death sentence to two of the participants, and that he eliminated them from the battlefield.

Q. So that was all that you did, because it wasn't your territory or your competence to do anything in that area. You called up the competent person, and that person reacted by sentencing two of his soldiers to death. Is that all you know about it?

A. Yes. He lined up the troops, and in the presence of the local leadership and the citizens, he read out their death sentences.

Q. Tell me now, please, regarding Captain Dragan, as I didn't have any information about his presence in Zvornik. You saw him after the fighting had stopped in town; is that right?

A. Yes. He had stuck up posters saying that he had come as an instructor, and he called on the citizens, the able-bodied citizens of Republika Srpska to join his training courses.

Q. And does it follow from what you are saying that he didn't have a unit of his own in which he could participate in the fighting, but he came as an instructor to train future members of the army of Republika Srpska or Territorial Defence units, what was then called the SAO Semberija, Majevica, and so on?

A. Yes. He came with a couple of other instructors.

Q. So he didn't have a unit, just a couple of instructors.

A. Yes.

Q. So he didn't participate in the fighting or the conflicts in ²¹⁰⁸¹ Zvornik.

A. No, he didn't.

Q. And then you go on to say, "One day, the local radio --" I assume you're referring to Zvornik radio, aren't you? "-- broadcast the news that terrorists had arrived at Zvornik."

A. Yes.

Q. And the next day you were looking across the Drina from the Serbian side. You were at Mali Zvornik, weren't you?

A. The same day that the news was broadcast on the radio.

Q. So you're looking across the Drina from the Serbian side, and you see a group of men in uniform, with weapons, searching the banks.

A. Yes.

Q. And then you saw them kill a man who was in hiding in the water at the bottom of the riverbank. Mr. Groome asked you whether the man was armed, and you said he wasn't armed.

A. No. He was in civilian clothes.

Q. I'm not asking you whether he was in civilian clothes or in uniform. What did that man look like? How deep was he in the water?

A. To above his knees.

Q. Sorry. The microphone is not switched. Would you allow for the possibility that he might have had a weapon that he may have held or dropped into the water to the riverbed?

A. One couldn't see that he had a weapon. He was hiding.

Q. But I heard here through your explanations that this was a captured man, a man who had been taken into custody and who was used as a ²¹⁰⁸² live target for training. This is something quite monstrous. Where did you get such information from?

A. I got that information later, maybe even a month later, from Mr. Sekanic.

Q. I see, from Sekanic who was deputy commander of the Territorial Defence. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you quite sure that that is the incident that is being referred to when this man was killed? Was he a captive who was forced to go into the river for someone to practice shooting?

A. Yes. He said that three men were taken and driven off to be used for that kind of training.

Q. Did Sekanic tell you that those three men were killed?

A. No, he didn't say that. He just commented on Captain Dragan's training of this kind, that there had been some activity already and that he had to leave Zvornik.

Q. This is a very serious accusation. When you say "such training," that means that training should be done, that target practice should be done using live men as targets. Was that the gist of what you heard as a report?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Were you able to check out that report in any way in view of the work you did? I don't believe that you could have been indifferent to such a report.

A. I wasn't indifferent. That's why I reacted. That is why I went ²¹⁰⁸³ to the territory of Veliki Zvornik and cautioned the person who was doing this, saying that he was committing a terrible crime.

Q. And tell me, please, did you inform anyone in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Serbia about such a drastic event?

A. No. I didn't speak much about that because I had instructions to spend as little time close to the Drina as possible.

Q. If those were your instructions, that doesn't include your duty to inform somebody about such a crime. And even if you were anywhere near the Drina and you personally witnessed it, you should have reported it. Did you inform anyone from the police of Republika Srpska?

A. No. It wasn't really functioning well in those days. I did later, when the Yellow Wasps were arrested.

Q. When the Yellow Wasps were arrested it functioned, but there must have been some police force in Zvornik.

Q. But this was something you couldn't tell anyone. It was dangerous to tell anyone any such thing.

Q. I see. You say that General Mladic reacted. You said there was some talk with General Mladic; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. After some time had elapsed, perhaps a month later, when he came to visit Zvornik.

Q. Who talked to Mladic? Who informed Mladic about the event?

A. I don't know. Probably somebody from that department, the department for military matters in charge of Zvornik. From the Territorial Defence, I mean.

Q. Well, he visited Zvornik when the event took place and that he was ²¹⁰⁸⁴ informed.

A. That was in the middle of the summer of 1992.

Q. Well, at any rate, he was in command of the army throughout the territory at the time.

A. Yes, I'm sure he was.

Q. And what was his reaction when he heard this piece of information?

A. I don't know. I didn't see him.

Q. But you mentioned this in your testimony. You say he was informed, that General Mladic was informed and now you say one month after the event when he came to visit Zvornik, that that's when he was informed. So I assume that they told him what his reaction was when he learnt of that.

A. It was sharp. He condemned the incident and an argument broke out between him and Captain Dragan.

Q. All right. Now, judging by all the things you know about General Mladic, did General Mladic forbid all types of non-military behaviour towards civilians, prisoners of war and, generally speaking, was he a commander who endeavoured in every way possible to see that the rules of warfare were respected? To the best of your knowledge, as somebody from the region, as somebody who is well able to assess what was going on, would you say that was true? Do you know about that?

A. Yes. Orders of that kind did come from General Mladic, to the effect that everybody should be placed under the command of the army of Republika Srpska.

Q. And that no unlawful acts towards the civilian population or the ²¹⁰⁸⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁰⁸⁶ POWs were allowed. Was that the position taken by General Mladic and his orders?

A. Yes, that's right, there were.

Q. You also mention a man named Petar Mihajlovic, coordinator of the Federal Ministry of the Interior. And a little bit before that, or, rather, at the very beginning you said that the federal SUP took the position to help the SUP of Republika Srpska, that that's what it decided to do; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Right. You say yes. Now, Petar Mihajlovic, the man you mention as being the coordinator of the federal MUP, what was the period of time that you remember having contacts with him? You mention him in connection with what period of time?

A. 1991 and 1992, and throughout the whole of the war in those regions.

Q. But do you happen to know that it was precisely the Federal Ministry of the Interior that had the task of coordinating with the Ministries of the Interior or, rather, the Republican Secretariats for Internal Affairs?

A. Yes, of course, certainly.

Q. According to the best of your knowledge and what you're testifying to, was that a legal responsibility at that time? Because in tab 7, you provide with us a document which is written by the state security service of the Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs, the third department or management. That is in tab 7. And it says: "Strictly confidential" at ²¹⁰⁸⁷ the top, then it has the Saradnja or cooperation action. And the title is "Recent information and observations with regard to the security situation in the Bihac region."

And then you go on -- it goes on to give us some general information, general knowledge about the region. And that is the period of time which you linked to the work of this man Petar Mihajlovic who was the coordinator; is that right?

A. Yes. Yes, I do know that that was all legal. It was legal, yes.

Q. Well, that's precisely why I'm asking you this. As somebody who knew about these affairs, are you aware of the fact that this is intelligence information?

A. Yes. That's what I'm claiming myself. That's what I say too.

Q. So this is March 1992 that we're talking about, all these observations and information.

A. Yes. He worked in legal affairs. He did legal jobs. What he was doing was legal.

Q. We hear something about explosive devices stolen from the TO warehouses, the 27th of July Barracks in Bihac, et cetera, some hand-held launchers and so on. Something in the vicinity of Bihac airport, some things going on there. But anyway, it was an intelligence report, nothing other than that; isn't that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, tell me this, please: What the president of the municipality at the time, of Zvornik - his name was Brano Grujic - what he said and told you about the killing in the school building, in the schoolhouse. ²¹⁰⁸⁸ And that was precisely a part of his efforts, was it, to uncover the perpetrators, to arrest them and hand them over to the courts; right?

A. Yes. He said that these people had been detained there and that they were to serve as an exchange for Serbs from Tuzla. And when he came back from the field on one occasion, he asked whether the people had food and water over there, and one of his associates told him that there was no need any more because they weren't there any more. And he understood what they had done and that that had been done without his knowledge.

Q. Did he also insist upon the fact that those people, these Yellow Wasps or whoever, should be arrested?

A. He always complained about the paramilitaries, and he had problems with them too. And he asked for assistance. He asked to be given assistance for him be to deal with those people and expel them from Zvornik.

Q. Now, I want to clarify just one point because you know about all this going on there. Is it true that these paramilitary formations were made up of criminals, looters and the like, and not any patriots of any kind, if I can put it that way, who went there for patriotic reasons to set up units of that kind? Isn't that so?

A. Yes. Quite certainly that is correct.

Q. Is it also clear that the people who wanted to protect their own nation joined up the ranks of the Republika Srpska army and were subjected to regular military discipline? They didn't go around setting up paramilitary formations or units of any kind; isn't that right?

A. Yes, but some paramilitary formations did mobilise certain men ²¹⁰⁸⁹ too, people who didn't know whether it was a legal army or not. Ordinary young men, locals from the area who were decent people.

Q. Well, that's not the first time that criminals force decent citizens into things like that. Are you aware of the fact that, for instance, in that Zvornik you mention Brano Grujic, the president of the municipality whom you knew yourself. And I don't know him, I don't know himself myself, but you mentioned him and you mentioned the commander of the Territorial Defence and others. So is it true that all of them together -- when I say all of them, I mean the authorities, the local authorities in Zvornik -- did their best to incapacitate those paramilitaries?

A. Yes, that's right. However, some of them were prone to support looting.

Q. You mean the people in the Territorial Defence?

A. Yes, there were some people there too who made a lot of money out of it.

Q. All right. You spoke about -- about this money-making. And before I go on to my next question, let's clear up something in that regard. Mr. Groome asked you about the convoys that crossed between Serbia and the Republika Srpska, and you said that for the most part what was being transported was timber, logs, that is to say for construction purposes, to make planks and beams and construction material out of it. Fuel, wheat, those were other truckloads you mentioned, and everything else that was necessary for the normal running of daily life. So it was a trade; right? ²¹⁰⁹⁰

A. Yes. Different types of goods were traded.

Q. And in peacetime this is the normal passage of goods, following those routes?

A. Yes.

Q. So what I'm interested in that regard and what I would like us to clear up is the following: You say that the drivers of those trucks, regardless of whether they owned the property or were just truck drivers, that they represented these companies hauling the goods or the private owners, the proprietors of those logs, timber, wheat, et cetera, whatever, and that they had to give bribes of 1.000 marks to take their line and cross the Drina River; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And who did they give those bribes to?

A. There was a commission set up, waiting on one bank, one side, all the people that they themselves designated, and that's who the money was given to without any trace of it.

Q. What embankment were these people on; on the embankment on the Serbian said or on the BH side or, rather, the Republika Srpska side?

A. According to my information, it was on the Bosnia-Herzegovina side that the money was taken.

Q. Well, as you said that this went via the MUP, when you say "MUP," you mean the MUP of Republika Srpska, right?

A. There was a list that was compiled by the MUP of Serbia and by the MUP, that they controlled these licence plates together.

Q. Well, licence plates are another matter, but who took the money, ²¹⁰⁹¹ the bribes given for the passage of the trucks?

A. People from Republika Srpska who said that the money was needed for the purposes of war.

Q. I'm not interested in that question further but I wanted to clarify that point.

Now, the next point, please. You spoke about something that is the most -- worst. I'm not going to mention the name of the village. You mentioned it in private session, but you said that you saw about 50 women and children standing in front of a schoolyard when you were passing by precisely in the village that you gave us during private session, and you said that was in mid-July 1993; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Explain this to me now, please: Are you sure that it was mid-July 1993, that that was the date?

A. 1945 -- 1995, not 1993.

Q. You said mid-July, so I don't understand. You said there were some people from Srebrenica.

A. It was a mistake. It was 1995. Perhaps I misspoke if you wrote it down as being that.

JUDGE MAY: No, I think not. I have it as mid-July 1995. That's what you said.

That's what the witness said, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. May. Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And you further state that an officer appeared whose name was -- ²¹⁰⁹² was this in private session perhaps? It wasn't, I don't think. The name of the officer, was that in private or open session? His name was Drago Nikolic. And you said that he told you that the person who issued that order was a commander of theirs whose name was Beara; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So who is that commander whose name is Beara?

A. Well, that's the first time I heard of that particular surname. I don't know who he was.

Q. Well, you heard it for the first time, but I'm sure you learnt who it was, who it could have been, later on.

A. Later on, I learnt that he was the deputy head for security of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.

Q. The deputy head for security, you say?

A. Of the army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Ah, I see, the army of Republika Srpska. And this man here Nikolic told you that this person Beara had ordered that 6.900 people be killed; is that it? Is that what you claim?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And did you see anybody else on that occasion except for this lower-ranking officer? What rank did this lower-ranking officer in fact have?

A. He was a lieutenant of some kind.

Q. Tell me now, please, once you learnt or, rather, when he told you or ordered, this man Beara, once this man Beara ordered these people to be ²¹⁰⁹³ killed, did you inform anybody of that?

A. I didn't have anybody to inform.

Q. Well, you could have informed these people in the nearest municipality, the command there, the headquarters there, or anybody else. What's the biggest town there? The village you mention, it's in the Zvornik municipality, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, did you inform anybody, for example, the authorities in the Zvornik municipality about this?

A. No. Nobody was present. They were all off somewhere in the field.

Q. And did you stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the territory outside Serbia when all this went on, as you say, in mid-July?

A. Only that afternoon, for that one afternoon.

Q. So you didn't inform anybody?

A. Well, a gentleman from the service from the territory of Serbia was with me.

Q. Who was with you from Serbia? Who did you say was with you from Serbia?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I answer that question in private session?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁰⁹⁴ Pages 21094-21098 - redacted - private session

²¹⁰⁹⁹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue with a couple more questions, please?

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: No. We'll come back to it in due course. Let me just deal with the witness. Mr. B-161, we're going to adjourn your evidence now, and we will ask you to come back at a convenient date, but as soon as reasonably practicable, to conclude your cross-examination and deal with any other matters which may arise. We're going to deal with something else. You are free to go but after we've dealt with the other matter briefly.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the Court was prepared to -- and the accused no doubt was prepared to deal with the next witness, B-024 and ²¹¹⁰⁰ Professor Kristan tomorrow. For various reasons, it would be helpful if we could reverse the order of those two.

I know that Mr. Kay has raised a paper which I've seen a courtesy copy, for which I am grateful, dealing with the position of Kristan, but before we come to make mention to that, amongst the reasons why it would be desirable to reverse the order is this: B-024 is likely to take all of tomorrow or, indeed, judging by today's evidence, possibly more than that because there won't be any other of his evidence. Kristan has to return to Slovenia on Monday evening and cannot stay until Tuesday. So it's, amongst other things, very desirable that he be concluded and doesn't become the third witness this week part heard to another day. If we take him tomorrow, we be sure of finishing him tomorrow or on Monday, and then we can move back to witnesses who can be heard without interruption.

There are some exhibits yet to be served in respect of Kristan, although, of course, his report has been served substantially in advance and is well-known to the accused and to the amici. There's a document of observations that follows on, unsurprisingly, from a remark in questioning by Mr. Tapuskovic yesterday which is challenging the independence of Kristan as a witness. The closing submissions seem to be that he should be dealt with as an ordinary witness, vulnerable to cross-examination as a witness rather than being disadvantaged by being called on any special basis. I'm not quite sure, and no doubt Mr. Kay can explain, if he has time today, what that means, but I don't take it as an objection to the ²¹¹⁰¹ evidence being given root and branch, nor to its being capable of being dealt with tomorrow.

MR. KAY: I filed a motion today dealing with the status of Dr. Kristan as being an expert witness, as he was a judge of the Constitutional Court of Yugoslavia from 1986 to 1991 and was a judge dealing with the issues concerning the autonomous provinces of Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Having considered the matter, I took the view that there was a conflict of interest that was capable of being considered concerning his status as an expert witness or whether he was an ordinary witness and a witness in the case rather than a witness who offers guidance and instruction to the Trial Chamber as an expert does.

JUDGE MAY: That motion or observations, of course, hasn't reached us yet. If it could be expedited, we would be grateful. The issue then will be, which we will have to resolve - we will see what you say - we will have to resolve whether he's an expert.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I was going to say that the issue that you raise is one of conflict of interest, not expertise.

MR. KAY: Yes, that's right. There is no issue that he -- the material that he gives is capable of forming the evidence before the Court. It's his status as a witness.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have to see the motion.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We will take him tomorrow.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May. ²¹¹⁰² ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹¹⁰³

JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. I think that it's really not in order for the order of witnesses to be changed today for tomorrow, especially if we bear in mind that we're interrupting this witness's testimony unexpectedly or, rather, I see that Mr. Groome did plan to interrupt him today, but I didn't know that. I was informed today as you were that this witness's testimony would be interrupted. And now we're not even moving on to the following witness but to a third witness who already has to testify tomorrow and for me to cross-examine him tomorrow. I think such a chaos really should not be allowed. But if you are deciding to interrupt this witness now and resume him later, I don't care about that, but please don't accept the intercepting of another witness tomorrow instead of the witness that was planned, because that really makes it very difficult. I don't even have time to read everything. I don't have any time anyway to read any of these piles of documents that I receive, but this chaos, interruption of witnesses and then resumption of witnesses and then not the next witness in order but the one after that, I really think that is quite unacceptable.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Very well. The majority of the Trial Chamber feel we should finish this witness tomorrow. Would you come back, Mr. B-161, would you come back tomorrow morning at 9:00. We will then give the accused his 20 minutes. No more. You've got 20 minutes. We will then hear Mr. Kristan, at least in chief, and we will review the position -- or we'll hear the objections and we will then review the position as to ²¹¹⁰⁴ whether we should continue with the cross-examination. Mr. Milosevic, you may have to cross-examine Mr. Kristan tomorrow, so prepare yourself as best you can.

Mr. B-161, would you come back, then, please, tomorrow. Very well. We're going to adjourn now.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.