> ²¹³¹⁶

Thursday, 29 May 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Are there matters you want to raise?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing in particular, Mr. May. I just wish to say that I sent the message yesterday that I would come today, though I have not fully recovered, because we had started with the witness, so I thought I should make the effort. Last night I was informed by my associate that he has been interrupted and that now we are going to hear someone else, who should have been fifth. So it only shows that no rules or fair play are being respected. I'm not making any requests in that connection, I just wish to make it known for the record.

JUDGE MAY: You should have been told sometime ago that Witness B-024 was excused with the permission of the Trial Chamber, having been here for several days and having urgent matters to attend to at home. Now, the reason that the order is changed is because of the interruptions occasioned by your illness. Now, we will hear B-1775, we will hear B-024 when he's back. Perhaps we can hear something about that from Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we -- B-024 began his travels home before we were notified that the accused would be attending court today, and we did make an attempt to secure his presence. His -- the visa that ²¹³¹⁷ he was given to attend his original testimony was a single-entry visa so we had to reapply for a visa. Today is a national holiday in Holland, as I believe tomorrow is as well. I'm informed that it is not possible to apply for that visa until Monday. We expect him to be back in The Hague on Wednesday.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Your next witness.

MR. GROOME: The Prosecution calls B-1775. Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness to come in, if I may make a suggestion that may save just a few minutes of time: The Prosecution intends to show this witness a video. The video depicts this witness himself. Given that he has protective measures by the Chamber, it would require the blinds being lowered in order for us to show the video in such a way that would not compromise his identity. What I am proposing is that I be allowed to complete my examination-in-chief, which I believe will only be 15 or 20 minutes, that we begin with the cross-examination, and then, just prior to the break, the morning break, if I could be allowed to reopen my examination for the limited purpose of showing the witness the video, in that way, at that point in time the blinds have to be lowered anyway. But I'll be guided by the Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we might as well have the evidence in one, in fact, rather than break it.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We can simply lower the blinds to do it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

[The witness entered court] ²¹³¹⁸

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I solemnly declare that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1775

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we begin, could I ask that a binder containing 12 exhibits I intend to use with this exhibit be given an exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 452. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to begin your testimony today by taking a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 1. I'd ask you to look at the name printed on the first line of that document and simply ask you, is that your name?

A. [No audible response]

Q. You need to answer verbally so the record can record your answer.

A. Yes.

Q. And does that document also contain details about your educational and professional background?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to tender a Prosecution Exhibit. It's the 92 bis package for this witness. I would ²¹³¹⁹ ask that it be assigned a number for that purpose.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 453, under seal.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, the Chamber, as well as the other parties to this proceeding, have your statement before them and have -- had an opportunity to look at it before your testimony here today. I want to simply ask you some questions of detail regarding your statement.

The first matter of detail I would like to ask you about is, I want to draw your attention to approximately the 5th or 6th of April. During that time -- or around those days, did you attempt to enter Zvornik from Mali Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to do so?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Did there ever come a time when you attempted to cross between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia in which you were prevented from doing so?

A. No.

Q. Can you describe what, if any, border control or police presence there was on the bridge connecting Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. The police -- there was a police control. The police.

Q. And the police, were the police Serbian police or Bosnian police?

A. Bosnian.

Q. Did there come a time when you were directed by one of Arkan's men to collect corpses in the municipality of Zvornik?

A. Yes. ²¹³²⁰

Q. Do you know the name of the person who gave you that direction?

A. Pejo.

Q. And when was it that he told you to do that?

A. On the 6th of April.

Q. Can I ask you to describe in general terms what this task involved. What did you have to do with respect to this direction by Pejo?

A. To collect the dead bodies in town and in the surrounding villages and to drive them to a particular spot, that is, to Alhos.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness view a video. It is tab 3 of Prosecution Exhibit 452. It does involve a depiction of the witness, so I'd ask that the blinds be lowered.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: I don't believe it's technically necessary to go into private session. What he says is perfectly acceptable to be in open session.

And if I could simply remind the director: This exhibit we will be tendering under seal and ask that it not be broadcast.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that the video be played now. I'm going to ask you to look at the video, and then I will ask you to describe what is depicted after the video concludes.

MR. GROOME: Could you play the video now, please.

[Videotape played]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the collection of bodies in town.

This, too, is collecting of bodies near the municipality building ²¹³²¹ -- no. Actually, this is near the Njegos coffee bar, where we collected bodies.

MR. GROOME:

Q. And was that you that was visible in the video, collecting those two bodies that we saw?

A. Yes. Yes. I am there too. Yes, I am there.

Q. Approximately how many bodies altogether did you collect?

A. During the first few days, about 10 to 15. And in -- over a period of a couple of days, we collected about 100 bodies and drove them to Alhos.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there's no need for the blinds to be down. I don't know if it's the Court's wish to raise them.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Witness, I'm going to ask you just to clarify your last answer. You were asked about how many bodies you collected, and the answer as recorded was: "During the first few days, about 10 to 15." Would that be correct?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In one day. That was in one day.

JUDGE MAY: So it should be "during the first day, about 10 to 15."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. That's right.

JUDGE MAY: And then it goes on: "Over a period of a couple of days, we collected about 100 bodies and drove them to Alhos."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: When you say "a couple of days," can you give us a ²¹³²² precise sort of answer, how many days?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe five or six days.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, out of the -- of the hundred bodies that you were involved -- approximate hundred bodies that you were involved in collecting, can I ask you to describe for us or estimate for us the -- approximately how many were men, how many were women, as well as approximating for us the different ages or age ranges of the people who had been killed.

A. They were all men, and they were between about 25 to 65 years of age.

Q. And of these hundred or so men, approximately how many were in -- dressed in military uniforms or had any evidence of having been armed?

A. About one half were in civilian clothes and the other half in military uniform.

Q. Now, you said that the bodies were brought to the Alhos factory. Once they were brought to that factory, did anybody conduct an examination of the bodies?

A. A doctor, a pathologist, Zoran Stankovic, came from Belgrade. He examined the bodies, and we would wash them for the postmortem, and if there was any information about them, he kept it so that it would be possible to find them if somebody came looking for them.

Q. Did Dr. Stankovic conduct a postmortem of all of the bodies that you collected, if you know?

A. Not all of them. He examined those bodies for a couple of days and not the others. This was just the environs of Zvornik. The bodies ²¹³²³ from Zvornik were buried at the Zvornik cemetery, so that if family members come looking, they would know where they are. They were buried according to the regulations, in sacks, and the tombs were marked.

Q. During Dr. Stankovic's examination of the bodies, did he or assistants take notes about his observations of -- that he made during these postmortem examinations?

A. Yes. Yes, yes, they did keep notes, and there are documents with those notes; how they were killed, whether the shots were from the front or from the back, whether they had any scars on them, on hands or legs that would distinguish them and that the family could recognise them by.

Q. Now, you've told us that Dr. Stankovic was from Belgrade. Was he associated with any organ of the government that you know of?

A. I don't know. But probably he was. He couldn't have come on his own just like that. And No. 1 and No. 2.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Your Honour, for -- the witness had expressed some concerns about talking about some people in that it would reveal his identity. If I could refer the Chamber to tab 2 of his binder, and could I ask that a copy of that be placed before the witness.

Q. Sir, you've just given us the numbers 1 and 2. Are you referring to the names -- or the people named on this list?

A. Yes, I am.

MR. GROOME: And if I could ask that that exhibit be placed under seal.

Q. Can you please describe for us these people, number 1 and number 2 on tab 2 of 452. Could you tell us, what was their involvement in the ²¹³²⁴ postmortem examination of these people, these bodies?

A. They didn't participate, but they were the most important people in the municipality.

Q. Now, I'm going to ask you -- again, the Chamber has your entire statement, but if I could ask you to simply list the different locations from which you yourself participated in the collection of bodies.

A. Kazambasca, Glumina, Sahbegovici, Kamenica, Liplje, Divic, Drinjaca, Kozluk, Crni Vrh.

Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at some photographs and ask you if you would describe for us if you recognise what is depicted in these photographs.

MR. GROOME: I apologise to the Chamber; some of these will be out of order in the binder.

Q. But if I could refer you first to tab 11 of Prosecution Exhibit 452, and it should be displayed on the screen in front of you. Do you recognise what's depicted on the screen in front of you?

A. This is Alhos.

Q. And that's the place where you brought the bodies.

A. Yes.

Q. Where precisely were the bodies kept at Alhos?

A. Behind this building.

Q. I'd ask that you now take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 5. Do you recognise what's depicted here?

A. It is the part of Alhos behind, from the back, from the other side. ²¹³²⁵

Q. Does this picture show where the bodies were kept?

A. You can't see it.

Q. I'd now ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 6, and tell us whether you recognise what's in this photograph.

MR. GROOME: I believe the witness is having trouble with glare from the lights. If it's possible for the usher just to hold a folder.

A. Yes.

Q. And what is depicted in that photograph?

A. It's a bit too dark for me.

JUDGE MAY: Do you have a spare copy that --

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We'll hand it out now.

Q. Sir, I'm going to show you the photograph itself. And can you tell us what's depicted there?

A. Yes. This is also Alhos, but from the other side, from the other side. It's also Alhos. Behind this building, that is where the bodies were placed.

Q. Now, there are two buildings depicted in this exhibit, one with a flat roof and one with a peaked roof. Which building are you referring to as the location where bodies were kept?

A. The one without the roof. That one, without the roof.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask now that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 9. We'll display it on the monitor but provide the original photograph to the witness.

A. This is the technical school at Karakaj. ²¹³²⁶

Q. Can I ask you to briefly describe how many times you were called to collect bodies at the Karakaj Technical School.

A. I can't tell you exactly, but roughly it was about 15 times. Perhaps less; perhaps more. Because there was a couple of other groups or teams for picking up the bodies.

Q. And over what period of time did you go to Karakaj Technical School and collect bodies?

A. I can't give you a precise answer, but it was May or June, I think, roughly.

Q. And how many bodies in total did you collect from Karakaj Technical School?

A. I can't give you a precise answer, but it was approximately 100 to 150.

Q. And can you please tell us in general terms, or estimate for us, the sex of the corpses and the ages of them.

A. I didn't understand your question.

Q. Were there men and women corpses that you collected? And can you also tell us the ages of the people that you -- of the bodies that you collected.

A. They were only men. And their ages ranged from about 18 to about 70 or 75.

Q. And were you able to see some of the injuries or injuries on some of the bodies? And if so, please describe.

A. I wasn't able to see that.

Q. Where did you bring the bodies that you collected from Karakaj ^{21327 BLANK PAGE 21328} Technical School?

A. They were driven to Gero's slaughterhouse.

Q. And can you describe where Gero's slaughterhouse is with respect to downtown, or the centre of Zvornik.

A. Well, from Alhos, you go on for about 3 kilometres towards Loznica and Bijeljina.

Q. Now, Gero's slaughterhouse. When you say "slaughterhouse," are you referring to a meat processing plant?

A. No. It was actually a slaughterhouse attached to -- well, when the war started, that's where they brought in the bodies.

Q. Prior to the war, this place was used to kill cattle and other animals used for meat?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. What would you do with the bodies once you brought them to Gero's slaughterhouse?

A. They were driven off to Sahbegovici, where they were buried.

Q. I'm going to ask that you look at another photograph. This is tab 12 of 452. I'll have the original handed up to you and a copy will be displayed on the monitors. And I'd ask you, sir, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. This is the school in Drinjaca.

Q. And did you have occasion to collect bodies from this school?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Approximately how many, and when?

A. Well, there were about 80 to 100 bodies. ²¹³²⁹

Q. And during what period of time did you collect these bodies?

A. I can't remember. I can't give you an exact time.

Q. Can I ask you this: During the time that you collected bodies from the school and from the Karakaj Technical School, was there active fighting going on in those areas between armed forces at that time?

A. There was fighting in Drinjaca. That's where the battles were taking place. Whereas here, in the technical school, there wasn't any. They were just brought in there and detained.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 10 of 452, another photograph.

Q. And sir, I'd ask you, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. That's the slaughterhouse that was known as Gero's slaughterhouse.

Q. Now I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 7, and ask you, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. This is the Dom or centre in Celopek, where people from Divic were held in custody.

Q. Did you collect bodies from this location?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us approximately how many and when, if you are able?

A. I can't tell you the time, but I myself carried about 20, transported about 20.

Q. I'd now ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 7 -- I'm sorry, tab 8, and ask you, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph? ²¹³³⁰

A. That's the agricultural concern, the factory farm, Ekonomija. And there were bodies there too. And I drove them off from there -- I drove about 15 bodies away from there.

Q. And are you able to tell us when?

A. Well, it was somewhere around June, July, thereabouts. I'm not quite sure, because a lot of time has gone by since then.

Q. Are you able to tell us at the time that you collected bodies at the Ekonomija farm whether or not there were active conflict going on in that area?

A. No, there wasn't.

Q. And to draw your attention to the time when you were collecting bodies from the Dom culture centre at Celopek, were there active hostilities in that area at the time you collected bodies?

A. No.

Q. I'm going to ask that you look at another video clip. And at the end of -- at the conclusion of the video clip, I'll ask you a few questions about whether you recognise this location. If you'd look at the monitor before you and tell us if you have any difficulty seeing it.

[Videotape played]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are Glumina. This is Glumina.

MR. GROOME:

Q. This is Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 4. Sir, while we are watching this video, can you tell us what you know about what occurred at the site of this video. ²¹³³¹

A. Well, that's where about 200 to 250 bodies were buried in sacks, and they were numbered and they were in two rows.

Q. Were you involved in carrying bodies to this location?

A. Yes, I was. Yes.

Q. And as best you're able, can you tell us when it was that you carried bodies to this location.

A. I think it was roughly in 1992, towards the end. 1992, the beginning of 1993 perhaps.

Q. Sir, before I ask you to conclude your testimony, I'm going to ask you to take a look at a map.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that it be placed on the ELMO. This is a photocopy of Prosecution Exhibit 336 that bears the markings of this witness. It is pages 28 and 29 from that exhibit.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at the map on the platform before you. If you look to your left, sir, you can see the -- the actual map itself. Not the TV screen but the table to your left. Did you make the markings on this map?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please point to the different markings you made on this map and just briefly tell us the significance of the different markings that you made.

A. Celopek, that is the cultural centre or Dom Kulture. Sahbegovici, that is the burial ground, the site where they were buried. And then Crni Vrh also; Glumina, Kamenica, Drinjaca.

Q. Sir, there is a note at the bottom of this map. Is that your ²¹³³² handwriting?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please tell us what it is you wrote on the bottom of this exhibit.

A. "On the copy I have marked in the types --" "On the copy, I have marked the places which I mentioned in my statement."

Q. Okay. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I just take a moment. And please bear in mind the fact that I -- in the list of witnesses that I have and that you have, that was provided me yesterday with the new order of witnesses, in fact, saw that it says here that the examination-in-chief of this particular witness would last up to three hours, that it comes partially under 92 bis but it includes this phrase "up to three hours," so that I have more questions to ask him than Mr. Groome raised during the examination-in-chief and the time he spent.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, we understand that. But let me point out one thing, that when you get these lists, and there is a time estimate - I think we've mentioned this before - the three hours, as I understand it, is a total time. It's an estimate made by the Prosecution. Is that right?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. So it is an estimate that we would take one hour and a half of questions and allow an hour and a half for cross-examination. ²¹³³³

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1775, you made a statement in 2002. That's right, isn't it?

A. I didn't hear.

JUDGE MAY: You'll have to speak up, Mr. Milosevic, with this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that. I can see I'll have to speak up. I'm doing my best.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You made your statement in 2002; right?

A. Yes.

Q. About the events that took place in 1992; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you made your statement a full ten years after the events.

A. I didn't understand that.

Q. I said you gave your statement after a full ten years had gone by.

A. Yes.

Q. Well, can you remember with any precision everything that happened ten years ago?

A. No, of course I can't. I said I couldn't be precise. Who could be precise and remember everything? Only somebody who makes notes and then can refer to them. But I didn't take any notes, so I can't.

Q. [redacted] ²¹³³⁴

[redacted] (redacted)

MR. GROOME: Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the last sentence be redacted, and if the accused wants to ask specific information about where he lives, that that be done in closed session -- or private session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't understand why we should go into private session. He's not the only person that crossed into Serbia, I assume.

JUDGE MAY: No. Any detail which might identify, such as his address, we should have in private session.

Yes. But unless you're going to ask about that, let's stay on in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So we're in open session, I see.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we are.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, I understood it that the authorities on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina detained you on your journey and crossing into Serbia; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. They stopped you.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, is it true and correct that at the time they said that ²¹³³⁵ you should stay on and defend the Serbian people? That's what you say on page 2 of your statement in paragraphs 2 and 4. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, tell me this, then, now, please: Was the -- were the Serb people in jeopardy at the time and were they forced to defend themselves?

A. Yes.

Q. So who threatened them? Who were they in jeopardy from?

A. Well, the Muslims.

Q. So that was in fact before the conflict in Zvornik took place; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you happen to remember that the day before that, on the 5th of April, in fact - because you're from the area and from those parts and I assume you'll know this - that in the village of Sapna, in the municipality of Zvornik, that an ambush was organised?

A. Yes.

Q. And Muslim extremists at the time killed Miko Stanovic and wounded a number of others in the ambush, other people passing by.

A. Yes. There was this warrant officer that was killed.

Q. Did you hear that the killing had been organised by the president of the Party of Democratic Action from the village?

A. Yes.

Q. And on the Serb side, even at that time there was no reaction. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, that's right. ²¹³³⁶

Q. All right. I assume that you will remember that the time you're testifying about is a time when there was great tension in those parts. Isn't that right, Mr. 1775?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the arrests that were made in mid-March 1992, the arrests without any reason of five Serb young men in Carmani [phoen] in Donji Kamenica, when Avdija Omerovic arrested them? Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. He mistreated them. And did that cause great unrest among the Serbs?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please: Do you happen to remember - I assume you must know this - is it true that in those parts in that region, during the time that you're testifying about, that paramilitary formations were organised of the Patriotic League, the so-called Patriotic League of the Muslim extremists who called themselves the Patriotic League?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true and correct -- or rather, do you remember that in the area the organiser of this Patriotic League was somebody called Samir Misovic, who had a nickname, an alias of Captain Almir?

A. Yes.

Q. And was his headquarters at Kula Grad, above Zvornik?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he linked and connected to Sahib Halilovic and Asim Hodzic, whose superior was a certain man called Karavelic? That's right, isn't ²¹³³⁷ it?

A. Yes.

Q. So is that the structure of these paramilitary formations who had occupied Zvornik at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also true that at the beginning the paramilitary formation in Zvornik was organised from the frameworks of the reserve formations of SUP, S-U-P, in order to cover up its true existence and the activities it was engaged in?

A. Yes.

Q. And tell me, please, do you happen to remember that already as of January 1992 - and I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that this was all as early on as January 1992 - that along the streets of Zvornik you could see and come across some criminals wearing police uniforms more and more frequently?

A. Yes, on both sides.

Q. And tell me, please, was it soon after that that it was made public that certain fighters for the religion were set up, led by the well-known Zvornik criminal called Mithad Grahic, and the unit was known as the Mosque Doves or Djamijski Golubovi?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you hear that where they passed, they left dead people and burnt houses in their wake?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you also remember that in the Zvornik area at that time ²¹³³⁸ another paramilitary group was set up which was called the Cobras, they were the so-called Cobras, commanded by a man named Suljo, who was a teacher before the war, in Sapna?

A. Yes.

Q. And what about Sulejman Terzic?

A. Yes.

Q. And then at the beginning of October, the commander appeared and his name was Semsudin and his nickname was Kobra, in fact. So most probably it was Semsudin Muminovic from Zvornik. Is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was later in command of the Zvornik Brigade in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the so-called army and brigade? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In your testimony and statement you explain that you buried or, rather, transported and buried parts of the corpses of dead Muslims; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. That is to say, you did the -- you were engaged in the final act, the actual burial; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm asking you that because I assume that at the end of everything that was going on, at the end of it all, then this -- the total number was roughly the number that you know about. Is that right?

A. Well, yes, roughly.

Q. And tell me this: Is it true that you took part in transporting ²¹³³⁹ the bodies of Serb fighters, those who had lost their lives up at the frontline during the war?

A. No.

Q. Well, as on page 6, paragraph 6 of your statement you say something about that. Is it true that during that period of time, the one you're testifying about, that you transported at least 5.000 - 5.000 - dead men's coffins of Serb fighters who had -- who were killed up at the frontline between Bijeljina and Vlasenica? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also right that you conducted burial services for Muslims who died a natural death?

A. Yes.

Q. And in those cases they were buried with all the regular religious rites in regular, normal fashion; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please: Is it true that the conflict in Zvornik began on the 8th of April?

A. Yes. But it actually began earlier on, but yes, the main thing was on the 8th.

Q. Well, I've already asked you several questions about what happened before, what came to pass before, so I think that that's quite clear when you say that things began before that date.

And was the immediate cause of the conflict this large-scale mobilisation on the part of the Muslim militia, police, which was ordered by the president of the municipality at the time and the member of the ^{21340 BLANK PAGE 21341} Democratic Action Party? He was a former dentist, Abdulah Pasic, and Nedzad Sabic was another one, the commander of the territorial staff of the TO, who was later commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade of the so-called BH army. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also true that this mobilisation that took place was directed only against the Serbs in Zvornik and that the takeover of Zvornik was directed exclusively against the Serbs, because there were no other people there?

A. Well, against the Serbs, particularly for Zvornik.

Q. You said for the Serbs and particularly for what?

A. For Zvornik.

Q. Yes. What you mean to say is to place the whole of Zvornik under their control and the environs as well; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Otherwise, in the autumn of 1991, these paramilitary formations, the ones which were organised by the Muslim extremists, armed themselves illegally. Do you know about that? Via the proprietor of this cafe which was called the Royal Cafe in Drinjaca. His name was Sead Hadziavdic, as well as in Kamenica through Saban Redzic and Esad Haskic. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. In view of the fact that these Muslim paramilitary units, composed of these extremists of theirs, carried out mobilisation, captured Zvornik, after that the Serbs formed their own units in Celopek a couple of ²¹³⁴² kilometres downstream from Zvornik; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the same time, they evacuated women and children across the Drina to Serbia.

A. Yes.

Q. So if my understanding is right of the sequence of events, Mr. 1775, the fact that the Serbs formed units and sent their wives and children to flee to Serbia was in response to the already carried out mobilisation and the capture of Zvornik by the forces of the extremists, the Muslim extremists. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that you arrived at Alhos. To avoid going into private session, you mentioned these two men that you said were the most important in Zvornik.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Though, Mr. May, I don't see that the mention of these two men would jeopardise the witness.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you want to mention them, we will have to go into private session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't mean his name, but names of these persons he says were leaders.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, their names too.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. So we won't mention names in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²¹³⁴³

Q. But please, Mr. 1775, those two, number 1 and number 2, who were the leaders, they were locals and officials in Zvornik for many years before that, weren't they?

A. Yes.

Q. They were born there, educated there. That is where they lived, and they were there throughout; isn't that so?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 3, paragraph 1 of your statement, throughout that time, whenever you were free and you needed to do so, you travelled to Serbia normally, without any restrictions. Isn't that so?

A. Yes.

Q. The first time you were assigned to go round town and, wherever you find a dead body, to collect it and transport it; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In those days, was this after the conflict which had started on the 8th of April?

A. Yes.

Q. After the major conflict in Zvornik.

A. Yes. That is when the attack took place.

Q. Tell me, please: When you went around collecting them, you did not receive specific information as to where you should go but simply you went around town to see whether there were any bodies and where.

A. Yes.

Q. That was the conclusion I myself reached on the basis of your statement, so I just wanted to check it out. ²¹³⁴⁴ In your statement, on page 3, paragraph 5, you also say that in seven or eight days you had collected roughly 50 killed men of the Muslim ethnic community and the body of one Serb woman and one Muslim woman. And then today you repeated that half of them were in uniform and the other half in civilian clothing; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So is this right; that in the first eight days, you collected about 50?

A. Yes. Maybe more, but that is what I assume it was.

Q. I'm just checking, because I believe that what you wrote down and reviewed is surely more correct than what you say orally. Because a moment ago you said about 100. Of course, 50 could be included in the figure of up to 100, but isn't 50 more or less correct?

A. That is the total number collected in Alhos, approximately.

Q. You collected them, carried them to Alhos, and pathologists were there, invited by the Zvornik leadership, to establish how those people had been killed; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Since I assume that Zvornik, being a small town, doesn't have forensic medical experts.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So the leadership of Zvornik wanted the pathologist to establish exactly the cause of death of each individual who had been killed in the fighting in Zvornik; is that right?

A. Yes. ²¹³⁴⁵

Q. As far as I am able to gather from page 3, paragraph 4 of your statement, you don't know anything as to the circumstances of -- under which those people were killed; is that right?

A. I don't know.

Q. You were shot at too in Zvornik, weren't you?

A. Yes, while we were collecting them.

Q. Did they shoot at you from a distance?

A. From Kula Grad.

Q. While you were collecting the killed?

A. Yes.

Q. How far is that, Kula Grad, from Zvornik? I'm asking you for the sake of information that has nothing to do with your testimony, because it is mentioned in many testimonies, so I'd just like to know. I'm unable to find it on the map, this Kula Grad. It's probably not a toponym of any significance.

A. It is above Zvornik.

Q. On the river or further back?

A. It is on the right bank, towards Sarajevo. From the Drina River, it stretches to the top, to the peak.

Q. Is it a village?

A. Yes, yes, a village, a Muslim village.

THE INTERPRETER: We apologise. We didn't hear the accused.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say on page 3 --

JUDGE MAY: Can we remember to have a pause between question and ²¹³⁴⁶ answer. Otherwise, the interpreters are missing things. Just pause.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The bodies that you collected, according to what it says on page 3, paragraph 6 of your statement, were found at different locations, and there was one, two, three, four, or up to five bodies in some places; is that right?

A. Yes. That is when we were collecting them.

Q. And then, as far as I'm able to gather, you put them in sacks and numbered them, and then those bodies were examined by the pathologists.

A. Yes. First they were examined and then put in sacks.

Q. The identified bodies.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember that when the postmortems were carried out in those difficult conditions of wartime, a judge also attended and worked with the pathologists?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that those pathologists established for each individual how those people were killed, whether they were killed in battle, from the front, from the back; they took notes and compiled reports. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not attend those postmortems nor the compilation of reports, I assume.

A. I didn't understand you. ²¹³⁴⁷

Q. I was saying that you personally did not attend the postmortems and the writing of reports.

A. No, no.

Q. You assumed they did it, or did you see them doing it?

A. Yes, I saw that they were making reports and the pathologist was there, Dr. Stankovic, says, "I have the reports. Should anyone need them, let them contact me."

Q. So everything was regular, under numbers, and in accordance with the rules, they were given proper burials.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any knowledge at all - any knowledge - as to the circumstances of any killing? You didn't witness any single killing.

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Do you know who killed him?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Do you know in any single case what weapon was used to kill that person?

A. I assume it was a weapon.

Q. Well, that's a logical assumption, but I'm asking you whether you know with any reliability what weapon was used.

A. No.

Q. And is it true that the Muslims that were examined by the pathologist and for whom a record was made, that you carried the bodies to the Muslim cemetery, which is called Kazambasca, as far as I see from my notes, in Zvornik? Is that right? ²¹³⁴⁸

A. Yes.

Q. And this occurred in the course of April and May 1992; is that right?

A. This went on all the time. In 1992 and 1993 burials were taking place.

Q. Yes. But the point is that the Muslims were buried at the Muslim cemetery, regularly and in accordance with - what shall I call it - the regular procedure applied in such cases.

A. Yes.

Q. So the people who did it did this work in the same way they would have done it in peacetime; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, since you make some reference to this, on page 4, paragraph 1, when you were in Zvornik receiving food from the canteen at Alhos, that you shared that food with the Muslims who had stayed in their homes in Zvornik.

A. Yes.

Q. And is it also true that you were able and that even -- you were even told to do that, that is, to transport Muslims who wanted to go somewhere, that this was not prohibited, and that you were allowed to give them a lift?

A. Yes.

Q. And those people - and I am referring primarily to Muslims that you transported and who left Zvornik - where did you drive them to mostly?

A. In the direction of Tuzla. ²¹³⁴⁹

Q. Tuzla? To Tuzla?

A. Yes. Crni Vrh, and from there they went on.

Q. And tell me, please: They were leaving Zvornik of their own free will. No one was forcing them to leave Zvornik, were they?

A. That's right.

Q. So they left of their own free will. They asked you to drive them up there, as far as Crni Vrh. You do that, and then from there they go on to Tuzla. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say -- no, to avoid any confusion: We were talking about the citizens that you assisted in going where they wanted to go. Now, will you explain to me, please, since you took part in the transport, you participated in the final stage, that is, the burial stage; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And there were other people who would bring bodies to a certain spot, and then you would pick them up from there in order to bury them; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So this actually means --

A. There were several groups collecting the bodies.

Q. But at the end, they all somehow were dealt with by you.

A. Yes.

Q. So during this main conflict in April, how many Muslims were killed in total then? Since you dealt with all of them in one way or another, how many of them were there in total during the conflict in April ²¹³⁵⁰ and May?

A. Well, I assume approximately about 100 or so.

Q. How is that when you collected only 50?

A. They were collected occasionally. This lasted over a longer period of time.

Q. I just wanted you to tell me what happened in April.

A. I see, in April. In April/May, about 50, maybe a little more.

Q. I see.

A. Fifty or maybe more.

Q. I see.

A. Yes. But this was a long time ago, and it's difficult to remember everything.

Q. Very well, Mr. 1775.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that the previous witness, who was dealing with the media, had included in his so-called expert report that the Serbian press did not report on thousands of bodies in the streets of Zvornik, as reported by your employee Florence Hartmann. And I asked him, if you remember, how he could have put that in his report, that it was a fabrication.

Here you are, you have a witness here who says that in April and May there were about 50 killed, and here you're using the figure of thousands of bodies.

JUDGE MAY: We are dealing with this witness and his evidence. Now, you've been told before you can make your points at the end, rather ²¹³⁵¹ than just taking up time -- taking up time during the examination of this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Everything is fine, Mr. May. I just wanted to draw your attention that the opposite side knows the truth full well, and yet they're bringing witnesses who are putting forth gross lies. They have this witness for a year and a half, and they're fully aware of the truth.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You also say -- but never mind. I won't ask you anything about that any more. I'm going to skip over some questions because, to tell you the truth, I don't want to go into all these details. I find the overall figures, total figure, quite sufficient.

The fuel that was used and all the other requirements you had, was that supplied by the utilities company of the town, providing all these communal services for the town; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you worked with this utilities company and the communal services; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the facility that was called Gero's slaughterhouse, for instance, was the procedure the same? I mean, with respect to the examinations performed by the pathologists, like it was in Alhos.

A. Only for a time it was. What was done and completed, we buried those bodies in Glumina. But afterwards, it wasn't done.

Q. Well, I assume the procedure was the same when the pathologists ^{21352 BLANK PAGE 21353} were there.

A. Yes.

Q. But as the pathologists themselves weren't from Zvornik and weren't able to be there all the time, so this procedure was not undertaken when there were no pathologists there.

A. That's right.

Q. What about some other procedure? Was there any other procedure?

A. No, there wasn't.

Q. And do you happen to know all the things that went on in those parts, the fighting that took place during those two months? But I don't want to ask you this in general terms. I don't want to tire you and make you remember all the details of what was going on. Let me just ask you this: Was it a general period when the Mosque Doves, the Dzamijski Golubovi, that we mentioned a moment ago, this group of people, when they would rove around town at night and the settlements round town and kill and loot Serbs and Serb houses? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember perhaps that this man Samir Misovic, who was known as Captain Almir - his alias was Captain Almir - that he was reinforced by an armed group from Kalesi [phoen] and Dzvinica [phoen], over 100 fighters, in fact?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember their leaders, Cazim Huremovic, Refik Ibrakic, Salih Malkic [phoen], Izet Smajlovic, Zijad Smajic [phoen], and so on, those men? Do you remember them? ²¹³⁵⁴

A. Yes.

Q. And for the most part, they would attack during the night -- not for the most part, but they attacked exclusively at night. They attacked the settlements around Zvornik, they looted the houses, burnt them down, destroyed them, and killed the Serb people; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember an attack that took place on the 17th of April? If you don't remember the exact date, let me remind you of what happened on that day. These groups of Muslim extremists attacked a Serb village by the name of Rastosnica in the Zvornik municipality.

A. Yes.

Q. Killing Zoran Bogdanovic and a number of other people who were there. And then they looted the whole village and set fire to it.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that it was against the village of Boskovici, once again in the Zvornik municipality, that on the 5th of May an attack was launched once again by these Muslim extremists, and on the occasion they killed nine Serbs?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm not going to read out their names here and now, but I assume you remember them.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that on the occasion these Muslim forces were led by Semso Muminovic, Dzemail Spahic, and Hajrudin Mesic, nicknamed Labud or "Swan"? ²¹³⁵⁵

A. Yes.

Q. And straight afterwards, on that same day, the 9th of May, in the morning hours, before noon, they attacked the village of Gornja Baljkovica and killed another 16 Serbs and then fully looted the village and burnt it to the ground.

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And do you know that the perpetrators are known? Do you know about that? Because at the time, people knew about this. Zvornik is not a big place. Ramiz Subacic from Memici was one perpetrator, then there was Jusuf Fargan from Kresivici, and the brothers Subasic Smajo and Smail, Dzigaric Husein, and Farid Kunzic from the Muslim village of Nezuk.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know anything about whether any steps were taken to prosecute these killers? Were they held accountable anywhere and by anyone?

A. No.

Q. And do you happen to remember another attack, one launched by these forces, this time in May 1992, on the Serb village of Rozanj?

A. Yes. It was Majevica.

Q. Yes. There were several attacks. And all the Serbs, the local inhabitants, had to leave the village.

A. Yes.

Q. At the beginning they first killed this man called Dragan Asceric already on the 23rd of May. I'm sure you'll remember that. And then on -- during several attacks they killed many more farmers, and all of them ²¹³⁵⁶ had to leave the village, otherwise, they would have all been killed there had.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember the fact, for example, that once again, one and a half months later, in the next round of attacks on that same -- in that same region and that village, that Bogosav Ostojic, Mitar Ostojic, Stanko Ostojic, Goran, they were all killed while they were going to mow the meadows? Do you remember that taking place?

A. Yes.

Q. So these were farmers, peasants, civilians going to mow the meadows and they were killed in violent fashion by the Muslim extremists in that village in July, when people and farmers generally mow meadows.

A. Yes.

Q. And then Dusan Filipovic was killed, and Veljko Filipovic with him, and Ilija Lazic and Rajo Lazic, and the Muslim forces then proceeded to loot and completely burn to the ground the village of Rajo. Is that right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And do you also remember that on the 27th of May, when these same Muslim extremists -- not the same ones in person, but the Muslim forces that they had in Zvornik region generally, set up an ambush on the Sarajevo-Zvornik road?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. They shot at the Serbs working in the bauxite mines. That means they shot at ordinary workers who were on a truck. ²¹³⁵⁷

A. Yes.

Q. And on the occasion, Novak Sukic was killed, Zoran Popovic was killed, Djordjo Mijatovic, Stevo Simic. You remember all these people?

A. Yes.

Q. They were all workers, miners, from the bauxite mine.

A. Yes, in Milici.

Q. They were taken prisoner and later killed. These were Milomir Vujadinovic. He was killed. You remember that? And a worker, a civilian who was also held prisoner and killed only because he was a Serb.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And do you remember on the 29th of May, when there was another ambush in the village of Sandici, on the Zvornik-Sarajevo road, when they killed Milosevic Milutin, and Jovo Blagojevic, as well as Dragica Matikosa, Miodrag Vorkapic, as well as Ivan Ivanovic, Dragan Petrovic, Vesna Krdzalic. Do you remember that taking place?

A. Yes. I did, because I had to go about the business of burying the bodies.

Q. Mr. 1775, I am asking you precisely the names of these people also because I know that you were the person who buried these individuals immediately after they were killed. So I assume that you had heard about them, because these were tragic events and it is impossible to forget them.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you also remember --

JUDGE MAY: It's time now for an adjournment. Twenty minutes. ²¹³⁵⁸ Witness B-1775, could you remember during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over. And that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

We'll adjourn now.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Witness, I'm asked to remind you, could you keep an eye on the microphone of the accused. And before you answer, could you make sure it's gone off. If you watch his microphone when he asks a question, see it go off, and then answer.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you said towards the end of the last session that you would be giving me 20 more minutes. I understood from your first explanation that I would have at least one and a half hours.

JUDGE MAY: No. It was the -- it was the adjournment which was 20 minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes. I wasn't listening, then. I wasn't listening carefully and understanding carefully what you were saying.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Mr. 1775, you've understood what's just been said? When my microphone is switched off, you start speaking. That's the technical side of it.

But I'm sure you'll remember the village of Odzacina, the Zvornik ²¹³⁵⁹ municipality, when these Muslim paramilitary forces on the 20th of June launched a sudden attack on the village, killing Vaso Tanaskovic on the occasion, Kosta Kostic, Cvjetko Kostic, Smilja -- she was a woman, Smilja Tanaskovic. Jovika Tanaskovic, another woman; and several other unidentified individuals. Do you remember that event?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember another attack on the village of Boskovici on the 1st of August, when -- the 1st of August, I'm talking about, I'm sure you'll recall the date -- when 26 Serbs were killed on that date alone in the village of Boskovici; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you happen to know that these attacks were launched by and carried out by a brigade under the command of Semso Muminovic from the village of Vitinica, once he had destroyed the whole village? And this kind of destruction of a village has the character of genocide. So do you know that for this particular operation, the brigade was later given the name of knightly or Gallant Brigade, that they became known as the Knights?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know about an event that took place on the 24th of August this time, when they attacked the Serb villages of Gornja Kamenica and burnt down all the houses there, even destroyed the cemetery, the Orthodox cemetery, killing Ljubomir Tomic, Dragomir Tomic, Milomir Kukolj, Radomir Kukolj? I assume you'll remember that?

A. Yes. ²¹³⁶⁰

Q. And do you remember also at the time, from Muslimansko Snogovo, the Muslim forces from Muslimansko Snogovo, Samar and Kamenica launched an attack on the civilian Serbian population in the Serb village of Snogovo, because there's a Serb Snogovo and a Muslim Snogovo. That's when these attacks were carried out. And on that occasion not only were civilians killed but there was heavy fighting in the area. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you'll remember the 24th of August, when the following were killed: Milovan Jasikovac -- he was killed with a baton. His feet were burnt. He was stabbed all over his body with a knife. His tongue was cut off, and he was also castrated. And they killed not only him but also Ilija Jasikovac and several other people. So do you remember these events taking place and what they did to those people?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember the fighting around Kamenica on the 28th of August, when the following were killed: Draga Kovacevic -- Drago Kovacevic, who was previously castrated. Rusica Josipovic; Milos Nikolic, who was burnt to death; Nedeljko Markovic; Zdravko Manojlovic, nicknamed Katovic [phoen]; Nada Mijatovic, Ratko Petrovic, Prelovac? Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember this, the event that took place on the main road running between Zvornik and Sehovici at a place called Crni Vrh, when the Muslim paramilitary formations attacked a column of vehicles carrying Serb civilians? Twelve people were killed on that occasion, and I'm sure ²¹³⁶¹ you'll remember that one of the passengers was a 21-year-old woman who was five months pregnant. She was hit in her stomach; the baby survived, but the mother died.

A. Yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The other way around; the baby died.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you remember the attack on Novo Selo, when Milisav Ilic and Zoran Ilic were killed and Vestko Markovic [phoen], Lazar Ilic, Spasa Ilic, Ikonija Ilic, and most of them had their throats slit. They were killed not with firearms but knives. They were slaughtered and then their bodies burnt. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And tell me this, please, Mr. 1775: Do you remember the sudden attack against the village of Setici when in the yard of the Pantic house they killed Mihajlo Pantic, who was 90 years of age, and then -- actually, he was all cut up, an old man of 90. As the experts say, he was -- his throat was slit and his back was all cut up. Then there was Cvija Pantic; she was a woman and she was 82 years old. Savo Pantic, he was 72; Desa Pantic, another woman, she was 65 years old; and Ljubica, a woman, she was 46 years old; Bosa Lukic, another woman, she was 65 years old; and Cvija Prelovic, another one. Do you remember this slaughter, the slaughter of these old people and women in Setici?

A. Yes. ²¹³⁶²

Q. And do you remember the attack on the village of Malesici, when they killed Zdravko Malesic, who was 70; Mihajlo Peric, he was over 90 years of age; Cvija Peric, she was 90 years old; Ljubica Peric, she was 50; Draga Kulic; Sara Vidovic; Pero Milosevic; and another woman from Majevica who happened to be visiting in the village. All the houses in that hamlet, the Malesici hamlet were burnt, having been previously looted. Do you remember that, Mr. 1775?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, now, since you had occasion to be -- to see those bodies close up: Do you remember that during the conflict between the Muslim forces and the Army of Republika Srpska in the area of Kamenica, Muslims captured and killed a large number of Serb soldiers? And when the bodies were discovered, some of them had been beheaded; others didn't have their legs and arms, and some bodies were cut up in pieces. Do you remember all those details, how the Serb soldiers were mutilated and massacred?

A. Yes. And there is footage of this at Vodjansko Brdo.

Q. And is it true that some of them were nailed and had steel blades stuck into them?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that in this condition the bodies were found of Uros Kazanovic; Radoslav Grabovic, whose body had one leg and one arm missing; Vlado Grabovic, who had his head missing; Savo Djokic, who had also been beheaded and on one leg a chain was found around the leg; Radisav Macanovic, whose throat had been slit; and Radomir Pavlovic, whose head had been cut off; then Miladin Ascevic, and Dragomir Bozic, whose ²¹³⁶³ bodies had been cut up and heads cut off and broken, crushed with a blunt object. Do you remember all those events?

A. Yes, I do. All this happened at Godzansko Brdo.

Q. And one man's body was without eyes, ears, and nose; is that right? And on one a 6-millimetre diameter steel rod had been thrust through his chest and his neck, and legs tied with steel wire; is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And the body of Radan Pavlovic had been cut up in pieces, and Sava Kazanovic, who had been beheaded and his chest attached to a tree trunk with a nail. Was that so?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, let us look at some other things that you mentioned here. Is it true that there was, in Zvornik, a commission for cleaning up the battlegrounds? You speak about this on page 6, paragraph 10.

A. Yes.

Q. As I do not wish to mention any names, on page 6 in paragraph 10, you say that a certain man who was a member of that commission gave you instructions; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it correct that he gave you instructions as to the transport of dead Serb soldiers from the frontline? Is that right?

A. Yes, of both sides.

Q. And then he advised you to go to the technical school at Karakaj and Celopek and so on.

A. Yes. ^{21364 BLANK PAGE 21365}

Q. Since you refer to a certain number of those dead people and you give a certain figure, I understood what you said on page 2 in your supplementary statement, that each body was in a black or white plastic bag and it was given a number, and that the number was placed in the bag together with the body and then the bodies were buried. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In your opinion, the authorities and you yourself who were doing the actual work did everything you could to keep their bodily remains intact so that they could later be identified and taken over by family members, as should be done in accordance with the regulations in such cases; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 5, paragraph 7, you speak of the transfer from Drinjaca to Gero's slaughterhouse, where the pathologists were at that time, weren't they? And then you say that you saw a pile of bodies, some of which were in uniform, others in civilian clothing. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that they were all male, Muslims, that you saw that they had been killed with fire from automatic weapons. Since you said that you were on a moving truck on this particular occasion, which you didn't leave, how could you see from a moving truck - just explain that to me, please - to see not only that they were dead but also how they had been killed, what weapons had been used, and so on? Am I right in assuming that these are assumptions on your part?

A. When I arrived, they were all on a pile, all these dead bodies, so ²¹³⁶⁶ these are my assumptions.

Q. That is what I wanted to hear. So you didn't see any of this. You didn't see what weapons were used, nor where, nor how but you are assuming that they were killed with firearms, automatic or semi-automatic or non-automatic. I assume that you weren't specific in your statement anyway.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And you say that you loaded onto the truck 15 or 20 bodies and that another 15 to 20 remained.

A. Maybe even more remained.

Q. And you transported them from the culture centre in Celopek - you have this on page 6, paragraph 1 - "The guards said that some Muslims had died there." Is that right, the guards at the gate? And were there cases of some people dying rather than being killed among the bodies that you transported?

A. There were killed people and there were also people who had died. And there were some who went on a hunger strike and died.

Q. But you could not make a distinction as to whether they had been killed. Well, of course, those who died, they died without any weapons being used. But in the case of those who -- whose death was caused by the use of firearms, you could not assume who was killed in battle or who may have been killed in some other -- under some other circumstances; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as I'm able to gather, where the bodies were collected, ²¹³⁶⁷ once you saw them there, you didn't know whether they had been killed or whether they died, because they were brought there.

A. No, no, they were killed there, on that spot.

Q. How do you know, when you were not present?

A. That's what people said.

Q. All right. Now, please, on page 6, in the fifth paragraph, you say - and that is something I wish to clear up with you - when you say that that is what people said, that these were bodies of Muslims who, as you say, were shot and killed. In the Serbian variant of the language, we would say "streljan" or "executed" for those who were executed, whereas, in the Croatian variant, they say "ustreljen", for those executed. But tell me, please, do you have any knowledge when you say some people were executed, or do you use the term to mean that they were shot with firearms? I don't know whether you understand my question.

A. Yes, I do. Yes.

Q. So when you say "ustreljen", you mean killed by the use of firearms, not executed; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So I just wanted to clear that up, because according to the Croatian version, "ustreljen" means "streljan" and, being a Serb, I don't think that you would use that term for somebody who was not executed but was hit by a bullet from a firearm and was killed. So you don't have any knowledge as to anyone actually being executed, do you?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please: As you were talking about the way the bodies ²¹³⁶⁸ were marked in the bags, you also mention a wooden stick or a metal plate with the number carved in. Is it true that those numbers corresponded to the documents used by the pathologists who were doing the postmortems and that they were done in that way precisely for the purpose of identification?

A. Yes.

Q. In your supplementary statement, on page 3, you say that in 1992 some people were transferred to the cultural centre in Pilica and that a certain number of people were killed in the cultural centre and that they were buried in Pilica. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Is that what you said?

A. That is a mistake.

Q. I thought it was a mistake. Because by checking out the information, I couldn't believe that you could have said such a thing. So that is not correct.

A. They were transferred from the cultural centre in Pilica, from Pilica to Bijeljina, and then exchanged.

Q. Thank you for this additional information, because I didn't even ask you that question. But I'm very glad that you provided that additional explanation, which is very important. So they were transferred from the cultural centre, driven to Bijeljina in order to be exchanged there, where they were in fact exchanged.

A. Yes.

Q. I've already asked you this in a way, when we were talking about ²¹³⁶⁹ Zvornik, but to be quite sure, as we are now talking about the entire area and your entire testimony about what you were doing throughout that period, did I come to the proper conclusion that you were not an eyewitness of a single murder or killing, be it of an individual or a group or of any battling, for that matter?

A. No, I was not.

Q. So what I'm saying is correct?

A. No.

Q. Did you witness a killing?

A. No, I was never a witness of anything.

Q. So let's make it quite clear. My question was: Is it right that you were not a witness?

A. Yes, it is right.

Q. Now, tell me, please -- let me just see where I noted this down. The only shooting that you were a witness of was when you were shot at from Kula Grad, when you were collecting bodies in Zvornik; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that is what I was able to gather from your statement and from your testimony.

On page 4, paragraph 1 of your supplementary statement, will you please explain this for me; you talk about the transfer of bodies from Bijeli Potok to Crni Vrh and Konjevica Polje. You say that you saw two trucks passing through Karakaj and then you followed the trucks in your own car and they stopped next to the mass grave that had already been dug, 6 metres deep, 2 to 3 metres wide. Could you explain what this was all ²¹³⁷⁰ about? Because it's not quite clear. True enough, I didn't have enough time to look at it carefully because you were moved up.

A. They were transferring bodies from another grave to this one. They were digging them up and burying them again.

Q. Do you know any reason for this? I asked you why this was being done. Why were bodies moved from one grave to another?

A. I don't know.

Q. Were those bodies identified, the bodies who were buried there? Was that grave exhumed?

A. I heard that it was.

Q. But you don't know whether they were identified and what happened in that connection?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You say that you hid on a hill which was about 50 metres away from the grave, from the tomb. Why were you hiding at all? Were you in any kind of danger?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you come to the conclusion that you were in danger?

A. No one should know if I went to see this.

Q. I think -- just tell me whether my thinking is logical. I think that you assumed that someone was doing something in secret; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And because you assumed that they were doing something in secret, you felt that for your own safety it was better for that person or those ²¹³⁷¹ persons doing something in secret not knowing that you were witnessing it. And could you establish who those people were who were doing that?

A. No.

Q. They weren't masked, I assume.

A. Well, they weren't masked, but they were a long way away and I wasn't able to recognise them.

Q. That's all I wanted to clear up, to see whether we could arrive at some more facts about that.

All right. You say you weren't able to identify the people, but were you able to establish whose trucks they were or things like that? You weren't able to do that either?

A. Well, there were no license plates, there was nothing written on them.

Q. Now, as this was done from one to another, you don't know how those people were killed or came to have that fate and how they were transferred from one burial site to another, and you're certain that the burial site was exhumed; right?

A. Yes, the grave was exhumed. Now, how, in what way, I really can't say. I don't know.

Q. And where is the grave located? Where is it on your map? We don't have to take out the map and lose time over that, but where was it? Just tell me.

A. Crni Vrh.

Q. Ah, Crni Vrh. Right. Very well. Now, I've made a note of something here while you were ²¹³⁷² testifying. You said -- let's see, six localities, six locations, sites that I noted down. Please put me right if I'm wrong. So the village of Pilica, Sahbegovici, Crni Vrh, Glumina, Kamenica, and Drinjaca. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Have I omitted some place?

A. Jusici.

Q. Jusici, right. So Jusici, one more. Now, tell me this, please: In which period of time were you there taking over the bodies, these dead people, and taking them off to be buried, as you said mostly to the Muslim cemetery? I don't want to have to search for its name, it's not important. But what period of time was this? When were you doing this? When were you doing that job?

A. From 1992 to 1995.

Q. So that means a full three years.

A. Yes.

Q. Right. Now, during those three years, can you roughly tell me what was the total number of bodies of those persons, Muslims, who were killed that you buried? How many?

A. Well, I can't remember, because it was a long time ago and all the rest of it. But not to exaggerate, let me say about 500 corpses. 500 corpses in the space of three years. Yes, that's right. That's my assumption.

Q. All right. That's your estimate on the basis of what you did, and everything passed through your hands; right? ²¹³⁷³

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me this: Is it true and correct that for the line, for the fighters, for the frontline, you transported 5.000 coffins for the killed Serbs? Is that right?

A. Exact. Yes, right.

Q. And where were those people buried?

A. Our Serbs, our fighters, were buried and so were the Muslims.

Q. Now, these people, were they killed up at the frontline in your area where the fighting was going on? That's right, isn't it?

A. It is from Bijeljina to Vlasenica.

Q. Are you talking about the frontline from Bijeljina to Vlasenica? That's what you're talking about; right? And that's where you transported these 5.000 coffins.

A. Well, yes. But they went off in other directions too, not only to that place.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you should be told that you have ten minutes left for your hour and a half.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should like to --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to thank the witness. I think that he has provided me the answers to all the essential questions that I had to ask him, without entering into too much detail.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for giving me the floor. I have just one brief topic to deal with in open ²¹³⁷⁴ session, and then several other questions in private session, please. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke about the fact that a portion of people, especially young Muslims, at their own desire you transported and drove off towards Tuzla. Can you tell us how many there were of these young Muslims and also other people of different ages whom you drove towards Tuzla during that period of time?

A. I transported two soldiers who had come from Serbia, and about seven elderly persons from Zvornik. There you have it.

Q. But I'm interested in something else. Towards Serbia was there -- were there Muslims leaving who wanted to escape the conflicts or who were in jeopardy? So were there Muslims fleeing to Serbia and from thence to other people [as interpreted].

A. A large number.

Q. I see, a large number. Can you give us a rough idea of how many? Did they go of their own free will? Did they go voluntarily?

A. Many of them went to Serbia. I can't give you an exact figure.

Q. And were there Serbs of Serb ethnicity who were leaving Bosnia because they were afraid they would lose their lives?

A. Yes, that's right; there were Serbs too.

Q. Could you give us a rough estimate of the number? Was it a large number?

A. Yes, a large number of people that was.

Q. Thank you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May we go into private session ²¹³⁷⁵ for a few moments now, please, Your Honours.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, the 5.000 coffins that you mentioned in your statement on page 6 and that Mr. Milosevic has asked you about, to be clear, these coffins are coffins with bodies in them or these are empty coffins?

A. Empty coffins.

Q. And these coffins were designated for the frontline to be used to bury Serb soldiers or Serb and Muslim soldiers?

A. Serb and Muslim as well.

Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic went through a rather lengthy list of people who had been killed and described some of their brutal injuries. I just want to ask you a few detailed questions about that. Can you tell us again, what were the injuries that this Radomir Pavlovic suffered?

A. Well, I can't remember that, but I know the details. I know that I went there, took over the body. There were all sorts of injuries. But I can't remember. It was a long time ago, a long time ago. It's not that there were just five or six or ten of them. There were a great many of them, so I can't remember on whichever side, either on one side or as to the other side.

Q. How about Mr. Dragomir Bozic? Do you have a specific memory -- recollection today what his injuries were?

A. To be quite frank, I can't remember all the injuries and how each individual one was injured. But I just remember the places I went to and how I took over the bodies. Now, as to the injuries, I can't remember ²¹³⁷⁹ because they were usually in bags and wrapped up in blankets and then we would load them up and drive off. So I didn't look.

Q. So at least -- and these -- for the case of these two particular men, when Mr. Milosevic described their specific injuries, you have no independent recollection of whether or not his description of those injuries were correct.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, objection. The question is not one that is proper because it is one thing when I tell the witness the name of the village, the place, the date, and all the rest of it, and then I quote the name of the man in question, and it's quite another thing when Mr. Groome asks him out of the blue from all this mass of facts just a name and surname. Then of course it is impossible for the witness to remember in that way, without having the preliminary details quoted to him. So I think that the question is quite improper because it is impossible for him to know off the bat the names of the people, of course, with the injuries. But it is understandable, reasonable, logical when I quote the time, the place, the location, and the people in question, then he will remember.

Mr. Groome is intentionally asking him in the way in which the witness cannot remember.

JUDGE MAY: What the witness can be asked is this: These events took place ten years ago. Do you have - as he was asked - any independent recollection of these particular events or specific injuries? If he has, he can tell us. If he hasn't, then he can tell us that too. Now, Mr. Groome, would you like to rephrase your question in that ²¹³⁸⁰ way, effectively repeating it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. You've heard His Honour's question to you. Do you have an independent recollection today about these -- these particular cases?

A. I don't remember the injuries because it wasn't my custom to look at them.

Q. So the injuries that Mr. Milosevic put to you, is it your testimony that you did not yourself look at the condition of these bodies and make those observations yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a matter that you heard that these people suffered this type of injuries? Is that how you have this information?

A. Yes.

Q. And you heard about this information from what sources? From newspapers or radio or individuals? Can you please describe.

A. On the radio and in the newspapers.

Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic put to you - I'm just quoting a passage of the record - "Yes, but the point is that the Muslims were buried at the Muslim cemetery regularly and in accordance with regular procedure applied in such cases." And I believe you said that that was true. Is that correct?

A. Yes, a portion of them.

Q. Now, did there come a time in Zvornik that the Muslim cemetery became filled and there was no more room for additional burials, or was there always room to expand the number of graves at the cemetery?

A. The cemeteries were full. ²¹³⁸¹

Q. Now, the regular procedure for a Muslim being buried - correct me if I'm wrong - is that a monument or a pillar is placed at the head of the grave and at the foot of the grave; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you've described to us - and I'm quoting you now from the record, in reference to Glumina - "Well, that's where 200 to 250 bodies were buried in sacks, and they were numbered and they were in two rows." The question I have for you now is: Was Glumina a Muslim cemetery?

A. Yes.

Q. And were the bodies that were buried at Glumina, were they buried according to the procedure that you've just described, the pillar at the head and the pillar at the foot of the -- of the body?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you -- in response to questions put to you by the accused, you talked about a reburial. I want to ask you a few questions about that reburial. Do you know who ordered the reburial of those bodies?

A. From the Municipality.

Q. You need to --

A. N1 and N2.

Q. And do you know -- how do you know that those two people ordered the -- the removal or the reburial of those bodies?

A. Well, N3 and N4 passed it on to me.

Q. And that's the names listed on tab 2 of Prosecution Exhibit 452, that list of names?

A. [No audible response] ²¹³⁸²

Q. You need to answer verbally for the record.

A. Yes.

Q. You said that you thought that the reburial of the bodies was done in secret. What was it about what you observed that made you believe that it was being done in secret?

A. Well, so that it wouldn't be discovered. They were transported from one to another so that it wouldn't be found out.

Q. And from where precisely were the bodies taken and where precisely were the bodies moved to?

A. I don't know. Where they were taken from, I don't know. But where they were transported later on, then those from the international organisation did that, at Crni Vrh.

Q. And can you describe what equipment was used to -- to rebury these bodies.

A. They were just thrown.

Q. Thrown from what?

A. Well, they were dug up and unloaded there.

Q. Was there any heavy equipment used, such as bulldozers or backhoes or the like?

A. Yes, there were. There were machines like that up there.

Q. And did you see them being used to move these bodies?

A. Well, if they were there, they must have been used. That's quite usual.

Q. And my last question to you is: Are you able to approximate for us the number of bodies that you saw being removed and reburied in this ²¹³⁸³ fashion?

A. [No audible response]

Q. And you need to answer for the record.

A. No, I can't do that. I don't know.

Q. Are you able to estimate for us the number of trucks that were used in this operation?

A. I don't know that either.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that there has been a misunderstanding. May I just ask one additional question of this witness, just one additional question --

JUDGE MAY: No.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to deal with the misunderstanding because --

JUDGE MAY: What is the misunderstanding that you want clarified?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wanted to ask the witness this: As I understand from his answers, which were affirmative, I understood that you had personally seen some bodies without a head or without arms and legs or butchered. Is that right or not? Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with it in this way: You are now being asked about, as I understand it, the mutilation of the Serb bodies. And you just said to the Prosecutor that this was information which you ²¹³⁸⁴ had received from radio and television. Is that right, or did you see any such mutilation on any body yourself? And if so, could you tell us which.

A. There were mutilated bodies, without arms and without heads and without legs, disemboweled, their guts spilled. I remember that. That is something that I remember seeing

JUDGE MAY: Where did you see that, can you tell us, and when?

A. I saw that at Vis, when the attack was launched there, Setici, there were people who had been burnt, in Malesici too, and Rastosnica, as far as I can recollect just now. And also, there was in Kamenica at Glodjarsko Brdo, people without heads. And this was filmed on television, me taking a body and reuniting it -- taking a head and reuniting it with the body.

JUDGE MAY: And help us with this: When did these events occur?

A. These events -- I can't remember when they occurred. I don't remember the date or the period.

JUDGE MAY: Just roughly. Was it after the events in Zvornik that you first described when you were sent round collecting the bodies? Were these events after that or before?

A. After. It was afterwards.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. That concludes your evidence, Witness B-1775. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. Just wait a moment while the blinds are pulled down.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Before the next witness is called, I will give a short ²¹³⁸⁵ ruling in relation to the statement of Mr. Suad Zafic [phoen]. The Prosecution applied for provisional admission of this witness's statement under Rule 92 bis. It relates to the takeover of the Bratunac municipality, the witness's detention, and the subsequent execution of 29 men.

The evidence to be given is cumulative as it deals with the takeover of the Bratunac municipality, about which evidence has been given. The statement is capable of admission under Rule 92 bis and admissible under that Rule, provided, of course, the various formalities are gone through. If they are gone through properly, then the statement can be admitted together with, it should be said, the witness being required to appear for cross-examination.

Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is B-1455 -- I'm sorry, 1455 -- sorry, 1445. My apologies.

JUDGE KWON: We are told 1455.

MR. GROOME: My apology. It is 1455.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1455

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that a binder of four ²¹³⁸⁶ exhibits be assigned a number at this stage.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 454. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony before the Tribunal by taking a look at Prosecution Exhibit 454, tab 1. I want to draw your attention to the -- the name on the first line and ask you, is that your name?

A. Yes, that is my name.

Q. And does the information contained in the right-hand column accurately reflect your professional and educational background?

A. Yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness move closer to the microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: You're being asked if you would, Mr. Witness, to move closer to the microphone so that we can all hear you. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that an exhibit number be assigned to the 92 bis package prepared for this witness.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 455, under seal.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, the Chamber is in possession of your statement. I simply want to draw your attention to a particular portion of your statement and ask you some detailed questions about it. The portion of your statement I would like to draw your attention to is: Did there come a time when you, along with others, were detained in the Dom culture centre in Drinjaca?

A. Yes, I was detained in the cultural centre in Drinjaca on the 30th ²¹³⁸⁷ of May, 1992.

Q. Can you describe the circumstances of how you and the other people there came to be collected and detained in that centre.

A. On that same day, units of the reserve force of the JNA, together with local Serbs, came to our village and rounded up all the population they found there.

Q. And was the entire population that was present on that day placed in the Dom culture centre?

A. All the population that was there on that day was driven to the cultural centre at Drinjaca.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 2.

MR. GROOME: For the convenience of the Court, there was a separate copy of this placed in this binder and it's under tab 2, but perhaps we can withdraw it after this witness testifies. It was used with the previous witness.

Q. Sir, do you recognise the building depicted in Prosecution Exhibit 452, tab 12?

A. Yes, I do. This is the cultural centre in Drinjaca, which I know very well. Behind it is the school that I attended for eight years.

Q. And approximately how many people altogether were gathered in this school?

MR. GROOME: And thank you to the usher. I'm finished with that photograph.

A. Excuse me. I didn't understand the question. ^{21388 BLANK PAGE 21389}

Q. Approximately how many people altogether were gathered in the school at the time they were first detained in the school -- I'm sorry, in the cultural centre?

A. In the cultural centre, there were gathered 91 men, and I don't know the exact number of women and children. I think there were another 150 of them.

Q. Did there come a time when an army officer entered the cultural centre and addressed the people there?

A. Yes. An officer entered. He was a lieutenant by rank. His name was Branko Studen.

Q. Before I ask you what he said, what was the ethnicity of the people that were gathered in the cultural centre?

A. All the people gathered in the cultural centre in Drinjaca were of Muslim faith and Bosniak nationality.

Q. This lieutenant, did he address the group? And if so, what did he say?

A. He did address the people. He addressed us. He first greeted us, and he said, "People, I know that you've done nothing wrong. I heard that from many people who are Serbs and who lived here together with you. You had good neighbourly relations. And I can guarantee that nothing will happen to you. Nevertheless, we will have to move you from your places of residence in Kostijerevo and Drinjaca, and you will probably be exchanged for Serbs living in Zenica, who, according to what he said, were having problems with the Muslim population over there, and that they will come to your houses, to your homes and inherit your property and you will go over ²¹³⁹⁰ there to inherit their homes and their property. I believe that that will be better for both peoples."

Q. Did he make any statement about other people coming to the cultural centre to see the group there?

A. Yes. After this address - I can't say exactly how long it took, 15 to 20 minutes - he said, "I will go now and some men will come here to question you about certain military matters. These are people who specialise in military affairs. Don't be afraid. I've already told you that nothing will happen to you, no harm will befall you."

Q. Sir, did there come a time when the women and children were taken out of the cultural centre?

A. Yes. Before he left, before he walked out, he ordered that the women and children have to leave the hall and that they would go in the direction of Tuzla, whereas we would follow them shortly, after being questioned by these military experts.

Q. Now, after Lieutenant Studen left, did there come a time when some other men did in fact come to the cultural centre?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was the approximate period of time between the time Lieutenant Studen left and the arrival of these people?

A. I think around 15 minutes went by.

Q. Can you describe the people who came to the -- the centre 15 minutes later.

A. When Branko Studen left, one of the soldiers who were guarding us and standing around us with their weapons pointed at us said that we ²¹³⁹¹ should bend down our heads and put them between our knees as far as we were able. And we did that, and we waited. And 15 minutes later we heard behind our backs a strong banging on the door, and these people entered who were supposed to question us, but not to question us but they were carrying in their hands, as I saw well, metal sticks, wooden sticks. One of them even had a police truncheon. There were six of them.

Q. Can you describe what you recall about what, if any, uniform they were wearing.

A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. They were armed with pistols hanging at the side, of the Skorpion brand. They had Rambo-type knives as we called them. They had black gloves with the fingers cut off, black caps rolled up. But this one who led them was not as tall as the rest. He wore a beard. He had dark glasses, and he had a hat on his head.

Q. Based upon your experience, what you had prior to this date, did you draw a conclusion regarding what unit these men belonged to, based upon what they were wearing?

A. Based on the uniforms they wore, they looked most like members of Arkan's unit. But I cannot say that with certainty because I don't know whether they really were members of his unit.

Q. What happened after they arrived?

A. They ordered us to get up immediately, all of us, and then he said, "Let's hear some Chetnik songs." I had never sung Chetnik songs, nor am I familiar with them. I noticed among the people who were so afraid that they said, "Let's sing," but no one could start singing ²¹³⁹² because people didn't know those songs.

Q. What happened after that?

A. Then he said, this man that I thought was in command because he was most provocative, this one who was shorter in height, wearing a camouflage uniform with a beard and glasses, "And now you're going to sing," he said. And people started to be taken out onto the stage and to be beaten up.

Q. And were they beaten with -- by hands, or were weapons used in the beating of these people?

A. They used what they were carrying in their hands, that is, metal bars and wooden sticks and this truncheon that I also saw, a police truncheon.

Q. And for what period of time did these beatings persist?

A. The beatings lasted right up until the evening, about 9.00 or 9.30. I didn't have a watch on, but I could notice through the windows that darkness had started falling, so it could have been around that time. Up until then, they continued beating the people.

Q. After the beatings were finished, did this group of men leave?

A. Yes. They ordered us again to bend our heads as far down as we could, to our knees.

Q. Did there come a time when another group of men entered the hall?

A. Yes. Again, we were standing like that for a while, maybe 15 or 20 minutes with our heads bent down.

Q. During the period of time that you were in the hall between the groups, would it have been possible for you and the other men there to ²¹³⁹³ have left the hall?

A. No.

Q. Who was guarding -- or who was preventing you from leaving the hall?

A. A unit of the reserve force of the Yugoslav People's Army was always present, together with the local troops or members of that unit that were locals.

Q. Can you describe what happened after this other group arrived.

A. When this other group arrived, they ordered us to raise our heads and we looked at them. That was a unit that had never been there during the day. Nobody had noticed them. They were wearing uniforms that we knew were uniforms that used to be worn by the Chetniks during the Second World War.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a small correction in connection with the transcript. I think it's a misunderstanding. I thought the witness said that it was a JNA unit that was there, was composed of reservists of the local population. Is that right?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's what he said.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there was a unit of the reserve force of the Yugoslav People's Army wearing uniforms, together with people who were also present who were attached to that unit and who were people who lived there in Drinjaca, who were attached to them. But there were very few from the area of Drinjaca, in fact. ²¹³⁹⁴

JUDGE MAY: No. Wait a minute. You can ask questions in due course, Mr. Milosevic.

It looks at the moment that we're to adjourn, in fact. Witness B-1455, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. In this adjournment and any others there may be in the case, please don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over. And that does include members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, inside the Drinjaca culture centre, without telling us their names or identifying -- or saying anything about them that would identify you, can you tell us what other members of your family were present at that time.

A. Yes. My father and three brothers were there.

Q. Now, did there come a time when these -- the second group of men who came in began to take out of the some detainees from the hall?

A. Yes. When they entered, I noticed that they had on them these Chetnik uniforms. One could clearly see on their caps the so-called cockades. Some weren't wearing such hats. Some had some emblems that looked like eagles. And I also noticed that among them there were some that seemed to be rather tipsy. They were cracking jokes and kicking each other jokingly. And then we heard a voice say, "Down with your heads, you ²¹³⁹⁵ Turks, you balijas." They used all kind of derogatory terms in addressing us, and we bent down our heads.

Then someone -- one of them was saying, "We need ten volunteers." I didn't dare apply. And no one did; no one volunteered. And then they said, "Why won't you volunteer? I have been a volunteer for so long and you don't want to be a volunteer. If you won't volunteer, I will choose." And we were listening to this. And then they counted up to ten; one, two, up to ten. "Do we have ten? Yes, we do." Then I heard chairs screeching, they were taking the men out. And then I heard, "Hurry out, you Turkish and Muslim motherfuckers." And I heard them hitting them and beating them, and one or two would scream out in pain. And they took them outside the hall. And then I heard them walking round the building, and they passed on our left side, and we heard bursts of fire coming from there. So I knew immediately that there were executions going on. Five minutes later or maybe ten minutes later - I can't be precise about that - they reentered the hall, and again they were looking for ten men. Again no one volunteered. And again, they counted up to ten, and once they had chosen the ten, they would take them round the building to the left of the cultural centre and I would hear bursts of fire at the same spot. This was repeated four times, until they came for the fifth time, and a soldier hit me with the -- with his gun and he said, "Get up. It's your turn." And when I got up, and they ordered me to go towards the exit, I saw that my father was waiting with me for the execution and some neighbours that I recognised very well. And then I saw another brother sitting in a row in front of me, and I noticed that already half the ²¹³⁹⁶ people in the hall were missing.

And then in the same way they started hitting us with their rifle butts, cursing our Muslim and balija mothers, and calling us all other -- all kinds of names. And as we went out, there were two rows of soldiers. We had to pass between them. And the light was turned off, so you could see from the light coming from the hall, you could see the soldiers a little bit. But I didn't dare look at them.

Then we went down the steps, as can be seen on this photograph, and then they ordered us to go to the left, in the same direction in which the other people had been taken. I saw them well. They all had -- there were many of them. They all had their rifles pointed at us. When we got close to the spot, one of the members of my group cried out, "Let's flee, men. They'll kill us all." They were close by, maybe 7 or 8 metres away. I think there were six or seven of them. And they had already received orders, "Shoot. What are you waiting for?" And they opened fire at us. I got a bullet in my left side here, and I fell on my stomach straight away.

Q. Sir, let me ask you a few questions up until that point of the account. You've indicated -- or you've pointed to, when you were referring to where you were injured, you pointed to your left hip area; is that correct?

A. Yes. I was hit here in the left hip. But fortunately, the bullet passed through the tissue. It didn't affect the bone. And I fell on my stomach. I could hear continued bursts of fire, people were falling. And when this was over, then they examined the people to see whether anyone ²¹³⁹⁷ may have survived. A soldier came up to me and kicked me in the behind, and he said, "I think this one is still alive." And the other one said, "Well, what are you waiting for? Fire a couple of more bullets at him." And then he fired a burst of fire in my back. So I got one bullet here in the right shoulder blade, and it came out here in the front. It was an entry and exit wound. The pain was so strong that I only just managed to remain conscious. And I felt as if I was falling down a precipice. I had black lights before my eyes. But I remained conscious and I could hear them talking as the blood streamed down my body. They started crying out at one another. They started screaming, shooting into the air. And then one said, "What are we going to do? We don't have any more ammunition." And the other one said, "What do you mean? There's several more boxes in the centre down there." And then they left.

I heard him pass by me. When I was quite certain that there was no one left next to me, I tried to get up, but this arm was completely out of action, so I slowly got up on my feet, holding my arm, and then in a couple of seconds I saw many men around me, lying dead. I ran by the school that was nearby, but in the school playground, which was perhaps some 20 metres away from the cultural centre, there's just a fence separating them. As I ran by the school, I saw another group of people lying dead. They were dead. And one man was still crying out in pain. He was probably so badly wounded that he still hadn't passed away. He was crying out for help, but I just ran on to save my own life.

Q. Sir, just -- you've indicated, and you --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Groome. ²¹³⁹⁸

MR. GROOME:

Q. When you were referring to your arm, you were indicating with your hand your right arm. Is it your right arm that you felt -- or you couldn't feel as you were lying on the ground?

A. My right one. Yes, my right arm.

Q. And you've also indicated your injury. Just so that the record reflects what you pointed to, you pointed to your back -- your back near the right shoulder as the entry wound and you pointed to the front part of your right shoulder as the exit wound; is that correct?

A. [No audible response]

Q. I need to hear your answer for the record.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Can you please continue.

A. I continued running in the direction of my village, Kostijerevo. I ran across some meadows. And there's an Orthodox cemetery there that I am familiar with, very well-acquainted with. And then there's the woods that start there, about 500 metres from the Dom, the cultural centre, which remained behind me. I couldn't run any further because I was exhausted and my wounds were hurting me a great deal. While I was running upwards, I heard the gunshots being fired down by the Dom. When I entered the woods or forest, I laid down a little bit because I realised that I was losing consciousness, and I held onto the shrubs to avoid losing consciousness. And I wanted to see what my wound looked like, so I took a finger and placed my entire index finger into the hollow of the wound, and it went straight through. I thought everything ²¹³⁹⁹ was hollow, but it wasn't. I pulled out my finger, and the wound was enormous. And then I placed all my clothing across the wound and held it in place like this.

Through the branches of the trees, I was able to distinguish some streetlights by the Dom, the centre. I wasn't able to see the soldiers, but I did hear on three or four -- three or four intervals, five or ten minutes away from each other, these bursts of gunfire. And then I realised and was quite certain that all the people that I had seen and what I had experienced, that they had in fact all been shot.

Q. Sir, from that vantage point, were you able to see a truck arrive at the cultural centre?

A. While I was sitting there and having a rest, some 20 minutes later, after the shooting had stopped, a struck switched on its engines, its motor, 100 metres from the centre, and it reached the spot where the actual shooting had taken place. You could hear the truck doors being opened, because it made a noise, and then I heard the voice of a man. I think it was a Serb. I would say he was a Serb probably from the village of Drinjaca. And when he saw all these people, he shouted out, "People, what have you done? What's all this? What have you done?" And he repeated this several times over, until they quietened him. Something was going on. I couldn't see exactly what was happening, because it was too far away and it was night-time as well. Now, the truck doors closed again. I saw them -- I heard them being closed, rather, the sides -- the side doors of the truck some half an hour later, and the truck went back to the shop, which is about 100 metres away ^{21400 BLANK PAGE 21401} from the centre, the cultural centre, and the engines were switched off again, the motor was switched off again. And then I continued moving towards my village, but I didn't dare enter the village itself. I went around the outskirts. And after I had gone 100 to 150 metres to the next forest across a meadow, I happened to see some lights which were moving around the village, being flashed round the village, and suddenly the houses were alight and I heard some people talking further down, people who had -- who were setting fire to the houses, but I didn't dare move. All I could do was watch the houses burning.

Once they had finished setting fire to the houses, they continued along the path that I had crossed, or road I had crossed, across the meadow, and they went on further towards the houses in my village. But the houses that were closest by, let's say some 300 metres away, they didn't set fire to those houses. I assumed that they knew - and I know those houses very well - people -- they belonged to people who worked abroad and they were well-to-do people, so I assumed they wanted to loot the houses first. That's why they spared them, didn't set fire to them straight away.

Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention back to the cultural centre. Did your father and brothers survive what occurred in the cultural centre that night?

A. No, unfortunately, they did not survive the shooting. They were executed that evening. And in 1998 their bodies were exhumed in the village of Glumina, and the location was called Ramin Grob. All the victims were pulled out - there were some others from the village - and ²¹⁴⁰² then they appealed to us via the media from the villages of Drinjaca -- or rather, the municipality of Drinjaca and some other villages, because when they found some documents, they were able to establish that they were people who were not natives of Drinjaca or the surrounding villages -- who were --

THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, who were natives of Drinjaca and the surrounding villages.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And we were invited to come to Tuzla to a commemorative centre there to identify the bodies that were laid out there.

There were a lot of people present during this identification process.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Before we get to that, if I can just ask you a few questions. Are you aware of anybody other than you that survived from -- what happened in the cultural centre that night?

A. Yes; two other men survived.

Q. I'll ask you not to mention their names. Did there come a time when you made a list of all the people that you could recall were present that night?

A. Yes. Yes, that's right. I did make a list of the people whom I was with in the cultural centre. And those lists have been sent on to various places, to the state media, the local media, The Hague Tribunal, and so on.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit ²¹⁴⁰³ 454, tab 3. And my question to you is: Is this one of the lists that you yourself made of the victims of what happened in Drinjaca?

A. Yes, these are the lists of people. And I compiled the lists myself personally. On the list are all the people who were detained that particular day, except for the five people I mention who were shot in the village, who tried to resist the arrest, and they were shot on the spot, executed on the spot. Their bodies were later found and buried as deemed fit. I didn't see the shooting of those people myself, but they put up a resistance, according to what others said, having been in the woods round about and saw the shooting going on, so that there is clear-cut evidence that they were in fact shot by this army and later on they were buried in a dignified manner. That's as far as those five individuals go. As to all the others on the list, they were all people who were incarcerated in Drinjaca with me, and I'm quite sure that those people were shot, they were executed. We have the documents from the Ministry of the Interior, the Tuzla canton, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the commission for collecting facts, et cetera.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: I'll just point out to the Chamber that the English translation of that exhibit does not repeat the names contained in the original. So in order to properly use the English translation, one must refer to the original.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you took a look at -- well, let me, before I do that -- I'm sorry. Did you actually go to Glumina, the site where the bodies were exhumed from? ²¹⁴⁰⁴

A. No, I did not go to Glumina, where the bodies were uncovered, because I never again went back to my native village or my native municipality for the fear that you can well imagine that I feel. But I did attend the identification process in Tuzla at the centre there. That's all I can say.

Q. Sir, I don't want to unnecessarily ask you to deal with difficult matters, so if I could ask you to simply say: When you saw some of the bodies exhumed from Glumina, were you able to positively identify some members of your family? Just yes or no would be sufficient.

A. Yes.

Q. And which members of your family?

A. I identified both my father and my three brothers. However, my father and one of my brothers, I found it very easy to identify because they were wearing -- they were in black plastic bags with zips on them, and those bodies were very well preserved. And it looked as if they had just been shot several months ago. Whereas, the other bodies were more difficult to identify. We had to identify them on the basis of the clothing they were wearing because all that remained were the bones. But as I know full well what my other two brothers were wearing on that particular day, I found them there. With the help of the commission, we were able to establish that those people, after the expert analyses were taken and the bone marrow extracted, they indeed certified that they were members of my family. And this is -- they are now in a civilised manner buried, which is a thing that I'm grateful for. And their graves exist, they've been marked, and you can read the names of the people who were ²¹⁴⁰⁵ buried there.

Q. Sir, when were you asked to go and make these identifications? Can you simply tell us the month and year.

A. That was -- I don't know the exact date, but it was in the month of October 1998. I think that's when it was.

Q. I'm going to ask you to look at a list of names of identified bodies from Glumina. I'm going to ask you: Do you recognise, without necessarily calling out the name, but do you recognise some of the people listed in that list of bodies?

JUDGE MAY: What's the number of this, please?

MR. GROOME: My apologies. 454, tab 4.

A. I apologise but could you just tell me what I'm to do with these lists. How am I to say that I recognise them?

Q. Do you -- is the name of your father and brothers on that list? Without telling us the number next to their name, just simply if you could tell us whether you saw their names on the list.

A. Here I have the name of my father, and here I have the name of my youngest brother.

Q. In addition to those two names, do you recognise other names of people who were present in Drinjaca, Dom Kulture, on the night you've described for the Chamber?

A. Yes. Here on this first list, under number 1.

Q. Sir, it's not necessary to go through and actually identify them.

A. I recognise many people here from my village, as well as from Drinjaca, Sopotnik, and Dzevanje. Those are the names of the villages. ²¹⁴⁰⁶ Because it all belongs to one municipality, all these places.

Q. Sir, my final question to you here today is: Could you, in a sentence or two, describe what permanent effects you have suffered as a result of what happened in Drinjaca on the night that you've described for us.

A. I have lasting effects in my right shoulder from the entrance/exit wound. I had bone fractures here. And from the wounding, I remain a permanent invalid. The doctors have done everything in their power for me to regain the normal movements of my arm, like the left one, but as the wound was a complicated one and the muscles had been severed, they would have to do implants, transplanting muscles from other parts of my body to this area here. After thinking long and hard about this, they decided to leave things as they were, so I'll have to live like this for the rest of my life.

As to the wound that passed through my left thigh -- hip, luckily the bullet did not fracture my bones, but I do feel pain when the weather changes. And if I were to sleep on that side, then I feel pain too. And of course, after the shooting, after I was shot, I had nightmares for many years afterwards and my body shook. I experienced great nervousness. So I decided to carry on and continue with my treatment. As for psychological treatment, I have improved a great deal in that respect and I am very grateful to the doctors for taking care of me. But unfortunately, my right hand will not be able to move around as it previously did. I cannot conduct any rotation with my arm, I can just move it up and down. So I have to use my left hand to eat with. It was ²¹⁴⁰⁷ difficult for me to get used to using my left hand more but I have succeeded, and I can still write with my right hand. But I'll never be able to perform the job I did beforehand.

I have to do some menial tasks today, which are very poorly paid. But the important thing, of course, is that I am alive and that my mother, who lost three of her sons and her husband, has me and can look at me alive in the state I'm in now and she's happy to see me alive and I'm happy to see my own family, my children, my mother, and my friends. So much from me. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: No further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Have we got an exhibit number for the statement, Rule 92 bis?

MR. GROOME: It was 455, I believe, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1455, I shall do my best not to ask you questions which might upset you in any way, in view of the fact that you have lost members of your family, but I would like us to clarify some points.

Let me ask a preliminary question: From all the descriptions you've given us in -- on different occasions, the statements you have made - I'm looking at your statements now - and I have also been listening to what you said during this short examination-in-chief, is it clear that there was no JNA unit which participated in all those events, nor was in ²¹⁴⁰⁸ the area at all at the time? Is that right?

A. It was clear to us that a reserve unit of the Yugoslav People's Army was present there. And we know, Mr. Milosevic, that in the former Yugoslav People's Army the young men ranged from the ages of 19, 20, and so on, they were in the regular army. But -- so they were there between the ages of 20, and 30 was the highest age. So they wore uniforms that did not associate us with the Chetnik uniforms, but they wore uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think anything else is switched on for this interference to be caused.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The whole reserve complement of a local character throughout Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence, they all had the same uniforms, just like the JNA. There wasn't any difference. Isn't that right?

A. It is right that the reserve units of the JNA didn't have different uniforms; that is to say, their uniforms were no different than the regular JNA army, Mr. Milosevic, the reserve force from the regular Yugoslav army. So they had the same uniforms. I just regret that the Court has so little time for us to be more specific. But when I tell you that when the weapons were confiscated from the inhabitants of Drinjaca, Sopotnik, and the other place, there were people with the same uniforms with the Yugoslav flag placed on the tank.

Q. As for the disarmament process, disarming the people, I assume you will remember that the army had the task of disarming both sides, and especially to disarm the paramilitary formations. By confiscating the ²¹⁴⁰⁹ weapons was one operation, but I'm talking about the events you testified about. And as far as I was able to gather, from what you said here orally during your testimony and from what you wrote in your statement, all the people that you enumerate did not have any JNA insignia but various other insignia that could not have belonged to the JNA; isn't that right?

A. Sir, I said that the persons who were wearing uniforms, uniforms of the reservist formation of Yugoslavia, were there when the population was rallied up and when they stood guard over them in Drinjaca, in the cultural centre. It was only later that the paramilitaries turned up wearing different uniforms, the Chetnik uniforms and others, those who beat up the people and ultimately shot them.

Q. All right. So when you say, for example, referring to the six men who were -- the six men who beat up the people in the hall, and you say they had Skorpions, knives, et cetera, and that this commander of theirs had a beard, these were all things that you stated, are they not? You know that the JNA didn't allow anybody to wear beards and that the JNA members had to be well turned out and that the issued weapons did not include Skorpions in the JNA. What was used was exclusively domestically produced weapons by the Crnovo Zastavo or Red Star company. They were the manufacturers of the regular issued weapons. I assume you know that, in view of the fact that you did your regular military service.

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. I understand what you are saying. But you must understand me too. That particular unit of the reservists really did not -- of the JNA really didn't have beards and they didn't have Skorpions and they didn't have knives in their hands. They had weapons that were ²¹⁴¹⁰ manufactured in Yugoslavia and the uniforms you mentioned.

Q. All right. Now, to link all this up. What date are you referring to? Although, it says here. But what date, what period of time are you talking about?

A. I'm talking about the date which was the 30th of May, 1992. This event took place on the 30th of May.

Q. Do you know that already on the 30th of May the JNA had withdrawn from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina by that date? Do you know when the Army of the Republika Srpska was established and when those reservists that you talk about ceased to be a component part of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army, and when all these changes took place? Are you aware of that? Do you know about that?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I have not come here to speak about when the Serbian army within Bosnia-Herzegovina was established and when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm sure the competent authorities have all those facts and figures. They know about it better than me. But it was a coincidence that they withdrew on the 30th of May, that the JNA withdrew from the territory precisely on that date. It ceased to exist as of that date and then the Serbian army began to be formed, I assume. I know nothing about those dates. All I'm testifying about are things that I saw myself. What I'm not sure about and the things I don't know about, I don't want to talk about because I don't know about those other facts and dates.

Q. Yes, I fully respect that. But I just wanted us to clarify that it couldn't have been the JNA or any units of the regular army at all. ²¹⁴¹¹ And the fact that this went on in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a tragedy, of course, for all three ethnic groups, for all three nations. There's no challenging that.

A. Mr. Milosevic --

JUDGE MAY: You shouldn't have a general discussion of these matters. Now, what specific questions have you for the witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do have specific questions, Mr. May, with respect to the witness's testimony and statement.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 7, on page 2, you say that the first free elections took place in 1991, and that people did not trust each other because they feared that the national parties, who represented the interests of other ethnic groups, could win the elections and take power to the detriment, to the disadvantage of the other side. That's what you say in your statement, roughly, and that was the atmosphere that prevailed at the time in those parts. Isn't that right?

A. Mr. Milosevic, it is true that there was a technical problem that arose with respect to the date of the first re-elections to be held in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And later on I asked the Tribunal to change the date. It was in 1990, in fact. In my statement, this wasn't the essential point for me, whether they were held in 1990 or 1991, these elections. But it is true that they were in October in 1990, as far as I heard from people, and it is also true and correct that when the people went to vote in the free elections, the national parties were there in the elections. So there was a lack of trust. But this did not manifest itself as strongly ²¹⁴¹² until the referendum that took place in March 1992 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when the Bosniaks and the Croats went to the polls and voted to their century-old homeland, whereas the Serbs did not want to go to the polls. They told us, "You go and vote, but we're going to stay in Yugoslavia, because Yugoslavia is our country."

Q. Let's just make this clear, Mr. 1455: It wasn't my intention to see any differences in the times, whether you were talking about 1990 or 1991, the date. What I was interested in was an explanation of the atmosphere and mood that prevailed during the elections, independently of the fact of whether it was in 1990 or 1991. It was just this atmosphere of distrust on the part of the ethnic nationalist parties and the fear that if one national party were to win the elections, they would work to the disadvantage of the other ethnic group. Is that right?

A. Yes, it's true that people thought that way. But we learnt -- we knew very well who attacked whom later on and who it was that perpetrated the genocide, if we look at those ruling parties.

Q. Well, yes, who knows this and whether it is common knowledge, we'll discuss that in due course. But you say that you noticed that people who had been friends previously ceased to be friends any more. And you say that in paragraph 2, page 2, that they were singing nationalistic songs at wedding ceremonies that the other side found derogatory. And so I wanted to ask you -- insulting. I wanted to ask you some indirect questions. I'm not setting any traps for you. I just want to ask you quite simply what led up to all this -- or rather, I'm asking you this: Is it true that the leadership, led by Alija Izetbegovic, for instance, ²¹⁴¹³ quite clearly stated loud and clear what their ambitions were with respect to creating an Islamic state under the dominance of the Muslims? Did they state that publicly loud and clear? And anyway, if you remember, he publicly stated that he would sacrifice peace for a Muslim Bosnia. Do you remember that? Do you remember him saying that?

A. That question isn't really related to my testimony very much, but of course what I can say is this: We did not want a war, because we knew that if we were to start it, first of all, and we didn't have anything to start it with, then we knew we would be the first to be attacked. And what you say about Izetbegovic, remember what Karadzic said in Sarajevo, who said, "If war does come about, that is to say, if the Muslims and Croats decide for a sovereign Bosnia, then one of the ethnic groups would disappear, that is to say, the Muslims."

Q. Well, you'd have to ask him that, not me. But even that position was a position against war, an anti-war position. The Serbs were, of course, against a war.

But you said a moment ago that tensions had increased when the referendum was held and when the decision taken by the Muslims and Croats was to have an independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. You're a young man, but you certainly know full well that Bosnia and Herzegovina is composed of three nations; Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.

JUDGE MAY: This kind of general debate has nothing to do with the witness. We can hear all about it in due course, if it's relevant, but ²¹⁴¹⁴ concentrate on what the witness has come here to give evidence about, which is what happened, particularly in the cultural centre. You can ask him questions about that, rather than a general political debate.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I believe I am entitled to ask questions in connection with what --

JUDGE MAY: No. You can ask questions on his evidence or indeed what's in his statement. Now, have you any questions on those particular topics?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you heard the witness saying that tensions increased after the referendum, and that is what I'm asking him about.

JUDGE MAY: That was all to do with your suggestions and your questions.

Now, what -- if you've got a passage in his statement you want to ask him about, you can do so. But he gave no evidence here about those tensions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, a moment ago on his own, without me asking him anything, he said that relations soured, especially after the referendum. Please check the transcript. After the referendum at which the decision was taken for an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina.

JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're helped by this. Much time is wasted with every witness as to what happened, the referendum, and all the rest of it, these political matters. We've heard it all before. Now, you can ask this witness specific questions. Now, would you like to do so?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will ask him the questions that I ^{21415 BLANK PAGE 21416} feel I need to ask him. It is not up to me to assist you.

JUDGE MAY: No.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But rather, to convey the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If it doesn't assist us, then you're not going to be allowed to ask the questions, because they're not relevant. Now, let's get on with it, shall we?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you remember that this tension which was present throughout the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina culminated with the killing of a Serb, Nikola Gardovic, and the wounding of Milenko?

JUDGE MAY: We've been over all this. We've been over all this. This casting of blame is of no assistance at all. Now, he's dealing with very specific events; murder of a great number of people in that cultural centre. If you challenge that, you should do so, rather than this constant harking back to events much before.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1455 --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you are bringing witnesses here from another state to testify about very specific matters about which I certainly cannot know except from information collected by my associates. Therefore, it is quite inopportune for us to debate here whether a killing occurred or not. I am trying to clarify things, taking into consideration the witness's statement and his testimony here in court. ²¹⁴¹⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say on page 2, paragraph 9 of your statement that towards the end of 1991 Serbs started organising village guards in order to protect themselves from Muslims; isn't that right?

A. Mr. Milosevic, after the end of the war in Croatia, we held joint guard duty with the Serbs, together, with hunting weapons that we had on both sides. We held those guards to prevent infiltration by someone who might cause unrest. Amongst us, who had such good relations, they were exemplary and few like it in Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, when the question in connection with the referendum arose for the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbs simply said, "We can't go on like this any more. You will have to take your side and defend yourself and we will defend ourselves."

Q. Well, thank you very much for explaining that in that way, because this is what it says in this paragraph: "Towards the end of 1991 --" this is paragraph 2 on page 2 -- or rather, page 1, really, of your statement. So: "Towards the end of 1991, Serbs started organising village guards in order to protect themselves from Muslims." So my question is: So the Serbs were in danger, since they organised village guards to protect themselves from the Muslims.

A. Mr. Milosevic, that was their opinion, that they were protecting themselves from the Muslims, because there was no third nation there. Who would they defend themselves from, the Finns? They were afraid of us. But we gave them assurances that we could never hurt them, that there was no need for them to do that. ²¹⁴¹⁸

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the statement.

JUDGE KWON: Yes, I would like to witness to have his own statement.

JUDGE MAY: He can read the next sentence too. Wait a minute. Let him find it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which paragraph number is it?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is on page 2 of your statement. In the Serbian language, it is the second paragraph from the bottom.

JUDGE KWON: It's paragraph number 9, handwritten number.

JUDGE MAY: Now, Witness B-1455, do you see that sentence that you've been asked about?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I see that sentence. And I answered that question for him.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Would you just perhaps read out the next two sentences. Do you see those sentences: "We Muslims offered them to do the joint guards, but they refused. They said Muslims and Serbs do not have anything in common any more." Is that what you said?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that. And of course, when they decided to have independent guards, what else could we do but organise ourselves to protect our homes and our village using what we had legally, like hunting weapons. Some people managed to purchase some weapons on the black market, but they were very few, people who had a lot of money. One had to have 1.500 German marks for such a rifle. So it was normal for us to protect our homes and our village. ²¹⁴¹⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will continue right where, Mr. May, you stopped in quoting the sentence of this witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It continues to say: "Because we Muslims voted for a sovereign and independent Bosnia. The Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia." Now, tell me, please, was it normal for them to remain in Yugoslavia and do you consider them, too, being an equal nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, having the right to express their will as to staying in Yugoslavia or leaving it?

JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter what his views are about that. That's what he said happened. Whether it was right or wrong and what the rights and wrongs of it all were do not matter as far as this witness is concerned. He's just describing what happened in the village.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You then go on to say that, "You Muslims decided to arm yourselves, that the president of the Crisis Staff, Mehmed Hodzic, formed guards in the villages of Kostijerevo and Drinjaca." You say, "The plan was to protect our houses."

Now, tell me, who were you protecting your houses from when you said a moment ago that the Serbs were in danger?

A. I didn't say that the Serbs were in danger. They said, "Now, if you vote for an independent and sovereign Bosnia, we are going to remain in Yugoslavia. We have nothing in common with you. We will keep a guard ²¹⁴²⁰ duty round our houses and you do that over there, so we have nothing in common any more." And of course we had a man who represented our Crisis Staff to preserve the population, and what legal weapons we had the Serbs knew about it. They also had legal weapons. Because our area is a hunting area. So we guarded our houses separately. But there was no incident. Never was there any incident.

Q. You say that in mid-March 1992 the Serbs established their own police station and the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik. Both were based in Karakaj. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So they didn't hold Zvornik. If they had held Zvornik, they wouldn't have been based in Karakaj.

A. Mr. Milosevic, Zvornik was a town with a majority Muslim population. And Karakaj had a majority Serb population. It was an industrial zone, quite a large settlement with a majority Serb population.

Q. And they formed the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik in a Serbian settlement and not a Muslim one, and Zvornik had a majority Muslim population; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. It is true that that is how it was. But why, then, did they cross over into our territory, torch our houses, and kill our people?

Q. That is what we are talking about. Why did the Serbs organise themselves in Karakaj? You speak about that in paragraph 2, page 3. Was it because they were expelled from Zvornik?

In your statement you say that Muslims, because they were in the ²¹⁴²¹ majority, stayed in Zvornik. What happened to the Serbs?

A. The Serbs stayed in Zvornik too, just as did the Muslims in Karakaj. At the point in time when those municipalities were being formed, nobody had hurt anyone.

Q. Do you know that before there were any moves taken by the Serbs there was a mobilisation of Muslim forces and the formation of units in Zvornik? Is that right or not?

A. When the municipality was divided up and a little quantity -- a small quantity of weapons were distributed to both sides by the Ministry of the Interior, they were M-48 rifles, and when they had formed their own municipality and Ministry of the Interior in Karakaj, a unit was formed of Territorial Defence to protect their homes, villages, and the town, and it moved out to Kula Grad. I said that there was very heavy fighting over there.

Q. You say M-48 rifles. This is a simple non-automatic rifle. All the others are automatic or semi-automatic.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I saw three such rifles being issued to three men in our village, M-48 rifles.

Q. I'm just linking this to the part of your testimony when a Serb told you to go in front of him and started shooting at you and then you say he had to cock his rifle each time, and this saved you because it gave you a chance to escape. Is that right? So that Serb, who was leading you, also had this trophy rifle which was not part of the standard JNA weaponry; is that right?

A. Mr. Milosevic, it is true that he accompanied me holding an M-48 ²¹⁴²² rifle. However, when I was in Mjedovo Brdo - this is neighbouring village to mine - I found all the neighbours from my village there and most of them had automatic rifles, light machine-guns, semi-automatic rifles, and I saw him holding this particular rifle and he escorted me with that rifle. And that may have been lucky for me, because if he had had an automatic rifle, I may not have been here today.

Q. Yes, that's right. But I'm just saying that, using your own example, you showed that they were armed with the same trophy weapons that you say you had.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I just saw that rifle on him. As for all the other neighbours, they had automatic, semi-automatic rifles, and light machine-guns.

Q. Very well. In the first paragraph on page 3, you say, "Since the Muslims were in the majority, they stayed in Zvornik." Before that, you say that the Serbs had formed a municipality in Karakaj. "We the Muslims realised that we should prepare ourselves for war. People were worried. Some started packing their belongings and leaving their homes to go to Tuzla." That is what you say, that the majority population remained in Zvornik and realised that they should prepare for war. Isn't, then, what you stated here the reason for the tensions, including for the arming of the Serbs, that is, that the reason was that the preparation -- the preparations that you the Muslims, the majority population in Zvornik, started preparing for war?

A. Mr. Milosevic, if you have any signs of oncoming war, we had to use all available means should we be attacked. And there were indications ²¹⁴²³ to that effect and it was only normal for us to defend ourselves.

Q. As you say that there were indications that they would attack you, is it true and well-known that precisely in those days, that is, March and the beginning of April 1992, prior to the conflict in Zvornik, attacks had started on Serb villages in your area, precisely by Muslim extremists and paramilitary formations? Do you know that or not?

A. Mr. Milosevic, you must give me the names of those villages for me to perhaps be able to answer that question.

Q. Let me look for that, for those names. For instance, do you know that prior to the conflict in Zvornik, in the village of Sapna, an ambush was set for a column -- or rather, a vehicle of the reserve force of the JNA that was withdrawing and that warrant officer Mika Stanojovic [phoen] was killed on that occasion, as well as several other people being seriously wounded? Do you remember that incident when the people that you say were preparing to defend themselves had organised an ambush prior to any attacks and actually attack members of the reserve force killed this warrant officer and wounded several people? This was in Sapna on the 5th of April, 1992. Is that right or not, Mr. 1455?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I hear this for the first time from you, and I really don't remember any of it. This is something that I learn of for the first time from you.

Q. So you never heard about it?

A. Believe me, I never of it.

Q. I do believe you. And do you remember that as early as mid-March 1992 there were arrests of a group of Serb youths in Carmani in Donji ²¹⁴²⁴ Kamenica who were mistreated by Avdija Omerovic -- he organised it and he works in the police. This is an incident that seriously increased tensions in the Zvornik area. Do you remember that?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I hear that for the first time too, and I am unable to comment on it because I don't know anything about it.

Q. I fully appreciate that. Just say you don't know, and we can move on.

Is it true that in that area, just around that time, a paramilitary formation was organised known as the Patriotic League of Nations, as it called itself? Actually, it was a paramilitary formation of Muslim extremists, the Patriotic League of Nations.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I do know that the first unit that I know was at Kula Grad near Zvornik consisted of a certain number of men who had left the town and who were defending themselves at Kula Grad. But I know -- don't know of that name. I have heard of the Patriotic League, but that it was there -- such a unit was there and that's what it was called, I don't know.

Q. Have you heard of the code name of this man, Captain Almir? In fact, Samir Misovic, who organised the Patriotic League in that area?

A. Yes, I heard of a man by that name called Almir, but I never knew his real first and last name. And that he organised the defence of Zvornik and Kula Grad from attacks by the JNA and Serbian paramilitary units who, 20 days later, took control of Kula Grad.

Q. So I assume that those formations of Muslim forces had held Zvornik, if the Serbs took over control later on. How can they take it ²¹⁴²⁵ over if they hadn't held it before that?

A. Mr. Milosevic, there was no resistance in the town of Zvornik because there were both Serbs and Muslims living there, and those people, even if they did organise defence of the town, as they did, they were located at Kula Grad. And as far as I know, the battles -- all the battles were waged there, though I was never there.

Q. Are you aware of the fact that on the day that the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised, on the 6th of April, that in Sarajevo and in other locations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were armed conflicts involving the death of 14 people and the injury of more than 100, before the conflicts in Zvornik?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I saw on television that there were some incidents in Sarajevo. But could you tell me what happened on the 4th of April, before the attack on Zvornik, what had happened in Bijeljina.

Q. I could answer that question for you, but I assume they wouldn't let me do it. But I'll tell you. When the Green Berets captured Bijeljina and blocked with roadblocks the centre of Bijeljina and when a witness, Alija Gusalic, who even witnessed here, went to throw a hand grenade --

JUDGE MAY: The accused is going to rehearse some of the evidence. We're going to adjourn now. There's a matter which the Prosecution want to raise, so we won't adjourn precisely -- May we take it that this witness will be back on Monday morning?

MR. GROOME: I believe that is not a difficulty for the witness. I haven't personally checked. Perhaps ... ²¹⁴²⁶

JUDGE MAY: B-1455, can you be back, please, on Monday morning to conclude your evidence?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you wouldn't mind waiting now. We're just going to deal with one or two administrative matters, nothing to do with your evidence.

Except for this: We will then conclude this witness's evidence before we do anything else.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[The witness stands down]

MR. NICE: A very short matter I want to raise: The Chamber knows that we've been providing to the Chamber and to the accused and the amici documents from time to time. One is called a fullbox document and one, I think, called a chronology. They have been prepared on a particular computer system. There is a possibility of our converting those documents to a new or different computer system that offers considerable advantages for those conducting trials. And this is -- I'm saying this in court so that the accused can listen, because I think it's really with him in mind that I'm saying it. The new system offers particular advantages to those preparing and handling complex trials of this nature. The new system is one with which I know that your legal officers are, to a degree, or have to a degree become acquainted. It seemed to me sensible that before we make the decision, if we do, to convert what is a very usable tool already, to a tool that will come in a different format, ^{21427 BLANK PAGE 21428} we should discuss that with the interested parties, including the amici, the accused's associates, if they are prepared to be involved, and your legal officers.

So I'm attempting to fix a meeting, probably on Monday, because we want to move reasonably swiftly with this if we are going to change the format in which we present documents to you -- attempt to arrange a meeting where all the parties will be invited to attend. If the accused feels he cannot send his associates, then we will, I hope, have the meeting without a representation by his associates, although that would be unfortunate. What I will then do is have a minute prepared of the meeting and I will provide them with that minute in due course. The preferred course would, of course, be for his associates to attend, because the reality is that the resolution of this case will be assisted by the best - and this may well be the most modern - systems for handling the material that's being produced.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: This isn't a system which was -- there was some talk of introducing a system sometime ago. I can't remember what it was -- which didn't find favour. This is a new system altogether; is that right?

MR. NICE: I don't know the system of which Your Honour is referring. I do know that the system to which I'm referring is one that your officers Ms. Featherstone and Mr. Boas have been introduced, and my understanding is that they viewed it favourably. Whether they did that on their own account or on Your Honours' accounts, I'm not sure, but it's something we would like to discuss with them. ²¹⁴²⁹

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I guess we'll have to see how the system that you have in mind works. And in particular, of course, it must not be a system that adds to the -- to the -- to what is already a very difficult trial to manage.

MR. NICE: I have that very much in mind. I also have in mind that the present documentation, which is particularly suitable for those who prefer not to use computers, is a very usable series of tools. I'm concerned, amongst other things, that any new system would enable us to replicate or continue providing documentation in that form so that it would serve both those who prefer not to use computers or who don't have access to them at the particular time and those who find computer systems more useful. But it's because of the different audiences to which these documents are going - by which I mean Your Honours, the accused, his associates, and the amici - that I'm anxious that we not take a step that would be substantial in resource implications for us unless we can be sure that it's going to be a sensible step to take for all audiences concerned.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the point must be that the Trial Chamber retains the right to pass on the usability of any system that is going to affect the rights of the parties.

MR. NICE: Of course.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. If we've finished that topic, if Mr. Groome would help us about Monday, and also the accused, so he can know who we're going to hear from next.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, after this witness is B-1098, a witness ²¹⁴³⁰ that I don't expect -- I expect will take us to the end of Monday, but we may finish him even before the end of Monday. The witness after him is C-047.

JUDGE MAY: Well, can you provide an updated list today, if possible.

MR. GROOME: I'm informed that that's already been provided, Your Honour, and I assume it will be distributed shortly.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We're working out, Mr. Milosevic, how long you've got. You've got about 50 minutes on Monday morning, which will give you an hour and a half with this witness. And you should be getting a list of the other witnesses. We'll make sure that that happens, so you know what to prepare for next week.

We'll adjourn now until Monday morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

the 2nd day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.