> ²¹⁸¹⁴

Thursday, 5 June 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I'll continue the examination of B-024?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. According to my calculation, you've had about two hours so far, a bit less. So if you could be as expeditious as possible so that we can make sure that we get the cross-examination in and, if possible, deal with the other witness today. We will sit a bit later, but not beyond 2.00.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-024, as you're called here, you are, of course, under a declaration, the same declaration that you gave before. Yes.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

Q. Sir, we interrupted your testimony the week before last. You were describing your relation between the Serb MUP and the RS MUP. Is there anything we neglected or anything that you wish to add to that relationship that we did not get to before we interrupted your testimony?

A. Well, as I said, I did work until the 20th of April, 1992 in MUP, and I know that up until then relationships were quite correct and proper. ²¹⁸¹⁵ After that, I didn't work in the Ministry of the Interior any more, so I really can't talk about the specifics of the relationships that prevailed.

Q. Now, sir, during the course of this trial, a video was played. It was Prosecution Exhibit 390, tab 18. It was a videotape of a Red Berets celebration at Kula camp. Did you have an opportunity or by chance see that video as it was broadcast in the proceedings of the Tribunal?

A. Yes. It was played on all sorts of television networks very frequently.

Q. Did you recognise somebody in that video as somebody who was present in Zvornik during the course of the takeover?

A. Well, of the well-known people from the footage, there was only Lukovic, Legija. And as far as I know, he was captured before the Serb forces took Zvornik. He was captured by the Territorial Defence, that is to say, the Muslim forces.

Q. Aside from him and the obviously well-known people, was there another person who you recognised as being present in -- that you recognised from that video?

A. Of those present, there was just this other man, the one that gave his name to the centre, and that is Radislav Kostic. And the centre is named after him. As to the rest, during the takeover of Zvornik, I don't remember that anybody else was there of those people.

MR. GROOME: If I might just correct for the record. It was tab 1 of Prosecution Exhibit 390.

Q. Now, I'd just ask you to briefly comment. Are you aware of a ²¹⁸¹⁶ person by the name of Captain Dragan, and what, if any, involvement did he have in the events that took place in Zvornik?

A. I apologise. I've forgot. Yes, of course, I do know Captain Dragan, and I do know that one of his units was in Zvornik with him and he was there for about 30 days. They were put up at the hotel called Vidikovac near Zvornik in a place called Divic.

Q. And can you approximate for us the period of time that Captain Dragan was in Zvornik?

A. Well, as I remember, it may have been May or June 1992.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Grujic regarding Captain Dragan's presence in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I did have a conversation with him. And Captain Dragan had some programmes broadcast over the local radio station. This was common knowledge. Everybody knew that he was there in Zvornik with part of his unit.

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to Kulagrad. Can you describe what, if any, involvement or what, if any, Serb forces were involved in the fighting at Kulagrad towards the middle of April of 1992.

A. Yes, I do know that. And it was common knowledge. I think the unit was the 72nd Parachute Unit under the command of the then-Lieutenant Colonel Mr. Stupar, which took part in taking control of Kulagrad sometime towards the end of April 1992.

Q. Were there any other units involved besides that particular one?

A. As far as I know, all the rest were volunteer units and Territorial Defence of Zvornik. I don't know that there were any other ²¹⁸¹⁷ units present.

Q. Are you aware of any of the events that took place in Celopek around this period of time?

A. I don't know what events you're referring to.

Q. Events in the -- the cultural centre at Celopek.

A. Well, like most of the inhabitants of Zvornik, I too heard about what was going on in Celopek through the stories told around town and the information media started writing about this abroad too.

Q. A witness has mentioned in detail about what happened in Celopek. Can I just ask you to summarise the types or kinds of crimes or events you heard were occurring in Celopek. Just perhaps list them.

A. It was generally known that a group of men from Divic were being incarcerated in Celopek. And according to the stories that went round town and later on published in the information media, and there was also court proceedings in Yugoslavia against the perpetrators, that these people were subjected to terrible torture, killings, and so on.

Q. The media accounts, were they contemporaneous -- did they appear in the summer of 1992 or did they appear sometime later?

A. They appeared later, several months later, and they appeared abroad. News of that appeared abroad. And then it was the Yugoslav papers such as Vreme that started writing about it too.

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to the fighting around the area of Divic. What, if any, JNA participation are you aware of in the fighting around Divic?

A. As far as I know, I don't know that the JNA took part in the ²¹⁸¹⁸ attack on Divic. What I do know is that same team which took control of Kulagrad, on that same day crossed over and attacked Divic as an inhabited, built-up area.

Q. During the attack on Divic, was there any artillery fire from Serbia?

A. During the attack on Divic, I heard some shooting from all sides. And as far as I know, I don't know if it was artillery fire but there was shooting from the hydroelectric powerplant in Mali Zvornik, and that's in Serbia. Because, in fact, it's a settlement which is several hundred metres away from the hydroelectric powerplant, about 100 metres away, in fact. And this as a strategic target was an interesting one, I assume.

Q. Do you know who was responsible for the fire coming from Mali Zvornik, the Serbian side of the border?

A. No, I don't know that. But unequivocally the fire was opened from the Serbia side. But I wasn't there, so I don't know who opened fire first, actually.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to events at the Karakaj Technical School. Are you aware of the events leading up to and the events which occurred at the Karakaj Technical School?

A. What I know is this, that several villages which were loyal to the Serbian authorities surrendered to those authorities and that their transport was organised from a place called Bijeli Potok. But before that, the men were separated from the women and children, and the women and children were taken off in the direction of Kalesija, up until a place called Memelic [phoen], and the men were incarcerated in the technical ²¹⁸¹⁹ school in Karakaj. And very soon after that, rumours began to go round Zvornik that they were actually killed.

Q. Now, I want to ask you to describe in a little greater detail, when you said villages loyal to Serb authorities. What was the ethnic make-up of these villages that you're saying were loyal to Serb authorities?

A. Those villages were ethnically pure and inhabited by Muslims.

Q. Now, when you say "loyal to Serb authorities," is that to say that they observed or subjected themselves to the new temporary government, Serb government, that you described earlier in your testimony?

A. Yes. As far as I know, there were no military events in those villages from the time that Serb -- the Serbs took control of Zvornik until they left.

Q. Now, the fact that there were no military events in these villages, was that something only you and a few people knew or was that something widely known by the people present in Zvornik?

A. It was common knowledge in Zvornik.

Q. Returning to Karakaj Technical School, and putting rumour aside, did you yourself ever go to the area or to the school itself during the time that these men were held at that school?

A. The first day the people were brought there, I did go over there to take two men there which had been appointed by the headquarters, that is to say, the headquarters had sent them up for an exchange, a so-called exchange. I was taking them there.

Q. Were you able to secure the release of a former colleague of yours ²¹⁸²⁰ who had been detained at the Karakaj school?

A. I had a written order from the TO commander. I didn't actually enter the school building, but I handed this over to the people that stood guard in front of the school, and they took out my former colleague, along with another man who was the president of the SDA in Djulici.

Q. Can you tell the Chamber what it was or what your observations were about the conditions at the school at the time that you were there.

A. Well, I conveyed that to the TO commander. The conditions were catastrophic. It was June. It was extremely hot. And you could see the humidity coming out of the room as they opened the door to let the people out. You could see that it was stifling inside and that it was all steamed up.

Q. Aside from that particular occasion, did you ever return to the school while men were being detained there?

A. No.

Q. Do you know a person by the name of General Subotic?

A. Yes.

Q. Drawing your attention to 1995, did you have a conversation with General Subotic that related to the events or the people that had been detained in Karakaj Technical School?

A. No, I never had a conversation with General Subotic about that subject. I received information from a colleague, however, who was in the Crisis Staff, that he had discussed those events with him.

Q. And what did your colleague describe to you as the conversation he had with General Subotic? ²¹⁸²¹

A. Well, I came to see him privately, to have a cup of coffee with him, and I just happened to come upon General Subotic there. We didn't discuss any vital subjects. It was just a normal chitchat, private chitchat. And when he left, the man told me that General Subotic had the assignment given to him by the government at Pale to do everything in his power to see that the mass graves around the municipality and Republika Srpska be removed.

Q. And did you learn the location to where the mass graves were to be moved to?

A. I didn't learn of the location, but later on talking to a policeman -- as I say, later on he explained to me that they provided security for very strange transport and that during the night a road was shut off to traffic from Zvornik towards Crni Vrh.

Q. And can you describe for the Chamber's benefit where Crni Vrh is in comparison to the centre of Zvornik.

A. Yes. Crni Vrh is approximately 15 to 20 kilometres -- 15 kilometres on the road to Tuzla.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the issue of pensions. And my question to you is: Can you describe what you know about whether pensions were paid to non-Serbs after the takeover of Zvornik?

A. What I know is that pensions were not paid to the non-Serb inhabitants after the 9th of April, 1992.

Q. And how do you know that?

A. Well, all the lists of salaries and pensions had to go to the provisional -- the temporary government to be authorised and certified. ²¹⁸²² And I know that the Muslims on those lists did not get the go-ahead.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 451, tab 1.

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at this exhibit. It's a multi-page exhibit. But if I could draw your attention to the -- the piece of -- the document with "InvestBanka" on the top right-hand corner. I believe it's the exhibit you're looking at now. And if I could ask you to read the first full paragraph of that document.

A. Yes. What it says here: "We ask you to, for the purpose of payments for April to the pensioners of Serb ethnicity who received their pensions though InvestBank in Zvornik, allocate the amount of," and then there's a large amount. It stresses here that the pensioners were of Serb ethnicity.

Q. During your contacts with the Crisis Staff, did you ever see a similar document authorising the payment of pensions to people of non-Serb ethnicity?

A. Yes.

Q. So you did see similar documents authorising the payment of pensions to people of ethnicity other than Serb?

A. No. I saw there was a misunderstanding. I saw documents in which the government, the provisional government, prohibited the payment to workers, payment of sums of money to workers who were non-Serbs.

MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you to the usher.

Q. Can I now draw your attention to Kozluk. Are you aware of ²¹⁸²³ the -- an occasion in which nearly the entire population of that village left Kozluk?

A. Well, yes. That was at the beginning of the war, and I was still the commander, the chief of the station. And we did visit Kozluk, which was preparing for people to leave it. Everybody was on tractors and trucks and the Gornji Sepak village, the Muslim village, joined in. I would say there were roughly six or seven thousand people there, and I was a member of the delegation, where the Muftija and Orthodox church leader was there and we tried to convince those people not to leave Kozluk. And at that time we succeeded and they did return to their homes. We made lists of their requirements and assisted them as far as we were able to at that particular point in time. And they did stay on living in Kozluk for several months after that, in fact.

Q. Can I ask you to describe what events transpired between this event you're talking about and the period of time or the day when they eventually did leave en masse.

A. Well, what I know is this: I had telephone conversations with some members from Kozluk, although I wasn't in the Crisis Staff or the police any more. And they shade they had been ordered sometime at the beginning of July 1992, I think it was, and that they had been pulled out of Kozluk. They were simply told that that was the decision that had been reached.

Q. What, if any, involvement did a person by the name of Peja have in this event?

A. Well, I know that Peja was Arkan's deputy throughout Arkan's ²¹⁸²⁴ operation -- the operations of Arkan's unit in Zvornik. Now, if you are referring to Peja's part in pulling people out of Kozluk, I don't think he was in Kozluk at that time because they left Zvornik between the 15th and 20th of April and the unit was no longer in Zvornik and the surrounding territory.

Q. I want to now ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 451, tab 14. It is a receipt. I'm going to ask you: Do you recognise what's described in this receipt?

A. Yes. This is a receipt for the provisional government of the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik for services of transport. And then it gives the locations, Zvornik-Kozluk-Gornji Sepak, Petkovci-Kiseljak, Zvornik-Bijeljina-Batkovic, Zvornik-Kozluk, Orahovac, Karakaj, et cetera. And then the invoices, which were paid by the municipality to the transport company, Drinatrans - that was its name - from Zvornik.

Q. Can I draw your attention to an entry of the 15th of July, 1992. And the route that is described as Zvornik-Bijeljina-Batkovic. And it says, "Four vehicles were used to transport 600 prisoners." Can you see that entry?

A. Yes, I can. That was on the 15th of July, 1992. Zvornik-Bijeljina-Batkovic was the route, four buses, 600 it says here, transport for detainees.

Q. And do you know where those detainees specifically were transported to?

A. I don't. All I can say is to comment on the basis of this document. ²¹⁸²⁵

Q. Now, I want to now draw your attention to what, if any, damage was done to the mosques in the municipality of Zvornik. And my first question to you is: During the actual takeover of Zvornik, were any of the mosques destroyed?

A. As far as I know, up until the 20th of April I was there, not a single mosque in the Zvornik municipality had been destroyed. But as a citizen of Zvornik who worked there and resided there throughout, I do know that all the mosques in Zvornik and the surrounding parts under the control of the authorities, controlled by the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik, in some time -- at some time in 1992 were for the most part either destroyed or damaged.

Q. And can you describe what you know about the circumstances surrounding the destruction of these mosques.

A. Well, as a citizen myself, all I could notice was that I went by several days later and saw that a mine -- a mosque in Zvornik had been mined, blown up, and that the glass windowpanes had been shattered on some of the surrounding buildings. That's all I can tell you about that.

Q. And was the destruction of the mosque, was it some -- was it due to spontaneous retaliation by citizens or was it organised by the authorities in Zvornik?

A. I don't have any evidence of it being organised, but the only thing I can say as an individual, as my opinion, it was in reaction to the war and the events that were going on in Zvornik and throughout Bosnia.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could go into closed session just for my second-to-last question to the witness. ²¹⁸²⁶

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Okay. We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. And sir, my final question to you is: Have any promises been made to you in exchange for your testimony before this Tribunal?

A. No.

MR. GROOME: Nothing further.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: ^{21827 BLANK PAGE 21828}

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. B-024, you said that the attack on Zvornik took place on the 8th of April, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, with precision, as somehow I was not quite able to follow, which units took part in that attack?

A. They were units of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik, assisted by volunteers from various parts. I don't really know who they were. They were coming from all over. And about 20 to 30 members of Arkan's unit, under the command of his deputy at the time, Pejic.

Q. So no JNA units took part in that.

A. That is what I said at the beginning, that I was not aware of any JNA units taking part in the attack on Zvornik on the 8th of April.

Q. So you're not aware of the presence of any police unit, for instance, from Serbia?

A. No. There was no presence of the police from Serbia.

Q. So in those conflicts, there were units of the Zvornik Territorial Defence participating and volunteers; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this unit of Arkan's, the Serbian Volunteer Guard; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the Muslim forces put up any resistance and what kind? What did that conflict look like?

A. I personally was not involved at the front line because I was injured. I was at headquarters. But I do know that the first conflict in ²¹⁸²⁹ Zvornik resulted in the withdrawal of Serbs from Zvornik a month prior to the outbreak of the conflict because of the tension, so there were very few Serbs sleeping in Zvornik, so that Zvornik was more or less ethnically pure that is, there were only Muslims there. And then they distributed what weapons were left in the SUP for the reserve force and they had their own Territorial Defence. The conflict didn't last long. One could hear the shooting in the morning.

Q. Before you tell me how long the conflict lasted, but on the basis of your own knowledge - you were in Zvornik at the time - the Muslim forces, that is, the Territorial Defence, and the police, the Muslim part of the Zvornik SUP held the whole of Zvornik under control, whereas the Serbs had fled Zvornik in the meantime.

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. And do you have any idea as to where the most significant points were at which Muslim forces were concentrated prior to the outbreak of the conflict in Zvornik?

A. Yes, I do have an idea, in view of the job I did. They were at Kulagrad, on the surrounding hills around Zvornik, and at the very entrance to Zvornik at Vidakova Njiva.

Q. So would it be right to say that apart from the Serbian part, that is, where the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik had been formed in a Serbian settlement, the whole of Zvornik had been captured by Muslim forces and under their control?

A. Yes, prior to the outbreak of the conflict. That is true. The whole of the town of Zvornik was held by Muslim forces for several days. ²¹⁸³⁰

Q. And do you have any idea of the strength of those Muslim forces that held Zvornik at the time?

A. I don't know how to put it, but our estimate was that the forces were significant. They were considerable. Because we had some information as to the arming of the opposing side.

Q. Could you be more precise about that? How big?

A. All I know is that from the Zvornik SUP, about 500 pieces of weapons had been distributed.

Q. When Serbs took Karakaj and left Zvornik, they distributed about 500 long barrels to the reserve force of their police, didn't they?

A. To the reserve force. And what makes it worse is to the criminals that they rounded up in the street and distributed weapons to them, and that is what frightened the Serbs and prompted them to leave Zvornik.

Q. And those criminals, when they were armed in Zvornik, what were they doing in Zvornik to frighten the Serbs and prompt them to leave?

A. Well, this was about two or three days prior to the conflict. They put on uniforms, and they were admitted overnight to the reserve police force.

Q. Yes. But what were they doing in the streets?

A. They started checking entry and exit into and from Zvornik and checking and questioning citizens.

Q. What do you mean "questioning citizens and controlling them"? Did they arrest people?

A. I'm not aware that there were any arrests, but they simply took over the job that was done by the regular police force. ²¹⁸³¹

Q. Apart from those 500 reserve members of the police, how many members of the Territorial Defence did they have organised in Zvornik or the units known as the Green Berets and the Patriotic League? I assume you're aware of those units.

A. Yes, I knew and all of us in the staff knew that already in October 1991, in the village of Godus, the Patriotic League had been formed and they had certain quantities of weapons. We also knew that at Kula a unit of theirs was stationed and somebody called Captain Hajro was with them, who had deserted the Yugoslav People's Army. But I don't know of how strong they were. And as we were in the minority in Zvornik, I assume they were quite numerous, because according to the 1991 census 70 per cent of the population of Zvornik were Muslim.

Q. So you don't have an idea of the strength of the -- their Territorial Defence that held Zvornik.

A. If you ask me to give you a number, I can't give you a number, but it was significant and it could be measured in several thousand.

Q. Thank you. I think your explanation is quite sufficient. Could you tell me, please, how long that battle for Zvornik lasted.

A. The actual attack on Zvornik lasted from about 4.00 a.m. until 8.00 a.m., so about four hours.

Q. Since all of you knew about these things, because you said several times during your testimony Zvornik is a small town, everyone knows everyone else and everyone knows what's going on, tell me, how many Serb fighters were killed in the battle for Zvornik? ²¹⁸³²

A. You mean throughout the war or during that first day?

Q. During the fighting, the battle, how many Serb fighters were killed?

A. During the war from 1992 to 1995, about 1.000 Serb combatants were killed in Zvornik in all.

Q. Tell me, that day when the conflict broke out, the battle for Zvornik, that was held by Muslim forces as you described, how many Serb fighters were killed on that day?

A. I do not have precise records, but I think the Serbs had three or four dead.

Q. And how many Muslim combatants were killed, members of their armed forces?

A. According to what the civil defence said later on, I think about 20 persons were buried, whose bodies were found there after the battle.

Q. So we are talking about the 8th of April, aren't we?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, please: Immediately after the expulsion of the Muslim forces from Zvornik, they blocked Zvornik, the Serb forces captured Zvornik, these others withdrew. Then the municipal leadership, did it take steps to prevent looting, rioting, and to restore the situation to normal in town, to resume production, and generally to normalise life?

A. There were attempts by the Crisis Staff at the time. They did everything they could to bring life back to normal. However, as the war operations continued and there were more and more dead, it was more and more difficult to keep things under control. ²¹⁸³³

Q. Tell me, were measures taken to prevent looting, violence, and other illegal acts, and did the municipal authorities take care of these things or not?

A. As I was saying, there were attempts to do something as far as that was possible; however, shortly forces organised themselves that were stronger than the local police and the local TO, so that as far as I know it was not possible to keep things really properly under control.

Q. So the events that you spoke about a moment ago, saying that things got out of hand and there were various groups and later on you speak of the destruction of mosques and so on, so this was something that wasn't planned or organised but simply the consequence of the general chaos that set in?

A. I saw that things were not developing in the direction that I thought the struggle of the Serb people would take for equality, that the things were getting out of control. I abandoned the staff and the police, but I do know that the president of the Crisis Staff was slapped around several times by various paramilitaries, that he was several times taken to be executed, and that it is really hard to establish who had control in Zvornik in the months of May, June, and July until that well-known operation of arrest of paramilitaries.

Q. Very well. So what you just said a moment ago, towards the end of your examination-in-chief, this was not an organised destruction of mosques but a reaction to wartime events by various groups that were present there at the time, armed citizens and so on.

A. I can say that as an individual, I did not attend any meeting at ²¹⁸³⁴ which there was discussion of any plans or agreements to destroy any places of worship. But also as a human being, I must say that all the Muslim religious buildings were destroyed in 1992 when the town was under Serb control.

Q. And across the way in Mali Zvornik, in which as you also know there were some Muslims living?

A. Yes. I do know that in Zvornik municipality there is an ethnic group of Muslims accounting for, I think, about 20 per cent of the population of the municipality.

Q. So in the territory of Serbia, in Mali Zvornik municipality, across the Drina, there is a mosque too. Yes, there is a mosque there, which was never damaged.

A. Yes, I know that it was never damaged. I know that the police guarded it at the beginning of the conflict, when the situation was most critical.

Q. At the beginning of the conflict it was so, but also later on no one touched the mosque, did they?

A. No, they didn't. That is true.

Q. Tell me, after Zvornik was captured, as we described a moment ago, were there arrests of individual members of these Muslim paramilitary formations, their taking into custody and so on?

A. As far as I know as a citizen, I think not. Most of their military formations withdrew after the Serbs entered Zvornik. For a time, they were at Kula. And after Kula was captured, some went towards Tuzla and others towards Srebrenica. ²¹⁸³⁵

Q. Very well. When the Crisis Staff was formed, I gathered from what you were saying that the Crisis Staff was formed, your Crisis Staff in Zvornik - I'm talking about that one - for -- in order to protect the Serb people from possible attacks by Muslim forces; is that right?

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. And was there ever any discussion within that Crisis Staff that Muslim villages needed to be attacked?

A. I said that in my testimony, that I was never present at any meeting of the Crisis Staff at which it was said that a single Muslim should be killed or a Muslim village attacked or cleansed. All we spoke about was about the protection of the Serbs in those areas.

Q. Can we infer from that that, for instance, the attack on the village known as Kulagrad was carried out exclusively because it was a stronghold of Muslim forces in the immediate vicinity of Zvornik?

A. Is that right?

A. Those who are in Zvornik and who are familiar with the geography of Zvornik, Kulagrad is actually a component part of Zvornik, it is a height close to Zvornik which dominates over Zvornik. And it is not possible to organise life normally in Zvornik under wartime conditions if one doesn't have control of Kulagrad as well.

Q. Tell me, Dr. Muhamed Jelkic, who is a Muslim, was he a member of some particular body in Zvornik? You mention him on page 9 of this tape 6 to 9 in your statement, in what I got as your transcript.

A. Yes, Muhamed Jelkic was a member of the Crisis Staff and a member of the provisional government in the Municipality of Zvornik for a while ²¹⁸³⁶ at the beginning of the war.

Q. Did he try and the very fact that he was a member of the Crisis Staff and this provisional government, was that an expression of the efforts made to normalise inter-ethnic relations and for the situation to calm down, to make it possible for those who had fled town, civilians, to come back, things like that?

A. That is precisely what the original idea was, and Muhamed Jelkic had very good intentions and was very honest. But now that I've mentioned the man here, I have to say that I did talk to him and he told me rather soon that all of this was assuming different proportions and that he felt as if he were a detainee, being a member of the Crisis Staff.

Q. Tell me, how many Muslims stayed in Zvornik?

A. Those who happened to be there. I mean, those who had not fled, simply were in Zvornik. And I know that over the local radio calls were issued to the population to the return to their workplaces and also to protect their property. And I think that in the beginning of May in Zvornik there were quite a few Muslims who had returned.

Q. Did anybody mistreat them there?

A. At that time, I had no such information. But later on, when I talked to these people, I realised that there were such cases as well. But that is what I learned subsequently.

Q. All right. But when one bears in mind the fact that the Muslim population was called upon over the radio to return, to continue working, et cetera, all of that was within the efforts to normalise the situation in Zvornik; isn't that right? ²¹⁸³⁷

A. Yes.

Q. Can one say, then, at all that somebody was carrying out some kind of ethnic cleansing there if at the same time everybody is being called upon to return and to have the situation normalised?

A. I've already said that this cannot be explained in one sentence only. The original idea was -- the original idea that we believed in was that people should come back and the situation should go back to normal. However, as the war progressed, more and more people were losing their lives and paramilitary formations were getting stronger and stronger. Quite simply there was no control any longer and it wasn't safe for these people to stay in Zvornik after their return.

Q. Please explain this to me, because I really am not aware of the situation in Zvornik itself. All these formations, didn't they -- I mean, weren't they rather quickly put under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska somehow, or were there formations that were formations of the Army of Republika Srpska but that did not accept the command of the Army of Republika Srpska? What was the situation?

A. I think this is the key question. Formally, perhaps, but if you look at the substance -- I mean, my own assessment is and most people from Zvornik will tell you that from the beginning of May until July practically there was no government and authority there. It is practically the paramilitaries that ruled.

Q. Can I just ask you to speak up a little bit, please, when you answer your questions, because I find it difficult to understand what you're saying, but I have understood what you've said so far. ²¹⁸³⁸ Tell me, since you mentioned this meeting between Stevo Radic - this is on page 13, tape 6 to 9 - you mention the meeting between Stevo Radic and Zuca in the house of Dr. Vidovic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you present at that meeting?

A. No.

Q. Tell me, please: I didn't find this clear, and it was my understanding that you were not present.

A. I wasn't.

Q. How do you know that at this meeting they discussed the takeover of power in Zvornik?

A. The paramilitaries had the objective of taking over power in Zvornik. And I think that they had already made all the necessary assignments, who should take which particular office. They invited Radic to this meeting too.

Q. Who was Radic, please?

A. Radic was a member of the Crisis Staff, and he was in charge of the economy in the Crisis Staff.

Q. And the man you refer to as Zuca, he's the one who was later arrested and tried?

A. Yes, he was arrested and tried before a court of law in Sabac.

Q. Sabac is in Serbia; right?

A. Yes.

Q. That's the man who was killing people at that cultural centre in Celopek; is that right? ²¹⁸³⁹

A. I was never present there. I just heard the testimony of witnesses. But I never was there.

Q. All right. On page 1, tape 7 to 9 --

A. May I -- Your Honour, may I just finish this?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please go ahead.

A. Yes. In relation to Celopek, they called Radic and they suggested this to him, but he did not accept this. And he was beaten up by them there, Radic was. And then something strange happened. Dr. Vidovic was killed in his apartment in Mali Zvornik.

Q. Tell me, since you referred to the killings of some persons in Djulici; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Who committed these killings?

A. I know that people were transported to the technical school centre in Karakaj and that they were separated from the women and children, but I personally do not know who ordered these killings and who actually committed them.

Q. What about this technical school in Karakaj?

A. I said that I was there in front, the first day when they were brought there, and it was the police and the TO of the municipality of Zvornik.

Q. Together, the TO and the police of Zvornik held Karakaj together?

A. Yes, this school. ²¹⁸⁴⁰

Q. The school where the people were detained?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please: How did Brano Grujic react? You mention him as president of the municipality at the time. Was he at that time president of the municipality?

A. Yes, Grujic was president of the municipality at the time. Afterwards, when it became clear that these people were missing, in a private conversation a year or two ago I asked him about that particular case and he swore to me that he knew nothing about this and that this was done without his knowledge and that he had no information about this and he did not take part in any of this, neither the ordering of the killing or the killing itself.

Q. All right. But on the basis of the knowledge you had then, not only on the basis of this conversation you had two or three years ago, the one that you referred to just now, what happened obviously did not happen under the control of the president of the municipality of Zvornik and your Crisis Staff and this provisional government of yours. Is that right or is that not right?

A. Mr. Milosevic, at that time I was not on the Crisis Staff or in the government. At that time, I was director of a company. And I can only say what I heard from people with whom I had contacts. I don't have any reliable or valid information about this.

Q. All right. But do you have any information about your Crisis Staff and generally speaking the authorities that had been organised there after the takeover of Zvornik? Did they play any role in this, in any ^{21841 BLANK PAGE 21842} crime that had been committed there against these detained persons?

A. I have no information of this kind.

Q. You mentioned the units of Captain Dragan. A witness here before you said that he came only with two or three men, that he was involved only in the training of the local Territorial Defence. Did you see this unit of his? Did he have a unit or did he not have a unit? I wish we could clarify that. According to the information I have, he did not have a unit at all. He was engaged in training.

JUDGE MAY: If you can keep your questions short, it will be much easier for the witness to answer.

What the accused is putting is that Captain Dragan didn't have a unit and that he came with just a few men. Can you assist us to that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is generally known. He came with two or three instructors and he gathered a unit out of the local people that he had taken over from the TO. He was supposed to train them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said on page 3 in this statement of yours that it is well known that the JNA supported the struggle of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

A. Yes, that's what I said.

Q. I would like us to be very specific about this now. This support, is it directly linked to a common value, so to speak, that both had one and the same objective, that is to say, to preserve Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. These Muslim forces, were they hostile towards the JNA? ²¹⁸⁴³

A. Yes.

Q. The Muslim leadership, did they order the Muslims not to respond to JNA call-ups?

A. Yes, that is generally known.

Q. So this has to do with working for the preservation of Yugoslavia, as concerns the JNA and as concerns the Serb population; isn't that right?

A. Yes. I've already said that the key point was the international recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the main problem for the army and for the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. This was said by Lord Carrington and other national representatives. As you often say here, the way you put it, this is a generally-known thing. But tell me now, please: On page 19, in the 12th paragraph, you refer to a certain Ratko Vidovic, who had been sent from Serbia; is that right?

A. I don't know exactly which contact this was, but Ratko Vidovic was not sent from anywhere. He was commander and then chief of police in Mali Zvornik throughout the war.

Q. I'm glad that we've cleared this up. So he had not been sent by anyone and he did not have any assignments there. He was simply a policeman there in the neighbouring municipality.

A. Yes, before the war and during the war.

Q. He did not hold any other particular office, especially not on the other side of the Drina.

A. No, he was just in charge of his own work.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question. ²¹⁸⁴⁴

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, as regards the municipal leadership of Zvornik, this newly-established government, Crisis Staff, et cetera, who did they report to about their work, the municipal leadership?

A. According to the plan, Plan A and Plan B, we belonged to the municipality that was in the B version. We reported to the Crisis Staff, which was then in Sarajevo, the Crisis Staff of the Serb Democratic Party.

Q. I would like to be very specific about this, because slowly we are going to paint an entire picture of all of this. I'm not only referring to your testimony but to others as well. So you directly reported to the Crisis Staff in Sarajevo. You did not go through the Crisis Staff of this Autonomous Region and so on and so forth. You directly reported to Sarajevo, your municipality did; right?

A. Yes. Because at that time, there weren't any Crisis Staffs of autonomous regions. They came into existence only later, just before the war broke out. So practically by then all communications with Sarajevo had been severed.

Q. All right. Were you in the Crisis Staff for a while?

A. Yes. I've already said that. I was in the Crisis Staff from its establishment until the 12th of April, 1992.

Q. Were you in charge of the Crisis Staff for a while?

A. No, I was never in charge of the Crisis Staff.

Q. On page 38, in paragraph 11, you say that you had a video cassette on which there is footage from a village which is called Godus, where the Patriotic League had been formed or, rather, this extremist military ²¹⁸⁴⁵ organisation.

Is that right?

A. Yes, that is right. These video materials were also shown on Bosnian television, and now on that particular site there is a monument that was built in memory of this event that took place in October in 1991.

Q. How many people were there in full combat gear and when did this happen?

A. This was in October 1991. And there was about a company there, about 100 people under full combat gear with radio communications, with all necessary equipment.

Q. You said 1991.

A. Yes, October 1991.

Q. At that time, there were no conflicts.

A. In the municipality of Zvornik and in all of Bosnia, there were no conflicts at the time.

Q. In all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were no conflicts at the time.

A. Yes.

Q. In October 1991, this Patriotic League, judging by all of this, was a paramilitary formation, wasn't it?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, knowledge of this nature, namely, things that had to do with the preparation and arming of these military -- of these Muslim formations, did they affect you? And when I say "did they affect you," I'm not referring to only you yourself but I am referring to you, the people of Zvornik. Did it cause concern among you? Did you start ²¹⁸⁴⁶ organising yourselves in order to defend yourselves and so on?

A. Yes. I already said this. After having found out about this, we went and asked for assistance.

Q. Was that the reason why you sought help from Arkan, for instance, the Serb Volunteer Guard?

A. At that time, I did not know Arkan. I was not aware of the existence of the Serb Volunteer Guard. But we did address our request for help to Serbia, and afterwards we did get in touch with Arkan too.

Q. Since you said during the examination-in-chief that you took his unit over the Drina and came to Zvornik with them, I'm just interested in one particular piece of information. You saw all of them. You said that there were about 20 of them; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. I'm not sure. It was about 10 or 12 years ago. But I said it was between 20 or 30 men.

Q. It's important to establish that because there were witnesses here who said that there were many more of them. And I have information that is similar to what you have said. I have information that there were 24 of them.

A. Mr. Milosevic, they were put up at the hotel in Radanj, which can take a total of 30 men.

Q. It wasn't only them who were there probably.

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. So we've managed to clear that point up, that Arkan ²¹⁸⁴⁷ with 20 men launched an aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, that is something that is being claimed here.

And tell me this, please: On page 43, you say that it was rumoured around Zvornik that you in fact brought Arkan into Zvornik.

A. Yes.

Q. I'm reading all this from your statement.

A. Yes.

Q. And then you go on to say that you did not oppose the rumours, you let people think what they wanted, that you were friends, and so on.

A. In 1992, when the war began in Zvornik, it was a good thing for people to think that Arkan was your friend. I never denied it, but actually I saw him in Bijeljina for the first time and heard of his existence only one day previously.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this, please --

THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the accused.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There was a meeting between Grujic, Radic, Pavlovic in Mali Zvornik, with the Muslim representatives. That's right, isn't it? That's what you say on page 44, I think.

A. Yes. I spoke about that last time. There's a videotape. And I apologise, Your Honours, when I enumerated the names. Stevo Radic did not attend the meeting. It was Mijatovic, Grujic, myself and Stevo Ivanovic on the Serb side. And on the Muslim side there was -- there were their own representatives. And Marko Pavlovic did not attend that particular meeting. ²¹⁸⁴⁸

Q. He did not?

A. No, he did not.

Q. All right. But the five of you did. There were the five of you from the top echelons of the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik; right?

A. Yes.

Q. How many representatives were there on the Muslim side, of the Muslim authorities?

A. There were also about five of them; it was parity on a parity basis. If there was the mayor on one side, there was the mayor on the other. If there was the chief of police on one side, there was the chief on the other, a parity balance.

Q. So people on the Muslim side were the same in rank as the people on your side, the Serb side; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was goal of the meeting? As far as I understand it, the object of the meeting was to reduce tensions generally and to quell the situation and to solve the problems in Zvornik in a peaceful way. Was that the purpose of the meeting, or was there some other purpose?

A. Yes, you have defined the main points of the meeting. Those were the points exactly, yes.

Q. And tell me this, please: Why did the meeting not succeed?

A. Well, we did reach an agreement. And I would say that the meeting was successful. But two days later it was not successful because we followed the situation, each of us in our own field, and two days later another meeting was organised, because among others we had decided to ²¹⁸⁴⁹ maintain constant communication and we decided to send the president of the then-municipality, the executive board, Mr. Mijatovic and Ivanovic to the meeting, and they also sent their president of the municipality.

Q. He was Mijatovic, was he?

A. Yes, Mijatovic was in the B version that we had set up before the war parallelly with the municipality.

Q. All right. Tell me this now, please: You say in referring to Pavlovic that he had links with politicians and generals. Could you tell us with which politicians and which generals?

A. I said that he had good relationships with the army. As to the politicians, I really don't know what his relationships with them were. But I do know that he did have relationships with Mr. Panic. I think he was at the time the head of the army, of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Well, from the statement -- or rather, your live testimony here, you said that he had some relations with the commander of the Tuzla Corps.

A. Yes. I know that he spent some time in Tuzla often. I know that he was in company with General Savo Jankovic, he was the commander of the Tuzla Corps at the time.

Q. And your area of responsibility was at the Tuzla Corps?

A. Yes. According to the JNA division, we came under the Tuzla Corps.

Q. And Pavlovic was commander of the Territorial Defence of your locality; right?

A. Yes. But I spoke about the contacts that he had prior to the conflict, while he was not commander of the TO yet. ²¹⁸⁵⁰

THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the question of the accused.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And you then appointed him TO commander; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then he maintained intensive contacts, as far as I was able to understand. Was it logical that in the area of responsibility of the JNA corps the command of the Territorial Defence of one -- a particular place in the area of responsibility should have contacts with the command of the corresponding units of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that you had very bad relations with Pavlovic, you were on bad terms with him.

A. I was on good terms with him until the 10th of 15th of April. After that, it's not that our relations were bad, but we had very -- we had contact on very rare occasions.

Q. Yes. I wanted to clear that up, because on page 49 I saw that you said that you were on bad terms with him. But I assume that you didn't say that in that way specifically. You've now explained to us. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You said you were on good terms first and then when you no longer did the job you did, there was no need to have any contact with him. That's about it, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me this, please: On page 50, you state the names of ²¹⁸⁵¹ four individuals, Marko Pavlovic, Brane Grujic, Rade Peric, and Marinko Vasilic. Those are the names of the people. Who are they? Who are these people?

A. Brane Grujic was the president of the municipality and Crisis Staff, the provisional government, in fact. Marko Pavlovic was the commander of the TO for a time. Marinko Vasilic was a man who was in the police force. He was my assistant. And afterwards, he performed other functions. He feels commander, chief, and so on. And Rade Peric for a time in 1992, up until February 1993, held the post of the president of the executive board of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik.

Q. So these four men that you list, you list by virtue of their offices, the positions they occupied; right?

A. Yes, probably in that context.

Q. Well, I'm asking you this because I understood from what is written here that you treat them as individuals who had to have been informed with everything that went on and that they were possibly responsible for any crimes, if any crimes were committed, that that's how you referred to them.

A. Well, no, Mr. Milosevic. But when you -- only when we speak of the chief of police. In 1992, five or six people performed that function, held that post. So there was a lot of rotation, as happened with the other posts and positions as well.

Q. All right. But may I understand it in this way, that you enumerate these people as being the most high responsible, holding the most high responsible posts? ²¹⁸⁵²

A. Yes, they held top posts.

Q. But you don't actually link them to any crimes that were commit there had. You just name them as people who were in the top echelons, that held the main posts.

A. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I do not correct connect them to any events that took place.

Q. Well, if you were enumerating, you would have to include your name on that list too?

A. Yes. At a given point in time, I held responsible posts and did mention myself during my testimony. At a certain point in time, I was TO commander, chief of police in Zvornik, et cetera.

Q. So what they knew, you had to know by virtue of office.

A. Yes. Up until the 20th of April, while I was in the Crisis Staff.

Q. That's why I wanted to clear this point up. I don't know if any of these people will be coming into the court here, so I assume that the knowledge they had was knowledge you shared too, so that we can clarify certain points, I hope, in the most authentic way possible. So those -- that is my line of thinking, and I'm trying to clear all this up. You said that a division took place, and at one point you said that negotiations were held, and you mentioned negotiations in particular between the Muslims, Serbs, and Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you remember that? Do you remember having mentioned that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please, these divisions which you planned and which you knew about -- ²¹⁸⁵³

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What I understood was that they in fact followed on from what was being negotiated between the parties at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know - and I assume that you must know, because you held a high function - that those divisions were then in a way defined and specified by the Cutileiro Plan, signed by all three parties?

A. Yes, I do know that the question was defined, that is to say, the position of Serbs in Bosnia was defined on the basis of that plan, and that a certain division had been agreed upon.

Q. Right, I see. And you do know that all three sides signed the plan?

A. Yes, I do know that.

Q. And are you aware of the fact that after that Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature?

A. Yes, I'm aware of that too. I know that he said that the plan would not hold true.

Q. Now, tell me, as somebody who delved in politics in a way and occupied a high-ranking post, was it like this: Negotiations were held at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an agreement and plan was reached, and in conformity with that plan certain divisions are made, after that Izetbegovic withdraws his signature and the divisions remain? Is that how it was? ²¹⁸⁵⁴

A. Yes. I think that after this plan was refuted by Izetbegovic, that the problems arose and the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina could no longer be controlled.

Q. And to follow on from that, the -- instead of agreement following on from that plan, what happened was conflict and clashes; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Fine. That's fine. I think we've clearly shown that to be the case.

Now, tell me this - and I'm just going to quote you on this point here, and I'm sure you'll recall having said it. I made a note of it while you were testifying several days ago - you were talking about the distribution of weapons, the issuance of weapons. "The Crisis Staff issued and distributed weapons to Serb villages according to an assessment of the degree to which these villages were threatened." Is that what you said?

A. Yes, that's exactly what I said.

Q. Can we then take it -- may we observe that these villages were in jeopardy, were threatened? Because your basic criteria for distributing weapons, according to what you yourself said, was your evaluation as to how far the Serb villages were threatened. So the villages were indeed threatened.

A. Our information was that the Muslim side was arming itself. And you must understand our positions. In Zvornik we made up under 39 per cent of the population, and we felt ourselves to be under threat, security-wise and safety-wise. ^{21855 BLANK PAGE 21856}

Q. But as far as I understand it from your explanations, in view of the different degree of jeopardy for the different villages, how far different villages were threatened, you evaluated the degree to which they were actually threatened.

A. Yes. There were Serb villages who were in a purely Muslim encirclement.

Q. And I'm sure you had information as to how far the other side were arming themselves and how far the Patriotic League was being formed and armed in 1991. Did all these factors -- were all these factors taken into consideration when you evaluated how far a village was threatened?

A. Yes, that's precisely how we did it.

Q. I think you even said -- well, not to say "even said." I just want to focus on a detail in your testimony. When you distributed the weapons according to the degree to which villages were under threat - and we have established that they were indeed under threat - you said that you kept records; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And all the people that were issued weapons would sign for it; right?

A. Yes, right.

Q. So there was no random distribution of weapons or - how shall I put this - secret, clandestine activities. Everybody would sign for the weapon he received. And this -- the purpose of receiving weapons was to defend the villages under threat.

A. Yes, the people would sign for it. All this was done according ²¹⁸⁵⁷ to -- in an organised fashion and planned fashion.

Q. Referring to the media, you said that there was a war in Croatia, the media were divided, each routed for its own side. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, as we're talking about your own region - and you know everything about that area, because you lived in it - was there anything on the subject of Zvornik which was published by the media that was false in any way, a lie in any way? Did the media publish any lies about Zvornik?

A. No, I have no information to that effect.

Q. You even said that Zvornik wasn't -- that the media didn't focus on Zvornik at all until the conflict broke out.

A. Yes, I think that's right. I don't think the media paid any attention to Zvornik until the conflict broke out.

Q. I should now like you to assist me, to help me clarify a particular point. It is exhibit -- the exhibit that was presented here. It is Exhibit -- and it is linked to the meeting -- it refers to the meeting you spoke about of the SDS in Sarajevo, at the Holiday Inn hotel on the 19th and 20th of December, 1991. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I do. I attended that meeting.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have Exhibit 434, tab 3.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you found it? You have. All right. Fine. At the meeting, the entire leadership of the SDS attended. ²¹⁸⁵⁸

A. Yes.

Q. As far as I understood it, you were given these instructions pertaining to the organisation and activities of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina under extraordinary situations, in an emergency situation.

A. Yes. This was distributed to the leaders of the board of the SDS.

Q. The SDS being the Serbian Democratic Party; right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, in tab 4 we have the conclusions. So you were at the meeting on the 19th and 20th of December held at the Holiday Inn hotel. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And already on the 22nd of December, as it says in this document, in tab 4, "The Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina, municipal board of Zvornik," that's what it says, you make the following conclusions, conclusions by which you implement the instructions given you; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, let's have a look at all this. As these instructions, this set of instructions, are in exhibit here, and they were presented a number of times and referred to a number of times, without - how shall I put it - without entering into its contents, actually, into the substance of the document itself. There is reference to Variant B -- Variant A and Variant B. And as you were absent for a few days, this gave me time to read through the document from start to finish. ²¹⁸⁵⁹

JUDGE MAY: I think we'd better return to this after the adjournment. It's now time to take the break.

We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have if you want it an hour and a quarter more with this witness, if you require it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness B-024, tell me, please, since you certainly read very carefully those instructions even then: As far as I'm able to see, reading through it, there's virtually no difference between what it says for Variant A and for Variant B. Most of the points are repeated in both versions, isn't that so?

A. Yes, that is right. The Variant B was envisaged for municipalities in which the Serbs were in a minority. And in Variant A, the Serbs already had power; whereas, in Variant B they didn't have power because they were in the minority. That is the major difference.

Q. That is the point. But let us go back to the territory of the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In those days, the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina was mostly in the hands of these three national parties, the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ. And representatives of the SDS had a little over one-third of deputy seats; isn't that right?

A. Yes. ²¹⁸⁶⁰

Q. And the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina was composed on a parity basis of Muslim, Serbs, and Croats; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the president of the Presidency was a Muslim.

A. Yes.

Q. He was Alija Izetbegovic, wasn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. And he became that because Fikret Abdic, who won more votes than he did, ceded his position to him though the prior agreement had been that the person who won most votes would become president.

A. Yes.

Q. And in view of the customary principle of equality of all three nations, the president of the whole assembly consisting of both Muslims, Croats, and Serb, was a Serb, wasn't he, Momcilo Krajisnik?

A. Yes.

Q. And when the division occurred, then Momcilo Krajisnik remained president but only president of the Assembly of Republika Srpska; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And after the proclamation of independence, without the participation of the Serb people in that referendum, the Serb representatives from the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina were virtually eliminated; isn't that so?

A. Yes.

Q. Now when we look at the differences between Variant A and B, ²¹⁸⁶¹ Variant A refers to those municipalities in which the Serbs have a majority, which means they have a majority in the municipal assembly and in which Serb representatives do have a hold on power. They are in power.

A. Yes.

Q. I would like to ask you then to read the second level of this Variant A, which has to do with municipalities with a Serb majority, and point 8 of this second level, that is, the municipalities in which Serbs are in power, Variant A I'm talking about, and it says: "In taking all these measures, attention should be paid to ensuring respect for the national and other rights of members of all nationalities and engage them later in government bodies which will be established by the Assembly of the Serb People in the municipality." Is that what it says?

A. Yes, precisely so.

Q. So where the Serbs are in power and where after the proclamation of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina they come into power, there is emphasis on the need to respect the rights of nations; whereas, in the municipalities where the Serbs are not in power, efforts were made in some way to rally together and protect the Serb part of the population; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And there is only one other difference, where in the second level it says: "The branch offices of the SDK are obliged to prevent an outflow of cash and securities from the vaults under their control at banks, post offices, and other financial organisations, as well as to speed up the daily monitoring of the payment system in their own area." This is point ²¹⁸⁶² 4. So the instruction is to prevent wasting of cash and withdrawal, outflows of cash and securities. So I haven't been able to identify any other difference between Variant A and B because everything else, like protecting people, children, pregnant women, the sick, the disabled, et cetera, these things apply to both Variant A and Variant B. So can we draw the conclusion that the key difference in Variant A, which refers to municipalities in which the Serbs are in power, is the emphasis that the government which is already in their hands must pay attention, and I quote, "To ensuring respect for the national and other rights of members of all nationalities and their late engagement in government bodies."

A. Yes.

Q. Since you were in possession of these instructions for much longer than I was, you analysed it and implemented it, did you notice any other difference between Variant A and B?

A. In my view too, the only difference in Variant B is that the Serbs where they are in a minority, to try to rally and to try and link up with any larger Serb territories with a view to protecting the population.

Q. Thank you. Is it true -- or rather, it is common knowledge, I would say, that Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally recognised on the 6th of April.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that that was when a soldier was killed?

A. Yes.

Q. So the killing of a soldier coincided with the recognition on the 6th of April. ²¹⁸⁶³

A. Yes.

Q. But this was a symbolic date, because the 6th of April is the day when Hitler attacked Yugoslavia in 1941; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. The Serbs did not recognise the independence of Bosnia, and then they formed a provisional government; isn't that right?

A. We had our own referendum of the Serb people, at which we declared that we would not accept such an international recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we did not take part in the referendum organised by the Muslims and Croats for independence.

Q. Let us not go into constitution and legal matters now, because even though I do believe that you are familiar with these things, you are not an expert in that field. Was it the practice and was the legal situation in B and H throughout the period prior to this to show maximum respect for members of all three nations, or rather, for decisions to be taken by consensus of all three nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. Yes, that was the practice. And in my personal opinion, that was the only solution had it remained as it was before.

Q. So by a referendum in which the Serbs did not participate, do you feel that the Serbs assessed that their rights had been infringed upon rightly?

A. That is what we believed, and 99 per cent of the Serbs did not support that option.

Q. And now, at least when we are talking about a political approach on the part of all parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the International ²¹⁸⁶⁴ Community, isn't the main principle the equality of all three ethnicities?

A. Yes, according to our constitution and according to the government measures. Yes.

Q. So with the outbreak of the war and after the end of -- prior to the outbreak of the war and after the end of the war, the equality of all three nations is respected and decisions need to be taken by consensus.

A. Yes, that is the principle applied today too.

Q. But when the war broke out, that principle was not observed at the expense of the Serb people; isn't that right?

A. That was our assessment at the time.

Q. On the 6th of April, independence was recognised; Bosnia was recognised, soldiers killed. And this happened on the 8th of April, what happened in Zvornik, didn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened in Zvornik, was it a consequence of these events?

A. I said in my testimony that a consequence of was the international recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the killing of the soldier was pouring oil on the flames of the situation as it was already at the time.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You mentioned in your oral testimony, according to my notes, that after the outbreak of the conflict in Zvornik volunteers started arriving from Serbia; is that right?

A. Yes. ²¹⁸⁶⁵

JUDGE MAY: Why is it -- just one moment. Let me see if I understand this. Why was it necessary for the Serbs to take Zvornik municipality? Why was that seen as a necessary action? Can you help us with that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't considered a necessary action. I didn't see that there was any plan to take Zvornik municipality. In accordance with Plan B, we withdrew to territory in which the Serbs had a majority, that is, around Karakaj and down the Drina River. However, in Mali Zvornik, we tried twice to agree with the Bosniaks on some sort of a status quo and to see what the solution would be for the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but with the arrival of Arkan and the slapping around of members of the Crisis Staff, he started slapping us around and asked us, "Who gave you the authority to negotiate with them, to sell out Serb land? This is Serbian." And he ordered an attack on Zvornik to be prepared.

JUDGE MAY: So you effectively blame the paramilitaries and Arkan in particular for what happened in the municipality; is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying here and claiming that while I was a member of the Crisis Staff we never mentioned the possibility of attacking Zvornik militarily because the Muslim population accounted for about 75 or 76 per cent of the population according to the 1991 census, but we were all beaten, we were all lined up, and we were ordered. Actually, other men took over control over the staff. At least, that was my understanding, and that is why I left it. We were no longer in control. We had to stand at attention when Arkan walked in or his ²¹⁸⁶⁶ deputy Pejic and we were in a subordinate position.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But you brought Arkan to Zvornik.

A. No, I didn't bring him. I physically got in touch with him. I was the first one to get in touch with him from the Crisis Staff.

Q. And that was in Bijeljina.

A. Yes.

Q. And as you yourself said, you brought him to Zvornik.

A. No. His unit with Pejic was accommodated in Radanj and then he came to Zvornik later.

Q. So he came later. But you brought the unit with Pejic at its head and put them up in Radanj; is that right? And at the time, you were a member of the Crisis Staff.

A. Yes, I was a member of the Crisis Staff at the time.

Q. You were chief of police?

A. No, I was commander of the police station.

Q. I see. Well, that is more or less the same thing.

A. No, it isn't. It's a big difference, Mr. Milosevic. Chief of police is one thing, and commander of the police station is another.

Q. Very well. Explain to me now, please, why on the basis of what you said - and I took note of it somewhere - that they said, "In the event of an outbreak of conflict, they were there to assist the Serb people." This was said by Arkan or Pejic; I'm not sure which. I took note of it ²¹⁸⁶⁷ here.

A. Pejic.

Q. I see. The person you met. So he represented that unit.

A. Yes.

Q. And he said that should a conflict occur, they were there to assist the Serb people in Zvornik. That is what he said, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Then how do you then explain that they provoked the attack on Zvornik?

A. I'm telling you this. You can invite somebody to your house as a guest and they take -- abuse your hospitality and take over control and command.

Q. As far as I can see from my notes, as Mr. Groome put a question to you as to how long Arkan was in Zvornik, and you said he was there twice for one or two hours each time. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then later on, when he left, then others took over command. What command could he have had over Zvornik if he was there twice for an hour or two each time? And I quoted you as saying that this one, this Pejic said that they were there to assist the Serb people should a conflict arise.

A. There must be some confusion. When I said that Arkan was in command, I meant while his unit was there. I'm testifying that throughout the stay -- his stay in Zvornik, whether it was he or Pejic, but his unit, while they were in Zvornik no one had any say about anything from little ²¹⁸⁶⁸ things to big things in Zvornik.

Q. Only 20 men?

A. Yes, he had 20-odd men. But the problem is that at the beginning, all those volunteer units who had spent time at various theatres of war all over Croatia and elsewhere placed themselves under his control.

Q. All right. You said that the volunteers started coming in after the conflict broke out.

A. No, I said that a group of volunteers started coming in, starting on the 6th of April, immediately when the incidents broke out and when we went out to Karakaj. But most arrived a day before the attack and on the actual day of the attack on Zvornik.

Q. Yes. But when you were asked about the number, you said -- I wrote this down -- that "There were over 100 volunteers from Serbia." Is that right?

A. Yes. There were certainly more than 100 of them.

Q. So about 100 volunteers from Serbia. And what about the Territorial Defence of Zvornik? How many people were there then and the police?

A. Well, we had about 30 to 40 Serb policemen who were there at the police station. We had about 200 men from the Territorial Defence. Because the rest were deployed in their own villages, and they had also been surrounded. However, you have to know that at that time we did not know what a war was and what kind of an experience this was; whereas, almost 90 per cent of those people had already had the experience of war from Croatia and they knew about all these variants and about the ^{21869 BLANK PAGE 21870} psychological effects of warfare and so on and so forth, whereas we were taken aback at the time.

Q. All right. I just wanted to clarify these facts. So about 100 volunteers came to help you, and then it turned out that these volunteers who had come to help you to defend yourselves, and as you said yourself in case a conflict broke out to help the Serb people, that they actually caused the conflict, and that without their presence this conflict never would have occurred. Is that what you're claiming?

A. I'm saying that the Crisis Staff tried all the time to work out an agreement with the SDA, that it was politically in charge of Zvornik and had Zvornik under its control. And I never attended a meeting of the Crisis Staff where people said that Zvornik should be attacked or taken over militarily. And I claim that when Arkan came, the Crisis Staff was beaten up, slapped around. He talked about it publicly several times, about ten times on TV, in the media, and he said that Zvornik had to be attacked.

Q. He beat you up? He slapped you around?

A. Yes, me inter alia.

Q. So Arkan is the one who caused the war in Zvornik? Is that what you're trying to say?

A. I'm not trying to say that without Arkan there wouldn't have been a war in Zvornik. I'm saying that the direct order issuing authority for the attack on Zvornik was him.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²¹⁸⁷¹

Q. Are you saying that there would not have been a war in Zvornik without him? What you did, at the level of Zvornik, when you were endeavouring to work out a solution with the Muslim side.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the same thing that the leadership did within Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serb side, were they trying to work out a solution with the Muslim side?

A. Your Honour, I testified here about the things I know and the things I saw, and this is a hypothetical question. What would have happened if the order to attack Zvornik had not been issued?

JUDGE MAY: If you're asked a question you can't give the answer to, just say so.

Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you followed these instructions that we commented upon a while ago. You establish a Territorial Defence. You distribute weapons to Serb villages depending on their degree of endangerment. And you establish the Serb authorities. You have the Serb police, and so on and so forth. And all of this is beyond all these events that occurred. And then about 20 men come in, 20 men that you brought in from Bijeljina, 20 of Arkan's men, and then they're the ones who caused the conflict in Zvornik. Is that your testimony?

A. Mr. Milosevic, according to Variant B, we did what had been envisaged. We withdrew to the territory where the Serbs had a majority. We separated our government authorities, and this Variant B, there is no ²¹⁸⁷² mention of us taking over towns where the Muslims were a majority. So I am saying what I know because I was present there. In the Crisis Staff we never had any discussions about taking over Zvornik militarily.

Q. But you do claim that Arkan with 20 men would have taken it over. You said a while ago that there were 500 reserve policemen.

JUDGE MAY: I think he's given his answers about this. And there's a limit to what he can be asked.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I wrote this down here, that you said the first morning at the staff you were in slippers, you said, because you had been wounded. The TO units and the volunteers took over Zvornik and put it under Serb control. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you wounded?

A. Two days before that, at the staff, a member of the Crisis Staff dropped the detonator from a hand grenade and just this one little part and that's how I was wounded.

Q. And when was the provisional government established in Zvornik?

A. I don't know exactly when this happened, but after the Crisis Staff they appeared as the highest-ranking civilian authority. So it was the provisional government.

Q. Tell me, please: You said -- actually, we clarified a while ago that in this conflict in Zvornik the JNA did not participate at all. But then later on you talk about Captain Obrenovic from the JNA. And in these ²¹⁸⁷³ tabs we saw that he was receiving a salary as a member of the Territorial Defence of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik. So is this a representative of the Army of Republika Srpska who had been a member of the JNA before, or are we talking about a JNA unit that was present there?

A. Obrenovic changed various ranks, from captain to lieutenant colonel. He came to the area of Zvornik as a JNA unit before the conflict broke out, perhaps a few months prior to that. He was there throughout. And I know because he comes from Rogatica, which is in Republika Srpska. When the Army of Republika Srpska was established, he transferred into the regular Army of Republika Srpska. I know that he received a salary from the JNA and also from the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Let's clarify this, then. Captain Obrenovic is a man from Republika Srpska who, as you say, a few months before that had been in the JNA while the JNA was in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a regular army; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Later on, when the JNA withdrew, a number of officers, soldiers stayed behind, those who originally came from Republika Srpska, the Army of Republika Srpska was established and he was an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And towards the end of May 1992, you say the Zvornik Brigade was established of the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. Yes.

Q. You said that the commanders changed, and only towards the end of ²¹⁸⁷⁴ 1992 this command was stabilised; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And why was this Marko Pavlovic arrested, who was commander of the TO? I wrote this down here. You said he was arrested by the special unit of the police of Republika Srpska in July 1992.

A. Yes, he was arrested in this particular operation, when quite a few volunteers were captured. I don't know why he was arrested, but I know that he did spend some time in detention in Bijeljina, and after that I read in the papers that he had been released.

Q. As for the presence of volunteers, in the questions that were put to you here a unit of the Territorial Defence from Loznica is mentioned; is that right?

A. Probably. I don't know which segment you're looking at right now, but I don't really find this very clear. I don't understand.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There were volunteers from Loznica, but this was not a TO unit from Loznica. These were volunteers from Loznica.

A. Yes. That is beyond any dispute. There was no unit from Loznica. There were volunteers from Loznica.

Q. Thank you very much. That is what I wanted us to clarify in order to prevent any kind of manipulation.

Again, you talk about Karisik. Karisik was chief of the military police or chief of police?

A. No. He was head of the special police of the MUP of Republika ²¹⁸⁷⁵ Srpska.

Q. [Microphone not activated]

A. Yes, in 1992.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now I have information here that their task was to arrest members of various paramilitary units that were disturbing the peace in town or that were involved in any kind of crime.

A. Correct.

Q. So from the top echelons of Republika Srpska this unit had to be commanded or at least it had to be the top of the Ministry of the Interior that had to issue orders to them. Their task was to arrest those who were creating unrest in town or committing crimes.

A. Yes.

Q. Were they actually doing this?

A. Yes, I think this is well known that towards the end of July they did arrest about 20 people in Zvornik, including Marko Pavlovic.

Q. It was stressed several times here that Biljana Plavsic came there. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You said before and after the conflict broke out.

A. Yes.

Q. She came in her capacity as member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina or vice-president of the presidency of Republika Srpska, was that right? ²¹⁸⁷⁶

A. There was no Republika Srpska presidency at the time. She was then a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. The only reason why she came there was to familiarise herself with the situation there.

A. Yes, in the area, at local level.

Q. She tried to work in favour of calming the situation down; right?

A. Well, the situation did not calm down. The leadership of Republika Srpska and we at local level had already started carrying out this plan, and we did not recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina as it was recognised internationally and under the conditions under which it had been recognised.

Q. And do you know who invited this unit, Arkan's unit, the Serb Volunteer Guard? Who asked them to come to Bijeljina. From Bijeljina they came to Zvornik.

A. I don't know. The first time I heard of Arkan's unit was when the Oslobodjenje daily newspaper wrote about it. I remember that on the front page there was a photograph from Bijeljina and a headline saying "Arkan killing and looting," something to that effect. But I don't know who brought him to Bijeljina, actually.

Q. Was he killing and looting though?

A. I really don't know what happened in Bijeljina. I was in Bijeljina only for an hour, and I was on the premises of the cultural centre, so I really don't know.

Q. You don't know anything about what happened in Bijeljina and about the way they came there? You only know about their number and how they ²¹⁸⁷⁷ actually arrived in Hotel Radanj?

A. Yes. Everything I know about Bijeljina is what I read about in the newspapers or what I heard about from other people, but I personally do not have any knowledge about this.

Q. You said that later your company had and put at the disposal of the Army of Republika Srpska, as you had put it yourself, two or three trucks. Your company was engaged for these priority needs of the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. Yes. This was a state-owned company, a socially-owned company, where I was general manager.

Q. Do you know what these trucks transported?

A. I never went on these trucks, and I don't know what they transported. I only heard the comments of the drivers. They said that they were transporting things that were required by the TO.

Q. Was it food, blankets, wheat, flour, sugar, oil, other things that were coming in by way of assistance, aid?

A. This is indirect. I'm saying what I heard about from others. But they were transporting food, footwear, clothing, and military equipment, anything they were ordered to transport.

Q. You say that this was regular procedure. Civilian trucks and also customs procedure was followed. It wasn't that customs duty was paid, but customs recorded all of this.

A. Yes, for tax purposes.

Q. In view of these customs records, do you know about what kind of goods were involved? ²¹⁸⁷⁸

A. We, as the actual forwarders, did not get this from the customs offices. This was done for the purposes of the TO. So we only got the commercial documents involved. However, from the moment when the truck was engaged until it returned, I as general manager and my co-workers did not have any control over these vehicles, nor did we have any insight into what they were actually transporting.

Q. Tell me, please, Mr. B-024: When did you become a member of the Serb Democratic Party?

A. Well, I became a member of the Serb Democratic Party in 1991, sometime in the summer of 1991.

Q. In the summer of 1991.

A. Yes.

Q. I assume that you voluntarily joined the SDS.

A. Yes, quite voluntarily.

Q. Tell me, what was the reason for your joining this party? There were other parties too, in addition to the SDA. I understand that you would not have joined the SDA, and I imagine there was no HDZ in Zvornik.

A. No, there was a negligible number of Croats in Zvornik.

Q. Yes. So what was the reason for your decision to join this political party?

A. Well, quite simply, national parties were established in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this led to a total polarisation among the people. And in fact, 95 per cent of the Serbs joined the SDA -- no, I'm sorry, the SDS and 95 per cent of the Muslims to the SDA and the Croats had an even larger percentage in this respect. ²¹⁸⁷⁹

Q. I imagine that when you acceded to this political party you actually agreed with its objectives and those of its president, Radovan Karadzic?

A. Yes, but then Radovan Karadzic at that time was an unknown person. The key point was for us to remain together with Serbia. This part of the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina had as the key programme of the party not to allow Yugoslavia to break up, and we wanted to go on living together with Serbia.

Q. Tell me now: Since you were shown various payrolls here - I don't want to waste any time in this respect. You were already given all of this, these different tabs - payrolls of members of the TO of Zvornik. You remember that? We don't have to get them out; right?

A. Yes.

Q. These were in fact people who were employed in the Zvornik municipality, weren't they?

A. Yes, they were those employees and the Territorial Defence and the police were also given their salaries from there.

THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the question. The interpreters apologise.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They received it from the budget of the provisional government.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And tell me, how did the provisional leadership come by the funds and money they needed for their budget for paying out the salaries and all the other expenditure? ²¹⁸⁸⁰

A. Well, there were two ways in which this was done. The municipality had its regular incomes and revenues. I don't want to go into the details of where this came from. And the other way is that there were taxes that the municipality imposed on companies, and they would have to pay a certain amount of money to -- for the budget from its incomes and revenues in order to finance this.

Q. All right. And if one were to add up all this, these were the usual -- this was the usual way in which this was done, through taxation and so on, the moneys accrued in this way and which were customary in peacetime as well.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did anybody from the territory of your municipality, somebody who was a member of the municipal organs, bodies, Territorial Defence, or anything of that kind, were they paid by a state organ from the Republic of Serbia at all?

A. No, not to my knowledge. As far as I know, nobody was paid from Serbia.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And is it --

JUDGE MAY: Your microphone isn't on. Yes. Start again.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And is it true, apart from these taxes, the taxation that you mentioned, many economic legal entities from the Zvornik area, did they contribute besides what they were legally bound to do, in view of the ²¹⁸⁸¹ general, social needs and circumstances in those times of crisis in Zvornik? Did they contribute at all?

A. Yes, that is true. And the whole of the economy, we could say, served the function of war.

Q. All of them, to all intents and purposes; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 13 of the transcript, you said that the various Zvornik enterprises, Metalka, et cetera, helped out. You only quoted that by way of an example, because all the economic enterprises helped.

A. Yes, that's quite right. There were no exceptions. Each gave as much as they were able to.

Q. So let's put that right then. I understood you to say that the money was used to finance some wartime expenditures of the municipality. It wasn't wartime expenditures. It was the overall expenditures of the municipality; is that right?

A. Yes, that's absolutely correct. For all expenditures, overall expenditures. Of course, during the war, the war expenditure amounted to the highest amounts.

Q. Well, wouldn't you say that the highest amount was paid out by way of salaries for the territorials?

A. Yes, that's quite true.

Q. All right. And do you consider, since you had an insight into what was going on, that the money that was collected by the municipality was used for set purposes, pursuant to the law and rules and regulations and the decisions that you yourselves made? ²¹⁸⁸²

A. There were different controls that were -- and checks that were conducted, and it was never abused. The local authorities, of course, would pinpoint the priority areas to be financed.

Q. So the municipality paid from those funds various volunteer units too, or rather, volunteers, regardless whether they were units or not, but let's say volunteers.

A. At that time the volunteers were very welcome, because we were in the minority, so it was our position that we should treat volunteers just like any other regular soldier in the TO, that they be given equal treatment.

Q. I'd like you to clear one point up: In your statement - I think it was on page 9; yes, it was - you said that the official policy of Serbia stood behind Arkan. Where did you get that from? How come you get that idea, and did you really say what it says in the statement?

A. Yes, I did. I also added that that was my personal impression, in view of the fact that he came to Zvornik for the first time wearing -- or rather, in a police vehicle. He came officially, passing through official checkpoints, across the bridge. So that's the impression I gained.

Q. So this was just your personal impression. And if I recall correctly, I think you said that the police vehicle had the license plates denoting the federal SUP; is that right?

A. As I worked in the police force, I could distinguish between the license plates and numbers. We had different numbers for each individual republic. And the Federal SUP would have 9 as the initial digit. And he arrived in a Golf which belonged to the Federal SUP, and the license ^{21883 BLANK PAGE 21884} plates began with the number 9.

Q. All right. And apart from the fact that this was your impression, gained on the basis of the license plates of the Federal SUP on the Golf vehicle, Volkswagen Golf vehicle, which brought Arkan to Zvornik, were you able to gain this impression from anything else, in any other way, by any kind of support on the part of the representative of any state organ of Serbia, for example?

A. I've already said that during my testimony, that apart from the fact that there was a lot of media coverage by certain papers, I have no official knowledge about his contacts with certain individuals, and I know that Kostic always spoke in negative terms about him and his human side.

Q. Well, the man you've just mentioned I believe was in the organs of Serbia. Was he a member of Serb organs?

A. Yes. He told me that he was an employee of that institution, but my contacts with him were of a private nature. I would never go to see him in his office. We would either meet at my home or his home.

Q. All right. In view of the position that you held, do you happen to recall that it was precisely the leadership of the republic of Serbia which categorically strove to ensure that any kind of unit or volunteers had to be placed under the command of the JNA and that was the only armed force that we considered to be the legal and legitimate armed force? Do you remember that?

A. If one were to watch television at the time and read the paper, then one would know that that was the official position taken by the authorities in Serbia. I was one of the people that did watch television ²¹⁸⁸⁵ and read the papers.

Q. And let me add to this. I'm sure you'll remember that the JNA was accused for the fact that -- of the support it enjoyed by the leadership of Serbia as an integrative part of Yugoslavia.

A. Yes, but bear in mind that I'm talk about the situation in the field, on the ground. I know what the official policy was. But of course when it was translated into practice, things didn't always follow that pattern.

Q. And tell me this: What were your assignments and duties in the Crisis Staff?

A. I was the commander of the police station. That was my task. Because all these were delineated in the Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff came into being following on from Variant A and B, and it stipulated which officials would be part of the Crisis Staff. As the commander of the police station, I became a member of the Crisis Staff.

Q. Brano Grujic was the president at that time, wasn't he?

A. Brano Grujic was the president of the Crisis Staff, yes, at the beginning of the war.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused repeat the question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you consider that he can --

JUDGE MAY: You're asked to repeat the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I asked whether you were on good terms with Mr. Grujic.

A. Yes. ²¹⁸⁸⁶

Q. Do you consider that he performed his duties in a proper and correct manner?

A. As far as I know, while I was in the Crisis Staff, yes, I do think his conduct was proper.

Q. Tell me, please: Did you consider that the establishment of the Crisis Staff was indispensable in view of the overall situation in those areas, in the region?

A. Yes, all of us in Zvornik agreed that it was absolutely necessary to establish a Crisis Staff, and not only in Zvornik. It was established in all the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. On page 7, points 4 to 9, under number 6 you state that it was the general position taken -- official position taken by the leadership of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and with you too that on the territory which was under Serb control the Muslims must be accepted as being citizens of equality -- on a footing of equality like the Serb population. Is that right?

A. Yes. And in that statement, under point A, I mention Plan A and Plan B.

Q. Tell me, please, but very briefly: What was your attitude and position towards the disruption -- to the disruption of Yugoslavia or the disintegration of Yugoslavia? Because I don't want it to be a leading question.

JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of this? You've asked him -- you've asked him about what was happening in the municipality. You've asked him about his political views. What is the relevance of his ²¹⁸⁸⁷ attitude towards the disruption of Yugoslavia? He said, as I understood it, that he wanted all the Serbs -- wanted to live with the Serbs in Serbia.

Is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about Yugoslavia, Mr. May, not about Serbia.

JUDGE MAY: Well, what is --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So when I say --

JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of it?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When I say "you," when I use the V, the second person plural, I'm not thinking about him personally. I'm referring to the population of that region. And I'm asking you -- I'm asking him whether it is clear that the -- practically the entire population was in favour of preserving Yugoslavia over there.

A. Yes, that is unequivocally correct, without a doubt.

JUDGE MAY: Let's clarify that. The entire population or the entire Serb population?

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Serb population.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb population.

JUDGE MAY: All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And is it true that quite a lot of the Muslim ²¹⁸⁸⁸ inhabitants were also in favour of preserving Yugoslavia? Would that be true too?

A. I am aware that a portion of the Muslims, a smaller portion, were in favour of preserving Yugoslavia.

Q. So this break-up or disintegration came from the leadership, not the people, when we're talking about the Muslims; is that right? Would that be right?

JUDGE MAY: I don't think that's a matter for this witness. It may be a matter we'll have to decide in due course.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Tell me now in general terms, but briefly, please: Did the Serbs in Zvornik prepare themselves for a defence or for an aggression of some kind?

A. I've said this on a number of occasions here, exclusively for defence purposes.

Q. Now, tell me this, please - and I just have a few questions related to something that you spoke about this morning in part - on page 52, in fact, of this statement of yours you say that Grujic told you that General Subotic had come to Zvornik with the task of destroying mass graves. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please tell me first, who is General Subotic?

A. Well, I didn't know him personally. I met him at Grujic's house. He's a man I know who for a time performed the function of the Minister of Defence in Republika Srpska. ²¹⁸⁸⁹

Q. Minister or deputy minister?

A. I think he was the Minister of Defence of Republika Srpska.

Q. And tell me, please: Was anybody else present when Grujic told you this?

A. No. You don't talk about things like that in a large company.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Did these mass graves exist at all, the mass graves that Subotic was supposed to remove or liquidate, judging by what you said?

A. From the knowledge I have so far and the information media, quite obviously some did exist. Some have been. Some were uncovered and proved to have existed.

Q. Well, I'm not talking about the information media. I'm asking about you personally. You were in Zvornik throughout, and you say that Grujic told you that Subotic had arrived to destroy this. A moment ago we noted that you would have had to have known what they knew. So did these mass graves exist in Zvornik or did they not? Did you know about these mass graves or did you not?

A. Mr. Milosevic, up until --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer in his own way. Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there until the 20th of April, in the Crisis Staff, that is. And I can say with full responsibility that no mass graves existed until that time. After that, I didn't work in the ²¹⁸⁹⁰ police. I wasn't a member of the Crisis Staff after that. And I can only say what was rumoured and the stories that were told. I have no personal knowledge about the existence of these mass graves.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you have no knowledge at all about the fact that they existed?

A. I said I have an awareness of this from the information media and from what was generally known, but I personally do not have any knowledge of that.

Q. Well, I'm asking you personally, because you're testifying here now. Now, what the information media say, anybody can read that. You were asked by Mr. Groome who you recognised from the tape. You said that it was played extensively on television programmes dating back to 1997, the celebration. That's what I'm talking about, the specials operations units in Kula. Is that right?

A. You remember that?

Q. And you said that you recognised Lukovic, Legija; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you also said that you recognised Captain Dragan; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So these were the two men that you recognised.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, is it true that when it comes to Lukovic, Legija, because he asked you about who you recognised in Zvornik, that at the time he was a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guards of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

A. Yes, that's right. ²¹⁸⁹¹

Q. He had nothing to do with the police of the Republic of Serbia.

A. That's right. In 1992, I do know that he had no links with the police.

Q. And with respect to Captain Dragan, we noted that he didn't have a unit of any kind over there but came with two or three men who were instructors to assist in the training of the territorial men, engaged in Territorial Defence. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, explain this to me, please, what you were asked by Mr. Groome: He asked you about the attack on Divic. Is it true that the JNA did not take part in the attack on Divic?

A. As far as I know, that is true.

Q. Did any unit from Serbia take part in the attack on Divic?

A. I don't know which unit. But I do know that from Mali Zvornik and this part of Serbia, from the side of Serbia fire was opened towards Divic. And there is still evidence of bullet shots. But which were the units opening fire, I really don't know.

Q. You said somebody from the hydro powerplant?

A. Yes.

Q. So that's what you mean when you say from Serbia?

A. Yes, the hydro powerplant is in Serbia.

Q. Yes, I understand. But it's on the Drina, isn't it? The dam, as far as I know, is between two banks of the river, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. When talking very briefly about this event in Celopek, without ²¹⁸⁹² going into all the details of those events, is it true that the perpetrators were arrested not only by the police in Yugoslavia but in cooperation with the police of Republika Srpska?

A. Yes, that is generally known.

Q. So the police from Serbia and the police of Republika Srpska arrested that group together?

A. Yes.

Q. I wish to underline this, because you must have known this, first of all. And secondly, it is being attributed to the police of Republika Srpska, but the police of Republika Srpska took part in their arrest and not in the event, to make this quite clear.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, tell me, this event in connection with Karakaj, it's not clear to me. According to information I have, the people who were detained there were driven off for some sort of an exchange from there. Even a witness a few days ago, speaking about the detainees held in Pilica - is the name in the nominative Pilice or Pilica - that they were driven off for an exchange afterwards. Can you tell me anything about what actually happened there, as far as you know, according to your own knowledge, aside from the rumours? Do you have any personal knowledge about that?

A. This morning, answering a similar question, I said that the people had surrendered. The men were separated from the women and children. The women and children were sent to Kalesija. The men were rounded up in the school in Karakaj. Two men were driven off to be exchanged. And they ²¹⁸⁹³ took with them a list to Tuzla, to hand in to the staff in Tuzla, to try and exchange. And I know that those two men, Aga Lupic is one name, and another one, Alijic, the president of the SDA. They left and took this list of people who were left behind at the school in Karakaj.

Q. So if I understand you correctly, two men from this group were sent to Tuzla to the authorities under Muslim control; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. To take with them a list and propose an exchange for the detained Serbs held by the Muslim authorities; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, explain to me, please: Do you know anything about those people being killed? I don't mean those two men who went to Tuzla with the list, but these others who were left behind.

A. I have no direct knowledge. I know that the people were in custody at the school in Karakaj. What happened later on, I don't know. But only what everyone knows from the press, that the people were killed and that some were found in mass graves as bodies -- or rather, dead bodies were found.

Q. So you have no personal knowledge. All the personal knowledge you have is what you already told me in answer to one of my questions, when you said that Karakaj was under the control of the Zvornik police and the Territorial Defence of Zvornik; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you make inquiries later on, among them to learn whether those people had been exchanged, how many had been killed, how many had ²¹⁸⁹⁴ been exchanged, and so on? Do you have any idea about that?

A. I told you that I personally do not know what happened. But the original story was that they were taken to be exchanged at Batkovic. After that -- very shortly after that, there was rumours in Zvornik that those people had been killed.

Q. I want to make it quite clear. You referred to Kozluk. Was anyone killed in Kozluk?

A. I have no information that anyone was killed there.

Q. Who ordered the people to leave Kozluk? I assume that you know that a list of citizens of Kozluk was sent, that is, people who wanted to move out, and that they moved out through Serbia and those who entered Serbia, left Serbia and went to third places. Did anyone force them? Did they leave because of the danger that threatened them? Who organised it? Who ordered it? Did anyone force them out by force?

A. This happened in July. I was not a member of the Crisis Staff by then, and I really don't know the details. I know that in April we persuaded them not to move out of Kozluk. We provided some basic requirements that they needed, like healthcare, food, et cetera. As to what happened later on, I know as much as everyone else from stories that went round town.

Q. I wonder if you could try and assist me in clearing up another question that you mentioned this morning. That was mentioned only in passing. Mr. Groome was asking you something in connection with the report of the Drinatrans about a transport. And then you say Zvornik-Bijeljina-Batkovic on the 15th of July 600 detainees. And from ²¹⁸⁹⁵ the information I have, this Batkovic was a centre for exchange and the Red Cross was continuously present there.

A. I never went to Batkovic, but I heard the same report as you did.

Q. And the people who went to Batkovic, were they going to be exchanged or did perhaps somebody liquidate those people?

A. I don't know that, except that I was able to reach the -- read the invoice, and one can see the figures. But I don't know what lies behind that invoice.

Q. So all you know about Batkovic is what I mentioned just now, nothing more than that.

A. No, nothing more.

Q. So let us look at a few other exhibits that I would like to ask you to clarify. For instance, this one, 13. Here the Basic Investment Bank in Belgrade, InvestBanka and then it says request for financial funds for the payment of April salaries, et cetera. This is the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik which sent this request?

JUDGE MAY: -- To pensions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What it says here: "Basic economic investment bank in Belgrade has nothing to do with Belgrade because it is the business outlet in Tuzla." That's right. So it's a bank in Tuzla which was part of the system of a Yugoslav bank which had business branches all over Yugoslavia, didn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Branch offices all over Yugoslavia. ²¹⁸⁹⁶

A. Right.

Q. Therefore, that bank covered the region of Tuzla and it was through it that pensions were paid.

A. Yes.

Q. And this was a local institution, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Let me just see a few other documents. I think this is tab 6, a list for payments of members of the TO of the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik for the month of May 1992. Again -- but I think we've cleared that up, and we know now that this was your own local institution making payments.

I had a few other notes, but I must admit I don't find my way easily in these tabs.

I wanted to ask you to explain, because this question refers to a period while you were still in office. What is this order? It is under tab -- I'll tell you in a minute -- number 9. It's an order on determining places for funerals and methods of burying persons killed in the war in the town of Zvornik and its environs, that is, within the territory of Zvornik municipality. Can you see that?

JUDGE MAY: Have you got that, Witness? You have it. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Then it says, under point 1, that "Muslims should be buried at the Muslim cemetery in Kazambasca." That was a Muslim cemetery, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. "Except for those whose bodies families take over in due time and ^{21897 BLANK PAGE 21898} who wish to bury them somewhere else"; isn't that right? And then in point 2, at the Serb cemetery in Karakaj, "The killed should be buried that are known to be Serbs." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. "Except for those whose bodies are taken over by their families in due time who wish to bury them somewhere else."

And then it also says that a commission should examine, identify, record, and select the various bodies, and this is an order which I assume -- it says "The provisional government of the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik."

JUDGE MAY: We don't -- we don't, in fact, have this document, do we? Unless it's part of something --

MR. KAY: It's the right-hand side of the B/C/S version we have. We've had translated the left-hand side of the page, if you turn over the page in tab 9, go to the B/C/S version, it's the right-hand side.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we only translated the left-hand side, because that was the portion we intended to rely on.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Now that Mr. Milosevic has raised it, I've asked Ms. Wee to get a translation of the other side of the page.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, without a doubt. Now, you've got five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem. I just wanted to clear this point up as well, Mr. May. Regardless of the fact that I see that it hasn't been translated. ²¹⁸⁹⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The date here is the 21st of April, which means two weeks -- almost two weeks after the outbreak of the conflict. So when some sort of order was being restored in Zvornik. So my question to you, Mr. B-024, is: This decision of the provisional government, does it testify to a non-discriminatory attitude, or rather completely equal-handed attitude towards people killed in the conflict, both Serbs and Muslims, during the conflict starting on the 8th of April? And in view of the position that you held at the time, could you comment on this?

A. This is an order published in the Official Gazette of Zvornik Municipality, and it is generally known. It came into effect the day after I left the Crisis Staff, which I left on the 12th of April. But it is obvious that it is as you say, an attempt to restore some sort of order.

Q. Tell me also, please: Apart from what you said, you were chief of police, did you have any other positions in Zvornik during this time, that is, from the beginning of 1992 onwards, until the end of the war that you're testifying about, the end being 1995?

A. Yes. In 1992, from April, until the beginning of 1993, I was manager of Autotransport. Then I was president of the executive board of the municipality.

Q. When were you president of the government, local government?

A. From the end of February until the beginning of September 1993.

Q. So virtually you were the town mayor of Zvornik in 1993/1994?

A. No, no. Only in 1993. From February 1993 until September. It is ²¹⁹⁰⁰ really the second by significance in the civilian authorities; the first being the president of the assembly, and the second being the president of the executive council or board.

Q. So you were the main figure of the executive branch of the authorities of Zvornik.

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Tell me, in those days, how were members of other ethnic groups treated, primarily Muslims in the municipality?

A. The situation was such, Mr. Milosevic, in 1993 that there were no Muslims in Zvornik, only those who might have been detained.

THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. We didn't hear the question.

THE WITNESS: You could count on the figures of one hand some mixed marriages. Because in our town there was total ethnic separation between May and June 1992.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And where did the Muslims from Zvornik go?

A. Mostly towards Tuzla and the internal part of the Federation; whereas, many refugees came from Tuzla and Zenica. There was a complete change of ethnic structure, a major migration of the population. So.

Q. So refugees were coming from, where did you say, Zenica?

A. Tuzla and the whole region.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. I'm sorry, we can't --

JUDGE MAY: You'll have to get your microphone on. Make sure it's on. Yes, I know there's a difficulty with it. Just make sure the microphone is on. Have a pause between question and answer. ²¹⁹⁰¹ Now, you've got -- you've got two minutes left for this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, Mr. B-024: How many Serbs from Central Bosnia and the Tuzla region settled in Zvornik in those days and in 1993 when you headed the executive branch? I assume you had a clear idea about that.

A. Between 10 and 15 thousand people.

Q. 15 thousand people? And why did they come there?

A. Because they had no conditions to live in Central Bosnia and because of fear of the war and the war operations.

Q. For the same reason for which Muslims had left Zvornik; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any difference regarding those reasons?

A. I don't see any difference.

Q. You don't see them.

A. I don't.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May. That completes my cross-examination of this witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay. Do you have some questions?

MR. KAY: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Well, it's time for adjournment. It may be convenient afterwards.

MR. KAY: It's actually only one matter. It won't take very long at all.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. ²¹⁹⁰²

MR. KAY: It'll just package the witness in that way. Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. Witness, if I can ask you about the pre-conflict time in Zvornik. I'm looking at a statement of yours, and you describe in that statement as the situation being very tense and the city was divided into ethnic groups. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that because people were aware generally of the issue that Bosnia may be declared an independent state?

A. Mostly because of that reason, and also because of the very bad experiences from previous wars.

Q. In this statement as well, you describe in fact four or five soldiers being killed in a place called Sapna, within Zvornik municipality, on the day of the declaration of statehood. Is that right, the number, four or five soldiers?

A. That is the same information that I have, four to five soldiers.

Q. And which soldiers were they?

A. They were soldiers of the then-regular Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Thank you.

MR. KAY: No further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, can you deal with this in a few moments, or do you want longer?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do have about a dozen questions. Perhaps after the break, if that's convenient for the Court.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes. ²¹⁹⁰³

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so the record is clear, during the cross-examination and I believe the examination by the amici, a document referred to as a statement -- has been referred to. In case of this witness, there has been no formal statement. What has been referred to is an interview conducted pursuant to Rule 42 and 43; a copy of it was disclosed. So it's a videotaped and transcribed interview. Your Honour, if I may, there was, I believe, a mistake in the transcript from the 23rd of May regarding the spelling of a name, although technically not part of re-examination. I'd seek leave just to ask the witness to spell the name so that can be corrected.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. B-024, on the first day you testified, you were asked a question regarding who headed the special police unit that arrested Marko Pavlovic and others. And you told us the first name of the question was Milenko. Can I ask you to repeat the last name, the family name of that person. Were you unable to hear me?

JUDGE MAY: Let's try again.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Can you hear me now?

A. Yes. It's probably -- yes, I can hear you, yes. It's probably Milenko Mijic, who was chief of police at the ²¹⁹⁰⁴ beginning of the war in Zvornik.

Q. Can I ask you to spell his name.

THE INTERPRETER: M-i-j-i-c, says the interpreter.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] M-i-j-i-c, Mijic. Milenko is spelled, M-i-l-e-n-k-o.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Now, at the end of the cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic has asked you about the period of time during which Muslims had control of the town. And you have referred to that period of time as several days. Can I ask you to describe as -- with as much precision as you can that period of time.

A. Well, it can only be from the 5th of April, 1992 until the 8th of April, 1992.

Q. And I believe you said during that brief period of time that they assumed police functions and they also -- that there were no arrests during that period of time; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's what I said.

Q. Now, on the 6th of April, the police of Zvornik split in two. I believe you testified earlier that the Serb portion of the police separated and started a parallel police department elsewhere in Zvornik. Is that correct?

A. Yes, in accordance with Plan B we established a police station in the territory where there was a Serb majority population and that was in Karakaj.

Q. Now, during this three-day period when Muslims controlled the town ²¹⁹⁰⁵ of Zvornik, were there any summary executions of Serbs or any Serbs forcibly deported from the municipality of Zvornik, to your knowledge?

A. I don't have any such knowledge.

Q. And I believe you testified in response to a question that Mr. Milosevic put to you that the takeover of Zvornik, the retaking of Zvornik or placing it in Serb control, took approximately four hours; is that correct?

A. Yes. I meant that the military operation took from morning -- from the early morning hours, from 4.00 a.m., until 8.00 a.m. That is my estimate.

Q. Now, you testified in response to a question by Mr. Milosevic that paramilitaries slapped around members of the Crisis Staff. My question to you is: Were these local paramilitaries or were these the paramilitaries that you referred to as being from Serbia?

A. I've already said. It was Arkan and Pejic, people who were from Serbia.

Q. Now, with respect to the destruction of mosques, how many mosques all together were destroyed in Zvornik?

A. Well, I know that in Zvornik there were three mosques. And during 1992, they were destroyed. I don't know exactly about the surrounding area. In the surrounding area, there were many more, but I wouldn't know the exact number.

Q. Now, after the first mosque was destroyed, was there any discussion in the Crisis Staff or any attempt to guard the other remaining mosques as Mr. Milosevic has pointed out, the mosque in Mali Zvornik was ²¹⁹⁰⁶ guarded?

A. While I was a member of the Crisis Staff, not a single mosque was destroyed. And now, how the Crisis Staff reacted after that, that is something I really don't know about. But the evident result in the area was that they did not manage to protect a single one.

Q. Now, the accused asked you a question with respect to Marko Pavlovic and his relationship with people outside of Zvornik. I want to read you a portion of your answer and then ask you to explain it. You said - and I'm quoting - "I said that he had good relationships with the army, as to the politicians, I really don't know what his relationships were with them. But I do know that he did have relationships with Mr. Panic. I think he was at the time the head of the army of the Yugoslav People's Army."

Can I ask you to explain what you know about the relationship between Marko Pavlovic and Mr. Panic, who you believed was the head of the Yugoslav People's Army.

A. I don't know exactly what their interrelations were, but I know that Pavlovic said several times in front of the members of the Crisis Staff that he had Panic on line, so to speak, and that he could rely on him for logistics support. In all fairness, I was never present during such conversations, but he said this several times in front of the members of the Crisis Staff, that he could contact for the purposes of logistics support, even General Panic, who was then the chief of staff, the number one man in the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. The times that he made this reference, was it before the takeover, ²¹⁹⁰⁷ after the takeover, or both?

A. This was mentioned in the period between the 8th until the 20th of April, in that period.

Q. Now, the accused asked you about the relationship between the Zvornik Municipal Crisis Staff and the Regional Crisis Staff, then the main SDS board in Pale. And I believe you said that during a period of time the Municipal Crisis Staff did not have good communications with either the regional -- at the regional level or the republican level. Can I ask you to specify what period of time did that condition exist.

A. Well, some things are a bit confused here. The Crisis Staff, I think, existed from the 22nd of December, 1991 onwards; whereas, the Crisis Staff existed in a somewhat changed composition from when the conflict broke out. We had contacts with the Regional Crisis Staff in SAO Semberija and Majevica, but this region was established perhaps just before the war broke out, say, the beginning of April or end of March 1992, and until then in accordance with these instructions as concerns all information that is relevant to estimates of the security situation, it was our duty to inform the central Crisis Staff that was then at headquarters in Sarajevo, in the building where the Serb Democratic Party for Bosnia and Herzegovina was.

Q. Can I ask you: In a response to a question by the accused, you said at some point it appeared those communications were difficult or even interrupted. Can I ask you to specify during what period of time, if any, the communications with the republican-level staff was interrupted or difficult. ²¹⁹⁰⁸

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. The question is not appropriate, because the witness said that contacts were impeded with the Crisis Staff of the SAO Semberija and Majevica, not with the republican Crisis Staff.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that they were more difficult with the Regional Crisis Staff, but also with the republican Crisis Staff, because once the conflict broke out, part of the leadership remained in Sarajevo, such as Plavsic, Koljevic, et cetera. Others remained in Pale. Others went to Belgrade. So there was general disarray. And as far as I know, from when the conflict broke out in Zvornik until the 20th, while I was there contacts were indeed impeded with the republican Crisis Staff and the Regional Crisis Staff.

MR. GROOME:

Q. And was it during this period of impeded communication with the republican level Crisis Staff that Mrs. Plavsic made a personal visit to Zvornik to assess the situation?

A. Yes, that is correct. I said that Mrs. Plavsic came to Zvornik twice and that she was expressing interest in the political and security situation in Zvornik. And we did give her information. We told her whatever we could.

Q. Now, the accused asked several -- or a series of questions regarding where the Crisis Staff was able to obtain the money to pay the ²¹⁹⁰⁹ Territorial Defence forces as well as meet some other obligations in running this parallel government. In response to one of his questions, you made the following statement. You identified two sources of revenue; one was taxes. And the other one you said, "I don't want to go into detail where is this came from."

My question to you is: We've heard from a number of witnesses who have described signing their property over to municipalities, including the municipality of Zvornik. Was any of the personal or real property that Muslims signed over to the government of Zvornik, was any of that property converted to funds and thereby used by the temporary government of Zvornik?

A. Your Honour, I said that there were two sources of financing. One was the regular one, the way in which a budget is composed anyway. And the rest was additional taxation upon economic entities that were state owned. And then they were taxed according to their commercial power, so to speak. I did not say that I did not wish to discuss some sources of financing. I'm willing to discuss all sources of financing. As regards this Muslim property that was referred to here, I am not aware of this, and I claim with full responsibility that while I was a member of the Crisis Staff none of them signed over any of their property to the Crisis Staff and to the Municipality. But it is true that their immovables, like apartments, houses, cafes, are things that they could not take along with them. They stayed in Zvornik. And the provincial government and the Crisis Staff did dispose of this property. That is true. ²¹⁹¹⁰

Q. I want to now draw your attention to a series of questions the accused asked you regarding Prosecution Exhibit 451, tab 9. And he read you an order of the Crisis Staff regarding how Muslims should be buried and where they should be buried. And my question to you is: Would the burial of Muslims in mass graves in and around Zvornik, would that have been a violation of the order from the Crisis Staff that the accused read to you?

A. Yes. This is a document that is dated the 21st of April. And I can just read what this document says, because I did not take part in the drafting of this document and I am not aware of this. Obviously this is an order of the Crisis Staff as to how burials should be taking place. I mean, it cannot even be seen fully. It is only partly shown in this document. However, not going by this document would mean violating orders of the provisional government.

Q. You've testified extensively about the implementation of this Variant A and B plan. And my question to you is: Were all steps of the plan implemented to the best of the abilities of the Crisis Staff and the temporary government?

A. I think the answer is yes. Whatever could be done by the Crisis Staff is what the Crisis Staff did. You saw the plan. It is rather general. It depends on how people interpret it. But we as the Crisis Staff made an effort to implement it as much as possible.

Q. Now, the accused put to you the -- or read to you number 8 of -- of that plan. And I'll just read the portion that I'm interested in asking you to comment on. And the portion is this, and I quote: "In ^{21911 BLANK PAGE 21912} taking all these measure, attention should be paid to ensuring respect for the national and other rights of members of all nationalities." And it goes on to talk about engaging them in later government bodies. My question to you is: If the plan was implemented, and that number 8 is part of the plan, how was it possible then for us, or as you've described, for the pensions of non-Serbs to be withheld?

A. I've already said: There is one plan, and it is adopted at the level of the state at this moment and it applies to all. In the area concerned, the situation was somewhat different. Once the war started, once people started getting killed, et cetera, and the government became very rigorous, and finally the payment of pensions to persons who were not ethnic Serbs was forbidden.

Q. Now, the accused also pointed out to you that there was no specific reference to ethnic cleansing in the plan, I want to draw your attention to the second level, number 7, of Plan B, the plan that was implemented -- or you've testified was implemented in Zvornik. I want to read you the first sentence and ask you to explain your understanding of this instruction.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, while the witness is looking at that, I'm looking at the clock. We have another witness to fit in this morning, so perhaps you'd bear that in mind.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I just have two more questions after this.

Q. The first sentence reads: "The crisis headquarters is responsible for special forms of defence organisation in the areas where Serbs are not ²¹⁹¹³ in a majority." Can you please explain to the Chamber your understanding of what special forms of defence organisation were.

A. Well, I spoke about that a bit already. It means that where the Serbs are a minority, they should organise themselves and defend themselves. And if there is a Serb territory nearby, that they should establish territorial links with it.

Q. Now, with respect to Arkan appearing in -- in Zvornik, was the decision to bring Arkan to Zvornik a decision made in the Crisis Staff which you then implemented by going to Bijeljina, or was the decision taken elsewhere, which was implemented by the Crisis Staff on Zvornik?

A. No. We didn't even know. We simply asked for assistance then. And my friend at the time, an employee of the MUP of Serbia, told me that I should call Arkan and that according to plan he would come to Zvornik.

Q. So Arkan's appearance in Zvornik was after you made a request to the MUP of Serbia for assistance in Zvornik?

A. No. We were not in the MUP. We were at the assembly committee.

Q. But the person you conveyed your request to was a member of the MUP of Serbia.

A. Yes. It is through him that I received information that after Bijeljina, Arkan would come to Zvornik.

MR. GROOME: No further questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in relation to these questions, I would like to put a few questions.

JUDGE MAY: No. You've had your opportunity. You know the rules. Witness B-024, thank you for coming to the Tribunal. Thank you ²¹⁹¹⁴ for coming back to finish your evidence. It's now concluded, and you are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have to recall Witness B-1098; is that right?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. While the witness is being brought in, may we ask to go into closed session just to --

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: -- Say something?

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--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

the 10th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.