Milosevic Transcript 2003-06-10

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Monday, 10 June 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

JUDGE KWON: Before we begin, I'd like to apologise to all of the people here concerned. I was stuck in traffic due to road construction. I was late a little bit. I'm sorry about that.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We have Witness C-047 to conclude. According to my note, Mr. Milosevic, you have an hour and a quarter cross-examination.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-047, you showed us a certificate testifying to the fact that you were in the 4th Lika Brigade in the autumn and winter of 1991 to 1992; is that right?

A. I said that I was not there.

Q. And where -- how come we have this certificate?

A. The volunteers who were there brought me that certificate and I stated straight away that I was not actually there myself.

Q. I'm not saying what you said. This is what it says on the certificate.

A. No. That is indeed what it says on the certificate but I was not there. ²¹⁹⁴⁴

Q. Does that mean that this is a forgery, a forged certificate?

A. The certificate is original, but what I'm saying is that I wasn't there.

Q. Well, I don't understand this. You say that the certificate is the original one, but the fact that your name is written there, that is not correct; is that it?

A. I was not there. It does say so in the paper, in the document.

Q. Well, how come you weren't there and yet you're given orders and travel instructions to travel to Belgrade at the time you were not there, travel from the unit?

A. I was in Petrinje, in the -- I was not in the 4th Lika Brigade.

Q. You didn't travel to Belgrade? So as you weren't there, you couldn't have travelled from -- to Belgrade from the unit --

A. I'm telling you I was not there.

Q. And what about these certificates giving you travel authorisation from Belgrade from the 4th Lika Brigade? Is that something that has been invented, fabricated?

A. No, it is not.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think the witness should be given those certificate, because there are three different certificates and there may be a confusion now.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Which numbers, please? Which tab numbers.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The first tab number, that's the one from the ²¹⁹⁴⁵ Lika Brigade. That's number 12. And the other are number 13 and number 14.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have the documents.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean this 4th Lika one?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. And it says that you were there from 1991 to 1992.

A. That's what it says here. That's what is written. But I wasn't there. They sent me the certificate because I was the commander of the unit.

Q. And what about these travel authorisations? Did they send you that too?

A. This is an order for Petrinje. I was there.

Q. When was that?

A. Let me just take a look at the date. One was there on the 18th of March, 1994, and the other was the 5th of October, 1993, when the unit went to Petrinje, or rather --

Q. All right. The certificate that relates to 1991 and 1992, that is the period of time when the JNA was in the area while Yugoslavia still existed; is that right?

A. Yes, the JNA was there.

Q. Because this is the beginning of 1992.

A. Yes, the JNA did exist then.

Q. And it was a unit within the composition of the JNA; isn't that right?

A. Probably. ²¹⁹⁴⁶

Q. So you don't know any specific details about that.

A. Milan Stojanovic was at the head of this particular unit.

Q. All right. When you were asked during the examination-in-chief with respect to the records, you said that the records were kept by the Territorial Defence and the JNA, depending on which formation one belonged to; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And is it also right, what the Serbian Radical Party claims, that they recruited volunteers exclusively for the JNA and the Territorial Defence?

A. I didn't understand that question.

Q. I said is it true and correct what is otherwise claimed by the Serbian Radical Party, and that is that it recruited volunteers exclusively for the JNA and the Territorial Defence?

A. The Serbian Radical Party had its Chetnik Movement, and those units, when they went into the field, either belonged to the TO or the JNA.

Q. Does that mean then that the volunteers were recruited for the JNA and the TO?

A. It was the Serbian Chetnik Movement and could not work independently and autonomously on the ground.

Q. In tab 16 -- let's just clear this up a minute. In tab 16, you have an order which states towards the ends of the first paragraph, "Within the composition of the Territorial Defence." That's what it says here. Which means they were recruited to help make up the complement of ²¹⁹⁴⁷ the Territorial Defence. And Western Slavonia is mentioned here, the composition of the Territorial Defence; is that right?

A. I said that the Serbian Radical Party did have a Serbian Chetnik Movement which was organised as a military formation, which was either armed in Serbia, in Voj Potok [phoen], or elsewhere, when it went to the TO, to the place it was being assigned to, or to the JNA command.

JUDGE MAY: Well, if you can deal with tab -- this document, tab 16, which speaks of all volunteers sent to Western Slavonia be put under the command of a name as members of the Territorial Defence. What -- how do you interpret that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means every unit from Serbia, the Serbian Chetnik Movement, when it goes into the field, has to report to the TO or to JNA headquarters and command. And it says here that the commander was Noncic Radovan. He was a member of the Serbian Radical Party, the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and that he was going with the unit within the composition of the Territorial Defence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. No Chetnik Movement is mentioned here, only the Serbian Radical Party is.

A. The Serbian Chetnik Movement was not registered.

Q. Was it a secret organisation, then?

A. It was a public organisation.

Q. And yet it wasn't registered?

A. It wasn't registered, Mr. Milosevic. But they were issued weapons from the JNA, equipment, materiel, food was supplied, transport, et ²¹⁹⁴⁸ cetera.

Q. Do you want to say that when you were a JNA reservist you were armed like the rest of the reservists of the JNA?

A. No. But as Chetniks.

Q. Well, that is very difficult to believe. Do you have evidence and proof of this?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Well, you haven't presented any evidence to that effect here.

A. Well, I did mention an example in Bajina Basta where we were issued weapons, and a complete military set of equipment --

Q. As for Bajina Basta, what I understood was that they disarmed you and let you go.

A. That's not right. That's not correct.

Q. Well, these are facts that you spoke about yourself except that you're saying that you went of your own free will.

A. That's not true, and you can check it out. You can check out the reason for which I left the unit.

Q. All right. Now, how do you explain the second sentence in that same order which says, "volunteers who leave the unit of their own accord will be treated as fugitives of the Serbian Radical Party and the Serbian Radical Party will not protect them in any way"?

A. I assume that applies to individual, but I don't know of than example of that happening.

Q. Does that imply that certain individuals perform certain crimes and they were sort of renegades, fugitives from the regular units to which ²¹⁹⁴⁹ they had applied as volunteers and the Serbian Radical Party emphasises by this that it won't protect them because it does not consider that -- that to be lawful -- a lawful act? Is that right or not?

A. Well, I don't know that anybody was sent away from the battlefield of the Serbian -- by the Serbian Radical Party.

Q. Well, the fact that you don't know about it, does that mean that nobody was let go because he behaved -- they behaved in an undisciplined manner or committed an offence of any kind or was arrested for committing an offence of some kind?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. All right. Fine. In tab 9, it was said that fighters returning, that for lack of discipline special records were kept of those offences. So from those aspects, when you look at all those facts and data, as far as I can see, insistence was made upon the fact that the volunteers in the units in which they were registered had to behave properly in keeping with military rules and regulations. Is that correct?

A. That's how it should have been in units and the command of those units.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this, please: You mentioned a crime perpetrated by those volunteers of yours, and you also said that they killed three Croats. I'm sure you'll remember that.

A. My volunteers did not commit a single crime.

Q. No, they did not, did they? Well, whose volunteers were they, then, these men who perpetrated the crime that you're talking about?

A. Are you talk about Vukovar? Is that what you mean? ²¹⁹⁵⁰

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, we didn't get the question. Would you repeat the question, please, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You mentioned the fact that these volunteers - that's what you said - killed three Croats. That's what you said during your main testimony. Is that right?

A. Which volunteers, Mr. Milosevic, and where?

Q. Those members of yours.

A. Not mine.

Q. Who then?

JUDGE MAY: Can you refer, a bit more precisely, to the incident which you want the witness to deal with.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have made a note of that here.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. When --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wrote down --

JUDGE MAY: Let's try and find it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- What the witness was saying.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Were you witness to any crime - let me turn the question round and put it this way - did you witness any crime that was committed, any crime at all? Did you witness a crime at all?

A. I saw the one in Tordinci and I did in Vukovar too, the premises where they were killed. That's what I said. The Chetniks of Milan ²¹⁹⁵¹ Lancuzanin in a --

Q. What did you see there?

A. They said they had killed these three Croats and they took me to a room, a bathroom.

Q. They told you they had killed these three Croats?

A. Yes. And then I was there when a young girl was brought in, and they said in front of everybody that they would kill her, rape her, and she never returned in fact.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this: In view of the position you occupied, were these individuals people whom you knew?

A. I saw them for the first time then.

Q. Were they men from your party?

A. The Serbian Radical Party.

Q. You were able to identify them; right?

A. I could now. I couldn't at the time.

Q. All right. Now, in view of the job you did --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- Did you -- as to what you claim happened, did you table a report, write a report to anybody?

A. I spoke to Jerinkic and told him what had happened.

Q. I'm not asking you whether you talked about it to anybody, but did you file a report?

A. Not a written report.

Q. Well, do you know that you are duty-bound to compile a report even ²¹⁹⁵² when a travel accident occurs? And we're dealing with a killing here.

A. As I say, it was a killing on the battlefield in Croatia, and I reported this orally.

Q. So may we take it and note that you did not table a report to anybody that a killing had taken place?

A. I told Milan Jerinkic orally about that.

Q. What did you say?

A. I told him orally.

Q. I see, orally. So you didn't file a report of any kind.

A. No, not a written report.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me, who's Mirko Blagojevic?

A. Mirko Blagojevic is a Chetnik commander. I think he's a Vojvoda.

Q. You think?

A. I'm sure he's a Vojvoda.

Q. Was he from Bijeljina?

A. He should be. I think he is.

Q. All right. Now, you showed us a statement here by him dated September 1992. "In Northern Bosnia between the 24th to 25th of September where he is protesting against a unit of some kind which seems to have committed a killing, the killing of some Muslims. Is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to see the document, please?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Tab 11.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen this document.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²¹⁹⁵³

Q. So does that mean that he protected Muslims?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that in Bijeljina and in that area in general there were even units of the Army of Republika Srpska in which there was a large number of Muslims?

A. I said that I was not aware of him having protected Muslims. He disassociated himself from the crime that had been committed by the police, according to this document, that is.

Q. All right. Does that mean that they considered the killing of those Muslims a crime?

A. Of course, because they had not committed it. It was committed by the police of the MUP of Republika Srpska, that is.

Q. Do you know that it was precisely them who tried to protect all the Muslims in Bijeljina?

A. I'm not aware of that.

Q. You don't know anything about that?

A. I know what Arkan did, but I'm not aware of this protection.

Q. All right. You mentioned Vocin. Were you in Vocin?

A. No, but I did hear about the crime that was committed.

Q. And who was it that committed this crime?

A. As far as I know, members of the Serb Chetnik Movement.

Q. Oh, so they were the members of your movement?

A. Not of my movement.

Q. But you said that you joined that movement in order to topple Milosevic and the Communists. That that's what you said by way of an ²¹⁹⁵⁴ explanation in your statement.

A. Yes.

Q. So now, if you say that it was not your movement, make up your mind. Is it your movement or is it not your movement?

A. I am not aware of that unit. My unit did completely different things, and it was supposed to have completely different objectives. However, you know that in Serbia there were a great many Chetnik units.

Q. Well, I assume, since you rallied together to topple me, as you had put it, that you should know this better than me. So do you know, who did this? Did you identify these persons?

A. No. I just know that they are Chetniks from Serbia, not from Vojvodina.

Q. So you cannot identify these men but you know that they are members of this same movement that you belonged to?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Tell me, since I cannot link all of this up somehow, what was your role then? You were a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, you say. Then you say here that they committed crimes. But at the same time, you say that you have nothing to do with that. Now, tell me, who does have something to do with that?

A. I don't have anything to do with these crimes and I don't know whose -- under whose command they were, who their commander was.

Q. What was your role? Did you have a unit of the Serb Chetnik Movement under your command?

A. Yes, from my territory, if I can put it that way. From the area ²¹⁹⁵⁵ where I lived.

Q. All right. What was your role?

A. We also went to the frontline, but we did not commit crimes. We did not loot, nothing.

Q. So your unit did not commit crimes and these other units did commit crimes; is that right?

A. I'm not saying that all units did. I'm saying that individual units did.

Q. Did you see a single one of these crimes that was committed by any one of these units that you've referred to?

A. I said that I saw this in Vukovar, in Tordinci, I saw what happened there, and --

Q. So in two places. You personally saw a crime in two places.

A. In that way, yes. But as for killings during the war, I saw that.

Q. What was that?

A. I saw this after the Chetniks would go by.

Q. Oh, so you would see it afterwards. Did you personally see a killing being committed?

A. Yes, I did, in Njemci. But the man was already dead after I arrived.

Q. So you did not see the actual killing -- the man had already been dead?

A. They talked about it themselves.

Q. So you heard about this from the persons who were talking about it? ²¹⁹⁵⁶

A. I was there and I saw the corpse, the body of this man, if I can put it that way.

Q. Did you submit a report about that?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Why didn't you submit a report?

A. This was the war operation zone and the police from my area could not do anything there.

Q. It can provide information; right?

A. Information to who, Mr. Milosevic?

Q. To the police.

A. I don't know which police.

Q. Other police in Serbia. If you assumed that this was done by someone from Serbia, then it is logical that you should provide this information to the police in Serbia. That is anybody's civic duty, regardless of whether he or she is organised in a movement or not, like a movement that you just referred to.

A. I was not aware of any such information having existed.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: Repeat the question, if you would.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked, Mr. May, whether he reported to anyone on this what he had heard. And we established that he had heard it. But did he submit a report in writing? That was my question.

JUDGE MAY: He's answered that question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²¹⁹⁵⁷

Q. All right. Tell me, since you said several times that you had long war experience, where did you acquire this experience?

A. I was at quite a few of these positions, as they were called, Slavonia, Baranja, Bosnia.

Q. And now, describe this experience of yours to me, please, this long war experience that you had.

A. What do you want know describe?

Q. What was your position? How did you acquire this experience? You say that you took part in the Territorial Defence or in the JNA; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did you do? Were you on the defence or did you go out to kill?

A. Well, we were at positions, and at some places there were shooting and at some places there was only guarding of these positions.

Q. All right. Who were you guarding these positions from?

A. Well, we were at the separation line with the Croats or with the Muslims.

Q. You say on page 8 that the volunteers went through brief training in Subotica at the police training ground at Veliki Radinovac. This was at a state compound that was used by the SUP. According to the information that I have, this is incorrect.

A. But it is correct. I was with them personally.

Q. Do you know that there was no training going on whatsoever in Veliki Radinovac? ²¹⁹⁵⁸

A. What do you mean no training? What do you mean -- I was there.

Q. You were there yourself?

A. I was there myself with them.

Q. Who was there with you?

A. Volunteers.

Q. Since you say that this is a police training ground.

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of the police there?

A. I had agreed with Milan Jerinkic that I could go there for a while.

Q. So there were no police there?

A. No, there was no need for them to be there.

Q. And now you claim that you had agreed on this with Jerinkic, that you should go there; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. All right. Explain this to me, please: Let me just have a look. Let's see which tab this is. It looks like 21, tab 21. "Press conference, with weapons." Tab 21.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I am looking at this now. I'm looking at this facsimile of the newspapers. It says "Press conference under arms." And then there's also a headline saying "Timely action by the police," and it says that the press conference had barely ended, the press conference of the Serb Radical Party, when a statement arrived from the MUP that measures were ²¹⁹⁵⁹ taken to identify men in camouflage uniform and under arms. Such swift reaction is justified, because otherwise the public would certainly be disturbed because over the local radio a report had been broadcast from the press conference and immediately after that the statement of the MUP. On the basis of which one may conclude that the state organs are prepared in spite of the unstable situation in the country of the work they are in charge of."

So you had a press conference here, and the MUP said that measures were taken immediately to identify those who had this. And there was swift reaction to what had been going on. So how can you say that in agreement with the police you went there to some kind of training ground where there is no police whatsoever but they told you that you could go there and train? Is that right?

A. Well, that is right. We were there.

Q. You made all of this up.

A. No, I did not make it up. I was there myself.

Q. Tell me, do you know that this is on the outskirts of Subotica? This is a suburb with family homes, and it's populated by Hungarians predominantly. About 90 per cent of the population is Hungarian.

A. Mr. Milosevic, there is a training ground where we trained, and so did the special police forces. All of this is within Veliki Radinovac. I am very well aware of this terrain. A large amount of it is a forest.

Q. I assume that you know, but I have information here that says there is barracks there with the regular army. So did you train near the barracks? ²¹⁹⁶⁰

A. Mr. Milosevic, the barracks is on the E-5 road, on the main road. And this is a very big area, Veliki Radinovac. It's a large territory. There is a populated area and there is a forest there too. There is a vast forest.

Q. You went into the forest?

A. Yes.

Q. To train?

A. Correct.

Q. There were no police there?

A. Certainly wasn't.

Q. But you did ask the police for permission to go and train there.

A. Yes, because my unit, this special police unit, did train precisely in that area.

Q. Special police unit? You were talking about your group. You're now talking about a special police unit.

A. Correct. The members of the Serb Chetnik Movement were being trained there too.

Q. Are you talking about training of the special police unit or about your training?

A. I'm saying that it's one and the same area, one and the same training grounds.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was that?

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. We're sorry. We can't hear anything. ²¹⁹⁶¹

JUDGE MAY: Just -- will you both -- will you both pause so that we can get this microphone switched on.

Could you pause too, C-047? Now, I don't quite know the point of this questioning. The witness has said all along that it was members of his unit who were being trained and that the police gave him permission to do so. I think we've probably exhausted this matter. He's described where it was too. Yes, if you'd go on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That you had approval of the police is something that you are just claiming orally. Your don't really have any proof.

A. Mr. Milosevic, in appreciation of what Jerinkic did, Dusko Stipanovic and Radovan Knezevic - but then he returned this - in 1992 these men were giving thank-you certificates for good cooperation. This also had to do with the press conference that was held. So these thank-you certificates were issued in writing.

Q. So you got thank-you certificates for this press conference that the MUP reacted to?

A. Not me. It was this head of MUP precisely who got this thank-you certificate from the Serb Chetnik Movement, whereas Radovan Knezevic refused to accept it and he returned it.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 8, paragraph 7 you say that all Serbs at that time were sympathisers of the Serb Radical Party? ²¹⁹⁶² ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁹⁶³

A. I didn't mean it quite literally, but a large number at any rate.

Q. All right. If you say that there was a large number of sympathisers at the Serb Radical Party, how many votes did the Serb Radical Party win in the elections, considering this large number of sympathisers?

A. Enough.

Q. What was that?

A. Enough.

Q. Do you know anything about this?

A. I did not really follow elections. I wasn't interested in that.

Q. Do you know that these figures are in contrast to what you've been claiming all along?

A. I know that there were a great many members of the Serb Radical Party, members of the Serb Chetnik Movement, and sympathisers, a great many.

Q. That's why I asked you. How many votes did this mean for the Serb Radical Party in the elections when it had so many sympathisers?

A. I've already said, Mr. Milosevic, that I was not interested in politics. I am not interested in politics, especially not those elections.

Q. Can you enumerate all the places where you fought at the frontline? According to what I received here, you haven't been anywhere, and you're making all this up.

A. I did. And on the 27th of July, I was proclaimed a colonel.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question. ²¹⁹⁶⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojvoda Abramovic and another Vojvoda were at the Adult Education University in March --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

Q. You got the rank of colonel?

A. Yes, I did.

JUDGE MAY: We're having problems with the microphone. I'm just going to ask the registrar about it.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: Now, look, the problem is that you mustn't respond, Witness C-047, until you see his, the accused's, microphone off. Could you watch his microphone and it's only when it's off that you respond. You both speak the same language, and it's difficult for anyone to keep up if we don't keep these pauses.

Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁹⁶⁵

[redacted]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Oh, you were very generous with all these ranks amongst yourselves.

Tell me, on page 10, paragraph 4, you say that "Vojvoda Momcilo Djuic was the greatest donor you had and that he lived in Toronto and that he sent money from there." Is that right?

A. As far as I know, Vojvoda Seselj got a large amount of money from Djuic when he was proclaimed a Vojvoda.

Q. I am asking you whether this is what you stated. "He was the greatest donor. He lived in Toronto, Canada, and he sent money there. "

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know at all that Djuic did not live in Toronto, Canada. He lived in California, in the USA?

A. Possibly I made a mistake, but I know that he sent money.

Q. What is it that you know and what is it that you made a mistake about?

A. I know that when Vojvoda Seselj was proclaimed a Vojvoda, that Djuic gave him a large amount of money for the organisation of Serb ²¹⁹⁶⁶ Chetnik units for the struggle against communism. That was the objective.

Q. I'm asking you about the other thing. You claimed that he lived in Canada and that he sent money from there, from Toronto, and he never lived in Canada. He lived in America -- or rather, in the United States of America, in California at that.

A. Possibly I might have made a mistake.

Q. Is it possible that you might have made a mistake in terms of everything that you've been talking about?

A. No, that is not possible. I am giving arguments.

Q. All right. All right. Let's change the subject, then, please. Do you know who collected humanitarian aid during the war for the war-ravaged areas, food, medical supplies, clothing, blankets, and these supplies were accompanied by appropriate documents, stamped documents from the Red Cross in Subotica and so on and so forth? Do you know who was involved in that?

A. The Red Cross, as far as I know, sent aid through the SPS, whereas the radicals collected aid in a different manner.

Q. The certificate returned to those who were sending aid. Therefore, the Socialist Party of Serbia sent aid in food, medicine, clothing, blankets, et cetera, through the Red Cross of Subotica; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. On page 10, paragraph 3 you say that your financing went through the Radikal Komerc company; is that right?

A. Yes. ²¹⁹⁶⁷

Q. According to my information, this firm founded in 1992, Radikal Komerc was founded by some citizen and not by the party.

A. That is not true.

Q. I see. It is not true. Is the following true that I have as information? It's quite possible that my information may be wrong. Just say yes or no. Do you know that this company functioned for less than two months and that on its account there is no input or output of a single dinar and that the director of the company was a certain Nebojsa Ilic who was --

JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. One thing at a time. What is alleged, Witness C-047, is that, first of all, the company functioned for less than two months. Would you agree with that or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For how long it lasted, I don't know. But I know who founded and when it was founded. And the offices were in the premises of the Serbian Radical Party.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. According to information checked by my associates, there was not a single dinar paid in or withdrawn from those -- from that account during those two months. It was a firm that somebody wanted to start operating but it never succeeded. So there's not a single dinar being paid in or withdrawn from their account. Do you know Nebojsa Ilic?

A. I do know him. But you didn't mention Djordjija Lekic. He led that company. He was in charge.

Q. According to my information, the director was Nebojsa Ilic.

A. Possibly. But I know Djordjija Lekic. ²¹⁹⁶⁸

Q. But this Nebojsa Ilic was quickly eliminated.

A. No, I don't know that. He completed his education and then he went back to Sabac.

Q. And you explain here the reason for your conflict. Tell me, please, who is Vujic?

A. Bozidar Vujic.

Q. You had a conflict with Vujic?

A. Yes, I had some disagreements with him.

Q. And who is this Vujic?

A. What do you mean who? He's a man from Subotica, Bozidar Vujic. He worked in the 29th of November company in the warehouse. He was a founder of the Serbian Radical Party in Subotica. As far as I know, he is a member of parliament today.

Q. As he was a warehouse-keeper in the 29th of November Meat Processing Factory and he's the person who founded the Serbian Radical Party in Subotica?

A. Yes.

Q. From what it says on page 10, you had a dispute with him because you did not want to take part in killings of citizens and other crimes, but that it was customary for your volunteer units to kill and loot. Did Vujic ask you to kill and loot?

A. This is not worded properly. I mention again the volunteer unit from Subotica did not kill or loot.

Q. I asked you something else. Did Vujic asked you to kill and loot?

A. He asked us to go into the field. ²¹⁹⁶⁹

Q. Did he ask you to kill and loot?

A. Well, that was normal. If you go there, that was logical. What would you do? What else would you do?

Q. So it was logical for you when you go into the field to kill and loot over there. And you went there to kill and loot. But you didn't kill and loot. Is that what you're claiming?

A. No.

Q. What are you claiming?

JUDGE MAY: I think we've been over this. We've been over this many times. Let's go on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: Redacted. Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. I hope we are not in private session.

JUDGE MAY: No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁹⁷⁰

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this was in private session.

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁹⁷¹ Pages 21971-21975 - redacted - private session

²¹⁹⁷⁶

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You did speak about Hrtkovci then; right? And that a man was found killed in the field there; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you know that an investigation was conducted into that affair?

A. No, I don't know that. I'm not aware of that.

Q. And do you know that that was the only incident that took place throughout that region, and do you know that after that the police was sent into Hrtkovci - Hrtkovci is a very small place with no police force - but the police were sent there to protect the place from people that could inflict this kind of harm against somebody there?

A. That was the only killing, but it wasn't the only incident that took place.

Q. All right. The only incident. Now, do you know that an investigation was conducted and that immediately afterwards the police were sent there to stay permanently and prevent any future incidents from taking place?

A. I know that some policemen were sent there from Sremska Mitrovica, I believe. ²¹⁹⁷⁷

Q. Yes, that's right. To protect and safeguard those people there. And were there any incidents after that?

A. The young man who led the unit from Sremska Mitrovica, he himself beat those people and mistreated them. I'm sure you know that too.

Q. What did you say? Mistreated and beat the inhabitants?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his name? What was the name of this person who was sent there to protect and safeguard the population and then proceeded to beat and mistreat them?

A. I can't remember his name, but I will do so. And the young man was sent back and he's still working in the police force today, as far as I know.

Q. So are you really claiming that a policeman sent with a group of other policemen following an incident that took place to protect and safeguard that locality, to prevent any further violence, then engaged in the beating of the inhabitants? Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Q. All right. I won't belabour that point and comment further. I don't want to comment on things like that. It would be quite tasteless, out of place.

Tell me this now, please: You said that you saw Seselj before a very difficult operation in the area of the Perucac lake near the electric powerplant. What kind of operation was there on the territory of Serbia? Tell me that. What was this operation?

A. We've already discussed that point. It was the hydroelectric ²¹⁹⁷⁸ powerplant, Peruca, where I was with my unit. We were stationed in Skelani, and then we went to Serbia. From Serbia, we crossed the dam. And from the Serb side, there were tanks.

Q. Mr. C-047, is it true that you went there of your own free will and that the police disarmed you and threw you out of the area?

A. That is absolutely not true. Absolutely incorrect. If you have information of that kind, then you must have information from the lake, and you know what went on there.

Q. All right. Fine. Your answer suffices, as far as that matter is concerned.

Now, you also say that in 1995 you escaped to Arkan in Erdut from Subotica, that you fled from Subotica to Erdut. Is that right?

A. I didn't flee. I went.

Q. Well, I'm just recapitulating what you said. You said that you had a conflict with the police in Subotica, a clash. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Because of that clash with the police force, you fled across the border into Eastern Slavonia; right?

A. No. I went to Belgrade first.

Q. And then to Erdut.

A. To Belgrade, to Ljutice Bogdana 1 Street and then we went on in a car.

Q. And you then went to Erdut.

A. Yes.

Q. And what about Arkan's Volunteer Guards? Were they a component ²¹⁹⁷⁹ part of the Serbian Army of Krajina at that time? That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, I assume it was.

Q. So you joined up. You joined the unit, which was under the composition of the Serbian Army of Krajina.

A. Yes, I did go there. That's quite true.

Q. And you yourself decided to leave Subotica because you clashed with the police there?

A. Well, why should I ask anybody whether I should leave town or not? It's up to me. It depends on what I decide.

Q. Well, that's what I say. It's up to you, your right to move around, and I assume that refers to any other citizen and inhabitant that decides to leave and become a volunteer?

A. Yes, it is every citizen's right to leave.

Q. Do you know how many thousands of Muslims left Sandzak like you did, yourself, to fight on the side of Alija Izetbegovic, for example?

A. Yes, I do know. Quite a lot of people.

Q. Were they perhaps sent by our police or government or something like that?

A. I really can't say. I don't want to delve into those matters.

Q. All right. Fine. Tell me this, please: You say that it was quite by chance, so not in any combat operation, that you were wounded in November 1995.

A. It was a small injury.

Q. All right, a small injury. But you went to hospital.

A. Yes, if you're talking about 1995. ²¹⁹⁸⁰

Q. So you were wounded in November 1995?

A. No. This was just an injury. I twisted my foot.

Q. But you were in hospital in November 1995, were you?

A. Yes, in Vukovar to begin with and then in Subotica after that.

Q. How long did you stay in hospital?

A. I didn't. They just put a plaster cast on my leg.

Q. All right. Fine. I see. And then they went to visit you, did they?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And then they told you that they were to go to Bosnia, to Sanski Most; right?

A. Yes, right. Correct.

Q. That's what they told you in November 1995.

A. The officer whose nickname was Niski, he told me that. He was an officer of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and his nickname was Niski. He was the one who told me that. He said that they were to go to Bosnia.

Q. I see, to Bosnia. And then he mentioned Sanski Most, did he?

A. I think he did, yes. I think he mentioned Sanski Most.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that in November 1995 the Dayton Agreement was signed, that the war ceased on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. I know that it was signed. Now, whether war operations ceased, I really can't say.

Q. Do you know of any war operations after November 1995, then? ²¹⁹⁸¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²¹⁹⁸²

A. I wasn't there.

Q. All right, fine.

A. But later on I heard that a unit of the Serbian Guards were in fact in Sanski Most in 1995.

Q. Well, to be specific, you said you were there in November 1995 and that they told you that they were to go to Sanski Most and Bosnia in the coming period and it was at that time that the peace agreements were signed and that all operations ceased in the area. So that was your fabrication, wasn't it?

A. No. The unit withdrew in 1996, the Army of Yugoslavia, back to the barracks as far as I know.

Q. All right. Now, linked to that, and immediately following that, you said that in Vukovar you saw one particular JNA unit. When did you see a JNA unit in Vukovar at all?

A. A JNA unit?

Q. Yes.

A. I said I saw the military police of the Kragujevac Corps in Leva Supoderica in 1991.

Q. All right, in 1991. So what you want to say is when the JNA was throughout the territory of Yugoslavia, stationed, there, and you saw one particular unit in Vukovar.

A. I just named one place, one location, and said there were there. Whereas, in Partizanska Street, I think it was the command and headquarters of the Novi Sad Corps that was stationed there.

Q. Let's clear this point up. You saw the JNA in 1991; is that ²¹⁹⁸³ right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, as this was immediate -- came immediately after your story about 1995, I linked this up to the year 1995 when it was impossible for you to see the JNA. Now, we've clarified this. You saw the JNA, in fact, in 1991; is that right?

A. Yes, in 1991.

Q. Thank you. That's a very useful explanation you've just given us. And what you indicated to us on the videotape, which does not refer actually to what you yourself saw but is an illustration of where Arkan, Hadic are in Vukovar in November 1991; that's it, isn't it?

A. Yes, it's the liberation of Vukovar -- or rather, after the fall of Vukovar. That's when that was taken, that footage.

Q. It wasn't footage of an event you witnessed. All you did was to identify the two men; right?

A. I was in Vukovar after that, afterwards.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just take a moment to consult my notes?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, you mention Ovcara, on page 11, paragraph 6 of your statement. Is it true that you do not have any knowledge about the events that took place in Vukovar at the -- after the factory farm?

A. I stated whom I heard this from, who told me about what happened.

Q. So you spoke about what was rumoured; is that it?

A. I give the name of the man who was very close to Milan Lancuzanin, ²¹⁹⁸⁴ Kameni, the Chetnik commander. And he told me. But I wasn't there, so I can't say myself.

Q. So you have no personal knowledge.

A. No.

Q. All you know is what you heard about.

A. Right. Correct.

Q. All right. Now, let me ask you this: Did you ever hear that the JNA had anything to do with Ovcara and the events at Ovcara?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you say?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Which JNA unit had anything to do with the events in Ovcara?

A. The Belgrade Guards unit.

Q. And you claim that they were present in Ovcara when the crime took place?

A. To the best of my information, both of them were there, the army and paramilitary, if you like to put it that way.

Q. Did that same man tell you that, the man that told you about who the perpetrators were?

A. What do you mean? What are you referring to?

Q. The man who rallied these people up in Ovcara?

A. I know from the media that it was the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. Oh, I see. You've heard this from the media. That's how you come to know it. That's sufficient. Fine. That's enough for me. The fact that you know this from the media is not the subject of testimony here. ²¹⁹⁸⁵

JUDGE MAY: You have five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. Fine. I'm just trying to use my time as best as possible and to sort out the questions and select the ones I wish to ask, because I have a lot of material here. All sorts of untruths have been uttered here.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that in Hrtkovci there was a unit from the composition of these special police units.

A. You said that yourself a moment ago as well.

Q. Was the police there?

A. As far as I know, yes, it was.

Q. All right, then. Of course it was there. Now, on page 12, paragraph 6, you state that it was under the command of Pera Skokandic; is that right?

A. I know that the unit was from Sremska Mitrovica and that it was withdrawn. I think that this was replaced by the Novi Sad unit with this man at its head.

THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the microphone was off.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was the commander of the unit.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. And were they there to protect and safeguard the people from anything happening to them, to prevent an incident breaking out? Because you just mention this one man.

A. I know what the police ought to have been doing. ²¹⁹⁸⁶

Q. Yes. But their assignment, did they carry it out or not? That's what I'm asking you now.

A. I don't think they did it to the best of their ability, as it should have been carried out.

Q. Well, is this the same man, Skokandic, who was the deputy of the president of the reformist party in Vojvodina?

A. Yes.

Q. So he mistreated the citizens of Hrtkovci; is that right?

A. Not him. I mentioned the Sremska Mitrovica unit that was replaced.

Q. What I'm asking you now, you say that there were some people there from Novi Sad. Were they safeguarding and protecting the people?

A. Yes, the Novi Sad unit was protecting these locals of Hrtkovci. The few men that stayed on, I assume that they protected the people.

Q. All right. The few of them who remained, as you put it. Now, you say that in Subotica you saw Serb -- houses of non-Serbs marked with a cross of some kind, and you say this on page 13, paragraph 3. You mention that.

A. Yes. It says in Hrtkovci, not Subotica.

Q. Hrtkovci.

A. I refer to Hrtkovci in this paragraph.

Q. Well, is the population mostly non-Serb?

A. Where?

Q. Well, in Hrtkovci, were the houses marked in this way?

A. They weren't marked like that, but there were other incidents. ²¹⁹⁸⁷

Q. What incidents? You say that the cathedral in Subotica was blown up.

A. The doors to the cathedral.

Q. In your statement, you say that the cathedral was bombed and blown up.

A. Well, the doors are a part of the cathedral.

Q. Well, some person motivated by political motives placed an explosive device at the door. Is there a difference between that and blowing up the cathedral?

A. It's all the same thing, because the doors are part of the building. They were enormous, large wooden heavy doors.

Q. All right. Now, do you know that an investigation was conducted with respect to this offence and that criminal proceedings were launched against the perpetrators of that crime and that they were condemned for this act and that they weren't members of the Serbian Radical Party at all, by the way?

A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that.

Q. So actually, you don't know anything about the whole thing.

A. No, I don't. But I think I know who the perpetrators were. And when the bomb was planted on -- at the school in Velegija Street. I know about that, and who planted the bomb there.

Q. My question to you was: Do you know that an investigation was conducted and that the perpetrators were brought to justice, that they were found guilty of the offence?

A. No, I don't know about that. ²¹⁹⁸⁸

Q. And you don't know that they weren't even members of the Serbian Radical Party?

A. No, I don't.

JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question now.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do have a few other matters to ask with respect to these alleged explosions in Subotica.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. If a bomb wasn't thrown at any Hungarian school but the Svetozar Markovic school, which was a general school regardless of ethnic affiliation.

A. The school was in Velegija Street.

Q. And do you know that a group of young people, young men, among whom was this Bojanic whom you accuse, was hit by a shrapnel in the school -- on the school premises when somebody threw a bomb?

A. Well, I wasn't somebody. It was him. He threw the bomb.

Q. And do you know that the plaque bearing the name of the poet Geza Kostolany [phoen], a Hungarian poet, in fact, a local of those regions, which was placed on the wall of the school building, was not damaged at all?

A. No, it wasn't, because the bomb wasn't placed there.

Q. But you said that they planted a bomb to blow up the plaque with this poet's name on it, and it wasn't damaged at all.

A. I didn't say it was.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. The time is now up. Mr. Tapuskovic, have you questions for this witness? ²¹⁹⁸⁹

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. After the adjournment. We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to pay attention to tab 21, 458.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly like to ask for private session. Briefly, please.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²¹⁹⁹⁰ Page 21990 - redacted - private session

²¹⁹⁹¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So, Witness, if you did the work you did, like many other types of work that I know - and this pertained to them too - were you able to be in this particular line of work without being a member of the Communist Party at the same time?

A. I had to be a member of the Communist Party.

Q. So you were a member of the Communist Party?

A. Yes. ²¹⁹⁹²

Q. And you joined the Radical Party, as you put it, precisely because you wanted to do away with the members of the Communist Party that were supposed to be overthrown.

A. Yes. I lived from this work, and I was a member of the Communist Party for five years only.

Q. And after that you decided to do what you decided to do, to struggle against this same Communist Party that practically supported you and on whose income you lived.

A. Any political orientation was different, but this was a job I did and that I lived on.

Q. At any rate, in respect to the war, when war was mentioned in 1991, it was said that the monarchists had to do away with the communists.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber a few things that have to do with Kosovo. I'm now going to mention the work that you did. In your statement, in the statement you gave here, and in the statement that you gave to the investigators, I see that due to your work, you were in Kosovo for a rather long period of time, between 1985 and 1989, and then in 1988 too, and after 1990; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You said here: "I remember that in 1988 there was a big clash in Priluzje where several Kosovo Albanian demonstrators and two to three Serbian policemen got killed." So is it correct that in these clashes in 1988 three Serb policemen were killed?

A. I think so. I don't know whether it was two or three, though. ²¹⁹⁹³

Q. All right. Is it also correct that in this period of time, before 1989, there were quite a few other such incidents?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you give us at least an approximation of the number of policemen who were victims in the clashes between the police and the demonstrators between 1985 and 1989? Can you give us an approximation?

A. I know that there were quite a few, but I don't actually know the number of policemen killed.

Q. At any rate, these were actions aimed against the -- terrorist attacks launched against the police and the citizenry, in that period of time, between 1985 and 1990?

A. Yes.

Q. Did this happen after 1990 as well?

A. Of course.

Q. Precisely due to these terrorist actions, were Serbs migrating from these areas? Were they leaving Kosovo under pressure between 1985 and 1990 and after 1990?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that in these periods of time, between 1985 and 1990 and after 1990, there was a considerable number of emigres from Albania who came from Albania to Serbia and settled there, although they were not citizens of that country?

A. I know that.

Q. Was that a considerable number?

A. Yes. ²¹⁹⁹⁴

Q. In the documents of your party, the number mentioned is 300.000 persons.

A. I don't know the exact number, but I know that such persons were there.

Q. All right. Now I would like us to have a look at something together, these documents, that is. And could you please explain to the Trial Chamber some things in relation to this document. This document was shown to you by the Prosecutor. This is Exhibit 458, tab 2. And it has to do with the programme declaration of the Serb Radical Party for 1991. Would you please have a look at this. The Prosecutor showed you paragraph 2, paragraph 3, I think paragraph 1 too. But please look at this first sentence. It is an introduction to the entire document. It says: "On the basis of the programme and the statute adopted at the founding assembly in Kragujevac on the 23rd of February, 1991"; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then further on towards the end: "The Serb Radical Party" - this is what it says here - "as it acts as an eminently democratic organisation under the conditions of a multi-party system and having opted for peaceful methods only, as regards political struggle, proclaims its political objectives." This was in February 1991. So at that moment was any reference made to the following, that these objectives should be attained by peaceful means; yes or no?

A. I don't think so. This is just on paper. But it was quite different. ²¹⁹⁹⁵

Q. So what, communists and monarchists were supposed to have a showdown already then?

A. Chetnik units were being established throughout Yugoslavia.

Q. For the monarchists to settle accounts with the communists?

A. Yes.

Q. In all of Yugoslavia?

A. Serbia and Montenegro.

Q. Thank you. Now, I would be interested in the following, Article 25. The Prosecutor showed you this in the programme of the Serb Radical Party, that expulsions should take place straight away, that is, the beginning of 1991. All 360.000 Albanian emigres. So these were only people who were staying in Serbia. That is what was done by all civilised countries in the world when there are no proper conditions for this, that emigres who do not have the citizenship of the country concerned should be expelled from the country where they live.

A. I am not a politician, but I think Vojislav Seselj wrote this.

Q. But these are the people who emigrated from Albania, came to Yugoslavia, stayed there for decades, for years, without having citizenship.

A. There was a considerable number of them. I don't know.

Q. Thank you. Now I would like to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to tab 3. And that is the statute of the Serb Radical Party. You know that the first statute was adopted in March 1991; is that right?

A. Yes. ²¹⁹⁹⁶

Q. And this is an amendment that was adopted on the 30th of January, 1994; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please look at Article 87. That's the last article. There's a translation of this too. This was adopted by the Third Congress of the Serb Radical Party which was held in Belgrade on the 30th of January, 1994; is that right?

A. Yes, that's when the Serb Radical Party was registered.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Honourable Judges please focus on this, on page -- on the last page of the Serb version of this statute, because it says "Agreement on cooperation," and that part had not been translated. But it is written in a language that the witness knows very well.

I have a photocopy of this. Could the witness please look at this document. It is in tab 3. And I would like to ask the witness something in this connection.

Q. Witness, you can see here -- you can see here that the photograph is missing. You can't see it. But it says "Doctors on the move. Dr. Vojislav Seselj and Dr. Milan Babic." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then underneath that -- well, the statute was changed on the 30th of January, 1994. And then it says here, "In Belgrade, on the 2nd of February, a joint press conference was held of Dr. Milan Babic and Dr. Vojislav Seselj. It was publicly stated that the two most significant parties in the territory of Srpska Krajina made an agreement in order to ²¹⁹⁹⁷ promote their joint political objectives that promote the priority state interests of the Serb people in the Republika Srpska, the Republika Srpska Krajina, in order to have stable conditions for the operation of its government authorities." That is what Babic stated after the agreement was signed. Do you know about that?

A. I know about that. Although, I was not doing this in 1994.

Q. And do you know that after they signed this agreement in 1994, Seselj said - and I read - "Dr. Seselj said that for the continuation of the coalition was of decisive importance was that the interests of the SRS and the SDS of Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina coincided, that is to say, that all the Serb territories should become part of one state." Do you know about that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Was this an agreement between Babic and Seselj?

A. Yes.

Q. So you know about that. And after that, what happened was that the Serb Radical Party joined the government in the territory of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Now, I'll put three tabs together. I would just like to read part of tab 11. And this same question pertains to what it says in tab 16 and in tab 18. However, I would kindly like to ask the Trial Chamber to look at tab 11, the last sentence.

You have stated your views with regard to this document, but this is what the last sentence says. It was signed by Vojvoda ²¹⁹⁹⁸ Mirko Blagojevic. It says: "The Serb Chetniks will truly and honourably fight for the freedom of Republika Srpska and its international affirmation within the Army of Republika Srpska." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So it is said within the Army of Republika Srpska. And these other two documents do not make any reference to the Yugoslav People's Army. Quite explicitly, in none of these documents is there any mention of the Yugoslav People's Army or of the Army of Yugoslavia.

A. No, there is no mention sir, but they were present at the frontline.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will finish very fast. I have nothing else in this connection.

Now I need tab 15. In tab 15 - and the Prosecution did not show the witness tab 15 - but this is the third document in this tab. I would just like to show the witness what it says here. You said, Witness, what happened in Hrtkovci in 1992; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. I don't want to take you back to that, but tell me first: How many refugees during 1991 came from areas outside Serbia, from Bosnia, Slavonia, to Serbia, during 1991, primarily in Vojvodina where you live. Was it a considerable number?

A. It was a considerable number.

Q. Can you give us an approximate figure?

A. I cannot give you a figure. ²¹⁹⁹⁹

Q. This is what it says on the document: "On the 11th of and 12th -- on the 11th of December, 1991, a column of refugees on tractors moved through Western Slavonia from Okucani towards Banja Luka. The refugees are on the tractors. Down the entire frontline which was held by the Banja Luka Corps the situation was very difficult." Are you aware of such information about refugees moving in this way?

A. Yes. And I am aware of this document.

Q. Oh, you are aware of this document too?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Let me ask you just one more thing: In answer to a question from the Prosecutor, you spoke about mosques destroyed. I am familiar with that, and I'm sure there is data about this. But could you tell me: In addition to Catholic churches, Roman Catholic churches and mosques, do you know at all how many churches were destroyed in the areas of Croatia, Krajina, Slavonia, Bosnia? Do you know whether any churches were destroyed and how many?

A. I think I didn't mention mosques, but I do know that many churches were destroyed.

Q. How many were destroyed?

A. Very few remained standing.

Q. Thank you very much.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, if you could help me with this. It's about the agreement on cooperation between Mr. Seselj and Milan Babic. Does it appear at the last page of the statute on the Serbian Radical Party? Because I didn't bring my B/C/S version of that. Is it a kind of ²²⁰⁰⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²²⁰⁰¹ Official Gazette?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Kwon, the statute was published in the only journal that existed over there, and that was called Greater Serbia, Velika Serbia. And it was published by editors who represented the Radical Party. And in that journal, Velika Serbia, this statute was published. It may have been published somewhere else. And you have the translation of that statute up to Article 87. And in that article, it says that "The statute was adopted on the 30th of January, 1994," and already on the 2nd of February this agreement was reached between Babic and Seselj. After the peace negotiations, after the Vance-Owen Plan, that is, three years after the peace talks had ended.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I got it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. You did in fact refer to tab 15 I see from my notes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I did. I did, Your Honour. And I have a few questions that -- a few clarification.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the first one is actually in -- I would like to have closed session. The rest one in -- private session right now.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²²⁰⁰²

[redacted]

[Open session] ²²⁰⁰³

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have actually discussed here during the cross-examination of both Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Tapuskovic, we had discussed the statement that the witness did. I suggest that we exhibit it or at least mark it for identification.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have a vast amount of paper, and the fewer statements we can have exhibited the better. Is there any particular reason why we need this one?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, I only thought because we referred so often and you may want to check.

No, okay.

Q. Witness, Mr. Milosevic put to you that Seselj was imprisoned in autumn 1990 and therefore you could not have met him, as you have explained. And you would like to put to you, therefore, an article. And we have prepared the article. It's an article called "Duke Seselj free again." Could that be provided.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in the English translation, there is no date.

Q. But, witness, if you look at the Serbian version, is that an article of the 16th of November, 1990? And can you tell us which newspaper it is?

A. Yes. I see that it is the Borba newspaper, a newspaper published in Belgrade. And the date is the 16th of November, 1990.

Q. And in this first paragraph, I quote now, it says: "After 26 days spent in prison, Duke Dr. Vojislav Seselj, independent presidential ²²⁰⁰⁴ candidate, is free again on probation." And my question to you is: Did you meet him after the 16th of November or was it rather in September or October? Do you recall that?

A. I think it was before he went to prison.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this exhibited.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 458, tab 26.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. In relation to the SRS party, Mr. Milosevic put to you that it did not exist in 1990 and also not in the beginning of 1991. And you said as an answer to this, "It existed, but under a different name." And I would like now to put again to you the statute of the Serbian Radical Party of 1994 that we had just discussed -- that you had just discussed with Mr. Tapuskovic. And I would like you to look at Article 5, the first two paragraphs. It says here: "The party is the legal successor of the Serbian Freedom Movement and the Serbian Chetnik Movement. The initiative to form the Serbian Freedom Movement came on 6th of January, 1990 in Belgrade from a group of citizens who signed the founding manifesto." Hearing this name, Serbian Freedom Movement, is that a name you are familiar with?

A. Yes. That is what I had in mind when I was referring to this other name -- or rather, the first name of the Serbian Radical Party. From this Serbian Freedom Movement, the Serbian Radical Party developed. And the Serbian Chetnik Movement existed.

Q. In relation to the statute of the SRS party, Mr. Milosevic also ²²⁰⁰⁵ put to you that it didn't have a structure with provinces. And I would like you -- to refer you now to paragraph -- to Article 58 of that same statute. And it says here: "The parties organised in all Serbian lands, regions, municipalities, and populated areas as well as abroad." And in Article 62, it also speaks about "regional boards are formed by special decisions of the administration." Do you recall that?

A. Yes, I am aware of that. That is how we formed it in Subotica.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honour, I would like to put to you --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the question is inappropriate because I didn't claim that they didn't have their branches in various areas. But what I claimed was that no presidency of the Serbian Radical Party or Vojvodina existed. As the witness indicated in the diagram in tab 4, where it says "The presidency of the Serbian Radical Party of Vojvodina, Maja Gojkovic, president of the presidency."

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that is what I was claiming.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can't make another speech now. Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In this same context, I would like to have displayed to the witness an article related to the person Mirko Blagojevic, the Vojvoda that you have mentioned and that Mr. Milosevic also had mentioned. And it is an article in Oslobodjenje, ²²⁰⁰⁶ 5th of March, 1991, referring to Mirko Blagojevic.

Q. And you see, actually, in the first paragraph how he said, "Aside from Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian Radical Party, and Mirko Blagojevic, president of the regional board of this party for north-eastern Bosnia. Do you recall that you had these structures and presidents of these regional structures?

A. Yes, there were, quite certainly.

Q. In the examination-in-chief, you had mentioned that there was a VJ unit with the name Kobras in Vukovar which you saw when you were in the hospital there. With Mr. Milosevic, you discussed the JNA units present in Vukovar, but you spoke only about the year 1991. And my question to you is: When did you see the members of the Kobra unit? Which year?

A. When I was hurt in the Guards. That would be 1995.

Q. Mr. Tapuskovic put to you the point that you left Zvornik. And I was a little bit puzzled about this. Did you ever fight in Zvornik, or is that just a misunderstanding?

A. It's a misunderstanding. I was at the Bajina Basta Perucac hydro powerplant. And I didn't go to Zvornik. Units of the Army of Yugoslavia were there.

Q. And my last question relates to the situation in Kosovo in the year 1988. And Mr. Tapuskovic put to you that the police was engaged there in relation to terrorist activities. And my question to you is: What exactly did you do? What did you -- what were you against? What were you doing?

A. As a member of the police force, I had to go there. I spent there ²²⁰⁰⁷ a month and a half. There were demonstrations by the Albanians, the Siptars, at the crossroads between Titova Mitrovica and Pristina Roads. The police arrived with TABs, armoured vehicles, helicopters. There were heavy machine-guns on these TABs. And this was in Priluzje. So I had to go there on assignment. I received such orders.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes my questions.

JUDGE MAY: Witness C-047, that concludes your evidence. You are now free to go. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give your evidence. I'm sorry that you've been detained here so long to give it and had to come back. Thank you.

If you'd just wait while the blinds are put down.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the next witness, may I raise an administrative matter with the Prosecution. My question is whether the Prosecution would be able to produce a detailed index of the Prosecution's exhibit produced to the Court so far, including the -- all the tabs of each binder so that we can make an electronic search. So if you could pass on my words to Mr. Nice and --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. That shouldn't be a problem.

JUDGE KWON: And update them from time to time. Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And may I now also mention that we have as the next witness the Witness C-017. He had been granted protective measures of pseudonym and ²²⁰⁰⁸ image distortion.

MR. KAY: If I can just raise a matter, Your Honours? I've just been looking at the exhibits for C-017. I notice at tab 9 that there's an entire statement from this witness included within the exhibit bundle.

JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll have to -- we'll have to see about the admissibility of that.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: As to why it should be. It's not normally the practise, of course, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, to exhibit the witness's statement unless there's some particular reason for it.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And it's only a proposal. The -- the problem that arose was during the preparation of the testimony, the witness read his past statement and found a lot of inaccuracies. And he mentioned which it was and what should be the right wording. And that's actually the -- this declaration that he made with our help, of course; we typed it up. And we can see whether it's necessary to exhibit it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll see whether that's necessary or not. We've got it at the moment.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-017

[Witness answered through interpreter] ²²⁰⁰⁹

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat now.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, could we have the first about 10 to 15 minutes in private session. And as soon as we are in private session, I would explain why.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Private session]

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²²⁰¹⁵

[redacted]

[Open session] ²²⁰¹⁶

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's actually from the atlas, but we have highlighted together with the help of the witness certain areas that the witness will refer to during his testimony. And we do not need to explain any details right now. It's just that the witness should have it in front of him if he wants to show something.

Q. The only thing you should tell us: Buna, what was it and where was it situated?

A. It's 12 kilometres from Mostar, and it's marked here with a "D."

Q. Yes. Before the war, what kind of a place was it?

A. Buna is a tourist place, generally speaking. And the camp was a tourist camp, in fact, or a camp for foreign citizens, foreigners.

Q. And during the war, what was it, during the time you were there?

A. My first encounter with the camp during the war was when it was a base for those people who came in.

Q. Which -- a base for which troops? Who was there?

A. What I saw when I arrived was a group of criminals wearing uniforms. And there were all kinds, in fact. There were Seselj's men, Seselj Chetniks, the White Eagles, the Red Berets, and so on.

Q. Did you, with some technical help from the Prosecutor's Office, prepare a sketch of the layout of the camp Buna?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And can we now have tab 1 on Sanction. Your Honours, we'll --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honours, we'll go now through the tabs and would need a -- an exhibit number. ²²⁰¹⁷

JUDGE MAY: An exhibit number, yes.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 460.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Tab 1, is that the layout of the camp?

A. Yes.

Q. Where would the -- these uniformed people that you mentioned, where would they sleep? Where would they be housed?

A. They slept in the camp.

Q. But where there? I mean, you have indicated buildings. Would they sleep in the bungalows?

A. Yes, because the camp consisted of bungalows and an area for tents. And when I arrived, they were actually in the bungalows, but some of them were also in the hotel at the Buna.

Q. And was there a kind of an administration in the camp, where the commanders would sit? Where would they be?

A. Yes, there was. Mirko Simic was also in the camp, and at that time he was one of the main people or number-one man for Herzegovina for the SDS.

Q. Where would Mr. Simic be in the camp? Did he have an office there?

A. Yes, he did. He occupied one of the bungalows, but I really can't remember which.

Q. And Mr. Simic, how did you get to know him? Did you have dealings with him when you were in the camp? Did you see him?

A. I did see him around, but I had absolutely no idea who he was ²²⁰¹⁸ until I was told.

Q. And you said that he was -- he was a leading -- a leading figure in the SDS. How would you know that?

A. Well, when I arrived - I have to say this again - I didn't know who he was at all. But during one of the operations after Mostar, which they referred to as cleansing, I learnt that as that man had issued orders for -- to the local chief of the SDS.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we need to go briefly into private session to discuss a point.

[Private session]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. While you were in this position, did you observe the killing of the Croat, Pavo Gagro?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you explain to us what you saw.

[redacted]

Q. And when you say three or four of them, whom do you mean?

A. I mean the men wearing those uniforms; that is to say, Seselj's Chetniks.

Q. And what else happened to Gagro? You say they were kicking him.

A. They kept kicking Gagro from his house to the hotel, which is a ²²⁰²³ little less than 1 kilometre away, and he died as a result. He died during the kicking.

Q. You mentioned the Seselj Chetniks. Was there any sort of a commander among them?

A. Yes, there was. However, at that point in time, I had no idea who they were or who their commander was. I learnt all that later on.

Q. And who was their commander? What did you learn later on?

A. When this was happening, I saw a man leave Pavo Gagro's house with a bag, and later on I learnt that his name was Svabo. I saw him then and never again. And later on I learnt that he was the man who was in command there.

Q. You said they were Seselj's Chetniks. How did you know that? What did they look like and how could you identify them later on, later on as Seselj's Chetniks?

A. Well, as I said, when I arrived I had no idea who they were. However, later on during the time I spent in the camp, I saw their IDs and I learnt from the stories they told that they were in fact Seselj's volunteers or Chetniks, whatever you like to call them.

Q. I would like to show now on the -- on the screen a few patches. And they're actually from Exhibit 349, the binder with all the patches. And I have here the first patch that I would like to show you. It's tab 12.

You see here a patch with a wolf. What -- what kind of a patch -- is that patch familiar to you, and who was having such a patch?

A. I saw this patch for the first time when I arrived at the camp at ²²⁰²⁴ Buna. And this is the insignia worn by the members of the Red Berets, with a brown wolf on it.

Q. And now tab 11. Did you see people with such a patch?

A. Once again, I first saw it at the Buna camp. And once again, this was worn by members of the Red Berets.

Q. And as some of us here in the courtroom cannot read Cyrillic, can you say what it mean, these words?

A. It says here "Milicija Krajina."

THE INTERPRETER: Or "police Krajina.". Interpreter's note.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Yes. And then the next patch. It's tab 13. Is that familiar with you, and what does it say on the patch and who wore it?

A. This is another patch that I saw at the camp. It was worn by the Chetniks, Seselj's Chetniks, and the White Eagles. And I'd see this patch many times subsequently. You could quite simply buy it in the streets. And it says "Headquarters or main staff Serb Chetnik Movement."

Q. Thank you. And just you mention it was worn by Seselj's Chetniks and the White Eagles. What is the difference between the two? Could you distinguish them?

A. I wasn't able to distinguish between them when I arrived. The only thing I could see was the difference between them and the Red Berets. It was only later on that I learnt and became aware of the fact that they were in fact two groups, that one of them were Seselj's Chetniks and the others were the White Eagles.

Q. The White Eagles belonged to which organisation, which party or ²²⁰²⁵ founder?

A. All I can say on that score is that I heard they belonged to Jovic.

Q. While you were still in that same position, having observed the killing of Gagro, did you see a military officer?

A. Could you repeat that question, be more specific? An officer of what?

Q. Of the JNA.

A. Oh, that. Yes, I did.

Q. Yes. What did you see? What happened?

A. What I myself saw -- I didn't know who he was, actually, or what he was -- but a man turned up wearing a camouflage uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army, and he automatically began screaming right at the entrance to the camp.

Q. What was he screaming?

A. He screamed out, "Who sent you here?"

Q. What was -- what answer did he get?

A. The first answer he received - and I could hear that because Kusic was right close by - Kusic said, "You know very well who sent us."

Q. And did any other Red Berets join those two at some point in time?

THE INTERPRETER: "Who sent them?" Interpreter's note.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Across the road from the camp, in front of the school building, a man stood there whose name I learnt -- later learnt was Boro Todorovic. Now, whether from the front side or the back side, another man turned up, whom I didn't know ²²⁰²⁶ International Committee of the Red Cross but his name was Aco Legija, and he began talking to Perisic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Those two that you just mentioned, were they Red Berets or were they JNA? Who were they?

A. They were members of the Red Berets.

Q. What did they speak about with the officer?

A. Well, first of all, Aco Legija swore at him and then said that he knew who sent them there very well. And as there were three men standing there with him, Njegos Kusic started having an argument with him.

Q. What kind of an argument?

A. Well, as to who had sent them. Njegos Kusic for the first time said he would call Frenki up and then he would see who had sent them there.

Q. This reference to Frenki, did it mean anything to you? Did you know what he was -- to whom he was referring?

A. No, never heard of it.

Q. And this person, this JNA officer, did he have a high rank? Could you see it? And did you later on learn who he was?

A. Yes. Later on I learnt who that was. But I saw him for the first time on that occasion. He did have a rank of some kind, but I don't remember what exactly at the time. But he was Momcilo Perisic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we just briefly display the photo, tab 3.

Q. And is that the person you mentioned and you later met?

A. Yes, that's right. ²²⁰²⁷

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's a photo of --

JUDGE MAY: This is a convenient time. We'll adjourn now. Witness C-017, in this break and any other breaks there may be in your evidence, could you remember not to speak to anybody about it until it's over and not to let anybody speak to you about it, and that does include the Prosecution too.

Very well. It's something for the senior legal officer, please. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if this court isn't required this afternoon, we'll sit until 2.00 in order to make up some time.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Witness, you have described this dispute between Momcilo Perisic and the three Red Berets. How did the dispute end?

A. What I described is what happened right before me. After that, they left either to one of the bungalows or wherever. But at any rate, I couldn't see them any more.

Q. You have mentioned the -- the Chetniks, their patches. What kind of uniforms did they have?

A. As I've already pointed out, this was a group of criminals that were gathered from here and there and everywhere. They did not have any kind of uniforms that would show that they belonged to a particular unit or formation. There were JNA uniforms there. There were NATO-made uniforms or whatever you wish to call them. There were even some people ²²⁰²⁸ who wore civilian jackets or civilian trousers. At any rate, it was a mix of all sorts of things.

Q. The days that followed your arrival, what did you see them do?

A. All the entire settlement had been looted, the entire settlement at the Buna. As far as I managed to see from this camp - and I did see the houses later - the houses that had been looted. Also there were stolen cars there. I mean, quite simply they stopped people in the road and took their cars.

Q. And you have described the -- the patches that you saw on the Red Berets. What kind of uniforms did they wear?

A. The Red Berets had American-made uniforms, all of them.

Q. What was the relation between the Red Berets and the Chetniks? Was there anyone in superior -- was any group superior to the other?

A. Well, in this entire mess - and I already explained that when I arrived there, I realised it was an unorganised group - but after a while, one could see that the Red Berets dominated over the Chetniks and that the man who was truly in charge was Aco Legija.

Q. Aco Legija is -- has he anything to do with the deputy commander of the Arkan's with that same name, or is it a different Aco Legija?

A. No. It's a completely different person.

Q. Did you prepare a chart, a chart -- a name chart with the people that you met in the course of two Red Beret camps? Did you prepare a chart with the help of the Prosecutor indicating the name and the description of the person and what you learnt about this person?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honours, it's tab 2 of the Exhibit ²²⁰²⁹ 460.

Q. Did you -- did you give all these names of the people that you met and their details?

A. Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I do not intend to go through each and every person on this list, but those who really are important we will address specifically.

Q. Those -- I forgot to ask you: How many of these Chetniks were in the Buna camp and how many of the Red Berets, to your recollection?

A. I really cannot say how many there were exactly, because there was major disarray there. However, at any rate, there were more Chetniks than Red Berets.

Q. Those Red Berets that you saw, were they all from this original Red Berets, as you mentioned, that were trained in Knin, or were they also from different regions?

A. No. Absolutely all of those who were there and who I saw were members of the first 57, according to what they said themselves.

Q. Did they tell -- did they speak about where they had been before, in which regions?

A. Yes, they did. They did so often.

Q. What did they say? Where had they been before coming to Mostar?

A. I cannot remember everything, but most of the stories I heard were from Pero Divljak, like I mentioned in my statement. They told me that they had been in Borovo Selo, I can remember that, for instance. Then Knin, then Baranja, then Okucani, and also Plitvice. Those are some of ²²⁰³⁰ the places I can remember from what they told me.

Q. And those Seselj's Chetniks, where -- what did they say they had been?

A. I did not have many contacts with Seselj Chetniks. This is a group that was unavoidable, because they were all over the place, but it was not a good thing to be near them. However, I managed to find out later on, primarily from the Red Berets, that all of them, all of Seselj's Chetniks, had 27 days of training under the Red Berets at the camp in Golubic and that they had also been in Borovo Selo.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to go into private session just for a very brief question.

[Private session]

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²²⁰³²

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. You said -- you mentioned already the attack on Mostar. When did it take place? Do you recall?

A. Yes.

Q. Yes. When? ²²⁰³³

A. Yes, I do recall the attack on Mostar. It was on the 6th of May. And the 6th of May is Djurdjevdan, a holiday, St. George's Day.

Q. And we are talking about 1992.

A. Yes.

Q. Those that were in the Buna camp, the Chetniks and the Red Berets, did they take part in this attack on Mostar?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Where were you taken from Buna, to where in Mostar?

A. From Buna, we went to the barracks called Juzni Logor, southern camp. From where the attack was launched.

Q. Are these JNA barracks?

A. Yes. As I already said, at that time the JNA was still in existence, and this is JNA barracks.

Q. Were JNA troops involved in the attack?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Which units, to your knowledge? Which units were involved?

A. What I can say with certainty, as far as the JNA units are concerned, was that the right flank was held by the members of the 63rd Airborne Brigade, and on the side where I was there were all sorts of things, because there were quite a few JNA reservists there.

Q. And looking at the map that we had in the beginning, when you say "right flank," what -- what river bank do you mean? "Right flank," what does that mean?

A. I'm referring to the river.

Q. Yes. So the right bank in the direction -- from the direction of ²²⁰³⁴ Sarajevo or in the direction of Sarajevo? Which is the right bank?

A. For me, there are no banks. But this is the way Karadzic viewed things from Sarajevo, so from his vantage point it was the left bank, looking from Sarajevo.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just put it on the ELMO briefly and show it to us, yes, so that we are not confused about where the -- where the 63rd Airborne Brigade was and where you and the people from Buna were. You have to show it on the ELMO, please.

Q. Yes. Could you please -- could you please show it again.

A. The side where I was, this is the side where I was. Viewed from Sarajevo, it's the left bank. And viewed from here, it's the right bank. Members of the 63rd Airborne Brigade were on this side. And I, together with the others, was on this other side here.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing on the right side -- where the "D" is actually. It's easiest to see. He was on the side where Buna is and the Red Berets on the other side. Yes. Thank you. That's -- Airborne, yes, the 63rd Airborne Brigade.

Q. Were any local TO forces involved in this military activity?

A. Yes.

Q. And any police units?

A. Yes.

Q. With whom did the local TO and the police cooperate? On which side were they?

A. The local police and Territorial Defence were on the side where I ²²⁰³⁵ was, so that is to say the left.

Q. Who was in charge -- in overall charge of the attack?

A. As far as I know, the operations in the area, in the field actually, were led by Rade Mihajlovic. Above him were Cvetkovic and Malijevic.

Q. And who was in overall command of all troops? Do you know that?

A. Momcilo Perisic.

Q. Who gave assignments to your unit? Your direct superior was who?

A. Aco Legija.

Q. While the attack was ongoing - and I do not want to go in any details of the attack as such - did you observe what was done with civilians the troops came across?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you see?

A. Well, I saw when they were taking them out of the basements. I saw them kill a man who was almost 80 years old. That's it.

Q. Did you see any -- any looting or burning of properties?

A. Yes, I did. Everything was looted and torched, everything.

Q. Did you see anything involving a doctor and his family?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What happened to the doctor and his family?

A. I don't know what happened later, but what I saw was the doctor was shot in the leg.

Q. Who did that and why?

A. Kizo did the shooting. He was allegedly looking for a sniper. ²²⁰³⁶

Q. Kizo is who? To which group does he belong?

A. Kizo belonged to Seselj's Chetniks.

Q. The doctor, did he actually have a gun? And was he involved, to your knowledge, in any fighting?

A. No.

Q. Where did that take place? Was it outside or was it in the home of the doctor?

A. It was in the doctor's home, his apartment, that is.

Q. Did you observe the killing of a Croatian citizen called Cvitanovic?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Yes. What happened to this person?

A. This man was captured in civilian clothes. He was captured by the Serbian forces. First they beat him. Then they put him into a ditch and threw a hand grenade in.

Q. Did a TV crew come to this scene?

A. Yes, shortly after that.

Q. And what happened?

A. Then the locals showed the TV crew the corpse, and they said that they wanted to show them what the Croat forces were doing to Serb civilians.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we need to go into private session briefly for the next event.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. When you arrived in Rotimlja, did you see anything involving civilians?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you see?

A. Well, when we arrived up there, people in civilian clothing were lined up in two lines. They were apart from each other. In one line were Croats, and in the other line were Muslims. After that, Pejanovic, this captain, made a speech to them. He said that they were on Serb land and since Croats had been killing Serbs for years and for centuries, they had no business on Serb land, while the Muslims could remain if they were to be loyal to the Serb authorities.

Q. And did the Croats leave? Do you know? To your knowledge.

A. As far as I know, the Croats were transferred to the prison in Bileca.

Q. And the Muslims?

A. The Muslims stayed behind.

Q. Did the -- the Chetniks and the Red Berets from the Buna camp also take part in an attack on the village Bijelo Polje?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And were you joined -- while doing that, were you joined by other ²²⁰³⁹ troops? If so, which?

A. Yes. On the road leading to Bijelo Polje -- rather, the road on which we were supposed to go, we met up with a unit called Vukovarci, the men from Vukovar.

Q. What kind of unit was that? A regular army unit or what?

A. No, this was not a regular army unit. These were men who had been at the frontline in Vukovar.

Q. If not a regular army unit, what -- what were they -- to which groups were they related to? Were they Chetniks, or were they police? Can -- if you don't know, that's fine. But maybe you know.

A. What I can say with certainty is that this is a paramilitary formation. It was brought to Herzegovina by Novica Gusic.

Q. Were any TO or JNA units involved in this attack on the village Bijelo Polje?

A. Yes. Again, the same person, Rade Mihajlovic, and the same territorials too, or almost the same, from the surrounding Serb villages.

Q. Did you have air support during the attack, air support of the JNA?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. What happened to the village and the villagers during the attack?

A. I don't know what happened to them, because when we entered the village, the village was totally empty.

Q. And what about the -- did the looting take place and burning?

A. Yes, it did. These are things that such people invariably do.

Q. Did you see the murder of an old man? ²²⁰⁴⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²²⁰⁴¹

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Who did it and how was he murdered?

A. Well, he was murdered by Pero Divljak. First he cut off his ears, then threw him into a pool, and then he threw bricks at him until he drowned.

Q. Did the JNA withdraw from Mostar in June 1992?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Did Momcilo Perisic give a speech in relation to this withdrawal? And if so, what did he say?

A. Yes, he did. Momcilo Perisic made a speech at the airfield in front of everybody who happened to be there, in front of everybody who was there. He said that Mostar was sold for Doboj and Derventa, that his hands were tied, that this was a political game, that he couldn't do a thing, and that the only thing he could do was that he could leave weapons to those who would stay behind; whereas, those who would come along with him could become soldiers on a contractual basis.

Q. And did you understand what that meant?

A. Not quite, but I gathered that what he said, that is, that he would make it possible for them to become professional soldiers, that this applied to people who were born in Bosnia. So either they could go with him or they could stay where they were.

Q. Did the Red Berets take weaponry and vehicles from the army, from the JNA, during this withdrawal?

A. Yes, they did; the Red Berets and all the others.

Q. At the time of the withdrawal, did you see a massacre at the ²²⁰⁴² Neretva River?

A. Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we will need to go into private session just for one question. And in this context, we also have to put tab 4 on the ELMO.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²²⁰⁴³

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Witness, this big facility that we see where we have that circle, is that the north camp, a JNA facility?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. When the -- what was the JNA doing at that time? Where were the JNA units?

A. As I have already said, there was all-out panic because the JNA was withdrawing.

Q. Where did the massacre occur?

A. As far as I am able to say, it was on the Neretva River bank.

Q. Is that where there is a circle indicated and underneath is "Bakijina Luka"?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And there is -- what did you -- what did you see happen? When did you first notice it and what did you see?

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could turn off your microphone.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But there's no voice distortion.

JUDGE KWON: Oh, that was a mistake, I think. ²²⁰⁴⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From there, as I was told to go and see what was happening on the other side of the river. So right next to the river there were bunkers. And as I didn't want to be shot at from the other side, I climbed onto the building and from that building the first thing I saw was people in a column escorted by men in camouflage uniforms were crossing the road in the direction of the Neretva River.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. And what did you see then happen?

[redacted] [redacted] When I saw

that they were in a column escorted by men in camouflage uniform, it bode nothing good. I followed them with my binoculars as far as the river bank, and as I looked at the bank there was another group of men there in camouflage uniforms who were already killing civilians.

Q. Did you recognise anyone doing this killing?

A. Yes, I did. I recognised Pero Divljak and somebody called Vranjanac.

Q. Vranjanac, to which group did he belong?

A. Vranjanac belonged to Seselj's Chetniks.

Q. How could you recognise Divljak and him? Do they look particular?

A. First because Pero Divljak was with me for no longer than 20 or 30 minutes before that. We were together. And he's the only one who is over 2 metres tall, and Vranjanac is also quite tall, but I recognised him by the way in which he held his rifle.

Q. And you mentioned that those -- those people that were killed came ²²⁰⁴⁵ from a particular neighbourhood. Which neighbourhood is that and what kind of people from their ethnicity were they?

A. The people were mostly Muslims, and they were from the neighbourhood of Zalik. I don't know where they rounded them up, whether it was from shelters or their apartments. I don't know that. But anyway, they were from the neighbourhood called Zalik.

[redacted]

[redacted] ²²⁰⁴⁶

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Q. Did you see Divljak and Vranjanac later on? And if so, what did they look like?

A. I can't remember about Vranjanac. I do remember Pero Divljak. It is one of the images I'm trying to forget, because Pero Divljak wore a uniform that was totally soaked in blood.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would now like to go into private session, Your Honour.

THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. The Nevesinje Brigade, as you said, is that a -- a brigade of the JNA, or is it the VRS? Do you know?

A. At that point in time, when this was happening, I had no idea. However, that brigade later existed as the Herzegovina Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. In Nevesinje, did you see again the Red Berets and the Chetniks from the Buna camp? And if so, where were they staying?

A. Yes, I did meet them, at the hotel in Nevesinje.

Q. Did you see any JNA troops? And if so, where were they staying?

A. Yes, there were some JNA troops, but they were in the process of withdrawing.

Q. And which corps? Would you know?

A. As far as I can remember, judging by what people said, it was the Uzice Corps.

Q. Did the Red Berets and the Chetniks, did they cooperate with the police or the TO in the -- in Nevesinje? ²²⁰⁴⁹

A. Yes, they did.

Q. In which way did they cooperate? Where were they? Were they ...?

A. They did cooperate. As far as I can remember, there were several meetings that I saw headed by Novica Gusic, Aco Legija, Vranjanac, Miroslav Duka, Krsto Savic, all of them were there. I saw meetings, what they spoke about, I don't know.

Q. And did you see this person Duka whom you mentioned was the commander of the Herzegovina police?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you mentioned a Krsto Savic. Who was he? What was his position?

A. Yes, I mentioned Krsto Savic. He was commander of the police station in Nevesinje.

Q. You mentioned before in your testimony the group Vukovarci. Were they also in Nevesinje?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Did these -- did all these troops, did they conduct any operations in Nevesinje?

A. I spent a very short time in Nevesinje, but while I was there Nevesinje was totally cleansed of Muslims. The group that did this and boasted of this was a group of Vukovarci, commanded by Crni.

Q. Did you see any -- any signs of this cleansing of Muslims? What did they do? What did you see?

A. The only thing I saw were people in a bus, that is, women and children. And I learnt later from what others said that they were sent to ²²⁰⁵⁰ Trebinje and then from there to Macedonia. But that is only what I heard from others. I just saw the busses, nothing more than that.

Q. Did you see any looting or burning of houses?

A. On one occasion, yes.

Q. What did you see?

A. I saw Krsto Savic and the others who were with him when they killed Redzo Trebovic.

Q. Is that -- was that a Muslim?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Did you see how they killed him and what happened to his property?

A. [redacted] [redacted], the house had already been set on fire, the house that he was in, as was the house across the road, a new house owned by Redzo Trebovic, which they had already started looting. All I know is that they said that Redzo was inside -- rather, Krsto bragged that Redzo was inside.

Q. And Redzo, did he have a position? Who was he? You said he was a Muslim, but did he have a position?

A. What I learnt -- I had never been in Nevesinje before that in my life, but what I learnt from stories was that Redzo Trebevic was one of the wealthiest Muslims in Nevesinje and he held a position in the SDA, according to what they said.

Q. Did the Red Berets set up a training camp in the village Borci and start training there in July 1992?

A. Yes, they did. ²²⁰⁵¹

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, on this map, there is a "C" indicated where Borci is located.

Q. What was the name of this camp and what was it before and then during the war?

A. What the name of the camp was, I really don't know. But it is on the Boracko Lake. It was a tourist facility which was mainly used for tourist purposes.

Q. And you have made a sketch with the help of technical staff of the Prosecutor's Office of this camp; is that correct?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it's tab 6, Your Honour.

Q. Is that the sketch that you made?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And who used this camp? Who was -- who was housed there?

A. As I said, I spent a very short time in Nevesinje. And once we arrived at Borci, the camp had already been established and the Red Berets were inside.

Q. Were those Chetniks that had been in Buna, were they also there, or just the Red Berets?

A. There were only members of the Red Berets there.

Q. What was the camp used for by them? What was done in the camp?

A. The camp was used as a basis for the Red Berets, and they conducted training there.

Q. Who was trained there?

A. As I said, I myself and another young man was collected up in Nevesinje with Pero Divljak and Aco, and we came to the Boracka Jezero ²²⁰⁵² camp, and they were all there. But they weren't actually men. They were very young, children almost, and they were all rounded up from the village of Borci, which is across from the lake, the Boracko Lake.

Q. Does that mean they trained new recruits?

A. Yes.

Q. How many Red Berets were there to train these young people?

A. I have told you of all those that I could think of, 10 or 12 of them. I can't be quite specific. Generally speaking, it was the group that arrived at the Buna.

Q. So those you mean you listed in tab 2, all these people you listed in tab 2, the chart with all the names?

A. Yes, that's who I'm thinking of. Not all of them, because some of them had left. Actually, just one left. All the others were still there, as far as I can remember.

Q. The training the young men received there consisted of what? What -- just briefly, what kind of training did you get?

A. Well, it was the same sort of training that those men had attended, or as far as I could see, that they went through in Knin with Captain Dragan, the same drills. And this was done under their supervision and it was their military training, in fact.

Q. And how do you know that it was the same training? Were any -- any training materials used from Knin?

A. Well, I don't know what kind of material was used, but I saw the tapes that they showed us, which were taken in Knin, the footage of that.

Q. Did you see a person, Major Fico, on these tapes? And if so, what ²²⁰⁵³ did you see him do?

A. Yes, I did see that individual, and they said his name was Major Fico. And he was conducting a training exercise using a knife.

Q. Did Frenki visit -- Frenki Simatovic visit the camp?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you describe what happened, how he arrived and what happened.

A. First they had said that the camp had to be cleaned up and put in order, and then they placed some benches in the headquarters. Frenki arrived by helicopter. We were all lined up. Aco Legija reported to him about the situation in the camp. I can't remember everything he said, but he said how many men there were in the camp and the level of readiness in the camp and military, things of that kind. Then Frenki delivered a patriotic speech about the Serbian knights and the successes scored by the Red Berets. I can't remember the exact wording of the speech. But there was this patriotic schund being delivered. And once that was over, the speech of his, we went into a room that they used as headquarters where we were given according to CZ-99 the pistols that had arrived with Frenki, and we were told that we would have to write the CVs of all of us in order to become members of the Red Berets, to write a curriculum vitae for membership.

Q. Was that the first time that you saw Frenki Simatovic?

A. Yes, that was my -- the first and last time I ever saw him.

Q. Did he introduce himself or was he introduced by his name?

A. No. After Aco Legija reported to him, he gave us his full name and surname and then proceeded to deliver his speech. ²²⁰⁵⁴

Q. And you have mentioned a pistol that arrived with Frenki Simatovic. Did you get that pistol?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that a present, or what was the occasion?

A. What it was exactly, I don't know. You'll have to ask Frenki that. But all the new arrivals were given a pistol, because all the old ones, the Red Berets, already had these CZ-99-type pistols.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please, Your Honour.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²²⁰⁵⁵

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. In the vicinity of the Red Beret camp, was there also an army facility?

A. Yes. Across from the river was the village of Borci, and the members of the Serb forces were put up there. They had their facilities. This was when the Serb forces were transformed into the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. And did these Serb forces cooperate with the Red Berets and the camp?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. While you were in the camp, did you observe any atrocities or any indications of atrocities?

A. On one occasion, yes.

Q. What did you see? What happened?

A. It was night-time, and I was coming back from the village of Borci, and at the entrance to the camp, once I had entered the camp - and ²²⁰⁵⁶ you can see that on the diagram here - as you enter the camp, on the left-hand side there is the command facility and there was a man in civilian clothes standing there with his hands tied behind his back. Two or three minutes later or one minute later Pero Divljak picked the man up and took him off in the direction of the lake. He didn't see me or the guard I was with. However, Pero came back very quickly after that and his knife was all bloody, covered in blood, and he began screaming at me, what was I doing there, why wasn't I in bed, it was high time I was in bed, and he kicked me and I left.

Q. Did you see any women in the camp?

A. During the night, yes -- no, actually, during the next day, because during the night a state of emergency had been proclaimed, and so where I was lying -- actually, there's a light in front of each bungalow, and I was able to see that the members of the Red Berets were coming and going. There was a lot of coming and going amongst the Red Berets throughout that time.

Q. And you -- when did you see the women?

A. It was either the following day or two days later.

Q. Where were the women? Where in the camp?

A. As I've already said in my statement, I wasn't actually in the camp when they brought them in. That's why I didn't see them straight away. However, the women were in the bungalow, from which the Red Berets were coming and going throughout the night, going in and coming out. And I saw them either the next day or two days after from a distance.

Q. Did you learn what ethnicity these women had and what happened to ²²⁰⁵⁷ them while in the camp?

A. Yes. And not only me, but all the others too. We learnt what had happened the following day, because the next day the local Serbs from Zaborani turned up and we learnt from them that they were Muslims from Fazlagic Kula.

Q. And do you know whether these women were assaulted?

A. I can't say anything about that. I can just tell you what I saw. I did see the Red Berets going into their bungalow and out of it throughout the night. Now, what actually happened, I can't say. I didn't see it myself.

Q. Let's briefly speak about a few other camps, Red Beret camps. Were you aware that the Red Berets had a camp in Fruska Gora? And if so, who was in charge there and what else did you learn about it?

A. I did learn that the Red Berets had not only a camp at Fruska Gora but several camps, in fact. And most of those stories, most of that information I learned from Pero Divljak. Although, I learned about it from others as well. And what I heard from them was the man who could collect up anybody he wished from any camps was called Zivojin Ivanovic, nicknamed Zika Crnogorac, the Montenegrin.

Q. Did you ever meet this person, and how could he pick up each person he wanted?

A. Ah, well, yes. I got to know this bestial person in human form. He was indeed the commander of the camps. And not only from Pero Divljak, but I heard about -- stories going round about the power of Zika Crnogorac, the power he wielded. ²²⁰⁵⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²²⁰⁵⁹

Q. Did Pero Divljak tell you about a visit of Frenki in Fruska Gora camp?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. Pero Divljak told me that they - I don't know where they came from - or rather, they had returned from Croatia or somewhere else to Lezimir at Fruska Gora, and they were in the camp for about 20 days without any television sets, radios, just training. And after 20 days of this, Frenki turned up and they were all lined up and told that there were demonstrations going on in Belgrade and that they were a unit belonging to the system and anybody who wanted to do any shooting could leave. Pay Divljak tried to leave but he was saved by Ilija Vuckovic, Rambo, who took him by the hand and said that this was just a joke, which turned out to be true, because all those who did step down were actually taken to the hangar by this same man Zika Crnogorac, where they were well beaten up.

Q. Were you aware that there was a Tara camp in Mitrovac in Montenegro? And if so, who was in charge of this?

A. Yes, I was aware of that. I did hear of the Tara camp and that Zika Crnogorac was in charge of that camp too. The man who told me this in actual fact was one of his instructors, and his name was Duco Durutovic.

Q. And one last question: Were you told where the Red Berets from the Tara camp had actions, where did they get involved?

A. What I can tell you about that is this: I saw a document once which indicated that the Red Berets were operational around the area of ²²⁰⁶⁰ Zeleni Jadar, or rather, the mine of Osmaci and the area of Srebrenica, in fact.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's time.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that's obviously convenient. We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

Could you be back, Witness C-017, then, at 9.00 tomorrow morning. Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

the 11th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.