²²¹⁹⁶

Thursday, 12 June 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Mr. Osman Selak. Your Honour, while we're awaiting the arrival of the witness, the Prosecution will be tendering three exhibits through Mr. Selak, the first being transcripts from the Brdjanin and Talic case and Tadic case in which he testified and which is the subject of an order from this Chamber. Secondly --

JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with them one at a time.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the transcript is Prosecution Exhibit 462.

MR. GROOME: The next exhibit, Your Honour, is a set of exhibits, 76 tabs, which are the exhibits that were tendered in the course of the testimony of this witness during those two trials. They are in two binders but consecutively numbered tab numbers 1 through 76.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Let's give them a number first and then we'll swear the witness and then we'll hear any objections.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 463.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. ²²¹⁹⁷

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: It was an issue of clarification concerning the transcripts. The Court will remember the order in which we pared down the transcripts from the original trial.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. KAY: I take it that part of exhibit which makes up 462 will be the extracted portions of the transcript.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: And finally, Your Honour, there is a binder with new exhibits that we will seek to tender through this witness.

THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecution Exhibit 464.

JUDGE MAY: Yes Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony before the Chamber by telling us your name.

A. My name is Osman Selak.

Q. I'd ask that we begin by having you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 1, and sir, I ask you, is this a summary of your educational and professional background made after you arrived here at The Hague with the assistance of members of the OTP staff?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that your initials on the bottom of the exhibit? ²²¹⁹⁸

A. Yes, that is my signature.

Q. And are you willing to answer additional questions with respect to your qualifications?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Can you tell us what was the highest rank that you achieved in the JNA?

A. The highest rank was commander of the logistics base. And in March 1992, head of the department for cooperation with the peacekeeping operations of the United Nations in Bosnian Krajina. After that, I was replaced because I was considered politically unsuitable.

Q. How many men did you command, have under your command during the time you were a commander?

A. The logistics base of which I was the commander after the mobilisation in September 1991 numbered about 2.300 to 2.500 men. The number varied depending on needs. It would be increased with the increase of the zone of responsibility of the logistics base.

Q. Now, sir, the Chamber and the accused and the amici all have copies of your prior testimony in the two trials in which you've testified before the International Tribunal. I'm going to just ask you to -- or draw your attention to some particular points that were not covered in your previous testimony and ask you to comment on them. The next thing I'm going to ask you to look at is Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 2.

MR. GROOME: If the usher could hand up the exhibit to the witness.

Q. Sir, prior to testifying today have you had an opportunity to read ²²¹⁹⁹ this document?

A. No.

Q. I'm asking you after you came to The Hague but before testifying here this morning did you have an opportunity to read this document?

A. In the OTP, yes.

Q. Can you please summarise what that document is for us?

A. Here the commander of the republican staff of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina is ordering to the district staffs of the Territorial Defence through the municipal staffs of Territorial Defence to carry out the collection of all weaponry and ammunition from social and public enterprises and to place that weaponry in JNA warehouses.

Q. And what is the date of this order or document?

A. The 23rd of October, 1990.

Q. During your time with the JNA, did you ever receive a copy of this document?

A. I did have an order to collect weapons from TO units in my zone of responsibility, which we did. A part of that assignment was carried out by the 5th JNA Corps in the territory of Bosnian Krajina.

Q. And during what period of time did you collect or have the responsibility for collecting weapons from the Territorial Defence units?

A. From the end of 1990 until the end of 1991 weapons were collected on a continuous basis. I don't know about the corps because it never provided that information, though all the weapons, pursuant to the law, should have been stored in the warehouses of the logistics base. However, what the corps collected was never returned to the base. ²²²⁰⁰

Q. And were you aware through your subordinates that weapons were in fact being collected from the various Territorial Defence depots in your area of responsibility?

A. Yes.

Q. The next matter that I seek to ask you a question about is something which you testified in great detail in the Brdjanin and Talic case and the Tadic case. I would just note for the record or for the Chamber's benefit the reference in the Brdjanin and Talic transcript for this portion of testimony is transcript number 12.925 to 926. The question I want to ask you simply is: Did there come a time when General Uzelac requested from you that you dispense weapons from your stores that you deemed to be in violation of JNA regulations?

A. Yes, General Uzelac required of me that I issue weapons to TO units in Sipovo and Mrkonjic Grad and for the 5th Kozara Brigade on Mount Mrakovica near Prijedor. This was contrary to the law, because weapons could be issued only following an officially declared mobilisation, and this had not been done.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interest of saving time, I will not replay for this witness an intercept that was played during the witness Milan Babic. It was an intercept between -- I'm just informed that it was in fact not finally tendered with Milan Babic. If I may come back to it in a little while.

Q. Sir, I'm now going to ask you to take a look at tab 4 of Prosecution Exhibit 464. And, sir, this is a two-part document, a cover letter and then an assessment request or assessment report attached to ²²²⁰¹ that cover letter. Can I draw your attention first to the cover letter, and the first thing I would ask you to comment on is the date of the letter. According to your knowledge and experience, the translation has the date as the 20th of September, 1992. Is that date correct?

A. On the title page it says March 1992. Let me look at the end where the signature is. Milutin Kukanjac.

Could you repeat the date that you indicated?

Q. Well, perhaps it's just a translation error. Do you read the date as -- the date on the top of the cover letter as being March 20th?

A. No.

Q. Sir, I believe you're --

A. No. I don't see that. I see the 19th of March under (c).

Q. Sir, I believe you're looking at the assessment report. I'm asking you to look at the cover letter first. A copy of that cover letter is on the television screen in front of -- on the --

MR. GROOME: If the usher could set up the television screen.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. GROOME: And if the usher could also hand an original to the witness, that's easier.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date is the 20th of March, 1992, issued by the command of the 2nd Military District, and it is addressed to the General Staff of the armed forces of the SFRY to the Chief of Staff personally. The document was signed by the commander of the 2nd Military District, Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac.

MR. GROOME: ²²²⁰²

Q. Now, General Kukanjac, is that a person whose signature you are familiar with?

A. Yes, it is. I saw it hundreds of times, and I was even present when he signed some documents.

Q. Sir, can I ask you to read for us the last sentence of the cover letter just above the signature.

A. "Please return these documents to us after use. For thoroughly justified reasons, we propose that only a very limited number of people be acquainted with these documents. Commander Kukanjac."

Q. Now, that letter refers to the assessment which I now ask you to turn your attention to, and could I ask you to look at the first page of the assessment and tell us the date that's printed across the front of the assessment.

A. On the first page of the conclusions, the date indicated is the 19th of March, 1992, under point (c), if that is what you mean.

Q. Yes. I want to now draw your attention to item (5)(f). It's being displayed on the television screen in front of you, and you have the hard copy on the desk in front of you. Can you perhaps for -- take a look at the screen in front of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Could I ask you to read item (f) for us and explain its significance.

A. Point (f), "The Yugoslav People's Army has distributed 51.900 pieces of weapons (75 percent), and the Serbian Democratic Party, 17.298 pieces of weaponry." ²²²⁰³

Q. Are you able to tell from this document where those weapons would have come from?

A. The quantity distributed by the Yugoslav People's Army came from the warehouses of various logistics bases and from the surplus of weaponry in corps obtained by the pull-out of units of the JNA from Slovenia and Croatia. And the Serbian Democratic Party received these weapons both from the JNA and from the transports coming from Slovenia and Croatia, sidestepping the logistics bases by stopping corps units and distributing those weapons to the Serbian Democratic Party and to the Territorial Defence units and their volunteers.

Q. The section I'd ask to draw your attention to it is the section immediately under that where it says "Experiences." Can you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I'm asking you to skip the first paragraph in that section, and could you read the second and third paragraph of that section?

A. Yes. "Some leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party at all levels are, through various channels, requesting weapons from the Yugoslav People's Army and the Ministry of National Defence of Serbia thereby fighting for superiority which has created divisions and dissatisfaction among the people."

Q. If you could you continue with the next paragraph.

A. "Some SDS leaders are advocating disassociation from the Yugoslav People's Army and the creation of a different army which could have negative consequences for the JNA, especially regarding the plan to replenish its units." ²²²⁰⁴

Q. The next section I would ask you to draw your attention to and seek your comment is under item number (6), and it is being displayed on the screen in front of you, and if I could draw your attention to the third paragraph from the top that begins "For the Territorial Defence." It's also on the screen in front you, Mr. Selak. It may be easier to --

A. Yes. Yes. "For the Territorial Defence, 78.400 weapons and 1.500 tons of ammunition."

Q. Does that indicate at least in this one instance the quantity of weapons that were distributed to Territorial Defence units?

A. Yes. This is for the Territorial Defence, but it was also distributed among the people in apartment buildings, in various streets, villages. Houses were marked with black markers to indicate that they were Serb houses. And I saw this personally in Derventa, and to those houses weapons were distributed.

Q. Now, sir, if I can just ask you to summarise the rest of the document, and would it be fair to say that the document goes on to describe other locations in which weapons were distributed to both the Territorial Defence and civilians in the manner you've just described?

A. Yes. The district commander clearly indicates the locations, the quantities of weapons and ammunition given to units of the Territorial Defence in those localities. And he even suggests that a part of the reserves from the ammunition depots in the logistics base at Sevarlije near Doboj be relocated to Loznica in Serbia.

Q. Sir, if I can now draw your attention to another exhibit. It is tab 6 of Prosecution exhibit 464. If I could ask the usher to return tab ²²²⁰⁵ number 4. And I would first draw your attention to the signature on this document. Do you recognise the signature?

A. Yes, I do recognise the signature of Colonel Bogdan Subotic. We have been comrades for many years. We worked together at the military academy in Banja Luka for 17 years.

Q. Can I ask you to summarise the contents of tab 6, Prosecution Exhibit 464 for us?

A. The content of this document is that the Minister of Defence of the Army of Republika Srpska is asking the command of the 2nd Military District of the JNA in Sarajevo that active military officers be engaged to bring up to strength the republican and municipal defence of Sarajevo and the Doboj region.

Q. What is the date of this document?

A. The date is the 27th of April, 1992.

Q. And could I ask you to read the first sentence of the document.

A. "Pursuant to essential needs for replenishment with the most vital personnel in the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in accordance with agreement reached and promises made in Belgrade, we are asking you to assist us as soon as possible with providing senior officers for the following positions." And now the specialties are indicated, and for some people the actual names and ranks are given.

Q. Now, sir, you were a Muslim commander in the JNA during the period of this document. My question to you is: Were you ever aware of an agreement and a promise from Belgrade with respect to Territorial Defence ²²²⁰⁶ units that were in your area of responsibility?

A. Such information never reached me because I was not invited to such meetings because I was not suitable in view of the policies being pursued precisely by Belgrade and the Serbian republic or, rather, the Defence Ministry of the Army of the Republic of Srpska.

Q. And, sir, why were you considered unsuitable?

A. Being a Bosniak, that is a Muslim, they probably felt that I shouldn't hear these things because arming units of the TO and volunteer units applied only to the Serbian people and not to the Bosniak and Croatian peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that exhibit.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next series of nine documents all relate to a similar area and is documents related to weapons received by different Territorial Defence units. In the interests of saving time, the witness has been asked to prepare a summary chart which is tab 7 of Prosecution 464. I will show that to the witness now and with the Court's leave go through each of the documents rather briefly and ask that tab 7 and the witness's comments as recorded in that document be used in conjunction with the Court's assessment of these documents or if the Court prefers, I can go into greater detail with live testimony of the witness's perception of each document.

JUDGE MAY: No. In the interests of time, the course which you suggest is appropriate.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab ²²²⁰⁷ 7. It is a table of a summary of nine different documents. Sir, do you recognise that table?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Is that a table that you prepared in conjunction with members of the OTP staff earlier this week?

A. Yes, it is and I signed each page myself.

Q. And did you verify the accuracy of all the comments regarding the documents made in your own language?

A. Yes, I verified each one, and I provided comments for each of the documents separately.

Q. I'm now going to ask you to comment briefly on some of those documents. I would ask that that table be kept up on your desk in front of you in case you need to refer to it.

MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown tab 8 of Prosecution Exhibit 464.

Q. Mr. Selak, keeping in mind that we have some of your comments regarding this particular document, can I just draw your attention to the list of names there? Can you describe what is the purpose of the 10 people listed there?

A. The purpose of this list of ten names is that these people were participants in the national liberation war during the Second World War, and the president of the Municipal Board of the Association of War Veterans of the National Liberation War requests that these persons be provided with personal weapons.

Q. Are you able to tell from the names of these people their ²²²⁰⁸ ethnicity, and if so, can you describe the respective ethnicities that are represented on this list?

A. Yes. Judging by their names, these are all Serbs with the exception of number 5, Faik Avdic, who is a Muslim, a Bosniak.

Q. I now ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 9. This is a series of related documents one dated the 13th of December, 1991, the second dated the 3rd of January, 1992, and the third dated the 8th of January, 1992. Can I draw your attention first to the 13th of December document and ask you, can you summarise what is that document?

A. Here the commander of the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Petrovac demands, he doesn't request, he demands these materiel and technical equipment for Bosanski Petrovac and it refers to infantry weapons, and there are 15 different types of weapons listed.

Q. And I want to draw your attention to item number 15. It's a request for clothing sets for soldiers, and the number that's requested is 1.200. Based upon your experience as the commander of a logistics base, are you able to interpret what that means, the 12.000 uniforms that are requested as opposed to the items that are requested in items 1 through 14?

A. One thousand, two hundred, yes.

Q. Based upon your experience, does that allow you to draw any conclusion with respect to the number of weapons that are requested as opposed to the number of uniforms that have been requested?

A. On an average, the numbers of the Territorial Defence units with respect to the size of the municipality was between 4 to 500 men. That ²²²⁰⁹ might vary according to the size of the municipality. But in Bosanski Petrovac, they had already mobilised 540 men and that's what it says in this document. Now they're asking combat sets for another 1.200 which means that the unit of Territorial Defence for Bosanski Petrovac were a number a total of 1.700 roughly, which means mobilisation of the whole population of military-able men for Territorial Defence.

Q. And is the -- are you able to conclude whether or not the people that the uniforms are requested for, whether they were armed previously to this request?

A. No. No, they weren't. They weren't armed previously. And this is just a part of the weaponry. These are small quantities, different types of pistols, rifles, et cetera, for several hundred men. However, the -- they had weapons issued to them before, because the 530th Logistics Base was also there and JNA units were pulling out of Croatia and Slovenia in that territory there. So the TO units would take weapons from them and arm themselves in that way.

Q. Now, if I can draw your attention to the 3rd of January document, 3rd of January, 1992, my first question to you is: Can you tell us who is the author of the document?

A. This document was written by the commander of the 553 -- and 30th base in Petrovac, Colonel Milan Skondric. I know him personally, and he took over from me in July 1992, Banja Luka, took over duty from me.

Q. Can I ask you to read the second paragraph of this document beginning with the words "having evaluated political and security situation." ^{22210 BLANK PAGE 22211}

A. "Having evaluated the political and security situation throughout the 530th POB Logistics Base zone of responsibility and taking account of the tasks which the newly formed units of the Bosanski Petrovac territorial staff have, we have concluded that these will serve to control the territory administrative and lateral communications, protect facilities of particular significance and coordinate action by the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army units, in the eventual or possible execution of combat operations in this area."

Q. As --

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, could you confirm whether the translation of this document was provided?

MR. GROOME: To the Chamber?

JUDGE KWON: I don't think we have it. The document signed by General Skondric.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, maybe I can give the ERN number and confirm it that way, and if not I will have a copy provided. The ERN number is 03000471.

JUDGE KWON: It's the first document, yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, because --

JUDGE KWON: That was the mistake. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Because of the ERN numbers, they were ordered sequentially by ERN number rather than by date. They were just ERNed in the correct order.

JUDGE KWON: I found it.

MR. GROOME: ²²²¹²

Q. Sir, drawing your attention to the last phrase that you just read to us, "The eventually execution of combat operations in this area," as a commander of the JNA in January 1992 were you aware of any planned combat operations in this area, planned as of January 1992?

A. In January 1992, in the area of responsibility of the 530th Logistics Base, there were no combat operations of any kind. Bosanski Petrovac covered the territory -- the logistics base of Bosanski Petrovac covered the area up to Kljuc, towards Daruvar and in that area of Bosnia-Herzegovina and there was no combat going on there.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: In the eventuality of.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I draw your attention now to the 8th of January, 1992, document. My question to you is: Are you able to tell whether this request was approved by the JNA?

A. Yes. It was approved by Colonel Gradmir Petrovic from the technical service who came from the 5th Military District of Zagreb where he was the head of the technical service. I knew him. Unfortunately, he was killed in Sarajevo immediately after these operations.

Q. Mr. Selak, I would like to draw your attention now to another exhibit. It's Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 10, and can we have your comments on the table which is tab 7. My question to you simply is if you would read the first or the title or the letterhead of this document for us?

A. "The Socialist Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina, Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa, Executive Board," is sending a ²²²¹³ letter to the military post of 1754 of Bosanski Petrovac which is the 530th Logistics Base of Petrovac, but they're using a military postcode, 1754 in this case, and is requesting arms for the Territorial Defence.

Q. Mr. Selak, is it fair for us to conclude from that document that the people requesting the document did so in the name of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa and did it in direct communication to the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. I now draw your attention to Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 11. This is a letter of correspondence from the JNA dated the 23rd of April, 1992. Can I ask you to read the first line of the first paragraph?

A. "The Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa asks the command of the 530th Logistics Base and the 10th command corps for help in forming the Territorial Defence units and providing quartermaster and technical material supplies for them (weapons and ammunition) in the first place."

Q. Is this an order or a document from the JNA indicating or recognising the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

A. Yes. And he quotes: "Bearing in mind the order of the Federal Secretary for National Defence, strictly confidential," and the number is 359-1, the 29th of February, 1992, as well as the political situation in this municipality, "we think that certain material supplies should be approved, and they should be issued by the 530th Logistics Base." And it is signed bit assistant commander for logistics of the 10th corps, Grujo Boric.

Q. Sir, you've just read from the second paragraph and highlighted to ²²²¹⁴ us a reference to a top secret order --

A. Yes.

Q. 359-1, dated the 21st of February, 1992. In the context of this letter, it appears that this letter has something is to do with logistics. You as the commander of a logistics base at this time, did you ever see order 359-1?

A. I can't remember having seen this document under this number because a lot of documents pass through my hands, but I do know that it existed and that it was referred to in communication with units in the area under my responsibility.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think questions of this kind can be asked. We don't have the actual text of the order itself, so this can be quite distorted. It's quite distorted to put it in context with -- and in connection with anything else. For the question to be asked and answered, we would have to have the complete text of the order itself.

JUDGE MAY: The witness says he doesn't remember any such document as this and he's replied in those terms, so there's no evidential value in his response, however, we have the document for what it's worth. Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I now draw your attention to Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 13. And I simply ask you is this another reference in JNA military correspondence to the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

A. Yes. Bosanski Petrovac is what this is. The military post of Bosanski Petrovac. And the request is for Bosanski Novi in actual fact. ²²²¹⁵

Q. And can I draw your attention --

MR. GROOME: My apologies, Your Honour, I misspoke. It's tab 12 that the witness is looking at now, not tab 13.

Q. Sir, could I ask you to look at -- this document also refers to confidential order 359-1; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it also refer to a confidential order 2268-1 of the 30th of December 1991?

JUDGE MAY: Which tab is he looking at?

MR. GROOME: 12, Your Honour. 464, tab 12.

Q. If I draw your attention to the last line just above General Kukanjac's signature.

A. Do you want me to read it out?

Q. No. I'm just asking you does it refer to another confidential order 2268-1 of the 30th of December, 1991?

A. Yes. Yes, it does. And the signature is of General -- Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac who signed it personally.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I notice here it says: "From the surplus in the 10th corps unit and available reserves issue weapons," et cetera. I'd like to find out in what circumstances would there be a surplus in the 10th corps unit. If the witness can help us with that. How did it come about that there was a surplus? Was that a pretty regular ordinary ²²²¹⁶ circumstance?

MR. GROOME:

Q. Mr. Selak, are you able to address Judge Robinson's query? Please explain.

A. Yes, Your Honour, I can answer that question. I said a moment ago that when the units pulled out along with materiel from Slovenia that a lost of units had to pass through this territory, and the units of the corps took for themselves certain materiel and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition. However, every unit has a certain portion of materiel and equipment, and not to create a surplus for them they gave the surplus to the Territorial Defence, and the rest came from the logistics base.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir --

MR. GROOME: Your Honours, if I could just point out for the record, the confidential order 2268-1 referred to in tab 12 as well as tab 15, that was introduced in the Prosecution case as Prosecution Exhibit 387, tab 20.

Now, if I could ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 13.

Q. And if I could first, Mr. Selak, draw your attention to the seal. Do you recognise the seal on this document?

A. Yes, this is the seal of the staff of the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Novi. ²²²¹⁷

Q. And does this document indicate the issuance of a number of different supplies including military armaments to the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Novi?

A. Yes.

Q. Sir, the documents that we've seen from the JNA that refer to different municipalities as Serbian municipalities during this early part of 1992, does that indicate to you a disposition of the JNA at that particular time?

A. Yes. This does tell me of the disposition and behaviour of the JNA towards the arming of the units of Territorial Defence. Weapons and other materiel and equipment were given to other Serb municipalities, and I personally had some problems with respect to certain units, with General Uzelac, in fact, and later on with General Talic, but more with Uzelac. And we came to a verbal clash.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was not my superior.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question is quite inappropriate, that is to say to link it to tab 13, because the document in tab 13, in fact, relates to the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Novi, and not to the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serb municipality, and that is vital.

JUDGE MAY: You can ask questions about that when it's your turn, but don't interrupt, please, the evidence. ²²²¹⁸

MR. GROOME: For the record, that question was in relation to Tabs 10, 11, and 12.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am indicating to you --

JUDGE MAY: No. It's not an objection. It's a point about the document. You can ask the witness about it. You will have your chance in cross-examination, as you know, and you can point out these things.

MR. GROOME: I now ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 14. Perhaps the witness could be shown tab 14 and tab 15. They are closely related documents. If 14 and 15 could be placed before him at the same time.

Q. Sir, are these two requests for armaments from the municipality of Bihac?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the ethnic make-up of Bihac?

A. The ethnic composition of Bihac was a majority Bosniak population.

Q. And having -- having read the documents, does it indicate to you that the municipality of Bihac, their request for weapons was treated in a manner differently than the Serbian municipalities represented in the documents you've spoken to earlier?

A. Yes. This is precisely borne out by what I said a moment ago, because the commander of the military district here and Colonel Petrovic, the technical services head, is being sent on requests for equipment to the Federal Secretariat of national defence and the technical service in Belgrade, and it refers to an order of the Chief of Staff of the SFRY, 2268, 13th of December, et cetera. ²²²¹⁹

Q. I'll now ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 16?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognise the signature on this document?

A. Yes. The signature is Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac, commander of the 2nd Military District.

Q. And can you summarise the contents of this document for us?

A. Yes. This is a little strange and unusual, actually, for a commander of a military district to order the command of the light division of anti-aircraft defence. So the order is directly to them that due to the current situation in the city of Sarajevo, the staff of the Territorial Defence of Novo Sarajevo, where there is a majority Serb population, to issue rifles, semi-automatic rifles of the 7.62 millimetre type and 250 pieces of those, in fact. And this document indicates that the commander of the district directly went down to the level of a division and is in charge of the direct arming of the Territorial Defence Staff with the Serb majority population. It's not quite logical. It's a little illogical, but that's how it was, and it concerns the light artillery battalion.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interests of saving time, I will not refer to two exhibits that I originally intended to refer to. They were dealt with in some manner in the Brdjanin and Talic case. They are in the binders or the Prosecution Exhibits now 463, tab 35, and 463, tab 36. They are documents or other examples of the -- what the witness is describing in the last few minutes. Respectively they were in the ²²²²⁰ Brdjanin and Talic case DB117 and DB117.

I will now ask the witness to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 19.

JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Groome. I was just advised that your reference to the tab 20 of Exhibit 387 is incorrect. Please check it out later.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. Sir, can I ask you to take a look at this Exhibit 464, tab 19, and ask you to -- or draw your attention to the three numbered paragraphs on that page. And my question to you is: After the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia, did some members of the JNA remain behind in the VRS army, some officers?

A. Yes.

Q. And some of the officers that remained behind, were they Serb or Montenegrin officers?

A. They were Serbs and Montenegrins.

Q. Does this document in paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 indicate the conditions under which a Serb, a Montenegrin officer, formerly in the JNA, presently serving in the VRS could return, leave Bosnia, and re-enter service in the JNA in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

A. No. What it does is explain that any leave must have authorisation and that disciplinary action will be taken for anybody who leaves the unit of the Army of Republika Srpska of their own accord.

Q. And does the document indicate who will -- who will subject these such people to disciplinary action, which army? ²²²²¹

A. Disciplinary measures will be taken both in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and in the Serb republic as well, and in the JNA.

Q. I now want to draw your attention to an exhibit that was tendered through you in the Brdjanin and Talic case. It is tab 32, Prosecution 463. It is your own work notebook. Before I ask you substantive questions about your notebook, can I ask you a few questions about how you made the entries in this notebook? And my first question to you is: Do you have the original of this notebook with you here in court?

A. Yes, I do. I have it in my briefcase.

MR. GROOME: With the Court's permission, I ask that the witness be allowed to use his original copy.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Mr. Selak, while you are taking out the original copy, can I ask you, were you required to keep a work notebook detailing your activities as commander of the logistics base?

A. Yes. Every officer of the Yugoslav People's Army was duty-bound to keep a work notebook for his official contacts. And there were two formats for this, the one I am holding in my hand now and a small pocket version. And the notebook was registered in the general protocol and logbook. It was assigned a number, and that is in fact an official document in the control and command of units.

Q. And the entries that you made in your personal notebook, did you make them contemporaneously with the events, meetings or matters, contained in the notebook? ²²²²²

A. Yes. That's precisely what I did and I made the entries according to the dates. My last notebook was left with Mr. -- Colonel Skondric who took over duty from me, but I took this with me, this one with me and the first date and entry is the 19th of December, 1991. And I recorded all the meetings I had with my subordinates, with the officers, with my superiors, and all other official meetings as well.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, if you could give me the Exhibit number once again.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we provided courtesy copies earlier -- was it last week?

We provided courtesy copies of these exhibits this morning, and it's under tab 32 of the big binder.

Q. Mr. Selak, I ask to draw your attention at this point to an entry on the 4th of May, 1992.

MR. GROOME: And for the assistance of the Chamber, the ERN number is 01104766. So 766 would take you to the page of 4th of May, 1992.

Q. Mr. Selak, on the 4th of May did you attend a meeting during which there was a discussion or a decision with respect to financial matters discussed?

A. Yes. I informed the commanding officer in the base command about the orders I had received from my superior. And among other things, I informed them that the military computer centre was being transferred to the Federal Secretariat for National Defence of the 1st Military District in Belgrade.

Q. What was discussed at that meeting? ²²²²³

A. At that meeting, I informed my superiors regarding the condition of logistics support on certain breakdowns in communications towards the 2nd district, that the command of the 5th Corps was in Banja Luka from the 15th of May. Let me point out that up until then, it was in the building of the penitentiary in Stara Gradiska in Croatia. And the Federal Secretariat for national defence was set to visit units in Banja Luka. That is the 5th corps.

Q. On this same day -- I'm sorry. Can I now draw your attention to your diary entry on the 4 of the June, 1992.

MR. GROOME: And if I could indicate to the Chamber the ERN number. 01104801 to 4804 are the pages that I'll be referring to in the English translation.

Q. On the 4th of June 1992, did you have a meeting during which General Djukic called about who would be responsible for the salaries of officers in the VRS army?

A. Yes. During General Djukic's statement, assistant for logistics of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, he said among other things, and I noted it down literally, that the federal government regarding financing, that the federal government would finance this army, and he's referring to the Army of Republika Srpska, with the numerical strength as it was on the 19th of May, 1992, as stated on its account. The government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has taken a decision on the financing of military conscripts.

Q. Who was --

A. -- Through the account as stated on the 19th of May, 1992. ²²²²⁴

Q. Who was to be financially responsible for the pay due conscripts in the VRS army?

A. For military conscripts for Republika Srpska as of the head count of the 19th of May was the federal government, and above that number the Government of Republika Srpska. So any number in excess of the number of the 19th of May would be financed by them. And there were problems there because of the level of salaries between active-duty and reserve command officers, because active-duty officers had much higher salaries than reserve officers, and there was a lot of dissatisfaction. And this was discussed at meetings in the commands, and there was some political problems over this.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, you can help me with where we can find the statement by Djukic. I have page 4810, which seems to refer to the remarks of Djukic, but it would be helpful if we can find this in due course.

MR. GROOME: I believe it's on 4804, Your Honour -- I'm sorry 4803. And perhaps, Your Honour, over the break we could provide courtesy copies with that passage highlighted to the Chamber if that would be of assistance.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, that would be.

MR. GROOME: And I have our copy here, Your Honour. It is at the bottom of page 4803 where is says "General Djukic:" And it has his notes regarding that conversation.

Q. Mr. Selak, your testimony here today, are you reading verbatim of your notes or are you referring to your notes to refresh your recollection ²²²²⁵ about what General Djukic said at that meeting?

A. I wish to read exactly what I noted down at the meeting, and I did my best to note down everything. So can I read it verbatim, please? "Financing: The federal government shall finance this army according to the head count as of the 19th of May, 1992, that had previously been on its account. The government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has decided to finance military conscripts - difference," which means only the difference between the two.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that portion of what the witness just read is on the top of ERN ending 4804, and you can see "Financing:".

JUDGE MAY: I have it.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Now, Mr. Selak, you were still a commander after the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did there come a time when members of your command had to travel to Belgrade after the 19th of May to collect their salaries that they were due?

A. Yes. I would send the head of my financial service to Belgrade to collect salaries for officers and civilians employed in the logistics base. That is their monthly salaries.

Q. And did that procedure for obtaining the salaries, did that exist until the time that you left the service of the VRS as it was at that time?

A. Yes. And later on as well, because we received our pensions from ^{22226 BLANK PAGE 22227} Belgrade. Officers received their pensions from Belgrade as well. And salaries were received regularly throughout the war, because I had contacts with my colleagues in Banja Luka, active-duty officers who normally continued to receive their salaries. And there was this dispute between active-duty and reserve officers over the difference in their salaries.

Q. Mr. Selak, you've just referred to the salaries for civilians in your command also being received from Belgrade. My question to clarify that point is: Were all the civilians working in your command? Were they all paid from Belgrade?

A. All those employed in the Yugoslav People's Army and later in the Army of Republika Srpska who were on the payroll up until the 19th of May, 1992, continued to -- remained on the payroll of the Federal Secretariat of national defence in Belgrade. I had quite a number of civilians, mechanics, people working in the warehouses. In the command itself there were very many civilians employed who normally received their salaries in the same way they had done before.

Q. Perhaps to help us understand the magnitude of this payment, what would have happened if the payment -- all the payment that you were receiving from Belgrade for your employees, both military and civilian, what would have happened if that had ceased?

A. People would have no means of livelihood. They would have to find food in public canteens. They would get flour and bread, the essentials, but it's not just a question of salaries but also weapons, ammunition, fuel for tanks and planes. There would be a total break-up of logistics ²²²²⁸ support, and without logistics support, there can be no army.

Q. Would have you been able to operate your command without the support that it received from Belgrade after the official withdrawal of the JNA?

A. No, neither me nor anyone else. One cannot live from the air.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to a previously admitted exhibit, and it was Exhibit 427, tab 50. We have provided a courtesy copy to the Chamber and the parties here in the Court. In the English translation the portion that I'm going to draw the witness's attention to is ERN 01905597 or page 24 in the translation.

I'm going to read you a passage from the English translation of this document. It says: "After the opening after corridor towards the FRY and securing of basic and some consumer goods from that area, there was a positive effect on the overall combat readiness, reinforcement and the capability of units to carry out further tasks. During the year and particularly with the interruption of payments and the separation from the Yugoslav army in the period from May until the end of August, we experienced serious difficulties in getting supplies for combat and non-combat needs."

This reference to the corridor, is that a reference to the Posavina corridor, do you know?

A. Yes. The corridor going from Banja Luka, Doboj, Brcko, Bijeljina, Srpska Raca on the border with Serbia, and from there on to Belgrade. That is the corridor, the main artery for all the people of Bosnian Krajina, for the 1st Corps which used to be the 5th Corps. ²²²²⁹

Q. Can you explain to the Chamber what would have happened from a logistics point of view if the Posavina corridor, that artery as you have referred to it, had been severed for a significant period of time?

A. As a soldier, I am saying quite frankly I shudder at the thought. If I was a corps commander and base commander, I would not have been able to carry out my tasks. The units would not have fuel, ammunition, food, money to meet their regular needs for medicines, and everything else. So the unit would be totally cut off and its very survival would be called in question.

Q. In preparation for your testimony before the Chamber, did you assist members of the OTP staff in preparing two diagrams which illustrate the flow of logistics support both prior to the 18th of May, 1992, and after the 18th of May, 1992?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 464 tab 20.

Q. My question to you: Is this the diagram indicating the flow of logistics prior to the 18th of May, 1992?

MR. GROOME: Could I ask that it be placed on the ELMO. Your Honour, we have the English version on the sanction system, and we will have the B/C/S version on the ELMO so the witness can refer to it during his testimony. The B/C/S version, please, on the ELMO.

Q. Mr. Selak, could I ask you to take the pointer on the desk in front of you?

MR. GROOME: And if I could ask the director to zoom out a little ²²²³⁰ bit so we can see the entire diagram. Thank you.

Q. Now, Mr. Selak, can I ask you to do this in a systematic way? Can I first draw your attention to the box labelled "JNA General Staff."

A. I can't hear. Could you please repeat your question? I couldn't hear it. I didn't hear your question.

Q. Okay. The B/C/S version is now on the ELMO in front of you, so when you point to something, the rest of us will be able to see it. I'd ask you to do this in a systematic way. Can you begin with the box indicating "General Staff" and then just explain to us how the logistics structure of the JNA operated prior to May 18th, 1992.

A. In the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army, there was a logistics administration which engaged in logistics matters for the Yugoslav People's Army. The head of the logistics administration in those days was Lieutenant Colonel Vladan Sljivic. The direct link from the logistics administration towards the command of the 2nd Military District went to the assistant commander for logistics of the 2nd Military District, Major General Ratko Milicevic. The command of the 2nd Military District or, rather, Major General Ratko Milicevic was in command of all the basis that were subordinated to him. There were four of them in those days in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm now pointing the -- to the Logistics Base in Banja Luka which I was the commander. I -- it was my duty and responsibility to logistically supply the entire Banja Luka Corps. It was the 1st Corps. The 2nd Corps near Bihac and other units in the territory and area of responsibility of the Banja Luka Logistics Base. ²²²³¹

Q. Mr. Selak, the line connecting the 5th corps command with your logistics base, the 993rd rear service base, what does that line indicate?

A. This line marks the competence of the rear base logistically supplying the corps, for the corps to submit its requests for logistics supplies to the logistics base, and then the logistics base in Banja Luka, if it is unable to resolve the problem on its own, informs the commander of the 2nd Military District of the same, which can solve the problem with resources from other bases. If it is unable to do so, it will send the request to the logistics administration of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence in Belgrade which will deal with it for the whole territory of Yugoslavia or addressing itself to certain work organisations or companies that were manufacturing supplies for the needs of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Mr. Selak, the line connecting your service base with the 2nd Military District Command, does that represent the channel from which -- or through which you communicated your logistical needs on a macro-level, which you then in turn distributed to the 5th Corps and other units that made requests of you?

A. They were passed on to other units. And there were daily direct contacts between the corps and the base. So there was no need for any interference regarding logistics supplies between the base and the corps. They had direct links. Only if the problem could not be resolved, then the 2nd Military District Command could interfere. And they were responsible both for the 5th Corps and the logistics base.

MR. GROOME: If I could ask now that Prosecution Exhibit 21 of 464 ²²²³² be placed on the ELMO, the B/C/S version. I would also ask that Exhibit 20 be left with the witness in case he needs to refer to it. Mr. Usher, this is an exhibit that we need to have placed on the ELMO now, and that is tab 21 of 464.

Q. Mr. Selak, does this next diagram represent the flow of logistics after the JNA officially withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. Yes.

Q. Can I ask you rather than going over the structure again, can you point out to the Chamber what changes came into place after the JNA withdrew?

A. The changes after the withdrawal of the JNA were that the command of the 2nd Military District was disbanded and the Army of Republika Srpska was formed, the commander of which was Colonel General Ratko Mladic. And his assistant for logistics was Major General Djordje Djukic. The 2nd Krajina Corps was formed. I'm talking about my zone of logistic responsibility. And we provided logistic supplies for the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina that was in the territory of Croatia. That is the 1st and 2nd operational groups.

Also, the bases changed their numbers. They acquired new locations, new places of deployment so that the 27th Logistics Base which used to be the Sarajevo base which was in town was relocated to Pale, Republika Srpska, where the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was also headquartered.

The 30th logistic base in Bilici, this was a newly formed base --

Q. Mr. Selak, in the interests of time, the Chamber will have this ²²²³³ diagram to study it more carefully. Could I draw your attention to a few particular points of it that I would ask you -- or seek your comment on. The first is you have a thick line between the VJ General Staff and the VRS command. Can you please comment on that relationship.

A. That was the relationship that had existed -- existed before too. That is the General Staff of Yugoslavia was competent for the Army of Republika Srpska regarding many questions of control and command as well as logistics support.

Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the line connecting the 14th rear service base, the renamed base that you were commander of, and the line that connects that to the technical administration base of the VJ and Commander Colonel Milisav Brkic. Can you describe what that line connecting your base and this direct VJ administration base, what does that line indicate?

A. This dotted line means that there were daily direct personal contacts between officers of the technical service in the logistic base in Banja Luka and the technical administration base in Belgrade, the commander of which was Colonel Milisav Brkic who used to be the head of the technical service of the military district in Sarajevo. We communicated regularly by phone. I had his telephone number, and my assistants in this service would regularly have contacts with him to shorten the time needed to provide various technical supplies, because administration is slow, it takes time. So Brkic would write instructions to a subordinate unit to issue the materiel we're asking for so that the unit should be provided with the required materiel in time. ²²²³⁴

Q. I'd like now to ask you some questions on a different topic. During the course of 1992 to mid-May of 1995, did you have occasion to call General Djukic, who is a member of the VRS army, in Pale?

A. Yes. General Djukic and I were comrades and friends. We were together at the military academy. He was two years my senior. He was at Pale, assistant commander of the Army of Republika Srpska for logistics.

Q. The party I would like to ask you to focus on is was there anything unusual about the phone number at which you used to contact Major General Djukic, member of the VRS army in Pale in Bosnia? Was there anything unusual about that phone number?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that?

A. General Djukic had the call-up number 011. This surprised me when I first learnt it, and I have this number in my agenda. I was surprised to hear a Belgrade area code, because 011 is the Belgrade area code, and this was the area code that was later used by General Ratko Mladic as well.

Q. Drawing your attention to General Ratko Mladic, did you have occasion on April or early May of 1995 to contact him regarding a personal matter? And it's not important that you go into substance of the personal matter.

A. Yes.

Q. And what was -- was there anything unusual about his phone number?

A. Again, it started with the area code 011, which means it is the area code for Belgrade. ²²²³⁵

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the subject matter of convoys to Belgrade. During the time after the withdrawal of the JNA but before you left your post, were you aware of convoys that were going between Bosnia and Serbia bringing back and forth logistical supplies?

A. Yes. My logistics base would regularly send convoys of trucks and tank trucks for fuel towards Serbia and Belgrade where the technical administration would indicate where we would collect what and drive it to the territory of the logistics base in Banja Luka, that is, to my warehouse.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I may be moving, so quickly -- I apologise for not giving you paragraph numbers of the witness summary. I'm now dealing with paragraph 68.

Q. Can you describe in general terms -- I will talk about some specific examples or ask you to address some specific examples after the break, but prior to the break can I ask you to describe in general terms the types of vehicles that were used in these convoys and the approximate number of convoys in an average convoy?

A. The types of vehicles were trucks with trailers, covered with tarpaulin of course, tank trucks for fuel. The columns would consist of 45 to 50 vehicles, sometimes more, but these were not only for the needs of the army but also for the needs of citizens. I'm talking about Banja Luka now, because there was a problem of food shortages. So I allowed my convoys to include 10 or 15 vehicles for the transportation of oil, sugar, flour and other foodstuffs. Combat security of the column was provided by the corps in Banja Luka with APCs that went in front and at ²²²³⁶ the end of the column. They secured the column around Brcko and Bijeljina to protect it from any possible difficulties. This was regularly done while I was the commander of the base, and as I was saying, this corridor was the life artery for life -- enabling life in these areas.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place before --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. How much longer do you think you might be, Mr. Groome?

MR. GROOME: Fifteen minutes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Fifteen minutes. Very well. Mr. Selak, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes' break. Could you please remember in this break and any others there may be in your evidence not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I continue, I realise that I've been moving rather quickly through rather large volumes of documents. If it's of assistance to the Court and the other parties and the amici, I have asked Mr. Kerr next to me to provide a copy of those pages in those large documents which we've specifically referred to with the section highlighted. He will have them in advance of the cross-examination or as soon thereafter as the cross-examination begins.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. ²²²³⁷

MR. GROOME:

Q. Mr. Selak, we concluded the first session this morning with you discussing convoys. You gave rather extensive testimony in Brdjanin and Talic, and for the record I would point to transcript page numbers 13111 to 3115 where you discussed using a war diary of the 1st Krajina Corps about convoys that were going back and forth between the 1st Krajina Corps and Belgrade; is that correct? Do you recall testifying on that subject in Brdjanin and Talic?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that same war diary, and that is for the record Prosecution Exhibit 463, tab 24, or Prosecution Exhibit 1590 to use the Brdjanin and Talic designation. Did you have an opportunity to review portions of that war diary earlier this week?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you recall seeing an entry in that diary from the 7th of July, 1992, describing a convoy of 15 trucks being dispatched to Belgrade to get logistical supplies for the 1st Krajina Corps?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: For the record, the B/C/S ERN number of that page is 01304553 and the English is L0088327.

Q. Did you also see another entry referring to a convoy on the 9th of July 1992 discussing 45 trucks in a convoy --

A. Yes.

Q. And for the record the B/C/S is 01304559 and the English L0088334. Now, I have one more question with respect to convoys. Was there ²²²³⁸ a document that travelled with the convoy detailing the materials or the supplies that were contained or being transported in the convoy?

A. Yes. Along with the convoy there had to be all the prescribed documents stipulating the type and quantity of material being transferred to Belgrade and from Belgrade towards Banja Luka for the corps.

Q. And was the purpose of that document, in part, in the event that the convoy was stopped so it could demonstrate or show what exactly it was carrying?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter asks Mr. Groome to slow down when he gives ERN numbers thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document clearly stating who the supplier of the goods is and who the goods are being sent to with a signature and a stamp.

Q. And what is the name of this document that accompanies the convoy?

A. The official document was referred to as the materijalni lista or materiel list or bill of lading which was used for the issuance of the materiel and equipment and the reception of it at the other end.

MR. GROOME: I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 22. It is a document dated the 9th of July, 1992.

Q. Mr. Selak, have you had an opportunity to read this document prior -- after coming to Holland but before testifying here today?

A. Yes.

Q. The document is authored by a Colonel Vaso Tepsic? Did you know Colonel Vaso Tepsic?

A. Yes. ²²²³⁹

Q. And I want to draw your attention -- this is a document concerning logistical matters. I want to draw your attention to the second paragraph under number 3, and if I could ask you to read the portion that begins with "The commodities from RO Incel..." If you could read that sentence for us, please.

A. Point 3 of the order, and I quote: "On the 9th of July, 1992, the motor vehicles shall be dispatched to the work organisation Incel" - let me explain that is the cellulosis paper factory of Banja Luka - "by 1600 hours to load 100 tonnes of toilet paper. The motor vehicles shall spend the night in the Incel work organisation. On the 10th of July, 1992, at 0630 hours, the motor vehicles shall be collected at the work organisation of Incel, refuelled at the Kozara barracks" - which is in Banja Luka, that's my explanation - "and shall set off for Belgrade at 0700 hours. "The commodities from the work organisation of Incel shall be delivered according to the delivery order in Belgrade. The senior officer of the group shall be responsible for the delivery and shall organise the handover of the technical equipment and materiel, the TMS, for military post 4022 Banja Luka in Belgrade," and that is the corps command, my explanation.

Q. Mr. Selak --

A. -- "and shall take them to Banja Luka."

Q. -- Can you please explain what types of materiel that would make up TMS, what's referred to as TMS in this document?

A. Technical equipment and materiel, TMS, refers to ammunition, weapons, spare parts, fuel, oil and lubrication for vehicles, et cetera. ²²²⁴⁰ So technical material, not construction material and the like.

Q. Can you --

A. Medical supplies and so on.

Q. Can you in a sentence or two based on your experience as a logistics commander interpret what is being discussed or described in this document?

A. This document is about vehicles and says that vehicles from the corps units shall be driven to Belgrade and that empty vehicles going to Belgrade should be used to take from the paper factory 100 tons of toilet paper. But on the return journey that they should pick up materiel and equipment from the units of the Yugoslav People's Army on the territory of Yugoslavia or, rather, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to a different document, and this is Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 23. You have been handed the original document. Have you had a chance to read this document prior to testifying this morning?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to ask you some specific questions regarding this document. First of all, can you tell us the date of this document?

A. The date on the document is - just a moment, please. Yes - the 28th of May, 1993.

Q. Who is this document addressed to?

A. The document is addressed to the person of General Momir Talic. Momir Talic, the corps commander.

Q. And he was the commander of what corps in May of 1993? ^{22241 BLANK PAGE 22242}

A. The 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. And does the sender of this fax or this correspondence indicate a fax number where they can be reached, and if so, what can you tell us about the location of the fax based on the number?

A. This number is the fax number in Belgrade, the area code 011, 763/653.

Q. And does this letter regard logistical supplies in specifically D2 diesel oil and other motor oil products?

A. Yes, it does. It explains the ways in which requests should be tabled for it to be authorised in Belgrade, a request as -- made as "humanitarian aid" for the needs of the Banja Luka region. Fuel 1.000 tons of D-2 fuel, et cetera.

Q. Mr. Selak, can I ask you to read the first sentence of this letter?

A. "General, today I was informed at the Federal Administration for Commodity Reserves by the Deputy Manager Nedjo Bodiroga, that all provision of goods in the Republika Srpska can be issued only upon a decision by the FRY government and only as humanitarian aid."

Q. And then can I draw your attention to the second paragraph. Could I ask you to read the last sentence of the second paragraph.

A. "I suggest that Mr. Radic should table a request to the Yugoslav government for humanitarian aid for the needs of the Banja Luka region."

Q. Mr. Selak, my apologies. It's the paragraph after that. Could I draw your attention to the last sentence in that paragraph.

A. I see. "In addition to the other goods, I should like to also ²²²⁴³ mention 1.000 tons of D-2 and certain quantities of motor fuel MB-86 octane or 98 octanes."

Q. Mr. Selak, I will read a particular sentence for you and I would ask you to find it on your copy. The sentence I'm reading begins with, and I quote, "It shouldn't be mentioned that this is for the needs of the army and it will be the way you agree." Can you find that portion on the original in front of you? Have you been able to find it?

A. Yes, yes, that's clear. I've found it.

Q. My question to you is --

A. Can I read it out? Shall I read it out?

Q. It's okay. My question to you is: Does this letter indicate that at least in May of 1993, military supplies, in this particular case of diesel oil and other motor oil products, had to be authorised by the FRY government before being given to the RS and they had to be disguised as humanitarian aid? Is that a correct conclusion from the reading of this letter?

A. Yes. Yes. That is my conclusion.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, would the witness be able to identify the author of this letter?

MR. GROOME:

Q. Can I ask you to answer Judge Kwon's query if you're able?

A. The signature here is that of Colonel Zudic or Budic. However, General Talic wrote up in the right-hand corner "Amidzic." He is Colonel Amidzic, assistant for logistics, because the other Colonel was killed. So Bosko Amidzic replaced him and Talic is writing to him, to Amidzic. ²²²⁴⁴ Amidzic has to go to Radic, and reach an agreement, and Radic is president of the municipality of Banja Luka.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Now, Mr. Selak, I'd like to once again ask you to refer to your work notebook. And if I could draw your attention to your notebook back again to the 4th of June, 1992. And on the 4th of June, 1992, did you make a note regarding requirements for materiel that General Djukic had advised you of, those requirements to be fulfilled by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

And for the record, the ERN number is 01104811.

A. May I begin?

Q. Yes. Are you able to find your notes regarding --

A. Yes, I am able to. Yes, yes, I've found it. General Djukic at the meeting with the -- Radic, president of the municipality, in his speech Djukic, in addition to other things, stipulated that we should draw up a specification of the materiel from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Q. And did General Djukic indicate the chain or the path that such requests to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had to take?

A. Yes. The requests were to pass through the usual channels, through the command and Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and then it was sent on to Belgrade from them to the General Staff of the Army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in fact.

Q. Can I draw your attention to the 15th of June, 1992. Do you have ²²²⁴⁵ entries in your work notebook with respect to a meeting with General Momir Talic? And the ERN number is 01104823.

A. Yes. On the 15th of June, 1992, there was reporting to the 1st Krajina Corps commander with respect to logistical support, and on that occasion, General Talic said that the transport of materiel should go from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that that should be organised, transport from the FRY, and that is what I stipulate in my diary or, rather, work notebook.

Q. And did you note or is there any note that you've made that indicates the size or quantity of the supplies that were being requested by Momir Talic?

A. Yes. I mention here 66 types of ammunition which was critical. We needed those supplies. Seventy-five types of ammunition. Also we were running out of those. There were not enough generators, tyres, tarpaulins for vehicles, spare parts, and expendable material. And then there was a shortage of certain foodstuffs and that all this was being requested via the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the replenishment and resupplies.

Q. And finally could I draw your attention to the 5th of July, 1992. Do you have notes in your workbook or your notebook with respect to the same issue of supplies being requested and received from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? And I'd ask you just to answer yes or no to that question.

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interests of time I won't go into the detail of that, and again we'll provide a courtesy copy with the ²²²⁴⁶ translation highlighted.

Q. Mr. Selak, my final question to you is a matter that I began to ask you early on in your testimony and it is with respect to General Uzelac and -- about a request from him to you to dispense weapons. Do you recall that portion of your testimony?

A. Could you repeat the question, please? General Uzelac -- what did you say.

Q. Do you recall earlier today I asked you about -- did you ever receive an order from him or request from him to dispense weapons which you determined were in violation of JNA regulations?

A. Yes. General Uzelac, I think it was in November 1991, asked me, as assistant -- he sent assistant logistics commander to my office and asked me to issue weapons to the Territorial Defence of Mrkonjic Grad, Sipovo, and for the 5th Kozara Brigade.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I didn't have the reference before --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Prijedor.

Q. Mr. Selak, I'm going to read a portion of an exhibit previously tendered, and it is an intercept dated the 8th of July, 1991, between the accused Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic. It was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 353, tab 31, and it was referred to in transcript --

JUDGE MAY: Not yet. Not yet admitted.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Marked for identification, Your Honour. And it referred to transcript 13.340 to 45.

Q. I'm going to read a small portion of that transcript of that intercept and ask you if this relates -- the matter that's being discussed ²²²⁴⁷ here relates to the request that you received from General Uzelac. And this is Mr. Karadzic speaking: "Yes. That's underway. But tell me, can we arrange the same thing, that they give me back the armament of the TO in Sipovo and Mrkonjic Grad?" Mr. Milosevic: "That's a small matter." Mr. Karadzic: "All right. Let them arm them there. Here I've got 170 ready in Mrkonjic and 150 in Sipovo and they are ready to go to Kupres." Milosevic: "Is Uzelac also in charge of that?" Karadzic: "No, no. This is -- er I think that is him, yes, yes." Milosevic: "Tell him that brother, no problems." Karadzic: "All right." And finally Mr. Milosevic: "We cannot discuss every small detail like this." Based upon your later interaction with Mr. Uzelac, does this conversation relate to the request made by General Uzelac to you?

A. Yes. That was precisely it.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, a moment ago Mr. Groome said quite rightly that he went through all this great number of documents very quickly, and indeed he did. As you can see, I received here this morning some transcripts and the various tabs which were just skimmed through. I wish to draw attention to the fact that it is absolutely impossible for me to cross-examine this witness in the course of today. That's --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's quite obvious. Let me put it quite simply. ²²²⁴⁸

JUDGE MAY: We have considered the position, the time taken by the Prosecution. We've also considered the fact that this witness has given evidence before in transcript form now before us. So bearing all those matters in mind, you've got three hours starting from now, which will indeed take you into tomorrow.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think three hours will be sufficient, but if that's your decision and ruling, I have nothing to do with that. It's up to you to decide.

MR. GROOME: I will just note for the record that the transcripts were provided at the beginning of March.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Selak, you spoke about the corridor, and you said that it was the lifeline for those parts, the main artery; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me roughly now, please, how many inhabitants were there living west of Brcko?

A. West of Brcko in my assessment and according to the 1991 population census, there were about 800.000 to 1 million people.

Q. Right. A million people living west of Brcko.

A. Including Doboj.

Q. All right. Fine. So that -- and it was just this corridor that served to supply this 1 million inhabitants. If you add to that the inhabitants of the Republic of Srpska Krajina which had no other ²²²⁴⁹ connection or links with the rest of the country at all, that was the sole lifeline too?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So that was the only lifeline and connection which supplied the population with what they needed to survive, this 1 million, 2 or 300.000 people living in that part. That's right, is it?

A. With the exception of the requirements for combat, ammunition and weapons, and all the other things the army needed. So it wasn't only a question of food. The question of food wasn't the only problem.

Q. Do you mean to say that there was sufficient food and medicines and clothing and oil and fuel, not to mention all the other requirements? So that wasn't the problem according to you. It was just weapons and ammunition that were the problem.

A. I didn't say that food was not a problem, because in my convoy, sir, I always included vehicles transporting food, because I was well aware of the problem and that we ought to solve it in humanitarian terms.

Q. Yes. So that's what it's all about. The sole link through which life was ensured and the survival of these people, and as I say there were about 100 -- 1.300.000 inhabitants was in fact this corridor, this lifeline and connections with Yugoslavia. Now, were they able to receive aid and assistance from anybody else? Could supplies come in from anybody else?

A. Well, there was no policy -- had policies and politics been different, there could have been other corridors and communications.

Q. Yes. I do agree. If the policy wasn't what it was, had there not ²²²⁵⁰ been a war, had there not been an armed secession, then none of that would have been necessary.

Now, tell me this, as you're well acquainted with that: So this sole corridor through which supplies came in and through which the survival of 1.300.000 persons depended upon, how many different corridors were in existence which you in Bosnia-Herzegovina used to supply yourselves from Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Western countries and so on? Do you have any knowledge of --

JUDGE MAY: No. Before we go into this kind of polemic, the witness can only deal with the area in which he was responsible. Did you receive any support from outside, and a number of countries are mentioned such as Turkey, Iran, et cetera? Did you receive any supplies from them?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single pfennig. Not a single kilogramme of oil or anything else, Your Honours.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, that will be easy to demonstrate. But we don't have to do that with this witness.

Now, to save time, I should like to move on. Of course I can't do it as quickly as Mr. Groome did, but anyway, I shall go through the tabs. But this passage through the tabs, let me start by quoting one that Mr. Groome omitted, probably unintentionally, but it was tab 18, in fact. He skipped that one.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the documents as they're referred to. Tab 18. Yes. ²²²⁵¹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Take a look at this then, please. It is addressed to -- the last sentence says -- the last sentence of the document is, as you can see, "inform all members of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina about the contents of this report in the most suitable way." Isn't that right, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes.

Q. So all the members of the Army of Republika Srpska are being informed of the contents of the document.

Now, let's go back to the first page. The date on that is 21st of May, 1992. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes.

Q. And the text begins with the following words: "On the basis of the decision on the withdrawal of the JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a major transformation of the army has taken place. All members of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia have left the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, while officers and soldiers born in this republic have returned to the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and joined the armed forces." Is that right?

A. That's what it says in this document, yes.

Q. However, Colonel Vukelic who is the signatory for the commander for moral guidance for the 1st Krajina Corps did not have the right to write this last sentence that you quoted because he could have informed only members of the 1st Krajina Corps of the contents and not all the members of the Army of Republika Srpska. That wasn't under his ²²²⁵² competence.

Mr. Selak, even if that is so --

A. Yes, that is so.

Q. Everything refers to the Army of Republika Srpska. Now, whether he had the right to do so, whether he was authorised by somebody to dispatch this to whom he did, you don't know that and that's not the essential point either. What is essential is what is written here in the document.

A. Yes. But not all the members of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia left the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the territory. Just a small portion. So this is not correct.

Q. All I'm asking you about, Mr. Selak, is what it says in the document. Now, all the things that are incorrect in documents that you commented on here, we'll come to that due course. Does it go on to say under number 1 there is an explanation saying that the countries of the European Community have interfered, the so-called German bloc, which have had centuries-long aspirations to dominate these areas and which have, because of this, waged two world wars unsuccessfully. In their estimation, this is a suitable time to achieve the centuries-old aspirations, to create many tiny, dwarfish mini-states in these areas which would be very suitable for all kinds of manipulation and dependency. Is that right, Mr. Selak?

A. That is what it says in the document.

Q. Of course you don't agree with that.

A. No, I don't. ²²²⁵³

Q. Very well. One of these mini-states was to have been Bosnia and Herzegovina in which all key issues would remain unresolved especially relations between the constituent peoples, and those unresolved relations and the violence that was resorted to, did that provoke the civil war, Mr. Selak?

A. Your Honours, this document was written by Colonel Vukelic who was born in Serbia, assistant for moral guidance, and as such a document it is addressed to the soldiers with the aim of politically influenced them.

Q. Mr. Selak, that is what it says here.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just help us with this. What was the role of the officer for moral guidance? What was his position in one of these units.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, his position was assistant corps commander for moral guidance. So he would see to raise the morale of the officers and soldiers of the corps. And this document is indicative of this, to explain the aims of the battle and what it is they are to achieve, what are their goals right down to the lowest-level troops.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. If it says what it says here, we will have in mind your explanation. So you can simply agree with what it says. I mean, don't agree with the sentiments, but agree that that is what the document says.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a document which Mr. Groome ²²²⁵⁴ submitted here, only he didn't quote from it. It's not my document.

JUDGE MAY: I think we better clarify that. Some records appear to indicate that the Prosecution were no longer relying on this document. Even if that's so, it maybe convenient simply to retain it in the bundle and give it the same document number.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. In the interests of time, I withdrew it yesterday evening, but I have no absolutely no objection to it being retained.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll reinstate it and we'll do that with any other documents if they're referred to which were in the bundle. Yes. We'll reinstate that one. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, thank you very much.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In point 2, does it go on to say: "In such conditions, the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia found themselves in the most difficult situation even though the oldest and a constituent people they are exposed to unscrupulous deprivation of their rights, transformation into a national minority and genocide. The Serbian people neither could nor wanted to accept such humiliation and loss of rights. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian people have organised themselves politically and are firmly resolved to struggle alone to secure their historical right, national dignity and interests." Is that what it says, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me leave out some of this to save time. On page 2, having ²²²⁵⁵ previously explained where the Serbian people live in Bosnia it says: "They do not want anything that is not theirs and has not been theirs for centuries but will not cede to anyone an inch of their territory. The peace-loving Serbian people primarily care about peace, a peaceful and just solution to all disputes in this areas. That is why its political leadership, bodies and institutions are persistently initiating negotiations on a peaceful separation."

You know very well that the Cutileiro plan was signed by all three parties, aren't you?

A. Yes. There were negotiations.

Q. Very well. Then -- and signed. It also says that after the proclamation of the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina it still wasn't called Republika Srpska. It was called the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the constitution of its state bodies, the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed as an armed force of the Serbian people. Then that there was the Main Staff, that Lieutenant Colonel Ratko Mladic has been appointed commander, and so on. And then in the following paragraph, please follow: "The uniform of the JNA has been retained, which we otherwise have at our disposal," as they had no other.

In the one but last paragraph in the last sentence it says, please follow: "This army is struggling for truth, freedom, a fatherland for the survival of its people, for peace and progress, and that is why its behaviour toward its own people and the enemy has to be dignified and chivalrous and dignified." Now, please, I draw attention to the last ^{22256 BLANK PAGE 22257} paragraph. "It will defend its own people from all dangers and assist it. It will hit at the enemy, an armed struggled, whereas captured and wounded members of the enemy, as well as the civilian population, will be treated in a soldierly, civilised and humane manner in keeping with the norms of international laws of war. That is why all levels of command and control must be engaged most energetically in building up the moral and combat image of our members and must implement all available measures to curb any possible incidents of conduct that could tarnish the dignity and reputation of that image."

Is that so, Mr. Selak?

A. That is what is written there. But they behaved differently.

Q. There is no doubt that there were individuals who behaved differently, but this was the approach that the Army of Republika Srpska adopted in the struggle that was being waged on the territory of the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that so or not?

A. No. That was not the approach, because 280.000 victims were not killed by individuals but the army, paramilitary organisations, and volunteer units. This was written with a different intention, but actions differed from words. More than 60.000 people were moved out or killed or detained in camps, and I am talking about Prijedor alone, the responsibility of the Banja Luka Corps, not to mention others.

Q. Very well, Mr. Selak. We will certainly come to those matters. In Serbia at one point in time there was 1 million refugees. I don't know who they had fled from and why. Among them, of course, 50.000 Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina who were treated on an equal footing ²²²⁵⁸ with others, as you know.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've been told before. You're asking questions now, not making statements. If you want to give evidence, you can do so in due course.

No need, Mr. Selak, to respond to that. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In order to make the most efficient use of the time available to me, I will now cover several other tabs. I started with number 18, as I said. In tab 1, the personal particulars are given, your personal particulars. I won't read out all of this.

You were promoted to the rank of colonel in 1986, commander of the Logistics Base 993. Then in March 1992, chief of the liaison group for contacts between UNPROFOR and the JNA. That is what it says. And then it says on the 19th of May, 1992, you applied for retirement from the service of the JNA. That is the information that you provided.

A. Yes. And I have those documents, the originals of those documents, in my briefcase.

Q. I believe you, but you explained that you were thrown out of the JNA, and here it says that you submitted a request for retirement.

A. You didn't understand me. I was replaced from the position of the chief of the liaison group for contacts between UNPROFOR and JNA in April 1992, and I again became commander of the logistics base in Banja Luka. ²²²⁵⁹ And it was from that position that on the 19th of May I submitted a request for retirement.

Do I need to repeat that?

Q. Who was the chief of the liaison between UNPROFOR and the JNA and whether that was replacement or reassignment, you were commander of the logistics base, and you went back to take up that same duty. So I assume you were temporarily appointed chief of the liaison group, because that usually is not a job performed by an officer from the logistics area but, rather, from the information administration or another administration.

A. No, Your Honours. There were three groups for cooperation with UNPROFOR. The first group was in Belgrade, a second in Sarajevo, and a third in Banja Luka. I have in my briefcase the original document on my appointment as chief of that group, and it doesn't say that it was a temporary appointment but that I was appointed chief of the group, being in the 7th payroll group. And I was there for about one month and ten days. I have the document in my briefcase, Your Honours, and if you wish, I can show it to you.

Q. Does it say in the document when you were sent back to the logistics base that you were replaced or re-appointed to the same job?

A. No. It says because there was no longer any need for my engagement in the group for cooperation with the UN that I should return to take up my former position of commander of the logistics base.

Q. There's nothing discriminatory in that?

A. No. It doesn't say so. But in the Tribunal, there is a document in which General Vukelic, the commander of the Banja Luka Corps, in March, ²²²⁶⁰ requests that because of political unsuitability I should not be appointed to this position of chief of liaison with the UNPROFOR. I had this document in my hands in the Brdjanin trial.

Q. Very well. And then on the 10th of July you went on leave, and on the 1st of October, your retirement was accepted. I'm just reading from your own information, not any documents of my own. That your request for retirement was accepted on the 1st of October, 1992.

A. Yes. I have all the original documents here. I can show them.

Q. I'm not doubting any of this. You yourself submitted a request for retirement. Then you asked to go on leave, and your request that you submitted was accepted. So there's nothing abnormal. No one threw you out of the JNA.

A. No, they didn't, but the implication was that I was no longer suitable, because the corps commander held meetings with his assistants for half an hour and only then would I be called in so that I wouldn't hear what they had discussed before I joined them.

Q. So as not to go into marginal issues, Mr. Groome quoted from a document from tab 2 in which the republican staff of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo, it is the 23rd of April, 1990, orders the district and Municipal Staff to collect weaponry and place it under the control of the JNA; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you explain why this was done?

A. The withdrawal of the weapons from TO units throughout Yugoslavia started at the end of 1990 by decision of the Assembly of the SFRY. ²²²⁶¹ Slovenia would not agree to it. Partially, Croatia didn't either. However, Bosnia returned everything to warehouses. And the commander of the republican staff issued an order for the weapons to be transferred to JNA warehouses, and if JNA has control over it, then it is known to whom they would be issued.

Q. Now, whether that was known or not is your own conclusion, but what you have here, you have also tab 3 which Mr. Groome did not quote from. I don't know whether he withdrew that one too, but it relates to the same matter. Please look at tab 3. And it is in response to a question of a member of parliament in the Assembly of Serbia. And the delegate or member of parliament made a question, and the corresponding ministry has to provide an answer. And here he's quoted, and it says: "As we have learnt at the federal level, a decision has been taken to abolish the Territorial Defence. Pursuant to that decision, weapons and war materiel have been withdrawn from the warehouses of factories and local communes. Thus the people were disarmed; it was until a few days ago we used to say, 'we are the army.'

"My question is: Where are the weapons and what will happen to us now that we do not have the concept of All People's Defence? How shall we resolve these issues?

"What to do, where and how, if a rifle is shot from somebody's shoulder at marked Serbian houses?"

So a deputy in the parliament of the Republic of Serbia is putting this question precisely because an identical procedure is being carried out in Serbia, weapons taken and placed in JNA warehouses. And then we ²²²⁶² have the answer.

Is it clear and was it clear to you at least in those days, Mr. Selak, that this was also done in Serbia? So not just in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was a decision of the federal authorities, and it was implemented as you see. It fully coincides which you yourself said occurred in Serbia. The same applied to the Republic of Serbia. Are you aware of that?

A. The weapons were relocated by the Yugoslav army, later distributed it to members of only one ethnic group, as has been proven through a host of documents available in the Tribunal.

Q. We'll come to that too, as you have information regarding these minor distortions which throw a completely different light on the matter, but we'll come to that.

Mr. Groome also referred to tab number 4 containing the conclusions regarding the assessment of the situation, and he insisted that you read out the date. This was addressed by the commander of the 2nd Military District, Milutin Kukanjac. And he also speaks about the situation on the ground under (a). "Krajina (without Eastern Slavonia)," as that was not the area of responsibility of the 2nd Military District, he says: "According to reliable information, gradually and very persistently," and this was the situation on the 19th of March, 1992, he takes -- "the moderate elements, the leadership recently constituted in Vukovar, is taking the initiative," that is, the leadership of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

And then he says that, "The new authorities are working on ousting ²²²⁶³ Milan Babic from the office of President of Knin municipality." You know that the problem with Babic occurred precisely because he refused to accept the Vance Plan, and the majority in the Assembly of the Republic of Serbian Krajina supported it as is the -- as did the leadership of Serbia, supported that plan.

And he says here that, "The behaviour of Milan Babic and his supporters could cause certain problems during the transfer of territory between our forces and the UN forces and the withdrawal of our forces." However, he doesn't believe it will cause any major problems. Then he speaks about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. With respect to Krajina, did Milutin Kukanjac give a correct description of the situation as it was at the time?

A. I cannot talk about the political situation in the so-called Serbian Krajinas. I went there only officially to tour the units. But I can't talk about the political situation, and I don't want to make any mistakes.

Q. Very well. But this is a document that has been tendered through you. So please -- please note under (b) he says that in the federal republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, "The situation is virtually dramatic, especially in Herzegovina (Mostar, Capljina), around Bosanski Brod, Travnik, and some others. Polarisation along national lines is increasingly evident. Interethnic hatred in all spheres of life is increasingly more obvious. All this has an inescapable effect on members of the army and the options of individuals, especially in the ranks of the Muslims." ²²²⁶⁴ And then he says: "Regardless of statements on the need for cooperation and tolerance, the national parties are drawing increasingly further apart. This is the characteristic of the Serbian Democratic Party and the Party of Democratic Action."

So he is saying that these parties are drifting further away from one another. He's not taking anyone's side in that situation.

A. You could explain it that way. However, the second part of the document says other things, gives other instructions and guidelines in that same document.

Q. Let's go to the end of the document.

A. Yes, I agree we should go to the end of the document because it says that under the European Community talks that several important points have come to the fore. And he says: "First, Alija Izetbegovic, the SDA party, Party of Democratic Action, most Muslims are negotiating and believe that an independent sovereign Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina will be created under their auspices in which they would play dominant role. Second, the Serbian people have opted for Yugoslavia," it says, "and if they can't have this then the only consideration is a confederal Bosnia-Herzegovina, which means a respect for all three nations living in Bosnia-Herzegovina which would then be a separate state but a confederal one, along confederal lines."

And then he says the third variance simply does not exist. Simply there is no third variant. And "Third, the Croatian people and their party, the HDZ," that's the following paragraph, "are advocating albeit cautiously a confederal Bosnia-Herzegovina; in practice, the Croatians ²²²⁶⁵ have done much for this option. Their advocacy for the unit -- for a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina is more formal in nature. Such behaviour is more indicative of Muslim/Croatian coalition against the Serbs rather than a realistic option." Is that true and correct, Mr. Selak.

A. Well, you're reading all this from the document quite correctly.

Q. All right. Fine. And then he goes on to say under 4 that he had a visit from Cutileiro and that Cutileiro said that all sides are at starting positions and that he wants to hear the opinions of the commander, and he presented him with those views. And so on and so forth. And he says, "two facts are quite evident: First, that the Serbs are satisfied and second, that the document," and he's referring to the Cutileiro plan, "are interpreted with so much variety that nothing is clear any longer." Is that what it says?

A. That's what the document says.

Q. And then he goes on to speak about the situation in the field and the JNA, and he says, "The relationship of the HDZ towards the JNA is growing more antagonistic by the day." Then he goes on to say that there is reference to a "so-called 'Yugo army' that brutally murdered Croats and destroyed houses." And then he goes on to quote under quotations, "'That is a Serbo-Chetnik army.' And that one gets the impression that any talks of the possibility of the army remaining in the Croatian areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina and some kind of cooperation simply does not stand a chance given the present situation." Is that right?

A. Yes. But the army did stay on to the strength of four corps of the Army of Republika Srpska. ²²²⁶⁶

Q. Then he goes on to say "the role of the army" -- and anyway, I read out to you the piece of information saying that the Army of Republika Srpska was established.

A. That's what I'm saying.

Q. That it was made up of the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina just like the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina made up the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- was made up of them that is to say that is the Muslims?

A. Yes, but the Serb army received 20 tanks, 1.018 APCs, and 1.260 howitzers, et cetera, whereas the others didn't receive a single rifle.

Q. Yes, we'll come to that who was issued with what and what actually happened there, but among others it says under point (3), "The role of the army in preventing bloodshed in Sarajevo on the 3rd and 4th of March 1992 had strong reverberations in the positive sense of the word among all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina." And then it goes on to say that, "The party's leaders at all level are trying to minimise the role of the army with the Croatian people, that among that night among his people and are proving quite successful. And I'm sure you'll remember that the army did prevent bloodshed and all the rest of it. Do you remember those events, Mr. Selak?

A. I don't remember the key details. I know it happened but I can't remember the specifics and details. I can't comment. It's not that I don't want to; I can't comment on the details.

Q. And point B says, "the role of the JNA army that night revived the Muslim people's trust towards the JNA to a great degree. The district ²²²⁶⁷ command has received most telegrams, letters and telephone calls from Muslims as a sign of gratitude to us for preventing bloodshed. We have learnt that the leadership of the SDA and some other parties are reviewing a plan that would again turn the Muslim people against the JNA. Up to now, they have not proved successful." My comment afterwards: Unfortunately they did succeed; isn't that right sir?

A. No, unfortunately, 1.078 lives were what it cost. That was the result. Those were the lives that were lost of all this.

Q. The result of the referendum?

A. The result of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. And who perpetrated the aggression, the Bosnian Herzegovinians against themselves?

A. No. But with the forces of Greater Serbia and Montenegro.

Q. The Army of Republika Srpska was composed of people from Republika Srpska, from Bosnia-Herzegovina, or perhaps from Yugoslavia. Which was it?

A. From Serbia and Montenegro.

Q. Well, the few volunteers from Serbia and Montenegro, Mr. Selak, can you compare that at all with the number of Mujahedin who had come in to fight on the Muslim side?

A. Yes. Those from Ukraine, Belorussia, and Romania, the ones that came in from Yugoslavia and the volunteers from Yugoslavia, Arkan's men, Seselj's men and all the rest of them.

Q. Well, you can count them on the fingers of one hand.

JUDGE MAY: This kind of argument is not going to get us anywhere. ²²²⁶⁸ Let's move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Mr. Groome drew your attention in particular to a portion of this document entitled: "Certain experiences" or, rather, "Experiences" is the chapter heading. That's on page 5 of this document.

A. Yes, I've found it.

Q. Now, I'm going to draw your attention to something that Mr. Groome might have omitted to focus on. He spoke -- speaks of certain experiences and says, "most of the armed Serbs did not wish to leave their territory proper." And in brackets it says, under inverted commas, doorstep or threshold, from their own threshold, in fact, "but to defend their villages, parts of towns and nearby military facilities; this especially pertains to Serbs in areas where the Muslims are the majority population." So they are afraid for their -- the lives of their families and safety of their families because they are in jeopardy. Isn't that so, Mr. Selak?

A. What you've just read out is what it says in the document. Now, what their actual behaviour and conduct was --

Q. You mean to say they didn't have anything to fear?

A. Well, we see what happened in the territory controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that there were no camps, that there was no genocide as happened the other side. So that tells you something, doesn't it, sir?

Q. Well, I don't -- I assume that you know that there were 400 camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia for Serbs. I'm sure you are aware of that? ²²²⁶⁹

A. I also know that there were 640 camps which were held by the Serbs where they incarcerated women and children, children as young as 1 year old and elderly persons.

Q. You don't know that. In you did know that then you would also know about the people who brought you here to testify, not even the people who brought you here to testify can claim that.

JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow these sort of arguments to continue. Stick to this document. If you've got any specific questions about it, ask them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, he also indicates that certain leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party are advocating a distancing from the JNA and creation of some other army, "disassociation from the JNA and the creation of a second army which could have negative consequences for the JNA," and that's quite true. And that the SAO assemblies are making ultimatums on the army and that is true too, "issuing conditions or ultimatums to the army," which is true. And then he goes on to say that "it would be indispensable to put a stop to the arming of volunteer units until the situation quietens down" and so on and so forth.

And then further on in that same document it refers to warehouses, depots. It is RMR, which means materiel, war reserves, the situation and problems of dislocation. And then it goes on to state that from Donji Lapac, this should be transferred to Bosanski Petrovac because it is more secure. Donji Lapac is on Serb territory as well but in Krajina.

A. Like Bosanski Petrovac too. ²²²⁷⁰

Q. What did you say?

A. Just like Bosanski Petrovac.

Q. I assume Bosanski Petrovac is in Bosnia?

A. But it is a majority Serb population. So it wasn't relocated to Gornji Vakuf or Travnik.

Q. All right. It was relocated to the Bosnia-Herzegovina territory and the Golubic depot near Knin and Golubic is mentioned as a training centre here. And it has been relocated to Bosansko Grahovo where a new depot was to be formed?

A. Yes, Bosansko Grahovo, there 90 per cent of the population were Serbs, Your Honours. Take a look at the 1991 population census.

Q. He's relocating it from Knin?

A. Yes.

Q. Moving it to a more secure location?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. So from the Doboj depot to the Tumare, Trsko Brdo depot which is ten kilometres from Zavidovici, and then the Sevarlije depot which you quoted is thrown out of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina completely and is being sent to Serbia, relocated there. So, not only is he not bringing in from Serbia, he is sending reserves out into Serbia. Isn't that so, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes. But take a look at the date, because it was only later that these shortages of ammunition, weapons and all the rest of it was making itself felt. At that time it was ballast, dead weight, and they didn't want that to fall into hands of the enemy or, rather, the other side. ^{22271 BLANK PAGE 22272}

Q. So this is transference from the depots and not handing out of any kind. Then it says the relocation of these reserves are being unified with the JNA for security purposes.

And on page 8, he specifies that "in the Faletici depot and Hadzici depot, Usivak, Igman, and Krupanjska Rijeka, there is a vast quantity" - and the word is vast - "vast quantity of Territorial Defence means and resources and those of the JNA." So that is what you used. Isn't that right, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes. And we know the reason why this left Hadzici and Faletici, because it was a Muslim-populated area. So I can prove that too on the basis of the 1991 population census.

Q. And then it goes on to say, "bearing in mind the option that soon Bosnia-Herzegovina would be recognised as a state and that the Serb people did not wish to remain and live in a 'ghetto' state, one could expect numerous problems vis-a-vis the JNA." Are you aware of that?

A. That is what it says in the document. But I'm not surprised to see who wrote it and that the person who wrote it should have this kind of attitude.

Q. And it says, "caution the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina even more strongly through the use of various methods that they should not make any moves against the JNA which could provoke a reaction or clash. There has been much success in this respect following the well-known events that took place in Sarajevo in early March this year, and then he goes on to say that this was also precisely said by Jose Cutileiro a couple of days ago in talks," et cetera, "and that attention was drawn to the severe ²²²⁷³ consequences of the EEC, should support this negative stand towards the JNA." Then he speaks of the need to "eliminate all lies about the army." So judging by all this, is what General Kukanjac states and writes in this document, is it an expression of the objective state of affairs that reigned at the time, that prevailed at the time, and that the JNA had an equal attitude towards one and all, behaved equally towards everyone or do you claim the contrary?

A. He did write that the JNA had relationship of equality to everybody, but what he did, the pulling out of reserves and his subsequent behaviour and conduct deny this, Your Honours.

Q. All right. That is what you claim.

A. Yes. I am here under oath, under the solemn declaration, and I'm telling you how things were, how things stood.

Q. All right. Fine. I'm going to try and move on. You spoke of the next portion in detail. Mr. Groome emphasised that in tab 7, in order to save time that there were a number of documents organised within tab 7. I didn't analyse them all, but I know that tab 7 has been compiled in tabular form with columns. And we have your comments here, Mr. Selak, which means that there's a document where you -- which is called the "List of participants in the national liberation war from Kotor Varos to be provided with identify arms." That is one document. And they were the veterans, in fact, the Partisans of the national liberation war, who were provided with these sidearms for their own protection. Is that right, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes. ²²²⁷⁴

Q. You said there was one Muslim on the list?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you happen to notice that beside the name of that particular Muslim it says that he was the leader of the department, commander of the department that numbered 10 to 15 people?

A. Ten men in fact, that he was the komandir, the commander. Yes that was stated.

Q. And that he was a Muslim, the commander was a Muslim?

A. Yes.

Q. So would you call that a hostile act against Muslims?

A. Yes, but they were World War II veterans, over 65 years of age, 70 years of age. They were not conscripts. And there were Muslims in Serbia and in Republika Srpska who stayed on, and every man is responsible for his own behaviour and conduct.

Q. That is my view too. Everybody should be held responsible for their own conduct and behaviour, not for other people's conducts and behaviour.

A. Yes, yes, I agree with you completely.

Q. Then you have the TO Bosanski Petrovac document from the Municipal Staff there written by Captain First Class Obo Brzic [phoen], and you say the request of the 13th of December by the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Petrovac to the logistics base, and all that took place while the SFRY, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was in existence and the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina too. Is that right, Mr. Selak ²²²⁷⁵

A. Yes. That is the date. It pertains to those times, that period in history.

Q. Then you have that Colonel Skondric supports the request and expounds on why he feels this should be issued. And Gradmir Petrovic is mentioned as well. So all that relates to the time of normal communication between the army and the JNA.

Now, do you recall, Mr. Selak, that this morning Mr. Groome asked you where the weapons came from when he spoke about the volunteers, and your answer was -- you explained to him that in part, it came from the logistics bases there, from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina itself, and that in part, as you said, I believe, it came from the part of the weaponry of the units which were withdrawing from Slovenia and Croatia. I believe you said that, didn't you?

A. The units or the material reserves from the depots and bases, because the logistics base in Zagreb and Karlovac were disbanded. So those technical resource and materiel were transported to the territory of the Banja corps in trucks.

Q. All right. So you said this was from the logistical bases and the resources of the units withdrawing from Slovenia and Croatia; is that right?

A. Yes, because the Zagreb Corps was disbanded.

Q. Does that show that at that period of time on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a vast concentration of weaponry, generally speaking, and military materiel; is that right?

A. Yes. ²²²⁷⁶

Q. So the military materiel and weaponry did not come from Serbia. It was already located in Bosnia-Herzegovina, wasn't it?

A. At that time, yes.

Q. That's what I wanted to hear, because the opposite is being claimed here. I won't belabour the point, and continue along this tabulary compilation of documents.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. That may be a convenient moment to adjourn.

Yes. Mr. Selak, you wanted to say something.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to explain something with respect to this document, the document that the accused has just asked me about? I didn't answer your question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You did answer my questions.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let -- let the witness finish and then we'll adjourn.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the weapons and military materiel which was pulled out of Slovenia and Croatia passed through the territory of Bosanska Krajina too. There was no need to have weapons and materiel from Serbia for the territory of Bosanska Krajina. That's what I said. I don't know about the eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina which borders on Serbia and Montenegro. So much from me.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Kern has returned with the excerpts ²²²⁷⁷ that were referred to of Mr. Selak's notebook. With the Court's permission, I would ask the Registrar to pass this to the accused so he may use it during the break if he wishes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we will do, but we will adjourn first. Let's adjourn. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We'll sit on until 2.00 to try and make up time. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Selak, will you look at tab number 9 that you've commented on. It is dated the 3rd of January, 1992. It is -- says that it is on behalf of Milan Skondric, the 530th logistics base. Mr. Groome asked you in connection with what it says here in the second paragraph that the point is "to control the territory administrative and local communications, protect facilities of particular significance, and coordinate action by the JNA units in the eventuality of combat operations."

Mr. Groome asked you whether any combat activity had been planned and you said that you were not aware of any.

My question is: Is it clear from this document that no reference is made to any planned combat operations? It says quite the opposite. It says should or in the eventuality of any combat operations in this area. It means should a state of necessity occur. So there was no plan for executing combat operations but only should people be in jeopardy. That ²²²⁷⁸ is the expression used. Is that clear or not, Mr. Selak?

A. That is what it says in the document signed by Colonel Skondric. However, there were plans for the use of JNA units, war plans, which were updated every year so that such plans did exist.

Q. Yes. For decades, ever since the institution called the army exists, it always has its plans. But Mr. Groome didn't ask you whether the army had its plans but whether you were aware of any planned combat operations, any plan of combat operations. And it is quite clear from here that the -- from this that the reference is to the eventuality of combat operations should the armed forces have to be used. So my comment is that no reference is made to specific plans, to concrete plans, but only to the possibility of any combat operations.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. I'll leave out some of your exhibits because I don't have too much time. Now, for instance, let's have a look at number 12. "To the command of the 10th corps, the 530th logistics base, to the commander personally." Telegram of the 10th corps regarding the formation of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. And an explanation is given.

This actually, and am I right, Mr. Selak, that this is a local exchange of correspondence between you and the municipality in your area?

A. No. The commander of the 2nd Military District is sending a report as to how the 10th Corps command should act, as well as the 530th Logistics Base, and that if they don't resolve the problem themselves they should address themselves to the technical administration of the SSNO. ²²²⁷⁹ That is the Federal Secretariat for National Defence.

Q. And you need to resolve it as the commander of the logistics base?

A. No. Colonel Skondric, the 530th Logistic Base. Which was later joined with our base later on.

Q. Was it within your terms of reference?

A. In that period of time, no. So I won't ask you anything more about this in particular, as I believe that such things and relations with the Territorial Defence were of no -- nothing secret to you. You were well aware of these things.

A. They should not have been a secret, because I logistically supplied all the units in my area of responsibility including the Territorial Defence, all the needs for combat.

Q. So was this a secret for you or not?

A. No, it wasn't any secret. I was well aware of them.

Q. That is what I wanted to hear. You have here in tab 15 the request for the replenishment of TO units and the SJB, the public security service, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And then it says "The request of the district staff of the TO for Bihac."

A. Yes.

Q. Was this during the period when the JNA was functioning normally? There were no conflicts. The Territorial Defence of Bihac is quite regularly requesting replenishment in weapons.

A. This is a unique case of the chief of the service of the command ²²²⁸⁰ of the 2nd Military District to send to the General Staff in Belgrade permission to issue infantry weapons to the TO staff of a municipality which had a Muslim majority.

Q. Very well. The point was to meet the request of that municipality.

A. Yes, but this is the only case, not for Petrovac, Grahovo, Drvar, Kljuc, and other municipalities, but only for Bihac which had a majority Muslim population.

Q. Tell me, please, was this some sort of discrimination towards Bihac which had a Muslim majority?

A. I'm not talking about discrimination but a lengthier way of dealing with this problem.

Q. As we now have Exhibit 16 too, or tab 16 where he talks about the AP 7 -- command of the 2nd Military District, "Due to the demonstrated need and the current situation in the city of Sarajevo issue the following to Novo Sarajevo Territorial Defence Staff, 250 automatic rifles, 7.62 millimetres." You have already commented on this document. Tell me, were the Serbs in Sarajevo endangered or not?

A. In those days when this was happening, I did not have any explicit or daily reports about events in Sarajevo.

Q. So you're unable to answer that question. So that -- then I won't bother you with it.

A. But for the army commander of a military district to send an order to the battalion is rather illogical. And in Novo Sarajevo, the majority of the population were Serbs. ²²²⁸¹

Q. Look, please, at tab 18 now in which Talic explained on the 7th of May, 1992, that members of the JNA who are not from Bosnia-Herzegovina are leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

A. Not Talic. This is Vukelic, the assistant for moral guidance. We've already commented on this if that is the document you're referring to.

Q. No. I'm sorry. I referred to tab 18 at the beginning. I'm talking about tab 17. My mistake. I gave you the wrong number. From this we see that members from the JNA who are not from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina are leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that right, Mr. Selak?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Let us move on.

A. But upon their request, not in obligatory form, because there's another document, Your Honours, in which it is clearly stated that officers from the Army of Republika Srpska born in Serbia and Montenegro cannot leave their positions without the permission of the General Staff of FRY.

Q. Mr. Selak, as you know that the decision was taken for all of them to leave, I assume you're talking about tab 19 which refers only to the desire to prevent chaos so that people should not leave in a disorganised manner but that their departure should be registered and implemented in an organised way, not that they shouldn't leave.

A. From the logistics base of which I was in command, I don't know of a single case of a Serb born in Serbia or Montenegro to have left in June ²²²⁸² or July except for a Bosniak from Montenegro, but not a single Serb did so.

Q. So that is in contradiction with what we noted a moment ago, because we said that they had left, all of them.

A. I am talking about the logistics base.

Q. So actually you mean the administrative staff.

A. No, no, not administrative staff. Ammunition depots, fuel warehouses are not held by administrative staff. They are specialists for ammunition and weapons, chemical devices and so on.

Q. Yes. Those are ancillary services but experts, and they cannot leave until they are replaced, but they are all leaving once a solution is found, an appropriate solution is found.

A. I repeat, I don't remember that any one of them had left. And there's a table of the corps command, Your Honours, in which it can be seen after the 18th of May how many officers remained in the corps command who were born in Serbia and Montenegro. On the table, you can see their names mentioned.

Q. Which is the table you're referring to?

A. It was in the Brdjanin case or Tadic.

Q. So we'll look into that subsequently. Let us please look now at this table of yours that you prepared, and it is under tab 21, and it says here a review of the logistics flow between the Army of Republika Srpska and the army of Yugoslavia linked to the 14th Logistics Base after the 18th of May.

In that connection, in your work notebook that you quoted from, ²²²⁸³ the date was the 4th of June, 1992. You described what General Djukic said. Who would be responsible for the salaries of the Army of Republika Srpska, as you say, with the head count on the 19th of May, 1992, which is the date when the JNA is leaving and it is no longer the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

A. The JNA officially was leaving, but the units remained and were renamed the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. The Army of Republika Srpska consisted of members who were from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. No.

Q. Just as the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina consisted mostly of members and officers from Bosnia-Herzegovina only they were Muslims.

A. No. There were Serbs and Croats. The Bosniaks were the majority, of course. But when we're talking about this order of General Djukic's, it was implemented throughout the duration of the war, Your Honours.

Q. Let us clear one thing up, please. You're talking about salaries for those people.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it clear to you, Mr. Selak, that the people retained their required rights to a personal income and social insurance? Is that clear or not?

A. Yes. But they retain the same workplaces.

Q. They retained their acquired rights. You even mentioned pensions, and certainly someone receiving a pension is entitled to receiving that pension out of the social insurance funds to which his contribution had ²²²⁸⁴ been invested for that pension during his years of service, and you yourself said here when talking about salaries, you used the expression "One cannot live off air alone. If they hadn't received salaries, they would have nothing to live on." And you even explained that they would have to get their meals from charity canteens, et cetera. So the members of the JNA up until then who stayed on in Bosnia and Herzegovina and who joined the Army of Republika Srpska retained their acquired right to a personal income and social insurance. So what? Do you believe that they shouldn't have retained those rights and that they should have got their meals from soup kitchens and would have nothing to feed their families with?

A. Something else are at stake. You know that in our people, in the Balkans there is a saying: I work for the one who pays me. Si if I'm paid by the FRY, then I work for them too, don't I?

Q. Mr. Selak, in your case that is absolutely not true. You're saying that those people retained their rights to a personal income and insurance and that was a kind of aid which no one is disputing that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did provide to former members of the JNA. But what I am endeavouring to challenge is that by your comments on this table, you said that this showed that the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia - I've noted down what you said and I'm quoting - was competent or responsible when it came to control and command of the Army of Republika Srpska, which is absolutely not true.

So do you know that the Army of Republika Srpska was an independent army, that Republika Srpska adopted its own constitution and ²²²⁸⁵ that pursuant to that constitution there was a Supreme Command?

JUDGE MAY: We will deal with these things one at a time. You're not disputing then, Mr. Milosevic, as I understand it, that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did provide salaries, did pay for the personnel of the VRS; is that right?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, people retained their vested rights to a salary and social insurance.

JUDGE MAY: So you're not disputing that they paid. I mean, whatever you call it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I am saying is that from what Mr. Selak is saying is something that I am challenging, that is that the army of Yugoslavia had any kind of authority with regard to the control and command of the Army of Republika Srpska.

JUDGE MAY: Let us pause there. You've heard what the accused is challenging. Did the army, the VJ, the army of Yugoslavia have any sort of authority with regard to the control and command of the VRS?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when the army of Republika Srpska was formed, General Adzic, the chief of staff, signed the order saying that the commander of the VRS would be Lieutenant Colonel Mladic. That is one point.

And secondly, throughout the duration of the war I was in Banja Luka. There were regular communications, supplies, everything went via Belgrade. The politicians made the decisions, headed by the accused and Karadzic, and then this was carried out and implemented by the army.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ^{22286 BLANK PAGE 22287}

Q. Mr. Selak, let us be quite precise. Did the Army of Republika Srpska have its own command?

A. Yes, it did. And in the Republic of Srpska, was there a Supreme Defence Council?

A. All the institutions existed of the Army of Republika Srpska as being an independent state, and those within its composition. And this was signed by the President of the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

Q. Krajisnik.

A. Yes, that's right, Momcilo Krajisnik.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. I'm sorry, but we didn't hear the question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In formal terms, yes, but not de facto.

JUDGE MAY: Would you repeat the question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it clear that the Army of Republika Srpska was, therefore, an autonomous and independent army, not under the command of any kind of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. There is a document in the Tribunal which states that an officer leaving the Army of Republika Srpska will be held responsible and accountable in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And I was shown that document a few days ago.

Therefore, that gives you an answer.

Q. It doesn't provide an answer. You said a moment ago that in formal terms it was separated but not de facto, in actual fact. ²²²⁸⁸

A. Yes, and I say that again. I can confirm that.

Q. All right. Now, is there any kind of combat assignment, any kind of order, the usual type of order in an army which could go from the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia towards the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska? Was there ever any such order or did they have their own Supreme Defence Council and their own Supreme Staff?

A. Your Honours, there was no need for decisions of this kind because the goals were the same, and that was to create a new Yugoslavia.

Q. Mr. Selak, you're a soldier yourself, a military man, and you know that if a chain of command exists, then that chain of command must function. It must be operational. Now, as you cannot show us a single order, nor did any order ever exist, then that chain of command does not exist by the same token; isn't that right, Mr. Selak?

A. My answer was yes. In formal terms no, but actually it did.

Q. All right. That is your conviction. I'm not going to dwell on that point. But I say that if there are no orders there cannot be a chain of command. You know that as a soldier. You graduated from all the military schools.

A. There wasn't need for orders of that kind because it was the politicians that order the army. And you were in command on the 30th of June, 1991. Mamula, Mr. Jovic, and all the rest of them said the same thing at the time.

Q. Neither Jovic said that, nor could Mamula have because Mamula had retired long before that.

A. Well he gave a statement to that effect. ²²²⁸⁹

Q. What Mamula said when he was a pensioner and retired, I really can't say. I don't know. But both in formal terms and actual terms, that is quite impossible. But let's move on.

Mention was made here of civilians, civilians serving in the army were usually various types of experts, professionals.

A. Yes.

Q. They don't wear uniforms, but they are employed by the army. They can be a driver. They can be a mechanic.

A. They can also be doctors and explosives professionals.

Q. I don't know what you mean by this pyrotechnics technician. What does that mean?

A. For explosive devices and lethal devices. That's what I mean.

Q. All right. Fine. Mr. Selak, I'm sure you didn't have any explosive devices and devices of that kind in the Bosnia-Herzegovina army. And you say that over there they adhered to war law and the customs of war and that there were no war crimes, ethnic cleansing or anything of that kind. That's what you claim, isn't it?

A. Well, the figures speak for themselves. How many casualties there were, civilians, children, and all the rest of it, and how many combatants. The Association of Bosnia-Herzegovina Camp Inmates has the precise facts and figures. As to the casualties, children ranging from the ages of 1 year to old men of 60 and 70.

Q. Unfortunately, all of this was very tragic, and all this did exist on all three sides during the civil war.

A. It was not a civil war. ²²²⁹⁰

JUDGE MAY: Let us not go into these generalisations. Come back to more concrete questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I won't enter into any generalities, generalisations. May we see brief footage from a tape where we can see the kind of conduct and behaviour of that Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of this for this witness? Is he shown on it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, he isn't shown.

JUDGE MAY: Then there's no point showing it to him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, it will have some sense for something else in due course, but we're talking about crimes, precisely the crimes of those -- that army, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody must be held accountable for their own conduct.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes, I completely agree with that, that everybody must be responsible for their own conduct and behaviour. Mr. Selak, you say you are from Visegrad by origin; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And your statement of 1996 says so on page 1, paragraph 1. You say that during the Second World War, crimes were committed against Muslims there.

A. Yes, terrible crimes. ²²²⁹¹

Q. Who committed those terrible crimes against the Muslims in -- during the war?

A. The Chetniks.

Q. Tell me, please, as you're from Visegrad yourself, and as you say crimes were committed against the Muslims, do you know that the uprising against the occupiers was started precisely in Serbia on the 7th of July, 1941? Are you aware of that?

A. The uprising started in Drvar. There was an uprising in Drvar in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the same time.

Q. Yes, one month later or several weeks later. It doesn't really matter. But all the people rose up --

JUDGE MAY: This isn't a matter for the witness. Whatever was in his statement is totally irrelevant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you are from Visegrad yourself, in your town after the multi-party elections were held in 1990, were threats and pressure brought to bear and physical attacks against Serbs as well, and were they the genocidal slogans about the need to eradicate the Serbs from Visegrad? Do you remember those slogans?

A. I'm sure that's not true.

Q. All right then. Is it true and correct, Mr. Selak, that on the 1st of July, 1991, we're talking about 1991, on the liberation -- Liberation Square in Visegrad, a statute was pulled down to Nobel prize winner Ivo Andric, Nobel Prize winner for literature. He was ²²²⁹² an author, Ivo Andric. And this was perpetrated by the brother of one of the leaders of the Party for Democratic Action in Visegrad. And the head destroyed with a hammer, smashed with a hammer, the marble head of this statue. And this entire event was televised, was filmed by Muslim television at that time, that is to say the 1st of July, 1991, when the statue to Nobel Prize winner, the sole Nobel Prize winner in Yugoslavia, Ivo Andric, was destroyed for the simple and only fact that he was a Serb. Do you know about that fact? Have you heard about that event?

JUDGE MAY: Do you know nothing about this, particularly of your own knowledge?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is this, that the statue was toppled. Who did that, I don't know. I don't know the details. But I know on the bridge of Visegrad thousands of people were slaughtered and that the entire Bosniak population had to leave --

JUDGE MAY: That's another matter. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you do know. It's the 1st of July, which makes it in the middle of 1991 exactly.

JUDGE MAY: You made the point.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And I'm sure you will remember already in August 1991 there was a slogan put out, a pamphlet distributed by the Muslims in Visegrad which was distributed with 20 instructions, what should be done to the Serbs to expel them or destroy them. ²²²⁹³

A. I'm hearing that for the first time.

Q. Don't -- you don't remember that one of the instructions was prevent your children from playing with Serb children, urinate in front of them, et cetera?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Selak, were you in Visegrad at this time?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was in Banja Luka.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, Mr. Selak is from Visegrad originally.

JUDGE MAY: Of course he's from Visegrad originally. It doesn't mean he was there at the time. He was in Banja Luka. Are we going to have any witnesses from Visegrad?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that is one of the witnesses -- that is one of the municipalities we are proposing to introduce through 92 bis (D) evidence, so there will be evidence but in 92 bis (D) form.

JUDGE MAY: There may be one or two live ones.

MR. GROOME: There may be one or two live ones. If I might also to clear up this matter, I believe the witness left Visegrad at the age of 5, so he hadn't been at Visegrad for a very long time.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. But then it be sensible to have at least one witness live so that these matters can be put to...

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We'll make sure there's one witness live from Visegrad and you can put these matters to him.

Mr. Selak, when did you leave Visegrad? When did you leave?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I left Visegrad in ²²²⁹⁴ 1941. I was fleeing from the Chetniks, and I reached Sarajevo, and I was placed into a children's hostel there where I spent some years, 14 in fact.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Selak, does that mean that you never went to Visegrad after that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And during those critical years, did you go to Visegrad on a visit?

A. No, because my duties were elsewhere in Banja Luka. I couldn't leave Banja Luka for even a week.

Q. But I'm sure you'll remember as a JNA officer at that time, you were still a JNA officer, that is to say April 1992 when this man Murat Sabanovic, who otherwise demolished the Ivo Andric statue and threatened to destroy the hydroelectric power plant --

JUDGE MAY: No. You're not wasting time with this. You've heard this witness left in 1941. It's absolutely pointless to ask him more questions about it. To ensure that you have somebody you can put these matters to, we will make sure that a witness from Visegrad gets here. Now, no more questions about that for this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, Yugoslavia was a small country, and Bosnia, one of its republics, even smaller. Everybody knew about everything, and I am sure the witness knows about that event without a doubt. But he doesn't like giving answers to that, and I can understand that too. ²²²⁹⁵

JUDGE MAY: What we've said is that this is irrelevant as far as this witness is concerned. Now, let's move on to something he can deal with.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Selak, let's go back to your statement. You completed the military technical academy in Zagreb. That's right, isn't it. That's what it says on page 1 of the statement given in 1996?

A. Yes.

Q. After you completed the Vojno Tehnicka academy, you had all the prerequisites for becoming a Lieutenant Colonel but you achieved the rank of Colonel?

A. No. I got the first rank of an officer, second lieutenant, after completing the academy. I was given the rank of Colonel in 1986.

Q. Were you appointed to the rank Colonel ahead of time?

A. Extraordinary appointment.

Q. Right. So you were promoted to the highest officer's rank but General; is that right? Before a general?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, this promotion, the fact that you were promoted, that fact, does that testify to the fact that there was no - how shall I put this - no discrimination on an ethnic basis in the army?

A. No. My official marks and the appreciation I got was excellent work. And on the basis of this, I was given the legal prerequisites for a promotion to the rank of Colonel, because my units were assessed with these exceptional marks. ²²²⁹⁶

Q. That's fine, Mr. Selak, and highly positive for yourself personally, but extraordinary promotion is not a right. May we then conclude that the fact that you were promoted ahead of time to the rank of Colonel, that this in fact meant that there was no discrimination, because you were a Muslim, against you? Would that be right?

A. Your Honours, in 1991, there were Muslim Colonels in the Yugoslav People's Army, only 28 of them, in fact. According to the national and ethnic key, there should have been 200-odd. There were supposed to be 14 Generals, whereas there was only three Generals and so on and so forth. I have an official scale and I can document that. So Selak was one of those. Judged by his merits, on his merits and the results of his work.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ethnic key, there should have been a certain number. What is this that you're referring to?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said ethnic key, and when I said that I mean the number of inhabitants, Muslim inhabitants, Serbs, Croats and so on. The break-up of the population in relation to ethnicity. So that when we speak of ethnic affiliation for high-ranking officers of the JNA, I'm taking -- let me take Montenegrins, there were fewest of those. There should have been four Generals, whereas there were 19 Montenegrin Generals. As to the Serbs, there should have been 56 Generals; there were 77 Generals. Muslims, there should have been 14, whereas there were only three. So that was discrimination on ethnic grounds and that is the true of it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Selak, are you really claiming that in the Yugoslav People's ²²²⁹⁷ Army there was discrimination on ethnic -- on an ethnic basis?

A. In the General Staff and high up, yes, because I do have documents, Your Honours, in my briefcase according to which five of my requests for extra tuition and relocation to my superiors from Banja Luka -- my superiors from Banja Luka sent good marks about me to Belgrade and positive opinions but none of my requests were authorised, and I have them in my briefcase.

Q. All right, Mr. Selak, but you received the rank of Colonel ahead of time and yet you say you were discriminated against. Does that seem to you to be logical?

A. What I said was in the course of my military service and the results of my work therein, they had to give me the rank of Colonel because the base commander implied a rank of Colonel. I excelled myself in my work so there was no logic that somebody working like that with those marks should not be promoted to Colonel.

Q. Very well, Mr. Selak. You mentioned the national key, that is the balance between the positions and the population. Surely that depends how many people opt for military service. In some ethnic groups there were more people who wanted to be soldiers than in others. Surely that was the structure of the army and not only the ethnic composition of Yugoslavia as a whole.

A. Your Honours, I have information, individual information, that candidates for military schools, that is Croats and Bosniaks, I'm talking about these two groups, that there was discrimination against them at systematic medical examinations. They were found to be physically unfit. ²²²⁹⁸ Fortis [phoen] the football player of 18 years wanted to enroll at the military academy was rejected because he was found to be physically unfit. And that was the procedure applied to Muslims and Croats. I know that for sure. In Donji Vakuf, I know the name of the man.

Q. Very well, Mr. Selak. I'm very glad that you were able to state such things, because it is very easy to establish that that is an untruth.

A. That is the truth.

Q. It's very -- it's a good thing that you were able to say any such thing.

You said that in the course of 1992, you were appointed liaison with the UN forces for a brief period, that is the UN forces designated for Krajina and Bosnia and Herzegovina. You say that in your statement of 1996, on page 3, but that you were replaced because did you not agree with the decisions of the political leaders. And you say that you were replaced by the Serbs; is that right?

A. I was replaced by the General Staff of the JNA that had appointed me, but it was upon the intervention of the corps commander General Vukovic, who unfortunately was killed, and he can't confirm that.

Q. Tell me, please, was the reason that you were moved from that position the fact that you engaged in some sort of espionage activities?

A. No, no. Espionage, that is not true.

Q. Mr. Selak, on page 1 of your statement dated the 10th of March, 2001, you admit yourself that during your first contacts with the International Criminal Tribunal, as you call it, you did not consciously disclose information about your links with the Muslim resistance movement ²²²⁹⁹ in Banja Luka prior to July 1992. Is it true that you stated that?

A. I said that there was a resistance movement. And when I retired, I was elected commander of the resistance movement staff in Banja Luka.

JUDGE MAY: Now, the point that the accused is making is that you didn't, when you first spoke to members of the Prosecution staff, disclose those links. That's apparently what it says in your statement. Now, is that right that you didn't, when you first met the Prosecutors, disclose those links?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because I was afraid, Your Honours, for the lives of my associates who were living in the territory of Republika Srpska.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you did not intentionally disclose information about your links with the Muslim resistance movement in Banja Luka prior to July 1992. Is that right or not?

A. Yes it is.

Q. And is it true that while you were still in the service of the JNA with the rank of colonel, on two occasions through couriers you conveyed information to Muharem Krzic in Banja Luka? That is what is stated on page 2, paragraph 3.

A. Yes, in order to protect the Muslim people from the genocide that was being prepared against it by the JNA and the paramilitary units.

Q. I am just asking you whether you did that. You're now explaining some subsequent reasons. Is it also true that you conveyed that information to the government in Sarajevo using your code name Lido? ²²³⁰⁰

A. Yes.

Q. And tell me, is it true that whatever you learnt you passed on to the embassies of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb and Slovenia?

A. Yes.

Q. You conveyed to Krzic information having to do with Sarajevo, is that true?

A. Not having to do with Sarajevo but having to do with the lives and survival of Bosniaks in Bosnian Krajina and Banja Luka, only that. I don't know anything about Sarajevo.

Q. On page 2 of your statement of March 2001, you can find it in paragraph 4.

A. No. The information may have reached Sarajevo, but the information was about life in Banja Luka and saving Bosniaks in Banja Luka.

Q. Is it true that as far as the quality of that information, it was more or less rumours?

A. No. These -- this information related to the survival of Muslims, arrests of Muslims, the formation of groups such as Voltar, Merhamet, arrests, killings, throwing into the Vrbas River. I reported such things.

Q. What about this Merhamet group? Is that a Muslim group?

A. It's an humanitarian organisation, Merhamet. All the leaders of that organisation in Banja Luka were arrested.

Q. Because they engaged in humanitarian activities?

A. No. In order to make it clear to the Muslim population that they should leave Banja Luka because they have nothing to look -- expect there ^{22301 BLANK PAGE 22302} because they were going to arrest the more prominent representatives, politicians, economists, and these would be followed by the population at large.

Q. You say, Mr. Selak, that you received information about the shelling of Sarajevo from the commander of the air force, General Ninkovic, with whom you were on good terms; is that right?

A. Yes. That is what I said. In order to protect the population from the possibility of the bombing of Sarajevo by the JNA air force.

Q. Well, did the JNA air force bomb Sarajevo?

A. It did. That is the Army of Republika Srpska did, rather, planes of Belgrade shelled Konjic, Sarajevo, Zvornik, and even Visegrad.

Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please, we can see that you said about what you had heard, you say that on one day you happened to come across General Talic, and you heard Ninkovic saying, "We are now prepared to hit Sarajevo." And on the basis of this sentence, you said that you conveyed to the SDA plans on the bombing of Sarajevo.

A. Not SDA. That party never interested me. I was interested in the people. I was afraid that the bombing could happen and that people should take shelter so as not to be killed. It was just for preventive purposes.

Q. I see. For preventive purposes you said that they might be shelling.

Tell me, in your statement you say that in most cases information regarding military activities of the 1st Krajina Corps you received while drinking coffee with your Serb colleagues; is that right?

A. Whether I was having coffee or meeting with my colleagues in the ²²³⁰³ street who were, until yesterday, my associates, in any event, I did get information in that way too. However, there were no armed actions. Not a single bullet was found, so as not to give an excuse to the Serbian army to commit genocide as had occurred in Prijedor. The resistance movement in Banja Luka didn't fire a single bullet.

Q. In your statement, you also say that there were always problems with nationalism in the SFRY. You also say that there was only Serb nationalism.

So my question, Mr. Selak, is: Did any member of your family or was any of your friends persecuted on a nationalistic basis by the Serbs?

A. I did not have any such case within my family, but there was nationalism not only among the Serbs but among the other peoples as well.

Q. I am glad you said that at least. And on page 4, paragraph 3, you give an example. You say that on one occasion an officer called you a Turk but that he was punished because of that. Is that right or not?

A. Your Honours, allow me to explain this particular incident. I can't just say yes or no. I was in the military academy. My final year at the academy, and we were going to have a bath, having a shower, and I had a -- jokingly a fight were my colleague, a Serb. A Lieutenant Colonel Milan Curovija, who was our supervisor didn't realise that it was a joke. I raised this colleague of mine up in the air. He thought I was going to throw him down on the concrete, and he said, "You Turk, let him go." Your Honour, I'm not a Turk. I'm a Bosniak. This offended me. I don't wish to denigrate the Turks at all in any way, but this was in his subconscious, because they called us Turks in a derogatory fashion, and ²²³⁰⁴ that's why Curovija used the term. And he was punished. I heard he was punish. He tried to apologise to me three years later. He came to Banja Luka. But same occurred with General Adzic in 1991 in September.

Q. Let us not lose any more time. Even during this joke and the person who said to you, "Let him go, you Turk," he was punished for doing that.

A. That's what I learnt. I was a cadet at the time, but I heard that he had problems.

Q. On page 5 of your 1996 statement --

THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't get the question. Could it be repeated, please?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The interpreters didn't get the question. So let's start again. Page 5 of your 1996 statement.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes, page 5. You say that the Assembly of the SFRY was controlled by the Serbs. Will you please explain to me how?

A. Because the majority of the deputies were Serbs and Montenegrins. And having a majority, let's take the Macedonians too who supported them in those days, that is what I had in mind when I said there was out-voting in the Assembly.

Q. You were a senior JNA officer, so I assume that one of your duties was to be familiar with the constitution of Yugoslavia. You know that the Assembly had two Chambers. The Chamber of Republics and Provinces consisted of the same number of deputies from each of the republics. So it was absolutely not possible according to the constitution to have any ²²³⁰⁵ out-voting or any regulation to be passed in that way, that is by out-voting. Are you aware of that or not? How can you say something so nonsensical?

A. Your Honour, it was this same Assembly that took the decision on collecting the weapons of the TO and placing them in JNA warehouses. The republics were against this, and Slovenia would not allow it. But there was this out-voting in the Assembly itself. It's -- the initiative came from the General Staff and then the Assembly adopted it.

Q. We have already established that the same procedure was applied in Serbia as well. There was no discrimination. Slovenia did not respect federal laws. Surely it should not be praised for that. What I'm asking you is whether you as an officer, who had to be familiar with the constitution, that it was not possible to have any out-voting in the Assembly of Yugoslavia. If you're claiming you don't know, tell us --

JUDGE MAY: He says there was, so I don't think we can go on much further with it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. If you think that this is an argument when I'm asking him whether he knows what the constitution says and what the Assembly looked at, let us cease with the arguments.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Talking about these things, that the weapons had to be placed under JNA control, do you know that this was done for security reasons and in all the republics? For reasons of security, not for any other discriminatory reasons, but only Slovenia did not abide by that decision? ²²³⁰⁶

A. That is not true, Your Honours, because there were no problems with weapons in the warehouses of the TO units, because my officers would occasionally go to check the security and technical operationality of these weapons. We entered the warehouses and checked the weapons, and there were no problems regarding that. The aim was to take the weapons from the population, from the TO, and to return it to the JNA so that it could issue those weapons to whom they wanted in accordance with their own plans rather than the republic, which was the only one that had any authority over the TO weapons on its territory.

Q. You even saw that this question was raised in the parliament of Serbia with the same argument. So Serbia was in the same position as the others. It was a matter for the army, which was a Yugoslav army and not a republican army. Surely you know that as a JNA officer. But the SFRY constitution explicitly said that the defence of the country should be done by the JNA and the Territorial Defence.

Q. Yes, but in the case of any danger of war, everything should be under the control of the JNA.

A. Yes, in the event of war. And this was peacetime.

Q. But as you see, there was a war after all. I just saw that you claimed that you had some information. Do you know, for instance, that in October 1991, not to mention before that, I'm talking about October 1991 now, 27 per cent of the officer cadres in the JNA - this is the end of 1991 - were neither Serbs nor Montenegrins? They were not even Yugoslavs, because many declared themselves as Yugoslavs. Twenty-seven per cent of the officer cadres. ²²³⁰⁷

A. Your Honours, I have a table. I didn't bring with me the document. It's in my new work notebook where I noted that the nationality or ethnicity of people in the territory of Yugoslavia in the ranks of majors, lieutenant colonels, colonels, and generals, how many there should have been according to the ethnic composition and how many there were.

A. You're talking about the number of the inhabitants and not the number in the JNA.

A. Yes, I do have the ethnic background of all these officer ranks.

Q. But the structure in the JNA can be compared with the structure of the officers but not the population of Yugoslavia with the structure of the officers' personnel. You can't have a baker as a general, if he's not.

A. It's interesting to note that there should have been four Montenegrin generals and there were 19. Isn't this illustrative?

Q. But Montenegrins joined the army in large numbers as opposed to some other ethnicities that had no inclination towards the military.

A. Yes, but they made very fast progress in their careers.

Q. Do you have an example of a Montenegrin making faster progress than a Muslim because he was a Montenegrin?

A. The table speaks for itself, Your Honours. I don't wish to comment on that.

Q. Let us not waste time on this. This table could be compared with a proper reference group and certainly not with the population of Yugoslavia.

Do you know, for instance, that in the air force which is an elite ²²³⁰⁸ branch of any army, so the highest education is required, the longest years of study, 52 per cent of the flying personnel were neither Serbs nor Montenegrins nor Yugoslavs, 52 per cent?

A. Your Honour, I don't have those figures, and I can't comment on them.

Q. You spoke about some bombing. That's what I'm asking you about. The JNA, nor the Yugoslav army were never against the Muslims and that both in the JNA and in the Army of Yugoslavia later on, there were occupying the touch positions were most generals who were Muslims. You will remember that the president of the -- the president of the SKS was a Muslim -- League of Communists of Yugoslavia was and so were the commanders of the army, the commander of the centre of high military schools.

A. Don't speak in the plural and say "commanders of the army." There was just one case.

Q. Well, how many armies were there? Three armies. So one of the armies.

A. There were five armies.

Q. And one was a Muslim commander, right? Of one of them?

A. I'm talking about the whole of the Yugoslav People's Army. The year is 1991, the exact figures. That's what I'm quoting. And you can't deny that. And --

Q. We'll take a look at the real facts and figures. I don't want to waste time on that now. But do you know that the head of the intelligence department administration was also a Muslim? ²²³⁰⁹

A. I don't remember who he was.

Q. You don't remember?

A. No, I don't.

Q. All right. And do you know that in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was established when the conflict broke out, that 1.100 officers of the JNA were there who were Muslims? Eleven hundred of them.

A. I'm hearing that figure quoted for the first time. I didn't have that figure. In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were both Serbs and Croats and, of course, most of them were Bosniaks because many of the rest left and went to join the Army of Republika Srpska. There were generals too. Jovo Divljak, a case in point, an honourable name. Stjepan Sivljak [phoen], a Croat and there were others too. But I just mention these two because I know them personally.

Q. All right. And do you know that in the Army of Republika Srpska there were Muslims too?

A. There were until August 1992.

Q. All right. We'll get to that in due course. But tell me this, do you know that not a single former member of the JNA who remained outside despite the fact that there was no chain of command, that is to say the Army of Yugoslavia with anybody outside, that not a single individual who had once been a member of the JNA remained outside the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had no assignments, official assignments even to send out information to the Army of Yugoslavia, nothing at all?

A. I don't understand your question. ²²³¹⁰

Q. I said let's set aside the fact that there is no chain of command from the Yugoslav army towards any formations outside Yugoslavia.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that not a single individual who was formerly a JNA member, including all those who received assistance in the form of salaries and social assistance and so, on never had any official assignment by which he would send out any information at all to the Army of Yugoslavia, not even a single piece of information?

A. We knew the course of information flow from the bottom to the top, from the underlings to the superiors. So there was no need for that by individuals.

Q. But I said there were no official channels and there were no unofficial channels either because nobody had any assignments or were given tasks to do this.

A. That's what you claim but practice has proved you wrong. Information did pass and it was passed in a regular manner from the municipalities to the Crisis Staffs, to the Government of Republika Srpska and right up to you in Belgrade.

Q. You mean the Government of Republika Srpska reported to me?

A. Well, you had continuous contacts and meetings. Yes, you did. You know that full well yourself.

Q. All right. All right. If you say so. Now, tell me can we question or challenge at all this fact, that the nucleus of the newly created Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say the army in which you say most of the members were Muslims, was precisely in the officer cadre ²²³¹¹ sense composed of that portion of members who had previously been JNA officers? Is that correct or not?

A. Of course it is. That's quite normal.

Q. Why then, if you say this is normal, is it not normal or does not apply to the Army of Republika Srpska? So if something is normal for the BH army why shouldn't it be normal for the Army of Republika Srpska?

A. Because they did away an all the officers who were Croats and Bosnians from that army, Bosniaks. There were several non-commissioned officers who changed their names, and my superior officer changed his name. He took a Serb name and he stayed on in the army. And there were -- there were very few such examples, Your Honours. So you can't compare the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina with this other army, because in the BH army, there were both officers and soldiers who were Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. That's quite true. But not in the Serb army. No, there weren't.

Q. Well, that's not true. And let me quote an example. I skipped it a moment ago to save time, but in April, even in April 1992, that is to say after the recognition of Croatia, et cetera, there was about 600 Croatian soldiers, although in January, Croatia was internationally recognised as a state. And in April there were still 600 Croatian soldiers.

A. That's true. That was April. But I'm talking about August, the month of August.

Q. All right. Fine.

A. Yes. Yes, that's what I said. ²²³¹²

Q. And are you aware of this, that nobody wielded any influence on the JNA officers who originated from Bosnia-Herzegovina to leave Serbia, nor did they have to leave Serbia if they wanted to stay and live there and reside there and had Yugoslav citizenship, of course, before that, quite normally as JNA officers?

A. Yes, Your Honours, but Vojislav Seselj stated publicly that all officers should be replaced who were Muslims and Croats, who stayed on occupying their positions in the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that is what was done.

Q. That is not what was done. That's my first point. And secondly, whether Seselj said that or not, you can ask him. You can ask Seselj yourself. I don't know, I can't say.

You mentioned, as this is your speciality, your profession, you dealt with logistics and materiel and equipment and so on, that the materiel and equipment was left in Bosnia-Herzegovina when the army withdrew. They left their equipment and for example, in Slovenia the army took everything away. Do you know that that is absolutely not true? And that nothing was taken out of Slovenia once the army left.

A. Your Honours, the units of the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew from Slovenia and also from the Republic of Croatia. In Banja Luka, on the railway line, army railway line, I would see 43 truckloads of military materiel, weapons, et cetera, being taken away. Even office tables. It was miserly to watch.

Q. You're talking about the pulling out of the JNA units, are you?

A. Yes. ²²³¹³

Q. When they relocated?

A. Yes.

Q. That's another matter. Now, do you know, because you were in Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time, that the ratio of Serbs at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina or the relationship towards the pulling out of this equipment was such that their attitude towards it was that they were ready even to enter into a conflict and clash with members of the JNA in order to prevent any kind of pulling out of military materiel and equipment because they thought themselves to be under threat? Now, were they under threat or were they not? Tell me, Mr. Selak.

A. They were not under threat. They were not in jeopardy. It was politics, all politics, waged by you from Belgrade and the politics of the SDS.

Q. Not to go back to the transcript here, I'm just here to ask you and I want to ask you whether you know about this fact because I was quoting from an UNPROFOR report, in fact, and it was on the basis of that report that the UN Secretary-General compiled his own report and submitted it to the Security Council on the 30th of May, 1992, in which it states quite specifically, it indicates the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina and indicates the problems that they're having with the blockade of the barracks on the part of the Muslims. And it also points, that same report by the UN Secretary-General, points to the fact that the Army of Republika Srpska was not under the control of Belgrade. And it also indicates that there was the presence of the Croatian army. Are you aware of that Mr. Selak? Do you know about that? ²²³¹⁴

A. Your Honours, the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army from Bosnia-Herzegovina of 86.000, 40.000 men left to Serbia and Montenegro. And the rest -- the people that stayed on were the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka; the 2nd Krajina Corps, which was established in Western Bosnia, Petrovac, Bihac, Drvar, et cetera; the Eastern Bosnian Corps, which was formed from the 17th Corps of the JNA in Tuzla; and part of the 12th Corps of Novi Sad; the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; the former Sarajevo 4th Corps; and part of the 14th corps. The Drina corps was partially from Uzice, and the Herzegovina Corps was the 13th Rijeka Corps. All the materiel and equipment, Your Honours, all the weapons and equipment and men stayed on in these corps. They just changed their names. It was no longer the Yugoslav People's Army. It became known as the Army of Republika Srpska and its corps.

In Banja Luka, for example, the corps changed its name. The 5th Krajina Corps changed its name on the 18th of May to become the 1st Krajina Corps.

Q. Mr. Selak --

A. That's the truth of it, the truth of the matter.

Q. Mr. Selak, I don't want to quote all the corps and brigades, including the Mujahedin brigades and others which your army had over there, but everything that you've just enumerated and quoted, is it true or is it not that everything you've just said, they were all units of the Army of Republika Srpska?

A. Yes, they were all units of the army of Republika Srpska. That's right. I have a map. I can give you some names if you like, the names of ²²³¹⁵ commanders and so on.

Q. And all those commanders, were they from Republika Srpska, all of them? General Talic, for example. He's just died. Was he an honourable General? Was he from Republika Srpska? Did he perhaps come from Belgrade?

A. What about his assistance for moral guidance, Colonel Vukovic from Serbia? I have a diagram, a schematic of the officers after the 18th of May in the Banja Luka Corps, all the names saying who -- stating who was from Bosnia-Herzegovina and who was from Montenegro.

Q. And why shouldn't somebody have the right to stay on of their own free will if they thought they could help the people to defend themselves. Why shouldn't they have that right? Did somebody order them to stay on or did they all stay on because they wanted to?

A. Well, the order was that they weren't allowed to leave their positions arbitrarily.

Q. All arbitrariness is prohibited in any army, and you know that full well because you're an army man yourself. Arbitrariness is always prohibited in the army.

Do you know that the Presidency of Yugoslavia on the 4th of May, 1992 passed a decision according to which all JNA members who were citizens of the FRY by the 19th of May should withdraw from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the latest? That was the deadline?

A. Not all members, Your Honour, but soldiers doing their militaries service there and they did indeed return. They were young men of 18. They were doing their regular military service over there. It did not ^{22316 BLANK PAGE 22317} apply to officers.

Q. All right. If that's your answer, I don't want to argue the point with you.

Do you know that the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina on that same day when that decision was passed on the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it donated the FRY and the JNA as the aggressor?

A. Those were the facts. That was fact.

Q. And do you know that the leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 6th, that is to say after the 6th of April when it was recognised, the day that Hitler bombed Belgrade, issued an order on the blockade of JNA barracks and facilities and not to respond to the call-up for mobilisation? Is that how it was?

A. No. A blockade was impossible. As to the proclamation of the mobilisation call, that is correct, but a blockade was impossible because the army had might on its side.

Q. Did you want to say there was no blockade?

A. There was no blockade in the real sense of the word. Perhaps blockades of smaller facilities but not of units, no.

Q. And do you know that those decisions had as their repercussions the fact that the military materiel belonging to the JNA couldn't be pulled out? They had a lot of difficulty pulling out materiel and equipment.

A. That's not true.

Q. All right. Now, did you hear, for example, the attack on the military column in Sarajevo? ²²³¹⁸

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that in Dobrovoljacka this was perpetrated by the members of the Green Berets?

A. That's just one case.

Q. For the town of Sarajevo I'm talking about.

A. Your Honours, that was just one case in point.

Q. Well, it was led by the head of the Territorial Defence of the day, Hasan Efendic was his name. Isn't that right?

A. I don't know who led that, who was in command. I know about the incident but I don't want to say who headed it. I don't know.

Q. Well, do you know that the command post was precisely in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the building itself?

A. Well, what did you expect? Did you expect him to put his head on the block for it to be cut off? People were defending -- preparing to defend themselves, to defend the republic and the population.

Q. Is that why they attacked the military column pulling out of Sarajevo?

JUDGE MAY: This will be a last question and answer. Yes. Yes, Mr. Selak.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Do you know this, that by -- through the attack on the volunteer column in Dobrovoljacka Street that it was Ejub Ganic who was in command?

A. Your Honours, the column that was attacked, the official information was that it was taking flour, carrying flour and other things, ²²³¹⁹ not military materiel. But what it was doing was carrying weapons, transporting weapons.

JUDGE MAY: I said that it's time. It's 2.00. We have to adjourn now.

Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Just to answer Judge Kwon's earlier question regarding a particular exhibit. Two exhibits tendered today, 464, tabs 12 and 15, in the text of both of those documents they refer to a confidential order 2268-1 of December 1992. That particular exhibit was tendered on the 6th of February this year as 387, tab 20. Now, under that tab there are two orders, 2268-1 is the second order that's contained in tab 20 of 387.

And two minor matters. Mr. Selak has referred to a table from the Brdjanin and Talic case. That, I believe, Your Honours, is 463, tab 2, which was tendered earlier today.

And finally, Mr. Selak has also referred several times to an ethnic key, and he seems to be looking at a printed document. Could I ask that arrangements be made that he provide a photocopy to myself, the accused, the amici so we can review it overnight and make a determination whether it's appropriately tendered as an exhibit?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning, please.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.