²³³³⁹

Monday, 30 June 2003

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: IMRA AGOTIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] General, you were saying that the time you're testifying about, that at that time there was no Albanian nationalism. Is that what you said?

A. Perhaps there was, but not in the extent to which certain information media depicted it, and public information system.

Q. Do you know how many tens of thousands of Serbs and Montenegrins, under pressure, had to leave Kosovo in precisely that period of time, from, say, 1980 to 1990, following the demonstrations after Tito's death in 1980 and onwards up to 1990?

A. Well, yes, I do know that people were leaving. Now, whether all that was due to pressure, I would say that a very small portion was due to that compared to what the information media would have us believe.

Q. You know nothing about the killings, the torchings, the destruction of churches and cemeteries, things of that kind, all forms of looting, pressure, violence, due to which tens of thousands of Serbs left Kosovo at that time? ²³³⁴⁰

A. As to specific cases, I really don't know except for the ones that were highlighted by the media. I was only in Kosovo officially once. Otherwise, I didn't travel there. So I can't really testify and say how far that is true. But based on the talks and conversations I had with a certain number of people from Kosovo, both Serbs and Montenegrins who were members of the JNA units there, and on the basis of the conversations I had with many Albanians too, I arrived at the conclusion that, as my own assessment, that this problem was far exaggerated to the advantage of the Serbs; that is to say it was shown that pressure was brought to bear on them and that that was the reason for which they left.

Q. All right. But you're talking about -- actually, you say that you don't know much about it, but nonetheless, you say on page 4, paragraph 3 of your statement, that there was an expansion of Serb nationalism and as an example you quote the relics of St. Sava that were shown publicly; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who St. Sava was, in fact?

A. Yes, I do know who Sveti Sava, St. Sava was.

Q. Rastko Nemanjic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. He was the founder of the Serb church and Serb schools.

A. Yes. And the highest Serb saint.

Q. Well, tell me, please, do you think he might have been a Serb nationalist, for example?

A. Well, I don't know whether nationalism existed in its present ²³³⁴¹ format in his time but I knew that his bones and relics were used, were made use of during those years in order to significantly revive Serb nationalism on the territory of the former Yugoslavia. More in the eastern reaches.

Q. All right. Now, was that nationalism, this particular activity on the part of the church, would you say, or was it the nurturing and fostering of national cultural traditions?

A. I would say that it was nationalism taking the form of nurturing traditions and reviving memories and recollections of those first days of the first Serbian state during the days of St. Sava himself.

Q. Ah, fine, General. Very well. Now, as you quote this particular example with Sveti Sava, do you have any other nationalist ideas or ideals that were used which you as an intelligence officer of the JNA became aware of?

A. Yes, I do. And I wasn't an intelligence officer; I was a security officer, or as it was called at the time, officer for security. Those are two essentially different functions within the JNA.

Q. All right. Tell me this, please, very briefly: How did you as a Yugoslav officer see the victory of the HDZ at the elections in Croatia?

A. I saw it as the victory of a party that put forward its programme and platform and for which most of the citizens of the Republic of Croatia opted for in democratic fashion at the democratic elections.

Q. Well, do you know which ideals the HDZ put forward at the time, what were the ideas it advocated?

A. Yes, I do know that. First of all, it strove for a greater degree ²³³⁴² or, rather, the reconstitution of the SFRY. That means for different relations within the SFRY.

Q. And did Croatia in any way, in your opinion, at that time, was it degraded within the SFRY in any way?

A. Yes, correct, it was.

Q. In what way?

A. They were different times compared to when the SFRY under a different name in -- in 1945 was constituted. And the international circumstances and situation was different too. Everything was different. The entire socio-political development at the time was different, and some constituent elements of that SFRY left the political arena, and it was normal for the country to be reconstructed and reconstituted.

Q. All right. And are you aware of the positions taken in 1989 by the HDZ even before the elections with respect to the Independent State of Croatia and so on, things along that line?

A. Perhaps there were things of that kind just as they were in every movement. There must -- there were probably individuals who had unacceptable positions for a bourgeois supervision and constitution of a sovereign and democratic state, but these are my phenomena with respect to the overall desire on the part of the Croatian people and the people who opted for the HDZ party at that time.

Q. As head of security of the 5th Air Force Corps yourself, did you know that in September 1990, in Petrijevci, in the old house of artist Mestrovic, that during the night weapons were being handed out to HDZ members secretly, clandestinely, and part of them were handed over to ²³³⁴³ Mercep for Vukovar, another part went to Orahovac and Baranja?

A. I didn't know about that. It wasn't the area of responsibility of the 5th Corps.

Q. So you didn't communicate amongst themselves, and you didn't receive feedback information as to what was happening on the territory of Yugoslavia as a whole.

A. We did exchange a certain amount of information, but again others not. In this particular case and cases of this kind, the security service of the JNA was not in charge of supervising the civil institutions but only dealt with state security organs and institutions.

Q. All right. If you talk about the military as an officer for security yourself, do you know that in Slovenia at that time, in order to secede, for the purposes of secession, a large quantity of weapons were imported illegally and that formations were set up and that when the attack on the JNA was launched, 40 innocent young men were killed.

JUDGE MAY: Let's -- rather than have this recital, let's see whether the witness knows anything about this. You've asked other witnesses about it, it's constant repetition.

General, can you help? Do you know anything about Slovenia? Was that part of your area of responsibility?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As you can see, Mr. May, this does come under the responsibility and competence of Mr. Agotic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²³³⁴⁴

Q. Now, do you know about the death of these completely innocent young men who had come to do their military service in Slovenia?

A. Yes. I read about that in the media.

Q. You know nothing more than that?

A. Nothing more than that. And at that time, I was suspended from duty before that.

Q. Tell me, did the JNA wish to preserve Yugoslavia?

A. Correct.

Q. And was the preservation of Yugoslavia a responsibility and obligation pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia?

A. According to the constitution that was in force at the time, that was the JNA's duties and that was one of its tasks.

Q. On page 4, you go on to say that the JNA considered the election of new nationalist authorities in Slovenia and Croatia, that this led to the -- would lead to the break-up of Yugoslavia; is that right?

A. I don't know whether I say nationalist authorities, but I say the new power and authority that be in the republics of Slovenia and Croatia.

Q. Well, all right. Do we not doubt that the JNA made a correct assessment of what would happen when these parties came into power, looking at Slovenia and Croatia?

A. Basically when you look at it from this point in time, then the introduction of a multi-party system into the SFRY without adaptation on the part of the socio-political system of the day, without its adapting to the new system, that is true. But who failed to allow this adaptation to take place in line with the new conditions that were created? ²³³⁴⁵

Q. Well, let's leave that question for another opportunity, but you go on to say that in that sense the SSNO issued orders that instructed that Yugoslavia must survive at all costs, must be preserved.

A. Correct.

Q. And you say that the Slovenian and Croatian leadership --

JUDGE MAY: Have you got a copy of your statement, General?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Don't refer to it unless you want to, but if you do, it may assist in following the questions and deal with any discrepancies there may be.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that the Slovenian and Croatian leadership, knowing about the Secretariat of Defence order, began to prepare for what they felt would be an attempt, et cetera. That's what you say in that paragraph; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. What were they preparing for, in fact?

A. As soon as they -- as soon as the JNA quite obviously had turned towards one side, favoured one side in the conflict on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, that is to say the Serb side and the Montenegrin side, at that point in time the logics of the whole situation was that the other ethnic groups that were jeopardised and did not have the JNA behind them to support them had to prepare for their self-defence.

Q. Wasn't it quite the reverse? Wasn't it acts of violence that were ²³³⁴⁶ started and launched precisely against the JNA and against the Serb population in Croatia? If we take it in chronological order.

A. When we take it in chronological order, then the first rallies and the first demonstrations and intimidation started out from Serbia and Montenegro, and then the logics of the situation was that the other republics - Croatia, et cetera - were in a situation to begin to prepare themselves, to prepare their own interests.

Q. Wasn't the -- weren't the rallies in Serbia and Montenegro held for Serbian and Montenegrin issues, without mentioning any other republics or problems outside Serbia and Montenegro? Isn't that how it was?

A. That is partially correct, because the rallies flew over -- flowed over into other areas of the former Yugoslavia. They spilled over into Croatia, as you well know, and the desire for rallies, which were known as rallies of truth, were to have been organised on the territory of Croatia and Slovenia. So what is this other than an export of one nationalism to other areas, territories?

Q. When you say the rally of truth, that was the intention of the Serbs from Kosovo, to go to Ljubljana and familiarise the Slovenes with their sufferings and the pressures they were exposed to. Why do you consider that to be nationalism?

A. Those were just the vehicles. Only some were individuals from Kosovo. However, in addition to them, there were tens of thousands of other nationalist-minded people who came with them, so that these were not people from Kosovo only. Kosovo was just used -- utilised for that purpose. That is how this was seen in the territories of Croatia and ²³³⁴⁷ Slovenia.

Q. Tell me, General, are you aware as to what happened with the adoption of the constitution of Croatia when the Serbs were thrown out of the constitution as a constituent people and that many were fired from the public service, from the police, even the health service, and there were protests against this in the first place?

A. That is partially so. There were individual cases along those lines, but this was not a generalised phenomenon. I can guarantee that with me in the Croatian army there were a large numbers of Serbs and Montenegrins who, from the very outset until the very end fought within the ranks of the Croatian army.

Q. And do you know what was happening not only on the political arena but also when we're talking about violence, do you know anything about the activities of Branimir Glavas, Mercep, and the others who created a climate and an atmosphere that was based on brutal violence towards individuals and groups of other ethnicities? Isn't that so, General?

A. No, it isn't. That is partially true. But the violence started out already in the physical sense in the areas in Croatia which were predominantly populated by Serbs. To be specific, in August 1990, the first barricades were set up in those areas and not in areas which were predominantly populated by Croats.

Q. Is a barricade an offensive means of combat?

A. A barricade is just the beginning leading up to offensive activities. And this proved to be true because they were followed by offensive activities. ²³³⁴⁸ Now, if I set up a barricade and do not allow the legally elected authorities to exercise their functions in that area, so surely that is offensive.

Q. But, General, tell me, do you consider Branimir Glavas to be an extremist or not?

A. I would rather not comment on Mr. Glavas.

Q. Is it true that in Croatia, towards the end of 1990 and the beginning of 1991, paramilitary formations were set up by parties and that there was large-scale illegal arming? Is that true or not?

A. That is partially true. That is, Croatia was preparing itself for defence but not for attack.

Q. Was anyone threatening to attack Croatia?

A. The threats came from the rallies that were spilling over into Croatia, and the demands coming from Serbia in relation to Croatia, that is, for a part of its territory to be seceded from it whereby the territorial integrity of the Republic of Croatia was in jeopardy.

Q. Do you have a single such demand from Serbia? Are you aware of a single such demand from Serbia?

A. Yes, I'm aware of 101, only at this moment I'm just mentioning the demand of General Dusan Pekic and the people holding rallies in Petrova Gora and all over Croatia.

Q. You're referring to General Dusan Pekic who comes from that area and who was a retired general at the time.

A. Yes, and who has been living in Belgrade for the last 50 years.

Q. Many generals have been living in Belgrade. But he was a retiree, ²³³⁴⁹ and he came from that area; isn't that right?

A. I know also of the case of Seselj who held rallies in Eastern Slavonia and Baranja - probably elsewhere too, just now I can't remember - and he was not born in the territory of Croatia.

Q. No, he was born in the territory of Bosnia, that is true. And do you know everything about these illegal channels of arming organised by Spegelj, and do you know anything about the Kikas affair?

A. Regarding the so-called illegal channels used by Spegelj, I don't know everything about them. As for Kikas, I know as much as appeared in the mass media regarding his plane, what he brought with it, and when.

Q. When?

A. Sometime in September 1991. To be more specific, in mid-September. But this was the period when war was already raging in the territory of Croatia.

Q. And do you know that these weapons that were illegally imported in those days were used only in 1991 to kill or to cause the disappearance of 600 Serbs from Sisak, hundreds from Split, Sibenik, Zadar, Gospic, Karlovac and even Zagreb itself? I'm just listing the towns in which --

JUDGE MAY: We'll just go through this with a bit of care. You put these allegations, very serious ones indeed, to question whether there is any truth in them, and the witness should have a chance to answer. It's alleged that 600 Serbs -- just a moment. 600 Serbs, it's said, disappeared from Sisak. Is there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about that, Your Honour, Mr. President. ^{23350 BLANK PAGE 23351}

JUDGE MAY: It may be untrue and propaganda. Hundreds are described as disappearing from Split. Is there any truth in that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That area was not within my area of work, so I cannot testify about that.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to make sure that these matters are properly dealt with instead of general allegations being put out without the witness having a chance to answer.

The other areas are Gospic and Karlovac. Can you help as to them?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same applies, Mr. President; I don't know about that area.

JUDGE MAY: And Zagreb.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a military commander, and I am not aware of any possible activities that may have been engaged in by someone else, but I do know that after the war, data were presented which were significantly exaggerated. There were individual cases of persecution, there is no doubt about that. There's the well-known case of the Zec family in Zagreb, which is being tried before Croatian courts to this day, but the number that is referred to here I'm convinced is over -- is exaggerated, though I don't know about it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You don't have the information but you're sure that it is not true. But can we agree, General, these places like Sisak, Split, Sibenik, Zadar, Karlovac, Zagreb are not places in which Serbs held any rallies or set up any roadblocks or barricades, but all these towns were under the control of the Croatian authorities, weren't they? ²³³⁵²

A. Yes. Those towns were under the control of the Croatian authorities, and in those towns there were no rallies.

Q. How, then, do you explain these rather large-scale killings in those towns from that period?

JUDGE MAY: If true. He doesn't accept it, so you can't put it as though it's true.

There's no need to answer that question. It's not accepted.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, General. Are you claiming that all that I have said is not true?

A. I'm claiming that I'm not familiar with those data and that I learnt about them from subsequent reports in the mass media.

Q. If you're talking about the mass media, do you know that the Zagreb Novosti, a newspaper, on the 15th of March, 2002, which means last year - it's a Zagreb newspaper - published data about a collection centre at the Zagreb Velesajam, or fairgrounds, and facts related to this? Do you know about that? Do you know about it contemporaneously or did you learn about it from the newspapers?

A. I read about it in the papers. I didn't know about it at the time.

Q. So at the time, you knew nothing about a camp at the Zagreb fairgrounds.

A. Nothing.

Q. Do you know now that such a camp existed and that many people disappeared in it? ²³³⁵³

JUDGE MAY: He said he read it in the paper. There's no point asking him about it. You might as well call anybody to say they read it in the paper. Let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have to respond to your observation that I could ask anyone about the papers. Mr. Agotic held a very senior position, and he must have known these facts.

JUDGE MAY: He told you he didn't. He read about it in the paper is the answer. When he says that, there's no point arguing with him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you remember that a newspaper called Hrvatska Ljevica published the list of 107 killed Serbs in Sisak? The names. Not just the number but the names of 107 killed Serbs in Sisak.

A. I never read that newspaper.

Q. On page 5, paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that I kept saying that Yugoslavia should be preserved. Is that what you said?

A. More or less, yes. I can't find the exact quotation that you have read out.

Q. Well, I'm quoting the second paragraph on page 5 of your own statement.

A. Correct. That is what I stated as is written there.

Q. Very well. Your president, Stjepan Mesic, when he was sitting where you are sitting now, said that I wanted to destroy Yugoslavia. Now, tell me, please, what is your opinion, what you said in your statement or what your current boss now says, Mr. Mesic? ²³³⁵⁴

JUDGE MAY: He cannot comment, even if that's right, and I don't recollect that part of the evidence, but even if it's right, the witness can't comment on what some other witness said.

Now, you've seen what you've written in your statement, General. Is that right or not, as far as you're concerned?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is right, but if we take into consideration the whole sentence, that is from the comma to the full stop.

JUDGE MAY: Just finish. You were going to add something.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant was the rest of the sentence reads, "... and also that all Serbs must live in one state." That gives a completely different aspect to the previous part of this same sentence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, please read out the whole sentence so we understand exactly what it says here.

A. "Vasiljevic was operating in accordance with Milosevic's options because Milosevic kept saying that Yugoslavia must be preserved, and also that all Serbs must live in one unified state."

Q. Weren't all Serbs living in the SFRY?

A. Yes, they were. All were living in the SFRY.

Q. And all the Muslims and all the Croats and all the other South Slavs were living in the SFRY.

A. Let me correct myself. The vast majority of Serbs, Muslims, and all others lived in SFRY. We all have our own national minorities coming from other parts of Yugoslavia. ²³³⁵⁵

Q. Yes, that's quite correct. That applies to Serbs, Croats, and everyone else. And quite a number abroad as part of the diaspora. That is not at issue. But the assessment of the JNA that the Croatian and Slovenian leadership - this is on page 5, paragraph 3 - would use force, was that assessment by the JNA correct?

A. No, it wasn't.

Q. How do you mean?

A. The assessment that they would use force, which was an erroneous assessment, in the period from 1990 until the first half of 1991 in order to secede, this led to the position that the republic leadership in the SFRY, in this case the Serbian leadership, should be supported because it was in favour of preserving Yugoslavia, even in a smaller -- of a smaller size.

Q. I'm asking you something else. Let me reword that question, because you say here that their assessment was that they would use force. In view of this assessment, was the order to transfer weapons of the TO to JNA warehouses a logical one? Was this done in all the republics?

A. It was logical from the standpoint of the leadership that had sided with one party in the conflict, but it was illogical and unconstitutional to disarm one or two of the constituent nations of the former SFRY.

Q. General, you know very well that the weapons of the TO in all the republics were placed in JNA warehouses in Serbia as well and in Macedonia and in Montenegro. There were even deputy questions addressed in the parliament of Serbia as to why this was being done. Are you aware of ²³³⁵⁶ that?

A. Yes, I do know that the weapons of the Territorial Defence in all the republics were fully at the disposal of the leadership of the Territorial Defence. In Croatia and Slovenia, from May 1992, this was not the case. As for the other republics, I cannot say for sure.

Q. So you do not know that this was carried out in all the republics without any discrimination whatsoever?

A. At that point in time when this order was issued, I didn't know that. That is how this was done in the former SFRY outside Croatia and Slovenia. However, from what I learnt later on, I see that that was not so. In Bosnia, the weapons were not seized from the Territorial Defence. Now, whether they were in Serbia and Montenegro, I don't know.

Q. Did any of the representatives of the Serbs anywhere in the former Yugoslavia threaten that the JNA would be the target of Serb attacks?

A. I don't know that.

Q. But you say on page 5, paragraph 5 of your statement, that the main task of the second department of the counter-intelligence service of the air force in Zagreb was to arm the Serbs in Croatia. Is that what you claim?

A. Correct.

Q. You say that you received information from a JNA member who was leaving, or some members who were leaving the JNA; is that right?

A. I got this information from them, and I also got the information from the person who was at the head of that particular detachment, the KOG detachment that I mentioned previously. ²³³⁵⁷

Q. All right. Tell me, did you see these instructions to the effect that these Serbs should be armed and you say that they -- reports of that kind came into the security department?

A. I didn't say they came into the department, but they came from the security department.

Q. I see. I put my -- I misspoke then. From the department.

A. But those instructions or, rather, oral orders were conveyed orally, verbally, as far as I was informed, from people -- the people that I mentioned earlier on.

Q. All right. Now, take a look at page 8 of your statement, paragraph 1, because it follows on from what we were discussing and the order of the SSNO and the Chief of the General Staff that all weapons of the Territorial Defence be transferred to JNA depots. Were both Serbs and Croats disarmed on a footing of equality on that basis? And take a look at page 8, paragraph 1, of what you say there. Were they equally disarmed?

A. I'm not quite clear on what you mean.

JUDGE MAY: Would the legal officer just approach the bench, please.

Yes. We've found it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the units, you say there were mostly young officers from the 5th Corps, and more than 70 per cent of them were Serbs. That's what you say.

A. Correct. ²³³⁵⁸

Q. So on the basis of these decisions to disarm, were the Serbs and Croats equally disarmed, to equal measure? What was the object of the order to take the weapons out of the hands of civilians which could have come into conflict amongst themselves? What was the intention? Was it a good intention on the part of the army to prevent a conflict or not?

A. That is just one-sided. Who was disarmed were the legal organs of Croatia. That's who was disarmed. But other weapons from JNA depots were distributed, on the other hand, among Serb villages. So that is the sense of what was going on at that time.

Q. Well, did you see anybody's order to the effect that this weaponry should be distributed among the villages?

A. I said that the man who received that order, that's who I heard it from, and he was very worried and so was I at that time. So that is where I got the information from, and those orders were conveyed orally, by word of mouth.

And a second thing that was common knowledge is that at that time in the Croatian press, the Croatian papers wrote about this and it was never denied by the JNA, that two members of the JNA had been arrested carrying full truckloads of weapons in Eastern Slavonia, and they were distributing the weapons among the Serb villages.

Q. All right. Tell me who arrested them.

A. They were arrested by members of the MUP of the Republic of Croatia.

Q. Do you know that when Candic testified here he said that they were individual actions on the part of police or military commanders taking ²³³⁵⁹ things into their own hands? You never saw an order coming from the SSNO or the General Staff or anybody else; isn't that right?

A. No, I did not see an order. I've already explained why.

Q. All right. Tell me this: In the other department, were there officers who were ethnic Croats?

A. Yes, there were two of which one left the JNA and moved to Belgrade. Later on, he was put on trial in Belgrade, and he was given a prison sentence of three and a half years. The second one stepped down from the JNA in the autumn of 1991.

Q. All right. Tell me this, please: Did the authorities in Croatia, were they at the time -- did they have a friendly relationship and attitude towards your units?

A. You mean the JNA units?

Q. Yes, the JNA units, because you were a JNA colonel at that time.

A. Yes, they were well disposed towards us.

Q. Did you have any tasks, assignments of any kind as a security officer with respect to protecting your units and everything that went on, everything that came under your duties and tasks?

A. Yes. I had the classical type of duty to protect units.

Q. All right, then. Officers who left the JNA, because as you said, the structure underwent change, did anybody throw them out of the JNA or did they leave of their own free will and thereby change the structure of the JNA itself?

A. There were two processes. Up until the time I left on the 2nd of July, 1991, a part of the so-called unreliables, unreliable officers were ²³³⁶⁰ replaced from their posts, and after that, people followed suit and tabled their own requests to leave the JNA and they were granted.

Q. So independently, they would ask to leave the JNA and did so; is that it?

A. At the beginning of the Slovenian war and in the course of it, people would make these requests themselves and they would receive positive answers quickly. They would be allowed to leave.

Q. But they tabled their resignation of their own free will; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that it was just thanks to General Tus who was at that time the chief of the air force that you were able to retain your post in the 5th Corps; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And then you say that your superior, Colonel Rakocevic, did his best to have you replaced from that post because, as you say, he wanted in key positions to have people who were, in his opinion, reliable; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Does that mean that he didn't trust you?

A. Well, I would say that that is so, yes. He never told me as much, but judging by his actions, I came to the conclusion that that was so.

Q. And was that because -- actually, in view of the fact that as you say he was bent on the idea of preserving Yugoslavia, that he knew full well that you yourself weren't? Was that the reason? ^{23361 BLANK PAGE 23362}

A. That is not true. It's not true that he was in favour of Yugoslavia and I wasn't. Both of us were in favour of Yugoslavia, however, a different variant of Yugoslavia and with different options for it.

Q. Tell me, please, General - we have to try and save time - did you directly or indirectly participate in the blockade of your barracks and your soldiers? What were your barracks and soldiers until a little while ago? Or, rather, did you know that all the barracks had been blocked in Croatia?

A. Yes, I am aware of that.

Q. Well, did you take part in it?

A. I did not take part directly, but indirectly as a commander of the National Guards Corps at the time, yes.

Q. And was it under your immediate command that the JNA barracks in Bjelovar were blocked, and the ammunitions depot in Bjelovar as well as the barracks in Gospic, the barracks in other places as well?

A. Both these blockades were effected while I was the commander of the National Guards.

Q. That means that that was under your command, General, that this was conducted.

A. You could put it that way, yes.

Q. Do you know that during these blockades and attacks on the barracks 36 soldiers and officers of the JNA were killed? Are you aware of that?

A. I don't know the exact figure of persons killed but I do know that ²³³⁶³ there were casualties on both sides, killed and wounded.

Q. And do you recall that it was precisely those men under your command, up in front a line of officers detained -- soldiers detained; in addition to the four officers, the brigade commander was also killed?

A. I know that the brigade commander lost his life, but in what way, I don't know.

Q. Do you know an event that took place on the Koranski bridge when 13 TO members were slaughtered and massacred, Serbs?

A. I do know of that particular case. I got to know about it later on from the information media and the trial that was held of the suspects considered to have been the perpetrators and involved in the case.

Q. Do you yourself have anything to do with that case at all?

A. No, I don't.

Q. And tell me, please, what duties did you perform as an officer of the National Guards Corps? You were at the head of the National Guards Corps, were you not, General?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true that within the composition of the National Guards Corps already in the first half of 1991, there were about 500 different foreign members, foreigners from different countries making up the composition?

A. I took over my duties on the 10th of August, 1991, and I do not know which men were taken into membership by that time.

Q. But do you know that they were there?

A. I do know that there were some people from the diaspora, Croats. ²³³⁶⁴ I also know that there were a large number of foreign nationals in the National Guards Corps units later on during the war.

Q. All right, and how come you as a -- how did you react as a former JNA officer when you got to learn of the fact that foreigners took part in the barracks, JNA barracks and the killings that went on of the soldiers?

A. I didn't feel this to be at all illogical because they were under the command of Croatian officers, junior and senior, and they had placed themselves in the formations which were in charge of defending the Republic of Croatia.

Q. Do you know that within Paraga's HOS units, a certain Scott [phoen] and Major Raj, Captain John Thomson, Lieutenant Dave Hoskins, they were -- gave interviews to Anthony Rogers, a journalist, about the atrocities carried out by HOS. Do you remember that?

A. No, I did not read those articles.

Q. As a National Guards Corps officer or, rather, the head of the National Guards Corps, the chief, were you acquainted with the activities of the paramilitary formations in the area of Vukovar, for example, in 1991? Let's take that area.

A. I was partially informed that there were certain attempts at organisation, and some were successful outside the National Guards Corps but that was the beginning of the war and that was the logics of the formation of an army. Relatively very quickly all these units were placed under a united, unified command of the Croatian army.

Q. And do you know, in connection with the activities of these paramilitary formations, happened in Vukovar in July 1991 before the ²³³⁶⁵ conflict escalated?

A. No. I'm not aware of that.

Q. Do you know at all any of Paraga's activities in Vukovar? Are you aware of them?

A. I don't know that Paraga was in Vukovar at all.

Q. I'm talking about his members, the members of his units.

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. I see. You don't know about that. Fine. And did you have any contacts with the representatives of paramilitary formations from the area?

A. Yes. Some parents contacted me whose sons had been killed in the area, and they asked me to help in finding the dead bodies. As to other contacts with these units in the Vukovar area, I did not have any.

Q. And do you know who Marin Vidic is, nicknamed Billy?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you know who Ferdinand Jukic, nicknamed Yea, was?

A. I do know him, yes.

Q. Did you ever meet these two men?

A. I met both of them. With Jukic, before the fall of Vukovar, and I met Billy, or Vidic Billy, after returning from captivity.

Q. And do you know Vidic's statement about the atrocities that were carried out precisely in Vukovar by those who had been appointed by the Defence Ministry of Croatia to take care of the defence of Vukovar?

A. I read about that in his interviews later on. Actually, it was quite recently that I read about that. ²³³⁶⁶

Q. And is it true that when you had your meetings with Vidic and Jukic in Zagreb with respect to their requests made to the Defence Ministry that officers be placed at their disposal to command the operations against the JNA -- that's right, isn't it? That's what happened?

A. As to Vidic Billy, I did not meet him in Zagreb on that occasion, but a large number of representatives from Vukovar came, and they asked aid and assistance both in manpower and materiel and equipment. They came to the headquarters of the National Guards Corps to ask for that.

Q. All right. And is it true that you gave an assignment to Mile Dedakovic, nicknamed Jastreb, and Branko Borkovic too, that you gave them assignments?

A. As far as I recall, on the 28th or 29th of August, 1991, I issued an order dispatching Mile Dedakovic, Branko Borkovic, and another man, another young lieutenant who was in the engineers corps, to assist in Vukovar defence.

Q. All right, and do you know that this particular Mile Dedakovic, nicknamed Jastreb, whom you sent yourself to lead the operations in Vukovar, is directly responsible for the killing of several hundred Serb civilians but also soldiers too?

A. No, I'm not aware of that.

JUDGE MAY: Well, is there any truth in that sort allegation, as far as you know, Mr. Agotic? It's put by this accused in his usual way. No evidence of it, as far as I know. Do you know anything? Do you know of any evidence of this? If you had heard of it, would you have done ²³³⁶⁷ something about it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I took over as commander of the Guards Corps, from Vukovar many envoys were coming with the request, as I have already said, for assistance. At the time, they told me about the highly complicated situation in Vukovar, saying that they were poorly organised, poorly armed, while being surrounded on all sides by JNA units and that from the barracks compound that was situated in Vukovar there was frequent or daily shelling of Vukovar suburbs or, rather, the town of Vukovar.

On that occasion, there were expressions of dissatisfaction with the leadership of the Secretariat of National Defence of Vukovar, which was headed at the time by Mercep, the criticism being that he had badly organised things.

As for any other knowledge regarding large-scale suffering of any kind is something that I was not aware of at the time, but it should be known that up to 1.200, 1.300 poorly armed men were defending Vukovar, and it would not be logical to assume that they would be able to commit large-scale massacres in relation to the opposing side. Finally, I know that a large number of people of other ethnicities participated in the defence of Vukovar; not just Croats but also Serbs, Hungarians, Slovaks and Czechs. Therefore, it doesn't appear to me to be logical that they could have organised in this way, committed any large-scale massacres. Whether there were individual incidents, that is up to the individuals who have the specific information; I do not.

JUDGE MAY: I want to clarify the situation. Were there reports ²³³⁶⁸ of casualties at all that were being inflicted on the people of Vukovar?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were. Reports were arriving daily about dead and a large number of wounded that were filling the Vukovar Hospital, and that was the gravest problem, a shortage of medicines and the hospital beds that were overflowing with patients.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, I appreciate that you were not on the spot at the time and you couldn't know from your own direct knowledge, but are you claiming that you know nothing about the killing of several hundred Serb civilians in Vukovar? Is that what you're claiming? Just say yes or no, please.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that the barracks in Vukovar was blocked? Just say yes or no, please.

A. No.

Q. So it wasn't under blockade. Very well. Tell me then, please -- I should like to move on to a different topic now. Is it true that from the first half of 1992, a large contingent of armed forces from Croatia was situated in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. No.

Q. Do you know how many Croatian troops there were in the territory of Odzak municipality in mid-1992? And this is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. I don't know. I can only comment on the situation regarding the Croatian air force because I was its commander at the time and I know about that.

Q. Very well. We'll come to that too. And are you familiar with a ²³³⁶⁹ document of the 14th of June, 1992, in the command of the 2nd HVO Brigade of Odzak municipality to the effect that Serb prisoners from the military prison in Odzak, which was, I assume, under your command, be used to clean minefields, clear minefields, upon which they should be returned to the prison? Did you have occasion to see such an order?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. So you don't know anything about that, that afterwards they didn't return and so on, so I won't ask you about that. And do you know that according to data of the Yugoslav federal commission for collecting information on war crimes, in Posavina alone in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina there were 17 camps in which Serbs were detained and that they were under the direct control of the HVO?

A. No, I don't know.

Q. So you don't know anything about the presence of the Croatian army in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina as of 1992?

A. No, I don't know anything about that.

Q. Tell me, General, as the commander of the air defences, you were actively involved in the Operation Storm?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Is it true that your activities in connection with Storm were not completed when Knin fell?

A. The activities ended when the Storm operation ended, and it lasted -- as far as I can remember, it lasted 72 hours.

Q. And is it true that you monitored the movement of refugee columns containing thousands and thousands of Serbs during that operation, and are ²³³⁷⁰ you aware of shelling by your air force of those refugee columns?

A. No. I do not know that the Croatian air force shelled refugee columns.

Q. But you lost an officer, a pilot, above the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in those operations against refugee columns. Do you remember that?

A. That is not true. During Operation Storm, the Croatian air force did not have a single casualty. It had one plane damaged, which landed at Pleso airport, but not a single human casualty.

Q. And do you know that for this crime, that is the attack on refugee columns, your former colleague, Croatian Colonel Janko Bobetko, accused you of that?

A. I'm familiar with Janko Bobetko's interview, but as far as I know, he cannot accuse anyone. He can present his position, that is his right, and his opinion. But in those days he was excluded from running the operation, so that he wasn't well-informed.

Q. So what Bobetko said is not true; is that right?

A. With regard to me, it is not.

Q. But you do agree that these are very serious accusations, aren't they?

A. If they were to be true, yes, I agree, they were serious.

Q. And tell me, please, I assume that all your military archives in Croatia are accessible to you and that as a high-ranking military official, it is easy for you to familiarise yourself with the contents in those archives. ²³³⁷¹

A. I didn't hear a question. You were just making a statement.

Q. My question is, is that true?

A. In principle, I can have access to any document that I ask for.

Q. And in that context, has anyone from here asked for documents about such serious accusations as those made by Bobetko?

A. I don't know that.

Q. In view of the fact that you have the position that you have now, do you believe that there is no problem -- there would be no problems to obtain information from the archives which would disown these accusations of Bobetko's against you, General Tus, Stipetic, and the others? You know that there were various accusations there.

A. Croatia has committed itself to supply The Hague Tribunal all the documents required by it.

Q. And do you know that the Association of Refugees from the Republic of Srpska Krajina, based in Banja Luka, because of these activities, placed you on the list of war crimes responsible for Serb victims in the Storm operation in August 1995?

A. I'm not aware of that, but according to the guesswork in some yellow press, I have read that. But officially, I was never informed of any such thing.

Q. As we don't have enough time, I would just like us briefly to cover - very briefly - a few statements contained in the transcript, or the minutes, of the meeting. It says here in the presidential palace on the 23rd of August, 1995, minutes from a conversation between the president, Franjo Tudjman, with military leaders of the Republic of ^{23372 BLANK PAGE 23373} Croatia, held on the 23rd of August in the presidential palace.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This would be, Mr. May, your 01325991. This is quite a lengthy document, quite lengthy minutes, and I will quote only a couple of passages.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 3, it is stated and I quote: "The area of Petrova Gora and around it, in that area before the war, those three municipalities, as seen on this map highlighted in red, was inhabited by 4.259 [as interpreted] Croats, only 4.529 [as interpreted]." I'm quoting this. "And 26.298 Serbs, which means almost virtually vacant area and our national priority number one is to inhabit the area with Croats and to achieve a balance as far as possible." Do you remember that? You attended that meeting, as far as I can see from these minutes.

A. I don't remember that.

Q. You don't remember attending that meeting?

JUDGE MAY: General, when the accused has asked his next question about the next passage, you can look at the minutes. You can then tell us about it.

Yes, what's your next question?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have those minutes, Mr. President.

JUDGE MAY: I know. We'll get them for you. What's the next point, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am just referring here, Mr. May, to a few facts which show that this is actually ethnic cleansing. ²³³⁷⁴

JUDGE MAY: I know. You've made your point. Now, what's the next question? And then the witness can see the document.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The next question refers to Dr. Jure Radic, who says - this is page 01035995 - in Knin there were 1.600 Croats, in Srb 29, in Doljani not a single one, in Donji Lapac, 14. So these were purely Serb settlements, and this applies in particular to Srb, where there were 29 Croats, in Doljani not a single one, and in Donji Lapac 14. Isn't that right, Mr. Agotic?

A. Yes. These were predominantly Serb settlements, but I don't know why I need to comment on that in that connection. I did not attend the meeting at which the ethnic composition was analysed.

Q. This was at the meeting that you were present at. I'm only reading from that report, from those minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Have a look at the document. Let the witness look at the document.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't have the document. Could Mr. Milosevic be asked --

JUDGE MAY: No. No one has the document. Yes. Now, you say he was present at the meeting; is that right?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

JUDGE MAY: Now, General, can you tell us if you agree with that or not? Do the minutes show that you were present at the meeting?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to what I have found, Mr. President, I was present. I don't know the details, but judging from ²³³⁷⁵ what I have found about my own reporting, I stand by what I said today. This is obviously a discussion about the way that Operation Storm should be implemented, which in fact started ten days later.

JUDGE MAY: And was it -- what was the nature of the meeting? Could you remind us?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's a misunderstanding here. We're talking about a meeting which, as far as I can understand, was held, as Mr. Milosevic said, on the 23rd of August and not before Storm.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Would you give the witness your copy to make sure we're talking about the same document.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said what it was, but I can't give him a copy. I can give him one later on. All I wish to do is to discuss certain elements from the minutes, nothing more than that.

JUDGE MAY: Let him look at the document which you have.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here's the first part of the document.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let him look at it and make sure we're talking about the same document.

Now, General, is that the same document as the one you've been looking at?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by the first page, it is, because I've compared the first page. We can compare the third, page 3. Yes, that's page 3. It's the same document.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²³³⁷⁶

Q. Not to lose more time, Mr. May, if possible. General, take a look at page -- page 01326006. Just a small quotation from that. "I agree that this should be used --" 006, yes, the last digits. That's their number, the one they give us here for the pages to a document. What it says: "I agree that that should be made use of and that in that way we should make Knin Croatian as fast as possible." So this discusses the structure of the population. And then page 00316026 where it says: "Vojnic had 76 Croats and 7.300 Serbs." And then the answer is: "All right. It will be different now." I'm going to skip over the next portion. And here we have something that I've marked to remind you that you were actually there at the meeting. It is page --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please read the numbers out more slowly.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It says Colonel General Migogulz [phoen], these are the two best places for sailing.

JUDGE MAY: What is the page number? Would you read it slowly for the record.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 01326032. And I'm taking this as evidence of the fact that the witness did indeed attend the meeting. It doesn't matter otherwise, he's talking about his own opinions with respect to the airport. But he did attend the meeting, and that's not in dispute.

JUDGE MAY: Do you remember the meeting, General? ²³³⁷⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember it. It was obviously a meeting that discussed where and how the Croatian army would be deployed on the territory of Croatia.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm going to skip over a lot of this material now. Take a look at page 01326073. Tudjman is speaking, and he says, among other things, the middle paragraph on that page: "And then what you said is clear, that we should not be shallow in our thinking. Perhaps somebody saw me and when I said during my last election speech in 1990, I was a little undiplomatic and said that the borders of the -- of Croatian pretzels are untenable, of the Croatian bun are untenable, which means that we did not -- was not by chance that we created the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and the HVO and we would have applied these operations there to now. But it means it is true that never in Croatian history did a Croatian soldier control more territory than has been the case hitherto, but it is still clear that in the formal and administrative sense, we cannot have a different organisation than the one we proposed."

Therefore, is it possible, General, for you -- that you claim that the Croatian army was not on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it did not take control of the entire area that is being spoken here and the fact that the Croatian soldier never in his entire history held that much territory under his control? And you know that under the NDH there was the whole the Bosnia-Herzegovina that was included --

JUDGE MAY: I've stopped -- I've stopped you. You're making a speech. ²³³⁷⁸ Now, you've read a large section -- you've read a large section of the minutes. Let us begin by saying that.

Did President Tudjman, do you remember him saying what he's recorded as saying there? Can you remember that, General?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember all the details, but there is high probability that the quotation is correct and that that was what was said at the time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. I won't go on with that. All I want to do is, in view of the fact that you yourself said that these transcripts -- these minutes are available to you because you are advisor to the present president, so you do have access to them, and so all I wanted to do was to take a look at one of the minutes which related to -- let me just find it, find the portion I'm looking for. And amongst your collaborators and associates or, rather, his, President Tudjman denies stories going round about some sort of meetings that I had. This is on page 01515277 of these minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Now, is this the same meeting?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, it's not. But this is your number. It took place on the 7th of May in the presidential palace, and --

JUDGE MAY: 7th of May of which year, so we have it recorded.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1997. 1997.

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment while the witness finds it.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, just an information. We have these presidential notes, we have then in-house, but we have only ²³³⁷⁹ translation of parts that actually related to the witness, and those sections that are now quoted from Mr. Milosevic we have not translated here, at least not here in the courtroom, but it's --

JUDGE MAY: Have you got a copy? We will adjourn so this can be sorted out, but have you got a copy of the 7th of May, 1997?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I assume so but we have not yet found it.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I think the sensible thing would be to adjourn now, it can be found, and we will resume with questioning on it after the adjournment. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes

--- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: We've now got copies, as I hope the witness has, of the meeting of the 7th of May in the presidential palace. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think you ought to bear in mind that we're progressing fairly slowly, that is to say we're getting through these minutes slowly, so I assume you're going to give me a little more time.

JUDGE MAY: We'll see how we get on. Let's get on with it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, first, is it clear what the reason for holding this meeting was? Or, rather, let's put it in a different way: Is it true that with respect to this information meeting which was supplied by, as they say Counsel Nobilo, on the testimony of Stjepan Mesic, that this should remain confidential because they did not want it discovered that ²³³⁸⁰ this was disclosed about the confidential testimony of Mesic here with respect to something else, another trial.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I'm looking at this -- these minutes of the 7th of May. First of all, I never attended that meeting. It was with Nenad Ivankovic, Marko Rebic, according to what it says here, the names I can see, Branko Tudjen too, so that I can't tell you any more about that. I would have to read it, study it, and then give you my opinions.

Q. All right. I understand that. But would you please bear in mind the fact, in view of what you yourself confirmed, that these minutes are available to you, the transcripts of the meetings held by President Tudjman and his associates. Page 015177 [as interpreted], that page, this is what it says, and please listen to this carefully. He says of himself that Tudjman manipulated the situation and used it to his advantage and made decisions which the Sabor or parliament should decide whether the Croatian army should be engaged in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

JUDGE MAY: Which page is this? Can you help us, please?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 277 [as interpreted]. Page 11 on the minutes themselves page 11. Last digits 277.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. "But the essential point is that certain discussions we had are falsely being interpreted. Everything boils down to the fact, and you'll see that I had a meeting with Milosevic 48 times to discuss the division of Bosnia." That's what Tudjman says. And he later on acknowledges that I had a meeting at his proposal for the first time. "I had a meeting with Milosevic twice bilaterally and one together with Alija Izetbegovic, ²³³⁸¹ Milosevic and myself, and we even, and you can tell them that --"

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues]...

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, page 11 and then page 12.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Somewhere in Geneva, he goes on to say. We were together. These things repeated themselves and at the meeting we divided Bosnia and we said that there was never any discussion about the division of Bosnia, the carving up in Bosnia. But with Alija in the spring of 1992, we did discuss this. Alija -- the war was stopped, but Alija wanted to remain in Yugoslavia. And then he goes on to say that a solution was that a Serbo-Croatian meeting was reached to put an end to the war. Now, is it clear, according to all this, that your former boss Mesic testified falsely about --

JUDGE MAY: No. I'm not going to admit this. The witness was not there. It's quite impossible for him to comment on something else when he wasn't present. Now, there's no point asking him, particularly asking him to comment on some other witness's testimony. You can ask him, of course, about meetings at which he was present, but the status of these minutes of meetings at which he was not present is something we'll have to consider, and certainly that question is one which he cannot possibly answer. Yes. Have you any more questions?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I bore in mind, Mr. May, the fact that the general does have access to all these minutes and that he was able to establish what President Tudjman is saying here, to establish the correctness of it. ²³³⁸²

JUDGE MAY: No. The fact that he's got access to the minutes does not mean that he can give evidence about them. Of course if he's present that's one thing, but if not, it's quite impossible for him to comment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine, Mr. May. I take it I can't ask him anything about the minutes. But I assume that we can observe that this is the original document, the original minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Isn't that right, General?

JUDGE MAY: Does it look authentic to you?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does look authentic. And if the Croatian side disclosed it officially, then there's no reason to doubt it, in my opinion.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, General, your former superior, General Anton Tus, was the head of the standing mission of -- to NATO; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, General, the Croatian air force under your command was not only active during Operation Storm but previously as well; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And is it also true that the Croatian air force, following orders from you, became involved in the airspace above Bosnia-Herzegovina and took part there together with the Muslim forces in an operation against the Bosnian Serbs?

A. In what sense do you mean acted and took part in together with? ^{23383 BLANK PAGE 23384}

Q. Well, in the form of combat activities.

A. It is not true that it participated in combat activities together with the others.

Q. So it didn't bomb and shell the columns of Bosnian Serbs or their positions. It did not bomb this -- the forces of the Bosnian Serbs for the Muslim side?

A. No, it did not bomb on the side of the Muslim side, nor did it engage in any combat activity in the territory of Bosnia except for 1992, I believe, or perhaps 1993, I don't remember exactly. To the south of the Sava River, towards the artillery positions there, from which the settlements were being targeted on the left bank of the Sava River on Croatian territory, in fact. So on that occasion, one MiG 21 plane was shot down and the pilot killed.

Q. What was the pilot's name?

A. The pilot's name was Anton Rados.

Q. Did you use a pilot by the name of Perisin or something similar?

A. Correct.

Q. And when did you lose this other pilot in the airspace above Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. Perisin was shot down on the territory of the Republic of Croatia in the course of the -- of Operation Flash, on the 2nd of May, 1995. And his plane to this day lies on the territory of the Republic of Croatia. It was not pulled out of the area, it lies there still, and that is material proof that he was knocked down over Croatian airspace.

Q. A part of the plane fell on the territory of Croatia and another ²³³⁸⁵ part on Republika Srpska. And did you find Perisin there?

A. As far as I know -- as far as we know as to the spot the plane fell on, and he fell on actually because he was catapulted out of the plane, it was on the south bank of the Sava River. That means in Bosnia. He was catapulted from Bosnia but the plane actually crashed down on the left bank of the Sava River, which means on Croatian territory.

Q. I see, so the plane fell on Croatia and he fell in Bosnia; is that right?

A. He fell on the bent embankment. He was captured or, rather, killed, or perhaps he had already been killed as he was falling to the ground.

Q. So you don't know any precise details about that but it was in operations against the Serb forces, without a doubt?

A. Yes, that's right. Against the forces not of Republika Srpska but against the forces of the so-called army of SAO Krajina, on the left bank of the Sava River before you get to the bridge at Stare Gradiska. He was given an assignment to hit the artillery positions which were defending the bridge and targeting Croatian forces.

Q. All right, General. Now, tell me this, please: Do you know the contents of the piece of information by the security department of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna dated the 14th of September, 1993, that is to say, the time when the Croatian forces could not have been present on the territory at all?

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. Well, I'm going to read something out to you - I have the document ²³³⁸⁶ in front of me - and then I'm going to let you have a look at it. And from the document you can see it says: "As from Vitez an appeal was launched about the critical situation with regard to ammunition, we undertook to realise the -- to take steps in this matter." And then it says that a helicopter at Lovric from the headquarters of the HVO was asked to table a request for Divulje, that is to say for your own base there, that it has three seriously wounded men in Vitez and that they had to ensure helicopter transport to evacuate them. This was after the talk with Mr. Agotic, and he said let the wounded people go to Kiseljak, be taken to Kiseljak, like the other ones from Nova Bila, which means this was a code name, there were no wounded and injured persons, what you were actually doing was transporting ammunition, and that can be seen from this letter. Do you remember that?

A. During the war in Bosnia, Croatia used a transport helicopter to perform more than 100 flights with the aim of evacuating the wounded and injured from the Nova Bila area as well as Kiseljak, Vares and Travnik.

Q. Yes, I understand all that, General, but here it says quite openly that Kiseljak, Medjugorje, that an operation was there, and General Agotic took advantage of the occasion to give us this explanation as if he didn't know the background of activities of that kind. And then it goes on to state we flew at an altitude of such-and-such. We landed successfully at the exit to Busovaca, and without switching off our engines, we started unloading the ammunition. So there's no question of any wounded persons. The unloading lasted about eight minutes after which we flew off again and successfully arrived at Firule and after at Divulje. As the place of ²³³⁸⁷ unloading in Busovaca, there was no -- there were no wounded persons there, we didn't take anybody with us, and we explained to the EEC monitors that we were targeted while we were landing and so we gave up the idea, and they accepted that explanation with all seriousness. So there's no evacuation of wounded here. What this was about was an ammunitions transport. You can take a look at the document yourself.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see the document. Just a moment. Let him have it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have a look at the document -- community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO.

JUDGE MAY: General, would you first of all tell us what the date of the document is, please, if you can see one.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 14th of September, 1993. They are the same documents, both.

Mr. President, I see this document for the first time. I don't know whether it is authentic. I cannot vouch for that. And it is difficult for me, therefore, to comment all that it contains. But at Firule if the helicopter landed at Firule, then it brought the wounded. Otherwise, there was no need for it to land at Firule. So there must have been wounded, because he's reporting that he landed at Firule in Split. Now, whether in the course of these sorties which were engaged in in order to evacuate the wounded and the injured and the delivery of medicines to the hospital in Nova Bila where there was a hospital all the time throughout the war and took some other type of aid, I don't know. ²³³⁸⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But General --

JUDGE MAY: Let me clarify this. Nova Bila, remind me, is that near Vitez, or where is it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. Nova Bila is in Vitez municipality. It was a wartime hospital there.

JUDGE MAY: So it's accepted that there were helicopter flights in order to evacuate the wounded from there; is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There were more than a hundred flights to evacuate the wounded and injured.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be of assistance. This document was translated by the OTP. We have it in English too. I received it the other day from the OTP. So I would like to ask them to supply you with a copy. It is in English, the whole document.

JUDGE MAY: We will have it. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm claiming quite the opposite; that this was not evacuation of wounded, as you explained the second paragraph of this report: "It should be noted that the Kiseljak Medjugorje operation was ongoing which General Agotic took advantage of to provide such an explanation as if he was unaware of the background of these activities."

A. Mr. President, I repeat that I do not know whether the document is authentic. I'm just claiming that transport unarmed helicopters were used ²³³⁸⁹ to evacuate more than a thousand wounded and injured from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, all parts of it.

Q. Very well, General. So you're claiming that you did not deliver ammunition to your forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina in this way. Is that what you're claiming?

A. That was not my responsibility nor did I have any control over the ammunition, and that is what I'm claiming.

Q. So you're claiming that helicopters under your command were not used to transport ammunition.

A. Yes. I am claiming that they were not used under my command for the transport of ammunition.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. May, I should like to tender this into evidence. Now, whether it is authentic or not is easy to establish. Also, I would like to tender the first minutes of the meeting that was attended by General Agotic. The first minutes, not the second one which you say he is unable to comment on but the first one at which he did attend.

JUDGE MAY: He's unable to comment on it, but on the other hand, he recognised it as authentic and therefore we may well be able to exhibit it.

[Trial Chamber confers]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours --

JUDGE MAY: The --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the first document that Mr. Milosevic wants to be exhibited is the one from the 23rd of August, ²³³⁹⁰ 1995, and Mr. Agotic was present during these -- this meeting.

JUDGE MAY: The first set of minutes, which is the 23rd of August, 1995, will be given the first Defence Exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 153, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: The next minutes, those of the 7th of May, although it's right the witness wasn't present, nonetheless, he has stated its authenticity and we admit such documents, can be given the next exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 154, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: And finally, the Herceg-Bosna document of the 14th of September, 1993, that can have the final Exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 155.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you had occasion, Mr. Agotic, to see a statement? I have only received it only in English, by Arif Pasalic, a statement he made here which is very lengthy, and almost entirely it is devoted to the involvement of Croatian forces in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. No, I did not have occasion to see his statement.

Q. Would you like to have a look at it now?

JUDGE MAY: Now, it's what somebody else said, and it's totally irrelevant as far as this witness is concerned. If you want to put something from it to the witness, you can, but there's no point the witness looking at it, and it's not admissible.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I could present the whole ²³³⁹¹ statement to him, but, for instance, on page 7 of that statement it says: "On the 26th of October, 1992, I arrived in Prozor [In English] and General Slobodan Praljak who was a general of the Croatian army, but he was in the HVO HQ - HVO headquarters - and also with us was Pero Zelenika of the HVO and Srecko Vucina of the HVO headquarters main staff Mostar. The units of HVO, some of whom had the insignia of the Croatian army and the commander of the unit Siljeg, who I think at the time had the rank of major now controlled Prozor."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So this is the 26th of October, 1992. Was General Slobodan Praljak a general of the Croatian army?

A. As far as I can remember, by then he was already a general of the Croatian army.

Q. What was a Croatian general doing in Prozor if you say that the Croatian army was not in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during those operations?

A. I was not in command of General Praljak. He was in the Defence Ministry, assistant minister for political work?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement be -- Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: We were discussing, Mr. Milosevic, how much longer you should have, and we've decided that you should have an extra 15 minutes. That gives you 20 minutes in all.

Now, yes. No. If you want the statement exhibited, you know the answer is no. You've applied often enough before. Statements of witnesses are not admissible unless there are exceptional circumstances, ²³³⁹² which don't apply here. You can always call this witness, if you want. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And this particular detail that I quoted from the statement, would you like to comment on it or not? Do you believe it to be incorrect?

A. I can't comment on that.

Q. But let us conclude on this point. You said very clearly that the Croatian army, during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, was not in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Very well. That's fine. Allow me now to go back to a matter, because you said that while Vasiljevic was head of security in the JNA or, rather, the security administration of the JNA, there were no members of other ethnicities, is it true that the security administration always had two generals, and as a rule they were Croats? There was Miskovic, Domankusic, who is Mrs. Florence Hartmann's father-in-law. Grubisic, Paricevic, Pavicic. Were they all in the security administration and were they all Croats?

A. As far as I know, they were generals in the security administration. I don't know the ethnicity of all of them. This was a long time ago, and in those days I didn't give that any thought.

JUDGE MAY: It is alleged that one of them is Mrs. Florence Hartmann's father-in-law. Do you know if that's so or not? You may not know who Mrs. Florence Hartmann is. ²³³⁹³

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see Mrs. Florence Hartmann when she's making statements on Croatian television. Now, whether she's married and what her family background is, I really have no idea.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. When General Vasiljevic was head of the administration, his deputy was General Tumanov, who was a Macedonian; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Head of the first department, a Slovene, a colonel, Maks Pen; is that right?

A. I don't know whether he was head of the first department at that time, but I do know that Maks Pen is a Slovene and that for a time he was in the security service. Now, what position he held after 1989, I don't know.

Q. Then a Croat, Lorenzini, do you know him?

A. Yes, I do. I know him while he was serving in the 5th Military District. Now, what position he held after that, I don't know.

Q. And is it true that while -- at the time that you were suspended, you were suspected of having connections with the foreign intelligence service, and there was a danger of you being taken to court; is that right?

A. I hear that for the first time.

Q. Very well, General. In your examination-in-chief, you referred to certain events, and tab 34 was used as an example, a report by a major. I haven't noted his name properly, I think it's Riksic or something like ^{23394 BLANK PAGE 23395} that, about the suffering of civilians in Skabrnja. And this was addressed to the 9th Corps, as you explained it; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Then in tab 35, the report of the commander of the military police platoon, also from Skabrnja; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it clear from this that -- that there was an investigation with respect to the activities engaged in by representatives of the JNA?

A. Yes. That is my assessment, that security organs of the military police conducted an investigation into the situation in Skabrnja.

Q. You heard, and I think you used an example, tab 5, for the events in Fruska. The explanation given was that an Ustasha sabotage terrorist group was involved. You heard and you claim that this was attributed to Croats but that the JNA had a different position than the one presented by the police in Benkovac. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it mean, according to tab 6, that the JNA conducted its investigation in an unbiased manner, according to what you say?

A. According to that report, that is the right conclusion.

Q. Then you went on to speak about - and this is in tab 7 - about the arrival of 24 people from Knin. And from what you commented on professionally, you said they were people from SAO Krajina and not the JNA; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. You said that you had urged that the newly elected leaderships of ²³³⁹⁶ Slovenia and Croatia needed to be recognised. I have to tell you, General, that I hear from you for the first time that the leaderships of Slovenia and Croatia were not recognised, that they were unrecognised. Do you remember that those leaderships participated in regular political life of Yugoslavia, that the president attended meetings of the Presidency of the SFRY when presidents of the republics were invited? I personally attended many sessions together with Tudjman and the others, other members of the Presidency of the SFRY, and he attended as president of Croatia and I as president of Serbia. So what kind of lack of recognition are you referring to regarding the leaderships of Slovenia and Croatia? Janez Stanovnik from Slovenia was also present.

A. My statement, Mr. Milosevic, related to recognition of the top of the JNA leadership of the new leaderships.

Q. So you're talking about the JNA attitudes.

A. Yes, and I gave an example to illustrate this.

Q. Very well, General. Let us clear up just one more detail. You said that you were the authorised negotiator with the JNA, that on behalf of the JNA there was General Raseta, who most frequently consulted with Admiral Brovet. That's what you said, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that Admiral Brovet at the time was Deputy Federal Secretary for National Defence?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it true that Admiral Brovet is a Slovene?

A. It is generally thought that he was a Slovenian. Now, whether he ²³³⁹⁷ considers himself that, I don't know.

Q. His name is Stane Brovet, so I think that is quite clearly a Slovenian first and last name. But no one ever doubted that he was a Slovene?

A. That's what I think too, but it's his right to declare himself as he will, so I haven't seen his declaration of ethnicity.

Q. You were asked something with respect to these negotiations with Raseta, whether people were leaving of their own free will, and your response to that was that there was general practice in those parts that they would come individually or in groups and cross over into the territory under the control of the Croatian authorities. Is that right, General?

A. Mostly they were driven into the separation line by the authorities of the SAO Krajina of the day. Yes, it's true. They came as individuals and in groups too, they would come to the separation line.

Q. All right. And you explained that people fled in the face of combat operations too, in the face of the fighting, that they left the area, as you yourself said, faced with the front. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So was that a form of ethnic cleansing then or was it just fleeing from the fighting?

A. Before the occupation of the territory, we can say the people fled in the face of the fighting, but a planned intimidation through artillery shelling also took place.

Q. So this was -- they planned to instil fear into the people so that ²³³⁹⁸ they should leave; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And does that apply to Operation Storm when Knin was shelled and when the citizens left the area en masse?

A. As to the Storm operation, it was military targets that were targeted and shelled. And as far as I know, this is always done in order to diminish the army's ability to defend itself and not to have the population leave.

Q. But the people that stayed on were later on slaughtered and killed. That's right, isn't it?

A. I don't know about data of that kind, but I assume there were cases of retaliation and revenge.

Q. All right. Now, tell me about this: You mentioned Saborsko and November 1991. Is it, however, true that it was following your orders that an attack had been launched previously on the strategic ammunitions depot belonging to the JNA which was located near Saborsko and in Licka Jesenica? Is that right?

A. I don't remember that there was a depot there or that I issued orders to that effect, along those lines.

Q. All right. You don't remember. But can I jog your memory that Colonel Bulat, via a mediator in the European Union, sent you an appeal to stop the attack but that you intensified the attack after that and that the attack on the depot reached a crux on the 12th of November, 1991, that it culminated on that date?

A. It is possible that that's how it was, but I don't remember those ²³³⁹⁹ details. And as regards Saborsko, I just commented on the map that was shown to me and gave my opinions about the map.

Q. So you gave your opinions as to the map. I see. From your professional viewpoint. You didn't present the data that you knew about. You were just commenting on the map, were you?

A. I was commenting on the map and also I said that Saborsko was cleansed and what partially led up to that from talks with the mayor or head of the municipality before that.

Q. Well, you said, actually, that the president of the local community of Saborsko reported and asked you to arm them. Is that right?

A. Yes. And his name was Luka Hodak.

Q. And then later on you went on to say that the citizens fled prior to the conflict and that the defenders, as you called them, withdrew in the face of a stronger force. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So were there any crimes that were committed against the population at the time or was it a purely military operation?

A. It was quite obviously a military operation. Now, whether in the course of that military operation any crimes took place as well, I don't know. But a crime is a crime if you want to leave the village empty of its inhabitants so that you could go ahead and destroy the village after that. So that is, for me, a crime and the inordinate use of force along with it.

Q. Now, tell me this: As there was fighting that culminated on the 12th of November, 1991, fighting around this depot, do you remember that ²³⁴⁰⁰ it was under your command that some foreign mercenaries fought? There were Scandinavians, for example, and among the dead on your side there were several people who quite obviously were not from the Yugoslav parts. The colour of their skin was different and they were also foreign mercenaries. Do you remember that?

A. In the Croatian army there were dozens of nationalities and foreign nationals, in fact. I don't know the exact figure, and I don't know who they were and who died where, but many of them were killed, that is true. They were not foreign mercenaries who were engaged in the pejorative sense, they were volunteers who had come up to join the ranks of the regular Croatian army of their own free will.

Q. All right, General. Now, as you say you commented on the map and the 5th Partisan Brigade was mentioned, do you happen to know that in Saborsko and the surrounding parts, at least according to the information that I have been given, collected by my associates, that there was no 5th Partisan Brigade of any kind? It was the 9th Light Brigade from Licka Jesenica, in fact, which was there and which, in fact, deblocked the kerosine and ammunitions depot there.

A. There is the possibility that the 9th Light Brigade was used to that effect because there were quite a number of units in the area. However, it was the Partisan -- whether it was the 5th Partisan or some other title, some other name, it was responsible for that territory. Now, what the make-up was in the former JNA and how it became part of the SAO Krajina army...

Q. Otherwise, let's just go back for a moment to a question we were ²³⁴⁰¹ discussing, and we cleared it up. It wasn't that there was no recognition of Croatia and Slovenia because they took part normally and then you reduced this to meaning the JNA, to refer to the JNA alone. Now, my information tells me that there is television footage from the first Sabor of the newly elected leadership with the presence of representatives of the JNA there as guests. They were guests invited. They were representatives of the JNA, the command in charge of Croatia, and so on.

A. I don't know of this footage, so I can't comment. But what I do know is that JNA representatives from the corresponding commands and headquarters did attend the constituting of the first Sabor parliament of the Republic of Croatia once the new authorities had come into power.

Q. They were present. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, when the Croatian Assembly was constituted, known as the Sabor.

Q. And when the newly elected president was promoted, President Tudjman.

A. Yes.

Q. So the JNA didn't boycott the new authorities, did it?

A. I don't remember whether it was the JNA, but what I do know is that there was a commander there of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Croatia. He was present. And there is a picture of him in the Croatian parliament to this day. But I don't remember who was present on the JNA side.

Q. You said that a company of the Territorial Defence from Plasko was at Saborsko; right? ²³⁴⁰²

A. In Plasko, yes, there was one. And it took some sort of part in the operation on Saborsko.

Q. But you emphasise that it wasn't an operation launched by the Territorial Defence but the lawful and -- of the lawful and legitimate JNA units; right? That's what you said.

A. It was an operation both on the part of the Serbian Territorial Defence along with participation of JNA units.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is now up. You can ask one more question, though, of this witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, as you said, General, that a part of the weaponry was destroyed, could you please comment on these facts and figures that I have been given. We refer to Delnice and Grobnicko Polje and the warehouse or depot in Sapijane, if I've got the name right. Is it true and correct that the attack by the ZNG on the 11th of October, 1991, the Croatian National Guard Corps was launched against the warehouse of the 5th Military District, its depot, and that the defence was put up by a unit of the Delnice Brigade, commander of the Viljeka Corps, under the command of Colonel Dzuro Vitanovic, and that the fighting went on until the 15th of October to secure control and that finally the depot was taken over on the 17th of October and that the JNA did not set fire to anything, that you were able to take on the entire contents, although prior to that an agreement had been reached with you about a non-attack, a non-attack agreement. And at the head of the Croatian National Guard Corps was Colonel Jokovic who was expelled from the JNA, and then later on, you ²³⁴⁰³ expelled him too, after an abortive attack on a village in Lika.

JUDGE MAY: Let us restrict this to one question. The question that you can ask is this: General, would you deal with the allegation concerning an attack in October on the warehouse of the 5th Military District. Is the account which the accused has given of that correct or not?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just finish my sentence?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It was a warehouse that was guarded by 70 soldiers and the attack was launched by 2.000 members of the Croatian National Guards Corps.

A. That was the ratio -- I can't say what the ratio of forces was but that we had 2.000 members of the ZNGs in the Delnice region, had we had that number, then we would have done the job far quicker. So I doubt as to the correctness of those figures. However, taking control of the warehouse in Delnice did take place, perhaps on the date that Mr. Milosevic states, and after that, and that was customary generally speaking, two days later in fact, the warehouse was bombed by the JNA air force and everything destroyed, everything that was not pulled out was destroyed, and that was the principle followed in all the activities when warehouses were taken over by the JNA.

JUDGE MAY: No, you've had your time. Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Agotic, yesterday during the ²³⁴⁰⁴ examination-in-chief you spoke about some documents which are contained in the list of exhibits that attended your testimony, and you mentioned some of them in the various tabs. And for Sabici and some other documents, when you looked at them in view of their contents, formed the way in which they were compiled, you said that they were authentic documents. That's right, isn't it?

A. Could you repeat what you said about Sabici? Which Sabic?

Q. There were several documents whose authenticity you confirmed.

A. That's correct.

Q. Even some documents that weren't signed you said you thought were authentic ones.

A. Yes, that's right, because that's how they were written during my time in the JNA. They didn't need to contain signatures and they were considered authentic.

Q. All right. Now, this document, the one that was shown to you a moment ago, dated the 14th of September, 1993, when you yourself were already a member of the Croatian army. I should like to ask you now to take a look at that document. I have a copy here. I don't know if it's been given back to you. Do you have a copy? No? Here it is, then.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document has been translated into English.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that's Defence Exhibit 155.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. If you look at the document, you'll be able to see that it has a number and a date. It says "Memorandum" and it has a stamp in the upper ^{23405 BLANK PAGE 23406} right-hand corner, and it even has some initials at the bottom. That's right, isn't it?

A. The stamp is illegible so I can't guarantee that.

Q. Yes, but everything else, judging by the form, how it was compiled, was compiled in the way that these things were done when you were commander of the ZNG.

A. No, we didn't have any rules as to how documents should be written in the intelligence service and security administration.

Q. All right. I understand that. But I'd like to ask you whether you know what this at the bottom might mean, the initials BA. Who could that be?

A. Usually they are the initials of the man who compiled the document.

Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to focus on the contents, and they mention these flights and that President Tudjman was consulted with respect to those flights. Is that right? Do you know that President Tudjman was consulted with respect to those flights?

A. He wasn't consulted for each individual flight.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, can you tell me who Colonel Ticinovic is?

A. Colonel Ticinovic was the commander of the air force base of Divulje.

Q. And he was under your command?

A. Yes, he was under my command.

Q. Well, in paragraph 5 -- one, two, three, four -- paragraph 4, several hours -- after several hours of indecision, General Pupotic ²³⁴⁰⁷ [phoen], Nagotic [phoen] gave their permission for the flight, a flight that transported 190.000 pieces of ammunition, 7.62 calibre. Do you know anything about that?

A. That is the customary procedure for giving the okay for the flights. Now, what the contents were, what the cargo was, I can't say for sure, whether the planes contained what you say they did.

Q. But take a look at the document. We see that permission was asked by the ECMMs, that first of all they did not give their permission for the flight and then after Bagaric's report was received that they were dealing with three soldiers who were in a coma, that permission was given for the flight. Do you know about that?

A. That was customary. Dr. Bagaric was the head of the medical corps of the Croatian Defence Council, as far as I remember, or rather, the head of the hospital in Novo Bila and Kiseljak, thereabouts, in those parts.

Q. All right, fine. Now take a look at paragraph 2 on page 2, and it says the following -- is it true? That the European Community was explained that we were targeted in our attempts to land and that we gave up the idea; that is to say that we never went through with it. They never went through with it; is that right?

A. I don't see anything that can be brought into dispute there. They accepted that with all seriousness.

Q. Yes, I understand. And finally, it says this flight caused a wave of enthusiasm once again in the population and the soldiers and as is characteristic after flights of this kind, an operation is launched to cleanse part of the territory taken control of. For example, Grbavica was ²³⁴⁰⁸ cleansed. Do you know anything about that?

A. No, I don't.

Q. All right. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you something else, something about the minutes. One of the minutes was presented here to this Trial Chamber a few days ago, and it has to do with the meeting on the 31st of July held on Brioni islands in 1995. Did you attend that meeting?

A. I did attend one meeting. Now, whether that was that particular meeting I can't say.

Q. All right. I'll ask you something about that later on. And the other was held on the 23rd of August, 1995, and you've already said that you did attend that particular meeting. Will you now take a look, please, at page 21 on the B/C/S version or, rather, it is the -- the number is -- the ERN number is 26011. I have it here. I have a copy here, in fact. Could you have a look at page 26011. And what Major General Vinko Vrbanjac says. Have you got it in front of you?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. This is what he says: "Mr. President, by liberating the third part of the occupied territory, the Republic of Croatia has created the conditions for what you said in your introduction to in a military fashion in fact arrive at a change in the population." Is that what he said? Did he say that?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And then afterwards, the president says the following: "It is by a lucky chance that this liberation in view of the strategic position in ²³⁴⁰⁹ fact requires a deployment of our military units which would solve to a great extent the demographic setup."

Did you hear that? Did you hear him say that? Was it what he said and can you comment, please.

A. These matters were discussed probably at that meeting as well, but this has to do with something quite different, Mr. Tapuskovic; namely, after the war, it was felt that Croatia should devote more attention to certain neglected areas by refreshing them demographically by stationing the army in those areas, and the discussion was to that effect rather than the army going there and chasing out a population of a different ethnicity from that area.

Q. I understand. Now, look at page 26067, I think it's towards the end in the B/C/S version, where President Tudjman is speaking. The same document. The number is 01326067. Have you found it?

A. Yes.

Q. I have to quote just a part of it. You can comment on it, but I'm only interested in this point. He started in this way wait: "Wait, wait, let us be realistic now," and then look at the end. True, this is reference to Vitalina and Molunat - two letters are missing - but it says: "We had half a million Serbs there and where are they now?" Do you remember this being said? We had half a million Serbs, and where are they now?

A. The reference is probably to the entire territory of Croatia.

Q. Very well. And now, are you familiar with a report, because you say that the whole Operation Storm was completed 72 -- after 72 hours, and ²³⁴¹⁰ after that there was no threat to the safety of people, to their property and their lives. Is that right?

A. I said that the operation was completed in that time and that the Croatian army had completed its part of the work. It had liberated the area. As for the establishment of authorities, that is up to someone else, not the army.

Q. I have a document which I received from the OTP. Their Honours can look at it. I have sufficient number of copies. This is document Weekly Assessment of the Command of the ECMM in Zagreb of the 14th of August, 1995, number 2668536858. And it says on page 3: "Five weeks after Operation Storm, harassment continued and in some cases killing of Serb inhabitants, which means several weeks after the Croatian forces had been deployed in the area. So killings continued as well as constant looting, which is contrary to official reports according to which law and order had been established. In fact, this is continuing because of lack of interest on the part of the Croatian government to put an end to it." Are you familiar with this report of the ECMM?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, I must ask you how you see your role. I mean, this seems to be just repeating what the accused is saying. You're not here to represent Serbia, you're here to assist the Court. The accused is putting forward a defence, and there's no reason for you to add to it.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really am not at all trying to be a Defence counsel for Mr. Slobodan Milosevic. I am trying to act in accordance with your instructions, to draw your attention ²³⁴¹¹ to every matter which I consider to be important for you. I am focusing only on documents. I haven't tendered a single document myself. I am only focusing on the documents I received from the OTP and drawing your attention to them. I'm not trying to defend anyone, I'm just highlighting matters about which it is up to you to rule. We have a witness here that you will believe or you will not believe, that is absolutely up to you. But it is my duty to draw your attention to documents that I believe you need to devote your attention to, and that is all I am doing. I think they are important, and I think that when you have to determine -- make your determinations, that you need to bear them in mind.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there anything you want to say about it, General?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, would you please repeat to me what is the date of that ECMM report.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is a report of the ECMM of the 14th of August, 1995.

A. How then --

Q. This was ten days after the operation.

A. You said five weeks after the Operation Storm that massacres continued, and on the 14th of August, that was only nine days after the beginning of the operation.

Q. But you said that everything was over in 72 hours.

A. I am claiming that the military part of the operation was completed in 72 hours.

Q. Very well. I won't go back to that again, but let me also draw ²³⁴¹² the attention of Their Honours to one further point. Do you remember attending a meeting on the 31st of July, 1995, when the last words by President Tudjman were the following: "Wait. I'm going to Geneva in order to conceal this and not to discuss things there. I will not send a minister, I will send the Assistant Minister of Internal Affairs to conceal what we are preparing for the day after so that we eliminate all arguments to the world that we didn't wish to negotiate but we wished only," et cetera. Do you remember President Tudjman saying that?

A. I attended the meeting at Brioni just prior to Operation Storm. I do not recollect that particular detail. But do you think that someone would publish, would announce to the whole world that they were engaging in an operation, about to engage in an operation?

Q. I'm not claiming anything, Mr. Agotic, I'm just drawing attention to what was said. And here are some more words by the president: "But I am mentioning this because we must conceive our operations and implement them in such a way not to give cause to Yugoslavia, Milosevic, and their friends in the West to accept the intervention of Yugoslavia on Croatian soil." End of quote.

Do you remember that that was what was said? And then he repeated again, "I'm saying again, we must not left ourselves be provoked so as to give Yugoslavia a cause to go to war." Do you remember that?

A. It was probably like that.

Q. Finally, on that same page, it says: "Next year we will have Croatia and tourism, and also we will be shaping the borders of Croatia in ²³⁴¹³ Bosnia." This was stated in 1995. Do you remember that?

A. I don't remember that particular detail regarding Bosnia but that we had extra forces that could be reduced, that is true.

Q. Now we have the minutes from the 23rd of August that you attended. Do you remember that the president said the following on that occasion: "If international circumstances were such, and if we had had the wisdom, and if I had been told that the Yugoslav air force, assisted with Russian rockets, would be engaged in this war, then today we would have had borders that would have suited not only Croatia but the whole world"?

A. I said that probably the entire minutes are authentic, but that particular detail, in view of the time distance and the length of the meeting, I don't recollect.

Q. Can you answer my question if there was fear that the Yugoslav army would get involved? That means that in the Serbian Krajina, where the operation was conducted -- not Serbian Krajina, in the Krajina inhabited by Serbs, there was no Yugoslav army at the time.

A. That was 1995.

Q. Very well. But then in Croatia, there were no Yugoslav army forces.

A. It was no longer called the Yugoslav army, it was called the army of SAO Krajina.

Q. And let me complete this questioning with the minutes. If you could please look at the last page or, rather, I'll read it out to you, the last page of this report of the 23rd of August, 1995, in which it says as follows, the very end: "Then it's not a tactical matter. It is a ²³⁴¹⁴ matter for state policies, and does my word mean anything?" And then what I think to be particularly important: "For me to be able to rely on allies and friends who, as you can see, are such that they are not pursuing our policies but their own policies." End of quote. Does that really mean that the friends he's referring to here were more concerned about their own strategic and political goals than the interests of Croatia, as President Tudjman put it?

A. It is only logical that everyone should give priority to one's own interest.

Q. As I don't have much time, finally let me ask you one more thing. Since between 1971 and 1974, you were in Bihac working in security affairs; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you remember events linked to the Croatian spring?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. The mass movement.

A. Yes, I remember.

Q. It is true that that was the first major separatist, nationalist action designed to achieve Croatia's independence?

A. It is not right. It was a movement in Croatia which set out requests for redefining internal relationships within the former Yugoslavia, which was a perfectly legal requirement of one of the members of the federation.

Q. But wasn't that movement halted precisely because the JNA, under the leadership of Josip Broz Tito, was still very powerful? ²³⁴¹⁵

A. Correct. And the international circumstances were such that it was halted.

Q. I probably wouldn't have asked you this had you not worked in the area. Bugojno was within your area of responsibility, wasn't it?

A. Not quite. I didn't have a particular territory. There our ground forces held the territory, not the air force.

Q. And do you know that a very large terrorist group was infiltrated at the time whose aim was to start an uprising, and there was a serious conflict between the JNA and that group?

A. Yes. I am familiar with that case and the operation.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do I have a few more minutes?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, just a few.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The ideas of the Croatian spring, were they reflected when the constitution was adopted in 1974 when eight states were formed and the JNA was broken up as a basis for some future activities?

A. Yes. That was one of the victories of the so-called Croatian spring.

Q. Now, tell me now, when President Mesic testified here - and it can also be found in Kucan's statement, although I didn't have time to question him about it - that there were three integrating factors of the unity of Yugoslavia: First, the authority of Josip Broz Tito; secondly, the League of Communists; and thirdly, the powerful Yugoslav People's Army. ^{23416 BLANK PAGE 23417}

A. I have heard of that statement, and I agree with it.

Q. With the death of Josip Broz Tito, the first condition was available for achieving disintegration, and were certain activities engaged in already in 1980 after his death? And I'm sure that you had intelligence information already then that could be used for the break-up of Yugoslavia.

A. Probably there were individuals who wanted the break-up of Yugoslavia, but when I speak about the disappearance of three integrating factors for Yugoslavia, I am thinking of the Yugoslavia that we had up until then. It needed to be redefined, and this required the political will of all parties. Yes. Tito had physically gone, but his authority still lasted.

A. Yes.

Q. And then that authority had to be undermined too.

A. Some people wanted to achieve that.

Q. And wasn't that done when his birthday ceased to be celebrated, then abolishing the relay baton race that existed regularly for his birthday, and finally, the military parade on the 9th of May in observation of Victory Day was no longer held. Is that true?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. And did the League of Communists need to be broken up?

A. If was one of the integrating factors. It needed to be redefined. That's how I see the 14th Congress.

Q. And was the main principle of the League of Communists democratic centralism, which meant that until a decision is taken, everyone can have ²³⁴¹⁸ his own opinion, but afterwards, the majority opinion should prevail?

A. Yes, but not non-democratic centralism, which would mean outvoting.

JUDGE MAY: I think we've really heard this, thank you very much. Anything more you want to ask the witness?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll go directly to a question and the point of this.

Q. As you worked in the intelligence and security service, did you know, and we heard from somebody who was your superior, Mr. Vasiljevic, but had you heard of the existence of two plans, that first every attempt be made either to provoke the JNA so that it should started acting first, or to attack the JNA? Provoke it or attack it?

A. Who had such plans?

Q. Had you heard of any such plans from within certain circles?

JUDGE MAY: This is the point: You're now putting forward a positive Defence case, and it's not your role, in my judgement, to do that. The accused does that. Now, unless there's anything more, I think we need to go on to the re-examination in order to finish by quarter past.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll finish my examination.

Q. When you were speaking about the capture of barracks, did this occur in the second half of August before any conflict of any scale had started?

A. It was in the second half of August when the main operation started to capture barracks and block them.

Q. On the 2nd of July, you virtually stopped working in the JNA, and ²³⁴¹⁹ is it true that on the 1st of July, Mr. Mesic became president of the Presidency?

A. I don't remember the exact date when he became president.

Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber the following: When what happened happened, you said that the Yugoslav army became a Serbian army. Roughly, something to that effect; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And all officers and soldiers who were Croats, did they all remain in the Croatian army, the others in the Bosnian army or in the Macedonian army? Virtually when the Yugoslav People's Army broke up, several new armies were formed, and they inherited a certain portion of the weaponry of the JNA?

A. That is partially true.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic. Mr. Tapuskovic, because since you are a legal expert, being different from the accused, I'd like to ask this question. You dealt with some -- Operation Storm and some later events afterwards which took place much after the events which -- which is included in the indictment against the accused. What I would like to ask you is this: What relevance does it have in relation to the indictment? Could you explain it in legal terms? Is it a self-defence or are you triggering a tu quoque theory, or what else?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you will be ruling about that. It is my duty to address all matters which might be of significance for your determination. In my judgement as an amicus, it is ²³⁴²⁰ my opinion that all the circumstances that preceded all these events need to be studied carefully. This is a rare case in the history of civilisation that an army within a territory on one day -- these are people who served in the army from Serbia, in Slovenia, people from Montenegro and Kosovo. This was all a mixture, a melting pot. In a single day, this ceased to be the Yugoslav People's Army, and you need to examine the circumstances in which that Yugoslav People's Army broke up, disappeared from the stage, and how all this affected the behaviour of the people who constituted that state. It is very difficult to determine the actual turning point when this happened, and this state of mind among the people when a state disappeared in one moment. Therefore, you need to establish that there were plans for criminal action. It is up to you to determine this, of course.

I am confident, and that is why I am addressing these matters, that at that point in time there were no plans to engage in crime, that this was initially a civil war and that mostly it was a civil war, and as amicus curiae, we have presented our views in our submissions prior to Croatia, the Croatian case, and I think it is up to you in the first place to decide whether a civil war broke out first and then was followed by all these events that you have to adjudicate.

JUDGE KWON: What I asked about is the Operation Storm. I think there's a point in what you are saying, but what significance does it have in relation to legal terms? Because you are a friend of the court and a legal expert - we are not in a history class - what does it have to do with the indictment? Could you spell it out specifically. ²³⁴²¹

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honours. It is up to you to rule on the legal matters, whether this was the right to self-defence in all the areas in which this happened. Storm is a consequence of what the Serb population in Krajina feared. It is what caused the things we are talking about. So this problem, this right to self-determination, is another important issue that you will have to rule on. But of course, I believe that in that context, you will need to bear in mind certain historical facts, because unless you as Judges do not delve into those historical circumstances to some extent, I fear that you would be seriously amiss. Not going back I don't know how long into history but at least covering the Second World War period. And unless those things are taken into consideration, I think that would be a very serious omission.

JUDGE KWON: I think that's all. I can get as much as I can now.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Two quick questions. The first relates to the Vukovar barracks.

Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you whether these barracks were blocked, and your answer to this was no. And I would like to clarify about which time period you were actually speaking. Were the Vukovar barracks ever blocked by the Croats, and if so, was it deblockaded at some point in time?

A. The barracks at Vukovar were never under the blockade of the Croatian forces, and on a regular basis, people could go in and out of it onto the side controlled by the Territorial Defence of the day, of Serbia, or, rather, the Serb part of the population south of Vukovar. ²³⁴²²

Q. And the second question I have relates to the Operation Storm. General, did the Croatian army have any intelligence on the possible reactions of the FRY or the VJ before launching the operation?

A. I didn't have intelligence data available to me of that kind which would indicate the reactions of Yugoslavia and what it would be. They were just assessments, that the possibility existed, et cetera, et cetera, that from the area of Serbia, from Yugoslavia, actually, that there would be reactions in a certain way through some breakthroughs onto the territory of the Republic of Croatia from the eastern sector, Sector East, that is to say the eastern zone which was occupied at the time. I'm referring to the territory of Croatia.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's all, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: General Agotic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. One matter was raised. It doesn't concern the witness at all, it's to do with the exhibits, so you don't have to be concerned. I'm told there's no difficulty about the exhibits, in fact. But there is one matter I want to raise.

Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you had put in a motion for four Croatian 92 bis witnesses to be introduced. I guess you're dealing with it?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: It may be convenient if we hear briefly about it tomorrow before the adjournment, so at about half past one tomorrow, if you'd like to be in then.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour ²³⁴²³

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We will adjourn. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1244

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be tendering a binder of 16 exhibits. Could I ask that that binder be assigned a number at this stage.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that's Prosecution Exhibit 476.

MR. GROOME: And if we could begin the examination with the witness being shown Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 1. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I will ask you to look at the top line of this exhibit and ask you if that's your name contained therein.

A. Yes.

Q. For the purposes of protecting your identity, you will be referred to as B-1244.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender that under seal and ask that we go into closed session briefly for a related matter. ²³⁴²⁴

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to begin your testimony by identifying, with a sentence or two, several people. I'm also going to display on the television screen before you a chart, and I would ask you, have you seen this chart that's displayed on the television screen before today?

JUDGE MAY: We ought to have his pseudonym for the record.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the witness will be testifying under the pseudonym B-1244.

Q. Displayed on the screen is Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 4. Have ²³⁴²⁵ you seen this exhibit before today?

A. Yes.

Q. I will not ask you to describe in any great detail the exhibit at this juncture. I will ask you at the conclusion of your testimony to describe what the different boxes and lines indicate, but I will ask that it be displayed while I ask you to give us some information about particular individuals.

The first person I would ask you to tell us in a sentence or two who he was is a person by the name of Dragan Djordjevic, also known as Crni.

A. Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, was a member of the Serbian Radical Party and also a member of the special units of the DB, the state security, and for a time he was a brigade commander as well in my area.

Q. The next person is Srecko Radanovic, also known as Debeli.

A. He was also a member of the Radical Party. He was in a group which arrived to the area, and for a time he acted as Chief of Staff of the brigade.

Q. Now, just going to Crni for a second, you've testified that he was a member of the special units of the DB of the state security. Can you be more specific about which state security service he was a member of.

A. Well, the State Security Service of Serbia.

Q. Now, with respect to Debeli, what was his command relationship with respect to Mr. Crni?

A. Well, at the beginning, he occupied a lower post, a lower-ranking post than this man Djordjevic. He was below him. ²³⁴²⁶

Q. Now, if I can ask you to tell us in a sentence or two who was Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar?

A. He was also a member of the Radical Party, and he arrived in the unit. He was a member of that special unit and the leader of a group within the special unit.

Q. When you say "special unit," can you tell us precisely what you're referring to.

A. I'm referring to the special unit of the state security of Serbia.

Q. Again, Mr. Frenki Simatovic, can you tell us who he was in a sentence or two.

A. He was the assistant to the chief of the state security department and commander of that special unit.

Q. Mr. Jovica Stanisic.

A. Jovica Stanisic was the chief of the state security service of the MUP of Serbia.

Q. Mr. Milos Bogdanovic.

A. Milos Bogdanovic was the head of the municipal Secretariat of the National Defence.

Q. And for which area was he the Secretariat of National Defence?

A. For the area of -- actually, for mobilisation and sending recruits to do their military service. I think that was his job.

Q. How large was his area of responsibility? Was it a single municipality or was it larger than that?

A. Well, before 1992, he was just there for one municipality. However, at the beginning of 1992, he was also in charge of the newly ²³⁴²⁷ established Serbian municipality. He was the head there, and that incorporated parts of the other three municipalities.

Q. The Chamber has heard quite a bit of evidence about a Radmilo Bogdanovic. These two Bogdanovics are not related, according to information you have, are they?

A. As far as I know, no, they're not related.

Q. Can you describe for us who a person by the name of Blagoje Simic is.

A. Blagoje Simic was the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly, and during the war he was the head or, rather, president of the Crisis Staff of that same municipality.

Q. Can you tell us who Simo Zaric was.

A. Simo Zaric had a number of functions. Before the war, he was head of the state security department for the region. At the beginning of 1992, he was the assistant commander for a security detachment, and later on, he worked as a crime inspector in the police station, after which he was head for national security, and later on again, he was in charge of another municipality, and later, assistant commander of the brigade for moral guidance, religious issues, information, propaganda, et cetera.

Q. Simo Zaric, in what municipality --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. GROOME:

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A. Well, also for municipality number 3.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that we go briefly into closed session just to deal with some characteristics of this municipality.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention to the period of the late 1991 and early of 1992. Were there four military detachments formed in your municipality?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe the different -- the responsibilities generally of these four military detachments.

A. Well, the responsibilities of these four military detachments were to preserve the territory, safeguard the territory.

Q. And where did the men staffing these four detachments come from?

A. The members of those four detachments were the local population from these three municipalities. ²³⁴³¹

Q. And where did the equipment and arms used by these detachments come from?

A. They came from the warehouse of the Yugoslav People's Army which was located in the vicinity.

Q. I want to now draw your attention to late February, early March of 1992. Did you have occasion to make a business trip on private business to Belgrade during that time period?

A. Yes.

Q. Did somebody ask to accompany you on that trip?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was that?

A. The person under number 13.

Q. And while on that trip, did you meet some other people in the company of number 13?

A. After I had completed my meeting, I met for a short -- a brief period two other men.

Q. And who were they?

A. They were the gentlemen -- they were the gentleman under number 24 and the gentleman Milan Prodanic.

Q. Now, Milan Prodanic, what governmental organisation did he belong to?

A. He belonged to the state security of the MUP of Serbia.

Q. And the person you've described as number 24 from tab 3, what governmental organisation did he belong to?

A. He belonged to the Military Intelligence Service in the Federal ²³⁴³² Secretariat for National Defence in Belgrade.

Q. How did you know that Mr. Prodanic worked for the State Security Service of Serbia?

A. When I first met him personally, he just introduced himself by giving his name. However, upon my return, this other gentleman, the gentleman under number 13, told me where he worked and what his job was.

Q. On the way back from Belgrade, back to your municipality, did the person you've identified as number 13, did he have a conversation with you about a decision that was taken with those other men?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. He said that he would be sending some 20 men for training and asked me if I knew some young men who were willing to undergo such training, and if so, could I help him in that respect.

Q. When he used the word "training," what was your understanding of who was conducting the training and what was the training for?

A. Well, I understood later on that this was - how shall I put this? - military training, and it was conducted in an improvised camp, and later on I learned that that particular camp was organised by the MUP of Serbia.

Q. And did you know at that time where the camp was to be set up?

A. I didn't know at that time, but I learnt later on.

Q. And where did you learn that the camp was located?

A. I don't know where it was supposed to have been located, but I learnt later on where it was located in actual fact. ²³⁴³³

Q. Please tell us where that was.

A. It was in the surroundings of Ilok, Eastern Slavonia.

Q. Now, after returning to your municipality, were men in fact selected and sent for training at this camp?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you identify the process that was used to identify the men sent for training at this camp.

A. Well, first of all, these people had to want to go on a voluntary basis. The second requirement was that they were under 30 years of age, and thirdly, that they were Serbs.

Q. And approximately when did these men leave your municipality and go to Ilok for this training?

A. Well, they left sometime towards the end of March 1992.

Q. Now, did there come a time when you had a second contact with members of the MUP of Serbia regarding the training of men from your municipality?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe for us the circumstances under which you had this second contact.

A. Well, sometime towards the end of March or in early April, the gentleman under number 13, as he heard that I was going to Belgrade, asked me to visit those young men that were doing their training and to try and make it to the training session, which I did.

Q. And how were you -- or who were you to see in order to be given access to this training facility? ²³⁴³⁴

A. Number 13 told me to get into contact with Mr. Milan Prodanic.

Q. And did you do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go to see Mr. Prodanic for the purpose of going to the training camp?

A. I went to the building of the MUP of Serbia. Actually, the information desk, reception area.

Q. Did you ask for him by name and where did he come to meet you at that building?

A. Yes. At the reception desk I introduced myself and asked to see the gentleman, and after some time had gone by, he came down to the ground floor. We went into a room that was opposite the reception desk, and I told him why I had come, what my business was. And later on, he sent me to visit those men that were doing their training.

Q. Did he describe to you how you were to get to Ilok?

A. Well, at first I didn't know where they actually were, but he said a car of ours and some people are going there he said. So he introduced me to a man who was going there and he said, "They're going there, so you can follow their car, and you'll arrive at the place where the training was being conducted."

Q. Who of note was in that car?

A. In the car was Frenki Simatovic.

Q. Had you met Frenki Simatovic prior to this day?

A. Well, I'd met him for the first time that day.

Q. Can you describe how he was dressed. ²³⁴³⁵

A. As far as I remember, I think that at the time, he was wearing civilian clothes, but the people who were with him were wearing camouflage, NATO uniforms and red berets on their heads, or, rather, on their shoulders, underneath the epaulette.

Q. And the vehicle that Frenki Simatovic was driving in, do you recall anything about the licence plate on that car?

A. The car had police licence plates, and it was a jeep. I think it was a Puch-type jeep.

Q. Now, after you left Belgrade, did there come a time when you arrived at a checkpoint before you arrived at the training camp?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was this checkpoint?

A. The checkpoint was somewhere just before you get to Ilok, on the road before Ilok.

Q. And how many men were at the checkpoint?

A. I noticed, I think, two men. Whether there were any others inside, I don't know, but I did see two armed men.

Q. And were those men wearing uniforms?

A. Yes, they were wearing uniforms, and they had automatic rifles too.

Q. How many cars in total, or how many vehicles in total travelled from Belgrade towards the training camp?

A. Well, the vehicle in front of me, and I was in the second car.

Q. Did the vehicle stop at the checkpoint?

A. Yes. ²³⁴³⁶

Q. Can you describe what happened at the checkpoint.

A. One of those two armed men came up to the jeep. I didn't hear what they said, but he said hello, and he saluted the people in the jeep. He greeted them, I'm sorry, and he just gave me a sign with his hand meaning go through.

Q. So were you checked with -- did you have to produce any documentation or were you stopped or prevented from going through that checkpoint on that day?

A. Well, I did stop, and it would have been logical for me to show my IDs, but as I was moving along behind the car in front, I was told that as you're going together with them, you can pass through.

Q. Now, can you describe what happened when the two vehicles arrived in the area of the training camp?

A. Well, the two cars didn't arrive at the training camp. We stopped first in front of a house, and there were soldiers there too. But it didn't look like a camp to me. And Mr. Frenki got out there, and so did the people who were with him, and I got up for a short time, and the people who were in uniforms and were armed, standing in front of that house, greeted Frenki, and he told one of them or, rather, he said to me that he would find somebody to take me around, to show me where the men were being trained. And several minutes later, a man in uniform, a young man, took me off a kilometre or so, which is where I visited the people from my town who were attending training there.

Q. How many armed men were in the vicinity of that house?

A. I don't know exactly, but there might have been four or five men, ²³⁴³⁷ certainly.

Q. And do you recall how they were dressed?

A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms, and they had those red berets.

Q. Did any of those men salute Frenki when he got out of his car or his jeep?

A. Yes. The ones who were at the door in front of the house. They did.

Q. You were saying that Frenki Simatovic said he would arrange for somebody to take you to the camp. Did there come a time when you actually were taken into the training camp at Ilok?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe what you saw at the training camp.

A. At the very entrance to the training camp there was a ramp, and when they lifted the ramp, I went in, and I was told that it used to be a villa of Tito's and that it was now a makeshift training area. It didn't look like a barracks or a military facility of any kind. And I saw these 20 people from my town. We said hello, we talked for a while. That's all.

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Q. Did you learn anything about the identity of any of the ²³⁴³⁸ instructors present at the camp or who the instructors were?

A. I learned later on that the instructors were members of this special unit of the state security of the MUP of Serbia.

Q. Did you learn the identity of any of the instructors present at the camp at that time?

A. One of the instructors was this gentleman under number 16.

Q. Did you learn the identity of any of the other instructors?

A. I learnt about another one, but he's not on this list here.

Q. Are you able to say his name without compromising your identity?

A. No.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that we go briefly into private session.

[Private session]

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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. How long had you spent at the camp? ²³⁴³⁹

A. About an hour, perhaps a little longer.

Q. And what, if anything, do you recall about the uniforms that the people in the camp were wearing?

A. I remember that these men from my town who were training there were wearing camouflage uniforms with red berets.

Q. Did you see any patches on the uniforms that the men from your town had or on the uniforms of any of the men you saw at the training camp?

A. I don't know whether I saw it just then, but later on they wore on those uniforms the patches of the Grey Wolf, the emblem of the Grey Wolf.

Q. When you say "later on," can you be more precise about when it was you saw this Grey Wolf's patch?

A. Upon returning to my town, it was then that I would see those patches on the same uniforms that I saw during that visit.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 349, tab 12.

Q. It is being displayed on the Sanction system on the TV screen before you. I'd ask you to look at that. Do you recognise what's depicted in Prosecution Exhibit 349, tab 12?

A. Yes. That is the emblem I was referring to.

Q. Now, when you left the camp, did you travel back from the camp alone or once again following Frenki Simatovic's jeep?

A. I returned alone. I went alone.

Q. Did you pass through the same checkpoint that you passed coming to the camp? ^{23440 BLANK PAGE 23441}

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe what happened this time you tried to go through the checkpoint?

A. They asked me to show my documents.

Q. And after showing your documents, did you also have a conversation with them regarding what you were doing in that area?

A. We didn't talk. They just looked at my documents and told me that I could move on.

Q. Did there come a time when members of the special unit of the Serbian state security came to the municipality that you're testifying about?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. That was on the 11th of April, 1992.

Q. How did you learn about their arrival?

A. This gentleman under number 13 informed me that on that day, those men were due to arrive, that we should prepare lunch and accommodation for them.

Q. Did number 13 tell you how many men were arriving?

A. He said that, in addition to the local men who had gone there for training, that another 30 new men would arrive.

Q. Did he say what the purpose of them, of these 30 men coming to the municipality, what the purpose of their arrival was?

A. At that point in time, he didn't say why. He just said that they were coming and that they should be provided with lunch and accommodation. ²³⁴⁴²

Q. At the time of their arrival, had there been any hostilities in this municipality up until this point?

A. Not any significant conflicts, but there was some minor acts of sabotage in the town and in the immediate vicinity.

Q. How did these men arrive?

A. These men arrived in two helicopters.

Q. And were these police helicopters or military helicopters or civilian helicopters?

A. I think they were military helicopters.

Q. This group of 50 men, what were they wearing, if you recall?

A. They were wearing those camouflage uniforms. On one arm they had the emblem that we just saw of the Grey Wolf, and they wore red berets.

Q. This group of men, did one of them appear to be in charge of the others?

A. Yes.

Q. And which one was that?

A. The gentleman under number 16.

Q. Now, when they arrived, who was present to greet them?

A. Apart from me, there was the local commander of this detachment in that place and two men from the brigade command.

Q. When you say "brigade command," are you referring to the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. The brigade that was stationed in the area, and at the time it was part of the JNA.

Q. Would I be correct in saying that these men were accommodated at a ²³⁴⁴³ local school before moving to another area still within the municipality you are testifying about?

A. Yes.

Q. Prior to the takeover of the municipality, were these men ever seen publicly in the centre of the town?

A. In the centre of town, as far as I know, they were not, but in the area in which they were put up, in a couple of those villages they did move around openly and they were seen there.

Q. I'm going to ask you to identify the names of any of the members of this unit that you can recall.

MR. GROOME: To do that, I would ask that we go into private session.

[Private session]

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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. You testified before about being asked to arrange lunch for these men. Did you arrange such a lunch?

A. Yes, I did, and others from that town organised lunch for them when they arrived.

Q. During the course of that lunch, did one of the men indicate his purpose for being there and on behalf of what organisation he was in this municipality?

A. One of them said that they had come on behalf of the Serbian Radical Party, for patriotic reasons, to assist the Serbian people in that area.

Q. Did he or any of the others indicate other areas in which they had previously fought?

A. I don't know whether it was at that very luncheon, but later on some of them mentioned that they had been in some other areas where there was combat.

Q. And do you recall the locations where they said there had been combat?

A. They mentioned Eastern Slavonia, around Vukovar? ²³⁴⁴⁵

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness now be shown Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 5, and if I might address the Court on this and a series of related exhibits. Your Honours, tabs 5, 6, 12, 14, and 16 are steno notes taken contemporaneously of the interview of five different individuals. These steno notes were taken during questioning by an investigative judge. In the fall of 1992, some of the crimes from this -- or in this municipality were investigated by a military court in Banja Luka, and a number of people were interviewed.

The Prosecution is tendering these steno notes based upon several indications of their reliability. First, that the interviews were taken shortly after the events described therein; secondly, the declarations in these interviews are declarations against the self-interest of the respective people who made them. They were recorded stenographically. The witness before the Court has checked and will -- I'm sorry. The stenographic notes were then presented to the declarants and they were given an opportunity to review them and sign them as to their accuracy. And lastly, the details or the substance of these interviews will be corroborated by the witness before the Court who has personal knowledge by -- of these events.

The last document from this package of documents related to this investigation is an indictment, and it is tab 10, dated the 5th of January, 1993. Now, as indictments themselves are not evidence, the Prosecution is tendering this particular document for simply two reasons: One, to corroborate biographical information of the first three people who are listed on the indictment; and secondly, as evidence that during this ²³⁴⁴⁶ time period, an investigation and the bringing of criminal charges was a possibility at least in one particular instance.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. They will be admitted on that basis.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at the last page of Prosecution Exhibit 476, tab 5, and my question to you is do you recognise the signature of this person?

A. Yes.

Q. And whose signature do you recognise that to be?

A. It is the signature of number 16.

Q. And have you had a chance to review the statement of this person identified as 16 from tab 3? Have you had a chance to review this statement and is it accurate as far as you are able to tell from your personal knowledge?

A. Yes, I have reviewed this statement several times, and it's mostly accurate.

Q. Are there any material inaccuracies that you wish to bring to the Court's attention?

A. I don't see anything of significance that I would need to pinpoint for the Court. I think that it is mostly correct.

Q. The statement makes reference to - and I ask you, do you know from your personal knowledge whether this person identified as number 16 - 16 received two vehicles for his participation in the events of this municipality.

A. The question is whether that is true? Is that the question? ²³⁴⁴⁷

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, it is true that this person under this number received those two vehicles.

Q. And what types of vehicles did this person receive?

A. A passenger vehicle, a Mercedes, and a Golf passenger vehicle.

Q. And was his receipt of -- I'm sorry. Do you know generally from where these two vehicles came? Not so much the particular identity of the individual owners, but do you know what the source was of these two vehicles?

A. The owners were Croats or Muslims, and this was considered to be war booty.

Q. And was the Crisis Staff, the Serbian Crisis Staff, aware of number 16 receiving these two vehicles?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they give official permission to him for having these vehicles?

A. As far as I know, there was no official document, but orally he was given permission to drive those two vehicles away.

Q. Were there any other members of the group that arrived from Serbia that also were given permission to take vehicles that you've described as coming from war booty?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. Mr. Groome is referring to this number 16 as being a person from Serbia, and from the ²³⁴⁴⁸ court documents it is clear that the person was treated as a citizen of Republika Srpska, that is, of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, the question is put in a way as to distort the facts.

JUDGE MAY: We will be able to consider where it was that he really came from. Yes.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, to the best of your knowledge, where was this person identified as number 16, where was he from?

A. That person is from Serbia.

Q. Do you know the particular town in Serbia he was from?

A. I do know from which town he was.

Q. Prior to --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, could you get him to explain what he means by "war booty."

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. If I may just clear up this particular point first, Your Honour.

Q. Prior to number 16 being involved in the events you're describing now with the war booty, had he had any other contacts or any other presence in the municipality you're testifying about?

A. Until the 11th of April, 1992, as far as I know, he hadn't been in that area. I think he didn't even come to visit that area.

Q. Judge Robinson is asking you to describe in greater detail, what do you mean when you use the term "war booty"?

A. After combat operations which were conducted in this particular case if we're talking about these two vehicles, those vehicles stayed ²³⁴⁴⁹ behind in the area after combat operations and then the soldiers who were in the area picked up the vehicles and brought them to the territory of the municipality and then a record was made of these vehicles coming from different -- from another area, including other property of any value that was found in the area that had been liberated.

Q. Would it be fair to say that this property, including the cars, was property that was left by either people that were killed during the takeover of the municipality or by people that fled the municipality and left their property behind?

A. I don't know. I think specifically regarding these two vehicles, the people were not there. They simply withdrew after the operations in that village. This wasn't in a town. It was in a village.

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MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask we go into closed session for a moment?

JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'm sorry about that.

[Private session]

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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I want to now draw your attention to the 15th of April, 1992. Did you attend a meeting on that day?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us who else was present at that meeting.

A. At that meeting number 9 was present, number 10, number 13. Later, number 16 arrived too, and perhaps a couple of other men.

Q. Aside from number 16, were there any other representatives of the Serbian DB present at the meeting?

A. I think not.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before going into the substance of the meeting, is this a convenient place for the court to adjourn?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. Two matters: For the press, I'm asked to remind you not to refer to the municipality, anything which might identify the municipality in this case.

Secondly, Witness B-1244, we're going to adjourn for the night. Could you be back, please, tomorrow at 9.00 to continue your evidence. Could you remember during it not to speak to anybody about it until it's ²³⁴⁵³ over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Very well. We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.