²⁴⁰²⁶

Thursday, 10 July 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would recall Ambassador Pasic -- or, Your Honour, the Prosecution had also requested that a decision on the 29 bis be expedited and I am prepared to make oral argument of that or any time today the Chamber would wish.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's get on with the witness first and we'll come back to that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A moment ago before a minute or so I received this binder for the witness after this one, and he's also under 92 bis, which in fact means that there won't be a live witness passing through these documents but that it would be up to me to assume and guess what's inside them.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take a seat.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Sorry you've been kept waiting all yesterday. Mr. Milosevic, as far as that's concerned, we'll deal with it -- let's deal with this witness first and then we'll come back and look at that witness and the binder, which we don't have yet, but we'll look at it in due course. ²⁴⁰²⁷

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just note for the record it's just a re-disclosure of materials that were originally provided on the 10th of January.

JUDGE MAY: Let us return to it after we finish this witness's evidence.

WITNESS: EDHEM PASIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

Q. Ambassador Pasic, we interrupted your testimony the other day when you were describing a visit to President Cosic's office. Before I ask you to continue on that topic, I would like to return to clarify a point that you made about interviews that you had with members of the Serbian MUP. And the point I would like to clarify is, did any of these interviews -- were you ever required to actually go to the offices of the Serbian MUP to have these interviews?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And with what frequency during this time period were you required to go to the Serbian MUP?

A. Very frequently, as I said last time, mostly on Mondays.

Q. And what would happen on a typical Monday interview that you would have at the -- in the building of the Serbian MUP?

A. Well, this is what it looked like: I would go up to the reception desk, somebody would come to fetch me, take me to one of the offices, and they asked me there about all the contacts I had with people who they thought were important people, and they knew everything about me, and very ²⁴⁰²⁸ often there was repetition. They'd ask me what they'd asked me the previous time. They asked me about my friends and everything else. And before Mr. Milosevic came to power, they would come to me from Bosnia or from abroad or from wherever. So those were the questions that I was asked mostly.

Q. Now, if I can return to your visit to President Cosic's office, if I understood you correctly, you described being in a waiting room with several other people, the waiting room being outside the direct office of President Cosic; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's right. The waiting room was in front of the office, there was another door that was open in front, as I said. There were quite a lot of people wearing uniforms, military ones and not only military uniforms but from Bosnia, Croatia, et cetera. There were also officers of the Yugoslav People's Army there too and they were engaged in a heated discussion. They held some documents in their hands, some maps and things like that.

Q. Was the Federal Minister of Foreign Affairs present in the waiting room during the time that you were there?

A. Yes.

Q. And that would be Mr. Jovanovic; is that correct?

A. That's right.

Q. How far away was Mr. Jovanovic from where you were sitting in the waiting room?

A. As far as I can remember now, one to two metres, three perhaps, and so on, not more. ²⁴⁰²⁹

Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Jovanovic had a phone conversation with somebody in the waiting room?

A. Yes, while we were waiting in the waiting room, Mr. Jovanovic -- actually, you could say he was on the telephone all the time.

Q. And based upon what you could hear Mr. Jovanovic saying, did you reach some conclusion about who it was he was speaking with?

A. Yes. From what I was able to hear, Mr. Jovanovic would frequently use the following sentences: "Yes, Mr. President." "Yes, President Slobo." "Yes, I'll convey that to Karadzic." "Yes, President, yes." And this -- and this sentence to the letter --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down and repeat what he said.

MR. GROOME:

Q. The interpreters are asking you to slow down a little bit, Ambassador Pasic. So I could ask you to do that and could you please repeat the last part of your last answer. They missed some of it. So if you could repeat some of the dialogue you recall Jovanovic saying.

A. I apologise. Mr. Jovanovic was on the telephone, and as far as I was able to hear at the time, this is what he said, quite literally: "Yes, yes, Mr. President. Yes, President Slobo. I'll convey that to Karadzic, yes. Yes. I won't allow that stupid Buha to get in front of the microphone. Yes." That's what I was able to hear.

Q. And approximately how long did that telephone conversation last?

A. There were several telephone conversations. They were interrupted and then they continued. I only heard these segments from those ²⁴⁰³⁰ conversations.

Q. And approximately how long was the conversation on the telephone that you believed was referring to President Slobodan, or that you're saying the word "President Slobo." How long was that conversation?

A. There were a number of conversations, and my impression was that all the conversations were conducted with Mr. Milosevic. However, afterwards, Mr. Jovanovic called some other people up and conveyed to them certain instructions.

Q. Now, did there come a time when you did enter the office of President Cosic to deal with this matter concerning Mr. Gadhafi of Libya?

A. Yes, that's right. We waited for a long time until the connection was established, and then we went inside. Mr. Jovanovic and I, we went into Mr. Cosic's office.

Q. Could I ask you, before I ask you what occurred inside that office, can you please describe where Mr. Cosic was sitting, where you were sitting, and where Mr. Jovanovic was sitting.

A. On the table was the telephone. Mr. Cosic was to my right. I was sitting down, I was on his left, therefore. Across from Mr. Cosic was Mr. Jovanovic.

Q. Now, can you please describe what occurred in that room, and only describe the events regarding Mr. Gadhafi to the extent that they are relevant to this Chamber's inquiry.

A. The Libyan leader had a very noble idea and asked the then-Yugoslav president, that is to say Mr. Dobrica Cosic, that all the leaders of the then-Yugoslavia should come to see him in Tripoli - he ²⁴⁰³¹ would send a special plane for them - and that they could negotiate a peaceful solution to the problems they had over there.

Q. And was the purpose of the discussion to make arrangements or negotiate regarding that matter or that offer?

A. Absolutely, yes. However, the important thing to stress here is that Mr. Cosic was not able to utter a single sentence to the Libyan leader. I had to translate everything that was said over the phone until Minister Jovanovic told him what to say.

Q. So am I correct in what you're describing, or understanding what you're describing, that when Mr. Gadhafi would say something to you on the phone, you would translate so that Mr. Cosic and Mr. Jovanovic could hear what you were translating; is that correct?

A. That's right --

Q. And who was responsible for --

A. -- Your Honours.

Q. Who was responsible for what was said back to Mr. Gadhafi during this telephone conversation?

A. Everything was decided during that conversation by Minister Jovanovic.

Q. And who would -- and then who would then -- am I correct in thinking that you would then translate whatever was said back to Mr. Gadhafi?

A. Absolutely correct, yes.

Q. What was the ultimate outcome? Was the offer by Mr. Gadhafi accepted or was it rejected? ²⁴⁰³²

A. The offer of the leader Mr. Gadhafi was neither rejected nor accepted.

Q. After that phone conversation, what happened?

A. After that phone conversation, Mr. Cosic asked everybody to leave his office, but he asked me to stay behind with him, alone.

Q. And did you have a conversation with Mr. Cosic regarding that telephone conversation and other matters?

A. Yes. I was surprised. I was really surprised, because I had never met Mr. Cosic before personally at all.

Q. Can you please summarise that conversation that you had with Mr. Cosic.

A. Mr. Cosic asked me at the time to be his advisor, as he said, for Islamic questions, as he put it, both within Yugoslavia and in relations with the Arab and Islamic world. He asked me many things about Islamic tolerance and literally, among other things, he said the following: "I would really like to ask you, because I've heard a lot about you, that you're a great expert in Islamic questions, for you to be my advisor, to help me." And he said the following sentence quite literally: "It is untenable that our Slav Muslims, Sunits, should be killed so brutally. Please come and be my advisor. Help me to do something."

Q. During his conversation with you, did he make any reference to his relationship with Mr. Milosevic?

A. Yes, he did, and that happened in the following way: The conversation went on for quite some time, and I told Mr. Cosic on the occasion - and he managed to charm me, I must say, with the attitude he ²⁴⁰³³ took - I said that I was one of those people from the generation who had taken great pleasure in reading the book. The book is called the Daleko Je Sunce, "Far is the Sun," about the anti-fascist struggle and everything, and from the book, and as I was meeting him for the first time, I was able to gather that this was a noble man who wanted to give meaning to his life. And then I said to President Cosic, each one of us wants to give meaning to their lives, to do good and prevent evil. And I said, "Mr. President, God has never given anyone a chance to give meaning to their lives as he has to you here today." And he was resigned and said, "What has God given me?" And I was so moved that I knelt down before the president and entreated him, "Please, save the Bosnian children. If you manage to save just one Bosnian child's life, you will have given meaning to your life." And then he whispered very sadly. He turned towards Dedinje Hill and he said: "How can I do that? You saw a moment ago I -- Despot Milosevic won't even allow me to open my mouth. I can't say anything. I'm just a puppet in his hands here. That is why I entreat you, be my advisor. I am trying to form, to set up a group of people, a group of experts in my cabinet, and I would like to try become independent, if I can. I have no authority here. I have been completely subjugated. You saw that a moment ago. Even this ordinary conversation with the Libyan leader I cannot conduct without being dictated to and told what to say."

Q. Ambassador, after this meeting with Mr. Cosic, did you ever have any future meetings with him regarding his proposal for you?

A. No. That was my last meeting with him. ²⁴⁰³⁴

Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to a period later, around the time that Mr. Panic was made Prime Minister. Were you invited to a celebration of his inauguration as Prime Minister?

A. Yes. The service for which I still worked officially was invited. Among my colleagues, the men and women, I was there too.

Q. And this celebration, would it have been after the fall of Vukovar and the events at Ovcara?

A. Yes, yes. And I was surprised, because one of the people who greeted us in the White Palace, Beli Dvor, when we arrived at the reception, was Mr. Sljivancanin, and he gave us the impression that he was some sort of chief there, head of the employees in that facility.

Q. Did Mr. Milosevic arrive or attend that celebration?

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic did arrive later on.

Q. Was he there at the same time that Mr. Sljivancanin, or Colonel Sljivancanin, was present?

A. No. I didn't see that because the celebrations took place in the park of the White Palace, its grounds.

Q. Now, during the course of that evening, did Colonel Sljivancanin make statements regarding what had occurred in Vukovar?

A. Yes. Colonel Sljivancanin sat at our table for a time, and he spoke about his so-called moves in Vukovar, how he bravely killed the enemy, and so on.

Q. And was he saying these statements privately or were they said in confidence or were they said publicly to the people at the table?

A. He said that publicly in front of all of us round that table. ²⁴⁰³⁵

Q. Is there anything else of importance that occurred at this during course of this evening?

A. What was quite obvious that evening was that there was the diplomatic corps there, all the high-ranking officials of the federal state at the time, and of Serbia too, but it was quite obvious that Mr. Milosevic was the number one personage during the evening.

Q. And what do you base that conclusion on?

A. I base that conclusion on the fact that when Mr. Milosevic appeared on the terrace of the White Palace, there was a round of applause. Some people applauded him and everyone in a way was happy to see him.

Q. Now, you testified the day before yesterday that you remained in Belgrade up until 1994. If I could draw your attention to the fall of 1992, the period of time between the fall of 1992 and up until the time you left in 1994, did you ever have occasion to see the movement of Yugoslav army troops in and around the Belgrade area?

A. Yes, of course. During that period, the general situation in Belgrade was such that it was geared towards Bosnia and Croatia, and you could see convoys very often moving around town, military convoys crossing the bridges across the Sava River. Belgrade was full of different men in different uniforms belonging to different troops. Belgrade restaurants were full of them. You could see uniforms everywhere, especially at the beginning of 1992 and 1993. These people were excited, talking about their so-called war feats in Bosnia, Croatia, et cetera.

Q. If troops were to move from Belgrade to Bosnia, would they have to ²⁴⁰³⁶ cross the bridges over the Sava River?

A. Yes, absolutely right. All roads led from Belgrade across the Sava River bridges.

Q. Now, the next topic I would ask you to deal with the Chamber has heard some evidence about concerning media reports. Can I ask you to summarise briefly what you recall about the media reports that you saw while living in Belgrade during this time period?

A. The situation in Belgrade for all of us, that is to say non-Serbs and for all free-thinking Serbs who were not -- did not think like Mr. Milosevic, the situation was very difficult. In a difficult situation of this kind, the media gave their incredible contribution, both the written media, that is to say the press, and the electronic media.

Q. Could I ask you to describe just generally the types of media accounts that you saw, that you believed to be being used in this manner.

A. Not only in the written press but in the electronic media, especially television played its key role, and almost every night on television you would have programmes talking about the fact that all other nations were genocidal and it was only the Serbs that were threatened and jeopardised during that time, that they should return their dignity. It was all fabricated and rigged. And let me say that one evening there was a particular programme which said that the Muslims in Bosnia or, rather, the Bosnian army was raping only Serb women. And in that programme there were several so-called experts who had been called in to appear, doctors, professors and others, and there was a woman there and she spoke in the Bosnian dialect, and her -- her back was turned to the camera and you ²⁴⁰³⁷ could deduce that she was a pregnant woman, you could just see her silhouette. There were similar programmes every night, but in this particular one, the lady said that she had been raped repeatedly in Bosnia, somewhere around Tuzla, and as she said, Alija's soldiers were terribly brutal towards her, she called them, towards her and the other ladies who were there. They were terribly brutal until she became pregnant, finally. Once she became pregnant, they behaved quite differently and decently. And then they asked her to go -- to move to the territory which was under Serb control. She asked them. And the experts in the programme taking part explained about why that was so, why that happened. I think that it was Doctor Professor Vlado Vojvodic. I don't know exactly, but I know that he introduced himself as being a doctor and a professor and a specialist from the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade, and he said to the letter the following sentence: "I'm not only a doctor and specialist for such-and-such, I am at the same time, and many people won't know this, an expert for Islamic studies. I'm an Islamologist. And everything that our patient said a moment ago is true, because in their genocidal book the Koran, it says --" and he quoted the paragraph, the sentence that he was referring to about -- it says, "Muslims, rape the infidels whenever you have a chance to do so, especially Serb women. Rape them and be brutal towards them until one of them becomes pregnant."

Q. Ambassador, if I could now draw your attention to another topic, are you familiar with a person by the name of Milanko Renovica?

A. Yes, I do know the person. I know Mr. Milanko Renovica. ²⁴⁰³⁸ Mr. Milanko Renovica was at one time a high-ranking official in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was also president of the Presidency and party president as well, and I would often have occasion to see him while he was holding his post in Bosnia-Herzegovina. At one time he had a position in Belgrade. I don't know which one, but I think a high-ranking Yugoslav party function it was.

Q. Ambassador, I'm more interested at this time in did you ever have occasion to overhear a conversation that he was having in a restaurant that you were also present in regarding events in Foca?

A. Yes, absolutely correct.

Q. When -- when, to the best of your recollection --

A. That was --

Q. -- was this conversation?

A. That conversation, as far as I can recollect now, took place in July 1992.

Q. And can you summarise that conversation, as best you recall it.

A. It took place in the restaurant of the Palace Hotel in Belgrade. I was having dinner of an evening with two of my friends. The restaurant that night was full to capacity, and most of the people there, as it wasn't a large restaurant, as far as I was able to see, came from Bosnia. All of them had large quantities of food and the most expensive drinks out on their tables, and in -- at one of the next door tables was Milanko Renovica. I feared that he might recognise me and I tried as much as possible to have my back towards him. At Milanko Renovica's table, I heard some very -- some stories that I could barely stomach at the time. ^{24039 BLANK PAGE 24040} Everybody bragged about that. They bragged about, boasted about what they had done in Foca. And finally, they summarised and said the following: "It's not important how many balijas were there, Muslims there. The important thing is that there'll never be any of them there again."

Q. The last topic I would ask you to deal with is the following: You are a member of the Muslim faith, are you not?

A. That's right.

Q. During this time period, did you attend a mosque in Belgrade? During the time you were living in Belgrade.

A. I am of Muslim faith, but I'm proud of the multi-cultural Bosnia and Herzegovina. In those days, I did go occasionally, because the situation was so difficult, and it was the only place where all of us who happened to be in Belgrade found ourselves in an intolerable, humiliating situation. We went there perhaps to find a way of doing something for ourselves.

Q. Could I ask you to tell us the name of the mosque and the neighbourhood in Belgrade where it is situated.

A. That is easy because it is the only remaining mosque in Belgrade. It's a small one. It's called Bajrakli dzamija. It's at the end of Knez Mihajlova Street, towards Kalemegdan Park to the right.

Q. When you would go to the mosque, were you ever videotaped entering the mosque?

A. Yes. Almost regularly all of us who gathered there in fear were exposed to regular filming by the official TV station of Serbia. The cameraman would zoom on each individual, from one face to another, so that ²⁴⁰⁴¹ each face was registered. And this would also happen during prayers. I remember once that the Belgrade imam was interrupted, and he was unable to contain himself, but he told the cameraman on whose camera the word Filipovic was written, he said, "Sir, will you please stop filming us? You're filming not just our faces but also our shoes. Finish your job so we can start our prayers." The cameraman answered arrogantly, "Everyone's doing his job. I am on assignment here."

Q. Did there ever come a time when the mosque came under attack?

A. Yes. While I was still in Belgrade, the mosque was attacked twice.

Q. And can you please summarise the severity of the attack and the general circumstances surrounding those two attacks.

A. Those attacks, as far as I can remember, took place at night, and I am convinced that the aim of those attacks was to increase fear and terror among the Muslims so that they would leave Belgrade. I remember on Fridays when I would go to the mosque many faces were missing. People left or either they were afraid to come.

Q. Could I ask you to describe the attacks in greater detail. What type of attacks; what was used, if you know; what damage was done, if you know.

A. Those were attacks with grenades, as far as I can remember. Hand grenades were thrown in. And the external part of the mosque was partially damaged.

Q. And to the best of your recollection, when did these attacks occur? ²⁴⁰⁴²

A. This was -- one attack was in 1992. Then there was another one. I don't know whether it was at the end of the 1992 or the beginning of 1993, but I'm sure that there were two attacks.

Q. Did you have a conversation with a member of the mosque regarding his attempts to seek protection for the mosque from Mr. Milosevic after these attacks?

A. Yes, I did talk to the Belgrade mufti. His name is Mr. Hamdija Jusuf-Spahic. He understood the situation of dreadful terror that all of us were exposed to in Belgrade, and he tried to flirt with Mr. Milosevic, using the slogans of protecting Yugoslavia, et cetera. And he kept asking Mr. Milosevic to receive him so that he could protect the Muslims who were frightened to death. However, as far as I know, Mr. Milosevic never wanted to receive Mr. Jusuf-Spahic.

Q. Would Mr. Jusuf-Spahic have been one of the most prominent members of the Muslim community living in Belgrade, or even in Serbia at that time?

A. Yes, absolutely. He was the Belgrade mufti. He was the leading figure for all Muslims in the whole of Serbia.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

Q. Thank you, Ambassador.

A. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that I don't forget, because this is not in the statement, and I was told that Mr. Groome would examine him very briefly ... ²⁴⁰⁴³ Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, at the end you spoke about the attacks on the Bajrakli mosque. First you said it was the only remaining mosque in Belgrade. Did anyone destroy any mosques in Belgrade so this was the remaining one when you use that expression?

A. Absolutely so. When the Turks withdrew from Belgrade in 1846, there were 364 mosques in Belgrade. All of them were destroyed, and only this Bajrakli one remained.

Q. When were those mosques destroyed except for this one that was left standing?

A. Immediately after the Turks left. And I don't think that is the subject of this testimony.

Q. It is, because you've said it was the only remaining one. So the impression one has is that we had destroyed some mosques. There were no other mosques even before I was born and before you were born as far as I know too. Was a single mosque in Belgrade destroyed in Belgrade or in Serbia?

A. I said a moment ago, Mr. Milosevic, all of them were destroyed. After the Turks left, after the Turks left and the persecution.

Q. You're talking about the nineteenth century, aren't you?

A. Yes. But I will remind you, Mr. Milosevic, that there were more than 12.000 Muslims in Belgrade and this small remaining mosque and I underlining "remaining," could certainly not satisfy the needs of the faithful. But your authorities would never allow a new mosque to be built. And I was a witness when the Libyan leader, Gadhafi, as you've ²⁴⁰⁴⁴ asked me let me remind you, I think it was in 1996, had agreed with the then-president of the Presidency of Yugoslavia at the time. I was a witnessed at that; I interpreted on that occasion. Mr. Petar Stambolic was the president at the time. The visit occurred on a Friday, the day of prayers, and he officially accompanied Mr. Gadhafi to this small Belgrade mosque, and he said, "Let me build you a mosque, let me assist you." Because people were praying in the street because the mosque is small. But you would never allow Gadhafi or anyone else to build a new mosque.

Q. What did I have to do with any of that in 1986, with anything, permissions for the building of a garage, never find a mosque.

A. But you never wanted to receive the mufti. Among other things, he wanted to complain about not allowing a mosque to be built.

Q. This is one of the untruths among many that you have uttered. I received Mr. Hamdija Jusuf-Spahic innumerable times, and I consider him to be an honourable man. Maybe I overdid it when I said innumerable times, but certainly many times.

Secondly, do you know, since I see you worked in the federal government, that there wasn't a single official reception in Serbia that among other religious leaders that were invited to attend that Mr. Jusuf-Spahic was not invited to? Was there a single formal occasion, any celebration by the city of Belgrade, the state of Serbia or the state of Yugoslavia that Mr. Jusuf-Spahic was not invited to? I met him on many occasions. On those occasion and also on others.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer the question. ²⁴⁰⁴⁵ What he's put is that in fact this gentleman was asked to receptions in Belgrade and by the federal government. Can you help about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that he was invited, but Mr. Jusuf-Spahic on, endless occasions, told me that Mr. Milosevic never wanted to receive him officially. At all official receptions, Mr. Jusuf-Spahic begged to be allowed to make a new mosque, but he was never given permission to do so.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. I'm not just saying how many times I met Mr. Jusuf-Spahic, exchanged greetings, shook hands with him at official occasion, but I'm also saying that he came to my office on several occasions. He asked to be received and was received. But you obviously don't know that. You're saying that none of this is true?

A. It's one thing to shake hands with someone and it's something else to receive him in official audience and hear his requests.

Q. I said both.

A. In all the conversations I had with Mr. Jusuf-Spahic, and I had them frequently, I never understood that you did him the honour of receiving him.

Q. Well, I'm telling you now I did receive him several times. Secondly, you know that only an irresponsible person, obviously a criminal, threw a hand grenade into the yard of the mosque and that after that, the police guarded the mosque.

A. But at the same time, your TV filmed each of our faces. ²⁴⁰⁴⁶

Q. Mr. Pasic, I think really there's no point in making such assertions because the TV films liturgies in the palace church in Belgrade and the faces of people attending those liturgies. When the patriarch is giving a sermon or a bishop, this is frequently filmed and shown on television. So why is this a question of importance? Surely the media are free. Are they nod allowed to film these things? We see them filming liturgies in Jerusalem, on various masses that are being filmed on television?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer, yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that liturgies and masses are filmed and broadcast, but in this case there was only filming and not broadcasting. I think Mr. Jusuf-Spahic provided an answer when, with resignation, he appealed to the cameraman to allow him to continue the prayers.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The patriarch, His Holiness Mr. Pavle could also tell the cameraman to move out, if he's nervous, if he's being bothered by his presence. But let us not waste any more time on this point. Did you, for instance, see on television when there's a formal service in the mosque in Belgrade on the occasion of Bajram or some other religious holiday? Then there's a short feature. Of course, the cameraman films a longer period, but then a short report appears in the news that there was a celebration of such-and-such an event. Did you see that on television?

A. Yes. Only on Montenegrin television and only when Montenegro ²⁴⁰⁴⁷ managed to get rid of you, at least to some extent.

Q. But you never saw that on Belgrade television, that Muslim believers are celebrating their holiday? You never saw that?

A. In your time that was impossible.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic, very well. That's fine. Now, tell me, do you at least remember that after that incident when someone threw in a hand grenade into the mosque yard nobody was hurt and no serious damage was done, that the police guarded the mosque to prevent any such thing from happening again, because it was assumed that this was someone irresponsible, someone among those who had fled from the areas where they had been subjected to the terror of Muslim forces had done it and they had sought shelter in Belgrade and had found it?

A. Belgrade at the time was full of - what do you call them - paramilitaries under your direct control.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. I never had any paramilitaries, but that is not the subject of your testimony. We will leave that to the opposing side.

Do you know that the police took care of not just the Bajrakli mosque in Belgrade but made sure that not a single mosque in Serbia should be damaged and that not a single one was damaged?

A. Yes, but I said that the Belgrade mosque was damaged twice.

Q. You referred to those two incidents.

A. But the mosque was damaged twice.

Q. Yes. And the police guarded it.

A. I don't know how it guarded it. If they had guarded it properly, ²⁴⁰⁴⁸ the damage wouldn't have happened.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. During the war in Bosnia, was a single mosque destroyed in Serbia, a single one?

A. In Serbia, let me not mention the suffering of Muslims under your control.

Q. I'm asking you whether a single one was damaged.

A. I don't know, because I was living in Belgrade. But I repeat that your police cared for the mosque so well that it was damaged or bombed twice.

Q. You mean when someone throws in a hand grenade at night into the yard that is bombing, that is bombardment?

A. Absolutely.

Q. The police carried out an investigation and then guarded it, making sure that it wouldn't happen again. No one was hurt. In fact, the state provided funds for it to be repaired and for other things to be done linked to the mosque.

JUDGE MAY: A separate point and then I think we've exhausted this particular topic. Mr. Pasic, can you help us, were funds provided for the repair, if you know?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For repairing the mosque do you mean, Your Honour?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's what's being alleged.

A. Yes. As far as I know, funds were never provided by Mr. Milosevic. They were collected by the faithful themselves. And as far as they were able, they renovated and repaired their facilities. ²⁴⁰⁴⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So the state never provided any money for the repairs of the mosque in Belgrade. That is what you are asserting; is that right? Very well. That's fine.

A. I don't know that the only Belgrade mosque ever received anything from you. I don't know that.

Q. You don't need to know that, but you know other things which you really couldn't -- you couldn't have known. Anyway, since we have established that not a single mosque in Belgrade was destroyed, not a single one throughout that time, did any Muslim, because he was a Muslim, was he arrested or killed in Serbia during the whole period of the war in Bosnia? Do you know perhaps about that?

A. All of us who were living --

Q. You were all killed, were you?

A. Under your rule of terror, Mr. Milosevic, exchanged greetings in whispers, saying to one another, "How is your yellow band doing?"

Q. Why? Were you wearing a yellow ribbon around your shoulders?

A. That is how we felt.

Q. You are claiming that is how you felt?

A. Yes. All your broadcasts in all your media representing the Muslims as genocidal resulted in this horrific condition.

Q. Surely this horrific condition was brought about by the behaviour of Islamic extremists in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the horrific atrocities they committed against the Serbs in those days, Mr. Pasic, and not what you call my television. ²⁴⁰⁵⁰

A. As you were the stage manager of everything, of the horrific ethnic cleansing due to which you are sitting where you're sitting, started from Belgrade.

Q. Mr. Pasic, I know very well why I am sitting in this chair --

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to have this sort of argument, and it's no point personalising it. Find some other topic, Mr. Milosevic, than this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You mentioned -- it's not in your statement but you mentioned Milanko Renovica and, yes, he was a politician from Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was also president of the Presidency of the Central Committee and he occupied the top posts in Yugoslavia. At the beginning of those conflicts, he withdrew from political life completely. Nobody ever heard of him throughout the war. The man was quite passive. So how come now you ascribe to Milanko Renovica some kind of Serb nationalism?

A. Your Honours, that Mr. Renovica was not a nationalist. He wouldn't sit around in the restaurant of the Palace Hotel with people like that. And as far as I was informed, Mr. Renovica was sort of a political advisor of some sort to Karadzic.

Q. Well, I heard about that, Mr. Pasic, things like that being said, but that was towards the end of the war. And as a pensioner, otherwise he lived in his weekend cottage in Sokolac where he originated from and he was completely passive throughout the war. But I did hear about that, that at the end of the war, as an experienced politician with many years of experience, the leadership of Republika Srpska did ask him to assist ²⁴⁰⁵¹ them with respect to certain -- to giving certain political advice, but that was right at the end of the war.

Q. That's what you heard, Mr. Milosevic. What I heard was that you ordered him to be an advisor to Karadzic.

Q. All right, Mr. Pasic. Judging by what you're saying, I was in charge of the television, I wrote the newspapers, I appointed counsellors and advisors to everyone.

A. Yes, absolutely correct.

Q. Yes, yes, absolutely so. But let's move on. You spoke about the media, the nationalist programmes. Unfortunately, it is -- you will be -- you know that scripta remnant, verba volant, the Latin proverb "what is written remains" and we'll be able to go through all that, all the media. Those who were under state control or state influence, they in fact worked to calm the situation. So what you're saying is not true, Mr. Pasic.

A. That's not true.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must ask questions rather than making statements, as you know quite well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Pasic, you quoted an example from the media. You quoted programmes, broadcasts about a Serb woman who had been raped and was quite obviously pregnant. Well, is that a Serb crime maybe, that a Serb be raped, a Serb woman be raped by the Muslim side? And you are bringing that up as a crime committed by the Serbs.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I just quoted one of many examples put forward by ^{24052 BLANK PAGE 24053} your television. The crime was what the media wanted to show, and the man said quite literally, he introduced himself as being professor and doctor, that in the Koran it said that the infidel women should be raped until they become pregnant, and once they become pregnant behave decently towards them because the child that is going to be born will be a Mujahedin, which means that this is a pladjijet [phoen]. And you wanted -- instead of preventing unbelievable broadcasts of that kind --

Q. Well, I don't believe that there was a programme like that. And secondly, tell me what the Koran does indeed say about that. I haven't read that paragraph of the Koran, but perhaps you could tell me.

JUDGE MAY: We are getting a very long way from the subject matter of this case, and this kind of argument does not assist the Trial Chamber. Now, find something else to ask the witness about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll ask him about other things, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You mentioned Sljivancanin. In your statement, you wrote -- you wrote: "I saw Sljivancanin in the White Palace. He was a great hero and boasted about how he had destroyed Vukovar," which is quite unbelievable. And then you say: "He said that he had been given this post by Milosevic, whom he referred to as the Commander-in-Chief."

Now, please, Mr. Pasic, we have to have -- you can't falsify material facts. Do you know --

JUDGE MAY: Let us find out first of all whether what is alleged is true. ²⁴⁰⁵⁴ Did Sljivancanin say that he had been given a post by Milosevic who he referred to as the Commander-in-Chief? Now, did that happen, Mr. Pasic, or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sljivancanin, at the time, really did speak about those feats of his. And when Mr. Milosevic appeared on the balcony of the White Palace, he got up, saluted him in military fashion, and later on he said that Mr. Milosevic was the greatest leader that the Serbs ever had and that he would quite certainly preserve this great state and that we could quite obviously -- you could deduce that Mr. Sljivancanin saw Mr. Milosevic as being his Supreme Commander.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I see. You deduced this. And was it only Sljivancanin who got up when I came in or did you all get up? Perhaps you yourself didn't get to your feet.

A. I don't remember. There were a lot of people.

Q. Well, I think that everybody got up to their feet.

A. Yes, you're right as far as that is concerned.

Q. So if you all got up, why did you single out Sljivancanin from all those many people?

A. Well, Sljivancanin had a smiling face and turned towards you and saluted you as you would a military commander.

Q. I see. That was your deduction, was it? Now, you say -- now, do you know that Sljivancanin was, as far as I know, assistant commander of the Guards Brigade for security, or chief of the department - I don't know how this was defined - of the Guards Brigade. Do you know about that? ²⁴⁰⁵⁵

A. Well, you best know how you deployed your commanders.

Q. Mr. Pasic, that was at the time when I had no jurisdiction over the JNA, and Mr. Sljivancanin was in the Guards Brigade. He was there before I ever became president, and the Guards Brigade precisely has the function of providing security for the leadership of the SFRY or the FRY, whichever you like, so he was performing his job, and that's how he came to be there, not in any other capacity.

A. It's interesting that I never saw Mr. Sljivancanin there before, and he occupied that post even before. I saw him only after those, in inverted commas, courageous feats of his in Vukovar.

Q. All right, Mr. Pasic. I don't want to dwell on that any further, but as you yourself have just confirmed what you wrote in your statement, that's not true, and I have to listen to stupid things of that kind.

A. Let me repeat. Mr. Sljivancanin found himself in the White Palace for the first time after those feats.

Q. Mr. Pasic, the Guards Brigade provide security for the White Palace and its grounds, and Sljivancanin had to provide security. And in 1989 and 1990, and 1991 and 1992.

A. Well, why wasn't he ever there before?

Q. How should I know that whether he was there or not? Were you always there, in the White Palace, to see who was coming and going?

JUDGE MAY: I think we've had sufficient of this argument.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Pasic, I think you didn't answer to the question whether Mr. Sljivancanin had said that he had been given a post by Mr. Milosevic, who he referred to as the Commander-in-Chief. ²⁴⁰⁵⁶

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He spoke about Mr. Milosevic with admiration, and he would speak at length of how he went to war in Croatia and so on, and he saw Mr. Milosevic as a Supreme Commander. And he said at one point that Mr. Milosevic had appointed him to be some kind of maitre d' or the main host in the White Palace.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Pasic, that reception was organised by the organisers of the federation. You don't suppose that I dealt with matters of protocol in the federation. How can you claim that at all?

A. But you probably rewarded some of the warriors.

Q. I don't think there's any point in me asking you anything else about that. You've gone beyond anything of good taste and style. Tell me please, Mr. Pasic, you're a Muslim yourself, as you've said, who until 1994 worked in the government, in the SFRY and later on in the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. That's right, isn't it? Until 1994; isn't that right, Mr. Pasic?

A. Yes, that's right, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. So as far as I can see, nobody dismissed you from your job, did they, in the post you occupied, either before 1994 or in 1994. Isn't that right, Mr. Pasic?

A. Well, all those services, federal services, of Yugoslavia at the time when you came into power was purged of all those who did not agree with your concepts. So not only the non-Serbs but the Serbs too who didn't support you whole-heartedly. They had to leave too, step down from these organs. ²⁴⁰⁵⁷

Q. Mr. Pasic, there's no point in telling untruths of that kind. Would you please just limit your answers to answering my questions. What I asked you was this: Nobody dismissed you from the job you have occupied before 1994 or in 1994; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Please, just answer my questions, and if you want to make a statement, you can ask the Trial Chamber to allow you to make a statement, but it is your duty to answer my questions.

Is it true that in 1994, as you yourself say in your statement on page 4, paragraph 7, that you fled from Belgrade, from Yugoslavia, and went to Hungary?

A. That's true.

Q. And then from thence you went on to Cairo?

A. That's true.

Q. So why did you flee from Yugoslavia? Tell me that. Why did you escape?

A. In formal terms, I stayed on in my job. You read my statement. I was demoted; nobody gave me any work to do, I didn't have any work to do. You read in my statement that I was protected too by a highly-positioned friend at the time, and had it not been for him, God knows what would have happened to me and my family.

Q. Mr. Pasic, I don't know what God knows and what God knows would have happened to you, but tell me this: In Yugoslavia at that time until you had fled, as you say, were you prosecuted in any way? Was any lawsuit brought against you or anything of that kind? ²⁴⁰⁵⁸

A. Never. No lawsuit was ever brought against me, no criminal charges.

Q. All right. Now, did you have any private problems for which you say you had to flee Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, absolutely so. I was exposed many times to unpleasantnesses of various kinds and threats.

Q. Mr. Pasic, you can fabricate and invent things of that kind elsewhere but not here. Tell me --

JUDGE MAY: No. No, you can't put allegations like that. If you want to suggest that the witness is fabricating, you can, but you can't put a generalisation of that sort. Are you suggesting that he's fabricating that he was subjected to threats?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course. Well, he worked in the federal organs in 1994 and then he got into some vehicle of some kind and drove off to Hungary quite freely, without any -- without any obstacles.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had a good time of it, why would I have had to flee?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, I assume you had other ambitions, Mr. Pasic, but I don't want to delve into that now.

Tell me this, please: Did any organ ever take away your travelling documents?

A. No, but I was controlled and supervised all the time.

Q. Please, Mr. Pasic. That means you had your passport, and the most lenient measure -- the first measure to bear out what you are saying when ²⁴⁰⁵⁹ you said that they wouldn't allow you to go -- to leave with your secrets, that's what you started off by saying, well, the least thing they would have done was to ask you to return your passport. And they didn't take your passport away. So, Mr. Pasic, my question to you is this: Why do you say you escaped when you normally got into a vehicle of some kind with a passport in your pocket, you passed the border crossing quite normally, went through customs control and passport control and nobody detained you and you just drove off into Hungary?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I worked in Belgrade for a long time, as chance would have it, until you came to power, and I really did feel quite civilised there. I lived a civilised life. But after you arrived, after your advent, luckily I had friends because there were honourable people in your institutions too, and they provided me with protection and they assisted me, Mr. Milosevic, and helped me not have my passport taken away from me.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let us clarify. What was it that you fled from?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fled from unbearable degradation and terror that we all lived through in Belgrade. It wasn't only I myself who fled but honourable Serbs left the country too. Mr. Bogdan Bogdanovic, a case in point. He left. He couldn't take it any more. And many other honourable Serbs.

I felt at the time just like any Jew would have felt in 1941 or 1942 in Berlin. I didn't feel -- I felt -- that's how I felt. I didn't feel in any other way. ²⁴⁰⁶⁰

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's just establish the facts, Mr. Pasic. You claimed during the examination-in-chief that allegedly the representatives of the police said that they wouldn't allow you, wouldn't permit you to leave, and we have taken note that nobody took away your travel documents and that you crossed the border quite legally. You showed your passport, you passed through the passport and customs control, and as you know, at the passport control they always have a list of persons blacklisted, people who they keep back. You were not on the list, I'm sure, because you were allowed to pass across the border. So why did you say you fled? You just travelled to Budapest.

A. Well, as I said, there were honourable Serbs, friends of mine who provided protection. And then in certain villages they even provided accommodation for me had I needed it.

Q. All right, Mr. Pasic. We have established the facts and can now move on.

If it was the way -- if things were the way you say they were, that times were difficult in the way you describe them, I was president as of 1989, you were leaving Belgrade quite legally with a passport in your pocket and you were travelling to Budapest, why didn't you leave Belgrade before that? Why did it take you five years? You lived under those conditions in which you say you felt like a Jew in 1941 and 1942. Why did you stay there for five years?

A. Because I -- you know full well, Mr. Milosevic, that Belgrade was full of people loyal to you, servants to you, members of Arkan's ²⁴⁰⁶¹ formations, Seselj's men. At every bus stop in Belgrade, you would see proclamations asking people to call up for training, young men to be trained. And many people who attempted to leave Belgrade before me had some unpleasantness. Some people even committed suicide. At least, that's what your press reported.

Q. I don't know what you're talking about now, who committed suicide.

A. Well, I'll explain what I mean, with your permission.

Q. Go ahead, explain. I don't understand what you're talking about now.

A. My very dear colleague, a man I used to work with, was the late Mr. Zeljko Biserko, and he managed to escape to Hungary before me, that same country. I don't know, but your press wrote at the time that he committed suicide after he had escaped to Hungary. And the people who controlled him told me very often, "You mustn't leave without our knowledge, because what self- -- because suicide could befall you too."

Q. Mr. Pasic, were that true, wouldn't they have just taken your passport away from you?

A. Let me remind you that I had amongst those people too people who respected me as I did them. They were my friends.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. In any event, the facts say that not a single official organ provided any obstacles, that you were not fired in 1994 but that you left normally and legally to Budapest.

JUDGE MAY: I think we have now exhausted this topic. We have been over it many times. Let's move on to something else.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. ²⁴⁰⁶²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say that in 1991, you were demoted to the lowest position of apprentice and that you had nothing -- nothing was given you to do.

A. Not apprentice but the initial level.

Q. Was there a reorganisation in the service or something? Or maybe I engaged in the organisation of the administration in the federal government.

A. Of course you didn't, but your men did. Mr. Cosic couldn't open his mouth without your orders.

Q. I'm really surprised that you're speaking in such a humiliating manner about Mr. Cosic. But Mr. Cosic is alive, and I assume it's not a problem for him to confirm or deny such allegations on your part. I think it is really in bad taste for you to speak in that way about Mr. Cosic.

A. I'm not speaking about Mr. Cosic without respect, Mr. Milosevic, but if there is a humiliating position, then it was Mr. Cosic's position, and you were the cause of it. He told me that himself. That's why he wanted me to be his advisor.

Q. I'm really intrigued. You say that Mr. Cosic offered you the post of advisor. Why didn't you accept to be his advisor?

A. I could never accept that for moral reasons. If Mr. Cosic was your puppet, then logically his advisors would be that as well.

Q. Mr. Pasic, surely set yourself some limits. Mr. Cosic is a proud man. It is really in bad taste to describe him as my puppet.

JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about bad taste. This is what the witness said happened. Now, you can challenge it if you want. There's no ²⁴⁰⁶³ point arguing.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm not arguing at all. I think it is in bad taste for this witness to insult in that way a person such as Dobrica Cosic. It is really in bad taste.

JUDGE MAY: First of all, it doesn't matter about the taste. It's the evidence we're interested in here and we're concerned with, and it's what the witness said happened. Now, you can challenge it, as I've said, but that is the evidence. It doesn't matter about the taste or anything of the sort.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. To insult people is certainly in bad taste.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So at least in the period you were referring to, you were not working in the Foreign Ministry but you were in the translation service of the federal government.

A. Of the federal Executive Council or the federal organs; it doesn't matter.

Q. And who was your superior?

A. I don't quite remember who was my superior because I said I was demoted.

Q. Well, tell me, who replaced you from the position of head of section that you say you headed?

A. Like many, the plan was for me to be fired from that service, but one of my friends who had power in spite of your reign of terror kept me in that starting position because that was the only way that he could ²⁴⁰⁶⁴ protect me and my frightened family.

Q. Mr. Pasic, we have established that no one fired you in 1992 or in 1994 when you left Belgrade in a legal manner which you yourself are not denying. Now, who is the person who replaced you? How can you not remember that somebody demoted you? Who is that person who was your immediate superior and who replaced you?

A. In all federal bodies, detailed purges were carried out.

Q. I'm asking you for the name of your superior who signed a decision whereby you're being appointed to another position.

A. I can't remember.

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go over this again. He says he doesn't remember.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You claim that every Monday you went to the MUP of Serbia for an interview.

A. Yes. I worked in the federal organs, yet I went to the MUP of Serbia.

Q. And you say that some people raided your apartment.

A. That is true as well.

Q. Did you see anyone searching your apartment?

A. I saw the results of such searches.

Q. So somebody secretly, when you were not in the apartment, broke in and searched it.

A. Yes. Some people from your services would come. They were always in plain clothes. They never introduced themselves. They would enter the ^{24065 BLANK PAGE 24066} apartment while we were inside, my family and me, and they took away a number of my books which they considered to be -- considered fundamentalist material because they were in the Hebrew, Persian, or Arabic languages.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. Since you were an official or, rather, an employee of the federal organs, therefore, you were aware of your civil rights. Do you have any certificate for the property seized from you, any kind of certificate or instructions for research that needed to be provided if this were true?

A. Could you in 1941 ask for any kind of certificate in Berlin?

Q. Mr. Pasic, you know very well there was no violence. You yourself couldn't mention a single person that was victimised. Therefore, it's really taking things too far to compare this with Berlin and the Jews. You were a citizen of Yugoslavia, and no one could enter your apartment without a warrant, and no one could seize your property without giving you a receipt. Do you know that, Mr. Pasic? And why are you making things up like that?

A. Mr. Accused, I am not making up anything. I'm just presenting facts. I was a citizen of your then-state but without any rights, totally disenfranchised.

JUDGE MAY: Let us find this out. You say your flat was entered. How many days did that happen, Mr. Pasic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know exactly how many times. It happened very often.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁴⁰⁶⁷

Q. Very well. Tell me, Mr. Pasic, do you know that in the time when the Muslims, as you say, were discriminated against in Serbia, do you know how many Muslims there were in the army, in the police, in the state security, in the military security, in all the structures? Do you know how many Muslims there were? From the level of general in the army to I don't know which rank or member of the police force or police station commander or -- do you know how many Muslims there were holding those positions when you personally were discriminated against? Do you know anything about that?

A. What I know, Mr. Milosevic, is as I said a moment ago and I claim that the ethnic cleansing started out from Belgrade. You cleansed not only all the organs of non-Serbs but also disobedient Serbs had to be moved away.

Q. Yes. We've already heard that. I really don't know who in Serbia was involved with any activities in the federal organs, but what you're saying is not true.

A. I assert the opposite.

Q. Do you own a single piece of paper, a formal decision regarding your moving to a different post or the search of your apartment or your interviews, information interviews, or any legal act that you claim was engaged in or, rather, against you? Do you have any evidence, any receipt, any document that would corroborate what you are saying?

A. But your system functioned illegally. I don't have any document. I probably have the decision whereby I was demoted, but otherwise I never received any written documents regarding searches or anything else. ²⁴⁰⁶⁸

Q. You even say that your wife suspected that you had a mistress. How come your wife didn't know that every Monday at 10.00 you had to go for this informative interview?

A. I informed my wife about that only once we reached Cairo, because I was clearly told that I mustn't tell anyone ever about any of those things.

Q. But since you had to act in such a conspiratorial manner, which are those secrets that you knew, that deserved such conspiracy and that intrigued those people so much? What are those secrets? Tell us here. What are the secrets that you had the key to? And you were not even allowed to talk about them with your wife.

A. Absolutely. I was fully conscious of everything in those days. I wouldn't let anyone say anything bad about you, especially on the phone because I was aware of the condition I was in.

Q. Please, because you say you were the subject of attention because of certain secrets. Which of those secrets that they were interested in?

A. You can ask them. You know that until you came, I was involved in all the confidential talks at the highest political, economic, military levels, and probably that is what they were interested in.

Q. I see. So they assumed that you were familiar with the content of the talks that you interpreted. So what? Then every interpreter, according to that criterion, is an object of security interest. Maybe these here too, because there are protected witnesses.

A. Yes, but their houses are not being searched and they're not invited for interviews. ²⁴⁰⁶⁹

JUDGE MAY: Now, these sort of generalisations are of no assistance.

Mr. Milosevic, you have until the adjournment with this witness if you require it. The Prosecution had under three-quarters of an hour. You will have had 55 minutes or so which is, in our judgement, more than enough.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much more will I have after the break?

JUDGE MAY: No. You will have until the break.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the break is in five minutes, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, absolutely.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know what to ask then.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since you went for an interview to the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, can you give us the names of the people who interviewed you?

A. I don't know which interview you're referring to.

Q. Any of those interviews that you had in the ministry in Serbia?

A. No one ever gave me a name, and of course I never asked.

Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic. On page 2, paragraph 3, you claim that the leaders of the Arab world in 1992, 1993, usually had contacts with me. Is that what you said?

A. I did.

Q. Tell me, who were those leaders that had dealings with me? ²⁴⁰⁷⁰

A. Of course fortunately I never had access to your office, and I was never invited to such talks, but in the Arab -- you know who supported you among the Arab countries in those days, and who sent you special messages.

Q. I am expecting you to give that answer, because that is what you are claiming and not me.

A. It is common knowledge, it is nothing confidential. You had very close relations with Saddam, et cetera.

Q. I had close relations with Saddam?

A. And cooperation.

Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please, since you are explaining this, who did you hear that from?

A. It was known.

Q. I see. It was known. Oh, that's fine.

A. I heard it from some people that I was friends with, with any comments who were close to you.

Q. And who, for instance?

A. Some people. I'd rather not mention them for their benefit.

Q. Please give us the names. If necessary, we can go into private session, because you are making up everything. It is quite unbelievable.

A. I haven't made up anything.

Q. You have made up everything, Mr. Pasic.

JUDGE MAY: No. This is how we waste time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You claim that in the waiting room of Mr. Cosic, you saw at the ²⁴⁰⁷¹ same time some muddied soldiers, Martic, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs Jovanovic, and I don't know who else. So while you were there. And you heard all kinds of conversations, and then now in this oral examination you explained -- you explained here that Zlatko Jovanovic said to me, "Mr. Slobo," and "Mr. President." You said this, you can find this in the transcript. Tell me just once again, how did he address me?

A. As far as I remember, these were just bits and pieces that I heard. Of course I didn't hear all the orders you gave him.

Q. But how did he address me?

A. "President Slobo."

Q. You say here in your statement that you signed the collocutor was addressed with the words, "Comrade Slobo," "Comrade President, and Slobodan Milosevic was then president of Serbia." Of course, that is not in dispute; in 1992 I was president of Serbia. Do you know that he never addressed me by name, Mr. Jovanovic, and never with the word "comrade." He never used that term, but exclusively with the term "Mr. President." Therefore, when are you telling the truth, Mr. Pasic, here in the statement, or now when you're explaining things, or --

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. Wait a moment. First of all, he's given his evidence. That's what he heard the man say. You dispute that. Did he refer to the -- did Jovanovic refer to the accused as "Comrade President" or anything like that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Jovanovic addressed him with "President." I'm quite sure, and I stand by what I wrote and what I said, that Jovanovic spoke directly to Mr. Milosevic. ²⁴⁰⁷²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That's another question. That's another matter. I'm just denying something that is unbelievable in the form of address, which is also an indication that other things are unbelievable.

A moment ago, Mr. Pasic, you said that he said not to worry and that Buha, Aleksa Buha, who was the Foreign Minister of Republika Srpska would not take the microphone again.

A. Absolutely so.

Q. And that is quite so is it? Now let me tell you what you said in your statement. "Don't worry, Comrade Slobo. Leave that to me. I'll see to it that Radovan Karadzic doesn't get in front of a microphone again." So you can't even remember in this statement of three pages what you wrote, you couldn't remember that now that you are giving your oral testimony. You can't remember whether you wrote down Buha or Karadzic or what.

A. Mr. Jovanovic, talking to you, Mr. Milosevic, mentioned both. I wasn't so close to be able to register exactly everything, but what I did register is what I said.

Q. But in quotation marks, you say, "Don't worry, Comrade Slobo --" he never used the familiar term with me -- "I will see to it that Radovan Karadzic doesn't get in front of a microphone again." So this time you didn't remember Karadzic but you remembered Buha and you construed a completely different story here in the examination in relation to what you wrote.

A. In connection with the microphone, you mentioned both, both ²⁴⁰⁷³ Karadzic and Buha.

Q. Then later on you say that in that conversation, Goran Hadzic and Aleksa Buha were mentioned. "Milosevic was giving instructions." So he goes over there to see Cosic and then, using the telephone of Cosic's office, I give him instructions as to what he should do with Cosic, and he's the federal Minister of Foreign Affairs?

A. The same thing happened in Mr. Cosic's office.

Q. What happened? Perhaps I spoke to him while you were speaking to Gadhafi? Maybe I was speaking to Jovanovic and then he was passing on to Cosic what he thought?

A. In fact, Mr. Cosic complained about that. He was very sad. He was speaking in whispers.

Q. He said that he was a puppet in my hands? You, like me, know the building and we know that the office of the president of the republic faces the Danube. So he couldn't have turned around towards Dedinje and faced Dedinje in his office. So you made even such a stupid detail up which any ordinary -- knows.

JUDGE MAY: Stop the speech. This has been challenged. Which direction he turned may be of no significance at all, but whether the conversation took place or not is of significance. Now, the accused is alleging this conversation didn't take place on the phone, the conversation with Cosic. Is it true or not?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not claiming that Cosic didn't speak to Gadhafi. He probably did, though I don't know anything about that. ²⁴⁰⁷⁴

JUDGE MAY: The conversation with the witness is the one that's under -- now, can you answer that, please, Mr. Pasic, for us?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. The president of federal Yugoslavia at the time, Mr. Dobrica Cosic, was resigned. He was sad when I asked him to save at least a single Bosnian child, in a rather emotional conversation. Then he turned around, and in his large office in which you too worked you can face the Danube or Dedinje; it's very simple. He pointed in the direction of Dedinje and said, "You saw a moment ago that I can't even open my mouth. I can't say anything or do anything. That despot Milosevic is holding everything in his hands, he's the absolute master of everything, so please be my advisor." I'm trying. And he mentioned the names of some other people that he planned to appoint to other posts. "Help me in my office to try as much as I can to become independent of that despot." That is what he said.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you assume that the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia could come to a talk that Cosic is having with Gadhafi without the invitation of President Cosic? Could he have imposed his presence there? Could he enter his office at all?

JUDGE MAY: You ask him. It's no good asking the witness. This is what the witness said happened. So it's no good asking him why Jovanovic was there or not.

In any event, it's well past the time. You've had way over the time. You should know by now in cross-examination if you waste time on peripheral issues and arguing with the witness, it means that your time ²⁴⁰⁷⁵ will be limited. And we're not having a case in which you argue and waste time endlessly with unimportant matters and then you complain that your time is limited. You ought to know by now it will be. Now, we'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I be given just five more minutes, please.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, five minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Just give me brief answers. How long did you live in Belgrade for?

A. Fifteen or 16 years in all.

Q. Sixteen years, right. How many times did you go to Bajrakli mosque?

A. I don't know how many times but a few times I went.

Q. Five times, ten times, a rough idea?

A. I can't tell you. I can't tell you how many times I went to the mosque but a few times.

Q. All right. Sixteen years you lived went to Belgrade and you went a few times. You said you went to Bajrakli dzamija a number of times and you claimed that it was in Knez Mihajlova Street.

A. Well, I don't know what the district is called; I left Belgrade. But I described where Bajrakli dzamija is located. ²⁴⁰⁷⁶

Q. And you said Knez Mihajlova Street by Kalemegdan Park.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I said when you walked down Knez Mihajlova Street, I said before you enter Kalemegdan Park, on the right-hand side is where there's a petrol pump, and in a little street there is where Bajrakli mosque is.

Q. Well, well, Bajrakli mosque is in Jevremova Street. You never went to Bajrakli dzamija, Mr. Pasic, I put it to you.

A. Mr. Milosevic, that's not true.

Q. All right. Tell me this then now, please. As you said that the people you were in the waiting-room with that they were all waiting some soldiers and others, and you say you think you saw Martic there too.

A. I think so. You know what those corridors are like. I didn't say that I was sure it was him but people were carrying papers of some kind. They were there.

Q. All right. So Martic was waiting and these people were waiting to be received by Cosic, and Cosic spent two hours with you after talking to Gadhafi because he has nothing else to do, no better business; right?

A. Well, I don't know how many people were in the large cabinet of yours and in the offices around it and how many people were in the waiting rooms, et cetera.

Q. Now, as you say that you -- that I know the corridors well, you say that it was dark and that you were therefore not able to establish the insignia worn by these men in uniforms. You know full well that those corridors are very, very well lit. They're very broad corridors, very well lit and anybody ever entering the building knows that too. ²⁴⁰⁷⁷

A. Yes, but I didn't have time, nor did I have a chance to look at the details with respect to the insignia. But I'm certain that the insignia were as I described them, the markings.

Q. Well, what were these markings of the brigade, Ilidza Brigade?

A. Well, it was a long time ago and, Mr. Milosevic, you would know that better than me. It was a very nice uniform and on the right hand there was an emblem which said "brigade" in the Cyrillic script, I think of the Ilidza Brigade. I'm almost 90 per cent certain that it was that.

Q. All right, 90 per cent. You said that you weren't able to see exactly because of the dark corridor?

A. Not because of the dark corridor alone. I was conscious of your men standing in every nook and cranny. So I was careful.

Q. You say that when you were in the federal government building, you would see Krajisnik, Karadzic, Plavsic and the others there quite frequently.

A. Especially at the beginning. Those people moved around there freely they were going to and from meetings. Who they went to see, where they went, I didn't know that, of course.

Q. Did you ever see me in that government building, for instance?

A. No, I didn't see you.

Q. And where were these people going? Who were they going to see?

A. I said I didn't know. I said it a moment ago. You should know the answer to that.

Q. Ah, I should know who somebody is going to see in the government building on the other side of the Sava River. All right. Now tell me ²⁴⁰⁷⁸ this. Why didn't you tell the investigators that before or, rather, once you left Belgrade before you reached Cairo, you spent some time in Vienna.

A. I didn't spend some time in Vienna.

Q. All right. Then tell me since when have you been Ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina? When did you become Bosnia-Herzegovina in Cairo?

A. Not Cairo.

Q. All right. Kuwait then?

A. This is my third year in office.

Q. Who appointed you ambassador to Kuwait?

A. I don't know whether this is the subject of our examination here, but I was appointed by the representative of my country.

Q. Well, who signed your credentials?

A. The Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina appointed me ambassador, the Presidency did.

Q. Well, I don't assume the whole Presidency signed it?

JUDGE MAY: No, I don't think there's any relevance in this. You can ask one more question, Mr. Milosevic, and that's it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are you quite sure that it wasn't Alija Izetbegovic who signed your appointment papers?

A. The Presidency of my country harmonises and coordinates the appointment of each and every ambassador.

Q. I mean the signature. Whose signature?

A. I didn't understand you.

Q. Is the signature the signature of Alija Izetbegovic? ^{24079 BLANK PAGE 24080}

A. Yes it is.

Q. Have you read the Islamic declaration of Alija Izetbegovic?

A. Unlike you --

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into all that. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll try and be as brief as possible.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, could you please explain to us or, rather, to Their Honours why, in your statement that you gave to the investigators on the 6th, 7th and 10th of July, 2002, you did not refer to the fact that in the conversation with you, Dobrica Cosic had to whisper and that that was the occasion he spoke about himself as being part of a -- as a puppet. Why didn't you say that?

A. Well, when I compiled the statement last year, I gave the briefest possible passages from that conversation.

Q. Thank you. I would not ask you my next question had you not mention two things here during the examination-in-chief and that is why I think I can ask you to explain some things to the Court in that regard. You mentioned a book, "Far Is the Sun," written by Dobrica Cosic.

A. Yes.

Q. That was his first book; right? If you don't know it doesn't matter, but do you know this: Immediately after that book was published, he published another book called "Deobe," "Divisions," in which he wrote in the most critical point -- critical way of Serb shortcomings and why ²⁴⁰⁸¹ after World War II, this book that dealt with Serb shortcomings was published so -- such a long time afterwards?

A. I haven't read the book. I'm just telling you about the book I did read and the book we mentioned, Mr. Cosic and I, in our conversation.

Q. Now, do you know that his books later on, some other books written by him later on disclosed the anomalies of the communist system, do you know about that, unmasked them?

A. As Mr. Cosic and I had a long conversation, he said, when he asked me to be his advisor, he said this: "My books -- I have a lot of money and my books are selling like hotcakes."

Q. I didn't ask you about that. I was asking you did you need moral courage to publish books of that sort?

A. In his books there is a lot of Serb nationalism, that's true.

Q. And is it true that he was one of the first people to resist and stand up to the system that ruled under the reign of Josip Broz Tito? Do you know about that?

A. I know that he was an opposition man, in the opposition, and I know also that he said that Mr. Milosevic was a despot, as I said a moment ago.

Q. That's not what I asked you. I asked you whether he was one of the first people to pluck up the courage to resist what was done during Josip Broz Tito's time.

A. Yes. I don't know how far that is the subject of this deliberation.

Q. Well, I'll tell you why in just a minute. Is it true that he was ²⁴⁰⁸² thought to influence others, for example, the memorandum? It was said that he was influential in the memorandum affair of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences.

A. You know the kind of man that Mr. Dobrica Cosic is, that he is one of the people that advocated Serb nationalism.

Q. All I want to ask you is this: Somebody who in 1992 and 1993, in the most difficult times for the country and accepted to be president, did that take courage?

A. He was very sad that he was a puppet in the position he occupied.

Q. That's not what I asked you. What I asked you is this --

JUDGE MAY: I don't think the witness can comment on this, and it's purely a comment. All he can say is what the conversation was. That's his evidence.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, I will get through my questions very quickly and I wouldn't have asked him about the book "Far is the Sun" or about "Deobe," "Divisions," had he not brought the subject of "Far is the Sun" up in the first place.

Q. Witness, this is what you said quite literally during the examination-in-chief verbatim: Dobrica Cosic asked you to tell him about Muslim tolerance; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, tell me this: Does anybody know the holy scriptures better and the Koran and the history of churches, him being a writer? He's an author. Does anybody know about that better than Dobrica Cosic? And did he need to ask you to tell him about Muslim tolerance as if he didn't know ²⁴⁰⁸³ about it himself?

A. As far as Islamic tolerance, I'm quite sure that I was a better expert on the subject than him.

Q. All right. Thank you, I've completed that topic. Now let's move on to the next one.

You spoke about the fact that tanks crossed the Sava River bridge; right, off in some direction?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the Sava bridge and all the other bridges, are they located in the centre of Belgrade? On one embankment is the Old Belgrade and on the other side, on the other bank, is New Belgrade. So how do you know where the tanks were going?

A. Well, you know there was a lot of traffic and traffic jams and you could hear voices and noise all over the place, and it was quite obvious that the convoys were moving in the direction I stated. I didn't say I knew for sure. I saw what I saw on the bridges; that's what I said.

Q. All right. And another two questions: When you spoke about this professor that spoke about the genocidal Koran, could you give me the name and surname of that man? Is it possible you don't remember?

A. That was one of the most genocidal programmes that were repeated night after night on Belgrade television. And a moment ago Mr. Milosevic asked me the Bible, Koran is always against terror, all forms of terror and violence and sexual abuse and violence against women.

Q. Well, how come you don't remember the name and surname of the professor if you remembered all the rest of it? ²⁴⁰⁸⁴

A. After that programme, a peace-loving neighbour of mine, a quiet man, attacked my door and said, "I had no idea the kind of bestial people live next door to me," he was so influenced by this programme.

Q. Now my next question: Were you a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

A. As far as that question, you know that everybody working in federal organs were always members. It was automatic. But I never dealt with communism ideology or anything.

Q. To the last day, that is 1990, were you a member of the League of Communists until it existed?

A. It was just automatic.

Q. Now tell me this: Did you attend services in the mosque while you were a member of the League of Communists? You did?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: Just two points, Your Honour. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Mr. Pasic, Mr. Milosevic asked you about the composition, the changing composition of the Yugoslav army. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Jovanovic during which he expressed or relayed his observations about the changing composition of the Yugoslav army?

A. I only remember one. I knew Mr. Jovanovic. I only remember one encounter, one meeting, a chance meeting at the beginning, in fact, at the beginning of 1992. He was excited and he said that the time had come to put in the injustice done to the Serbs right and that we were entering a ²⁴⁰⁸⁵ new era where all Serbs had their tasks to round off and create their own state.

Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic put several parts of your statement to you, and in particular he -- your assertion in your statement that you overheard Jovanovic refer to the other person on the phone as "Comrade Slobo." Did you, after coming to Holland, sit down and dictate corrections or -- that you saw in your statement? Did you attempt to correct what you perceived as mistakes in your statement?

A. As you know, Your Honours, my statement is based on my recollections, and I am certain of the contents that I heard during that telephone conversation between Mr. Jovanovic and Mr. Milosevic. Those -- that then was my -- was oral conveyance of orders. And then Jovanovic rang someone else up and conveyed that to them. I don't know who. But I just said what I recalled and heard in that room, sitting in a corner of it, on that occasion.

Q. Sir, what I'm asking you is last week did you sit down and dictate to a member of the Office of the Prosecutor corrections to your statement, where, after reviewing your statement, you felt that some parts of the statement were incorrect? Did you do that in the last week?

A. Yes, I did. As far as I recall, usually they would refer to him as "President Slobo."

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --

MR. GROOME: -- I'm going to ask that it be marked for identification at this time. ²⁴⁰⁸⁶

Q. My question to you is the document that you now have before you, is that a memo containing the portions of your statement which you felt were incorrect which you corrected by dictating corrections to a member of the OTP staff?

A. Yes. I read everything carefully, of course, and in the way Mr. Jovanovic addressed the person, as far as I can remember, he would have addressed him with "President" but also with "Comrade" too. He used the word "Drug" as well. And I'd like to say once again or, rather, in describing the room, let me say I wasn't able to take note of everything but I'm sure he was addressing Mr. Milosevic.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions

JUDGE MAY: Can you just clarify that for us? You say now that Jovanovic used both expressions, "President" and "Comrade"; is that right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Ambassador Pasic, thank you for giving your evidence. It's now concluded. You're free to leave.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. That last document, Mr. Groome, you asked for it to be marked for identification. In fact, we haven't even exhibited the statement so I don't think there's much point exhibiting the corrections --

MR. GROOME: I'll withdraw it, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: -- particularly in light of the last answer, which hasn't made matters much clearer. ²⁴⁰⁸⁷

MR. GROOME: I will withdraw it and leave the oral testimony as it stands.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, leave it as the evidence is. Thank you. Now, we're being handed some binders which we'll keep for the moment. What we'll deal with is, first of all, the application, as I understand it, that you want to make, Mr. Groome, in relation to the motions for admission of 92 bis witnesses. To explain, this concerns not those immediately upcoming witnesses, which we will come to in a moment, this concerns a motion which I think you filed on the 18th of June, and it relates to 15 witnesses who have made statements in relation to events in Bijeljina, Bratunac, and Zvornik, and I understand that you have a further application in relation to them. We will be considering that motion fairly shortly.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I know that the Chamber is burdened with a great deal of work. Because of some scheduling difficulties, it appears that there may be some openings before the end of the summer break, so the Prosecution's request to the Chamber was, if it was possible, to expedite a ruling on nine of those witnesses, and if that was possible, then we could then schedule them and have them in the event that they're needed before the summer break.

JUDGE MAY: And can you tell us those witnesses?

MR. GROOME: The witnesses, Your Honour, I'm uncertain, or in exercise of caution, if possible, I would like to refer to all of them by their number so that I don't inadvertently violate any protective orders, but they are: B-1488, B-1516, B-1097, B-1010, B-1502, B-1524, B-1704, ²⁴⁰⁸⁸ B-1460, and B-1750.

JUDGE MAY: And you would wish, if possible, to call those, if necessary, before the recess.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: So what weeks would you have in mind?

MR. GROOME: I believe it's the end of the second to last week in August, and then the final week in August. There have been some problems with visas and other logistical problems with some of the witnesses. Basically to have a reserve of witnesses available so that we do not lose any time.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider those next. It may be we'll have an oral hearing next week on that.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if it's of assistance to the Court, the Prosecution will be conceding that cross-examination is appropriate in some of them based on the ruling -- the recent ruling we have from the Chamber. If that facilitates or expedites the Chamber's consideration of that, the Prosecution -- would you like me to deal with that now?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we might as well deal with it now.

MR. GROOME: With respect to the following witnesses -- out of that nine, Your Honour, the Prosecution concede that there is a substantive reference to the JNA and, based upon the Chamber's ruling, cross-examination would be appropriate. And those witnesses would be 1480 --

JUDGE MAY: Please slow down a moment, I'm going to make a note.

MR. GROOME: Sorry. 1488, 1097, 1502, 1704, and 1460. The other ²⁴⁰⁸⁹ remaining witnesses the Prosecution will be asking the Chamber to consider whether cross-examination is necessary and I can reserve my remarks to next week, if the Court wishes.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you for that assistance. Five witnesses; is that right? Yes.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I believe I misspoke when I said six; there's five witnesses and four that we believe there's an argument to be made for cross-examination not being required.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll move from there to the next witnesses you propose to call. Now, these are all transcript witnesses, I see.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. These are all the witnesses testifying about the municipality of Foca.

JUDGE MAY: It's all Foca. We've been handed a binder. No doubt it was that that Mr. Milosevic was complaining about earlier. Perhaps you would introduce it to us so we can find out what it is.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the statements and transcripts of most of these witnesses were disclosed over a year ago, on the 1st of June, 2002. The entire package that we will now be seeking to introduce was submitted on the first -- on the 10th of January of this year in the form of three binders of exhibits plus the transcripts. To assist the Chamber, and particularly to assist the accused, we are redisclosing the package as it pertains to each witness just before the witness in the event that it is of assistance to the accused, which I believe, during the Kosovo portion of the case, it was indicated to the Prosecution that that was of ²⁴⁰⁹⁰ assistance. So it is not a matter of newly delivered material that the accused has not had an opportunity to review but simply of us attempting to facilitate his handling of a large amount of material.

JUDGE MAY: Well, what I seem to have here is, looking at the binder, it's the transcript of D-1536, who is in fact -- is that right? He's in fact unprotected; am I right about that?

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Avdic. So he's the next witness. So we find his transcript at tab 1. Are there then the various exhibits which he produced; is that right?

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Following tabs.

MR. GROOME: So the following tabs are the exhibits which we would seek to introduce. If I could also just note, many of these witnesses were subject to some various forms of protection in closed session so we've put a surrogate sheet to indicate that a redacted copy of this testimony is available from the ICTY website rather than burden the Court again with a separate redacted copy of the transcript. So that's been done.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. So we've got -- but so that I can make sure that we've got -- so these aren't necessarily exhibits produced by this particular witness but by the generality of Foca witnesses.

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. The package that you have before you are the exhibits produced by this particular witness.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. ^{24091 BLANK PAGE 24092}

MR. GROOME: With the exception we are not seeking to reintroduce videos that were introduced in the original trial. We do not feel it's necessary. But they are indicated at tabs 14 and 15.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. GROOME: And finally, Your Honour, with respect to this bundle of exhibits, there were statements of this witness introduced on -- during cross-examination. The Prosecution takes no strong position on whether they should be put before this Chamber. We thought, in fairness, that we would include them. I do note that Mr. Kay did raise objection to them and we'll simply be guided by the Chamber's wish in that regard.

JUDGE MAY: These are prior statements of the witness?

MR. GROOME: Yes. Prior statements were introduced during the cross-examination to impeach, I imagine, the credibility of the witness. Mr. Kay was objecting to the introduction of that prior statement in these proceedings.

JUDGE MAY: I would have thought the whole passage should go in, including those statements if they were used to impeach the witness. That would seem to be right. But the point going back to what Mr. Milosevic was complaining of earlier, the point is that these are merely the documents which have been disclosed earlier, indeed, when we considered the application. They had been disclosed. Is that right.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour. These --

JUDGE MAY: But merely rearranged in a more convenient form.

MR. GROOME: These were disclosed over six months ago.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. ²⁴⁰⁹³

MR. GROOME: And disclosed over a year ago in a different format.

JUDGE MAY: Now, in relation to this witness, you're proposing to call him, summarise the transcript, is that right, and then leave him for cross-examination?

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, next to me is Ms. Melissa Pack who is the person -- the lawyer, who has assembled all the Foca witnesses. With the Court's permission, I'd ask that she be allowed to assist us and take this witness and some of the other Foca witnesses that will be --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, certainly. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wouldn't like to repeat anything that Mr. Kay has conveyed. They are our common commission -- positions regarding 92 bis witnesses and everything else, but a technical problem has arisen. A few days ago unfortunately, an associate from the OTP, Ms. Stefanie, took all the statements from the Foca witnesses because they were incomplete, and as an amicus, I did not have in my possession the statement of the witness that we are going to hear now. That will not be an obstacle; I read it earlier on. But this does cause difficulties, because I couldn't devote my attention to the statements of these witnesses in the coming period over the past two days because I didn't have the documents with me, and this is a cause of difficulty.

JUDGE MAY: If there are any matters on which you need to ²⁴⁰⁹⁴ cross-examine, I'm sure that they can emerge during the cross-examination by the accused.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I sit down if I can make one more comment about this group of witnesses. The Prosecution is proposing that after the witnesses who for cross-examination is required, after they complete their testimony that we then tender the transcripts of those witnesses for which cross-examination was not required. In that way, the Chamber would have in consecutive exhibit numbers, all of the evidence related to Foca.

JUDGE MAY: Very we will. We need an exhibit number for this particular binder. Yes. The next Prosecution Exhibit number, please.

THE REGISTRAR: P490.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll call the witness.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Please take a seat.

WITNESS: SAFET AVDIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Pack. Examined by Ms. Pack:

Q. Witness, would you give the Court, please, your name?

A. Safet Avdic.

Q. Mr. Avdic, have you testified on two previous occasions in this ²⁴⁰⁹⁵ Tribunal?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you testify on the first occasion in the case of Kunarac on the 22nd and 23rd of March of 2000?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. On the second occasion in the case of Krnojelac on the 1st and 2nd of November, 2000?

A. Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, of the transcripts and exhibits in those proceedings can be admitted as the -- admitted in evidence save for the tabs that have been identified by Mr. Groome as 14 and 15.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. They are admitted.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I propose to read out a summary of the evidence in those two proceedings.

In Prosecutor and Kunarac, the witness testified about the SDA and SDS founding rallies in Foca and the ethnic composition of different neighbourhoods in Foca. He said that when the war began, looking from his apartment he could see military activity on the hill Dub and men wearing former Yugoslav army-type closing. He saw a machine-gun pointed towards Foca.

Shortly before the war, the witness saw people walking around Foca with weapons. He heard that Serbs were organising militarily. He did not hear the same of Muslims. Serb women and children were leaving Foca on buses before the attack.

On the 8th of April, the shooting started. Later on, the witness ²⁴⁰⁹⁶ saw soldiers on the street in front of his house wearing uniforms of the old Yugoslav army, all carrying weapons. Some of the soldiers were locals from Foca. Some came from elsewhere. He learned later these were paramilitary units from Serbia, the White Eagles, and Arkan's people. Some also came from Montenegro. Local soldiers were exclusively Serb. Foca was taken by the Serbs around mid-April.

From his apartment, the witness says he saw shelling and troop movement in vehicles in the direction of the Gorazde. The Serb army was using these vehicles. He saw aeroplanes moving in the direction of Gorazde. He saw parts of Foca burning. All of the houses that he saw burning were owned by Muslims. In May one or two houses would be burning per day.

He visited Donje Polje, a Muslim neighbourhood and saw the mosque there burning. He says all the mosques in Foca were destroyed during the war. On the 19th of May, the witness was addressed. He was taken to KP Dom. He would stay there for almost 900 days. The men who were confined with him were all Muslims. He describes the living conditions at KP Dom. He says that some of the prisoners were taken out for forced labour. He describes groups of men being taken out to the office in the administrative building. He says cries and blows could be heard and sometimes shots. Between June and July, five or six groups were taken out. All the men are still missing.

The witness gave evidence that his group of about 15 people were always concealed from the International Red Cross. It was only towards the end of December 1993 that the Red Cross were allowed to visit them. The ²⁴⁰⁹⁷ first time the Red Cross visited was in June or July 1992, and they returned on several occasions before the witness and his group were registered.

The witness was finally released from KP Dom on the 5th of October, 1994, and exchanged on the 6th of October, 1994. He did not have contact with his family from 1992 until the beginning of January 1995. And then to summarise in the Krnojelac proceedings, the witness described again the living conditions in KP Dom. He describes the overcrowded bedrooms with mattresses only, solitary confinement cells without heating, that visitors were not allowed. He describes the treatment of Serb regular prisoners in contrast to the Muslim detainees. He testifies that some detainees were forced to work even if sick. The witness saw detainees being taken away on several occasions according to lists drawn up in advance. He heard cries and shots. On one occasion he saw the lights of a vehicle moving over the Drina and later the sound of something like sandbags hitting the water. Some detainees who worked in the auto repair shop told the witness they saw traces of blood inside this vehicle after the events described. The witness never saw the detainees who were taken out in this way again. Detainees were taken out and told they would be exchanged but were never seen again. Other detainees were taken out and told they were to pick plums but were never seen again.

The witness had only limited access to medical treatment. While in KP Dom he suffered from heart problems due to lack of medication and other physical conditions associated with the cold and lack of hygiene. ²⁴⁰⁹⁸ In the two or three months at the very beginning, he lost 40 kilos. He describes being scared to death in KP Dom. He is still suffering severely from the psychological effects of his detention. And that is a summary of the evidence in the earlier proceedings. I don't propose to ask the witness any questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreters did not hear the beginning. I'm sorry.

JUDGE MAY: Would you start again. The interpreters did not hear the beginning.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Avdic, on page 2, paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that the Serbian Democratic Party, in the summer of 1990, held a public rally at the stadium in Foca; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it, however, true that the first public political rally held in Foca was the one held by the SDA, organised by the SDA?

A. Yes.

Q. And this was quite some time before this rally of the Serbian Democratic Party, wasn't it?

A. Two months before.

Q. I see. So first there was the SDA rally. Is it true that the Foca municipality is the largest municipality in terms of territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. Yes. ²⁴⁰⁹⁹

Q. Is it also true that in the territory of Foca municipality there were less than 50.000 inhabitants living there?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also true that the ethnic composition was such that there were 53 per cent Muslims and 47 per cent Serbs?

A. Fifty-two per cent.

Q. I see, 52 per cent Muslims and 48 per cent Serbs. And tell me, please, is it true that at the rally of the Serbian Democratic Party that you referred to, there were about 10.000 people, mostly local Serbs? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also correct that at the rally of the Party of Democratic Action, which was held before that on the Drina riverbank, there were about 100.000 men present?

A. It is not true.

Q. Well, how many people were present?

A. Maybe some 20.000.

Q. I see, 20.000. And there was a total of 20.000 Muslims living in Foca?

A. 52 per cent, which makes it 25.000.

Q. Fine. Very well. But is it also correct that at the SDA rally in Foca - this is according to information that I have, - there were 100.000 people present, but is it true there were tens of thousands of Muslims from Serbia, from Sandzak led by Sulejman Ugljanin?

A. I don't know. I number is certainly not that high. Now, whether ²⁴¹⁰⁰ there were people from Serbia, from Sandzak, I don't know.

Q. Is it true that the rally was addressed by Alija Izetbegovic, among others?

A. Yes.

Q. You were present at that rally?

A. For a brief period at the beginning.

Q. But it lasted quite -- for some time. How long were you there?

A. For some 20 minutes.

Q. I don't have the speech of Alija Izetbegovic here. I will have it in due course. But since attention has been drawn to tab 15, we have established, therefore, that according to my information, there were ten times more Muslims attending the SDA rally than the Serbs attending the other rally. You say there were twice as many, but --

JUDGE MAY: We're not going it over again. It's disputed. We've got his evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have his evidence. He says 20 or so thousand.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, look at this tab 15, please.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Semso Tankosic.

JUDGE MAY: Make sure the witness has it, please.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, there isn't a transcript of it in B/C/S. I think it was a video that was admitted by the Defence in that case and ²⁴¹⁰¹ obviously in B/C/S and a transcript was only provided in English. So I don't think much purpose will be served by showing it to the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's get it interpreted. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness will hear it. It's very brief, because this is an abstract.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. "Semso Tankosic," in brackets, it says, "President of the Executive Board of the SDA for Zagreb." He's a Muslim, isn't he, and President of the Executive Board for the SDA in Zagreb; is that right?

A. I don't know that.

Q. But listen to his speech. He says: [In English] "Are we Serbs? (Crowd: No.) Are we maybe Croats? (Crowd: No.) Are we Muslims? (Crowd: Yes.)" [Interpretation] Then he says: "Dear gentlemen, honoured reporters. Dear friends..." [In English] "Serbs and Croats. Here you had the opportunity to hear how on behalf of 3 million Muslims the people gathered here answered who we are and what we are. We are Muslims and don't you ever forget it. (Cheering crowd) This is also an answer to all those that, for whichever petty political reasons they might have, declare themselves Serbs or Croats though they belong to the Islamic religion, and that say that SDA doesn't suit them because it is an excessively green party. I tell them from this spot: 'It should be green. It's ours.'" [Interpretation] That is what we find in this tab that was provided to me. As for Izetbegovic's speech, I assume you heard it.

A. A part of it. Not all of it. I said that I was there for some 20 ²⁴¹⁰² minutes. While the rally was opened, then maybe up to ten minutes I listened to Izetbegovic, and then I left. I was quite to the side, close to the road.

Q. Was this, in your opinion, a nationalist rally?

A. No, because there were Serbs present at that rally.

Q. Very well, then. But you heard the speech. Isn't this a nationalist speech?

A. I hear this for the first time.

Q. Very well, Mr. Avdic. Since you say there were Serbs at the rally, is it true that there wasn't a single Serb flag but only Muslim flags and one or two Croat?

A. I didn't pay any attention.

Q. Why, then, if we have established when your rally was held and that after that was a rally of the Serbian Democratic Party was held in Foca at which, in your assessment too, there were far fewer people, do you consider this to mark the beginning of hostilities in the territory of Foca?

A. First of all, that -- first of all, that was not my rally. I am not a member of the SDA. I respected all faiths and all ethnicities, and I socialised with everyone.

Q. Very well, Mr. Avdic. This is certainly praiseworthy, but that is not my question. Why do you consider the rally of the Serbian Democratic Party in Foca, which took place later and was much smaller in size, to mark the beginning of hostilities in Foca?

A. That is not stated in my statement. ²⁴¹⁰³

Q. So it was not the beginning of hostilities.

A. That is not stated in my statement.

JUDGE MAY: The witness says that he didn't say it, so you can't attribute it to him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I'm moving on. I'm not arguing with the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let us move on then, Mr. Avdic, to the next point. On page 2, paragraph 5, you say that you personally did not see but you heard that local Serbs, several months prior to the beginning of the war, had started to organise military units and that they had started military training at Vucevo near Tjentiste; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it, however, true that the first organised arming of ethnic groups in the territory of Foca first took place among Muslims?

A. No. On the basis of my knowledge, no.

Q. Before I quote from your statement, let me read to you from tab 16. I think it's from tab 16. This is a newspaper article. Cengic is making a statement for the newspaper Ljiljan. You've heard of that. 18th to the 25th of May, 1998 is that issue of the Liljan or The Lily. So I'll read to you only one paragraph on page 3 of this very lengthy interview.

JUDGE MAY: The witness can have this document. We've probably got the original. Yes. Which page, page 3?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no pagination, but it's the third piece of paper in this tab. There's a photograph first, then ²⁴¹⁰⁴ interview of the week, and the third page with the photograph again but of a smaller size of the person interviewed. The far right column.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is linked to what I was saying, that they started arming first. Here is what Cengic says: "Foca was the centre for arming. From there, several thousand barrels were distributed across Bosnia and Herzegovina from Ljubinje to Srebrenica. Even Naser Oric would come for the weapons." Cengic says: "I don't know whether it was the centre, but we did assist various municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina as far as we could. And when those weapons reached Foca, no one could know about it and still less receive it in his home. Sajo --" and his name is Senad Sahinpasic, Sajo. You probably know that man, don't you? You've heard of Senad Sahinpasic, Sajo?

A. Yes.

Q. "Sajo complained to me and I said to him, Drive it to my home, and that is what we did. So the problem was not in the weapons but in the consciousness of people and in the organisation." End of quote. So that a large part of Bosnia-Herzegovina was supplied with weapons from there means that not only were the people of Foca being armed but they supplied other municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina with weapons. And then he goes on to say --

JUDGE MAY: Wait. Wait. The witness must have the chance to deal with this. You're putting it to him.

Now, Mr. Avdic -- wait --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not claiming, I'm just reading. ^{24105 BLANK PAGE 24106}

JUDGE MAY: Yes, I know. It's what's in the interview, but he should have a chance of dealing with it.

Can you assist us with what's in the interview and what the accused has read out, Mr. Avdic, whether as far as you know that was the case, there was arming from Foca? Do you know anything about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about it, nor do I believe it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Further on at the bottom of the paragraph it says: "There was criticism at your expense and Saja's that you gained wealth, but I won't dwell on that. I don't want to waste time on that." And then in the last line on that page it says: "It should be known that in those times, it was risky, to drive weapons, to stockpile it, to distribute it and the like. One could be arrested any time. Saja with the assistance of some men from Focatrans," which is a company, isn't it, a transport company there in Foca, isn't it, Mr. Avdic?

A. Focatrans, yes.

Q. "He would take people, procure weapons, drive them in encountering thousands of problems," et cetera, et cetera. Therefore, isn't it beyond doubt that there was a large concentration of weapons among the Muslims in Foca in a period that preceded the conflicts that you're testifying about?

A. That's not true. As far as I know, it's not true.

Q. All right. ²⁴¹⁰⁷

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know, Mr. May, that famous sentence, "There are many things in this world that your mind does not even dream of, Horatio." You know that because it's Shakespeare, I'm sure.

JUDGE MAY: We're certainly not going into Shakespeare. You're cross-examining this witness, rather than addressing a literary class. Just examine the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he didn't know about it. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But on page 2, paragraph 5, you say that you saw with the Muslims some kinds of rifles. "I saw some rifles with the Muslims, and some Muslims who had money bought weapons." Is that what you said in your statement?

A. Yes, hunting rifles, hunting knives. And later on, some people did purchase something. But exclusively hunting rifles, hunting knives and hunting equipment, which later on in the houses in which I lived in the centre and where I lived, the militia, the military police would come in to search the flats and confiscate the weapons without issuing any receipts testifying to the confiscation of these weapons and their ultimate return.

Q. All right, Mr. Avdic, not to waste time. Do you only claim you saw hunting rifles, nothing else, no other rifles, just hunting rifles? Is that you're saying?

A. That the Muslims had. ²⁴¹⁰⁸

Q. All right. Fine. Now, as you said -- you went on to say they purchased rifles. Who did they purchase rifles from?

A. I don't know.

Q. And do you happen to know if the Muslims had in their possession some other kinds of weapons other than the rifles you just mentioned?

A. I heard about that. I heard that they had something like mortars for the expulsion of shells, small shells. And in my previous statement, I said that that was in the area of Sukovac.

Q. All right. Sukovac is a hill near Foca; right?

A. An elevation.

Q. Yes, but in the town itself.

A. On the left bank of the Drina River.

Q. Yes. I understand. Now, on page 2, paragraph 6 of your own statement, you say that the Muslims had several cannons; is that right, guns?

A. That's what I said but I didn't see what these weapons were, but from what a Serb was saying, a Serb from Foca, that the shells that were shelling the area from those -- that weaponry did not explode. And on the basis of the tale told by him, I used the word cannon or gun, but I didn't actually see those weapons.

Q. So the shells that were expulsed from those weapons, they didn't know how to remove the protective shell, to ignite the shell and that's why they didn't explode. They weren't handled properly. I assume you know that?

A. Oh, well, now you see how well they were trained. ²⁴¹⁰⁹

Q. Now, tell me how many cannons you referred to. You say several guns or cannons?

A. I don't know whether it was one or two. I really can't say.

Q. Well, I wouldn't say one or two.

A. I didn't actually see them.

Q. Do you know where they got those cannons from?

A. No, I don't.

Q. All right. Fine, Mr. Avdic. Now, does it emerge from all this, from the quotation by Cengic and from what you're saying about the cannons, I assume cannons are not hunting cannons. If you say rifles are hunting rifles, I don't assume that cannons can be hunting cannons. Is it therefore clear that the Muslims of the Foca municipality, far before the Serbs, began to organise themselves militarily?

A. No.

Q. So that's not right either? All right.

A. As far as I know. To the best of my knowledge, it isn't.

Q. All right i. I'm sure you knew that the Muharem Cengic said in the newspaper called Liljan said that the Muslims of the Foca region, even before the conflict broke out, had organised themselves into armed military formations -- into combat military formations.

A. No, I didn't re -- read about that.

Q. All right. Do you at least know this: That far before the conflict broke out the SDA party, the SDA party organised armed night patrols which monitored the movements of the local Serbs? You must have noticed that as an inhabitant of Foca yourself. ²⁴¹¹⁰

A. From Cajnici, the arrival of individual Serbs, leaders, this was attended. They were armed with short machine-guns, those short machine-guns and they would come in and pass by through the town along with some of the local Foca Serbs.

Q. Just a moment, please. Did you yourself see armed patrols of the SDA party, the Muslim party? That's what I'm asking you about.

A. No, I didn't.

Q. You didn't see them. I mentioned to you a moment ago the man that was nicknamed Saja and his name was actually Senad Sahinpasic. You know him, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true that this man before the war sold and resold various goods and later on he was commander of the local Muslim units, wasn't he? That's right, isn't it? Was he later on the commander of local Muslim units?

A. I don't know. But if I may just add something to the previous question, the sale of goods. He had a registered company for the trading with fruit.

Q. All right. And do you claim that he wasn't commander of the Muslim units?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know that either?

A. No, I don't. And let me state again I was not a member of the SDA party or any kind of activist in the SDA or of the SDA.

Q. Well, I assume you weren't an activist in the SDS either. And ²⁴¹¹¹ you're testifying against the Serbs. And you know nothing about the SDA. Is that right, Mr. Avdic?

A. Well, I don't know the structure of the leadership cadres, armaments and things like that. I don't know about that.

Q. Do you remember, Mr. Avdic, that the first barricade with armed personnel in Foca was organised precisely on the Muslim side and that by this man Saja, nicknamed Saja, you don't know about that?

A. No, I don't.

Q. And do you happen to remember what happened in the central part of Foca, in the centre of town called Donje Polje in the direction of the KP Dom?

A. Well, it was mostly inhabited by Muslims.

Q. Well, was there a barricade erected there?

A. I don't know. I didn't move around town at that time. I lived in the centre of town.

Q. Well, that's in the centre of town. Donje Polje, isn't that the centre of town?

A. No. The centre is the hotel and the region around Drina and Ceotina where the Maglic enterprise is located, that's the centre of town.

Q. And how far is Donje Polje from that?

A. Maybe 200 metres, 300 metres.

Q. So 200 to 300 metres from where you were and you don't know there was a barricade there?

A. No.

Q. So you didn't move in that radius of 200 metres? ²⁴¹¹²

A. Not at the time you're asking me about, no.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, you say on page 2, paragraph 6, that the Serbs started the attack on Foca on the 7th of April, 1992; isn't that right, Mr. Avdic?

A. Yes.

Q. In view of the fact that you yourself lived in Foca at the time and you're testifying about that, and not for the first time, if I understand it correctly, Mr. Avdic; is that right? You're a frequent witness for the opposing side over there.

A. I have already state that had to the Tribunal, to Their Honours.

Q. Then I'm sure you know why the attack on Foca took place at all and the conflict in Foca took place at all, how it came about. Yes or no?

A. Well, I don't know why the attack was launched.

Q. All right. Now, is it true and correct, I assume that was common knowledge at the time and I assume you knew about it too, that the Serbs broke into a coded Muslim message that had been sent which this man Senad Sahinpasic, "Saja," sent to the Muslim forces under arms. And that message was that the Muslims should start the attack and that message was intercepted. You know nothing about that?

A. No.

Q. Nothing about it?

A. No.

Q. On page 2, paragraph 6, you also say that the attacks were launched by Serb soldiers from Pljevlje and Niksic together with the local Serbs, members of the White Eagles and the Serb guards; is that right? ²⁴¹¹³

A. Yes.

Q. Now tell me this, please: In those conflicts and clashes in Foca, did a single member of the JNA take part, a single unit of the JNA? Did it take part?

A. The army uniforms were those of the Yugoslav army. It was army uniforms of the Yugoslav army and camouflage military uniforms too.

Q. Mr. Avdic, I'm not asking you the kinds of uniforms. I'm asking you whether it is true that there were paramilitary units who on the basis of self-organisation were included in the struggles around Foca, and I'm asking you quite precisely: Is it true that there was not a single JNA soldier who was in Foca?

A. I saw people wearing military uniforms of the JNA. That's what I saw. And I also saw people wearing camouflage uniforms.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, these White Eagles and the Serb guards, the Serb guard, the SPO, the ones you mention, are they also paramilitary units?

A. From what people tell me. But there was a great deal of coordination between those units and the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. All right. Tell me this: Did you bear in mind at all the fact that these units also wore uniforms that were the same as military uniforms? Isn't that right?

A. Your Honours, I'm not quite sure I understand the question.

Q. The Serb guard, the SPO and the White Eagles, do they belong to the JNA? Let me put it that way. Are they JNA units?

A. Well, I don't know whether they belonged to the JNA. ²⁴¹¹⁴

JUDGE MAY: The witness can only deal with what he saw himself. Did you see any -- you may be able to answer this, but did you see any coordination, that's what is put, between any VJ or JNA units and the paramilitaries? It may be, as I say, you can't answer that, but if you did see, perhaps you could tell us.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to say this. That coordination, I linked it up -- that was the conclusion I drew as to coordination. The attack on Jelec was first done by planes. Jelec was bombed from the air. After that it was heavy artillery that went in to shell it from the Karlovac axis, direction, and after all that there was an infantry attack on Jelec. And from that, I deduced, I draw the conclusion that there was coordination of this entire operation between the JNA and the paramilitary units.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But in Foca, you actually only saw paramilitary units. Isn't that right, Mr. Avdic?

A. And people wearing the uniform of the Yugoslav Army with weapons, rifles, and machine-guns.

Q. The people that you denote as paramilitary units, did they also wear the clothing, the uniforms of that Yugoslav People's Army, as you refer to it?

A. I said camouflage uniforms. I saw people wearing clothing of the Yugoslav People's Army and camouflage uniforms.

Q. And the non-camouflage ones, those were the ones used by the Territorial Defence. Isn't that right, Mr. Avdic? ²⁴¹¹⁵

A. I don't understand what you mean.

Q. Well, the general olive-green uniforms, that was the standard type of uniform that the Territorial Defence had, and each of the Territorial Defence people had a uniform like that at home.

A. That equipment had been withdrawn a year previously from the warehouses and depots of the TO, and it had been -- it was taken off in an unknown direction.

Q. All right. Let's not go into that question here and now with you. I don't think you'll be able to give us much assistance in that respect. Let me just ask you this: Is it true that for a full 20 or more years from Foca the JNA garrison was moved out, there was no garrison left in Foca, and that the nearest JNA unit was at a distance of 12 kilometres from Foca, in a village called Filipovici? Isn't that right? As a man from Foca yourself, you must know that.

A. I don't know when it was dislodged, but was disbanded from there and there is the village of Filipovici, and it was engaged militarily. Now, what the organisation of the units was there, I don't know.

Q. All right. So the nearest one was 12 kilometres away in the village of Filipovici. And is it true that this was a unit which was exclusively there because there was just a fuel depot there and the quartermaster supplies and no weapons at all?

A. I don't know what they had down there.

Q. And that there were only 12 soldiers that manned the area and kept guard over this fuel depot and the quartermaster equipment, such as blankets, rucksacks, and the rest of it, just 12 soldiers? ²⁴¹¹⁶

A. I don't know. I really can't say.

Q. And do you know that at the head of the facility, that is to say the sole military facility 12 kilometres away from Foca and Filipovici, was a Muslim who was a major by rank and his name was Muharem Kurtovic?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. You don't know about that either? Well, do you know, for example, that these local forces in Foca, the paramilitaries too, and even these 12 soldiers, members of the JNA that provided security for the depot as well as Major Kurtovic, that they were disarmed and transported the next day with only their sidearms to Montenegro and sent off to Montenegro the very next day. Do you know about that?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that Major Kurtovic himself, during these conflicts, offered shelter within that JNA depot to numerous men, women, and children who took refuge from the attack, took shelter there?

A. Possibly, but I can't say for sure; I don't know.

Q. All right. Now, do you have any knowledge about the fact that any of these JNA soldiers took part in the battle for Foca at all? Was a single bullet shot?

A. No. I don't know of a single soldier that did that.

Q. All right. Is it true that the fighting went on for eight days, up until the 16th of April, 1992? Do you know about that?

A. I'm not clear on what you mean, Your Honours. I don't understand the question.

Q. Well, you told us when the conflict began; isn't that right? ²⁴¹¹⁷

A. Yes. Do you mean in Foca?

Q. Yes, in Foca. And the fighting went on for eight days, didn't it?

A. Well, I don't know how long the fighting went on for. I didn't say eight days myself, but about eight or ten days, yes.

Q. All right. That's what I wanted to hear from you. Whether it was eight or ten days, it doesn't matter, it's not important.

JUDGE MAY: That may be a convenient moment. I see it's 12.15. Mr. Avdic, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. Could you remember, please, not to speak to anybody about your evidence during the adjournment, and that does include the members of the Prosecution. Could you be back in 20 minutes, please.

--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How long do I have?

JUDGE MAY: 25 minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you recollect that Muslim forces, during these conflicts, held positions in a part of town or the hill known as Sukovac?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us anything at all about the scope of those forces holding that hill?

A. No. I don't know that.

Q. And is it also true that the position -- there were positions also within the KP Dom, that is Muslim positions? ^{24118 BLANK PAGE 24119}

A. I don't know that there were any positions. The KP Dom held prisoners from the period of peace.

Q. I am not asking you about that. It is -- there is no doubt that people were serving their prison sentences in the KP Dom. I'm asking you whether there were Muslim positions, which means armed units, Muslim units within the compound of the KP Dom.

A. I don't know that.

Q. Tell me, please, what kind of weapon was used at Sukovac to open fire on Serb positions?

A. I can only make assumptions. Shells fell on the upper part of Cohodar Mahala, and I was told this by a Serb because we visited each other after Foca fell, and he told me the Serbs were all laughing because not a single one of those shells went off. And that is what I know and what is for certain.

Q. Very well. But do you know that those were howitzers that they had on that hill of Sukovac, that the Muslim forces had howitzers?

A. Your Honours, I said a moment ago that I didn't know which weapons they had. I only know that he told me that there were shells. Now, what weapons were used to fire them, I don't know.

Q. Now, tell me, do you know anything at all as to where those forces got those weapons from?

A. I said a moment ago that I didn't know.

Q. On page 3, paragraph 3, you say that you saw Serbs in uniform torching Muslim houses.

A. Yes. ²⁴¹²⁰

Q. Is that -- is it, however, true, Mr. Avdic -- torching anyone's house is tragic, and I'm not going to comment on that, I'm just asking you about the facts. But is it true that the first houses that were set on fire in Foca were Serb houses?

A. No. They were not the first to be torched.

Q. Very well. And do you know that the Muslims first set fire to Serb houses in the settlement of Donje Polje?

A. No.

Q. And do you know that among the first Serb houses to burn were the houses of Milorad Krnojelac, the Drokula family, the Stankovic family, et cetera? Is that true or not? Do you know that?

A. Your Honours, I don't know whether they were among the first, but I do know that Milorad Krnojelac's house, who was then the warden of the KP Dom, that prisoners who went to repair the house, prisoners from the prison went to repair Milorad Krnojelac's house, and on the basis of what they told us, that they had learned from his wife and children that their house had been set on fire.

Q. And for the Drokula, Stankovic, and other family homes that were set on fire at the very beginning, they were Serb homes. Do you know anything about that?

A. No.

Q. What little you do know you only know from what Muslim -- other Muslims in prison told you. So you didn't see a single Serb house burning?

A. I don't know the exact location of -- of individual Serbs in Foca, ²⁴¹²¹ but they were only in the southern part of Donje Polje, inhabited mostly by Muslims, and Donje Polje was burning.

Q. Yes. But my question was did you know of Serb houses that were burnt, apart from this one that you described? Let's leave that one out. But do you know of any other Serb houses burning?

A. I just said that I didn't know the exact location of Serb houses.

Q. You don't know of any burnt Serb house except this one?

A. There may be some, but I don't know.

Q. Probably that is the reason why you don't mention the torching of Serb houses, because you didn't know about them. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In view of the fact that you are asserting that Serb forces were wearing JNA uniforms, do you know that each member, if he was a military conscript in the former SFRY, was issued a military uniform?

A. I was not militarily involved or engaged because I was proclaimed unfit to serve in the Yugoslav People's Army so that I don't know these things. I was only active in the Civil Defence. And I also had an appropriate uniform of the Civil Defence, but this is quite different; it is blue.

Q. So you don't know that military conscripts had JNA uniforms in their homes?

A. Possibly.

Q. But you yourself, on page 3, paragraph 4, claim that you saw locals, people from Foca, wearing JNA uniforms; is that right?

A. Serbs, Serbs. ²⁴¹²²

Q. Locals of Foca in JNA uniforms. Where did they get JNA uniforms when there was no JNA unit near Foca except for those 12 soldiers in Filipovici guarding the warehouse? So is the reason what I just said?

A. They probably obtained all that equipment earlier on from the Yugoslav army.

Q. And is it beyond dispute, because you say there were citizens of Foca wearing JNA uniforms, that they were members of the local Territorial Defence and not members of the JNA?

A. Now, whether they were local TO, I don't know.

Q. But you're talking about citizens of Foca, and there were no JNA units in town, so surely they must be Territorial Defence.

A. There were some people I didn't know by their appearance but only on the basis of their speech. When I walked around Foca, I made the conclusion, in view of the fact that they spoke Ekavian, that they came from the teritory of Serbia, whereas the people of Foca all use the Ikavian dialect.

Q. Well, that is certainly quite true that the people of Foca use that dialect, but you identified those from Serbia as being members of paramilitary units that you have listed, so I don't need to list them again.

A. Both.

Q. Very well. On page 3 in your statement, paragraph 6, you say that on the 19th of May, 1992, when you were going to visit your mother's house, you were arrested by an armed soldier with a light machine-gun, wearing an olive-grey uniform; is that right? ²⁴¹²³

A. Yes.

Q. In Avdic, in addition to this statement which I'm quoting from which you gave to the investigators on the 16th and 17th of October, 1995, you gave another statement to the Centre of Security Services of Sarajevo on the 12th of October, 1994; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. When talking of your arrest, on page 2 of that statement, in the last paragraph you say that on the 19th of May, you were arrested by the police. Here you say a soldier --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It's tab 23. Has the witness got a copy of it? Let him have a copy of that statement.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just finish my question, Mr. May, so as to be clear.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The police, or to be more precise, the military police, isn't that so?

A. Yes, in uniform, SMB uniform of the former Yugoslav army.

Q. Now, tell me, please, who arrested you; a soldier, a policeman, or a military policeman?

A. A military policeman wearing the uniform of the Yugoslav army.

Q. On what basis did you come to the conclusion that he was a military policeman and not a soldier?

A. He himself told me that.

Q. And what colour was the belt he was wearing and the other equipment on him, not the uniform? ²⁴¹²⁴

A. I didn't pay any attention. I was quite beside myself with fear.

Q. But you do know that the military police differ from ordinary soldiers because they don't wear brown belts but white belts and cross belts. Were they white or not?

A. I don't know. I said that I couldn't really see even properly out of fear.

Q. So you -- so you couldn't even see the man who arrested you.

A. I saw his face, but I was hardly conscious.

Q. Tell me, judging by what you concluded, was he a member of the JNA, the local TO, the Army of Republika Srpska, or whom did he belong to?

A. I don't know.

Q. Very well. Mr. Avdic, in the KP Dom in Foca, you were detained until the 5th of October, 1994; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were then exchanged?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, I'm asking you about your personal experience because I see that you spent a long period of time in the KP Dom. Were you mistreated while you were there?

A. I personally was not physically mistreated by anyone, but psychologically and other types of mistreatment - I had no contact with my family, no medicines, hunger, fear, eternal fear, cold - all this is mistreatment, in my opinion.

Q. Of course it is. I am not disputing that, but I asked you whether you personally were physically mistreated in any way. ²⁴¹²⁵

A. I apologise, Your Honours. That was not the first question. The question was, "Did anyone mistreat you at all?" It was more general.

Q. Very well. Let me repeat that question. Did anyone mistreat you apart from what you said; cold, hunger, poor conditions?

A. Physically, no one.

Q. Very well. On page 4, paragraph 3, you say that at the beginning the guards in the KP Dom were mixed, both locals and people from the outside. Is that what you say?

A. Yes.

Q. You claim that among the guards there were members of the Serb guards. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Who were those people? Who were they?

A. People from Serbia proper wearing uniforms. On the basis of a statement by my colleague who, with his family, was shut up in the KP Dom as soon as the camp was formed, and some 20 days later they were released from the KP Dom, and then when they visited me, we exchanged visits in our homes, they told me that there were people from the outside who were armed, wearing uniforms, who were guarding them initially, in the initial period.

Q. But you didn't see those people from the outside, did you?

A. In the KP Dom, no, I didn't.

Q. That's all I wanted to check, because you know about the presence of people from the outside from somebody else's stories.

A. With respect to the KP Dom, yes, but not with respect to Foca as a ²⁴¹²⁶ whole.

Q. And according to those stories, they were replaced by locals who used to work in the KP Dom before when it was a civilian prison; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as you are concerned, however, you only saw people from Foca who were there.

A. Yes.

Q. Maybe the question is superfluous because, indirectly, you already answered it, but I would like to clarify it. Among the guards or in the administration of the KP Dom, was there anyone from the JNA?

A. In the administration, I don't know. In the administration building I went only once, when I wanted to intervene with the prison warden. I was in his office, and that is the only time I entered that building. So I don't know.

Q. So I see you can't tell us anything about that. Let me now ask you a few brief questions which can all be reduced to a single one. You mention in your statement quite a large number of names when talking about Serbs. You mention a certain forester, Sumar. Is he a man from Foca?

A. Yes.

Q. You mention somebody called Todorovic on page 6, paragraph 7.

A. Yes.

Q. Is he from Foca?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you mention a certain Rasovic in the sixth paragraph, page 6, ²⁴¹²⁷ paragraph 7. Is he from Foca?

A. He lived in Foca. Now, whether he was a native of Foca, I don't know.

Q. Well, I'm talking about the citizens, the inhabitants of Foca. You also mention a certain Burilo, Koroman, Obrenovic, Matovic, Miocevic, Pljevaljcevic, Cancar, Vukovic. Are they all people from Foca?

A. Yes. They were guards at the KP Dom.

Q. So all locals from Foca itself. And a certain Savic and Maric, Stevanovic, Solaja, Pejic. Are they all from Foca too?

A. Yes. They were guards in the KP Dom.

Q. So all these people that you had contact with during your detention in the KP Dom were locals of Foca?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Avdic. I have no more questions for you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have very little to ask this witness.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Avdic, you were exchanged on the 5th and 6th of October?

A. On the 6th in the morning. We left Foca on the 5th, and on the 6th in the morning we were exchanged.

Q. I see. You left on the 5th, you reached close to Sarajevo, as you said here, and at Kule, close to Sarajevo, you saw two armed Chetniks, as you said here, and then later on, when they took you back to Rogolj, again you saw 30 armed Chetniks but the bus didn't stop. And then again in ²⁴¹²⁸ Miljevina when you met the new KP Dom warden, he entered with Chetniks the nearby house and they spoke for about an hour.

My question is: What did you mean when in these three cases you referred to armed Chetniks? What did you mean under that term? Who were those men?

A. They were wearing uniforms. They were all Serbs. When they brought us to Kula for the exchange, we didn't get off the bus. Those two armed Chetniks with machine-guns, wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav army, ordered the guide from Foca who was taking us to Sarajevo to take us back to Foca.

Q. But excuse me, you said as follows: On the way to Rogolj, we saw 30 Chetniks armed but the bus didn't stop. How then could you come to any conclusions as to who those men were, where they were from if you didn't get off the bus at all.

A. That was on the way back from Sarajevo towards Miljevina. There's a restaurant up there on this hill, and on the basis of stories, they just greeted the driver and the escort who was escorting us. This group that was in the building and outside the building next to the road.

Q. So these 70 men that you referred to that were detained in the correctional facility were all exchanged on the 6th?

A. No.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, any re-examination?

MS. PACK: A few questions, Your Honour. Re-examined by Ms. Pack:

Q. Mr. Avdic, you were asked in the course of your cross-examination ²⁴¹²⁹ about barricades erected in Donje Polje in the first few days of the attack on Foca. In those first few days did you leave your apartment building?

A. No.

Q. Why was that?

A. Out of fear. I was afraid they would kill me. I didn't want to be killed.

Q. Were you staying in your apartment or elsewhere in the apartment building?

A. We were hiding in the cellar, in the basement of the building.

Q. You were asked, Mr. Avdic, or you gave evidence in cross-examination about planes flying over Foca. Can you tell us, please, when you saw planes flying over Foca?

A. I saw that after the fall of Foca, which is to say seven or eight days later. I can't be precise. I saw planes flying down the Drina from the Pluzina direction, from the north, about 25 kilometres from Foca, or, rather, to the south of Foca. And they were flying down the Drina River flowing towards the north. This was a military plane, an air force plane, from Gorazde and that part.

Q. And finally, Mr. Avdic, did you come across in your time in Foca someone by the name of Marko Kovac?

A. I can't remember.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, just to note the witness was asked about Donje Polje. If I can note the reference in the Kunarac transcript to earlier evidence about the burning of houses there, the reference is ²⁴¹³⁰ transcript pages 661 and following.

I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Avdic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls the next witness, Mr. Juso Taranin. Mr. Taranin has an unusual set of protections being that he has not requested a pseudonym but has requested, and has been granted from the previous trial, facial distortion. So we have the inconvenience of just setting up the blind before he's brought in.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness to be brought in, may I request a number for the exhibit of binder of three exhibits.

THE REGISTRAR: P491.

JUDGE KWON: We have an exhibit.

JUDGE MAY: Have we a summary in this case?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, we do not have a summary.

JUDGE MAY: You're going to simply ask the witness some questions to start with, are you?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was just going to draw the Chamber's attention to page 3.005 of the transcript. This witness was called to be cross-examined on the JNA involvement. I would point out to the Chamber what that was. He testified previously about going to a military ²⁴¹³¹ warehouse of the JNA seeking protection. He will discuss the guards that he saw there. He will talk about Major Muharem Kurtovic who was mentioned in the last cross-examination. He has also testified previously about the arrival of people he described as Chetniks, about how they exerted some command over the JNA soldiers present at the warehouse, and finally, he has described in his prior testimony the killing of seven men at that warehouse. That is the portion of the testimony that I believe is in controversy. I have explained to the witness that I would not ask him any questions or read any summary before his testimony. He will simply be asked questions by the accused.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If you would stand, please, and take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Please take a seat.

WITNESS: JUSO TARANIN

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Mr. Taranin, the Chamber has before it the prior testimony that you gave in another proceedings before the International Tribunal. I will not ask you any questions now, but you will be asked questions by Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Taranin, in addition to the statement you ^{24132 BLANK PAGE 24133} gave to the investigators on the 4th and 5th of May, 1995, you also gave another statement in Skopje on the 11th of July, 1992; is that right?

A. Probably.

Q. I didn't hear your answer.

A. Probably.

Q. Well, I have the statement here in front of me. I was given it along with the one you gave to the investigators. Tell me, please, who is this man Vahid Bogunic whom you gave the statement to in 1992?

A. He's a man, an officer it seems that he was of the Yugoslav army, and that's what he asked me. I remember.

Q. So it was somebody who took down your statement in Skopje. This man was an officer of the JNA, is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. In that statement, you said that on the 18th of April, you found yourself in the village of Filipovici in the military depot of the JNA warehouse; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that in -- you arrived in that JNA warehouse because you believed that you, just like the other civilians who happened to find themselves there, that you'd be protected, find protection there?

A. Yes.

Q. Filipovici is a village 12 kilometres away from Foca; is that right?

A. Well, I can't say exactly how many kilometres, but it's around ²⁴¹³⁴ eight, ten, 12, thereabouts. I never measured the distance.

Q. Is it true that as far as the JNA guards standing guard over that warehouse, there was a total of 12 soldiers providing security?

A. I don't know how many, but soldiers were there and there was an officer there, too, from Foca.

Q. Yes. But you don't know that there were just 12 soldiers stationed there?

A. I don't know how many soldiers, no.

Q. And do you know what kind of warehouse it was?

A. I don't know that either. All I know is that it was up in the hills because I have a weekend cottage nearby, near the warehouse.

Q. All right. And do you know that it was in fact a fuel depot and military equipment warehouse, but no weapons or anything there except for those used by the soldiers guarding the place?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. Is it true that in the warehouse, along with those 12 soldiers there, and you say you don't know how many of them were there, as their officer and a man in charge of the warehouse, generally speaking, there was a JNA major by the name of Muharem Kurtovic?

A. Yes, that's right, and I know him well.

Q. All right. And is this true too, that you said that around 1800 hours on that same day, a group stormed the JNA warehouse of about 80 members of the Serb guards, is that right, who had on their caps the cockades, crosses, or something like that?

A. What they had on their caps, I can't say. I didn't know about ²⁴¹³⁵ those things much, but I think they had cockades and the flag too.

Q. All right. Now, I don't suppose you're challenging the fact that the people that stormed the warehouse were not in fact JNA members?

A. I consider that they were, because they were wearing uniforms of soldiers who were also with them of the -- of that former army of yours -- of ours, sorry, of ours, and the ones wearing camouflage uniforms, the guards.

Q. You also say in your statement given in Skopje that the commander of the unit, the leader of the unit, you're talking about the people who arrived, you say a unit of the Serb guards arrived. So not the JNA. And that's what it says in paragraph 3. And then you go on to say that the commander of the unit with another few individuals went to see Major Kurtovic and they negotiated with them. And during that time, the rest engaged in preparation to -- the soldiers, for them to leave the barracks, as you refer to this military facility.

A. I think that it also says -- I think what it says in the statement is what I said, and I stand by it. I stand by what I said in my statement, and I think it's all written down there.

Q. I don't know what you mean.

A. Well, the soldiers and the guards. These soldiers and the guard.

Q. I'm only quoting from your statement. That's all I'm doing, nothing else.

So you say that the commander of that unit, the unit that arrived with this insignia, these 80 men, went to negotiate with Major Kurtovic. Do you know what they were negotiating? ²⁴¹³⁶

A. No.

Q. All right. Now, is it true and can we deduce from this that the members of that paramilitary unit loaded up the soldiers onto a truck, or rather, evicted them from the facility and drove them off in an unknown direction?

A. No. Those soldiers were there. How they left, I really can't say. I don't know. But they mistreated us there. They beat us. They killed some people.

Q. But not JNA soldiers.

A. No, the guards.

Q. That's why I'm saying this. Major Kurtovic, you say yourself, left that place in his own private car, drove off in his own car; is that right?

A. I didn't see it happen, and I couldn't see it, but most probably he did leave. I didn't see him do it because we were -- we had our hands up in the air, had to keep them raised. And we were put up against this hangar and we weren't allowed to move at all. Some people were shot there and goodness knows what else.

Q. Yes. But in your statement, you say that Major Kurtovic's soldiers with their own sidearms were loaded up onto the truck and driven off. And Major Kurtovic left the warehouse, the barracks, as you say, in his own car which was a Golf.

A. Well, probably. I don't know really.

Q. And not a single one of his soldiers shot a single bullet. So this small unit of 12 men were evicted from the JNA warehouse. ²⁴¹³⁷

A. No. They were all there together. They weren't evicted, forced out. Them and the soldiers, they seem to be the same.

Q. All right, Mr. Taranin. Well, is it true that somebody standing guard in front of the warehouse could have left their posts unless they were forced to, and they couldn't have been forced to had there been any serious JNA unit there in the Foca region at that time. Who would have dared to evict the guards from the warehouse and Major Kurtovic?

A. Well, I don't want to enter into that subject. I don't know.

Q. All right. Let's not, then. Let's not pursue the point. You go on to say that you saw that the members of this paramilitary unit shot seven Muslims, is that right, on that occasion?

A. Yes.

Q. I didn't hear your answer.

A. Yes.

Q. That has nothing to do with the JNA soldiers. You say of them in this statement that they did not take part in that; is that right?

A. They stood to the side.

Q. They were thrown out of there?

A. No, they weren't thrown out. They were there. They were moving around there.

Q. They were loaded onto vehicles and driven off, that's what you say.

A. No, we were loaded onto vehicles and they probably, after us, followed. The guards were put on buses too, and together with us they arrived at Velecevo, where they had taken us. ²⁴¹³⁸

Q. Did those soldiers come with them or not?

A. I don't know about the soldiers.

Q. You say Kurtovic, the soldiers of Major Kurtovic, with their sidearms, were loaded onto vehicles and driven off. Major Kurtovic left the barracks in his private passenger car of the Golf brand.

A. Possibly.

Q. Possibly. I see. In your statement that you gave to the investigators, on page 2, paragraph 5, you say that you saw some ten days prior to this attack on Foca when you say that the Serbs took control of Foca, members of the JNA came into town in their private cars to distribute weapons to the local Serbs. Is that what you said in your statement?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now tell me, please, why you did not mention those allegations in your statement given in Skopje in June 1992.

A. How do I know? I didn't know this officer, so I didn't have much contact with him. I didn't know him. He came to my room.

Q. You see that his name was Bogunic Vahid. He was obviously a Muslim. So what was the problem; you didn't trust him?

A. I didn't, because I had left this Golgotha out of fear. I didn't trust him. I didn't believe him about his name or anything else, but he persuaded me to make this statement, so I did.

Q. Very well. Since you say in the statement that you now confirmed and which I quoted from on page 2, paragraph 5, that members of the JNA came in private cars and distributed weapons, how did you know that they ²⁴¹³⁹ were JNA members if some people came in private passenger cars and distributed weapons?

A. Not in private cars, but a two-tonne truck with a tarpaulin arrived. And this officer and the soldiers who brought this in front of my building gave the weapons out, and all those who took the weapons entered the building. They didn't conceal anything. This was happening in front of the building I lived in.

Q. But I'm asking you on the basis of your statement, because you said on page 2, paragraph 5, that they came in civilian cars and that they distributed weapons. Is that right or not?

A. In private cars, no. It wasn't like that. A small truck arrived, and that's how it was. That's what I said in my statement.

Q. Fine. Fine. I'm just drawing your attention to paragraph 5, page 2 of your statement to the investigators. We can move on, because I don't want to waste any more time.

Those men who arrived in those cars, were they wearing JNA uniforms?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe those uniforms?

A. The uniforms of the former Yugoslav army, olive-green uniforms.

Q. Green-grey SMB uniforms?

A. Yes, the ordinary regular uniform.

Q. Yes. Well, does this indicate that they were certainly members of the TO, the Territorial Defence?

A. I don't know. Perhaps. I don't know. I saw soldiers and a ²⁴¹⁴⁰ lower-ranking officer, but I don't know who he was. They didn't hide anything.

Q. That's why I'm saying that in view of the uniform, there must have been members of the Territorial Defence because they wore ordinary olive-green/grey uniforms. Is that right?

A. I had such a uniform in my own apartment.

Q. Fine.

A. Because I was a member of the Territorial Defence as a soldier.

Q. That's very good. I won't ask you any more about that. So we'll move on to my next question. On page 2, paragraph 8, you say that on the 8th of April, from the surrounding hills, the attack on Foca started and that the conflict went on, according to the previous witness, eight to ten days. He can't say exactly how long it lasted.

How long did it last according to you, how many days?

A. I can't tell you for certain, because I left. That night when there was the conflict, it wasn't really a conflict. It was fear that had spread through our bones, and I left my house and went to my weekend home at Ustikolina near to the military facility.

Q. I understand that, but do you have any knowledge as to how long it lasted, how many days?

A. Maybe more than ten days, but there was no major conflict. I don't know that there was any.

Q. If there was no major conflict, why then did the Serbs need more than ten days to take control of Foca if there was no conflict?

A. How do I know? The Serbs took Foca in 24 hours. ²⁴¹⁴¹

Q. So was it in 24 hours or eight to ten days? Make your mind up.

A. Well, from the hills. But the town was taken over by the Serbian police, the post office as well. And what else then? They were across the Drina. On one side there was the Serb army, what kind of army it was, I don't know. I didn't see them. And on this other side, I have no idea who was on the other side. There was just shooting just like that for no particular purpose.

Q. So you mean the Muslim side was shooting just like that?

A. Well, there was nothing to shoot at. No one was defending it.

Q. Nobody was defending Foca? So no one was defending it, and it took the Serbs ten days to take control of it.

Q. But I'm telling you, they took it over in 24 hours. The police took it over and everything was over.

Q. Very well, Mr. Taranin. And who was fighting who?

JUDGE MAY: No. He's answered that. Let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you have any knowledge which positions were held by Muslim forces in Foca during those conflicts?

A. I have no idea that they held positions anywhere in Foca and around Foca.

Q. So you don't know anything at all even when you say that they were shooting just like that. From what positions were they shooting just like that as you put it, these members of the Muslim forces? From which positions?

A. I don't know that they had any positions. I don't know that they ²⁴¹⁴² had any positions.

Q. Well, they must have shot from somewhere, even if it was without any reason or cause.

JUDGE MAY: We're going round in circles, and the witness said that he can take the matter no further than he has done.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know anything at all about artillery firing on Serb positions by Muslim forces?

A. There weren't any, nor was there any artillery because so many people wouldn't have fled if they had that.

Q. The previous witness said there was some, only the shells didn't go off.

JUDGE MAY: The witness can't answer for what some other witness said. He said there wasn't any, this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. He said both. He is not disputing the fact that they were shooting, only he says that they were shooting just like that, but even that he can't tell us where from.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, tell me, do you know the part of town known as Donje Polje?

A. Yes, only I was in Gornje Polje.

Q. So you don't know anything about any military operations from that part of town?

A. No, nothing. I was in the basement. I know nothing about that. I just heard the shooting and that's all, nothing more than that. ²⁴¹⁴³

Q. The fighting in Foca, was it between local Serb and Muslim forces in Foca?

A. I can't tell you that either, because I don't know. I don't think that they were locals. I think they were all from the outside, in my opinion.

Q. Very well, in your opinion. I'm not asking you of your opinion, I'm asking you about facts.

Tell me, did you notice a single JNA member or any JNA unit that was participating in the fighting in Foca, the fighting that continued from the 8th up until the 16th or 20th of April, I don't know. Did you -- my question is: Did you notice a single JNA unit involved in the fighting in Foca? Yes or no?

A. It says what I said in my statement, and I know nothing more than that.

Q. My question is quite specific. Did you notice a single unit or member of the JNA participating in the fighting in Foca from the 8th to the 16th of April? Did you notice any?

A. Yes, I did. I noticed tanks and cannon and everything along the Drina towards Scepan Polje and Brod on the Drina. I noticed them moving.

Q. Where were they moving to?

A. They were moving towards Scepan Polje up there.

Q. I'm asking you about the conflict in Foca.

A. The conflict in Foca? I can't tell you anything about that.

Q. So you can't tell me anything. Very well. In that conflict, were the same units involved that had broken ²⁴¹⁴⁴ into the JNA warehouse when you were there?

A. Probably, yes.

Q. On page 3, paragraph 8, you say that the commander of this paramilitary unit was accompanied all the time by a soldier who was about 60 years old who had a grey beard; is that right?

A. He was an officer.

Q. And he wore a camouflage uniform; is that right?

A. Yes. The camouflage uniform that soldiers everywhere wear.

Q. And is it clear to you, in view of his experience and his grey beard and his 60 years of age, that he couldn't have been an officer or soldier of the JNA?

A. He was probably an active-duty officer.

Q. Did you ever see an active-duty officer with a grey beard, or any kind of beard, for that matter, in the JNA? Did you see such a person ever? Did you ever hear of any such person?

A. While Tito was alive, they couldn't -- weren't allowed to wear any beards or anything like that.

Q. And do you know that anyone was ever allowed in the JNA or the Army of Yugoslavia to wear a beard?

A. They were probably reserve officers.

Q. Let me shorten this. Since this question of private cars and grey beards is still disputed: During your stay in the KP Dom in Foca, did you notice anyone over there that was a member of the JNA?

A. I couldn't see when I was in the building. I didn't go out. They wouldn't let us go out. So what could I see? ^{24145 BLANK PAGE 24146}

Q. Since you didn't see anything, do you know at all that all the personnel came from the local population? Do you know that?

A. I only saw policemen.

Q. Were they also locals?

A. I didn't know any one of them. A few of them. They were former policemen who held the KP Dom, probably.

Q. From Foca?

A. Where they were from, I don't know.

Q. I see. You don't know that either. Very well. On page 5 of the statement to the investigators, in paragraph 3 you say that Chetniks, as you put it, came to the bus stop while you were waiting with your wife for the bus in order to leave Foca; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. When you explain that in those terms, is it at least true that even then you didn't notice among them a single member of the JNA?

A. They were soldiers, real soldiers, as they say, in those camouflage uniforms, and they were shooting up above our heads.

Q. Is it true, Mr. Taranin, that the only JNA soldiers that you saw during those events you are testifying about were those soldiers of Major Kurtovic in the warehouse? Is that right or not, Mr. Taranin?

A. As I was saying, there were these people who came, and there were these others who were there.

Q. My question is a very precise one: Is it true that the only JNA soldiers is that you saw throughout that period were Major Kurtovic's soldiers in the warehouse where you had sought shelter? Is that right or ²⁴¹⁴⁷ not, Mr. Taranin?

A. Yes, there were soldiers and these others who had come.

Q. We've already explained how these came and how the soldiers left, but --

JUDGE MAY: We have -- we have dealt with this. We can return to it tomorrow morning. We're going to adjourn now because it's the time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there's no need for this witness to come back tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: We have to adjourn pretty promptly. Have you any questions?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

MR. GROOME: No questions, Your Honour, but if I could just point out two factual things: The statement that's been referred to, there's evidence that it was originated by a JNA or army soldier. In fact, the letterhead indicates it was a civilian commission set up by the Bosnian Presidency. And then the other thing I would just like to point out to the Chamber, in the other municipalities we've dealt with, the Drina has served as the border between Serbia and Bosnia. South of Srebrenica and in the Foca municipality, the Drina does not; it flows to the interior of Bosnia and it's Bosnia on both sides of the Drina.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Taranin, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. If you would wait until we've gone and then the blinds will be pulled down.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., ²⁴¹⁴⁸ to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.