Milosevic Transcript 2003-07-22

²⁴⁶²³

Tuesday, 22 July 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I continue my examination, I want to correct the record from something I said last week. I originally said that Prosecution Exhibit 505 had 12 tabs. That was an error. There are actually 17 tabs in that exhibit. And in the interest of saving time, the Prosecution will be withdrawing tab number 16. We will not work with it with this witness.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

Q. Sir, we interrupted your testimony your last week with you describing when you received a DRS identification card, and you concluded your testimony by describing that that situation was not unique to yourself. I'd like to begin this morning by asking you: Were you aware of other officers that had dual forms of identification? And if so, can you describe the different types of identification that these other officers had.

A. Well, as far as the military identification cards are concerned - and I'm talking about the senior officers of the Army of Republika Srpska who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre - up until 1996 there was just ²⁴⁶²⁴ the military ID card of the Yugoslav People's Army, and it was certified by the Army of Yugoslavia; whereas after 1996, what they introduced was an ID card of the Army of Republika Srpska. And from that time on, there were dual or double documents.

Now, if there were any controls, then you knew which one you had to show. It was quite normal that in Republika Srpska you would show your ID issued by the authorities of the Army of Republika Srpska. And all the members and all the officers belonging to the 30th Personnel Centre did have this possibility.

Now, in addition to that, you could also do the following: You had civilian documents, and we can deal with that later on.

Q. I'm going to ask you to deal with that now. So you've described the situation with respect to military documents. My question to you is: Did members of the VRS born in Bosnia, living in Bosnia, did they also, to your knowledge, have civilian documentation identifying them as citizens of Serbia?

A. Could you repeat that question, please? Do you mean the officers belonging to the 30th Personnel Centre or the officers who we can call conditionally Karadzic's officers? Which ones do you mean?

Q. The officers of the 30th Personnel Centre, did they have civilian documentation identifying themselves as citizens of Serbia?

A. The officers -- when I say "officers," actually I mean other categories of persons too, officers, non-commissioned officers, civilians working in the JNA, employed there, who later came -- became workers for the army, and for a time up to 1994 contractual staff too. So in addition ²⁴⁶²⁵ to the documents that -- or rather, their civilian documents that could be issued in Republika Srpska, the other way they could go about this was to regulate their civilian documents in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In principle, this all boiled down to the fact that officers from one country couldn't be an officer until he had the citizenship of that particular country, state. And there was also the possibility after the war of settling your citizenship in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and by which you could take out an ID card and then table a request for citizenship to the Federal Ministry of the Interior.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 9.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this exhibit and ask you: Do you recognise it?

A. Yes, I do recognise this document. This is a document which refers to the regulation of Yugoslav citizenship, what we were talking about a moment ago. And it specifies how one regulates Yugoslav citizenship issued by the command. I don't want to mention the number of the corps and the degree of confidentiality. It was issued, as is said here, by Colonel -- the colonel who signed the document. In principle, this relates to the regulation of Yugoslav citizenship for members of the 30th Personnel Centre on the basis of the law and documents of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Q. Now, last week you testified that during your entire service assigned to a VRS unit, that you never received any pay from the VRS, that all of the pay came from the 30th Personnel Centre. My question to you ²⁴⁶²⁶ today is: Were you aware of other officers in your unit that had the same arrangement? And if so, can you tell us how many or what percentage of officers in your unit had a similar arrangement with the 30th Personnel Centre.

A. As for the members of the 30th Personnel Centre, and the percentages in my unit, that number in principle ranged between -- or rather, went up to about 60 officers belonging to the 30th Personnel Centre; and are in the Army of Republika Srpska, that was five or six officers who were actually Karadzic's officers.

I'd like to clarify one point: Karadzic's officers and the officers belonging to the 30th Personnel Centre, something in that regard, in the republic it was common knowledge among the people of what that difference was. So the officers who during the war were in Bosnia and underwent a shortened training programme were referred to as Karadzic's officers; whereas the officers who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre were called Milosevic's officers. It's not quite logical because at that time the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was somebody else, in fact, and not Milosevic, but --

JUDGE MAY: Could you just answer the questions that counsel asks you. If he wants an explanation, he'll -- he'll ask for it. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME:

Q. In addition to the --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. ²⁴⁶²⁷

Q. In addition to the officers that you describe as being paid through the 30th Personnel Centre, were there other types of staff in your unit that you are aware were paid for by the Army of Yugoslavia, the VJ?

A. Yes. A large number of people who were in our units and appointed by order of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. Can you please give us the categories of employees.

A. As far as the categories of military employees are concerned belonging to the 30th Personnel Centre, let me take this in order. There were the officers, high-ranking officers and generals. Then there was the non-commissioned officers category, the NCOs; and the civilians employed in the JNA, which later became known as workers in the army. They, too, belonged there throughout that time - that is to say, belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre - and a certain number of soldiers who were there on a contract basis and who until the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina had a signed contract with the then JNA. I should just like to emphasise in that regard that those contractual workers were taken off the list of the 30th Personnel Centre sometime in 1994.

Q. Sir, in your unit, what percentage of the entire staff of that unit was paid for by the Yugoslav army, or the VJ?

A. As for the officers cadres, in my unit the number was over 90 per cent in view of the fact that this was a technical service of an army, branch of an army.

Q. What percentage of the civilian staff in your unit, if you know, was made up of people paid for by the VJ?

A. I apologise, but what do you mean by "civilians"? Do you mean ²⁴⁶²⁸ workers employed in the army? Is that what you mean?

Q. That's correct. The ones you referred to a moment ago. Are you able to say what percentage of those type of workers in your unit were paid for by the VJ?

A. In principle, that comes down to one category: All civilians employed in the JNA who until the 6th of April had employment in the Yugoslav People's Army, after the 6th of April became just workers in the army, and they were paid by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia still.

Q. And these workers that you're now referring to, are these workers that remained in Bosnia after the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia?

A. Yes, yes. They remained in Bosnia after the withdrawal of the JNA, after the 6th of April.

Q. Now, without going into the circumstances under which you had an opportunity to see other people's personnel papers, did you have an opportunity to see the names or the personnel documents of other high-ranking members of the VRS that indicated to you that they were members also of the 30th Personnel Centre?

A. As for the members of the centre, of the 30th Personnel Centre, that is, the personnel administration and general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, I can't establish the exact number, but I can say that it was a large number of persons. Colonel Lisica, the commander of the tactical operative group of Doboj, for example; General Talic, the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps and later chief of the Army of Republika Srpska, chief of staff; that and many others, so it's a large number. But for the most part, it refers to the officers who had worked for the JNA continued to ²⁴⁶²⁹ work in the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. If I can now turn your attention to a slightly different topic. Can I ask you to give a brief explanation regarding how promotions operated, how the system of promotions operated with respect to members of the 30th Personnel Centre serving in Bosnia.

A. Your Honours, this was promotion, another category, promotions for officers. And the promotion of officers who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre and were located in the Army of Republika Srpska was conducted in Belgrade on the basis of the service itself, their service, and this was a factual promotion. There was the possibility of promotions pursuant to the president of Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic's requests, but in the material sense, until that rank and title is verified by the Army of Yugoslavia, the person -- the promotion in question was -- did not come into effect, to all intents and purposes, because the moneys received by an officer on the basis of his rank was determined by the Army of Yugoslavia, so that in practice what happened was that the possibility existed that in the Army of Republika Srpska an individual - for example, a general - was being paid by the army as he would be for the rank of colonel. So until the Army of Yugoslavia certified and verified that rank, he would receive the former salary.

Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 10. And ask you: Do you recognise what this document is? And if so, can you please summarise it briefly for us.

A. Your Honours, I do recognise this document. I know what is contained in it, what it's about, and it refers to what we were talking ²⁴⁶³⁰ about a moment ago. And in this particular case, it refers to a certain general for recognition of the right to a salary group, and that group is PG4, and confirmation --

Q. Could I ask you to tell us what is the general's name who is the subject of this document.

A. Yes. This is the request by General Stanislav Galic for recognition of the right to salary group PG4 and confirmation of the rank of lieutenant general. The document was signed by the chief of the general staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, Major General Pero Colic, and it was sent to the personnel administration of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. Now, the chief of staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska is in essence requesting the 30th Personnel Centre, or the Yugoslav army, to do what with respect to General Galic?

A. First of all, this gentleman, actually Major General Pero Colic, this is a request, this document is been tabled in the form of a request. And he is reporting and requesting that General Stanislav Galic be given recognition for the PG4 salary group instead of the number 6 group that he previously had, in order to regulate his pension, retirement benefits, and so on. So the level of salary groups goes from a higher level to a lower level. From officers, it ranges from group 21 downwards.

Q. I'm going to now ask you to read a portion of that document. If I could just draw your attention to the second paragraph where it says -- beginning with, "The decrees were issued by the responsible superior officer in the conformity with the regulations of the Army of Yugoslavia ²⁴⁶³¹ which were valid at the time they were issued." Perhaps instead of asking you to read that, could I ask you to comment on that sentence. Does that indicate that promotions were regulated -- promotions of officers in the VRS serving in the 30th Personnel Centre were regulated by the law governing the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, they were regulated by the law governing the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. I'm going to now ask you to take a look at several documents belonging to personnel folders of some other prominent members of the VRS and ask for your brief comment on them. I would first turn your attention to Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 11. And if I could draw the Chamber's attention to the first green tag in that tab. And my question to you with respect to this document: Is this another year-of-service form similar to the year-of-service form that we discussed at length in your testimony last week with respect to yourself?

A. Yes. This is another example of the year-of-service form --

Q. Sir --

A. -- for pension insurance.

Q. Does this relate to a person by the name of Dragan Obrenovic?

A. Yes, it does relate to Obrenovic, son of Milomir, a major working at the military post. And this is the document regulating his years of service and pensionable service years.

Q. And does it indicate whether or not he received double credit in the army -- while serving in Bosnia, whether he received double credit towards his pension with the Yugoslav army, the VJ? ²⁴⁶³²

A. Your Honours, under point 2, we see the calculations for the length of service following the 12/24 formula relating to the years of service of officers during wars.

Q. Now, members of the 30th Personnel Centre serving in Bosnia, did they have the right to military housing in Yugoslavia?

A. As far as that is concerned, certain persons regulated their housing in the Army of Yugoslavia. Some regulated it within Republika Srpska. And in principle, that didn't mean that all the members of the 30th cadre centre had it in one or the other form. But it is important to state that those who did not have their housing problems regulated would receive remuneration and an added sum of money to cater to their housing costs.

Q. They would receive that remuneration from which army, the VRS or the VJ?

A. From the Army of Yugoslavia. All payments to members of the 30th Personnel Centre came from the Army of Yugoslavia, were regulated through it.

MR. GROOME: Could I ask that the witness be shown tab 11 of Prosecution Exhibit 505. And if I could draw the Chamber's attention to the blue tag.

Q. And my question to you, sir --

JUDGE MAY: Can I just deal with one very small matter, indeed --

MR. GROOME: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: -- but it can go very wrong. Until two weeks ago, exhibits produced by the Prosecution were simply referred to as exhibits, ²⁴⁶³³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶³⁴ as I recollect. And two weeks ago, for some reason a new regime was introduced, without consultation, where Prosecution exhibits suddenly were called Prosecution Exhibits and marked with a P. Now, that, I would suggest, is going to lead to great confusion because after more than a year we suddenly have a new marking. Now, you must go back to the old system and mark the exhibits simply as exhibits and Defence Exhibits will be given a D number, the Prosecution will simply have a number. And it would be helpful if you would bear that in mind, Mr. Groome, in referring to these exhibits.

MR. GROOME: I will, Your Honour. My apologies.

JUDGE MAY: No, no need to apologise.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I ask you to take a look at this exhibit. Is this a document with respect to Major Obrenovic's housing situation as regulated by the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. Your Honours, this is also a request by Major Obrenovic from which we can see that he had requested that his housing problems be resolved, and the request was addressed to the command of the town of Novi Sad in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And it was signed by Lieutenant Colonel Gojko Mijic of -- head of the personnel centre.

Q. Now, if I can turn your attention to Exhibit 505, tab 11. And this would be the first red tag, to assist the Chamber, in the particular document of this tab.

Sir, I ask you to take a look at this document. I ask you: Do you recognise it, and can you summarise it for the Chamber? ²⁴⁶³⁵

A. Your Honours, I have in my hand order number BP/5/2/150 of the commander of the 5th Corps, dated the 29th of September, 1998. It deals with the appointment of Milomir Obrenovic, a Lieutenant Colonel of the armoured mechanised unit. And he's appointed commander of the 503rd motorised brigade.

Q. I want to read you one sentence of that document and ask you to explain its meaning to the Chamber. I'm quoting from the document: "Currently under RF and MF, deputising for the commander of the 503rd Motorised Brigade in the VJ ground forces 30th Personnel Centre Corps." My question to you is: The 503rd Motorised Brigade, in which army did that motorised brigade belong?

A. The 503rd Motorised Brigade belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. And the phrase "VJ ground forces 30th Personnel Centre Corps," which army is that referring to?

A. It refers to 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia.

MR. GROOME: Now, if I could ask that the witness be shown document -- or Exhibit 505, tab 11. And this would be the second red tab. And for the record, the ERN number ends in 6839.

Q. And if I could draw your attention to the first sentence in that document: "I accepted my duty as a commander of the 503rd Motorised Brigade in the 5th Corps in the 30th Personnel Centre in the Yugoslav army general staff." This is a letter signed by Lieutenant Colonel Dragan Obrenovic. Can you please explain the first sentence in that letter. Where exactly is Lieutenant Colonel Obrenovic assigned? ²⁴⁶³⁶

A. This is the takeover of duty by the commander of the 503rd Motorised Brigade in the 5th Corps in the 30th Personnel Centre in the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, where exactly is the location of the unit, the date when the duty was taken over, and signed in person by Lieutenant Colonel Dragan Obrenovic. Forwarded also to the personnel administration of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the financial body. The stamp of the command of the 5th Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Now, I want to turn to the personnel folder or personnel documents from the file of Lieutenant Vinko Pandurevic. And the first document I'd ask you to look at is document 505, tab 12. And the Chamber -- it's been marked by a red tab that is ERN number ending 0337. Last week you identified a document regulating your pension rights with respect to your service. Is this document a similar document with respect to Lieutenant Vinko Pandurevic?

A. Correct. In this case, this is a document of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia. It relates to Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, whereby a decision is being taken to recognise double credit for years of service from 1992 onwards.

Q. Do you recognise the signature on the bottom of that document?

A. Yes. It is the signature of Colonel Ljubomir Lalic, who was in the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. And is he the person who signed many of your personnel documents?

A. All documents were signed by Ljubomir Lalic or Gojko Mijic, who both worked in the 30th Personnel Centre. When I say that they worked ²⁴⁶³⁷ there, I mean that they actually worked in the 30th Personnel Centre in Belgrade.

Q. Now, if I can turn your attention to another document in tab 12, and this is ERN number ending 9019, and it's marked by a green tag in the -- the binders distributed to the Chamber and to the amici and the accused. Is this another example of a Years of Service form, the type which you've described in detail last week?

A. Your Honours, this is another example for Vinko Pandurevic - in this case, it says "Major" - regulating his retirement benefit, and on the basis of the previous decision, we see that he is recognised double credit for years of service as of 1992. Signed by the 30th Personnel Centre, Belgrade, by -- and signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic and registered in Belgrade.

Q. The final document I'd ask you to comment on from this tab is ERN ending 0095, and it's marked by a blue tag in the binders distributed in the court here. Can I ask you: Do you recognise this document? And if so, can you briefly summarise what is contained in this document.

A. Your Honours, this is an order 2-252 dated the 31st of December, 1995. It deals with the promotion of Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic to the rank of infantry colonel. And it is indicated that he is employed in the 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and the date of the promotion.

Underneath, we also see the promotion to the rank of major, the colonel of armoured mechanised units, that is, Dragan Obrenovic also serving in the 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the ²⁴⁶³⁸ Yugoslavia army, and he's being promoted on such and such a date, military post Zvornik. And registered in the military post at Zvornik.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness now be shown Exhibit 505, tab 13. The ERN ends in 0732, and it's marked by a red tag.

Q. Sir, if I could just ask you to briefly comment. This is a personnel document belonging to Colonel Jovo Kundacina. Is this another example of a member of the 30th Personnel Centre having his pension rights regulated by the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, it is. This is a decision recognising for Colonel Jovo Kundacina double years of service as of the 20th of May, 1992. And it is signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic from the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. Now, if I can ask you to look at document 505 -- in 505 -- Exhibit 505, tab 14, ERN ending 9459. It's marked by a green tag. Is this another example of a Years of Service form? If you can just briefly tell us yes or no and the name of the person who this pertains to.

A. Your Honours, this is another document recognising for this particular officer -- this is a retirement form from which one can see the period for which double credit is given, and that is for the years of service during wartime.

Q. Can you describe the -- can you tell us the years or the period during which this person received double credit.

A. For this person, for this military officer, the wartime double credit is given from the 25th of July, 1992 until the 9th of November, 1993, because the decision was written in 1994.

Q. And who signed this document? ²⁴⁶³⁹

A. This document was signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic in the 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. And the only other document in this particular tab I'd ask you to look at ends in ERN number 9461, and it's marked by a red tag. Can I ask you: Do you recognise this document? Can you please summarise what this document is.

A. This is the same person, and a certificate is being issued to him. This is a certificate showing that this person has been transferred and appointed to a duty in military post 3001 Belgrade where he performed tasks in the zone of combat operations from the 25th of July, 1992. And it is intended for regulating double years of service, and it is signed by the commander, Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.

Q. And the final set of documents or personnel records from the 30th Personnel Centre I'd ask you to look at are contained in tab 15 of Exhibit 505. You mentioned earlier today about promotions occurring both in the VRS but finally being recognised in the 30th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav army. I would ask you to take a look at these documents and ask you to -- to describe what is contained in these documents.

A. Your Honour, we have here an extract from the order of the command of the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, whereby Zoran Mandic is promoted to the rank of lieutenant, but promotion was written by Lieutenant General Ratko Mladic, and it is certified by Lieutenant Colonel Mile Negovanovic, or confirmed by Mile Negovanovic.

Q. What is the date of that document?

A. The 3rd of February, 1993. ²⁴⁶⁴⁰

Q. I'm going to ask you to look at another document from that same tab, ending in ERN number 4829. It's dated the 7th of January, 1993. Can I ask you to describe what's contained in that document.

A. Generally speaking, Your Honours, this is the same sort of document, only this latter document is an extract from order 3-3 of the chief of staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, whereby the same person is being promoted to the same rank. The difference being that it was signed by the chief of staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, a Lieutenant General Momcilo Perisic. And the promotion applies to the same date, the 20th of July, 1992, which means that this rank has been verified, or this act of promotion has been verified by the Yugoslav army. The person bearing a certain rank in the Army of Republika Srpska, that rank was verified on his payment slip. He's being paid on the basis of that rank.

Q. Now, the final set of documents I'm going to ask you to comment on in your testimony this morning are contained in Exhibit 505, tab 17. I'm going to ask that you be shown the two documents in that -- or I ask that you be shown the document ending in 1850. Can I ask you to describe -- first of all, the heading of that reads "Military post 4001 Belgrade." Can I ask you to describe what that military post is and describe what is contained in this document.

A. The 30th Personnel Centre was organised for the territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina. Similarly, the territory of Croatia under Serbian control had organised a 40th Personnel Centre, and this is a document of that kind issued by military post 4001 Belgrade, which means the 40th Personnel Centre. And in this, Milan Celeketic, father's name ²⁴⁶⁴¹ Pero, in the service at the military post 4001, which means the 40th Personnel Centre, and who is on duty in the military post 9000 Knin. And this has to do with recognition of rights or entitlements on the basis of aggravated circumstances, that is, an increased amount in relation to his basic salary.

Q. If I can ask you now to take a look at the other document in that tab, ending ERN 1853. And the first question I would ask you regarding this document is: Do you recognise the signature of this document from the 40th Personnel Centre?

A. Your Honour, I do recognise the signature. It is the person who signed my documents as well, and that is Colonel Ljubomir Lalic, and his signature, the man employed in the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. Sir, during the time, the period of time between 1992 to 1995 during which you served in Bosnia as a member of the 30th Personnel Centre, did you consider yourself to be a member -- or you considered yourself to be a member of which army?

A. During the wartime period, from 1992 to 1995, on all the grounds that constitute the position of an officer, rank, and promotion, and all my duties and rights, I considered myself and the rest of us as members of the Army of Yugoslavia.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the final matter that I would seek to put to this witness, I'd ask that a video be marked for identification. The Prosecution will be tendering it through a witness next week. But because of this witness's expertise, he will be able to identify a small portion of that video, so I would ask that it be given a number for ²⁴⁶⁴² identification and that a few seconds of it be played for this witness.

THE REGISTRAR: 506, marked for identification.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at the video screen before you, and it will go by rather quickly. So I'd ask the director to now play it. After it finishes, I'd ask you to describe, if you can, identify the type of helicopter shown by the instrument panel that you can see in this video.

[Videotape played]

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir, can you identify the type of helicopter by the instrument panel that we could see in this portion of video?

A. Your Honour, it is the Gazelle-type helicopter, and every corps commander had one such helicopter which was used by the corps commander.

Q. And when you say "corps commander," are these corps commanders of the Yugoslav People's Army?

A. All corps commanders had at their disposal a helicopter, and a pilot was allotted for that helicopter from the air force to serve for the needs of the corps commander of the ground forces.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 127, I see from your statement that you are no longer an officer, you are no longer a member of the army. Tell me, when did you leave the Army of Republika Srpska? ²⁴⁶⁴³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁴⁴

A. Regarding when I left the Army of Republika Srpska, I was there throughout the time of the war, partly after the war. I lived through all of that. As for the actual date when I left, in view of the fact that it relates to my personal career, could I not answer that question.

Q. Well, tell us roughly. What year?

A. From the moral standpoint, the ethical standpoint, I was a member of the army and I performed all assignments given to me and even after the bombing by NATO forces in 1999.

Q. So until 1999, you were in the Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. I was -- I remained in the Army of Yugoslavia right up until the point when there was the slightest hope of some sort of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, today Yugoslavia is dead.

Q. But I'm asking you, when did you abandon the Army of Republika Srpska? You were there throughout the war. I'm asking you a simple question.

A. I've given you an answer. I was a member even after the NATO airstrikes.

JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Okay. We're in open session. ²⁴⁶⁴⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said you were an atheist, and in terms of ethnicity, what are you? Tell me, please.

A. As far as my ethnicity or nationality, for a long time, according to my papers, I was a Muslim. But in every real sense, I was a Yugoslav and my homeland was the former Yugoslavia, and remained my homeland.

Q. All right. I'm glad to see you here, because even as a Muslim in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, during the war you remained first in the Army of Yugoslavia and then in the Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. The fact that I was a Muslim did not affect my decision to stay in any way. I always supported those who supported Yugoslavia in any form. But the most honest part of it was Yugoslavia for everyone. Unfortunately, I have to say in hindsight that Yugoslavia does not exist and nobody gave any thought to the people who felt as real Yugoslavs.

Q. Well, those who broke up Yugoslavia didn't give any thought to these people, not those who wanted to preserve it. But please, tell me: Was there anyone in all those years that you spent first in the JNA, then in the Army of Republika Srpska, was there anyone who forced you from one army to another?

A. Excuse me. Could you define "forcing" and "from one army to another"; what does that mean?

Q. Did anyone force you into the Army of Republika Srpska?

A. As far as that is concerned, we could say that it was such a combination of circumstances that made me stay in the Army of Republika ²⁴⁶⁴⁹ Srpska as a member of the 30th Personnel Centre. Most of those who left the then-JNA - and I'm now speaking of Muslims and Croats - I stayed, for instance, I remained, hoping that sooner or later some sort of Yugoslavia will prevail, a homeland for everyone. But I regret to say once again it doesn't exist any more.

Q. I regret that too.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand we are in open session. Is that right, Mr. May? That's all I wanted to find out.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On page 3, paragraph 2, you say that since you were not a Serb, you were excluded from the majority of sensitive activities performed by your unit. And you say that Serbs treated you with suspicion. Is that what you said?

A. Your Honour, in view of the fact that I did not clearly belong to the Serb people in terms of ethnicity, I was not fit for performing special tasks, confidential tasks, everything that is subject to some sort of confidentiality and protection, although technically speaking I executed all my orders, and appearing here I'm only talking about things that I have seen myself.

Q. Tell me, regarding what I quoted from your statement, namely that you were excluded from most sensitive activities of your unit, are you talking about the period when you were still an officer of the JNA or the period when you became an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska?

A. I am talking about the period when I -- not became an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska, because we wore insignia of that army but I ²⁴⁶⁵⁰ have to tell you once again, we were members of the Army of Yugoslavia.

[redacted]

MR. GROOME: Objection.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Into private session.

MR. GROOME: [Microphone not activated]

[Private session]

[redacted]

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I always stick to the rules, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said you had no access to certain affairs in your unit and you were assigned to various administrative duties in the barracks; correct?

A. Well, this term "administrative duties" is not quite accurate. Those are auxiliary duties, support duties, except -- apart from the basic duties of the unit, every member has auxiliary duties related to quartermaster issues and various other things every officer must know and do. But as for the 30th Personnel Centre, I don't know what the --

Q. You will answer that question when I ask it. And we'll take explanations in the order which I see fit. So please just answer my questions.

You claim, however --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lest we have to go into closed session again, Mr. May, on page 3, paragraph 2, this witness even quotes the date when he was already an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska, when he said that he was transferred to the place where he was transferred in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that he was appointed to a position within the unit whose number I will not read, and that unit had the highest ranking in terms of secrecy -- that position had the highest ranking in terms of ²⁴⁶⁵³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁵⁴ secrecy and confidentiality. You can read exactly what this position was.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Was there any position within that unit that you could have possibly been appointed to and that involved more confidentiality and secrecy? If you want us to move into closed session --

JUDGE MAY: Private session again.

[Private Session]

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As far as I can see, from your statement, Mr. 127, without mentioning any ranks, because I don't want to be accused of identifying you by doing so, but during the period of time that you're testifying about, from 1991 to 1997, in fact, there were four ranks which you received; is that right?

A. I was given four ranks. They were regular promotions which I ²⁴⁶⁵⁸ received. So -- do I have the floor? Yes. These were ranks, captain in 1994, for example, or in 1997 was the next rank up the ladder. They were regular promotions which did not have any great bearing on the fact that actually I had done anything extra to deserve those promotions. Otherwise, they would have been extraordinary promotions.

Q. All right. Now, are you saying that during that period of time, covering six years, you moved up the ranks, four ranks, in fact, because somebody was discriminated, like yourself, as you say? So you received four high ranks and yet you were somebody who was not greatly trusted. You received four ranks, went up the ladder four times during those years?

JUDGE MAY: I don't think the witness has claimed that he was subject to discrimination. That was your expression.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness said that in view of the fact that he wasn't a Serb, he was excluded from most of the sensitive activities. Much of the more sensitive activity. And we have observed, therefore, on the basis of his own statements and the facts presented here for him and by him, that over a period of six years he received six ranks or six promotions -- four promotions. I'm sorry, four ranks and promotions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And my question is the following: As for a time you were a JNA officer, usually how long do you have to spend in one rank to be promoted to a higher rank? For example, a lieutenant, how long does he have to stay in the rank of lieutenant before he becomes a captain or from captain ²⁴⁶⁵⁹ move on to captain first class? The public is listening to you. There are many soldiers in the audience and they know about all this.

A. Well, what you say is correct. But it wasn't four ranks up the ladder within a space of six years. When an officer completes military academy - we're talking about regular promotions - when he becomes an officer, it depends on how long his training in the military academy lasted --

JUDGE MAY: Stop interrupting. Yes, go on.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was saying, after the first year, he receives a regular rank of lieutenant; having spent three years of service, he becomes a captain; after the next three years, he becomes captain first class. So they weren't four ranks; it was the regular system moving up the ladder of ranks, nothing special.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, how many years do you have to add up three plus three plus three? How many years go by from captain to major? Do you mean to say that after every three years you go up automatically?

A. Well, you have to spend three to five years working in a single rank. That was the law. And as far as promotions are concerned, let me state at the outset that this had no bearing -- or rather, they were regular promotions. Had there been any extraordinary promotions, then it would have said so in the document: So and so is being extraordinarily promoted.

Q. But you just said you had to spend between three and five years ²⁴⁶⁶⁰ working in one rank, and you received all these ranks within the space of just six years. Therefore, I can't see from what I'm looking at here that there was -- you were hampered in any way in your military promotions, but quite the reverse seems to have taken place. In fact, you moved up the ranks very speedily; isn't that right, Mr. 127?

A. As far as moving up the ranks is concerned, let me state again that this was a normal legal way in which this happened. And all officers from my particular generation would receive their ranks regularly at the same time, of a generation. So this was not any special merit on my part. It was just my generation being moved up the ranks. For example, the class of 1939 would this year gain the rank of such and such, and you can look at that if you look at the date when I graduated from the military academy.

Q. Mr. 127, as we can see here that the reverse took place, that you moved up the ranks very speedily, tell me now, why are you claiming that you were subjected to problems or subjected to lack of trust because you were not a Serb? Why are you claiming that now?

A. I'm telling you what I experienced, and I know what I went through myself; as for this wariness that people had towards me and other things too, the assignment of certain duties, carrying them out, additional duties such as being duty officer in a barracks, and things like that in addition to our regular job, what we had been trained and educated to do.

Q. Well, Mr. 127, I'm not a professional soldier. I was a reserve officer. And all officers have to perform their -- the work of a duty officer in barracks, for example, along the regular lines of duty, except ²⁴⁶⁶¹ for the chief of staff and commander. Is there any other soldier that does not at one time or another have duty work to perform in a barracks?

JUDGE MAY: No. No question in this, mere statement. We will adjourn now, 20 minutes, and we'll continue thereafter.

--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have an hour and 50 minutes left with this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood it, Mr. May, that I have to the end of the day, in view of the fact that the witness testified quite some time before the break and this morning, almost an hour this morning and before we adjourned.

JUDGE MAY: We considered that, and the time available for you, is, as I say, 1 hour, 50 minutes. That's allowing for the time which he had with the Prosecution.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll do my best to cover the ground as quickly as possible, but it seems to me that the time for examination-in-chief was longer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 127, in your statement you quoted the names - and I'm not going to read the names out, so we don't have to move into private session - but you stated the names, first and last names, of all your superiors, commanding officers, at the time when you were in the JNA; is that right?

A. Your Honours, that is correct. That is the pre-war chain of command for me onwards. ²⁴⁶⁶²

Q. All right. We can see from that, without reading the name, that the commander of your company was a Croat; is that right?

A. Yes, that is correct. And I'm talking about the times of the JNA, when everybody was in the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. And the battalion commander was a Muslim, is that right, too?

A. Your Honours, yes, that is correct. But as I say, we're talking about peacetime establishment.

Q. And the commander of the 5th Corps of the RViPVO was a Croat; is that right? The air force and air defence commander?

A. Yes, that is correct. But you skipped over a person in the chain of command who was a Serb. Let's not skip people.

Q. All right. So apart from one man - and that's what I was getting to, and I don't want to read out that man's name, who was a Serb - all your other superior officers belonged to other ethnicities; isn't that right?

A. In view of the period of time we're talking about, this wasn't essential. It didn't matter who was what, because we're talking about the times of the Yugoslav People's Army, where nobody paid attention to names but to capability and ability.

Q. All right. Yes. Now, did you have any problems at that time for not being a Serb?

A. At that time, as I say, during the time of the Yugoslav People's Army, I had no problems. I was a happy man. I loved my homeland, my country, a country for one and all, for all the nationalities or ethnic groups living within it. ²⁴⁶⁶³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁶⁴

Q. On page 2, paragraph 3, when you speak about the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina, you state that all supersonic planes of the MiG type were displaced from Bosnia-Herzegovina, were moved out of there.

A. Yes, that is correct, that those types of planes were transferred to Yugoslavia, the MiG jets.

Q. From the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, why do you say almost all of them, almost all MiG jets? I assume you know that not a single MiG stayed on in Republika Srpska, was left there.

A. That is correct, not a single MiG, either 21 or 29-type jet, was left in the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. All right. Then we've established that. Now, on that same page, in that same paragraph, you go on to say that the light planes of Yugoslavia, during the no-fly zone, violated the air space above Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. I'm sorry, but could you repeat that? You said light planes?

Q. Well, on that same page, same paragraph, you say that the planes, light planes of the Army of Yugoslavia in 1995, during the no-fly zone period, violated the air space above Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

A. We're talking about light aircraft which violated the air space above Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.

Q. Well, tell me, which light aircraft were these?

A. They were non-combat aircraft.

Q. That's sufficient. That's enough. I've heard what I need. So it was non-combat planes, non-combat aircraft. And they did not open fire on any territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. ²⁴⁶⁶⁵

A. I wasn't able to see whether they went into action and targeted anything or whether they were just reconnoitring. Reconnoitring and reconnaissance is also part of combat operations if you're flying over a territory. And if a plane takes off, for example, from an airport outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, you are in fact violating the air space of Bosnia-Herzegovina flying over it, or Republika Srpska. And if the plane goes back and lands from the spot he took off, then that's it. And in view of the speed and all the rest of it, you can determine which type of aircraft was used.

Q. But you said non-combat aircraft. Now, how many violations, how many instances of this kind of violation took place?

A. Well, I don't know but it happened from time to time.

Q. Now, tell me, why are you mentioning that at all? If some non-combat aircraft on the border regions violated the no-fly zone along the edges, the ridges, is that some kind of criminal activity of its own, in its own, or not?

A. At that point in time, I was not able to establish the assignment, what the purpose of the flight in question was, the flyovers, whether they were engaged in any combat activity, whether it was reconnaissance or whatever and -- or whether it was a wholly non-combat flight taking place, as you yourself say.

Q. Now, as you're talking about 1995 and violations of the air space above Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you happen to know of any violations in 1995, not only of the air space but also general violations from some other party or side, that is to say, not coming from Yugoslavia? Did anything ²⁴⁶⁶⁶ of that kind take place?

A. Could you be more specific, explain what you mean for me to be able to speak about concrete violations about -- from another side.

Q. All right. I assume you've heard of the village of Svodna near Prijedor. It's not far from Banja Luka either, is it?

A. That's right.

Q. Now, do you remember that it was precisely in 1995 that due to the effects of the MiG planes belonging to the Croatian air force, that a number of people were killed? They were killed on the spot, and everybody from the village of Slavno Polje Vrginmost had to -- I'm sure you would have known that and seen it; isn't that right?

A. The violation of air space from the territory of the Republic of Croatia, that also did exist, but I didn't testify about that.

Q. Well, it doesn't matter whether you spoke of it or not. I'm asking you a question. Were there combat operations and did -- were people killed? And I quoted the example of the village of Svodna, right next to Prijedor, when people were killed, because the Croatian air force went into operation there. Do you know about that?

A. This information as to whether or how many people were killed, I really can't say. Now, that there were violations of the air space, that is correct.

Q. Well, do you know that they went into operation and targeted targets, these aircraft, Croatian aircraft targeted places?

A. Well, every combat flight, whether fire is opened on targets or whether control, supervision, and reconnoitring is going on, each flight ²⁴⁶⁶⁷ is a combat flight and each flight is seen to be a violation of the air space if it takes place.

Q. Yes. But this wasn't only a violation of the air space, was it? It was opening fire on targets and the killing of people as a result. And I assume that not even according to your own criteria is that the same thing. Isn't that right?

A. Well, I said that the air force did enter into combat. Now, whether there was anybody who was killed, I really can't say.

Q. Do you know who was in command of the Croatian air force in 1995?

A. Who was in command in those days? Well, logically, it must have been one of the commanders who used to be in the former JNA. Now, who exactly it was, I don't know.

Q. You don't know that Imre Agotic, a general, was in command? Just say "I know" or "I don't know."

A. I know about Imre Agotic. He was commander and he was a highly appreciated officer of the Croatian army, very highly thought of. I even heard that he was close to the former president, Franjo Tudjman.

Q. And do you know that he issued orders for the engagement of the planes of the Croatian air force that I referred to?

A. A logical consequence of everything. That is, if he was the commander, then he probably issued orders. But as I was saying, I can't talk about that. I could only perhaps notice violations of the air space. But it's only logical to suppose that orders were issued by a commander. Now, whether it is Imre Agotic or some other officer, I can't say.

Q. In August 1995, immediately after this Croatian operation, were ²⁴⁶⁶⁸ you still working at your position?

A. In 1995?

Q. Yes, immediately after the Operation Storm.

A. As I was saying, very few data were accessible, but what I know, I will say.

Q. Do you know that there were operations against the refugee column when a number of civilians were dismembered in the immediate vicinity of Bosanski Petrovac, a number of civilians? I assume you know the area. They were dismembered by bombs.

A. At that time, I was in Banja Luka. But people who were working with me at the time, who were on duty, I heard from them that there had been certain operations. Now, what the consequences were, I really didn't see them.

Q. You don't know that they targeted the refugee column.

A. I did hear of it. But as I was saying, I didn't see it.

Q. And did you hear of the targeting of Croatian planes on ambulances and a hospital close to Dragotina village on the border between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. I heard quite -- of a about -- I heard about a number of events during the withdrawal of the army, the Serbian army of Krajina, the withdrawal of the refugees. And to be quite frank, it wasn't nice to look at for anyone, let me make myself quite clear. And we can only talk about what actually happened. In 1995, it was dreadful to watch those refugee columns because every mother cries for her children.

Q. I'm asking you whether you are aware of Croatian action, air force ²⁴⁶⁶⁹ action against those refugee columns, including Red Cross, ambulances, and hospitals.

A. I heard about it from other people, that the air force did operate, but in those days I was not operationally involved, and I cannot claim that this happened. I only heard it from others.

Q. Do you know that in 1994 the Croatian air force also shelled a Serbian village, Batusa, near Vrginmost, in the immediate vicinity of the border with Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you remember that event? Because it was in an area which you must have had access to.

A. Yes. There were violations of air space in Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Croatian air farce.

Q. But do you know, as it was shelled, bombed, by the air force, this Serbian village, that a Croatian pilot, Peric [phoen], piloted that plane who was shot down immediately after that operation, near Dubo Selo [phoen]?

A. I don't know the specific details about certain operations on the part of the Croatian army. I didn't have access or insight. As regards violations of the air space, however, and operations by the air force, because planes won't fly for nothing; as soon as they violate the air space, it means that they did engage. But I can't assert anything about the consequences of those engagements.

Q. Is it beyond dispute that all those actions took place in the no-fly zone?

A. The no-fly zone, as we know, was in force throughout. Now, as I was saying, regarding what happened, if there were violations, were there ²⁴⁶⁷⁰ counteractions by units within the operation of no-fly zones, I don't know.

Q. Are you aware, for instance -- so what I'm going to ask you now, that in 1991 and the SFRY and the JNA were still in existence, following orders by General Jurevic, who was then the commander -- and he was a Croat, of course. You remember that.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. In order to deblock the Mekusa [phoen] and Glogovica barracks near Karlovac, two planes took off from the Bihac airport in 1991. Do you remember that, two MiG planes?

A. You're talking about the Karlovac barracks blockade.

Q. Yes. To deblock the barracks by order of General Jurevic, two MiG planes took off from the Bihac airport, to deblock these two barracks.

A. Yes. There was a lot of activity from the Bihac airport in those days.

Q. And it is known that one of those planes, and not by error, opened fire on the barracks itself, when several JNA soldiers were killed, and a second one opened fire on paramilitary forces that were holding the barracks under siege. Do you remember that?

A. As I was saying, in that period I had no control. I know that there was such activities, that there was opening fire on one's own forces. I am saying that in those days whether it was an intentional error or an error by General Jurevic, I cannot establish at this point in time.

JUDGE MAY: I've stopped your microphone because there are ²⁴⁶⁷¹ difficulties caused by your overlapping, both the witness and the accused cross-examining.

Witness B-127, could you bear this in mind, please: Because we have this special microphone for you and voice distortion, it's most important that you don't reply to any question until it's over. So would you keep an eye on the microphone in front of the accused. And when the light is off, start replying.

And Mr. Milosevic, would you bear in mind the need for a pause after the questions.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you remember that this MiG landed in Zagreb and it was piloted by a JNA pilot, a Croat?

A. I know of another case when a plane fled from Ponikve and landed in Austria. It was a case of defection. Maybe this case occurred, but I'm not aware of it.

Q. About the case that you are aware of, one landed in Klagenfurt in Austria, is that right, one of those two planes?

A. Yes. But it took off from Ponikve.

Q. Is it true that the Austrian authorities handed over both the pilot and the plane to the Republic of Croatia?

A. That's quite possible. But I really don't know whether they handed them over to the Republic of Croatia, if not to the Army of Yugoslavia. I really don't know. ²⁴⁶⁷²

Q. I see. So you don't know. Let us then move on about what you do know. On page 2, paragraph 4, and page 3, paragraph 1, you say that after May 1992, upon the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia and Herzegovina, certain reports relating to the air force were submitted to the operations centre in Banja Luka, and from there on to the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, let us look, please, as instructions were presented here for command and cooperation between the air defences and air force support -- it says, "Approved commander by the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, Lieutenant General Ratko Mladic."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version of this document is 00876254, the title page -- and the English version, Mr. May, 03014149, title page. This is quite a lengthy document --

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- which Mr. Groome presented.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: The accused is referring to tab 4 of Exhibit 505.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Has the witness got the document? Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you have the document?

A. Yes.

Q. So it's a document approved by the Commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska, Lieutenant General Ratko Mladic in those days; is that ²⁴⁶⁷³ right?

A. Correct.

Q. That is what it says in the top left-hand corner. And the document was signed, as far as I can see, because some pages of my copy are empty and some are printed - so let me just find it - signed by chief of staff, I assume, of the PVO of the Army of Republika Srpska, Jovan Maric. And we can see here also the stamp of the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please go back to the first page. And let's take chapter 2, where it says, "A decision on the opening of fire on targets in the air space --" in brackets it says "VAP." Now, what does that mean? In the air space, doesn't it, VAP -- "is made by the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska for all PVO forces for the war zone of the VRS"; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Then it goes on to say, "In keeping with this decision, the commanders of the corps and the air force and anti-air defences of the Army of Republika Srpska shall through their operative centres issue individual orders for the opening of fire on identified enemy aircraft." Is that what it says?

A. Yes.

Q. And then it says, "Fire shall be opened without any special order from the operative centre of the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the operative centre of the air force and anti-air defences and ²⁴⁶⁷⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁷⁵ the operative centre of the corps on all targets in the area which attack elements of combat disposition and other facilities." Is that what it says, Mr. 127?

A. Yes.

Q. And then, "The distribution of targets between LA and RJ --" what does LA and RJ and PVO ARJ stand for? -- "directly through the operative centre of the corps of the Army of Republika Srpska."

A. It means what will be assigned to fighter aircraft, what to lighter aircraft, and to artillery units; which targets are assigned to which units.

Q. So directly through the operative centre of the PVO and the ViPVO, these stand for the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. Yes.

Q. And a ban on opening fire shall be issued by the operative centre of the ViPVO through the operative centres of the corps; is that right? In order to secure overflights by our aircraft, a ban on opening fire. Then second paragraph: "Coordinated action between VRS and PVO units," these all refer to units of the Army of Republika Srpska. And it goes on to say: "Where fighter aircraft are free to act --" this is again a reference to the Army of Republika Srpska, isn't it, Mr. 127? Then in item 2, halfway down, you see, "Coordination between Vojin elements shall be effected through the system of surveillance, warning and guidance for the purpose of control of the air space of Republika Srpska and approaches to it."

A. Yes. Within the unified system of control of the air space. ²⁴⁶⁷⁶

Q. The air space of Republika Srpska and approaches to it; correct? And then it goes on to discuss the situation in the air space and so on and so forth, and it keeps referring to the Army of Republika Srpska.

And then you have item 3, which you discussed -- referred to in your diagram, about some alleged connection with the Army of Yugoslavia. And then subheading 3, "Coordinated action between the air force and air defence and the air force and air defence of the Yugoslav army and that of the Army of Serbian Krajina." This item 3 is the shortest one and it discusses exclusively the exchange of information. Is that correct, Mr. 127?

A. Let me tell you this: The task of those units is also to collect information and to provide it to interested parties, users. Just a moment. The task of those units is to detect and identify aircraft in air space, and this information is to be provided to users, be it fighter aviation or rocket, that is, missile units of the air defence centre. So that is their combat assignment.

Q. Is it clear that only this item 3, related to the exchange of information, deals with the exchange of information with certain elements who also collect information for the Army of Yugoslavia, that is, their counterpart, which also collects information for the Army of Yugoslavia and exchanges it?

A. This is clearly defined here. This instruction defines also a coordinated action with the units of Army of Yugoslavia and the units which have the same task for the air space of the Army of Yugoslavia. ²⁴⁶⁷⁷

Q. They perform the task of air surveillance, warning, and guidance, that is, radar service and collection of information; correct?

A. That is a combat assignment too.

Q. But their only task is to act in coordination with the Army of Yugoslavia, limited to exchanging information about the air space.

A. It says precisely, "Exchange of information, specifying the level of exchange with units located both within the Army of Yugoslavia and in the Serbian Army of Krajina."

Q. So the nature of these special units is exclusively to collect and exchange information; correct or not?

A. I'm telling you, this is the task of one unit within the army, to collect information.

Please let me finish. Once again, to identify targets, to see whether it's hostile or our own target, to provide information to the unit which will intervene, depending on the decision of the commander, whether to shoot down the plane or to make it land, to alert the civilian population to air danger. All this information is received from these units, and it is within their combat assignments to inform all interested parties, users of information.

Q. Let us look for a moment at this diagram that you provided. I don't suppose you will put it on the ELMO.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this was dealt with in closed session.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll go into closed session, paragraph 3.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May -- ²⁴⁶⁷⁸

JUDGE MAY: I mean, tab 3. Do you want to ask any questions about this?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing for private session. I only wanted to point out the following --

JUDGE MAY: No.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only link --

JUDGE MAY: We dealt with it in private session, so we will go into private session.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, for the record, tab 3 is under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have a copy in front of him.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁴⁶⁷⁹ Page 24679 - redacted - private session

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[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session. I apologise.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So since we established that this item 3, dealing with the exchange of information with the Army of Yugoslavia, effected through radio relay links about the situation in air space, serving the purpose of air space protection, is the only type of collaboration indicated here. I would now like to point out to chapter 5 of this same instruction, dealing with the application and specification of this instruction, application and elaboration of instructions. In your version, it's page 8, chapter 8, application and elaboration of the instructions. Sentence number 2 -- I can actually read the entire paragraph. "Commands of the corps and the air force and air defence --" air force and air defence meaning those of Republika Srpska; correct? Correct, Mr. 127?

A. Yes.

Q. Based on this instruction, they will elaborate on and link up PVO forces in their zone of responsibility.

And now the main sentence: "The command of the air defence and air force shall analyse all matters from chapter 2, item 3 of the ²⁴⁶⁸¹ instructions with the air force and air defence command of the Army of Yugoslavia." So that is the type of links from item 3 that I just quoted to you, and there is no other coordinated action except in terms of exchanging information. Isn't that clear from this?

A. I can tell you that we can see clearly from these instructions that two systems are acting in coordination; the systems of air defence in Republika Srpska and the one in Yugoslavia, and I only specified at which level it was done.

Q. Certainly, because in chapter 2, item 3 is the only one that deals with this. And item 3 relates only to exchange of information. Whereas, item 5 says that they --

JUDGE MAY: You're wasting time going over this again. There's a reference here which the accused didn't refer to. Wait a moment. Let's clarify something. To the air force command of the Serb Republic of Krajina. What was that, Witness B-127, and why was that involved in this document?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Could you say that again, the commander --

JUDGE MAY: Just read item 5, the first paragraph. And there's a reference to the air force command of the Serbian Republic of Krajina. I wanted to know how that fits into the picture.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That fits in the picture in the following way: The forces and units in Yugoslavia had cooperation established with them and so did the forces and units in the Serbian Army of Krajina. And these instructions regulate this cooperation. ²⁴⁶⁸²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it clear that this cooperation deals only with matters from item 3 of chapter 2 of these instructions? That's what it says under the heading "Application and elaboration."

A. That's what it says.

Q. And in item 3 of chapter 2, we see that it only deals with exchange of information; is that correct, Mr. 127? It deals with nothing else?

JUDGE MAY: We've been through that. We can read. And also, bear in mind don't misrepresent what the witness has said about it. Yes. Let's go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm not misquoting the witness. I'm just quoting the text. It says, "Matters from item 3, chapter 2 shall be harmonised with both parties," whereas item 3, chapter 2 deals only with exchange of information. That's what I wanted us to establish, and there's nothing more to establish, because that is the document presented by Mr. Groome here.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now, tell me, please: Since Mr. Groome asked you whether we had had that type of links and exchange of information with other countries -- do you remember that question in chief? You said we didn't; correct?

A. What I was asked was whether we had any links with some neighbouring countries like Hungary. And I said it was out of the question for military surveillance data to be handed over to Hungary. ²⁴⁶⁸³ That would have been illogical. The information exchanged could only have been about civilian aviation and civilian air traffic control, and that is regulated by international rules.

Q. Mr. 127, is it normal for friendly countries to exchange this type of information?

Mr. Groome asked you whether we had exchanged this type of information with any other country.

A. It was a logical consequence of this to be mutually linked within Yugoslavia, but it would have been illogical to include Hungary or some other country into this system, or Croatia for that matter. And surveillance data is protected, confidential data when your aircraft are taking off. This is a very short period of time allowed for reaction. It's very important.

Q. Very well. Mr. Groome asked you if we exchanged this sort of information with any other country. Do you know as an officer that the countries around us were either members of the Soviet bloc or members of NATO? So we could not have possibly exchanged this type of information with any of these.

A. Combat information collected through surveillance about movements within the air space is something that cannot possibly be exchanged. What we did exchange was data related to air traffic control. And to what extent a certain country is friendly or not and through what channels that goes, I really don't know.

Q. But as an officer you know that we were surrounded by countries which were either members of the Soviet bloc or members of NATO, and we ²⁴⁶⁸⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁸⁵ couldn't exchange this information with them, could we? And specifically here we are dealing with friendly armies, speaking about the Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. This is your opinion, as I said. And as a matter of general principle, I can tell you again that I still feel as a Yugoslav officer.

Q. That is laudable. But tell me, do you possess a single report where it says -- a report of the Army of Republika Srpska where it states that it should be forwarded to the Army of Yugoslavia in Belgrade?

A. I don't possess any such reports, because this link established between these two levels of command we discussed earlier was automatic.

Q. You mean that the radar pictures were visible on both sides?

A. Yes. And who sent reports to whom in this job, I don't know. I don't have these reports with me.

But let me come back to your previous question. I was not in a position to see everything.

Q. I'm only asking you about the things that you know. Tell me, then: Were any reports in fact sent? I assume you know that they were sent from your unit to the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. That's right, isn't it?

A. Well, yes, the reports are of course sent on to the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. All right. Fine. Tell me this now, please: On page 3, paragraph 3, in speaking about the increased tensions in the area of Banja Luka, you mention units of the SOS and the Wolves from Vucjak; isn't that right? Is that right? ²⁴⁶⁸⁶

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, is it true that the members of that SOS unit were exclusively people from Banja Luka and the surrounding parts? That's right, isn't it?

A. They were men who were along the battlefront in Western Slavonia or Kordun, and at one point in time they left their basic unit and arrived in Banja Luka to take over the authority there, control there.

Q. Well, these people who took over control, were they locals from the region, in fact?

A. Mostly, yes. I didn't -- actually, the ones I knew were from Banja Luka and the surrounding parts. But to be quite frank, I wasn't able to identify them all myself, because it was a situation of crisis and it lasted for quite some time, and afterwards it was resolved by establishing cooperation between General Talic and the people who had a group there.

Q. All right. Is it true that without exception members of those Wolves from Vucjak were also people who were locals, originated from the area? Is that right?

A. Well, it was a unit by Prnjavor and they were mostly people from the area, people who had undergone training in Knin while the Yugoslav People's Army was still in existence. And they would tell me, "We went to Captain Dragan," and I talked to these people personally, just like I'm talking to you here and now.

Q. My question was: Were they locals from the area?

A. Yes, they were -- they did originate from the area. ²⁴⁶⁸⁷

Q. All right. Let's move on. We have to be more expeditious. Is it true - and you said something about this during your examination-in-chief - that before May 1992 they took control of the television transmitter near Lisina? Is that right, in Lisina?

A. Yes, that was before May 1992, and they did take control, and it was a unit of the Wolves from Vucjak, members of that unit arrived. They arrived from Knin too. And during that period of time, the television channel of Television Sarajevo was turned --

Q. That's what I wanted to know. And did a JNA officer - and I'm not going to read out his name, because Mr. May might tell me that this is linked to your identification or disclosing your identity, and his name isn't important - but the officer in question contacted them; isn't that right? Because he considered those people to be a danger to the unit. Is that right? That's what you said.

A. Well, it's not true that at that time, when the Yugoslav People's Army was still in existence, that those types of paramilitary, regardless of what side they were coming from. And let me say I considered them to be the paramilitary, whether they came from Croatia or whether it was a Serb paramilitary or Muslim paramilitary, and that's my position and it remains such.

Q. Is it true that he informed General Uzelac about the existence of a paramilitary unit?

A. He informed the command of the Banja Luka Corps, and in cooperation with the units there was talk of having two planes take off. But they left the transmitter under threat, because they threatened to ²⁴⁶⁸⁸ have two planes take off from the Bihac airport. And after that - just a moment, please, may I be allowed to finish - after that, the Television Belgrade channel continued to transmit programmes.

Q. But I'm asking you something else. This officer informed Uzelac about this paramilitary unit, and the order arrived that they should be made to leave the transmitter on threat of having two planes take off to destroy them. And it was under this threat that they in fact relinquished control of the transmitter, and that's what you said during your examination-in-chief.

A. Yes. Because at the time, it was an irregular unit which did not belong to the Yugoslav People's Army. Just a minute. May I be allowed to finish, please. And the possibility existed that these people would either attack the barracks and quite simply take control, take over the weaponry, so it was for security reasons that this was resorted to.

Q. So the JNA unit, or rather, its command issued orders that those people be made to leave, and they did leave.

A. Yes, orders came from the 1st Banja Luka -- or rather, from the Banja Luka Corps, as it was called at the time.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this, please: The relationship between the JNA and paramilitaries was quite clear -- or rather, the JNA's attitude towards the paramilitaries can be seen from that; is that right?

A. Just a moment, please. This was one occurrence where the situation was clear-cut, and this was a direct act by the JNA and its attitude towards this form of organisation or self-organisation for military units. So this is probably a good example. ²⁴⁶⁸⁹

Q. All right. Well, you were present when this example was taking place, whereas you weren't present on this other occasion.

A. Yes, that was just one example. And I can't claim on the basis of one example how the JNA -- what position the JNA took with regard to the overall situation in the former Yugoslavia and vis-a-vis those units.

Q. Well, I'm not asking you to do that either. I'm asking you to testify about things which you can testify about and which you know about. Now, please, on page 3, paragraph 4, when you speak about the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina, tell me this, please: Is it true that all the officers of the JNA, as well as the soldiers from the barracks who were from Serbia or from Macedonia or from Montenegro, for that matter, that they were returned back to their own environment? Is that right?

A. In most of the cases, that was correct, yes. But those who were in Serbia proper came to Bosnia.

Q. You say those who were in Serbia came to Bosnia. All that is lacking is one part; those who were in Serbia but were from Bosnia originally went to Bosnia.

A. Yes, those people who were serving in Serbia received orders to go to Bosnia.

Q. Yes. But you don't say that it was the Serbs from Bosnia who had gone to do their service in Serbia returned to Bosnia.

A. No. Serbs born in Bosnia who at that time were serving in Serbia, had employment in Serbia, received orders to go to Bosnia.

Q. Let's just clarify this point, please. My question was this: Is ²⁴⁶⁹⁰ it correct that all the officers of the JNA, as well as soldiers from the barracks who were from Serbia, Macedonia, and Montenegro, were returned back to their own environments? Is that right?

A. Yes, they were returned back. In most cases just the odd individual stayed on.

Q. All right. Very well. Now, during the examination-in-chief, you said that during that critical period of time - and I made a note of this, of what you said - that the non-Serbs left the army and the JNA in that area would receive -- would take on a predominantly Serb character. And that's when the Army of Republika Srpska was established. Is that right?

A. Let me state that again. The Serbs who were in the JNA from Bosnia and originated from Bosnia, at the time the war broke out in Bosnia, stayed on in their units. It was the Croats and Muslims who left those units and this meant that to all intents and purposes these Serbs from Bosnia remained, and they belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. We'll get to the 30th Personnel Centre. You know that the Army of Republika Srpska was established at that time, and it was made up precisely of Serbs from Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's right, isn't it? And of course, there were some Muslims too, quite a large number of them, in fact, among the ranks of the Army of Republika Srpska, as well as some other nationalities and ethnic groups, but mostly they were Serbs. Is that right?

A. Largely Serbs. As to the rest, I don't think I can agree with you that there was a large number of these others, or rather, you can mean what figure you have in mind. You can say what figure you have in mind. ²⁴⁶⁹¹ I would put it this way: It was a smaller number that stayed on. Now, why those people stayed on, I don't know.

Q. Well, it's common knowledge that several thousand Muslims were in the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. I'm not aware of that figure.

Q. Well, if you haven't got the figure, there's no need for me to belabour the point.

Now, the officers and soldiers, for example, who were from Croatia, did they leave and go to join up with the Croatian armed forces? Did the Slovenes join up with the Slovene forces, the Macedonians with the Macedonian forces, and the majority of Muslim officers joined up with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? That's right, isn't it?

A. Well, everybody fled every which way, back to their own parts. But the essential point is that the Croats and Muslims left the units. They left the JNA and later the Army of Republika Srpska and went to join up with those other armies.

Q. All right. Now, as you say that some men from Bosnia who were doing their service in Serbia or Croatia, whichever, that they received orders to join up the Army of Republika Srpska. You said that. Now, give us an example. Where did you ever see anybody receive orders in Serbia or Montenegro to join the Army of Republika Srpska, for example? Give us an example. Give me the name of at least one officer who received orders to join up with the Army of Republika Srpska. Because we have established that the citizens of Yugoslavia, when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina, et cetera, and all the rest of it. ²⁴⁶⁹²

A. As far as that's concerned, I didn't have occasion to see their orders or appointments. But at the start of the war, the Serbs who were doing their military service in Serbia, who were serving in the army in Serbia, came to Bosnia. Now, following what orders, on the basis of which orders, I don't know. But I think everything done in the army is based on orders.

Q. Well, yes, because of salaries too and the medical insurance booklets and social insurance, when it comes to a single dinar, a single penny in the army, you have to work on orders. And that is why you had this 30th Centre in the first place. I assume you're aware of that, Mr. 127. Is that right or not?

A. As far as the 30th Personnel Centre goes, it wasn't only a matter of payment and salaries. You know that there were orders pursuant to which the payments were made, and ranks were verified and certified and all the rest of it, all the other procedure that has to be gone through for each and every officer.

Q. Well, we'll come to that. We'll find all that information in due course.

A. All I'm saying is that I know what I had in my own hands and what was written in those documents. But as I say, during the war I was never in Belgrade.

Q. All right. Did anybody issue you orders and order you to join up with the Army of Republika Srpska.

A. Up until then, I was a member, an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. Now, when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, I happened ²⁴⁶⁹³ to find myself in the region, and based on those circumstances, I had to act accordingly. To tell you quite frankly, I wasn't one of those officers who left the country at the sound of the first bullet being shot. And at any rate, we went through military training for peacetime and for wartime. And at that point in time, I still sincerely believed that Yugoslavia would be a state common to us all.

Q. Yes, I understand you on that score. You yourself said a moment ago that for the most part it was Muslims and Croats who stepped down from the JNA and left to join their own armies in their own republics. Did anybody order you to stay in the Army of Republika Srpska once it was established? You could have left, just like they had left; isn't that right?

A. At that time, I could have perhaps left. But as I say, this was risky business. It was dangerous too. And at that time, Banja Luka was closed off and even if I had wanted to leave, I was not able to do so. But let me state again: The reason I was there was as I explained it a moment ago.

Q. Yes, because you believed in Yugoslavia.

A. Yes. Just a moment, please. May I be allowed to finish? And I state here and now, if that country were to be formed again tomorrow, the same country that existed in those previous day, I wouldn't mind losing my life for it, laying down my life for it.

Q. Well, I believe you there. But let's just establish some facts here, the facts that you're testifying about and that are being looked at ²⁴⁶⁹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁶⁹⁵ here, investigated. They are taken to be some sort of evidence as to the involvement of Yugoslavia in the civil war in Bosnia. Tell me, please, Witness 127: You personally, during your officer's service in May 1992, when the Army of Republika Srpska was first formed, up until the point in time that you left the Army of Republika Srpska, during your work there, did you receive any orders from any officer of the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. I was in a unit, and I wasn't able to receive direct orders from an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia. That was the position that I was in.

Q. All right. Let me put it this way: Did you ever see any order issued to your unit or the command of your unit by any other command of the Army of Yugoslavia?

A. As to that, I was present when a commander - and I'm sure you know about this - that a telegram arrived from the Army of Yugoslavia. Sir, I wasn't able to control what the commander was doing and what was in the telegram, but if that was what was said, I'm telling you what I heard and saw myself.

Q. All right. Very well.

A. Let me just clear that point up. What was -- what were the contents of the telegram? Why was it sent? This was all confidential, I assume.

Q. Well, let's leave surmise and conjecture on your part to one side.

A. Well, they're not assumptions. I tell you what I saw with my very own eyes. ²⁴⁶⁹⁶

Q. You were not familiar with the contents of that telegram to be able to claim that it was any kind of order. If you don't know the contents, then there's no need to dwell on it any further. Just tell me, please: In view of the fact that there was a war on, do you know of any situation when there was a joint military operation in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina with members of the Army of Yugoslavia taking part, a unit of the Army of Yugoslavia taking part? Just tell us whether you know of any such operation or not.

A. Your Honour, in view of the level of the unit that I belonged to, I don't know that.

Q. But you claim that the existence of the 30th Personnel Centre was actually some sort of evidence that this was a single army. Is that what you're claiming?

A. I am telling you, regarding all the categories that qualify an officer, in those days it was a single army. That is what General Perisic himself said, after all. He was the chief of staff of the army from 1993 until 1998.

JUDGE MAY: When did he say that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He stated that when he was replaced in 1998, in a magazine called "Vreme."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Probably they will be calling General Perisic to testify here, so he will be able to tell us about that.

Is it true, Witness 127 -- you mentioned several times here the 30th Personnel Centre of the personnel administration of the Army of ²⁴⁶⁹⁷ Yugoslavia.

A. Yes, that is so. We have the appropriate documents and that fictitiously the place of service is indicated as Belgrade.

Q. Is there any army in the world over which a personnel administration has command? You're an educated military man.

A. No, there's no personal administration that commands, but it is a component part of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. But that 30th Personnel Centre, did you ever receive a single order having to do with any kind of military activity from the commander of that 30th Personnel Centre?

A. As regards the 30th Personnel Centre, Your Honour, it is a department, a personnel department of the personnel administration. There were no commanders there, except for these two men who signed those orders and -- however, all the people were either in Bosnia, and of the 40th Personnel Centre they were assigned to Croatia. We can't pretend that the 30th Personnel Centre is some kind of high-level organised structure.

Q. That is the whole point, Witness 127. Is it true that the 30th Personnel Centre -- before you, we had the former president of the FRY, Mr. Lilic, who explained it, because he knew it better than I did, that the 30th Personnel Centre was in one room and the 40th Personnel Centre in another.

JUDGE MAY: He cannot comment. He cannot comment on what some other witness has said. He doesn't know what Mr. Lilic has said and he can't comment on it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. ²⁴⁶⁹⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness 127, is it true that the 30th Personnel Centre is no more than an administrative department in the personnel administration for those officers who used to be members of the JNA up until the 6th of April, who were employed in the JNA, and whose acquired rights to personal income, social insurance, retirement benefits remained as a form of assistance for them and their families, for those of them who had gone to join the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina? Is that right or not?

A. As regards the 30th Personnel Centre, Your Honours, let me clear up once again. There was no one there. But the people who belonged to that 30th Personnel Centre and had all those rights in the Army of Yugoslavia, and even citizenship, were actually in Bosnia in the period from 1992 until 1995. There was a war going on in Bosnia. They were not over there -- I don't know how to put it -- taking it easy. It wasn't a hunting society.

Q. Witness 127, I appreciate your humour, but the Army of Republika Srpska was officially formed and it was comprised of people who were born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, local -- the local population of Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that right? Regardless of whether before that they had been members of the JNA or not.

A. Yes. But at the same time, they were members of the Army of Yugoslavia. They had appointments in the Army of Yugoslavia as well.

Q. Is it clear from all the documents that Mr. Groome has produced here and which you commented upon that all those documents relate ²⁴⁶⁹⁹ exclusively to social welfare and rights and entitlements, retirement, disability, health insurance of officers and their families, and acquired rights regarding salaries, which as material aid was granted from Yugoslavia to the Army of Republika Srpska?

A. That is true for most of the documents. But it is important to point out here that those -- they had acquired those rights in Bosnia, as we noted a moment ago, and they realised them in Belgrade.

Q. Entitlements, as you will remember, as that personnel centre existed for members of the JNA who ceased to be members of the JNA and became members of the Army of the Republika Srpska, after the 4th of May, 1992. So this was material aid to them and nothing more than that. Is that true or not?

A. You can define it in that way, but the procedure that existed while we were in the JNA and after that, in the Army of Republika Srpska, was identical regarding those matters, regarding material benefits. It applies to all officers in Nis or Novi Sad or anywhere else. Every officer must have an order on appointment and all these other documents.

Q. All those documents of the 30th Personnel Centre relate exclusively to personal incomes, their health card, booklet, retirement benefit, and social insurance; is that right or not?

A. In the order on appointment for what position he's being remunerated, and on that basis the description, his job description, his payments group, information on promotions.

Q. All of that, on the basis of the changes that occur in that individual's career by a decision of the competent bodies of the Army of ²⁴⁷⁰⁰ Republika Srpska. But over there they administratively recorded and personal incomes provided and social insurance for them. Is that right or not?

A. I'm telling you that is true, that everything was resolved over there. None of these matters were decided in Republika Srpska through the government of Mr. Radovan Karadzic. All these matters, as of the 6th of April onwards, until the end of the war, were decided through the Army of Yugoslavia and not through the legal government of Mr. Karadzic.

Q. The fact that you received material aid in connection with acquired rights acquired while you were members of the JNA, where your families lived, and they wouldn't have any sources of livelihood had you not received that type of aid; is that right or not?

A. It is material aid for the families. But up until the 6th of April, we had the JNA. And after the 6th of April, I'm saying, in accordance with all these documents, I was an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. You couldn't have been an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of Republika Srpska, as you had your own main staff and that main staff was not subordinated to the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, as you know full well. Are you aware that anyone within the Army of Yugoslavia could have given an order to a single officer to go to the Army of Republika Srpska? In other words, this was left to the personal decision of each individual officer.

A. Your Honour, I had an example, that is, a person I spoke to, who came from Belgrade. He was serving at Banjica, to be specific. And he ²⁴⁷⁰¹ said to a non-commissioned officer that he had been told in Belgrade that he had been transferred to Podgorica, and as a counter-service he said, "I'd prefer to spend six months in Bosnia but to remain in Belgrade, to serve for six months in Bosnia but to remain in Belgrade."

MR. MAY: We've had this evidence before. The witness described that.

We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes. And after that, you'll have half an hour left, Mr. Milosevic.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness 127, please give me brief answers, because I have very little time left and I'd like to cover as many questions as possible. Tell me, the fact that you personally through the 30th Personnel Centre were promoted to a higher rank, does that mean that someone in Belgrade had decided to promote you or was such a decision taken in the Army of Republika Srpska and only administratively processed in the 30th Personnel Centre precisely because of the amount of aid given in the form of personal income and social benefits? Is that right or not?

A. Your Honours -- Your Honour, I cannot answer this question with a yes or no. These were regular promotions. After a period of three years, I get the next rank. There were no decisions by the Army of Republika Srpska. I acquired the rank on the basis of the years of service. Once a three-year period expired, then I get the next rank. I got that document ²⁴⁷⁰² from Belgrade and from no one else.

Q. All these documents that you produced with the stamp of the Army of Republika Srpska speak to the opposite. But let us move on. Tell me, in the 30th Personnel Centre, were there official records for any other officer of the Army of Republika Srpska except for those who used to be members of the JNA?

A. First, let me respond to your remark. Judging by the dates on the documents which were doubled, first they were registered in Belgrade, then four or five months in later in Banja Luka. So the first date is in Belgrade, and then the documents from Banja Luka has the subsequent date. As for the other matter, other -- people who were in the Army of Republika Srpska and who had not served in the JNA before were not covered by the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. The fact that through this 30th Personnel Centre you realised your rights to health insurance, wartime service, et cetera, can this be interpreted as some sort of a commanding position of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia or simply as aid to a friendly army of which a number of officers had for years realised their rights in the JNA?

A. Let me say the following in answer to this question: Up until the 6th of April, I was an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. After the 6th of April, judging by the documents that I had - they are my personal documents and orders - I was an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia. Now, whether this was treated by someone as aid or not, I am talking about my own documents and on the basis of what they say.

Q. Very well. To focus on those documents. The decisions to ²⁴⁷⁰³ transfer officers of the Army of Republika Srpska, were they made in Belgrade or in the Army of Republika Srpska, in Banja Luka, for instance?

A. Your Honour, regarding transfers of members of the Army of Republika Srpska --

Q. I'm talking about transfers within the Army of Republika Srpska. Who made those decisions?

A. Within the Army of Republika Srpska, of course the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Thank you. No, but we referred to re-transfers. And my question regarded transfers within the Army of Republika Srpska. Tell me, the officers who used to be members of the JNA, were their records kept in the 30th Personnel Centre regarding changes in their status, payments groups, promotions, ranks, et cetera? Were these kept in the 30th administrative centre, only for them?

A. Your Honour, we are coming back to the same question: Who was covered by the 30th Personnel Centre? That is, the people who used to be employed in the JNA and who, upon the official withdrawal of the JNA --

JUDGE MAY: Could you tell us where the records were kept. That was the question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All matters were regulated in Belgrade.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Was there any decision that was made in Belgrade or the 30th Personnel Centre only received and registered such information? That's a personnel administration; that much we established. And this ²⁴⁷⁰⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁷⁰⁵ documentation was kept in one room and related solely to salary, health insurance, and social security.

A. But from this application by General Talic, to be awarded status group 4, you can see clearly that he's asking for salary group or status group 4. Until then he had 6.

Q. But it's only about salary, this type of aid that was extended. Tell me, please, this: How many officers from the Army of Republika Srpska who used to be in the JNA left their families, children, movable and immovable property in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

A. Could you specify? You mean non-Serbs or ...?

Q. I'm talking about people who joined the Army of Republika Srpska, they had families, these families have to live somehow, be they in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. Your Honour, it's true that certain members of the 30th Personnel Centre had families in the Army of Yugoslavia, and it is -- it was normal for these people to receive salaries if they were employed -- if their father or husband was employed in the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. But they were members of the Army of Republika Srpska and they were born in Bosnia.

A. That's true. They were members of the Army of Republika Srpska. They belonged also to the 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. So we're talking about only a personnel administration which cared for your pensionable service and your health insurance, and you addressed them concerning everything that had to do with your years of service; ²⁴⁷⁰⁶ right?

JUDGE MAY: You really have exhausted this topic. We have been round and round it. We've heard the evidence. We have the documentation in front of us, and it will be for us to make our minds up. There's no point arguing any further with the witness about it. If you'd like to move on to something else.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'm not arguing with the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it disputed, then, that this was only a form of material aid between two friendly --

JUDGE MAY: No. That will be a matter for us to determine in due course. It's not for the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well, Mr. May. I wanted to hear the witness's answer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is there any other document issuing orders on the part of the Army of Yugoslavia that does not relate to social entitlements and salary?

JUDGE MAY: No. We have been over this, so move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. You say -- in fact, do you know for how long was this aid extended? Until 2000 or 2001? Is that what you said?

A. Correct. And just a second. Your Honours, let us make one distinction. We ²⁴⁷⁰⁷ are talking about different forms of interruption in financing, sending of orders, and other administrative issues for different categories of persons. If we start from the bottom, contractual soldiers in the Army of Republika Srpska who belonged there, as far as these people are concerned, that was settled in 1994. As for civilians employed in the army who were later renamed workers in the Army of Republika Srpska, who also belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre, that was settled somewhere in 1997. And the last came officers.

Q. You mean in 2000 and 2001. That means that aid continued for all of seven years after the war; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is. But --

Q. Well, is it clear, then, that this aid had nothing to do with the war?

A. That aid started when the war broke out and lasted as long as it lasted.

Q. Well, the war ended in 1995, and for seven years after that you continued to receive that same aid and it did not serve the purpose of waging war. Is it clear that this has nothing to do with anything else except for salary and social security?

A. Your Honour, during the war, appointments were made according to wartime establishment and double credit was given for years of service; whereas, after the war, appointments of officers were made according to peacetime establishment and they also belonged to the same 30th Personnel Centre.

JUDGE MAY: In answer to the question as to the aid ending, the ²⁴⁷⁰⁸ aid continued for all of seven years after the war; is that correct? And you said, "Yes, it is." And you were going on to say something else when you were interrupted. Now, is there anything else you want to add to explain that? If you've answered the question, don't worry. That's fine. But if there's anything you want to add, then it's your opportunity to do so.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only wish to add this: On this point, I'd like to say these issues are very complex. You cannot answer yes or no, because when we discuss the war from 1992 until 1995, we have to bear in mind all those who were left behind us, and we are here probably to show the truth about what happened there, to prevent future generations to look for reasons and causes in --

JUDGE MAY: Let us just stick to the point, shall we? Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Anything more you want to ask?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is not disputed that this aid continued for seven years after the war, is it?

A. It is not disputed. All I'm telling you is that you interpret it as aid, and I see it as a member of the Army of Yugoslavia.

JUDGE MAY: What -- when did this 30th personnel detachment, when did that come to an end, its activities?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was interpreted to me as "detachment," in the military sense.

The 30th Personnel Centre, military post 3001, terminated its activities in 2000 and all the people who were born in Bosnia continued to ²⁴⁷⁰⁹ receive their salaries from then on from the Army of Republika Srpska. I mentioned earlier that contracted soldiers and other categories were taken off the payroll of the 30th Personnel Centre much earlier, in 1994 and 1997. I don't know why it was handled that way.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We'll hear that from another witness who is more qualified. But it is undisputed that until year 2000, and perhaps later, this aid continued, linked to some --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he's not talked about aid. It's you who uses that expression. All he's talking about is the activities of this personnel centre and the activities of officers who were fighting in Bosnia but paid for by the Army of Yugoslavia. That's the point. Now, what the significance of that is is for us to determine.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, as for the significance of all that, since the witness asserts that this link -- in fact, the existence of the 30th Personnel Centre is evidence that this was a single army and, according to him, it lasted until the year 2001.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That's undisputed; right?

A. It's not disputed.

Q. That means that that single army, if it were a single army, continued to exist until the NATO aggression. Did the Army of Republika Srpska take part in the defence against the NATO aggression?

A. To that question, I'll answer that as far as I know, there was no active participation of the Army of Republika Srpska in terms of extending ²⁴⁷¹⁰ any significant assistance to the Army of Yugoslavia. Apart from that, the Army of Republika Srpska was under the direct control of SFOR, and it is very difficult to imagine any assistance they would have been able to give at that moment. There was a number of inspections carried out by SFOR in all barracks throughout Republika Srpska.

Q. All right, Witness. But if it had been a single army and you know that there were activities against Yugoslavia from the territory of Republika Srpska, then if it had been a single army, it would have been acted against the aggressor, on the side of Yugoslavia. Isn't that evidence that --

JUDGE MAY: That's all a matter of argument. You can make those submissions to us. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Was there any unit of the Army of Republika Srpska even before the NATO aggression that was used in Kosovo and Metohija?

A. Speaking from my level, I don't know whether any unit was used in Kosovo. But as for Kosovo, in that period - I emphasise, in 1996 - first IFOR came and then SFOR, and the area was under the direct control of SFOR in that period.

Q. And how was your function different? Because you received your salaries from that personnel centre. How was it different? How was the situation different until 1995 from the period after 1995?

A. Until 1996, we had official IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska. And the only difference is that the period we spent in the war is the period for which we received double credit, in terms of pensionable ²⁴⁷¹¹ service. And later on we were a peacetime establishment, and later on we had official IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Your IDs are your own personal matter. I'm telling you that the function was the same from 1992 until 2001. A larger part of this period was after the war, and there was no difference in terms of salary and social entitlements.

JUDGE MAY: What is the question? There's no point telling him anything; you must ask him questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I did ask a question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What was the difference in the treatment and status of this 30th Personnel Centre before the war and after the war? It's obvious there's no difference.

A. That's not true. As far as the way we were treated is concerned, there is a difference. We were -- we received double credit for the wartime period and later on we received years of service one-for-one, as a peacetime formation.

Q. All right, Witness 127. You mentioned -- there is one document, and since my time is short, I cannot go through even a small part of the documents produced here, but let us take just a few. The application of General Galic for recognition of his entitlement to salary group 4, and the verification of his rank of colonel. This has to do with his retirement and social security entitlements. Take this paper. The last numbers are 831.

You answered in response to one question by Mr. Groome that ²⁴⁷¹² promotions were given in the Army of Yugoslavia.

THE REGISTRAR: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Prosecution to clarify, Exhibit 505.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have a copy.

MR. GROOME: It's tab 10 of that exhibit.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, look now. It discusses solely this: Correction of the calculation of entitlements and recognition of -- and then the second paragraph says: "It is evident from our personnel records and the decree of the president of Republika Srpska on his appointment that the above named has" and so on and so forth. So the general in question, General Galic, was appointed by a decree of the president of Republika Srpska, and he is registered herein and he was receiving this aid, in terms of salary and social security rights, and these security rights need to be settled, regulated.

THE ACCUSED: My microphone is out.

THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The microphone is on again.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it clear from this, because it says, "It is evident from our personnel records and the decree of the president of Republika Srpska," is it clear that he was appointed by the decree of the president of the Republika Srpska and no one in the Army of Yugoslavia? Is it clear or not? Tell me, please.

A. Your Honours, this document talks about promotion, in view of ²⁴⁷¹³ goals achieved and attainments of the general in question, in view of which he was promoted by the organs of the Army of Republika Srpska.

JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt you for one moment, please. Does the final paragraph of that document refer to taking all the necessary steps within your authority to confirm the said officer's rank to which he was promoted by the responsible superior officer in conformity with the applicable regulations of the Army of Yugoslavia? Does it say that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I meant to say. President Radovan Karadzic was able to promote somebody into the rank of general if he had a rank of colonel in the 30th Personnel Centre. But until it is verified, according to regulations of the Army of Yugoslavia, he remains a colonel for the purposes of the 30th Personnel Centre, and that is why this application is written.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it clear that the only matter in question here is that criteria applicable in the Army of Yugoslavia concerning salary, retirement entitlements, et cetera, need to be respected?

A. The only thing clear from this is that it has to be adjusted to the applicable regulations of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. Well, if that is so, let me ask you to come back to the first paragraph. They say they want an amendment of the decision of the military social insurance fund for his old-age pension to be calculated and the rank of lieutenant general. So it relates only to social security issues. They should be applied the same as in the Army of Yugoslavia.

A. This document, Your Honours, relates to a man who is already ²⁴⁷¹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁷¹⁵ retired. This is an application for him to receive a higher payment group, four instead of six. Probably until then he was in group six, and it has to do with his pension that he was receiving.

Q. So it's a social entitlement that is in question here, nothing else. Is that disputed?

A. Your Honour, this is about his pension because he wasn't receiving the correct remuneration. But it is settled in the Army of Yugoslavia.

JUDGE MAY: I think we've now exhausted this topic. You've got four minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, then, before I move on to another area, I should just like to draw your attention to the following: Dates are very important here. Now, it says 4/4081, that document, the regulation for Yugoslav citizenship, and this refers to 1997. That's the date. And it speaks about regulations on the basis of which citizens who do not enjoy Yugoslav citizenship can acquire it. And no differentiation is made between those who were members of the army from other citizens of Republika Srpska; is that quite clear?

A. Your Honour, may I take a look at that document, please, for me to be able to explain.

JUDGE MAY: I think we can read it all ourselves. Thank you very much.

Let's -- let's move on to something else, and then you can come to an end, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. ²⁴⁷¹⁶

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, is this next document quite clear, the one that relates to the command of the 503rd Motorised Brigade? And you yourself said that that was the Army of Republika Srpska, and the man's name was Dragan Obrenovic. And it gives us the date, which was the 1st --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the document. It's the same tab.

MR. GROOME: Tab 11.

JUDGE MAY: It's tab 11, in fact. Yes, quite right. It's the third document in.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm not going to enter into any details, because I haven't got time for that, but is the date the 1st of February, 1999? Is that right?

And then it goes on to determine a deputy for the 503rd Motorised Brigade, and the date there is the 29th of September, 1998; is that right?

A. All I have here is a document, 6839 are the final digits of the number of that document -- yes, that's right. It does refer to 1999, the 1st of February.

Q. The 1st of February, 1999. That's right. And a representative for the 503rd Motorised Brigade is the 29th of September, 1998; that's the date. So all these are documents after the war, and the procedure is the same as it was during the war and refers exclusively to social entitlements. Is that quite clear or not, Witness 127?

A. Your Honours, when the previous question was asked and when the accused referred to citizens, that it only referred to citizens who could ²⁴⁷¹⁷ regulate their nationality status in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - that's what that was about - that was a document received by the corps command. And there is no question there of it referring to citizens. All it refers to is members of the 30th Personnel Centre, stipulating that they will be able to solve their citizenship status within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Q. First of all, there is no obligation to grant anybody's citizenship, and the first paragraph of that letter states, "On the basis of the law governing Yugoslav citizenship," and then in brackets "Official Gazette of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, 1996, with the aim of realising these rights," et cetera, et cetera. So the explanation given is how pursuant to the law --

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go through this. Now, would you please answer the question shortly, Witness B-127. You've got two more questions left.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. If he's answered the question, in your opinion.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And we're talking about the year 1997. And explanations are provided and information as to how to acquire Yugoslav citizenship pursuant to the law stipulated in the Official Gazette of Yugoslavia, I don't assume that is in dispute, Witness 127.

JUDGE MAY: Two more questions, Mr. Milosevic, and hurry up with it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's very difficult for me to ²⁴⁷¹⁸ make a selection from all of this here, Mr. May. But I'll leave behind this pile of regulations and I'd just like to draw your attention to the pile of documents, in fact, where we can see that 1999, 1997, 1998, those years, that that's what it refers to and that there's nothing different there to what it was 1992 to 1995.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, let me just ask you one more thing in connection with what you said during your examination-in-chief, about the destruction of the mosque in Banja Luka between the 7th and 8th of May, 1993, in fact. I'm sure you'll remember that, having said that.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Now, do you know, are you aware, that it was from the top of the Republika Srpska, with Radovan Karadzic's signature, that after this sabotage an order was issued for the police to protect all religious sites in Banja Luka? Are you aware of that? Just give me a yes or no, please.

A. I don't know about that, but I do know that all the mosques in Banja Luka were destroyed.

Q. What about in Serbia? Was a single mosque destroyed in Serbia?

A. In my opinion, that did not happen. Nothing like that happened over there.

Q. All right. And when you spoke about the destruction of the Catholic church in Banja Luka in 1995, you said that this took place after the fall of Krajina and that it was destroyed as a form of revenge, revanchism is what you said. That's what you said during your examination-in-chief. ²⁴⁷¹⁹

A. Your Honours, it wasn't Krajina. I said with the fall of Western Slavonia. That's what I said. Several days after that was when the mining of the Catholic monastery took place when it was blown up next to Banja Luka. And that was a terrible thing too, regardless of what religious site we're talking about.

Q. Mr. 127, I'm not saying that it isn't a terrible thing. I'm just saying that you said that this was after the fall -- all right. Let me say Western Slavonia. You put me right there. I wrote down "Krajina," but all right, Western Slavonia, that this was a form of revanchism. Now, do you know how many dozens of thousands of people, refugees, at that time flowed into that area and passed through Banja Luka?

A. What you say, sir, is correct. However -- and that's an unfortunate circumstance. It's a sad thing that that happened, and I say that before this court. But do you know, sir, how many in Banja Luka, people at that same period of time, were expelled, expelled onto the streets?

JUDGE MAY: We must really bring this to an end. Yes. Have the amici any questions? And if you could, be as expeditious as possible, please.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll try and be expeditious. I'd like to ask the witness to explain to you several points in relation to the documents found in tab 12 and 14. One is dated the 28th of July, 1994; that's tab 12, a decision. And second is a document dated the 5th of October, 1994. So could we refer to those documents and put them before the witness. ²⁴⁷²⁰ Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] This first document bears the number in the English translation 0084022, and the next ERN number is for the B/C/S version. It is a document signed by Strbac, the commander, military commander from Zvornik. Have you got that? The 28th of July is the date.

A. The 28th of July, 1994? Yes, I do have it.

Q. Well, take a look at this certificate issued by the military authorities of the Army of Republika Srpska. That's right, isn't it? That's the certificate?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was signed by Strbac; right?

A. Yes, right.

Q. And this is a certificate certifying to the following, that Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, a resident of Zvornik, member of the Army of Republika Srpska, was wounded on the 28th of August, 1992. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And a description of the event follows and how he was injured. And he said, "On the 29th of August, 1992, in the region of Zaglovka [phoen] in Visegrad, during attack operations, he stepped on a buried anti-tank mine, which is how he was injured, Colonel [interpretation inaudible], and then it says the injury he incurred, the lumbar part of the spinal column and the heel." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So it is combat operations that are mentioned here; is that right? ²⁴⁷²¹

A. It says here that the person in question, lieutenant colonel, was wounded and that a certificate is being issued to that effect.

Q. Yes. But I'm interested in this section where it says "attack operations," "combat operations."

A. Yes.

Q. So this kind of document could not have been issued by anybody else but by the representatives of the military authorities, because nobody had information about combat operations of this kind at the cadre centre in Belgrade; right?

A. As far as the combat operations go and information about that, at the 30th Personnel Centre, in my own opinion - and let me say again that I was never there throughout the war for me to be able to speak about combat operations and what they had over there - but in my opinion, they did not have any.

Q. In other words, for anybody to enjoy rights pursuant to that, he would have to have been issued a certificate of this kind, on the basis of information they had. And this could only be issued by representatives of the powers that be in Republika Srpska. It wasn't something that the people had who were working in the Army of Yugoslavia. They did not dispose of any such information; right?

A. Just a moment, please. This is a certificate, which is being issued for the member of the army of the republic to enjoy certain rights. So the possibility exists that this certificate could directly be used in Republika Srpska. I don't know who this was addressed to or sent to, whether to the 30th Personnel Centre or to some municipality or the like ²⁴⁷²² for the allotment of an apartment or something like that.

Q. Yes, I understand all that. That's not what I'm asking you. But I'm interested in this second certificate of the 5th of October, performed assignments in the zone of combat operations. Now, the information on combat operations and wartime situations in Republika Srpska, this is something that only the authorities of Republika Srpska would know about; right?

A. Information about combat operations, yes, that was established exclusively in the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Thank you. I have just one more thing to ask you in respect of these documents, about the promotions.

A. Just a moment, please. May I be allowed to add something and to give examples? This was a specific form of a unit. May I clarify what "combat operation" means for -- as related to a unit? This is the activities of a unit, whether it uncovers any aircraft flying overhead, that is incorporated into combat assignment. It all comes under the heading of combat operation or assignment.

Q. Well, that will be up to Their Honours to decide. But I'm interested in the documents dating back to 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995, compiled by the personnel centre. Now, are those all matters which within the frameworks of the military service were subordinated to the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia at that time and the Supreme Commander? Did it all come under them?

A. I'm not receiving the interpretation.

JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... ²⁴⁷²³

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is my final question.

Q. The documents you spoke about, up until 1995, until the end of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they compiled and issued within the frameworks of military authorities under supervision and control of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia at that time and the Supreme Commander?

A. Well, it says as a header, "The general staff personnel administration," and what the document refers to. That is stated in the header. Whether it's an order of appointment, a job description, or whatever.

Q. Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Page 80 on line 15 of the transcript I believe records a translation error. It records you as saying the follow: Until 1996 we had official IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska. Can I ask you just to briefly state, prior to 1996, what identification did you have?

A. Your Honour, until 1996, it was the identification cards of the Yugoslav People's Army that were in force, which means throughout that period -- I'm not hearing anything. I can't hear anything.

Q. Can you hear me now? My next question to you is: Mr. Milosevic asked you about the circumstances surrounding how you came to be a witness here today. I'm going to ask that the following document be assigned an exhibit number. I'm going ask you to look at it. It is the English translation of a letter. I'm going to ask you: Do you recognise the content of this ²⁴⁷²⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁷²⁵ letter?

A. I do recognise the content of the letter. It is my document.

Q. Did you send a letter to the Prosecutor, informing her that you had information to provide relevant to this particular case?

A. Yes, I did. And as I said at the outset, I took the first step towards the contact.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we're still in the process of trying to locate the original written in the witness's hand. I would tender this exhibit under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, number 505, tab 18, under seal.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Now, the accused put the document 505, tab 4 and suggested to you that all this document deals with is exclusively the change of information. On the screen in front of you, I've asked that a -- a portion of that document be displayed. It's item 3. Can I ask you to simply read the last item in number 3, the very bottom item in that section.

A. Yes, Your Honour. It says here: "The elaboration of joint plans, the use of forces, and the elaboration of coordinated action plans." And I add also an exchange of information in the civilian section. That is probably something that is quite ordinary, exchange of information collected for this form, these units, is considered a combat operation or activity.

Q. When it refers to the deployment of forces, is that referring to something outside the units that you were involved in and you were a part ²⁴⁷²⁶ of?

A. Could you repeat that, please.

Q. Does the document that we have before us, does it refer to other plans and deployment of forces -- does it refer to other matters outside of those directly dealt with with this particular document?

A. It refers, among other things, to the exchange of officers for coordinated action in command posts and operation centres of commands and units, exchange of data regarding the situation in the air space, what they -- what we see that they should see and vice versa. That's it.

Q. Now, this is an order approved by General Mladic, and it purports to give direction to the VRS, members of the VJ, and members of the SVK. Can you explain under what circumstances General Mladic would be able to issue such an order that would be binding upon those other two armies.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

JUDGE MAY: What?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Groome is phrasing the question incorrectly, because General Mladic, in this document, is not giving any orders to the Army of Yugoslavia or to the Serbian Army of Krajina. On the contrary --

JUDGE MAY: We can read it. We can read it. Now, let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander, General Mladic, was commander of the Army of Republika Srpska. And these were plans of coordinated actions. But it's not an order. These are instructions in view of the newly created situation; what certain levels of units should ²⁴⁷²⁷ do in certain situations, what should be done.

MR. GROOME:

Q. My last question to you -- and I would ask that the witness be shown once again tab 12 of Exhibit 505. It's the document ending in 0095, marked with the blue tag.

You've discussed this document before, and this is the extraordinary promotion of Vinko Pandurevic and Dragan Obrenovic. You have touched upon the circumstances surrounding when somebody might be extraordinarily promoted. Can I ask you, in a clear, concise sentence, to explain to the Chamber what is an extraordinary promotion?

A. Your Honour, so this is an extraordinary promotion, which means that it is premature for certain activities. Pandurevic Vinko, and Obrenovic Dragan are being promoted, and it is clearly stated that they are serving in the 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the Yugoslav army. The date of the promotion is indicated, certified by military post, indicating the location which is Zvornik.

Q. Sir, it's a matter of public record that Vinko Pandurevic was indicted for crimes he's alleged to have committed in July of 1995, and it's also a matter of public record that Mr. Dragan Obrenovic recently pled guilty to those same crimes in July 1995. What is the date from this document when they were promoted?

A. The date is, on the basis of the order of the 31st of December, 1995, and it is recorded or registered on the 6th of January, 1996. So the order was written on the 31st of December, 1995.

MR. GROOME: No further questions. ²⁴⁷²⁸

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-127, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go, but would you just wait a moment until the blinds are closed. After this witness is concluded, there are some rulings which I want to give.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, if the Prosecution can please clarify which tabs should be under seal. I currently have tab 1, tab 3, tab 5, tab 6, tab 7, tab 8, tab 18, with tab 16 being withdrawn.

MR. GROOME: That's correct.

[The witness withdrew]

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: I gather the next witness is protected. It really is important that we deal with these matters expeditiously. Now, we can have the witness in while the blinds are down, I suppose.

MR. NICE: Yes, I was going to propose that.

JUDGE MAY: But it's important that these rulings be given. They're in your interest, if I may say, because they relate to the Prosecution evidence.

How long will it take to get the next witness here? Well, let's have the next witness here and we'll make a start, five to ten minutes of the evidence, and then we'll break off.

MR. NICE: Can I --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there any other administrative matters?

MR. NICE: A couple of administrative matters and then about the witness in closed session, briefly. ²⁴⁷²⁹ Preparing for the three-week break, not knowing how we can most assist the Chamber and its staff, I can tell you that we are in a position to provide you by the end of next week with up-to-date chronology and an up-to-date fillbox documents of the type you've seen before, if that would be of assistance to the Chamber.

We've also in mind this spirit of the recent rule change, and we'll try and provide maps for both Croatia and Bosnia by next week which will show which particular locations have been covered by evidence and which locations have had partial evidence cover, because it seems to us that might be something helpful for us all to be able to see pictorially as well as to have listed in another way.

I'll provide a new witness list, probably tomorrow or the day after, which will indicate the further cuts we've made and the amount of time we have yet further to cut to meet the deadline. As to the order of witnesses, the present list proposes B-083, followed by another 92 bis -- by a 92 bis witness, and then Audrey Budding, the historian. I would seek to take Audrey Budding immediately after B-083, for various reasons, not the least because she comes from further much away, she's an expert, and it's always desirable to keep the experts here, for various reasons, as short a period of time as possible, so that I would hope she would be in a position to start tomorrow, and that the accused would be ready for that. He would have been ready for her tomorrow, in any event, I think.

I shall be taking this witness briefly in chief, as I do with all experts. The Chamber will recall that we had provisionally made a ²⁴⁷³⁰ decision that we -- although we wanted a historian, we would nevertheless be able to do without her in view of the pressures of time on us. The same day as we were about to announce that decision, the Chamber expressed its view that there should be a historian available, and so she's here. But we would very respectfully invite the Chamber to consider in pressing the accused to focus his cross-examination rather than to explore everything, focus on matters that are really in dispute, with her. But I shall probably take her for less than half an hour in chief, I would hope. As to this witness, B-083, can I address you briefly about him in private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁴⁷³¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-083 ²⁴⁷³²

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. For the duration of your evidence, you will be known as Witness B-083.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, may the exhibits for this witness be given a collective number.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 507.

MR. NICE: May the witness be shown tab 1 of Exhibit 507, an exhibit to be kept under seal.

Q. Just yes or no: Does this piece of paper contain your curriculum vitae?

A. Yes.

Q. Witness B-083, paragraph 1 of the summary, did you work for a period of time in the Serbian Ministry of Defence?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Paragraph 5: Were the succession of ministers at the Ministry of Defence respectively Admiral Jokic followed by General Simovic, followed by General Negovanovic?

A. Yes.

Q. Paragraph 7: When Simovic became minister, was he joined by Major-General Kuzmanovic, assistant to the minister for military issues?

A. Yes.

Q. Paragraph 19: Are you aware of the existence of something called ²⁴⁷³³ the coordination group which was associated with General Djordjevic?

A. Yes.

Q. May we look now, please, at Exhibits 427, tabs 37 and 38. Tab 37 first.

MR. NICE: If I can remind the Chamber through the witness of what is on the document. Sorry, it's on Sanction. Yes. Thank you very much. Can we see the English -- yes.

Do Your Honours have an English version of this document in order to refresh your memories as to --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we do.

MR. NICE: -- what it contains? And for those who would not be able to read the B/C/S, it's a document of the 1st of November, 1991 from the Republic of Serbia's Ministry of Defence, seeking that, on the agenda of the government session, there should be placed the report on assisting Serbian areas in Croatia, and the document says, "Given the importance and level of confidentiality, the items should be discussed at a government session closed to the public." Signed by Major-General Kuzmanovic, apparently.

Q. Witness B-083, is that a signature you recognise? If so, whose is it?

A. It is the signature of Major-General Branislav Kuzmanovic.

Q. Thank you.

A. I consider it to be authentic.

Q. Exhibit 427, tab 38. Again, I trust that the Chamber has the original in English, being a document from the Republic of Serbia's ²⁴⁷³⁴ National Defence to the -- the Republic of Serbia's Ministry of Defence, dated the 1st of November, for the government of the Republic of Serbia, being a report on providing assistance to Serbian districts in Croatia. And as the Chamber may recall, being a document which on its first English translation side says at the beginning of the second paragraph, "Having considered top priorities several times and having reduced them to the most essential needs of the Serbs in Croatia" -- it goes on on the second page to set out the financial assistance to be provided for November and December 1991 in the sum of 1 billion 205 million dinars, which equates to, I think, 92.000-odd Deutschmarks, according to evidence we've already had -- 92 million-odd Deutschmarks. Sorry. The figures are sometimes confused.

The only thing we want from you, please, Witness B-083 is this: Do you see a signature at the foot of the document? If so, do you recognise it and whose is it?

A. There's no signature here -- yes. Yes, there is. I'm sorry. Branislav Kuzmanovic, Major-General.

Q. I think you're looking at the wrong part of the document.

MR. NICE: Can he have, please, tab 38. And can he have it at the second sheet in the B/C/S.

Q. Do you recognise the signature?

A. I do, but this is not Tomislav Simovic but Branislav Kuzmanovic who signed it.

Q. Thank you very much. We may return to that issue a little later tomorrow. ²⁴⁷³⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁴⁷³⁶

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, when you get to a convenient moment.

MR. NICE: Certainly.

Q. The next paragraph, 33: In general terms, please, Witness B-083, for payments out from Ministry of Defence funds, in addition to the obvious authority of the minister, who else would have authority to order the payment out of funds from the Ministry of Defence?

A. In addition to the Minister of Defence, the signature was deposited of the deputy minister and other persons who he considered could represent him in those transactions. And I don't know who they were.

MR. NICE: If Your Honour is looking for a convenient moment.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness B-083, we're going to adjourn. I'm sorry you haven't been able to give evidence for longer, but we'll hear the rest of your evidence tomorrow. Could you remember during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. We'll ask you to be back at 9.00 tomorrow.

Before you can go though, the blinds have got to be brought down. And I'm going to deal with some administrative matters first. This has nothing to do with you. It's purely administrative, so I'm going to deal with that --

No, not for the moment. I'm going to give these -- I'm going to give some rulings about evidence which have nothing to do with you. The first ruling deals with the statements of the following witnesses: B-1750, 1488, 1524, 1460, 1516, 1097, 1704, 1010, 1502. These ²⁴⁷³⁷ statements all deal with events associated with the takeover of Bijeljina, Zvornik, and Bratunac municipalities. Much evidence has already been given about those events. The statement of the witnesses -- the statements of the witnesses are cumulative, and they will be admitted under Rule 92 bis (A).

The Prosecution concedes that these witnesses should attend for cross-examination except for two, B-1010 and B-1516. The accused objects to any admission of statements and a fortiori would object to any statement being admitted without cross-examination. The amici make no objection in relation to B-1516, pointing out that the evidence is purely cumulative, identifying Repic as the perpetrator of the crimes committed against detainees at Celopek. He was identified as the perpetrator before and this was not challenged. For these reasons, the Trial Chamber will admit the statement without cross-examination.

In relation to B-1010, the amici point out that the statement involves a significant allegation, as it does. However, the Prosecution point out that the evidence is purely cumulative of that given by Witness B-1701, who was extensively cross-examined as to the presence of the JNA. Furthermore, they will be calling another witness to give evidence about the takeover of Bratunac who can be cross-examined. It is also to be noted that the witness identifies the soldiers as local Serbs, rather than the regular JNA.

In these circumstances, there is no significant live issue for the witness to be cross-examined about; therefore, these nine statements will ²⁴⁷³⁸ be admitted under Rule 92 bis, the statements of witnesses B-1516 and 1010 will be admitted without cross-examination, the remainder must attend for cross-examination.

There are two further short rulings which it would be convenient to deal with now. Apologies to the interpreters for the absence of a text, but as I say, they're short.

First, concerning Witness B-1241, to whom a Prosecution motion of the 7th of July relates, requesting the admission of a transcript and a written statement of the witness under Rule 92 bis. We have also the amici observations and the Prosecution reply. We have come to the conclusion that this witness's evidence should be heard live because of the overriding public interest in doing so, involving as it does significant allegations in the Bosnia indictment, the involvement of persons such as Mladic in the joint criminal enterprise and the cooperation between Serbia and the VRS.

Finally, the motion concerning a statement of Ana Bicani. I may have the name wrong -- Bicanic, I should say. We have considered that motion, which is to substitute her evidence for that of another witness and admit the evidence under Rule 92 bis with cross-examination. We've received no submissions from the amici. The evidence is cumulative regarding the attack upon Saborsko. Leave to substitute will be given. The statement will be admitted under Rule 92 bis, the witness to attend for cross-examination.

We will adjourn now until tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned ²⁴⁷³⁹ at 1.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

the 23rd day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.