24978
Friday, 25 July 2003
[Open session]
[The witness entered court]
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 10.34 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, we understand you haven't been well but that you're prepared to go on. If, at any stage, you want an adjournment, ask for it and of course you can have it if you're not well. You're not obliged to go on. We'll keep the session -- since we're a bit late starting, we'll keep the sessions fairly short for you to cross-examine the witness, but beforehand Ms. Bauer has a point. Yes.
MS. BAUER: Your Honour, overnight we made available the patches that were outstanding that need to be tendered. There are three patches. The first one is premarked 349, tab 18, a Serb Chetnik Movement patch, and I would like to offer that into evidence.
JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
MS. BAUER: The next patch is a specialised police patch and is pre-numbered 349, tab 19. And the third patch is pre-numbered 349, tab 20. It's the Falcons from Toput, Lopare in BiH.
JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
WITNESS: STANKO ERSTIC [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erstic, you explained that you were arrested at the beginning of October; is that right? 24979
A. Yes.
Q. And you spent a total of one month there?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, please, how many of you were there in that prison?
A. Approximately 120 altogether.
Q. Altogether?
A. Yes, altogether.
Q. And you say that you were in the old building at the Knin hospital; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And that building had been turned into a prison, or was it used for something else?
A. It was a prison and there were some soldiers there too.
Q. How big is the building?
A. Well, what can I tell you? You could put 300 people in it maybe.
Q. All right. You're a mason. You know the proportions of buildings. You're a builder and can assess that.
A. Well, I didn't have time to count how many rooms there were to the building.
Q. As far as I know, it's a very small building in actual fact. Is that right?
A. Well, medium sized.
Q. And how many rooms did you all take up? When you say "you," I mean all the people that were detained there, in how many rooms?
A. Well, there were about 15 rooms as far as I know. 24980
Q. And how many people in your room with you?
A. Twelve.
Q. Tell me, please, when you were exchanged, that was a month later?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And the International Red Cross attended, did it?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, please, what was the treatment you received in the month that you spent in prison like?
A. You mean towards us?
Q. Yes. How did they behave towards you?
A. Well, you wouldn't be able to know -- only people who were there could know what that treatment was like.
Q. But I'm asking you, so tell me.
A. We were beaten. We were mistreated. They forced us to do various things. They didn't allow us to sleep. The food was terrible.
Q. What did you have to do?
A. Well, we had to load up ammunition and weapons and unload flour, things like that. We had to dig canals, load up coal in Knin and so on.
Q. So during the working hours you would be taken out of the building of the old hospital to perform some physical labour; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And how big were these groups?
A. How do you mean? What did you say?
Q. I mean, how large were the groups of people taken off to do these work assignments? 24981
A. Well, sometimes six, sometimes eight, ten, four. Depending on the requirements.
Q. All right. Did anybody receive any injuries from the beatings and so on?
A. Well, people were injured, but nobody dared say they were.
Q. All right. And when you came under the auspices of the International Red Cross, were you able to tell them of your injuries and all the things you experienced over there, all the problems?
A. Well, we could, but we didn't dare do so because they told us beforehand that if anybody complained to the International Red Cross about what was going on, that you were being mistreated and beaten, you'll be really beaten up. So we didn't dare say anything.
Q. All right, Mr. Erstic. But you were taken for an exchange; right?
A. Yes. Afterwards we were exchanged, and when we were exchanged we could say what happened to us.
Q. All right. But while you were in prison, how many times did the International Red Cross come to visit you when you said you didn't dare complain to them?
A. Twice, I remember.
Q. At what intervals?
A. Well, some -- every ten or 12 days roughly.
Q. So during that month that you were incarcerated in the prison there, you weren't without International Red Cross supervision for longer than an a ten or 12-day period; is that right? 24982
A. Yes, thereabouts.
Q. All right. If not more than ten or 12 days expired without the Red Cross visiting you, then I assume that if you were beaten, the representatives of the International Red Cross could notice the traces of those beatings on you.
A. Well, they couldn't see because those who were badly beaten up were shut up in other rooms so that the International Red Cross had no idea about these people.
Q. You mean that the International Red Cross didn't have permission to tour all the premises, all the rooms in this hospital building which, as we know, wasn't a big one?
A. That's right. They weren't allowed to visit all the rooms because there were special rooms for these seriously injured people.
Q. All right. Now, you said that every ten or 12 days you would meet these representatives of the International Red Cross and you claim that you were injured. Could they notice those injuries on you, on your person?
A. Well, sir, when they bust up your ribs, nobody can notice that because you're covered in clothes.
Q. All right. Now, tell me, when you were exchanged -- once they exchanged you, and I heard you say something along those lines to Ms. Bauer, that you were exchanged -- a hundred of you were exchanged for 60 Serbs.
A. Yes. Twenty people from Lika remained.
Q. You mean in prison. 24983
A. Yes.
Q. Were they Croats?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Tell me, please, once you had been exchanged, those 100 of you for those 60 Serbs, where had those Serbs been before they were exchanged?
A. I don't know. I don't know that.
Q. Okay. Now, once you were exchanged, did you then explain to the International Red Cross, after that month or so that you spent in prison, that is, did you explain to them what had happened that you had been mistreated, and did you show them your injuries then, and bruises? And did you talk to them at all about things like that?
A. Well, they didn't ask us much, just brief questions.
Q. And what did you tell them when they asked you these brief questions?
A. I said that we were mistreated, that the food was bad, that we'd been beaten, that we were forced to do labour assignments, things like that.
Q. Are there any reports or minutes or notes taken by the International Red Cross recording the fact that you had been mistreated and beaten?
A. I don't know. I don't know if they made notes of what we told them. They just asked us that in sort of a formal way.
Q. You mean you -- they weren't interested in it, actually, they just asked you as a matter of course?
A. Yes, in passing. 24984
Q. And did they ask each individual?
A. Perhaps not each individual, but in passing maybe us 130, but we heard it all. Well, they asked what the treatment was like.
Q. And what did you tell them?
A. I said what I said earlier on, that we were mistreated. We were beaten every day, every night.
Q. Were there any doctors on that Red Cross team, International Red Cross team?
A. No.
Q. And when were you examined after you had been released? When did a doctor examine you?
A. The following day, straight away.
Q. Where? Where were you examined?
A. In Zadar and in Rijeka.
Q. All right. Very well. Now, do you have any documents to bear that out about the injuries you sustained?
A. When they started making requests for pensions and things like that, I went to the doctor in Zadar and asked him to issue those papers, but he said that it all happened during the war and that the papers are lost. And I have an uncle in Rijeka, so I went to Rijeka. And he said, "Well, we didn't register that. We didn't record anything in any log-books or anything like that," so they had nothing.
Q. So you had no documents although you were there for a month and your injuries must have been visible? You have no medical certificate to bear that out? 24985
A. No, that's right, I haven't. I just went to see the doctor, he gave me some medicines, I took the medicines he gave me, and that's it. Afterwards I wasn't able to get a single piece of paper from the doctors.
Q. Do you know if any of the people who were incarcerated with you in the prison have any medical certificates of any kind or documents which would indicate the injuries they sustained there?
A. Well, yes. Some people do have documents like that.
Q. Tell me who, for example. Give me a few names.
A. Well, there was that man, Mikulic. He was from my village but he was arrested later on. You mean during the time I was incarcerated there?
Q. Yes. Of the hundred that were exchanged, the ones that you know about. Can you give me a few names?
A. Well, I don't really know. I didn't see them around afterwards once I'd left myself, so --
Q. All right. So you don't know whether any of them have any medical documents?
A. No, because we didn't see each other after that.
Q. All right. Now, tell me this, please: You did your military service in the JNA in Serbia in 1987 to 1988 in Zemun - did you not? - the barracks there?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Tell me, please, while you were in Serbia, did you have any problems whatsoever due to the fact that you yourself were a Croat?
A. Well, so -- on one occasion I actually did.
Q. Well, tell me, describe the problem you had. 24986
A. When I was transferred to Kragujevac, I was on a factory farm there owned by the army, and there were just about 15 of us there, and we looked after the pigs and the calves and so on. We worked on the land. We would sow corn, wheat and so on, those kinds of things. And a month or two later, I can't tell you exactly but I think it was around about October, there was a sergeant there and he was very good towards me, but when the harvest came, he said, "Erstic," this one officer actually, "Erstic, you're going to answer me. I'm going to ask you something." And I said, "Yes, sir, warrant officer, if I can." And he said, "Of course you can. You'll know the answer." And then this is what he asked me, "Tell me, what you are by way of ethnicity, nationality, are you a Serb or a Croat?" And I said I was a Croat. He didn't answer, didn't say anything to that, just turned round and left. And then I saluted him in passing, I would -- that was my duty, but he never uttered a word to me after that, and I left the JNA. I think his name was Petar Nikolic.
Q. So the only unpleasant incident was that you were asked what your ethnicity was?
A. Yes. And he refused to talk to me after that.
Q. Well, do you know that during that time in the JNA there were Croats and Muslims and Albanians and Macedonians, Montenegrins, Slovenes, all the different nationalities? So how do you explain this? He didn't say anything to you. He didn't make any comment. He just asked you that question.
A. Yes, he asked me that question and turned around and left and never addressed me after that. Whereas beforehand, before that, he would 24987 even make some jokes and we would have some fun together, laughs.
Q. And from that, you concluded that he assumed a negative attitude towards you, is that it?
A. Well, I found it a little strange. After having asked me that he never said a word to me. I would say hello to him, salute him but he didn't respond.
Q. Well, that seems a bit strange for me too, so it's difficult for me to believe that but anyway, let's move on. You say the Croats and the Serbs got on well together up until about 1988 or 1989. That's what you say, when Milosevic started to make his speeches. Those are your words.
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, which speech of mine did you hear in which something was said that might have been against the Croats or against any people in Yugoslavia? Which speech did you hear?
A. Yes, sir. I watched you on television yourself when you were holding those rallies in Belgrade, when you were shouting, "We want a Greater Serbia, and all Serbs have to live in one state."
Q. Mr. Erstic, you could never have heard that on television from me to say that we want a Greater Serbia and that all Serbs have to live in one state. And you claim -- you could never have seen that and then you claim that you saw that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you must be the only person who saw it.
A. I'm not alone. Plenty of others saw it too.
Q. And when was that rally when you heard me say that we want a 24988 BLANK PAGE 24989 Greater Serbia?
A. It was in Belgrade, sometime in 1990.
Q. And those were my words, you say?
A. Yes, that's what I claim.
Q. I understand that that is what you claim. Did someone tell you that or are you claiming that you yourself saw that?
A. I saw that myself with my own eyes on television.
Q. Very well. Then I won't ask you anything more about that, because I assume you know that there are recordings of all those speeches. Tapes are available. And you actually claim I said, "We want a Greater Serbia"?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, that's very good. Now, tell me, please, in 1990 you became a member of the HDZ. I see that from your statement.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that the HDZ, according to the principles of its programme, already in February 1990 advocated an independent Croatia?
A. Yes, I do know that.
Q. And I see on page 2 that as a member of the HDZ, you welcomed the referendum for Croatia's independence.
A. Yes, I did. I voted for the HDZ.
Q. Tell me, on the basis of your own knowledge and experience at the time, what can you tell us? Was there a Croatian problem in Yugoslavia, the problem of Croatia? Did it exist in Yugoslavia?
A. Yes, there was a problem as soon as these slogans of a Greater Serbia started to be made. 24990
Q. Where did you hear those slogans?
A. Before the HDZ was formed.
Q. Very well. And where did you hear such slogans being made?
A. They started on television; where else?
Q. So you saw reports on Greater Serbia even before the HDZ was formed, on television?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that you celebrated after the referendum.
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And you also say that in Croatia, everyone was happy except for the Serbs, as you put it.
A. They celebrated their own, and we celebrated ours.
Q. So you celebrated after the referendum. Everyone was happy except the Serbs. Why were the Serbs not happy? What do you think?
A. I don't know what you mean when you say they were not happy. They were happy because they already suspected what would happen. They were even happier than we were.
Q. I see. They were even happier than you when that referendum was held on the independence of Croatia?
A. No, sir. That is not what I meant. As soon as you had stated that there would be a Greater Serbia and that all Serbs would live in one state.
Q. Oh, that is what made them happy. I see.
A. Yes.
Q. You know that I never said that. 24991
A. You can claim that you didn't. Yes, you did.
Q. And do you know that why the Serbs were not happy was because certain rights had been abolished for them in Croatia?
A. If the Serbs didn't have rights in Croatia, then I don't know where anyone in the world had any rights.
Q. So you don't know that their status that they had had according to the Croatian constitution had been abolished?
A. No, I don't know that at all.
Q. And did you know anything at all regarding what was done towards the Serbs in those days, for instance, in 1990, 1991? When were you in prison? You were in prison in 1991, weren't you?
A. Yes, in 1991.
Q. Was anything done in 1990 or 1991 towards the Serbs because they might have been disturbed?
A. I'm not familiar with that question.
Q. So you don't know anything about that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And do you know that Serbs, during those years, were advocating the preservation of Yugoslavia?
A. As far as I know, the Serbs were not really for preserving Yugoslavia. They wanted Yugoslavia to fall apart.
Q. I see. That is what you know.
A. Yes.
Q. Since you know that, how do you explain the fact that at those elections at which the HDZ won, that is a fact, that is not my allegation, 24992 most Serbs voted for the League of Communists of Croatia, the SDP led by Ivica Racan, and not for the Serbian Democratic Party?
A. Sir, that is not true that they had voted for Ivica Racan. They voted for the democratic Serbian party, because wherever you turned, there were posters to that effect.
Q. I am not talking about posters of all the parties taking part in the elections. What I am asking you is that most Serbs in Croatia then voted for the League of Communists of Croatia and not for the Serbian Democratic Party.
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know anything at all about the anti-Serb campaign launched after these elections and the victory of the HDZ?
A. No, because I really was not involved in politics.
Q. Do you remember, at least you could have seen it in the Croatian press. I'm not talking about the press in Belgrade because you didn't live there, but in the Croatian press in the course of 1990, could you see anything about the incidents involving Serbs? Do you remember the incident when that Ustasha sign was written, the letter U on the Serbian religious parish in Bogoviceva Street in Zagreb? This was in March.
A. To tell you quite frankly, I don't read the press much now and I didn't before.
Q. And do you remember when the formation started of the volunteer youth units in Croatia and various events which caused a great deal of nervousness and fear among the Serbs?
A. I don't remember. I was at home. I was tilling the land, looking 24993 after the cattle so that I didn't interfere with those things much.
Q. But do you remember the name Tjelesni Zdrug or the Croatian National Guards or the Sokol guards or volunteer youth units of Civil Defence of Croatia? So I've quoted four different names of these organisations. Do you remember when those formations were formed at the time?
A. This is the first time I hear of them.
Q. Then I won't ask you anything more about that. Tell me, do you remember that, because you say that the Serbs hated the Croatian flag; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. So their reaction was negative to the Croatian flag.
A. Yes.
Q. You mean the chequerboard flag, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know that this chequerboard flag was the symbol of the independent state of Croatia during the Second World War when many Serbs were killed in Croatia, when they were the victims of genocide?
A. The Second World War was a long time ago. You're asking me too much.
Q. And do you think that 50 years later a symbol of crimes in the Second World War --
JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. The witness can't help us about this, and we've been through it with a large number of other witnesses anyway. So let's move on to something which he can deal with, 24994 connected probably with his village.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking him, Mr. May, in view of the fact that he said that the Serbs had a negative attitude or, as he put it, hated the Croatian flag, to explain to me if he knows the reasons for this.
JUDGE MAY: We don't need to go into it with this witness. It's a matter we've dealt with a great many times already.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You say that the attack on Krusevo in the summer of 1991 was a turning point?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was this attack on Krusevo in 1991 a turning point when you know very well what preceded the summer of 1991, the events in Croatia that preceded it?
A. Why the attack? Because the Greater Serbia had already been launched. It was arming the Serbs in Croatia, and upon assignment, they went from one village to another to destroy everything.
Q. So that is your explanation, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. You say that the Serbs had automatic rifles as you say manufactured in the Crvena Zastava factory in Serbia?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, do you know that that was the only factory manufacturing those weapons, that is the automatic rifle in Yugoslavia? It was the 24995 weapons envisaged by establishment for the whole of Yugoslavia.
A. Yes, I do know, because I too was issued the same rifle in the former JNA.
Q. And those rifles existed in the JNA and the Territorial Defence in all the republics throughout Yugoslavia; isn't that right?
A. Yes. They were in the Territorial Defence, and all that went into Serb hands. It was distributed to the Serbs.
Q. I'm not talking about who got hold of them, because probably they were not the only ones, but you say that they had rifles manufactured in Serbia. So everyone had rifles manufactured in Serbia, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And who were these people that you refer to in your statement, the armed men in Krajina? Were they the people you knew from Krajina?
A. There were some while I were there. There were some I knew. There was others I didn't know.
Q. I see. So you mean there were people who were not from your village.
A. Yes.
Q. And did you know all the people in Knin and in the environs?
A. I knew the locals, and in Knin there were people from Serbia and from Bosnia.
Q. And who did you see from Serbia and Bosnia?
A. There were Captain Dragan's soldiers, and judging by their accents when we made their beds. And we washed the premises, and we washed the windows and so on. 24996
Q. I gathered from Captain Dragan's statement that he went there alone and he engaged in the training of local military conscripts. He didn't bring anyone with him. He came all the way from Australia.
A. Yes, but they spoke real Serbian, because I spent a year in Serbia and know how Serbs speak, how Croats speak, and how Bosnians speak.
Q. Now, tell me, please, when you're describing your arrest, is it true that you were not arrested by the JNA or any unit from Serbia?
A. That is true. It was the local Serbs, the soldiers of Milan Martic or the police, Milan Martic's police.
Q. It's not Milan Martic's police. It was the police of Krajina.
A. Yes, of Krajina. And he was the commander.
Q. And the men who held you in detention were members of that police, weren't they?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. And is it right that among the detainees there were members of the National Guards Corps who were captured in the fighting in Kijevo?
A. Yes.
Q. How many members of the National Guards Corps were there that were captured during those battles?
A. About 20 or so of them.
Q. And tell me, please, since you say all of you who were in detention were Croats, were you absolutely all Croats or were there also some Serbs who were imprisoned there or people of other nationalities? Because people can be sent to prison for various reasons?
A. No. There were only Croats, from Dalmatia, actually. No one else 24997 was in the prison. From Dalmatia and Lika.
Q. And were all of these then exchanged?
A. Only the people from Lika stayed behind.
Q. Do you know were they later exchanged as well?
A. I heard they were.
Q. Was the principle known then that there were exchanges all for all?
A. It applied to Dalmatia, all for all. And the last thing that happened was that Gospic and Knin had to negotiate with their own people.
Q. So they were dealt with separately. You say 100 Croats were exchanged for 60 Serbs. If it was an all-for-all exchange, all of them were supposed to be exchanged.
A. That applied to Dalmatia, 100 Croats, and the rest were different from Gospic and Knin.
Q. So somebody was waiting for the other side from Gospic and Knin to release Serb prisoners according to the all-for-all principle?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know, since you were arrested only in October 1991, and you stayed in prison until November 1991, how many Croats remained living in Knin, continued living normally without any problem?
A. Well, that is a big question. How could I possibly know how many Croats remained in Knin?
Q. Well, did you know anyone because you lived in the vicinity, and probably as a mason you must have worked in Knin at some point. Did you know the Croats who lived there? 24998 BLANK PAGE 24999
A. Not a single one, to be honest.
Q. You didn't know a single person?
A. No, I didn't. I rarely went to Knin. And I wasn't really interested in who was Croat and who was Serb.
Q. Did you know anyone at all in Knin?
A. You mean in Knin itself? Well, I knew one man who lived -- who drove a bus in Knin.
Q. Okay. I'll try to speed this up. You said that you had seen General Mladic in uniform, although you were not sure about that.
A. I am sure.
Q. But he or any other JNA soldier had nothing to do with your arrest?
A. That much is true.
Q. But he had something to do with your release, didn't he?
A. I believe he did, because he was in charge there.
Q. Namely it was he who organised, together with Martic, that you be released from prison and taken for an exchange.
A. I believe that's how it was.
Q. You say in your statement that Captain Dragan's men came to see you, gave you cigarettes and treated you decently.
A. They didn't come to see us. They asked the guards who were guarding us to get us to come to their quarters to make their beds, scour the floors, clean their lavatories, and they treated us decently. I have to say that much. It's true.
Q. Did they help you in any way? 25000
A. Well, you see, at that time it was quite enough for us that nobody beat us while we were in their quarters. They gave us cigarettes. They treated us like normal people.
Q. Among the escorts of this delegation of the ICRC, was there a Croatian representative, Ivo Covic?
A. Yes. He introduced himself and said that he was from Split.
Q. Did you talk to him?
A. Yes. He stretched out his hand for a handshake. It was very brief. Just an introduction.
Q. Did you have occasion to tell him at least, if not the foreigners from the ICRC a couple of words about the conditions you were living in, how you were faring there?
A. Well, yes. When he asked us we had to say it was fine, because we knew what we were in for if we said anything else. So we had to lie and say that everything was all right, lest we be beaten and mistreated later.
Q. Tell me, at one point were you taken to a JNA barracks?
A. Yes. When we were all released from that prison and put on a bus, the buses left and we didn't even know where we were going. We knew nothing at all. And then we arrived at a barracks. We could see that it was a barracks. There were soldiers around in olive-green/grey uniforms.
Q. Did that tell you that the army was taking you over and that they were taking you to your release?
A. Well, they had said dozens of times that, "Your exchange would happen tomorrow or the day after tomorrow," and it never happen before, and so we didn't really trust them. 25001
Q. How could they have promised you 50 times that it would happen any day now and you had lost hope, whereas you spent a month in prison only?
A. Well, they would tell us the same thing in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening. It was a form of mistreatment.
Q. What was a form mistreatment, promises of exchange?
A. Yes. They kept talking about it and it never happened.
Q. Well, from the day you were brought to the prison to the day you left there was only a month?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were exchanged.
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, in 1993, you were in the Croatian army?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Until 1995.
Q. You were involved in the Storm operation; correct?
A. I was.
Q. Do you know what happened in that Operation Storm?
A. What happened. Well, the Serbs had fled. We liberated the place. We came back to our homes. That was it.
Q. Tell me, do you know anything at all about the suffering of Serb civilians in that Operation Storm? Because you participated in it. As a participant, you must have some idea.
A. Well, I didn't see any Serbs either alive or dead or wounded. So my conscience can be clear. 25002
Q. What unit were you in?
A. Home guards.
Q. Where did that unit go then?
A. That's the area of Velebit, Mount Velebit, Golubici, some village there. Others had come there before us, and we followed in. We came by truck, and since we were able to get in by truck, it means there was no longer any danger.
Q. So you didn't go any further. You just stayed where you were brought.
A. Yes, they brought us there and unloaded us there, and we spent there one day and one night.
Q. So you didn't see a single person dead, alive, or wounded, and you know nothing about how many people got killed in that operation?
A. I have no clue.
Q. Did you know anything at that time when you were already in the Croatian army about Croatian prisons holding Serb prisoners?
A. No. But this thing in the Operation Storm, the people who stayed behind, you mean?
Q. I'm interested in anything you know about it.
A. There were those centres where civilians were placed, elderly people. I believe there was one in Zadar, as far as I know.
Q. Do you know anything at all about anything else about the one in Zadar?
A. Nothing.
Q. But as far as you know, how were they treated? 25003
A. I don't know that either because I didn't go there to see them. I was not in charge of that, so I can't tell whether the treatment was good or bad.
Q. Did you have any idea about the camps instituted for Serbs in your immediate vicinity such as the town of Biograd Na Moru, not to speak of Virovitica, Glina, Vrginmost? Did you know anything about those camps?
A. No. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Do you know anything about the events in Gospic, which is also in your immediate vicinity, about the camps that existed there?
A. How could I know? I know nothing about that. Gospic is far away from me. I've never been there in my whole life and I'm 35 years old.
Q. How long after the Operation Storm did you remain with the Croatian army?
A. We demobilised about a couple of days later, maybe five or six or eight days.
Q. So you went back to your village after that and you were no longer involved in those formations again?
A. No. That was the end.
Q. And in that whole operation you didn't fire a single round and you were not involved in any military action?
A. Nobody shot at me and I didn't shoot at anyone and I had an easy time of it.
Q. And you know nothing about what happened?
A. No.
Q. Well, thank you, Mr. Erstic. I have no further questions. 25004
A. Thank you too.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions either.
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Bauer.
MS. BAUER: No re-examination either. Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Erstic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
[The witness withdrew]
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: Since the witness is no longer with us and when a witness is here I want to raise other matters, you said we were late because I was feeling unwell. The only thing I had asked for was a pain-killer, and that's all. Otherwise, as you know, I never complain about anything.
JUDGE MAY: Good. Very well. We will have the next witness.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Ivan Marjanovic, and he testifies also without any protective measures.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Ivan Marjanovic, declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: IVAN MARJANOVIC
[Witness answered through interpreter] 25005
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, you have already stated your name. On the 18th June 1993, did you review the statement given to an investigator on the 2nd of March, 1991, and confirm its accuracy in a legal proceeding?
A. Yes, I have.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to tender the 92 bis statement as an exhibit.
THE REGISTRAR: 511, Your Honour.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will read now briefly the main points from this statement.
Mr. Marjanovic, a Croat farmer aged 63 at the time of the events lived in Nova Krslja, a small settlement of 18 Croatian homes in a predominantly Serb-inhabited area of the Slunj municipality. It is in the region close to Rakovica, Kordunski Ljeskovac, and Drecnik Grad and Your Honours, it's such a small place and also the village of Lipovaca that it is not actually in the atlas, but you find the other three villages on page 20 in grid 4B, and just below the division line between grid 4B, 3B and 4B, just for your orientation.
The village Lipovaca which was close to the village of the witness is about three times bigger than this Nova Krslja. Relations were harmonious between the two ethnic groups until the elections in Croatia in 1990. Beginning of 1991, the police split along ethnic lines and 25006 barricades were set up in the region that made movement very difficult. The witness, therefore, stayed in the village throughout the relevant time period.
On the 27th of October, 1991, Serb soldiers led by Milan Popovic came to the village and arrested all young Croat men they could find including the witness's son Marijan. Popovic introduced himself to the witness as the commander of the police unit of the JNA in Zeljava. Zeljava was close to Bihac and was a military airport. Popovic wore a standard JNA uniform with the cap with the five pointed star. Some of the soldiers that were with him were local Serbs and they wore black police uniforms. The soldiers searched the witness's house for weapons. Mr. Marjanovic, I have one question in relation to the soldiers that came to your house. Among the soldiers that wore the regular JNA uniform, were there any -- any soldiers who seemed to be conscripts from other regions in the former Yugoslavia, and if so, from which region?
A. There were some from Macedonia.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. What?
Q. How do you know that, that they were from --
A. Well, they spoke Macedonian amongst themselves, and that was just a little way up from my house.
Q. I'll continue with the summary. The young Croats were taken to the military prison at Zeljava where they were held and beaten continuously. Fifteen days later, the witness's son was released. He was bruised all over his body. 25007 On the 28th of October, 1991, Serb soldiers returned and -- to the house of the witness and demanded that he surrender his rifle although the witness did not have any rifle. The soldiers then beat him severely. They also hit him with a cable which broke the witness's arm and wrist. The next day, soldiers came again and told him that he was not allowed to leave the house or the immediate surrounding of the house. A couple of days later, Nedjo Kotur came to the witness's house and told him that the Serbs had killed some Croats, and he told the witness to go with him to bury them. Kotur was a local Serb, a local Serb commander, and he was dressed in a JNA uniform of a reserve officer, and he wore a JNA hat with a Red Star. Together with Kotur and three other Croat villagers, the witness drove to Lipovaca. On the drive, when they passed the checkpoint manned by Martic men, Kotur changed his JNA hat against a black beret. A bit further down the road he again put on his JNA hat.
They all went to the house of Mate Brozincevic in the village of Lipovaca. In the kitchen they found the body of Mate Brozincevic having several bullets in his stomach. The witness also saw that Mate's wife, Rosa, had been shot and the son's body, the son Mirko, was lying on his side in the entrance of the bedroom and he was shot through the neck. The witness and the other Croat villagers buried the bodies in front of the house.
Then they moved to the house of Franjo Brozincevic. They saw the bodies of Franjo Brozincevic, his wife Mira, and the daughter and mother, Marija Cindric and Kata Cindric, the latter a very old lady. They were 25008 BLANK PAGE 25009 lying on the floor, and all these people had been shot and the witness and the other Croat villagers buried them also in front of the house. When -- during your -- the preparation for your testimony, sir, did you review a list of names of victims in Lipovaca, and did you add additional information, in particular their ages?
A. No, I did not. I did review it, and I know all of them in order, all the men and women who were there.
Q. And did you also know their ages and did you add these information --
A. At the time -- what was it you said.
Q. Did you also tell the -- me, tell me the anxious of the -- the approximate ages of the victims?
A. Yes. I did, yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have actually prepared a list of the additional information that we got from the witness during the proofing and would like to tender it as an additional exhibit.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Do you have it?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. You actually should have it. It's tab 2. Sorry. It's tab 2 of this little bundle that you got.
JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, I'm -- I'm against admitting part of an indictment as evidence, using the indictment as evidence. Is this not an annex of the indictment.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And we have actually exhibited these annexes already, and all the witness did is add the approximate age of the victims. 25010
JUDGE KWON: I think it is enough to know that this is Annex I, paragraph 42.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
JUDGE KWON: Yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, when you came to Lipovaca on that day, did you see any destruction?
A. I didn't. I saw some destroyed houses, actually houses that had been burnt, that kind of thing.
Q. Did you see any Croatian villagers from Lipovaca?
A. When these people were buried, that was when I saw two men who were there, who were who were fairly near, Smolcic Nele, and he brought me some planks and nails and the things we needed.
Q. And do you know what happened to these two men afterwards?
A. I don't know the reasons. They were there and I know nothing about them after that.
Q. What do you mean? Are they missing?
A. They're missing. They -- their families after Operation Storm came to look for them but nobody knew what had happened to them. I don't know.
Q. Yes. In paragraph 13 of your statement, you described how you were ordered to go to the military command in Kordunski Ljeskovac on the 4th of August, 1995, and we do not need to repeat that. But when you returned to your village, did you find your family and the other villagers still there? 25011
A. I didn't find my family, but I found the other villagers.
Q. Where was your family?
A. My family had left and gone to Ruma. They ordered my son Marijan to switch the engines on to his tractor and trailer and to take the rest of the family to Ruma also. They were also Serbs.
Q. Who ordered him? Do you know that?
A. In Nova Krslja, Ilija Kovacevic, one of his sons, who worked for the police, ordered them and Rade too, a man called Rade.
Q. You mentioned Serbs that were on the trailer. How many Serbs did your son transport?
A. What did you say?
Q. You mentioned Serbs that were on the trailer, and my question is: How many Serbs did your son transport?
A. About 40 with all the luggage.
Q. What were they told?
A. And they said the Mujahedin were coming from Bosnia and would slaughter everyone.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions.
JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I just noted that this is not just the annex of the indictment. The witness put some annotation on that. So I think it's quite admissible. So I suggest the Chamber to admit it. You can deal with it.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That is actually what I meant. The additional points that the witness knew about the victims. Your Honour, this concludes my questions. 25012
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Examine for about ten minutes and then we'll take the break.
Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, in your municipality or, rather, in your village of Nova Krslja, it's not a municipality, it's a village I assume.
A. Yes, a village.
Q. Well, as far as I understand it, in 1991 there were about 300 houses to the village; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And only 18 were owned by Croats; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that you didn't take -- that you were liberated by Operation Storm and that about 35 people were killed or, rather, bodies exhumed of people who were killed by the Serbs; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, on what grounds do you say that they were killed by the Serbs? And do you have any information as to how those people lost their lives in fact?
A. All the people who remained in the village were killed.
Q. You mean in your village?
A. Yes, from -- not my village but Drecnik Grad, Saborski, Ilinovac those places.
Q. All right. Did you visit those places, the ones you just told us of, at any time? 25013
A. I know all those places, but all those casualties were taken to Drecnik Grad when the exhumation took place.
Q. So you learnt about it just when the exhumation was taking place, is that it?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, please, how do you explain this claim that they were killed by the Serbs if in fact you first learnt about all this once the exhumation had started?
A. Yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness does not claim in his statement that these 35 people were killed by Serbs. He only testified that he heard about the people from Lipovaca, that seven victims.
JUDGE MAY: Which -- which paragraph deals with the 35, please?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's paragraph 14. And that's just the mentioning of the victims, not who -- how they were killed and who did it.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. The statement says: "I aware that there were others killed in the area because I know there were about 35 people exhumed from graves in surrounding villages."
Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. As we're on point 14, as Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said a moment ago, in order to save time I am going to take advantage of this to read out paragraph 14. You say that during the war,: "I did not lose a single member of my family, and nobody from my village fell victim." 25014
A. Not from my village.
Q. There you have a full stop. And then you go on to say: "I know that some other people from our region were killed because I know that in the surrounding villages 35 bodies were exhumed." So what I wanted was to ask you this: In view of the fact that none of your family members and nobody from your village was killed, so on the one hand that is what you claim, and I assume it's the truth, and we've already noted that in Nova Krslja there were 300 houses of which only 18 were Croatian houses, which means that it was a predominantly Serb-inhabited village and not a single Croat of those villagers there in your village was killed during the whole war; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me then, please, today, after the Operation Storm, how many Serbs are living in those 300 houses which existed before Operation Storm?
A. They've all moved out and left for Serbia. Now, at present, there are only four houses. And all the rest -- actually, the rest are coming back and their houses are being built up again.
Q. So you mean eight years after Operation Storm, there are only four houses or households; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You also say in your statement that up until 1991, there were no problems.
A. That's right, there weren't any problems.
Q. Then you go on to say, and this is all in paragraph 2 of your statement, or point 2, whichever you like, that you came to realise that 25015 the Serbs wanted to create a Serb Krajina and that my speeches introduced discord among the population. That's what you say. You say: "I heard several of Milosevic's speeches being delivered," and I will skip this because you say the speeches of other politicians too, "and I came to realise that the speeches were entering -- that were leading to discord among the people."
So what speech was it of mine that you thought led to discord?
A. Your speech.
Q. Could you explain this to me? I'm not quite sure. What do you mean my conversation?
A. Well, I always heard you talking and at all the rallies and all the talks and conversations.
Q. What talks and conversations?
A. Well, when you were talking. When you were saying something where -- in some places.
Q. Well, give me an example, because the previous witness also mentioned my speeches. What is it that I said that introduced discord amongst the Serbs and Croats?
A. Well, you said that you were establishing a Serb Krajina.
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, did you hear that with your very own ears? Did you hear me that we were setting up a Serb Krajina?
A. Well, I did hear it several times.
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, do you know that I never said that?
A. Well, I heard it.
Q. You heard it nonetheless? 25016
A. Yes, I heard it nevertheless.
Q. Tell me what you say you heard. You say you heard me allegedly say things like that. Was that the only reason that there were tensions among the Serb inhabitants of your region?
A. What do you say?
Q. Were there any problems which the Serbs at that time had in Croatia in 1990 and 1991?
A. Well, the Serbs didn't talk to the Croats much after that, but I have good neighbours who saved me a number of times during the war.
Q. All right. But your village is the best example because there were only 18 houses and not a hair of their head was harmed.
A. That's right. Just two houses were burnt, and those houses were burnt because there were Croatian policemen inside. So just two houses.
Q. All right, Mr. Marjanovic. Now, you say that in 1991, you saw some local Serbs carrying rifles.
A. Well, yes, of course.
Q. Now, tell me why were they arming themselves?
A. Well, I wasn't arming them. You know best.
Q. Were there any attacks against the Serbs before they started arming themselves?
A. What did you say?
Q. I'm asking you -- you have your headset on, so I assume you can hear me properly. Were there any attacks on the Serbs before the Serbs started arming themselves?
A. I didn't feel any attacks. 25017
Q. As far as I understand, you didn't move around outside your village anywhere, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And there were no problems there, were there?
A. I didn't move around anywhere, no.
Q. And then in that same paragraph, you go on to say: "I knew that a Croatian referendum was being organised, but I was afraid to go and vote because it was too dangerous as I lived surrounded by Serbs."
A. Well, there was that too.
Q. Did anybody threaten you, any of your villagers in that village of yours?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. So nobody harmed you at all? Nobody threatened you or did anything like that?
A. No.
Q. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said that tensions were growing when she gave us the background to your testimony, she said that barricades had been set up.
A. Well, yes, there were barricades.
Q. And at the end of paragraph 2, you say in the last sentence: "I never saw any barricades, but I heard that there were some in Petrova Gora, Vojnic, Korenica, Slunj, the lakes of Plitvice and so on."
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Well, as far as other people have testified, there were barricades, but all I want to establish is that you yourself never saw any 25018 BLANK PAGE 25019 barricades, did you?
A. No, I didn't. I did not.
Q. And that had no effect on relations or tensions in your village, did it?
A. No, it didn't.
Q. You also say in connection with having seen local Serbs with rifles that you realised that they were making problems and that the police had become separated into the Serb police and Croat police; is that right?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Now, do you know that this separation or division occurred because -- precisely because of Croatia's state policy?
A. I'm not a politician. I never had anything to do with politics.
Q. Yes, I respect that. Now, do you know why there was this separation and divide in the police force?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, did you ever hear that -- about the constitutional amendments in July 1990 adopted by the Croatian parliament or Sabor?
A. No. Perhaps I wasn't listening to any news of that kind at the time.
Q. All right. But I'm sure is you'll remember those days when the symbols, the coat of arms with the chequerboard motif on it and the symbols of the same Independent State of Croatia were revived of the state during World War II? You don't remember that?
A. No, I don't. 25020
Q. When they established that the only official script to be used would be the Latin script. You don't remember that?
A. No.
Q. Now, as you say that the police split up into two groups, do you know that in Croatia at that time it was from the internal affairs department or rather from the police force a lot of Serbs were dismissed as well as unreliable Croats? Do you know about that?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember that the Serb refugees, ever since October 1991, in fact, moved out of Croatia in great waves? Do you remember that?
A. And so did the Croats. They went to Zagreb too.
Q. I'm asking you about the Serb refugees as far as back as October 1991.
A. No.
Q. Well, tell me, please, then, do you remember any pressure that was brought to bear by the Croatian forces and the Croatian state and the Croatian authorities at that time against the Serbs for which the Serbs left, the Serb refugees left the area?
A. No, I don't remember.
Q. At that time, did any news reach you? Did you watch television, read the newspapers or anything like that?
A. I didn't read the newspapers then, and I don't read them now. All I have to do is to make ends meet. That is what my life is.
Q. I understand, Mr. Marjanovic, but if we bear in mind the fact that you lived in a village in which as you yourself say nothing happened, 25021 there was not a single casualty, you didn't read the newspapers --
A. That's right. No Serbs fell casualty in my village.
Q. And neither did a Croat, I assume.
A. That's right, neither did a Croat.
Q. And yet you spent the entire time there?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Well, what are you testifying about here?
A. Well, I'm testifying about --
JUDGE MAY: About what happened. You've heard what he's testifying about. He's testifying about the bodies in the village. Do you want to ask him about them?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I do. But, Mr. May, I've already asked him whether he knows anything at all about how those people came to lose their lives, and as far as I understand it, the witness's answer was that he knows nothing about that, that the first information that reached him about all that was when they were brought for burial.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And what year was that? When were those corpses brought? After Operation Storm, was it?
A. Yes, after Operation Storm.
Q. That means at the end of 1995.
A. What did you say?
Q. That was at the end of 1995 when the bodies were brought over there.
A. Yes. I went to bury them and -- 25022
Q. When was that?
A. That was in 1995, after Storm. One or two months after that.
Q. Right. One or two months after Operation Storm. So that would place it in September or October?
A. When the parents came and the family members. They came to see me to ask me whether I knew anything and the police, the Croatian police also came to see me and I told them that I went to bury the bodies, and they said, "When the exhumation is to take place, we'll come and fetch you," and they came to fetch me and then I told them who I had buried where, and everybody was taken to the Drecnik church and cemetery, and that's where these people were finally buried, in that large cemetery there.
Q. In your village before the war, was there any Territorial Defence organisation of any kind?
A. No.
Q. And in the surrounding parts, were these -- ZNG organisations?
A. Yes, Drecnik, Rakovica, Draganac, that kind of thing.
Q. So in Drecnik, Rakovica and Draganac?
A. Yes.
Q. And those are precisely the places in which you said there was shooting?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. But there was no shooting in your village and they weren't there in your village, were they?
A. No. Afterwards, the Yugoslav People's Army shot from there at Bosnia. 25023
Q. When did the Yugoslav People's Army shoot at Bosnia?
A. Well, 1991 to -- right by my house, there were cannons and all that kind of thing.
Q. When was that period of time when you saw members of the JNA and those cannons by your house?
A. In 1992 too.
Q. When in 1992?
A. What did you say?
Q. When in 1992?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. I'm asking you when. Was it the beginning of 1992?
A. 1992 and 1993 to 1994. They would circle all around there and go to Bosnia and shoot at Bosnia from that.
Q. All right. Now, what happened in the second part of 1992, 1993 and 1994? It was not the Yugoslav People's Army as you know?
A. What did you say?
Q. At that time it wasn't the Yugoslav People's Army.
A. Well, who was it then?
Q. It was the Serb army of Krajina or the Army of Republika Srpska. I don't know who?
A. Well, it was the Serbian army of Krajina and the Serbian army of the JNA.
Q. All right, Mr. Marjanovic. You say in point 4 that in October 1991, there was a unit led by, as you say, Milan Popovic, the commander or leader. He was an officer, wasn't he? 25024
A. He brought those men in from Zeljava, the people to arrest people in the village.
Q. All right. In your descriptions given here a moment ago during the examination-in-chief, you said that he had the insignia of a reserve officer; is that right?
A. What did you say? Popovic?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, he was a sort of sergeant there.
Q. Yes. But was he a reserve officer?
A. An active one.
Q. And which reserve officer did you mention?
A. I mentioned Kotur as being the reserve officer.
Q. All right. This man Kotur --
A. Yes.
Q. I'm looking at point 6 of your statement. "Kotur came to me and said that the Serbs had killed some Croats," and then the next sentence, and that's why I'm quoting this portion: "Kotur was considered to be the duke of the domestic Serbs."
A. That's what his own men called him, his reservists.
Q. All right. Tell me, what do you mean by "his men," "his army."
A. The Yugoslav army.
Q. Well, I assume you know, Mr. Marjanovic, because you've had a lot of experience throughout your life, that the there were no dukes or vojvodas in the Yugoslav People's Army?
A. Well, I don't know those vojvodas, but his men would address him 25025 as Vojvoda, say, come on, Vojvoda, Duke.
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, in view of all the experience you've gained through your long life, aren't you aware that there weren't men belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army there?
A. What do you mean there weren't when it was the Yugoslav Army? Of course there were. If they had the insignia of the star, you knew which army they belonged to and on who was in command.
Q. I see. So this man Kotur, who was called Vojvoda, had a five-pointed star?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. So that must be the only case I've ever heard of like that.
A. I'm telling you what I saw with my own eyes.
Q. Well, you say that you personally heard my speeches?
JUDGE MAY: That's a different matter. That's a totally different matter.
It might be sensible to be take the adjournment now. Mr. Marjanovic, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. Could you remember in the adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the Prosecution. We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
--- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 25026
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, I looked through your statement during the break, and you said a moment ago that this officer Kotur who was considered a vojvoda w0re a cap with five-cornered star?
A. Yes.
Q. And I was surprised how that could be possible, and I'll read to you point 6 of your statement. You say that "Kotur was considered a vojvoda of the local Serbs. In the military sense, this meant that he was their commander. He was from Grabovac."
A. Yes.
Q. "A place only a kilometre away from Lipovaca." Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you go on to say: "On that occasion, he was dressed in a black police uniform, and as far as I can remember, he had on his head a woolen cap with a cockade."
A. I didn't say that.
Q. So what it says in your statement is not correct, but what you just said is correct, that is that he wore a cap with a five-cornered star and he was a member of the JNA?
A. On the way to the burial of these people some two kilometres from my house, Kotur put on his black cap, and he said that the route was safe. Now, what that black cap meant to him, I don't know. And after another two kilometres, he put the five-cornered star -- the cap with the five-cornered star up until the houses of the people who were killed.
JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, the witness made a correction in the addendum on that. That's what you're going to raise, yes. 25027
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I didn't notice that addendum and correction.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Is it true that on his uniform he wore insignia with the word "SAO Krajina" on it, and he was armed with a pistol? It also says that in your statement?
A. He carried a pistol and a sack on his back, but it -- on the insignia, he didn't have SAO Krajina. The other soldiers did have the patch of the SAO Krajina. He did not.
Q. And then you go on to say: "He was with me. He appeared to be furious because those people had been killed, and he didn't approve of it at all."
A. He was angry and furious, because those were his neighbours, people he knew and I knew.
Q. That's all I wish to clarify. Do you know that in the time that preceded these tensions that there were incursions into the internal affairs secretariats in the area around you, that Serbs were inside who were disarmed, their weapons seized, they lost their jobs? Do you know anything about that?
A. I don't know anything. I didn't move away from my house at all, so I don't know.
Q. And is it true, since you are speaking about the area around Knin, aren't you, that in mid-1990, there were many threats by various armed groups, threats made to Serbs who then started arming themselves for their own safety? 25028 BLANK PAGE 25029
A. I don't know that.
Q. And is it true that some units of Territorial Defence had been formed by local Serbs but also by local Croats who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia? Do you know about that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Well, do you know anything at all about the disarming of police stations in the Knin Krajina?
A. No.
Q. Very well. As in paragraph 2, you also mention the Plitvice lakes. Do you know what happened there?
A. I did mention the Plitvice lakes when Jovic was killed. That is, I heard he had been killed.
Q. Do you know what happened at Plitvice?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know that there was a battle there between the ZNGs and the local Serbs?
A. I didn't see it.
Q. But you mentioned the Serb referendum. Do you know anything at all about the circumstances under which the Serb referendum was held?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know that the Serbs from your area voted in favour of the referendum?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You say here: "I knew that all the Serbs in my area voted for at the referendum." 25030
A. I don't know that either.
Q. I'm quoting from what is stated in your statement.
A. You know best.
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, you are testifying here, and I'm quoting from your statement. You say that you don't know what is written in your statement.
A. I do know what is written in my statement.
Q. You say that you knew that all the Serbs in your region voted in favour at the referendum?
A. For the Serb Krajina.
Q. I didn't quite understand you.
A. They were in favour of the Serb Krajina.
Q. So you know that all the people in your area voted in favour?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And you voted but with an empty ballot paper; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what others did too?
A. No, they didn't. The Serbs voted too, and then the vote was repeated, and that is when I threw in an empty ballot paper.
Q. Was then a community of communes of northern Dalmatia and Lika formed?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. And do you know that this referendum that you called a Serb referendum was held because the Serb amendments to the new Croatian constitution were not accepted?
A. I don't know that. 25031
Q. So you don't know what the referendum was about?
A. I don't know.
Q. And do you know that later on a declaration was adopted on the autonomy of the Serb people in Srb on the 25th of July, 1990?
A. I don't know.
Q. And do you remember, at least the public in the area in which you lived were aware of this, that a referendum was called on the cultural autonomy of Serbs in Croatia held on the 19th of August?
A. I don't know when it was held.
Q. And you didn't take part in it?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. So you didn't take part in the Croatian referendum either?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You describe how soldiers arrested your son.
A. Yes.
Q. And is it true that the persons who arrested him were wearing uniforms of the Territorial Defence and that they were locals?
A. They were not locals. They were from the Yugoslav People's Army.
Q. You say in point 4 that you knew that some of them from the Territorial Defence because TO members wore black jackets and black police uniforms. Some such uniforms were borne by some of them. And it says this in paragraph 4. They searched the house, arrested your son.
A. They were wearing military uniforms of the JNA.
Q. Very well, Mr. Marjanovic. You know that the Territorial Defence wore such uniforms. 25032
A. Afterwards, that Serb Krajina people who were in black, they were policemen. I saw then as they were passing through the village.
Q. Tell me, is it true that they released him 15 days later?
A. Yes, they did and then they said he could either go to the army or to do forced labour, and until the Operation Storm, he was doing labour, and then they ordered him to drive the Serb families and my wife was there too because she was scared of the Mujahedin. When I came back from Kordunski Ljeskovac, I didn't find anyone.
Q. So what you say, that he had to choose either between the army labour, did this apply to both Serbs and Croats and everyone else?
A. The Serbs were in uniform, where the Croats went to do forced labour.
Q. Please explain to me now when you went to bury those bodies and you said that this man was furious that it had happened, and since he was furious that such an act had taken place, and as you had been engaged to bury them on that occasion, was any reference made as to who had done it?
A. Kotur himself told me, "You see, my Ivan, how the Serbs killed these people, and now the Croats are going to bury my neighbours."
Q. Did he tell you who did it?
A. No, I don't -- no, he didn't, nor do I know to this day who did it.
Q. And those men who were taking you there, were they locals, people you knew in person?
A. Rade Gravora [phoen] who was driving, he put Mihic Stanislav, Marjanovic Ivan and Crnkovic Ratko in the car, and whereas I and he 25033 travelled alone in a blue Skoda.
Q. Now, these men who took you there to do this, they were all locals that you knew, were they?
A. Yes, I knew them.
Q. And when you describe the guards who were standing there and you knew them by name and which village they were from?
A. Yes, Muskinja, all three brothers.
Q. And you say, and this is in paragraph 8, they were brothers from Nova Krslja, Dujo, Milan, Dane.
A. True.
Q. So they were locals, and yet you claim that they were members of the JNA.
A. They were.
Q. Do you know that JNA uniforms could be obtained by anyone who did his military service and who had a uniform to keep at home?
A. I don't know about that, because I didn't see it.
Q. Very well. As they were all locals and you knew all of them and even their first and last names, is it clear to you that JNA units, that is JNA members did not serve in their place of residence?
A. Yes, I do know, but in this case they did.
Q. So the fact that they were wearing those uniforms, isn't that proof that they were not JNA but local Territorial Defence?
A. I didn't know about any local defence. I only saw them once putting on uniforms and that's it.
Q. And when did they put on uniforms? 25034
A. When they were given the order to do so.
Q. I'm asking you for the time. When was this? When did this happen when they got those orders?
A. Well, as of 1991 they were in uniform already.
Q. When in 1991?
A. In 1991, straight away. January, February, they were already in uniform.
Q. All right. Tell me since you say it was in October, November 1991 that the members of the JNA came from Serbia, from Montenegro to your village.
A. They did.
Q. All right. At that time, Yugoslavia was still in existence and the JNA too?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, I will quote from your point 11. "Sometime between October and December 1991, I saw reinforcement brought to our region including tanks. They shot at Rakovica and Grabovac from artillery weapons but never at my village."
A. No.
Q. "I also remember that at that time, units came from Serbia and Montenegro. Soldiers came by my house to my farm, and they would say they were coming from Serbia and Montenegro."
You mentioned that there were also soldiers from Macedonia judging by the language they spoke?
A. Yes. I saw people from Macedonia with Milan Popovac. They had 25035 come to search my son's house. And those from Serbia came to my house and asked me, "Come on, Ivan. Are there any Croats here for us to slaughter?" And I said, "Well, I'm a Croat. And they said, "How can we slaughter you? You are a real man."
Q. How come you failed to mention that in your statement. You didn't say that somebody asked you, "Are there any Croats to slaughter here?" Do you mean to say that they had come from Serbia to slaughter Croats?
A. Well, that's what they told me. They were your volunteers.
Q. Wait a minute. Tell me, were they members of the JNA or volunteers? Make your choice.
A. Well, they were wearing those uniforms, and they had caps on their heads from Serbia, and they were wearing those clothes.
Q. If you say they were wearing headgear from Serbia, it could not be part of the JNA uniform.
A. They were not all dressed the same, but they had these clothes of the JNA.
Q. Now, what were these caps that you mention now?
A. I mean the broad cap. You know what headgear from Serbia is.
Q. You mean the Serbian sajkaca cap? That was not part of the JNA uniform.
A. At any rate, they were volunteers from Serbia.
Q. And you concluded that based on what they told you themselves, on their say-so?
A. Well, I said I was there to defend my area.
Q. And what did the people from Macedonia say? 25036
A. They didn't say anything. They were with Milan Popovic when they came to arrest people around the village.
Q. Was this happening at the time when the JNA in 1991 still consisted of Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and all the other nationalities?
A. Yes. It was at that precise time.
Q. We're talking 1991.
A. At that time, it was the Yugoslav army, and it had members from Macedonia and every other end of the country including Croatia.
Q. So from all areas.
A. Yes.
Q. But they didn't hurt you?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. And nobody else in your village?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. And you didn't go any further from your village?
A. No, because I was ordered not to go anywhere, not even the shop around the corner.
Q. Tell me just one more thing. They ordered your son to drive Serbs after Operation Storm or during Operation Storm. That was part of those Serb refugees fleeing the area.
A. It was on the 4th of August, 1991.
Q. Did they hurt your son in any way? Did anyone beat him? Did anyone harass him?
A. When he was taken to Zeljava and later to Ruma, nobody beat him. 25037
Q. And he was free to return from Ruma to your village?
A. Yes. He came to a neighbour originally from my village who was later married to a man from Ruma. She accommodated him at her place for two months and then he went to Belgrade. And the woman told him, "I'm happy to keep you for three months if you like."
Q. Do you have any explanation for the fact that he didn't return immediately?
A. I suppose he couldn't. I suppose it took time for him and his wife to obtain a passport. He didn't explain it.
Q. Where did he get his passport?
A. In Belgrade.
Q. So he went to Belgrade, went to the appropriate authorities, got his passport, and returned home?
A. My wife's sister lived there because her husband lives there. They helped him get all these documents and then he returned home.
Q. All right, Mr. Marjanovic. Thank you very much.
A. You're welcome.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
Q. [Interpretation] Out of these 40 people who left this area where they had lived in 1991, did anyone return?
A. They are coming back. They are coming back.
Q. No. I'm asking you did anyone come back?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that there were only four houses which were occupied 25038 BLANK PAGE 25039 again. Did anyone come back?
A. Rajic came, Milan Bozic will come back and the rest of them will come back too.
Q. Apart from this one person, has anyone come back by now? I believe you that they will come back.
A. Four families will come back to Kordunski Ljeskovac.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, just one question. Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
Q. Mr. Marjanovic, when Mr. Milosevic -- when Mr. Milosevic referred to the fact that none of the Croat villagers in Nova Krslja were killed, you mentioned that good neighbours saved you. How were you saved and from what?
A. Good neighbours saved me. When I was there in the village, they had their own village guard, and they always told me, "Don't you be afraid of anyone." Milan Bozic, Savo Bozic, Ilija Kovacevic, Ilija Kolundzija, and so on.
Q. And you're referring to Croats or Serbs?
A. Serbs.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's it.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Marjanovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much too.
[The witness withdrew] 25040
JUDGE MAY: Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I understand you've got another witness who you want to call today.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's -- this witness has to return this weekend to his place, otherwise he will have difficulties with his employer.
JUDGE MAY: Well, that may be, but it might have been an idea to call him instead of the last witness.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But the last witness also had a problem, because his wife is sick and he himself suffered from the weather here because he has a heart condition. So we actually were faced with that situation.
JUDGE MAY: Very well.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And we actually did not expect the delay, unfortunate delay. We would request that the legal argument be postponed until Monday.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will postpone that until Monday morning, but we'll deal with it first thing on Monday morning, and we'll see how much of this witness's evidence we can get through. Call the next witness if you would.
Is there an application that we've got to deal with in closed session, private session.
MR. KHAN: The Chamber has a protective measures application which we'd be grateful if it could be addressed before the witness is called.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into.
MR. KHAN: Private session, please. 25041
JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session to do so.
[Private session]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[Open session]
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Khan, remember you're addressing a Court, please.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're in open session. We must prepare for the protective measures.
JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, while we are waiting, I would like to see a map upon which appears the village of Lipovaca.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we have actually -- we are in preparation for a map showing all the crime scenes within the municipality map of Croatia, and I think it will be available on Monday.
JUDGE KWON: Thank you. So it was a mistake when Mr. Grujic 25042 referred to as Lipovanic.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And actually we have already in our pre-trial brief indicated that there is this mistake in the indictment, that it is a misspelled name of the village and we will amended the indictment as soon as the -- our evidence is in and correct all those minor differences.
JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: If the witness would take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
WITNESS: WITNESS B-1097
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Khan.
MR. KHAN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to introduce a pseudonym sheet for this witness. If it could kindly be taken over to the witness.
Examined by Mr. Khan:
Q. B-1097, can you please confirm that that is, in fact, your name on that sheet and that you've signed it?
A. Yes, it is me.
MR. KHAN: May I please request that this be placed before the Court.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. In fact, have we not got copies? 25043
MR. KHAN: Yes, Your Honours. It should be in the exhibit bundle.
JUDGE MAY: In the clip that we have, should we deal with the exhibit numbers maybe could be --
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 512, with the pseudonym sheet marked under seal.
MR. KHAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
Q. Witness, can you please confirm that you gave a statement before investigators of the Office of the Prosecution between 15 the and 16th December, 1997?
A. Yes, I do confirm that.
Q. And, witness, was this statement certified before members of the Tribunal 11th of March, 2003?
MR. KHAN: Could the witness kindly be shown a copy.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
MR. KHAN:
Q. Could you please speak into the microphone, witness.
A. Yes, I gave this statement, and I confirm that it is my statement.
JUDGE MAY: The exhibit number.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour --
MR. KHAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
THE REGISTRAR: -- 513.
MR. KHAN: Your Honours, this witness's statement has been introduced by 92 bis, so I propose to read a brief summary of that statement.
Now, at the time that the incidents were mentioned, the witness 25044 was 32 years old and was living in Zvornik. The village he was living in was an entirely Muslim village.
Now, in May, the Muslim Territorial Defence had some clashes with the Serbians, and he was a part of those attacks but merely in support. Shortly after that, a unit from Serbia arrived in the witness's village whom the witness believes were Arkan's men, and those men gave him and the other villagers an ultimatum to surrender. After receiving the ultimatum, the male villagers held a meeting and decided to surrender all their weapons. There were about 92 weapons in total, and all of these were surrendered.
Things then remained relatively calm for the next two to three weeks. However, on the 31st of May, pursuant to a meeting between the SDS of the village of Petkovici and the local Muslim leaders of his village, it was agreed that the villagers would travel to Tuzla where they would be exchanged with a number of Serbs who were there ready for that purpose. The villagers arrived in Klisa, and the next day, the 1st of June, they formed a column in twos, which was about two kilometres in length. Now, this column consisted of men, women, and children, and was escorted along by soldiers wearing camouflage uniform, and they travelled on foot to Bijeli Potok.
Now, when the column reached Bijeli Potok, the men were divided from the women and children, and the men were then severely beaten with baseball bats, thick cables, police bats and other similar implements. The witness also observed the Zvornik police commander at this time together with soldiers in red berets. 25045 The male population were then loaded onto trucks. In his truck, about a hundred people were squeezed in, and there was a decapitated body on the floor. These trucks then set off, the witness believed to Tuzla. In actual fact, they arrived outside the Karakaj Technical School in Zvornik.
On arrival, the males were ordered to get off the trucks and were marched towards the hangar next to the school. They had to walk through two lines of local Serbs dressed in olive green uniform where once again they were severely beaten by baseball bats, police bats, rifle butts and all manner of implements. The witness was personally beaten black and blue.
His group were one of the first to arrive in the hangar, and there were about 300 to 400 of them in total. Within a few hours, this group swelled to about 600. They were packed in the hangar like sardines. The air was very dry and hot, and the elderly people began fainting. The number increased to about a thousand.
The detainees were managed to break into a small room to turn tap on for water and also broke open a hydrant. They were able to drink this water which was mixed in blood through shirts.
They then tried to get out of the hangar but they were kept back by the local Serb guards who were firing over their head. A bag was passed around and they were made to put in watches and other valuables. After a time the witness, along with other detainees, were lined up where they were forced to go to a table and again surrender their valuables. On that table, the witness saw thousands of DMs, watches, jewellery, and 25046 other valuables.
The witness and his father and his brother-in-law had tried to delay entering the second room because they could hear the beating and moaning of those inside, and they'd hoped that this would abate. However, eventually they had to go through, and he was hit so hard on the back of the head that he actually fell unconscious.
They were then made to sit on the floor and keep down with their heads bowed, and various members of them were taken by the local guards into the other room. Although he couldn't see who was beating them, he could hear the beatings by the cries and screams. He spent about three days in total in that hangar, and while he was there, he saw about 50 dead bodies in the room from which he was originally held. Two detainees tried to commit suicide, so atrocious were the conditions, by biting through an electric cable. However, they failed to do this and were shot. Indeed, on one occasion a local Chetnik duke entered the hangar and demanded to be given 300 balijas. He was only given ten. None of these ten ever returned.
A JNA officer had come and told them that they would be exchanged. He still harboured this thought. Eventually, he was able to leave the hangar when he was ordered to go and collect a firearm which he'd held at a factory where he used to work. He was escorted by a guard and a local policeman from Loznica in Serbia. There upon, he was able to make arrangements to escape. When he escaped, he only weighed 54 kilogrammes. During his stay in the hangar, the food was inadequate and hardly anyone got any water to drink. 25047 Now, that is the essence of the statement made by the witness, and --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Khan, just deal with this. You haven't given a year. You've given the various months, but not the year.
MR. KHAN: I haven't done that, Your Honour, because it's not actually mentioned in the statement, so I was going to ask that in viva voce testimony, if I may.
JUDGE MAY: Very well.
MR. KHAN: With Your Honours' permission, if I may just ask a couple of questions.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, certainly.
MR. KHAN:
Q. Witness, I will now ask you some questions, and if you could kindly answer those.
Now, you've heard the Chamber observe that they would like to know which year this was all happening in. Could you kindly tell the Chamber?
A. The 1st of June. That's when it happened. And on that same day or, rather, the day before, they told us that we had to go for an exchange, to be exchanged for Serbs in Tuzla. That's what they told us, that we would be going with our belongings, not to take anything else and that there were 7000 Serbs at the stadium, the Sloboda stadium, and that we were going to be exchanged and that's what we believed. And we started up in a column one by one or two by two up to Bijeli Potok--
Q. Would you kindly tell the Chamber which year we are talking about?
A. The 1st of June, 1992. 25048 BLANK PAGE 25049
Q. Thank you. I will now ask you some other questions. Now, whilst you were in the hangar, you mentioned in your statement that you were guarded. Now, were any of these guards from outside of Bosnia?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Could you tell me from where they came and how you knew this?
A. I don't know that, but I know that the active-duty officer was not from Bosnia, the one who called upon me to hand in my two official rifles. I know about him, and I know when I was travelling once from Sabac to Novi Sad, I recognised one of those guards who was sitting at the back of the bus. He had been in the camp, and he was a reservist, and I recognised him in that bus.
Q. Now, when you came to Bijeli Potok, you mentioned in your statement that the men were separated from the women. Now, where was your wife and sister and mother taken to?
A. When we arrived at Bijeli Potok, they said that the women or, rather, they separated the women and the children from the men, and the men were taken into buses and loaded up onto trucks, a hundred -- approximately a hundred men, and we were taken to Karakaj.
Q. Do you know where the women were taken to?
A. I learnt later on, 20 days later approximately, that they had in fact taken the women to Tuzla, or, rather, in the direction of Tuzla.
Q. And did you learn from any of the women whether, in fact, any Serbian people had been detained in Tuzla at that time?
A. Well, not a single one was at the stadium. We knew that then, and 25050 my wife confirmed it. I did have hopes, and I thought that was how it would be, but when my wife said that there was nobody at the stadium, then things became clear to me what it was all about.
Q. Now, you mention in your statement the various uniforms and attire which the guards were wearing at the hangar and who also came to collect you, and you also mention that a JNA officer visited you at the hangar. Now, can you please explain to the Court what led you to conclude that he was a JNA officer?
A. Well, he had rank insignia. I didn't dare look at him so I don't really know which ones. All I do know is that he did have some rank insignia. He was clean-shaven, wore an officer's uniform, whereas that wasn't the case with the local ones. They were wearing different clothes, and they were unkempt, unshaven, whereas this officer seemed to me to be somebody who had served in the JNA and was a proper officer, and he introduced himself and said he was a captain.
Q. Thank you.
MR. KHAN: I would now with the Court's permission, Your Honours, just like to go through a few of the exhibits which are attached.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you could do so fairly rapidly, Mr. Khan, because of the clock.
MR. KHAN: I will do my best, Your Honours. Exhibit 512. I'd initially like to show, with Your Honours' permission, the witness a map of Zvornik municipality which could kindly be given an exhibit number.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 343, tab 6.B1097.
MR. KHAN: Do Your Honours have copies? 25051
JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have it.
MR. KHAN:
Q. Witness, could you briefly explain where you started your journey and perhaps point out from where you travelled, on the map? Could you please provide the witness with a pointer so he could perhaps do that. If that could be shown on the ELMO. Thank you.
A. We started out in Klisa, in the direction of Djulici, taking the by-road. The column was about two kilometres long, about 2.000 people, probably more, but I'm not absolutely sure. And we got to Djulici, the asphalt road there, the Karakaj-Sapna road, and then we moved on the direction of Bijeli Potok which is about 700 metres from Djulici and it was on that bridge that they separated us, the women from the men. The women stayed there and we were loaded up onto trucks. And in that first truck were the locals including myself and Emin Selimovic from Radava. His body was there without a head, and his brothers established that later on.
Anyway, they loaded us up onto trucks and we took the direction in Jardan and we were taken in front of the Karakaj Technical Centre where we were met by a column of those local soldiers of Republika Srpska with the baseball bats, and that's where they started beating us. And we would move on one by one to the technical and sports centre.
Q. And could you please confirm that that was a map which you signed yourself and made the marking on?
A. Yes, it is the map, yes. That is the map, yes.
Q. Thank you. 25052
MR. KHAN: Can the witness please be shown tab number 2 of the exhibit.
THE REGISTRAR: Can Mr. Khan please clarify whether or not Tab 2 should be under seal, please.
MR. KHAN: There is no need -- yes. Actually, yes, because of the signature. Yes, please.
Q. Now, witness, could you please confirm that this was a drawing which you made and was attached to your statement?
A. I do confirm that it was a drawing I made, and my signature is there.
Q. And can you please explain to the Chamber the room where you were initially placed in and where the people suffocated?
A. At the entrance to the technical educational centre, into the hall there were some large doors like you would have on a garage, and we would go in one by one, but before that we were beaten with these baseball bats. And nobody could pass by without receiving a blow from the baseball bats or iron bars or whatever.
And at the entrance, as we entered the hangar, inside I would say there were about 100 to 200 people whom I didn't know from before. And we went in and every hour, others would arrive, truckloads of other people, and the number increased in the hangar.
Q. Sorry to interrupt, but could you just kindly identify to the Chamber the two parts of the room where you were held on the map, please. With use of the ELMO, please.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we cannot use the ELMO since it is an 25053 under seal document.
MR. KHAN: Okay. That's fine. We'll leave that. Thank you, witness.
Finally, can we please move to the next exhibit, please, which a list of names of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Karakaj Company.
Q. Witness, could you please tell us using the key on your pseudonym sheet, whether you recognise any of those people as guarding you whilst you were at the hangar?
A. A, B, C, D, and E.
Q. Thank you.
MR. KHAN: Just to clarify that tabs 3 and 4 are not under seal. And could I finally show the witness tab number 4, please, which is again a list, and these are a list of people who have been exhumed in the municipality of Zvornik.
Q. And I would ask the witness if he can identify any of those people as being held with him in the hangar and whether he saw any of them dead.
A. Number 2 -- do you want me to say the name? Do I have to say the name or not?
Q. [Previous translation continues]... sheet.
A. Number 2 then, number 4, number 8, number 15, number 18, number 28. That's all.
Q. Thank you.
MR. KHAN: That would conclude the evidence in chief. Thank you, Your Honours.
[Trial Chamber confers] 25054
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, how long do you think you might be in cross-examination with this witness?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As you have ruled that he should be a 92 bis witness, I counted on it taking at least one hour.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll make a start now. We can sit until 2.00. It may be then we will have to adjourn the witness, and I'm afraid we shall have to ask him to come back sometime, but let's make a start with the cross-examination.
Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Before I move on to the actual questions or concrete questions, Mr. 1097, I heard a moment ago from you and also from Mr. Khan and from many other various witnesses, I don't know how many, how frequently people were beaten up with baseball bats. Perhaps that appears to them to be quite logical, though you yourself have mentioned it. Don't you think that to be illogical for you and me? Did anyone ever see a baseball bat in Eastern Bosnia? Where were all these baseball bats held in Eastern Bosnia?
A. They were there where I was present and where I saw them with my own eyes, truncheons and baseball bats.
Q. Police batons exist, but I think this whole story of baseball bats is a pure fabrication. You're claiming that somebody beat you with baseball bats.
A. Yes, they did, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. And when you were now shown in the exhibit under seal so you couldn't read out the names, you read out the names of a certain battalion 25055 of a certain company, and you recognised certain names. Were they all locals, those that you recognised?
A. No, they were not. They were people from Serbia as you have already heard.
Q. How did you recognise them?
A. I said that I travelled with one of them on a bus, and I know the other one as an officer. He introduced himself as such, and he negotiated an exchange for us. He introduced himself as an active-duty officer, because among the locals, there were no people who could compare with him in that respect.
Q. Very well. We will come to that later. Mr. 1097, you say that you didn't notice any tension right up until the conflicts in Bijeljina occurred. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. But as far as I can gather from your statement, you didn't live in Bijeljina, did you?
A. I did not.
Q. You speak about certain barricades that were set up there. You mentioned barricades, don't you?
A. Yes, there were barricades.
Q. Tell me, since you mentioned barricades, did you have any knowledge as to who erected those barricades?
A. Every village had them in those days, both Serbian and Muslim barricades, in every village.
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the question. 25056
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, I did not live in Bijeljina. I don't know, and I couldn't give you an answer.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. The events that had taken place up until then, that is prior to the time you indicate as being the beginning of tension with the barricades in Bijeljina, did any incidents prior to that, before the internal conflict broke out in the republic itself, were there any events when the victims of any paramilitary units and armed groups were Serbs.
A. I don't know of any.
Q. You don't know anything about that?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. But I see that you were very active. You remember in 1991, events in Kostajnica on the 25th of August then on the 13th of September; then in Brod, the 15th and 16th of September, 1991; then on the 27th of November, Bosanski Samac; the 28th of November, location Lugovi, close to Samac, Gradiska, Brod, Sijekovac 26th of March 1992. These are all dates that are earlier than the events you testify about.
Do you anything about those attacks, including the incursion of regular Croatian forces into Northern Bosnia?
A. I know absolutely nothing about it, and I hear of it for the first time now.
Q. Very well. And did you know anything about how this conflict in Bijeljina started?
A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic. I didn't hear because we had no electricity, so I don't know. 25057
Q. All right. All right. I'm not surprised by your answer. It's the answer I've become accustomed to.
Now, tell me, please, you stopped working at that time. How did you know those barricades were erected and why, in fact, did you stop working? On whose orders did you stop working?
A. I stopped working on the 1st of June, the day I was taken into the camp. But before that, the Territorial Defence, when they came to the place, they banned us from working. They prohibited us from working. And after a certain period of time, they gave us back our official weapons. And when they withdrew, they returned our official pistols to us, and we continued working until the whole village surrendered its weapons. So I was working normally until I was taken to the camp.
Q. Which Territorial Defence?
A. The Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Q. In point 2 of your statement, you say, "When the barricades were erected, we stopped working, and that is when the people from the Territorial Defence arrived." Is that right?
A. Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I understand I mustn't use the name of the village; is that right?
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. That this was one of the few free villages in the area, because it had only two Serb households, and when Zvornik was occupied, as you say, 25058 BLANK PAGE 25059 the Serbs surrounded the village. Is that your testimony?
A. It is. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you recall that on the 5th of April, which is earlier than this, as far as I understand it, in the village of Sapna in your municipality of Zvornik, that forces which you mention, that is, the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and perhaps also some other forces such as the Patriotic League and the Green Berets, on the main road from Zvornik to Tuzla where barricades were held, where they manned barricades, they blocked the passage of the vehicles of the reserve forces of the JNA that was withdrawing and opened fire on them, when Sergeant Mika Stanojevic was killed and several people in the vehicles wounded. Do you remember that?
A. No, I don't, but that is also proof that they were regular units from Serbia. You yourself said that now.
Q. I was talking about the reserve forces that were withdrawing to Serbia, that were ambushed and killed. They were just being transported. They were not attacking anyone. This was the time when the JNA was withdrawing from Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was on the 5th of April?
A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. Before the recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina they were withdrawing. You know nothing about that?
A. No, I know nothing about it.
Q. And do you remember that somewhat before this event when fire was opened on these men, that is in mid-March, 1992, without any cause or provocation, five Serb young men were arrested in the hamlet of Sahmani [phoen], Donja Kamenica, and they were interrogated by Avdija Omerovic -- 25060
JUDGE MAY: If we're going to have all this detail, Mr. B-1097, do you have any idea about anything the accused is talking about?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely nothing.
JUDGE MAY: Move on to something else then.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. And is it true -- very well, Mr. May. I will move on to something else.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Is it true that already then the Patriotic League was active, and the organiser for the region was Samir Misovic, who was known as Captain Almir?
A. I hadn't heard of that, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. In Kula Grad, above Zvornik?
A. As movement was not allowed, Mr. Milosevic, I didn't leave the village. I couldn't leave it, so I don't know that. I didn't hear about it.
Q. And do you know that as early as January 1992, when movement was not restricted, on the streets of Zvornik, various criminals could be seen more and more frequently wearing police uniforms and then also fighters for the faith, as they were known, led by well-known Zvornik criminal Mithad Grahic, and that unit was known as the Mosque Doves, Dzamiski Golubovi [phoen]? Do you remember that when you were free to move?
A. Yes, we were free, but this is the first I hear of it.
Q. I see. The first time you hear of it. And do you remember that within the area of Zvornik, a paramilitary group was formed known as the Kobras under the command of a certain Suljo who used to be a teacher 25061 before the war, and his real name is Sulejman Terzic?
A. Mr. Milosevic, I know the name, but I hear this for the first time, because, Mr. Milosevic, I wasn't there at the time already. So I know the name, but I don't know what he did.
Q. And he had this nickname Kobra?
A. That may have been his nom de guerre, Mr. Milosevic. He didn't have that nickname before.
Q. Do you know somebody who was later commander of the Zvornik Brigade of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
A. I know the name, but what position he's held, I don't know, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. Tell me, please, is it true that the bloodshed in Zvornik started on the 8th of April, 1992?
A. I don't remember the exact date, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. And do you remember or, at least I assume you heard on the radio, that the BH Presidency, without Serb representatives, adopted a decree on the formation of the republican staff of the TO?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And is it true, Mr. 1097, that the immediate cause for the conflict in Zvornik was the mobilisation of the Muslim militia ordered by the president of the municipality and a representative of the Party of Democratic Action, a former dentist, Abdulah Pasic and Nedzad Sabic, commander of the municipal TO staff? Do you know these people and are you aware of their orders?
A. No, I don't know them. 25062
Q. The latter was later commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade of --
JUDGE MAY: All of this is besides the point. What is the point of all this? Was there any mobilisation? Let's ask the witness a question he can answer. Was there any mobilisation in your own village?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir, there was no mobilisation.
JUDGE MAY: And what was the cause -- no. Better, was there any conflict in your village?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no conflicts.
JUDGE MAY: And you were all taken off to the Karakaj Technical School.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, Mr. May, as you are putting those questions to the witness, I have to remind you of paragraph 4, at the very beginning of your statement where it says that a group of armed people from the Muslim TO under the command of Hajrudin Mesic came in May to his village. So you're asking whether there was mobilisation or not. Here we have reference to an unit of the Muslim Territorial Defence.
JUDGE MAY: Ask him about that. That's something you can ask him about and he can answer.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just asked him that and all the questions he testifies to have to do with Muslim forces and I enumerated various ones and then you asked him whether anything was in his village, whether anything was going on.
JUDGE MAY: You have put a series of assertion and allegations, 25063 typically on your side of what you claimed happened. It's purely your side of it; he's not confirmed it. There's not a word of truth as far as he's concerned in it.
Now, what you can ask him about, of course, is what's in his statement because of course he can answer that. It would be much more to the point to ask that.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. So paragraph 4 of your statement, that refers to the Muslim Territorial Defence that came to your village in May, and when you refer to the activities that were taking place at the time, does this speak for the mobilisation of these Muslim forces and the conflicts that they provoked in that region or not? Because you said in answer to everything else I said that you didn't know.
A. No. This was an organised unit that arrived. You can call it a brigade or whatever, but we, in the village, were not organised. We didn't have any organisation. That is why they came, because we were provoked, fire was opened at us, half the village had already moved to another area, and from Serb positions they were opening fire on Muslim houses from anti-armour launchers, et cetera. So they came to liberate the village.
Q. A moment ago, you said nothing was happening in the village, that nothing was happening and the unit came to liberate you. From whom?
A. The Serbs were holding positions on the hill and opening fire at the village and on the houses during the day and the night, so half the 25064 households had already moved to another village, and that is why they came.
Q. Very well. Mr. 1097, is it true that various Muslim paramilitary groups at night attacked the suburbs of Zvornik, looted and attacked houses? Do you remember the attack of the 17th of April on the Serbian village of rash to have notes an in Zvornik municipality, not to quote the names of the people killed, and the village burnt and looted? Do you remember that?
A. Mr. Milosevic, that's 50 kilometres away. I already told you that we were blocked, that it was difficult and risky to move about, so I don't know about that.
Q. Do you know about attacks on the Serbian village of Boskovici? That happened on the 5th of May, 1992.
JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. It's a complete waste of time. Unless you ask him about matters in his own area and his own village, you're going to get the same answer. We're just wasting everybody's time. In due course, if you want, you could put evidence in front of us, of course, but if it's relevant. But at the moment, considering the time is short, we don't really need to go through all of this.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that you do not wish, Mr. May, to hear about anything that was the cause of these events, but this witness comes from this area and testifies about the events in this area.
JUDGE MAY: He's just described to you that he knows nothing about 25065 what happened 50 kilometres away which you were putting to him. Now, let's move on.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Please, Mr. Khan, when he started, perhaps in the first sentences after the background and the formalities about his full name said, and I wrote it down, "In May, the Muslim TO had clashes with Serbs." Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. That happened. The attack was repelled, and the TO went back. They offered to take us with them. We refused. We didn't take any weapons, and we were left at peace for a couple of weeks. Correction, we surrendered our weapons.
Q. Mr. Khan said that after these clashes some Serbs came into your village, and I'm reading from point 9. You say: "I'm not sure, but I believe it was Arkan's men, and they set the ultimatum to surrender our weapons." So before that, came the clash of your forces with the Serb forces, and then some other Serbs came and told you to surrender your weapons; is that true?
A. The Crisis Staff said when the Serbs offered us peace in exchange for our weapons, we indeed surrendered 52 rifles. Arkan's men came, picked up the weapons and transported them away and we were left alone for a couple of weeks.
Q. You say yourself, "I'm not sure but I believe."
A. I still believe they were Arkan's men.
Q. All right. Is it true that before that, and you speak of this 25066 again in your own statement in para 4: These Muslim forces, that were referred to by Mr. Khan occupied the dam and the reservoir which collected waste waters from the Glinica factory; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And the members of those Muslim TO forces took up positions at the dam; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it further true that you were there too?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, then, is it then true that it was precisely these operations of the Muslim forces that caused those instances of internecine tension that I mentioned?
A. No, it's not true.
Q. So this was not supposed to be provoke any reaction, nor could it have been considered as any sort of violence, all these things that you have just confirmed?
A. No.
Q. I don't know whether these people's names are a secret as well, these two Muslims from your village whose name I won't mention. Did they tell you to turn over your two service pistols to members of the TO?
A. Yes.
Q. So these people who told you to hand over your pistols were Muslim?
A. Yes, but when I surrendered -- when we surrendered other weapons, I was given the pistols back. 25067
Q. Is it true that this commander of TO, Dzemail Spahic, brought about a hundred people to your village?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Is it true he was a former captain of the JNA?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true that among the Muslim soldiers he had two brothers?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true that about 30 of them were lodged at your house? They slept there?
A. Yes, because the houses were vacant. They used my house and other houses because we were not allowed to spend our nights there. They are the army. They are troops, and normally they were quartered there.
Q. In para 5, you say they attacked the Cilovo Brdo, a hill which is near your village. I won't mention its name. And they were helped by the people of Hajrudin Mesic, also a TO commander. Their attack started about 9.00 a.m., but the Serbs repelled it. So who attacked who here?
A. Well, at that time the TO attacked the machine-gun nest that was firing at the village. It was dangerous for us so they wanted to eliminate it. Two soldiers of the TO got killed there. They were not even pulled out that night, and the troops went back there offering to take us with them, to take us to the free territory. The Crisis Staff refused that, the Territorial Defence withdrew and only the locals remained in the village.
Q. All right. But is it true that this attack that started at 9.00 a.m. is one wherein you and half of all the men in your village 25068 BLANK PAGE 25069 participated?
A. We were not directly involved in that attack.
Q. Well, it says here at the end of the para 5, verbatim: "About 50 per cent of the men from my village, including myself, took part in the attack."
A. We were only security support for that attack, because we knew the terrain, and the attack was eventually repelled. They withdrew, and that night they went back to the free territory.
Q. I didn't ask you where they went back and when. This means that half of the men from your village, which you yourself said, took part in the attack, after the withdrawal of the non-locals from your village, remained there. The locals remained?
JUDGE MAY: In fairness to the witness, the whole sentence should be read. What it says is: "About 50 per cent of the men from my village joined the attack, including myself, but we just protected the soldiers' backs."
Yes.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in any military operation, there is the support from the rear, and all of them are nevertheless participants in that military operation. Who got which assignment is irrelevant.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And when you say about 50 per cent, it makes no difference. What I said in Serbian is about a half. In my Serbian version it says about a 25070 half, and I was reading from his statement, and it makes no difference at all.
JUDGE MAY: It's not the 50 per cent which is of any significance but the fact that he qualified the participation and did so in his original statement. That was the point.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Of course. And that participation is indisputable.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. And now I'm asking you why did you attack a Serbian village when only civilians were there?
A. It was not a Serbian village. There was not a single house in that position. It's a hill above our village, a hill overlooking our village, and they were using it to shoot at our village from.
Q. So what was it?
A. It was a Muslim village. They put a machine-gun up there on the hill and they were firing at our village, provoking us.
Q. Are you saying that they were provoking you into that attack?
A. Precisely, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. Tell me, please, is it true that these members of the Muslim Territorial Defence who returned your pistols threatened that they would blow-up the dam?
A. They talked on the telephone with those people in the Glinica factory. They were telling them that they would blow up the dam or something like that, but they didn't actually do it. As warning, they put -- they blew up something -- they blew up the pipes at the outlet into 25071 the dam.
Q. So at the entrance into the dam, when these wastes from the mine are released, they made an explosion and all this polluted water flew into the Sapna River?
A. There is no doubt about that, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. So you say that they were only warning you when they actually polluted the river. Is that a warning?
A. It was not enough to close up the dam. It's just red earth. It -- it's not acid or anything. It's simple red clay from the bauxite ore. It was no pollution.
Q. Yes, bauxite is an ore. Was there no reaction from the Serbian side even thought the television reported it too?
A. Yes. I watched that. The Serbs brought television crews, and I was present while they were filming. I saw that the television filmed this and they actually filmed the explosive, but explosive was never detonated. The dam was never blown up. They reported that there were two tons of explosives, and I was present there. I knew it was only about 20 kilos of explosives, and they said it was 2 tons.
Q. And they called it was 2 tons when it was 20 kilos?
A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
Q. So the fact that you say it was 20 kilos of explosives, you think it is perfectly all right, it's just that it never detonated?
A. I don't think it was all right.
Q. I have the impression that you didn't finish your sentence.
A. I have finished my answer, Mr. Milosevic. 25072
Q. So what the television filmed was when they were setting these explosives and that was a true event.
A. Yes.
Q. How is it possible for the television crew to film 20 kilos, show it on every screen, and call it 2 tons?
A. Well, they can do that because they brought sacks full of sawdust and they made it seem like there was a lot more.
Q. And you said only 20 kilos of explosives?
A. Not me, but those local people from the TO. Not me.
Q. After you surrendered your weapons to those men whom you say you were not sure but you believed to be Arkan's men, the situation was more or less normal and there were no provocations.
A. Right.
Q. That's what it says here anyway. And that lasted for three or four weeks with no provocation?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, please, did the first incident happen on the 31st of May, precisely when Omer Selimovic, who was one of the soldiers of the Muslim army, came to Klisa with other Muslim troops?
A. Right.
Q. Is that true?
A. It is true.
Q. Is it true that at the demarcation line there was shooting, very ferocious shooting?
A. That is absolutely not true. 25073
JUDGE MAY: It's now 2.00, and we must adjourn. The courtroom is required for another case.
Witness 1097, I'm afraid it means we haven't been able to finish your evidence. We hear that you can't be here on Monday. That's all right. But what we must do is ask --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can come back. I can.
JUDGE MAY: You can come back. Very well.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Monday morning then. If you would --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But on -- yes.
JUDGE MAY: What do you want to add? You can be here on Monday all right?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm not doing anything until Monday.
JUDGE MAY: Well, there will be half an hour more of cross-examination and there may be one or two questions. We will take that at 9.00, so you should be away at 10.00 on Monday. Would that be all right?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's all right.
JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Khan, perhaps you could -- we'll give you permission to speak to the witness just about that short matter, just to make sure he is all right for Monday. If not, he will have to come back some other time. But obviously if he could be here Monday, so much the better and we can finish the evidence.
MR. KHAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do that. 25074
JUDGE MAY: And don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over but you can have a word with the Prosecution just about your arrangements.
Mr. Groome, we'll take the argument which we've consistently failed to have. We will take it on Monday after we finish the witness.
MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of
July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.