Milosevic Transcript 2003-08-29

²⁵⁵⁹⁵

Friday, 29 August 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1054

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I begin the examination of this witness, there is a small administrative matter I'd ask to go into private session to address with the Court.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁵⁵⁹⁶

[redacted]

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

MR. GROOME: Your Honours, pursuant to an order of the Trial Chamber dated the 13th of July, 2003, granting the Prosecution's application for the admission of B-1054 -- I'm sorry, the 30th of July, 2003, granting the Prosecution's application for the admission of B-1054's testimony from the trial of Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic, case number 98-32, the Prosecution would like to formally tender one binder containing the transcripts and related exhibits comprising the evidence of B-1054. I would note that tabs 2, 7, 8, and 9 of that binder were exhibits that were placed under seal in the previous trial and would ask that that protection be continued.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, the binder will get the next exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 522, Your Honours.

MR. GROOME: May I ask to begin by requesting that the witness be ²⁵⁵⁹⁷ shown tab 2 of that binder. It is the pseudonym sheet from the prior proceeding.

Q. B-1054, is that your name contained on this sheet of paper?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Ms. 1054, the Chamber is in possession of your testimony and exhibits from your prior testimony from the Vasiljevic trial. I will not ask you to repeat that testimony. I would like to ask you to clarify in part and summarise some of the more significant aspects of that evidence. Your sworn testimony reveals that on the 10th of June, 1992, there was fighting in your village, the village of Koritnik, just north of the town of Visegrad at the homes of a number of Muslim residents in that village was fired upon. Shortly after the fighting, Serb neighbours of yours delivered a message to you and other Muslim members of your community. Can I ask you to tell the Chamber what that message was.

A. The message was that we should leave our village because our [redacted], told us that there was ethnic cleansing and that we had to move out.

Q. Your testimony continues with you and most of the Muslims from your village gathering the next day with as many of your possessions as you could carry and leaving the village toward the town of Visegrad. You went on further to describe an encounter at a crossroads during which several armed Serbs discussed whether to kill you there or in the town itself. You went on to testify that you arrived in the town at around 3.00 to 4.00 in the afternoon, and after trying to go to the Red Cross, you and the others congregated in front of the Hotel Visegrad. You went ²⁵⁵⁹⁸ on to describe how after approximately an hour, you were instructed to go to Pionirska Street in a now empty Muslim part of the town itself. You testified to eventually arriving and taking refuge in the abandoned house of Mr. Memic. I want to now ask you several questions regarding what happened in the Memic house. Can I ask you to begin by telling us how many people were in this group and what was its composition?

A. When we moved from the new hotel, when a Serb policeman told us to go to Pionirska Street, we arrived in front of Memic's house. There was a group of some 70 people, mostly elderly men and children and young girls. We were wet from the rain. We changed. Somebody had tea, somebody had coffee. And in the meantime, Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic arrived, as well as Sredoje Lukic and Milan Susnjar, also known as Laco, and they told us to go to one room. Then Milan Lukic put a cloth on the table telling us to put all our jewellery on that cloth. We did that, and then we were forced into another room where Milan Susnjar was, and he stripped us naked. We had to dance. They were giving instruction, move forward, move backward. Skip this way and that.

After that, we put our clothes on. And then they took out Jasmina Kurspahic, and Jasmina Vila. I don't know where they took them. When we asked them what happened, they wouldn't tell us anything when they came back as to what had happened to them.

Q. Did there come a time when the group was forced to move from this house to a house very close by, to a house owned by a family by the of name Omeragic?

A. After that, when they took all this from us and mistreated us, ²⁵⁵⁹⁹ then they -- then Milan Lukic who was standing at the door of Jusuf Memic's house, and Vasiljevic at the other house, and then we were escorted to Omer Memic's house. And at the end, we were burned shortly after that.

Q. Can you please describe what happened in the Omeragic house.

A. When we reached this Omeragic house, the carpets had been -- some oil or fuel had been poured on the carpets. And that is when they set fire to us. Amongst us was a two-day-old baby. The children were screaming. The women, the old men, were trying to help. I was right next to the window, and I threw out my 13-year-old son out the window, and then I followed him a couple of minutes later. Then I was wounded in my left arm and left leg. I went into the stream and the sewage canal where I stayed for three nights and three days.

Q. From where you were in the sewage canal, could you see what happened to the people in the house?

A. It wasn't far. It was about 50 metres away so that I heard screams, cries for help. It was unbearable. When I think about it, I start dreaming. I feel distressed and awful. It was terrible. It was painful.

Q. How many people are you -- can you estimate for us how many people died in the house that night.

A. There was us from our village, and others from the neighbouring villages, so there were about 70 of us. And then there were people already in that house when we arrived, so there may have been 75, maybe even more. I didn't count those people that were already there when we ²⁵⁶⁰⁰ arrived.

Q. How many members of your immediate family died that night?

A. Six of my family members died. My mother-in-law and onwards from that.

Q. After you threw your son out of the window of that house, did you know whether or not he had survived the events of that night?

A. I didn't know. I had no contact with him for five years. We met five years later in Zenica. And this was a terrible experience and a shock to see him five years later. We had parted when he was only 13 and a half.

Q. Did your son know that you had survived that night during the course of that five years?

A. No, he didn't know. He didn't know anything about me, nor did I know anything about him.

Q. Can you please briefly describe to the Chamber the injuries you sustained that night.

A. That night, while I was in the sewage canal, there were worms all over my wounds. I had wounds in my left arm and leg. When I reached the Gorazde hospital, I was in a sorry state.

Q. And finally after escaping from Visegrad, did you learn that this group had perpetrated a similar crime to another group of Muslim civilians in a house in Visegrad, without going into the detail of that event?

A. Yes, at the Bikavac, about 80 people were burnt by this same group. Again, these were civilians, elderly people and children.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions. If the ²⁵⁶⁰¹ Chamber will recall, Mr. Milosevic sought to ask an earlier witness some questions about Visegrad, in particular, the event of Murat Sabanovic and his threats to blow up a dam. The third witness today is the witness that the Prosecution has brought who has personal knowledge of those events. This witness doesn't, so perhaps that will save some time on the examination of this witness. I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you hear what counsel says. This witness does not know about the events you were asking the other witness about. However, there is a witness coming shortly who you can ask about those events.

Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that the witness has no knowledge about what Mr. Groome referred to. But the witness mentions in her statement the presence of certain units of the Uzice Corps, and this presence is linked to those events. So I will ask the witness indirectly something with regard to the event that Mr. Groome mentioned. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] So Witness 1054, you gave two statements to the investigators of the Tribunal, on the 12th and 13th of February, 1998. That is the first one. And the second one on the 15th of June, 2000. Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. In addition to these statements, you also gave a statement to the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the centre of security services in Zenica on the 14th of August, 1995 which was three years prior ²⁵⁶⁰² to this other first statement. Is that right?

A. I didn't give any statements in Zenica.

Q. It doesn't matter whether you made them in Zenica, but representatives of that centre in Zenica took a statement from you. I have that statement here, which you signed. [redacted]

[redacted]

JUDGE MAY: Let's go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Madam 1054, would you be kind enough to have a look at this statement, please, and to give it back to me because I have some questions to put to you about it. ²⁵⁶⁰³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁰⁴

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have several copies of that statement, to avoid it going from one hand to another. It was received from the Prosecution, and I prepared it for my own benefit, for my own questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have the copy in front of her. Are there any English translations for us?

MR. GROOME: I've just sent for them, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness B-1054, just have a look at that document. It's suggested that that's a statement which you made to -- I forget. I think it was the investigation centre in Zenica. Do you recognise it now?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my signature, but I don't remember making a statement to anyone in Zenica. In 1995?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Madam 1054, the fact that it says the centre in Zenica doesn't mean that you were taken to Zenica to make that statement. Probably an official person from that centre came to take the statement from you, and those officials persons are indicated. It says: "Statement taken by authorised official persons" and there are two signatures. The record taker and your own signature. "Statement given by Witness 1054," that is your full first and last name, and you confirm it with your signature. Isn't that so? Isn't that so?

A. Yes, yes, the signature is mine. But really for me to make a statement in 1995, I really don't know.

Q. I'm not claiming, nor could I know technically, how this happened, ²⁵⁶⁰⁵ whether they took you to Zenica or whether someone came to take the statement from you because this is a large area. I just wanted to establish whether this is your signature. So let's move on so as not to waste any more time, as I'm sure my time will be limited. On page 2 of your statement of the 12th of February, 1998, in the third paragraph, I'm talking about the statement to the investigators, you say that tensions in Visegrad could be felt as early as 1991, that barricades were set up, and that the fighting started in 1992. Is that right, Madam 1054?

A. Yes, yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please, who was erecting these barricades and who was fighting who in Visegrad and the environs?

A. The barricades were erected by our neighbour Serbs so that we couldn't go into town or leave, and so on.

Q. Tell me who the fighting was between.

A. Our neighbouring Serbs attacked our Muslim villages thinking that they would frighten us and force us to leave our own homes. They started looting and taking things away. We were attacked as Muslims.

Q. All right. But when you say "fighting" that implies two sides.

A. Fighting, meaning that the Serb side consists of those neighbours of ours who armed themselves, and they attacked us. Yes, it is basically two sides, but it is the case of neighbours attacking us who were innocent.

Q. All right. Mr. Groome mentioned that I should not ask you anything about other events, but do you have any knowledge at all as to ²⁵⁶⁰⁶ who are Murat Sabanovic and Avdija?

A. Well, they are people like any other people. Not animals.

Q. That much I can surmise myself.

A. They were men, and they had to fight to pull out the people who were left stranded on the other bank of the Drina. We had no choice except to get out, otherwise we would have been killed. We were forced by circumstances.

Q. Did they help you get out of there?

A. They didn't help us, but they fought to pull us out. The entire parish, which includes over 50 villages with Muslim population, there were only Muslim houses and a couple of Croat houses. There were no Serbs there.

Q. Except this Murat and Avdija Sabanovic who fought to pull you out, how many other men were there with them?

A. They were not fighting with rifles. They were fighting to pull us out of there. They didn't have weapons.

Q. So they didn't have weapons.

A. They didn't.

Q. Do you know apart from them, and you obviously know them, do you know Nedzad and Ibrahim Dervisevic, and Jasim Ferid [phoen]?

A. I don't.

Q. Do you know Zakija Jamuk [phoen] and Medo Kulovic?

A. No.

Q. Duro Subasic [phoen]?

A. I don't know him either. ²⁵⁶⁰⁷

Q. Do you know, and in fact you confirmed you knew the Sabanovic brothers, that in July 1991, they destroyed the monument Ivo Andric?

A. I wasn't in Visegrad then.

Q. You didn't hear about the destruction of the Ivo Andric monument?

A. No.

Q. Do you know who Ivo Andric was?

A. It was a monument to one man.

Q. Do you know that man whose monument was destroyed?

A. It was a great man.

JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this to the burning of civilians in a house? 70 of them. Are you saying there was a provocation of some sort, Mr. Milosevic? Otherwise, I cannot see what relevance it has.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in any case, the destruction of the monument of Ivo Andric, who is a writer, and the only Yugoslav Nobel prizewinner, a Serb, falls within the context of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this has to do with the context of events which were taking place throughout that time. And if it cannot certainly justify burning people inside a house, or any other crime, but it helps understand the context of facts, the context of mutual conflict based along ethnic lines because the monument Ivo Andric was destroyed because Ivo Andric was a Serb, not because of any other of his qualities. He, as I said, was the only Nobel Prize winner in the former Yugoslavia.

JUDGE MAY: That may or may not be so. But the difficulty is this witness's evidence deals with a specific event. If you've got questions ²⁵⁶⁰⁸ about that, she can no doubt answer them and deal with it as best she can. But to ask her generally about tensions in the area doesn't seem to me to assist your case. No doubt there were tensions in the area. But it's no defence to this kind of action which we're dealing with. That's the difficulty, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't even think that I have anything to defend myself from here.

Q. Mrs. 1054, what does this event have to do with Serbia at all? Was anyone from Serbia involved in this event?

A. Well, our Serb neighbours were involved. They attacked us. I didn't say that anybody from Serbia had come. It was our Serb neighbours.

Q. So Serbia is involved in the sense that those neighbours of yours were Serbs?

JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to answer. It may be a matter that we have to deal with in due course. All the witness can say, and you can ask her about this, is who was involved. And she tells you that the Serb neighbours were involved.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But since the witness, and I have to ask her this, Mr. May, regardless of the fact that you want to limit things to only one event from this entire context, the witness says that before the attack on the village, some units of the Uzice Corps had been in that area.

Q. You did mention that, Ms. 1054, didn't you?

A. Well, certainly Uzice troops had been in Visegrad, and they had entered in full military equipment. I didn't say that it was them who had ²⁵⁶⁰⁹ set us on fire.

Q. Yes, but I wanted to ask you, do you know that it was precisely this Murat Sabanovic, whom you know, and a large group together with him had occupied the plant of the Visegrad hydro power station? It was in all the papers, and you could have heard in public this conversation in which they threatened to blow up the hydro power station, which would have caused a tragedy in that whole area, both on the side that belongs to Bosnia and Herzegovina and on the bank that belongs to Serbia, involving a large number of Muslim and Serb villages. It would have caused a natural, I would say, disaster with unfathomable consequences. It would have caused the destruction of the dam and everything behind that dam.

A. That is not true.

Q. Okay, then. I wanted to ask you, because this actually happened and we had the opportunity to hear the conversation between this man and his superiors in Sarajevo, I wanted to ask you do you know that the army had come there to restore order and to prevent the tragedy that would have taken the lives of thousands?

A. It's not true the army had come to restore order. They had only misled people to return, people who had fled, and many more people eventually suffered. As for this conversation between this Sabanovic and others, I wasn't there. I don't know what was going on.

Q. You just said when the army came, people returned.

A. Yes, there were a lot of people who had fled from the environs of the town. And when the army came, they addressed people over the public-address system, and they said "it's safe." And people had come ²⁵⁶¹⁰ back, but later Drina was full of bodies floating in it and red with blood.

Q. Well, that is not true. The Uzice Corps said everybody was safe as long as we are here?

A. Well, that is not true. There are other people who can discuss it with you. Whether it was safe or not, I'm not in a position to say to you. I'm not in a position to say why they had come.

Q. You don't know that they had come to restore normality, normalcy, normal relations?

A. I don't know about that. Somebody who is more familiar with the details will be able to tell you, perhaps.

Q. But you do say very precisely in your statement: "My village" - this is paragraph 4 at the beginning of the statement - "my village was attacked by my own neighbours, not the Uzice Corps."

A. I never said the Uzice Corps had attacked us. But they were involved with our names, the Serbs who lived with us together in Visegrad.

Q. You mean to say there were units of the Uzice Corps in the area of Visegrad, then?

A. Yes. They must have come from Serbia.

Q. And you don't understand why they were there?

A. I don't understand. Somebody else will explain it to you.

Q. Do you have information about any crime whatsoever committed by any member of the Uzice Corps?

A. I don't have such information. Maybe somebody else does.

Q. Yes, but I'm asking you. ²⁵⁶¹¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶¹²

A. No, I can't tell you that.

Q. Fine. But you said here that it was your neighbours who attacked you. I suppose you know all their names, names of all these neighbours who launched this attack on your village.

A. Do you want me to list them?

Q. Not now. We'll come to that. You say in paragraph 6 on page 2 of the statement that "all the young men left the village before the attack and fled to the woods."

A. Yes. They had to hide, lest they be taken alive and tortured.

Q. All right. They ran into the woods. Did they know that there would be an attack and hid beforehand?

A. No, they were fleeing from the attack, and they were followed by a storm of bullets.

Q. Did you hear about Ahmed Sejdic?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. All right. Did you hear anything at all about these Muslim barricades and the mobilisation of residents, including from your village, under his command?

A. I don't know anything about that.

Q. Nothing at all. I don't see your husband mentioned anywhere in your statement. I don't want to mention his name because you are a protected witness, lest I identify you. Did he hide in the woods together with the other men?

A. Yes, he did, but you shouldn't think that they had any weapons. They were bare-handed. They had no weapons at all. They were hiding from ²⁵⁶¹³ a storm of bullets.

Q. Tell me: During the attack on your village on the 10th of June, the attack being mounted by your neighbours, did any of the residents get killed or wounded?

A. You mean the Serbs?

Q. No, I'm talking about the attack on your village. You said your village was attacked on the 10th of June?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anybody hurt then?

A. Nobody was hurt, but they did storm the village. They asked where the men were, and they started looting immediately.

Q. Did you know those men who came and started looting?

A. Of course I know them. They had lived with us in the same village for decades. Of course I know them.

Q. Were they from your village?

A. Yes, because Koritnik was next to a Serb village. There were Serbs and Muslims living next to each other.

Q. I understand that these Serb neighbours who took part in that attack were looking for the men from your village. Is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. How many people lived in Koritnik before the outbreak of the conflict?

A. I didn't count them. I know there were 80 houses populated by Muslims.

Q. How many men left the village before the attack, before the 10th ²⁵⁶¹⁴ of June?

A. Well, they wouldn't have fled at all if it hadn't been for another neighbour from another village who came crying to our village saying: "Please, run away, dear neighbours. If you are caught alive, you will be killed." I don't want to name the person. I don't want him to come to any harm.

Q. I'm not even asking you to name this neighbour who tried to help you. You mentioned in closed session at the beginning that a certain Grujic, Dusan Grujic, had come and told you that ethnic cleansing was going on and that you should hide.

A. Yes.

Q. Did he use those words, "We are carrying out ethnic cleansing and you should run for cover"?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. All right, Ms. 1054. On page 2, paragraph 8, you said that two or three days later, the soldiers came back and surrounded the village. Is that so?

A. Yes, they surrounded it again.

Q. You said two or three days later, they came back and surrounded the village.

A. They didn't surround it. They came to tell us that we should move out of our houses. They came right to the village.

Q. Very well. I only wanted to remind you. You say: "Two or three days later, the soldiers came back and surrounded the village. They told us again we had to surrender our ²⁵⁶¹⁵ weapons, and the men had to surrender." On that occasion, the following people came to the village, and you enumerate, Milorad Lipovac, Ciro, and Dusan Grujic. Dusan said that ethnic cleansing was being carried out and we had to leave. He said he would take us to Kladanj and put us up there, that we should take a supply of food for two days. We were not verbally or physically abused.

So they had come back after the attack because you say it was two or three days later.

A. You've just asked me that question.

Q. I'm asking this because in the transcript of your testimony mentioned by Mr. Groome, you were asked by their side whether the people who had mounted the attack had come back two or three days later. And on page 1423 of the transcript, you replied: "They never came back to the village. They did not dare to come back." That's what you said. And it says so in the transcript.

So tell me now what is the truth? What it says in your statement about their coming back or what you testified to, as I quoted, from the transcript, that they never came back and they did not dare to?

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The transcript goes on: "Did there come a time when soldiers came back and surrounded the village?" "They came looking again, but we were hiding in the woods." "Did there come a time when you were told that you had to leave the village?" And so it goes on. So that's the complete passage from the transcript. Yes, Witness 1054, do you want to add anything to that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. ²⁵⁶¹⁶

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Regardless of whether they came back or not, tell me what was it they were looting, because you stated previously that the village had been looted earlier on.

A. Everything they could get out, they did get out of the houses. They also took away the cattle right in front of us. They boarded it on tractors, TV sets and so on.

Q. All right. But you said before that in your statement that previously the village had been looted. So how could they loot it twice then?

A. It wasn't twice. It was once as we were getting ready to go. When this neighbour, Dusan Grujic came and told us there would be ethnic cleansing, they came on the same day with tractors and took our stuff on that.

Q. Was there any looting before that?

A. No, not before that. There was intimidation. They wanted to scare us. They wanted to make us leave.

Q. All right. So before that, there was no looting, is that right, Ms. 1054?

A. Yeah, that's right.

Q. Why did you write in your statement, then, and this in paragraph 3 of your statement: "Before the attack in my village, the Uzice Corps was there, and they were looting and plundering. I can't be precise about the dates, but they were there before the 10th of June, 1992." Why did you accuse the soldiers of the Uzice Corps of having looted your village when ²⁵⁶¹⁷ you said that later on it was these people who looted your village?

A. I said a few minutes ago, as far as the looting of the Uzice Corps is concerned, there are other people who can explain this a bit better than I can.

Q. But I'm reading your very own statement, not this other person who can explain it a bit better. So what you wrote down here that they looted you and plundered, people from the Uzice Corps, before the 10th of June, so that's not true?

A. It is true, and it will be known, when they came, what they did, and everything.

Q. But that does not match what you're saying now when you say that they came after the 10th of June, and that's when they plundered.

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that matter. Yes, let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. On the second page, the person you mentioned who said to you - I wrote it down - Dusan Grujic, that ethnic cleansing was being carried out, and then you say that he told you that you were supposed to go. Did he wear some kind of a uniform then or did he wear civilian clothes?

A. Yes, it was a uniform.

Q. Oh, so he wore a uniform?

A. Yes.

Q. And when he said this to you, that this was ethnic cleansing, did you understand what this was all about? Did you know what ethnic ²⁵⁶¹⁸ cleansing was?

A. Well, as far as I could understand it, and all of us who were present there, of course, ethnic cleansing meant that we should not exist there at all and that we should not live together the way we lived beforehand.

Q. Oh, I see. So that's the word he used, this is the expression he used, that they would carry out ethnic cleansing?

A. Well, I guess I did not invent it. I think that's exactly what he said, that word.

Q. But they did not mistreat you or abuse you when they said then there would be ethnic cleansing. Nobody mistreated you or abused you; is that right?

A. Well, no. He and Milorad Lipovac who came with him, the two of them didn't. But then we paid with our very own skins when we went down to town.

Q. I'm not asking you about that event now, I'm asking you about this: So nobody touched you and that's what they said to you, that's what you're saying and you say that they told you that ethnic cleansing was being carried out?

A. Yes, and Aisa Kurspahic gave him the keys to her house. He said: "You'll give me the keys to your house".

Q. And you obeyed them and the next morning you left the village?

A. Yes, of course you had to obey. We left under duress. I mean, who would have left his own home and everything he had unless it was under duress? ²⁵⁶¹⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶²⁰

Q. They were not forcing, they were not mistreating you, they were not threatening you, they were not shooting anyone, they were not beating anyone? Is that right?

A. Well, that day there was no shooting, of course there wasn't any shooting on that day, but they did attack before that and you had to go.

Q. All right. Did you inform your husband in any way that you were leaving your house and that you were going?

A. Why would I inform my husband when they informed us, our neighbours did. They informed all of us that we all had to go. It wasn't information on an individual basis, we were all told that we had to leave.

Q. Did you see your husband at all from the moment when this attack took place, the attack on Koritnik and when you left the village?

A. Of course we saw him. Everybody in the village was in their homes.

Q. Oh, so they returned. First they escaped to the woods, and then they returned after the attack? Is that right, Mrs. 1054?

A. Yeah, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please: In this statement of yours, the one you gave to the police, the one we showed here a short while ago, you do not mention anywhere that an attack was launched on Koritnik on the 10th of June; is that right?

A. I don't mention it; right?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, can't you see that you're reading it yourself, it's right in front of you, that there was an attack. ²⁵⁶²¹

Q. But I'm saying that in this statement that you gave in 1995, there is no mention of an attack on Koritnik, you say: "A few local Serbs came, Lipovac Milorad, Grujic Dusan, and Milorad Djuric," and you say that they informed you that you had to move out. That is what is written here in that statement of yours. Is that right?

A. Yes. So what do you want now?

Q. Well, in your statement given to the investigators, you do not mention a Dusan Djuric; you mention Dusan Grujic and Ciro Grujic. Whereas here in this statement, you talk about Lipovac Milorad, Djuric Dusan, and Milorad Djuric. So you mention completely different names in the two different statements --

JUDGE MAY: To be fair to the witness, she mentions one particular name, and she has mentioned it today. Whether it assists anyone to have this sort of detail is a matter, of course, for the Trial Chamber. What she says in her statement - and I'm looking at the statement of the 12th and 13th of February - was that she was not at home when the village was attacked, and then she describes what happened. Then she said: Two or three days later, soldiers came back. They had to surrender, and they were told to leave the village. And the man that she mentioned said there was ethnic cleansing and they had to go. Now, that was her account then. And whether it assists to have the precise detail as to the date, of course, must be doubtful. This was over ten years. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I really don't want to hold it against you, the fact that you don't know the Serbian language, because ²⁵⁶²² the assumption is that you don't have to know the language. But in the statement that I am quoting, she talks about Dusan Djuric and Milorad Djuric nicknamed Cinda. That's how the statement starts. And he informed them about the ethnic cleansing. But in the statement she gave to the investigators, she talks about Grujic. These are two completely different surnames. Djuric starts with a D-J, and so on and so forth, and Grujic starts with different letters, so you can see it exactly here. Nowhere in this statement does she mention the same persons. She talks about completely different persons. And her testimony is that these men came. So this is not a marginal matter; this is a question of credibility, of accuracy of this statement.

JUDGE MAY: There may be difficulties about the translation, but the English translation gives the name which she has mentioned throughout. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do not have a translation of the Zenica statement. I can have that done on an emergency basis and have it to the Court on Monday.

JUDGE MAY: I was referring to the witness statement which was taken by the Prosecution which refers to that man. But certainly we should have the Zenica statement.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just point out, given the traumatic events that followed this event, the fire and everything else, it seems somewhat --

JUDGE MAY: Academic?

MR. GROOME: -- academic to remember the precise names of all of ²⁵⁶²³ the people in the events preceding it, but I'll leave that to the Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: We will have a copy of that statement exhibited, and we'll have to determine in the context of all the evidence the significance of that discrepancy.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to have the point understood: Completely different names are mentioned in this statement.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, Mr. Milosevic. It's not going to be one and the same man all the time because it wasn't one and the same man who came to our village all the time to mistreat us and to force us to leave our homes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, all right. If that's the explanation, then we can go on, because you do not mention at all any Djurics or any person called Ciro. You mention a Thendo [phoen], and you say his name was Milorad Djuric; isn't that right?

A. Yes, well, Ciro is his nickname.

Q. Milorad Djuric Ciro, is that right? Is that who was there?

A. Yes, he was there for sure.

Q. And the statement given to the investigators, you say it was Dusan Grujic.

A. Yes, Dusan Grujic came to tell us that there would be ethnic cleansing and that we had to leave. All of these people are neighbours. You don't have to persuade me of anything; I know them and I saw all of them.

Q. All right. I don't want to deal with this any longer. ²⁵⁶²⁴

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because you said, Mr. May, that you are going to exhibit this statement so there is no need to discuss this with the witness any longer.

JUDGE MAY: We will get the exhibit number now for the statement. If we could have a copy handed in, please. Mr. Milosevic, have you got a copy of the statement to hand in, or maybe Mr. Tapuskovic has one. We'll leave one with the witness. It's all right, we have one for the Prosecution, we'll get the next --

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two more copies.

JUDGE MAY: We will get the next Defence exhibit number. We have one, thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be 176. Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: And just for the record, in the preceding paragraph, the witness stated that Ciro is a nickname of Radomir Djuric.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I just ask that the exhibit be under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is important, actually, to see who it was who came to their village, who the people in their village were, because different names are referred to on different occasions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When you came to Visegrad, you stayed -- you say that when you went to Visegrad, you first came across some Serbs who were wondering whether they should kill you or let you into Visegrad. That's what you ²⁵⁶²⁵ said. Isn't that right?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness, her microphone is not on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. At the crossroads, you met some Serbs and they wondered whether they should let you go into Visegrad or whether they should kill you.

JUDGE MAY: The witness's microphone should be switched on. They are on now.

Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And then nothing. They were debating whether they should kill you or not and then they let you enter town.

A. They did not let us go. They would have killed us there and they would have thrown us into the Drina River, and they would have used that excavator. But Milorad Lipovac would not let them mistreat us. He said, "take them to town, and then -" begging your pardon - "fuck them any way you want."

Q. All right, all right, Mrs. 1054. You stayed at the house of a certain Medic, or rather, first you were in one house and then another house, but that is not important; Isn't that right?

A. One -- a group of us was in Jusuf Memic's house, and another group was in his son's house. And we were wet, we got caught in the rain, somebody had tea, and so on.

Q. I heard that.

A. If you heard that, why are you asking me again? ²⁵⁶²⁶

Q. I'm not asking you again about that. You mentioned that you had tea, et cetera, but I didn't ask you about that. And now you say that later they came, and you spoke about that here a few minutes ago. Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Milan Susjnar, nicknamed Laco. Isn't that right?

A. Yeah.

Q. In the statement you gave in Zenica in 1995, you mention that with them in the yard was a certain Bosko Djuric, a taxi driver. Is that right?

A. Yes, for sure, he was there too while they were taking our money and our jewellery and gold, and they were stripping us, he was out there.

Q. Why have you not mentioned him in this statement?

A. Well, I did mention him, but perhaps I got all confused because of everything.

Q. All right. I understand that explanation. But tell me, these people whose names you mentioned, did you know all of them personally; Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Susjnar, did you know them personally?

A. They are also our neighbours. Milan Susjnar lives down by Greben. When I went to work, I used to pass by his house. And Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic are from Rujiste. How could I not know them? I have lived in Visegrad for 40 years.

Q. And what were they professionally?

A. Sredoje worked in the police, Sredoje Lukic.

Q. So he was a policeman?

A. Yes. ²⁵⁶²⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶²⁸

Q. And in the events that you describe, was he still a policeman then or was he a civilian or did he wear some kind of a uniform?

A. At that time, he wore a uniform, a police uniform, but it wasn't the one that was worn beforehand. It was a dark one with some kind of little flags on the sleeve and on the cap.

Q. So all three men you mentioned are persons you know well, and there can be no confusion regarding their identity?

A. There sure can't.

Q. Do they have anything to do with the Lukic who was suspected of the attack against civilians and their killing in Strbci?

A. Of course he does -- they do.

Q. Was it the same person?

A. It wasn't anybody else.

Q. If that is one and the same man, do you know that in Serbia, he is a wanted person precisely on account of what had happened in Strbci, in connection with the crime in Strbci?

A. I don't know whether he's wanted or not. I know that he is that man, that very man.

Q. Very well. As far as I can remember, he was even arrested.

A. I don't know that either.

Q. But in connection with the events in Strbci, as for what you're testifying about, that was not known at the time. In your statement, which you gave in 1995, you claim that Milan and Sredoje Lukic on that occasion raped Jasmina Zuban and Ifeta Kurspahic. Is that right?

A. They took them away. The women came back in a terrible state; ²⁵⁶²⁹ they were taking pills. They didn't rape them in my presence, so I can't say.

Q. I just want to clear this up with you, Madam 1054, because there's a drastic difference. So please, look at the statement. You say, and I am quoting from the statement you gave to the police in Bosnia and Herzegovina: "The girls and women that they liked were raped, so they raped Ismeta Kurspahic and Zuban."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there's nothing here.

JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

[redacted]

[redacted] ²⁵⁶³⁰ Pages 25630 - redacted - private session

²⁵⁶³¹

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You go on to say that Lukic searched you in Jusuf Memic's house. Is that right?

A. Yes, when he took our jewellery and money. ²⁵⁶³²

Q. You say in that statement that you handed over your money to him. Is that right?

A. Yes, we all did; everything. He threw a cloth on the table and said, "Put all your jewellery and money here on the table."

Q. In your statement to the security centre, you mention that, too, don't you? How much money did he take from you?

A. He knows how much money he took. Anyway, the bag was full that he had collected from all of us.

Q. How much did you personally give him?

A. More than 2.000 German marks, apart from the jewellery.

Q. However, during your testimony, you said that you handed over more than 2.000 German marks. But in your testimony for which we have the transcript, on page 1424, line 10 of the transcript, explaining what you had taken with you from the house when you left it on the 14th of June, you stated that you took some money and documents with you. Is that right?

Where did all this jewellery come from?

A. We all had jewellery, not just me, and we all took it with us, of course. We didn't leave it behind.

Q. Very well. In your statement to the investigators, on page 5, paragraph 2, you say that Lukic, about 2000 hours, took you to Adem Omeragic's house. Is that right?

A. Yes, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic, they were there when we were forced from one house to the other.

Q. And on page 2, paragraph 4 of the statement to the security centre ²⁵⁶³³ in 1995, you say: "When we all entered, they shut the door, and then they came back with an incendiary material which started burning immediately." And you say that "Lukic fired a burst of fire into the ground at the exit so as to prevent the people from escaping."

A. Nobody could escape when there was a fire burning at the door.

Q. Now, look at the statement that you gave three years later to the investigators. On page 6, paragraph 1, you say: "Some 30 minutes into our stay in that room, these two Lukics and Mitar Vasiljevic came back to this house. I saw them clearly. They did not enter the room, but they opened the door. And I saw Milan Lukic put a bomb on the floor, the kind that has a string attached to it, a fuse attached to it. The fire burns its way to the bomb, and then causes an explosion. I saw Milan Lukic holding the bomb in his hand. I saw him light the bomb at the door. And I saw him putting it down on the ground. People were sitting down. Lukic swore. I saw Sredoje and Mitar standing behind Milo Lukic. He was standing at the door."

A. He wasn't. He was standing at the door.

Q. With reference to this same event, did you give a statement to Mustafa Sacirovic, known as Mule, that was later included in Naser Oric's book, "Srebrenica, Witnesses Accused? "

A. I don't know who this Mustafa is, nor do I know who Naser Oric is.

Q. But this is in tab 8. That I was given by Mr. Groome who was examining you.

MR. GROOME: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy. ²⁵⁶³⁴

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know who tendered it.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it was tendered under seal, so ...

JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have a copy. What is it you want to ask the witness about here, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here, she says, and this is page 114 of the English version, 00816734, and I will shorten it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. "First they lit something like gas at the door from which a flame started spreading to the room we were in." Was that how it was, Madam 1054?

A. Yes, of course it was. And as people started jumping out, two people - I don't want to name them - then they went under the window and they shot at the people through the window to prevent them from jumping out of the window.

Q. Are you talking about a bomb with a fuse, yet here there's mention of a gas. You are confirming both. What was it? Can we establish what it was actually?

A. The carpets in the room, they were already soaked with some sort of liquid, like oil or fuel or something. I didn't say it was gas, but the carpets on the floor were soaked in something so as to burn more quickly. And the bomb you mentioned was dropped in front of the door, not into the crowd.

Q. How was this burning started? Was it with gas, as it says here, a bomb, or these soaked carpets? How did the fire start? Can we establish that? ²⁵⁶³⁵

A. I think, Mr. Milosevic, when something is sprinkled on the floor, it's sufficient to light a match. You know how this happens.

Q. Of course I do know when you soak something with gas, but you're talking about a bomb and a fuse.

A. Well, there was something else at the entrance, at the door, to kill the people, to prevent people from being able to escape through the door.

Q. But in this statement to the security centre, you say that Lukic opened a burst of fire into the floor so as to prevent the people from fleeing, whereas in your statement to the investigators, you just say he had a bomb and the other two had rifles?

A. This device was dropped before a burst of fire was opened into the door. And when they shot at the window, it wasn't in a burst, but individual shots.

Q. I have to say to you that this sounds rather confusing to me because in your statement to the investigators, page 6, paragraph 2, you say that [redacted] jumped out of the window just when the bomb exploded. Is that right? So there was an explosion, not just burning but also a bomb that exploded?

A. I said a moment ago I didn't want to name who jumped out of the window, but you're still naming those people.

Q. But the point here is for you to say that somebody jumped out of the window when there was an explosion. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So was there a bomb that exploded, or was there a gas, or was ²⁵⁶³⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶³⁷ there carpet soaked and sprinkled with a liquid? What was it?

JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has --

A. What exploded? What went off?

JUDGE MAY: Just tell us again, once more for the benefit of the accused, what happened, and then we'll move on to a separate topic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the woman jumped out of the window, then I threw out my son as well. And two or three minutes later, I jumped out, too. I was wounded in my left arm and left leg.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, before that, when the device was put in the room, and you've described the way in which the carpet had been sprinkled with some material or other, what happened when the device was put in the room. Just tell us briefly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The device was put in front of the door. And as the fuse was burning, eventually it exploded. Whereas there was fire spreading in the room, the carpet started burning. Just then, Lukic fired a burst, and then he was under the window while these people were jumping out to prevent the people from jumping out.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes, but please, you explained that someone jumped out of the window, and as you say, you don't want to name those people, and just when the bomb went off. After that, you say, "While in those few minutes I was thinking what I should do, I was hit by a fragment in the leg, and I was burnt by the flame."

A. Yes, and on the hand.

Q. How could a shrapnel hit you several minutes after the bomb ²⁵⁶³⁸ exploded?

A. The shrapnel ricochetted probably from the rifle shot through the window, and then it flew through my leg.

Q. So I see. That was the shrapnel that hit you three minutes after the bomb exploded, so it was a bullet that ricochetted, that came through the window and ricochetted from the wall. Is that what you mean?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, under these circumstances, how could this witness possibly know the source of a piece of shrapnel that hit her in the leg.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, this kind of detail is of no assistance, really. Mr. Milosevic, you've now had more than an hour and it's coming to time for an adjournment. We'll consider how long you should have. Are you asking for more time with this witness? Is there much more you want to ask her?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not much more. But I need a little more time, I do, Mr. May. And I agree with Mr. Groome that under such circumstances, it is difficult for anyone to see everything with precision, and it is also difficult for the witness to describe that she knows exactly that she was shot at by precisely Milan Lukic. She knows this with precision. But agree with Mr. Groome that in such circumstances and in a state of panic, it is really difficult to register every little detail.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I saw him very well, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. What we'll do is give you ²⁵⁶³⁹ 10 minutes more.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that will be quite enough, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we're going to adjourn. Witness B-1054, don't speak to anybody, please, about your evidence until it's over. And that does include the members of the prosecuting team.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mrs. 1054, in relation to these injuries that you sustained and that you speak about, you attached the discharge paper from the hospital, and I have a copy here.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. With relation to this, I have just a couple of questions. From what I see in the discharge paper -- and you say you were wounded in your left arm and left leg, and you had burns on your arm. From what I see in the letter of discharge, I suppose that Mr. May, Kwon, and Robinson, in view of their profession, know the Latin language well, it says here in the diagnosis: "Wound inflicted by a fragment of the bullet in the shoulder area." That is the first wound indicated, "una slapitaria jonas brak," [phoen] that is the shoulder. And the second one is a multiple fracture of the upper arm, something completely different to what you describe as your wounds. ²⁵⁶⁴⁰ Tell me, finally, how did you, in fact, sustain this injury from a fragment of a bullet in your upper arm?

A. I did not sustain any other injury than a bullet injury in my left arm. Here, look, if you want to see it. And above the knee, on my left leg, I had an entry and exit wound. Here on my arm is where the bullet came in, and on the other side where it came out.

Q. All right. Another thing you say in the statement given to the security centre in Zenica --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I suppose that this letter of discharge has been exhibited. If it hasn't, I would like to tender it.

JUDGE MAY: Before we go on to that, Mr. Groome, have you got that document, the letter of discharge?

MR. GROOME: Yes, we do, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: If you could produce it, and we'll give it the next exhibit number.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Next Defence number, please.

THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 177, Your Honours. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: And again I'd ask that that be under seal since it identifies the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, under seal.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And you say in this statement that you spent 22 days in the hospital in Gorazde.

A. Yes, 22 days. Maybe more. I didn't count. In any case, there ²⁵⁶⁴¹ was no place where I could lie in, so I went there to be re-bandaged.

Q. So 22 days or more. In the letter of discharge, however, it says that you spent exactly 10 days there, from the 23rd June, 1992, until the 3rd of July, 1992.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And gentlemen, regardless of whether it has been translated or not, the letter of discharge is very clear because the dates are very legible.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How do you explain this discrepancy? Did you make a mistake?

A. I couldn't have been mistaken. There are doctors who admitted me on the spot, and they could come here and explain even better than I am doing.

Q. That's what it says here, and you spent not 22 days or more, but ten days.

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness did answer. That's not what I'm doubting. I'm doubting the substance of that answer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mrs. 1054, I want to clarify only one other matter: As far as I can see from these papers, the investigators showed to you the photographs of ten different men for identification purposes so that you can identify the men who allegedly participated in the events you recounted.

A. Not ten, but the photographs of people who are charged with it.

Q. I'm just viewing the documents that I have received from Mr. Groome. You say in your brief witness statement, where it says in ²⁵⁶⁴² handwriting "amended on the 21st of July," ERN number 0108792, "The investigator showed me a series of ten photographs -" this is written by you - "marked with numbers from 1 to 10." And in the next paragraph, it says: "You asked me whether I can identify any of the men. My answer is yes. I can identify the man in the picture number 4. It is Mitar Vasiljevic, whom I used to know. He used to be a waiter working at a hotel. I mentioned him earlier in the statement that I have signed."

A. Yes, yes. I knew Mitar very well, and I recognised him from the picture.

Q. And you go on to say: "I do not know the men on the other photographs."

A. I don't want to say anything about those I don't know. I knew him, and I confirmed his identity.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask you, Mr. May, in view of the fact that this witness was shown ten photographs, out of which she recognised only one as Mitar Vasiljevic, I would kindly ask you to ask Mr. Groome if he could clarify the identity of these other ten persons, because I would very much like to know whether the other nine include any of the men that the witness referred to and allegedly recognised at the time when the events took place, according to her statement.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll get the Prosecution to do that. You can do it in written form if you can.

MR. GROOME: I can simply explain now, if it pleases the Court.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this was an identification procedure ²⁵⁶⁴³ done to test the witness's ability to identify the perpetrators of this event. The only person -- the only photograph in this series of photographs that has anything to do with this event is number 4, Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic. The other photographs are of people that have absolutely no connection with the events of Visegrad in any way whatsoever.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Anything else, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I have only one more question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mrs. 1054, even if everything had happened as you say it happened, tell me this: In your description of events, nobody from the JNA or Serbia is mentioned. Is that so?

A. I didn't say that anybody from the JNA was there at that moment.

Q. So you knew all these people that you mentioned, and all those people were from the neighbouring village.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have only one request to make, to avoid misunderstanding. I don't want anyone to think that these casualties are not real. I don't want you to misunderstand me as dealing with that part. That was never my aim, and it is not now. I just want to draw your attention to page 3, paragraph 4, of ²⁵⁶⁴⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁴⁵ the English transcript. In fact, the English version of this witness statement because that's what I would like to start with. Questioned Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Witness, if you could be so kind as to look at page 3 of the statement you gave to the investigators in 1998. Look at what you stated: "On our way to the Red Cross building, we passed by the SUP building. And Grujic and Lipovac told us to go to the Red Cross building. Grujic and Lipovac went into the SUP building and stayed there." Was that how it was?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the next sentence, then, true? "So we continued unescorted to the Red Cross building, but there was no one there because it was a Sunday."

A. Yes.

Q. And then you came across some policemen who cursed you.

A. Yes.

Q. But in the last sentence of that paragraph, you say: "They did not guard us, but all the time they were just passing by, going to and fro." They did not ask anything of you? They didn't say anything?

A. No, they didn't ask anything. It was all in the street under the lindens, the linden trees. The only question was addressed to us by this policeman whom we didn't know. We just said that we were going, and we didn't know where we were going.

Q. All right, but two paragraphs below. In the middle of that paragraph, it says that you were going along the main street of your ²⁵⁶⁴⁶ neighbourhood towards the houses of Jusuf Memic and Mujo Memic, and the Serb police did not escort you. So you went there unaccompanied. Is that correct?

A. They said, "Just go there, nobody would harm you, and you can try to settle there."

Q. All right. But when you came to that house where what you described happened, you said that not a single soldier stayed behind to guard you. And you explained: "We were too frightened to try to leave."

A. Who would guard us there? They just put us up there. And when they came to loot our houses, they returned to set us on fire. Mitar Lukic and this Mitar Vasiljevic and all the others, I don't want to enumerate them.

Q. But on your way to that house where everything else later happened, nothing happened.

A. No, not on the way.

Q. Just look at this statement given on the 14th of August, 1995. That is much earlier than this statement given in 1998. Please look at how you described this in this statement, that is, paragraph 3 of that statement. "When we arrived in front of the Red Cross building in Visegrad, the Serb police arrived. Among them I recognised [redacted] [redacted]. They drove us all the way to the

Drina bridge." And then you say: "I saw around 150 people, women and children, whom Chetniks were driving to the bridge, and the Chetnik -- a bearded Chetnik around 50 years of age was slaughtering them while the others were throwing them into the water." ²⁵⁶⁴⁷ Is this how it happened, what you saw on that road on your way?

A. Yes, all this happened, but I don't have any more forbearance to go on recounting it. The river was red with blood.

Q. But you didn't say this in 1998, and even the other witness who was heard by this Court did not mention this, because if everything happened exactly as you described here, then it is simply impossible for you to have failed to mention this to the OTP investigators.

A. I omitted a lot of things because I simply can't stand speaking about them any more. I am overwhelmed by sadness and anguish, and everything is exactly as I stated it.

Q. You described that on that day, nobody accompanied you. You said that in 1998 and --

JUDGE MAY: The witness has given her explanation, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, she did not give an explanation --

JUDGE MAY: It's not helpful. You've heard what this witness has said. You have pointed out the discrepancy. It will be a matter for us to consider whether there's any significance in it or not. Now, you've carried out your duty. Is there anything more you wish to ask the witness?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, I do have questions. I don't understand your anger. I'm just trying to assist. You should, of course, believe this witness; it's up to you.

JUDGE MAY: You will not address the Trial Chamber in those words. ²⁵⁶⁴⁸ It is not proper for counsel to use them. You remember your position. Now, you're supposed to be helping this Trial Chamber. The witness has given an explanation for the discrepancy, and you should move on.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm only trying to be of assistance. I'm not trying to do anything else.

JUDGE MAY: Do not continually reply back. Just get on with your next question.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, just a couple of minutes, because I have to pull myself together after this, if you can believe it.

Q. Here is how you described in your statement of the 12th and 13th of February, 1998, the events involving those two young girls. You said this on page 4, last paragraph. You said that these two girls had been taken away, and when they came back their clothes were in order, only their expressions had changed. You didn't notice anything else about them?

A. I just said about Jasmina Vila, that she was so full of bite marks, as if she was an eaten potato. And the other two also refused to say any more about what happened when we asked them.

Q. But on that occasion, you mentioned only two girls, and you said you hadn't noticed anything in particular about them except that their expressions had changed. But when questioned in this earlier case, you mentioned three persons, not two. And on that occasion, you said something different. You said that those two or three persons, when they returned, had their buttons torn off, their clothes were torn - that is on ²⁵⁶⁴⁹ page 1.441 - and you saw bite marks on them. And you also mentioned that they had been taken away and returned after a while. There is a slight difference.

A. As for the buttons being torn off, there was a girl who didn't want to take her clothes off herself, so they had to tear them off her.

Q. Now, explain this, please: In your statement given in the security centre on the 14th of August, you said that what they had gone through, they had gone through in the neighbouring room, and you heard both screams and cries for help, and immediately after that, you were able to see what had happened to them. Those are two different explanations. How do you explain that?

A. Yes, in the neighbouring room. Jusuf Memic's house was large. I don't even know all the rooms. In one room they put us up in the first place. In another room, they took our valuables away. If I attempted to recount everything in every detail, I would simply break down. I would have to be on medication. That's why I omitted a lot of things. I was trying to tell you the best way I could for the Judges to hear.

Q. I'm just going to read to you part of what this witness said about what happened in this house, how fire was set on the house in one statement and in another statement given to the officials of this Tribunal.

I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber how come that you learned that your child was alive only after five years?

JUDGE MAY: Let us consider for a moment what you're doing. Are you suggesting that this witness is not telling the truth? Is that the ²⁵⁶⁵⁰ suggestion, that this incident with the fire and the civilians did not happen? Is that the suggestion?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm telling you yet again what I have been saying all along: It is not for me to decide at all; it is for you to assess the validity or invalidity of all statements.

JUDGE MAY: But what is the point? Let's think for a moment. What is the point? You pointed out some discrepancies in the witness's account. Now, unless it's suggested that this witness was not in the house, that it was not set fire to, and a large number of people were not killed, I'm not sure that we're taken very much further because she has given details in different statements. What is it that you want us to decide in this case?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, really, even if you take action against me that you deem necessary, I have to say that I have been a lawyer for 40 years, and believe me, I'm always in a position to put questions on the basis of which you will assess whether a statement is valid or not. That is not for me to judge. I put questions, and then you are going to assess what this witness says. And I deeply believe that you are going to assess all these facts.

JUDGE MAY: We know all that. But I'm asking you to consider and explain for a moment how we're assisted by the fact that there are discrepancies in her account. The overall account that this happened has not been challenged by the accused, that these people were in the house, it was set fire to, they were burned. Now, the precise detail of how that happened does not appear at the moment to matter very much. It's not ²⁵⁶⁵¹ being suggested this witness is not telling the truth about it. So I'd like you to consider, when you're reflecting on what questions you want to ask, not simply to ask because there are discrepancies, but to see if there's any point in the cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have an objection. You say that I did not dispute this. No one in Serbia has ever heard of these events. It is so incredible. People would have had to have heard about this kind of thing if people had been burned down in houses in this way. It's not at the other end of the world; it's in a neighbouring republic. So what does this mean, that I did not challenge it or dispute it? Do we have to -- they have to prove that this happened. It's not for me to --

JUDGE MAY: Just one at a time. We now understand the position, that the accused challenges that this ever occurred at all. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, ask your questions, but don't, please, take up too much time about it.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I shall not, Your Honour Judge May. But please take a look at this: The witness spoke about yet another event. She said that she had just heard this.

Q. But please, Madam Witness, look at page 7. Before this list that you give, you wrote here, or rather, stated: "After that, in some house in Bikavac, 80 people were put up. [redacted].

I did not see this, but I heard the screaming coming from this house and I smelled the smell in the air coming from the direction of Bikavac." Is it true that in a way, you were the eyewitness of this other group of victims, these 80 victims, that you experienced this, too? ²⁵⁶⁵²

A. Sir, Bikavac and Nova Mahala are not kilometres away. This is a short distance. It's 5 minutes away, if you can put that way, one from each other. And of course 80 people did burn down, 80 souls. And since you claim that this did not happen, there is this glorious court here and let them decide.

Q. Can you just explain to the Court how come this kind of list of victims was compiled? I'm not challenging that these people lost their lives, but these names and surnames, how was this list made? Were these bodies first found as of people who had lost their lives, or did you just list these names without knowing whether these people had lost their lives?

A. At Adem Omeragic's house where we were burned down, all the names were written down and I identified that in Bikavac. And I did not count them. But Zehra, who is the survivor, this young girl, she can say who was up there. And as for the people who were there with me, there are all the names and surnames listed.

Q. Just one more thing: Your very own child reappeared safe and sound. Thank goodness that this happened. Now, on the basis of what can we know for sure that all of these people have lost their lives?

A. Yes, so you're saying that my son should have lost his life, too?

Q. Heaven forbid, but just, it's possible.

A. From this house that was burning, I first threw out my son. Two or three minutes after him, I jumped out. So when I was wounded in the left arm and leg, I thought that I had died, that I was killed because I went numb. A few minutes later, I came to, and I realised that I was ²⁵⁶⁵³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁵⁴ wounded in the arm and leg. So I don't think this is a lie. And a few minutes ago, Mr. Milosevic, what he said, that people in Serbia have never heard of these burnings, then he should look at the cemetery in Potocari and see what happened there. And I think that he's saying that he hasn't even heard of Potocari.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do apologise if there was a misunderstanding, but I truly believe that this is not outside the spirit and the actual job of an amicus curiae. Of course it is for you to assess the facts but it seems to me that these questions should be raised and could be of assistance. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: The Court should then decide --

JUDGE MAY: We're going to move on now. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no other questions, but should the Chamber find that the issue with respect to Jasmina Vila, which was raised by both the accused and Mr. Tapuskovic, be an important one, there was other evidence in the case which the Prosecution would be prepared to tender which indicated that she had been the subject of protracted and repeated sexual violence, sexual assaults, by Milan Lukic in the days and weeks preceding her eventual burning to death on this night, and we would be prepared to tender that.

With respect to the other fire that now has been called into question, the Prosecution is also prepared to produce --

JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Tapuskovic, I believe that ²⁵⁶⁵⁵ when you are cross-examining as to discrepancies and the line of cross-examination is such as to suggest that a particular incident did not take place at all and that a witness is fabricating, you should actually put it to the witness very squarely. It's not enough just to cross-examine on the discrepancies. When Mr. Milosevic was cross-examining on discrepancies, I said to myself that that line of cross-examination would only be feasible if he was actually suggesting that the incident did not take place at all. Put it squarely to the witness that the witness is fabricating and let her give a response so that there be no misunderstanding. Because this particular line is really taken from the common law, and that is how it is done. You must put it squarely to the witness that the witness is lying, fabricating, is making up the entire story so that there is no misunderstanding and the witness has a fair chance of responding.

JUDGE MAY: We don't need to hear evidence about the side issue which you referred. But the witness should have the chance to answer the question which -- the suggestion which has been made. Witness B-1054, you've heard this discussion, and you've heard what is now suggested by Mr. Milosevic, that he's never heard of this and therefore it never happened. Now, you should have the opportunity to answer that because effectively, what is being said is that you've not told the truth about this house in which these people were and their being killed in the way which you've described.

Now, it's suggested that isn't the truth. You should have the opportunity to answer. Did it happen or not? ²⁵⁶⁵⁶

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this truly happened. But Milosevic did not accept this, whether we were burning, whether we were killed. But it is the truth for sure. So when he claims that it's not true that these people were burned down in this house and that I survived that house, then how come all these people were killed in Potocari, how come there are so many graves and graveyards? He hasn't heard of that either?

JUDGE MAY: Very well. That concludes your evidence, B-1054. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. Would you just perhaps until the blinds come down.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll recall the earlier witness. This is not a directed witness, is it, this one?

MS. BAUER: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: So we can have the blinds up and the screens removed when we have someone to do it.

MS. BAUER: The witness's name is Mr. Josip Josipovic.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you'd like to take a seat.

MS. BAUER: Your Honours, we concluded the summary yesterday, and I think we are -- Mr. Milosevic is to cross-examine.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: JOSIP JOSIPOVIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yesterday, I got this rather lengthy ²⁵⁶⁵⁷ statement of Mr. Josipovic. I shall go in the right order, but I just want to make an exception at the very beginning. Actually, I would like to quote the very end of the witness statement of Mr. Josipovic because I got the statement in Serbian only yesterday. I had it in the English language. I can say to you that in the statement in the English language, that is the very end of the statement. That is 01067675. And then it continues on page 76. But I'm going to read from the Serbian translation.

JUDGE MAY: If you're going to ask the witness about his statement, he should have a copy of it in his own language. He has got one.

Whereabouts in the -- do we have a paragraph number?

JUDGE KWON: Thirty-six.

MS. BAUER: In the second statement, Your Honours.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 36, yes.

JUDGE MAY: If the witness could find that, please. Have you got that?

Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] So throughout your statement, Mr. Josipovic, you speak about various events that pertain to conflicts between the local population, Serb, Croat, and Muslim. Isn't that right?

A. Only the Serb and Croat populations.

Q. All right. And then you talked about people being killed in the villages of Bacin, Hrvatska Dubica, Predore, Tanac, Visnjica, Cerovljani, and so on. Is that right, Mr. Josipovic? ²⁵⁶⁵⁸

A. That's right, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Thank you. I'm going to read this paragraph out to you, this is paragraph 36. Paragraph 36 of your statement where you say verbatim: "I think that the killing of people in the village of Bacin, Hrvatska Dubica, Predore, Tanac, Visnjica, and Cerovljani were ordered by Stevo Radunovic and Momcilo Kovacevic. They were the commanders, and they were in charge of the Serbs in the region. I know that Milan Martic came from Knin several times and met with Radunovic and Kovacevic. Once when we were collecting livestock, I heard the guards mentioning the name of Milan Martic and that he had arrived with the helicopter that we saw. I heard the guards say that the helicopter had to land in Zivaje. Radunovic and Kovacevic were dismissed when the JNA and the JNA military police took over the area. I think they were dismissed according to Martic's decision. I think the orders to kill people in the area were taken by Radunovic and Kovacevic. When the JNA and the military police took over, the looting and burning stopped."

So these persons you consider responsible throughout your statement were dismissed on the basis of Martic's decision, and the army and the military police came. And you yourself say when the JNA and the military police took over, looting and burning stopped. Mr. Josipovic, doesn't this point to the fact that the JNA did everything to stop all violence and to provide security for the citizens themselves and for their property wherever they were?

A. Could you please repeat your question. I didn't understand the question. ²⁵⁶⁵⁹

Q. I'm asking you, in view of what you said in your statement, doesn't this confirm that the Yugoslav People's Army, where it came, ensured the safety and security of the citizens and prevented a conflict?

A. Yes, because it had conflicts with the local population, with the Serbs, the Chetniks. And in order to gain power, that's how they acted.

Q. Well, I assume that they acted the way you put it. They were even in conflict with the Serb paramilitary forces in order to stop the conflict between them and you?

A. That's right. And before that, they had helped them, given them weapons and everything. And when they got out of control and they couldn't handle them any longer, then they took all measures to stop them from doing that.

Q. But when you speak about power in the area, you mention that those people that you identified as being responsible were replaced by a decision of Milan Martic.

A. That was my opinion, and that was what I thought at the time.

Q. And who else could have replaced them if they belonged to the Serbian army of Krajina, or the police of Krajina?

A. The chief of the former JNA.

Q. I'm just referring to your own statement that they were replaced by Martic. But let us go back to the beginning of the questions that I have for you. You stated at the very beginning of your statement that before the elections, relations were normal between Serbs and Croats in Croatian Hrvatska Dubica. Is that right?

A. Yes. ²⁵⁶⁶⁰

Q. And in that same paragraph, you say that after the elections, the Croats won a large majority and immediately after that formed the National Guards Corps. Is that right, a military unit?

A. No, that's not right.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't have time to highlight and mark the documents I received yesterday, so I made my notes on the English version.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It says here: "Hrvatska Dubica was a small town with mixed population, but with a slight majority [In English] of Croats living there. After the elections in 1990, the HDZ party got a great majority in the elections. Shortly after, the Croats formed a national guard called Zenga. Zenga had a military structure. The Serbs had the Territorial Defence. This was a reserve force for JNA that had been existing for many years. The Croats that were in the Territorial Defence left in 1990 after the elections. Before the elections, there were normal relations between Croats and Serbs in the village.

"From the moment when the Zenga was established, the relations between the Serbs and Croats in the village changed. There was a lack of trust, and nobody felt safe any more."

[Interpretation] And so on. So my question to you was after the Croats won a major majority at the elections, they formed a National Guards Corps, a military structure. You said that was not so, and I have just quoted what you yourself said. So was that right or not?

A. After the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, as Croats wanted an ²⁵⁶⁶¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁶² independent Croatia, it was normal for them to set up Croatian power and a Croatian army.

Q. That's not what I'm asking you, Mr. Josipovic, what is normal in your opinion. I'm asking you in connection with what you said. In 1990, immediately after the elections you formed a virtually paramilitary unit called the National Guards Corps. Though you don't call it that, that is up to you. But my point is that you immediately formed the National Guards Corps as a military entity immediately after the elections. Is that right?

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. And had Croatia lost this war, it would be a paramilitary unit. But Croatia won this war, it won its own state, and recognition of that state. Therefore, it was not paramilitary police or army.

Q. It is common knowledge under what circumstances you were recognised. But in any event, when this was happening in 1990, things were quite different.

Mr. Josipovic, prior to that, you were doing your military service in the JNA.

A. Yes.

Q. You know very well what a military structure means.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So in 1990, the National Guards Corps was formed as some sort of a party army. Is that right?

A. I wouldn't put it like that, that it was an army of a party.

Q. Well, is it right that at the time Croatia was a republic within ²⁵⁶⁶³ the still-existing SFRY at the time you formed the National Guards Corps?

A. Yes, it was part of it, but it wanted to secede from the former Yugoslavia.

Q. You say that the Serbs at the time had the Territorial Defence as a reserve force of the JNA.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. In what I quoted, it follows that it was no Serbian Territorial Defence but it was the right and duty of all citizens of the SFRY, of the citizens living in the area, and the TO was composed of both Serbs and Croats; isn't that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. But when the National Guards Corps began to be formed, the Croats started abandoning the TO and switched over to the National Guards Corps. Is that right?

A. Yes, as they no longer trusted the TO.

Q. Did the Serbs in the area of Hrvatska Dubica have any kind of army at the time which would be some sort of army of theirs?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. What kind of army?

A. The Chetnik band gangs.

Q. A moment ago you said that there was the Territorial Defence which belonged to all citizens, and that the Croats abandoned it and crossed over to the National Guards Corps.

A. In the former Yugoslavia, it was of all citizens, and everyone was in the TO. But as everything collapsed and due to various developments ²⁵⁶⁶⁴ that occurred, it was normal for the Croats no longer to be suitable for the TO and the JNA.

Q. What do you mean they were not "suitable"?

A. They didn't want to be in the TO and the JNA.

Q. Did anyone expel them from the JNA?

A. Yes, they did, and they threatened and they were in jeopardy.

Q. Do you know of anyone who was thrown out of the JNA because he was a Croat?

A. I don't.

Q. You say on page 7 -- actually paragraph 7, page 2, that from the moment the Zenga was established, there was a lack of trust in the area of Hrvatska Dubica among the population.

A. That's right.

Q. That Serbs during the night crossed the Una to spend the night in Bosnia and would come back to their homes in the morning. Is that right?

A. Yes, in the evening they would go because they were afraid of what -- because what they had done on the other side of the Una River. And then during the day they would return, to feel safe, like the other Serbs who normally stayed on to spend the night in Hrvatska Dubica.

Q. They went away during the night not to be liquidated during the night. They would spend the night on the Bosnian side and during the day they would come back to work, they were peasants, farmers, they had to take care of their farming work.

A. Yes, that's right. They went to join the JNA, their tanks and Howitzers to open fire on their own Serbs, they really went there to get ²⁵⁶⁶⁵ information and everything else.

Q. Mr. Josipovic, are you trying to tell us now, even though you stated something quite different in your statement, that some Serbs during the night would cross the Una to spend the night in Bosnia to open fire on their own Serbs on this side of the river?

A. Yes, that's what I'm saying, Mr. Milosevic, because that's how it was essentially. When the Serbs went to the other side of the Una, those who stayed behind were told to hide in basements and in other places so that those who crossed the Una would be able to fire on us and the whole population. And in some cases when a Serb was injured, normally they would say that the Ustashas had done it.

Q. Very well. But you formed, immediately after the elections, the National Guards Corps. The Serbs fled during the night to sleep in Bosnia, fearing that they would be killed during the night, and now you're saying that the Serbs were crossing the river to open fire on you and other Serbs on the other bank of the river.

A. That's so.

Q. I see. So that's what you claim. That's very fine. Now, what were the Serbs afraid of to make them cross the Una to Bosnia to leave their homes unprotected?

A. You will have to ask them that.

Q. Very well. Mr. Josipovic, in paragraph 8 on page 2, you say that the situation changed dramatically after the Territorial Defence, that is, the Serbs, arrested eight men, among whom you knew two; Tomislav Mateljak, and Predrag Vucicevic. Is that right? ²⁵⁶⁶⁶

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Mateljak was a Croat, wasn't he?

A. Yes, he was. And this Vucicevic, he too was a Croat and still is a Croat.

Q. I don't doubt that, that if he was a Croat then, that he is still a Croat. And Mateljak, as you yourself say, in those days was the commander of the National Guards Corps. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Is it also true that you know, and that it was known then, too, that Mateljak was a criminal?

A. I didn't know that at the time. I just know that he was an orphan and that he was brought up by his grandmother.

Q. You say - and this is the last paragraph on page 1 of your statement, I have the English version here: [In English] "Mateljak is a criminal." "I consider Mateljak as a criminal. I know that Mateljak was unemployed before the war. He was a tramp, and he lived in a small ruined house in Cerovljani. However, after the party HDZ was founded, he suddenly became a very powerful and rich person." [Interpretation] So this is what you wrote, Mr. Josipovic. How come you're now telling us that you didn't know that he was a criminal, but you wrote this, that he was a tramp? I had never heard of Mateljak; I never heard of you either before I received your statement.

A. It is not true. I didn't write that. I just gave a statement to that effect, my opinion.

Q. Very well. But I assume they noted down what you said. ²⁵⁶⁶⁷

A. Yes, they noted down what I said.

Q. Well, that's quite sufficient, then. Who technically actually wrote it down is not important; the important thing is that that was your opinion.

A. Yes, that is my opinion.

Q. So Mr. Josipovic, a local criminal became the commander of the local National Guards Corps. And as you say, when he came into power, he became a very powerful and rich person in the HDZ. How do you explain that fact?

A. My explanation is that the authorities at the time should have needed people of that kind, and more such people.

Q. As he was such a person you yourself describe as a criminal and a tramp, does it mean that the fear of the Serbs from that type of armed unit, with a commander who was a criminal, such as this Mateljak was, was justified, that it was justifiable that the Serbs should fear such an armed grouping under the command of such a criminal, even in your own opinion? Is that so, Mr. Josipovic?

A. No, it isn't. One cannot say that it was justified.

Q. So their fear was not justified, despite all these facts that you yourself have given?

A. They had no need to fear anything. Regardless of the fact that I consider him to be that, and because he did behave in that way and because he was such a man.

Q. So he behaved in that way and was such a man, and he was in charge of this armed formation, yet, in your opinion, the Serbs had no reason to ²⁵⁶⁶⁸ fear such a formation with such a commander?

A. That's right. I didn't say that he was a murderer and a criminal.

Q. Now, tell us now, to what extent were Serbs indeed terrorised by a criminal such as Mateljak?

A. They were not exposed to any kind of terror at all.

Q. Nothing was done against them?

A. Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Q. And you say that Vucicevic was the second person who was arrested and that you knew. And on page 3, paragraph 2, you said that Mateljak managed to get away and that Vucicevic was later on exchanged. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So neither of them, although one was a criminal and another a newly recruited member of the MUP of Croatia, came to any harm. Is that true?

A. That's correct. With the proviso that he was shown on TV showing what the Serb Chetniks and JNA troops had done to him.

Q. All of them together, Serb Chetniks, and the JNA, what did they do to him?

A. I am still unclear about this today, who was Serbian Chetnik, what was JNA, what was TO, and what were Martic's men, and whether they were under the command of the former JNA.

Q. Since you are still unclear about this, I hope you understand that absolute chaos reigned at that time.

A. Yes, but there were commanders of all these formations. ²⁵⁶⁶⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁷⁰

Q. So who were the commanders?

A. Well, I certainly didn't, if you did not.

Q. All right, Mr. Josipovic. But tell me, what did Vucicevic do before he became chief of the MUP of Croatia?

A. I don't know.

Q. In the following paragraph, paragraph 3 on page 3, you state that local Serbs, as you call them, were active in the region. All of them, you say, were local Serbs, and they wore the same olive-green uniforms of the JNA. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So is it true, since you had done your military service just before that, that all members of the reserve force of the JNA, or at least the majority of them, regardless of which republic - Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, or some other republic - they were from, you know that all of them had drawn these uniforms from the supply of the JNA and they kept them at home so that when called up they could put them on and report to their units?

A. Well, some of the men had uniforms. I didn't because I wasn't issued with one.

Q. You did not do your military service?

A. No.

Q. You did not have a wartime assignment in the reserve force?

A. I think I did.

Q. But those who, as reservists or members of the TO, had uniforms, does it mean, just the fact that they had uniforms after being discharged ²⁵⁶⁷¹ from the army or the TO, does it mean they were members of the JNA?

A. Yes, they wore the star, the emblem of the JNA.

Q. When it started, they simply put on these uniforms that they had kept at home?

A. I don't see any reason why they would put on these uniforms if you say yourself that Croats and Muslims had the same uniforms. Why didn't the Croats and Muslims put them on?

Q. Because they had a different attitude probably towards the JNA and Yugoslavia. That's one thing. And another thing, I would not like to lump everybody together because there were different Croats and Muslims who stayed in the JNA and even occupied the highest posts. You know that too, don't you?

A. I do, too.

Q. On paragraph 3 on page 3, you say after saying these local Serbs were your neighbours, naming them, which means that those were people whom you knew. Isn't that so?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of them a member of the JNA?

A. No.

Q. Yesterday when asked about this, you said some of them were local Serbs and others were from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. But those from Bosnia-Herzegovina, I suppose they had come from nearby places across the Una River. None of them were from very distant parts. ²⁵⁶⁷²

A. Yes. There were also people from Serbia.

Q. You didn't mention anyone from Serbia. Who did you see from Serbia?

A. I didn't mention it because I wanted to be brief, to make this procedure brief.

Q. But do you have a single name for a person who allegedly came from Serbia, and where they came from exactly?

A. No, I was not in a position to find out. But there were a couple of them who were bragging that they were from Serbia, how they were involved in Vukovar and how they had come to take their revenge, to repay a debt from the Second World War, against me.

Q. So you can't tell me a single name.

A. Even if I had known it then, I couldn't possibly recall it now.

JUDGE MAY: Let me just clarify something. When did you meet or come across the couple who were bragging that they were from Serbia and they were involved in Vukovar? When was it that you came across those two?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was taken captive. I think it was in October 1991.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So in October 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. How was it possible in October 1991 for anyone to tell you they were involved in Vukovar? You know that Vukovar fell sometime end of November 1991. ²⁵⁶⁷³

A. I don't know. That's what they told me. They were bragging.

JUDGE MAY: As a matter of accuracy, the siege began in August 1991. So it might have been possible for somebody to talk about Vukovar at the time. Of course, it didn't fall, as the evidence is, until November, but the witness can only say what he saw, what he heard.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, all right, Mr. May. I can't imagine who it could have been, what happened in Vukovar to talk about on the part of the Serbian side or the part of JNA before October. You should know that. You have followed evidence on these events.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say all of them wore a patch "SAO Krajina" on their sleeve.

A. Yes, they all wore different emblems, whatever they could lay their hands on. Some wore Serbian cockades, others wore patches of the SAO Krajina.

Q. You mentioned a certain Sarac who told you he was from Bosanska Dubica.

A. From around Bosanska Dubica.

Q. This place is next to Croatian Dubica, near the other side of the Una River, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there even a kilometre between the Croatian Dubica and Bosanska Dubica?

A. No, not even a kilometre. It is on different sides of the Una River.

Q. So you say people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were talking about ²⁵⁶⁷⁴ your immediate, your next-door neighbours practically?

A. No. I just said there were some neighbours, but there were people from more distant places, like Banja Luka, to mention one. Nedzad, and all the other neighbouring places from Prijedor, for instance.

Q. But it's all from the immediate vicinity?

A. Within 80 kilometres, let's say.

Q. Let's move on, Mr. Josipovic. The second person you mention as not being from Dubica either was allegedly from Vukovar. That's the one you mentioned a second ago. Right?

A. Right. He bragged that his brother was killed in Vukovar, that he had come from Vukovar and that he had come to take revenge for his brother. He said the Ustashas had killed his brother during the conquest of Vukovar.

Q. So again, you are talking about a Serb from Vukovar who was a refugee from Vukovar, not anyone else.

A. No, he said he was from Serbia. He had fought together with his brother who was killed in Vukovar, and most probably both he and his brother were from Serbia. I didn't say he was from Vukovar.

Q. And you came across him in October, as you say.

A. I don't know exactly which month it was. I think it could have been October, maybe the end of October. At that time, I didn't keep track even of months, let alone days.

Q. All right, all right, Mr. Josipovic. We don't need that sort of correction.

This Serb whom you mention in paragraph 4 ordered a Croatian ²⁵⁶⁷⁵ elderly woman to be buried, and she had died of starvation because nobody attended to her in her village.

A. I suppose he died of -- she died of starvation. I didn't see any injuries on her, no signs of bullet wounds.

Q. What was bad about his helping to have this woman buried?

A. The only thing that was bad is that, while we were digging the grave for that old woman, when we were inside the pit, he was pushing the rifle barrel into our mouths and he was hitting us with the rifle butt on the head, and he asked us whether we would like to be killed inside that pit and stay inside or bury the old woman first.

Q. Yes. That's what you say, but from what I can see, you are alive and well and he didn't kill you inside that pit.

A. Yes, we said we would like to stay alive, we would like to bury that old woman and stay alive.

Q. All right, Mr. Josipovic. How long were you with the National Guards Corps?

A. About two months.

Q. Judging by your statement, you did not join up voluntarily.

A. No, because I was unfit for service.

Q. And who was it that recruited you despite your will into the National Guards Corps?

A. I joined up myself because I had to, since I wasn't able to go to work, and the only way for me to stay employed and not to get dismissed was to join up with the National Guards Corps. And by virtue of that, I got a certificate allowing me to come back to work eventually. ²⁵⁶⁷⁶

Q. Where did you work?

A. In Sisak on Croatia railways, the former Yugoslav railways.

Q. So you would not have been able to keep your employment if you had not joined up the National Guards Corps; you would have been dismissed?

A. That is right because I wasn't able to travel, I wasn't able to go to work; we were under siege. The war was going on. The only way was to join up with the National Guards Corps. That was the only way I could keep my employment.

Q. You say here: "In the end of June 1991, my brother, Dragan, cousin Mico Coric and myself went to Kutina. [In English] We were not members of HDZ, and we did not want to fight with anybody. We stayed in a hotel in Kutina. The Croatian police found us and instructed us to go back to Hrvatska Dubica. They told us that we had to join the National Guard Corps Zenga."

[Interpretation] So it means that the police in Kutina instructed you that you had to join the National Guards Corps, and you would not have been able to keep your employment if you had failed to do that.

A. That's correct. After Dvor na Uni and Kostajnica were taken, we had to leave because we were afraid of being caught up in the winds of war. And we fled with the rest of the population and we ended up in this hotel in Kutina.

Q. All right. Tell me, is it true that in the headquarters of the National Guards Corps, you were issued with a weapon, and then you were sent to a bridge between Croatian Dubica and Bosnian Dubica?

A. That was later. ²⁵⁶⁷⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁷⁸

Q. On that bridge, did you link up with the Croatian police who were searching everybody crossing the bridge for weapons or anything else?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Then you were under the direct command of this Tomislav Mateljak. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Josipovic, how many fighting men in total were then under the command of this Mateljak man?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know the number of the unit that you belonged to?

A. No. I had no insight into that.

JUDGE MAY: The time has come to adjourn. Mr. Josipovic, would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Josipovic, on page 4 in paragraph 1 of your statement you say that Mateljak issued you with a sniper rifle since, as you say, you were trained in the JNA as a sniper. Is that correct?

A. Yes, I was a sniper shooter in the JNA. And Mateljak did give me a sniper rifle, the hunting version of the sniper rifle.

Q. But as I see, you were -- this weapon was taken back from you very soon after that. Is that correct? ²⁵⁶⁷⁹

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, what was the name of the officer of the Croatian police who ordered you to shoot at the Serbs on the other bank of the river who were observing in your direction?

A. I don't know.

Q. The Serbs you were supposed to shoot at, according to that order, were they opening fire or were they just observing?

A. They were observing and they were shooting.

Q. I see that your orders were to shoot at the people who were observing your side.

A. Yes, I suppose so. That's how I understood it.

Q. On page 4, paragraph 2, you stated that a couple of days later, you were informed that a house of a Serb in your village, Stojan Bekic, was burning.

A. That's correct.

Q. Then you went to your village to see what was going on. So tell me, who set Stojan Bekic's house on fire?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. You don't even mention in your statement the name of the person who set the house on fire, but you say that the villagers told you that JNA helicopters landed in the vicinity of his house.

A. Not in the vicinity of his house, but in the vicinity of our houses in the village.

Q. So your houses. It had nothing to do with the house of the Stojan Bekic which was set on fire? ²⁵⁶⁸⁰

A. I don't know who set it on fire, but most probably there was no connection between the two things.

Q. So the house was set on fire just because it was Serbian. Right?

A. I don't know who set it on fire and whether it is and was a Serb's house. I couldn't answer this question.

Q. All right. Did you, with your own eyes, see these JNA helicopters on any one occasion?

A. Yes. When I came to the village once or twice to visit my parents.

Q. On that occasion, as you say, the villagers told you that the helicopters unloaded some weapons that were transported by a truck belonging to the Elektra company to Zivaja and Sas villages. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. That's what you were told by the people who lived in the village?

A. Yes, it was their opinion. And later on, I went to check out for myself and I did check out.

Q. When you say you found out what was going on, what do you mean?

A. The helicopter landed in the woods along the road where vehicles and smaller freight vehicles were parked. I saw weapons being unloaded, and all the other stuff. And behind the helicopter, they were unloaded on to -- they were loaded on to vehicles.

Q. But you didn't see where those weapons were taken?

A. I know in which direction they were taken.

Q. In the direction of these villages that I mentioned? ²⁵⁶⁸¹

A. Yes.

Q. And what kind of weapons did you see?

A. I saw automatic weapons, because the Serbs who had come to pick the weapons up opened these trunks and took the best weapons for themselves, the new weapons. And the rest they loaded on to vehicles. On that occasion, I could see that the contents of the trunks were weapons.

Q. How much approximately?

A. Well, approximately four or five vehicles loaded with weapons, maybe 50 to 70 cases.

Q. Now, tell me something about this train. You mention a train which was coming from the direction of Novska. And fire was opened from the train on Serbs from 50 and 60 millimetre cannons.

A. Yes. The train was using the railroad towards Bosanska Dubica, and I was passing by carrying food supplies, driving food supplies to the village. I stopped by to talk to friends and asked them, "What is this train doing here?" And they told me: "Of course, they are shooting at Serbs. They are defending. Dubica had fallen, and it is occupied by Serbs." So they were covering the people who were withdrawing and the troops who were withdrawing.

Q. And you saw the shooting from this train?

A. No, I didn't see that. I only saw the train.

Q. And you saw the weapons on the train?

A. Yes, it was something hand-made, done at the iron works, maybe five or six hand-made mortars without the full set of equipment. It was hand-held by one man while another was shooting. Other people were ²⁵⁶⁸² pushing in shells. And they had some sort of improvised aiming device. It was ridiculous to see.

Q. All right. Also, is it correct that the Croat forces during the night between the 13th and 14th September, 1991, destroyed the bridge that linked Bosanska and Hrvatska Dubica?

A. Yes, that's correct, and it was destroyed in order to stop the JNA from crossing the river. And they didn't want the JNA to come in with their armoured vehicles and weapons.

Q. Do you know who issued the order to destroy the bridge?

A. I am not aware of that.

Q. As far as I understand, from this statement of yours, on the following day, on the 15th of September, you were arrested. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you know all the persons who were arrested with you on that day?

A. Yes.

Q. How many of you were arrested?

A. In my village, all the people who happened to be there were arrested. Perhaps it was about ten persons or so.

Q. Yesterday, you spoke about eight persons.

A. Yes, I said eight. But it's the same thing, eight or ten. I didn't count them.

Q. Who arrested you?

A. The Serb army, the JNA arrested us. The Martic people. I don't ²⁵⁶⁸³ know. The TO. Whoever. I don't know.

Q. Is that the TO from your village there?

A. The TO was registered as if it were from my village, but under whose command they were, something I don't know.

Q. Did you know these people who arrested you?

A. I knew some. I didn't know others.

Q. They knew you, and you knew them?

A. Yes.

Q. In your statement, the one you gave on the 5th of September, 1992, in the municipality of Hrvatska Kostajnica, you stated that on that day you were arrested by, as you put it, the local Chetniks, Mico Tepic, Vaso Paukovic, a certain Rajko. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. Those are the names of the persons who I knew. And those are the persons who I did mention, whose names I mentioned and everything. I those didn't know, I didn't mention, of course.

Q. Is it correct that on that occasion, they interrogated you about the weapons that you had and about the positions where the members of the ZNG were?

A. Yes, that is right. That is correct, too. But before that, they took five or six of us to be a human shield in front of them so that they would go to the Sava River in order to reconnoiter to see where the positions of the Croat army and the Croat MUP was, they had put it. And then on that occasion, they asked us how many Croatian troops were there, how many Croatian policemen were there and so on and so forth. And then I said when we came to the Sava River, "You can see yourselves how long the ²⁵⁶⁸⁴ village is. It's perhaps 3 kilometres or 3 and a half kilometres long. You can see how populated it is, and you can see how many people there are there." I did not know how many people there were there.

Q. It was my understanding that in that village, as for the local population, they only arrested you and Mico Coric. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. That was after they returned from this reconnaissance mission because we were a human shield, as I said. The rest were left alone, and they took us away. They took them away later, though.

Q. On page 6, in paragraph 2, you say that while you were in captivity, you were forced to repair the bridge. I assume that this is the bridge between Hrvatska Dubica and Bosanska Dubica. Is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And is it correct that in addition to you, who were taken prisoner, local Serbs also took part in repairing the bridge?

A. Yes, people who were convicts.

Q. They were also arrested, weren't they?

A. I don't know whether they were arrested or taken into custody for forced labour.

Q. You called them convicts.

A. That is what I called them. That is the name I used for them.

Q. Very well. In the statement you gave in Hrvatska Kostajnica you stated that Antun Knezevic and Zeljko Abaza from Bacin were killed while you were detained in the old school Dubicanka [phoen] in Hrvatska Dubica. Is that right? ²⁵⁶⁸⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁸⁶

A. Yes, it is.

Q. But I didn't see in your statement, the statement to the investigators of the Tribunal, that you mention anywhere the way in which they were killed.

A. I don't know. Maybe it's an error that slipped through, but there must be an explanation of that killing and everything else.

Q. Nowhere in your statement to the investigators did you mention that Abaza -- Knezevic had his throat slit as you stated on the 5th of December, 1992.

A. Whether they slit his throat or killed him, when they forced us to load them on, when we came to, the first thing I noticed was that his throat had been slit.

Q. But you didn't see them actually being killed, or how, nor by whom.

A. That is true; I didn't see who killed them, how they killed them, or with what, nor what happened to them. But afterwards, when I regained consciousness, because they had probably been killed after I fainted -- they hit me on the head with a metal pole, I fell and lost consciousness. From there on, I don't know what happened. But when I regained consciousness, when they poured cold water on us, then I saw what had happened to them.

Q. And then sometime around Christmas, you were in prison. Isn't that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And who ran the prison? Who was in control? ²⁵⁶⁸⁷

A. I think it was the JNA that had taken over from the locals and the TO. Simply, they replaced them. The JNA took over control and replaced the TO.

Q. I see, so when the JNA came, they replaced them. And this is linked to the paragraph I quoted from at the beginning, because when the JNA arrived, there was no further mistreatment, was there?

A. Yes, you're right, there was no mistreatment after that.

Q. And is it true that it was upon the insistence of the Serb, Stojan Bekic, whose house had been torched in your village, Predore, that you were transferred to Prijedor from where, 25 days later, you were transferred to Banja Luka. Is that right?

A. I'd rather not talk about that.

Q. Do you have any particular reason for not wanting to talk about it?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Could you tell us about it in private session?

A. I said that I didn't want to talk about it. I don't wish to mention Mr. Stojan Bekic.

Q. Very well, I won't insist. Did anyone mistreat you in Prijedor or Banja Luka?

A. As regards mistreatment, no one mistreated me until they found out who and what I was. As soon as they learned about that, because I was in the barracks in a dormitory where convicts were held who had fled from Lipik, Daruvar, and Novska, and they were with me together and they started talking, and through the conversation as to who we were, where we ²⁵⁶⁸⁸ were from and what we were doing, that is how they learned I was a Croat and what I was.

Q. And they didn't know that before that, when you were arrested?

A. No, no one knew, none of the officers knew that I was such and such a person. And that was the reason. Nor did they know why I had got there, why I had come to the barracks in Prijedor. Later on when they found out who I was and what I was, I was transferred to the guards' room, again some kind of military detention for soldiers where they intimidated me. They tried to frighten me, but nobody beat me or mistreated me or touched me.

Q. At any point in time during the events that you are describing, did you see a soldier or officer of the JNA mistreating anyone?

A. I did see JNA soldiers. Actually, I was mistreated in Prijedor. Well, not really mistreated, just threatened behind a closed door. They would beat on the door with their truncheons, with their belts, and other such nonsense.

Q. They were banging on the door of the detention unit?

A. Yes, the detention area where I was held.

Q. But when the JNA arrived, all the torching, looting, and unlawful action ceased. Is that right?

A. Yes, one could say so, more or less. One could say that the authorities had arrived.

Q. Tell me, please, on the 7th to the 11th of March, 2002, you made an additional statement to the investigators.

A. I don't remember. ²⁵⁶⁸⁹

Q. You don't remember this additional statement?

A. No, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

Q. Let me just try and find it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I took note of it somewhere.

MS. BAUER: Your Honours, it is part of the 92 bis package, yes, indeed. The starting ERN number I have is 02167694.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't see this now. 76... At any rate, there is an additional statement, as far as I can see.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This is about a year after you gave your first statement; is that right?

A. Well, I believe it is so. Most probably it is, yes.

Q. At the beginning of this additional statement, you say that you gave it of your own free will, and I wish you to explain it to me. Did you yourself decide to give this additional statement, or did they ask you to give an additional statement?

A. I decided myself to give this supplementary statement, because when I was first asked to give a statement for The Hague Tribunal, I was working in the meantime, and I didn't have time. So I wanted this to happen as soon as possible. I wanted it to be as brief as possible, too. I wanted to finish as soon as possible, that's what I'm trying to say.

Q. All right. Tell me, in this first statement, you did not mention that these people who you accuse of having been responsible for that, Radunovic and Kovacevic, that they acted on orders coming from Mile ²⁵⁶⁹⁰ Martic. As a matter of fact, in paragraph 36, the one I quoted to you from the first statement, it is quite obvious that Mile Martic replaced those two men. Isn't that right?

A. That was the objective of Milan Martic. Most probably they were replaced. However, since they did not want to be replaced, I don't believe that he managed to do that.

Q. Well, you yourself said that they were dismissed by him.

A. Yes, they were dismissed, but then they came back to power a day or two later.

Q. Oh, so he came and he dismissed them, and then they came back to these positions a day or two later; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So they were not working on his orders, at least that's for sure.

A. I don't know on whose orders they were acting, his or the JNA.

Q. Did you ever see Milan Martic?

A. Not personally.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must bring your examination to an end because you're over time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'm going to bring it to an end now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I don't understand this because you gave this supplementary statement by the time I had been accused here. At whose initiative did you give this statement?

A. I don't know whose initiative it was. At any rate, I gave it ²⁵⁶⁹¹ voluntarily, this statement.

Q. You, yes, highlight that, that you give it voluntarily. Tell me, did you give this statement by way of some kind of free interpretation or did somebody put questions to you and did you then answer these questions?

A. Of course questions were put to me and I answered these questions.

Q. Oh, so they put questions to you and you answered them.

A. Yes, that's right. But I mentioned that during the first statement I didn't have enough time, that my time was very short then, and I could not say everything during that first statement. I couldn't describe everything that happened to me within those five months, and I got only an hour away from work.

Q. And in that first statement, you say that they were doing something on the orders of Milan Martic, and that Milan Martic dismissed them.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Josipovic, thank you.

A. You're welcome.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I'm going to be very, very brief.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Josipovic, I would like to draw your attention to paragraphs 12 and 13 of your statement. I don't know whether I heard this. Perhaps I missed something. You speak of the month of June 1991 there. Have you found it?

You speak of the month of June. And in paragraph 13 you say, "We ²⁵⁶⁹² were told to go to headquarters, to report at headquarters."

A. Yes.

Q. I'm not sure whether you were asked about this, that you were given some old weapons, M48 rifles, in the month of June.

A. I don't really understand your question.

Q. Did you get these rifles in June?

A. No, I didn't. Because there weren't any.

Q. But here you said that you did get rifles.

A. I said that I did get rifles, but the rifles were hunting rifles.

Q. Oh, so they were not M48 rifles?

A. Well, perhaps it was a hunting rifle that had been transformed into a M48, something like that.

Q. You said that you were not given uniforms, and you say, "I think that all the members of the HDZ had uniforms then." Does that mean that some civilians were armed too, in addition to the people who belonged to the HDZ then in the month of July?

A. No. Those who were perhaps a bit more active, those from the HDZ, of course, and those who were closer. The HDZ, et cetera, of course they had equipment and weapons and uniforms and everything else.

Q. Can you explain to the Court why this was necessary in the month of June?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. And here in paragraph 17, so then that is the following page, you stated: "Mateljak ordered that the civilian population be evacuated from Hrvatska Dubica and the surrounding villages. ²⁵⁶⁹³ This came from President Tudjman. The villagers were very scared and all civilians left." Is that the way you put it then?

A. Yes, that's what I said then, and that's what I'm saying now. The reason for that was that Croatia, the Croatian police rather, and the Croatian army, the members of the National Guards Corps did not have sufficient manpower to defend the Croatian Dubica, Hrvatska Dubica. They kept this for themselves. They had to leave, they had to withdraw. And the very few troops they had were just there to secure the retreat of the civilian population until the JNA came in.

Q. So in order to carry out certain military operations the civilian population was order to leave that village?

A. Orders were given for the civilians to withdraw because, of course, the Croatian army, the Croatian police could no longer keep up the defence, of course.

Q. Were these people of Croat ethnicity who left these -- this area on those orders?

A. Yes, they were Croats and Muslims. There were a few Muslims. There were some Serbs, too.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you. Re-examined by Ms. Bauer:

Q. Mr. Josipovic, when Mr. Milosevic asked you about the dismissal of Radunovic and Kovacevic by Martic, did you make any personal direct objections how Martic dismissed those two persons?

A. Yes. When Martic wanted to dismiss these two criminals, he simply didn't dare come to Hrvatska Dubica to dismiss them. At the railway ²⁵⁶⁹⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁶⁹⁵ station in Hrvatska Dubica, that's where the people who told me who were with me at the farm, they had to stop there, and actually he was taken to Zivaja. And that's where JNA headquarters were, or rather TO headquarters, of Martic, of the army, of the police. I don't know, I'm not sure. But those were the instructions that were given then in Zivaja, that I don't know. And that these two in Hrvatska Dubica should be replaced.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object to the question put by Ms. Bauer. Actually, I have the English version here. The witness says very clearly: "[In English] Martic's decision that they were dismissed."

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So it is quite undisputable on the basis of his statement that Martic dismissed these people who did not act in accordance with the rules that were part of legality. I think that this speaks in Martic's favour. And I showed you that it was only in the second statement, later, that this witness first mentioned that they allegedly worked on some kind of instructions given by Martic.

JUDGE MAY: Listen, it's his evidence which counts. It's not counsel's questions or your objections. Now, he has given his evidence about this, and that's what we'll have to rely on. Yes, I wonder if the registrar would come up, please.

[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Mr. Milosevic, ²⁵⁶⁹⁶ but Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic while they obeyed Martic everything was fine, but as soon as they got out of his control, he had them dismissed because they had become disobedient and arrogant, and that's why he dismissed them. And that's why I gave my opinion, that I think that is most probably why he dismissed them. That is my explanation.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Bauer.

MS. BAUER:

Q. At the time he was dismissed, you were in detention. Is this correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So you came about -- who told you about the dismissal of Radunovic and Kovacevic, who were the persons?

A. These persons were members of the JNA. It was the JNA army.

Q. And you personally, did they tell you in addition what the reason was and did you give the reasons in an addendum to both statements about two months ago?

A. I did.

Q. Could you say just in one sentence what was the reason these Serb soldiers told you to dismiss Radunovic and Kovacevic?

A. The reason was that they had become disobedient, and most probably because they had killed civilian population. Another reason was Zeljko Abaza and Antun Knezovic , when they killed them, they should not have killed them. They were supposed to be exchanged allegedly.

Q. Was Jovo Misljenovic as president somewhere involved in this ²⁵⁶⁹⁷ matter or did you hear about his involvement?

A. Yes. The president of the SDS party, Jovo Misljenovic, he had conflicts with this Milojica, this Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic. Threats were made and they shot at his house on one occasion. He managed to get out. He left the village and went to Knin, and he told Martic what the actual situation was like in the field. And I think that that is when Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic were dismissed.

Q. Secondly, you said on questioning by Mr. Milosevic with regard to Mateljak that you at the time didn't know that he was a criminal. Did you form the opinion of him retrospectively?

A. Yes, that's right, later, after a while, yes.

Q. And you also considered -- you said that you didn't consider him a murderer. So what was the reason why you considered him then a criminal?

A. The reason why I considered him a criminal was the fact that he is a dishonourable man. There is no honesty or integrity in him.

Q. Did you in paragraph 8 of your first statement actually explain certain reasons what you heard about Mr. Mateljak's post-war behaviour?

A. I don't understand this question. Could you please repeat it.

Q. Of course. In paragraph 8 of your statement, do you find paragraph 8 of your statement?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you explain the reasons why you considered Mr. Mateljak a criminal?

A. I considered him to be a criminal and a thief. And I still consider him to be that because he was in that position after the war, ²⁵⁶⁹⁸ right after the war. And he reconstructed his house and everything else due to the position he held as mayor of Hrvatska Dubica and everything else.

Q. And what did he steal?

A. I don't know exactly. I mean, I cannot say what he stole, but I consider him to be a dishonest man and a thief. And for me, all dishonest people are thieves and criminals.

MS. BAUER: Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Josipovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome, the next witness.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness is B-1505. There are protective measures in place, so we will take, I guess, a few minutes to prepare the courtroom.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have to break sharp at 1.45, so we may not be able to get very far with this witness, but at least we'll make a start.

MR. GROOME: He is prepared to be here over the weekend. Your Honour, while we're waiting for the courtroom to be prepared, there are two administrative matters with respect to this witness. With respect to protective measures, the 1505 has agreed that voice distortion is no longer necessary. So I will query him about that, but there's no ²⁵⁶⁹⁹ necessity for that. And the second matter -- I don't believe we will get to the video today. I put an extensive note about a mix-up between two exhibits. This exhibit was marked for identification and was used with another witness. Perhaps if the Court could review that note and on Monday morning I could address the Court on the best way to technically address this -- it's not really a problem, but just this mix-up.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll get our packages of that witness.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Groome, is there any reason why the witness should not now take the declaration, or do you want to clear some matters up first?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, it's perfectly acceptable for the witness to take the declaration.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration. If you'd read out what's on the card, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1505

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think we probably should begin in private session just to take care of the administrative matter pertaining to the appeals judgement.

JUDGE MAY: Very well, we'll go into private session.

[Private session] ²⁵⁷⁰⁰

[redacted]

[Open session]

MR. GROOME: Your Honours, pursuant to this Chamber's order of the 30th of July this year, the Prosecution's application for the admission of 1505's testimony from the trial of Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic, case number 98-32, was granted. The Prosecution would like to formally tender one package of exhibits containing that transcript and the pseudonym sheet for this witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll give it the next number.

THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 523, Your Honours.

MR. GROOME: ²⁵⁷⁰¹

Q. Sir, tab 2 of Prosecution Exhibit 523 has been placed on the desk before you. Can I ask you to take a look at that and just tell us, is that your name at the very top of that page?

A. Yes.

Q. Sir, the Chamber is in possession of your testimony and the exhibit from your prior testimony in the Vasiljevic trial. I will not ask you to repeat that testimony, but I do want to ask you a few specific questions that are relevant to the proceedings in this case. My first question to you is can you tell us what your best recollection is of when the Uzice Corps of the Yugoslav People's Army arrived in the town of Visegrad.

A. According to my recollection, the Uzice Corps arrived in Visegrad on the 15th of May. I'm sorry, the 15th of April, 1992.

Q. And would you characterise the arrival of the Uzice Corps as a significant or full deployment of the Uzice Corps?

A. Yes, I would agree with that.

Q. Prior to their arrival, did you see members of Serb paramilitaries in the town or in the vicinity of Visegrad?

A. Prior to the arrival of the Uzice Corps, they were not in town. I didn't see any of them.

Q. When did you first see them?

A. I saw them for the first time in the period when the JNA had come too. It was in that period that I also saw the paramilitaries.

Q. Soon after the arrival of the JNA in Visegrad, did you have a conversation with a JNA captain by the name of Vukosavljevic? ²⁵⁷⁰²

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please describe or summarise for the Chamber the conversation you had with this captain.

A. Yes. The conversation with Captain Vukosavljevic -- actually, I had several conversations with him. The first conversation we had could be reduced to the following: He told me that suddenly he had been transferred from Macedonia and sent to Visegrad directly with his unit, that he had heard about Visegrad mostly from the media and the sources regularly used by the army. We spoke for about four or five hours. And after such a conversation, he emphasised in particular that he had a completely distorted image of what was happening in Visegrad when he received orders to go to Visegrad, that he had imagined that the Serbs were the subject of genocide there, that the Muslims were slaughtering Serbs, that they were burning small children on the spit. But after the conversation that we had, and after the conversation we had with captured Serb policemen who were later released, he told me that this was a totally distorted image and that he now had a proper idea what was happening that differed from the one he had before as to what was going on in Visegrad.

Q. After the JNA arrived in Visegrad, were you summoned to a meeting at their headquarters to meet with members of the JNA?

A. Yes.

Q. Who were you summoned to meet with?

A. They invited not just me, but also the president of the Municipal Assembly of Visegrad, the president of the executive council. And I was there, too. And the invitation came directly from Colonel Ojdanic - he ²⁵⁷⁰³ was commander of the Uzice Corps - for us to come to a nearby barracks close to Visegrad for talks in connection with the problems that existed in town at the time. And indeed, we went to that meeting where we met with Colonel Ojdanic. And we talked about the situation in town, what should be done to stabilise the situation, and more or less along those lines.

But there were two meetings in that same barracks.

Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the second meeting. The second meeting, did you go to alone or did you go with other people?

A. I went to the second meeting alone, since the others who were there on the first day physically could not reach the meeting place, that is, the barracks that was just outside town. It was called Uzamnica. I was downstream in relation to the town --

Q. Sir, if I could just draw your attention to the point in time when you arrived in Uzamnica barracks. Did you have to wait prior to having your meeting on this occasion?

A. Yes. I came there. The others didn't arrive. The colonel hadn't arrived yet either. Then I went inside to the office of the local commander of that barracks - his name was Captain Boro - and I sat at the table waiting for the meeting to take place, as it had done the previous day. There were two or three officers also present sitting at the same table. I sat next to them. We just exchanged greetings, hello, hello. I didn't introduce myself in particular. There was no need. And so I sat there for a while, maybe a couple of minutes, maybe 10 minutes. And then another two officers walked into the office. They were carrying a ²⁵⁷⁰⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁵⁷⁰⁵ military map of the town of Visegrad. They put the map on the table, and they started talking amongst themselves in connection with that map and in connection with the deployment of military units that were in Visegrad at the time.

As I was present, I naturally was interested in hearing what they were talking about. And then one of the officers who had brought the map started to explain to these others and to point to places on the map, saying roughly as follows: "This part here is clean, and unit such and such is there," giving the number of the unit. Then "This area is also clear" and that is where this unit is. So he covered the entire right bank of the Drina River with these explanations, and then he said: "Tomorrow we'll be clearing this part, too," and he covered with his hand a place where I knew there were at least three or four thousand Muslim civilians.

Q. Sir, if I can just go step by step through this. The portion that they indicated -- or he indicated initially, were you able to recognise the areas of Visegrad that he was pointing to? Were you able to see on the map precisely where he was pointing?

A. Yes, quite clearly.

Q. Can you please list places or the area of Visegrad that he was pointing to.

A. Yes. When he said "this part is clear" and such a such a unit is there, and he was pointing to a location just above the barracks, a locality on the right bank of the Drina River, Velin Luk, Babin Potuk, and towards Dobrun. That was one unit. And then he would go on to point to ²⁵⁷⁰⁶ Musici and other small villages, Gostilja, and then he would say, "This is this part." And then when he says, "This part is also clear," that would be the area of the group of villages called Drinski. That is how he described it.

Q. Now, based upon your personal knowledge of what was transpiring in Visegrad at this time, what was going on in the villages that this JNA officer was referring to as having been cleared?

A. What it meant was that there were no Muslim inhabitants there, so the unit was stationed there, and the Muslim population was retreating as the army arrived. What it meant was that there were no Muslim inhabitants left there. That is what he meant when he said it was clear, or clean.

Q. What I'm asking you is, from your own personal knowledge, did you know that fact to be true? Had Muslims fled those areas that he was describing as having been cleared?

A. Yes, yes. I knew that already without him saying so because people had come, and I saw them myself personally. There were some relatives of mine from some of those locations. Then I was also informed by phone that they had left the area, that the army had already arrived there.

Q. At the time that you were looking at this map, did the officers in that room, did it appear to you that they appreciated the fact that you were a Muslim member of the Visegrad community?

A. No. I think they didn't know that. They couldn't even assume that in the commander's office there could be someone who was not close to the army, and especially not a Muslim. ²⁵⁷⁰⁷

Q. The areas that were indicated as "still needing" or "to be cleared" the next day, did you recognise those areas on the map?

A. Very clearly, because that is where I come from originally. That is where I was born, and my whole family comes from there. So I recognised clearly the place that they felt needed to be cleared. And I knew that there were three or four thousand people there.

Q. Will you now describe what happened after you viewed the map. What did you do in response to what you saw?

A. Just then, I went numb. I was dumbfounded because I could already imagine what the plan was for that locality. And all my family members, including my wife, children, and parents, they were all there. So I was paralysed for almost an hour. I couldn't utter a word properly. After about an hour, and then I was assisted by some locals, I had a cup of coffee, a glass of water, so I collected myself and came to.

Q. Did you speak to members of the JNA and insist or request that the people in that area that had been indicated as "to be cleared," that they be given protection?

A. Yes. Immediately after that, I insisted that we have a talk with Colonel Ojdanic because he was due to come to the meeting anyway. But they were saying that he may not come to the meeting since the others who were supposed to come hadn't come, but only one man had come. And I insisted that the colonel come and that we have that meeting, and that the army protect the civilians which I feared could be exposed to genocide.

Q. Did you receive assurances from Colonel Ojdanic that the civilians in that area would be given the protection of the army? ²⁵⁷⁰⁸

A. Yes. The Colonel, with some delay, did come to that meeting, and he promised that the army would protect the civilian population there. He explicitly made such a pledge.

Q. What happened the next day to those Muslims living in the area that had been indicated on the map?

A. The next day -- the Colonel promised that the next day he would gain control of the whole situation and protect the civilian population. And the next day, in a conversation with Captain Vukosavljevic, who was the barracks commander -- actually, the dam, the hydropower station, he ordered him to go with a certain number of soldiers to that locality, which is about 5 or 6 kilometres from the centre of town, to go there and to form an organised column of those people and escort them into town. And that is what was done.

JUDGE MAY: Sorry, we have to --

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: -- adjourn very sharply. Perhaps you can return to this on Monday morning.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1505, we're going to adjourn now. I'm sorry we're not able to get your evidence in today. But could you be back, please, on Monday morning to conclude it. Would you remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, at 9.00 on Monday.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. ²⁵⁷⁰⁹

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn until then.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

the 1st day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.