²⁶¹¹⁴

Tuesday, 9 September 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's three 92 bis witnesses today, but before we come to those, can I respectfully remind the Chamber that the witness we seek to call tomorrow is subject to an application yet to be resolved, and I didn't know if the Chamber was in a position to assist us for planning purposes.

JUDGE MAY: Which witness is that?

MR. NICE: Mr. Van Baal

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Van Baal. We will let you have a decision this morning.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like for the record to say that I don't think it is in order -- actually, I don't think what Mr. Nice said on Thursday was in order, while I wasn't here, because he said that I have some sort of scheme according to which -- and pattern, which is why I was absent on Thursday. From that, it would emerge that I myself, according to this pattern, organised every day last week to have been kept here for several hours, which means that I myself curtailed my time for rest and preparation, and it would appear, according to that logic, that I organised the prolongation of the work here. And quite simply, I should like to state that that kind of statement on a moral and intellectual ²⁶¹¹⁵ level at which this so-called entire -- so-called indictment is based. And for you I have a criticism personally, Mr. May, because you drew conclusions without having --

JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to listen to this, Mr. Milosevic. In your absence, a comment was made by the Prosecutor as to a pattern of your illness. He went no further than that and made no further suggestions. If he had done, we would have ordered something to be done about it. As for any other orders we may have made, we will consider the position. We now have a medical report, and we'll consider the position further.

Now, have you got any other submissions?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was just going to say, Mr. May, that before you collected all the pertinent information, you drew conclusions, and you could have come by that information from your staff, either from the detention centre or the medical staff.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. We will have the next witness.

MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would like to call Witness B-1058.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. AGHA: Your Honour, in the meantime, perhaps, since we're waiting for the witness to come, Your Honours have all been distributed with a package. Would Your Honours be so kind as perhaps to give that an exhibit number, please.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll get the next exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P531.

JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the registrar would note we'll do without the ²⁶¹¹⁶ P numbers in this case. I know other cases do, but we don't. Just give it -- Prosecution numbers get the straight number. 531.

MR. AGHA: I'd just like to clarify, Your Honours; it should be tendered under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1058

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Agha:

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can raise the blinds and go on.

MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness her pseudonym sheet, which can be found at tab number 1 of your package.

JUDGE MAY: We can do that, but is there any reason why the blinds should not be raised? Can we raise them, please.

MR. AGHA:

Q. Witness, is that your name on the top of that sheet, please?

A. Yes.

Q. And that sheet has been signed by you?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. AGHA: Could I kindly also please show the witness the 92 bis ²⁶¹¹⁷ package. This can be found at tab 2, Your Honours.

Q. Witness, is this the statement you made before investigators of the Tribunal?

A. Yes.

Q. And, Witness, is this also the statement which you certified and declared before the court officers of the Tribunal?

A. Yes.

MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'd also like to show the witness a document that is at tab 4 of your binder. Tab 3. I beg your pardon.

Q. Witness, is this a document which you have made and also signed?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a 92 bis witness, so if it pleases Your Honours, I'll just briefly read out the essence of the witness's testimony.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. AGHA: At the time of the incidents mentioned in this summary, the witness had been living in Zvornik with her husband and two sons for the last 20 years. Prior to the war in Zvornik, a majority of the population were Muslim.

In 1991, the witness saw the fall of Vukovar in Croatia on Belgrade television. At the time, she could hardly believe this and thought that she was watching old World War II footage. In March 1992, she saw on television the events in Bijeljina, which again she could hardly believe. However, her sister, who was living in Bijeljina, told ²⁶¹¹⁸ the witness that it was true and that their other sister's two sons had been murdered outside the garrison in Bijeljina. The first indications of the spreading of war to Zvornik occurred a few days before the attack on Zvornik when there was small-arms fire coming from Mali Zvornik and the arrival of tanks in the area. On April the 8th, negotiations were held in Mali Zvornik with Arkan, who represented the Serbs. Witness B-1237 was present who, after the meeting, came to the witness and told her that the situation was grave and advised her to leave.

THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down, thank you.

MR. AGHA: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down.

MR. AGHA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. The witness, however, decided to stay as she had Serb friends and had not done anything wrong.

The attack on Zvornik commenced later in the evening when Zvornik was shelled from Mali Zvornik. The witness and other people who were living in her apartment block in Filipa Kljajica Street took cover in the cellar of the building. The cellar became full. In the cellar there were about 12 men, 15 to 16 women, three children and two babies. In the morning at about 10.00, the witness heard a strong detonation and the door to the cellar was exploded open. Immediately after the door was opened, about ten soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms, black wooly hats rolled down as masks, and fingerless gloves burst into the cellar and threatened them with long rifles. The witness could tell ²⁶¹¹⁹ that they were Serbs by their accents.

The people in the cellar were told to hand over their weapons and the men were ordered outside to be searched. No one in the cellar had any weapons, not even a pocket knife. The women and children were rushed out of the cellar. However, the witness saw the men from the cellar with their hands on their heads and with their backs facing the apartment building.

The witness was the last person out of the cellar and was ordered not to look round and to go to the SUP building. One soldier forced the witness to move by putting a rifle to her back and cursed her. After the witness had walked about 20 kilometres [sic] from the cellar, she heard a simultaneous burst of gunfire from behind. The witness tried to look around, but the soldiers poked her in the back with the rifles and prevented her from doing so. According to the witness, the gunshots could only have come from the area outside the apartment building where the men from the cellar were lined up.

On the way to the SUP building, the witness saw two dead bodies lying outside houses. Loud Chetnik music was also being played out of cassette players as the witness walked down the street. The witness and the others were made to go inside the library which is opposite the SUP building where other soldiers were abusive to them and cursing Alija Izetbegovic.

The soldiers in the library told the witness that they were Seselj's men and that they were the good guys and that all the killings had been done by Arkan's men. The witness knew that this was not true as ²⁶¹²⁰ Seselj's men had also fully participated in the killing of the men in the cellar.

Whilst the witness was in the library, a Serb woman named Vera was allowed by the soldiers to go back to the apartment building to change her clothes. When Vera came back, she told another lady in the library that she had seen the awful sight of the dead bodies of the men who had been taken out of the cellar. Other women who later arrived in the library also said that they had seen the dead bodies of the witness's men outside their apartment building.

Later in the day, Arkan came to the library and told them that he would send buses to pick them up. The buses arrived on the same day, and the witness and the others were herded onto them. Whilst travelling through Zvornik, the witness saw many other dead bodies lying in the garden of houses. Before the bus left Zvornik, four men were taken off the bus. The witness never saw these men again. The witness was dropped off in Banja Koviljaca in Serbia.

About a week later, the witness and a friend returned to Zvornik to find out what had happened to the bodies of their men. The witness was directed to the Serb headquarters in Karakaj where their commander told her that the men she was looking for were not on any of their lists and she could go home.

As the witness was leaving to walk the three kilometres back into Zvornik, she saw a truck which was about to leave, and the commander told the witness to get a lift back on the truck. The soldiers in the truck, however, were not prepared to take the "balijas," so they had to walk on ²⁶¹²¹ foot.

The witness then went to see Grujic who was president of the Serb municipality. Grujic, however, told the witness that he could not help her and that there was no longer a place for Muslims in Zvornik. The witness briefly went back to her own apartment block and at the spot where she had last seen the men from the cellar saw her husband's hat and one of her son's sports shoes on the ground covered in blood. There was also blood which was peppered bullet holes on the walls. On the ground, the witness also saw a number of spent bullets and three or four garotte wires.

Of the men who were taken from the cellar and killed outside, one was the witness's husband and two others were her sons, aged 22 and 24 at that time.

Now, if Your Honours may permit me, I would just like to show, under seal, one or two exhibits and ask the witness to comment on those.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. AGHA:

Q. Now, the first photograph is at tab number 4, and I would kindly ask the witness, please, to tell me if she can identify who that person is in the picture.

A. My husband. My husband.

Q. And could I also please ask the witness to look at the picture which is in tab number 5 and ask the witness, please, to identify the people in that picture if she can.

A. My two sons. ²⁶¹²²

Q. And finally, I would like to show the witness another picture which has already previously been tendered.

A. Arkan and that other associate of his. I don't know what his name is. But one is Arkan.

JUDGE MAY: Is there an exhibit number for that exhibit, Mr. Agha.

MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. 414, tab 1.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. AGHA:

Q. Thank you, Witness.

MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. That finishes the evidence in chief for this witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, before I start examining this witness, I have a question. In point 7 of the statement, mention is made of a man by name and surname, somebody who attended negotiations in Zvornik, in actual fact. Now, is that a protected name or not?

JUDGE MAY: I don't recognise it for the minute, but I will ask Mr. Agha's assistance.

MR. AGHA: Your Honour, that indeed is a protected witness who has already given evidence in these proceedings.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, it's protected then.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it the protected witness who Mr. Agha Khan mentioned under pseudonym of 1237? Is that the one?

JUDGE MAY: We will get it checked.

MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour, protective measures. ²⁶¹²³

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Madam 1058, I'm just going to ask you questions which I consider to be important in order to establish the truthfulness of this. I shall do my best not to hurt you with any of my questions in view of the fact that you lost your husband and your son, according to what it says here in your statement.

A. Two sons.

Q. You said that on Belgrade television in 1991, you saw the station reporting about the events in Vukovar, and in March 1992, a film, as you say, about the war in Bijeljina; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You yourself say that you believed that it was intimidation, instilling fear and that that was something -- some footage from World War II; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you learnt about both these events via Belgrade television, and you didn't actually believe what you were seeing; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You also say, in paragraph 5, that your sister, who lived in Bijeljina, in a telephone conversation told you that she was so frightened that she couldn't exactly tell you what was happening in Bijeljina; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Well, is it also true that the sons of your sister were also ²⁶¹²⁴ killed?

A. Of my other sister, not the one I -- not this one.

Q. You mean not the one you were talking to on that occasion?

A. That's right.

Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which they were killed? Do you know?

A. Well, they were killed because Arkan's men took them away to the garrison, and the children later asked to go and see their grandmother to tell her where they were and that they would come back straight away. The children did come back, but in coming back, they shot at them.

Q. Do you know who shot at them?

A. I wasn't there, so I didn't see it myself, but they were killed by Arkan's men and by the Serbs.

Q. Did anybody tell you who shot at them of the people who were there?

A. Well, nobody was there when they killed them. They just met them on the road.

Q. How many people were killed in Bijeljina, lost their lives?

A. I don't know. I can't say. But many people died. How many exactly, I really don't know.

Q. You say, paragraph 6, that you didn't know until the very outbreak of the conflict in Zvornik that the conflict would take place; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it also true that everyone else was saying that there would be ²⁶¹²⁵ no conflict?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you say that there were negotiations and that a man who had the pseudonym 1237 here and who was an official in Zvornik attended; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that also because later on that same man who attended the negotiations came to your house and told you that it had been agreed that the Muslims should surrender their weapons; is that right?

A. He said that things would not be good and that we should flee.

Q. He told you to flee or that it wouldn't be a good thing for you to flee?

A. He told us to flee, that things would not be good.

Q. And you say in paragraph 7 that this man, after that meeting, "came to our house and told us that it had been agreed that the Muslims surrender their weapons."

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know what position that man held?

A. No.

Q. You didn't know what position he had in the municipality or the Territorial Defence?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Well, tell me, then, why did he come to your particular house? Was he a friend or relative of yours?

A. He had a sister. ²⁶¹²⁶

Q. In your house?

A. Yes.

Q. So he said that it had been agreed for the Muslims to hand over the weapons they owned. Those people who broke into the cellar in Zvornik told us that weapons should be handed in and that the men should be searched, and that is how they took out the men.

JUDGE MAY: Can I remind you, please, both the witness and Mr. Milosevic, remember that this has to be interpreted, so can you leave breaks between the questions and the answers.

Now, you should have that in mind, Mr. Milosevic, because you've done it often enough before, but it will be new to the witness, but can you both leave breaks.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I was saying that he told you that the Muslims should hand over the weapons they possessed, because I'm reading from your statement in paragraph 7: "He told us that an agreement had been made for the Muslims to hand over their weapons." Is that right, Madam 1058?

A. He knew that we didn't have any weapons.

Q. I not entering into that.

A. But I don't know.

Q. But that's what you said in your statement, and you confirmed it a moment ago and signed it. So you don't remember that?

A. No.

Q. Very well. But he also advised you to leave Zvornik. ^{26127 BLANK PAGE 26128}

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Though you yourself claimed that you had more friends among the Serbs than among the Muslims.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, do you know what he had given similar advice to other Muslims?

A. Those of us who were in the cellar.

Q. Very well. So only to you who were there, that's how you know. That's what you know about.

A. Yes.

Q. In paragraph 8 you say the attacks started in the afternoon of the 8th of April.

A. In the evening, yes.

THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear that question.

JUDGE MAY: Can you repeat the question, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are you quite sure that the attack on Zvornik, as you describe it in paragraph 8, commenced on the 8th of April? You are specifying now in the evening of the 8th of April.

A. Very well.

Q. And that is when you went to the cellar of your building?

A. No. We went before that.

Q. Before that?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. What -- what prompted you to go into the basement before then if ²⁶¹²⁹ the attack started later? Had you been informed about the conflict beginning?

A. Because they were saying that we should seek shelter in the basements, that we shouldn't go outside, that we shouldn't walk in the streets, that we should seek shelter in the basement.

Q. And who told you that?

A. Well, on the radio there were such announcements.

Q. That was radio Zvornik, I assume, the local radio.

A. Yes.

Q. And that is when you went to the basement of your building?

A. It was a Sunday, I don't remember the date, when we went down to the basement, and we stayed there throughout.

Q. As you say, there were another 12 or so men, 15 women and children; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you spent the night there up until 10.00 a.m. on the next morning, that is the 9th of April; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please, the men who were with you that night, did they leave at all?

A. No. No, they didn't.

Q. So they stayed in the shelter all the time?

A. Yes.

Q. And as Mr. Kahn noted a moment ago, none of them were armed; is that right? ²⁶¹³⁰

A. No one.

Q. So you're quite sure of that?

A. Quite sure.

Q. And then about 10.00 you say there was a strong detonation which caused the door to break down and ten men broke in, wearing camouflage uniform, you say.

A. Ten or so. I can't be quite sure about the number, but ten or so.

Q. Can you describe those camouflage uniforms.

A. You know very well what camouflage uniforms looked like. You know that very well. Black. And you could just see their mouths and eyes. Those were the caps which covered their faces, with slits for eyes and mouth. You know that very well. I don't need to describe them to you.

Q. What did they want from you?

A. They wanted the men to come outside, allegedly to be searched.

Q. How many of them were speaking?

A. I don't know. I don't remember.

Q. You say that by their accent, by their dialect, you judged that they were from Serbia. So you must have heard them speak.

A. Yes, that's right. Two or three of them. I don't remember.

Q. You can't say what the others were on the basis of their speech?

A. I don't know.

Q. And is it possible that some of them were locals?

A. I don't know.

Q. Very well. You say that you were separated from the men, and the women and children were ordered to move towards the SUP of Zvornik, and ²⁶¹³¹ the men stayed behind in front of the entrance to the building. Is that exactly how it happened?

A. Yes, exactly so.

Q. Now, tell me, please, how much time went by until you heard the shots.

A. Five minutes, not more.

Q. How far had you gone in those five minutes?

A. Maybe 200 metres.

Q. At the time, you didn't know what had happened to the men from your building; is that right?

A. They opened fire when we had moved away, some 200 metres away, they started shooting. I started -- I wanted to turn around, however, the soldier was pointing his automatic rifle at my back.

Q. So you didn't manage to turn around, and you couldn't see anything.

A. No, they didn't let me.

Q. In paragraph 11, you say that moving towards the SUP you saw the body of Hakija Sehic and Fehim Kujundzic, but you're not sure of that because you couldn't see properly.

A. I am sure.

Q. Now you're sure?

A. Yes, I'm sure. I saw them.

Q. But as you say here that you didn't see it quite well, how is it that you're quite sure that it was one of these two?

A. Of course I'm sure when they were my neighbours. ²⁶¹³²

Q. And then you say that you saw a certain Izet. From what distance did you see him?

A. About 400 metres. This is all one street.

Q. Very well. And how is it that you're sure from such a distance that those were all bodies of Muslims and there wasn't a single Serb?

A. There was no distance; it wasn't far away.

Q. Very well. How far away it was is relative. You go on to say that you were sure that Arkan's took part in all these killings; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were the local Serbs throughout that period of time?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you see anyone?

A. No.

Q. You say that those same soldiers broke into a sweet shop and distributed sweets to children. Were there Muslim children among them?

A. Yes.

Q. So they were killing Muslims and giving Muslim children chocolates and sweets.

A. Yes, to learn from the children whether there were any weapons, who had those weapons, and so on.

Q. Why were they giving them sweets?

A. Because you know what children are like; they wanted to learn from the children things.

Q. How do you know that they questioned them? ²⁶¹³³

A. I was there.

Q. So you heard them questioning the children?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And later on a Serb woman that is mentioned here by the name of Vera, so I won't read out her surname, and two Muslim women, Raza and Sadija - is that right - and a third, Zuhra, told you that they had seen dead people in front of your building; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was then that you had no doubts as to the fact that they had been killed? That they had been killed; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, please, a week later you went to Zvornik again with your sister from Bijeljina.

A. Yes.

Q. To find out what had happened to all the people who had been with you in the cellar; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you say that you spoke to a person called Dragan Nikolic.

A. Yes.

Q. And that after looking through two lists, he told you that he hadn't seen the names of any family members that you were looking for on those lists; is that --

A. Yes.

Q. So what was the conclusion you drew from that?

A. What had happened. ²⁶¹³⁴

Q. Since you're speaking about wires and things, does that mean that the men who were with you in the shelter were first tied up?

A. I didn't see it, so I can't say.

Q. So you didn't see anyone tying them up.

A. I didn't.

Q. And you heard shots five minutes after you had left the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Madam 1058, tell me, please, when did you see this person whom we mentioned -- of course you can't remember these numbers. The pseudonym is 1237 of this person. When did you last see this man after he came to see you after the negotiations? I don't want to mention his name as he is protected.

A. I never saw him again since then.

Q. After he had told you to surrender your weapons and to leave?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. As he's a protected -- do you know that he was a witness here sometime ago?

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. He testified here, saying, among other things, that he personally saw, from a distance of 500 metres, your husband and son being killed.

A. Many people saw it.

Q. But that differs very much from what you are saying. Where are the other ten people, then? He was talking about seeing the two of them.

JUDGE MAY: The witness can only say what she saw. Now, whether somebody else claims to have seen something different from 500 metres away ²⁶¹³⁵ is maybe a matter of comment, that's all, but the witness can't answer as to what somebody else saw.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this is allegedly a witness of the killing, the testimony of an eyewitness, and quite clearly these facts differ.

JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that this witness is not telling the truth in describing what happened when her husband and two sons were killed? Are you suggesting that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just wish to establish what truly happened, and the witness herself says that she didn't see it. All she knows is that her family members were killed, but she doesn't know under which circumstances nor where or how. She just assumes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. But -- just one moment. She saw them lined up, facing the apartment building, with their hands on their heads. She then heard the gunfire. Now, that is what she can say. Subsequently, they were killed or they were killed at the time. But she can't take it any further. That's her evidence. That's what she said happened. Now, if there's any doubt about what happened, then of course you can make a point to us. It will be up to us to decide. But I don't think this witness can take it very much further. She said what she saw, and there's no doubt that these men were killed.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only question is whether they were killed in battle or somebody shot them in cold blood.

JUDGE MAY: Are you seriously suggesting that these men were in some sort of battle? Is that what you're seriously suggesting, and that ²⁶¹³⁶ this witness is not telling the truth about her husband and two sons? If you are, you should say so, so that she may deal with it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I cannot claim anything with respect to Zvornik because I don't know, but we do have two different statements by this witness and Witness 1237.

JUDGE MAY: There is no point -- there is no point arguing about it now. It will be for us to decide if there's any significance in these differences which you claim. But really, we shouldn't detain this witness here any more, but if you're suggesting in any way that she is not telling the truth about what happened to her husband and two sons, then you should say so.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have any information about this, Mr. May, as to what happened to her husband and her sons, but I do have information about what the witness has been saying and what this other witness said who is an alleged eyewitness. There is a major difference involved.

JUDGE MAY: That is what you say. It will be a matter for us to say whether there is any significance.

Now, have you any other questions for this witness or not?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a few questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. A very direct question, Madam 1058: Are you sure that your husband and son were not participants in the battles in Zvornik and around Zvornik on that day?

A. One hundred per cent certain. I vouch that with my very own life. ²⁶¹³⁷

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never found out where they were. Had they had any weapons, they would have been in the woods, they would not have been in the cellar. You should understand that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since they were not found, it could not have been established how they lost their lives. So you do not have any information about that, do you?

A. You ask Grujic where he moved them, from one graveyard to another grave and then to a third grave, where they were being taken from one grave to another. It was Grujic who did that.

Q. I can't ask him about that. I don't know about him moving people this way.

A. Well, I know that he did move from one grave to another.

Q. Tell me, Madam 1058, you left Zvornik on the 9th of April, 1992; is that right?

A. Yes, when I was expelled.

Q. And a week later, you came back and again the same day you went back to Bijeljina; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you only briefly returned on that day a week later.

A. I could not have stayed when they were expelling all Muslims, expelling and killing them.

Q. Do you live in Zvornik nowadays?

A. No. ²⁶¹³⁸

Q. And during the war, did you come to Zvornik again?

A. I came when they asked us to come and to report in order to receive accommodation, but they killed many, many people, then caught them and killed them. I didn't mention this in my statement. It's not in the statement. I said it now so that you'd know.

Q. All right. When was this that you came to Zvornik again?

A. In the beginning of May.

Q. What year?

A. 1992.

Q. So a week after the 9th of April you were there and the beginning of May yet again?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you come again in the beginning of May?

A. They asked us to come and to register with the SUP, allegedly, in order to receive accommodation. People who had houses, apartments, were supposed to register their names so that it would be known that they were alive so that they could get their property back or give it up.

Q. So did you register there?

A. Yes.

Q. Why didn't you stay in your own house?

A. I couldn't stay.

Q. Could you please explain this? I don't understand. They asked you to come to register there?

A. Yes.

Q. And to continue living there normally? ²⁶¹³⁹

A. Yes.

Q. So why didn't you stay?

A. Well, they killed everybody.

Q. Oh, they killed everybody who came back?

A. Yes, all of those who registered and who stayed on. They were killed.

Q. How much time did you spend this other time when you were there in the beginning of May?

A. Three or four days. It's not in my statement, and I don't see why you should ask me about this.

Q. Although it's not in your statement, you are speaking about it now.

A. All right. I should make it clear that I know everything.

Q. I do want it to be established, what actually happened, that is. Now, tell me, please, you recognised some people here in some photographs. I received this file of yours.

A. Yes.

Q. The photographs of some persons whom you recognised.

A. Yes.

Q. And these are the people who barged into the cellar; is that right?

A. Yes. No, not everybody. Arkan did not enter the cellar.

Q. I'm not talking about Arkan. You could have seen Arkan on television.

A. No, not on television. I saw him myself. ^{26140 BLANK PAGE 26141}

Q. All right. So you saw him yourself. Tell me, please, how could you recognise these people who had been in the cellar if they, as you had described it yourself, had caps drawn down their faces with slits for the eyes and mouths only?

A. Not everybody was masked. I already said that. There were some people who were not masked. They introduced themselves as being Seselj's men. Those who were not masked said that they were Seselj's men.

Q. All right. That means that when you say that they entered the cellar with wooly caps with slits for the eyes and mouth, that pertains only to one part of them. The other part did not have caps.

A. Yes.

Q. So they were not masked.

A. Yes, but they were together.

Q. Why is it that you say this only now? In the statement you said that people with wooly caps drawn over their heads and faces with slits for their eyes and mouth, you mentioned that now.

A. Yes.

Q. And you recognised them, they had these caps?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you explained that some of them did not have caps.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. How do you explain this now that some had caps and others didn't when in the statement you said that everybody was wearing a cap?

A. I said that some did not wear caps. They introduced themselves as being Seselj's men, and they did not wear any caps. ²⁶¹⁴²

Q. So when they barged into the cellar they said --

A. Together. Together. Those who were masked, they took the men out and killed them. And those who were not masked dealt with us, the women and children.

Q. All right.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It may not matter very much how many of them were masked and how many were not. But just let me get this clear, please, Witness B-1058: Did these men say they were Seselj's men?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mrs. 1058, I'm going to quote your very own statement to you. It's the end of paragraph 9: "As soon as the door opened, about ten soldiers barged into the room."

A. Yes.

Q. "Wearing camouflage uniforms and wooly caps across their heads, and they pointed long rifles at us. The masks had slits for the eyes and the mouth, and some of them also wore black fingerless gloves, leather gloves."

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you describe this quite clearly, that masked people came in.

A. Yes.

Q. Now you say that some people who walked in were masked and others were not. ²⁶¹⁴³

A. Behind them were those who were not masked. First the masked ones got in and then the ones without masks. They were together. However, the first ones to appear at the door were those with the masks.

Q. That means those you recognised here in these photographs. I'm not talking about Arkan, he did not enter with him; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. They were behind them, and they were not wearing caps. They were not masked, and those are the ones you recognised.

MR. AGHA: I apologise for butting in at this stage, but actually these questions regarding Seselj's men and who said they were Seselj's and who was participating in the cellar is covered actually in the addendum at tab number 3, where, if I may kindly direct you to the second column --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd go on. Yes. If you would just point out the passage so that we can all see it and hear it.

MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. It's a passage which in the second column on the English at the tab, and it says: "When we get towards the SUP building, we were told to go into the library opposite the SUP building. The soldiers who remained in the library were abusive to us and cursed our mothers... They said that they were Seselj's men and that they were the good guys whereas Arkan's men had done the killings. We all knew that that was not true and that Seselj's men had fully participated in the killings themselves."

So she's actually clearly stating that Seselj's and Arkan's men participated in the killings, and she's made this just to make it absolutely clear on this point because when she made her statement, she ²⁶¹⁴⁴ clearly omitted to say all of the people who were there. So she wanted to make this very point Mr. Milosevic is now making clear to the Court.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mrs. 1058. These men you recognised are not among the ten or so who barged into the cellar with wooly caps on their faces?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. Where did you see the ones you recognised? Could you explain that to me, because they're not ones with the wooly caps who barged into your cellar. Where did you see them?

A. I saw some in my sister's yard, sitting there. The next time I saw him in a house, the best man of my sister, his house.

Q. When was this?

A. In 1992.

Q. How did this happen when you just dropped in after a week to ask about these lists and you returned immediately?

A. My sister's place in Bijeljina. He was sitting there in the yard.

Q. All right.

A. In Janja. He was sitting in Janja in my sister's best man's house.

Q. Oh, I understand now. The people you recognised.

A. Yes.

Q. One you saw in Bijeljina sitting in the yard of your sister's house and the other one you saw sitting in Janja. ²⁶¹⁴⁵

A. Yes. No, no, no, no. He was in Bijeljina -- I mean in Zvornik.

Q. Where was he in Zvornik?

A. I can't remember where I saw him in Zvornik.

Q. All right. You saw one in Janja. You saw one in Bijeljina. At the time when you saw this man in Janja and in Bijeljina, there were no clashes. There was no fighting. You saw some people just sitting there; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. What did they have to do with the men who barged into your cellar with masks on their faces?

A. Because he also had a higher position.

Q. I don't understand what you're saying.

A. He was holding a higher position.

Q. Who was holding a higher position?

A. The one I recognised.

Q. Where did you see him, at which position? What is this office he held?

A. I don't know.

Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.

MR. AGHA: Again, Your Honour, I'd like just to make clear that this point about the recognition of photographs which Mr. Milosevic is making is again covered in the addendum in the final paragraph. And as you'll appreciate, the witness first made her statement in 1996. This is at tab 3. And at tab 3, it clearly states: "When I originally made my statement in 1996, I could remember what some of the ²⁶¹⁴⁶ people looked like who I saw enter the cellar, and I identified those I was shown pictures of which were attached to my statement." Which indeed they are. "However, due to the passage of time, I'm now only definitely able to identify Arkan in some of the photos which are attached to my statement."

So she's clearly made it clear that more than -- nearly ten years has passed and her recollection isn't so good. She's trying to be honest about this.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall be very brief, by think that it should be clarified for you, this particular matter that has to do with the recognition of these men and what they said there.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] The statement that you gave on the 28th and the 29th of September was, after all, quite soon after everything that happened, and here in paragraph 12 - so this is page 3 of the B/C/S version - you said: "Whether we got to the SUP building, we were ordered to go into the library opposite the SUP building. The soldiers who remained in the library were abusive to us and cursed our mothers and Alija Izetbegovic."

And then you say here -- that's what you say in 1996. And later on you corrected it a bit: "They said that they were Arkan's men and that they were the good guys, whereas Seselj's men had done all the killings." ²⁶¹⁴⁷ So that's the way you had put it then, that they had said to you that they were Arkan's men. That is paragraph 12 of your statement. This is the first statement you gave, after all. Can you explain this to the Judges, how come this difference?

A. I don't remember. Well, maybe I was so upset that I put it the other way round.

Q. Thank you. Please, during those days about which you are testifying now, between all these sides, Muslims, Serbs, Croats, were there any conflicts at all?

A. No.

Q. Any -- did anybody get hurt or killed during these conflicts at all then?

A. In Zvornik during those first days, nobody had any weapons and there were no war operations. They were only all over the place killing people, et cetera.

Q. Was there a conflict round some hill? That's my last question.

A. The hill Kula. There was some fighting there.

Q. So were there any victims there?

A. I don't know. This is a bit further away from where I am.

Q. Thank you. Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE KWON: Madam 1058, when answering the questions from the accused, you spoke about the -- Mr. Grujic moving bodies from one graveyard to another and then to another, a third graveyard. Could you elaborate on that. From whom did you hear that? ²⁶¹⁴⁸

A. People talked about this, people who were watching from Mali Zvornik. This is on the other side of the Drina only. They were watching through binoculars and the president was giving orders, this Grujic, this president, he was giving orders for this kind of transfer of corpses. People who watched this through binoculars from the other bank of the Drina River.

JUDGE KWON: Did somebody hear Grujic ordering such acts?

A. He gave orders for everything. Everything that was going on in Zvornik took place on his orders.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

MR. AGHA: No re-examination, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1058, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for having asked me to come and testify, to say the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Could you just wait while these blinds are lowered.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Groome. There's something I want to talk about.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, there are two matters of evidence I could deal with. First, Mr. Van Baal, we will admit his transcript under Rule ²⁶¹⁴⁹ 92 bis, subject to cross-examination.

There is one other matter which doesn't concern your part of the case but it would be convenient to deal with it since we were talking of it on our last hearing, and that concerns the statement of Braddock Scott, Captain Braddock Scott, and there was a discussion as to whether the Trial Chamber may consider calling him. We have considered that and we shall not be calling him.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: If you would pass that on, please. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness B-1610. He is the subject of protective measures, so I'd ask that he be brought in before we lift the blinds.

JUDGE KWON: The transcript should say the Trial Chamber would not be calling.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1610

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be seeking to tender one binder containing 12 tabs of exhibits. Could I ask that a ²⁶¹⁵⁰ number be assigned at this stage.

THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 532.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask we go into private session for a preliminary matter.

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[Open session] Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, your testimony has been received by the Chamber in written form. I only have one question for you in addition to that.

MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 532, tab 12. It is a photograph.

Q. And, sir, I ask you to take a look at this photograph and ask you: Do you recognise the person in that photograph?

A. Yes, I do recognise him; it is Veljko Milankovic.

MR. GROOME: And Ms. Wee reminds me that I have forgotten something. Could I ask that the witness be shown tab 1 of the same exhibit, or a sheet. I'm sorry, we're a little bit disorganised this morning. Can I ask that the witness be shown a sheet, and I will ask that it be included as tab 13 of Exhibit 532.

Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at that sheet of paper. Is that ²⁶¹⁵² your name on the top of that piece of paper?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you can begin your cross-examination, but we'll break off fairly soon because it will be time for the adjournment, but you can certainly ask a few questions first.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1610, in paragraph 4 of your statement, which you gave on the 22nd of October, 2001, you say that you had never been a member of any political party; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And you go on to say that even now you're not interested in politics; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. However, that's not true. You did become a member of the SDA party, and you said previously -- and I should like to draw your attention to that, Mr. May, that we took this formulation -- to the effect that you became a member of the SDA party during your stay in Germany.

A. That's not true. That's not correct.

Q. You can check it out and verify whether this was what was stated previously. I can give you a detailed quote or, rather, the place you can find it, but I can't give it in open session due to the restrictions imposed.

So what you said on a previous occasion about your membership in ^{26153 BLANK PAGE 26154} the SDA party in Germany in 1993 you actually knew when you made your statement in 2001. So why didn't you stipulate that then?

A. That's not true. I'm not a member of the SDA party.

Q. So that means you stated that erroneously in a previous statement.

A. I didn't say it. I'm not a member of the SDA party, or any other party, for that matter.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you have all this written down and recorded, so I don't want to go back to that issue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, you go on to say the following, and if you want me to tell you the lines and pages, I can do so.

JUDGE MAY: Don't give the page numbers in open session. We can deal with that, if we need to, in private session. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 8, you say that in 1991, a certain man whom you say was from Knin, at a rally that was held of the SDS party in Prnjavor, addressed the Serbs that had gathered there and said that they should sell their last cow and buy weapons for themselves. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. You, of course, did not attend that SDS rally, I assume.

A. No, I did not.

Q. Well, how come you can claim that that is what this man said, actually said? ²⁶¹⁵⁵

A. I claim that on the basis of what my neighbours told me who were passing by at the time.

Q. So there was an SDS rally, and some of your neighbours happened to be passing by and heard the man say that and then told you who the man was and what he said, and that is the basis you're testifying on; is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, you go on to say that in the Prnjavor municipality, the first checkpoints appeared in 1991. Isn't that right? You say that in paragraph 9 of your statement.

A. Yes.

Q. When was that in 1991 more exactly?

A. I don't know the exact date because I was in the Territorial Defence myself, so I can't give you an exact date. I don't know.

Q. Well, was it the beginning, the middle, or the end of the year? Can you tell us roughly? I know you can't tell us the exact date but you must have a rough idea of when it was during that year because you are testifying about it.

A. Well, it might have been sometime towards the end of 1991.

Q. I see. The end of 1991. Right. And you also say in that same paragraph that most of those checkpoints were located next to a place inhabited by Muslims. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you mean to say that those checkpoints were erected in order to control the Muslims and not in order to provide security on the territory of the whole municipality? Is that what you're saying? ²⁶¹⁵⁶

A. Because of the Muslims. And if you were Muslim, you had to have a permit to be able to pass through the checkpoint, a pass.

Q. Well, as far as my information tells me, everybody had to have a pass to go through the checkpoints, not only the Muslims.

A. Yes, that is true, except for the fact that the Muslims were checked more strictly.

Q. I see. Now, these checkpoints, were they on the main road, the main road running from Prnjavor towards Banja Luka?

A. Yes, that's right. They were also in Klasnice. There were checkpoints there too.

Q. All right. If they were on the main read from Prnjavor to Banja Luka, the main Prnjavor-Banja Luka road, that means that they were not erected and not located just beside Muslim villages. They were simply put up on the main road at all points where byroads connected with the main road. That's right, isn't it?

A. No. There was the village of Lisnja, that's where there was a checkpoint, towards Mravice. Right beside our village, actually.

Q. Well, all right. But all those roads -- and you have here in tab 2 a map of the Prnjavor municipality on which you can see that there are far more Serb villages than Prnjavor itself. You have the ethnic structure of Prnjavor there, and you can see that there were several times more Serb inhabitants there and Serb villages than there were Muslim villages and Muslim inhabitants and so on. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And then I'm sure you're -- you have in mind something that has ²⁶¹⁵⁷ been handed to me under the form of tab 3, and it says the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as the header, Ministry of the Interior, Security Services Centre Banja Luka. That's what the document says. And it is sent to the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the Assembly, to the government, to the Ministry of the Interior, and also to the Banja Luka Corps of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. The date is the 23rd of September, 1991, and the document was signed by Stojan Zupljanin, chief of the security centre in Banja Luka. And the information is being sent reporting to the MUP corps, government Assembly, Presidency, and so on, and it states: "We are sending you information about -- on the activities of armed groups on the territory covered by the Banja Luka security services centre. Please find enclosed a report on that." And then it says that various forms of illegal activity are on the rise, are escalating, ever more numerous armed groups wearing uniforms and civilian clothing alike. And then it goes on to talk about ever increasing gunfire in public places, the mistreatment and abuse of citizens, the holdup and seizure of freight and passenger vehicles, shooting on active and reserve police officers, and it speaks about the general concern that this could escalate further, et cetera. So now, Mr. 1610, were these checkpoints erected in order to provide security, and does that follow on from this piece of information and document and what it contains, or are you saying that it was the Muslims who were controlled through these checkpoints?

A. If there was abuse and mistreatment by the Serbs, then that -- then it was -- that Serbs could mistreat and abuse Serbs, that wasn't ²⁶¹⁵⁸ possible. They must have done it to the Croats and Muslims.

Q. Now, judging by this chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin, I would say that he was a Serb, especially as his first name is Stojan. Isn't that right?

A. All I can say is what happened in our parts.

Q. I'm asking you whether he is a Serb. So is he complaining, as far up as the Presidency --

JUDGE MAY: The witness may not know this gentleman. It would be doubtful if he does. But I think this would be a suitable moment to adjourn.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I address the Chamber briefly in private session?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Could I address the Chamber briefly in private session?

JUDGE MAY: We will go into private session. Private session, please.

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JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1610, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that most of the men at these checkpoints belonged to the Territorial Defence, that there were some military policemen as well; is that right? ²⁶¹⁶²

A. Yes.

Q. You also say that you know that a captain, a captain from the Banja Luka region, was in charge of the whole region and that he issued the order to erect those checkpoints. Is that right? Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, please, were you too a member of the Territorial Defence at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And many other Muslims were also members of the Territorial Defence in those days, weren't they?

A. Yes. There were also five Serbs in my village.

Q. As far as I can see, you were a member of a TO unit which consisted of 48 Muslims and five Serbs; is that right?

A. No. The total was 48.

Q. Of which five were Serbs; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. The call to join the TO in 1991 was received from the military department in Prnjavor; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And your call-up paper, as you state in paragraph 10, was signed by a certain Meho Jasarevic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he a Muslim too?

A. Yes. ²⁶¹⁶³

Q. And like all reservists in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, you had a military uniform at home, didn't you?

A. I didn't have it at home, but we were given a uniform.

Q. And what was the uniform like, Mr. 1610?

A. Olive-grey green.

Q. The customary military uniform, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Identical to those worn by JNA; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that at the time, from the TO warehouse, you were issued two machine-guns, some 50 M-48 rifles with 30 bullets each, and 150 bullets for the machine-guns?

A. We were issued two machine-guns, M-48 rifles, and six or seven were not in working order.

Q. But all this was happening in 1991, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Now, tell me, in those days carrying out those duties in the TO, were you authorised to take into custody people who did not have licenses and were carrying weapons to search vehicles and patrol the village and its environs?

A. Yes. And there were two policemen with us who were also reservists.

Q. And is it true that the TO unit, that is the one you were in as well, had been formed by that same captain whose name is Nedjo, as you state here, and who distributed the weapons to you? ²⁶¹⁶⁴

A. This came from the military department. The instructions were to maintain the law and order in our village so as to avoid any problems arising.

Q. You yourself say there were 48 of you, of whom five were Serbs. How then can you claim that those checkpoints were erected to check Muslims when you yourself, as a Muslim and the other Muslims from your village, were also armed? In a large majority of cases you patrolled the village, searched people and vehicles as they went by.

A. Not the surroundings of the village. Our duties were limited to the village and the side roads.

Q. But the roads around the village. Your village is not the main road, is it?

A. Yes. Our village is -- lies close to the main road.

Q. So you were patrolling that area, searching and checking the population and passengers; is that right?

A. Yes. You would notice a person driving something. We would check out whether he had any weapons. If he did, we would confiscate it and so on.

Q. So my question is: Why are you claiming that those checkpoints were erected to check Muslims?

A. We had quite a lot of ammunition should there be any attacks, and the rifles were in order. So of course it was against Muslims. Others, for instance, in Potocani they had mortars, hand grenades.

Q. But there were 48 of you, of whom only five were Serbs, and yet you say that the checkpoints were erected against the Muslims. So you -- ²⁶¹⁶⁵ there were 43 of you Muslims were organising checkpoints against Muslims, and you're claiming they were made there against the Muslims.

A. Well, of course they were against the Muslims, because first of all, the Muslims were in the minority there. And I am claiming that you had to have a special permit. You had to pay for it to be able to go outside of Prnjavor. So we couldn't move around anywhere.

Q. I'm not discussing the measures that apply to the population and the circumstances described by the chief of the security centre in his letter to the Presidency and other bodies. What I'm saying is that you in your unit had a majority, a large majority of Muslim members. Is that right or not?

A. Yes, it is right that this was almost a purely Muslim village, the village of Lisnja.

Q. But you were armed, and you were part of the TO.

A. Yes, we did have weapons.

Q. You certainly remember that in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina in those days, the Yugoslav People's Army was still the only legal armed force, and Bosnia-Herzegovina was still part of the SFRY, wasn't it?

A. Yes. I remember that very well. And the pull-out from Croatia and the five-cornered star that was replaced with the four S's.

Q. I'm not talking about the four letters. I'm just saying that the JNA was the only legal armed formation in those areas at that time. Is that right or not?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. In paragraph 3 -- 13, you say that the first problem started in ^{26166 BLANK PAGE 26167} March 1992 when you heard that at a distance of some 400 metres from your village automatic fire was being opened. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Before that there were no problems at all?

A. Very minor ones. Nothing really dangerous.

Q. And then when you heard that, you were patrolling as a TO unit. You were armed, and you had all the powers that we referred to to stop people, to check them out, to maintain public law and order; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Why didn't you intervene or at least try to find out who had opened fire?

A. How dared we go there? We had weapons, but we couldn't do anything with it. We would -- to get killed up there from Pavlovo Brdo from the Pavlo hill.

Q. So you didn't intervene?

A. We didn't dare.

Q. And did you inform anyone?

A. Yes. We informed Captain Nedjo.

Q. Was he in your village?

A. Yes.

Q. So when he came to visit your village, you informed him?

A. Captain Nedjo would come on a daily basis to see us. He would come in the morning, shall we say, to inquire what had happened. We would report to him. ²⁶¹⁶⁸

Q. Does that mean that you reported to him in writing?

A. This report was compiled by Nijaz. He was also a captain or something like that. He was an officer, and he would compile the report.

Q. So this Nijaz drafted a written report; is that right?

A. We kept record of events in a notebook as a patrol. Now, whether he was given this in writing, I couldn't tell you, but the two of them regularly met.

Q. Do you have any of those written reports?

A. No. I don't have anything.

Q. Very well. As I can see from your statement, you and the other Muslims from your village were armed with weapons of the Territorial Defence; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know of a single case that the Muslims without any cause opened fire? Did you report about that at all?

A. Well, first of all, even if people tried to do that, we would prevent it from happening.

Q. All right. You claim in paragraph 12 in your statement that, "On one occasion when a drunken Muslim was shooting in the air, we had to take his weapon away," and you reported about that; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. We took his weapon away and we handed it over to Captain Nedjo.

Q. You say that at that time you saw truckloads of reservists passing down the road through the village of Poraci, which belonged to Lisnja; is that right? ²⁶¹⁶⁹

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you say that reservists who were transported in these trucks opened fire at the houses in your village. Is that your statement?

A. Yes. The village of Poraci.

Q. So they were shooting at random there.

A. Yes, in passing. There is evidence of that which is quite visible. On the houses there are still scars, so to speak, but of course the windowpanes have been replaced.

Q. Tell me, you say that there was frequent random shooting, as you had put it, but were any villagers killed or injured due to that?

A. Not at that time.

Q. So they were only shooting the way this man whose rifle you had taken away was shooting; right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Were their weapons taken away too, the weapons they used to shoot around, as you had taken away the weapon of the person who had been shooting in the air?

A. Who'd take their weapons away, the reservists weapons. We did report that to Captain Nedjo too. However, the same thing was repeated time and again, this very same thing.

Q. But nobody got killed or injured.

A. No.

Q. All right. In the month of April, 1992, the captain asked you to return to machine-guns that you were issued with in 1991 as members of the TO; is that right? ²⁶¹⁷⁰

A. Yes.

Q. And as far as I can see in your statement, that's when you stopped wearing a uniform, the uniform you had as a reservist; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But these rifles, they didn't ask you for them?

A. No. They didn't ask for the machine-gun ammunition either.

Q. So you kept the guns and the ammunition?

A. Yes.

Q. And now in paragraph 17, you say that in the beginning of May 1992, a written order came to the local commune, that is to say to your village. A written order, you say. This order indicated that all persons with hunting rifles had to surrender them; is that right?

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Tell me, did this order arrive from the police or from the military authorities?

A. It arrived from the police authorities.

Q. So it was a police order; right?

A. Yes.

Q. The army which was coming to the end of its tenure in Bosnia-Herzegovina had nothing to do with this order; is that right?

A. I think that's right.

Q. Now you say that soon after that, your village was surrounded by the police and by members of the unit called the Wolves from Vucjak; is that right? Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes. ²⁶¹⁷¹

Q. When did this happen?

A. I cannot give you the dates. I already mentioned in my first statement that I cannot give any dates, but we were supposed to hand over these hunting weapons, and two or three -- we had two or three days to do that, and I had my brother-in-law's weapon and I handed it in.

Q. All right. So the police unit was there and the unit belonging to the Wolves from Vucjak. So again there were no members of the JNA there; is that right?

A. No, I didn't see any then.

Q. When did you first hear of this unit called the Wolves from Vucjak?

A. Sometime in 1991. That's when I heard of them. But at that time I wasn't really very much interested in that, and I did not move about very much.

Q. Had you ever heard of this certain Veljko Milankovic, the commander of that unit before that?

A. No, I did not know him personally. I did not hear of them.

Q. Did you didn't hear of him?

A. No.

Q. And who was in this unit the Wolves from Vucjak? Was that your local population from there?

A. It wasn't our local population there. There wasn't anyone from Lisnja or from the Muslim villages. I heard of this one man, Jansa, when all this happened in Lisnja. He was a Slovenian.

Q. And what about the rest? Where were they from? ²⁶¹⁷²

A. I heard that they were from Ilova and places like that. Neighbours, from neighbouring villages.

Q. Oh, from neighbouring villages.

A. Yes.

Q. And you say that then when they surrounded you, you were told that you had to hand over all weapons; is that right?

A. At that time, it was hunting weapons that had to be handed in.

Q. So hunting guns had to be handed over by all weapons, whereas these members of the TO, including yourself, all still had normal TO weapons, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. So when this request was made to hand over these weapons, was -- did it also refer to your weapons, the ones that you had as the TO when you were surrounded?

A. No.

Q. Now let me not use this word "operation," but when this took place, when the village was surrounded, et cetera, was anybody killed?

A. No.

Q. All right. In paragraph 18, you say at that time about 100 sniper rifles were surrendered as well as a very large number of hunting rifles. Is that right? Is that the figure that you're referring to?

A. Yes. Because it was a big village and very rich. People were abroad for the most part and, of course, there were quite a few hunters there.

Q. So over 100 sniper rifles and a very large number of hunting ²⁶¹⁷³ rifles in your village, and all of that because they were hunters?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. In paragraph 19, you claim that you, together with about 25 men from your village, went to the Prnjavor police station to turn in weapons and that you saw three trucks full of soldiers from Knin there. That's what you said. They were called Knindzas; is that right?

A. First of all, it's not Prijedor, it's Prnjavor. And secondly, it is true that I did go there and that I saw these men from Knin.

Q. All right. You went to Prnjavor, not Prijedor. And you saw three trucks full of soldiers?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they moving about or were they sitting in these trucks?

A. They were by the police station. They were outside. Some were also on the truck and some were standing by the truck.

Q. You say that they were swearing at you, asking why you were surrendering weapons. Is that what they asked you?

A. Yes.

Q. I find it incredible that they asked you that.

A. It's not that they asked this directly. They were just saying, "Why did you hand over your weapons?" They said that it was a pity that we handed them over, that they should kill us.

Q. Oh, so that's why they asked you. All right. As far as I understand this, they were reprimanding you for having handed over your weapons.

So you invented this, Mr. 1610. ²⁶¹⁷⁴

A. This is not correct.

Q. All right. In the same paragraph, number 19, you say quite literally: "They wore camouflage uniforms. I noticed that they had Red Berets. On their sleeves they had some kind of patch. As far as I can remember, the patch read something like SAO Krajina. I did not know what this meant." Is that what you stated?

A. Yes.

Q. So you noticed, as far as you could remember, as you put it yourself, that there was something like "SAO Krajina" written on these patches.

A. Yes, because we did not dare look at them directly. We were afraid. Of course they were saying all sorts of things to us, and I managed to catch a glimpse of these yellow letters that said "SAO Krajina."

Q. Are you sure that that's what it said because you say here as if it said -- so you did see some things and you didn't see other things. What did you actually see?

A. I saw that "SAO Krajina" was written there.

Q. You saw that it was written there. And how come you know that they were from Knin? Did somebody tell you that or is this your assumption? Is that what you assumed then?

A. I didn't assume it. As we were entering the police station bringing in our weapons, there were two young men there from Knin, and they were also swearing at us, cursing our Muslim mothers when we were entering this one room where weapons were supposed to be handed over. I ²⁶¹⁷⁵ [redacted].

Q. I'm just asking you how come you knew that they were from Knin. Did they say that?

A. When they were saying that -- I mean, these two men were sort of wounded a bit, injured. So that is how they were registered there. That's what I heard.

Q. Where did they register them?

A. At the police station in Prnjavor.

Q. And that's where you heard that they were from Knin?

A. Yes, as I was entering this place.

Q. All right. And you received certificates for each and every weapon that you handed over; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Already in paragraph 21, you say that three or four days later, you received information from the SDA representative that any hidden weapons had to be handed over and that the military would come to collect them.

A. Yes.

Q. When you say "the military," what does that mean? You are talking about the army of Republika Srpska; right?

A. For as long as we wore the five-pointed star, we always thought that it was the army, but the army was there.

Q. However, these two groups of Muslims, there were about 30 of them, they did not return any weapons; right?

A. No, it wasn't that they didn't return any weapons. They came and ²⁶¹⁷⁶ they collected these weapons without any ammunition, without any clips, nothing.

Q. All right. As far as I can see here, at one point in time they disarmed the members of the army of Republika Srpska and they seized the weapons that had already been surrendered, and they went to the hill called Vinogradije from there; is that right?

A. Well, Captain Nedjo also wore a five-pointed star, and it was only natural; we still thought it was the Yugoslav army. And it is true they went towards Vinogradije.

Q. All right. So these two groups of Muslims, they disarmed their weapons and they went with their weapons to Vinogradije; is that right?

A. It's not that they had any big weapons or something. They took these weapons that the people had handed over. They took that and went to Vinogradije.

Q. How many of them were there?

A. Say about 30 in two groups. I didn't really count them.

Q. They were all Muslims? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And now you say that the attack on the village of Lisnja started this same day around 1600 hours. However, previously, there was an announcement by megaphone stating that all inhabitants had to leave the village and gather at the sawmill, as you had put it; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And it was said then that those who did not go to the sawmill would be considered enemies and therefore would be attacked; is that ²⁶¹⁷⁷ right? Is that what was said specifically?

A. Yes, that's what was said.

Q. Was this a warning? These two groups of Muslims that had collected the weapons and went to the hill called Vinogradije, was this a warning to the civilian population to seek shelter in case there was a conflict?

A. I think so.

Q. All right. You say that in the area by the sawmill there were also some JNA officers in olive-green/grey uniforms that you did not know, and this Slovenian Jansa, as you had put it, who still works in the MUP in Prnjavor nowadays. Is that what you stated?

A. When I made this statement, he worked there then. I don't know about now, but at that time he did.

Q. All right. It doesn't matter that he's a Slovenian. He is a citizen from that area, because you say that he worked as a policeman in Prnjavor.

A. He did not work as a policeman before the war

Q. Was he in this unit called Wolves from Vucjak?

A. Yes.

Q. So he was not a member of the army of Republika Srpska; is that right? Was that a paramilitary formation or what was this unit, the Wolves from Vucjak?

A. It was sort of a paramilitary formation, but they worked in concert, in agreement with the JNA.

Q. When did the attack on Lisnja take place, on which date? ²⁶¹⁷⁸

A. I've already said that I do not know exact dates. Perhaps you can ask me something else and I'll answer your questions, but I cannot give you exact dates. I don't know.

Q. You talk about the Wolves from Vucjak and so on and so forth. Is it correct that you did not see any JNA officers at all but only members of that particular formation?

A. Yes, I did see an officer. I saw one.

Q. You wore the same type of uniform?

A. I didn't have a uniform at that time.

Q. Well, not then, but before that you did, you had the same type of uniform. That's right, isn't it?

A. It was the same colour, yes.

Q. Very well. Let me just take a look at something you said in your statement.

You say in paragraph 25 that there was a Slovene there by the name of Jansa and he was Milankovic's deputy. I recently heard that he was working in the MUP in Prnjavor. I heard Milankovic asking the JNA officers if they would bring a multiple rocket launcher to the hill called Pavlovo Brdo.

Q. Now, tell me, a moment ago you said you'd never heard of Milankovic, and now you keep referring to him as being the commander of the Wolves from Vucjak. So let me ask you this. When did you hear about the unit and what did you know about it?

A. Immediately before the attack on Lisnja took place, a cousin of mine said, "Milankovic is here." I didn't know him personally, of course, ^{26179 BLANK PAGE 26180} but I heard Jansa talking - I was 10 metres away - Jansa talking to the officers and asking them to bring in a multiple rocket launcher.

Q. Now, let's look at this: You said that you made a previous statement, and I'm quoting. You -- "He addressed the officer. I don't know who he was." That's what you say quite clearly. "I do not know who he was. I do not know his name either. But at any rate, he was an officer." Is that the statement you made?

A. Yes, that's what I said.

Q. And then you were asked on this previous occasion the following question, whether you thought that it was an officer belonging to the army of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes. Isn't that right, Mr. 1610?

A. I did give that answer, because at that time I considered that it was all the Serbian army, as it was indeed.

Q. So on that occasion, you said that this person was an officer of the army of Republika Srpska. Tell me now this: Are you changing about these officers, changing them around depending on the purpose you're giving your statement for? On the one hand, you speak about the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. On this occasion, when directly asked whether it was an officer of the army of Republika Srpska, you said yes. Before that, you say you don't know who he was, you don't know his name, but he was an officer. Then you were asked whether he was an officer of the army of Republika Srpska, and your answer was yes.

A. Yes, that is what I said. I'm not saying I didn't.

Q. Yes, but then you spoke of him as being a JNA officer as well.

A. I did say that because when all this was happening to us in Lisnja ²⁶¹⁸¹ on that particular day, it was the Serb army, as far as I was concerned, so that's what I said. But he was wearing a JNA uniform and he had the five-pointed star.

Q. The same one that you had had up until then?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. And in paragraph 27, you mention a man -- a name Tito Potok. Tell me, who was that man; a Slovene, a Croat, a Serb? Who was he, this Tito Potok?

A. Tito Potok was a Serb.

Q. And then you say that he asked you to start up the engines of a vehicle and other things. What's that got to do with these events? I'm not quite clear on what you're referring to, a hotwire.

A. When we reached the mill, sawmill, he asked us to ignite the engine, and I didn't know how to do that using a hotwire. And then later on I said I'd go and find somebody who would be able to start up the engine that way. I wasn't able to find anyone, so I went to hide among the women and children.

Q. All right. So you fled. You escaped and hid with the -- among the women and children. But what has this got to do with starting up an engine with these hot wires? What's that got to the do with the events we're discussing? I'm not clear on that. Why do you bring that up at all in the context of these events?

A. Well, they were going to take the car, seize it, because the car belonged to a man called Adel Pekic [phoen].

Q. So you didn't say that in your statement. All you said was that ²⁶¹⁸² you were asked to start up the engine using a hot wire, and straight away you fled and hid among the women and children.

A. Well, not straight away, several minutes later.

Q. All right. Several minutes later. And in the meantime the Muslims who didn't want to hand over their weapons, did appear and surrendered their weapons? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me now, did anybody beat them, mistreat them, abuse them in any way once they did appear, once they appeared?

A. Well, when they were coming down from the Lisnja road, down the Lisnja road, two men were abused. They were hit with rifle butts. And then about 30 of them were taken off in trucks to Prnjavor.

Q. Well, why didn't you say that in your statement, that they were mistreated and beaten, these people? Why didn't you say that? Because it would appear from this statement that nobody beat or mistreated anybody.

A. Well, I said that they were beaten.

Q. Now, according to you, once they had surrendered their weapons, this man Milankovic gave orders that the village be shelled. Is that what you're claiming?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, does that mean then that there was an armed unit that still remained in the village?

A. No. There was no unit remaining in the village. Only the people working in the fields and didn't know what was happening remained, because they were far away from their villages at that time. So they might have ²⁶¹⁸³ stayed on, and the people who were sick and elderly.

Q. Then you go on to say that the wolves from Vucjak stormed the village and set fire to 76 houses. Is that what you claim?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Then you go on to say that this man who asked you to start the engine of that car bragged and said that he had killed three men whom you yourself buried later on in the village of Konjuhovci. So what is the truth? What is correct here?

A. What is correct is that he told us in the morning that he had indeed killed three men and that he said he would kill some more people too.

Q. And did you bury anybody yourself?

A. I did dig graves, and then a young Serb guy told us to get lost, that it would be better if we got lost.

Q. So you didn't actually bury anybody yourself.

A. I dug the grave and then I left.

Q. Did you see a single man who had actually been killed there?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. So who was that man? Go on, tell me what person you saw.

A. There was Bajis.

Q. So you saw this one man who had been killed.

A. I saw three corpses being brought in in the car.

Q. What were these people's names?

A. There was Avdija and Bajis Halilic [as interpreted], and this young person of 17, young man of 17. ²⁶¹⁸⁴

Q. Do you know how they were killed, how they lost their lives? Do you know anything about that?

A. No, I don't know anything about that, but I do know that they were killed, and I do know that there was a cross drawn on their bodies.

Q. Tell me, were they killed during the fighting that took place there or were they executed by someone? Which is it?

A. Well, there wasn't any fighting going on there. Not a single bullet was fired. There was no fighting, no combat.

Q. And where did these people actually come from?

A. They were from Porac.

Q. So this village that you're mentioning now, was there any fighting there, any clash of any kind or not?

A. No, there wasn't a clash of any kind.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So there was no fighting, no conflict in your locality; is that right?

A. As far as my village is concerned, nobody shot a single bullet.

Q. I'm not talking about your village of Lisnja, I'm talking about the area itself, the whole area. Was there any fighting there? How did these men come to be killed?

A. I don't know how they were killed. All I do know is that their bodies were found and that they had to be buried in the morning.

Q. All right. So you don't know how they were in fact killed. Right. Now, after this attack, you were allegedly shut up in a footwear ²⁶¹⁸⁵ factory for 35 days, in a shoe factory. That's what you claim.

A. Forty-five days in actual fact.

Q. All right, 45 days. And where is that shoe factory?

A. In Prnjavor

Q. And who held you prisoner there?

A. There was the reserve police force.

Q. I see, the reserve police force from Prnjavor. Did they beat you, did they mistreat you in any way while you were being held there?

A. Well, yes. The weekends were best, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. That's when they would attack us, beat us when they would come back from their shifts, but they didn't beat me because I fled. There were 387 of us in total.

Q. But you say nobody beat you personally?

A. Not me personally.

Q. Was anybody killed?

A. Alija Dzinic was there. He was all beaten up. His head was beaten in.

Q. So of those 300 of you -- how many did you say?

A. Three hundred and eighty-seven I said.

Q. Right, 387. Was anybody killed?

A. No.

Q. Now, in paragraph 44, you state something that is very interesting, and I'm quoting you. "During that night when we were all rallied up to go to the sawmill, I heard that the soldiers had taken away three women to Suad Zukancic's house and that they raped her. Is that ²⁶¹⁸⁶ what you said, that you heard about that?

A. I said -- actually, the story that was going around was that they were raped. What it says in the statement is that that was not true, that she did this of her own will.

Q. But I will read the following sentence. "I believe that -- my opinion is that the women were not raped. They were having sex with the soldiers for money, and it's only when people figured out what they were doing that they stated that they had been raped." Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Well, do you know of any similar cases, others? That is to say, that they had sex for money and then later on said they had been raped.

A. Yes, that's what I heard.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, in paragraph 45, you go on to say that you did not know Veljko Milankovic before the war but that others told you who the man was.

A. Yes. On the day the attack on Lisnja took place.

Q. All right. Now, this next bit does not relate to the fact that you had any knowledge of him having the reputation of a criminal and having been prosecuted and things like that. Did you know anything about that or not?

A. No, I didn't know anything about that, but I did hear about it later on, that he was found guilty for some offences. Perhaps -- I heard about that perhaps a year later.

Q. Yes, but you heard about it before you made this statement; is that correct? ²⁶¹⁸⁷

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Well, why, then, didn't you mention that reputation of his?

A. Well, I didn't know that it was necessary for me to do so, whether I should speak about that or not.

Q. Well, you claim that you didn't know who he was, and yet before you made your statement you learnt that he was in fact a criminal, but you didn't consider it necessary to say that in your statement; is that it?

A. Yes, that's it.

Q. But in paragraph 47, you also claim and state that you knew that this same man, Milankovic, after the public security station in Prnjavor had been taken over, was arrested and taken to Banja Luka; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So who arrested him?

A. The specials from Sarajevo, special forces from Sarajevo arrested him.

Q. So the police actually arrested him, the regular police; is that right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And the others that took part in this, what happened to them? Did the authorities react to the unlawful conduct of any of these men from the paramilitary formation except for him, for the boss himself? If they arrested their boss and chief, I assume that they should have arrested the others too. What happened to the others? What do you know about that?

A. Well, nothing was heard later on until he was released, and I didn't know about this paramilitary unit. ²⁶¹⁸⁸

Q. And where were you yourself after that? Where did you go to afterwards?

A. I was in the village of Lisnja. This was before the events that happened came to pass.

Q. All right. And when you were released, how long were you there you said? Forty --

A. Forty-five days.

Q. All right. So you were there incarcerated for 45 days. Where were you later, afterwards?

A. We were released later on to Lisnja and I had a work obligation to perform.

Q. So all of you were released after that and went on with your lives normally in your village; is that right?

A. Yes, later on, but not all of us. Some of us stayed behind. Others were transferred to Tunjica in Banja Luka. Because my uncle was there and he died a year later. And we had a work obligation to perform later on. That we were free, we were not free; they would come in in the evenings to mistreat us, abuse us.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sometimes I slept at home. Sometimes I slept in my shed. It was difficult to know where to sleep or when they would turn up.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, did they take anyone away from your village or kill anybody?

A. Well, somebody from the neighbouring village came by, a man named ²⁶¹⁸⁹ Serbes, asking for money, cars. He would seize cars. And another formation would turn up and they confiscated our tractors and agricultural machinery.

Q. So this man came and asked you for money, did he, and he stole vehicles? He was a criminal, then, wasn't he?

A. Well, he was in the army. Now, who he actually was, I can't say, whether he was a criminal or not, but he was there.

Q. Did you know him?

A. I didn't know him myself personally, but it's in the neighbouring village. So a neighbour of mine told me that that's that man. And I have some land there myself, but I didn't see him myself.

Q. What was his name?

A. Serbes was what they called him.

Q. Serbes. What kind of a name is that?

A. Now, whether that was his nickname or not I don't know, but that's what they called him.

Q. So apart from this criminal who came, did anybody else come to mistreat the inhabitants of the village?

A. Well, yes, they did. For example, there was all sorts of units and formations coming by, and we'd always have to try and escape and flee. We had no electricity, nothing else, and as soon as it grew dark, you would try and seek shelter somewhere and hide.

Q. All right. But throughout that time were any of the inhabitants of the village killed?

A. Not at that time, but later on, yes, they were. ²⁶¹⁹⁰

Q. When did -- was somebody killed later on?

A. Well, I left, but I think it was in 1993. That's what I heard. A man --

Q. All right, but you have no personal knowledge of that after that period of time. You weren't there; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's only one question that needs some more clarification, and it has to do with the point in time when members of the Territorial Defence in those days, as the witness has explained, were given weapons. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that what happened was that members of the Territorial Defence in your area, that is, 48 men of which only five were Serbs received weapons; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you were interviewed in October 2001, you said literally -- I don't know whether you have the statement in front of you, but do you remember saying at the time, and I quote: "Since I was a member of the Territorial Defence, I had a uniform at home." This was a clear statement by you; is that right?

A. When we were issued weapons, we also were issued uniforms, I mean coats.

Q. That's why I'm asking you. You were quite emphatic here. You ²⁶¹⁹¹ said that you had a uniform at home. And then you added that the TO received two machine-guns on that day, that a TO truck came, distributed weapons and machine-guns. Everyone who was issued a M-48 received 30 bullets. Nowhere did you mention what you said today, that you didn't have a uniform.

Wasn't it the rule for all people who were in reserve to have uniforms at home? Should the need arise, they would have it at hand, as you actually stated in October 2001.

A. I didn't have that uniform because I was in Derventa. I belonged to a company of recoilless cannon, and I returned my uniform. I was in Germany. Then later on when these people who needed to be selected, who were serious, who didn't drink and so on, they were chosen to be given uniforms and weapons.

Q. But that is your explanation now. Earlier on, your statement was quite clear. Does that mean that people with officer ranks were given uniforms on that day with officer's insignia or did they have those uniforms at home already?

A. I can't tell you about the others. I don't know.

Q. Just one more point. You also said earlier on quite clearly that you kept the M-48 rifles and that you were never asked to surrender the TO rifles, M-48s.

A. Yes, until that day when Lisnja was attacked.

Q. But you said that you never returned those rifles.

A. No, I didn't say that we never returned them. But when Veljko Milankovic was cursing God and saying why hadn't the weapons been ^{26192 BLANK PAGE 26193} collected when he saw the weapons.

Q. This is my last question. I am again drawing your attention to what you said quite clearly in your statement on page 4, third paragraph. "They never asked us to hand in M-48 rifles of the Territorial Defence." Is that right or not?

A. What I meant was that they didn't ask us to hand in the weapons until that event.

Q. But you said that you handed in 100 snipers but that these rifles were never handed in.

A. I don't remember saying that, that the rifles were never returned.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to the portion of your testimony with respect to you testifying that you heard Milankovic ask a JNA officer to move some weaponry, artillery, I believe, up to a hill called Pavlovo Brdo. Now, Mr. Milosevic has suggested that or has actually put to you that you have changed the identity of that officer to suit the different purpose or different purposes. I'm going to ask that you look at page 5 of your statement, and I have put a yellow note to the precise portion that I would like you to review. After you find the sentence in your statement which goes to this very matter, could I ask you to read it for the Chamber.

A. "I heard that radio MUP --" no. "I heard that he was working in the MUP." Correction.

Q. I believe it's the next sentence. ²⁶¹⁹⁴

A. "I heard Milankovic asking a JNA officer if they would bring a multiple-rocket launcher to the Pavlovo Brdo. They agreed and they installed on that hill a recoilless gun. From where I stood, I could see a multiple-rocket launcher and the recoilless gun on the hill."

Q. Thank you.

MR. GROOME: No further questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question, the question that I put to the witness, didn't have to do with the actions but, rather, the identity of the individual. In the statement, the witness speaks of a JNA officer, whereas earlier on he said, and I quoted: "He addressed an officer. I don't know who he was. I don't know his name, but he was an officer." And then in answer to a direct question from whoever was asking the questions, in answer to a question whether he believes that he was an officer of Republika Srpska, he answered yes. You can find this in earlier statements. That was the point of my question.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1610, that concludes your evidence for now, but could you please be available tomorrow, we must ask you because of this mistake which is nothing, of course, to do with you, but it is necessary that you stay, if you would, overnight, and if necessary, we will ask you to come back tomorrow morning. We will be able to fit you in sometime tomorrow morning if there are any additional questions. Mr. Milosevic, will you indicate tomorrow morning whether there are any additional questions for the witness. Perhaps you would have a look at that overnight.

Yes. We will put down the blinds.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I will be taking the next witness. Before he comes in, there's something I'd like to raise in private session, if I may. ²⁶¹⁹⁷

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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[Open session]

MS. PACK: Your Honour, again while we're waiting for the witness to come in, could I ask for an exhibit number to be assigned to the transcript of prior testimony and related exhibits in the binder in front of you at tabs 1 to 5.

THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 533.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: MUSTAFA RAMIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: And perhaps the remaining blinds could be put up. Yes, Ms. Pack.

Examined by Ms. Pack:

Q. Witness, will you give the Court, please, your name.

A. My name is Mustafa Ramic.

Q. Mr. Ramic, did you testify in previous proceedings before this Tribunal in September of 1999?

A. Yes, I did. ²⁶¹⁹⁹

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'll read a summary of that earlier testimony.

This witness became mayor of Brcko in the 1990 elections. He was heavily involved in the formation of the SDA in Brcko. The witness and his brother attended the first official meeting of the SDA in Sarajevo in 1990 and became party members.

The witness explains in his earlier testimony that the SDA came in second in the 1990 elections with 23 seats. The SDP, or Communist Party, won the majority of seats in the municipal parliament. They were a mixed group, that is, there were Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats amongst them. After the election, there was a coalition set up by the SDA, HDZ and SDS. The Executive Council comprised three SDA, three HDZ, and three SDS members. The witness describes the various posts in the municipal government occupied on a parity basis by Serbs, Muslims, and Croats. The highest ranking position was occupied by the witness; he was president. Lasting for several months before the war broke out, the army was distributing weapons among the Serb population in villages in Brcko municipality. For about a month or two before the war, there were 300 or even 400 men in the town of Brcko who were not from the area. The witness telephoned the JNA commander repeatedly about what was happening. He also went to see him to ask why tanks were digging in and groups with machine-guns deployed around the town. It was particularly odd that most of these weapons were aimed at the town. The JNA commander would not discuss it. He would say from time to time that these activities were being conducted also as a defence against incursion of ²⁶²⁰⁰ some foreign forces from Croatia. The witness proposed a joint unit made up of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, but this was refused. The SDS wanted to partition the town. This was debated at a televised parliamentary session on the 17th of April, 1992. The SDA's position was that this was unacceptable. All the parties took part in the debate, and the conclusion was to allow the SDS to take out a part of the town and a part of the municipality and call it the Serb municipality of Brcko. Before this, in early April, the SDS had already proclaimed the Serb municipality of Brcko.

By the 1st of May, 1992, when the bridges in Brcko were destroyed, there was not a single bridge across which you could go to Croatia. Two bridges were blown up in Brcko, the railway bridge and the bridge for vehicles and pedestrians. The railway bridge was also blown up within three minutes of the pedestrian/vehicle bridge. The blowing up of the bridges caused panic in the town.

The witness had ordered that the pedestrian/vehicle bridge be protected. A group of policemen had been set up as a checkpoint there. They told the witness later that the people who had blown up the bridge were very well prepared, that they numbered 20, and that they were from Serbia. They had taken over the checkpoint. They waited until morning to activate the explosives. About 150 people were on the bridge at the time. They were all Bosniaks.

After the bridges were blown up, the witness goes on to say in his earlier testimony that he went to a meeting with the commander of the garrison in Brcko at the barracks. The commander said that he would bring ²⁶²⁰¹ the army in to take control of all the more important points in town. He said that he would agree not to bring the army in if the witness went on television and succeeded in calming the people down. The witness agreed to go on television.

During the broadcast, people telephoned in and said that the army was already entering town. At one point, people phoned up from the local community of the 4th of July and said: "The army is at present shooting at us." The witness asked the deputy commander of the garrison, who was with him, what this meant, given that the army had agreed not to enter town. The programme was interrupted and the witness left the television studio. He thought that if he had stayed, they would probably have killed him.

The witness went ultimately to Gornji Rahic, which was in free Brcko. He spent most of his time there during the war. When the shooting started and the attack was launched by the JNA and paramilitary units, he organised the defence of the rest of the town. They succeeded in controlling part of the town and the southern reaches. The witness identifies by name prominent Bosniaks from Brcko or prominent members of the SDA who were killed on the first day of the conflict. He gives evidence about SDA membership and party structures in Brcko and supporters and members of the SDA who were killed. He identifies, by reference to charts, the sections of town, Muslim majority areas, which were occupied on the 1st of May, 1992.

JUDGE MAY: I think that's a convenient moment. We will adjourn now. ²⁶²⁰² Mr. Ramic, we're just going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you remember during this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

Yes. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I have a couple of supplemental questions for the witness.

JUDGE MAY: Have you finished with the -- your summary?

MS. PACK: I have.

JUDGE MAY: You have. You don't want to deal with the rest of it. Very well. Yes.

MS. PACK:

Q. Mr. Ramic, the JNA garrison commander to whom I referred in the summary, what was his name?

A. His name was Pavle Milinkovic.

Q. Do you know his rank?

A. He was a lieutenant colonel of the Yugoslav army.

Q. Mr. Ramic, I read out in the summary a summary of your broadcast at the television station in Brcko. You were accompanied by whom during that broadcast?

A. It was Captain Momcilo Petrovic, assistant commander for security matters. ²⁶²⁰³

Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramic.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, that's the only supplemental matters I wanted to deal with.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramic, when the conflict broke out in the municipality of Brcko, you were mayor at the time; right?

A. I was president of the municipality of Brcko.

Q. I see. President of the municipality of Brcko. So at the time when the conflict broke out, you were the most important political figure in the municipality of Brcko?

A. Yes.

Q. A short while ago, when the summary was being presented, it was explained that the majority vote in Brcko was won by the League of Communists; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you, the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ joined up to form a coalition in order to topple them; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And after that, you had a conflict amongst you?

A. No, that's not the way it was.

Q. As you say on page 2 of your statement, in May 1990, at a meeting of the Party of Democratic Action in Sarajevo when the statute was adopted, together with your brother Ibrahim, you became an official of the SDA. Is that right? ²⁶²⁰⁴

A. Actually, after this meeting, we were in the group of initiators that established the SDA in Brcko.

Q. So you are one of the founders of the SDA in Brcko?

A. Yes.

Q. At the same time you were a member of the Main Board of the party?

A. Yes, I was. I mean, I became one later.

Q. The Main Board for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. Yes, but that's what I became later.

Q. When was that?

A. Later, at the congress, which was in the month of September, as far as I can remember, of 1990.

Q. The same year?

A. The same year, yes.

Q. That's the first time when the Main Board was elected; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you were actually a member of this first Main Board of the Party of Democratic Action that was elected?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. Bearing in mind all these positions you held, I assume that everything that happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, notably in Brcko, is something that you are quite familiar with.

A. Well, I think so, yes.

Q. And your brother Ibrahim Ramic, at the beginning of the conflict when you were president of the municipality, he was president of your party in Brcko; is that right? ^{26205 BLANK PAGE 26206}

A. Yes.

Q. And that's when the HDZ was constituted in Brcko and its president was Mijo Anic.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it correct that the head of public security in Brcko, I mean the police at the time of the outbreak of the conflict, was Stjepan Filipovic?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. What was his ethnicity?

A. Croat.

Q. And the commander of the police was Zlatko Jacarevic, a Muslim; is that right?

A. Well, he was one of the persons who were in top positions at the SUP at the time.

Q. Yes. All right. So his deputy was Ivan Krndelj; right?

A. I don't think he had a deputy, but Ivan Krndelj was, I think, one of the ten or so - how should I put this? - top people of the SUP, yes.

Q. And Suvalija Tanic, also a Muslim, he was head of the crime investigation service in Brcko; is that right?

A. Yes. He was the chief of all the inspectors, yes.

Q. In your statement, you say that two or three months before the outbreak of the conflict in Brcko, members -- the Serb members of the Territorial Defence erected barricades and checkpoints around town and on ²⁶²⁰⁷ the main roads that led into town and out of town; is that right?

A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. That was done by the army. It was the army that set up the checkpoints, the barricades, on all approaches to town and around town. That's what the army did.

Q. This is what you say. I'm quoting your statement now. This is the last paragraph on page 5. "In addition to that, perhaps two or three months before the bridges were blown up, the Serb members of the Territorial Defence would erect roadblocks or checkpoints around the town and on the main roads leading out of town and in the Serb areas of town." So I've just quoted your own statement. I just wanted you to confirm that for me.

A. Actually, I have to give a clarification. There wasn't a visible separate organisation called the Serb Territorial Defence. There was the Yugoslav army, and within it was this -- let's call it the Serb Territorial Defence if that's what you wish to call them, but there were also some other paramilitary formations. However, at any rate, everything was under the command and organisational responsibility and control of the Yugoslav army.

Q. At that time, as I know too, throughout Yugoslavia there was no such thing as a Serb Territorial Defence, but you say Serb Territorial Defence, that they erected roadblocks. Why did you put it that way then in your statement? Why is that what you said?

A. Well, let me tell you, perhaps I did put it that way, but the meaning of it is what I explained just now.

Q. If that's the meaning -- ²⁶²⁰⁸

MS. PACK: Your Honour, perhaps the witness might be given a copy of the statement if there's going to be continued questioning on that paragraph.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Refer the witness to that paragraph, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Here it is, Mr. Ramic. It's the last paragraph on page 5 where it says: "In addition to this, maybe two or three months before the bridges were blown up, the Serb members of the TO would erect roadblocks or checkpoints around the town and on the main roads leading out of the town and in the Serb areas of town."

A. Well, now that I read this, I see that I meant something completely different. When I say members of the Territorial Defence, until that point in time there was a single Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So Serb members from this Territorial Defence did that together with the military, with the army. I didn't want to say the Serb Territorial Defence.

Q. All right. You also say that the JNA, just before the war, armed the Serb population in the surrounding villages. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But as you say yourself on page 6, because you are testifying on the basis of your written statement, in paragraph 5 you suggested that a multi-ethnic unit should be formed by way of a compromise in order to patrol the town and the municipality of Brcko.

A. Yes. I can give an explanation in this respect with the ²⁶²⁰⁹ indulgence of the Honourable Court. This is what it is all about: Since it was quite obvious that the Yugoslav army together with the mentioned different paramilitary organisations that were ethnic Serbs only had control over all the entrances into town and all other communication routes that could have affected possible war developments. When I asked Colonel Milinkovic -- Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic to explain what he wanted to achieve through this and what he was doing, then he explained, but I mean several times he did not want to give any explanations, but once he said that they did this because there was a possible danger of an attack. And I asked what kind of attack, and he said an attack from Croatia by the Ustashas. I'm paraphrasing now.

Since of course this was not correct, and since in a way he just wanted to disguise his own activities, I suggested to him let's do the following thing, let us defend the town with a multi-ethnic unit consisting of Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Let us establish this kind of unit.

Q. Tell me, Mr. Ramic, wasn't the JNA such an armed force that consisted of all ethnic groups, at least at that time?

A. Formally it was before, and I used to be a member of that kind of JNA. But on the very eve of the war, it had turned into a purely ethnic Serb military organisation. That's the way we can put it.

Q. Tell me, please, as a consequence of all of that, you say that members of the Bosniak and Croat people started leaving town. I would like to draw your attention to page 7, paragraph 3. You say: "Members of the Bosniak and Croat communities started leaving town because they were ²⁶²¹⁰ so worried that war would come. I should add that large numbers of Serbs had left certain areas of town in mid-April. This was seen as further evidence that the Serbs were preparing for war." Now, please, Mr. Ramic, I quoted the entire third paragraph to you. You say that the inhabitants there, the Bosniaks and the Croats, were leaving town. And that this is because they were so worried that a war would break out. And you say that the Serb inhabitants were doing the same thing, but you understand that as further evidence that the Serbs were preparing for war.

Now, please explain this to me. When the Bosniaks and Croats are leaving, that doesn't mean that they are preparing for war. And when Serbs are leaving, that is further evidence that they are preparing for war.

How is it that you interpret the same thing in different ways in the case of different ethnic groups?

A. What you quoted just now is perhaps not a very fortunate wording. Actually, it was this way: For a while, it was noticed that Serbs, ethnic Serbs, were leaving town. It would happen that overnight or, rather, the next day we would realise that certain people were no longer there, that they had left. This went on for a while, perhaps for about a month. And it was noticeable. It's not on my part or on part of the other officials in the municipality at the time, but all citizens noticed this and people started talking about this, why was it that members of the Serb ethnic group, the citizens of Brcko, were leaving town. Bearing in mind what was going on in time in the broader region and even closer to Brcko, meaning ²⁶²¹¹ Bijeljina, Zvornik, Bosanski Samac, and many other things, bearing in mind again that, before that, the area of Croatia was already engulfed by war, so citizens who were ethnic Serbs obviously had an inkling that something bad would happen. People talked about it in town. It wasn't a political instruction or a pamphlet or I don't know what. Quite simply, the people came to that conclusion on their own. So it was at their own initiative that Bosniaks and Croats slowly started withdrawing their own family members from town. That is what was going on.

Q. All right. Well, that's the point precisely. You say that both Muslims and Croats and Serbs leave town. However, when the Muslims and Croats leave, you say that this is because they were worried. And when the Serbs leave, you say that they were preparing for war. Does that seem logical to you, Mr. Ramic?

A. I think it is very logical. Please, Mr. Milosevic, there is the following explanation: From some parts of town, citizens of Serb ethnicity started leaving slowly for reasons unknown to us, and this had been going on for a while. At the same time, there was a war, and also there were war crimes that were being committed, and this news had reached Brcko, and everybody knew who was doing all of this. The reaction of the citizens belonging to other ethnic groups was that the same scenario was being prepared for Brcko too, so let us take care of our family members, and let us get out of here and move to a safer area. That was the gist of it.

Q. If that's the gist of it, then let's go on. Finally war started in the area of Brcko when, as you had put it, the bridges were blown. ²⁶²¹² That's what you say here.

A. Yes. Yes. That was the beginning of the war.

Q. Very well. Very well. Tell me first of all, you certainly know where the Mujkici local commune is in Brcko.

A. Yes.

Q. And is it correct that in the territory of this local commune at the gas station on the Brcko-Loncari road, before the conflict broke out, there was a privately-owned company there, Mibo, and the Brcko brick laying factory.

A. Yes. Yes. Mibo was not a privately-owned company though. It was a state-owned company, if we can put it that way, until then, and also the brick factory.

Q. There was DDPSC there; right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. So was that company. And is it correct that in 1991, very close to the station where the -- where vehicles were overhauled, there was a shooting range that was built there?

A. I don't know about that. Oh, just a minute. Perhaps you mean the shooting range of the association of marksmanship in Brcko. So this is a sports organisation that existed in Brcko. This was a shooting range, but real ammunition was not used there but the type that is used for sports events.

Q. All right. And is it correct that for months before the conflict broke out in Brcko it was precisely Muslims from this local commune of Mujkici, like from other parts of Brcko too, came to this shooting range ²⁶²¹³ in order to train in terms of shooting from automatic weapons and other weapons?

A. Oh, please. This has nothing to do with the truth. How could people have automatic weapons? Everybody would have noticed something like that in town, the police first and foremost. So in that case, the police would certainly react. I as mayor would have been informed about this certainly. I don't think this is correct at all.

Q. All right. So you say you don't think that's correct. Now, do you know who Veljko Mensur from Brcko is?

A. Yes, I do know him. He's a well-known sportsman. He was a boxer and karate player.

Q. And was he one of the instructors, the training instructors there?

A. No, that's not right.

Q. All right. Now I'm going to ask you to take a look at an Official Note by the public security station in Brcko, and it relates to knowledge about the activities of the SDA and HDZ in the local commune of Mujkici. And I'm just going to read out a short passage from that Official Note. It says: The DDPSC, which as you said a moment ago was set up in the Mujkici local commune behind the Brcko Loncari petrol pump and links Sefir Momimbo [phoen] and the Brcko bricklaying factory and is about 200 metres from the River Sava, within the frameworks of that company there is a new facility for vehicle repair with a large warehouse, and it is dug into the ground. We learnt from the employees that this warehouse or storage space was used by the Green Berets as a dormitory and a kitchen because we found large quantities of blankets and mattresses and beds as well as a ²⁶²¹⁴ fully-equipped kitchen. In addition to the warehouse, next to it there is a shooting range for which we have received information that particularly in recent months before the war conflicts broke out, was used for the training and shooting using infantry weapons. It was noted that large groups of Muslims from town and the Mujkici local commune would go there after 3.00 p.m. for shooting practice. And when asked what they were doing there by anybody, they would say that they were allegedly hunters doing some target practice.

JUDGE MAY: What is the date -- what is the date of the document that you're reading from?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date of this document here is the 7th of November, 1995. It is an Official Note by the security station in Brcko. And it has a stamp as well up at the top. The Municipal Secretariat, it says. I assume for the interior.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Brcko municipality. You can have it, have the witness take a look at it. And I referred to the second passage that is marked in marker ink here. So you can take a look at that, and I'd like to have this exhibited.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see it first.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I see a document of this kind and hear about it. That's the first thing I want to say.

Secondly, this document bears the stamp of the 7th of November, 1995, which means when the war was already over, so this is a retroactive, ²⁶²¹⁵ fabricated, quite obviously, document. Proof of this cannot be so, is the simple explanation. That that part of town, the part of town you're referring to, was of a multi-ethnic composition; there were Croats and Bosniaks and Serbs living there. Had anything like that actually taken place, quite certainly the organised parts of the authority, the police force or other inspector services or similar services and ultimately the army must have known about it, because the army did have its own patrols that patrolled the area, and they would have had to have come across something like that. So this is something that I see here for the first time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But it is an Official Note and it testifies about the activities prior to the beginning of the conflict.

A. But, Mr. Milosevic --

Q. It was drawn up later on --

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, after the war you can write whatever kind of official notes you want as to what happened and how it happened. I'm now going back to the time just prior to the war, the breaking out of the war, that is to say before the 1st of May, 1992. And I deny that there is any truth in what this document says. Had any of that been true, then not only I myself as the mayor of the town would have known about it but army would have known about it too and so would the police. And neither of these two institutions told me about anything of that kind prior to the war. ²⁶²¹⁶

JUDGE MAY: We'll give it a number.

THE REGISTRAR: D179.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I have here, Mr. Ramic, another Official Note, another document which was written somewhat earlier on, in October. That's when it was compiled. And it says: "In Mujkici before the war broke out on the 1st of May, 1992, a new war hospital was erected equipped with equipment and medicines from the city hospital. Ibrahim Ramic headed these activities, the president of the SDA party." That is to say, your brother. That's right, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And then Trumic Zijad, director of the county hospital; and Dr. Smail, an internist; the president of the SO of Brcko, Dr. Pitic Fadil, who was a surgeon; and others. And before that, in the local commune of Stari Rasadnik, a rally of citizens was convened with only one item on the agenda: How Muslims were to be -- were armed in the community. Some of the elderly people who were Muslims asked, Who are we going to fight against when we have the JNA as an army? And the presiding person stated on the occasion that the Muslims had to be organised and armed in their struggle against the Serbs. The rally was attended by Ilic Ziko, who wasn't invited, and after a short period of time, he left -- had to leave the meeting. And he in fact compiled this piece of information. Is that correct or not, sir?

A. No, none of that is true and correct. And what's your question, Mr. Milosevic? ²⁶²¹⁷

Q. As this is an Official Note by the police in Brcko, my question to you is as follows: Is this and in connection with the Rasadnik meeting and in connection with the hospital, and you yourself took part in the organisation of it before the conflict, that is to say in preparation for the conflict; is that correct or not?

A. Well, let's put it this way: As far as a meeting in the local commune of Stari Rasadnik is concerned, I can give you the following explanation: Before the war broke out on the 1st of May, certain things were happening and, amongst others, the SDS came to the fore, and this happened in the last ten days just before the war broke out. So ten days -- the last ten days of the month of April 1992. And they asked us to be allowed to form a Serb commune of Brcko. And let me say that that was a move which meant the town's division, and that in turn meant that some sort of boundaries were being erected which would further lead to rifts and tension and which would bring about a situation which could lead to a war conflict ultimately. And of course no normal person would be willing to accept anything of that kind. That's my first point. Now, Your Honours, might I explain the second point in order to answer the question just asked. My second point is this: We raised the question or, rather, it was a meeting with SDS representatives but also present were representatives of the municipal structures, not only us Bosniaks but others too, and they presented that request of theirs. I personally asked them how they envisaged dividing up the town, a town in which 90 per cent of the surface area contained a mixed population, an ethnically mixed population, and they said no, we have our vision about ^{26218 BLANK PAGE 26219} all this. And what we realised and understood was that the SDS, it would appear that the SDS wanted to have 70 per cent of the surface area of the town, including the town centre. Economically speaking, the industry and commerce to be included into that portion.

Now, of course that was quite unacceptable to one and all, because as I said a moment ago, this was not because this would mean the creation of a Serb municipality but that other things would ensue, the kind that I described a moment ago, delineation, demarcation, increased tension and a potential conflict.

Q. But that's not what you asked me.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I want to answer your question. I do wish to answer. So it was for this reason that I held a series of meetings with representatives of different kinds, persons in authority from the populous at large, of different ethnic groups, and in this -- I mean of the Bosniak and Croatian communities, and the conclusion drawn was this: If we wish to avoid a war conflict, we would have to accept their demands. Now, one of the meetings that was to follow linked to what I'm saying now was the meeting at Rasadnik or, rather, in Rasadnik, and the members of the Serb ethnic group was there at the meeting. So if we wanted to solve any inter-Bosniak questions, we wouldn't have invited him. But he did come. There was this Serb representative and others too, I believe. That meant that we did want to enter into a dialogue with the population to decide what was to be done. So we discussed whether we were going to accept their demands, and there was no talk of arming ourselves or where we would be fighting in future. So that's what I wanted to say ²⁶²²⁰ with respect to that meeting.

So that was a pure invention that the meeting discussed war and armaments and so on.

As far as the hospital in Maoca is concerned, I should like to say that that particular hospital was set up during the war, after the war had already broken out and after we had seen a large number of wounded persons during the fighting, during combat, or persons who had escaped from the centre of town. And as the hospital was in the town in this free area, we didn't have a hospital. It was quite logical for us to set up a sort of makeshift hospital. So that's what we chose. And it was a health centre set up in the local school.

Q. All right, Mr. Ramic. As my time limited, may I ask you to answer my questions and not elaborate. If you wish to say any additional things, you can ask permission to do so.

Is it true that the topic of the meeting held in the Stari Rasadnik local commune was the arming of Muslims and the fight against Serbs? Yes or no.

A. It is not true that the subject we discussed was armament, arming.

Q. All right. Now, I'd like to exhibit this. This is an Official Note by a state organ, and you will be able to assess what it says and the weight it carries?

JUDGE MAY: Just before we go any further, hand it to the witness first of all. Where does it come from, Mr. Milosevic? What is the state organ?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The state organ is the Ministry of ²⁶²²¹ the Interior, the public security station of Brcko.

JUDGE MAY: And the date?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 18th of October, 1995.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Show it to the witness, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it deals with the time before the war broke out on the 1st of May, 1992.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've seen this document. I haven't seen it previously, and I don't think that it is correct. I think it is completely fabricated.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we'll come to something that you won't be able to challenge.

JUDGE MAY: We'll give it the exhibit number next.

THE REGISTRAR: D180.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true and correct, sir --

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true and correct, Mr. Ramic, that in Maoca and Gornji Rahici as the leaders of the SDA you put up far before the conflict broke out the wartime Presidency? You accommodated them; is that correct?

A. No, that is not correct.

Q. And did you indeed set up a war Presidency in Brcko?

A. A war Presidency in Brcko did not exist. What existed was the Council for National Defence. And when I say that, Mr. Milosevic, I'm ²⁶²²² sure you know that this institution was the kind that existed at the time, a Council for National Defence. And at the head of it there was -- I was at the head of it as mayor, but we also had the command of the garrison, Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic. The commander of the Territorial Defence staff was also a member of the council, his name was Milisav Milutinovic. The president of the Executive Board of the Brcko municipality, his name was Pero Markovic, and so on. So the members reflected the multinational character. There were Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs on that body. That was what the situation was like until the war, until the conflict on the 1st of May, 1992.

Q. And when did you set up your War Presidency in fact?

A. Well, the War Presidency or Crisis Staff, that is one and the same thing, was formed by us after the war began, that is to say, after the 1st of May, after the events that took place in town when the aggressor occupied the town.

Q. All right. How far is it from Brcko to Brod?

A. Brod is on the --

Q. From Brcko to Bosanski Brod, I mean.

A. Oh, I see, Bosanski Brod. Well, I can't give you the exact distance but it is about 80 kilometres.

Q. And do you know of an event that took place when the forces of the Croatian army stormed the area, the village of Sijekovac and others, where a large number of Serbs were killed far before these events took place in Brcko itself?

A. I do know of the war conflicts and what took place but not that ²⁶²²³ particular event that you mentioned. At least I don't know the details.

Q. But what do you know about them? You know nothing?

A. I do know that there was fighting, and I do know that -- within the war and that the army, the Yugoslav army, took up its positions, and I also know that it was Croatia, I think, in that period that the Croatian Defence Council was set up and that it assumed its positions. Anyway, that there was a conflict in the area, that's what I know in general terms.

Q. Very well, is it true that the Serbs living in the area of the local commune of Stari Rasadnik several months before the conflict had to leave their homes?

A. No, that is not true. What would the reason be for them to do that?

Q. Very well. You say no, and we'll move on. Do you know who Suad Omer is? Have you heard of that man?

A. I can't remember that name.

Q. Let me read to you an official report on the 21st of November, 1991, dated the 21st of November, 1991. As you can see, several months before the outbreak of the conflict. And it says: "On the 21st of November, 1991, during regular duties at the Sanski Most checkpoint we stopped Zundo Omer, the son of Hasan, born in 1948, from Gunja who was driving from Gunja to Brcko a wheelbarrow. When we checked the goods, we found 10 automatic Kalashnikov rifles, 3 light machine guns, 20 hand grenades and 1.600 pistol rounds of 62 millimetre calibre." And then he goes on to explain who was supposed to meet him and ²⁶²²⁴ what he was supposed to do and it says that the report was compiled in the SUP premises by policemen Mirsad Omerovic, as you see a Muslim policeman, and Smailefendic Jasko when discovering the weapons at the Sanski Most checkpoint. And the note was written and signed by Mirsad Omerovic and Smailefendic Jasko, police station Brcko. It has its number 1338/91 and the date is the 21st of November, 1991.

So 10 automatic Kalashnikovs, 3 machine-guns, 20 hand grenades, 1.600 bullets. Are you aware of that? You were then already president of the municipality, were you?

A. I heard of that case.

Q. You can look at this and I wish to tender it into evidence as well. And I wish to draw your attention that it is dated November 1991. And the conflict, as you say, broke out on the 1st of May the following year?

A. Do you wish my comment? I heard about it --

Q. Well I asked you --

JUDGE MAY: One at a time. Let the witness look at the document. If you have any comments about it, then make them.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in this document it also says the following: "After the weapons passed by and talking to Suad Omer, we learned that he intended to carry the weapons across the bridge where he was due to meet with certain gentlemen from Zvornik for whom he had to carry the weapons across the bridge because they had paid 200 marks for this service. They were to have met him with a vehicle to take over the weapons." So that is the complete report. ²⁶²²⁵

JUDGE MAY: You must let him finish.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I am trying to say is that I am familiar with this event. The police in those days told me that this had happened in this way. However, this was not a system of arming the citizens of Brcko because, as you see, this was a case of smuggling of weapons.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But that was my next question. At the time, as president of the municipality, were you aware that those weapons were to have been handed to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic, and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik?

A. I can't remember all the details with accuracy, but what I do remember is that this was a classical case of arms smuggling, arms trafficking.

Q. So arms trafficking in Brcko. Were they Serbs?

A. No. From Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the time, I was not informed what was the final destination of those weapons, but clearly the man that you mention was just somebody who was carrying those weapons from Croatia to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. Correct.

Q. And who was supposed to give it to Blasko Lovric, Drago Franjic, and Marin Zecevic from Zvornik.

A. Yes. I believe that this document is authentic.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE MAY: It will be given a number.

THE REGISTRAR: D181. ²⁶²²⁶

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, as the town mayor, did you know that police officers Mirsad Omerovic and Sefik Hasanovic, on the 10th of November, 1991, the 10th of November, 1991 - both policemen are Muslims - at the Savski Most checkpoint, stopped a passenger vehicle, a Yugo 45 with licence plates OS149068, driven by a certain Radosava Ivanic, accompanied with Vinko Vucicevic, Gasparovic Zeljko, and Terzic Antun, all from Zupanja and Babina Greda in Croatia? Do you know anything about that incident?

A. I cannot remember that.

Q. At the time, pistols were confiscated, rifles, a sniper, bombs, 18 kilogrammes of explosives -- I underline this: 18 kilogrammes of explosives -- bullets packed in 200-gram packages each, plus 1.100 grams of Vitezit explosives, three sabotage time fuses, pistol bullets, et cetera, et cetera. So this is the official report dated the 10th of November, 1991, compiled in the police station in Brcko and signed by Omerovic Mirsad, a Muslim by name and surname, and Hasanovic Sefik, also a Muslim, and it contains all these details, including seven detonators, fuses, and other things in addition to the weapons, explosives, together with all the accompanying devices for provoking explosives and destroying facilities. And then it says who was in the vehicle. I asked you. You don't know anything about it, but please look at this official report. Are you informed about it? ²⁶²²⁷

A. No. I don't remember that. I'd like to see it, though.

Q. Yes, please do. It has a number, a date, and a signature.

A. I see this for the first time, and I don't remember this report. However, Your Honours, I would like to provide an explanation. Please bear in mind that policemen who thwarted this in both these documents were of Bosniak ethnicity. I wish to add to this that one of the two from the previous document, called Smailefendic Jasko, or Jasmin, was killed during the war on the side of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore, what I'm trying to say is it was not logical for a system of arming of citizens to exist and for an organised force to have been involved in this, a political or statal force, but that this was just arms trafficking. This was a period of intensified fighting in the immediate vicinity in Croatia. Brcko is on the border. And for months throughout that period we could hear shooting and during the night one could see flashes from the fighting. So that was the atmosphere that existed. So it's no wonder that there was arms smuggling as well.

JUDGE MAY: Let us -- before we go any further, let us get a number for this exhibit.

THE REGISTRAR: D182.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I too wish to point out, and I did so when reading it out to you, that the policemen were Muslims and that they seized weapons that were being smuggled from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. And what you are saying only shows that those people were not involved, but it doesn't mean that this was not organised. Those men, of course, were not implicated. ²⁶²²⁸ Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the arrests.

Now, as you say that you're not aware of this as president of the municipality, though you should have been because it is important, that on that day, the 10th of November, 1991, those same persons had intended, at the Brcko rail station, to carry out a sabotage, an act of sabotage and blow up a military convoy. And testifying to this is a document of the Brcko police, a criminal report against these persons. All these persons are listed, these same persons, and then it goes on to say - I'm just quoting a part of it - the intention being that same night they intended to use the explosives and to plant them to blow up a railway convoy with military vehicles on them, but they didn't succeed because at 2200 hours they were stopped, searched, and these things found on them. As a result, they committed a criminal offence, and the head of the public security station, Stjepan Filipovic, addresses this criminal report to the public prosecutor in Brcko on the 10th of November, 1991. So the intention was to blow up a military transport at the Brcko railway station. Are you aware of that or not, in view of the fact that you were president of the municipality at the time?

A. I didn't receive the explanation that you are reading to me now, but I would like to add the following: This proves simultaneously the activities of the authorities in Brcko at the time to prevent any kind of import or allowing things that could lead to instability and tension. So precisely this document testifies to that when you spoke of Stjepan Filipovic as the chief of police. So he's acting in that capacity. ²⁶²²⁹

Q. I'm talking about what was going on. As for what the policemen did, that was their duty to do it. But this is an act of sabotage. This is a criminal report, criminal charges dated November 1991. I wish to tender that too, please.

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see it first, and if he has any comments, he can make them.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have occasion to see this document. I see it for the first time, and I believe that the police headed by the chief of police, Stjepan Filipovic, was actually implementing our own political wish and policy to avoid any conflict in Brcko.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Ramic, I do believe that the police in those days was still implementing the law and not your political will or desire, because this was an act of sabotage. But do you know that one of the accused --

JUDGE MAY: Just wait a moment. You can't make comments like that when you're supposed to be examining.

The accused suggests that all Filipovic was doing was implementing the law, it's said, and not your political will. Now, his having made that comment, you're entitled to respond, Mr. Ramic, if you want to, or not.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say the following: I believe that Mr. Milosevic is trying to prove to us that we were creating the conditions for the outbreak of the conflict by being witnesses and accomplices to the arming, and that is what in fact he said in reference ²⁶²³⁰ to that meeting in Stari Rasadnik. I wanted to respond by saying that the political authorities, the state authorities in those days were endeavouring and striving to implement the law, and the political will of all the people in power, the multi-ethnic authorities in those days, had that same desire. So their views and wishes were identical.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: We'll get an exhibit number for the last exhibit to be handed in, the last police report.

THE REGISTRAR: D183.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that one of the accused, Radosav Ivanic gave a statement to the effect that with the others, he was to plant explosives for this military transport carrying guns and caterpillar tractors, heavy vehicles, armoured vehicles, et cetera, which were to be transported to Serbia? That was this military transport that was at the railway station.

A. I think there was no military transport going from Brcko to Serbia. Quite the opposite, all military transports came to Brcko. So such events did not take place. I am not aware of that name, but I also have an additional explanation and question or, rather, reply. Are you claiming that among those members there wasn't a single man of Serb ethnicity?

Q. Which members? Those who were going to blow up the military transport?

A. Yes, those who had such intentions. ^{26231 BLANK PAGE 26232}

Q. I'm not entering into that. The point is that it was intended against the JNA, and judging by the surnames, they were Croats or Muslims, as far as I can tell.

A. I'm not quite sure that they were all Croats. What I'm trying to say is that there was no military transport carrying military equipment from Brcko to Serbia. Quite the opposite. Military materiel and military contingents and troops came to Brcko.

Q. But this military transport at the station ready to leave surely would have been unloaded if it had arrived there. Isn't it clear, Mr. Ramic, that when you're talking about the amassing of weapons by the JNA in Brcko in the spring of 1991 you're saying quite the opposite from the official information, that already in 1991 heavy weapons were transferred from Brcko to Serbia already in 1991? You have the Official Note here, an official report compiled after an interview with Radoslav Ivanic, Osijek municipality, a resident of that municipality, et cetera, regarding the circumstances of the act of terrorism at the railway station in Brcko?

A. I am claiming that military materiel and military equipment and weapons were only coming to Brcko, that nothing went from Brcko in the direction of Serbia.

Q. A moment ago when I asked you about this interception and confiscation of weapons that you didn't know anything about it. You now appear to have some knowledge.

A. That is not true. You asked me a moment ago whether I knew of that incident, and now you're asking me whether military materiel was ²⁶²³³ going from Brcko to Serbia, and this is my response to that question.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, we have come to the time when we should adjourn.

Mr. Milosevic, you will have had one hour cross-examining this witness already. We bear in mind that this is a transcript witness and an important one, and therefore you should have longer than the usual time. We've considered how much longer you should have. I note that the witness in the original trial was one hour and a half in chief. Bearing all those matters in mind, we consider you should have another three-quarters of an hour to cross-examine this witness. That will be in the morning. Yes.

MR. NICE: May I, through Your Honours, remind the amicus, I'm sure they don't need reminding, but associates, that Mr. Saxon has organised one of his regular Rule 68 meetings this afternoon, and it will of course be of great assistance to the proper discharge of our Rule 68 duties if not only the amicus but the associates can attend, as they've been invited to do on previous occasions.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. They will have heard that. We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow -- nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to tender this note regarding the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in Brcko compiled on the 10th of November, 1991, as an exhibit, please. ²⁶²³⁴

JUDGE MAY: Is it an official report?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, an official report. It has a number, a date, the 10th of November, 1991, and it has to do with the circumstances of the terrorist act at the railway station in Brcko.

JUDGE MAY: What we will do is this, that when we return tomorrow morning, the witness can have a look at it. We will take it now, and we will return to it tomorrow morning. It can be given the next exhibit number meanwhile.

THE REGISTRAR: D184.

JUDGE MAY: And you'll let us know -- yes. We'll take that in, and we'll ask the witness about it in the morning, D184. And Mr. Milosevic, you will let us know tomorrow morning, we shall ask you whether you have any extra questions for the last witness. You remember there was some additional material.

We will adjourn --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I manage to read those 100-odd pages in addition to everything else.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nine o'clock tomorrow morning, please.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

the 10th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.