²⁶⁷⁰²

Tuesday, 16 September 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed] Examined by Mr. Ierace [Continued]:

Q. Mr. van Lynden, yesterday reference was made to the shelling of the city in early June 1992 and the filming of that shelling by your team from the upper floors of the state hospital. How far from the hospital were the Unis towers?

A. A couple of hundred metres at most.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask the witness be shown a video clip, which is tab 5.3.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Videotape played]

MR. IERACE:

Q. At one stage during that story we saw --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Ierace.

MR. IERACE: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: I have to say that the monitors which we have are completely invisible. We cannot go on in this way and something has to be done about it. I'm going to tell the Registry that we cannot have a trial ²⁶⁷⁰³ in which the Trial Chamber cannot see what is on the monitor. Now, I don't know what's to be done. I'm going to make some inquiries now.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: Can you see anything, Baron, there?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very dark, Your Honour, indeed, because certainly the early shots in that story were daylight, and it looks like it's in the middle of the night.

JUDGE MAY: The point is this, that the evidence loses all its impact.

MR. IERACE: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: I don't know why it can't be done. I don't understand.

MR. IERACE: The only suggestion I could make for today's purposes is to indicate which video clips I would otherwise have shown and for the Bench to view those in Chambers and questions to be asked as to their content after that.

Your Honour, perhaps another suggestion: We don't have a problem with our monitor at the bar table. I wonder if there was a short adjournment we might receive some technical assistance and adjust the monitors on the Bench, in particular the contrast, to maximise the picture that they're capable of producing.

JUDGE ROBINSON: How many clips do you have, Mr. Ierace?

MR. IERACE: Four altogether, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: It's the angle of the monitor. ²⁶⁷⁰⁴

MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Your Honour.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, some improvement might be made. Judge Kwon helpfully suggests a change in the monitor. Certainly it's a bit clearer. But of course the result is that one cannot see the rest of the court. An absurd situation. But in any event, we can't waste time. What we can do is to view these clips in due course in Chambers. We will play them now and try and see what we can, and if anything arises from it, as I say, we can view them in due course, which we will do. Yes.

MR. IERACE:

Q. Baron, in that clip you were seen facing the camera. Were you in the upper stories of the state hospital at that point?

A. I was on the top floor of the hospital.

Q. There was some footage as well of some patients. Do you know where that footage was taken?

A. Taken in the Kosevo hospital, the main academic hospital of Sarajevo, the following morning.

Q. And as best as you are able, when was that story filmed?

A. At the beginning of June 1992, the 5th or 6th or 7th of June. I don't recall the precise date, but it was in the early days of June, after the evacuation by the Yugoslav army from the Marsal Tito barracks.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask that video clip tab 2 now be screened.

[Videotape played] ²⁶⁷⁰⁵

MR. IERACE: In yesterday's summary of your evidence --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, I must, having complained earlier, there is an improvement, at least as far as my monitor is concerned, but let's go on.

MR. IERACE:

Q. In yesterday's presentation of your evidence on an earlier occasion, reference was made to an incident when you were driving along the Marsal Tito Boulevard and observed a high-rise apartment block come under fire. Does the footage we've just viewed relate to that incident?

A. It does.

Q. Reference was also made to an observation by you that the incendiary rounds continued to hit the building at a lower level than the firemen were as they attempted to put out the fire. Did you draw any conclusions from your observations in that regard?

A. Yes, I did. I felt that what was being done was that the civilian services, the fire services, were themselves being targeted. Having reached the fires in the upper stories of that building, fires were then caused by the incendiary rounds in the lower stories, and my conclusion was that they were trying to trap the firemen at the top of the building.

Q. When was that footage filmed?

A. On the 5th of December, 1992.

MR. IERACE: I ask the witness now be shown tab 5.9, a further video clip.

[Videotape played]

MR. IERACE: ²⁶⁷⁰⁶

Q. As best as you recollect, when was that footage shot?

A. In September 1992.

Q. Whereabouts was the Jewish cemetery in relation to the confrontation lines between the warring parties?

A. It was a sort of no man's land between the warring parties, right on the front lines.

Q. In the last minute or so of that story we appeared to see the view available through a space in a Serb position, a Bosnian Serb position; is that correct?

A. It is.

Q. The camera appeared to show successive telephoto shots of what could be seen through that space; is that correct?

A. It is.

Q. What is the area of the city that one could see through that space?

A. Marin Dvor square, the heart of the city where the Holiday Inn hotel is, the parliament, that area of the town. And the Unis towers were also clearly visible. That had been shown in the first story that you showed, then burning, by that stage of course destroyed, because this was later.

Q. Now, at any stage in 1992, did you interview General Ratko Mladic?

A. I did, in September 1992.

Q. Whereabouts did that interview take place?

A. The interview itself took place at an artillery position to the east of Sarajevo overlooking the city. ^{26707 BLANK PAGE 26708}

Q. Was the interview recorded on film or video?

A. It was.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask that we now see video clip tab 5.8.

[Videotape played]

MR. IERACE:

Q. And that was the video of the interview; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. During your narration, you referred to the General saying that he held the city in his palm.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did he say that to you or someone else?

A. No. He said that as we were walking there but when the cameraman was not actually filming him and me, and it was translated to me by the local producer I had with me. Apart from that, he actually tapped the palm of his hand.

Q. When you were living in the upper floors of the state hospital and made observations of shelling of the city, had you ever seen any rounds appear to emanate from that part of the city surrounds?

A. From the Bosnian side towards the Serb side?

Q. Yes.

A. I did not see any, no. We were there up all night, night after night, and we did not see anything emanating from the places -- any fire emanating from the places around us.

Q. Had you seen any fire appearing to come from that area, that is ²⁶⁷⁰⁹ the area where you conducted this interview?

A. Yes, and we actually filmed it on one occasion in the late afternoon, early evening, again at the beginning of June 1992. Rocket fire, multiple rocket launcher fire. And as far as I'm aware, I was taken to that precise position when I did the interview with General Mladic. This is to the east of Sarajevo.

Q. Yes. Do you recall what the rockets hit, if anything, in the city?

A. They appeared not to be aimed at one particular target, and we have footage of those rockets hitting the city, and these -- initially in the eastern half of the city. Only later did the fire become more concentrated on the Marsal Tito barracks, which had been evacuated. But while there was concentrated fire on the Marsal Tito barracks, there was also fire all across the city which was not just at one particular point but spread all over the city. So not at one particular target but simply targeting the city as a whole.

Q. All right. Did you interview Dr. Karadzic from time to time?

A. Yes. I met Dr. Karadzic on several occasions. At the London conference in August 1992, in Belgrade at the beginning of September 1992, and then in Pale repeatedly in September 1992, including several long meetings of three or four hours in the evenings. And the last time that I met him was in February 1994 when I made my last visit to Pale.

Q. Had Dr. Karadzic ever expressed to you off camera his views as to the nature of the Bosnian Serbs' claim on Sarajevo?

A. During the various conversations I had with him in Pale in ²⁶⁷¹⁰ September 1992, he repeatedly said that basically the whole city belonged to the Serbs, that it was all Serb territory. He had many maps on his desks, and he appeared to have coloured them in as to what was Serb land and what was non-Serb land, but Sarajevo he considered to be completely Serb, and he said that repeatedly. He also made one remark, saying, "Well, maybe we will have to compromise, but we cannot live with those people." And then he made a comment that surprised me and shocked me, because he said, "A wall should be built through Sarajevo." And you must remember that this was less than three years after the fall of the Berlin wall, a moment in which I think generally around the world everybody rejoiced that a city that had been divided in such a cruel manner had finally become one again, and now Dr. Karadzic was suggesting that a new wall should be built. I was pretty outraged by the suggestion.

Q. Did he ever explain to you his attitude towards Bosnians of the Muslim faith?

A. He did in a rather crude manner. He basically said that they were not Slavs and that they were Turks and made various crude remarks as to why he believed that was the case.

Q. Did you ever interview Slobodan Milosevic?

A. I did. At the end of July 1991, during the war in Croatia, I was granted an interview with Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Did he ever express to you, off camera, any views that he held as to the political situation in the region at the time?

A. We held the interview which, as I recall, lasted something like 40 minutes. Certainly more than 30 because the cameraman had to change tapes ²⁶⁷¹¹ and the tapes in the betacam camera lasted 30 minutes, so it lasted around 40 minutes. Mr. Milosevic then invited me into another room to share a glass of whisky with him, and there there were no more cameras so this was not part of the official interview and we had a more relaxed discussion. And then he said, "You must understand that we Serbs are being threatened" by what he called a papist German Fourth Reich, an Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against the Serb people, which he said was led by Hans Dietrich Genscher, the then German foreign minister.

Q. Did you form any view, when you heard those comments, as to what his ultimate intentions might be?

A. Well, apart from finding it slightly ludicrous that the Vatican is put together with Islamic fundamentalists, it was an indication both to me and to the producers who were with me - and these are local producers - that the intention was, it seemed to us, to take the war from Croatia into Bosnia and into Kosovo once the war in Croatia had been finished in a manner that the Serbs wanted it done.

Q. In relation to Kosovo, either on or off camera, did you question him as to his attitude towards Kosovars?

A. During the interview - this is the actual interview on camera - Mr. Milosevic did his best, and did a pretty good job at it, of basically evading my questions. But when I put it to him that while he demanded certain rights for the Serb minority in Croatia, he had behaved in precisely the opposite manner when it came to the Albanian population in Kosovo. They -- this had been an autonomous province with its own member of the Federal Presidency of Yugoslavia, and the rights of the Albanian ²⁶⁷¹² majority in Kosovo had, under President Milosevic's rule of Serbia, been taken away, and I said that these two -- that, you know it didn't fit, you couldn't ask for one thing and take it away from somebody else elsewhere. It was the only moment during the interview that Mr. Milosevic became a little angry, and he made it very clear that Kosovo was Serb in his opinion, that it would remain Serb, and that the two issues in his opinion were not linked.

Q. All right. Now, in 1994, following the Markale market incident in early February, did you spend any time in Sarajevo or on the Bosnian Serb side in Sarajevo?

A. When the massacre occurred, I was in Central Bosnia. To drive from Central Bosnia into Sarajevo, you have to cross Serb lines, and it was made clear to our bureau chief in Belgrade who came down to Pale that the Bosnian Serb leadership would not allow me to cross immediately into Sarajevo. It wanted me to come to Pale first. So that's what we did. We sent a -- Sky News sent another team into Sarajevo itself and I went to Pale and spent the first couple of weeks after the massacre in Pale during which NATO, of course, gave its first ultimatum to the Serbs which led to the 20-kilometre exclusion zone for heavy weaponry around Sarajevo.

Q. Did you become aware of any indications of Serb solidarity in the face of the aftermath of the Markale massacre as you call it?

A. Yes. We were told that Vojislav Seselj, the extreme nationalist leader in Belgrade had come down to Pale, but I did not personally see him, but we were told by people within the Bosnian Serb Presidency, and I ^{26713 BLANK PAGE 26714} personally witnessed that Milan Martic, who was then the leader of the Serbs in Croatia came to Pale and together with Radovan Karadzic inspected a guard of honour in the snow outside what was the Bosnian Serb Presidency in Pale.

Q. Were you ever given any information as to whether there were any meetings that took place from time to time between Dr. Karadzic, General Mladic, and Mr. Milosevic?

A. Yes. It was clear that they were meeting during the London conference. And when I met Dr. Karadzic in the Intercontinental Hotel in Belgrade in September 1992 prior to going down to Pale, he told me that he was there also to meet Mr. Milosevic. From other sources both in Pale and in Belgrade, I was told that there were regular meetings between the two men, sometimes with General Mladic present, sometimes not. I was also told that there were meetings just between General Mladic and Mr. Milosevic.

Q. You referred earlier to conversations that you had with Dr. Karadzic and interviews indeed that you conducted with him. Was he ever forthcoming about the content of the meetings that he had with Mr. Milosevic?

A. No, he wasn't. We did ask him on various occasions what he thought Mr. Milosevic thought of any particular development, and he told us that he couldn't talk about such matters.

Q. All right. Did you understand that at some stage during the conflict an embargo was placed by Serbian authorities on the movement of goods from Serbia into Bosnian Serb territory? ²⁶⁷¹⁵

A. Yes, I am aware.

Q. As best as you recollect, when was that?

A. April, May 1993.

Q. Did you make any observations as to whether the embargo was carried out, and if so, what were those observations?

A. Yes. This is the period after the Bosnian Serb parliament had rejected the Vance-Owen Peace Plan for Bosnia, and the Bosnian Serbs then organised a referendum on the decision of the Bosnian Serb parliament. My understanding was that Mr. Milosevic had ordered an embargo to prove his anger with the Bosnian Serb parliament for not following his advice and accepting the Vance-Owen peace plan and that he had ordered an embargo of oil and fuel in particular. An embargo within an embargo, because Serbia at that stage was under an UN embargo. But when we drove into northern parts of Eastern Bosnia, we went to a village called Janja and we went into the town of Bijeljina, we saw at various points trucks of various sizes still entering Serb-held parts of Bosnia from Serbia proper. We also saw oil tankers going in, petrol tankers going in. So therefore, leaving us the conclusion that the embargo was one in name only and wasn't being really upheld, and it was an open joke later on in Belgrade that of course this was not really happening but that this was a political move to try and prove something to the international community.

Q. All right. Reference was made yesterday in terms of your earlier evidence to you covering the conflict in Croatia in 1991. Did you notice any similarity between uniforms that you saw in 1991 outside Sarajevo and those that you saw being worn by Bosnian Serb forces around Sarajevo in ²⁶⁷¹⁶ 1992?

A. I wasn't in Sarajevo in 1991.

Q. No. When you were in Sarajevo or at least on Bosnian Serb-held territory in 1992 and made observations as to the uniforms, how did those uniforms compare to those worn by soldiers that you'd seen in 1991?

A. They were the same. The only thing was that there was now a cap badge which had the colours of Serbia, white, blue and red. But the uniforms were absolutely identical.

Q. Were you in Vukovar in 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. Whilst there, did you meet any JNA officers?

A. Yes, I did. I met a number officers, including -- I think he was then a major, I think he's now a colonel, Sljivancanin. I've probably mispronounced the name. My excuses for that. And the last few days of the siege we spent all our time with a unit of the 1st Armoured Brigade of the Guards, and there there were a number of officers, including one called Mladen Maric.

Q. All right. Did you receive any information as to whether any of those officers later surfaced in the context of the conflict in Sarajevo?

A. Yes. We spent quite some time with Mladen Maric and indeed even went out to dinner in Belgrade with him and some of his men after the fall of Vukovar, and in June 1992, my producer who had been with me in Vukovar told me that he had seen Mladen Maric at the Lukavica barracks on the edge of Sarajevo in June 1992.

Q. What was your information, if any, as to the capacity in which he ²⁶⁷¹⁷ was present in Lukavica?

A. He was there as an officer of the Yugoslav army. My understanding was, from what I was told by my producer, that he and his unit, which were just about the best units within the Yugoslav army, were there to try or to prepare for a strike into Sarajevo, which we understood was a strike towards the Marsal Tito barracks and to cut the city in two. That did not go ahead because then an accord was reached and the Marsal Tito barracks were evacuated.

My understanding of what happened to -- or he was then a captain, a first captain in the Yugoslav army -- was that although he originally came from Bosnia, he refused to become an actual member of the Bosnian Serb army and returned to Serbia proper, and as far as I'm aware, he is still in what is now the Serb army.

Q. All right. And was Marsal Tito barracks positioned at the narrowest point of the valley floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in autumn 1991, did you report on the conflict in the area south of Dubrovnik?

A. I did.

Q. And was that in the vicinity of Cavtat.

A. Cavtat Yes, indeed. We flew into Montenegro. We had permission from the Yugoslav army to accompany them up -- from Montenegro up the coastal road that leads to Dubrovnik. We passed through several villages that had been razed to the ground, and the forests in this area had also been burnt and it was a sign to us that there was simply a scorched-earth ²⁶⁷¹⁸ policy on the part of the Yugoslav army.

We passed the airport and then came to the outskirts of Cavtat, which is a small town or large village with a natural harbour, and a very beautiful place it is, and there there was still some shooting going on, although I only saw fire from the Yugoslav army, including, somewhat to my amazement, from a T-33 tank. This is tank of -- Soviet tank from the Second World War.

We then followed the troops as they entered Cavtat. As I say, I didn't see any sign of resistance but there may have been some before we arrived. In the town we then spoke to some civilians, and we witnessed that at least ten inhabitants of Cavtat were taken away by the Yugoslav army.

Q. All right. You've said that you saw no signs of resistance from the town. Did you see any steps taken to impede their advance further north?

A. While we were in Cavtat, by the harbour there was an extremely loud explosion. We couldn't immediately see what this was because there were houses between us and the site of the explosion. When we got to higher territory, we saw what we imagined had been an explosion caused by the Croat forces to block the main coastal road leading further north from Cavtat to Dubrovnik.

Q. The ten men, or the ten people you describe as civilians, what was it that led you to the conclusion that they were indeed civilians?

A. Well, I spoke to one of them before he was taken away, in his bar. He was -- he ran a bar. They were all in civilian clothes. We were given ^{26719 BLANK PAGE 26720} the names of all ten of them, which we wrote down, and after they were taken away, and we got no more further information as to why they were being taken away, I did a small report and handed it in to the International Committee of the Red Cross in Belgrade that we had witnessed these ten people - ten, it may be 11, it may be nine - and that's the last I heard of it until I returned to Cavtat in 1994 and met the bar owner again. He was still the owner of the bar, but he was a man in pretty bad psychological state. He told me that he had been held for several months and that he had been severely beaten up.

Q. Did you ever question any leaders of the Serb community as to the reason for the attack on the wider Dubrovnik area?

A. While we were in Cavtat, two senior Yugoslav officers arrived there. As I recall, one from the army and from the navy. We did speak to them, but they wouldn't speak to us. They wouldn't answer our question as to why this attack was being done, because this was not an area where Serbs lived, nor is Dubrovnik a town where Serbs lived, apart from one or two.

We never got an answer from other officers on that particular trip. We also, of course, asked people in Belgrade as to why Dubrovnik, one of the great cities, a pearl, and I suspect the best known, worldwide, city from the former Yugoslavia was being attacked in this manner which we felt was extremely detrimental to the Serb cause, and I never caught a clear answer from anyone.

Q. Who was the most senior person that you recall posing that question to? ²⁶⁷²¹

A. Mr. Jovic, in -- who was a very close associate of Mr. Milosevic in Belgrade.

Q. What was his response?

A. He gave no response. Again, he wouldn't answer the question. The question was simple: "Why are you allowing the Yugoslav army to attack Dubrovnik? What's the sense of this?" And he simply shook his head and wouldn't answer the question. This was not in a formal interview, I should add, Your Honours. We ran into Mr. Jovic during a conference and managed to speak to him for a few minutes.

Q. In the same year as your observations in Dubrovnik, in the Dubrovnik area in 1991, did you cover the conflict in the Banja area of Croatia? In particular, did you enter the village of Struga?

A. I did.

Q. And was anything happening at around that time, either before or after you entered that village that you observed?

A. As I recall, this was in July 1991. It was my first day in covering the war that was going on in Croatia. We entered -- crossed from Bosnia into Croatia very early in the morning, and we'd been told that there had been fighting in this village called Struga, which lies close to a larger village or small town called Dvor na Uni. We drove into Struga. There we discovered a unit from the Yugoslav army who verified that there had been a shooting going on, who told us, and this is a Serb officer who I later encountered in Bosnia, that Serb militiamen had entered the village of Struga during the night, from Friday to Saturday morning, and indiscriminately opened fire on the houses. ²⁶⁷²² As I recall, at least four villagers in Struga were killed. Most of the rest of the population fled. Some of them had shot back because two Serb militiamen had been killed.

The JNA officer told me that they had only been sent or only arrived in Struga as a buffer between the two sides after the shooting was over.

Q. What was your assessment as to that explanation by him as to his presence?

A. Well, I mean, one -- I can't give a definitive explanation, but we had a sense that there was some coordination between the Serb militia and the JNA and that the arrival of the JNA so late, only when the fighting had stopped and the militia had withdrawn, that the two were in touch with each other. That was certainly also the opinion of the Croat villagers in Struga.

Q. All right. If you're able to answer the following questions fairly briefly because we are short of time. In that area did you come across at all Captain Dragan?

A. Yes.

Q. Whereabouts was that?

A. I met him in Dvor na Uni on the same day that I had entered Struga.

Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion that you saw him?

A. No. I met him on several occasions after that.

Q. Was one of those encounters after, as you understood it, he ²⁶⁷²³ carried out some arrests of some local Serb people?

A. That's right. Several days after this incident in Struga, we had agreed to meet Captain Dragan in Dvor na Uni. When we arrived there, we encountered him and he told us that he had arrested ten local Serbs for what he said was butchering four Croat women in the clinic in Dvor na Uni. Those Croat women had come from the village of Struga. And he said that that kind of behaviour was unacceptable because it was the same kind of behaviour that the Croats had used again the Serbs during the Second World War and therefore that he had arrested them.

Q. What was the response of local Serbs to those arrests as you understood it?

A. The situation was extremely tense. Captain Dragan, who had his own militia based in the town of Knin, had put those militiamen around the building in which he was holding these ten Serbs, and -- but there were also villagers there who were clearly angry and who wanted those ten men released.

Q. And what was the outcome of that incident?

A. Well, after several hours, a man who I didn't immediately recognise but whom I was later introduced to as Milan Martic arrived, and he ordered, during a rather heated argument between the two men, he ordered Captain Dragan to release the ten Serbs and that's what Captain Dragan did.

Q. Did you make any observations as to the command and control that Captain Dragan exercised over his forces?

A. His forces seemed more disciplined and better trained than other ²⁶⁷²⁴ militiamen. They wore different uniforms. They were all in one uniform. They had guns from various parts of the world, not just Kalashnikovs. He was clearly in command of his men, but he clearly came under the command of Milan Martic.

Q. Did you ask him how he was financed, where he received his weaponry from, his support?

A. Well, one asks questions like that, but one doesn't always expect an answer, and I didn't get one on that occasion.

Q. Did you ever ask him who ultimately was in charge in terms of his operation?

A. I asked him who was in charge of what the Serbs were trying to achieve, and his answer was Slobodan Milosevic.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, that completes examination-in-chief of this witness. Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ierace, I think we haven't admitted the package including the transcript yet. 540?

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

MR. IERACE: I would be grateful for a number for all of that.

THE REGISTRAR: 540, Your Honours.

MR. IERACE: Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, I should first of all like to ask you to take a look at some footage together, some of the ones you brought.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before we do so, Mr. May, I have ^{26725 BLANK PAGE 26726} received several of these CDs, and this one here where it says "van Lynden Compilation," is empty. So I wasn't able to establish what was on that CD, but that doesn't matter. I can still ask --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- go ahead with my questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, can you help us about that, please?

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, there have been some technical difficulties in producing CDs of the video clips, but I'm surprised to hear that there is still a problem. Perhaps if we could have access to that CD, we could make some further inquiries.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let them have it back, Mr. Milosevic, and we'll see what the problem is.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But regardless of that, there's enough other material to be getting along with, so I can do without the compilation, I assume.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. van Lynden, I have here this other CD. It says V0000870, and 000/0871. On your film -- actually that was footage by night, wasn't it, showing the one we saw in 000870/1, that's the one I'm referring to.

JUDGE MAY: I don't think the numbers are going to help anybody, but you can describe the clip you want to ask the witness about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that as I've been given very precise data from the CD, I don't know how I could use it otherwise but by giving the numbers of that CD if I want to have it shown, ²⁶⁷²⁷ the clip shown. But with respect to this first question, it needn't be shown because we all had a chance of seeing it, and the fact that the town was shelled is not in dispute. We can see the incendiary bullets flying around in different directions and so on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That's right, isn't it?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, we've seen it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tracer bullets.

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of which story Mr. Milosevic is referring to, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Would you be specific, Mr. Milosevic. What are you referring to?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm referring to precisely the footage on 0870/1 and the positions ranging from 000 to 00048, that particular section and clip.

JUDGE MAY: Which of the clips that was shown? Is it the first clip that was shown this morning?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I'm talking about this other CD, the one that was given me. The one we saw this morning, as you were able to see, was quite invisible, actually.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But my question is the following, Mr. van Lynden: Tell me, please, was this an exchange of gunfire between the Muslim forces and the Serb forces? Is that what it was about or was it just one-sided, fire from one side, from the Serb positions, what you observed? ²⁶⁷²⁸

JUDGE MAY: The witness will not be able to say what you're talking about. Let's see if we can get at it another way.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I should like you -- them to have this CD played, because I'm going to ask questions pertaining to it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can put it in the machine over there. The CD is 000/0870, and it also says V000871. That's the other marking on it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I note that clip 870 is 12 minutes and 15 seconds long. We can play it, of course, if it's required; and I suspect that the second clip, 871, is of a similar length.

JUDGE MAY: Let us start by playing the first clip and then we will see how we get on. If necessary, we can break into it. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. Let us get on with this.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first clip is from 000 to 00048.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's up to 48. My question was --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Yes. Go on now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. My question is: Was this an exchange of fire or one-way shelling of the town?

A. Firstly, I should explain that this is a half-hour compilation that I did for the end of the year 1992 about the war in Bosnia as a ²⁶⁷²⁹ whole.

Secondly, the pictures of the shelling you see are all from the early days of June 1992, after the evacuation of the Marsal Tito barracks, and those pictures show only incoming fire to the Bosnian-held parts of the Bosnian capital.

Q. Very well. Immediately after that on this same footage, up until 01:02 -- from where we stopped up to 01:02, we see daytime shots of a coffee bar in Sarajevo, men having drinks. Was that the next day after the battles, after these battles? Was that the following day?

A. No. Those were pictures taken not by my own crew but by other crews, as far as I recall, prior to the war in Bosnia beginning.

Q. But they follow immediately after this footage of the shelling. So that is why I assumed you filmed it after that. Tell me, what is the date of what you showed on these clips?

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that somebody else -- somebody else filmed those clips.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I would now like to ask you to move on on this same CD, 01:08. Could you please stop the V000870/1. And we see citizens taking part in a referendum. Could you show us that part of this clip; 01:08 from the footage 0870/1.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will you stop there, please, and turn it back to the poster for the referendum. Will you wind back the ²⁶⁷³⁰ tape to show the ballot paper. The poster that we saw for the referendum.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour --

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The poster, please. That one. Stop there, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What does it say here on this poster? We saw a moment ago it says "referendumi", and on this ballot paper, as far as I can read it, it says "letervoten." What language is this? In what language is this ballot paper?

A. I can't read it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpreters can tell us what language this is in. My impression is that these are shots from a referendum at Kosovo.

JUDGE MAY: It's not for the interpreters to give evidence. It may be that somebody can help as to what it is.

THE WITNESS: Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE WITNESS: If I may try and explain. When this end of year documentary was made, I was not actually there when it was edited, when the pictures were put over my words. I was in Bosnia when I wrote this, and the voice tapes, my voice tapes, were sent back to our office in London and the pictures were put over. My understanding was that these were pictures taken again by others, because I was not in Bosnia when the referendum took place. And if these pictures are -- do not match my ^{26731 BLANK PAGE 26732} words, then I apologise, but I was not personally responsible because others in London were responsible for that. But that's a possible explanation as to why, if the two don't match.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I understand your explanation, but the question of authenticity of what is being shown arises, because obviously this is a shot of a referendum in Kosovo. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Albanian language could not have been used on the ballot paper.

A. That's possible. I'm not aware. I wasn't there with the editing. And if that was so, then it was a mistake and not anything but a simple mistake.

Q. I assume, Mr. van Lynden, that you are aware that prior to that referendum and prior to the proclamation of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that referendum which was held without the participation of the Serbs, there were no conflicts in Bosnia. I assume you know that.

A. Yes.

Q. Will you please look at position 01:20 from this same CD. I want to ask you whether it is quite clear that it shows men on barricades. 01:20.

[Videotape played]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. These are men on the barricades, are they not? Tell me, were they Serbs who were armed and who erected these barricades or someone else?

A. I was informed that they were Serbs. Again, I was not present in the city. This is an overview, a general overview of what happened in ²⁶⁷³³ Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.

Q. In what part of town -- of the town of Sarajevo were these barricades erected?

A. I didn't film this, so I wasn't there. So I couldn't tell you with any precision.

Q. Will you please look at position 02:20 from the same CD, 02:20.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 02:20, not 01:47. 02:20.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, it's not possible with this software to fast forward with the picture being visible on the screen. One was to get and place the cursor where one anticipates it might be. So we'll do our best.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking you to fast forward, not back. 02:20.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to have to deal with this better. Can we simply play this compilation? I wonder if that would be the best and then the accused can ask his questions. Is that going to be a possibility? Because otherwise, we're never really going to get on.

MR. IERACE: It's easily done, Your Honour. It will take 12 minutes and 15 seconds to play it in its entirety.

JUDGE MAY: Well, play it on to the next part that he wants to ask a question about.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop it there, please. ²⁶⁷³⁴

JUDGE MAY: We're not -- just play it on until we get to the part you want to ask a question about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop here, please. Stop here, please. I wanted the picture to remain on the screen, please, just to see the still, please, so we can see what it is. Could you enlarge it a little? A moment ago one could see quite clearly what it was.

MR. IERACE: That can't be done, Your Honour.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two seconds prior to this, there was a close-up of this same scene.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop there, please. Freeze.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Are these JNA soldiers? What you describe as the evacuation of the Marsal Tito barracks, but in fact it was a massacre that occurred during the evacuation, when the column was attacked in Dobrovoljacka Street at the beginning of May 1992?

A. You're confusing two different evacuations, Mr. Milosevic. There was indeed some kind of an ambush and shooting in May 1992 at the beginning with the evacuation of another barracks. I was not in the city at that stage. I was in the city when the Marsal Tito barracks were evacuated, and I am not aware of any JNA soldiers coming under fire then. Again, these pictures were taken by other cameramen at a stage when I was not in Sarajevo.

And once again, just to explain to Your Honours, this is a compilation made over my words by editors who were not under my control ²⁶⁷³⁵ because I was working in Sarajevo at the time.

Q. Regardless of that, as you are providing the commentary for the evacuation of the barracks and the ambush for JNA soldiers, the JNA was leaving the barracks and there was an ambush in Dobrovoljacka Street?

JUDGE MAY: You have been told before you must not misrepresent what the witness said. He said that on this occasion when the Marsal Tito barracks were evacuated, there was no ambush and no soldiers were killed. Now, that's what he said. You must pay attention to what he said and ask your questions accordingly.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May, but he also said that during the previous evacuation there was an ambush that the soldiers fell into and that a number of them were killed. And this was at the beginning of May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

JUDGE MAY: That is what the witness said.

Q. Is it true, Mr. van Lynden, that up until then, there had been no shelling of Sarajevo until that attack on the JNA? That is, up until the beginning of May. Up until that event that took place at the beginning of May, 1992.

A. As I said, I was not in the city beforehand, Mr. Milosevic. I only arrived at the end of May 1992. I'm certainly aware of reports that there was fighting in Sarajevo. As to the level of shelling, I can't report about anything that I wasn't there for. I can tell you what happened after I was in Sarajevo. But there was certainly fighting in ²⁶⁷³⁶ Sarajevo before that incident of the ambush of the soldiers leaving another barracks.

Q. I didn't ask you whether there was fighting in Sarajevo. I asked you whether there had been any shelling. Namely, I have in mind -- I am not trying to confuse you. I have in mind a statement by General Nambiar, and I'm sure you followed these things as you were a reporter, who said that there had been no shelling before the 3rd of May when this massacre occurred in Dobrovoljacka Street, that the shelling started after that.

A. I wouldn't argue with the general. If he said that, then -- I mean, I wasn't in the city so I cannot say whether there wasn't or wasn't. All I am aware is that there was fighting going on. So whether that was with heavy shelling or not, but there was fighting going on.

Q. In any event, Mr. van Lynden, what you are showing, that is the actual shelling, it dates to -- the date is June 1992. That means after these events and the conflicts that occurred during the withdrawal from the barracks. I think the date is not in dispute. Is that right?

A. As I've said, the pictures at the beginning of this story date from the beginning of June 1992. I don't dispute those dates, nor do I dispute this happened at the beginning of May, but again, I was not there for that. But the pictures of the shelling that were shown do come after that event indeed.

Q. You said this morning, describing the battles around the Jewish cemetery, which you describe as no-man's land, that the fiercest battles were held around the Jewish cemetery, on both sides of the Jewish cemetery. Is that right? ^{26737 BLANK PAGE 26738}

A. I was told both from the Bosnian side and from the Bosnian Serb side when I visited those front lines that there had indeed been extremely heavy fighting there. But the company commander who was shown, that I accompanied earlier, in one of the earlier clips shown by Mr. Ierace, had told me that at that stage that section, that front was quieter than it had been before. And that conversation took place with that major in September 1992.

Q. Yes, but I was referring to what you -- I noted down when you said that the fiercest fighting was around the Jewish cemetery. As you are testifying as a war reporter, the two sides were in conflict there, were they not?

A. They were.

Q. So it wasn't a one-sided attack, but there was a conflict between two sides and that was where the front line was. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

A. There was fighting between two sides at the front at the Jewish cemetery, certainly.

Q. Very well. On this CD of yours which is now in the machine, at position 02:49, you can see Jusuf Juka Prazina being wounded and leaving a building. I assume it's a hospital. Is that right?

A. I would have to see it, Your Honour, before I can say whether it is Jusuf Prazina or not.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Videotape played]

THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, that is Jusuf Prazina. I'm not ²⁶⁷³⁹ sure that this shows him leaving a hospital. It shows him walking with crutches on the street. I did once encounter Mr. Prazina during a visit to the Kosevo hospital when he was having his wounds looked at, but he had been wounded at the beginning of the war, prior to my arrival in Sarajevo.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that -- do you know that he was an infamous Sarajevo criminal?

A. I'm not sure about the word "infamous," but I know that he was a criminal. He admitted to me, and in the one story that I did about him I said this in the text, that he had had at least five sentences to prison.

JUDGE KWON: Is he also called Juka?

THE WITNESS: He is. Yes, that was how he was known; Juka. His official name was Jusuf Prazina, and as far as I'm aware, he was found shot dead in Belgium in 1993.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You made a whole story about him and showed him like some sort of hero, a modern Robin Hood of Sarajevo, distributing toys and humanitarian aid. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

A. I certainly did a story about him. Whether he is a hero in that story or not is up to the viewer. I know from people who do not come from the Balkans, who were surprised at this story that I had done, because I had also said that in the early days of the war he's one of the principal defenders of Sarajevo, and I make quite clear in the story that he was a criminal, and they did not see this as me making him into some kind of a ²⁶⁷⁴⁰ hero. He did go around town and had the odd habit of opening the boot of his car and handing toys to children. We'd simply filmed the reality.

Q. Tell me, are you aware of another rather unusual habit that he had, and that is to kill Serbs around Sarajevo, apart from distributing toys to children? It is by this other activity that Juka Prazina and his criminals are known by.

A. I never saw him kill any Serbs in Sarajevo. Let me answer the question. You asked me a question. I'll answer it. I never saw him kill any Serbs. In amongst his men were Bosnian Serbs. It wasn't a purely Muslim unit. There were also Croats in that unit. And as far as that is concerned, his unit mirrored Sarajevan society in 1992. I make no claims that he did not murder Serbs. All I'm saying is that I did not witness it.

Q. I certainly believe you didn't see him do that, killing anyone, but do you know, since yesterday you mentioned that you didn't get permission to see prisons on the Bosnian side in Sarajevo, do you know how many private and official prisons for Serbs there were in Sarajevo during the time of those battles in and around Sarajevo?

A. No. I don't have any precise number.

Q. You don't have a precise number. I can understand that. But do you have any idea regarding the number of those prisons, any kind of idea, even a most vague one?

A. No. I can't give a figure. But, Mr. Milosevic, if I may just add that while I asked the Bosnian authorities repeatedly throughout the war to be given access to those prisons, I also did the same on the other side ²⁶⁷⁴¹ of the front line and was only given access once to one prison. When I visited both the Bihac enclave and the Gorazde enclave, respectively in 1994 and 1993, I was given access to two prisons in both those enclaves, but in Sarajevo no. I couldn't give you any figure. I would just be guessing.

Q. So the Serbs did allow you to have access to two prisons with prisoners of war; is that right?

A. To one prison and not with any prisoners of war. These were people who had been arrested prior to the war in Hadzici in April 1992. None of them ever fought.

Q. It was a regular prison, was it?

A. No, it was not. It was at Kula. It was not a regular prison. The prisoners were forced to work. These were all civilians that had been rounded up by the Serb authorities in Hadzici.

Q. But on the Muslim side they wouldn't let you see a single prison?

A. No, on the Bosnian side, both in the Gorazde enclave at the beginning of 1993 and in the Bihac enclave in November-December 1994, I was given access to prisons where I saw prisoners of war from the Bosnian Serb side wearing uniform. I'm not saying that there were not other prisons in Gorazde or Bihac - there may well have been - but I was given access to one in each.

Q. Mr. van Lynden, look at position 04:43:16. 04:43:16.

[Videotape played]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Does one see there crosses in several places? In fact, you show ²⁶⁷⁴² funerals and the cries of Serbs and large scale funerals of Serbs. You have this in several places in your features. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

A. The pictures that have just gone by were pictures take in Dobrinja at the beginning of July. This is on the outskirts of Sarajevo, by the airport. Beginning of July 1992, where the siege within the siege was so harsh that the people could only bury their dead at night and not in a proper cemetery but by the roadside. What you saw there was a mixture of Serb, Croat, and Bosnian Muslim dead, therefore buried under different symbols, both crosses and non-crosses.

But, yes, I have also witnessed funerals on the Bosnian Serb side. The one that sticks in my mind would be the one in Vlasenica in -- again in September 1992, when, if I'm correct, 28 Bosnian Serb soldiers were killed in the front lines somewhere around the Bosnian enclave of Srebrenica. And that was indeed a mass funeral.

Q. That is the only mass funeral on the Serb side that you filmed. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

A. As far as I can recall, yes, that's the only mass. I mean, I filmed in Dvor na Uni back in July 1991 a funeral of two people. I filmed various funerals in Belgrade in 1991, of soldiers who had been killed in the fighting. But as far as a mass funeral is concerned, that's the only one that I remember, yes.

JUDGE MAY: That may be a convenient moment. It's time for the break.

Let me make two administrative announcements. We will give an ^{26743 BLANK PAGE 26744} oral ruling on the preparation of the Defence case at a convenient time during the first session tomorrow, Wednesday, or if there is no convenient time, before the first break.

Secondly, we will admit the statement of Witness B-1543 under Rule 92 bis, the witness meeting the various requirements; however, the witness must be present for cross-examination.

We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: We've considered, Mr. Milosevic, how long you should have for cross-examination in all the circumstances of this case. We will give you longer than the Prosecution had. There is a transcript also. The upshot is we will give you another hour and ten minutes, if you require it. If you don't, of course, we'll go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. van Lynden, you explained that a part of the footage shown was not taken by your crew, your team, but you took over other people's footage and clips; is that right?

A. In this one story that you have been asking the Court to show, that is correct. In this half hour that I wrote but was not present at the editing of at the end of 1992, that is correct.

Q. All right. But the comments were yours, weren't they?

A. I wrote the script, yes.

Q. And in the script, did you write, for example, where you can see ²⁶⁷⁴⁵ the dead soldiers of the JNA, that they had in fact been killed? Did you say that they were killed withdrawing without putting up any struggle from Sarajevo, without any fighting? They were brutally killed on the occasion. Did your script and comments run in that direction? I didn't notice that you did.

A. I don't have the script in front of me, but I don't recall doing so, no.

Q. So you didn't say that. And when showing the graves, you didn't say that they were Serb graves as well, did you? You said a moment ago that there were Serb, Muslim, and Croatian and I don't know what other kind of graves you mentioned, but you didn't say these included Serb graves, did you?

A. This is in relation to those graves in Dobrinja. They were Bosnian graves, Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat, Bosnian Muslim. I didn't have to say they included Bosnian Serb. And I should remember -- remind you that this was on the Bosnian side of the front lines.

Q. Yes, but Serbs were killed there too, and you didn't deny that, did you?

A. No, I don't deny that.

Q. Well, then, you're not commenting and saying that it was the soldiers who were killed without any fighting and were pulled out, and the Serb graves either.

Now, in your comments, in your commentary, do you distort the actual image of what was going on in Sarajevo?

A. I don't think I did. Again, I have to point out to you that I was ²⁶⁷⁴⁶ not there when the pictures were put over my words. Therefore, I was not even aware that the pictures that you showed earlier of JNA soldiers lying dead in the streets were going to be put in over my words. I was working in Sarajevo at the time.

Q. All right. But I assume that since you were a journalist and since you lived for a time in Belgrade as well or, rather, stayed in Belgrade for some time, that you knew full well that when it was a question of the shelling of Sarajevo that Serbia from top level on several occasions condemned the shelling of Sarajevo, but you say nothing about that.

A. I am aware of those comments having been made, yes.

Q. Very well, Mr. van Lynden. Now, in paragraph 1 of your statement, you say that you knew that in the course of 1991 and 1992, Sky News broadcast on channel 3 of -- was broadcast over channel 3 of Radio-Television Serbia; is that right?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness, before answering, have a copy of the statement.

THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Not 24 hours a day, but I believe up to 12 hours per day. I believe also this third channel was only available within Belgrade or the larger Belgrade area. I don't think it was available in the whole of Serbia.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. How far it could be seen can be established, but it was state Radio-Television Serbia television which broadcast your programme both in 1991 and 1992, and that means that the viewers in ²⁶⁷⁴⁷ Serbia, which means those without satellite dishes, were able to follow the Sky News programme direct and the reports, and therefore were able to become acquainted with the contents of your reports and commentaries, right, both in Croatia and Bosnia?

A. I'm not sure when it was stopped. I say in the statement up until spring or summer of 1992. Certainly for the whole of 1991 it was shown in Serbia. And correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Milosevic, but I think that's probably one of the reasons why the people in your office advised you to give me interview in July 1991.

Q. Well, I don't know what the reason was, but I did give a number of interviews. So I assume by the same token that the interview that you're quoting was given that way too.

Now, do you agree that Radio-Television Serbia during the period that you're talking about took over not only the information programme of Sky News but also televised part of the CNN programmes, BBC, and other world television channels? Do you remember that?

A. I do not remember that other channels were broadcast in a similar fashion as Sky News was on the third channel, no. In 1989 when Sky News first went on air, the man then running the third channel, a man called Jaksa Scekic, went to London and made an agreement with the head of Sky News whereby Yugoslav television could have access to Sky News pictures and stories, and Sky News could have access to pictures from Yugoslav television. It was this man, as far as I'm aware, Mr. Scekic, who saw to it that Sky News was then broadcast what I think was 12 hours a day on the third channel. I'm not aware of a similar arrangement with either BBC or ²⁶⁷⁴⁸ CNN. Whether excerpts from BBC or CNN were shown on Serb television is possible, but I don't think they had a similar relationship as the one between Sky News and Yugoslav television.

Q. Well, I have to say that I don't know about that arrangement between Sky News, but I do know that Sky News was broadcast. Now, what the arrangement was, I don't know, and it's not really important. But doesn't it show quite clearly that there was no intention to create a distorted picture of the events which could be seen on television by viewers in Serbia in view of the fact that you could -- they had an insight into different viewpoints, different reports by foreign television stations about the events in Yugoslavia?

A. I would say that might be possible if people were watching the third channel, but I would say that in my personal opinion, the evening news on main the Serb television channels gave a very distorted picture as to what was going on, firstly in the war in Croatia, and then in the war in Bosnia.

Q. So on channel 1 the image was distorted, was it, and on channel 3 they gave an objective view by that same television network? Is that what you're saying?

A. I'm saying that in my opinion when I watched and had translated to me what went out on the main news bulletins of Serb television during 1991, 1992, and 1993 was indeed distorted. Sky News was broadcast on the third channel, but the third channel didn't have its own news programme. It showed Sky News in 1991, and I -- we imagined that when that was stopped, it was done for the reason to stop people from getting an ^{26749 BLANK PAGE 26750} alternative view, because what was then being shown on Sky News was very different from what was being shown on the main television channel within Serbia.

Q. Very well, Mr. van Lynden. In any case, it is not in dispute that during 1991 and 1992, Sky News was televised over state television of Serbia.

In paragraph 3, you mention an interview that you had with me at the end of July and the beginning of August in 1991, and you place it in that time period. That's when you say it was; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. I don't remember the precise date, so it was either the end of July or it was early August 1991.

Q. I don't remember either having granted you an interview, but I probably did. Possibly I did. So anyway, in that connection, I would like to ask you something. Do you have the footage of the interview between you and me that we could take a look at? It was your interview, so I assume you filmed it and have footage of that interview.

A. Footage --

Q. Or recording.

A. I don't have a personal recording in my personal possession, but it is within the archives of Sky Television.

Q. All right, Mr. van Lynden, but don't you think the best testimony about the interview would be the interview itself and then we wouldn't need your words or my words to explain the substance of what I was saying at the time during the interview?

A. I wouldn't argue with that, but I -- I mean, that's a question for ²⁶⁷⁵¹ the Court to bring that tape.

Q. All right. But you as a journalist, don't you think that it would be within the domain of fair play --

JUDGE MAY: This isn't a matter for the witness. If the tape is available, no doubt it can be made available. But his evidence, you will remember, really related to a conversation outside the main interview.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. You say in paragraph 3: "I interviewed Slobodan Milosevic. During the interview, he was highly critical of the Albanians in Kosovo."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this does not refer, Mr. May, to what Mr. van Lynden explained a moment ago as to what I said outside the interview, but it refers to the interview itself.

JUDGE MAY: To explain the position, you ought to know by now there is a distinction between a statement and oral evidence, and it was to the oral evidence to which I was referring. But let us not waste time on these sort of arguments. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, Mr. van Lynden, I assume you mean Albanian separatists in Kosovo or Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, not Albanians as such, per se.

A. As I remember it, it was a comment about the Albanians per se, because the question that I asked you was given the fact that you were demanding that the Serb minority in Croatia were granted certain rights, I then said, "But you are not granting those rights to the Albanian majority ²⁶⁷⁵² in Kosovo," and it was at that point that you said that these two matters could not be compared, that Kosovo was Serb, that it would always remain Serb, and that the position of the Albanians could not be compared to the position of the Serbs in Croatia. You didn't talk about -- as I recall, about Albanian separatists or Albanian terrorists, you just mentioned Albanians as a whole.

Q. Well, that can't be possible, because even in the year 2000, Mr. van Lynden, in the Socialist Party of Serbia, whose president I was, in the leadership, there was still Albanians there, even in the year 2000 let alone 1991. So these qualifications could not have referred to the Albanians as a whole but it could have referred exclusively to Albanian separatists. You don't know that?

JUDGE MAY: He's answered it.

THE WITNESS: I asked you a question. I remember it, of you talking about the Albanians as a whole, Mr. Milosevic. If you remember it in a different manner, I can't help that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I don't remember the interview at all, but I do know what I thought at the time, and I know what I think today, and I assume that you know that Yugoslavia was composed of nations, of ethnicities, and members of ethnic minorities as well, and that the Serbs in Croatia had the status of a nation, as they did in Yugoslavia and in Croatia and according to the Croatian constitution, whereas the Albanians had the status of a national minority or a nationality because they had their matrix state in Albania. Was that the case or not, Mr. van Lynden? ²⁶⁷⁵³

A. That may well have been the case, but we are referring here to a comment you made in an interview with me in 1999 in which you spoke about the Albanians.

Q. In 1991, the Albanians were a national minority in Yugoslavia and in Serbia, both pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia and the constitution of Serbia. And I assume that you know that very well, because you're a well-informed journalist.

A. I'm aware of that.

Q. And then you go on to say that after the interview I said that the Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia, and here you quote, "the Vatican papists." Never in my life have I used the term "papist" so I don't know how that term came to be used and I don't think you remember me having used the word "papist" at all.

A. That is how I recall it.

Q. You mentioned a moment ago that I said that after the break-up of Yugoslavia that Genscher and the Vatican were behind the break-up of Yugoslavia. Is that right? That's what you said a moment ago.

A. [Previous translation continues]... together. You mentioned a German Fourth Reich and you mentioned Islamic fundamentalists, all in the same sentence, and said that this was a form of conspiracy against the Serb people.

Q. You mentioned Genscher in your explanations. Isn't that right?

A. You mentioned Genscher and I was quoting you as I remember it.

Q. Very well. So you say that I mentioned Genscher; is that it?

A. Yes. ²⁶⁷⁵⁴

Q. Well, I have here a report from an open television programme, and I asked the Slovenian president, Milan Kucan, a question in that regard, who took part in that particular television programme, and it quotes part of a statement made by the present Croatian president, Stjepan Mesic. Literally I'm reading you the quotation verbatim: "The idea on the break-up of Yugoslavia I wish to convey to those who had the strongest influence on its destiny; Genscher and the Pope. With Genscher I had a meeting three times, and he enabled me to have contacts with the Holy See. The Pope and Genscher agreed with the complete break-up of Yugoslavia." That's what Mesic said at the time in a television broadcast on the 8th of November, 1995, in which Milan Kucan took part as well as some other individuals.

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. As you know quite well the witness cannot be asked general questions of that nature unless he has some connection with it.

Have you ever come across, Baron, this interview of what Mr. Mesic said?

THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You used the term "papist" as if I had used it; is that right? As far as I know, that expression is in usage in Great Britain. This is a term I never used.

A. We spoke English with each other, Mr. Milosevic, as you speak ^{26755 BLANK PAGE 26756} excellent English, and that is what I remember you saying.

Q. I have to tell you, Mr. van Lynden, that that is not correct. In fact, I never said anything derogatory about Catholics, and I certainly wouldn't have called them papists.

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that. He says -- you apparently have no recollection of the conversation; he says that's his recollection. We will have to consider the significance of the evidence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you say, this meant, as you say in your statement, that the war was being waged in predominantly Muslim areas and also in Kosovo, namely, parts of Bosnia and Kosovo; is that right? That is what it says here: "This suggested to me that his ultimate goal was to take the war into predominantly Muslim areas, namely, parts of Bosnia and Kosovo."

A. That was the conclusion that I and my two local producers, one of whom is Serb, came to, yes.

Q. What kind of war in Kosovo in 1991 could have been mentioned at all?

A. It wasn't a question of it happening in 1991 but that we expected it to follow the war in Croatia, and it did.

Q. Tell me: This was, you say, in July or beginning of August 1991. What kind of war could have been mentioned in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Because the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina started in the spring of 1992.

A. That's what I just said, that it would follow. It was an indication to us that war would follow the war that was then being waged in Croatia. And that's what happened. A year later, the war in Bosnia ²⁶⁷⁵⁷ broke out, and later on still, in Kosovo. So we were correct in our analysis.

Q. Do you have any idea how the war in Bosnia came about?

A. I have some idea, yes, and some personal opinions also.

Q. Did you keep any kind of notes of this conversation? You recorded the interview which you don't have, but I assume we can find it. And then you testify here about a conversation that we had 12 years ago, and from that conversation, you concluded that the war would spread to Bosnia and Kosovo, and you did that in July 1991. Is that what you're claiming, Mr. van Lynden?

A. Well, it was an indication to us that this might well happen, yes.

Q. Tell me, please, who did you arrange the interview with me with?

A. It was arranged by my local producers.

Q. And who was present during this conversation of ours that you're describing in this way?

A. As I remember, we had two television crews, one from Sky News and one from Belgrade television, because the interview was also shown on Belgrade television. And in fact, large parts of it were published on the front page of papers like Politika the next day. I'm also slightly surprised that you have absolutely no recollection, Mr. Milosevic, because I was informed it was the first interview you gave to a Western journalist. And certainly the two local producers were with us afterwards.

I can -- in my remembrance, at the end of the interview you said, "Let's let the technicians deal with the cameras, we will go into a ²⁶⁷⁵⁸ different room." And you also expressed your surprise that while I had been firm in my questioning, I had not been impolite, and to which I think my reply was I was not Oriana Falacci, an Italian journalist well-known for being extremely impolite to political leaders when she interviews them.

Q. I've read many interviews by Oriana Falacci. I didn't notice that she was impolite. She was a great journalist.

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All these people who were present there could confirm, then, what you are claiming regarding our conversation; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me -- let us move on to another topic. You spoke about the shelling of Markale, didn't you?

A. I was not in Sarajevo when that happened. I have already told the Court that I was in Central Bosnia at that time.

Q. Yes. But you say that a senior member of Karadzic's staff in February 1994, shortly after the Markale shelling, told me that Seselj this visited Pale. You say that a senior official told you that. Now, who is that senior official? What is his name?

A. I can't remember his name, but I believe that he functioned as a sort of Chief of Staff for Dr. Karadzic.

Q. You speak about an event in the bread line, in paragraph 20, and you say that the Bosnian Serbs claim that the Bosnian forces had opened fire at their own people after the shelling in 1992, a notorious incident ²⁶⁷⁵⁹ when civilians in Sarajevo were shelled waiting to collect bread. Is that right? And you say that that is what the Bosnian Serbs claimed.

A. That's correct. That's what the Bosnian Serbs claimed. I can say one other thing, that I met Dr. Karadzic immediately after the Markale bombing, and he then also claimed that this had been done by the Bosnians rather than by Karadzic's forces.

Q. You say in the very next paragraph, I know that that is what the Serbs claimed and that there were many indications that this was a frame-up to blame the Serbs, but already in the next paragraph you say that another person who made such a claim was General Sir Michael Rose, who just before he left Bosnia in an interview with a BBC journalist, John Simpson, in a programme titled Panorama, inferred that some of his senior staff thought that the BiH had shot at their own people. Is that right?

A. That is my remembrance of General Rose's comments to John Simpson.

Q. So it wasn't only that such claims were made on the Serb side, that is, that this had been done by the Muslim side, but General Rose also said that, and he had spent quite a long time in Bosnia-Herzegovina as force commander; isn't that right?

A. Yes. He'd come to the end of his tenure, one-year tenure as commander of UNPROFOR. He didn't say it outright. He inferred that some of his senior staff thought that it was possible or maybe likely that there had been instances of the Bosnians shooting at their own people.

Q. There was quite a lot of information about that. Are you familiar with those data?

A. I have never -- I have never seen concrete proof from UNPROFOR, ²⁶⁷⁶⁰ despite repeated requests for it, that this indeed occurred. And I have spoken to a number of other people who were in UNPROFOR a lot longer than General Rose who believe that it never happened.

Q. Very well. We will have occasion to consider the data about this some other time. But tell me, please, you describe Milan Martic's visit to Republika Srpska. Did your own cameramen film the review prepared for Martic or was this something that you borrowed from someone else? I haven't come across that in these CDs.

A. It was indeed filmed by our own cameramen, and I was personally present.

Q. Very well. What was Martic in those days?

A. I believe he styled himself the leader or the president of the Serbs in Croatia.

Q. He was president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; is that right?

A. That's the title he took, yes, as far as I can remember.

Q. Karadzic, in those days, was President of Republika Srpska; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, what is strange then if Martic comes to visit Karadzic and for Martic to inspect a guard prepared in his honour?

A. I never said it was strange. I just simply reported that it happened.

Q. What does it indicate, this story that Martic came to visit Pale and that he was received with honours and probably had talks after that ^{26761 BLANK PAGE 26762} with his collocutor Radovan Karadzic?

A. I haven't made any conclusions from that. I've simply said at that time the Bosnian Serbs got direct support, for instance, from Milan Martic, and we were told that Vojislav Seselj had also come to Pale to voice his support for that position. This was after all after NATO had issued a first ultimatum to the Bosnian Serb leadership.

Q. This was in 1994?

A. This was in February 1994, yes.

Q. As for Seselj's visit, you didn't film that, did you?

A. No, nor did I see him there.

Q. On what basis, then, are you claiming that Seselj was there at the time?

A. Because we were told by a senior member of Dr. Karadzic's staff.

Q. According to my information, the only time Seselj went to Pale was to extend support to the citizens of Republika Srpska when NATO bombed their positions in the environs of Gorazde.

A. Then your information differs from mine.

Q. In January, there was a rally of the Serbian Radical Party which lasted several days, and in February and March, sessions of the Assembly of Serbia attended by Seselj who was a deputy at the time, so that at that date he could not have been at Pale, or he shouldn't have been there.

A. Whether he should or shouldn't is not up for me to decide. And as far as I'm aware, the Serbian parliament doesn't meet during the weekends. As I said, I didn't see him, but we were told by a senior member of Karadzic's staff that he had come. ²⁶⁷⁶³

Q. And when was this shelling around Gorazde? Do you recollect that? Do you remember when NATO bombed positions around Gorazde? Was that in 1993?

A. I certainly have a memory that in April 1994, there was what I believe was an attack by General Mladic's forces on Gorazde during which at least one forward air observer of the British SAS was killed, and there was bombing by NATO planes. I was not in Gorazde at the time. In fact, I was in Belgrade at the time. It was my last days in Serbia because I was then ordered to leave the country after your government decided to call me persona non grata for life.

Q. That's quite possible. In paragraph 5, you say that in 1991, you met in Vukovar with a JNA officer, a certain Mladen Maric, captain first class of the Armoured Guards Brigade, and that you spent several days with him and his unit. Is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Exactly when that was?

A. The precise dates were something between the 10th and the 19th of November, 1991, something like that. It was a ten-day period. We spent one night, a whole night with his unit, slept with them, as I recall around 50 metres from Croat lines, and we visited the city on a daily basis and would find those troops. He was the highest officer, and there was a, as I recall, a Bosnian Muslim lieutenant with him, and a few others. And this was the unit that came under the command of what I think at the time was Major Sljivancanin -- excuse me if I get the pronunciation wrong, it's a difficult name. ²⁶⁷⁶⁴

Q. And according to the information that I received before you came to testify, and will you please just confirm it is correct; in end October 1991, you had a car accident. Is that so?

A. Could you repeat the date of the car accident?

Q. End October. I don't have the precise date. I don't have any earlier information about you. I only have what I received recently. In end October you had a car accident somewhere, and after that, you underwent treatment and spent that time in the Hyatt Hotel. You had a minor concussion or something like that.

A. This was at the beginning of October 1992. I had indeed an accident driving with my Land Rover from Hungary to Belgrade, and I think near a place called Novi Beograd I indeed had an accident. But that was 1992, not 1991.

Q. So that was in 1992. It was not at the time of the siege of Vukovar.

A. No. It was during the war in Bosnia.

Q. Tell me this, please, since you say that you spent there the last ten days. Does that mean that you were in Vukovar when it fell and that's the time where you were with that captain whom you mentioned?

A. We would have to get permission first from the Defence Ministry in Belgrade. This is something that my local producers did. We get further permission usually in a town called Sid, and then drive on via Tovarnik and a place called Oriolik before turning into Vukovar. Then we were with this unit. We would usually leave Belgrade early in the morning and we would return to Belgrade sometime in the afternoon to then edit our story ²⁶⁷⁶⁵ and send it to London. We didn't always succeed, but as I said, I think something like on the 12th or 13th of November we spent 48 hours in the town, and we were certainly there on a daily basis but not for 24 hours at a time, arriving in the morning, leaving in the afternoon, during the last couple of days of the fighting and after the fall of Vukovar.

Q. You say that you never saw him after that; is that correct?

A. No. I think I do say that I had dinner with him in Belgrade in December 1991, but after that, I never saw him again, no.

Q. All right. You never saw him again. You say in paragraph 6 of your statement: "I did not see him again, but my producer who was with us in Vukovar told me that on one day in June 1992, he had seen Maric while he was visiting the Lukavica barracks, the headquarters of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He added that Maric was present during combat operations on the Serb side but was still a member of the JNA, that is, the army of Yugoslavia." That's what it says here. "I am aware that Maric remained with the Serb army, refusing to transfer into the Bosnian Serb army."

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I don't know whether it's a translation matter, but at least the English transcript, as I hear it, does not match the English version of the statement. The reference to JNA in the English version of the statement reads "JNA-VJ." Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is precisely how I quoted it, "JNA," that is the army of Yugoslavia. And you can also put it differently, "JNA/VJ," which is how I have it here in the Serbian version, but I quoted every word exactly as it is written, and you can check that ²⁶⁷⁶⁶ on the transcripts.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thus he says that he had seen Maric visiting the Lukavica barracks and that he was present during combat operations on the Serb side. Now, would you please explain this: On what basis did you claim a moment ago that Maric, whom you say in your statement was described to your cameramen as visiting the Lukavica barracks, was at the head of some JNA unit taking part in some military operations in Sarajevo?

A. I think you've misunderstood the "whilst visiting." It was my producer who was visiting the Lukavica barracks. He found Maric was stationed there, and he spoke with Maric. I was not present during these conversations. He spoke to Maric, and Maric said that he was on operations there with the JNA. So it was the producer who was visiting, just to make that clear.

Q. All right. The producer was visiting. And now just on the basis of the presence of a JNA officer who originally comes from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you know that, don't you?

A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.

Q. So just based on the presence of a JNA officer who is originally from Bosnia and Herzegovina you define that as the presence of the regular Yugoslav army, JNA/VJ in Bosnia, is that so?

A. Yes. He was still a guards officer, and he never became an officer in the Bosnian Serb army. He was there as a guards officer of the JNA, and he had his men with him.

Q. How do you know that his men were with him or that he took part in ^{26767 BLANK PAGE 26768} any operations at all?

A. I'm only quoting my producer.

Q. So your producer collected all that information and gave it to you, including information about some sort of operation. What kind of operation did the JNA allegedly take part in in June 1992 in Lukavica, as you say here? What kind of operation was going on then?

A. As I have already told, I was in Sarajevo at the time, and this producer was based in Pale at the time, and this is what he told me.

Q. All right. So this is again something that your producer told you. We will not spend any more time on that.

Further on you speak about my statement concerning an embargo and the pressure to accept the peace plan; is that right?

A. Yes, in paragraph 8.

Q. Very well. Do you know that this embargo did not cover humanitarian aid?

A. That is as I recall it, yes.

Q. And are you aware that the purpose of the embargo was precisely to exert pressure for the peace plan to be accepted?

A. That is what you said at the time, yes. Whether I believe that is a different matter, but that's the reason you gave for it, yes.

Q. All right, then. Are you aware of the summit meeting in Athens where Radovan Karadzic signed this peace plan, but it was later rejected at the Assembly meeting of Republika Srpska?

A. Yes, of the Bosnian Serb parliament, as I recall. But I was not present at that meeting. I mean, of -- when the parliament rejected it. ²⁶⁷⁶⁹

Q. Never mind. There is enough information about that session. It was recorded from beginning to end. There's no need to discuss it further.

You say that several days after the introduction of the embargo you saw fuel tankers and trucks on this main road, travelling along that main road. I think you mentioned the area surrounding Bijeljina or something like that.

A. I mentioned being in Bijeljina. I saw those trucks crossing over at two different crossings, one at Zvornik and one to the north of Zvornik, and I saw trucks crossing into Bosnian Serb territory. And we noticed that because we were at least told that they were not meant to because there was meant to be an embargo. That's why we noticed it. We saw trucks crossing in 1992 but paid it little heed, but after this introduction of an embargo, we paid it more heed. But it wasn't the purpose. We hadn't gone to the border to see whether the embargo was working. We had gone to go to two places, Janja and Bijeljina, as I recall, to see the voting in the referendum on the decision of the Bosnian Serb Assembly to reject the peace plan that Karadzic, as you said, signed in Athens.

Q. Well, it's not what I say. He did sign this plan in Athens. So you were there at the time when the embargo had not yet been introduced?

A. My recollection is that the embargo had already been introduced.

Q. Well, then, since you remember that time and maybe we will be able to get more and more precise information about it on some other occasion, ²⁶⁷⁷⁰ do you remember that in relation to that embargo an International Monitoring Mission was deployed along the border of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska and that that mission was headed by a Swedish General, Bo Pellnas?

A. Yes. I don't remember the Swedish General, but I remember that some kind of an outside monitoring observer force was sent, yes.

Q. And do you know that this monitoring mission did not draw any conclusions about the embargo being violated? At least I have no information to that effect, while they were on the border all the time after the embargo was introduced, of course, not before. And their presence was made possible only through our goodwill. It was not something that was imposed on us. Because they had asked us, "Are you sincere about this?" We said, "Yes, of course." They said, "Can we monitor this?" We said, "Yes, of course." You are a journalist. You're supposed to know these things?

A. You would have to ask the UN. I cannot tell you what the UN thought or did not think.

Q. Very well. Then I shouldn't ask you about this. But if there was a monitoring mission who did their work with all earnestness, don't you suppose that they were able to establish --

JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a question for the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This witness testifies that this was all stage-managed. Unfortunately, it wasn't. ²⁶⁷⁷¹ In paragraph 9, you say that you had to buy fuel for your own cars on the black market in Belgrade; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Was it the case that somebody refused to sell you fuel or was it something that all the citizens of Serbia had to experience because we were under a blockade, under an embargo, suffering great shortages including the shortage of fuel? Are you aware of that?

A. Yes. But this began in 1991. It was more a question -- there were petrol pumps open with huge queues at them, and if you're working for a 24-hour news channel, you cannot spend hours and hours and hours queueing for fuel to try and get somewhere, because we wouldn't be able to do our work. That's why we decided to set up our own sort of fuel pump -- dump. And this dump was set up before the UN embargo against Yugoslavia.

Q. All right. But there were shortages. I only wanted to clear up one thing: Nobody targeted or discriminated against you specifically because you were foreigners; but on the contrary, there were queues everywhere and the citizens queued, whereas you didn't have time to. Is that the case?

A. Citizens indeed queued. Citizens also did the same thing that we did, which was to buy fuel on the black market.

Q. I only wanted to establish one thing: There was no discrimination against you as a journalist or a foreigner, but you were simply in a situation that was difficult all round in a country.

A. Certainly I was never discriminated upon at any petrol pump in Serbia. ²⁶⁷⁷²

Q. All right. And you are aware under those very hard sanctions that Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina found themselves under. There were no medicines, vaccines, there was no fuel, there were no inputs for the production of medicines either. Everything was blocked. Are you aware of that?

A. No, there were medicines. It wasn't that there was no medicine in the whole of Serbia, and it was also not a situation that there was no petrol in the whole of Serbia. There was a huge amount of smuggling going on from neighbouring countries, and that's how we got our petrol and diesel, I imagine, on the black market. Yes, there were shortages, certainly, and for some of the population it was very hard, but if you had your means and you had the money, you could get hold of anything.

Q. At any event, the sanctions were very strict, and it was very difficult to live under them at those times and trade with other countries was, in fact, clandestine, and it was a form of black marketeering, smuggling.

A. Yes, there was smuggling, yes.

Q. But of course we did manage to have the minimum quantities of medicines. We did have pharmaceutical factories, so we were able to do something, depending on the success of the smuggling, when it came to the inputs for the pharmaceutical industry and for our factories. I assume you know that too.

A. As I said, yes, there were medicines available.

Q. Tell me this now, please: In paragraph 10, you talk about some sort of regular meetings. So when you say "regular meetings," what do you ^{26773 BLANK PAGE 26774} mean, between Karadzic, Mladic, and myself, meetings that regularly took place, as you say, in Belgrade and on occasions in Pale. Now, what do you mean by these regular meetings?

A. Well, as you will be aware, Mr. Milosevic, I was not attending these meetings, but as I say, we were told -- I was told, my local producers were told by Serb journalists, by other sources, including the head of Belgrade television and a member of the foreign ministry about meetings between you, Dr. Karadzic, and General Mladic took place. And in September 1992, when I met Dr. Karadzic at the Intercontinental Hotel, he told me he was in Belgrade because he was seeing you. I didn't see General Mladic, by the way, at that meeting. I don't know if -- whether he was included.

Q. It is quite possible that when you saw Karadzic, it was when he came to see me, too, during his stay in Belgrade. But the point of my question was not whether I ever met Karadzic. Of course I did. Or whether I ever met Mladic. Of course I did. But you're talking about some sort of regular meetings. So what do you mean when you say "regular meetings"?

A. This is what we were told by the various sources. They wouldn't specify what that meant, whether you were seeing each other once every three days or once every one and a half months, but that there were meetings. That's what we were told.

Q. Well, there were meetings, but there couldn't have been regular meetings.

And you say sometimes, or you say, "and on occasions in Pale." ²⁶⁷⁷⁵ You know that I was at Pale only once, to attend an Assembly of Republika Srpska when the Vance Owen plan was on the agenda.

A. I'm aware that you visited Pale then. Again, I am quoting others.

Q. So when you say "in Pale," that cannot be correct at all, can it?

A. As I said, I'm quoting others, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. I understand that you're quoting others, but it would appear that those sources were not the most reliable. And you also say that in Pale, you had several meetings with Karadzic. Is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. I assume you had an interview with him.

A. Most of the time, no. These were just meetings to talk to each other. Dr. Karadzic very much wanted to do interviews directly with Sky News, either, if we had a satellite dish, by standing in front of the camera; or if we did not have a satellite dish, then via the telephone. We had meetings in which we simply had conversations about what was happening in Bosnia. I did, on occasion, go there also to ask him a few questions, but they weren't this kind of formal 40-minute, sit-down interviews. Those would be sessions that would last five or ten minutes when I just had a couple of questions to ask.

JUDGE MAY: You have five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. If I have just five more minutes, then I'm going to shorten all this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your presentation yesterday, you mentioned snipers. As far as I know, there were snipers on both sides. ²⁶⁷⁷⁶

A. I don't recall presenting anything yesterday, but, yes, there were snipers on both sides.

Q. I assume that it was read out from the summary, actually. The summary of your statement was read out. I'm not saying that you said this yesterday; you were quoted as having said that. From the previous statement, that's the note that I made of it. But anyway, the snipers existed on both sides. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

A. Yes.

Q. So on the Serb side, too, you saw shelters put up against snipers, barriers to protect the people from Muslim snipers; is that right?

A. Yes. That's in my statement.

Q. You also said yesterday or were quoted as saying yesterday, I can't remember which it was, but anyway, it was said that the snipers chose their own targets. Is that right?

A. What I said was that snipers in the positions that I was taken to in Grbavica told me that they chose their own targets, but what we also saw was that there were radios and that there were what we would call spotters or observers who were at different, I imagine higher locations, informing the snipers.

I have to add that I had never went with a unit on the other side, and therefore, I cannot describe how their snipers behaved, but they certainly had them.

Q. Well, I'm asking you that because a witness here claimed that that sniper fire from Serb positions was coordinated from the top echelons; whereas, what you said would make it appear different. ²⁶⁷⁷⁷ You mentioned having seen mortars at the -- by the Kosevo hospital; is that right?

A. I saw one mortar by the Kosevo hospital in July 1992, yes, but without any troops there, just the mortar. As I recall, an 82 or 81-millimetre mortar.

Q. Very well. You're a war reporter. You can differentiate between weapons. You saw a mortars by the Kosevo hospital, and it belonged to the Muslims, didn't it? It was a Muslim mortar.

A. It was a mortar which I imagine belonged to the Bosnian army, which was never a Muslim army in my opinion, because I always encountered Serbs and Croats in that army.

Q. Very well. Anyway, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, did they open fire? Do you know that they used the hospital as a shelter to or vantage point to open fire at the army of Republika Srpska from?

A. This was in July 1992 when there wasn't yet a Republika Srpska, first point. Secondly, no, I never saw that mortar actually fire. And I never saw fire emanating from the hospital terrain in Sarajevo. Certainly never at the state hospital where I spent many nights.

Q. All right. Just two more questions, please, if I may. I hope I'm going to have time for that, Mr. May.

You spoke about the conflict at the Dvor na Uni. You spoke about that towards the end of today's presentation, I believe.

A. I was asked about Dvor na Uni, yes.

Q. And who fell victim during that clash at Dvor na Uni?

A. I'm not sure whether you're referring to either the fighting in ²⁶⁷⁷⁸ the village of Struga or the incident in Dvor na Uni between Captain Dragan and the local population. If you're referring to what happened in Struga, as far as I can remember, four inhabitants of Struga, all Croat, were killed, and two Serb militiamen. If you're referring to the incident in Dvor na Uni itself, Captain Dragan told me that the ten Serbs that he had arrested had killed four Croat women who came from Struga.

Q. That's fine, and that's why I'm asking you. When did that take place, actually?

A. In July 1991.

Q. July 1991, you say. And then this was the final question you were asked and your final response during the examination-in-chief: You claim that Captain Dragan told you that I was in charge of all those operations. Is that right?

A. No. He never said that you were operationally in charge. What he told me was that you were the ultimate leader of the Serbs. And when I have asked that question to -- to Dr. Karadzic or General Mladic, they wouldn't have argued with that.

Q. All right. Very well. Okay. That I was the Serb occupying the highest position. That is not at issue, because I was president of the Republic of Serbia. But that's quite another matter, quite different from what I understood you to say in response to a question asked by the other side as to who was in charge of these operations and that Dragan told you that it was Milosevic who was in charge of them.

JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered. He said what -- he told you ^{26779 BLANK PAGE 26780} what Captain Dragan said.

Yes. Now -- now, what is -- Mr. Milosevic, what is the point you want to make? You've got your answer. He's told you what Dragan said about you. Now, what is your final point, and it is your final point.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, my question was precisely that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The year 1991, the month of July, is it true Mr. van Lynden that at that time there was the JNA presence as a legal army there, as a legitimate army of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and we're talking about July 1991, and you yourself said that they had come after the conflicts to set up a buffer zone there.

A. Yes, we're talking about 1991. Yes, the JNA was there as the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And yes, in the village of Struga they had come to set up a buffer after the fighting had stopped.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have -- no.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please just --

JUDGE MAY: You have exhausted your time. We have got well beyond the time that you should have been allow.

Have the amici any questions?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I have about ten or 15 minutes of questions.

JUDGE MAY: Make a start then, please. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. This is a topic that I would like to broach to start off with, and ²⁶⁷⁸¹ I have questions in that regard, and that's the one I would need most time for. But perhaps I could start with somebody else first up to the break and then carry on.

Baron, when you spoke about the hospital and what you did from the roof of the hospital, in paragraph 12 you said that with a cameraman and sound man, you would record from the top building of the hospital and from a sheltered place you would watch the fire across the city coming from both sides of the hospital. So at that time, there were no operations vis-a-vis you who were conducting your -- doing your job there. And I'm referring to paragraph 12.

A. I should just add, Your Honours, I was never on the roof. That would not have been a very sensible place to be. I was on the top floor of the hospital.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "operations vis-a-vis you." What do you mean by "operations"?

Q. At that point in time, was there firing at the hospital from any side? That's what I wanted to ask you; was the hospital fired at from any side while you were up there?

A. Yes, quite regularly the hospital was fired at while we were in the building.

Q. In the next sentence, you say the cameraman and sound man would swap sides according to the pattern of fire in order to record it. Does that mean with respect to the fire opened at the hospital, targeting the hospital?

A. No, it does not, because you cannot -- it's very, very difficult ²⁶⁷⁸² to film anyway. No. This is talking about filming shelling of either the eastern or western halves of Sarajevo. And if we felt that it was heavier in the east, then the cameraman would go to the side of the building that faced towards that direction. That's what it's a reference to.

Q. But at any case, in that particular point -- at that particular point in time it wasn't the hospital that was targeted by this fire.

A. The hospital would also be hit, but it wasn't -- filming shelling, a television filming of shelling is incredibly difficult, because artillery shelling you don't see. It is much easier when it is multiple rocket launcher fire because you can see the rockets, but you can't see the artillery shell. And one shell lands there, and if the other shell lands there, you may still be filming. You can only start filming when the first shell has landed. It's a complicated thing. Therefore, to film a single shot or a couple of rounds coming into the hospital building would be completely impossible.

Apart from that, I have to say that at any time that I was in the building, the only time that it was hit by a heavier shell was when it was hit by what I think - what we think - was a tank shell. But at that time I was in the basement, waiting to take the lift up to the higher floors. So the only fire that I witnessed when on the upper floors was of lower-calibre fire.

Q. Just tell me this, please: While you were in the building, new casualties kept coming in, as you say in paragraph 13. Now, during those points in time while you were there and the hospital was hit, did anybody fall casualty while you were there? ²⁶⁷⁸³

A. I do recall two people were wounded inside the hospital at a lower floor when I was on the upper floor, but we only heard about that later. I don't recall either of them being seriously hurt, but those were people working on the lower floors. All the upper floors of the hospital had been evacuated, and the only people residing on the top floor was the Sky News crew. But yes, there were casualties there, and I was informed that prior to my arrival others had been hit inside the hospital building.

JUDGE MAY: Would that be a convenient moment, Mr. Tapuskovic? Very well. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic. We understand that you've been taken unwell. If that's right, you can leave while we conclude this witness. Do you want to leave?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. Mr. May, you know full well that for many months now I have no conditions to rest, and it's just a question of increased blood pressure due to fatigue. I don't believe I'm ill. It's simply this fatigue that contributes to higher blood pressure, that's all.

JUDGE MAY: We will finish the witness. Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Q. Witness, I was asking you those things a moment ago because there are two other statements that you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal in 2001 and 2002; is that right?

A. That's correct. Excuse me. That's correct. ²⁶⁷⁸⁴

Q. I asked the Prosecution if they would be kind enough to give you copies in front of you so that I might ask for a few explanations from you for the benefit of Their Honours.

In this first statement from 2001, it is the chapter headed "Shelling of Hospitals." And you said here, in the middle of that chapter, third paragraph from the end: "I am aware of the allegation that the hospital was shelled only because the Bosnians used it as a sniping position, though I cannot categorically say that that was not the case." Is that right?

A. I don't see that in the third paragraph.

Q. Fifth paragraph in this chapter.

A. Yes. I stand by what I told the investigator at the time.

Q. Thank you. And in the chapter "Shelling of Civilian Emergency Services," and when the building where the firemen were extinguishing the fire is mentioned, in the third paragraph, somewhere in the middle you say: "I saw that the firemen were managing to put the fire out in a part of the building. However, the Serb gunners succeeded in setting another part alight. Thought we cannot exclude the possibility that ABiH snipers were using this building, this attack cannot be considered a justifiable military action."

A. Firstly, we asked people living -- living in the apartment whether this building had been used for any military purposes whatsoever that could have given rise to this building coming under attack. We were told by those people that it had not been.

And I think I should point out to the Court that civilians living ^{26785 BLANK PAGE 26786} in Sarajevo by that stage realised full well that if a building was used that it could come under attack and what the consequences for their property would be. So I cannot exclude it. I asked the questions. We also went to UNPROFOR and asked them, after this incident, whether they had seen or whether either any of their forces or observers had noted any fire coming from this building being directed toward Serb lines, and they said they had not.

The third thing that made me feel that this was a very odd incident indeed was that only incendiary bullets were used. Now, in any kind of normal military engagement, certainly one where both sides were fighting at each other, you would have all sorts of calibre of weapons being used. On this occasion, the only fire that I saw hitting this apartment block was of incendiary bullets. Therefore, I felt it was a direct attack on a civilian target.

Q. Thank you. And did you hear from UNPROFOR representatives, the officers in the first place, that in some cases UNPROFOR bases were used in such a way that close to those bases certain armed formations would be positioned, armed formations of the BiH army who would open fire on Serb positions from there? Had you heard of any provocations from the city of Sarajevo towards those that were besieging Sarajevo? Did you hear any such reports?

A. I do not remember any UNPROFOR officer or spokesman telling me that during my time in Sarajevo.

Q. Thank you. Baron, could you please look at your statement of 2002, the chapter dealing with Vukovar. You have already referred to it ²⁶⁷⁸⁷ in the examination-in-chief. Now, could you please look at the second paragraph of that chapter, somewhere in the middle. Speaking about Vukovar you said the following: "Sometimes the JNA would take us in armoured vehicles. Sometimes we would use our own vehicles, but more frequently the latter. Only towards the fall of Vukovar did we get good access is to Vukovar through the Guards Unit of the JNA."

Is that right? Does that mean that the Yugoslav People's Army was ready to give you full access to the events taking place just prior to the fall of Vukovar?

A. It depended on which part of the Yugoslav army you contacted. We had days that we actually met a general of the Yugoslav army outside of Vukovar who gave us permission to go in and that when we arrived in a small village called Oriolik, there would be some Commissar from the Yugoslav army who would not allow us to go any further and sent us back. We nearly always had to get permission first from the Ministry of Defence in Belgrade, then in Sid, and then it just depended who you ran into. When I said that we got better access towards the end, it was because we were facilitated by those officers in the Guards Unit once we made it into Vukovar. But getting into Vukovar, every day you didn't know, even if you had permission, whether you would get in or not.

Q. But in any event, just before the fall of Vukovar, you could -- you had full insight into the developments in Vukovar?

A. I wouldn't say I had full insight. I never saw the operational maps on the Yugoslav army side. I of course didn't have any contact with ²⁶⁷⁸⁸ the Croatian side whatsoever. We tried to have as full an insight by going into the town and as I also explained already to the Court, on one night we spent a night sleeping with the guard soldiers some 50 metres from Croat lines which, I should add, was pretty dangerous. So we tried to get as full an insight as possible, but a complete insight, no, of course not.

Q. I understand that, but two paragraphs lower down, you refer to a captain of the Guards Unit who complained to you that the JNA was having two many casualties in that area. Is that right?

A. Yes. This was Mladen Maric.

Q. And is what you say in the next paragraph at the end of it also true, that when you entered the town there were mines everywhere, even in the centre of town? Is that right?

A. Yes, and we filmed them being cleared by soldiers of the JNA after the town had -- yes. So we encountered minefields in the centre of town, yes.

Q. And also is the following correct that you stated at the end of the next paragraph: "Together with the army, we went on a trip outside Vukovar where the Croats surrendered. This group of Croatians were not in uniform. As they came out, each man laid down his arms, whatever he had. They were then frisked and led to buses organised by the JNA. There was no jeering or shouting. Some of the Croats were crying, some were trying to keep their heads held high."

Do you remember that scene?

A. Yes. And that story is in the hands of the Tribunal. This wasn't ²⁶⁷⁸⁹ just soldiers. I should say there was civilians as well. There were women, all the people coming out of Vukovar. There were several thousand people walking out of Vukovar, but that scene is correct, yes.

Q. There were civilians from whom weapons were seized, among others; is that right?

A. Some of the -- they were all in civilian clothing. Some of them had weaponry, some of them did not. There were also old women.

Q. Thank you. Thank you. Then we come to the next paragraph where you say in the last sentence: "We saw a huge mass of people leaving. They were all civilians. The JNA were guarding them, protecting them from getting harassed by the Serb paramilitary units. Did you see that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you see what it says towards the end of your statement: "For a while after that, buses arrived to evacuate the remaining Croats. We accompanied the convoy as far as Sremska Mitrovica. I remember that the JNA accused the Croatian forces outside Vukovar of shooting at this convoy. The convoy spent the night in Sremska Mitrovica and the next day via Bosnia it went off to Croatia." Is that also true?

A. Yes.

Q. Just one more point in connection with Karadzic. Today during your examination-in-chief, you said, and this is your first statement, the chapter dealing with Karadzic where you explain the reference that you made to the Berlin Wall. You said that this was a conversation that you had with him in September 1992.

Was that the conversation when he showed you the maps? ²⁶⁷⁹⁰

A. There were various conversations in which he showed me the maps. This was held in his office, this meeting, when he spoke about the Berlin Wall. We had generally meetings within his office, but we also had one meeting at the headquarters of the television in Pale.

Q. And do you recall that when there was a discussion as to the ownership of the Serbs, was it stated that according to the cadastre, according to official documents which are the only things that can prove right of ownership -- this was not a question of the nation but the cadastre, according to which 65 per cent of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the ownership of Serbs. Was that mentioned?

A. Quite possibly, but I don't recall that he used the word "cadastre," no.

Q. My last question: As you said that there was a reference to the Berlin Wall, which is, of course, quite inappropriate civilisation-wise, but you spoke about another meeting in September 1992 and the maps that were shown on that occasion. But on that occasion there was no mention of the Berlin Wall. I don't know whether that was the same meeting, I'd like you to explain that, but the last sentence, if you look at the last paragraph of the second statement, "Command Control..." it says that: "He said that he wanted Yugoslavia because it was a country for the life of all Serbs. He was not talking about any separation or division. He was saying that he favoured or that he wanted representatives of other peoples to move away but that he wanted Yugoslavia as it was a country enabling life for everyone. And on another occasion, he spoke about the partition of Sarajevo." ^{26791 BLANK PAGE 26792} Is what you said here correct? And that would be my last question.

A. You're jumping from one statement to another very, very quickly, so excuse me if I just read it now.

Yes, with Yugoslavia being defined as a Greater Serbia, a state that did not have any Croats, Muslims, or anything else in it.

Q. But, Baron, that doesn't -- that's not stated in your statement, because if he had said that, surely you would have said so. What you're saying now cannot be found in your statement. How can you explain that, that you never mentioned the word "Greater Serbia," on that occasion? Because that would be very important for the investigators and for drawing any or making any determinations about anything.

A. Well, what I said was that the enclaves were unacceptable and that they had to become part of Serb territory without the inhabitants of those enclaves staying. So in that sense, I mean a Greater Serbia. I mean, those are my words. It means all the Serb territories should be together. That, to him, meant Yugoslavia in the sense that you see it there; that Yugoslavia was a state for all the Serbs to live in, not the Yugoslavia of Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, and Serbs -- Montenegrins and Serbs.

Q. Your Honours, paragraph 19, if I may refer to it, where you speak about uniforms.

A. Which statement? Which statement?

Q. Your last statement, Witness, in 2003, paragraph 40. You said here -- you corrected yourself, and you said: "In my first statement, I referred to the uniforms worn by these soldiers as ²⁶⁷⁹³ being the same kind of uniform as the Yugoslav army wore the previous year. They were JNA uniforms as worn by the JNA that I saw during the fighting in Croatia."

A. Can you tell me which paragraph you're reading from, as this has only just been handed to me. Which paragraph?

Q. It is paragraph 40.

A. Okay. Thank you.

Q. You were referring to the uniforms you saw worn by the JNA in Vukovar where you had been a year before, but you said at the end that the Red Star had been replaced with a Serbian tricoloured cap badge. So from the moment you followed events in Bosnia, there were no longer JNA uniforms but these other uniforms were worn. Isn't that right?

A. No. The uniform was the same, the cap badge was different. All the ranks were the same, everything was the same apart from the cap badge.

Q. And the cap itself, was it the same? Was it completely different, a completely different cap specific only to the army of Republika Srpska? For example, General Mladic, what kind of cap did he wear?

A. Going back to 1992, he wore JNA uniform. He changed it, or they changed it later on, but that was only later on. In 1992 they were still wearing JNA uniforms. In you check, you'll find that's the case.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any re-examination?

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

Q. You said that Sky News was no longer broadcast in Serbia following ²⁶⁷⁹⁴ a decision to close it down. When was that?

A. Well, Sky News wasn't closed down. It was decided by the Serb authorities no longer to broadcast Sky News 12 hours a day on the third channel.

Q. Yes.

A. At some stage in 1992. I'm not aware of any precise date, but as far as I can remember, it was at the beginning or in the spring of 1992.

Q. It was suggested to you that your evidence on the subject of the snipers operating from Grbavica was inconsistent with the notion that their operations were coordinated from the top levels of the Bosnian Serb army. Were these soldiers wearing uniforms?

A. Yes, most of them were.

Q. How did you gain access to them?

A. Through company or battalion commanders.

Q. How did you make contact with those company or battalion commanders?

A. After meeting General Mladic and after he had given his accord that I could visit military units under his command on the various front lines around Sarajevo.

Q. Were you accompanied by anyone when you spoke to the company or battalion commanders?

A. Firstly, Dr. Karadzic had arranged that two Serb military policemen accompanied us as all times if we left Pale, and they did so. And at certain moments, although I don't think in 1992 but certainly in 1994, when I visited similar units in Grbavica, there was someone from the ²⁶⁷⁹⁵ Bosnian Serb government, usually some press officer of one sort or another who would accompany us.

Q. And indeed did those two military policemen arrange the contact between you and the company or battalion commanders?

A. I suspect that it was usually arranged beforehand from the headquarters in Pale, but they knew who to go to and who to contact.

Q. All right. Now, you were also taken to one of your statements where you said in effect that you were aware of a suggestion that fire by Bosnian Serb forces against the state hospital was in response to sniping from the hospital. Where did that suggestion come from? Where did you hear it?

A. From the Bosnian Serb side.

Q. Did you ever see in the state hospital forces of the Bosnian army in operation?

A. I only saw them being operated on. No, we never saw any armed soldiers from the Bosnian army in the hospital. And I should add one point to Your Honours here. As the correspondent, one is in charge of a team and, therefore, also in effect responsible for the people in that team. Of course in a war zone, you are always -- there is a certain threat that something may happen to one member of your team or another, but I was quite careful with the cameraman with whom I'd already worked for many years to check quite carefully through the top floors of that building to see if we found any empty cartridges, for instance, any kind of sign that the building had been used for military purposes, and we never did. ²⁶⁷⁹⁶

MR. IERACE: That completes re-examination, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Baron van Lynden, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, we've made some inquiries in relation to the contents of the CD that the accused has indicated was blank. I do apologise for that. It transpires, as I understand it, that Mr. Kay also received a blank CD. His was replaced. We were unaware that one was provided to the accused. However, I can indicate that the contents were identical to annex A being a CD annexed to the 92 bis (A) statement of the accused, so one way or another he has received the contents. Your Honour, also for the record, might I say that I have been assisted by Prashanthi Mahindaratne in the presentation of the evidence for this witness. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: We will have to look at that. You might also, Mr. Ierace, while you're at it, see if you can lay hands on the interview which the witness conducted with Mr. Milosevic.

MR. IERACE: Your Honour, the OTP does not possess a copy of that. We will need to seek it from the Sky News, Sky Television organisation.

JUDGE MAY: Maybe you could get it.

MR. IERACE: Yes, we will.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, given the accused's condition, we will consider what to do next. ²⁶⁷⁹⁷ Are there any matters, administrative matters that anybody wants to raise before any witness is called or anything like that?

MR. NICE: Not really, only to say that we have circulated by way of a memorandum, which I hope is acceptable, a list of rather abbreviated format, a list of the witnesses to be called and the witnesses who need not be prepared, and I only say that again so that the accused can understand what that piece of paper is. In particular, the list that tells him the witnesses need not be prepared identifies witnesses we do not now expect to have time to call and so he can stand down preparation for them. In light of his earlier observation about the strains on him of the work that he's having to do, I hope he will find this a helpful guide to his work.

We will provide, incidentally, the same list in a fuller form but it's subject to some editorial work at the moment and I want it to come to you in a final form as soon as can be. That's all.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you're feeling tired; is that right? What's your condition?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have told you, Mr. May. I have been tired for months now, and it's no news to you.

JUDGE MAY: Well, it may have been that it's the task which you've taken in hand which is proving so much for you. Have you considered that? Do you need assistance in it? This is a very considerable trial. If you had assistance, you wouldn't be feeling the strain so much, would you?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there is no assistance that ²⁶⁷⁹⁸ can help me listen to thousands of videotapes and half a million pages while being present here for examination-in-chief and cross-examination. I hope that is clear to you. As far as Mr. Nice's remark is concerned about some sort of memo, I don't know what memo he's talking about because I never received any. And as regards the blank CD being identical to the CD containing annex A, I wish to note that I received annex A when this witness started to testify, together with the background material that is usually given to me just before the testimony, and I was able to see it only last night.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. What I had in mind was that you should have legal representation, as you've been told from the very beginning, but that is a matter for you, and we'll have to decide what course is appropriate.

Anyway, we'll not continue today in the circumstances. The registrar has a point about an exhibit number. Let's deal with that.

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit you were -- Your Honour, the CD-ROM used by Mr. Milosevic will be Defence Exhibit 192 and Prosecution number is V000-0870 to 0871.

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.