Milosevic Transcript 2003-09-17

²⁶⁷⁹⁹

Wednesday, 17 September 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: We'll begin by giving the Chamber's oral ruling on the preparation and presentation of the Defence case. There is then a matter I want to deal with briefly in private session for a short period. Turning to the oral ruling, a written order will be available today and is authoritative.

The Trial Chamber has had to balance the need for the accused to have adequate time for the preparation of his case and the need for an expeditious trial. In this connection, the Trial Chamber has taken into consideration that the accused has the support of two legal associates. It is apparent from his cross-examination that he has been provided with detailed information. The Trial Chamber has also taken into consideration the fact that the trial has already taken 19 months. The accused has been in detention for two years and three months, during which time he's had the opportunity to consider and make preparations for his Defence. The Trial Chamber notes that the accused has elected to represent himself. While this cannot be allowed to give him an advantage, the Tribunal should provide appropriate logistical assistance to enable the accused to prepare his defence whilst in detention.

It is with these matters in mind that the Trial Chamber now gives its ruling concerning the preparation and presentation of the Defence case. ²⁶⁸⁰⁰ Preparation for the Defence case. The trial will be adjourned for three months between the close of the Prosecution case and the commencement of the Defence case to facilitate the accused in the preparation of his case. This adjournment will be subject to any hearing which the Trial Chamber may order. The accused, within six weeks of the close of the Prosecution case, shall file the following documents: The list of witnesses he intends to call, including the name of each witness, a summary of the facts on which each witness will testify, and an indication of whether the witness will testify in person or, pursuant to Rule 92 bis, by way of written statement or use of a transcript of testimony from other proceedings before the Tribunal. He shall also file the list of exhibits he intends to offer in his case and is obliged to serve on the Prosecutor copies of the exhibits so listed. The Trial Chamber will thereafter hold a Pre-Defence Conference for the following purposes: To review the accused's witness list and set the number of witnesses he'll be entitled to call; to determine the time which will be available to the accused to present his case; and to deal with such other matters as the Chamber considers appropriate for the purposes of facilitating the presentation of the accused's case, including practical arrangements to be made to bring Defence witnesses to the Tribunal, and for the accused to prepare for his examination-in-chief. I turn to the presentation of the Defence case. At the commencement of the Defence case, the accused shall be entitled to open his case in respect of all three indictments against him subject to a time limit to be imposed by the Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber may refuse to ²⁶⁸⁰¹ hear a witness whose name does not appear on the accused's list of witnesses. If the accused wishes to add any witnesses or exhibits to his witness list after the Pre-Defence Conference, he must apply to the Chamber for permission to do so, showing good cause. In the examination by the accused of his witnesses, he should bear in mind at all times that the Trial Chamber exercises control over the mode and order of interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence so as to assure it is effective for the ascertainment of truth and to avoid the needless consumption of time. The accused is reminded that his time will be limited and that he should focus on relevant areas of evidence. The accused is encouraged to avail himself of the provisions under Rule 92 bis with respect to the admission of evidence in written form. If he so desires, the accused may appear as a witness in his own defence. In this respect, he is reminded of annex A to the Chamber's order of the 19th of February, 2002 concerning his right of silence, the relevant parts of which will be attached to the written decision confirming these orders. I finish by dealing with practical arrangements for the preparation and presentation of the Defence case. The Registrar is hereby ordered to provide the accused with facilities in a privileged setting to confer with witnesses and others relevant to his defence, facilities in a privileged setting to review and work with documents and other material relevant to his defence, logistical support with regard to witnesses and facilities to prepare for the presentation of his case. That, as I say, is the order of the Trial Chamber, which will be in written form. ²⁶⁸⁰² There is a matter I wish to deal with now in private session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) ²⁶⁸⁰³ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Bauer.

MS. BAUER: The Prosecution --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to say that I categorically protest against this ruling of yours because it does not enable --

JUDGE MAY: No. No, this -- it wasn't a matter for debate or an invitation to argument. This was a ruling. Now, that is the ruling which we have made. Now, let us get on with the witnesses. If you would call the witness, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Every decision or ruling can be re-examined and abolished, and that is my request and demand, that it be rethought and --

JUDGE MAY: We've just given it. We're not going to abolish it, as you call it, now. We've just given it. If there comes a time when some matter has to be considered, we'll consider it, but that certainly ²⁶⁸⁰⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸⁰⁵ hasn't arisen at the moment.

Yes, Ms. Bauer.

MS. BAUER: Your Honours, the Prosecution is ready to call protective witness C-1160, pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-1160

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Bauer:

Q. Witness, by a court order, you have been granted the protective measures of facial distortion and have been assigned a pseudonym throughout the proceedings. You will be known as Witness C-1160 throughout your testimony.

The usher will show you now a piece of paper, and if you could confirm just with a simple yes or no answer whether this is your name and your personal details.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Witness C-1160, did you have the opportunity to review a statement that you gave to an ICTY investigator over the course of the last few days?

A. I did.

Q. And did you have the opportunity, in the presence of a ²⁶⁸⁰⁶ representative of the court, to sign a declaration affirming the statement's accuracy and truthfulness?

A. Yes.

MS. BAUER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would offer this statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the pseudonym sheet is 541 under seal, and the statement is 542.

MS. BAUER: I'll commence with the summary. The witness is of Croat ethnicity and was 32 years of age at the time of the events. He was a resident of Novi Sad in the Vojvodina and conducted business throughout the region of Eastern Slavonia and Vojvodina.

On 5th November 1991, the witness was arrested in Titov Vrabas, which is in Vojvodina, for no apparent reasons, other than driving a car with Croatian license plates. He was taken to the police station for interrogation. Subsequently he was transferred to the Novi Sad police station, where the interrogation continued. The witness was shocked by the amount of detailed background that the police had obviously gathered on him, including on his family and his exact movements over a substantial period of time. The witness was never informed about any allegations against him, nor were his rights ever read to him. After two full days of questioning, the police in civilian clothes took him to the Paragovo barracks in the Fruska Gora area. And for Your Honours' information, most of the locations are on a map in the map binder, Exhibit 326, tab 8, which was tendered with -- through Witness C-037. It's not in the Croatian atlas, I'm afraid; it is ²⁶⁸⁰⁷ a separate map that was tendered.

In the Paragovo barracks, he was received by a military policeman who routinely took his belongings and personal details.

THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. Thank you.

MS. BAUER: He was imprisoned in a tiny cell, which he shared with another eight to nine Croat detainees. Two JNA officers interrogated the witness the following day, again not giving him any reason for the arrest or detention. Afterwards, he was driven to another JNA headquarters, which he couldn't recognise at that time. The military policemen looked inside the van, he was capped, and discussed how they would slaughter him. As soon as the van drove off, the witness was terrified and thought they would kill him.

Shortly after that, the witness arrived at an agricultural complex in the village of Begejci. There another JNA military policeman received him and said that he had arrived at Logor camp. The same man threw the witness against a barbed wire fence and beat him until he was bloodied all over. The witness later heard that many guards at the camp, including this individual, had a criminal background and that they had been released at the outbreak of the war to serve the military police. When the witness entered the stables of this agricultural complex, he saw what he at first thought was cabbage covered with blankets. He found out that there were about 240 men and 20 women lying on the concrete floor. The witness recognised some of the men being from different parts of Eastern Slavonia. The prisoners were only allowed to stand when they were taken outside to sing the national -- Yugoslav ²⁶⁸⁰⁸ national anthem or during meals. Prisoners were provided with little food and it was of very poor quality. The hygienic conditions were dreadful and soon the camp suffered an outbreak of lice. Reflectors inside the stables were switched on throughout the night, making it impossible to sleep.

A certain JNA colonel or lieutenant colonel, Zivanovic, was in charge of the camp and came to see the detainees on two occasions. Every night a group of drunk military policemen would come to the stable and inflict on the detainees different forms of humiliation, including severe beatings. For instance, each prisoner had to say his prison number, and after which he would receive a baton blow on the head. On some nights, prisoners were forced to run over the bare bodies of other prisoners. Once the detainees had to participate in a mock execution, allegedly as revenge for a killed officer. For more than half an hour they were lined up against a wall and feared being shot any minute. A 60-year-old prisoner died following a particular severe beating. There was never any inquiry into the circumstances of his death.

The witness was called on several occasions for interrogations. The patterns used were always the same: There was a JNA officer asking questions with three or four military policemen standing guard. After each question and answer, the witness was punched by the military policemen, no matter what he answered. At one point the military policemen pretended to shoot the witness. After they had sufficiently intimidated the witness, the interrogation continued. Again, the witness was never told any reason for his detention nor what he was accused of. ²⁶⁸⁰⁹ He also did not see any judge or a lawyer during the whole time in his detention.

After about 20 days in detention, the ICRC came to register the prisoners and undertook to inform families. The military police guards in the camp hid ten prisoners during that time from the ICRC. Shortly after, the witness received a visit from his wife and daughter. A television team, whose cameraman was in a JNA uniform, filmed the day of the visit. Before the witness, however, met his visitors, he was beaten all the way up to the point and humiliated. On 10 December 1991, the witness was released after five weeks of detention in a town in Bosanski Samac. Approximately 630 mostly Croat prisoners from various detention camps were exchanged for around 129 Serb JNA officers. Only then did the witness find out that the alleged reason for his detention was that he was accused of being the main HDZ organiser in the Vojvodina, although he had never any involvement with the party movement. Furthermore, he learned that his family had made inquiries about his whereabouts immediately after he had disappeared. The authorities had lied and informed them that he had been released immediately.

That concludes the summary, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1160, up until November 1989, you had lived in Zagreb, when you got married with a lady from Novi Sad and you moved to ²⁶⁸¹⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸¹¹ live in Novi Sad; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true that in -- just before the war, you worked as a representative of a company and in that capacity you covered the area of Eastern Slavonia and the northern part of Serbia, or actually the whole of Vojvodina, as a kind of commercial representative; is that right? What company was it?

A. Mladinska Knjiga. (redacted)

(redacted)

A. In 1989 I tried to do that work.

Q. So you actually covered this part of Eastern Slavonia, an area where the conflicts started?

A. At that time, there were no such indications. The situation had not started to worsen.

Q. And when did it start to worsen?

A. When I could no longer cover that area. This occurred towards the end of 1990.

Q. So you say that it became much more difficult to travel and do your job. You say this on page 2, paragraph 5.

A. Serbs were crossing from Eastern Slavonia into Vojvodina, and of course then I could no longer be active in that area.

Q. Why were Serbs crossing from Eastern Slavonia to Vojvodina?

A. Allegedly conflicts were worsening after Borovo Naselje and they were being expelled. That is what was said. But I also learnt some other ²⁶⁸¹² things; that is, they didn't see anyone. People were simply awakened during the night and transported by buses across, and I learnt this talking to people as I was travelling around.

Q. So what you are saying that happened, that is, when Serbs were fleeing Eastern Slavonia, you say they did that without any cause.

A. I can't claim anything because I didn't see anything happening. I'm just telling you what I heard.

Q. Very well. In paragraph 5, page 2, you say that you then started to train a younger man, a Serb, to work with you. As far as I understand it, you needed him to be able to travel more easily; is that right?

A. I'm talking about this year, that when I was working and travelling, they would ask me where I came from and what I was, and problems had started so I felt that the circumstances were no longer regular.

Q. And that is why you hired that man.

A. Not just for that reason. I needed several people. But in any case, it would be easier for me. The new area that I was supposed to cover, I had my own marketing agency which mediated between the manufacturer of cosmetics and the consumers, and they requested several people. But when a new area was being covered, after the experiences I had had, I no longer dared travel alone.

Q. You yourself say that your work required that you hire several men.

A. Yes. That is what I just said. That is why I didn't dare go alone, because I had already experienced some unpleasantness in certain ²⁶⁸¹³ places, not everywhere.

Q. And can you tell us the name of this man?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this reveals the identity of the witness, he can tell us in private session.

JUDGE MAY: Let's go into private session, to be on the safe side.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session] ²⁶⁸¹⁴

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As far as I understand it, that man was with you when, at the beginning of November, as you say - it was probably the 5th of November, 1991 - when you were taken into custody to the Secretariat of the Interior in Vrbas; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, please: Where exactly were you taken in in Vrbas? Do you know in what part of town?

A. I don't know, but I was taken to the SUP. I was sitting in my car until he went inside to arrange a meeting so that we could start working there.

Q. I heard a moment ago from the summary read by Ms. Pack [sic] that the only reason that you were taken into custody was that you had Croatian license plates. Is that right? Is that what you're claiming?

A. No. I don't know the reason to this day. One of the assumptions was that it was because I was in a car with Croatian license plates. Of course, there were others in the same situation, and until then I had had no problems.

Q. But when you were taken into custody, as we heard from the summary, you were shocked to -- by the details they knew about you and your movement?

A. Just then.

Q. I see, just then. So I assume the only reason could not have been your license plates, but surely this information they had and -- that ²⁶⁸¹⁵ shocked you, because they knew what you had been doing and where you moved.

A. I wasn't shocked when I was taken in. But after the interview and interrogation, after I went to the camp itself, that is what I had in mind. I referred to the interrogation, which went on for two or three days.

Q. As you referred to the date of the 5th of November, 1991, was that the time when there was fighting around Vukovar and many other places in Eastern Slavonia and in Western Slavonia also?

A. At that time, according to my knowledge, there was a conflict in Vukovar.

Q. And do you know how far Vrbas is from the border with Croatia?

A. About 50-odd kilometres, roughly. I haven't been there for a long time.

Q. Very well. And on the second page, in paragraph 6, you stated that they didn't treat you badly at that time, they questioned you about what you were doing, what your work was, where you travelled, and things like that. Is that right?

I didn't hear the answer.

A. I said yes, that was true. What does it mean to treat me badly? I was probably exposed to regular procedure. By the end of the interrogation, I noticed changes; I wouldn't be given bread or water or anything, and this went on all day.

Q. What do you mean by "all day," when you say five hours later you were driven to Novi Sad? ²⁶⁸¹⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸¹⁷

A. I'm talking about Novi Sad, about the provincial SUP.

Q. And you were interrogated there too?

A. Yes. After Vrbas, which lasted so many hours, I was transported -- both of us, actually, were transported in this vehicle. The co-driver turned round to face us and the driver. Both of them were wearing police uniforms. And the one -- the co-driver was facing us with a pistol, and my car was being driven by a third policeman.

Q. Look at what you said on page 3, paragraph 1. You say that "I had the impression that they thought I was a spy because of the way that I travelled about." Is that what you stated?

A. Which paragraph? Which number paragraph?

Q. On page 3, first paragraph. Page 1 is numbered "2," so I don't want you to be confused by that.

MS. BAUER: If it is of assistance, it's paragraph 8.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of my travelling around, not because of the way I travelled around. That's what I meant.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I just have your statement in English. I wasn't given it in Serbo-Croatian. And you say, "I got the impression that they thought that I was a spy because of the way that I travelled about."

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, what is the -- what's the question, Mr. Milosevic?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you engage in collecting information?

A. No. ²⁶⁸¹⁸

Q. But give me, please, a precise answer. Did they consider you to be a spy or not?

A. That was what I thought. I just said what I thought at the time, because there was no reason for all this to happen to me. I couldn't see any reason.

Q. Does that mean that you drew the conclusion that you had been arrested because they considered you to be a spy?

A. I thought that that was probably the reason for questioning me, because the way in which they questioned me, the details they went into, endeavouring to draw information from me that I didn't have, that is why I said that, because that was my conclusion, that I thought -- that they thought I was a spy

Q. May I infer from that you don't believe that you were arrested because you were a Croat working there but because they suspected that you collected intelligence, in view of the fact that you moved around in your work?

A. I still think because -- that I was arrested because I was a Croat, because the colleague who worked with me and who was a Serb was released immediately; whereas, having met people who went through similar treatment as I did, I gathered that quite a number of Croats were rounded up mostly without cause. So there is every indication to believe that it was because I was a Croat.

Q. Do you know, in view of the fact that you lived in Novi Sad, how many Croats, how many thousands of Croats were living and working not just in Novi Sad but all over Vojvodina, without any one of them being in any ²⁶⁸¹⁹ special situation because he was a Croat? Why would you be in such a special situation if it was not because they suspected you of being a spy?

A. I knew very few Croats, nor did I have many business friends of that ethnicity. There were more of other ethnicities. So I don't know how the others were treated, other Croats.

Q. Very well. On page 3, paragraph 2, you said that you were questioned in Novi Sad until about 2.00 in the morning and that then you were taken home; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then they returned your car to you and you went home. Was that right?

A. No. It wasn't like that. I was questioned until late into the night. I was driven home with an order. They told me that I had come back -- that I had to come back by 10.00, I think it was, the next day.

Q. So you weren't arrested, since they drove you back home and told you to come back again by 10.00 in the morning; is that right?

A. If I had spent the whole day in the police station, how can I say that I wasn't arrested?

Q. But they just talked to you over there and then let you go home and told you to come back on your own. Nobody was taking you under any kind of coercion, but they were just telling you to come back in the morning, as you yourself say. Is that right?

A. Yes. But I don't know why I was released and my documents kept there. I had to go back. This may have been part of this whole examination, to see what I would do or -- how do I know what? ²⁶⁸²⁰

Q. Tell me, where did they talk to you in Novi Sad? In which building? In which state institution?

A. I think it was the provincial SUP. I don't really remember the building any more.

Q. And that morning in Novi Sad you were interviewed by a man whose name you don't know; is that right?

A. I don't know the name of any one of the investigators from Novi Sad.

Q. And you say that he was very well informed about where you -- the place of your birth in Croatia. I won't read it out because it's a small place and it could perhaps call in question your status of a protected witness. So he was extremely well-known, as you say -- well informed about your home town, that he knew everything about your movements there a week before, where you had gone before these events; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. On page 3 of your statement, paragraph 4, you say that "The JNA had withdrawn from the barracks," which is about 10 kilometres from your place of birth.

A. It handed -- it surrendered its weapons.

Q. It surrendered weapons because it was blocked by the National Guards Corps; is that right?

A. I don't know, I wasn't there, but what I just said I heard from others. And this was visible afterwards too.

Q. So this could be seen afterwards.

A. It was possible to move around in the area where the barracks ²⁶⁸²¹ used to be. Two days later I went to Novi Sad and I passed by there.

Q. All right. You say, [In English] "Which is 10 kilometres from --" [Interpretation] 10 kilometres from your home town. And then you say, [In English] "A gunfire. It was not a significant battle," [Interpretation] Then you say, [In English] "There were no deaths that I know of and the garrison was not small, because we were close to the Hungarian border. I was told by whoever was organising things there to make up a guard duty on one of the streets. It was a local arrangement." [Interpretation] All right. So in your town, where you say there had been some gunfire but minor gunfire, and you say it was not a significant battle, so only a week prior to your arrest somebody who had organised things there said that you should take up guard duty on one of the streets; is that right?

A. I had come from Zagreb. I came back in the morning, around 6.00, and I was asked to come to a meeting. And then I found out what was going on. We stood in front of the building for an entire day, all of that day. Of course, I was unarmed, I didn't have any weapons. And everything I mentioned is what I heard. It's not that I moved anywhere from the centre of town. This meant that defence of the town had been organised in this way. However, since I did not live there, in my home town, of course my friends did not really have much confidence in me. They didn't know what I thought and so on and so forth, so I was in a situation which required that I behave - I don't know - in some way that should have been -- whatever.

This statement that had to do with the barracks, that's the only ²⁶⁸²² ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸²³ thing I heard.

Q. Yes. But as far as I can see, you were told to take up some kind of guard duty; is that right?

A. We were assigned to various streets, wearing civilian clothes, and that day, if - I don't know - the army would get out of barracks and move towards Osijek and in this way attack the town -- well, I don't know.

Q. All right. You say that you yourself were not armed at that point in time, whereas some of the local men had some light weaponry; is that right?

A. Light weaponry in the sense of hunting guns and pistols. That's what I saw. The barrels that they referred to -- that's what they were saying. I'm just saying what I saw there.

Q. You also say -- well, you do not say that anybody made weapons of their own. You say I was not armed [In English] "although some of the locals had light weapons." [Interpretation] And when did you return to your family in Novi Sad?

A. Two days later. So the second day in the afternoon, that's when I left.

Q. So all of this in your home town lasted for less than two days.

A. Well, two days.

Q. And that was going on at the time when JNA soldiers were attacked in the vicinity of your town -- or rather, in your town and around your town; is that right?

A. I happened to be there at the moment when this was taking place.

Q. All right. Since you happened to be there at the moment when ²⁶⁸²⁴ this was taking place, as you put it yourself, you say that you took part in guard duty, although you were unarmed. Did you take part in the fighting, Mr. C-1160?

A. I did not take part in any kind of fighting.

Q. So you were just a person who was present at the time when this was happening.

A. That's right.

Q. You were on some kind of guard duty, though you were unarmed.

A. I was unarmed, whereas the man who was with me had a pistol, I think.

Q. Tell me, what was the name of the man who told you to take up guard duty and the man who was with you and who was armed? If you don't want to say this in open session, perhaps we could move into private session.

A. I can say it in private session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) ²⁶⁸²⁵ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. In view of your participation or, as you say, presence and partial participation in these developments, you were actually a temporary member of the National Guards Corps; is that right?

A. In case anything bad happened in my home town, of course I would have taken part, and it just so happened that I was in such a situation that I had to defend my home town in a way. According to the information that they gave me then, and all the things that could happen - my parents are there, my relatives, et cetera - I don't know how else I should have behaved.

Q. All right. I'm just establishing the facts here. However, you claim that the man who interrogated you knew everything about you, even what you wore during that fighting; is that right?

A. I said that, that he knew where I had been when all of those ²⁶⁸²⁶ things were taking place during that day or two that is being referred to. He knew that, yes.

Q. Is it true that at the time you wore a ZNG uniform?

A. I had not worn a uniform since 1988, which was the last time when I went to do some shooting -- training as a JNA reservist, when I was called up. Since then, I had not worn a uniform.

Q. You say that the man who spoke to you knew everything about what you did in your home town. I'm not going to mention the name. And he arrested you practically for nothing. That is what you say.

A. He knew the names of persons. He asked me about the names and the positions held by various people in the town. And of course, I didn't know what positions they held. I told him what happened a while before that, but I said that I was there for a very short period of time, and nobody really confided in me.

Q. Isn't it clear that nobody had arrested you because you were a Croat, because otherwise they would have arrested thousands of other Croats who then and all those years lived in Serbia, including Novi Sad, where you lived?

A. Well, I'd put it in a different way. If there was so much information about me, then also they could have known that I had not done a thing that would have caused me to be arrested.

Q. All right. In paragraph 6, also on page 3, you say that they treated you correctly, because they explained that they knew that your father-in-law was a retired JNA captain. Is that right?

A. That's what I thought. ²⁶⁸²⁷

Q. They also questioned you about the Ustashas, who had committed atrocities against women and children in Eastern Slavonia; is that right?

A. Well, the questions were the same, like those put to the other detainees. So it was my understanding that this was probably a system that had already been in place. I was asked because -- I mean, I was asked whether I knew about this man who wore a necklace made of children's fingers and also whether I knew about an Ustasha killing a baby in a cradle and putting dynamite or a shell into the baby's stomach. That's the kind of questions that were addressed to me.

Q. Did you know anything about these events?

A. Of course I didn't.

Q. Do you know anything about these things now, about the atrocities that were committed then?

A. I don't know about that even now.

Q. In the last paragraph on page 3, you say that they did not believe that you were innocent and that they tried to intimidate you by saying that they would send you to defend Serb houses in Papuk; is that right?

A. That's what they were telling me.

Q. Did you know that Serb houses in Papuk had been attacked?

A. That's what I heard from the interrogators, from the investigators.

Q. Who attacked these houses?

A. It was always presented in the same way, Ustashas, like previously. It was the Ustashas who attacked Serb houses in Papuk too. ²⁶⁸²⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸²⁹ That's the way they put it. I heard all of this from the investigators.

Q. You say that this was a place near the front line where it was believed that the Ustashas were killing Serbs. Is that what you stated?

A. I stated that this was at the front line, where the investigators believed, what I had said previously, that the Ustashas were attacking and killing Serbs. These are the words of the investigators. That's what I said.

Q. All right. But the town that you went to, was that on the front line actually?

A. I was told that the Ustashas were attacking Serb houses in Papuk, and I consider then that to be fighting, a front line. That's my interpretation. And where the front line actually was, I really do not know. As I said, I did not even know that this had been going on before I heard about it from the investigators.

Q. All right. Your participation in these activities of the National Guards Corps boils down to those two days only.

A. It wasn't the National Guards Corps. It was the defence of the town itself. So there were no uniforms. These were men in civilian clothes.

Q. All right. After the interrogation in Novi Sad, they took you in an unknown direction, you say, to a military facility that you did not know.

A. I was never there.

Q. Can you say where it is?

A. Well, I know where I was -- I mean, later on I found out. ²⁶⁸³⁰

Q. I didn't understand what you said. Where was it that you were?

A. A military facility near the -- I mean, after the provincial SUP. It's a military facility called Paragovo. I heard about that only later.

Q. Where is this military facility?

A. I was driven during the night, so Fruska Gora -- Paragovo-Fruska Gora. That's what they said to me. I did not check this. I did not look it up on a map or anything, so I cannot say.

Q. All right. You thought they were taking you to Papuk, and that is why you were very frightened; is that right?

A. Since the last threat before they took me away was that that's where they would take me, what else could I have thought?

Q. You say in your statement that they told you that they would take you to Papuk to defend Serb houses. Here in this summary that was read by Ms. Pack [sic] you say -- I do apologise. On the other side there are so many persons that are involved that I cannot remember all the names, Mr. May. They change so frequently.

So Ms. Bauer read, if I heard this correctly, that they were taking you to kill you.

A. I cannot describe all the things that go through a person's mind at moments like those, so everything I said was true. All of this was after the things I had experienced, so what else could I have thought?

Q. All right. If they told you that they were taking you to Papuk to defend the Serb houses there, and if that was a threat that they were addressing, so on the basis of what do you say that they threatened you that they would take you out and kill you? ²⁶⁸³¹

A. Is it sufficient to say that they would push me unarmed in front of troops? That is not something that is unheard of.

Q. They told you that they would take you to defend Serb houses. They did not say that they would take you out to kill you. Now, what you thought in your very own head, that they would take you out and kill you, that is not something that they said to you.

A. What they said to me, that they would take me to defend Serb houses, that is one of the sentences that they uttered, not to mention cannon fodder and other words they referred to. So this one sentence is not the only thing that said in -- it was not the only thing that led me to believe what I had thought at the time.

Q. Mr. 1160, I am not going into that, what you could have thought at the time or what you thought at the time. I just want to establish that not at a single point in time did they tell you that they were taking you out to kill you. Is that right?

A. The way in which they did all of this could not have led me to believe anything else.

Q. But they never said to you or threatened you that they were -- would take you out to kill you.

A. What you are saying now was during the period of questioning in Novi Sad, at the provincial SUP there. What followed were things that could not have been put in that way, and I explained this gradually, how things developed.

Q. All right. They took you to this military facility, and then they questioned you there as well. You say that you were questioned by a ²⁶⁸³² major and a captain; is that right?

A. At that moment, I can -- at this moment, rather, I can say that I do not know what the ranks were. One of them was a captain for sure; I know that. There were NCOs among them as well. There were different people.

Q. So they also had information about you; is that right?

A. Of course. Of course. I wrote the statement in the provincial SUP and the statement accompanied me wherever I went. And of course they had all this information available.

Q. And you say that the major put a series of questions of a military nature, and you say that he asked you about your own observations during your travels around Vojvodina; is that right?

A. For the most part, he asked me about arms. And actually, he wanted to see what I knew about weapons and other things, of course. It was one and the same thing that was asked about all the time. And later on they were probably trying to compare all these different statements.

Q. And so there you wrote the statements in your own hand, just as you had done in Novi Sad, right, where you were also questioned and interrogated.

A. I wrote the statements myself, yes.

Q. And you say you wrote out the statement covering five pages. What were those five pages about?

A. I wrote about everything, from my education and everything else. You could take 55 pages to write down your own history if you have a little imagination or if you have a talent for writing. ²⁶⁸³³

Q. All right. Now, without going into the details and talent for writing, which I'm sure you possess, let me ask you whether in those five pages, did you write anything about answers to questions that were asked you and matters relating to what you yourself call a series -- a lot of military-type questions, as you put it.

A. Well, I couldn't give them an answer because I knew nothing about any of that.

Q. All right. Fine, Mr. 1166 [as interpreted]. As far as I was able to gather from this statement of yours, you're a musician too, aren't you, alongside the job you also hold?

A. Well, for just one period, that period of time, I wasn't a musician nor did I earn money by playing music. During that time and also after the exchange.

Q. All right. But you said that you played in a well-known Zagreb band. Now, I don't want to ask about that, but what I do want to establish is what you said. You mentioned a major and a captain having questioned you and they even knew about that, about you being a member of the band. Is that right?

A. Well, I didn't play music during that period of time. They were just some guys playing at a party. That's what the captain told me.

Q. So he told you about that, did he, that you were a musician?

A. No, that they played music in front of some military facility.

Q. So they knew everything about you, and yet you say they arrested you for no reason.

A. Let me repeat: In view of the fact that they knew everything ²⁶⁸³⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸³⁵ about me, then they could have also known that I had done nothing to warrant my being arrested and ending up in a concentration camp.

Q. All right. But you were in a cell with another -- or with some other Croats, or rather, with one Croat. That's what you say. And he was the owner of some cafe in Zagreb; is that right?

A. I said I recognised a man who happened to be the owner of this cafe in Zagreb.

Q. And why had he been arrested? Did you learn of that?

A. Well, we couldn't talk amongst ourselves very much. I just learnt that he had -- drove a car there and he was arrested in Vojvodina.

Q. All right. But you say there were two other men from some village in Vojvodina who took place -- took part in rallies held against -- to protest against the mobilisation.

A. Well, these were all talks -- we had short conversations and chats, and that's what these people said. Now, they said that they had attended a rally to protest against the mobilisation, and when they were dispersing - that's what they told me, at least - that when they were dispersing and going home, they were all rounded up and brought there.

Q. All right. But you remember their names, then, and the place they came from in Vojvodina?

A. No, I don't remember that.

Q. So you don't know the place or their names?

A. No, I don't. I've forgotten. I don't know their names or the place.

Q. All right. Now, at around 2300 hours of that same day, you were ²⁶⁸³⁶ taken for interrogation once again, on a second occasion, and the major and the captain, as you claim on page 6, paragraph 2, they just interrogated you briefly, about half an hour; is that right?

A. Well, I was handing over that statement -- making the statement. That's why it lasted such a brief time.

Q. Yes. But I'm interested in the interview -- in the conversation. You say it lasted half an hour. What did you talk to them about on that occasion?

A. About the statement I had written.

Q. So what did you discuss.

A. Well, he analysed my statement.

Q. Do you remember any specific parts that you analysed from the statement, any portions of it?

A. No.

Q. And on that occasion, nobody beat you or mistreated you.

A. Not then, unless you consider mistreatment the fact that I was incarcerated in a cell. I did receive one blow at Paragovo when we were cleaning in front of the -- sweeping in front of the building.

Q. But I'm asking you about during the interview.

A. No, nothing happened during the interview.

Q. But you said that the captain was rough with you verbally, in his verbal address to you.

A. Well, that took -- that happened several times.

Q. Well, what happened?

A. Well, he would be nice to start off with and then would turn ugly ²⁶⁸³⁷ and so on. One man would be nice and the other man would be brutal or, rather, one would be well disposed towards you and the other would be rough.

Q. And you say that the next day you were transferred to Begejci, a place near Zrenjanin, the town of Zrenjanin; is that right?

A. I was driven off in the morning, and I think I say this in my statement, but let me repeat that, while I was being taken out of the building in Paragovo, I was told that as I was carrying something for breakfast, that I couldn't go back to have breakfast. So that was the last thing I heard. So once again, psychological pressure.

Q. Well, when they said that you didn't need breakfast - that's what you said, I think - that you understood that you were being taken off to be killed.

A. Well, I was driven off alone in a Black Maria with -- I think that's what the van is called, with small windows, and I was taken off by the warrant officer and four others, other policemen wearing the white belts, police belts.

Q. Well, these policemen with the white police belts, was their conduct correct and proper?

A. Well, if you -- if we take it that their shoving us in and pushing us around was direct and proper, then I suppose they were.

Q. I see. You now see that -- you say that the first time you were beaten was by a man called Zare and you said that that happened when you got to Begejci; is that right? What happened? Was it a centre for war prisoners or what in Begejci? ²⁶⁸³⁸

A. When the door opened, he made me bow my head and put my hands behind my back. So what could I have seen like that? He just told me that it wasn't a hotel and I don't know what else. What can I call it? Well, it turned out to be a concentration camp, in fact. And at that point in time he began beating me. He shoved me head into the wire.

Q. So you say that this military policeman, that actually he was a criminal who had been released from prison before the war broke out.

A. During the time I spent in that camp, one of the people who would come in - and there were five or six of them who came in - he was drunk, and he said he couldn't care less whether he was behind bars or behind a wire.

Q. So on the basis of that, you concluded that criminals had been released from prison to become military policemen; is that it?

A. Well, that might have been the case -- it might have been translated that way, but I do consider that they were criminals nonetheless. And what I said is that this was linked up. It was my assumption. I assumed that they had been doing prison sentences in prison and then had been trained as military policemen and reservists and transferred and that they were in fact serving their prison sentence by being these military policemen.

Q. So according to what Ms. Bauer read out, it is your assumption that they were criminals who had become military policemen; is that it?

A. Well, this man Zare, who beat me, was a policeman and he had scars on his face. I don't know how else to describe it. That's how I experienced the whole thing, anyway. Those were my impressions. ²⁶⁸³⁹

Q. Well, we can meet -- we come across various people with tattoos on them and they're not considered to be criminals. You said he had tattoos.

A. Well, he was a criminal, as far as I was concerned, judging by his conduct. It wasn't the first time he had behaved that way, or the last, I assume.

Q. Well, we can't know that, so let's not enter into those details. But that -- those were your conclusions and observations, but you had no actual information that somebody had turned criminals into military policemen, did you?

A. All I can say is this: I wrote my statement on the basis of my own experience and how I experienced that particular situation, so I don't have any confidential inside information of any kind, of course.

Q. All right, you don't have any information. But you remember another military policeman nicknamed Rambo; is that what you claim?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any information and knowledge about this man, Rambo, that he had a criminal record or anything of that kind?

A. I think that that's what Rambo himself said on one occasion.

Q. You think he told you that.

A. Well, I don't know who said this, but I think one of them said that they couldn't care less whether they were behind bars or behind wires, it was the same thing to them.

Q. So it was on the basis of that statement that you drew your conclusions. ²⁶⁸⁴⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸⁴¹

A. Well, yes. But a long time has gone by since then for me to be able to remember all the details. I just said what I remembered.

Q. All right, very well. But according to what you yourself say in Begejci, you were mostly beaten by an Albanian by the name of Krasniqi and a Croat called Mirko, but you don't know his last name, last name unknown; right?

A. I didn't know Mirko's surname, but I didn't say that they were the ones who beat me most. They did beat me, yes, amongst others.

Q. So this Albanian Krasniqi and this Mirko from Croatia, he was from Biljani Osijek [phoen]; that's right, isn't it?

A. Yes, that's right. And they were at the entrance to the shed or stable and they were standing between the military policemen and us. So if anybody had to go to the toilet or anything, they had to pass by these men. And one of them always had to be awake. And if any new detainees were brought in, both of them had to be there, and they were standing up, whereas we were lying down.

Q. But you recognised a certain man called Milas from Opatovci in Eastern Slavonia; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right, Stjepan Milas. He had a shop. And when I worked with cosmetics, he would purchase some cosmetics from me.

Q. All right. Now, just like this other man, Kruno Farkas, whom you mention, were they members of the Croatian National Guards Corps? They were, weren't they, Mr. 1160?

A. I learnt that Kruno was a member and that he was in Ilok at one point in time, but he was captured wearing civilian clothing leaving Ilok. ²⁶⁸⁴² As for Stjepan Milas, I think he was some functionary in his home town.

Q. Well, all right, then, but were the people who were arrested actually people who had fought within the ranks of the Croatian National Guard Corps? Amongst them -- by mistake they ranked you amongst them; is that right?

A. Of the 500 odd people at the end, some 20 -- approximately 20 people, I don't know the exact number, from the surroundings of Bileca, were in uniform of the Croatian National Guards. All the others were wearing civilian clothing.

Q. But you say of this man Farkas, that he was indeed a member of the Croatian National Guards Corps but that he withdrew wearing civilian clothing; is that right?

A. He was in that place, but I assume he was dressed like that, and I deduced this from what he said later on, in my conversation with him later on. He was organised in the defence of his town or village.

Q. All right. On page 8, paragraph 9, you claim that one day, as you yourself say, two black men were brought in, but you don't know where they were from nor did you know their names. Is that right?

A. I didn't know the names, but according to the rumours that went round in the camp, they were students from Sri Lanka who studied in Skopje somewhere. They were students in Skopje but had come to Belgrade to fetch some documents.

Q. As far as I understand it, they were some sort of foreign mercenaries; right? They were foreign mercenaries; is that right?

A. Well, when the military policemen came to that -- the stable, ²⁶⁸⁴³ they would say that two mercenaries -- two Croatian mercenaries had arrived, which means on the one hand we have this piece of information and, on the other, that other information.

Q. But the commander of the Croatian Guards -- National Guards and that group of ZNGs who were in the prison, the commander was a man named Grizbauer; is that right?

A. Grizbaum or Grizbauer, yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, what unit of the ZNG was it? Do you know? What ZNG unit was it?

A. I don't know what unit, what the unit's name was. All I do know is that they were from around Bileca.

Q. And do you know what part of the front they were captured on?

A. They said that they had taken part on an attack on a border hut somewhere and that they were surrounded and captured.

Q. So they attacked a military border hut, is that it?

A. Yes, that's what was said, that they had gone into action, into operation.

Q. And they said that somebody had betrayed them and that when they arrived they were surrounded -- found themselves surrounded and captured.

A. Yes. How else would I know that?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you should have in mind you have five minutes left now.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I understood it, Mr. May, that I began after half past 9.00. But I am sure you have more precise evidence. But I'll hurry along. ²⁶⁸⁴⁴

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So that was the battlefront that they were captured on, and an ambush -- you say they were betrayed, that nobody shot at them, that they were captured during an ambush and arrested; is that right?

A. Yes. I'm saying what I remember them having told me or having heard about the incident. Dogs were used to hunt them down, and one of the men was bitten by one of the dogs.

Q. Well, the frontier guards always have dogs with them. That's common knowledge.

A. Well, yes.

Q. Now, although you refer to this as a concentration camp, the prison in which the members of the National Guards Corps were incarcerated, that you nonetheless had medical care there, did you?

A. All I saw was a lady passing by wearing civilian clothes but a white coat over her clothes. She wasn't from the army. That's what I say. But later on there was a doctor in camp that was there with us, and I assume they knew who he was. But that medical care was very scant. All it meant was the bandaging of wounds, like that man who had been bitten by the guard dogs, and perhaps some tranquilisers were handed around. That's all, as far as I know.

Q. All right. Now, you wrote to your wife from Begejci and she in fact visited you with your daughter. She came to Begejci to visit you with your daughter; is that right?

A. Well, yes, when the Red Cross came. So the Red Cross wrote the letter, not me. ²⁶⁸⁴⁵

Q. All right. But she visited you, together with a cousin - I don't want to read her name out - and she tried to intervene with the warden, prison warden; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right, because they didn't know why I was being held there in the first place.

Q. And you say she was upset after talking to the warden. Did she tell you why she was upset?

A. Not then, but several months later when we were in Hungary.

Q. And did she say why she had been so upset?

A. She told me that she had learnt that I was the main organiser for the HDZ party in Vojvodina at the time.

Q. So that was what they believed. But you were exchanged on the 10th of December, 1991 in Bosanski Samac; isn't that right, Mr. 1160?

A. Yes.

Q. So how long did you spend in prison altogether and in the -- with the ZNG group?

A. I didn't hear the first part of your question.

Q. How long did you spend in prison altogether with that group of ZNG members?

A. It was a small group of about 20. I was there with some 500 civilians from Vukovar and the other places in Eastern Slavonia. Now, you keep insisting upon this group of ZNG members. I don't think it was a very important group of people or a large one.

Q. Yes. But you were -- an indictment was never raised against you in Yugoslavia, nor were you found guilty of anything. ²⁶⁸⁴⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸⁴⁷

A. No, I don't remember, except for traffic misdemeanours, traffic offences.

Q. And when did you last stay in Yugoslavia, actually? When were you last there?

A. What did you say? When was I in ...?

Q. When were you in Yugoslavia last?

A. In Yugoslavia. I see. Well, Yugoslavia, it's not called that any more, is it? So I don't know which Yugoslavia you mean.

Q. All right. Tell me this: After the war, did you continue to live in Novi Sad or did you go elsewhere? Did you stay with your wife, who is a native of Novi Sad, to live in Novi Sad or did you go anywhere else?

A. To Zagreb.

Q. So you didn't return to the area after that, did you, at any time?

A. I was there recently.

Q. Recently?

A. Yes, recently, on business.

Q. Were you there after 1991 -- or rather, when were you there first after 1991, after the events we discussed?

A. I was in Pozarevac with some people -- with a band, playing with a band.

Q. When was that?

A. Three years ago, three and a half years ago. I'm not quite sure. We were invited by the radio. ²⁶⁸⁴⁸

Q. To play on the radio?

A. No. We were called by Radio Pozarevac to play there.

Q. What year was that?

A. Well, I said; three years ago roughly.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic or Mr. Kay, do you have any questions?

MR. KAY: Your Honour, if some copying is done, it will be much quicker for this witness after the break.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. KAY: Five minutes.

JUDGE MAY: You know what the copying is, do you?

MR. KAY: Yes, I have it here, but mine has been written on by me and it's probably better to have clean copies.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn for twenty minutes. Witness C-1160, we're just going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution. Twenty minutes, please.

--- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Your Honours, during the break, a copy of a -- an additional statement was provided for Your Honours and the court. Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at the statement which is going to be produced for you. Have you got it in your hand? Can you see it's a ²⁶⁸⁴⁹ statement in your name? Don't mention your name. Can you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Can you tell us, first of all, when you made that statement?

A. I made that statement after the exchange, maybe some ten days after that.

Q. And who did you make that statement to?

A. I made that statement in my place of birth to the police.

Q. I want you to look at some of the details of this statement. First of all, in the first paragraph you can see that it states you were arrested by the police in Vojvodina. Is that right?

A. Two policemen were in civilian clothes who approached the car. Policemen or milicija.

Q. And that particular place, I think you've told us, is Titov Vrbas. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you refer to a provisional SUP, is it the SUP in Titov Vrbas where you were taken?

A. I'm referring to the provincial SUP of Novi Sad. That's how it was called. That was the full name of it.

Q. When we look at this statement, it says that you were taken to the provincial SUP.

A. From the SUP in Titov Vrbas, I was driven by car, as I have said, two of us, and then two men in civilian clothes, the driver and the co-driver with the pistol, and a third man in uniform was driving my car.

Q. When we've looked at your statement that was produced before the ²⁶⁸⁵⁰ court, we can see on page 2 of it, at paragraph 10 that when you were taken home, you were ordered to return at 7.00 in the following morning.

A. Yes.

Q. Is your evidence, then, that they left you alone with your family for that period of time at your home and that you returned voluntarily to the SUP some hours later?

A. All my things stayed behind in the SUP, my documents, the documents of my firm, my personal documents, and the car with advertising products, samples. So I couldn't do but go back. There was no other thing I could do but go back.

Q. In the statement before the court, it says in paragraph 7 that you were in that station, meaning the police station, and then you were driven to the SUP office in Novi Sad. That indicates that you were at two separate police stations, doesn't it, before you were transferred to the barracks?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. If we look at that other statement that I've put before you just a moment ago, at line 14 it says in that statement that you went from the provincial SUP to Paragovo.

A. Yes.

Q. In that statement, there's no mention of you being in the police station at Novi Sad at all.

A. I made a distinction. In Titov Vrbas the police station -- the SUP, I was taken there, and then the other one I called the provincial SUP, the one in Novi Sad. ²⁶⁸⁵¹

Q. In that statement, then, you refer to the provincial SUP but you don't refer to the police station at Titov Vrbas.

A. That statement was made -- I was just recounting the events as I knew them. It was a statement -- it was no special statement. Maybe I didn't understand your question.

Q. I'm asking you about this other statement that wasn't exhibited before the court, and in that statement it doesn't make a distinction between a police station at Titov Vrbas nor a police station at Novi Sad.

A. As far as I can remember, I didn't sign this statement, so I didn't read it. The man was writing it while I was talking, and that is probably why that is not indicated. But I'm sure that I said it.

Q. The man who took the statement, what was his job?

A. He was a policeman or an inspector or something like that.

Q. And was he there to listen to you and write down what you had to say?

A. I think that it went as follows: After my return from the camp, it was stated that I should go and make a statement. I reported to a police station, people who were responsible for this, and I made that statement over there. It wasn't an investigator, or at least I didn't see it as being an investigation of any kind. And I don't know whether that man was a professional or whether he was just acting as a police officer.

Q. Would it be fair to say, though, that you knew it was important as to why you were giving a statement about what had happened to you from the 5th of November, 1991?

A. No. It was my friend who encouraged me to do that, because they ²⁶⁸⁵² ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁶⁸⁵³ knew what had happened to me. No one asked me to come and make that statement. I didn't receive any particular call-up or summons to make that statement.

Q. One other matter: If we look at paragraph 18 of the statement -- the main statement that was exhibited. I appreciate that on the 15th of September you made a correction to the line that says, "To this day I still don't know where they took me."

A. I'm afraid I can't find my way. I don't know what exactly you're referring to. The 18th?

Q. If you look at paragraph 18 of the statement, where you say, "The questioning went on until around 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning."

A. Yes.

Q. And then, "They put me in an unmarked car and drove to an army barracks about 30 minutes away. To this day I still don't know where they took me."

A. The statement that I made, I think it was three years ago, I didn't prepare myself for it nor did I give detailed thought to things - I thought it would follow a normal course - and just then I couldn't remember the barracks I was taken to. That is why the correction was made now.

Q. In that statement that we see that I've produced this morning, it names the place as being Paragovo; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. Are you telling the Court that you couldn't remember that place when you made the statement on two dates of interview in June of the year ²⁶⁸⁵⁴ 2000?

A. That statement was left like that. I don't remember that we made any corrections. I probably just omitted to do that. And I don't even know whether during those two days I knew.

Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

MS. BAUER: Your Honours, no re-examination.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, it won't matter to you whether you --

MR. KAY: I didn't really want --

JUDGE MAY: It's not for you to say put it in or not, but since there have been questions about it, it may be appropriate to put it in. It may be most convenient, really, if it could be attached to Exhibit 542. There's also an addendum and a sketch plan, and it would seem appropriate if we could attach, Ms. Bauer, I should think, this statement to the -- to the MUP.

MS. BAUER: Yes, Your Honours. We don't have any objections. And if we please could just redact the personal details of the witness for the public version. That's all.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. Yes. Witness C-1160, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go, but could you just wait while the blinds are drawn down.

[The witness withdrew]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the next witness is the witness Marko Knezic. He does not have any protective measures. And he will actually speak about a region which is on page 37 of the atlas ²⁶⁸⁵⁵ Exhibit 336, the village Slano, north-west of Dubrovnik at the coast, and Bileca, above Trebinje.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: MARKO KNEZIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Sir, please state your name.

A. Marko Knezic.

Q. Mr. Knezic, you gave a statement to an investigator of the OTP in the year 2000. Did you review and confirm your statement in a proceeding in front of a court officer in June this year?

A. Yes, I did.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to tender the 92 bis package for this witness. It's the statement, the proceeding, and also the attachment -- attachments to that previous statement.

THE REGISTRAR: 543, Your Honour.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I will now read the summary for the witness and just ask a very few questions. Mr. Knezic was 39 years old at the time of the events. He is ²⁶⁸⁵⁶ from the village of Slano, north of Dubrovnik. Slano had a population of 450 to 500 people, mostly Croats.

When the events in Vukovar got known and the people in the region felt insecure in the middle of 1991, a crisis committee was formed in Slano. The crisis committee worked in coordination with the local police. The witness participated in the village defence. The village defence had very few weapons, namely hunting rifles. They guarded the communication system, water supply, post office, and the like. On the 3rd of October, 1991, the JNA started shelling Slano and its surroundings. The crisis committee of Slano directed the inhabitants, especially elderly, women, and children, to leave the village. By 4th of October, 1991, only about 30 people remained in Slano.

Q. Mr. Knezic, I have just a few questions. This crisis committee in Slano, was it a civilian body or a military body?

A. It was a civilian body.

Q. And the policemen they cooperated with, were they the regular civilian police or was it special police from elsewhere?

A. It was the regular police.

Q. Before the attack, did the population get any warning from the JNA?

A. No, it didn't receive any warning.

Q. Were the villagers ever requested to surrender their village or to surrender weapons to the JNA?

A. No. I never heard any such thing.

Q. Did the villagers do anything that could have caused the attack ²⁶⁸⁵⁷ of the JNA?

A. No, they didn't.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: On the 4th of October, 1991, the JNA attacked Slano with artillery and infantry. The soldiers were wearing SMB uniforms with a red star on the caps. In addition, paramilitary soldiers took part in the attack.

The witness, who had not been able to flee when the attack commenced, spent two months in hiding in the rocks above his house, together with his father and a neighbour. From this place where he was hiding, the witness would see JNA and paramilitary soldiers burning the houses and looting them.

The father of the witness was captured on the 1st of December, 1991, while the witness, along with his neighbour, surrendered to JNA soldiers from the Uzice Corps on the 4th of December that same year. The witness and his neighbour were mistreated during this surrender. The witness was wounded on his head.

On the next day, the 5th of December, the witness was taken to the Bileca prison camp. This prison was first run by the JNA Uzice Corps and later by the JNA Rijeka Corps. The witness was taken to a room, Catacomb, as the prisoners used to call it, and he was chained, together with his neighbour. And a soldier from Uzice came to the room and kicked the witness with his boot and broke his left rib. The next day, the witness was taken to another small room, where he was interrogated by several -- several times by regular JNA officers. He and the other two detainees in that room were hit during -- and beaten ²⁶⁸⁵⁸ during the interrogations.

Subsequently, the witness was detained in two different rooms, together with 30 detainees and 50 detainees respectively. Both rooms were overcrowded. The quantity of food in Bileca prison was inadequate. The hygienic conditions were very bad. The prisoners were psychologically and physically mistreated and humiliated in different ways. They were forced to work.

On the 23rd of May, 1992, along with 90 to 100 other detainees, the witness was taken to Morinj in Montenegro in JNA buses. The living conditions in Morinj camp regarding food and hygiene were worse than in Bileca. The psychological and physical mistreatment continued. Although beating was a routine, the detainees were particularly beaten on the 13th of June, 1992. On that day two ribs of the witness were broken. Along with 20 other detainees, the witness was exchanged on the 2nd of July, 1992.

Q. Mr. Knezic, while you were detained in Bileca or Morinj, were you ever charged with a specific offence or even tried?

A. I was not charged, and I was not tried.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this concludes the examination-in-chief.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Knezic, in paragraph 4 of your statement, you said that you started feeling tensions growing in your region and in ²⁶⁸⁵⁹ your village Slano that you started to organise the defence; is that right?

A. Yes. In our village, at that time a Crisis Staff had been organised. I've already said that. People who organised the defence of the village protected various facilities, anything that had to do with the economy.

Q. And tell me, Mr. Knezevic [as interpreted], what were these tensions that were on the rise in your village? What was going on in your village at the time? What led to this rise in tensions?

A. We were informed by way of the media about attacks against Vukovar. We saw that something unusual was going on in our homeland, Croatia.

Q. All right. So that means that you started organising yourselves, in terms of a defence, before anything happened within your village or in its vicinity.

A. The organisation boiled down to guarding water sources and power facilities. No action was taken which would have jeopardised anyone.

Q. I understand that, but were you threatened by anything at the time?

A. I do not understand this question.

Q. Well, in this region of Dubrovnik, including Slano, absolutely nothing was going on at the time, except that, as you put it, you had organised yourselves to guard economic facilities and other things that you referred to.

A. I've already said we did that. We didn't do anything else. ²⁶⁸⁶⁰

Q. When you started organising yourselves in Slano, did you do this on orders that you received from the Crisis Staff in Dubrovnik?

A. No. This was the Crisis Staff of Slano. I don't know anything about connections between the Crisis Staff in Slano and the Crisis Staff in Dubrovnik.

Q. Do you know whether anybody had ordered Slano, to put it that way - not to mention Dubrovnik or other towns - to start organising these units that are supposed to guard the village or town in any way? Do you know who launched this initiative? Because absolutely nothing was going on in your region at the time.

A. These were not any special kind of units. These were just local people wearing civilian clothes. Their duty was to guard the water supply or the power facilities, like transmission stations and so on.

Q. All right. But as you say in paragraph 4 of your statement, local crisis committees were formed in order to deal with the looming danger.

A. I don't know where I said that.

Q. Since you are testifying on the basis of this Rule, according to which there is no live testimony, I am speaking only on the basis of your written statement. You say, "Local crisis committees were formed." This is in the middle of paragraph 4 of your statement. "Local crisis -- to combat the impending danger, local crisis committees were formed." So it's not that I'm construing anything. I'm just asking you about what you stated in your own statement.

A. I was not a member of the crisis committee. I was just supposed ²⁶⁸⁶¹ to do what I had been ordered to do.

Q. All right. But you are referring to some impending danger, something that was not in place there and then, but you were expecting some kind of danger, weren't you?

A. Well, I wasn't the one who decided about that. There was the Crisis Staff. I was not a member of the Crisis Staff or the local crisis committee, whatever.

Q. However, the time when you started organising these local crisis committees there was actually no danger; isn't that correct at least?

A. I don't know anything about that.

Q. You know the time when this was established, because you refer to it in your statement. You talk about impending danger, and you know that there was no danger there at the time. There was nothing going on. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Knezic?

A. Well, things were happening in Vukovar, and that was probably the main reason why the organisation of the crisis committee was embarked upon.

Q. All right. Did this local crisis committee work in accordance with guidelines provided by the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia; is that right?

A. Well, as you can see in the statement, it says that "The local crisis committee received instructions from Dubrovnik." But I was not a member of the crisis committee, so I cannot answer that.

Q. I understand. But you wrote in this statement that the local crisis committee was receiving instructions from Dubrovnik. ²⁶⁸⁶²

A. Yes.

Q. I asked you about this a short while ago, and you said you did not know about that and that you organised yourselves on your own and that you did not have any connections with Dubrovnik; whereas, in your statement you say that you were given instructions by Dubrovnik.

A. Yes, as it was put here, the local crisis committee. I was just supposed to carry out what the local crisis committee had told me to do.

Q. But you received orders from Dubrovnik.

A. The local crisis committee.

Q. And what kind of orders were these? What did they pertain to?

A. I cannot speak about that. I was not a member of the crisis committee. I can only say that I did what the crisis committee told me to do.

Q. So what did they tell you to do, the crisis committee?

A. Within a given period of time, I was, for example, supposed to guard the water supply that is right above the village.

Q. All right. What kind of weapons did you have then, when you were guarding this water supply?

A. I specifically did not have any weapons.

Q. And who had weapons?

A. Somebody who was in the group. Well, perhaps one hunting rifle.

Q. All right, Mr. Knezevic [as interpreted], you say that the situation worsened. And as the situation worsened, your Crisis Staff started reaching decisions on its own, at its own initiative. Is that right? ²⁶⁸⁶³

A. Yes.

Q. You say that they had hunting rifles only.

A. Yes, that's what I saw.

Q. And members of the Territorial Defence joined these crisis committees and they defended the villages; is that right? That is what you say.

A. Yes. But they didn't have any weapons.

Q. So all of them defended the village unarmed.

A. I've already said that there was a certain number of hunting rifles and that's the only thing that I saw.

Q. All right. Were the villages attacked and were you defending them therefore, since you say the villages were being defended? So had they been attacked before that?

A. They had been attacked on the 3rd and 4th of October, 1991.

Q. As you had put it yourself, the JNA was predominant, in terms of manpower and the equipment it had; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. However, you managed to defend your villages.

A. No, we did not defend our village.

Q. But did you defend it in the first place?

A. I think an attempt was made to defend it, but it could not ultimately be defended.

Q. Is it correct, Mr. Knezic, that from the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff and the ZNG you got orders to attack JNA members whenever possible and wherever possible, those who were retreating from the area? From that ²⁶⁸⁶⁴ area, Northern Dalmatia and ...?

A. I have not heard of such an order.

Q. You have not heard of any such thing?

A. No.

Q. And is it correct that as for the local population, together with them there were members of the National Guards Corps in that area and also some foreign mercenaries?

A. I did not see that.

Q. Did you hear anything about that?

A. No, I did not hear anything about that, and I didn't see anything.

Q. Nothing?

A. I'm talking about Slano.

Q. All right. In paragraph 6 you say that on the 3rd of October, 1991 the Bijelo Brdo TV transmitter was destroyed and that is how war started in your area.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, were there any positions of the ZNG at Bijelo Brdo and was the JNA fired at from there?

A. I said that there were no members of the National Guards Corps in my area, and at that position, at the transmitter, the TV repeater at Bijelo Brdo, there wasn't anyone there.

Q. There was no one at Bijelo Brdo?

A. No.

Q. Tell me now, please: You say that the bay of Slano was shelled ²⁶⁸⁶⁵ from sea and from the direction of Popovo Polje; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. Tell me, how many local people from Slano were injured or killed on that occasion?

A. One man was killed and a few people were wounded.

Q. How did this man get killed?

A. By a shell.

Q. And tell me, how much was the village actually shelled? So from sea and from Popovo Polje you say it was shelled.

A. Yes.

Q. How long did this shelling go on?

A. The shelling was carried out throughout the night between the 3rd and the 4th. And every second or third shell that was fired was inflammable.

Q. So there was intensive shelling all night?

A. Yes.

Q. And one man got killed. And the population of Slano had not left their homes at that point yet and they hadn't gone to Dubrovnik yet.

A. It is already on the 3rd that the inhabitants of Slano started leaving, and they were not retreating towards Dubrovnik but towards the west.

Q. All right. Mr. Knezic, tell me, is it correct that the objective of that attack was not the village of Slano or the civilian population but the positions of what you call the defence of Dubrovnik, from where fire was opened against the members of the JNA? ²⁶⁸⁶⁶

A. I beg your pardon? I don't know what you're talking about now.

Q. Well, was the object of the attack of the JNA the positions from which fire was opened against the JNA?

A. I don't know that anybody fired from any positions near Slano at the JNA.

Q. All right. And you say that the Crisis Staff recommended to the local population to leave Slano.

A. Yes.

Q. You say that one man got killed and that there were a few persons who were wounded. However, in the statement you say that there were many persons who were wounded but that you do not remember their names. Is that right?

A. Yes. I saw some of the wounded, and I heard about others. I don't remember the names.

Q. All right. Slano is a small town, a village. A short while ago you said, when I think Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff mentioned during the brief summary of your statement, that this village has a population of about 500. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. You're a person from Slano.

A. Yes.

Q. You cannot remember a single name of any one of the wounded, including those that you had only heard of? You haven't heard of a single name?

A. For a while - and I've already said that - I was hiding from the ²⁶⁸⁶⁷ shells and from the attack. So then I was not able to see all of these people. Of course, some of the wounded managed to get out towards the west and that was that.

Q. Did you see a single wounded person?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you know at least the name of that person from your village, that small village of yours?

A. Yes, I know.

Q. What was his name?

A. Goran Bebura [phoen].

Q. Did you see any other wounded persons?

A. I did see some wounded persons, but it was night-time, so I was not in a position to recognise everyone.

Q. Since it was night-time, how did you know that they were wounded?

A. Because they were near the medical centre.

Q. Do you draw this conclusion that they were wounded because they were close to the medical centre?

A. They were being treated by a doctor.

Q. All right. And in paragraph 8, you say that "The defenders were at the Admiral Hotel"; is that right?

A. These were a few persons who, as they were fleeing, tried to put up some resistance, and then they withdrew by boats further on, across the sea.

Q. Tell me, please: How long did they offer resistance for? How long did that last? Because you say that they offered resistance and that ²⁶⁸⁶⁸ then they turned towards the sea and got into boats and withdrew. So how long did this resistance last?

A. As far as I know, a very short time. Because I wasn't actually there with them.

Q. And tell me, please, once they withdrew in boats, did they withdraw to Dubrovnik then?

A. As far as I know, they were on their way to Ston.

Q. I see, Ston. Now, you say that you didn't manage to pull out and that you had to go into hiding amongst some rocks with your father and a neighbour; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you in hiding for?

A. For two months.

Q. As long as two months? Well, what did you eat during that time?

A. My father would go around collecting food, some tins. And at that time, it was the mandarin season and oranges were ripe and some rose-hips so that was the only food we had.

Q. You said that "We spent two months in hiding in those rocks and during that time the three of us had a rifle and three or four bullets, and from our shelter we could see the village. There was no electricity, so we would crawl out at night and take food from our houses, from our homes." That means you went home to get food from your houses. Now you tell us that you went around collecting mandarin oranges round about, which of course is something you might have done. But what you say here is that you actually went home and took food from your own house. ²⁶⁸⁶⁹

A. As there was an electricity -- a power cut, all the freezers and refrigerators stopped working and all the food went bad, so that in some of our houses, the ones that hadn't been set fire to yet, we did nonetheless manage to find a box of biscuits, for example, or some stale bread. Whereas, all the rest of the food that was stored in the refrigerators went bad.

Q. Now how is it possible for you to go into the village to take food regardless of whether the food was -- what food you took when you say that the entire village was under occupation? How were you able to do that?

A. Yes, the village was under an occupation. But in the evening hours those who had occupied this settlement would withdraw towards the centre of the village and some of our houses that were located up above the road were accessible to us.

Q. Tell me, please, in paragraph 9 you talk about history repeating itself, something of that kind, and you say, "Soon after the occupation of the village, the JNA and the paramilitaries began setting fire to the house and looting, and in 1667 this happened -- those same people attacked the area. The next time was in 1806 and I hope the last time was 1991," when history seems to have repeated itself. What are you talking about there, Mr. Knezic?

A. I'm talking about what I read about in my history books.

Q. And you say that in -- that 90 per cent of the houses in Slano were burnt down? Is that your testimony?

A. Yes. ²⁶⁸⁷⁰

Q. Was the whole of Slano burnt down then? It no longer remained standing?

A. Just a few houses were left standing, yes.

Q. You even claim that members of the JNA set fire to an old woman called Ana Strazicic to force her to tell them where she had hidden some money.

A. They didn't set fire to her. What happened was that they lit a fire underneath her bed. She was bed ridden and sick and she lived there with her husband and they wanted to extort money from her.

Q. But later on she died a natural death. She was ill and she died of natural causes later on. Is there anybody that can corroborate what you're telling us?

A. Yes, her husband, Mirko Strazicic, and my father, Antun Knezic.

Q. Well, did the woman die of natural causes?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anyone harm her on the occasion when you say that this fire was lit or when you say that she was set on fire?

A. I did not say they set her on fire. What I said was that they lit a fire underneath her bed to make her frightened.

Q. But did anybody harm her? Since you say that they lit a fire underneath her, she must have been hurt.

A. I wasn't there, actually.

Q. Well, who was there? Which of these people were there?

A. Her husband -- her husband was there and my father was there.

Q. But you nonetheless say that the woman died of natural causes. ²⁶⁸⁷¹

A. Yes, later on.

Q. Yes, of course, later on. I understand. Now, you also say that they wanted to rape the wife of a fisherman but didn't actually do so.

A. I heard about that when I was set free, after I had been liberated.

Q. How do you know they wanted to? You say they wanted to rape this man's wife but didn't, so what was all this about? What did you actually see and who actually told you that? Because you saw none of it. You just say that somebody told you.

A. Well, I say what I heard from the wife's family members, some of her relations, and she stayed in Slano.

Q. But nothing happened to the woman, as far as I can see from your statement.

A. She wasn't raped, but her husband, who tried to defend her, was shot in his legs from a firearm and was taken for treatment to Montenegro.

Q. So he was wounded in Slano, but quite obviously not whilst defending his wife, because he wasn't able to defend her successfully and she wasn't raped either.

A. He tried to defend her.

Q. And nothing happened to her, although he wasn't successful in his attempt to defend her. Was he perhaps not wounded on some other occasion and not in defence of his wife?

A. No, he was defending his wife.

Q. But nothing happened to her, did it? ²⁶⁸⁷²

A. That means that he did succeed in defending her in some way.

Q. All right. If that's your conclusion, then we can move on. Mr. Knezic, in paragraph 13 you mention your father, who was captured in December 1991; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me, please: What happened to him after that? Was he taken to Bileca too or was he released?

A. He wasn't taken to Bileca, and neither was he released. He spent the entire time in Mirko Strazicic's house, in a sort of house arrest, under house arrest.

Q. So Mirko Strazicic's house is in fact located in Slano, is it?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of house arrest? Did anybody tell him he wasn't allowed to leave the house or what?

A. He had to have a permit, a pass to go and take food to them, because they were elderly people.

Q. Well, did anybody stand guard in front of their house? Was it a sort of prison or what, or was it an ordinary house and he lived in the house of this man Strazicic?

A. He always had to be in the house if somebody were to come by to control and see whether he was there. And if he went out for food, he had to have a permit or pass to do so.

Q. How often did an inspection come by? Was there a military unit all the time, or would people come and inspect the house from time to time? ²⁶⁸⁷³

A. I think that people came to inspect the house from time to time.

Q. All right. Well, there's no sense in me pursuing the point. Tell me now: Three days later, on the 4th of December, in fact, you were arrested, together with a man called Bozo Glumac. And you talk about that in paragraph 13. You say that you were arrested by members of the Uzice Corps; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. While you were being arrested, you had arms on you, didn't you? You had a weapon on you. Isn't that right?

A. I had an old army -- no, I apologise. An old hunting rifle belonging to my grandfather.

Q. So when you were arrested, you had a rifle on you, did you?

A. I said I had an old hunting rifle belonging to my grandfather.

Q. All right. Now, tell me, how come you were able to say that it was the Uzice Corps which arrested you?

A. The people taking me into custody, capturing me, told me that.

Q. And you claim that you learnt about that only when you were taken to Bileca.

A. Well, yes, that was the information.

Q. So when they brought you to Bileca, did they tell you, "We are members of the Uzice Corps," or what? Did they introduce themselves and tell you what corps they were from? Is that what you're claiming, Mr. Knezic?

A. Well, yes, in Bileca I learnt about it being the Uzice Corps.

Q. Who from? ²⁶⁸⁷⁴

A. I heard from the guards.

Q. All right. In paragraph 14, you say that in the room that you were in -- you were interviewed in, questioned in, a local arrived, a local came into the room by the name of Momcilo Tubic and he pretended he didn't recognise you; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, what was he doing there? Was he a member of the Uzice Corps too?

A. I don't know what he was doing there.

Q. Or was he wearing a uniform?

A. I think he was wearing civilian clothes.

Q. He was a local, you say, but he was wearing civilian clothes. How could he have gone to a military facility wearing civilian clothes? Why did he come there in the first place?

A. Well, I don't know. I can't say.

Q. You claim that they gave you food to eat and that was the first time that you had seen bread for the past two months, the two months you spent in hiding; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, that means that as soon as you were brought there, they fed you straight away.

A. No. I was questioned first, interrogated first.

Q. And the very next day, on the 5th of December, you and Glumac were transferred to Bileca; is that it?

A. Yes. ²⁶⁸⁷⁵

Q. And together with you, as you say, there was some officer from Trebinje; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So both Trebinje and Bileca are on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Knezic?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that at the time the Yugoslav People's Army, both on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as on the territory of Croatia, was the regular army, belonging to the state, so an army on its own territory? Are you aware of that?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. All this is taking place in 1991; that's right, isn't it, Mr. Knezic?

A. Yes, 1991.

Q. Now, you are saying you were arrested by members of JNA and taken to Bileca and Trebinje. You were in Trebinje, Bileca and Slano. Now, at that time - and the period is 1991 - was the JNA the sole regular army on the territory of the former Yugoslavia or was there some other army there?

A. I don't know about any other army, and I don't know why the JNA was supposed to attack Slano.

Q. I'm not going into that. I really don't know about that. What I'm trying to do is to learn what you know about and what you're testifying about. So tell me, Mr. Knezevic [as interpreted], you were not a member of the Croatian National Guards Corps, were you?

A. No, I was not. ²⁶⁸⁷⁶

Q. But at the point of your arrest, you had a weapon on you, and it was considered that you had taken part in the attacks on the JNA; is that right?

A. I didn't attack anybody. I didn't fire a single bullet. And I'm not a hunter either, so I don't really know how to load a rifle either.

Q. Well, the men who captured you couldn't have known that. They came across you with a weapon and they assumed, I suppose --

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, the witness can't possibly answer what was in the minds of those who arrested him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I assume he can answer this question: What does he think? Why was he sent to this collection centre in Bileca? In what capacity? He was arrested bearing arms.

JUDGE MAY: He can't answer for what somebody might have thought or somebody else's reasoning. But he can be asked this: Did they -- when they arrested you, Mr. Knezic, did they tell you why they were arresting you and why they were taking you to these camps? Did they say anything to explain that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody explained anything to me.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, Mr. Knezic. Now, upon arrival in Bileca, as you yourself say, a certain man called Ivan Tanovic introduced himself and told you he was from Uzice on the occasion. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he a soldier, an officer, a man wearing a uniform, a member of the JNA? ²⁶⁸⁷⁷

A. Yes, he was a soldier.

Q. Well, is it true that he said that he was from Uzice, not that he was actually a member of the Uzice Corps that, he was from Uzice, that he was born in Uzice, that that was his native town?

A. Yes. And his nickname was Ivan of Uzice, "od Uzice."

Q. And what was he wearing?

A. A military uniform.

Q. He was a soldier. He didn't have a rank of any kind, did he?

A. I didn't see him with a rank insignia. When he came up and he broke my ribs, I wasn't able to see anything.

Q. So that means the man beat you, did he?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he beat anybody else?

A. Yes. But I didn't see at all, because there were just the two of us in that room.

Q. All right. Now, you say that over the next few days members of the JNA interrogated you and they mistreated you.

A. Yes, I was interrogated.

Q. What did they question you about? Can you remember?

A. I can't really remember very well, but I think the interrogations were linked to the defence of the locality.

Q. Did they ask you about a National Guards Corps unit, the number of soldiers this unit had and questions along those lines?

A. I said that in my village there was no National Guards Corps unit, and I think they knew that, so they didn't have to put any such ²⁶⁸⁷⁸ questions to me.

Q. Well, what, then, did they ask you? As you are talking about an interrogation, what did they ask you?

A. I think I've already answered that question.

Q. All right. I won't insist. Can't you remember what they asked you about?

Tell me, then: Do you remember seeing the nickname of one of those men? And you say that his name was Biga. Where is that man from?

A. I don't know where he's from.

Q. You claim that he was a JNA captain.

A. Yes, because he had such a rank insignia on his uniform.

Q. Very well. Tell me, please, you say that he was wearing an SMB uniform. Is that why you claim that he was a JNA member? And a captain by rank?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you as a member of the reserve force of the JNA have a similar uniform at home?

A. I didn't have any uniforms at home.

Q. Did anyone else have them in Slano?

A. I didn't see them. I think that no one had any uniforms.

Q. Now, these guards who beat you, that you say mistreated you at night, were they also JNA members?

A. Yes. They were guards in the camp in Bileca.

Q. But you claim that there were guards who treated you like human beings, as you put it, treated you decently. I see that you keep checking ²⁶⁸⁷⁹ through your statement. I do assume that you do recollect some of these things.

A. Yes. I remember very well all the mistreatment that I was subjected to for a total of 212 days in two camps. And for that reason I can't sleep well. I find it difficult to concentrate. And I am -- I am not very good at fulfilling my responsibilities. I have a wife and three children at home. I was taken to two camps for absolutely no reason, and I repeat, I spent 212 days there absolutely for no reason.

Q. Tell me, Mr. Knezic, please, did an officer of the JNA ever beat you or mistreat you?

A. Mistreatment doesn't merely imply beating. Mistreatment also includes psychological mistreatment, which it is very difficult to stand. To be more specific, during my stay in two camps, I went seven times to be exchanged. We were promised that we would be exchanged in three or four days, and this was a mere lie, and it was only on the seventh occasion that at an exchange which was not an exchange, on the 2nd of July, 1992 in Cavtat, I was released - I can call it that - from the camp in Morinj.

Q. You were released in Cavtat, and this was not an exchange, was it?

A. As far as I was able to gather, our exchange had been prepared for the 5th of May that year, but it didn't take place and I didn't see anyone moving from Brod to the buses that we were brought there in.

Q. You were released without an exchange.

A. I don't know what the arrangement was. I just know that this was on the 212th day of my detention in two camps, without any reasons. ²⁶⁸⁸⁰

Q. I am very sorry, Mr. Knezic, that this happened to you. I'm just asking you questions to establish the facts. So if no officer ever beat you and there were guards who treated you decently, can you claim that those who beat you received orders from a higher place to beat you, whether they be JNA or from someone else, or was it just arbitrary behaviour by individuals?

JUDGE MAY: The witness can't say whether the men had orders unless they said something to him.

Did anybody say whether they'd been ordered to beat you or not, Mr. Knezic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. But I do know that beatings were a daily occurrence, and they would wake us up at night. Again for no reason we would be beaten. And while being beaten, we had to hold our hands behind our heads and look down at the floor. So we couldn't always know who was beating us.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And on the 23rd of June, 1992, you were transferred to Morinj in the territory of Montenegro; is that right?

A. I think that's not the right date. I think it was the -- the 23rd of May.

Q. I see, in May. And you say that in Morinj too you were beaten. Do you know who were the guards who beat you there?

A. I said that whenever we moved around, we had to look down, look at the floor. Our hands had to be behind our heads, and none of us dared to look at who was beating us. ²⁶⁸⁸¹

Q. I understand that. But tell me, please: You do distinguish between the people who beat you and those who treated you decently. So could you at least tell us who were the people who treated you decently? Because I assume they would not prevent you from looking at them if these others who beat you would not let you look at them.

A. Regardless who was with us in a particular area or room, we had to look down. This was humiliating. We didn't know who was beating us. But in most cases they must have been the prison guards. I just know that especially in Morinj - I don't know his name - there was a young man who told us a little about what was happening outside, because throughout that time we were in total isolation in terms of information. We had no information.

Q. In paragraph 39, you say that on the 13th of June, 1992 a certain Gligic tortured you and beat you in Morinj. He was wearing a JNA uniform, but you say he was not a member of the army. Is that right?

A. With regard to him, they said that he was a reservist.

Q. You say, "He was wearing an SMB uniform, greyish-olive-green, but I'm sure he was not a regular member of the JNA." You go on to say that "He was much older than the regular soldiers and this was confirmed to us by the prison guards as well."

A. Yes.

Q. You yourself say that you never saw a single JNA officer issuing orders to a soldier, a reservist, or a guard to beat the prisoners, is that right, but you assume that they had their permission to do that. Is that right, Mr. Knezic? ²⁶⁸⁸²

A. I think it is logical for a soldier to carry out orders.

JUDGE MAY: It's time now for the adjournment. Mr. Milosevic, there will be ten minutes more for your cross-examination, if you require it.

Mr. Knezic, could I please remind you not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution. Could you be back in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Knezic, did I understand you correctly that this mistreatment that you described took place at night?

A. There was mistreatment by day and by night.

Q. But you never saw a single JNA officer giving orders to a soldier to mistreat people, so I -- surely you know that that is a crime, to mistreat prisoners of war.

A. I don't know how I could have been a prisoner of war.

Q. Well, that is probably how they treated you, because they arrested you with a weapon on you. I'm just assuming. I'm not claiming that.

A. I didn't have a weapon in my hand.

Q. A moment ago you said you did. But that doesn't change anything regarding these explanations.

A. I didn't say that I had a weapon on me. ²⁶⁸⁸³

Q. But you said you were arrested with a rifle that was your grandfather's.

A. Yes, that's true. But I didn't have the weapon in my hand. It was hidden away so as not to get wet from the rain.

Q. Did you ever learn whether there were any proceedings against any person who mistreated you or anyone else, a criminal or any other kind of proceedings against such persons?

A. Yes. I heard regarding the commander of the Bileca camp, Branko Ljubisic.

Q. If proceedings were instituted against the commander, I assume you must have heard that similar proceedings were instituted against other perpetrators of such impermissible acts. Did you hear anything about that?

A. I did not.

Q. You just mentioned, according to your own knowledge - and I cannot be privy to that knowledge - you mentioned one of the camp commanders. What was the name of the other camp commander in Morinj?

A. I never learnt that.

Q. As far as I was able to see from what you wrote here, you mentioned that the commander of the camp in Bileca was Miodrag Nikolic, and now you mentioned a different name of the commander, saying that proceedings were instituted against him.

JUDGE MAY: To what --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we got there --

JUDGE MAY: Let's see what the point the accused is trying to ²⁶⁸⁸⁴ make.

He's mentioned one name in his evidence. Are you putting another name to him now, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am pointing to his testimony, in which -- in his statement, in which he mentioned the name Miodrag Nikolic. I'm not saying anything other than what I find in the statement.

JUDGE MAY: Which paragraph is that?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thirty-five, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes. Well, Mr. Knezic, the point that's made is that you mentioned two names -- you've now mentioned two names as the commander at Bileca. Can you assist us as to how that comes about?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I got there, there was the Uzice Corps, and he was replaced -- the corps -- that corps was replaced by the Rijeka Corps. And this mentioned Branko Ljubisic is from the Rijeka Corps.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

Q. Regarding this Ljubisic, it is known that he was called to account for what happened there. As for Nikolic, you don't know anything about him.

A. No, I don't know anything about Nikolic.

Q. While Nikolic was in command, was there mistreatment of prisoners as well?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. Apart from this one person that you heard was called to account, ²⁶⁸⁸⁵ do you know of anyone else being prosecuted?

A. I don't.

Q. Very well, Mr. Knezic. While you were either in Bileca or in Morinj or in both, did any representative of the Red Cross come and visit you?

A. Yes. On several occasions, representatives of the International Red Cross did visit us.

Q. If you were so badly mistreated, as you say, did you pass on that information to representatives of the International Red Cross?

A. People were afraid to tell them anything, because they were in fear and they feared further mistreatment, and it was also possible for a man to have a sandbag and then be beaten and then no traces are left.

Q. Does that mean that when you spoke to representatives of the International Red Cross you had no visible traces of mistreatment on you?

A. A broken rib cannot be shown to anyone. It is only visible under an x-ray.

Q. Tell me, the other prisoners, did they have any traces of mistreatment? Because you say that the International Red Cross visited you several times. So surely they must have noticed traces of mistreatment.

A. Psychological mistreatment in particular are not so clearly visible.

Q. I'm not asking you about psychological mistreatment. Of course, the very fact that one is in prison is psychological mistreatment. But I'm asking you about physical mistreatment. And due to several visits by ²⁶⁸⁸⁶ the International Red Cross, I'm asking you whether they noticed any traces of that physical mistreatment on the prisoners.

A. Perhaps you should ask them.

Q. So you didn't complain to any one of them, did you, you yourself?

A. We were all afraid to complain of anything.

Q. So no one complained. And apart from the Red Cross, were there any physicians in either of the camps?

A. Only once did I see a doctor, in Bileca.

Q. Did that doctor intervene in relation to you or to someone else, and in what -- under what circumstances? Did he examine you, this doctor?

A. He just brought some pills that the men needed.

Q. Were you able, according to the rules in the camp, to ask? Could you ask to see a doctor?

A. I don't know what kind of rules you're referring to.

Q. Did any one of those people who were responsible for you in the camp say that there was the possibility for you to see a doctor if you needed medical treatment?

A. I never heard of any such thing.

Q. Then how did this doctor bring pills to some of the men who needed them if nobody had requested medical assistance? Did he do it just like that, or did you just see it happen?

A. I saw this only once. He came. He asked whether anybody needed some kind of pills. Later on he brought them, and that was that.

Q. All right. In addition to the International Red Cross, did any other humanitarian organisation have a representative of theirs come and ²⁶⁸⁸⁷ see you? Anybody outside the camp?

A. I know that during the first and second visit of the International Red Cross I had been hidden. It was only during their third visit that I was registered.

Q. And how many --

JUDGE MAY: You must bring this to a close, please. But you can ask two more questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What was the total number of visits of this International Red Cross to Bileca and Morinj, as far as you know?

A. I think that the visits were on average once a month.

Q. That means during this time there had to have been at least seven visits, if it were once a month.

A. I said "on average," so it could have been even less.

Q. All right. Did anybody receive a visitor? Did any relatives, friends come and visit the prisoners there, anybody, any one of the prisoners who were there in the camp?

A. I did not receive any visits, and I did not hear of anybody else receiving any visitors.

Q. All right, Mr. Knezic. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: We have no questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there --

JUDGE MAY: There is attached to the statement the photograph of ²⁶⁸⁸⁸ the witness's house, I see.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And it was burnt. And I have only -- and attached are also some medical records, but they refer to the psychological result --

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- of the detention.

JUDGE MAY: Various psychological reports. We've seen those.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I have only one question to clarify one matter.

Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Mr. Milosevic inquired about the hunting rifle of your grandfather. When you surrendered to the -- to the Uzice Corps, to the soldiers, did you have that hunting rifle with you and did you hand it over?

A. The hunting rifle, as I said, was near the rock where I was hiding with my father and my neighbour. There was no ammunition in it. It was not used. And the soldiers who took me prisoner took it themselves.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Knezic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: There'll be a few minutes to arrange the voice ²⁶⁸⁸⁹ distortion for the next witness.

Are there any administrative matters meanwhile, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

Ms. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not -- not that I know of.

[The witness withdrew]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] According to what I have here now, the next witness is not a protected witness. Is the list I have wrong?

JUDGE MAY: Well, if you have the witness -- the witness list I think of the 9th of September - I could be wrong about the date - but the one that I have most certainly has the next witness as a protected witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a lady with a name and surname here. Now, let me take a look.

JUDGE MAY: I think you'll find she's protected.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If the witness would like to take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS C-1164

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. ²⁶⁸⁹⁰ Ms. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Madam, in front of you is a sheet of paper. Is there your name on it?

A. Yes.

Q. You gave a statement to an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor in the year 2000. Did you have an opportunity to read and confirm this statement, with some additions, in a proceeding in front of a court officer during your stay here in The Hague?

A. Yes. Ms. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to tender the 92 bis statement of the witness.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the pseudonym sheet will be 544 under seal, and the statement will be 545 under seal. Ms. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will now read the summary. The witness is a Croatian female. She was a resident of Vukovar during the events. Beginning of July 1991, the JNA started shelling Vukovar. From the 25th of August, 1991 onwards, Vukovar was surrounded from all sides. The shelling intensified and the witness and six other civilians took shelter in the basement of a house until the 16th of September, 1991.

The group ventured outside on the 16th of September and encountered 10 to 15 men, JNA reservists from Vukovar and elsewhere. These soldiers forced them back into the house. All the while, the witness could hear people screaming, crying, and a lot of shooting. ²⁶⁸⁹¹ From the 16th of September until the 12th of October, 1991, the witness and about ten other Croatian civilians were detained in different Serb houses, guarded by JNA reservists. They had to put a white ribbon on their arms. One of the houses was a kind of headquarters for the soldiers. During their detention, the witness and the other detainees, most of them women and children, were interrogated. While the women were only verbally abused, one of the male detainees, a friend of the witness, was physically mistreated.

On the 12th of October, 1991, two soldiers took the detainees to Velepromet factory. Ten additional Croats, including children and women, were already there. Upon arrival, the witness's friend, the male civilian, was taken away for interrogation. He is missing ever since. The witness and her mother were then removed from Velepromet and again detained in different Serb houses. On the 10th of November, 1991, they were brought back to Velepromet. That same day, about 50 to 60 women, children, and elderly were transferred to the military prison in Sid --

THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff please slow down. Ms. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They were taken to a facility, a sort of movie theatre, from where most of the detainees were taken out for interrogation. The witness was interrogated throughout the night. Although the witness was not beaten herself, she heard screaming from the interrogation room next door.

The witness, together with about 70 non-Serbs, mostly women, children, and old men, were driven to Becej, Vojvodina, in a bus. They ²⁶⁸⁹² were escorted by Serb soldiers. In Becej, the witness and 20 others were called out from the bus. The others were taken to Begejci camp. The witness and her group were taken to the Becej sports hall. There Sveto, a member of the Serbian state security, gave them instruction on how to behave. That night every detainee was interrogated by members of the state security of Serbia.

The next morning, they were again loaded onto a bus and taken to the Sremska Mitrovica military prison. They saw a military truck bringing men from Vukovar to be detained there as well. The witness and her group were searched, their money and jewellery was taken away. After a few days, many of the detainees, among them the witness and her mother, were transferred to the Sremska Mitrovica sports hall. There they met about 1.000 civilians that had arrived at the sports hall after the fall of Vukovar. The witness's mother had to sign a form handing over her property in Vukovar to the authorities.

On or around the 19th of November, 1991, a convoy was organised and the witness and her mother managed to get on the convoy that travelled through Bosnia to Croatia.

Q. Witness, I have just one aspect to ask you about: During your detention in all these various houses in Vukovar or the facilities in Serbia, were you always guarded by armed personnel, JNA or other soldiers?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And during the transfers, was that also the case? Were you also always --

A. Yes. Yes. ²⁶⁸⁹³

Q. In all these places, be it in the -- in Serbia or in Vukovar, could you move around freely?

A. No. No, we could not move about.

Q. Did you stay in all these places or any of these places on your own free will?

A. I did not stay in any one of these places of my own free will.

Q. When you were transferred to Serbia, were you ever informed where you were taken and what would happen to you?

A. No. We never knew where they were taking us and what would happen next.

Q. Did you ever have a choice to decide where to stay and where to go?

A. No. There wasn't any choice. We did not have the possibility of a choice.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are the questions that I have.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. 1164, when were you arrested?

A. On the 16th of September, 1991.

Q. That means that you spent two months in all these events that you've been testifying about.

A. Yes.

Q. A short while ago you said that you did not have any choice. On the 19th of November, you were taken in a convoy through Bosnia to Croatia. ²⁶⁸⁹⁴

A. Yes.

Q. Was that your choice, to be set free and to be safely taken to a place where you would feel safe?

A. The convoy in which we left was organised by the European Union, actually, with the people from Vukovar, a great many people from Vukovar, representatives of the international community also arrived, and that is how we managed to get out in this convoy, through Bosnia to Croatia.

Q. I assume that you know that the representatives of the international community were there with the agreement of the authorities of Serbia and Yugoslavia to see how people were being treated or, rather, in this particular case citizens who had been evacuated from war-affected areas, and then they were transported to safe areas.

A. When we were brought from the prison in Sremska Mitrovica, there were no representatives of the international community. Still we had armed JNA soldiers around us.

Q. At any rate, this two-month episode of yours ended with your own safe departure, the safe departure of your mother, and of the other citizens who were transferred to Croatia then; is that right?

A. Safe, in the sense that we arrived safe and sound, but we did not belong to the convoy that came from Vukovar. We were detainees, the entire group that was there. When the convoy set out, we requested the members -- the representatives of the international community to make sure that we would leave with them, because people came on buses and everybody had their own seats on a particular bus. We were not brought -- we had not been brought with them, and people didn't know about us when they came ²⁶⁸⁹⁵ to the sports hall in Sremska Mitrovica.

Q. So you could have been in contact with them. So you were not concealed in any way, since you were in contact with them and you asked to be included in this convoy.

A. There was a great many people there and everybody came to one hall.

Q. And then you were transferred.

A. I think everybody was. I don't know.

Q. So this great many people who were evacuated from the war-affected areas stayed there for a while, where they did in Serbia, and then they were transported to Croatia on buses; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreters cannot hear the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now I'm going to put a few concrete questions to you. As far as I can see from your statement, on page 2, in paragraph 1, during the war you were serving in the Croatian army. You were assigned to a Crisis Staff?

A. Yes, I gave an additional statement. When I was taken prisoner, I was not a member of the Croatian army. I was working for a state agency. I was part of the services that were engaged in taking care of things that were going on in that particular building, so that would be a Crisis Staff.

Q. All right. So you did not belong to a military organisation? ²⁶⁸⁹⁶

A. No. No, not when I was taken prisoner.

Q. And you were not a member of any political party?

A. No.

Q. And you became a member of the Crisis Staff.

A. Yes.

Q. What qualified you for becoming a member of the Crisis Staff?

A. Among the people who were there where I worked at the time, everybody was assigned a particular job. I, with a lady colleague of mine, tried to take care of everything; lists, archives, and to have it put at certain places, safe places. During those days, that's what it was, more or less.

Soon afterwards, I was taken prisoner, and I did not see anybody after that. Actually, on the 13th of September it was the last time that I was at work, and then I went back and that was it.

Q. And who took you on this Crisis Staff?

A. The people who were there.

Q. Can you say -- be more specific?

A. No.

Q. Do you know the full name of this Crisis Staff?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Who was president?

A. I don't know.

Q. For how long did you work on this Crisis Staff altogether?

A. Well, it was perhaps for about a week, and then it became impossible to move around and to come. I lived farther away from the ²⁶⁸⁹⁷ place where I worked, so I tried to come and do the things that should have been done there, in terms of taking care of the archives and things like that.

Q. All right. On page 2, in paragraph 2, of your statement, you say that after the elections of 1990, you could feel a difference in Vukovar, that there were some tensions or something like that. Could you elaborate on that.

A. Well, as far as I'm concerned personally, I did not see any big differences in all of this, but what it says here in my statement is that people talked about it, how the Croatian state became independent and our colleagues who worked with us were not exactly thrilled. They were ethnic Serbs and they didn't like seeing the Croatian flag even on Croatian television at the beginning and the end of the Croatian TV programme, let alone on the buildings that were there.

Q. What was being discussed about the independence of Croatia that caused concern among the Serbs in the area?

A. I don't know whether it caused concern. They probably --

Q. All right. Tell me, Madam 1164, what were your own political views then in relation to these developments?

A. I did not meddle in politics. I did my own job, and I thought that nothing had changed and I didn't think that attention would have to be paid to things like that, that the Croatian flag was flying on Croatian buildings in Croatia.

Q. So it's not only a question of the flag, but is it true that during these first multi-party elections Slavko Dokmanovic, a Serb, was ²⁶⁸⁹⁸ elected president of the Municipal Assembly?

A. I think those are the facts, yes. I think he was. I'm sure that that is probably common knowledge, whether he was or not.

Q. Now, do you remember who won most of the votes from the parties -- of the parties at those first multi-party elections?

A. Well, all that's a question of history. I really can't say. I really don't know how the voting went at that time.

Q. Well, do you remember that the representatives of the League of Communists of Croatia won the largest number of votes, or the SDB -- the SKH?

JUDGE MAY: The witness has just said that she doesn't remember, and there's no point repeating it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you remember that already in July 1991, by decree, the Assembly was dissolved, the one chosen at the elections, that its president, a Serb, Dokmanovic, was suspended and that somebody else was put in his place, Marin Vidic, a representative of the Croatian government?

A. Yes, I think that's what happened. Now, whether that was on the -- in June or July, I really can't say, but I think those are facts. And it's easy to check them out, so I don't think you need me -- I really don't know, but there was Marin Vidic. Now, whether he was appointed by the deputy or what, I really can't say.

Q. Well, his party only won 25 per cent of the votes in Vukovar, if ²⁶⁸⁹⁹ you recall. You don't remember that?

A. Well, as I say, I didn't really deal with statistics or politics or anything like that in Vukovar. I really can't say.

Q. You say on page 2, paragraph 2 - and I'm not going to delve into what you don't deal with in your statement or, rather, I'll try not to and to keep it to a bare minimum - but you say that the Croats in Vukovar, after the elections, did their best not to upset the Serbs.

A. When I say that and when I said that, I meant the environment I lived and worked in. And whenever there were any comments - you're going to refer to the flags again - now, I don't know when the flag began to appear, whether automatically on television or in the papers, but I and the people around me, we didn't actually react to any of this and we never -- with our colleagues, we never discussed this with our colleagues. That wasn't up to us. It wasn't our place to do so.

Q. Madam 1144 [as interpreted], I'm quite sure you didn't involve yourself in any of this, and I'm not trying to imply that you meddled in it, but have you heard of Tomislav Mercep?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And he was the commander, was he, of those forces, the Croatian National Guards Corps, those forces that were set up in Vukovar at the time before any conflicts broke out at all?

A. When you say "any kind of conflicts," what period are you referring to?

Q. Until the conflict broke out, in fact?

A. Well, I have heard of Mercep, and I do know that for a time he ²⁶⁹⁰⁰ worked in that secretariat or whatever it was. But from the founding of - what did you call them - the Guards or whatever, I don't know anything about that.

Q. So you don't know anything about those sorts of activities and the persecution of the Serb ethnic group in Vukovar, the killings, the dismissals from work posts, et cetera.

A. Where I lived and worked in my environment, none of that happened. There was none of that where I lived and worked.

Q. Now, did you hear what happened in the different villages around Vukovar and how individuals fared, the crimes that were committed, the casualties and so on?

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that you're asking me that, let me say again that when people did start talking about what had happened somewhere, the people around us, as a general rule we didn't react to any of those stories and things that were being said.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that already at the end of 1990 a man called Zeljko Ostojic testified about this and later on, probably due to his testimony, was killed?

A. No, I never heard of the name. Which testimony? Where? What do you mean?

Q. Well, he was killed just half an hour after the Spegelj film was shown.

A. I don't know. ²⁶⁹⁰¹

Q. And his testimony was on that film.

A. I've never heard of him, the name or the event.

Q. And did you ever hear of anything about any decisions about ethnic cleansing of the Vukovar municipality?

A. No.

Q. Did you have any knowledge of the visits of Vladimir Seks [phoen] and Ivan Vekic and Branimir Glavas to Vukovar?

A. No. As I say, I'm not a political person. I've never dealt in politics, had anything to do with politics.

Q. As you didn't have anything to do with politics, do you know any cases in which Serbs were replaced from different posts in Vukovar and dismissed from their jobs except for this man who was mayor, president of the municipality, Mr. Dokmanovic?

A. I don't remember that until the 16th of September, when I was captured, that there were any cases of that kind.

Q. Do you know Zdravko Egic [phoen], the director general of the Borovo company?

A. No.

Q. So you know nobody from the Borovo concern?

A. No.

Q. What about Mirko Bejanovic, the director of Buca [phoen], and Marko Sejgl [phoen], the director of Transport, that company?

A. No. And I don't know anything about Borovo or who occupied what post or anything about the factory really.

Q. But do you at least know that Marin Vidic, Bili, who was a deputy ²⁶⁹⁰² of the Croatian government replaced the head of the Vukovar hospital, Dr. Rade Popovic even, and replaced him by a Dr. Vesna Bosanac? Do you remember that event?

A. I remember that Vesna Bosanac did begin -- become the director. Now, who replaced whom, I really can't say. And when that took place, I really don't know.

Q. So you don't know anything about these replacements and dismissals in the social insurance company, the Secretariat of the Defence of the municipality and things of that kind?

A. No.

JUDGE MAY: We're wasting time here. The witness doesn't know anything about this. There's no point just going all over it time and time again with all your lists of names. Pointless, Mr. Milosevic. Why don't you move on to something else. Move on to some of her evidence about how she was arrested and detained and that kind of thing. She can deal with that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I assume that it is my right to ask the witness about the events in Vukovar, because the witness was there. She's an educated woman. So I assume that she is informed.

JUDGE MAY: It's pointless asking her about things she knows nothing about, all these alleged grievances which you have. No point rehearsing them with her. You can call your own evidence about it if you want.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as you see, she does know about some of these and not about others. So I can't know in advance what ²⁶⁹⁰³ the witness knows about and the things she doesn't know about.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, all right. Let me ask you this, madam: Did you know about the mining of facilities owned by Serbs, that they were blown up at that time in Vukovar, that is to say, before any conflict actually broke out? Did you hear anything about that?

A. As to what you are -- just like the questions you asked beforehand, all I know about that event and those events was what the media wrote about. I don't have any direct knowledge of these events or indirect knowledge or neither do I know anything concrete about any of these events.

Q. But as you're talking about the media, did you see about the takeover by force of Radio Vukovar?

A. I don't think that it was taken over by force.

Q. A different director was appointed.

A. No. Everything I'm saying is to the best of my recollections. Now, whether there was any forceful takeover -- forcible takeover, I don't know.

Q. All right. So you don't know anything about that. Now, do you know anything about the blockade of JNA facilities in Vukovar, for example, the blockade of the barracks in Vukovar, to be more specific?

A. As far as I know, the barracks were not blocked until the time that I was taken into custody. So I didn't hear about the blockade of the barracks at all, that it had actually been blocked. ²⁶⁹⁰⁴

Q. How come you didn't -- well, if you haven't heard anything about that, then I won't ask you about that any more.

Now, was any -- were any of your family members members of any political party?

A. No.

Q. Or perhaps of some military formation?

A. No.

Q. Just let me consult my notes and take a moment, please. I should like to ask you, Madam 1164, for your comments on this. I'm not quite clear on paragraph 6 of your statement it says, "Around the 4th of September, I asked soldiers from our -- our soldiers to come to my place and take grenades that my father had in our house. I knew that I would never use them. Our soldiers always told us that everything was under control, that nothing would happen, and that we shouldn't worry."

A. What it says in my statement -- when I say "our soldiers," I mean people who were civilians who were there, the men there, the males around the house who at that time, towards the end of August and beginning of September, took care of the rest of the civilians in the area. That meant that, for example, they would -- there was a lot of shelling, terrible shelling, so they collected some sand and put the sand up in sandbags around the windows. Potatoes were being handed out to everybody there in the local commune. So that's what I said -- meant when I said "soldiers," the people who were there. They weren't actually people wearing uniforms of any kind. They were all our neighbour, people who lived around that place. They were all Croats by ethnicity. ²⁶⁹⁰⁵

Q. Yes, I understand what you want to say. But as you are testifying on the basis of your statement, then I saw you talking about soldiers. Now, what other weapons were there in your house except for these grenades?

A. Nothing, nothing. No other weapons.

Q. Why did your father have these grenades in the house in the first place?

A. I don't know. Had I known about them, I would probably have told him that we didn't need that. I just happened to come across them. When I found them, I handed them over, because my mother and I were alone in the house, and I tried to get rid of them as soon as possible.

Q. How did he come to possess these grenades?

A. I don't know.

Q. I see. You just came across them, found them, and then asked that they be got rid of.

A. That's right, yes.

Q. I understand perfectly.

JUDGE MAY: May I remind both the witness and the accused not to speak at the same time, please.

Madam C-1164, could you watch the accused's microphone, and when the light goes out, answer, but not before. In that way we will then maintain the protection.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You said a moment ago, during the brief examination-in-chief, ²⁶⁹⁰⁶ that you were there when the shelling started, that you were in the basement, actually, in the cellar; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And when was that exactly?

A. The shelling --

Q. When were you there?

A. Well, before we were taken prisoner, we were in the basement practically every day when there was shelling going on.

Q. Can you give us a date?

A. Up until the 16th of September.

Q. You say in your statement on page 3, paragraph 3, that you saw people who were reservists of the JNA -- I think Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff was quoting you, or you said that they were reservists who were locals, the local inhabitants that you saw there. Is that right? Once you left the basement.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know any of them?

A. Not all of them, but some of them, yes, I did.

Q. So as you knew them, you concluded that they were the locals; right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say -- you said that they looked frightening because they had chains with Orthodox crosses on them. Is that what you said? And I'm quoting from your statement, paragraph 8, if you count the last paragraph on page 3 of your statement. You say that "I knew at least five of them ²⁶⁹⁰⁷ by sight. I went to school with them. They were from the village of Negoslavci. All these men were reservists of the JNA before the war started in Croatia. The group was really scary to look at. They were carrying chains with Orthodox crosses, they were dirty, had long beards," and so on.

Tell me, please, what is the difference between an Orthodox cross and a Catholic cross?

A. I was just waiting for the interpretation. Well, the difference is in the shape. They look different. An Orthodox cross looks different from a Catholic cross. And one of the men who came and whom I recognised had this big Orthodox cross, and he was my neighbour, a Serb.

Q. Yes, I understand that. But that's not what I meant by my question. What I want to know is this: Apart from the difference in the words "cross" - "kriz" in Croatian and "krst" in Serbian - where is the Orthodox cross different from the Catholic cross?

A. Well, it looks different in shape.

Q. All right, Witness. Well, one lives and learns throughout life. As far as I can see, you were detained in the house of a certain Tomasevic in Vukovar. Is that right? Is it true that in the yard of Tomasevic's house a Kalashnikov was found that had been buried there?

A. Yes. My friend, he was taken out of the basement and he was told to dig, and he unearthed a Kalashnikov buried next to the wall.

Q. On Saturday, the 12th of September, 1991 a certain Bozidar Bauk was taken away. Is that right?

A. Yes. Not on the 12th of September but on the 12th of October. ²⁶⁹⁰⁸

Q. I see. Then I am mistaken. And what happened to this Bauk?

A. Nothing is known of him. There's no trace of him to this day.

Q. Apart from this Bauk who you say was taken away and of whom nothing is known, I do not see from your statement that during your detention anything happened along the lines of physical torture or mistreatment or anything like that during your detention.

A. No physical torture, but psychological, yes.

Q. Of course the very fact that you had to stay in that house was a kind of torture, but did anyone insult you, threaten you? What did this psychological torture consist of, apart from the fact, which of course I am not denying, that if somebody is keeping you in detention, that that is a form of torture as well?

A. We were taken for interrogation several times, so that was real torture. That did take place. Constant questioning whenever they wanted, they would take us along the street with our hands behind our backs and our heads bowed, to some houses where we were questioned every time by someone else.

Q. Your hands were tied?

A. No, mine were not.

Q. And they took you to some houses to question you?

A. Yes.

Q. And who questioned you? Were they civilians or soldiers or reservists? Could you perhaps be a little more specific in describing those who questioned you.

A. They were always military persons. There was never a civilian at ²⁶⁹⁰⁹ the other end of the table. They were always people wearing olive-grey military uniforms of different age groups who were questioning us.

Q. When you say that they wore these olive-grey uniforms and were of different ages, does that mean that they were local reservists?

A. Yes, I assume. So I didn't know them. It could have been an active-duty officer of the then-JNA. I didn't know them. I didn't know the people who were questioning me, but they were always people in uniform.

Q. On page 5, second paragraph you say that Serb soldiers even informed your mother about you, where you were, et cetera.

A. That was when they took me for questioning. It lasted so long, and then my mother asked to be told where she was. This was in the prison in Sid and she came up to one of the soldiers and asked him to inquire what had happened to me, because she was terrified because they had taken Bozidar and now they had taken me and she thought that I wouldn't come back. So I don't know whether he checked or not, but anyway she plucked up courage and strength to come and to beg him to find out where I was.

JUDGE MAY: We must adjourn now. It is the time. Witness C-1164, we have to adjourn now. Could you be back tomorrow, please, at 9.00 to conclude your evidence. Could you remember, please, also not to speak to anybody about it until it's over. Mr. Milosevic, you've got half an hour more, if you require it, for this witness.

We'll adjourn now.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at ²⁶⁹¹⁰ 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

the 18th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.