²⁷⁴¹²

Tuesday, 14 October 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. Can you see if you can get through this in 40 minutes --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: -- and that will then be three hours in all.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: MILAN MILANOVIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

Q. Witness, before the break, we had started to speak about personnel from the Serbian state security in the region. And you have already mentioned Radoslav Kostic being there. And in your statement you mentioned Branko Glusica. Where was he situated within the region? Where was his office?

A. [No interpretation]

JUDGE MAY: We're not getting a translation of that.

THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English on this channel?

JUDGE MAY: Try again.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: ²⁷⁴¹³

Q. Can you repeat your answer. We didn't get any translation of your answer. Where was Mr. Glusica sitting?

A. For a while, it was in Dalj, and then in Vukovar.

THE INTERPRETER: We're switching to another channel, Your Honours.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. And did he share an office? Did he share an office with another official from your region?

A. Yes, he did, with the chief of SUP in Vukovar.

Q. You have mentioned in your statement a certain Lemic, alias Milan Lakic. What dealings did you have with him?

A. Lemic was in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and he was in the negotiating team, mine, when we negotiated with the Croats, or rather, the Erdut agreement, when it was signed.

Q. How did he get into your team? Did you select him or did someone else decide that he should be on the team?

A. I can't remember exactly, but yes, he was a member of the team at any rate.

Q. Those personnel -- those members from the Serbian DB, to whom did they report? Do you know that?

A. I don't know that.

Q. You have described the power structure in the region, mentioning the JNA and its power and then the shift of power when Badza arrived. In the power structure in the region in Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem, what was the position of the personnel of the Serbian DB? ²⁷⁴¹⁴

A. I didn't understand your question.

Q. The Serbian DB personnel, what was its position in regard to power, influence?

A. A great deal of influence.

Q. I will now talk with you about the -- your own meetings with Mr. Milosevic. And we have to -- you have described this here in the courtroom and we cannot refer to your previous statement. When did you meet Mr. Milosevic for the first time and what was the purpose of the meeting? You do not need to find it in your statement, Mr. Milanovic. Just as you remember it.

A. Well, I met Mr. Milosevic for the first time in 1993 and 1994. The object of the meeting was going to -- the representatives of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem going to his cabinet, his offices. Goran Hadzic led the delegation. I can't remember exactly what it was that we discussed on that first meeting.

Q. Did you see Mr. Milosevic in relation to the Vance Plan at some point in time?

A. Yes, we did go.

Q. Do you recall when that was?

A. That was a little earlier on. It was a large delegation, and the topic of discussion was acceptance of the Vance Owen Plan and preparations for the arrival of the international community to the area.

Q. Did you meet Mr. Milosevic in a delegation in relation to the elections in the RSK?

A. Yes, I did ²⁷⁴¹⁵

Q. And what was -- did Mr. Milosevic request anything of you and the delegation at that time?

A. Well, the topic of the meeting were elections in Republika Srpska Krajina, and the subject was who the president would be. And Mr. Milosevic at the time placed Mr. Milan Maric in the forefront, in relation to the others.

Q. And what about Mr. Hadzic? Did he become a candidate, and what was Mr. Milosevic's position as to that fact?

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Milan Martic, with a "T."

A. At the time, it was Mr. Milosevic's position that Goran Hadzic should not be a candidate, but nonetheless he was a candidate. However, at the elections, Mr. Martic won.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Did Mr. Martic win in the first round? Do you recall?

A. No. He won in the second round of the elections, and the opposite candidate was Milan Babic.

Q. And in the first round, when Mr. Hadzic took part as a candidate, did that cause any friction between you and the Serbian MUP and others you were related to?

A. Yes. There was tension, because in the first round I did not lend my support to Milan Martic, and this was not seen as being the thing to do.

In the second round, Radovan Stojicic, Badza, prevailed upon me, to influence me to help, and Martic won. ²⁷⁴¹⁶

Q. You have described your activities as head of the negotiation team in 1995 and 1996. In this time period, did you meet Mr. Milosevic?

A. Yes, I did, several times.

Q. Would -- why would you meet him? What was the purpose of such meetings?

A. Well, the subject was preparations for talks with Croatia, the Croatian side, and the international community.

Q. Would you consult with Mr. Milosevic before you go -- you went to such negotiations and afterwards or not?

A. In most cases, yes.

Q. Were suggestions made to you how to behave during the negotiations?

A. More or less, yes.

Q. Did you ever act against these suggestions, or did you follow?

A. It depended.

Q. Yes. Can you give us an example where you did not follow?

A. Well, there was the question of who would be a member of the delegation, and we didn't agree on that score at the beginning.

Q. Yes. Can you -- can you describe what was requested, who should be in the delegation, and what happened?

A. We formed a delegation of the Srem and Baranja region for negotiations with the Croats, and Goran Hadzic was not among the members. Mr. Milosevic, however, insisted that Goran Hadzic become a member of the delegation, and that's what happened in the end.

Q. And how did Hadzic later then during the negotiations behave ^{27417 BLANK PAGE 27418} towards you?

A. Well, I can't really assess that now, but at first glance he was correct and proper, but I think he was working behind our backs.

Q. When you had conversations with Mr. Milosevic, how would you address him and how would he address you?

A. I always addressed him as "Mr. President." And he would mostly call me "Mrgud."

Q. Were you offered a Croatian peace proposal by Ambassador Galbraith at some point in time? And what did you do?

A. Yes, that's right. Ambassador Galbraith did offer a proposal from the Croatian side, and in part from the international community as well. And when he came to see me that day - and the situation was complex in Krajina - Western Slavonia, and the lower half of the Knin Krajina had fallen, militarily speaking, and the possibility existed of war breaking out in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem as well. And Ambassador Galbraith came to see me. He brought with him his plan or, rather, a draft plan, a proposal, and I said that I would accept it, accept reviewing it, in fact, and that I would give him an answer in a few days' time. However, I was called to Belgrade because on the RTS television station this was interpreted as me having signed an agreement already. So they called me to Belgrade the next day. Badza called me to attend a meeting with Mr. Milosevic, where the people present were the late Minister Sokolovic, Stanisic, Badza, and Mr. Milosevic himself. So I was there, and they asked me what I had done, whether I had signed anything. And I said -- I explained to them that I had signed nothing, ²⁷⁴¹⁹ that I had just taken the draft proposal or plan, which we would then consider and review, and then tell them that we would enter into negotiation and not outright reject it, as Martic did the Z4 plan, and the lower part of Krajina felt as a result.

Q. You actually have --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I will now turn to tab 27 of the Exhibit 549.

Q. You have actually provided the agreement, the Erdut agreement. And it's at tab 27. That was finally the end result of all the negotiations. And we do not go into details, but before signing it, did you get a message from someone to do that?, to sign it?

A. Yes. Well, this is a complicated issue. At the time of the signing of the agreement, the Serb delegation or Yugoslav delegation was in Dayton. I myself had entered the final stages of the negotiations because Tudjman didn't want to sign the Dayton Accords until the question of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was solved. And on the eve of the signing, as I state in my statement, I received a message from the delegation at Dayton, which was led by Mr. Milosevic. I received this message via the assistant foreign affairs minister, Zika Jovanovic, that I should -- to the effect that I should sign the agreement, and I received that message on Friday. I explained what happened with respect to Saturday or, rather, with respect to Friday afternoon, that from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs I went to see Badza at the MUP building and that he called Dayton up and Mr. Stanisic, and Stanisic said in his message - he sent us a telegram - I can't remember the exact words, but ²⁷⁴²⁰ I'll try and quote: "I've tried everything with the president, but we've lost Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. God save them." Badza answered to this message, "Don't you sign tomorrow. Let them -- let the president call me if he wants the agreement to be signed." And I said to him, "But Badza, if I don't sign tomorrow, they're going to attack on Sunday." I meant the Croats. And he was -- took the hard line and said, "Come and see me on Monday, unless I ring up to tell you otherwise." So nonetheless, in agreement with Galbraith and Stoltenberg, on Saturday I did sign the agreement, and after that they started to attack me. Mr. Milosevic's closest associates attacked me and criticised me for having done that, asking me why I did that, Kertes and all the rest, not the enumerate them all. So that would be that in brief.

Q. And did you meet afterwards Mr. Milosevic, and what did he tell you in relation to your signing the Dayton -- the agreement, the Erdut agreement?

A. Mr. Milosevic told me that I had done the right thing and that was the only possible option at that point in time. And he asked me whether anybody had been attacking him [as interpreted] of his associates. I kept quiet on that score and said that nobody attacked me because I considered that that was the best line to take at that time.

Q. After the Dayton -- the Erdut agreement was signed, did you continue to have meetings with Milosevic related to the implementation of the Erdut agreement?

A. Yes, I did. From time to time, I had meetings with respect to the implementation of the agreement. ²⁷⁴²¹

Q. And turning to tab 29 of the Exhibit 549, we have here an invitation to a meeting in Belgrade, and there is a reference made on top in handwriting, saying "for Mira from Branko." Can you tell us what that means, "for Mira from Branko"? Or rather, it's not handwriting, it's typed. Sorry.

A. Well, that means that this was a way of communication. The secretary of Mr. Milosevic, between her and myself. And my nickname on this occasion was Branko.

Q. Did you meet in the -- in the Serbian Presidency at a location where also there was Mr. Borislav Mikelic?

A. Yes, that's right. And I described that in my statement.

Q. But you have to describe it now for us. Tell us when it was and what happened.

A. Well, roughly that was after August 1995, when the lower part of Krajina fell. We had a meeting in the Presidency, and after the meeting Mr. Milosevic told me to stay behind, that he needed me for something. And at the meeting there were the representatives of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem present, because the lower part of Krajina had fallen, as I said. And among other things, the topic of discussion was -- Mikelic was -- and Mr. Milosevic spoke about him in adverse terms on that occasion. And when we left, after the meeting we went to another room, Mr. Mikelic was there, and Mr. Milosevic asked me to help him with something. I was a little taken aback, him having spoken about the man in derogatory terms at one meeting and asking me to help him at the next, and that he wanted to evict Babic from an office in Belgrade, from a ²⁷⁴²² commission, in fact, and have Mikelic take his place. And that was done.

Q. Why did he ask you to do -- get involved?

A. Well, I don't know, actually. I was wondering, but probably because I was close to Badza, so he thought this would smooth the way, because otherwise Badza did not have a good attitude towards Mikelic himself.

Q. Were you asked to see Mr. Milosevic in April 1996, an occasion that ended your career in the region?

A. Yes, that's right. Around about that time I did go to see Mr. Milosevic, and I felt that something was wrong, because for the first time after a long time I did not make up the delegation which would go to see the president. But nonetheless, I did take all the people that I considered were important, and they did attend the meeting.

Q. And what was requested of you on that meeting?

A. I was requested, as Mr. Milosevic put it - and Goran Hadzic said this too - that I should no -- that I was no longer necessary and that he had quite a few comments and criticisms, nor was I desirable, and that I had to be replaced. And I said, "All right, go ahead and replace me." But they couldn't replace me, and that is why they proposed a meeting, for this to be done in Belgrade. I did not agree to that; however, at Mr. Milosevic's proposal we withdrew the next day in the morning at 10.00 from our posts; Kojic Ilija, Slavko Dokmanovic, and myself, we withdrew.

Q. You said that they could not replace you. Why could they not replace you?

A. Well, I can't actually say why. Had they been able to do so, ^{27423 BLANK PAGE 27424} they would have done that. Well, probably they didn't have the necessary power and authority. They needed support from Mr. Milosevic, and they got that support.

Q. In relation to this criticism against you, was there a -- the disconnection of a pipeline between Djeletovci and Pancevo involved?

A. [No interpretation]

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're not getting the interpretation again. Could you try again, please, Mr. Milanovic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. That was one of the criticisms made against me, but it was not the right one, that I had done it on my own arbitrarily, turned off the Djeletovci-Pancevo pipeline. I did this in collaboration -- in agreement with Milutinovic, who at that time was the foreign minister, and Tomic, who was at the time the director of the oil company in Serbia. As the embargo had been lifted after Dayton, Serbia was able to import oil. And for it to be able to import oil, our pipeline had to be extinguished for the pipeline passing through Croatia to Pancevo to be able to be operational.

Q. You have described in your statement the -- your frequent disputes with Milan Martic.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to that, I would like to refer to tab 28 of the Exhibit binder 549 as an example to this dispute with Milan Martic, and we do not need to go further into this.

Q. Just this one question: Did Mr. Milosevic call you in regard of disputes with Milan Martic in relation to the officer Sladojevic?

A. Yes, that's right. Mr. Milosevic called me, probably not ²⁷⁴²⁵ personally, but his secretary did, and the topic of discussion was the commander of the 11th Corps. That was the corps of Srem and Baranja, the Srem-Baranja Corps. And Milan Martic wanted to change -- replace Sladojevic. He had wanted to do so several months prior to that. At a meeting, this was agreed although I did not accept this decision and Sladojevic's replacement did not take place.

The next time, several months later, he probably complained to Mr. Milosevic and said that he would like to make some personnel changes in the 11th Corps but that he couldn't do so because I was in the way. So I was called up, and Mr. Milosevic told me that Martic -- that this was something that Martic wanted to do but that he was having problems with me and that I should give in, which I did, and the replacement took place after a brief period of time. And instead of General Sladojevic, we had General Loncar.

Q. Did you in June 1995 intercept a transport of 8 million dinars from the SDK Ilok to Knin? And if so, did Mr. Milosevic get involved in this?

A. Yes, this did happen. One evening I was called up by Slavko Dokmanovic and the director of the SDK in Vukovar, and this was around 12.00 in the evening, that the operation was underway of withdrawing money from the SDK in Ilok and to have it illegally transferred to Knin, without any lawful or legal decision of the Krajina region, of the Krajina bank. I checked this out. I believed Dokmanovic and the director of the SDK of Vukovar when they said that it was illegal, and I reported it to the police, and the police stopped the kombi at the border carrying 8 ²⁷⁴²⁶ million dinars, and these funds were returned to the area. Mr. Milosevic had no part in this at all.

Q. Did he call you on this occasion and inquire?

A. After a certain period of time, Martic requested the money, and he complained with the president, and this was a topic discussed at a meeting. However, we didn't enter into the details of it.

Q. During the preparation of your testimony, did you listen to a variety of intercepted conversation?

A. I did.

Q. And did you sign a declaration related to the voices that you recognised?

A. I did.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that's the special exhibit binder 551, and the first tab is actually this declaration that the witness made.

Q. Did you know these people that you recognised from personal conversations and also from their public appearances?

A. Mostly from personal contacts, but a fewer number from the media.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really think it's absurd for such a witness to confirm intercepted conversations. Most of these conversations are between Radovan Karadzic and Jovica Stanisic. They're not even very important. But that is not the point. What is the point is that he cannot be considered qualified to say whether those conversations ²⁷⁴²⁷ are authentic or not. He had nothing to do with Karadzic. He may have met Stanisic three times in his life.

JUDGE MAY: That's all a matter of evidence, and the witness can go -- give evidence about the knowledge which he has or doesn't have about these speakers. No doubt the Prosecution are going to cover that. And if --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

Q. Did -- how familiar were you with the voice of Stanisic, as an example?

A. Within a range of 1 to 5, I would say 4. I would give it 4, a mark of 4.

Q. Did you know him from personal -- did you know his voice from personal contacts you had?

A. Yes.

Q. And in relation to Kertes?

A. The same would apply to him.

Q. We have already addressed some of these people, but what about Legija? How did -- how were you -- how familiar were you with his voice?

A. I know his voice well.

Q. From personal contacts?

A. Yes.

Q. And the person Simatovic, that you identified, how do you know his voice?

A. I know him personally too.

Q. And in relation to Karadzic, how would you know his voice? ²⁷⁴²⁸

A. I met him only once, in 1991, but I know that voice from the media.

Q. And in relation to Sokolovic?

A. I met him several times too.

Q. And Simatovic, Franko Simatovic?

A. We've already said that I met him several times.

Q. And lastly, Mladic, General Mladic?

A. I never met him, but he has a specific voice recognisable through the media.

Q. In relation to these intercepts, I just want to ask you in relation to tab 10 of that binder. There is an intercepted conversation between Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic referring to the persons Ratko and Vladan. Who would that be? Can you help us with that? It's a very short -- yes, please. If you recall who that is. It's tab 10, and it's a very brief intercept. And just the reference to Ratko and Vladan.

A. I remember that conversation because it wasn't long ago. And I assume from the conversation that they were referring to certain specialised legal matters and that references were made to Ratko. And what was the other name? I forgot.

Q. Vladan. Vladan.

A. And Vladan. Ratko Markovic would be the vice-premier, and Kutlesic, who was also a counsellor -- I can't remember his exact position. But I know Mr. Ratko Markovic in person, and I know that he worked in the government as the vice-president of the government or ^{27429 BLANK PAGE 27430} vice-premier.

Q. And you're speaking of the government of Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. And in two of the conversations where we have Arkan and Legija, there is a code number used as number 99. Do you know what code number 99 refers to?

A. It was Arkan's code during the war.

Q. And in tab 23 --

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could tell me where we can find Vladan and Ratko.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's in tab 10.

JUDGE KWON: I couldn't find it.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, you have to actually look into the B/C/S version, because the correct -- the correct spelling is in the B/C/S version. And in the English version there is a -- a mistake.

JUDGE KWON: Was it translated as "Laden" and "Ratio"?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and when you see the original, it's Vladan and Ratko. So there is a wrong translation to that effect. I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that.

And the two intercepts that I just mentioned with the code number, that's tab 21 and tab 23.

Q. And in relation to tab 23, on the -- actually, at the end of this conversation, there is reference made to a -- a person Bojovic. Do you know to which -- do you know this person Bojovic and to which formation he ²⁷⁴³¹ belongs? It's a conversation between -- it's tab 23, a conversation between Legija and the headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard. It's actually the last -- the last line before the greetings.

A. I remember that conversation because Legija was speaking to an unknown person. I assume it was the secretary of Mr. Raznjatovic. And she says, "Say hello to Bojovic," so I assume this applies to a soldier who was in the field together with Legija.

Q. But you are not familiar with a soldier Bojovic among the Arkan's?

A. Well, in a haze I could sort of recollect, but I can't remember exactly.

Q. Just a very few -- a final question in relation to the Skorpions. You have described the Skorpions being involved and sent to the Bihac region. When they were in this region, to whom were they subordinated then?

A. They were subordinated to the command of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. And to get to the battlefield in Bihac, would they have to cross through Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. Were the Serbian authorities aware of that movement?

A. Yes. But we thought at the time that we -- there were -- that no one was violating any agreement, as that was one army.

Q. What do you mean "one army"?

A. I'm referring to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. ²⁷⁴³² The region of Srem and Baranja was physically separated from the lower part of Krajina and there no was no other way of reaching the lower part of Krajina.

Q. And you also mentioned the Skorpions being present in Trnovo in Bosnia in 1994. How did the Skorpions get there? Would they have to go through Serbia?

A. Yes, yes. Again, the Republika Srpska was physically separated and there was no way of reaching it except through the Republic of Serbia.

Q. And while the Skorpions were in Trnovo, to whom were they subordinated?

A. To the MUP of the Republika Srpska.

Q. You described the deployment of the Skorpions in Kosovo, and especially the first deployment when you accompanied them a short way. At that time, was there a mobilisation in Serbia underway?

A. Yes. The Skorpions went to Kosovo seven or eight days after the NATO bombing. And on the first day of the bombing, in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a state of war was proclaimed, which meant that the mobilisation was proclaimed and ongoing.

Q. And why did Medic call you instead of just getting mobilised with the JNA -- or the VJ, in this case?

A. Medic called me because he didn't want him and his men, the men he knew from Slavonia, to go under the command of the army of Yugoslavia. He wanted to go as part of the MUP of Serbia.

Q. And finally, Ovcara. You have described how you heard and got aware of the Ovcara mass grave and how you informed Colonel Grahovac about ²⁷⁴³³ this fact. In relation to this event, we have tab 32 of the Exhibit 549. And it's a report, actually, from Colonel Grahovac in relation to his findings. It's the last -- it's the last tab in the binder that you have. And in the last paragraph, there is a reference saying, "According to our intelligence, bodies have allegedly been moved from Ovcara site." It's on the last page, the last paragraph. And -- it's the last paragraph, the bodies. Do you know who -- if bodies were removed and who did that?

A. Only on the basis of rumours. But this was never proven, and it is well known that in 1998 the bodies were found.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I have a little bit -- or I have taken a little bit too much time. I'm sorry.

JUDGE MAY: Just deal, if you would, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff -- let's just tidy this up. The exhibit binder for the intercepts 551, marked for identification so far, of course, like the other intercepts, tab 2 is the compact disk.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And at the moment the Registry don't seem to have it, we don't seem to have it. Obviously it -- that should be tidied up and we should give it --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We have copies just made.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At the moment.

JUDGE MAY: Well, hand them in, if you would, at the break.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. ²⁷⁴³⁴

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And you have seen that I have skipped two documents because there was no time to deal with that, but they are not so crucial.

JUDGE MAY: I can see that. If the legal officer would come up, please.

[Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin, Mr. May, could I at least know what's under tab 2 on this disk that no one has received, and now it is being tendered into evidence following the testimony of this witness? Could I at least be told what it is?

JUDGE MAY: It's the -- according to the document -- yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: As I understand it, it's the compact disk containing all the intercepts.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Exactly, Your Honour. The declaration is tab 1, the CD is tab 2, and tab 3 to 27 is -- are the transcripts. And on the CD there is actually in the order how they were played the -- the intercepted conversations are played.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Just for the record, so it is quite clear that not a single of ^{27435 BLANK PAGE 27436} those -- one of those conversations was played here in the presence of the witness.

JUDGE MAY: No. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, would you deal with the point that the accused is making. He doesn't seem to have understood the position. Were these intercepts played to the witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's true.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, they were all played to the witness in the order of the declaration and also in the order of the CD. It's -- it would just take too much time to have it all produced here in the courtroom.

JUDGE MAY: We're not -- we're not having them played here, for that reason. But he signed a declaration that he's identified the voices.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, he did that. And it is indicated exactly which voice he recognised and which not. And he does not make any comments further than that in the declaration.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milanovic, tell me, to the best of your recollection, when did tensions start in Eastern Slavonia?

A. Tensions in Eastern Slavonia started in May 1991.

Q. Was there any tension during the time of the elections, prior to the elections in 1990?

A. Yes, there was some tension in 1990 and in 1991 in the area of the Republic of Croatia. ²⁷⁴³⁷

Q. And what was happening in 1990?

A. It is well known that the elections were being prepared in the Republic of Croatia. It is also common knowledge that the HDZ party came into power, headed by Tudjman. It is also well known that from the constitution the Serbs were thrown out as a nation.

Q. When were they eliminated from the constitution?

A. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was several months after the HDZ came to power.

Q. Very well. Now, when the constitution was changed and a number of laws promulgated - I assume you remember that - what was the effect this had among the Serb population? I'm not talking about the whole of Croatia, I'm just talking about the area that you are familiar with, that is, the area of Eastern Slavonia. So on the basis of your own knowledge, not on the basis of the newspapers or political debates that were going on.

A. The effect among people was fear as to what would happen next.

Q. Would you please describe that fear for me, what kind of fear it was.

A. People feared because the Serbs had still not forgotten 1941 and they felt that problems could occur on an ethnic basis, that they might lose their rights, such as the right to employment and the other rights they enjoyed, and people were afraid and they started to organise themselves into their own national parties.

Q. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, when did the first cases of Serbs being fired from public services occur? For example, the ²⁷⁴³⁸ police and other public services.

A. Regarding public services, I can't know everything but I can remember with respect to the police. I think these happenings occurred in January, February, March 1991.

Q. Were the Serbs expelled from the police en masse?

A. I can't say that they were dismissed en masse, but they were fired.

Q. So from the beginning of 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, tell me, when were the first acts of violence against Serbs in Eastern Slavonia? Not counting these expulsions from work but physical violence, physical attacks.

A. A major incident occurred on the 2nd of May in Borovo Selo, when the Croatian police came and there was an armed conflict at the time.

Q. And before Borovo Selo, were there individual incidents, murders, cases of people disappearing that you're aware of?

A. I can't remember.

Q. When was that in Borovo Selo?

A. On the 2nd of May, 1991.

Q. Were you in Borovo Selo at the time?

A. No, I was not.

Q. And how far is Borovo Selo from your place? What did you learn about that? What had happened in Borovo Selo in 1991?

A. Well, my place is about 20 kilometres away from Borovo Selo, and I learnt that the Croatian police left from Osijek and Vinkovci, that they ²⁷⁴³⁹ went in two buses - or several buses, I can't remember exactly - and that they started out to take down the Serb flag, which had been flying in the centre of Borovo Selo on the local community building.

Q. And what happened then?

A. There was an armed conflict.

Q. You mentioned the elections in 1990. You took part in those elections; is that right?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember that in Eastern Slavonia the largest number of the Serb electorate voted for the League of Communists of Croatia, the SPD party, because there were deputies on that -- those parties' lists that were elected to the Sabor, or Croatian parliament, from that region? Is that right?

A. At those elections in Slavonia, the Serbian Democratic Party had not been set up yet; that is to say, the party for which the Serbs voted in the other parts of Croatia where it had been established. And so for the most part the Serbs voted for Racan.

Q. All right. Now, did the citizens of Serb ethnicity vote for the League of Communists of Croatia, the SDP, believing that the party was in favour of Yugoslavia and that it was against the war, that it was in favour of peace, in fact?

A. That party declared itself in that way at that time.

Q. And how -- now, I'm talking about you as a citizen. How did this affect you, your friends, your neighbours, the citizens of Eastern Slavonia? How did this change in the constitution affect you, that the ²⁷⁴⁴⁰ Serbs had been expelled from the constitution, that the chequer-board emblem was introduced, and all the rest of it? How did that affect and influence you, for example?

A. Well, we didn't feel at ease.

Q. You didn't feel comfortable? Is that it?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember when in Croatia the volunteer detachments began to be formed or, rather, the different paramilitary formations which were nationalistic and very hostile towards the Serb population? Since when do you know of their existence, for example?

A. Well, roughly from the middle of 1991.

Q. Is it true that already in the summer of 1990 that mass provocations started, pressure exerted on the JNA and its members, their family members, and so on and so forth? Would that be true?

A. As far as I knew at the time, there were individual cases of that kind.

Q. And do you remember that in the course of 1990 over 70 cases of provocation and physical attacks were registered against members of the JNA?

A. No, I don't remember that piece of information.

Q. All right, then. So you just remember the individual attacks; is that right?

A. I've already said that.

Q. All right. Very well. Fine. Now, tell me this, please: Before the active conflicts, such as the one that started in Borovo Selo, et ^{27441 BLANK PAGE 27442} cetera, do you recall that the members of MUP stormed the police stations in which there were mostly Serbs and later on in the evening hours they confiscated weapons which existed there for the reserve police force, new police stations were opened up, mostly where the Serbs lived or in a mixed environment, with a mixed population? Do you remember those events?

A. I do remember those events, and they went parallel to this situation: The Yugoslav People's Army confiscated weapons from the Territorial Defence on the one side and the MUP of Croatia confiscated weapons from its reserve force, which was predominantly populated by the Serbs.

Q. What you want to say is in the areas where there was a Serb population; is that where the weapons were taken away from the reserve police force? Is that right?

A. Yes, roughly.

Q. Very well. Now, is it also true that following orders from the Presidency of the SFRY, which were common knowledge that, the Serbs in Croatia, especially in the Knin Krajina, they returned their weapons; whereas, the Croatian forces did not do so?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. And do you remember that at the time certain mobilisation had taken place into formations that were established, the Croatian National Guards Corps, for example, and the reserve composition of the MUP of Croatia? Do you remember that?

A. All I remember is that the MUP of the Republic of Croatia reinforced its reserve composition in the police. ²⁷⁴⁴³

Q. And have you heard of the National Guards Corps, the ZNG?

A. Later on, when there was active operation, when that started I heard about it. But I don't know when this was actually established.

Q. All right. Now, tell me this: Is it true that the arming of the Serbs became intensified only after the SFRY Presidency meeting held on the 12th of March, 1991, when the proposal was rejected from the Secretary of National Defence to introduce a state of emergency in the country and when the attempt fell through made by the Presidency in December 1990 to disarm the paramilitaries in the SFRY?

A. Well, it is my position that the Serbs started arming themselves when they saw that there was -- that they couldn't count on political negotiations and that the possibility of war breaking out was there. I think that that's when this parallel armament took place, that is to say, the Serbs began arming themselves and so did the Croats.

Q. All right. And do you know when this illegal import of weapons or purchase of weapons for the Croatian paramilitaries began? Did you know anything about that?

A. I did hear about it, but I can't say for sure what the date was when this started, but I do know that Croatia imported arms through Hungary and our army let that happen. And I also know that there was a plane of some kind which landed at the airport and then this -- these weapons were confiscated. I think that it landed at Zagreb airport, and then it was forced to be taken and go on to Belgrade. I remember those two details.

Q. Well, do you remember when the campaign started, launched by the ²⁷⁴⁴⁴ Croatian authorities, with respect to the blockade of military JNA facilities on the territory of Croatia?

A. I remember that there was a blockade. Now, when it took place exactly, I can't remember. But I assume at the same time that you asked a question before this, as the political negotiations fell through, the situation became more complicated.

Q. All right. Now, in your view, would you say that the population - and we're talking about the Serb population - was exposed realistically to a danger of its life? Was this a realistic threat, faced with a situation of that kind, in the general mood that prevailed at the time, after the enactment of the constitution, after they had been dismissed from their work, after all the pressure, and finally after the physical conflicts, was this fear justified?

A. The fear was justified, both on the Serb side and on the Croatian side.

Q. Well, tell me, please: What caused fear in the Serb population of Eastern Slavonia?

A. Well, there was fear in Eastern Slavonia due to the events that came to pass in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, for example. That caused quite a lot of fear.

Q. All right. And is it true that the JNA from the very beginning, that is to say, from those first conflicts, endeavoured to separate the conflicting parties or, rather, to calm the situation down?

A. At the very beginning, yes. However, as the political negotiations showed that there was no hope for success, so the Croats ²⁷⁴⁴⁵ started leaving the army and the army was replenished with Serbs from the regular formations or from the reservists, so that the army in fact became Serb more and more and on the Serb side.

Q. All right. And is it true that it was precisely due to the efforts made by the JNA to prevent conflicts and to stand between the two sides that in the field, on the ground where you were, that your various local volunteer detachments had a very negative relationship towards the army and criticised it and said that they were traitors precisely because the army wanted to be neutral and to separate the two conflicting parties? I'm sure you remember those events.

A. Yes, there were cases of that kind.

Q. At that time, the JNA was deployed throughout the territory of Yugoslavia; isn't that right, Mr. Milanovic?

A. If we're talking about the period up to the 2nd of May, 1991, then the answer is yes.

Q. Well, wasn't it there throughout 1991 as well?

A. I'm not quite sure actually when the events in Slovenia took place.

Q. All right. We're not talking about Slovenia now, we're talking about Croatia. There's somebody else who's going to talk about Slovenia. Tell me now, please: You were later the deputy or assistant defence minister, isn't that right, so you delved in politics in a way, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Isn't it true that in that year of 1990 and 1991 that the army ²⁷⁴⁴⁶ did not meddle in politics at all and it exclusively dealt with its own affairs and assignments, the protection of its units and efforts to separate the two conflicting parties to prevent an all-out conflict from breaking out?

A. As for 1990, I don't know, I can't say. But as to the end of 1991 or, rather, the middle of 1991, that would be true, yes.

Q. All right. Thank you. Now, is it true that the relationship of the local Serb population at that time towards the JNA was such that they were ready even to enter into a conflict with members of the JNA to prevent military equipment and armament being taken away from the territory of Croatia?

A. I think that in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, there were no such instances.

Q. And is it true that by the end of -- until the end of 1991 the army was considered to be the army of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that it wasn't a Serb army, and that its cadres and staff were not made up of only Serb members? I assume you know that.

A. Well, it was mixed -- was it mixed?

Q. Do you remember that in April 1992, in the JNA there were still about 600 soldiers who were Croats; although in January 1992, for example, Croatia had already been recognised internationally, by the international community, the famous premature recognition of Croatia came about. Do you remember that piece of information, perhaps?

A. I don't remember that, but I do know that there were Croats still in the army. ^{27447 BLANK PAGE 27448}

Q. And do you remember this piece of information relating to the air force; that more than half the fliers were not Serbs or Montenegrins, that they were members of other ethnic groups, in fact?

A. I didn't have that piece of information available.

Q. Very well. And when the conflict started in Croatia, under the circumstances that you are testifying about, was this situation, generally speaking, in that area a situation of some kind of a civil war?

A. I don't know how I would call it, but the war broke out.

Q. But I'm asking you, was it a civil war? And let me clarify my question: Did anyone commit aggression?

JUDGE MAY: He's just answered the question. He doesn't know. And characterising the war, what type of war, will be a matter for the Trial Chamber. It's not a matter for the witness. Now, let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these are historical facts. You can decide whatever you will.

JUDGE MAY: No, it's not a historical fact. It's the type of war it was. It's a matter of interpretation and may even be a matter of law, which we'll have to decide. It's not for the witness to say. You can ask him if he saw any Serbs attack Croatia or something of the sort if you wish, if that's your point you want to make. But you can't ask him about characterising matters -- what may be matters of law.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked him whether he saw Croatian paramilitary units attacking Serbs, and he said he did, he had seen them. Serb settlements, and he said yes. Now, if you want me to ask him what you want ... ²⁷⁴⁴⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm going to ask you, Mr. Milanovic, did the Serbs commit aggression against Croatia?

A. I stand by my earlier answer.

Q. You can't give me a direct answer? Do you believe that there is any possibility of saying that the Serbs committed aggression against Croatia?

A. I have answered the question put to me. Now, this is already politics.

Q. Very well. Tell me, is it true that refugees from your areas in particular - and one might say from the whole of Croatia - started moving out in large waves already in October 1991?

A. Yes, even before that.

Q. What were those refugees fleeing from? Mostly to Serbia; isn't that right?

A. Mostly to Serbia; yes, they fled there. And at the beginning of August, active combat operations started in the area and the Yugoslav People's Army joined in, as well as the Serbs, and on the other side were the Croats. Then there were large numbers of refugees on both sides.

Q. Very well, Mr. Milanovic. In paragraph 3, you say that your family fled to Serbia; isn't that right, as refugees?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. So this happened as early as May 1991, didn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. How many such families started fleeing already in May 1991? ²⁷⁴⁵⁰ Surely it wasn't just your family.

A. In your previous question, you said October 1991, and I answered earlier than that. And after the events of the 2nd of May, quite a large number of women and children went to Serbia. And then they would come back and go away again, and so on, but most of them left in August 1991.

Q. And is it true that through the JNA you endeavoured to reach a non-aggression agreement with the Croatian side?

A. Yes. Everything that I have said in my statement is true.

Q. I am unable, like the other side, to ask you whether what is written in your statement is correct. I have to put questions to you. So you endeavoured through the JNA to reach a non-attack agreement with Croatia; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But in spite of that, these members of the National Guards Corps, of which you don't know when it was formed, attacked you. And in paragraph 3, you mention this. You say, "The National Guards Corps attacked us. We were attacked by the ZNG," et cetera. So in spite of your endeavours to come to an agreement that you wouldn't attack one another, you were attacked nevertheless?

A. Yes.

Q. And your village is called Palaca; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Explain to me, please, since you say that a TV crew from ZDF from Germany was filming the consequences of the attack on Palaca from Laslovo, and they showed this on television as if it was the opposite situation, as ²⁷⁴⁵¹ if you from Palaca had attacked Laslovo; is that right, Mr. Milanovic?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So they fraudulently presented that the Serbs had attacked the Croatian side; whereas, the reality was the opposite. Is that right?

A. Yes. I've already answered that.

Q. Don't say to me, "I've already answered that question." Just tell me, was that a falsification?

A. Yes, that's right.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. We waste time. And your comment to the witness was unfair. He had answered the question. He'd said what he could see. Now, whether any inference is to be drawn from that is not a matter for the witness. So again, it's an example of you trying to argue with him all the time and then rebuking him wrongly for not answering the question. He was quite right. You could put -- make your points and then move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move on. I just wanted to establish what the witness has said, that the representation was the opposite, that the Serbian side had attacked the Croats instead of the other way around.

JUDGE MAY: We can understand the point. You don't need to repeat it all the time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not repeating it all the time, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that in May 1991, Mr. Milanovic, in the area in which ²⁷⁴⁵² you were there were Croatian troops and your village were shelled daily by about 600 projectiles? Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. It started around the 26th of June and onwards.

Q. So in view of such a situation, is it true that the Serbs were fleeing from the area because of the pressure and the war operations engaged in by the forces of the opposite side?

A. To be quite precise in giving my answer to this question, Palaca was on the very separation line between the Serbs and the Croats, and it was the first place on the route from Zagreb-Osijek to Vukovar. And fighting had started around Vukovar at that time, and as the fighting for Vukovar started in which the Yugoslav People's Army took an active part, so the attacks increased by the Croatian side against the first defence lines towards the west.

Q. Wait a moment, please. So this -- this village of yours was mostly Serb, wasn't it?

A. Yes, mostly.

Q. And the next village towards the west is Laslovo, which has a majority Croatian population?

A. No, Hungarian population.

Q. I see, Hungarian. So tell me, how was this confrontation line established? Those settlements have been there for hundreds of years or decades, at least; is that right?

A. I don't know whether this was any coincidence, but roughly since the events in Borovo Selo, a battalion of the Yugoslav People's Army ^{27453 BLANK PAGE 27454} pulled out of Osijek and came to Palaca and stayed there until April 1992, and that is how, in my judgement, the line was formed.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We must now adjourn. It's time for the break. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Milanovic, do you remember the end of October, or to be more precise, the 31st of October, 1991, when 15 villages were cleansed of the municipality of Grubisno Polje, 15 Serb villages?

A. I do remember that event. Only I have not remembered the exact date, but that is true.

Q. And do you remember the 13th of December, when more than 100 settlements in the municipalities of Slatina, Daruvar, Slavonska Pozega, were also cleansed? This is something that you should be aware of.

A. I am aware of those events in Western Slavonia, but I wasn't there, and I heard about them and I don't know the exact number.

Q. And are you familiar with data on destroyed Serbian churches or the events around Pakrac, Pakracka Poljana, the mass execution of Serbs in Marino Selo and Pakracka Poljana? Do you know about that?

A. From the media, yes.

Q. What were you at the time when this was happening? What was the position that you held?

A. If this was before the 19th of December, then I was assistant ²⁷⁴⁵⁵ minister for transport. If it was after the 19th of December, 1991, I was Assistant for Defence.

Q. And you were only informed from the media even though you were an assistant minister?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, did you hear of the Operation Flash and how many Serbs were killed on that occasion?

A. I heard of the Operation Flash, and I do know that Serbs were killed, but I don't know exactly how many.

Q. And did you hear of the killing of women and children on that occasion as well?

A. Yes, I did hear about it.

Q. And tell me, do you have any knowledge of the number of people - and I mean Serbs - how many thousands of them were deported from those areas on that occasion?

A. They say between 150.000 and 200.000. Now, what the exact figure is, I don't know.

Q. Do you have any direct knowledge as to the number of camps for Serbs in Croatia during the war?

A. I do know that there were camps, but I don't know how many.

Q. Do you have any idea how many Serbs were held in those camps?

A. I don't have any idea, but I do know that there were Serbs held there.

Q. Very well. Since you mentioned Plitvice in paragraph 5 of your statement, what happened at Plitvice and when? ²⁷⁴⁵⁶

A. As far as I can recollect, this was in August 1990, when a Serb delegation was going to a meeting. Whether it was in Knin or Lika, I don't know exactly. And they were arrested there, a couple of Serbs, headed by Goran Hadzic.

Q. And those Serbs who were arrested on that occasion, had they committed any kind of violence or anything like that due to which they needed to be arrested?

A. As far as I know, they did not commit any act of violence which would warrant their arrest.

Q. And why were they arrested, then?

A. I can only assume that Croatia knew that Goran Hadzic and this group that was arrested were politically active in the area of Slavonia and Krajina, and that is why they arrested them.

Q. Were they members of the Serbian Democratic Party at the time?

A. I think they were at the time.

Q. Was the Serbian Democratic Party registered in a regular fashion with the Croatian authorities as a political party?

A. I think that it wasn't registered in the territory -- territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, but I am sure that it was registered in Knin. And it was acting as a party, and it participated in the multi-party elections in Knin, Donji Lapac, and other places. Yes, in those places but not in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Plitvice was in the area where it was registered; isn't that right?

A. Yes. ²⁷⁴⁵⁷

Q. Ask do you remember raids on the 2nd of March, 1991, when 600 members of the special MUP forces raided Serb houses, searched them, and mistreated their inhabitants?

A. This did not happen in Slavonia. I don't know whether it occurred in the lower part of Krajina. I'm not familiar with it.

Q. So you do not know about any event that did not take place in your area; is that right?

A. Some of them, yes, as of the 19th of December, 1991.

Q. And do you know that in the environs of Pokrovac [as interpreted] the Croatian forces opened fire on military columns without any reason, when even the city hospital was hit? Do you remember those events? This was in Pakrac.

A. I don't remember that particular event, but I know that JNA columns were attacked.

Q. Now, when that conflict occurred in Plitvice, between members of the National Guards Corps and the local Serbs, was the role of the JNA merely to separate them?

A. I don't know whether the JNA was involved in Plitvice in 1990. I'm not sure about that.

Q. Very well. And tell me, the events in Plitvice, were they the cause for the formation of the Serbian National Council?

A. I'm not quite sure, but that could be so.

Q. And when was the Serbian National Council formed? Was it after Plitvice?

A. I can't remember the exact date. I wasn't a member of the ²⁷⁴⁵⁸ Serbian National Council at the time. But it was roughly in that period of 1990.

Q. In paragraph 5, you say, "After the events in Plitvice in August 1990 ..." and then you mention the names, the Serbian National Council was formed and Goran Hadzic was the president. You say for yourself that you were elected in September or somewhat earlier. I think it was at Milenko Zivkovic's suggestion.

A. Yes, the first part was in 1990, and the second part that you mentioned was in 1991.

Q. Since you mention events in Vukovar, tell me, please, is it true that before the JNA intervened, the barracks in Vukovar was blocked by the National Guards Corps and cut off so that soldiers and officers for 20 days went without electricity, water, and supplies?

A. It is true. With the beginning of the conflict in the territory of the town of Vukovar and its surroundings, the barracks found itself under siege.

Q. And is it true that apart from being blocked for 20 days, it was also attacked with various shells and already on the 14th of September, 1991, among JNA members there were casualties, dead and wounded?

A. As far as I can remember, I know that there were conflicts. Now, the exact number of dead and wounded, I don't know.

Q. But you do know that there were dead and wounded.

A. Yes. I say that I do know that there were dead and wounded, but I don't know how many.

Q. Was this already in September? ^{27459 BLANK PAGE 27460}

A. August, end of August, September, sometime around then.

Q. And do you remember that General Kadijevic tasked Admiral Brovet, who was his deputy, to inform the European Troika and Lord Carrington about this, who was at the time the chairman of the Conference on Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, I do remember. And I think that Admiral Brovet did come to the area and engaged in negotiations between the JNA, the Serbs, and the Croats, with some other members of the Presidency of Yugoslavia.

Q. And how much time elapsed after those incidents, that is, the blocking of the barracks, the casualties in the barracks; how much after that did the JNA intervene to deblock the barracks in relation to Vukovar?

A. As far as I can remember, the JNA participated in lifting the blockade of the barracks and in liberating Vukovar from the end of August 1991 until the 18th of November, 1991, when the town of Vukovar actually fell.

Q. And is it true that in Vukovar there was no preconceived plan on the part of the Serbs and the JNA, that the JNA forces in Vukovar sought to deblock the barracks, that they were constantly fired at and the JNA soldiers only responded to that fire?

A. I think that was so at the beginning, but later on the decision was taken to attack the town of Vukovar itself and liberate it from the Croatian forces.

Q. All right. Now, as you've mentioned Ovcara, tell me what you knew about the events at Ovcara.

A. At that time, when Ovcara took place, I knew nothing about it. ²⁷⁴⁶¹ Several months later, however, upon the insistence of the international community and mostly at that time Mrs. Albright -- and she was the United States ambassador to the United Nations at the time, and she came to the area and asked around, whether there was anything there. So at that time, it was difficult to learn anything. And after talking to me sometime at the beginning of 1991, when she returned to the United Nations she asked that UN forces be sent there, and they were deployed and the forces were there until 1997 or 1998, when there was the digging up at Ovcara and the discovery of the bodies there.

Q. All right. And is it true that you had no information about the events linked to Ovcara at the time?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Is it already -- also correct that you tried to learn about those events and to do so you talked to a large number of people? Is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And the answers you were given from the locals of Vukovar is that there was nothing there.

A. Correct.

Q. So at that time, you didn't know anything about that either, did you?

A. At that time, I knew nothing, because the town of Vukovar was cut off from the area I was in - let's call it the Erdut area - until Vukovar was liberated. And that took place during the liberation of Vukovar and it was skilfully concealed. ²⁷⁴⁶²

Q. Well, let's make a slight digression here. You were the main source of information that you gave to Radovan Stojicic, is that right, about the events in those parts?

A. Correct.

Q. And since you knew nothing about Ovcara, I assume that Radovan Stojicic could not have known anything either. Is that right?

A. At that time, while he was in the region, I don't think he knew anything about Ovcara, no.

Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, you, in fact, when Albright asked you to have the UN forces sent there in order to secure the area, you told her that you had nothing against that. You gave your permission, and then the UN soldiers took up their positions in the locality. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the political position taken by the leadership was to allow the UN to control the area, including the Ovcara area.

A. According to the Vance Owen Plan, yes, that would be it.

Q. Is it also true that according to what you knew about Ovcara, that the JNA or the MUP of Serbia had nothing to do with it, or anybody else under the command or control of the JNA or MUP of Serbia or generally the leadership in Serbia?

A. I said that Radovan Stojicic had nothing to do with it. I didn't say the JNA. The JNA in that particular area was stationed there. There was an army brigade there and the entire region or area, if we call it Srem, that is, the south of Vukovar, was under the control of the Yugoslav People's Army. And that was its area. ²⁷⁴⁶³

Q. Did you ever learn that any of the members of the JNA were at Ovcara when all this happened?

A. I don't even know to this day what actually happened at Ovcara, who committed what took place there, and especially then. I had no idea then at all.

Q. All right. Now, what can you tell us about Lovas? According to what you learnt, as far as I am able to conclude, the JNA had nothing to do -- or any individual could have been under the control of the JNA or linked to Serbia at all in any way with respect to anybody from Serbia.

A. Well, the same is true for Lovas as is true for Ovcara. A state of war had been proclaimed, war law was prevalent, and all the civilians and everybody bearing arms, whether the TO or the reservists or whoever, volunteers, they were under the command of the JNA.

Q. But you set up your own Territorial Defence at the time, did you not, in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, in fact?

A. Yes, we did. But it was always subordinated to the Yugoslav People's Army and acted under the command of the JNA, from August until the end of the war operations.

Q. And what do you consider to be the end of the war operations?

A. To my mind, the end of the war operations was the end of November 1991, in the area of Slavonia. Now, of course, there were certain places where active operations ended earlier on and others where it went on later.

Q. All right, Mr. Milanovic. Can we take it that you're not challenging the fact that after November 1991 there were no operations in ²⁷⁴⁶⁴ the area? Right up until the signing of the Erdut agreement. So to all intents and purposes, there was no war in the area.

A. There wasn't a war, but there was sporadic -- there were sporadic operations.

Q. What kind of sporadic operations?

A. Well, for example, the Croatian army would sometimes fire a shell at our side, and we would retaliate. So sporadic gunfire. It will never be quite clear who did what first, but it was between the two sides. And then, for example, there was some small mortar attacks on the Miljevac plateau, the Maslenicki bridge, Western Slavonia, et cetera.

Q. Well, yes. That isn't your particular area, and we'll come to that later on. But can we take it, can we note that once the areas under UN protection were established and the UN protection zone was in fact established, which covered Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, once the UNPAs were set up, there were no attacks from the Serb side on any territory outside the zone, nor were there any attacks within the zone either?

A. I don't think we understood each other with respect to the previous question. When these events were taking place, then there was some mortar fire and mortar shelling, but to a small extent, nothing intense that -- to follow on to your previous question.

Q. All right. Now, once the JNA, pursuant to the agreement, had left the territory of Croatia, the Serb side or, rather, the Serb army of Krajina or the Territorial Defence or the police force, did they ever launch any kind of attack on territory under Croatian control? ^{27465 BLANK PAGE 27466}

A. No, never. It never launched any kind of attack.

Q. Judging by what you say in your statement, from Palaca, those of you who were in Palaca had been given 50 rifles from Bobota, ammunition as well, but you don't know how those weapons came to be in Bobota, do you?

A. I don't know exactly, no, how it came to be in Bobota.

Q. And when was the new Territorial Defence formed of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem? When was that formed?

A. The new Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was formed between the 2nd of May and August. It was first of all active in different areas and wasn't linked up.

Q. All right. So it was established after the events in Borovo Selo in the local communities, which means in the villages in actual fact; is that right?

A. Yes, villages and Beli Manastir, those places.

Q. And as I can see from your statement, of the old structures, the Territorial Defence was just taken over from the old organisation in Beli Manastir. But that was placed under the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem as well; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. All right. Now, as the Territorial Defence in Croatia was a national selective body, is it true that that was the reason for which the Serbs organised themselves on the principle of the local staffs and commands in the area, defence?

A. Yes, that's what the word means.

Q. But in the Territorial Defence of that area, there were other ²⁷⁴⁶⁷ ethnic groups too, not only Serbs, who also wished to defend the area.

A. Yes, especially in Baranja.

Q. At that time, this Territorial Defence was not under JNA control, the one that was established in the villages and the other localities more or less spontaneously; isn't that right?

A. I've already said up until August it was not, but after August it did come under the command of the JNA.

Q. All right. Now, is it true that that Territorial Defence, once it had been established, was in fact a form of popular protection? And according to my sources of information, it was not even on good terms with the JNA. Isn't that right?

A. At all events, it was established as a form of protection or defence. "Territorial Defence" is the term used, and it means what it says. Now -- well, it was on good terms with the JNA. The JNA did not launch any operations in the area without the TO taking part, or vice versa, that the TO went into any action which was not under the command of the JNA.

Q. And what about the various formations that certain parties set up themselves? What about those?

A. All those formations set up by the parties - and I mean parties from the Republic of Serbia, the Radicals, I think, the Radical Party - were under the command of the TO and the JNA.

Q. Do you mean to say that the party formations became included into the JNA structure generally speaking?

A. Whoever bore arms or wore a uniform on the territory of Slavonia, ²⁷⁴⁶⁸ Baranja, and Srem was under the command of the JNA, and for several months you couldn't move from one place to another unless you received permission from the JNA to move around the area.

Q. Well, was that done in a general effort to avoid conflict, or was the intention otherwise?

A. Well, it was done pursuant to orders because there was a war on and the danger of war, actually.

Q. The danger of war. But we have just observed and noted that after November 1991 there was -- there were no war operations in the area. Is that right?

A. Yes. I'm saying -- I'm talking about the period from August to the end of November.

Q. All right. You were appointed traffic and communications minister at the proposal of Milenko Zivkovic. Couldn't you tell us who Milenko Zivkovic is?

A. Milenko Zivkovic was at the time a member of the National Serb Council, and he was born in the area, and I think that he was the only one that I did know out of all the names I listed. Before the war, that is.

Q. All right. And the Defence Ministry, at the proposal of Radlovic Predrag; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. So in both instances it was organised internally in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Your appointment and nomination, nobody influenced that from Serbia, did they?

A. That's right. ²⁷⁴⁶⁹

Q. Tell me now, please: You say that on the 28th of November, 1991, you say that in paragraph 10, in actual fact - and you have the statement before you, I believe, your notes - you say that in Erdut, on the 28th of November, 1991, all the operations had been completed. Isn't that right? There were no war conflicts after that.

A. Well, I'm not 100 per cent certain whether it was actually the 28th of November or perhaps the 10th of December, but anyway, I'm 99 per cent correct that it was the 28th of November.

Q. All right. But that was a time when there were no more war conflicts going on; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you say that in addition to the ministers in the government of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, the meeting was attended by Radovan Stojicic; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now, tell me this, please: As you mention the presence of Radovan Stojicic, who else, to the best of your recollections, from the MUP of Serbia attended the meeting with him? Somebody who worked in the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, for example?

A. When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came to the Slavonia area and became commander of the Territorial Defence, with him came -- well, I can't remember exactly, but about some 15 members of his unit. They came with him.

Q. Very well. And do you know that Radovan Stojicic, as a patriot and volunteer, came there to help you? He didn't come there with any unit ²⁷⁴⁷⁰ of the MUP of Serbia.

A. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came to the area as a patriot, but I'm not sure that he came as a volunteer or perhaps following somebody's instructions.

Q. So you don't know that.

A. No, I don't.

Q. Wouldn't it be logical, if he came in any other capacity, for him to have a unit with him? In your statement, you mentioned --

JUDGE MAY: You can't ask him that. You can't ask him what's logical. What you can ask the witness is whether when Badza came he came with a unit or did he come by himself.

Could you help us with that, Mr. Milanovic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came on the 21st, I think it was, September, I heard the story that he had come because the army was not managing to free Vukovar and that he wanted to assist in the control and command of the Territorial Defence and its cooperation with the Yugoslav People's Army, and he came with some 15 men and his unit. I think the unit at the time did not -- I mean, in Belgrade, the SAJ, didn't number more than 20 or 25 men on the outside.

JUDGE MAY: And who did you hear that from that, he had come with 15 men in order to free Vukovar?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him come with my own eyes, and at a meeting of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem it was stated that a man would come from the MUP of Serbia to be the commander of the TO and to link up all the forces in the area to liberate ²⁷⁴⁷¹ Vukovar.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And tell me, who did you personally see, apart from what you heard, that he had come with some 15 men? Did you see those 15 men?

A. I did see all 15 or so of them.

Q. Are you claiming that those 15 men constituted a unit of some sort?

A. According to the story about a special anti-terrorist unit which numbered in Serbia 20 to 25 men, and if he comes with 15, then for me that is a unit.

Q. Let us leave that aside for the moment, what is a unit for you. I don't know how many men that unit numbered, but the fact that Badza had come as a volunteer to Slavonia, on what grounds do you believe that he came --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. You're putting that he's a volunteer. The witness isn't accepting that he was a volunteer. Do you know -- do you know if he was a volunteer or not? I think you've already dealt with that, haven't you, Mr. Milanovic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try once again to explain this. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, as I said, the reason for his coming was to liberate Vukovar. I mentioned the number of men. And this is rather a large number for a special unit. And he came with weapons and equipment and not for a moment was it my understanding that they were there on a voluntary basis, especially in view of several examples, as you requested. ²⁷⁴⁷² For example, the equipment and weapons and uniforms, the system of communications, their salaries, they received them in Serbia, and upon the completion of the assignment all of them, or at least the commanding staff, were promoted. For example, Badza came as a commander of a special unit of the MUP of Serbia, and while he was still with me, just prior to his return, he was appointed assistant minister of internal affairs. So it's not logical for somebody to volunteer to a combat area and then to be promoted. So this is one example. I could think of others.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please be kind enough and explain to me what was the role of Radovan Stojicic in those operations. Do you have information that Radovan Stojicic or any of his associates committed any kind of crime over there?

A. No. That unit from the MUP of Serbia that was in the area never committed any crimes; of that, I am certain. But its role was significant. I remember exactly when they arrived on the 21st of September, and the halting of an operation on Vukovar for some 15 days or a month until a system of control and command was established, together with General Bratic [phoen], and later when he was killed on the 4th of November, then with his successor they met on a daily basis and they drew up a plan and led the operation for the liberation of Vukovar, which started on the 4th of November and ended on the 18th.

Q. So that means within the framework of the JNA.

A. In my statement, I said that the JNA dominated the area until Badza arrived. After Badza's arrival, the JNA gained in significance, and ²⁷⁴⁷³ it was treated as a real TO, so that in every operation it was subordinated to the JNA, especially as the TO didn't have weapons and no mortars, cannon, or heavy weapons or self-propelled launchers or any other equipment. This was all in the possession of the JNA. And when Badza arrived, the TO gained in significance, and all operations were coordinated by the Yugoslav People's Army and the TO implemented them.

Q. And is it true that it was only in October 1991 that you considered yourself to be under the MUP and that was when Badza came there and you considered this to be a link with the MUP of Serbia? Is that right?

A. Quite so. That is what was stated at a meeting of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that a man was coming from the MUP of Serbia who would take over the command of the TO and as soon as he arrived Goran Hadzic appointed him commander of the TO, a couple of days later.

Q. So Goran Hadzic appointed him.

A. Yes, he did.

Q. So no one from Serbia appointed him, did they?

A. I think someone sent him from Serbia and Goran Hadzic just confirmed this in paper.

Q. So this appointment carried out by Goran Hadzic, who was then what? The president of the area, wasn't he?

A. He was the Prime Minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Isn't that proof that Badza, who had come as a volunteer and places himself at the disposal -- ²⁷⁴⁷⁴

JUDGE MAY: No. You must not put questions in that way. You've heard quite well what the witness has said about his being a volunteer. There's no point putting questions in a tendentious way which misrepresents what the witness has said. Now, move on to the next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We have established that he was appointed by a decision of the Prime Minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that is, Goran Hadzic.

JUDGE MAY: We've been through this. Let's move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And do you know that there were several members of the MUP of Serbia who temporarily suspended their positions in the MUP of Serbia and went as volunteers to assist you in defending yourself? Are you aware of that fact?

A. There were men from the MUP of Serbia, but I'm not familiar with their status regarding their employment.

Q. Are you aware of a similar situation in the JNA, that is, that officers born in Bosnia, Croatia could go, and always voluntarily, to assist the army of Republika Srpska or the army of the Serbian Krajina, that is, to join the ranks of the fighters there? Because these were areas in which they were born, to which they belonged, and which they felt needed to be defended. So a similar situation existed with respect to ²⁷⁴⁷⁵ many JNA members who then became members of the army of Republika Srpska of the Serbian army of Krajina; isn't that right?

A. There were cases of people going voluntarily, but there were also cases of people going upon orders of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia to those areas.

Q. Do you know, as deputy defence minister, that such an order could only apply with respect to their emolument, social and material status, but not with respect to questions of control and command?

A. I'm not sure what your question was.

Q. Let me rephrase the question. Is it true that the army of Yugoslavia, or as you put it, the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia, did it have command over the army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina or the VRS?

A. I cannot give a precise answer to that question, but I do know that the Serbian army of Krajina was dependent upon the JNA.

Q. You mean it received aid from them?

A. Depended on them.

Q. And who was your commander? You were assistant defence minister. Was there a Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina? Was there a Supreme Commander who was also the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina? Isn't that right?

A. There was the Main Staff of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and it was in command in the area of Krajina; sometimes not even there. But it was in command in the area, but I think that the commanders of the Serbian army of Krajina depended on the General Staff of the JNA. ²⁷⁴⁷⁶

Q. In the chain of command, did the general staff of the JNA command any operations in the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

A. I have no such information.

Q. So let's finish with that. Tell me, please, with respect to the structure of all those members of the Serbian army of Krajina, including civilians who took up arms to defend their homes and who formed the Serbian army of Krajina, where were those people from?

A. With respect to the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, I can say that at the very beginning the TO was mostly composed of the local population. Then in a certain period of time some volunteers arrived who were either under the command of the TO or directly under the JNA, and the number was between 10 and 25 thousand.

Q. Of what?

A. Soldiers.

Q. From Krajina?

A. From the region of Srem and Baranja.

Q. And how many out of those 25.000 soldiers of the Srem and Baranja region were volunteers from Serbia?

A. It is difficult to say. You interrupted me. From August 1991 until November and December 1991, there were about 36.000 - about 36.000 - members of the army of Yugoslavia --

Q. That is the JNA in 1991, not the VJ?

A. Yes, that's correct, the JNA. There were about 36.000 men. And it is hard to say how many volunteers there were, as there were volunteers ²⁷⁴⁷⁷ both within the TO and within the JNA.

Q. I'm asking you about the Serbian army of Krajina, when that army was formed. In the area of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, how many men did that army have when it -- the army was formed?

A. You mean the TO or the Serbian army of Krajina?

Q. I'm very precise. I said the Serbian army of Krajina.

A. The Serbian army of Krajina, I think, was officially formed for the first time in 1994, the Serbian army of Krajina.

Q. But in the meantime, it was called the TO of Krajina; is that right?

Now, tell me, when the JNA withdrew from the territory of Croatia as a whole, that is, in 1992, what was the numerical strength of the TO in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

A. In April/May 1992, the JNA withdrew and the Vance Owen Plan came into effect.

JUDGE MAY: Let us try and deal with this. Fist of all -- just a moment. So let us just clarify it.

Before we -- before the Serb army of Krajina was formed, the accused has put that the body was called the TO of Krajina. Is that correct?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. But it was acting in the following way: Up until the 26th of February, 1992, the TO operated in three areas; in the Knin area, in Western Slavonia, and Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. And when those three areas joined up, it was only then for the first time that the TO of the Republic of Serbian ²⁷⁴⁷⁸ Krajina was established.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And what was the numerical strength of that TO of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

A. I can't say exactly. But I can be precise with respect to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Well, please do so, for that region.

A. There were several stages. When the JNA withdrew, the Vance Owen Plan came into effect, and the double-key system. The TO was disbanded, and the Blue Brigades of the police guarded the border towards Croatia pursuant to the Vance Owen Plan. However, since the Croats violated the Vance Owen Plan, they attacked -- I can't remember whether it was the Miljevacka plateau or the Medak pocket, I can't remember exactly, but because of that the double-key system fell through, the TO was reactivated, and from then on it was the TO until 1994 and then the Serbian army of Krajina until Krajina fell. However, in the area of Slavonia, during the state of emergency, the state of war, the TO numbered some 20-odd thousand. And in a regular situation it numbered between 5 and 7 thousand.

Q. Very well. Now, we are talking about the emergency wartime situation, when the TO numbered some 20.000 men in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, how many volunteers were there from Serbia?

A. It's difficult for me to be precise, but between 3 and 4 thousand, I think. I don't think I'd be wrong if I would put it at that figure. ²⁷⁴⁷⁹

Q. Those who came to join the ranks of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, tell me this, please: Once this Territorial Defence had been established, of Krajina, and the command structure put in place, was there a single defence minister or minister of the police or commander of the Main Staff of the Serb army of Krajina or Territorial Defence who was somebody born outside Krajina?

A. I think that all of them were born either -- or they originated, their roots were from Krajina.

Q. And where do you get the piece of information, as you put it, that there were 3.000 volunteers from Serbia? Do you have any records of that, that there were so many, such a large number of volunteers? Because that would make it 10 per cent, 10 per cent of your forces made up of volunteers from Serbia. Where do you get that figure from? You must have had some records.

A. Well, that is based on a free -- a good but free assessment.

Q. All right. But can you give me any reason on the basis of which you made that free assessment of yours? What were the grounds?

A. Well, I do have reason to say that. As the ministry dealt with supplies for the army - this especially referred to uniforms, boots, that kind of thing, if I can put it that way - and then I know that those people would usually be given priority, because they were guests in the area.

Q. All right. If you dealt with their supplies and logistics, ²⁷⁴⁸⁰ uniforms, et cetera, then you must have some document where this is evidenced, which records how much equipment you issued to those guests in the area, uniform, boots, et cetera, which would bear out what you're saying.

A. Well, we didn't keep records for us to say two or three units and then have special records for them, but they were deployed in the brigades and battalions. So we didn't have any separate records kept for that. That wasn't customary.

Q. So that means you don't have any records.

A. I don't think anybody has any records of that kind.

JUDGE MAY: Before we go any further, Mr. Milosevic, there's just a matter I want to clarify.

What dates are we talking about, Mr. Milanovic? You said that during the emergency, about 3.000 to 4.000 volunteers from Serbia joined the TO in the region. What sort of dates are we talking about? Is this 1991 or earlier or later?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The period -- well, I was referring to, and I hope Mr. Milosevic was referring to that too, because that's when volunteers were necessary -- August 1991 to November/December 1991.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, if you say -- if you've given us that time frame, from August to December 1991, were those then members of the JNA?

A. No. Members of the JNA were a different category with their reserve units and Territorial Defence. That was different. And they were equipped in Serbia and would arrive -- ²⁷⁴⁸¹

Q. The JNA was equipped in Yugoslavia, because it was the Yugoslav People's Army; right?

A. Yes, right.

Q. But these volunteers, weren't they -- the ones you're talking about, weren't they members of the JNA?

A. I've already answered that. Those members, those 3.000 to 4.000 men, were with the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. That's one thing, one lot. The other lot are reservists and volunteers who came from the Yugoslav People's Army and there were 36.000 of them approximately in the area.

Q. You mean JNA troops?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. On the territory of Yugoslavia?

A. Not on the territory of Yugoslavia. On the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Well, wasn't that Yugoslav territory in 1991?

A. Well, yes. But we didn't use that term up till now. We always referred to the forces of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Yes. But in 1991, de facto and de jure, that was the territory of Yugoslavia

A. Yes, up until the recognition of Croatia.

Q. And that took place in 1992; right?

A. Yes, right.

Q. And after the recognition of Croatia, there were no war operations on that territory, were there? ²⁷⁴⁸²

A. Some sporadic return fire, but I don't think it could be termed "war operations."

Q. All right. So the answer is no, there were no war operations in that territory then. Is that right?

A. I said there were none.

Q. Very well. You say in paragraph 21 that you don't know the reasons for which Radovan Stojicic, Badza, went from Slavonia to Belgrade.

A. I remember that he did travel to Belgrade, yes.

Q. But you don't know the reasons. Well, don't you know that he lived in Belgrade, resided in Belgrade, he had a family in Belgrade?

A. I do know that. I would sometimes accompany him. Sometimes he would go to see his children, and at others he would go to attend working meetings.

Q. Well, you had a personal friendly relationship with him, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. So because of this friendly, personal relationship, the conviction prevailed that you were some sort of link and connection between the MUP of Serbia and Slavonia; isn't that right? And you actually say that in paragraph 23.

A. Once Badza had left the area.

Q. Yes. And were you a link between the MUP of Serbia and Slavonia, or due to circumstances was that ascribed because of your friendship with him, ascribed to you because of your friendship with him?

A. Well, I'd say both. ²⁷⁴⁸³

Q. And then you go on to explain that your contacts with Radovan Stojicic continued to be friendly and on a personal footing when he went to take up his new position. You would often go to see him in Belgrade, you say. And you also say that you informed him about the situation in the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem district. So he didn't have any sources about the situation but relied on you to inform him; is that it?

A. Well, he learnt about it from me, but firstly he was a policeman and they use a number of sources for their information.

Q. So your personal relationship, that is, between you and him, was not the relationship of a MUP and the Republic of Srpska Krajina or Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. You had personal ties, a personal relationship, the two of you; isn't that right?

A. Well, I've already answered a similar question.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, you say that in the course of 1991 in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that there was a unit of the MUP of Serbia. And that is in paragraph 28 of your statement. And you say that it numbered approximately 100 men. Is it true that -- and in command of the unit, as you say, was Veljko Bogunovic. I can see that from these statements of yours. Is it true that this man Bogunovic and his unit was exclusively composed of policemen from the Republic of Croatia?

A. It was entirely made up of policemen from the Republic of Croatia who had been dismissed in the Republic of Croatia or had tendered their resignation, didn't want to work under the circumstances.

Q. All right. All right. Fine.

A. Just a minute, please. I haven't completed my answer. And they ²⁷⁴⁸⁴ were all given work as -- in the MUP of Serbia and as members of the MUP of Serbia. They came to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Where did you get this other piece of information from, policemen who were dismissed set up a unit which in the territory of the republic they had been worked up until then suddenly became employees of the MUP of Serbia? Where do you get that information from?

A. Well, this is no idea of mine. It's an exact piece of information, because 99 per cent of those people still work in the MUP of Serbia today.

Q. All right. Where professional policemen found professional employ and where they're working today has nothing to do with the fact that they were policemen working in Croatia; is that right? This man Bogunovic, was he from Croatia as well?

A. Well, you can check that out on the basis of his work booklets, employee booklets.

Q. Is that man Bogunovic from Croatia?

A. They're all from Croatia.

Q. All right. I see, all from Croatia. Right. Now, is it true that they were under the command of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and not under the command of Belgrade?

A. When they were in the territory, they were under the command of the commander of the TO.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, is it true that the police of Serbia - so this whole sector of public security - was never in the territory? It was only after Operation Storm and the chaos that ensued after it that there ²⁷⁴⁸⁵ was one unit which helped have law and order prevail and sort of -- to border security. And there were no operations then either; isn't that right?

A. A specialist anti-terrorist unit does come under the sector of public security.

Q. It wasn't a special anti-terrorist unit which was deployed in the area, was it?

A. I've already answered that question, that its commander was there and more than half the members of the unit.

Q. You said that there was Badza, that you don't know in what capacity he was there, and you said that he was accompanied by about 15 people.

A. Yes, approximately 15.

Q. All right, 15. So Badza with 15 men launched an aggression against Croatia; is that what you're claiming?

A. That's not what I said.

JUDGE MAY: No. You're misrepresenting the evidence again, and we have already been over this particular issue to a great deal of length. So let's move on to something else.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, you mentioned that there was a unit of the MUP of Serbia under the command of Obrad Stevanovic. Could you explain that to me, please.

A. After the fall of Western Slavonia and the lower part of Krajina, sometime in August this unit arrived and it was deployed in the area right ²⁷⁴⁸⁶ up until April 1996, which was when it withdrew. And it was exclusively there to ensure that law and order prevailed, to keep the peace. There were no war operations, but there was an immediate threat of war that was possible.

Q. Now, did that unit defend the frontier, the border, and help ensure that law and order prevailed after the chaos following Operation Storm? Is that what it was doing? Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. So did that unit have any combat operations vis-a-vis anybody at the time there?

A. No.

Q. So, in fact, that unit was there to assist the authorities in the area, to help them see that law and order prevailed, and to help them in matters of traffic control and fighting crime as well. Is that what it was doing there?

A. In my assessment, that view -- that unit had the greatest role to play by supplying moral support to the people in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. All right. Let's not pursue the point about this unit, because you yourself say there was no -- no combat operations. But tell me this now, please: You mentioned the demilitarisation plan and the transformation of the 11th Corps. Now, tell me, is it true that the plan for the demilitarisation and transformation of the 11th Corps was compiled in 1995?

A. Yes. The corps was set up sometime in 1993 and 1994 whereas the ²⁷⁴⁸⁷ plan for demilitarisation of the 11th Corps was completed immediately after the signing of the Erdut Agreement, in the spirit of the agreement's implementation.

Q. Very well. You have provided here a text of the Erdut Agreement but only in English.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's tab 27 of Exhibit 549, for the record.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Then we can see that it was signed by you and Hrvoje Sarinic, and that the others, Galbraith and Stoltenberg, were participants in the peace process. Did this agreement ensure the halting of violence and the exodus of Serbs from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

A. The agreement guaranteed a peaceful solution, a peaceful settlement.

Q. I draw your attention to point 12. There were two years of a transitional period during which when everything settles down people could decide how they would organise their lives. No one had to decide anything in haste. The period envisaged was one year plus another year. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Even General Loncar, who was commander of the 11th Corps, remained as some sort of - I don't know how to put it - assistant to the international administrator, Walker, at the time in Eastern Slavonia?

A. Yes, General Loncar did remain for a while.

Q. Now I should like to draw your attention to point 12, which envisages -- unfortunately, I only have it in English, so I'll read it out ²⁷⁴⁸⁸ in English, but it will be translated for you. [In English] "Not later than 30 days before the end of the transitional period" --

[Interpretation] which means after this two-year period -- [In English] "elections for all local government bodies, including for municipalities, districts, and counties, as well as the right of the Serbian community to appoint a joint Council --" [Interpretation] I'm not getting a translation. Is this being translated? Are you hearing the translation?

A. No.

Q. Could I hear the B/C/S translation, please.

A. I'm not getting it either.

Q. There's no interpretation from English into Serbian.

JUDGE MAY: Let's try again.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. So I'm reading point 12.

MR. MILOSEVIC:

Q. "Not later than 30 days before the end of the transitional period, elections for all local government bodies, including for municipalities, districts, and counties, as well as the right of the Serbian community to appoint a joint Council of municipalities, shall be organised by the Transitional Administration," [Interpretation] et cetera. So this agreement establishes the right of the Serbs to organise a joint council of municipalities, because it says "right of the Serbian community to appoint a joint Council of municipalities." Isn't that right?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. What I'm trying to say is did this provide for a peaceful ²⁷⁴⁸⁹ settlement for all and did it envisage the right of the Serb community to form a joint council of municipalities in the area?

A. Yes, that is common knowledge. Only I don't know whether it was actually formed.

Q. Was a joint council of municipalities formed?

A. I think that no longer exists in Croatia. I think it's now called a "zupanja" or county.

Q. So this is -- the practice nowadays does not conform with that Erdut Agreement. So the Serbs no longer have the right to this joint council of municipalities, though it was provided for by the Erdut Agreement.

A. I think they don't, unless the "zupanja" means that.

Q. The "zupanja" certainly doesn't mean that, because this joint council of municipalities is envisaged as the right of the Serbian community.

A. I think this did not come into being, but I'm not sure.

Q. That was not the only agreement that was not complied with, but let us move on. You say that you had a direct connection -- I have to tell you that I hear this for the first time, and I find it hard to believe, but you'll probably be able to explain this to me -- that you were -- had a direct line with Milan Milutinovic. With me you never had a direct line, but you apparently had one with Milan Milutinovic. Will you please explain this to me. You had a telephone line? Milan Milutinovic at the time was the minister for foreign affairs, wasn't he?

A. You mean telephone line? ²⁷⁴⁹⁰

Q. Yes. Yes. No, in paragraph 30, you refer to a telephone line.

A. As I said in my statement, I had a telephone starting with the numbers 025, which means the Sombor municipality. Then I had the 011 for Belgrade --

Q. Well, if you call Belgrade from here, you also have to dial 011.

JUDGE MAY: We must bring this to a close for the moment. It's -- it's time now for an adjournment. We can come back to it after the adjournment.

We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got -- you have an hour and three-quarters left. You've had over two hours with this witness. The Prosecution had just over three hours. It's right you should have a bit longer because of the statement too. So three hours and three-quarters in all, which means you've got an hour and three-quarters left. Mr. Milanovic, I interrupted you, I think, when you were -- you were going to say something. But it may be that we can get back to it through -- is there anything you'd like to add?

Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hadn't answered the question. In addition to these two telephones from the Republic of Serbia, I had a phone that was known as a special line, with four digits, and it was only the government of Serbia, the MUP, the army, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the public security, the state security, and some other ²⁷⁴⁹¹ ministries had this number. So I was able to contact directly Milan Milutinovic and others who had these numbers and they could contact me and no one else could do so.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may we first clear up this question of time. You admitted this witness under the new Rule 89, and there's a large quantity of documents that have been tendered without any examination-in-chief. So I think that an hour and three-quarters that you are giving me is insufficient for me to complete the cross-examination of this witness.

JUDGE MAY: It bears all that in mind. It also bears in mind the length of time which you'll have vis-a-vis the Prosecution. Yes, let's go on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is precisely why I'm asking you to reconsider this once again, because Madam Uertz-Retzlaff tendered most of the documents without any examination, as you know.

JUDGE MAY: All right. Well, now is your opportunity, if you want, if it's necessary to look at these documents. It may be not be necessary, but if you want to, now is your opportunity. But you've got an hour and three-quarters left.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Milanovic, tell me, where did you get the idea that Radovan Stojicic was outside the chain of command of the MUP when he was in the MUP? He was assistant minister. How could he be outside the MUP chain of command when he was assistant minister in the MUP? I'm talking about the time when he was the assistant minister and not about the time when he ²⁷⁴⁹² was a volunteer in your area.

A. I came to the conclusion that Minister Sokolovic left everything related to public and state security to his assistants and that he did not interfere much into their work, that they mostly made their decisions themselves, and I do know that very frequently he would stay at home, without even coming to work every day.

Q. Are you claiming that Minister Zoran Sokolovic was not performing his duty but that his assistants for the public and state security worked without his approval and without his approval and without discussions at the senior level meetings?

A. I didn't say that, but I said that they had a free hand.

Q. On what ground did you come to that conclusion?

A. Radovan Stojicic himself told me that several times, and I saw when decisions were being taken that when you call up on the phone you omit the proper level in the chain of command.

Q. Do you know that in most cases the three of them came to see me, that is, the minister and the two assistants, heads of the two departments?

A. I don't doubt that, but they certainly must have come individually too.

Q. Is this something you're saying on the basis of an impression that you gained?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's move on to the next topic. You testified about a Skorpions unit which was led by Slobodan Medic. Where were they from? Are they ²⁷⁴⁹³ from your area?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you engage them?

A. Where?

Q. Did you engage them in your area?

A. As far as the area is concerned, I proposed, as is stated in this text, in my statement, I proposed to the director of the oil company that they secure the oil fields that were on the separation lines.

Q. Does that mean that you personally found them, rallied them, organised them, and engaged them privately to protect the oil fields?

A. That is not true.

Q. Well, who engaged them, then, to defend the oil fields in your area?

A. I proposed Slobodan Medic as the person who should be in charge of that security, and then they were under the director of the oil company.

Q. So this was a security unit for the oil company, the head of which you yourself proposed.

A. Correct.

Q. Why did it happen that you chose Medic to be at the head of the security detail in the oil company in your area?

A. Having toured the area, I realised that the oil fields were in jeopardy as they were along the very confrontation line. And it is common knowledge that if a shell were to fall, this would cause an ecological disaster. I toured the area. I met this young man for the first time. ²⁷⁴⁹⁴ He was proposed to me by several people. And I even remember that I asked Badza even whether he had anything against this, and he said he didn't. This young man was about 22 or 23 years old at the time, and he organised the task well and continued working at it until the end of 1996.

Q. But you also sent them to Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't you?

A. I didn't send them. The command of the corps sent them to accomplish various assignments, and most of those units that went outside the area I would visit very frequently.

Q. Well, as deputy defence minister, I assume you had a decisive say. As you appointed Medic yourself, you would decide where you would send him.

A. As you know yourself, according to the law on defence, the ministry does not have the right to order the engagement of the army. This is a right vested in the government and the command.

Q. Very well. So the government sent them.

A. Yes, the government and the army command.

Q. And did you mention that when the bombing of Yugoslavia started by NATO forces, that you sent him to Kosovo?

A. I mentioned that after the NATO attack on the Federal Republic, seven, eight, or ten days after that he called me up and told me that he'd rather not go as a reservist to the army of Yugoslavia but as a member of MUP. At the same time - and I didn't mention this - I was called up by General Djordjevic, the head of the public security, saying that he needed volunteers. So I didn't know what to do for three or four days, whether to send him or not, because everything was being monitored. I didn't know ²⁷⁴⁹⁵ whether I should get in touch with the two of them, and three or four days later I did establish -- link the two of them up, and two or three days later he went to Kosovo.

Q. Was he returned from there following General Djordjevic's orders? He demanded that he return?

A. Yes. He was returned, but he went back and stayed until the end of the bombing raids.

Q. Do you know that when General Vasiljevic testified here it was mentioned that he and this group of his committed various crimes in Kosovo?

A. I don't know what General Vasiljevic said, but I do know that two of his men were suspects and that proceedings are underway in Yugoslavia, that is, in Serbia. Now, the trial will show what is right and what isn't.

Q. And do you know that Vasiljevic testified against me, even though he did so, he said that I insisted that whoever committed a crime had to be held accountable and they mentioned him?

JUDGE MAY: The witness really can't deal with this. He wasn't here. It's somebody else's evidence. He can't comment on that. Yes, let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Is it you that Vlastimir Djordjevic never came to your area officially?

A. True.

Q. You frequently mention the Vance Owen Plan. In the ²⁷⁴⁹⁶ examination-in-chief and since that, it's not the Vance Owen Plan, it's the Vance Plan. Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Isn't it true that the army of Yugoslavia in conformity with that plan withdrew its units from the territory of the Republic of Croatia?

A. Yes, in April or May 1992.

Q. Doesn't this unequivocally show that the JNA advocated a peaceful settlement to the Yugoslav crisis as a whole?

JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to say. That's a matter of comment, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Do you remember that Milan Babic, who at the time was at the head of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, refused to accept Vance's plan and that that is precisely why on the 8th of January, 1992 I sent a public letter, an open letter to Babic, explaining my positions?

A. I remember that you did prevail upon the leadership in the lower part of Krajina to have them accept the Vance Plan.

Q. All right. And is it true and correct that in -- despite the fact that Croatia accepted the Security Council decision itself linked to the Krajina area for the Vance Peace Plan to be applied there, that is to say, to be -- UN-protected areas to be proclaimed, that they did not respect that because in mid-June 1992 they stormed the Miljevac plateau and committed great crimes against the Serbs on that occasion? Do you remember that?

A. I do remember that they violated the Vance Plan for the lower ²⁷⁴⁹⁷ part of Krajina.

Q. That was in June 1992. Now, do you remember that already at the beginning of 1993 there was an attack on Ravni Kotelar [phoen], the Maslenicki Bridge, Perica [phoen], Zemunik, where several hundred Serbs were killed and several hundred more wounded?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Then in October 1993, once again an attack on the Medak pocket area, when once again Serb settlements were destroyed and a large number of Serbs massacred? Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I do remember that attack.

Q. Now, I am enumerating the key and greatest crimes committed at the time. Now, is it also true, on the other hand, that after the arrival of the UN the Serbs from Krajina never entered territory under the control of Croatia, never stormed the territory under the control of Croatia?

A. That's also true, yes.

Q. Did Krajina have its Ministry of the Interior? Is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Did it have its state security? Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Is it also correct that Krajina had its own Red Berets, which were called the Red Berets of Krajina? Is that right?

A. Well, I'm not quite sure about that.

Q. You don't know?

JUDGE MAY: The witness has said he's not sure about it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. ²⁷⁴⁹⁸

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you mentioned various people from the Ministry of the Interior, is it true that you knew Jovica Stanisic only superficially, that you only saw him a couple of times in your life?

A. Yes. During the events that we're talking about. But after that, we would see each other very frequently.

Q. What do you mean by "after that"? When is this after period?

A. Well, let me be precise. In 1992, 1993, 1994, rarely. In 1995, a little more often. And also a few times in 1996. Not in 1997. But since -- after his replacement, for about two years, practically every second or third day.

Q. So you in fact saw him after the war; is that it?

A. Well, that's what I said. Before and after; mostly after.

Q. All right. Now, can you give us the names of somebody from the state security of Serbia who came to Krajina during all these war years? Can you give us a name?

What are you reading from, if I might inquire?

A. Just to remind myself about 19 -- about paragraph 76 of my statement.

For example, out of these 15 or so, quite certainly 70 per cent of them.

Q. What? 70 per cent of the 15 what?

A. That they arrived.

Q. What you mean to say is that ten of them, about ten of them came?

A. Well, roughly. But they were in the area, and I don't know the ²⁷⁴⁹⁹ exact number. It wouldn't be state security if everyone were to know the exact number.

Q. Oh, I see. All right, then. Now, what were they doing in that territory anyway?

A. I assume that they were going about their business.

Q. You mean collecting intelligence? Is that it?

A. Yes, that's it.

Q. Did they take part in any combat operations? Do you know that any of them committed any crimes perhaps?

A. As to crimes, I don't know about that. But rumour had it -- now, as I wasn't active in 1991 -- rumour had it that some individuals did take part in the fighting. But I never heard of them committing any crimes.

Q. All right. You have presented certain accusations against certain individuals. You mention Dusan Orlovic, and say he worked in the state security of Serbia. Is it, however, true that that man actually worked in the Ministry of the Internal Affairs of Krajina?

A. Well, that is an example in point, that somebody is working like him in Krajina and in the DB of Serbia, and I have exact information that he's still working in the DB of Serbia.

Q. As to today, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in those times. Was he in the executive government of Krajina at the time?

A. Yes, he was, as an employee of the DB of Serbia at the same time.

Q. So you mean he was a member of the executive authorities of Krajina in the capacity of a DB of Serbia employee?

A. Yes. He was employed in both ministries. ²⁷⁵⁰⁰

Q. How was that possible? How could he have been employed by both ministries?

A. Well, there you have it. It is possible.

Q. All right. You say that you attended meetings with Stanisic and that he asked you about the situation in Slavonia and it was peaceful the whole time when you communicated with him. There were no combat operations at the time.

A. Yes, it was a time of peace, and the Blue Helmets would either be arriving or there was demilitarisation afoot, that kind of thing, everything linked to security.

Q. All right. Now, if they had their men there, why would he have to ask you whether you -- if they had information from the source, why would he have to ask you about the situation, if he could get it from the source?

A. I've already said; he liked several sources.

Q. You go on to say that after the 5th of August, 1995 a certain man called Momir Gavrilovic, Gavra, an operative of the DB, was sent and he introduced himself falsely as Colonel Milan Peric, gave false identity. Now, tell me, was there a crime that had been committed in the region or what was he doing there in the first place? Was he doing something that was not allowed? Did anything actually happen, or did you just think that up, invent it?

A. I didn't invent anything. No crime took place. The fact of it was that the man was present and he was chief of security of the 11th Corps. And it is you who invented the rest. ²⁷⁵⁰¹

Q. All right. I'm just asking on the basis of what it says -- what you yourself state.

A. Well, there's nothing there about a crime.

Q. Well, I'm asking you, because you're testifying here, whether a crime had been perpetrated or not.

From what you wrote, it would emerge that you increased salary and funds and resources from the budget without the region knowing, and then you mentioned Belje, NIK, Vinarija and some other companies; is that right?

A. Yes. In agreement with the representatives of the authorities of the Srem-Baranja region, that's what we did.

Q. But you did not coordinate that with the government in Knin.

A. No, we bypassed Knin.

Q. All right. Now, did you know that Yugoslavia offered humanitarian assistance to the budget of Srpska Krajina to finance social welfare, health welfare, education, and things of that kind?

A. I do know that money came from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that it filled the coffers of our budget for the purposes which you mentioned. Mostly it was spent on the army and police.

Q. Well, I have a piece of information here from the 1st of December, 1993, for example, resources for the army in your budget were 43.65, and they were covered by credits issued by the national bank of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. And I assume you ought to know that; right?

A. I don't remember that exactly, but I do know that in different way the budget was covered. ²⁷⁵⁰²

Q. All right. Now, is it true that these high credits with the national bank of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was possible precisely because of the production and processing of crude oil precisely in your region? Isn't that right?

A. Possibly, because that was one of the largest sources of revenue for the budget of Krajina.

Q. Do you know that in 1991 and 1992 organs -- the organs of Croatia interrupted the payments from -- coming in and out of the Krajina region and that all of you had to have this turnover amongst yourselves and via the accounts you opened in Yugoslavia? Isn't that right?

A. In the Srem and Baranja region, this interruption began in August and September. Nothing more was being done, with Croatia, that is, no business dealings.

Q. And the payments -- payments, transactions that you had with the SDK or social accounting service in Yugoslavia, that was based on an agreement signed for providing services for payments of various kinds with the branch offices in Novi Belgrade and Sombor; is that right?

A. I'm not sure I'm well acquainted with this area, but probably.

Q. Is it true that the Republic of Serbian Krajina set up its own service of payments and organised branch offices for payments in Knin, Petrinja, Vukovar, Beli Manastir, and so on, in order to be able to deal with the flow of money, to allow the economy to function and the public services to function?

A. Yes, it did. And I think that was in 1992, but I can't remember the exact date. ²⁷⁵⁰³

Q. All right. Now, in October 1992, is it true that the budget of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was established and put into effect, that it was formed in the organs of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, in actual fact?

A. Probably it was, but I don't remember the exact period of time.

Q. But you do remember that in the course of 1992 assistance from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for social welfare, health, education, and so on, for pensioners was ensured? There were 20.000 pensioners in Krajina and former fighters, they had invalidity payments?

A. Well, assistance was frequently sought and received.

Q. There were 50.000 pensioners who had realised their rights by paying into the pension fund of Croatia and received nothing from it; right?

A. Yes. There were cases of that kind, quite a lot of them, but I don't know the exact number.

Q. And do you know that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia okayed humanitarian aid in 1992 amounted to 930 million dinars, and that was just 5 per cent of the resources and revenue from the budget to the end of 1992?

A. I don't remember those figures.

Q. As this comes under your realm of activity, do you remember how much oil production there was, how much oil was produced in 1992?

A. I can't say exactly for 1992, but I think on an average it was 250 tonnes, from 1992 to 1996.

Q. 250 tonnes per day? ²⁷⁵⁰⁴

A. Yes, per day.

Q. All right. Tell me this now, please: You've been speaking about the relationship between Goran Hadzic and myself. First of all, you don't know about our relationship firsthand, do you?

A. Well, you would make comments from time to time when we were together.

Q. But you said here that you came to see me for the first time in 1993 or 1994; isn't that right?

A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but roughly thereabouts. Perhaps a little before that.

Q. All right. But I assume you know that I'd got to know Goran Hadzic when he was president of the region. How could I know -- have known him before that?

JUDGE MAY: He can't -- he can't answer that. The witness can't answer that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness has already answered, because he said that he came to see me first in 1993 and 1994. I assume some dates can be compared.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But tell me this. I didn't quite follow what was said. You said something about Perisic and the presence of the army along the Danube. You mean the presence of the army at the Danube on our side of the Danube? Is that it? Is that what you meant?

A. Yes, as it says in the statement. If you want me to explain, I'll be happy to do so. ²⁷⁵⁰⁵

Q. Well, I wanted you to explain the presence of our army along the Danube on our territory. Is that right?

A. Yes. The army was along -- whether they were called border units or front units. Anyway, Perisic at one point withdrew them to the depth, to the rear. They weren't along the border itself. And then had them returned there.

Q. All right. But let's take all this together. And as you say, what has that got to do with whether they were further up front or further behind? I don't suppose you challenge the fact that that army was on the territory of Yugoslavia, whichever the variation and whatever the position, further forward or further back?

A. Well, I don't see what there is to challenge there.

Q. So the army was on Yugoslav territory, not on the territory of your region.

A. Well, I said that the foremost detachment was up at the border itself, the frontier, but on its -- in its own state.

Q. Yes. Well, I just wanted to clarify that point. And when you mention a press conference in Erdut, you talk about the people present and then mention a certain Major Suco, or something like that. You mention this Major Suco, a colonel or "puki", "pukovnik puki", a retired general. So he was an active -- he was not an active JNA officer, was he? That's not in dispute.

A. No. The investigator Dzuro showed me a tape, and I recognised some people on it, and among those people was this man, and he was a pensioner. He was retired. Yes. ²⁷⁵⁰⁶

Q. Very well. In paragraph 40 you mention that Badza in your friend's apartment, Zavisic, in Novi Sad accused you of supporting Goran Hadzic. Is that right?

A. I have to explain that. He invited me to this apartment and he accused me for the failure of the first round of the elections in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, because Martic got few votes in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that I shouldn't have undermined his position and to join forces with Goran but that I should have supported Martic and that now in the second round I should support Martic, because for the second round only he and Babic remained.

Q. Tell me, why would he accuse you of supporting Goran Hadzic when previously you said that Hadzic was some sort of -- my man? Why, then, would Badza accuse you of supporting Hadzic when Badza was my associate? He was deputy minister of the interior.

A. Well, you should remember that at that time my position was that neither Martic nor Hadzic nor Babic should be supported but that we should find someone else from our sleeves who would be able to bear the burden of the politics that were ahead.

Q. And did you know that the leadership of Serbia was on poor terms with Babic, to put it briefly, because he acted in an extreme manner and he was opposed to any kind of negotiations and a peaceful settlement?

A. I know that, but that was poor strategy.

Q. Do you know that the leadership of Serbia advocated and supported people who were in favour of a peaceful solution and negotiations?

A. Sometimes it was like that and sometimes it wasn't. ²⁷⁵⁰⁷

Q. Well, it is far for me to make any conclusion on the basis of this answer of yours. Whenever you mention a meeting that you attended and you were attending as a member of a delegation, so you were not leading that delegation, and there were always -- there was always talk of negotiations and efforts to reach a peaceful settlement.

A. I'll give you an example. You yourself said that you supported Goran Hadzic, as far as I understood you, and even if you didn't say it that is what I'm claiming.

Q. Well, you chose him, not me. Who chose Goran Hadzic?

A. You know that he was against the signing of the Erdut Agreement.

Q. The Erdut Agreement came later.

A. Very well. So sometimes support and sometimes not.

Q. The Erdut Agreement came in 1995. This has nothing to do with this. Surely you know that I met Goran Hadzic when he was president already and when he came officially to visit Serbia to seek assistance and who wanted to talk. So I couldn't have influenced his promotion because he already had reached the highest level he could have over there when I met him. Surely you know that.

A. According to what Goran said, it wasn't so. Goran would say that he often went to see you as president of the National Council and not of the government.

Q. Very well. In any event, he was the number-one man in the area when he came to see me; isn't that so?

A. Yes, it is. That is correct.

Q. Let's not dwell on that any further. ²⁷⁵⁰⁸ You say in paragraph 40 that telephone lines - and please explain this to me - between Serbia and Slavonia were interrupted because you didn't wish to support Martic and that they were re-established when you finally agreed to support Martic, and that Martic was elected thanks to you. That is what one gathers from what you say. Is that possible?

A. I didn't put it in those terms, but that I did assist, you know that very well.

Q. Are you saying that you lobbied for Martic as in any elections some people lobby for some and others for others?

A. In the second round, at the request of Badza. Now, how great my role was, I cannot judge.

Q. Well, explain to me this point about telephone lines. You say that if you dialled 011, you could contact Belgrade. Surely you know if you're dialling Belgrade from here, you first dial the country number and then 011. What is that -- what is the point you're making? The same applies if you're calling from Belgrade. You have to dial 381-11, you get Belgrade.

A. I explained it once, and I'll do it again briefly. Throughout the area of Srem and Baranja, there were only two telephone numbers with the code of Belgrade and a special telephone that I've already explained. And when I do not do as I'm told or if Martic criticises me in Belgrade, then I -- the line is broken and I can't re-establish the line until things calm down.

Q. And who installed those lines for you in the first place?

A. The PTT, in cooperation with the MUP of Serbia. ²⁷⁵⁰⁹

Q. So the MUP would switch you off when you disagreed with Martic and switch you on when you agreed with Martic; is that what you are saying?

A. Well, that's one example.

Q. Tell me, please: Here in paragraph 82, since this is something we didn't see but you reviewed this in the office of this opposite side, the video footage and those allegedly intercepted conversations, since those exhibits are not being produced here but in the offices of the side opposite, you say in paragraph 82, "The video footage shows the news conference held immediately after the review of the unit. I recognise the following people from this news conference." And then you mention: "Colonel Mladenovic, commander of the Baranja Brigade; Bijorcevic, commander of the Novi Sad Corps; a woman who was secretary of the Beli Manastir Municipal Council, whose name I cannot remember; Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan; Boro Ivanovic, known as Konj; and Milan Milanovic, known as Mrgud." That's you, isn't it? And then in addition to them, you mention some others.

Tell me, what is the significance of this review and what was the role of the JNA and when was this review?

A. The review occurred just before the pullout of the Yugoslav People's Army. The review was carried out by the commander of the Novi Sad Corps, which means General Andrija Bijorcevic. And after that there was a news conference, at which almost all those present spoke. And the rest is indicated here.

Q. When I put a question to you, you don't need to tell me or refer ²⁷⁵¹⁰ me to what is stated here. But I'm asking, was this review prior to the withdrawal of the JNA in accordance with the Vance Plan?

A. Yes. That's what I said.

Q. That is why I'm not sure of the significance of this review. According to the agreement, the army withdrew from the area, then there was a review, and after that, they left. Isn't that right?

A. Yes. We've said that several times.

Q. Very well. You say that after the withdrawal of the JNA, in each brigade there were three JNA officers. Is that what you said?

A. After the JNA withdrew, in accordance with the Vance Plan, the TO Brigades and the command of the TO for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, as well as for the whole of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, as it was known by then, were abolished and the weapons were placed under the double-key system. However, it was allowed that a couple of officers should remain in each command in plain clothes and who, in cooperation with the UN, that is, with the Blue Helmets, would tour and check the weapons and artillery.

Q. And was that in agreement with the arrangements made under the peace plan? Weapons were placed under a double key, one key held by the TO of the area and the other by the UN? And wasn't this controlled in accordance with the agreement drawn up based on the Vance Plan?

A. Yes, that's what I said.

Q. So the heavy weapons remained under the double-key system right up until the Croatian forces violated the agreement reached on the basis of the Vance Plan; isn't that right? ²⁷⁵¹¹

A. Yes. Tell me, please, in connection with what you said, that following orders of Milutinovic and Tomic you shut off the pipeline, oil pipeline, what is that about? Briefly.

A. After the Erdut Agreement was signed and the Dayton Accords, sanctions were lifted on the Federal Republic and Milutinovic called me and said that I should go and see Dragan Tomic, and someone advised me to contact Milutinovic - I can't remember who - that I should go to see Dragan Tomic and arrange with him for the oil lines to be closed, that is, for the Krk-Pancevo oil to be stopped so that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia could import oil from China. I could describe this in greater detail if necessary.

Q. Surely you know there was a contract between the FRY and Croatia on the delivery of oil through -- via the terminal at Krk, regardless of where the oil was coming from.

A. Yes. That is not in dispute. But for that to be done, we stopped drilling oil from the Srem-Baranja region altogether, and Goran Hadzic and the delegation that went to see you criticised me for this. I hope you remember.

Q. Probably that was as you say, but I don't remember you being somebody that was attacked by somebody. I really don't know that anyone attacked you.

A. I mean in words. I don't mean physically.

Q. Well, in words. That's what I'm saying. I don't know that somebody criticised you in particular.

A series of documents were produced here, but due to the limited ²⁷⁵¹² time I have I will certainly not have an occasion to go into them in detail. But let's -- let's take a look at least at some of them, some of those that have been referred to in particular during your examination-in-chief. We have here a document, official report of the conversation between the Prime Minister of the RSK government and Slobodan Milosevic, ERN 02077285.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation Continues] ... tab 9.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Immediately after the first paragraph -- have you found it? I'll be very brief. So please give me a brief answer to a couple of questions related to each document. So in the first paragraph, it says: "From the Republic of Serbia --" it says who was present, "From the Republic of Serbia, the President, Slobodan Milosevic, Prime Minister Radoman Bozovic, and the governor of the National Bank of Serbia." So the Prime Minister, the governor of the national bank, and myself.

And then in the second paragraph the topic of discussion is defined, the meeting agreed on the method of extending financial aid to Krajina up until the end of the year.

Is it clear that this delegation of Krajina, as can be seen from the composition of those from Serbia, that is, the Prime Minister and the governor of the national bank, apart from me, that this delegation had come to ask for financial aid from Serbia? Is that right?

A. Yes. That's not at issue.

Q. So the topic of discussion is financial aid of Serbia to the Republic of Serbian Krajina. ²⁷⁵¹³

A. Yes.

Q. Fine. Let's go on to the next document. The Republic of Serbian Krajina, Ministry of the Interior, 0207669, sent to the president, that is, to me, to the Prime Minister, to the minister of the interior, and Milan Martic signed it, addressing all of us together, highly unfavourable material and financial situation. Have you found the document?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's tab 14, Your Honours, of the same exhibit.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Anyway, this is what it says: The highly unfavourable material and financial situation of this ministry finds itself, as well as the Republic of Serbian Krajina, have prompted us to write to you so that within the frameworks of your capabilities you could lend us assistance. And then Milan Martic goes on to ask for financial assistance. Is that at issue or not?

A. I see nothing that would be at issue there. I just testified to the fact that this was an authentic document, that they are indeed the signatures and stamps of those people, and that all that is correct.

Q. All right. Fine. Now, what is there that is not normal; that is to say, that the Republic of Serbia is offering financial assistance to its own people in Krajina? Anything out of the ordinary there? Anything unlawful or contentious or anything along those lines that could be called into issue for any reason? Could you answer that question, please.

A. Well, I said that the document was authentic and that that was the assistance asked for. It's not up to me to judge whether it is ²⁷⁵¹⁴ normal, abnormal, out of the ordinary, or whatever.

Q. All right, Mr. Milanovic. Now, take a look at the next document. And during the examination-in-chief, I did draw attention to that, 0207683 is its number. The heading is "The Republic of Serbian Krajina, the government."

JUDGE KWON: Tab 17?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And they addressed the government of the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro and the governor of the national bank of Yugoslavia. So it is at a Yugoslav level. The competent authorities for monetary questions and republican levels and governments. The subject is request for unity in the credit and monetary system. This is the demand they sent --

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Exhibit 352, tab 14.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And on page 2, the first paragraph states, "From the day the war broke out in the area of the Republika Srpska Krajina, payments transactions were being done via commercial banks in their branch offices from the territory of the Republic of Serbia," which, as we have already noted, according to the agreement was done, put into effect. Now, do you know that a unified credit and monetary system was never established? Do you know that the Republic of Serbian Krajina had its own central bank, in actual fact, and that it had the Krajina dinar, as it was called? Isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So what was in use in Krajina was the Krajina dinar, and the ²⁷⁵¹⁵ central bank of Krajina had all the monetary power and authority; is that right?

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Now, you mentioned that the Krajina dinar was minted in Belgrade at the Topcider mint of Belgrade; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that the printing of money is a service and a commercial operation which can be done for foreign countries? Many countries have their money printed elsewhere or minted elsewhere if they don't have the necessary equipment to do so themselves. So do you know that the monetary authority in Krajina was in fact the central bank of Krajina and that the method of payment was the Krajina dinar?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let's move on to something else. Within your realm, that is to say, the army. We have a document here, 0201815, in which the chief of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia, Colonel Zivota Panic is issuing an order that through the military districts recruits should be taken in and sent out?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues] ...

JUDGE MAY: Let's have the tab number, please.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Tab 152 of Exhibit 352.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It says here that "With the aim of organising acceptance and initiation of the conscript soldiers who are in the SFRY, I hereby order that they organise the acceptance and initiation of the conscript soldiers ²⁷⁵¹⁶ who are responding to the appeal of the government of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, should report to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina." You were the assistant defence minister at the time, so in the Republic of Srpska Krajina, after the attack by the Croatian forces, mobilisation was proclaimed, a large number of people and conscripts, as you know, were on the territory of Yugoslavia, the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina put out a mobilisation, and here the chief of the General Staff is helping to organise the acceptance and accommodation of the people who, at the invitation of the government of Srpska Krajina, should put their name down for going to the Republic of the Serbian Krajina. So the citizens of the Republic of Serbian Krajina who put down their names to go to the army of Serbian Krajina at the invitation of the government of Serbian Krajina should be accepted and accommodated and be enabled to go there.

A. And what is your question? I don't understand your question.

Q. Well, is -- does this concern the acceptance and accommodation of those who have put up their names to go to the Serbian Krajina, to help with their accommodation and having them go there and nothing more than that?

A. That's what it says.

Q. Was anybody forced to go to the army there, or is it -- or does it just say those who respond to the call from the government to go there? Isn't that something quite normal? They have responded to the general call.

A. I testified to the fact that this was an authentic document, ²⁷⁵¹⁷ judging by the heading, the stamp, and the signature. Now, as far as the issue is concerned, I consider this is normal. But there were rumours going round that some people were forced to mobilise, although I don't have any specific information about that, and this does not refer to the Srem and Baranja region. These were conscripts that went to the lower regions of Krajina.

Q. All right. Now, have a look at point 4. This is just acceptance for those who have signed up themselves. And then it says: "The assignments of conscript soldiers shall be performed by the government office of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Belgrade." There was a bureau, and the address is stated. It is Mosa Pijada Street, number 8, and cooperation must be established with them. And it gives the telephone number. So it is the government office of the Republic of Serbian Krajina who will perform this; right?

A. That's what it says.

Q. And is there any - how shall I put this? - military role on the part of the Yugoslav army with respect to filling the full complement? You were deputy defence minister, so is there anything irregular here or out of order?

A. Well, I can't really say what was in order and what wasn't. From this document, we can see that the General Staff of what was already the VJ did help the Republic of Serbian Krajina with respect to mobilising the recruits, the conscripts.

Q. Yes, conscripts who, at the invitation of the government, sign up to go, that they should organise their acceptance and accommodation and ²⁷⁵¹⁸ that it is the government office of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Belgrade which was charged with doing this. So where is the problem there? It would be an embassy in another country that would do so for conscripts signing up. Isn't that logical?

A. Are you waiting for an answer? I've already answered your question.

Q. What was your answer?

A. My answer was that this is assistance of the Yugoslav army to the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. Is it quite clear that there is no coercion here, nobody being forced, forced mobilisation?

A. From this document, I cannot see that it is forced mobilisation, no.

Q. All right. Very well. Let's have a look further down. I've turned the page to the Serb original. It is tab 22 of Exhibit 327. You provided a document here of the Serbian Krajina, the Ministry of the Interior, the offices of the minister, to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia and to Deputy Minister Mr. Radomir Stojicic personally. His name isn't Radomir but Radovan. I'm just -- this just shows how well they know him; they can't even write his name down properly.

The date is the 22nd of March, 1995. And it says: "With your help, the Sabotage Squad of the Special Brigade of the RSK MUP is finishing a one-month course with your anti-terrorist units. Could you please continue the training ... of two members of our ²⁷⁵¹⁹ brigade who carry out permanent brigade duties as instructors/saboteurs. We would add that these are very responsible and conscientious members of the brigade who proved," et cetera, et cetera, "to be reliable fighters and members of our service, especially," et cetera. "We thank you for your understanding," et cetera. So this is a one-month course within the frameworks of the anti-terrorist units -- well, I'm sure you know that our officers during the SFRY were trained in various armed forces in different armies, ranging from America to Russia -- or first of all, from Russia right up to the United States. They were trained there. So what is there strange if somebody sends a group of people to attend a one-month course in some specialty to a friendly fraternal country, for example, for training?

A. Well, I can't see anything strange there. But let me repeat once again, all I said was -- was that this was an authentic document, that the heading, stamp, and signature was from Knin, and that -- that was it.

Q. Just a moment. Let's just --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Before we go on, we're going to consider the time position. Just one moment.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We're going to give you one hour from now, ten minutes of which you can take up till 2.00 and then you can have 50 minutes tomorrow, and we'll give you some additional time which you've asked for. Yes. So let's go on for another ten minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁷⁵²⁰

Q. Will you please now look at tab 15 of Exhibit 352. It is the 19th of June, 1992, the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Knin, addressed to the Federal Executive Council, which means the government of Yugoslavia, the Federal Secretariat for Finance, and the national bank of Yugoslavia, to the governor and deputy governor personally.

And then it says: "Will you please in accordance with Rule -- Article 6 on the Law of Assuring Supplementary Funds in the Federal Budget for Financing Social and other Services in the area of the SFRY, which is under the Special Protection of the United Nations in 1992, please pay the necessary sum of 12.900.000.000 dinars, into the funds of the Budget of the Republika Srpska Krajina no later than the 29th of June, 1992." The giro account number is given, of the Budget of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Mr. Milanovic, does this document show that the budget of the Federation for financing social and other services in the part of SFRY territory which is under special protection of the United Nations envisages a sum for aid and that the government or Krajina is requesting that this envisaged sum in the budget of Yugoslavia be paid into its account, the account of the budget of the Republic of Serbian Krajina? And this paper shows nothing other than that.

A. And the question is ...?

Q. Do you know that the budget is a public document?

A. A public document.

Q. Do you know that the government of Yugoslavia submitted the ²⁷⁵²¹ budget to the National Assembly and that there was an item in the budget to finance Social Services in a part of the territory of SFRY which is under special protect of the United Nations in 1992?

A. We've said several times that the federal state assisted the budget of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. Well, what's the problem, then? What does this document mean to you?

A. I don't know what it means. I was just shown this exhibit and asked whether I consider it to be authentic. I'm not entering into whether it is correct or not.

Q. So you're not entering into the contents. A whole pile of documents are being produced here which I don't understand the reason why they're being tendered, but that's why I'm asking myself, so what? If the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia extends material aid to Krajina, and what then?

JUDGE MAY: You don't have to ask the witness a question about it unless it's of significance.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] None of this is relevant for --

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what you are trying to --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. That will be a matter for us to determine. But meanwhile, why don't you move on and try and finish your cross-examination earlier.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few more documents, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁷⁵²²

Q. Look now at another document from the Ministry of the Interior, the administration for public security, tab 19 of 352. This is also produced as an exhibit. Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbian, the administration for frontier affairs, Belgrade, and it says, "On the 8th of November, 1993, at the frontier crossing Raca two workers will enter the Republic of Serbia from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina to escort money from Belgrade to Knin." And then it gives the names of those workers - and I won't read them - and the license plate -- registration numbers of the pistols carried by those workers as official pistols, what vehicles they are using, what is the license plate of that vehicle, that they be allowed entry and exit from the Republic of Serbia. So this is something that would apply under normal procedure in any other country as well. An indication is given as to who these people are, data about them, registration numbers, license plates, with the indication that they are escorting the money. Is there anything here that you could describe as illegal, abnormal, or out of the ordinary?

A. No. This was the regular practice when crossing the border.

Q. Was it the normal practice 20 years before that?

A. I'm not quite sure about that.

Q. But it is the normal practice today, if you're asking another country for somebody to enter it under arms, if he's escorting somebody or something. What other practice can there be?

A. As far as another state is concerned, yes. But I'm -- I thought that you were asking me whether that was the regular procedure in these ²⁷⁵²³ areas.

Q. Is there anything unusual there?

A. I say for the third time that I see nothing unusual or out of the ordinary.

Q. The national bank of the Republic of Serbian Krajina - that is, tab 18 of Exhibit 352 - it's addressed to the national bank of Yugoslavia. Request for cash grant. "Please, for the needs of the National Bank of the Republic of Serbian Krajina grant a new amount totalling to 10 billion dinars [as interpreted].

"Since we're nearing the end of July, and the deadline for paying members of the army, police pensions, et cetera, our needs for cash are great. In order for the National Bank of the Republic Serbian Krajina to provide the funds necessary to cover the requirements cited, it needs in addition to the cash it has in its own treasury another 10 billion dinars [as interpreted]. Regards, Governor Pavao, Marjanovic." So cash, when people talk about cash here, that is in our language "gotovina". The earnings of public servants were paid out in cash, weren't they? There was no system of cards, cheques, et cetera. If any, it was extremely limited. Isn't that right?

A. Yes. Everything was done in cash. And I don't think any -- I don't see anything at issue here.

Q. Did most employees in Yugoslavia receive their salaries in cash?

A. In those days, I think they did.

Q. And even before those times, they most frequently received their salaries in cash. Few received them through cheques. ²⁷⁵²⁴ Mr. Milanovic, I'm asking you to clarify this because a question is frequently raised here as to the transfer of cash from Yugoslavia. And now we see that quite legally with an attachment of the national bank of Yugoslavia cash is being carried to Knin as a subsidy to the national bank of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and in cash. You were a deputy minister. Isn't this a completely legal transaction based on the law?

A. As far as I know, I think it was legal. And mostly during that wartime period and under conditions of very high inflation, throughout the territory of the former republics and Krajina, cash was used.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's 2.00. We'll adjourn now. Fifty minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

We'll adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow morning. Mr. Milanovic, would you be back then, please.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

the 15th of October, 2003 at 9.00 a.m.