²⁷⁵²⁵

Wednesday, 15 October 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: MILAN MILANOVIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Let us first cover a few more documents, Mr. Milanovic. I have here in front of me tab 153, Exhibit 352. It relates again to a letter to the Chief of Staff of the General Staff. Please look at it.

Let me draw your attention to the document. The request is for some rockets and ammunition. Look, it says, Republic of Serbian Krajina, Ministry of Defence, Knin, 8th of April, 1993. And in the right-hand corner at the bottom, with the incoming stamp, it says received on the 7th of April, 1993.

Don't you think, Mr. Milanovic, that this is a forgery? How can a document be received a day prior to the date when it was sent? Somebody was very careless when drafting this.

A. I note that the dates do not agree, but I guarantee that the stamp and the signature are authentic, because I know Mr. Dusko Babic personally.

Q. So you have no observation to make regarding this discrepancy in ²⁷⁵²⁶ dates?

A. I have no observations.

Q. Very well. Then there's a letter that I have taken out of a tab, 00525574. The Serbian National Council is addressing a letter to the Presidency of the SFRY on the 28th of May, 1991. It was signed by Ilija Petrovic, as it is stated here.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's Exhibit 327, tab 2. Mr. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I would like you to comment on this with regard to the contents of this letter. Let me tell you in advance before I quote parts of it that I would like you to say whether what is stated in the letter was your position at the time in the area. Was it correct? Was it based on facts and addressed to the Presidency of the SFRY and received by the Presidency of the SFRY on the 30th of February [sic], as it is stated here, in 1991?

A. And then it says: "Confronted with the unwillingness of the Presidency of the SFRY and the Federal Executive Council to assume their constitutional responsibilities to permanently remove inter-ethnic conflicts in the present-day Republic of Croatia, to prevent armed conflict and establish disputed questions due to which inter-ethnic problems arise, and to ensure a democratic dialogue for their resolution." And then it says: "The Serbian National Council in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem warns the SFRY presidency and the Federal Executive Council that inter-ethnic conflicts in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem are getting more intensified regardless of the presence of the federal SUP and the Yugoslav People's Army and of their obligations ²⁷⁵²⁷ assumed by sending them to the area."

Then it says: "It has already become customary under darkness various explosive devices to be activated at the entry to Serbian villages and to fire at Serb houses and mistreat unarmed Serb inhabitants, for Serb workers to be fired, for economic and other property owned by Serbs to be demolished, for medical facilities to not provide appropriate treatment to ethnic Serbs, for armed citizens, members of Croatia's so-called political parties, intercept adults and children and submit them to terror of the 'young Croatian democracy.'"

Tell me, are these all events that occurred at the time as is stated in this letter addressed to the Presidency of Yugoslavia and the federal government? Are they correct?

A. Among the things listed in this letter, parts are true, and I am aware of them, and some parts I cannot say because I didn't personally see it nor feel the consequences.

For example, in the area in which I lived, in the month of February 1991 there was no firing at houses, et cetera, but Serbs were fired in some institutions in which they were employed. I never heard of hospitals refusing to extend medical aid, for instance. And I heard of some other excesses but not of others that are listed here in the month of February 1991.

Q. When did you hear about all the excesses referred to in this letter, or were some of them fabricated?

A. These excesses, in my judgement, occurred from May up until August 1991, when armed conflict started in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and ²⁷⁵²⁸ Western Srem. I never heard of children being terrorised in February 1991.

Q. When did you hear of children being terrorised?

A. Never specifically did I hear children being terrorised unless the implication is to the time of war when everyone was terrorised and the children in particular.

Q. And do you know anything about the activities of Tomislav Mercep and his groups for silent liquidations and murdering of women and children in the area at any time at all?

A. Before the outbreak of conflicts, I frequently -- or, rather, I never entered the Vukovar and the area in which Mercep moved about, but I did hear from several information media and individuals that this did occur in the city of Vukovar and its environs, and it was perpetrated by Mercep and his groups.

Q. Did you hear of children being killed, civilians being killed? Did you have occasion to learn anything about such events?

A. With the beginning of the war, I did hear that civilians were killed, civilians in Vukovar, and there was a story about children, but it was never confirmed.

Q. The Presidency is criticised in this letter, saying that: "The programme of measures and activities for a lasting settlement of inter-ethnic conflicts adopted by the Presidency on the 9th of May is a trick for the Serbs; public law and order and safety are guaranteed in accordance with the constitutional legal system of the Republic of Croatia. In conditions when the Republic of Croatia does not recognise ²⁷⁵²⁹ the legal system of the Federation, the Serbs who live in the area are left defenseless in the face of Croatian state terror." And then it says: "Although the Presidency recommends that only legal local organs of internal affairs should move in the crisis areas, it is indirectly allowing the free movement of armed formations and armed citizens who, in accordance with the Croatian legal system, have been turned into legal local police organs. Since the Serbs are the only ones without arms and do not have their own armed units, it follows that the Presidency has, by its decision, actually given agreement to Croatian state terror to launch an open hunt against Serbs. All police stations in Croatia have classified lists of Serbs who allegedly participated in an armed rebellion and who need to be arrested or deprived of their lives, killed."

And then there is reference to an example of the arrest of a judge in Vukovar, et cetera. Are you familiar with these events?

A. I am with some, but for instance, I do not remember that there were lists in February 1991 of people charged with armed rebellion, because an armed rebellion had still not occurred in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. We're talking about February 1991.

Q. It's difficult to read when it was received in the Presidency. It's not February. It's in May. I apologise. We're referring to the month of May, not February.

A. Well, then that is quite possible. I also note the error now, as this was received by fax. It says the 29th of May, 1991, in the top left-hand corner. ^{27530 BLANK PAGE 27531}

Q. That's right. And it's dated the 28th of May and sent the following day.

Now that we have corrected or at least clarified the question of the date, did all these things happen at that time?

A. Well, it is possible now that Croats had such lists, as this was after Borovo Selo. So it's quite possible that Croats did have lists of persons who took part in the armed conflict in Borovo Selo - let us call it that - and that they asked that they be taken into custody. However, there was always a problem with regard to whether Croatia was entitled to expand its police forces.

Q. Let's not enter into that now. I'm asking you about things that you can testify about. I'm asking you about what is written in this letter.

JUDGE MAY: The witness can answer. He can't just answer yes to your questions. You must give him the opportunity to answer. He said there was a problem with regard to whether Croatia was entitled to expand its police forces.

Now, if you want to comment, Mr. Milanovic, about this letter, you're free to do so on what the accused is asking you, and don't let him interrupt you.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, please comment. Continue with your observations if you feel I interrupted you.

A. I said what I had in mind. ²⁷⁵³²

Q. So I didn't interrupt you. Then it goes on to say: "Though the Serbian people have agreed to the formation of a parity group for negotiations and selected the negotiators, it is obvious that the Presidency and the Presidencies of Yugoslavia did not expect an armed force to accept negotiations with unarmed Serbs. The decision of the Presidency of the 9th of May, 1991, is an entry ticket to a kind of new Jasenovac for the Serb people."

That is what is written in this letter of the National Council. Did you share that view in those days, that is in May 1991?

A. Not quite, but I did think that major problems would occur, because I followed the work of the Presidency of Yugoslavia which appeared to be -- did not function smoothly, and I think that the presidents of the republics had already started to organise those well-known meetings. None of it proved fruitful, and it couldn't be called a peaceful settlement. And already by then, that is the 9th of May, we had the events in Borovo Selo, and both peoples started to arm themselves, and one could feel the war in the offing. And the international community had still not sent its representatives to the area so that the conditions were there for the war to break out.

Q. In this letter of the Serbian National Council, there is reference to unarmed Serbs. Were the Serbs at the time armed or not?

A. In my assessment, on the 9th of May, 1991, or the 28th of May, 1991, both peoples had started to arm themselves, first with sidearms and sports weapons and later on with other weapons.

Q. Was that the reason why in the last paragraph it says: "Because ²⁷⁵³³ of all this and to avoid the threat to the survival of the Serb national being, the Serb people from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem will be forced to self-organise themselves and to prepare for self-defence." And then it goes on to say: "To avoid any possible military conflict, the Serb National Council is the only legitimate organ. Demands from the Federal Executive Council and the Presidency within the deadline they defined themselves of the next ten days to fulfil the obligation that Yugoslavia expects from them," because they had set a deadline for the disarming of those formations and for restoring some sort of order. Do you remember that? Is that right, Mr. Milanovic?

A. I would agree with this last paragraph.

Q. And with the other statements of the Serbian National Council above, that you don't agree?

A. I've already said that I partially agree and partially disagree.

Q. Very well. Look, please, at the documents that were tendered here en masse. Tell me, please, what does this one show? For instance, documents have been produced. I assume some sort of financial documents, accounts and bills of Zastava Promet Sombor, 02290394, ERN number.

JUDGE MAY: Are these the ones which were produced through the witness? Exhibit 549, is it? Is it one of the tabs, Mr. Milosevic? Just a moment. Is it tab 18?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Tab 18, Your Honour yes.

JUDGE MAY: Tab 18.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have tab indication here, Mr. May, but whatever I have I received from the opposite side. ²⁷⁵³⁴

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness has got it now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So 02290394. It's a bill from Zastava Promet in Sombor for T-shirts; belts; handcuffs; belt cases; berets, three. And then under the next number, this one ends with 394, then 395 again a copy of the same bill for 30 T-shirts, et cetera. Again three berets, cases, et cetera. These were purchased by the training centre of the TO. It says the purchaser is the special training centre for the Territorial Defence of the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem Erdut, purchased in Sombor. Then we have this bill as one document, then the same document -- same bill as another document.

So tell me, please, what -- I don't know how to put it. In producing these documents, what is the point? The fact that they purchased these things?

JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to say. That's for the Prosecution to say, whether there's any point. All the witness can do is comment on the document if you have any question you want to ask him about it. Whether there is any point to it we'll have to decide. It will be a matter for us to decide whether there is any significance in this at all. Do you want to ask him anything about it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as you can see, this is produced on two pieces of paper, the same copy of a totally insignificant bill, and I am just drawing your attention that we are being flooded with piles and piles of valueless documents.

There's a third, 02290396. Again Zastava Promet Sombor. Against ²⁷⁵³⁵ -- again there is reference to "termo dukx", again the training centre in Sombor.

And then on the next document bearing the following number, again 0397, I assume the witness, since these exhibits are being tendered through him, has some sort of criteria on the basis of which he considers these exhibits significant.

JUDGE MAY: No. It's really not for him to say whether the exhibits are significant. He can comment on them, of course, if he knows anything about them, but it's for the Prosecution to say whether there's any significance in them or not.

Let's ask. Mr. Milanovic, you see these various invoices. Did you come across invoices like this when you were working as the assistant minister?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as these invoices are concerned, all I can say is that they are correct. I see the date, that the date is the 27th of November, in fact -- or the 7th of November, 1991, and the authorities have still not started functioning properly. I'm not sure that all the ministries had actually been established at the time. I wasn't working in the Defence Ministry at the time, but I do have some information about it and know that during that period of time, various units in the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem did receive their supplies from any source they could, especially from the work organisations and companies that were close by. So they were given assistance by them, and they were able to procure equipment and various goods through them, and they would send in their bills, their invoices to ^{27536 BLANK PAGE 27537} the work organisations, such as this centre for special training, for example, at the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. It sent this invoice to the work organisation DP Dalj from Dalj. That's all I can say on the subject.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Now, that means that the training centre went to a shop in Sombor and bought these T-shirts, berets, and whatever. That's how it came by the necessary equipment.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let's just hurry up, because my time is going to run out soon.

Would you take a look at the list by the owner of the account in the Sombor branch, for example. And that's on page 0087699. And then the next one or two pages that follow after that, they are the account owners or invoice owners, yes?

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues]...

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have the number of that, please.

JUDGE KWON: Tab 20, Exhibit --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. They're all the accounts, different ones of private entrepreneurs, the proprietors of various coffee bars, and so on and so forth, shops, retail establishments, agricultural farms, factory farms, and so on. There are a lot of factory farms here. The employment bureau, the health fund, the various local communities, villages, and so on, primary schools, cinema club, bowling club, a butcher's shop, and so on. ²⁷⁵³⁸ So these were all people who had opened accounts, companies opening accounts or local communities opening their various accounts for them to do business. And this was registered by the social accounting service, the Sombor branch, and they opened their accounts in the nearest branches, in the Sombor branch for them to be able to undertake business transactions. Isn't that correct, Mr. Milanovic? So what has this to do with anything? Take a look at all those lists. There are several hundred different account holders, both individuals and companies, private individuals and legal entities. And even we see the Red Cross and the youth travel association, right up to the bowling clubs and all the rest.

So what's special in all this about them opening these accounts for them to be able to function normally and engage in business? This is elemental.

JUDGE MAY: Put the question this way: Do these -- do these documents show, Mr. Milanovic, do you agree with the accused, that they simply show that these businesses were functioning normally, that these organisations were functioning normally?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document proves the following: We're dealing with the 23rd of January, 1992. The balance and payments and payments transactions with Croatia was completely cut off and that all work organisations from the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem opened their own new accounts at the social accounting service in the Republic of Serbia for the Sombor and Odzak regions. And I'm sure there were some other towns as well, for them to be able to engage in business. ²⁷⁵³⁹ They were not able to trade before that because the payments transactions with Croatia had been cut off.

Q. So who cut off the payments transactions? Did they do that or did the social accounting service of Croatia quite simply cease to make any payments to them?

A. As the war had started, it was physically impossible to have any contacts, and I don't believe that either side ceased to cooperate. It was the war that put a stop to all transactions, including this kind of transaction.

Q. All right. Well, there's no purpose in me going on.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milanovic, I remember that you told us that among the account owners in this list is included the budget of Serbian district of Slavonia, Srem, Baranja, and Western Srem in the name of Goran Hadzic. Am I correct? If you look at the second page in B/C/S probably, under the number of 630-70008.

A. 630-70008 you said. What I remember is this: There was a decision to open up this account because the government of the region had some expenditure for its functioning, travelling expenses, its ministers and politicians, those who delved in politics and assumed positions at the time, and that is why this particular account was opened. But the signatory of that account was Goran Hadzic, who was at the same time the prime minister of the Serb district. So he was the signatory of the account, which means he could be the -- have been the beneficiary, but so could the other government members as well. They could have been beneficiaries too. ²⁷⁵⁴⁰

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, as far as this name is concerned, Mr. Milanovic, he comes under the column of persons representing firms or company representatives, because it states the account number, the name, the location, and the company representatives. Those are the columns in these lists. And just as the veterinary station of Beli Manastir is represented probably by its director, the budget similarly is represented -- the budget of the Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is represented or the funds can be signed by the president of that district, and he is the individual who is the authorised person to represent it and has a registered signature to represent that organisation. Isn't that right?

A. The practice in work organisations, in companies, and in political bodies and organs of a state is usually that people dealing with finance are those individuals, whether they were people who were head of the financial department or some other department, but having to do with monies. And if the decision was taken for the authorised person to be Goran Hadzic, this is not at issue, but it would be more logical had it been the Finance Minister, for example.

Q. What does it mean more logical? What does "more logical" mean? Do you consider that this was an extraordinary situation, that it was unusual for Goran Hadzic to represent the budget of the district and to say how the funds were to be used that were on the account? Was that out of the ordinary in any way then?

A. When I said "more logical", I consider that the prime minister has enough duties elsewhere which are significant for the state, whereas the ²⁷⁵⁴¹ Minister of Finance would necessarily deal with financial matters. It comes under his sector, which means that he has to sign invoices and accounts daily, keep records of this kind and so on.

Q. All right. There's no -- really no purpose in going on with this any further, because matters seem to be quite clear when we look at these, this mass of financial data and these lists.

A moment ago, I received a correction of an intercept, a corrigendum to an intercept. I think there was a printing or typing error somewhere, and it relates to CD 1/28/08-01-212 of the 30th of December, 1991.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that's tab 10 of the intercept binder.

THE REGISTRAR: 551.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The first thing that was corrected is this: It says -- I have it in English. "Well, I took this paper so that Vladan and Ratko could have a look at it. [In English] The declaration itself is good. I've read it."

[Interpretation] The question asked was who this was about, because the names used are Vladan and Ratko. And we're dealing with some legal documents here, a declaration, in actual fact, constitutional matter, things of that type. Isn't that right?

A. If you're asking me, then my answer is yes.

Q. Well, Ratko Markovic, I assume that's not at issue. He is Professor of law, Professor Dr. Ratko Markovic is his name and title? And ^{27542 BLANK PAGE 27543} Vladan was Professor Dr. Vladan Kutlesic, and both those two men were participants in the writing of the constitution of Serbia and Yugoslavia, which means they were prominent legal men who looked at documents; right?

A. Right.

Q. So what is asked is their professional opinion with respect to some legal documents that had a legal and constitutional nature. Isn't that right, Mr. Milanovic?

A. That is right, and I assume correctly, because it says Vladan and Ratko here, and as I said that I did some work with respect to legal issues with Mr. Ratko Markovic, then I assume correctly that that was the people that were referred to, and I recognise this in the conversation mentioned here.

Q. So what they're talking about is how relations were being set up and discussion between two legal men with respect to the declaration and the relations asserted therein or treated in any other way. Isn't that right?

A. Yes, that's right. And as far as I understand it or as far as I remember it, I haven't read it now, you are recommending them to your -- you tell your interlocutors to have a look at the subject matter from a professional viewpoint.

Q. All right. Fine. There are very many intercepts here. When did you listen to all these conversations for you to be able to identify them shown to you by the opposite side?

A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but it was approximately three weeks ago. ²⁷⁵⁴⁴

Q. And you were able to identify some of them on the basis of the people you knew and the rest on the basis of the media?

A. Yes. More on the basis of the people that I knew and a fewer number that I knew through the media.

Q. All right. Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, I think this is tab 8 that I want to look at next.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. 0206699. As what is being quoted here, I think this is the substance of it. What is stated is the following: "Slobodan Milosevic, SM," and we're talking about this intercepted conversation, Radovan Karadzic and myself.

JUDGE MAY: What is the date, Mr. Milosevic, so we can identify it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date is the 25th of December, 1991. It is tab 8, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I say to Karadzic: "... the Presidency, and you are making certain mistakes. You have forgotten to see the most important thing when you question Alija Izetbegovic." Radovan Karadzic and myself. Then I say: "The worst thing isn't that he is doing it without the consensus of all three peoples but ..." And then Karadzic says: "But he is doing a criminal act." And I go back to what I was saying: "The worst thing is ²⁷⁵⁴⁵ the following: That Bosnia-Herzegovina, by a decision of this kind, has violated its own constitution." And Karadzic says: "Yes, we've already said that." And then Milosevic again: "The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina defines Bosnia and Herzegovina as a republic within the frameworks of Yugoslavia. So it's different to the constitution of Macedonia, Croatia and Slovenia," 'it' meaning the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. "They at least issued their own constitutions defining themselves as independent states." And then Karadzic says: "Yes, yes."

Then once again I go on to explain and say that he hasn't only violated the constitution in the sense that you need the consensus of all three peoples, he's also -- he's also changed the status of Bosnia-Herzegovina without changing its constitution, because it is in the constitution of the BH that it is stated that it is a Yugoslav republic, a Republic of Yugoslavia. And then we go on to say that it is necessary to clear matters up in a calm, logical, and legal procedure. Is that then the best proof that efforts were being made legally and lawfully, in a constitutional manner, to set up the relationships here and that nobody spoke of any war here or violence of any kind but quite the contrary, the need to respect the constitution and for those relationships to be set up accordingly, if necessary through changes and amendments, but pursuant to the procedure, the constitution of Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and so on and so forth.

And as you yourself looked at these intercepted conversations, that would be the essence of them. Isn't that right, Mr. Milanovic? ²⁷⁵⁴⁶

A. I did listen to this conversation, and it is an authentic one. And among other things in this conversation, you said that too.

Q. All right, Mr. Milanovic. I won't pursue this line of questioning, but the endeavours, I suppose, are clear. I have to ask some more questions to clarify certain matters. During your examination-in-chief here, you spoke about the presence of Kosutic, Crncevic, Cvijan, or rather, you were asked about the Assembly and their presence at the Assembly. Isn't that right?

A. Yes. These people were mentioned, and they attended the Assembly as guests, in the capacity of guest.

Q. That's what I wanted to establish. You call -- invited people from Belgrade to be guests. They had no active role to play. They had merely come having been invited as guests, they took their seats in the front row and listened to your Assembly meeting; isn't that right?

A. Yes. They were present as guests attending the district's Assembly session.

Q. Did they have any active role to play in the work of the Assembly or were they just there in the capacity of guests being -- having been invited by you to attend?

A. As far as I know, they were merely guests. They were not active participants at all.

Q. As is customary. When a guest comes in, he sits down, listens to what's going on, and then he goes home and that's all; is that right? Now, tell me this, please: You said during the

examination-in-chief, or in response to a question put to you by the ²⁷⁵⁴⁷ opposite side, that the Croats from your village left at the end of June 1991, when the war operations began; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And you say that you discussed the safety of the Croats at a meeting with them; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And what did they ask of you at that time?

A. They didn't ask for anything in particular. We had a meeting as to what should be done next, and they asked me at the meeting whether we could guarantee their safety.

Q. And what was your answer?

A. My answer was that we couldn't guarantee their safety and that they should decide themselves at their own risk whether they would stay in the village or leave, and when the situation calms down, they could come back.

Q. Tell me, why couldn't you guarantee their safety?

A. In the environs, there were active operations ongoing already, and we didn't know who would come, who wouldn't come, what would happen. We sought to save ourselves, and we thought that we wouldn't be able to care for them, and that is when they decided to leave.

Q. Are you claiming that they decided to leave out of fear for their own safety?

A. Yes, that's what I'm claiming.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have one minute more. ^{27548 BLANK PAGE 27549}

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wasn't watching the time. I wanted to ask the witness something about him.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Before the outbreak of the conflict, you lived in a poor family, you engaged in the production of melons, watermelons, you drove an asphalt-making machine in the company for roads?

A. I don't think I ever lived in a poor family, because the rule in the last 50 years or, rather, my family was thought to be the wealthiest in that village in the last 50 years.

Q. Do you have a company called Famis, in the name of your wife?

A. Yes. About two years ago, we have a company that is called Famis, and it is in my wife's name, and she's working together with the other family members.

Q. Is it true that you have two apartments in Belgrade and a villa at Dedinje or Senjak?

A. It is not true that I have two apartments. I have one apartment in Dedinje and a small house of 106 square metres in Senjak. If that can be considered a villa, then I accept.

Q. Tell me, please, how many cars do you own?

JUDGE MAY: What's relevance of this?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is relevant to see how someone who was a tradesman in watermelon became a very rich man in Serbia.

JUDGE MAY: I can't see any relevance in that at all even if true. He's told you he was not simply a tradesman in watermelons.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have occasion to ²⁷⁵⁵⁰ clear that up.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, Mr. Milanovic, were you, in connection with your testimony, a suspect at any point in time or were you asked to testify only as a witness, and how did that come about?

A. I'm 48 years old and never in my life was I suspected of anything. And this applies to the present as well. And in a conversation with an investigator, Vladimir Dzuro, I agreed to come to this Tribunal.

Q. How did you get in touch with Vladimir Dzuro and how did the idea come about for you to testify?

A. I can't remember exactly, but if I could think it over closely, I would remember the name. Anyway, someone gave him my telephone number. He called me up and came to see me.

Q. Does that mean that there was no mention of any possible grounds for you to be suspected for certain things from the period about which you're testifying now?

A. I'm quite sure that I cannot be suspected, because I know what I did, and especially as I wasn't active until the end of 1991, that is the beginning of 1992 when active combat started. So there's absolutely no grounds for suspecting me.

JUDGE MAY: You have had well over your time, Mr. Milosevic. I'm going to ask Mr. Kay if he has any questions.

Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. Witness, I'm just looking at paragraph 2 of your statement, and it seems that in 1990, you were president of your local commune and were not ²⁷⁵⁵¹ involved in politics in any serious way. Is that right?

A. I think that I was the president of the local commune for several years, perhaps the youngest one in the former Yugoslavia, and I was involved in politics from my early youth.

Q. Had you been active in a -- in a political party, then, before 1991?

A. I was in the only one; that is, I was a member of the League of Communists.

Q. After May 1990 and the elections in Croatia, it was then that you became involved in the political party in Croatia which represented the interest of the Serbs; is that right?

A. That is not correct. I was not a member of the party representing the interests of the Serbs, but I joined the authorities as president of the local commune, and until the very end, I didn't join a single party, and I am not a member of any party today, and not of the SDS either.

Q. So when you were on the Serbian National Council, would it be right to describe you as an independent?

A. One could put it that way.

Q. And you were appointed the acting Minister of Defence within the Serbian Krajina as an independent, without representing any political party?

A. Correct.

Q. And you remained in that position, working with various of the leaders of the time, Goran Hadzic, Milan Babic, Milan Martic? You were working with those people on the Serbian National Council; is that right? ²⁷⁵⁵²

A. In the Serbian National Council very little, but in the government of Krajina, yes.

Q. In relation to the three men I just mentioned there, Milan Martic, Goran Hadzic, Milan Babic, it's quite clear from your statement, and I'm looking at paragraph 39 here, that there was a -- a power struggle between those three.

I'm referring to paragraph 39 to assist the Judges, Witness. There is nothing particular in there for you. But it's right that you give the impression of a power struggle between those three?

A. If that is the question, a power struggle did exist.

Q. What was the differences between, first of all, Goran Hadzic and Milan Babic?

A. The differences were of a political nature. With respect to certain political matters, their views differed, and they were constantly quarrelling. Babic frequently accused Goran of not doing his work properly, that he was supported by Belgrade and that was the only reason he was in power, whereas Goran accused Babic of various things.

Q. Was it in the way that they went about their business or political differences between the two?

A. I think that there were political differences, and these were only reflected on their work.

Q. And so how would you express that political difference in a simple form as the difference between Hadzic and Babic?

A. I think that the basic political difference between them, if I can call it that, was that Babic advocated the position that Krajina should ²⁷⁵⁵³ pursue an independent policy, whereas Goran Hadzic believed that we should rely more on our motherland, that is Serbia.

Q. And in relation to Milan Martic, he also had differences with the other two. What was his different position, if you could describe that?

A. The difference between Martic and Babic, in my judgement, was similar to the difference between Hadzic and Babic. Martic also felt that we should rely more on the motherland, and Babic the other way round.

Q. And the difference between Martic and Hadzic?

A. In my view, there were no political differences between them. Both held the same position, but Martic was more critical of Hadzic in the sense of him being unable to do his work properly, that he wasn't serious enough, whereas Hadzic accused Martic of being a mere policeman who shouldn't get involved in politics.

Q. These political differences between the three made it very difficult, did it not, for there to be any settled or unified front within the government?

A. It was very difficult to work under those circumstances in Krajina.

Q. All three were operating different levers of power and working often against each other.

A. You're right.

Q. And that was not in the best interests of the region or the people who lived there.

A. That's right.

Q. When it came to the Erdut agreement in 1995, you signed that ^{27554 BLANK PAGE 27555} agreement, and it achieved from that moment a peace and end to the conflict.

A. Correct.

Q. You signed that -- that agreement to avoid further war with Croatia.

A. Having the experiences of the lower part of Krajina in mind when Martic wouldn't accept or negotiate, not to mention sign the Z4 plan, which I think was a major error for the people of Krajina, I had no other option but to get the most we could by peaceful means, and that was the agreement. And its greatest positive side was that the solution was a peaceful one, and the people would have the time of one year plus another year to be able to decide themselves.

Q. When you signed that agreement and after you assigned that agreement, the local politicians and others were hostile to you. That is right, isn't it?

A. Mostly all, that is five presidents of municipalities, as many as there were in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and Goran Hadzic were against the agreement. However, after protracted persuasion, they agreed to it. But after the signature was affixed, I was attacked with heavy cannon to leave as soon as possible, and I left after the successful demilitarisation at the end of April 1996.

Q. Before you signed that agreement in Erdut, it was Slobodan Milosevic who told you to sign that.

A. I received a message from Dayton from Mr. Milosevic, through Mr. Zika Jovanovic, who was then Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs, to ²⁷⁵⁵⁶ the effect that President Milosevic said that it would be a good thing and that it should be done. However, from his closest associates - one could call them closest - I received opposite messages, that is that I shouldn't do it, and then I decided to do it nevertheless, because I knew that if I didn't do it on Saturday, that on Sunday the Croatian army would attack Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. And when Slobodan Milosevic returned from Erdut, he told you that you had done the right thing as he instructed, to sign the agreement for peace.

A. Yes. He told me that I had done the right thing, and that was the only right thing to do, that the international community was putting great pressure on us, there was no other option. He asked me whether any of his men had criticised me. I said they hadn't.

Mr. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, a few minutes. Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. To start with what Mr. Kay ended with, you said that you were -- the local politicians and Goran Hadzic acted hostile against you after the signing of the Erdut agreement. At that time after the signing of the Erdut agreement, did Mr. Milosevic support you against Goran Hadzic and the other local politicians that acted hostile against you or did he not?

A. Mr. Milosevic knew about these attacks by Goran Hadzic and the other politicians against me after the signing of the agreement, and on several occasions he told me that, that various delegations were coming to see him and that they were complaining about me. And at first, I think he ²⁷⁵⁵⁷ had a neutral position. I know that. That is true. But as time passed, the demilitarisation was completed, the main things had been done in the area; people had been disarmed, various units crossed into Serbia in plain clothes, and I think that most of the job had been done. Then, nevertheless, at a meeting he said that there were too many criticisms levelled against me, and the best thing for me to do would be to withdraw, to retire.

Q. Did you -- did he give you any explanation why he could not support you against those critics, or do you know why?

A. I don't know, but at the time, Mr. Milosevic was powerful, and I didn't ask him any such thing.

Q. In relation to the budget of the RSK, Mr. Milosevic questioned you about the income from the oil fields. Was the crude oil sold for a realistic price or a lower price?

A. The oil was not sold as crude oil but in processed form at a low price. I remember roughly that this was around 30 pfennig; whereas, the market price, because there was an embargo and there was a blockade, it was sold at a price of between four and more marks.

Q. And who profited from this, selling the oil for such a low price?

A. Officially the oil was sold by the oil industry of Krajina. So that means that the company should have profited, but I believe that the people who purchased the oil at 30 or so pfennigs a litre and sold it at a higher price were the ones that profited.

Q. And those people were where or who?

A. The people who were close to the government. ²⁷⁵⁵⁸

Q. Mr. Milosevic asked you about the attack on Palaca. Was your village attacked by the villagers from Laslovo, or were they attacked by the ZNG forces from elsewhere?

A. During the attack by Croatian forces on Palaca, I didn't know exactly who had attacked us, but after some time, I watched a Croatian officer who was bragging that this was in fact the first organised attack by the Croatian army against a locality, in this case Palaca, and it took place after an order by their command that they should move from Osijek via Vinkovci to Borovo Selo, and the operation was halted. They didn't attack Borovo Selo, but on the way back to Osijek, they attacked Palaca. According to what the Croatian officer who participated in the attack recounted himself.

Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you that the leadership of Serbia always advocated and supported peace, and your answer to this proposition was that sometimes it was like that and sometimes it was not. Do you recall times or events when the Serbian leadership, in particular Mr. Milosevic, did not support peace?

A. I couldn't answer that question in concrete terms, but I'll give you an example. It is not logical for Milan Martic, who was supported by Belgrade all the years, that means for six years, in fact, it supported him for six years, and when it came to accepting the Z-4 plan, he did not accept it; whereas the extreme man, Babic, who had been considered such, strove for having the Z-4 plan accepted and later on signed it in Vienna, although the -- although Croatia had already launched an attack on that part of Krajina. ²⁷⁵⁵⁹

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this concludes my questions.

JUDGE MAY: One matter of housekeeping. I'm asked to note for the record that the original translation for Exhibit 551, tab 10, has been substituted by the new translation which we have all had today. Mr. Milanovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: One matter before we adjourn. We will, in fact, adjourn before the next witness and take the break slightly early, and it is this, it involves all parties: We have to deal with the order and make arrangements for the hearing of the evidence of Lord Owen, and that will involve considering how long should be allowed for examination by the parties. I'm not going to ask for that now, but tomorrow I would be grateful to have some idea of how long the parties would wish to have for the -- his examination so we can make up an order. So we will discuss it tomorrow.

MR. KAY: Your Honour, just while we're on that subject --

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. KAY: -- it's really how his evidence is presented. Will the Prosecution be asking him questions in chief, so to speak?

JUDGE MAY: No.

MR. KAY: I know he's a court witness. How is it going to be done?

JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't know if you were here with the last ^{27560 BLANK PAGE 27561} court witness we had, Dr. Ranta.

MR. KAY: I was, but I can't remember it.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. In the same way, we'll start off with examination. We may consider inviting the witness, if he wants, to make a short statement, but we have his statement which is in written form. It will then be a question of cross-examination by all parties, and we will probably follow the same form as we did before.

MR. KAY: That's helpful to know that.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. And the only issue we would welcome submissions on, we'll hear -- or, rather, we'll hear the parties on is how long they all want.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now, 20 minutes, and then we'll start the next witness.

--- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you would like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1115

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Bibles. ²⁷⁵⁶²

MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would first inquire regarding the motion, the 92 bis motion.

JUDGE MAY: It's been granted and there's a written order which should be out by now.

MS. BIBLES: Thank you. If we could first begin by showing the witness the background sheet.

Examined by Ms. Bibles:

Q. Is that your name on top of the piece of paper that you're looking at?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the information contained on that page correct?

A. Yes.

MS. BIBLES: I'd next ask that he be shown the 92 bis packet, please.

Q. If you could please look at that packet in front of you and tell us whether that is a packet that contains two statements of yours.

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did you meet with a member of the registrar on the 15th of November of 2001 to certificate those statements?

A. I did?

MS. BIBLES: At this time I'd ask that we have exhibit numbers for both the background sheet and the 92 bis packet and move both under seal into admission.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the pseudonym sheet is 554 under seal, and the Rule 92 bis statement is 554 -- 555 under seal. ²⁷⁵⁶³

MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, this is a witness who lived most of his life in the Gornja Grapska, which is predominantly Muslim village in the municipality of Doboj. At the time that the conflict broke out in 1992, he was retired from a career as a professional policeman. His statements will tell you that the population of Doboj prior to the conflict was about 60.000 people, roughly divided equally between Muslims and Serbs. While the town of Doboj had a higher number of Muslims, most of the villages were Serb villages. His evidence, which is contained in the 92 bis statements, are broken down into two primary areas of interest. The first is with respect to the takeover of Doboj and the attack on his village. The second aspect of his statements refers to his time, his considerable amount of time in detention.

With respect to the takeover of Doboj in February of 1992, a Muslim policeman from his village was given the task of establishing a reserve police unit in the village. These instructions came from headquarters in Doboj.

The witness assisted in setting up this unit as he thought it would help stabilise a situation that was deteriorating and that it might assist in maintaining good relations with the police in Doboj town. The unit was comprised of reserve policemen, Muslim policemen from his village, and Serb reserve policemen from a neighbouring Serb hamlet. The reserve unit basically was to keep peace in the village. Two to three weeks after the unit was established, the Serb members of the unit said that they were prohibited from being part of this ²⁷⁵⁶⁴ unit any more. They asked for and received their weapons, ammunition and equipment, and left the unit.

THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. Thank you.

MS. BIBLES: The Serbs set up barricades in Doboj in mid-April of 1992. These were manned by local Serbs who were armed with professional military weapons. Two machine-guns were pointed at Gornja Grapska. From the time the barricades went up, the Muslims from this village were not permitted to pass through the village and were effectively cut off. On the 9th of May, 1992, six days after the town of Doboj was occupied, the witness and others in his village realised that they were about to be attacked as Serb paramilitary formations were gathering around the village. The villagers in his home tried to evacuate women, children, and elderly but were prohibited by armed Serbs from doing so. The Serb attack on Gornja Grapska took place on the 10th of May, 1992. The attacking Serbs wore JNA camouflage uniforms and were well-armed with professional JNA automatic rifles and weapons. Aside from some hunting rifles and other small arms, the villagers were unarmed. The witness did not hear a single shot being fired in defence of the village. The Serbs shelled the village throughout the day. During the shelling, 34 villagers were killed. These included men, women, and children. None the villagers were in military uniform. They were civilians.

After the shelling of the village, the infantry attack started about 5.00 p.m. in the afternoon. This did not last very long as the Serbs came into the village unopposed. As he was led from his home one ²⁷⁵⁶⁵ image that haunts this witness was seeing the lifeless body of a young 5-year-old child, lying with his eyes open. The residents were rounded up and went to a Serb village where the women and children were separated from the men and the men were detained.

This leads to the second area of the substance of the witness's evidence. The witness was first detained in the warehouse at Bare. This was for approximately a week in May. He notes that they were treated like cattle, kicked and beaten. The facilities at Bare had been military hangars before the war. The witness was detained there and noted that approximately 1.200 people were kept there during the time he was there, and they were kept in these five hangars, each of which contained up to 300 men. The conditions in this facility were cruel. On the 18th of May, 1992, the witness and 27 other Muslim men were taken to the Spreca prison in Doboj. The witness would remain there until the 9th of February, 1993. Upon arrival, the prisoners were told that they were now in a Serbian state and that they could be treated as the Serbs wanted. The prisoners were beaten, humiliated and killed. Each of the eight cells in the facility usually housed approximately a hundred people. During the months that the witness was detained there, approximately 5.000 people passed through that prison. People came and left on a daily basis. During the entire time that he was there prisoners were taken out at night and then they would never be seen again. Whenever people were taken away, the witness and others would wonder if they would be the next ones. As bad as the physical torture at the prison was, the physical or the psychological anxiety was worse. At Spreca, the prisoners ^{27566 BLANK PAGE 27567} were taken out daily to do forced labour. Among the tasks that the witness performed was burying dead bodies. Another task was going through villages that had been taken over by the Serbs and removing anything of value so that the Serbs could take those items for themselves. In these villages, the witness saw civilian people who had been killed. Most of them were older and people who could not run away during the attack. Most of the witness's forced labour was at the JNA barracks in Doboj. These barracks were the headquarters of all military activities in the territory. The commander of this facility was a regular officer of the JNA. All the regular army units, reserve units, and paramilitary units operating in Doboj were based there. Among the paramilitary units that the witness saw there were the White Eagles, the Martic police, and the Knindza.

On one occasion he saw approximately 300 local Serbs being trained by the Montenegrin Red Berets. The witness also noted that when units would come back after an unsuccessful battle, they would frequently abuse the detainees. On cleaning the barracks, the witness found blood and human teeth on the floor where people had been beaten. He noted that the JNA commanders were there throughout the entire time, saw all of this, and allowed it to happen.

On the 9th of February, 1993, the witness was transferred with 40 others on a bus to a prison in Banja Luka. The detainees were told that they were being taken to be judged. At this prison, the detainees were taken out for interrogation regarding political matters. During the days the detainees were forced to sit without moving, without talking, on ²⁷⁵⁶⁸ chairs from 7:00 in the morning until 7:00 at night. His detention in Banja Luka ended on about the 16th or 17th of May, 1993 when he was transported to Usora prison in Doboj. Again there were beatings and people disappearing at night.

During this time, the witness worked at a local factory in Doboj as his forced labour. He was kept there until the 1st of October, 1993, when he was exchanged. During his time in detention, the witness lost approximately 25 kilogrammes. To this day, he still suffers the physical consequences of his detention.

Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. Mr. B-1115, I only have excepts from the documents. I know nothing about Doboj, so I'm going to ask you to clear some things up that were mentioned.

You are testifying, as far as I was able to read from what I've been given and from what the brief summary stated, about the events in Doboj and about the suffering of the unprotected Muslims there; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You speak about paramilitary formations and the Yugoslav People's Army in that respect.

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me, do you know when the Yugoslav People's Army left the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? ²⁷⁵⁶⁹

A. I do not know that.

Q. Is it true that things were the reverse and that the defence of Doboj during those war years was very difficult because Doboj was attacked practically from all sides, both by the Muslim and by the Croatian forces?

A. No, that is not correct. Doboj was not attacked either by the Muslim or by the Croatian forces, but on Sunday the 3rd of May, 1992, it was attacked by the Serb army, and that's how it was taken over.

Q. All right. When you say attacked by the Serb army, didn't Serbs live in Doboj? Weren't they there already?

A. Yes, they were there, but they were all wearing uniforms, all the military-able men.

Q. Did you know them?

A. I knew some of them.

Q. Do you happen to know that throughout the time you're testifying about there were continuous attacks launched at Doboj, especially in 1992, from regular units from neighbouring Croatia as well as by paramilitary formations from Bosnia-Herzegovina, both Muslim and Croatian?

A. I can't claim that that is not so, but I don't know whether it is or not.

Q. All right. Now, do you know that various paramilitary formations were established, Muslim and Croatian ones, precisely in the municipality of Doboj itself?

A. No, I don't know that.

Q. Well, do you know anything about the attacks at the Serb forces in the Doboj area from the regions of neighbouring municipalities Gracanica, ²⁷⁵⁷⁰ Zavidovici and Maglaj?

A. That was not in May 1992. If it did happen, then when they started to take control of the towns and villages, then they were standing up to the BH army, and I assume that these conflicts broke out in that regard.

Q. Well, Gracanica, Maglaj and Zavidovici, are they neighbouring municipalities?

A. Well, Zavidovici is further away but Maglaj and Doboj, yes, they are.

Q. Were the Muslim forces in Gracanica?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Well, is it from Gracanica that they attacked Doboj?

A. I don't know what they could have attacked with.

Q. What do you mean they could have attacked with? With weapons, of course.

A. I was exchanged in 1993, on the 1st of October, and when I reached the Gracanica area and when I looked at the members -- saw the members of the BH army there, quite simply - and believe me when I say this - I felt fear, because I had come from an area, as I was travelling to be exchanged, I encountered vast artillery weapons ranging from tanks and other artillery pieces, and I was very much afraid when I crossed over to that region because I thought, "Well, I'll probably be killed here." And when I looked to the other side, there were just a few sporadic rifles.

Q. When you say there were just sporadic rifles, do you remember when the so-called Patriotic League was first formed, for example? ²⁷⁵⁷¹

A. I can't know that, because at that time I was incarcerated.

Q. Well, it was established quite a long time before you were taken prisoner.

A. I must say that I retired before the war, I was a pensioner, and went about my own business as such, and I was loyal to my household. I wasn't interested in any parties or the Patriotic League or one side or another. All I did was work for myself and my family.

Q. All right. Now, as you say that it was only sometime in May that you were exposed to these conflicts, do you happen to know that during that period of time, the one you're testifying about, the Muslim forces and the Croatian forces to all intents and purposes had taken control of all major towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Except for the Doboj, which was encircled and a part of Sarajevo and the town of Banja Luka, which was in a relatively secure Serb encirclement, all the other larger towns were practically in the hands of the Patriotic League and the Croatian forces.

A. Well, I don't know how to answer that question. All I can say is that I don't know how they could have fallen into the hands of the Patriotic League and other units that you mentioned. I don't know about any of that.

Q. All right. You're a man who worked in a state organisation. You were a policeman, you had a certain amount of education and training. So the largest towns that I mentioned, the university centres in Bosnia and Herzegovina, apart from Banja Luka which was mostly populated by the Serbs, and Sarajevo, the greatest part of it, Mostar, Tuzla, and the other three university centres and the largest industrial centres as well, all ^{27572 BLANK PAGE 27573} of them were in the hands of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO; isn't that right? Is it or not?

A. I should like to emphasise once again that I don't know about any of that.

Q. Well, do you know anything about the time when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. All I know is the time it spent in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and those imprints have stayed to the present day on me, on my environment. But when it pulled out, I really don't know.

Q. All right. A moment ago, as you yourself said, and it was also mentioned in paragraph 14 of your statement, that in February 1992, a policeman by the name of Refik Buljubasic from your village was given the assignment of establishing a reserve police unit in your village; is that right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is it also true that that order was received by him from the headquarters in Doboj?

A. Yes, that is correct. And later on, when I was able to analyse all this in greater detail, I came to the knowledge that, nonetheless, all the members of the police force who were Muslims were dealt with in the same way at the police station in Doboj.

Q. What do you mean by "dealt with"? What do you mean by that?

A. Well, they wanted only Serbs to remain in the police station in Doboj and all the Muslims allegedly should set up in their local communities some sort of police stations of mixed composition, and yes it ²⁷⁵⁷⁴ was a mixed composition up to a certain period of time when they received orders that they had to withdraw from the -- withdraw and separate. So they then took their weapons, ammunition, and we never saw them again.

Q. All right. So you helped Refik Buljubasic to establish that unit made up of reserve policemen; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this reserve unit had as its task to maintain law and order in the village; is that right?

A. Yes, law and order in the village.

Q. Was there any unrest in the village and did the police have to intervene? Is that what they did, to have a police force concentration in the village? What was the reason for that? What was happening in the village?

A. The police unit set up in my own native village had as its assignment and task to keep the peace, to establish law and order and prevent any crimes from being committed within their own ethnic group. However, this was a formality, and there were few incidents, maybe in coffee bars when the youngsters would have a little too much to drink, alcoholic drink, but this was all negligible and more or less normal.

Q. So there was no unrest in your village, and yet this unit was set up. Is that it?

A. Well, we could say that there was no unrest.

Q. How many members did that unit have?

A. Approximately 36 men.

Q. All right. So a 36-man unit was established in the village in ²⁷⁵⁷⁵ which there was no unrest. Well, wasn't this a question of an obvious paramilitary formation being formed in the village? Wasn't that it?

A. You mean the reserve police unit that was established?

Q. I mean this 30-odd man unit set up in a village in which you said was mostly inhabited by Muslims, there was no unrest, and yet a unit, as you yourself say, was formed of about 30 people or more. Isn't that a paramilitary formation, a paramilitary unit formed in the village?

A. Your Honours, it is true that a police -- a reserve police unit was established, however, what I wish to say is it is easy to draw a conclusion now and say that it was a paramilitary formation, but there were Serb members of the reserve police force. Then it wasn't a paramilitary force. Then once they withdrew, suddenly it was characterised as being a paramilitary formation. How come?

Q. I see. That's when they were termed in this way. I understood from what you said that in your -- your village was inhabited by Muslims alone.

A. The majority population in my village was Muslim, that is true, but it was divided into two parts. One district was more numerous, and that was the Muslim populated district. And the other district was inhabited by the Serb population.

Q. All right. And the unit that was established in your village, that is to say in the Muslim part of your village, these several members who were Serbs were actually from the neighbouring settlement as you said, or district; is that right?

A. Well, it's the same area. It's just 20 or 30 metres apart. ²⁷⁵⁷⁶

Q. But they were not actually from your village but from the immediate vicinity, and then they left you?

A. No. They were from my village. It was an united village, and we were always registered and classed as a united village, one village in all the documents. But in addition to the Serb members of the reserve police unit, there were active-duty policemen as well. It wasn't only a reserve police force.

Q. All right. I assume that there was an active policeman here and there, but before the events unfolded, was there any police unit in the village at all before that?

A. Yes, that reserve police force.

Q. All right. Reserve police force. That means civilians sitting at home that might be reservists, but there was no police in the village?

A. No, no regular police, no.

Q. Well, then, overnight suddenly as you yourself said, there was a group of some 30 armed men appearing in your village; right?

A. No. It's not a group. It's a registered reserve police station armed by the police station in Doboj. You know that police station was not formed then, it was formed before, some 20 years ago. There were reservists as members who had up to 15 and 20 years of service who had their own weapons on them which were never taken away from them until the war.

Q. Since the JNA was pulling out of Bosnia and the Serbs in the meantime did not manage to organise their own defence, is it true that in opposition -- as opposed to them, there was a large number of paramilitary ²⁷⁵⁷⁷ units in those socio-political communities consisting of Muslims and Croats in the TO in Northern Bosnia?

A. I can only talk about my own settlement where I lived as a pensioner. I didn't move around much. I took care of my own business.

Q. Very well. Though you acted in that way and you were in this unit and you helped Refik Buljubasic to form it, already at the beginning of 1992, virtually in all municipalities there wasn't a municipality without a smaller or larger unit of the Patriotic League, the National Guards Corps, the Green Berets, and others.

JUDGE MAY: Now, we did go through this. It was not the first witness. There may have been a great many. You've heard his answer. He can only deal with his own area. You choose then to ask him general questions and a great deal of time is wasted. He's told you he can't answer. He can deal with his own area specifically.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Are you aware in your area, precisely because of the existence of all these formations that came into being at the time, that is in 1992, there were large casualties among the Serbs, the largest being in 1992?

A. I'd just like to know where.

Q. For instance, in your own municipality of Doboj. Do you have any idea about the environment in Doboj and how many victims there were among the Serbs in Doboj?

A. Your Honours, I must address you and say believe me, I have nothing to do with any of that. I never heard of that. ^{27578 BLANK PAGE 27579}

Q. So you heard nothing about fighting around Doboj and the battlefield around Doboj, Ozren, and this whole region and things that were happening there, very intensified combat during the war?

A. If you're talking about the beginning of the war, then you must understand that for 520 days or for 17 months, almost 18, I was in the hands of the Serb army.

Q. Okay. Now let's see what you do know. You say that the Serbs set up barricades in Kostajnica. Kostajnica is a part of Doboj, isn't it?

A. Yes, a suburb of Doboj.

Q. And that they set up the barricade in April 1992. You say that there were two machine-gun nests there.

A. Yes.

Q. And those machine-guns were pointed towards Gornja Grapska, so you were unable to reach Doboj.

A. Towards Gornja Grapska and the right bank of the Bosna River and the plains along that route. So it was not possible to leave my native village and go in the direction of Doboj.

Q. And the road led through the woods and hills towards Gracanica?

A. Yes. Those are dirt roads through the woods that I used to use as a child.

Q. And who controlled those roads?

A. It was controlled by the army -- rather, the Serbian army.

Q. And do you know that it was in 1992, precisely in April, in the town of Doboj itself the Muslims started erecting barricades and prevented communications and supplies reaching the population and prevented safe ²⁷⁵⁸⁰ local and transit traffic?

A. I must add in connection with that road that led towards Gracanica, and you could also take it to go to Doboj, that eight of our civilians were captured. They had tried to leave this hell, and they were captured. Out of the eight, all were taken to prison. Four came out, and four of them were killed.

Q. You say in paragraph 16 that on the 8th of April, eight persons tried to escape by this route. They were arrested and taken to the Spreca prison in Doboj, and four of them were later killed. The other four were liberated later on. Is that right?

A. That's what I just said a moment ago.

Q. Yes. How do you know that these four were killed?

A. I know. First of all, there is no trace of them to this day. Secondly, one of the four was found in Slavonski Brod after the war when mass graves were exhumed, and through a DNA analysis it was established that he was one of the eight.

When they killed those men, the Serbian army, when carrying out exchanges with Croatia across the Sava River at Slavonski Brod, they would give those men in black body bags to be exchanged, and now that the dust has settled, it has become clear that this one was one of the eight.

Q. According to the data and information I have in these documents, when the dead were exchanged, it was those who were killed in battle that were exchanged.

A. I just pointed out that this was a case in the area of Modrica.

Q. Very well. How do you know that those eight who were trying to ²⁷⁵⁸¹ break through, that four of them were not killed during the attempted breakthrough and the other four captured? But rather, you claim that eight were captured and four of them killed. Couldn't it be the other way round?

A. When you say "breakthrough," it's not a breakthrough. People were trying to leave their village because their lives were in danger. Now, whether they were killed in battle, then these other four who were released and who are free and who are all over Europe, they say that it was as I put it.

Q. Those eight who were going along that road, are you claiming that they were unarmed?

A. Yes, unarmed. I know all eight of those men.

Q. You go on to say on page 4, in the first paragraph, which begins on page 4, and you say: "In my first statement, on page 2 I refer to a delegation which went to Busletic. Some days before that, the same delegation went to see Boro Paravac who was staying at his brother's house in Kostajnica."

A. Yes.

Q. "He had invited us there to tell us not to make any problems for the military convoys coming through our village." So you had an armed unit in the village, and they are making arrangements with you not to cause problems, because if you didn't have an armed unit in the village, you couldn't cause problems to the convoys that were passing through.

A. That is true that Mr. Boro Paravac told a delegation not to view ²⁷⁵⁸² the Yugoslav army in the same way. That is, the Serbs and the Muslims did not view the Yugoslav army in the same way. That is true.

Q. Now, did you stop convoys, open fire at convoys? Why did he call you to warn you if you hadn't done any of those things?

A. I don't know who could have fired with the exception of the reserve police that were armed. No one else had weapons.

Q. Well -- very well. Those 30 men in your village who were armed, did they fire?

A. They didn't dare appear on the main road along which the Serbian army and paramilitary units were passing. These were enormous APCs, whole convoys of people, large convoys. On the contrary, they opened fire at shops, coffee bars, homes. So they frightened the civilian population. I must say that people no longer stayed in their houses because of these convoys passing by. They moved away from the main road as much as they could.

Q. Very well. Tell me, please, do you know of the barricade that you - and when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I mean your forces - erected in the villages of Jokovac and Seslije, cutting off road traffic towards Derventa and Modrica? Is that right or not?

A. I wasn't there, but I would add that Croatian inhabitants live in that area. But Boro Paravac cautioned us regarding our behaviour towards the Serb army, because when they were waging war in Brod and around Brod and in the area of Modrica, all the wounded and all the materiel and the troops had to move towards Doboj and had to secure the road to the hospital, because where you mentioned the barricades I don't know because ²⁷⁵⁸³ I wasn't there, but probably they couldn't move in that direction because it's the same road leading to Doboj like the one going along the left bank of the Bosna River.

Q. You mentioned Brod. Do you know that in the area of Brod, the village of Sijekovac, a massacre was committed against the Serbs long before these conflicts that you are testifying about started? This is close to you; you must have known about it.

A. It is some 50-odd kilometres away from me, you see. And I want to say in that connection that I heard about it after the war, on television when there were certain programmes broadcast, that this event had happened in Sijekovac.

Q. What did you hear?

A. On the basis of the stories of the parents of those young men killed.

Q. And who was killed there?

A. I don't know who was killed.

Q. Were the victims Serbs or someone else?

A. If the Serbs are saying that they lost their children, then they couldn't have been anything but Serbs.

Q. Very well. And when was this?

A. Well, I couldn't tell you that, really. I don't know.

Q. And after that, did tension increase in the broader area including Doboj, after this massacre in a place that you say is 50 kilometres away from yours? That's not so far.

A. It's not too far, but I must repeat, this did not interest me at ²⁷⁵⁸⁴ all.

Q. That's your affair that it didn't interest you. And do you know that before these events, you said that on the 9th of May there were conflicts in Doboj and that you were attacked on the 10th, that as early as the 4th of April, a month prior to this, the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, without Serb representatives, took a decision to mobilise the TO, the police, the Civil Defence, even though Bosnia and Herzegovina was still a part of Yugoslavia?

A. I do know that it was a part of Yugoslavia, but I don't know that a decision was taken to form such units.

Q. And is it true that in 1992, on the 12th of April -- surely you remember that. You were free then and you were still in your village. So this is six days after the recognition of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina Alija Izetbegovic ordered an all-out attack on the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. I'm not aware of that.

Q. Since you are talking about the events of the 9th and 10th of May, according to my information, and I would like to ask you kindly just to say whether that is correct or not. On the 3rd of May, that is six days prior to the 9th, units of the army and police removed barricades and other obstacles put up in Doboj and organised by the SDA and HDZ leaderships, and these obstacles, due to which Serb parts of the town were isolated and facilities of significance, for instance, the road leading to the hospital and other important institutions in town.

A. At that time, I was not in Doboj, and I also don't know which ²⁷⁵⁸⁵ barricades. I don't know when the town was attacked militarily on the 3rd of May, 1992. It was a Sunday, and the civilians that were left fled in great haste. I don't know what barricades and where those barricades were.

Q. Well, on the 3rd of May, the army and the police removed the barricades erected by Muslim forces.

A. Your Honours, I have to repeat. There were no barricades there. But I repeat, Serb forces on that day, a Sunday, the 3rd of May, 1992, attacked the town of Doboj with great force from all sides so that all the non-Serb population fled to save their lives. They fled their homes.

Q. That is probably taken out of some context. Do you know, please tell me, that on the 6th of May, regular units of Croatia attacked and killed Serb inhabitants in the village of Vitusica?

A. I'm not going to claim that they didn't, but I don't know anything about that, because by then, I was already surrounded, and I could have no contact with anyone outside my village.

Q. So you know nothing about that. Yet all those are events that took place before this 9th and 10th of May that you're talking about.

A. Well, I don't know about them.

Q. On the 6th of May, I'm sure you know that that is St. George's Day, an Orthodox holiday, and the patron saint of many Serbs.

A. Perhaps. It is not my family feast day, so I don't know.

Q. But it was precisely on the 6th of day -- on the 6th of May for St. George's Day that the Croatian forces killed the Serb population in this village, that is to say three days prior to the events that you ²⁷⁵⁸⁶ describe.

A. Your Honours, I am saying that that is possible. However, I do not know about it. I know nothing about it.

Q. Well, do you know that apart from this attack and the killing of the people and the looting and setting fire to the houses, in addition to Vitusica, the village of Brezik in the Doboj municipality and Majevac, a neighbouring village in the Doboj municipality, suffered that fate? Do you know about that?

A. The villages Mr. Milosevic has mentioned to me are familiar but during the war because they took us there on some work assignments. We had to do some farming there.

Q. All right. If you were there, then I'm sure you have heard about the other man called Milos Milenko Savetic, the Savetic family, and all their houses were set on fire precisely on the 6th of May, just three days prior to the events you're describing, and this was done by the formations that stormed the Doboj municipality and set fire to the houses and killed the people in Ritesice, Brezik, Majevac and all these places. Do you know anything about that?

A. I have to say I don't know about that, and you're talking about it now; I have not mentioned it.

Q. Do you know of a single name of somebody who was killed, of the people who were killed there? I am asking you. I'm not saying you said it, I'm just asking you whether you know any of the people who were killed on that attack on the 6th of May, any of their names.

A. Well, roughly, I know that the surrounding parts, that there were ²⁷⁵⁸⁷ -- that there was general disagreement in the environs but that somebody killed someone and I know their names and surnames, I really don't.

Q. Well, do you remember of another event in which a man named Mirko Dejanovic from Majevac went to Ritesice to take over the body of a neighbour who had been killed, by the name of Popovic, in order to bury his body? But he was also killed in a very brutal manner; his head was cut off with a pickax. So this was an event which everybody knew about who lived in those parts.

A. Well, please believe me when I say that I really don't know about that event. I really don't.

Q. And Jela Titura, does that name ring a bell, from Vitusica?

A. No. Well, it's quite a long way off from where I was. I just passed through those parts on rare occasions, so I really don't know the people who lived there, I really don't.

Q. All right. Well, let's move to some more specific points in your statement. From paragraphs 15 and 16, in which you stated that the regular military formations, the reserve and paramilitary units in Doboj were stationed in the barracks in the village of Miljkovac. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you say they slept there, ate there, underwent training there, and went into battle from there. That's what you say in paragraph or point 12.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. But please explain this to me: If your village was cut off from ²⁷⁵⁸⁸ Doboj, how then were you able to see all this? How were you able to see the paramilitary units, the White Eagles, the Martic's men, the Tigers, the Knindzas, and all the others that you mention? How were you able to see them coming in? And yet when I ask about the massacres of the Serb population in the Serb villages, you say you were under siege and knew nothing. How were you able to see this if you were under a blockade?

A. Please allow me to explain. With respect to these assertions and what I stated, I stand by. What I want to say is that during that time, for about five months or 150 days, every day continuously, nonstop, I spent time at the 4th of July barracks. I worked there. I helped move certain officers, I did some gardening, looked after the flowers and the shrubs and painted some fences there where the army underwent training. So I was there the whole time. So everything I wrote down in my statement is what I saw. They're all things that I saw.

Q. All right, Mr. 1115. You've just explained that you tended the flowers and painted the fences and things of that kind. A moment ago, you explained to us that you collected up bodies, teeth that had been bashed out. So tell us what you did in fact do. You have to choose. Was -- did that come under the tending of the garden, the shrubs and flowers?

A. I did that and so did the other detainees, all those incarcerated with me. We dug graves for the dead. We also tended to the flowers and flowerbeds and even worked on private Serb property. We would dig around the corn fields and collect up the hay and cut up logs for winter.

Q. Well, you've enumerated a great deal of tasks that you had; tending to the flowers and the maize and making haystacks, you did ²⁷⁵⁸⁹ farming, you buried bodies. But this doesn't seem to -- the first lot of tasks doesn't seem to go with the next lot of tasks, the gathering and burying of bodies, of corpses. Where did you do that?

A. When I went to the barracks, other people went with me. We all went round these places, all the detainees. Sometimes I would go, sometimes we would all go. It depended.

Q. All right, Mr. 1115. You're the first man who says he saw in Bosnia-Herzegovina some kind of Montenegrin Red Berets.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. They trained some 300 of them. Do you know that this unit, a Montenegrin Red Beret unit never existed?

A. It was the Serb Montenegrin berets.

Q. All right, Mr. 1115. You're the first man who has talked to us about Montenegrin Red Berets.

You also say that your reserve police unit -- although you didn't consider it to be a paramilitary formation, did you, Mr. 1115?

A. No, we did not. We had no intention of establishing that kind of unit, and we didn't treat it, therefore, as a paramilitary unit either.

Q. Yes, but you say that on the 10th of May, there was an attack on your village and this was led by a man called Stankovic from the Yugoslav People's Army, the attack on your village.

A. Yes, Milovan Stankovic personally, a major of the Yugoslav People's Army, in fact.

Q. And how were you able to come by that conclusion? Did you learn about that later on, information to that effect once -- or were you able ²⁷⁵⁹⁰ to establish who attacked you when the attack was launched and who was in command and all the rest of it?

A. That same evening when we were evacuated from the village, I saw him standing in front of the tank at the entrance to the village. And one year later, when I happened to return from Banja Luka, we went to cut some logs at Mount Ozren, and he was there. And then he told me personally that he was one of the men who was the main responsible person in command of the forces that launched the attack on my village.

Q. All right. And do you know that on the 11th of May, for instance, the last JNA units pulled out of the Bosanski Brod municipality, and the withdrawal started long before that. So there couldn't have been a JNA unit there on the 10th of May in your village.

And then you also say at 1700 hours, which means towards evening --

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. Wait a moment. You're trying to put two points to the witness.

The allegation, Witness B-1115, the suggestion is the JNA couldn't have been there because they were supposed to have withdrawn earlier or that sort of thing. Were the JNA present in the village that day during the attack?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Then explain this to me. Explain what you wrote in paragraph 18, I think it is -- or, rather, the third paragraph on page 4 in which you say: "The attack on my village began on the 10th of May, ²⁷⁵⁹¹ 1992, and was carried out by the Serbs from the area of Ozren."

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. I read out the whole sentence to you. That means that the attack on your village on the 10th of May, 1992, according to your claims, and you are testifying on the basis your statement, not live testimony, was carried out by the Serbs from the Ozren area. And then you go on to say: "Stankovic was their commander."

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. So on what grounds -- you say that they wore camouflage JNA uniforms, that they were well-armed. All right. But you said that they were Serbs from the Ozren area, not members of the JNA. You say that in the sentence before.

A. According to what I know, Stankovic was an active-duty officer of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Well, if he was from the Ozren area, this man Stankovic, then he was the commander of the army of Republika Srpska in the Ozren area and not a JNA officer.

A. That's what he could have been. That's possible. That's what I can assume he was.

Q. So not even in your statement do you say that you were actually attacked by the JNA. You just say that the attack was carried out by Serbs from the area of Ozren, and Ozren is a mountain near Doboj; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that means that the Serbs launched that attack from that ²⁷⁵⁹² mountain on your village, and now you claim that that attack was launched by the JNA.

A. I have to say, Your Honours, if I may that on the 11th of May, 1992, when I arrived at the Vuk Karadzic Primary School by the station, I spent the night there with the other inhabitants from my own native place, and the next day they lined us up in the training grounds, and that's when I saw that there was still some members of the JNA there, because my son used to study. He was a -- he studied at the military academy in the Belgrade, and he was standing right next to 1993 there and he said, "Father, that man over there that came out of that military unit, his name is Ozegovic [phoen], and he was a professor at the academy. He taught defence."

Q. All right. As you've been talking about an attack launched by Serbs from the Ozren area, do you still stand by the assertion and claim that that attack was an attack against your village at all and that it was carried out by the JNA? Do you stand by that?

A. In combined with the JNA. In combined formation with the JNA.

Q. I see. Because some professor from the academy who was probably from the area was present?

A. Yes. He was a professor, but he was also an officer of the JNA, a lieutenant colonel, in fact, by rank.

Q. That was what he had been before, but is he originally from the area?

A. No. I'd never seen or heard of him before that.

Q. I see. Never seen or heard of him before that. Right. Now, do ²⁷⁵⁹³ you know that it was precisely whole Serb villages in that area that were left empty? There were no more inhabitants because they had taken refuge in the face of the attacks I described a moment ago?

A. Well, I don't know how to explain that, but those villages, they weren't evacuated, the population anywhere. On the 9th of May, in fact, one day prior to the attack on my native village, we wanted to leave the village, all of us to leave the village. However, the neighbouring village which was Serb populated did not allow us to leave. They returned us all back to my native village so that they could attack us the next day.

Q. What do you mean the Serb village didn't allow you to leave? You mean somebody from some of the units of the army of Republika Srpska blocked the exit and didn't allow you to pass; is that it?

A. Yes, precisely so.

Q. Well, do you know that the problem of refugees was vast? Their accommodation and food for them in Doboj where people had taken refuge from the empty villages in the face of the slaughter that was carried out against them and that this was an enormous problem for the leadership, both for the civilian leadership and the military leadership, the vast number of refugees from Doboj?

A. Perhaps that is so, but I was incarcerated myself at the time, so I wasn't able to see or control the situation.

Q. Do you know that because of the withdrawal of the JNA, there was the danger of Doboj finding itself in an encirclement and under siege from the Muslim and Croatian forces, that it be completely blocked? ²⁷⁵⁹⁴

A. No, I don't know about that. I don't know why it would have been under siege. What weapons would they have used to form an encirclement?

Q. Well, you mentioned yourself a moment ago that you had heard a long time before the events took place that the events happened in Brod, Sijekovac, where a regular brigade, in fact, killed the Serb population there, and that was the first organised storming by organised formations on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and crimes committed against the Serbs en masse.

A. Perhaps that is so, but I don't want to enter into that because I don't know about it. What I'm talking about is about my native village and the defence of that.

Q. All right. Do you know that there was a defence line set up for Doboj along the River Bosna for the defence? Do you know about that? In May that that was set up?

A. No, I don't know about that.

Q. Do you know that it was thought that a breakthrough would be a catastrophe for the local population and the Serb refugees and that with great effort the road via Grapska was deblocked, Predrovo, Modrica and Vucak, in fact, that road? All that had been blocked previously?

A. I really don't know anything about that. I can't say.

Q. Well, they deblocked that axis, that road, precisely through your village.

A. Your Honours, I have to say that my village, about a month before the aggression against it, had already been surrounded. We had no communications. We were cut off. We knew nothing that was happening in ²⁷⁵⁹⁵ Doboj and its environments, in fact.

Q. All right. Now, is it true that this wasn't an attack, it was the deblocking in order to prevent a complete blockade, because that was the communication road from Doboj via Grapska, Predrovo and Modrica?

JUDGE MAY: He's already answered that. He doesn't know. Now, you've got about six minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's difficult for me to get through everything in six minutes, Mr. May. I do realise that it seems to you that the only priority is time, the time factor, but I do have to ask certain questions. Now, you can, of course, take away that right. It's your right to do so.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Anyway, do you remember that during those days the Muslim units launched an attack on Vijenac, which is one of the most important elevations on Mount Ozren, of greatest significance to the defence of the Serb forces? Otherwise it is a Serb populated area. Isn't that right, Mr. 1115?

JUDGE MAY: You complain about -- you complain about not having sufficient time. All you do in these cross-examinations is not to challenge the evidence of the witnesses but to put a contrary complaint about what you allege the Muslims did to the Serbs. Now, that goes on in every cross-examination. We don't know, because you haven't challenged so far, whether you accept or not that 34 civilians were killed in the attack. That's what you should be concentrating on, dealing with what the witness said, not a series of contrary allegations which, as you know, is ²⁷⁵⁹⁶ not a defence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An opposite claim denies the claim which is opposite to it, or maybe I don't understand things correctly. I do not have information that there was attack on Grapska. What I do have information is that there was a deblockade of this route towards Predrovo and Vucak because Doboj was threatened by a total blockade, and I'm asking the witness about the attack on Vijenac, which was a very important feature for the defence of Serb positions.

JUDGE MAY: Can you help us about that? It's an alleged there was an attack on Vijenac. An attack by Muslim forces on the Serbs. Was there such an attack, as far as you know, or not, or can't you help?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Hazim Dzinic, for instance, a Muslim, in a newspaper Nasi Dani, in Zenica, on the 23rd of September, 1992, on page 7, described the battles waged at the end of April 1992 in the ensettlement of Mahala above Doboj when, as he says, for two days and two nights the Muslims inflicted heavy losses on the Serb side. Does this mean anything to you? Because that is what he described in these words. Are you familiar with this? This is the end of April 1992. The settlement is Mahala, above Doboj. For two nights and two days the Muslims inflicted heavy losses on the Serb side.

A. The gentleman you mention, who is a doctor of law, Hazim Dzinic, is somebody I know very well. He passed away recently. And what you are mentioning is something I really have no idea about.

Q. Well, if he passed away recently, that doesn't mean that in ²⁷⁵⁹⁷ September 1992, in the paper I have mentioned and the page I have given you, he didn't say what I said. So you don't know anything about it, though you're from the area?

A. I'm not familiar with it.

Q. And do you remember the name of Zevudin Zonic [phoen], Mensur Brkic, and Kresimir Zubak? This is the TO command which was in control of these operations at the time.

A. Among the three, I only know Kresimir Zubak, who worked in the prosecutor's office in Doboj before the war.

Q. And do you remember that they planned the evacuation of the population towards Tesanj? And this was done at the beginning of May, that is the 8th of May, when certain separation lines were formed.

A. If we're talking about the beginning of May, the only conclusion one can draw is that the remaining inhabitants - the sick, the elderly - could only be evacuated from Doboj.

Q. Very well. Your own newspaper, Oslobodjenje, on the 11th of May, 1992, which means that it was written on the 10th of May and not later if the date of publication is the 11th of May, and it says on page 3: The Serbs have to be expelled from Doboj, and I quote: "Assessments from the battlefield indicate that by the end of the month, in view of the advances made by defence units, the whole area between Bosanski Brod and Doboj will be cleansed of the Serbs."

This was stated in your newspaper on the 11th of May, and as newspaper is printed the day before it comes out, that the whole area from Doboj to Brod, including Doboj and Brod, had to be cleansed of the Serbs. ²⁷⁵⁹⁸

A. If you're referring to the 11th of May, on the 11th of May, 1992, I was fighting for my own survival and that of my family who were with me. There were minor children with me.

Q. I'm talking about large-scale battles, and that your side envisaged that you would win all those battles and capture Doboj and Brod and the whole area.

A. I understand what you're saying.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm asking --

JUDGE MAY: No. You have been asking this witness for a great deal of time about matters which he has not been able to answer. Now, it is pointless to waste the time of the Tribunal in this way. You will have the opportunity, as you know, to put forward your own case about events in this municipality, but there is no point going on asking the witness about things and putting reports to him when he says he doesn't know, and his answer to that question was he did not know. He was fighting for his own survival at the time. Now, that's his answer.

Now, we have to get on. Now, you've got one more question if you wish.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Mr. May, but I would ask you to give me a little more time for me to put several more questions, please.

JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: No. You can ask one more question. You know the ²⁷⁵⁹⁹ rules with these witnesses. You've got one hour, so you must use it to the best advantage.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1115, you say that the Serbs organised detention places or prisons for the Muslim and Croat inhabitants.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that those prisons had existed before, such as places of temporary detention? Those were no special prisons for Muslims and Croats but for everyone who is in violation of the law, that kill people, set up ambushes and block traffic. They are not prisons for Muslims and Croats but for all who violate the law.

A. In my statement, the places indicated where the camps were, one of them is a prison that before the war was a prison for the Doboj region. However, under normal conditions, as I had access to those prisons, I am familiar with the premises, there were beds there, and there was sufficient space for moving around. However, during the war, the beds were taken out, some sponge mattresses were thrown in, and people were crowded so that up to three men had to use a single metre-wide sponge bed. Only Croats and Bosniaks. Not a single Serb was in the prison at the time.

Q. And how many men were in the prison at the time?

A. I can say that at least 5.000 people passed through that prison.

Q. And for each of those 5.000 men, you can claim that not a single one was a Serb? ²⁷⁶⁰⁰

JUDGE MAY: This is the last question. Yes, could you deal with that? Could you give your answer, please? Of the 5.000 men you're asked, can you claim that not a single one was a Serb?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stayed in room 65341, in those premises. Maybe there are another two or three that I didn't mention. And there wasn't a single Serb in those rooms. They were only Bosniaks and Croats.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Kay. Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. In your statement, Witness, you refer to JNA barracks in Doboj. I'm looking at paragraph 12 and paragraph 13.

Were those barracks existing places of the JNA? Had they been bases of the JNA for many years previously?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Likewise, the JNA barracks in Sevarlije?

A. Yes.

Q. An existing barracks before the conflict?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I just ask you to have admitted into evidence the document I received from the side opposite? I cannot read out the name of the witness as he's a protected witness, but there is his name here, his father's name, and this is a document showing that he was charged under Article 124 of the Penal Code for armed insurrection as stated here. In translation I can't find it in the ²⁷⁶⁰¹ original written by hand, yes it says, "oruzana pubuna," or armed insurrection. Article 124 of the Penal Code. So could it be exhibited as I received it from the opposite side? So I assume they will not object.

JUDGE MAY: Have we got a copy of this?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 02127552 -- no. 02127551.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where his name is mentioned. And the translation doesn't have an ERN number.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have a copy if we have one.

MS. BIBLES: Our copies are upstairs, Your Honour. I have one with me that I could --

JUDGE MAY: If we could just have a look at that one. Thank you. All is well. We've got one from the --

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. B-1115, this is the -- you've heard what the accused has read out, and the suggestion that you were charged with armed insurrection. Do you know anything about that at all?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

JUDGE MAY: Could you please just briefly deal with it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This reserve force, all of those who had long barrels, each and every one of them were charged with armed insurrection, and we went to court several times in Banja Luka and Doboj.

JUDGE MAY: And what happened?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simply we were interrogated by the court, and it was difficult. The worst part was getting there. We would ²⁷⁶⁰² come across soldiers. They would beat us. But nothing really, apart from that dead member who according to the authorities of Republika Srpska or, rather, the military authorities, we were allegedly some sort of organisers of an armed insurrection.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Was there a trial, B-1115?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, just interrogation.

JUDGE MAY: We will admit this document with the next D number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 194, Your Honour, under seal.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Bibles, if you've got any questions.

MS. BIBLES: I have no redirect, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. Witness B-1115, that does conclude your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, we're going to deal with this. We've just been given a series of documents which I think are the admissions, what have been admitted under Rule 92 bis. Perhaps you can help us with it. We'll deal with it now.

MS. PACK: Those are the bundle of statements and -- sorry, transcripts that were admitted without cross-examination on the Brcko 92 bis (D) application. So that is what you have before you.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will -- you and the registry must go through these and give them the rightful numbers. Have you got your bundle there, Ms. Pack? ²⁷⁶⁰³

MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: If you and the registry, between you, will give the numbers to them now.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the 92 bis package for B-1407 will be 556. The 92 bis package for 1408 --

MS. PACK: I hate to interrupt the registrar. The first tab in that Exhibit number 556 should be under seal, just to make that clear.

THE REGISTRAR: Witness B-1408 92 bis package will be 557. That's a repeat.

MS. PACK: And also could the first tab of that be under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: Witness B-1411 will be 558.

MS. PACK: Could tabs 1 and 2 of that exhibit number be under seal, please.

THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The exhibits for Dr. Albert Charles Hunt will be 559. 92 bis package for B-1450 will be 560.

MS. PACK: Can tabs 1 and 2, both tabs, be under seal, please.

JUDGE KWON: What do we have under number 556?

THE REGISTRAR: 556, Your Honour, is Witness Exhibit B-1407 [sic]. And, Your Honour, for Exhibit 558 -- the transcript --

JUDGE KWON: Have we received one for 1407?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. And you're going to call the next witness; is that right?

MS. PACK: Your Honour, the next witness is B-1445.

JUDGE MAY: After the adjournment.

--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m. ²⁷⁶⁰⁴

--- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1445

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Pack.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, could the 92 bis package be passed to the witness.

Examined by Ms. Pack:

Q. Witness B-1445, can you look at the document at the front of that package and confirm, please, that you see your name upon that document.

A. Yes. This one here, yes.

Q. Witness, did you sign a declaration on the 29th of April, 2003, certifying that earlier statements that you made to the Office of the Prosecutor were true?

A. Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, if the 92 bis package could be admitted as this witness's first exhibit under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Exhibit number will be 561 under seal.

MS. PACK: I'm grateful. Could the witness be handed, please, the bundle of documents. ²⁷⁶⁰⁵

Q. Witness, look at tab 1, please, in front of you. Is that the front sheet of an additional statement signed by you on the 13th of October of this year in The Hague?

A. Yes.

Q. Witness, do you comment in that statement upon documents shown to you in The Hague and upon two intercepts that were played to you whilst you were in The Hague?

A. Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I would ask that that additional statement obtained whilst the witness was in The Hague and disclosed to the accused on the 13th of October, two nights ago, along with the associated exhibits referred to in that statement contained in your binder at tabs 2 and following be admit under Rule 89(F).

JUDGE MAY: Let's, just -- the statement. So this is the first time, of course, we've seen it. The statement is one of 11 paragraphs.

MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: It's producing, is it, exhibits which haven't been referred to before; is that right?

MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour, but disclosed under -- pursuant to 65 ter but disclosed again to the accused on the 13th of October, i.e., two afternoons ago.

JUDGE MAY: It may be that the right way to deal with this - I speak for myself - since this is new material, is for the exhibit to be admitted but for the witness to go through these documents so we know what there are, briefly, and give his evidence live about it. ²⁷⁶⁰⁶ Yes, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Yes, these are new documents being introduced at a very late stage which, although they may have been in the 65 ter material, bore no relation, of course, to the witness statement of this particular witness within that material and would have just been documents existing within many several tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. Time should be given to the accused to be able to digest this material and understand exactly what is happening here as it's plainly a new approach by the Prosecutor in relation to this evidence.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We'll admit the statement subject to this, that the witness must go through these exhibits, dealing with them insofar as they are of significance and pointing out the matters relied on so the Prosecution could know -- so the Court can know what it is the Prosecution seek to rely on these witnesses in these statements. Meanwhile, the accused will begin his cross-examination today, but he won't have to finish it today, and he will have the opportunity overnight of considering any matters and preparing for cross-examination on the documents.

I should say that any intercepts which are appearing in the documents can only be admitted marked for identification.

MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Pack. Perhaps we could have a new number for the next package, as it were, the statement and the attached exhibits. ²⁷⁶⁰⁷

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be 562.

MS. PACK: Your Honours, I'll read a short summary of the earlier statement testimony.

This witness, a Muslim and of Bosniak ethnicity, was born and lived in Doboj until the war broke out.

He gives evidence about the importance of Doboj as a strategic town, the number of Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats in the municipality, and life in the town before the war broke out. He gives evidence about the locations and number of JNA army barracks in and around Doboj town. The witness speaks to the results of the 1990 elections in Doboj and the leadership in Doboj following those elections. He describes the members of the Council for National Defence for the municipality. He gives evidence about the SDS party in Doboj and the presence of Radovan Karadzic, Velibor Ostojic and Nikola Koljevic in Doboj at a pre-election rally in August or September 1990.

The witness saw Karadzic on a further occasion in Doboj when he came to participate in a meeting the SDS were holding in secret. In early 1992, the SDS in Bosnia and Herzegovina formed their own parliament. From that time, the SDS in Doboj no longer cooperated in the Municipal Assembly. Incidents began to take place in Doboj against Bosniaks. Two or three months before the war, the SDS established a Crisis Staff in Doboj. Even in the period after the 1990 elections, the SDS had paramilitary units which practised on Mount Ozren. The witness describes the transformation of the JNA to a one-nationality army when the war started in Croatia in 1991 and the ²⁷⁶⁰⁸ distribution of weapons to Serb civilians.

In January or February 1992, units of Arkan's paramilitary and Seselj's White Eagles arrived in Doboj. About 20 days before the war started, reserve army units established checkpoints manned by local Serb soldiers on all roads leading into and out of town. The Serbs took control of Doboj on the 3rd of May, 1992. The Bosniaks were not prepared for military action and did not have any weapons to defend themselves.

The witness moved out of Doboj with others on the 3rd of May, 1992. He moved to Tesanj and remained there until the Dayton Agreement was sign. He has since 1996 returned to Doboj several times. The witness was elected as a member of the Assembly of Republika Srpska on the 10th of August, 2000.

Does the witness have in front of him a 92 bis package?

Q. Witness, could you turn, please, in the 92 bis package or could the witness be shown his first statement.

Witness, turn, please, to paragraph 18 of your first statement to the OTP. That's dated the 26th of January, 1999. That's paragraph 18 of the B/C/S version.

Witness, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the matters you speak to in that paragraph. You talk about the presence of Arkan's paramilitaries and Seselj's White Eagles in Doboj. Did you personally see Arkan's men in Doboj?

A. I didn't see them personally, no.

Q. Did you personally watch the arrival of Arkan's and Seselj's men ²⁷⁶⁰⁹ in town?

A. Not at that moment, no.

Q. Did you see Seselj's paramilitaries in town at a later time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Tell us, please, where you saw them.

A. I saw them in front of the Serb Orthodox Church, at the entrance to the courtyard.

Q. Were you told by others how many there were in town and, if so, please tell us how many.

A. According to the Muslim population with respect to the Serb residents who have their flats, they called me several times and said that in the presence of a large number of soldiers or, rather, Seselj's radicals, and I passed by that part of town only once because it was very dangerous, and I saw at the door or, rather, at the entrance to the courtyard five or six soldiers, Seselj's.

Q. Please turn now to paragraph 22 of the statement. Look at paragraphs 22 and 23. Did you yourself witness the takeover of Doboj?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you leave Doboj on the 3rd of May, 1992?

A. Yes, in the afternoon.

Q. Are the matters stated in paragraphs 22 and 23 matters about which you learned from people who later fled Doboj?

A. In paragraph 23, yes, I saw Seselj's paramilitary units completely in a place called Ankare, which is a weekend settlement where some 15 days prior to that they had expelled all the owners of the weekend holiday ²⁷⁶¹⁰ homes and to all intents and purposes occupied that area, and they were there up until the 3rd of May or, rather, they held it from the 3rd of May until the beginning of the aggression, that whole line and part of Doboj.

Q. Otherwise the matters in those two paragraphs are matters about which you learned from others?

A. I saw with my very own eyes while I was passing by, because the evacuation route from Doboj of the population which we suggested, from the centre of town, that it should pass through Putnikovo hill and a Muslim settlement towards Tesanj, because all the other roads were completely blocked with the barricades that they had set up from all sides. They had surrounded Doboj from all sides, so you couldn't enter or exit Doboj at all except using that road. And we called it the road of evacuation towards the free territories up there, Tesanj.

MS. PACK: Could the witness please be shown his additional witness statement. That's Exhibit 562, tab 1. And if the witness could be shown the next exhibit, tab 2.

Q. Witness, these are documents that were shown to you in The Hague, dated 13 October 1991. Can you tell us, please, what if anything you now about these decisions being passed in Serbian local communities at the time they were being passed.

A. Yes, I did know about these decisions.

Q. Just summarise for us, please, what they are.

A. These are decisions by Serb local communities of the Doboj municipality in which they proclaim the territory of the local community, that is to say that settlement, that the territory in actual fact will ²⁷⁶¹¹ recognise only the laws of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and some of the laws which are not in contravention to those laws of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. And please turn to the first one of those decisions. It should be the decision relating -- of the local community of Majevac.

A. Majevac, yes.

Q. Tell us, please, which is the important article out of the articles we see on that first page.

A. The most important article is Article number 2.

Q. Can you explain why?

A. Well, what I said a moment ago. This is what it says in Article 2: "In the territory of this local community, positive federal laws and regulations will be implemented, as well as those regulations of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which are not contrary to federal relations." And of course Article 1 in fact gives an overall explanation with respect to territory, which means the local community of Majevac in this instance.

Q. And by the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, are they referring to the soon-to-be newly declared Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or not?

A. Not. That's the old name, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina within the composition of the federal Yugoslavia.

Q. The decisions which follow in the following pages, are they decisions of other local communities in the Doboj municipality relating to the same matters? ²⁷⁶¹²

A. In actual fact, it's all the same decision. The text is the same, the entire text, for each of the local communities, just the different community.

MS. PACK: Can the witness please be shown tab 3.

Q. Witness, these documents before you, again, decisions concerning Serbian local communities in Doboj, dated 13 October 1991.

A. Yes.

Q. Please tell us briefly what those decisions relate to.

A. In these decisions, it is decided that the laws will be respected of the federal -- of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, just laws which are not in contravention to that. But these are being proclaimed on that particular territory and that particular local community.

MS. PACK: Can the witness be shown tab 4, please.

Q. Witness, this document is dated the 16th of October, 1991. Please tell us briefly what this is about.

A. Here the Serbian Democratic Party or, rather, the Municipal Board of the SDS of Doboj informs the Main Board of the SDS of Sarajevo that what we read before was implemented, the decisions, and we inform you that the Serb people of Doboj municipality reached the decision to proclaim the territories where they live an inseparable part of the federal state of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which we herewith forward you. And then congratulations to Radovan Karadzic in that regard.

Q. Did you know the -- Milan Ninkovic?

A. Yes. ²⁷⁶¹³

Q. Is the signature at the bottom of the document in the B/C/S version that you have, is that his signature?

A. I can't say it's his because it says "for," for him. Now, the signature is similar, but I don't believe that this is his signature, actually.

Q. Thank you. Could you turn, please, to tab 5.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell us, please -- you can see it's self-evident on the face of that document what it is that that document is announcing.

A. Here probably this is addressed because the signature is the president of the regional SDS board, which means for the nine municipalities of the Doboj municipality. This was probably sent to all the municipal boards, this announcement, saying that on such-and-such a day, a meeting would be held of all the municipal boards of Bosanska Krajina, the SDS Bosanska Krajina, and it also says here that Dr. Radovan Karadzic will be present at the meeting.

Q. Did there come a time when you became aware of that meeting?

A. I became aware that the meeting would take place, I think it was February 1992. I don't remember the exact date. But actually, I learnt about that several days prior to the meeting, in a closed meeting of the municipal boards of the SDS of Bosanska Krajina.

Q. Could you please turn to tab 6.

A. Yes.

Q. Witness, this is an article from Derventski List newspaper, dated 13th of February, 1992. Were you shown this article and have you read it ²⁷⁶¹⁴ through in the premises -- in these premises?

A. I have read this article here, but I had this kind of article after a meeting that they held, because in that particular article, we have a description of the decisions reached at the meeting, who took the floor, who was criticised, and so on and so forth.

Q. Witness, to what meeting are you referring when you say that the article is referring to a meeting?

A. That meeting in February, the beginning of February. But I don't know the exact date. However, as this paper, the Derventski List is dated the 13th of February, that would make it five or six days prior to that.

Q. Witness, please look at the first paragraph of that article. Does that first paragraph talk about the meeting to which you've been referring?

A. Yes.

Q. The paragraph talks about a report by Milovan Bjelosevic. Is that one who was known to you?

A. It's not Milovan Bjelosevic. It's Andrija Bjelosevic who was chief of the CSB of Doboj, because most probably the journalist here made a mistake and put Slobodan. However, in line three, it does say later on Andrija Milosevic -- Bjelosevic.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

MS. PACK:

Q. In the 10th paragraph of the article, the name is in fact correctly stated as Andrija Bjelosevic.

Witness, did you yourself know about the contents of that meeting ²⁷⁶¹⁵ at the time?

A. Only after the meeting, after this paper had appeared.

MS. PACK: Can the witness please be shown the next tab number, which is tab 7.

Q. Witness, can you take a look at that document and briefly describe what is being reported under the heading Doboj in that document?

A. The municipal headquarters intelligence centre informs the republican intelligence centre about a bomb explosion that took place in the Proleterska Brigada Street in front of the Alf cafe. These are regular reports that were sent out towards the republic intelligence centre.

Q. Is that an event about which you heard?

A. I was present the next day, because I came to the spot to see what had happened. A bomb was thrown, had been thrown there. There were no casualties, but there was some material damage in the cafe.

MS. PACK: Can the witness be shown tab 9, please. We'll come back to tab 8.

Q. Witness, you've had an opportunity to read this document before today at the premises of the OTP. Can you tell us briefly what it is that the document is describing?

A. Actually, this is a document from the Ministry of Justice, the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which they inform the regions of Banja Luka, Sarajevo, (Sokolac, Trebinje Bijeljina and Doboj), about the organisation of jurisdiction and the judiciary on its territory.

Q. Is it something that you knew about at the time, these activities? ²⁷⁶¹⁶

A. I learnt about them later.

Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could turn, please, to the next document in the bundle. It's tab 10.

A. Yes.

Q. Witness, did you listen to prior to seeing this document an intercepted conversation at the premises in The Hague?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you recognise the voices of the speakers?

A. Straight away. I recognise both right away.

Q. Tell us who the speakers were, please.

A. Here we have Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, a member of the Presidency of the day, of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and she called up Andrije Bjelosevic, the chief of the CSB of Doboj, and she asked him to intervene with respect to a vehicle which in the Gracanica municipality the traffic police had been stopped and it was an ambulance which was full of medical sanitary corps material, which was on its way to the Croatian battlefront.

Q. Witness --

A. Probably around Okucani.

Q. Pause there, please. Can you tell us, please, how you were able to recognise the voices of Biljana Plavsic and Andrije Bjelosevic?

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Q. Witness, it's right, isn't it, that you cannot comment not knowing anything at the time about the matters as talked about in that intercepted conversation?

A. No. It was in another municipality.

Q. Next tab, please, tab 11. Witness, before seeing this transcript, did you listen to an intercepted -- a further intercepted conversation in these premises in The Hague, and did you identify the speakers during that conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. Please tell us who those speakers were.

A. Momcilo Krajisnik, president of the republican Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Radovan Karadzic, president of the SDS for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Tell us briefly why it is or how it is that you were able to identify those speakers.

A. I would hear both as a member of parliament attending Assembly meetings.

Q. Tell us, please, what if anything about the context of the conversation you're able to tell us.

A. The two of them are discussing and, actually, Krajisnik is asking Karadzic to convene an emergency meeting, and it probably refers to the meeting in Doboj with representatives of the SDS of Bosnian Krajina and leaders of the municipal boards that I referred to a moment ago.

Q. And just so -- for the benefit of the Chamber, if you could point ²⁷⁶¹⁸ out where in that transcript they're speaking about the meeting which you referred to a moment ago. Could you identify just how that relevant paragraph begins somewhere on the first page, I think a third of the way down.

A. Here, under K, he says that they're having a meeting in Doboj at 12.00 tomorrow. It's actually Nikola Koljevic who had informed Krajisnik, and he's passing it on to Karadzic, that they're having a meeting of the three regions, et cetera.

Q. How are you able to conclude that that is a reference to the meeting about which you've referred earlier in your evidence today?

A. It is the meeting that was held in Doboj. The only one held in Doboj with representatives of these three regions of the SDS party.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, if we could go into private session very briefly.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour. ²⁷⁶²¹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, before I begin my cross-examination may I just make an observation? In view of the significance of the witness's position, which I cannot mention in open session but you're aware of it, both in the Party of Democratic Action and in the state bodies and a whole series of questions that have been addressed during the examination which you see yourself how long it lasted, I hope that you assume that my position is that this witness is not at all suitable as a 92 bis witness, because I -- so therefore, I should certainly have more time for the cross-examination than you regularly envisage according to the programme I'm given and the time I am given -- I am given for 92 bis statements.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. What I have also in mind is the fact that additional evidence was allowed under Rule 89(F). We will take that matter into account when we decide on the length of time that you should have. However, it starts on the basis that the witness was a 92 bis witness and, therefore, one hour. He was rather over half an hour in examination-in-chief, so I would think I speak entirely for myself that an hour and a half, something of that order, would be the right sort of time for you, but we will discuss that.

Judge Kwon agrees. But any way, you'll get more than half an hour -- I mean more than one hour. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. Mr. 1445, since you are -- you have a pseudonym and a protected witness, I won't mention your name or functions in Doboj and within the Party of Democratic Action in view of those positions, can you ²⁷⁶²² meritoriously address all the events that occurred in Doboj during the time period you are testifying about?

A. Yes.

Q. About the aggression?

A. Yes. What aggression are you talking about?

Q. The aggression on Doboj. Very well. We'll come to that. Tell me, please, before the introduction of the multi-party system, as you put it, was life peaceful, inter-ethnic relations good? There was no tension or conflict; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that it was your party, the SDA, that was the first party formed on an ethnic basis in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. I think this question is irrelevant, because one party always has to be the first one to be formed.

Q. But yours was the first.

A. I don't know whether it was the first, because there were many parties, but probably among the three, if you have in mind the SDS, the HDZ, and the SDA, probably, yes. I don't know whether that is true.

Q. You were the first to form a party on an ethnic basis, and you yourself say that until ethnic parties were formed, relations were good.

A. The SDA was not a party formed on an ethnic basis. It was formed of all people who wished to join that party.

Q. So it is your opinion that the SDA is not a Muslim party?

A. The SDA had within its ranks even members of Serb ethnicity, and there are some even today. ²⁷⁶²³

Q. It would be interesting to see how many. You're one of the founders of the SDA, aren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And the prevalent opinion was that the SDA was to blame for the break-up of Yugoslavia.

A. That is your opinion.

Q. My question is: Was that the prevalent opinion in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. No.

Q. You say that at first you wanted Yugoslavia to be preserved.

A. Certainly.

Q. But is it true also that the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina guaranteed equality of all constituent peoples, the Serbs, Muslims, and Croats? Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was regular practice that no important -- important decision of any -- of vital significance for any ethnic group could not be adopted without a consensus of all three?

A. Yes, but within the framework of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Q. Is it true that the Muslim and Croat deputies in the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 15th of October, 1991, took a decision on the sovereignty of that republic without Serb members?

A. They didn't decide on sovereignty. They just informed the European Union, asking them for international recognition of Bosnia and ²⁷⁶²⁴ Herzegovina.

Q. But that is one and the same thing.

A. They couldn't make such a decision, because if they could, they certainly wouldn't have asked the European Union to recognise them.

Q. Very well. It's easy to distinguish what is what, but is it true that in view of the fact that the decision was made without Serb representatives that it was in violent -- in flagrant violation of the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. No.

Q. Are you saying that on the basis of the letter of the constitution or is it your opinion?

A. On the basis of the rules of procedure of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because the rules of procedure could not be in contravention of the constitution of the socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Are you disclaiming the fact that the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina were one of the constituent peoples without whose will no consensus could be reached regarding a constitutional matter of any kind?

A. Deputies in the republican Assemblies from the SDS were not the only representatives of the Serb people. There were also deputies in the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were Serbs and who belonged to other parties.

Q. As far as I know, that number of those was quite negligible. Isn't that right, Mr. 1445?

A. Just now I can't tell you how many there were, but in any event, ²⁷⁶²⁵ the SDP and reformist parties had quite a number of Serb representatives in the BH parliament.

Q. The formation of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, I assume you will agree with me, was primarily the goal of the Muslim leadership and particularly of the SDA leader Izetbegovic; is that right?

A. No. It was not only the goal of Bosniak representatives but also of Croats and all those who considered Bosnia and Herzegovina their own state.

Q. You remember Izetbegovic's statement that he would sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia?

A. Yes.

Q. That is not in dispute, I assume.

A. That was his statement but taken out of context, because in providing a lengthy explanation, he elaborated his view of Bosnia-Herzegovina within the context of all the republics of federal Yugoslavia, and then he said if Slovenia leaves the Federation, if it leaves Yugoslavia, then we could still stay on or, rather, Bosnia and Herzegovina could remain within Yugoslavia. However, if Croatia leaves too, then there was no chance for Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain within the framework of Yugoslavia.

Q. Croatia, as you know, announced that it would leave Yugoslavia too. That was no secret for Izetbegovic, that Croatia also proclaimed its decision to leave Yugoslavia. Did that mean that a sovereign Bosnia had to be formed?

A. Though Croatia had announced its departure, the activities of ²⁷⁶²⁶ Izetbegovic together with the president of Macedonia, Gligorov, were designed to form either a looser federation or some sort of confederation, and I think that in that context, I wouldn't like to enter into this part of the polemics.

Q. This is no polemics. You mentioned the Izetbegovic-Gligorov plan. As a politician, you remember that plan was reviewed at Stojcivac [phoen] at a meeting of representatives of six republics and that Serbia, that is myself who represented Serbia at that meeting, accepted the Izetbegovic/Gligorov plan?

A. No. You never accepted that plan.

Q. Look at the documents from that period and how can you say that?

A. I'm very familiar with those documents, and you never accepted the Izetbegovic/Gligorov agreement because otherwise that plan would have been adopted.

Q. Yes, but it was subsequently rejected by Croatia, and you can check that out.

Now, tell me, please. Could you please comment on the programme that was published in the newspaper Voks [phoen], an independent youth Bosniak newspaper, issue number 7, dated the 16th of October, 1990, page 72. I have a photocopy and an enlarged programme. It is a programme for the settlement of Bosniaks from Turkey.

JUDGE MAY: What has this got to do with the witness? Now, let's move on to something he can deal with.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness was engaged in the political events of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I asked him regarding the ²⁷⁶²⁷ position of his party and Mr. Izetbegovic, who had, without any doubt, the formation of an Islamic state under the domination of the Muslims, and in corroboration of that --

JUDGE MAY: If you're going to make those sort of allegations, the witness must be able to deal with it.

It's suggested that Mr. Izetbegovic and you, by -- or your party, by implication, were bent on the formation, intended the formation of an Islamic state under the domination of the Muslims. Now, that's what's being suggested. Is that right, as far as you know, or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. It is not right.

JUDGE MAY: What was the intention or plan?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Izetbegovic and the SDA ever since its foundation felt that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be a sovereign and independent state with three constituent peoples and the citizens living in it. Therefore, that was our platform ever since 1990, and it hasn't changed since, as can be seen from our cooperative attitude towards the international community.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, Mr. 1445. And is it true that in reaction to the decision that you took without the Serb deputies, that the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, at a plebiscite on the 9th and 10th of November, 1991, voted in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina remaining within a common state?

A. That plebiscite was organised under the wings of the SDS party. It was not organised within the institutions of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina. ²⁷⁶²⁸

Q. You're surely not trying to say that more than 90 per cent of the Serbs voting in that plebiscite, that all of them belong to a political party, that is, the SDS?

A. It is highly questionable how many people took part in the plebiscite, because there was one party organising the plebiscite, controlling it, and counting the votes. No one else had any access.

Q. So you're calling in question the option to remain within Yugoslavia. Are you saying that that was not the option of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were Serbs?

A. If they had wanted to do that transparently, they should have done it through the legal bodies of BH.

Q. And is it true that the Presidency of BH led by Alija Izetbegovic decided, on the 20th of December, to address a request to the European Community for international recognition?

A. Yes.

Q. That was after the Assembly decision, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And even that decision was taken even though representatives of the Serb people in the Presidency voted against?

A. I don't know that they voted like that.

Q. I see. You don't know. And was the principle of consensus applied in the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. It is quite certain that the constitution and law of Bosnia and Herzegovina were not violated, but I am really not familiar with the rules of procedure of the Presidency because I was never a member of the ²⁷⁶²⁹ Presidency.

Q. And members of the Presidency representing the Serbs in those days were Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, weren't they?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they vote against?

A. I don't know.

Q. And is it true that the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 25th of January, decided to call a referendum on a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that the referendum was held on the 29th of January, and the 1st of March?

A. Yes.

Q. The total participation was 63.04 per cent of the electorate, of which 62 per cent voted in favour of a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. I don't know the percentages now, but I know that more than two-thirds of the electorate voted in favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, which means that it was both legal and legitimate.

Q. Mr. 1445, if a total of 63 per cent participated and of that 62 per cent voted in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina, how then can you speak of two-thirds of the electorate?

A. I said I didn't know the percentages, but there's no doubt that if those figures were not correct, the international community nor the European Union would have recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was ²⁷⁶³⁰ recognised as a sovereign and independent state.

Q. I agree with you that that should not have been done under those circumstances, but the problem is precisely that it was done, and this will be easily proven.

Is it true that the referendum was organised upon the insistence of Alija Izetbegovic at a moment in time when the regionalisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina was about to be adopted, and this was in the interest of all three peoples?

A. It was not at the request of Alija Izetbegovic but at the request of the deputies in the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

THE INTERPRETER: Could there be pauses, please, between question and answer.

JUDGE MAY: The interpreters are asking for pauses between question and answer for the speakers.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true and correct that the tension that existed during the referendum throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina culminated with the killing of the Serb Nikola Gardovic and the wounding of Radenko Mirovic, also a Serb, in Sarajevo on the 1st of March 1991, during a wedding ceremony?

A. Those two events have nothing to do with one another.

Q. That was the first killing that took place after the referendum during the tensions that prevailed.

A. Killings happen today on a daily basis in all towns, including ²⁷⁶³¹ Sarajevo. It was nothing unusual.

Q. Well, for myself as a citizen of Yugoslavia, it really was unusual. I don't know what was usual for you for wedding ceremonies, but this was perpetrated by four armed Muslim attackers, and this gave rise to panic among the Serb population. Is that true or not?

A. There was no panic. The wedding itself was supposed to serve for an incident of that kind, because the people attending the wedding ceremony provoked all the citizens through the parts they passed through, and it took place at Bastasija [phoen], a district of Sarajevo.

Q. You mean to say that the people who were the victims of these four Muslim attackers were in fact responsible for having been killed?

JUDGE MAY: We've been through this with other witnesses. This witness wasn't at the wedding, so no point going on with this. We must adjourn now in any event. We think you should have an hour and a half with this witness, which means you have one hour, ten minutes left tomorrow, Mr. Milosevic.

Witness B-1445, could you be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow to conclude your evidence. Could you remember not to speak to anybody about it, please, over the adjournment, until it's over. We will adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of

October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.