²⁷⁷⁵⁴

Tuesday, 21 October 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: The protections for the next witness which have been applied for will be granted.

While we're waiting for the witness, I will deal with some administrative matters dealing with hearings at the end of November and the beginning of December.

The week commencing Monday the 24 of November contains a UN holiday on Wednesday the 26th of November. To accommodate this, the hearings that week will be on Monday the 24th of November, Tuesday the 25th of November, and Thursday the 27th of November. Judge Robinson will not be able to attend the hearings on Tuesday the 25th and Thursday the 27th of November for medical reasons; therefore, Judge Kwon and I will be sitting alone on those days under the Rule. In the week of Tuesday the 2nd to Thursday the 4th of December, the hearings will take place as usual on Tuesday to Thursday, but Judge Robinson, for the same reason, cannot attend those hearings, and Judge Kwon and I will sit alone.

In the week commencing Monday the 8th of December, there is a Plenary meeting of the Judges and therefore there will be no hearings on those days. That is Thursday the 11th and Friday the 12th of December. The Trial Chamber will therefore sit that week on the days of Monday the 8th to Wednesday the 10th of December. ²⁷⁷⁵⁵ Yes. Is there anything before the witness comes in?

MR. GROOME: Just two preliminary matters, Your Honour. I will not be seeking to lead any evidence in closed session. I would ask that if the amici or the accused wish to inquire about the specific position that this gentleman held in the municipality, that that be done in closed session.

I'd also ask that his -- his wife and his daughter were both subjected to prolonged and extremely grievous sexual abuse. I would ask if that is going to be inquired into that that be done, out of respect for those family members, that that be done in closed session. And I would ask that a binder containing three exhibits be assigned a number at this stage.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. And I understand there is a matter of a ruling under Rule 92 bis in relation to this witness which has not been dealt with. In fact, we had made the ruling but no written form had appeared. That will be granted.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1122

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: And we will have the exhibit number, yes. ²⁷⁷⁵⁶

THE REGISTRAR: 566, Your Honour, with tab 1, 2, 3 under seal. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, you have been granted -- sir, you have been granted protective measures pursuant an order of the court. You will therefore be referred to as B-1122 during the course of your testimony here. I would ask you to begin your testimony by taking a look at tab 1 of Exhibit 566 and tell us whether you recognise that document.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that your name at the top of that document and is it also a brief summary of your professional and educational background?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you now to take a look at tab 2 of that document. It is a two-part document, an English translation of a statement and a statement in the B/C/S language. Do you recognise whose statement that is?

A. Yes. It's my statement.

Q. And after coming to The Hague, did you review that statement and notify the Office of the Prosecutor of some corrections that you wished to make?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask you to look at tab 3 of that binder, Exhibit 566, and ask you, is that an addendum to your statement, making several corrections to your original statement?

A. Yes. Yes, this is it.

Q. I'd ask you to return to tab 2, page 11, and my question to you is: Is that your signature on that page? ²⁷⁷⁵⁷

A. Yes.

Q. And did you initial every page of that statement?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you verify the truthfulness and the accuracy of that statement here now being a sworn witness?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. I would ask you to once again turn to tab 3 and if you would look at the second page in tab 3. Is that also your signature to the addendum of your statement?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And now being a sworn witness, do you verify the truthfulness and accuracy of that statement?

A. Yes. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, pursuant to Rule 89(F), I would tender both tabs 2 and 3 into evidence.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. GROOME:

Q. Sir --

JUDGE MAY: Just help us with the atlas so we can find this. I think this is the first witness from this municipality.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my apologies. I don't have our copy of the atlas here. Perhaps I could ask the witness to explain where geographically Gacko is located and then I'll have a page reference for the Chamber at the break.

Q. Sir, can I ask you to describe for the Chamber where Gacko is ²⁷⁷⁵⁸ located in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. Yes. Gacko is in Eastern Herzegovina. The neighbouring municipalities are to the north Foca and Kalinovik, to the east Montenegro, to the south Bileca and Stolac, and to the west Nevesinje.

Q. Sir, the Chamber is in possession of your statement which is a full account of the events as you witnessed them in Gacko. I want to ask you some specific questions regarding that evidence. The first question I would like to ask you is: In your statement, you describe the presence of White Eagles in Gacko, and could I ask you to identify the earliest period in time when you saw White Eagles, members of the White Eagles in Gacko?

A. It was in March 1992.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the atlas reference is page 33, sector D3.

JUDGE MAY: We have it, thank you.

MR. GROOME:

Q. And sir, how were you able to identify them as White Eagles?

A. They wore the White Eagle insignia on their sleeve here.

Q. Now, during the course of the time that they were in Gacko, can you describe or did you form an opinion with respect to the relationship between the White Eagles and official members of the JNA?

A. Well, you see, when the White Eagles arrived in Gacko, they were quartered in the barracks 3 kilometres to the east of Gacko, and these were barracks used by the Yugoslav army. And then we could see them socialising in town, going to cafes together. I think they acted together ^{27759 BLANK PAGE 27760} as far as we could see, completely.

Q. Did you make any observations with respect to the weapons that were carried by these members of the White Eagles?

A. Yes, I did. They wore -- they carried Yugoslav army weapons, mostly automatic rifles. They also had heavy weapons, mortars. They had guns. One could see that when they went off to the Mostar battlefield. They had uniforms and all the logistics of the JNA, and this was obvious.

Q. Now, I'd like to jump ahead to a meeting that you describe in your statement on the 28th of April, 1992, a meeting that was held with General Momcilo Perisic. Can I ask you to summarise to the Chamber what, if any, assurances the Muslim community sought from General Perisic; and secondly, what assurances did he give the Muslim community?

A. I remember there was a meeting of representatives of the Serb and the Muslim peoples, and this meeting was also attended by General Perisic, who was commanding operations near Mostar. In view of the fact that some events had taken place in Gacko, violent events against the Muslims, the Muslims asked General Perisic to guarantee that he would protect the civilian populations. There were only civilians there. General Perisic addressed the meeting promising this, and the representatives of the Muslim side asked about the paramilitary formations. They asked who the White Eagles were and what they were doing in Gacko, because General Perisic said that in his area of responsibility, he would not tolerate any sort of paramilitary organisations. When he was asked about the White Eagles and who they were, he didn't give a reply, but he did promise to protect the civilian population in the area of ²⁷⁷⁶¹ Gacko. However, he failed to keep his promise.

Q. Now, the day after General Perisic said that he would not permit paramilitaries in the area, what, if anything, happened to the members of the White Eagles in Gacko?

A. I know that representatives of the Bosniak side told General Perisic about the activities of the White Eagles, and on the following day, the White Eagles went to the Mostar front, and on their way through the town, they started firing wildly on the main square. They fired shots, a lot of shots, and then they went to the Mostar front. I don't think that they stayed in Mostar long, only about a week. And after that, they came back to Gacko, and again they were quartered in the barracks, the military barracks.

Q. So the day after General Perisic addressed the combined Serbian and Muslim communities, the White Eagles left for a period of about a week before returning to Gacko; is that correct?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Now, if I can draw your attention to the 1st of June, 1992. Your statement refers to another meeting, a meeting with Colonel Parezanin of the JNA. Can I ask you to summarise for the Chamber what it was Colonel Parezanin said to the people assembled or people present at that meeting?

A. On the 1st of June, 1992, arrests of the Bosniak population in Gacko began, and on that day there was another meeting between representatives of the Serbs and Muslims or, rather, Bosniaks, and in the morning, this was in the Municipal Assembly, and in the afternoon in the ²⁷⁷⁶² police headquarters.

While the meeting was going on, a gentleman came in and said he was Colonel Parezanin. I think he was assistant of the corps commander for the rear. The topic of the negotiations was that the Serbs wanted the Muslims to give up some weapons which they didn't have, and Colonel Parezanin said, "Discuss this with the official authorities and fulfil your promise, otherwise I will raze this Muslim village to the ground," and he pointed to a Muslim village, and then he left the room.

Q. Did there come a time when he returned and introduced another person who was present at that meeting?

A. Yes. When he reached the door, he turned back and said, "I forgot to introduce this gentleman." And there was a man sitting there whom I didn't know, and he said, "This is Colonel -" and I forgot his name, but he said he was the commander of the Red Berets. This was the first time I had heard of the name Red Berets.

This gentleman said, "Yes, I am" such-and-such a person, "fulfill the requirements of the Serbian side. If not, I can bring 5.000 specials here." And then I think they both left the meeting.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness said, as far as I can interpret what he said in Serbian, that they were to fulfil the promises and that he was able to raze to the ground a hill over there, and the witness said there was also a Muslim village there. The record says, as it was interpreted, "Fulfil your promises or I will raze this Muslim village to the ground." So the interpretation is completely different. ²⁷⁷⁶³

JUDGE MAY: Let us -- let us -- we needn't -- We needn't go on further but we will clarify what it was the colonel said. Can the witness do that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I can assist. The colonel addressed us and asked us to fulfil the demands of the Serbian side, and if we failed to do this, he said, "I am able to raze that hill to the ground," but there were Muslim villages on that hill. That's how it was.

MR. GROOME:

Q. I want to now return not to Colonel Parezanin but the other colonel whose name you do not recall but who was introduced as the commander of the Red Berets. My question to you is: Was he wearing at that time any type of red headgear that you could see?

A. No. No. No.

Q. When he made this reference to 5.000 specialists, what was your understanding of what a "specialist" was?

A. I didn't know who the Red Berets were, to be quite honest. I didn't know who they were. At that moment, we were under enormous pressure. It was a very unpleasant situation and I took this seriously.

Q. Did you know what he meant when he referred to the term "specialist"?

A. Probably a Special Purpose Unit. It was afterwards that I learned who the Red Berets were. They were a special unit from Nis, of the JNA. At that moment, I didn't know who they were.

Q. From what source did you learn this information about where the ²⁷⁷⁶⁴ Red Berets came from?

A. Well -- well, you find out. People talk. You ask people. In communication with other people. So I didn't learn it from any official source. We were simply struggling to survive at that time, to save ourselves somehow.

MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1122, you say in your statement that prior to the elections -- and you're talking about the elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I assume; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that in the time that preceded those elections, the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party -- you say that in paragraph 4. "In the time leading up to the elections, the SDS held large rallies in Kosovo and Belgrade and other places." Were they rallies of the Serbian Democratic Party, in fact? When you say, "Many Serbs from Gacko attended these rallies and they were strong Serb nationalists." That's what you say.

A. Yes, that is in the statement. However, I corrected that subsequently and said that during the time the elections -- during the time large-scale rallies in Kosovo and Belgrade were taking place, and other places, that a large number of nationalists from Gacko, from the Serbs, attended and went to attend those events. So I made this correction in the addendum.

Q. All right, Mr. 1122. Now, these large-scale rallies at Gazimestan ^{27765 BLANK PAGE 27766} and Usce, did you hear a single word said at Gazimestan or Usce which could be qualified as being nationalistic or nationalism?

A. Well, I think that the contents and subject of those rallies is common knowledge.

Q. All right. So your answer is in fact yes; you're claiming that it is.

A. Yes.

Q. In that brief examination-in-chief, and I'm not going to present you with all the different rallies because we'd use up a lot of time that way, but tell me this, please: Did you see the rallies of the SDA party?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that the first nationalist party that was established in Bosnia-Herzegovina was precisely the Democratic Party of the SDA on the 26th of May, 1990? Isn't that right?

A. I really don't know the dates.

Q. You don't know the dates?

A. No, I don't. The SDA, the SDS, the HDZ, I really don't know when they were formed, but I do know about the local level in Gacko. I know that the Serbian Democratic Party was set up on the 2nd of August, for example, 1990, whereas on the 1st of September, the Party of Democratic Action was formed. So I just know this at a local level.

Q. All right. Now tell me what the rallies were like of the SDA party, the Party of Democratic Action. What were their rallies like?

A. They were pre-electoral activities, in fact, where the political parties or, rather, the political party, the Party of Democratic Action, ²⁷⁷⁶⁷ the SDA, tried to win over the electorate in order to gain power, come into power, and this was in fact a power struggle.

Q. Now, did you at those rallies notice any exclusiveness in the positions taken by the Party of Democratic Action that was expressed in the fact that there was room in Bosnia only for Muslims and nobody else, or anything of that kind?

A. No. That was never the case.

Q. It was never the case?

A. No. It wasn't even in the programme of the Party of Democratic Action at all. It wasn't set out there either.

Q. All right. Now, is it true and correct that the basis for the party's activities was the Islamic declaration by Izetbegovic, in fact?

A. I don't know about that. I'm not informed in that respect, so I can't answer your question. I haven't read the Islamic declaration either.

Q. You haven't read it?

A. No, I haven't, quite certainly.

Q. And yet you were an SDA functionary, official.

A. I think that's got nothing to do with it. If I was an official, I still didn't have to read the declaration.

Q. Now, you say in paragraph 4 that there was propaganda which promoted Serb nationalism and invented crimes which the Muslims were supposed to have committed against the Serbs and that some articles mentioned Gacko and invented incidents and crimes which the Muslims were supposed to have committed. ²⁷⁷⁶⁸

A. Yes.

Q. That's what you say.

A. That's how my statement reads, and that's the truth of it.

Q. So was that remembrance of history? Is that what this is referring to, when Islamism was being revived and with respect to the breakdown of Yugoslavia?

A. When I gave this statement, this referred to what was going on in Gacko, and it was a revival or burgeoning of Serb nationalism, because literary evenings were being held which did not resemble literary evenings at all, in fact. They represented political manifestations. And then I have in mind the guslevski evenings which were characteristic for the area. Mr. Milosevic, you know that through that that is a good way of reviving nationalism. Then I also have in mind the important people that came to Gacko to make speeches, who weren't from the area originally, who didn't live in Gacko but who at one time originated from Gacko. And I also have in mind the books that had a highly negative effect in the area and revived and garnished nationalism. Vuk Draskovic's book is a case in point, called Noz, or The Knife.

Q. All right, Mr. 1122. You wrote all this in point 4, and you've just stated that they were writers who lived in Belgrade or elsewhere but originated from the area.

A. Not only authors; I mention important people.

Q. You mention Gojko Djogo, you mention Vuk Draskovic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have particularly highlighted Draskovic's book. And as ²⁷⁷⁶⁹ far as I know, all that came out far before these events took place.

A. Yes, but it was a good topic, a good subject for the nationalists.

Q. Is it true that the events which are described in the book were actually based on historical facts, on events which took place? And the -- and the book was published much before any of these events took place.

A. I think that this is a very vulnerable area, region, and whenever the situation was unstable in the region, then there were things on both sides, inhumane acts, killings, crimes, they did take place, but far more on the Serb side than the Bosnian side, and history proves that.

Q. You mean in World War II?

A. Before World War II as well and in the Second World War also.

Q. All right. Now, as you're explaining -- as you've just mentioned the guslevski evenings, for those of you who are not familiar with this term, the gusle were a national instrument to accompany folksongs that were being sung; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And these are folksongs that have been sung for centuries and decades; isn't that right?

A. Yes. But it is a time when exclusively nationalist songs are sung, and that's the subject, that's the topic of it.

Q. So the gusle, the instrument the gusle, a string instrument, contributed to the development of nationalism. Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes, absolutely so.

Q. So you count the gusle evenings among the nationalist ²⁷⁷⁷⁰ manifestations and events that took place?

A. Absolutely so, yes.

Q. All right. Mr. 1122. If the people whose ancestors originated from the area or have relations there, have houses there, if they came to the area, if they were authors, public personages, took part in the various cultural events or whatever you like to term them, what has that got to do with Serbia?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I remember very well a meeting held by the Serbian Democratic Party in Gacko at which Budimir Kosutic took the floor, and he just originated from Gacko, but he was very close to the SPS party and your own party, very close to your own party. And he made a speech there, and it was quite obvious what the subject and goal of what he was saying was. That was quite evident. We knew what he was saying, what the subject was, what it was geared towards.

Q. Well, do you know that Budimir Kosutic is a professor at the faculty of law in Belgrade?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that Budimir Kosutic, he wrote down that Budimir Kosutic was my chef de cabinet?

A. That's how he introduced himself, and I think that he took part in television programmes in that capacity fairly frequently, Yugoslav television, the former Yugoslavia television. He would be on television.

Q. Mr. 1122, he quite certainly couldn't have appeared in that capacity because he never worked in my cabinet, let alone the fact that he was the -- my chef de cabinet. Throughout the time that you're referring ^{27771 BLANK PAGE 27772} to he was in actual fact a professor of law at the Faculty of Law. So what you're saying that he introduced himself on television as being my chef de cabinet is quite untrue. He couldn't have introduced himself as being that.

JUDGE MAY: Depends on what the man said on television. Whether he was telling the truth or not is an another matter.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, can you imagine a law professor coming on television, known by so many people, and saying, "I am President Milosevic's chef de cabinet"? That is nonsense.

JUDGE MAY: Well, law professors can say a great many things, but let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree with you there. I quite agree, yes. That is true for men of the law.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Anyway, Mr. 1122, isn't -- wasn't that equally true both for the Serbs and the Muslims and for the Croats, for the Macedonians, the Slovenes, that regardless of where they lived, they always have some connections with their roots, with their region of origin? They would go back from time to time to take part in certain activities. It wasn't specific to Gacko.

A. Mr. Milosevic, his speech there was full of nationalism, and his speech wasn't suited to this kind of event, an event held by people who wanted peace. It served to burgeon nationalism.

Q. Tell me, when did Budimir Kosutic deliver that speech?

A. It was an event, a manifestation. I can't remember the exact ²⁷⁷⁷³ date. It was sometime, I think, in the autumn of 1991.

Q. Was it a cultural event?

A. No. It was a political event of the party of -- of the Serbian Democratic Party, in fact.

Q. So it was a meeting of the Serbian Democratic Party. Was Kosutic a member of the SDS?

A. This is how it was: It was a manifestation of the SDS party in Gacko, and at that event there were many speakers. One of them was Budimir Kosutic.

Q. All right. Now, I don't have Kosutic's speech here with me, and I don't think we need discuss his speech at all either with you, that is, but as in point 10 you say that the first large scale rally of the SDS was held on the 2nd of August, 1990, in the village of Nadanici?

A. Nadanici.

Q. Right, Nadanici. I don't know the names of those places in that region. Anyway, it was organised by the church and it was held in front of the church, and it was held on the date of an Orthodox holiday?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, do you have an explanation as to what was happening there? Now, if the church organises for an Orthodox religious holiday, a rally of citizens, Serbs who are of the Orthodox faith, to have them meet in front of the church for an Orthodox holiday, what about it?

A. Well, the Orthodox holiday of the 2nd of August is well known as Ilindan, St. Ilija's Day.

Q. Yes, everybody knows that. ²⁷⁷⁷⁴

A. And on that day, on St. Elijah's Day, there was a traditional festival that was held, but that particular day, St. Elijah's Day was used to set up the Serbian Democratic Party, and it was from the SDS headquarters, I think, that Velibor Ostojic was present.

Q. Velibor Ostojic was from the headquarters in Sarajevo; is that right?

A. Yes, quite.

Q. So they were there for St. Elijah's Day and they formed the SDS branch of Gacko; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Now, was that after the SDA party had been formed?

A. No. It was before the SDA party had been formed.

Q. You mean in Gacko?

A. Yes.

Q. After the SDA had been set up throughout Bosnia. I assume you know that.

A. Well, in Gacko, the SDA party was formed on the 1st of September of that same year.

Q. So in Gacko it was formed 28 days before the --

A. After.

Q. All right. After the party in Gacko.

A. The SDS was established before it was established first in Sarajevo and then in Gacko later on.

Q. Now in addition to the SDA, was there a Muslim, the MOS branch of the SDA party, the youth Muslim organisation? ²⁷⁷⁷⁵

A. No.

Q. You didn't have a Muslim youth alliance?

A. No. There were only 3.800 Muslims in Gacko at that time, and our only goal was to survive, to save our heads.

Q. So you know nothing about this Muslim youth alliance. You have no experience with that.

A. No, I know nothing about it, I have no experience of it.

Q. All right. So I'm not going to ask you anything about that then.

A. Thank you.

Q. Now, in Gacko with respect to the elections in 1990, the autumn of 1990, in fact, when the elections were held, establish a coalition of any kind?

A. No.

Q. You were independent, were you?

A. Well, there were three political parties at the elections; the SDS, the SDA, and the SDP. Those three parties had their list of candidates, their ticket.

Q. The HDZ, wasn't there?

A. Well, there were no Croats there, no Croat inhabitants.

Q. SDP is the Social Democratic Party; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Tell me this now, please: How come or how was it that the distribution was made? How were the positions and posts after the elections distributed in your municipality? Was this done on the basis of a proportionate ratio, Serbs/Muslims? And I'm referring to point 8 of ²⁷⁷⁷⁶ your statement, because you say that the SDS held all the influential positions.

A. Yes.

Q. You say that none of the SDS members could act independently. What about the secretary for national defence? Was he Safet Skaljic?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. So he was in charge of defence on behalf of the SDA party?

A. He was chief of the Territorial -- the chief of Territorial Defence was a Serb, and he was the next man. He was the administrative man and had an administrative post.

Q. So he was the municipal defence secretary?

A. No. There was a chief there and the structure was quite different.

Q. And Elvedin Zugur, the police chief, was he also from the SDA?

A. Yes, he was on paper, but he wielded no influence whatsoever.

Q. Well, how could a police chief not wield any influence if he is in command of the police?

A. We wasn't in command of the police because the deputy police chief was a Serb, Branko Popic.

Q. So the commander, the chief, was a Muslim and the deputy a Serb, is that it, on paper?

A. On paper.

Q. What does that mean?

A. May I be allowed to explain? The mayor of the municipality was a Serb. The Prime Minister was a Serb. The chief of MUP was a Serb. The ^{27777 BLANK PAGE 27778} commander of the Territorial Defence was a Serb. So those were the key positions in the municipal organs. Anything underneath that, below that -- the chief of police comes below the chief of MUP, for instance. So in actual fact, they were just figureheads, directors of companies, for example, general managers. There were some Muslims before but there were none afterwards. The Serbs took all key positions. I don't know that there was a single Muslim director except in the hospital when he was replaced by a medical technician whereas he had the title of "primarius" before that.

Q. Yes, but the defence secretary, Safet Skaljic, from the SDA and the chief of police, Elvedin Zugur, from the SDA as well, they did hold those posts. You're not challenging that.

A. No, I'm not.

Q. Now, in the police structure generally were there Muslim policemen, as many, for instance, as there were Muslims in the municipality, proportionate to the Muslim population?

A. Yes, until the SAO, the Serb autonomous region of Herzegovina was formed, and then the Muslim policemen left the police force.

Q. So they left it.

A. Yes, because they weren't given any tasks to do. They were just figureheads. They had no power.

Q. Very well. You say in point 10 that when the conflict in Croatia started, the Serbs organised a "Jurisni Bataljon," an attack battalion, which was a name used by a Chetnik unit in World War II.

A. Correct. ²⁷⁷⁷⁹

Q. Can any atrocities, as you say, committed by the Serbs be compared to the atrocities committed against the Serbs in World War II? There is a mass grave there, isn't there?

A. Yes, but this mass grave was called Dizdarusa previously, and a large number of Muslim families were slaughtered, many of them called Dizdaruvic, which is why the place was called Dizdarusa.

Q. In 1941 were Serbs thrown into this pit, into this ravine?

A. I read about this but I wasn't alive at the time.

Q. Well, no, you weren't alive in 1918 and yet you're pointing out this answer.

A. I'm saying that this was a vulnerable area where many atrocities were committed on all sides.

Q. Tell me, how many Serbian women and children were thrown into this ravine in World War II?

A. I really wouldn't know.

Q. You say that the SDA called on soldiers and officers born in Bosnia to leave the JNA, and at the same time they prevented the calling up of JNA soldiers from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. Where did I say this?

Q. I'll find this for you. It's in paragraph 9. The last third of this paragraph: "We discussed the mobilisation call in this manner and made a recommendation that SDA did not have to answer the mobilisation call. We stated that the war in Croatia and Slovenia was not our war, and that we would join the effort when the borders of our municipality were attacked. Therefore no ²⁷⁷⁸⁰ Muslims joined the mobilisation."

A. Yes. This is quite true. We did not sign a document with the SDA or, rather, there was an inter-party commission of the SDS and SDA where the SDA said they did not want to join in this conflict because we were not in favour of war. We were in favour of peace. This was not our war, and we said that we would go to war when our municipality was attacked.

Q. Yes, but as you know, the JNA was the armed force of all the peoples of Yugoslavia.

A. All this was taking place, I think, after Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally recognised. No, no. This was 1991, so you're right. Yes, that's correct. We did not respond to the mobilisation; correct.

Q. Do you know that the JNA attempted to prevent the conflict and that was its main role precisely at the time when you refused to join the mobilisation?

A. I wouldn't say that's how it was.

Q. Very well. Do you know that the SDA continuously de-legitimised the armed forces and that this was one of your standpoints, that the JNA should be abandoned, that the mobilisation should not be responded to, and that the Muslims should boycott the JNA in every way? Do you remember when the SDA proclaimed its own war command?

A. No. No, I'm not familiar with that.

Q. Did the SDA party say that the Territorial Defence Staff was pro-Serb and an occupying army?

A. General Gosaluvic [phoen] was the chief of staff.

Q. He was a Serb. ²⁷⁷⁸¹

A. Yes. All I know is that he was the commander of the Territorial Defence.

Q. And then he was replaced and the Territorial Defence Staff was disbanded and their own staff was set up.

A. I was hiding in the mountains at the time when this happened in Sarajevo, so I'm not familiar with the details. At that time, I was in the wilderness, in the mountains in Zelengora with my children and my wife, trying to save our lives. So I was not able to follow the events that were taking place then.

Q. Well, if you were not able to follow these events, I won't ask you about them. Somebody else will probably be able to say more about this. You say that the weapons of the Territorial Defence were stored in your area and that in 1989 the republican authorities decided to move these weapons from Gacko to Konjic.

A. That's how it was in all municipalities in 1989. The weapons were taken to central depots. So they were taken to Konjic.

Q. To keep them safe there; right?

A. Yes, but three truckloads were separated off - I don't know under what regulations - and brought to Gacko and distributed to the Serbs, and they were trained to use these weapons. We could hear them practising shooting in the mountains around Gacko.

Q. Very well. Let's look into this. So on the 10th of July, 1990, you were mentioning this incident, a police patrol from Gacko noticed a truck passing close to Gacko.

A. Yes. ²⁷⁷⁸²

Q. They tried to stop it and this was a patrol consisting of one Muslim and one Serb.

A. Yes.

Q. And they stopped the truck near the exit from the town?

A. Yes.

Q. They took the driver to the police station where they held him for a day or two, and then on the 12th of July, 50 cars full of people from Nevesinje arrived at the police station.

A. Yes.

Q. And set the driver free?

A. In quotation marks.

Q. Yes. And fired shots from automatic weapons I suppose into the air. Is that correct?

A. Yes, yes, yes.

Q. And they behaved in a wild manner.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it clear that this is some sort of local smuggling of weapons?

A. No. That's not clear, Mr. Milosevic. The Yugoslav army was arming the Serb population. It's true there was a mixed patrol consisting of Savo Stojanovic who was a Serb and the Kampala [phoen]. If this man was a Serb, it doesn't mean that he took part in this arming. It's true that they arrested the driver and brought him to Gacko and that on the 12th of July, and I think that this is an Orthodox holiday but I'm not sure, yes, yes. They came from Nevesinje, a column of cars to Gacko in front of the police. No one dared opposed them. They fired shots. They ²⁷⁷⁸³ acted wildly, and then they took off the driver. He was from Nevesinje.

Q. So the driver was from Nevesinje?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And the other two participants were two policemen, one Serb and one Muslim who had nothing to do with it?

A. Yes.

Q. So the people from Nevesinje who came and behaved wildly?

A. Yes.

Q. These are all the participants in this event?

A. Yes.

Q. What has that to do with this then, because that's the neighbouring municipality. There was a local arms smuggler, two local policemen. What has Serbia got to do with any of this? What has the JNA got to do with any of this?

A. Arms are not produced in Nevesinje or in Gacko. Weapons are produced in factories that in the former Yugoslavia were controlled by the JNA.

Q. Yes, controlled by the JNA.

A. You could not go and buy weapons in a kiosk.

Q. Of course not. You're putting this in the context of the illegal arming and the paramilitary formations. Do you know that the first paramilitary formations set up in Bosnia and Herzegovina was the party, para-army of the SDA called the Patriotic League?

A. I really don't know these dates. And this Patriotic League, was it a formation, a unit? What was it? ²⁷⁷⁸⁴

Q. It was established all over Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. But not in Gacko.

Q. Not in Gacko?

A. Certainly not.

Q. Do you remember they had nine regional staffs, 103 municipal staffs?

A. No, I'm not aware of that. That was at a higher level.

Q. Do you know that as part of these activities in August 1992, there were --

THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please slow down.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- battalions. Do you know all this?

A. I don't know all this. I think this is pure propaganda.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down, Mr. Milosevic, by the interpreters.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that the leadership of this Patriotic League was entrusted to form a JNA officer, Sefer Halilovic, who was later appointed Commander-in-Chief of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and then to Lieutenant Colonel Meho Karisik --

JUDGE MAY: The witness has said he doesn't know anything about this. He describes it as propaganda. Whether it is or not we'll have to determine in due course. ²⁷⁷⁸⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, did these clashes, all the conflicts you are talking about, did they begin after the 6th of April, 1992, when the so-called international recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina took place based on that rump referendum? Is that so?

A. You see, before this, the Muslim population in my municipality was mistreated. Two of our young men were killed. I think it was in March. Their names were Boskovic and Grebovic. People were beaten in Gacko. Their shops, the Muslim shops, were bombed. Muslim cafes were bombed. At that time, we were suffering under repression and mistreatment, so we didn't know much about what was going on outside our municipality.

Q. Well, as you don't know anything further away from your municipality, do you know about the Green Berets, the directive given to the Green Berets and other Muslim formations that barracks and JNA officers and soldiers should be attacked?

A. No. This did not happen in Gacko.

Q. You know that the Presidency of Yugoslavia, on the 4th of May, reached a decision that the JNA should withdraw from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. What Presidency are you talking about?

Q. The Presidency of the SFRY.

A. I know about this. To what extent this was actually respected, that's a different matter. I think it was not, for the most part.

Q. Do you think today that it was a good thing for the JNA to ²⁷⁷⁸⁶ withdraw from Bosnia and Herzegovina when all these paramilitaries were running amok in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. They were all part of the JNA. The White Eagles were part of the JNA, and all the other paramilitary units were part of the JNA. The JNA armed them. At least, they did in our area. That's what I saw and that's how I experienced it.

Q. Very well. The Muslim units and the HVO, they were also part of the JNA?

A. They weren't there in our area. These units weren't in our area. I can't talk about them.

Q. I won't ask you about things you can't talk about. Just let me see.

You say in paragraph 17 that "... this 'attacking battalion' were armed with automatic weapons, they held military exercises ... They were not dressed like soldiers at that time. In March 1991 there was a special police unit who had been sent to Bileca to calm the situation down when the weapons had been seized. When the police unit was on the way back to Sarajevo, the Serbs of the 'attacking battalion' and some other paramilitary units, led by Obren Govedarica, who was the head of the White Eagles for Herzegovina --" Let's stop here.

This man whom I've just mentioned - and I was reading from your statement - is he from Herzegovina?

A. Yes.

Q. This unit of the White Eagles which you mention, were they also from Herzegovina? ²⁷⁷⁸⁷

A. The attacking battalion is mentioned here.

Q. I'm talking about the White Eagles. You said at the beginning that in this -- during your testimony here. Were these White Eagles from Herzegovina?

A. You see, their commander was a certain Ljubo, and a song was written about his heroism, his heroism in killing unarmed civilians during the attack on Kula, which is a Muslim village. This Ljubo was killed, Captain Ljubo, at that place, and a poem was written about his heroism saying he was born in Valjevo. That's what the song says. And this was published in 1992. It's a song written to be sung accompanied by the gusle.

Q. Govedarica, the commander of the White Eagles in Herzegovina, was a Herzegovinian and so were the members of the unit.

A. What I meant when I said that -- well, Govedarica was not a military commander. He was the president of the regional committee for Herzegovina, and of course as a civilian commander, he had influence on the White Eagles, but their commander was Ljubo, and I think his last name was something like Moljevic or Mocevic.

Q. You say Govedarica, leader of the White Eagles in Herzegovina. And then you say that the commander of the special police unit was named Vikic.

A. Yes.

Q. He was a Serb too, was he?

A. I -- I added something to this. This is Dragan Vikic, and he was from the special unit of the republican MUP. So I'm not referring to the ^{27788 BLANK PAGE 27789} MUP of Gacko but the republican MUP.

Q. But this Dragan Vikic has to be a Serb?

A. No, he doesn't have to be a Serb. I don't know what he was. Dragan Vikic was one of the well-known commanders for the defence of Sarajevo. He's still living in Sarajevo, and he is an eminent person. I don't know.

Q. This is what you say: "I think that in the case that this police unit did something contrary to what the Serbs wanted, the ambush would have shot at them."

A. Yes.

Q. So they didn't actually shoot, but you think that they would have shot had the other side done something they didn't like?

A. Yes. Why would they have rallied there otherwise, gathered there and set up an ambush in the first place.

Q. Well, was it an ambush?

A. Well, they didn't do any shooting. Mr. Milosevic --

Q. Just tell me if they shot or not.

A. It was like this, Mr. Milosevic: This man Obren Govedarica came to the municipality wearing a military uniform. He went to the president's office. That's where he was seen. He was our -- our representative was sitting there and when Obren came in and everybody knew each other there because you know what all that was about. It was the weapons seized from the Yugoslav army, from the national deputy named Kozic. The demonstrations ensued in Bileca and the republican MUP went to calm the situation down, and I think you know -- I think you know that it ²⁷⁷⁹⁰ was all they could do to save their skins from Bileca.

Q. Who is that?

A. From the specials of the republican MUP. And they escaped. Now, there was an ambush here as nothing happened in Bileca, as there was no shooting there, these here did not, but all that was coordinated and of course these people didn't have to shoot.

Q. How do you say you -- to me that I should know? How should I know what was happening in another -- different republic in Gacko? What has Serbia got to do with that?

A. Well, I see that you have a lot of information.

Q. I receive information when I have a witness, but I know nothing about Gacko to be quite frank.

A. All right. But this is true.

Q. Then you say: "That day, I was sitting in Lazetic's office when Obren Govedarica entered right after that." That's the event you've just described. "He was dressed in regular JNA uniform without any insignia, he was full of enthusiasm, enthusiastic because he had managed to gather a large number of volunteers who were armed and ready for action." So these White Eagles that you're talking about under Obren Govedarica were local volunteers, in fact, who were now putting on the insignia of the White Eagles and didn't want to display their insignia of the JNA.

A. Here it says "Serbs from the Assault Battalion and other paramilitary units including the White Eagles." That's what it says.

Q. So all these were in fact people from the ranks of the local population; is that right? ²⁷⁷⁹¹

A. It was like this: In the White Eagle units there were some local inhabitants, yes, there were, but the commander at the time was this man Ljubo.

Q. You mean the Ljubo who was killed?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And when was he killed? In 1991, is that it?

A. He was killed during an attack on the Muslim village of Medjunici on the 17th of June, 1992. July, I'm sorry. I meant to say July.

Q. All right.

A. So it was absolutely certain that he was within the White Eagles composition. They were from Serbia and I even sat with that man Ljubo with some municipal representatives. There was one of our men who had a political function there and he would often talk to these people. And then at this point this man Ljubo told the other one that he was the commander of the White Eagles and that he had the veterans, and I repeat, veterans from the Vukovar battlefield among its -- this unit.

Q. Who organised that?

A. Well, of course that was organised by the SDS and that there was this feedback mechanism that was set in place.

Q. All right. Now you're talking about incidents that took place between the SDA and SDS, that is to say, between the Serbs and Muslims of your region?

A. Yes, but where is that here?

Q. That's what you say in point 22, paragraph 22. Now, was it precisely in order to decrease tensions that the JNA had gone to Gacko? ²⁷⁷⁹²

A. I'm not following you. Are you talking about the Muslims and the Serbs or the SDS?

Q. I'm talking about both the Muslims and the Serbs and the tension that existed.

A. Yes. I see.

Q. Now, my question is this: Was it precisely due to that tension that the JNA came to Gacko?

A. The JNA came to Gacko as it was withdrawing from Croatia and before that it was at the barracks at Bileca, that well-known barracks, and the Hercegovina Corps and units of the Uzice Corps were moving towards Mostar and I don't think that I can say that they came there to quell the situation. They came to perform quite another task.

Q. All right. But at that time, the army of Republika Srpska was already in existence; isn't that right?

A. I do believe so, yes.

Q. I hope -- are you not challenging that this was made up of soldiers and officers that were either born there or lived there before the war, the members of the Republika Srpska army?

A. The Republika Srpska army had -- well, we were expelled from Gacko at the time, but I do know that there were people from the area of Republika Srpska and from the broader area of Serbia as well, and Montenegro, and Montenegro.

Q. All right. Just explain this to me: You mentioned a moment ago the killing that took place in March 1992 of -- you say in March 1992, the White Eagles killed Zoran Grebovic who was from a Serb-Muslim marriage; is ²⁷⁷⁹³ that right?

A. Yes, but just tell me what paragraph that's in.

Q. I think it's paragraph 23 where you say that, but you know about all this.

"On the 2nd of March, 1992, Serbian paramilitary units had a checkpoint in the direction of Foca. They stopped two Muslims who were returning from Foca, they took them with their car to the mountain called Cemerno and killed them."

A. Yes.

Q. Their names were Zoran Grebovic, who was from a mixed Serb-Muslim marriage, and Amir Poskovic, a Muslim.

A. Yes.

Q. And then you go on to say who the killers are.

A. Yes.

Q. "... Mastilovic and Vukovic from Gacko. The bodies were discovered by a policeman," and all the rest of it, et cetera, et cetera.

A. Yes.

Q. Therefore all this was taking place between the local Serbs and the local Muslims; isn't that right?

A. This particular event was an event like that, yes, this specific event.

Q. Now, does that have anything to do with anyone from Serbia?

A. Of course it does, because it was organised there. They had come to organise it. Ljubo had come to organise it. And I know on one occasion -- ^{27794 BLANK PAGE 27795}

Q. Haven't we just established that this event had nothing to do with people who weren't local Serbs or local Muslims?

A. Yes. We can accept that for this particular incident.

Q. All right. Let's move on now. You said a moment ago that the army, when it was withdrawing from Croatia, withdrew to your area.

A. Yes, among other things.

Q. Where, where else could it have gone? It could have gone to Bosnia, to Serbia, to Montenegro. Where else could the army have gone if it had left Slovenia and left Croatia? Because it was on its own country's territory, the territory of its own state.

JUDGE MAY: There is no need to answer that. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Now, this killing for which we established a moment ago was an incident which happened exclusively between local participants, and this disturbed people in Gacko a great deal.

A. Yes.

Q. And that's quite understandable?

A. Yes, absolutely.

Q. Then you mention a meeting that was held -- actually, it was a large rally held with respect to that killing because the people were upset. And then you mention General Perisic, who came to attend the rally.

A. No, Perisic didn't come to that rally.

Q. But the meeting held because of the incident. ²⁷⁷⁹⁶

A. Not even that, because the incident took place, I think, in March, the 5th of March -- the rally took place on the 5th of March, whereas the meeting with Perisic was on the 28th of April, in actual fact. So this isn't tied in.

Q. But it's tied into the situation, the general situation.

A. That's right, not meeting but the situation.

Q. And what meeting was it that Perisic attended?

A. It was a party meeting.

Q. Did you attend the meeting yourself? Were you there?

A. Well, I don't want to answer that question.

Q. All right, you don't have to.

A. This meeting was at a broader level, held at a broader level because the meeting was presided over by the president of the SAO of Herzegovina, and present were the representatives of the Serb municipalities from the area, from Stara Herzegovina, and several representatives by the Muslims from Gacko, I think, somebody along those lines. And the meeting was chaired by Milan Bojovic, the Prime Minister of the government of the Serb autonomous region of Herzegovina. And at the meeting the commander of the Yugoslav army was also present, and as far as I know, SAO Herzegovina was never a constitutional legal entity within Yugoslavia; it was in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. It was a meeting at which Perisic attended, and did he say he was a commander in the Yugoslav army?

A. Yes.

Q. Which was composed of all the nations, all the ethnic groups. ²⁷⁷⁹⁷

A. That was the story he told us but it wasn't a true story. That wasn't true.

Q. What do you mean it wasn't a true story? Wasn't the Yugoslav army composed of all the nations, all the ethnic groups?

A. It was beforehand but not at that time.

Q. But he emphasised that he would remain commander until all the three ethnic groups were there as part of the Yugoslav army.

A. Yes, that's what he told us.

Q. He emphasised, therefore, he stressed that the Yugoslav army was an army of all the nations, all the ethnic groups?

A. Yes, that's what he said.

Q. And did he also say that he would prohibit paramilitary formations and their activities in his area of responsibility?

A. That's what he said, but he didn't prohibit them.

Q. Do you know how much effort the JNA put in to place the paramilitaries under their control?

A. Well, no. In my area, they gave logistic support to them.

Q. Well, do you know that Radovan Karadzic reacted with respect to the operations of the paramilitaries in Gacko?

A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that. I'd like to see the document.

Q. I'll let you see an order here. I have an order.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it's been translated into English, of the 3rd of July, 1992. That's the date of it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁷⁷⁹⁸

Q. The Presidency of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at a meeting held on the 3rd of July, proclaimed an order to undertake an investigation on the activities of paramilitary groups in the area of the municipalities of Gacko and Nevesinje - which makes it your municipality and the neighbouring municipality - and it charges the Ministry of the Interior of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to conduct an investigation on the activities of paramilitary groups in the municipalities of Gacko and Nevesinje. And after the investigation, the ministry will table an extensive report with the facts established in the area of the two municipalities mentioned. The President of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic. That's the signatory, and you can take a look at that document.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have a look at the original, the B/C/S version, and we will have the translation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I -- I don't know -- I am not aware of this document, but it is quite obvious here that they were working in just one direction. At least that's my opinion, to start ethnic cleansing in Gacko which was to take place soon after this act, this document, Mr. Milosevic. I don't think that Mr. Karadzic considered Serb units to be paramilitaries. It is the Muslim civilian population here of an unarmed, empty-handed population. They considered that to be paramilitary organisations and that's where this is addressed to, because this was a forerunner. This preceded at, I would say, the best time to undertake preparations for ethnic cleansing in Gacko which began on the ²⁷⁷⁹⁹ 17th of July of this same year, 1992.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. 1122. I really -- I've really heard a lot of things here, but can you really deduce from this document which states that the actions of paramilitary formations are to be established in the municipalities of Gacko and Nevesinje and you precisely said that there were no Muslim paramilitary formations, that this, in fact, refers to the Muslim and not to all paramilitary formations and that this, in fact, was addressed as an in -- as a set of instructions for ethnic cleansing. What are the grounds that you're able to state that on because you read it from start to finish? I read it out to you both these two points.

A. Well, this order is quite clear. I can see what it says, but I think that it is actually intended in quite a different direction, because I don't think that anybody looking around that -- that they would go on providing logistic support and support generally and be a component part of the armed forces unless that was the case. But one -- what was afoot here was that you had to invent an enemy and that there were Muslims somewhere.

JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. There is an objection from Mr. Groome. Yes, Mr. Groome.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would query the witness's ability to deal with the order. The order does refer to an extensive report. I would ask that that be placed before the witness if it is so available so that he may be able to more properly comment on what it is.

JUDGE MAY: He can deal with this. Of course he can. He can look ^{27800 BLANK PAGE 27801} at it and he's made his comments on it. Now, Mr. Milosevic, your time is coming up. You've got two minutes left.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I should like to ask you to extent my time a little because I can't complete my cross-examination of this witness within the space of two minutes

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Very well. What we'll do is this. We will take the break now. We will then give you ten minutes more and conclude the witness then.

Do you want this document exhibited, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. It will be given the next D number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 202, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Witness B-1122, you've heard there is another ten minutes cross-examination. There may be a few more minutes, a few more questions after that. Could you remember not to speak to anybody during this break until your evidence is over. Don't speak to anybody about it. Very well. We will adjourn now

--- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 1122, please give brief replies to my questions because we have very little time. ²⁷⁸⁰² Is it true that General Perisic at that meeting agreed to your proposal that in order to protect the civilians joint patrols had to be established composed of one Muslim, one Serb, and one JNA soldier?

A. Yes.

Q. And for paramilitaries to withdraw from the municipality? You even made a joint statement about that. Is this correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that several hundred Serbs gathered in front of the police station and that the JNA practically saved you on that occasion?

A. Mr. Milosevic, Perisic promised this but it was never implemented, and --

Q. I didn't hear you properly. What did you say?

A. General Perisic promised these joint patrols but this was never actually implemented. It was just an empty promise. As for the arrests you mentioned on the 1st of June, it's true that in front of the police administration while the negotiations were going on there were several hundred people present. These were reservists, not paramilitaries. They were shooting in the air, drinking, running amok, and the Muslim negotiators were under enormous pressure.

Q. And did the army save you on that occasion?

A. The army wasn't there.

Q. But nothing happened?

A. Well, that's when the arrests began, and they continued.

Q. Tell me, is it true that on the 16th of April, 1992, you sent a message on behalf of the Muslim people of Gacko to the Territorial Defence ²⁷⁸⁰³ Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina where you say: "That the Muslim people of the municipality of Gacko on the day the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina was established were put under command of that institution and please count on our full contribution and participation and all the tasks you entrust to us." Is this correct?

A. I'm not familiar with this document.

Q. So it's not correct?

A. What I'm saying is I'm not aware of the document. I'm not saying it's the not true, but I am not aware of this document.

Q. Very well. Is it true that in May 1992 sabotage was carried out in the thermonuclear -- thermoelectric plant?

A. No.

Q. And it was perpetrated by Zijad Mehic according to the investigation who destroyed a conveyer belt.

A. It was not sabotage. I do know that a belt was damaged but not due to sabotage.

Q. And did this Mehic then flee to Fazlagica Kula near Gacko?

A. He didn't flee there, he lived there. It's the village of Kljuic.

Q. Is it true that the attempts of the organs of law and order to bring him in were -- ended in shooting?

A. This is not correct. There was a patrol of some 20 armed men who went to that village purportedly to arrest him, but it was then that the shooting on Gacko started. So it's not true that they went to arrest him and that they were shot at. That's not true.

Q. Is it true that in the meantime the Muslim part of the population ²⁷⁸⁰⁴ withdrew to Fazlagica Kula and Borac?

A. Borac, yes that's true and one part remained in the town of Gacko. Mostly intellectuals who thought that nothing would happen, that they owed nothing to anyone and that nothing would happen. Later they were rounded up with their families, separated off, and atrocities were committed against their families.

Q. Is it correct that at the time you're testifying about you had about 1.500 armed men in your ranks?

A. No, we didn't have any kind of formation either armed or unarmed. We lived -- we simply lived in the forests, in the woods, but we weren't organised.

Q. Well, as you weren't organised or armed, as you say, and I have information that the 1.500 men under arms who perpetrated the terrorist attack on the village of Zaborani in Nevesinje municipality on the 28th of June.

A. This is not true. As for Gacko municipality, I'm hearing this for the first time, and I'm certain that this is not true.

Q. Do you know that six Serbs were killed on that occasion? Do you remember that? Even a 90-year-old man called Milan Milovic [phoen], and Asanka Milovic [phoen], aged 80?

A. What village?

Q. Zaborani, near Nevesinje.

A. That's a different municipality, I don't know about that. This is the first time I've heard of it. I don't think that's true.

Q. It's your neighbouring municipality? ²⁷⁸⁰⁵

A. Yes.

Q. So these fighters weren't there at the time?

A. No.

Q. There was no fighting between the Serb and Muslim forces around Fazlagica Kula?

A. No, there was no fighting, but the Muslims when the village was attacked, yes, there were men who had some weapons, some hunting weapons, but there were very few of these weapons. I don't think anyone had military weapons. And they did return fire, but this was so insignificant and while the families were fleeing to Bjelasnica, the civilians were running off to the mountain of Bjelasnica.

Q. What do you know about the Gatacki Battalion of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and its formation?

A. Nothing. The Gatacki Battalion -- I apologise, yes. This was established, I think, on the territory of Mostar, after we were expelled from Gacko to Mostar.

Q. And this Gatacki Battalion, was it not formalised on the 3rd of November, 1992, according to an order, and wasn't it part of the Mostar brigade?

A. This is military information. I know that in Mostar there was a Gatacki Battalion, but I don't know anything else about it.

Q. And when was this Gatacki Battalion set up?

A. It was formed in Mostar when we were expelled, and when we arrived in Mostar that's where it was set up. I don't know the date.

Q. Are you trying to say that there were no armed Muslim formations ^{27806 BLANK PAGE 27807} on the territory of Gacko at the time you are testifying about?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Is it correct that this independent battalion of the Muslims of Gacko was called Sargan?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. So first it was called Sargan and then it became part of the Mostar brigade by decision of the Supreme Command of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. When was it set up as Sargan?

A. I told you; when we arrived in Mostar, when they came to Mostar, the free territory.

Q. It was called Sargan earlier, before they came to Mostar.

A. No. It didn't exist before at all.

Q. Very well. Is it correct that the conflict in your area was a conflict between the Serbian units from the area and the Muslim units from the area?

A. There was no conflict. There was persecution. We -- that is, the Muslim side didn't have anything to fight with, nor did we want a conflict. We were simply saving our lives. There was a total of 3.800 civilians, including women, children, elderly.

Q. In paragraph 39, you say that you -- the women and children were left in the Muslim villages and that the men tried to break through. How could they have tried to break through if they didn't have weapons?

A. They were retreating. I don't know. I'm not a military person, I don't know what "breaking through" means. They were hiding. But this is correct. These villages were on the territory of Kalinovik municipality. ²⁷⁸⁰⁸ When we crossed Zelengora, going in the direction of Olovo, that's when what it says here happened. Yes, this is correct.

Q. Who organised the departure of the Muslims, large number of Muslims from Gacko?

A. It was self-organised. Everybody was fleeing, trying to save themselves.

Q. Were there any problems? According to my information, there were very moving scenes and neighbours weeping, Serbs and Muslims, when they were separating, saying farewell.

A. This was not as theatrical as you described, but there were very positive examples of Serbs helping certain families, friends of theirs. Yes, this did happen. It was very positive.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time is now up, but you can ask one more question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Were there very many examples of good relations between Serbs and Muslims in Gacko, and that nobody forced the Muslims to leave Gacko?

A. No, Mr. Milosevic. They were forced to leave Gacko. Gacko has among the largest numbers of casualties. Five per cent of the population was killed or wounded. There were many positive -- or some positive examples but not too many.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay. Questioned by Mr. Kay: ²⁷⁸⁰⁹

Q. Witness, just dealing with matters that Mr. Milosevic raised a moment ago, did you, as a prominent member of the SDA in your area, help to organise the Muslims from leading -- leaving the territory?

A. To be quite honest, I was not as prominent a person as you seem to think. I think that there was general chaos and that people were simply attempting to save their lives. I don't think it was organised.

Q. In relation to the earlier decisions by the SDA not to respond to the mobilisation call for the JNA during the war in Slovenia, was that a decision that was made on a political level by your party?

A. You see, when the attack on Slovenia and Croatia began, the so-called Yugoslav army, which had become the army of one nationality, there was an inter-party agreement between the SDA and the SDS, and it was then that we agreed that the Muslims of Gacko would not join the war. It was not their war. We would only defend ourselves with all the people who wanted to live in the municipality when our municipality was attacked. That was it. I think the SDS has this document. Our representatives were unable to take these documents with them when they were fleeing.

Q. So there was a mobilisation call that went to all citizens, but citizens who were a member of your party, the SDA, did not respond to that call.

A. You see, this was a call for the reservists of the Gatacki Battalion. I don't know whether it was a battalion or brigade on the territory of Gacko. This existed before the war, and it was a reserve unit which had exercises. There were Bosniaks.

I think at that one or two men did respond. The party didn't tell ²⁷⁸¹⁰ people they had to go or that they shouldn't go. Everyone could decide for themselves as they saw fit.

Q. But in your statement, and I'm looking at paragraph 9, it says: "We discussed the mobilisation call in this manner and made a recommendation that SDA did not have to answer the mobilisation call." So it seems on a political level you were telling the people who supported you that this was something that could be avoided. And in paragraph 10, you state: "More mobilisation calls were issued, but we managed to avoid joining in the call-ups."

So the question is this: Didn't you, your party, and you were a member of that party, create the condition whereby your people did not assist the JNA, did not involve themselves? You were creating the conditions about which you then complained.

A. You see, in paragraph 9 it says: "In May or June of 1991, before the war in Slovenia started, SDS organised the first mobilisation of reserves. SDS and SDA had separate party commissions and then came together." So we met. The commissions did, that is. "To make a joint decision acceptable to all." And we agreed that the Muslims would not join the war. This was between the SDS and SDA, and everything was based on this document, everything that happened later.

Q. How do you deal with then that which is said in paragraph 10: "More mobilisation calls were issued, but we managed to avoid joining in the call-ups."

That gives an impression that on a national level, there was a request for you to be involved, members of your party, but you were ²⁷⁸¹¹ avoiding committing people to the service of the JNA.

A. You see, there was a war, and nobody felt like going to war if they could put it off. And the JNA at that party -- at that time represented a single nationality.

Q. Just dealing with the political meetings that were happening at this time, and I'm looking at paragraphs 5 and 6 of your statement. You mention SDS meetings, but would it be also right to say that your party, the SDA, were also holding local meetings?

A. The SDA party was established in Gacko on the 1st of September in the town, on a field. We went neither to a church nor to a mosque, because our aspirations were democratic. And this was the way we worked. We did not hide behind any religious or other institutions.

Q. So the answer to the question is this: Is yes, your party, the SDA, was also holding meetings.

A. Yes. This was the constituent meeting. We didn't organise events. We had our internal structure. We had sessions, but the only public meeting was the meeting at which the party was founded, the constituent meeting.

Q. So those meetings that your party was holding, they were meetings that were only open to those members of the SDA; is that right?

A. No, no. Anyone who wanted could -- wanted to could attend.

MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

MR. GROOME: No re-examination, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1122, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free ^{27812 BLANK PAGE 27813} to go, but would you wait until the blinds have come down.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, while we're in closed session --

THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

MR. NICE: I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. May we go into private session very briefly for two matters.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the next witness, who went by the number C-028, is going to give evidence in open session. A summary of evidence was taken from her when she was last here on an occasion when the evidence couldn't be given, the accused being unwell. A copy of that was served, both in English and in B/C/S, on the accused last week or before -- two weeks ago. The witness returned yesterday and signed the B/C/S version subject to one correction, I'm sure a small correction, as an accurate account. We make the same application that I explained I would make in respect of all witnesses, and provided the documents to the Chamber I think yesterday for consideration, namely that her evidence in chief may to such extent as the Chamber thinks appropriate be covered by her adoption of the signed summary.

JUDGE MAY: This is the first of this application that we have known. Also we have not had the opportunity yet of thoroughly looking at ²⁷⁸¹⁷ this document. Is there any part of the document which deals with the accused himself?

MR. NICE: Yes, there are several parts. Indeed, it's probably better to say many parts. I can identify for you paragraph numbers where he's dealt with specifically with ease. It's paragraphs 2, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and then there's quite an extensive passage starting at paragraph 16 and going on to paragraph 22 where his -- in fact going on right over to paragraph 25, which is an account of support, and his name features, the accused's name or identity, features specifically in paragraphs 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 25. So that one way of dealing with that passage of evidence would be, if the Chamber thought it appropriate, to take the summary of events without reference to the accused from the summary itself but to get her to give all the detail that she is of the accused's direct knowledge of those matters.

The accused then features in paragraphs 26 and 27. Over the page in paragraph 7 [sic] at the foot of paragraph 29, and paragraphs 33, 34, and 35, 38, 41, 42, and is mentioned again in paragraph 48.

MR. KAY: 50 and 51.

MR. NICE: 50, 51 and 53, I think. Thank you, Mr. Kay.

JUDGE KWON: Can the -- sorry. I wonder the date when the accused was served with this document, be confirmed by the amici or the accused.

MR. NICE: The accused and amici each had it two weeks ago and the precise date is coming from Ms. Dicklich, I think, and it went in both English and B/C/S. English was two weeks ago, I don't have the precise date, and the B/C/S was a week and a half ago, I think. I can get -- ^{27818 BLANK PAGE 27819}

JUDGE MAY: I'm concerned about the book which I see is here.

MR. NICE: I'm not asking for her to produce the book by going through it. The importance and significance of the book includes that everything that she's saying is contained within the book. The document that's been not only available for general comment and challenge but has been specifically adopted by Minister Simovic who features, of course, extensively in her evidence. And there's a document at the end of your exhibits signed by him effectively acknowledging, as she will say in evidence, that he reviewed and checked for accuracy what she had said.

JUDGE MAY: I'm concerned about the principle of admitting these books. I am not happy about the notion of a whole mass of information coming in in this way. And speaking for myself, I would not admit it. If there is some relevant part of the witness's evidence which she wishes to refer to to the book, then the passage may be admissible, but the notion of just introducing a whole book written by somebody else seems to me to be wrong in principle.

MR. NICE: This book's written by her, but --

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. I'm mistaken. Yes. Very well, if it's written by her, of course it's a different position, but again, we need to be sure that we just get the relevant parts in.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't disagree. Can I respectfully suggest that one reviews the position at the end of the cross-examination, because, in a position like this, if a witness gives evidence sourced in a book but isn't taken to the book to challenge or for further passages, then the book really isn't going to add materially to the witness's ²⁷⁸²⁰ evidence and we wouldn't want to seek to burden you with it. But can I also respectfully suggest we deal with it on a case-by-case basis because there may be other witnesses of a different type who produce books and it maybe sensible to work on that basis.

JUDGE MAY: That seems a sensible way to go on with it. We will then consider the book at the end of the evidence altogether and see how much of it we need put in.

We will consider the matter of admitting the statement under 89(F). Speaking for myself, I would think that it's right that the matter dealing with the accused should be given in full. Also any other matter which really we should hear and the accused should hear so that he understands the relevance of the document.

Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to caution you of one matter. Judging by what she says, there's no dispute that she worked on the book but that the book was -- went through a redaction by Mr. Simovic in its entirety, and she states that herself. So she doesn't say she wrote it herself alone but that her text was also revised by Minister Simovic. So that's what I'd like to point out and ask you to bear in mind in the proceedings.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We'll grant the application under Rule 89(F), subject to the evidence relating to the accused, any evidence relating to him to be given live.

MR. NICE: We're much obliged. May the witness come in. ²⁷⁸²¹

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: DOBRILA GAJIC-GLISIC

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. Your full name, please.

A. My name is Dobrila Gajic-Glisic.

Q. Ms. Gajic-Glisic, did you make a statement to officer -- to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and subsequently, while here in The Hague, has a summary of your evidence been made on 11 sides, in both English and B/C/S, that you have had a chance to review in detail including yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you check the B/C/S version for its accuracy, and did you sign the document yesterday to signify that it was indeed an accurate account in summary of evidence you can give?

A. Yes.

MR. NICE: May that document, please, be exhibited and given its own number.

THE REGISTRAR: 567, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: Have we received the signed version?

MR. NICE: It should be with you, I think. ²⁷⁸²²

Q. Ms. Gajic-Glisic --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Ms. Gajic-Glisic, the Trial Chamber has agreed to accept the signed summary as your evidence-in-chief subject to your dealing live and in sufficient detail with all matters that occur -- concern the accused himself, and so I shall be asking you to deal with matters focusing on what you can say about particular topics in relation to the accused. Do you follow?

A. Yes.

Q. To give some context for this thus abbreviated evidence, is it right that following experiences that you cover in your summary, did you write a book about these events and other matters?

A. Yes, I did write a book called The Serbian Army, Srpska Vojska, first published in 1992 in August. Before that, I also published a series of ten articles in a magazine -- a weekly magazine called Nin.

Q. That book, which is not going to be exhibited at the moment to the Judges, they won't be taking it away with them, but that book which is available to the accused and the amici for reference purposes, was it checked as to its content for accuracy by a man called Simovic, of whom we will be hearing in due course?

A. That book and all the notes from the defence minister's cabinet were written following my work assignment and orders from General Tomislav Simovic. As we concluded our work period, General Simovic checked the exactitude of my notes, handwritten notes, and I have all these ²⁷⁸²³ handwritten notes with me. He also checked through the first printing of the texts of the book The Serb Army, the proofs.

Q. When you say "checked," did he check in the sense of saying that they were accurate or draw to your attention errors or changes that he thought were required to be dealt with?

A. Both. There weren't many errors, just some slight ones, and he put those right. And if Their Honours would like to take a look at the documents, I have them with me.

Q. Thank you. We'll do that if and only if it becomes necessary, I'm sure.

I'm now going to take you chronologically through events. Paragraph 2, and we can deal with this very briefly in light of the fact that the summary is before the Judges as evidence. Did you suffer difficulties at work in May of 1989 and subsequently, and following that, did you go to Belgrade with somebody called Moma Brkic, and did he take you to see the accused?

A. Yes, I did have some problems, mostly for my writings and my opinions and disagreement with my work environment while I was working as --

Q. I'm going to interrupt you because all this material is before the Judges, so having told us that you were taken to see the accused, just tell me this: To whom did the accused then refer you?

A. Mr. Moma Brkic, who was the editor of Komunist of which I was a correspondent, took me to an office, actually directly to the offices of the president, Comrade Slobodan Milosevic, and Comrade Milosevic invited ^{27824 BLANK PAGE 27825} Kertes and Kertes called Radmilo Bogdanovic. It was thanks to the assistance given me by Comrade Slobodan Milosevic at that point in time that I was able to overcome many of my difficulties, and to the present day I think that I am alive thanks to Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, and this is an occasion for me to express my gratitude and say thank you to him.

Q. Very well. Let's move on now to paragraph 5 in the summary. You don't have the summary before you, but you no doubt can if you would like to have it there, but I want you to help just from your recollection of events.

You became the chef de cabinet to Minister Tomislav Simovic?

A. Yes.

Q. He told you make a record of events that were happening, and this is all in the last quarter of 1991. Did he explain to you and just in a sentence, please, Ms. Gajic-Glisic. Just in a sentence, what did he say to you why you should keep a record of events?

A. May I answer in more than one sentence?

Q. Very brief for the moment.

A. I went to see Mr. Tomislav Simovic, thinking that General Jokic was there, and that I could complain of the problems I was having in Cacak --

Q. I'm going to interrupt you. This material is before the Judges. They know the history because they can read it. Could you please just explain very briefly what the reason was that Tomislav Simovic gave for why you should record events that were happening?

A. General Simovic said that he didn't agree with the policy being ²⁷⁸²⁶ pursued by the President of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic, and that because people born in Serbia were being mobilised and called to attend military training and then were being sent to war areas, the theatre of war, and that war laws were not being respected and that he as a general and as a man could not take this. He did not agree with it. And he wanted to see all the measures of preparation and emergency being respected for a state of emergency, that urgent measures were to be introduced faced with an emergency situation, and then only once that had been done could people be to where the action was.

Do you want me to explain in greater detail?

Q. No. That will do. You've set out at the foot of paragraph 5 one of his observations which doesn't relate to the accused, and so I can read it. He also said that, "the current events in Yugoslavia would be something the whole world would prosecute us for." Is that correct?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Thank you. That's fine.

A. I would like to explain, please. Mr. Simovic --

Q. I'm sorry. You're going to have to be guided by me because it may be these matters will come up in cross-examination, but we must move on to paragraph 6.

Simovic had been appointed to become Minister of Defence of Serbia. You learnt from him and all your dealings in his office who appointed him and with what objective. Can you tell us, please, who appointed Minister Simovic and then tell us what the purpose of his appointment was? ²⁷⁸²⁷

A. General Simovic was the commander of the 3rd Skopje Army District, and according to what he told me, he was called upon by General Kadijevic to go to Serbia for an urgent meeting and that he was supposed to talk to President Milosevic in order to be appointed to the post of Minister of Defence of Serbia. General Simovic took over duties from General Jokic post haste and directly pursuant to our rules the minister is appointed by the president of -- or, rather, the Prime Minister of Serbia who was in Zelenovic, and it was okayed by the Assembly. General Simovic was officially appointed to the post of minister, Minister of Defence of Serbia on the 26th of September at an Assembly meeting of the Assembly of Serbia.

Q. What, if anything, did the accused tell him was to be his principle function, and what, if anything, did the accused tell him about the publicity to be associated with this function or not?

A. General Simovic told me that his first and foremost task was to work on the draft law for the armed forces of Serbia. The constitution of Serbia had already been adopted several months prior to that, and pursuant to that constitution all the laws were supposed to have been passed by the 31st of December, 1991. As General Simovic told me, the law governing the armed forces was to be worked on secretly and quickly. And this was to perform the backbone of the Serb army, which was to be composed of volunteers and that the Yugoslav People's Army was to be disbanded and transformed to become the Serbian army.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, there are several exhibits to be produced. I think they are before you in a file. May be the file be given a number? ²⁷⁸²⁸ We know that the largest item is likely to be withdrawn at the end of the day. May the bundle as it stands at the moment with its tabs be given --

THE REGISTRAR: 568, Your Honour.

MR. NICE:

Q. And if we can look very briefly at tab 1 for the highlighting which will assist the Chamber. You can see in tab 1 of Exhibit 568 in a newspaper article three highlighted passages. The first reads and it comes from your Minister: "The JNA as the foundation --" this is on page 1 if you can find it in the hard copy, about 6 lines down -- "The JNA as the foundation of our armed forces engaged the Territorial Defence units as well and has until now been in the function of protecting the population of the Serb borderlands through its combat activities." If we go to the second page, towards -- second column, I think it may be, but the second page of the English version. The following: "It is clear that through the transformation of our existing armed forces, the JNA before all, and within the context of the outcome of the Yugoslav crisis, the answer to something called the Armed Forces of the Republic of Serbia is to be found."

The third highlighted passage on page 3 reading: "It is difficult to accurately determine --" if the Chamber -- if it can't come up on Sanction it's on page 3 of 5, it's in the middle of the page, just above the bolded subheadline. "It is difficult to accurately determine the exact numbers of volunteers at the time being since there are multiple ways of volunteering and the assignment of volunteers. However, it is sure that they are the framework of deployed troops at the time being ²⁷⁸²⁹ alongside the conscripts and soldiers doing their military service in the JNA."

And just yes or no, please: Does that newspaper article of an interview with your minister reflect what you've just said about the functions in which he was engaged?

A. He gave this interview I think to Mr. Ivica Dacic who was sent to our cabinet directly from the cabinet of President Milosevic, and these sentences have been extracted from the context of the entire text. I think in the spirit of our language, you have to look at the entire paragraph for the whole text. However, the answer is yes.

Q. Thank you. Paragraph 10 of the summary. You having organised that your minister issue a press release, did your minister then have to go to see the accused; and if so, tell us, please, what you learnt about that meeting.

A. Could you please explain your question?

Q. You were ensured by persuasion of Simovic that there should be a press release. Following the press release, did Minister Simovic go to see the accused; and if so, what did you learn the accused had said to him?

A. Do you mean the information about the bill on the armed forces of Serbia?

Q. Yes, I do.

A. If this is the information you want, I considered that everything that was not published or written down would be as if it had never happened. That's why I wrote down this information about the beginning of ^{27830 BLANK PAGE 27831} the drafting of the bill on the armed forces of Serbia, and Minister Simovic went to see President Milosevic in order to report to him about how and why this information reached the press.

As far as I can recall, President Milosevic thought that this information had been issued by Buda Kosutic, the Deputy Prime Minister, because he was the one who most frequently had contacts with the media at the time. And Mr. Simovic told me, "We have created an unfortunate situation for Buda, because President Milosevic has blamed him and he is not to blame." In fact, I was to blame.

Q. Did the accused indicate whether he favoured publicity and whether there were to be more press releases about your work?

A. As far as the minister told me, President Milosevic said that this was to be worked on secretly and that no information was to be given to the media about the law on the armed forces of Serbia.

Q. The transcript refers to Buda Kosutic in one place. I think the name that you've given is "Budimir." Is that correct?

A. Budimir Kosutic, who at that time was the Deputy Prime Minister of Serbia. I think he was a university professor, and he was a very important person at the time.

Q. Paragraph 12. On the 12th of December -- paragraph 11. On the 12th of December of 1991, was there supposed to have been a debate by the government of Serbia on the adoption of the draft law on the armed forces?

A. Yes. We agreed with President Zelenovic that the draft bill on the armed forces of Serbia should be presented to a narrow circle of the cabinet and that it should be discussed at a cabinet session. ²⁷⁸³²

Q. Did you learn, from the accused's secretary on this occasion, of events that happened in the accused's cabinet?

A. Before the beginning of the session, the secretary of Mr. Milosevic's cabinet, Mira, called me up and said, "Dobrila, don't give any information to the media about the draft bill on the armed forces of Serbia because this could be a big problem. General Panic has just rushed in in full war gear with his suite to see Mr. Milosevic, and solutions will follow very soon."

Q. What did you discover about those solutions? What happened consequent on Panic's arrival in that way?

A. I didn't take this secretary Mira so seriously, and I didn't tell General Simovic about this right away. When he got back from the cabinet session, he came back very quickly, and he said, "Zelenovic has resigned." I said, "How could he have resigned?" And he said, "He explained, explained, he made a brief statement in one or two sentences that he distributed, saying he was resigning, and none of us ministers knows what this is all about." So I asked Minister Simovic, "Well, what does it mean?" And he said, "Well, it means that the government has fallen." I said, "How has it fallen?" And he said, "Well, the government has fallen and all of us with it." And then I said, "Do you know what the secretary of President Milosevic told me? She said that General Panic rushed in to see President Milosevic and that solutions will follow very soon." General Simovic then said, "Oh, God. Do you know what this means?" I said, "General, what does it mean?" He said, "This means that General Panic has just committed a coup d'etat." "What sort of coup d'etat?" I ²⁷⁸³³ said. And he said, "It's coup d'etat."

Q. In the event - and this is in December - was Simovic himself replaced following these events by General Marko Negovanovic?

A. Yes.

Q. So that your period of time with Simovic was from September until the 12th of December, as your summary makes clear, you staying on in the office until mid-January 1992.

A. Yes.

Q. Now turning to another topic, the relationship between Simovic and the accused, paragraphs 12 to 15. During your time in this office, with what frequency did Simovic speak to the accused?

A. As far as I can remember, General Simovic talked to President Milosevic almost every day. I say "almost every day" because there were days when he talked to him several times, more than once, but there were other days when he didn't talk to him at all. And I can tell you the exact days when he did not talk to him.

Q. Your records, if that becomes necessary, I'm sure they can be looked at.

Did Minister Simovic have information about what was happening on the battlefield reported to him? And if the answer to that question is yes, can you tell as to what degree he passed that information on to the accused?

A. The information about what was happening in the battlefield came from various sources. These were few and far between, and they were often incomplete. They arrived from people who came to the cabinet to complain ²⁷⁸³⁴ to us. We received the most information from the staff of Vojislav Seselj. We also got information from Mr. Zoran Sokolovic, who was a minister, and from time to time we got information from General Aco Vasiljevic. All important information that required a speedy response were immediately transmitted to President Slobodan Milosevic.

Q. Information coming from the battlefield, did that include information about heroic deeds of volunteers but also information about such events as looting?

A. Most of the pieces of information were about the heroic deeds of volunteers protecting the lives of the Serbian population in the war-affected areas, liberating the sick and the wounded from the areas. There was terrible information about children locked up in barracks in Croatia, but there was also information pertaining to various kinds of looting, looting of both Serbian and Croatian houses.

Q. When Minister Simovic went to see the accused, and indeed when he went to the government, did he act entirely and always on his own initiative with and his own opinion or was he to any extent subordinate to the opinions of the accused?

A. When Minister Simovic went to see President Milosevic, it was mostly because he was called from the cabinet of President Milosevic. The general would put on his cap, and we would usually have a brief -- no, already prepared as to all the things he was to tell President Milosevic about. And most often he came back from President Milosevic's cabinet very nervous.

Q. Did you once see him in the accused's cabinet and see the dynamic ²⁷⁸³⁵ of the two men, how they were positioned and so on?

A. I often disagreed with the president, that is, with my minister, my boss General Simovic. I would say to him, "Why didn't you tell Comrade Milosevic this or that? Why didn't you tell him such things?" And I said to him [as interpreted], "Well, he's my president. I can't address him the way you address people, Dobrila, you tell everyone everything to their faces." And I said, "I will tell him everything you can't tell him." And he said, "Well then, you come with me." I accompanied the general intending to stand before Mr. Milosevic and tell him all the things I was writing about and everything I wanted to tell him. When we reached the door, President Milosevic's door, the general went in, he was wearing his uniform. He went in first, and President Milosevic was sitting on a chair. I think he was smoking at that moment. The general stood at attention and Goran Milinovic arrived. He was the chef de cabinet of Mr. Milosevic, and he stood next to me and he said, "We're going to my office. We will talk to each other as one chef to another." And General Simovic was expecting me to come in after him, but it wasn't possible. I had to go to the office of the chef de cabinet of President Milosevic and I talked to him.

Q. Very well. As between the minister and the president, did you see anything approaching an equality of status in the time you saw them together or was there and inequality and a manifest inequality of status?

A. Well, the president was the president, and General Simovic always said that he had to respect his president. General Simovic stood at attention in his general's uniform while the president was sitting down. ²⁷⁸³⁶

Q. Very well. Very well. Let's move on. Did you become aware of things that you thought were outside the general's jurisdiction, and one of them to do with the retirement of generals?

A. General Simovic, in fact, had no powers at all. I used to say he didn't even have the powers of an accountant. The Minister of Defence was a minister without an army, a minister with no authority. He had two assistants who were appointed by the government and who had areas they were in charge of. Minister Simovic contacted mostly the Serbian Assembly after receiving approving from President Milosevic and after going to see President Milosevic. Simply Minister Simovic could do absolutely nothing on his own initiative, nor could he make any decision. I didn't understand this. I had far greater powers as the chief of the observation and information service than the minister did in the Serbian cabinet.

Q. Then let's just go back, end of paragraph 13, to this business of the retirement of generals on grounds, I think, of incompetence. What passed between the accused and Minister Simovic in relation to this?

A. As General Simovic told me, President Milosevic asked General Simovic to make a list of incompetent generals and to prepare lists for their pensioning off. I asked the general how he intended to do that when he had no authority in this respect, and why didn't he tell the president that. And he said, "Well, my president probably knows." And I said, "Why do you say he knows that?" He said, "He's always asking me to pension off incompetent generals and to draw up lists, and I don't know who to apply to or how to do this, nor can I do it."

Q. Moving on to another topic, support for volunteers, which is ²⁷⁸³⁷ covered in your summary extensively between paragraphs 16 and 25. I want you --

JUDGE KWON: Just we go on, I'd like to hear from the witness what exact role she did have as the chef de cabinet, whether she can further elaborate on that.

MR. NICE:

Q. You've heard His Honour Judge Kwon's question?

A. Thank you. My role was to be always at the general's side, to make notes of everything that was happening, to draw up official notes, to report to President Milosevic about the official notes I had drawn up and typed up. I always took them to the door of President Milosevic's cabinet. Then my chief task, as I was also advisor to the Minister of Information, was to have contacts with the media. During the time I was the chef de cabinet, Minister Simovic gave about 200 interviews to the media at home and about 70 interviews to foreign journalists. Some of these interviews I attached to my report, and many of the interviews are still in my keeping. I have not preserved some of them, unfortunately, but I think they can be found. Apart from this, I contacted -- I had contacts concerning the procurement of equipment and materiel for volunteers, and this was perhaps my main task. I also had the obligation which was not part of my job description but had to do with my personal interests. I knew many directors of companies, so I would call them, ask them to provide buses for the volunteers to take them to the battlefield. One of the greatest and most terrible tasks I had was to provide buses so that mothers of ²⁷⁸³⁸ imprisoned soldiers who were then imprisoned in barracks and prisons in Croatia, and there were several tens of thousands of them, perhaps more, to provide transport for those mothers to go and see their sons in the prisons in Croatia. These were weeping women who asked to see their children, who would rush into the cabinet offices of Serbia. Their husbands went off as volunteers to fight in the battlefields only to save their children. Unfortunately --

JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Gajic-Glisic, that is more than enough. But do you mean that such procurement of buses or some logistic business was done by the minister himself?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did that.

JUDGE KWON: As a chef de cabinet?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE KWON: How many staff did you have at the time?

A. You mean how many members of the cabinet? There were three advisors, five typists, two or three technical secretaries.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Nice, I took it --

MR. NICE:

Q. On the 26th --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. Nice. Witness, you said that Mr. Simovic did not have much power. Indeed, you said you thought accountants had more power than he had. I'm not sure that accountants will care very much for that allusion, but can you tell me, if he did not have the power, where did the power reside?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Unfortunately, as a general, ²⁷⁸³⁹ his military duty did not allow him to resign. He had to carry out the orders that were issued to him --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't say "resign." What I'm asking you is, in light of your comment that he didn't have much power and he was a minister, I'm asking you who had that power? Where did that power reside, not resign.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under our law on national defence, power that had to do with the defence of Serbia, the Territorial Defence and the SUP, was in the hands of President Milosevic, and I quoted this provision of the law in my statement, and I have the law here. It gives all power to the president of the republic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

MR. NICE: Paragraph 16. On the 26th of September, as you say in your summary, you learnt from a volunteer called Mira that weapons were being transported from Serbia to the conflict zones. I think on the 30th of September, Minister Simovic had a meeting with the accused. Can you help us, please, with what the accused then said in relation to volunteers of the Serbian army. Or volunteers generally, what they should do, what should happen.

A. Volunteers were supposed to be the backbone of the future Serbian army. It was to be above political parties, a national army for the defence of Serbian interests. When President Simovic [sic] got back from President Milosevic and he was very angry, he started dictating, and he said that President Milosevic had told me that a volunteer battalion of 1.200 volunteers was to be established, that additional volunteers were to ²⁷⁸⁴⁰ be mobilised for the war-affected areas, that means were to be found to assist the volunteers, that a list of generals to be pensioned off was to be drawn up, and I listed some other matters that I noted down. I still have them in my diary, and I think you have them here too.

Q. I can help you without breaking the rules of the Court, was anything said about training? Was anything said about elite units?

A. Training was already being carried out, and this was before the arrival of General Simovic, and there were centres for the training of volunteers, first in Knin and then in Erdut, and after that, some others were established in other places.

Q. Sorry. I'm going to stop you again. In respect of what the accused said to Simovic, was anything said about training by the accused to Simovic? Anything said about elite units but the accused to Simovic?

A. General Simovic told me that all these volunteers who were reporting to the notification centres were first to be sent to training centres for their training to be completed and updated. And when they were ready, they were to be sent to centres in Erdut in Knin, and from there they were to be sent on to the units of the Territorial Defence in war-affected areas.

Q. Did the accused say anything to Minister Simovic on this occasion about Goran Hadzic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is it, Mr. Milosevic? ²⁷⁸⁴¹

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I fail to understand the sense of asking this witness, who herself says was not present at any of these meetings, what I said. How can she testify about this? I don't understand.

JUDGE MAY: You know that hearsay is admitted here. You can ask any questions you want in cross-examination about it. Is that a convenient moment?

MR. NICE: Certainly.

JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. Ms. Gajic-Glisic, could you please remember during this adjournment and any others there may be not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Ms. Gajic-Glisic, before the adjournment we were dealing with what Minister Simovic said the accused had told him at that meeting on the 30th of September. There are only perhaps a couple more points I will trouble you with at the moment. Did the accused say anything to Minister Simovic about assistance to Hadzic?

A. Yes, that full support should be given to Goran Hadzic, the president of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Did he say anything -- ²⁷⁸⁴²

A. But he should be given full media support, too, and to introduce him to the information media and to give him material assistance and military assistance as well. But as President Milosevic said a moment ago, I really never actually heard that from President Milosevic, I am just telling you what General Simovic told me.

Q. Was anything said by the accused following this meeting on the 30th of September about the appointment of Radovan Stojicic as commander of the Territorial Defence in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

A. Yes, but I also heard a telephone conversation between President Milosevic and General Simovic, and in it they said or, rather, President Milosevic told General Simovic, "Well, once again there's a been a mix-up there in that Western Slavonia. Just imagine had Goran Hadzic appointed that man Radovan Stojicic as president of the Territorial Defence." And General Simovic, on that occasion when he told me that, he said that there was a mix-up and that Goran Hadzic had appointed Stojicic as commander of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Q. Before I go on to deal with the rest of your evidence about volunteers, let's go back to something I overlooked. You told us -- paragraph 14. You told us a little about Simovic's visits to the Serbian government and how he acted on the accused's orders and so on. Did he tell you anything about who else was present at meetings he had with the accused, Minister Simovic?

A. Your question is actually two questions. First, General Simovic very rarely went to meetings of the Serbian government. Usually it was General -- or, rather, he was Colonel at the day, Mladen Kovacevic, who ²⁷⁸⁴³ went to Serbian government meetings, or General Branko Kuzmanovic, depending on the different departments and depending on what the government was discussing on its agenda. On several occasions General Simovic attended a government session as well, and I went with him. I sat behind him to take notes, but very rarely.

As far as the second part of your question is concerned, General Simovic did go to see President Milosevic for the most part before going to attend Assembly meetings, meetings of the Assembly of Serbia. And he would always say to me that what we had prepared he had to read out at the Assembly and present a report to the Assembly, and that prior to doing so this had to be okayed by President Milosevic.

And I remember on one occasion, because of the good relationship and the gentlemanly behaviour of Vojislav Seselj, in my report which General Simovic was supposed to read out to the Assembly I wrote some very nice sentences about Vojislav Seselj, when --

Q. Sorry to interrupt you. Can I try to bring you back to the topic. It's my error for putting two questions in one, and I apologise. But at those meetings with the accused to which you have referred, were there other people present from time to time; and if so, who? Other members of government or other ministers?

A. General Simovic would tell me that usually at the meetings with President Milosevic it was individuals who would go, or the minister of the interior would go alone, Zoran Sokolovic, or sometimes together, General Jokic, commander of the Territorial Defence, but he would always say that present there was Mr. Radmilo Bogdanovic, he was always there, ²⁷⁸⁴⁴ whom General Simovic called the emminence grise. And during that time he would say nothing, he would give no advice, counselling, instructions or anything of the kind, but he was always present. That's what General Simovic said.

Q. I'm now going to move in summary through paragraph 17 to 25. Simovic was asked to buy equipment for volunteers when the national defence fund was empty, and in your summary you explain how you made contacts with financial experts, with Jezdimir Vasiljevic, and other people. As a result of certain meetings, and I want to deal with this in summary, were there arrangements made to purchase all sorts of equipment, binoculars, rifles, freight vehicles, Land Rovers, pistols, things like that? Just yes or no.

A. Please, binoculars have nothing to do with your question. No, rather, transmission lines have nothing to do with your question. I never mentioned long distance transmission lines. That is electrical engineering equipment. We didn't work with those. But what we had to do was to procure equipment for the volunteers and we needed -- because the funds for national defence were empty, the coffers were empty. And General Simovic, in coming back once from President Milosevic, said, "How can we ensure additional equipment and resources for the volunteers?" And I said, "General, let's call in the experts from the financial realm." And he said, "Which experts?" And I said, "I know an expert for whom I believe to be a great expert. His name is Ljubivoje Sundic and he was the financial director of the Centrotextil [phoen] company." And he told me to call him, and I did call him, and Ljubivoje said, "But I have to speak ²⁷⁸⁴⁵ to my boss because I'm working in a privately owned firm now." And he came with Jezdimir Vasiljevic --

Q. Pause. The detail of this is all in writing and you've acknowledged its accuracy. And if we can move on, was there a meeting between Simovic and the accused about this on the 1st of October of 1991, and if so, what did Simovic tell you was the accused's response to the plans that you were making? Paragraph 18.

A. That morning, General Simovic went to inform President Milosevic about all the details from the meeting, the meeting that we held during the night. And he returned from the meeting and said that President Milosevic had said that a new account should be opened for assistance to the volunteers, and then Jezdimir Vasiljevic gave a cheque for dinars, a dinar cheque, which Mladen Kovacevic put on a new account which was opened and which later was used for the procurement from the Crvena Zastava enterprise for equipment and arms for the volunteers.

Q. And that cheque was roughly in how much? Can you remember? Paragraph 22, I think.

A. I saw the cheque. However, I don't remember the figure on it. It was said to be between 750 and 1 million German marks, the counter value in dinars, in the dinar denomination. That was the figure bandied about but I didn't actually see it.

Q. You set out the chronology of these meetings and I just want to ask a couple of details. Paragraph 21. Was there a plan at some stage involving carrying cash across a border in a suitcase?

A. Well, I wouldn't -- wouldn't put it that way exactly. There was ²⁷⁸⁴⁶ the need to procure helmets and flak jackets from abroad, bulletproof vests, and for that foreign currency was needed. Now, as there was no money in the accounts and as it was difficult to come by the money, we sought for ways and means of ensuring the foreign currency needed to pay for these goods abroad. Minister Zoran Sokolovic said, as Jezdimir did have the money, that a man from the state security by the name of Savic can take across the border cash in a suitcase which Jezdimir Vasiljevic would use to pay for the bulletproof vests and all the rest of it for equipment, and I underlined the word equipment, for the volunteers.

Q. Was the accused made aware of this part of the arrangement or plan? If so, what was his attitude towards it?

A. Judging by what was happening in our cabinet, President Milosevic was informed of all the details of what we were doing in the cabinet. And, as far as I know, he didn't prohibit it.

Q. So likewise, paragraph 20, when at some stage in the details you set out in your summary it was agreed that Jezdimir Vasiljevic would contact the Israeli State Security Service and if he failed, Dusan Matkovic would take over the negotiations. Was that something -- who was the Minister of Industry, was that something that was known to the accused?

A. When Jezdimir Vasiljevic went to Israel with Mrs. Klara Mandic to attend the exhibition which Mrs. Klara Mandic had organised in Israel, it was agreed at government level, at the level of President Milosevic, in fact, although I wasn't present, that Dusan Matkovic should go with them so that should anything happen to Jezdimir, Dusan Matkovic as Minister of ²⁷⁸⁴⁷ Industry could confirm the state of affairs, could confirm the exactness of the fact that we needed assistance from Israel, that that was true. You want more?

Q. No, not at the moment. Thank you. And I think following Vasiljevic's - this is paragraph 23 - return further efforts were made to obtain financing for weapons and money came from the Jugoskandik bank; is that right?

A. Well, the money for the procurement of weapons from the Crvena Zastava enterprise, that is to say, first and foremost from our own enterprises that engaged in weapons productions, came from different sources. First of all, it came from the National Defence fund, which was intended for that particular purpose. Then we got money from the large enterprises, large companies, and Jezdimir Vasiljevic helped too.

Q. Was the accused aware of this? Did he approve of it?

A. As far as they told me, he was informed of this and they did not tell me that he did not approve it.

Q. And finally, paragraph 25, because the rest -- the detail is covered in the summary. Were you aware of whether Jezdimir Vasiljevic sought to get anything from the accused in return for the assistance he gave?

A. Well, the first service for this was he wanted President Milosevic to receive him, and we insisted that President Milosevic should receive Mr. Jezdimir Vasiljevic. However, President Milosevic, they say, "Just us?" "Well who is that man? Who is the man?" Now, whether later on they had a contact of any kind and whether President Milosevic actually did ²⁷⁸⁴⁸ receive Jezdimir Vasiljevic, I can't say because I don't know. And furthermore, Jezdimir Vasiljevic asked that the governor, Atanackovic should put a stop to certain decisions passed by the National Bank of Yugoslavia with respect to his own bank, Jugoskandik, and Jezdimir Vasiljevic also asked that his own television station be opened, and he also had another requirement that the army should help the opening of his television station and I think that he turned up with a lawyer of his. I think later on --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... organisation and training of volunteers comes next, paragraph 26. You set out how there were different types of volunteers and under whose control they were, the Ministry of the Interior, the Serbian Territorial Defence, or the JNA and how there were volunteers of political parties.

Arkan's Tigers were under whom, under which body?

A. May I put you right on one point? The volunteers weren't under the defence -- Ministry of Defence of Serbia. It was only through the centre for information that we received all information with respect to the volunteers who had signed up at the centres for information which were within the composition of the Ministry of Serbia. So the volunteers were tied to the Territorial Defence first and foremost in places in which they were located. However, according to my information, there were several types of volunteers in fact. We had volunteers which were --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Arkan's Tigers under which body?

A. As to the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, according to what ²⁷⁸⁴⁹ Mr. Zoran Sokolovic told us, that is to say under the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia. Do you want -- need more?

Q. No. Did Sokolovic on any occasion say anything about criminals in Arkan's forces?

A. On one occasion he came and said that some criminals had been released from prison and that they had gone to the battlefield at Arkan's, with Arkan. Simovic was astounded and said "Well, who allowed this to happen? How can that happen? Is it possible?" And he just raised his shoulders and said, "Boss."

Q. To whom was he referring, in your experience, by reference to "boss"?

A. Well, I understood it to mean the president, but I'm not certain today who all the bosses over there were, actually.

Q. Now, was there a decree passed with the force of law to set up training centres for volunteers?

A. Yes. And that decree having the force of law pertaining to volunteers was passed before Simovic's and my appointment in the Ministry of the Defence. Minister Simovic showed me the decree at the very start of my work in the Defence Ministry, and I saw the decree in your offices, in the OTP, I mean, and I think that the decree had the force of law. I think it did. And I deeply believe that everything that was done with the volunteers and that we did with the volunteers was covered by our laws, and I believed in them --

Q. Did the accused --

A. -- and -- ²⁷⁸⁵⁰

Q. -- have anything to do with establishing this decree, to your knowledge and on the information coming to you?

A. I do believe that President Milosevic had to have known about a decree like that.

Q. The first training centres, I think you may have said, was under Vasiljkovic and the second under Arkan, and you set out in your summary what happened there. Can we just identify some documents in the same exhibit, 56 --

THE REGISTRAR: 567.

MR. NICE: 567. Thank you very much. I'm sorry not to have remembered.

THE REGISTRAR: 568.

MR. NICE: 568. I'm even further sorry.

Q. Tab 2. We look at it very briefly, please. This is a document you've reviewed, signed by Vasiljkovic under his name Dragan, which says, we can see it highlighted in English on the screen, in a letter dated the 8th of November, 1991, "I have the obligation towards the state security service of the Republic of Serbia, and my activities within the Territorial Defence have to be fully in accordance with the mentioned service."

Did that accord with your understanding of Vasiljkovic's performance of his function?

A. Minister Sokolovic insisted that Minister Simovic should receive Dragan Vasiljkovic, and he told us that he was their man, and the state security service organised a meeting in the Botic villa with Dragan ²⁷⁸⁵¹ Vasiljkovic, and we had information according to which he was an associate or employee of the state security service. Later on, according to what you've shown me, and I have a document myself signed by Dragan and which Dragan sent to the minister of defence of Serbia, in which contains this sentence.

Q. Tab 3 of 568 is a document you've reviewed which is the minutes of a meeting with Simovic where Dragan is present, and does that include on page 2 of 2 in the English, in the middle of the page, Vasiljkovic's history having been set out, him saying that, "The SDB invited him to our country. He collaborated with Stanisic and Radmilo Bogdanovic. He had an assignment to train volunteers and to work in cooperation with Babic."

A. Not Stojkovic, Stanisic.

Q. Did information about the training of volunteers of the kind you've set out get passed up the chain of command; and if so, did it reach the accused?

A. Information about training quite certainly went up the chain of command, up the hierarchy, and I said that Dragan Vasiljkovic was supposed to train volunteers at the proposal of Zoran Sokolovic and the rest of the ministers, Sainovic and I don't know who else, and there was great pressure being exerted that General Simovic should receive him. We had a meeting and he said that he was working for the state security service and that his assistants were in fact employees of the state security service and that he himself was undertaking the training with them and that he had responsibilities towards the state security service. And in my notebook I have in my own handwriting written down when Dragan Vasiljkovic is talking ²⁷⁸⁵² about the visit to Bor and the visit to Arkan when General Simovic asks him was that in Stanisic's production, and said yes and continued to talk about that.

Q. And this sort of information was passed up the management chain, as it were, to the accused?

A. Please, this Official Note was compiled by me. I attended the meeting and that Official Note I personally took to the cabinet of President Milosevic, but -- and I continue to claim that I just reached the door to his office.

Q. The next paragraphs don't concern the accused but if we can look very briefly at tabs 4 and 5. Is tab 4 a newspaper article you've reviewed which the first couple of lines of which reveal -- I don't have the date of this newspaper article at the moment, unless it's on the index. It's not. We ought to have the date of that. Perhaps you'll find it. But reveal that during only four days between the 25th and 29th of September, 1991, 1.377 volunteers reported to units of the JNA and the Territorial Defence.

And then in tab 5 of Exhibit 568, there is, in an article entitled "Red Star," on pages 3 of 7, a reference - and it's about a third of the way down, Your Honours - "Serbia has got a constitutional duty to protect the interests of Serbs out of administrative borders of the existing republic. It is performing this duty of its by engaging its military potentials, by deploying manpower in JNA units and by mobilisation of its composition within the JNA." Does that accord with what indeed you experienced? ²⁷⁸⁵³

A. Those texts relate to the end of September, more exactly, and the beginning of October. That means the period of time before the international community recognised the republics as independent states. Therefore, in my opinion, that was in conformity with our constitution and our laws at that time.

Now, as far as the number is concerned, 1.377 volunteers who signed up in the first three days via the notification centre, this is a piece of information collected by the notification centres, information centres with which I contacted, so I also have this information jotted down in my notebook now, and following approval by the minister, I further passed it on to the information media.

Now, the other text that you mentioned as being a five-pointed star, is the interview given by Serin Simic [phoen] to Zoran Bogavac, which was never actually published.

Q. We move on to the next topic, the relationship between the Ministry of Defence and Arkan. You set out a lot of it in detail in your summary but on the 3rd of October, did Arkan find himself surrounded in Vukovar, were steps taken to free him; and if so, what if any part did the accused play in that? But briefly.

A. We received information from Dusan Stupar, the Kum, and other people who were -- maintained contact with us that Arkan had remained within the encirclement in Vukovar, and I am sure that President Milosevic was informed about all the events. As far as General Simovic told me, President Milosevic had asked him to ask the air force to fly over Vukovar so that the volunteers who had stayed in the encirclement around Vukovar ²⁷⁸⁵⁴ would be able to pull out. And we spent 48 hours in the office at the time. General Simovic really did entreat the air force to fly over Vukovar, to have flights over Vukovar, to allow the volunteers who were in the encirclement together with Arkan to pull out and return alive.

Q. The following day, did Arkan appear at the government building?

A. Oh, yes, he did. Arkan appeared in the government building with Kum and on his shoulders he had a sniper rifle and an Ustasha cap on it, all covered in blood. I think they went to see General Milisav Djordjevic in working groups, and I asked them to go into General Simovic's office and to come in to see us, because we still hadn't left the ministry. We were still there waiting to see what would happened to them, and they didn't even inform us that they managed to free themselves and that they were actually arriving in the ministry building. And at the time, a brief meeting was held with them. That was the only meeting in actual fact --

Q. Was something said about the taking of prisoners by Arkan when he escaped from Vukovar?

A. You interrupted me just when I was about to say that this was the only meeting between Simovic and Arkan, and yes, General Simovic did ask him, among other things, "What do you do with prisoners?" And he said, "General, we have taken prisoner only two hens. As for the others ..." practically he said there were no prisoners. The general said, "How is it possible that there are no prisoners in war?" And he said, "General, we have no prisoners." Then he said that in the encirclement he had killed 24 Ustasha, that he had liquidated them. I was horrified, and he said, "Madam, leave the room if you can't bear to listen to this." And the ²⁷⁸⁵⁵ General said, "She's more -- there's more of a man in her than you think."

Q. And the witness, as the Court will recall, but for the sake of the record, gave the gesture of the hand across the throat attributing to that to Arkan.

Now, this account that was given and horrified, was that reported to the accused?

A. Yes. And General Simovic then swore that he would never again receive Arkan or have any further conversation with him, because he, as a general, could not talk to someone who was waging war without taking prisoners, that it was not possible to be on the battlefield without -- without having prisoners.

MR. NICE: If we can look at a very short clip, which is tab 6 of 568.

[Videotape played]

MR. NICE: Thank you.

Q. That observation by Arkan, does that match what he said in this meeting with Minister Simovic?

A. First I want to say that I have nothing to do with this videotape. I have never seen it before. And simply, Arkan said that there were no prisoners.

Q. Paragraph 35. On the 5th of October, did Dusanka Vorkapic from Sid and a local Serb Territorial Defence from Vukovar come to your ministry saying that the sewer system was being used by Croat forces as a shelter from which to attack Serbs; and if so, what did Simovic do about it? ²⁷⁸⁵⁶

A. A lady came to our cabinet dressed all in black who wouldn't introduce herself. When I insisted, she said her name was Dusanka Vorkapic, but she did not want her name to be published, ever. I am stressing this because to this day I don't know whether this is really her name. But she brought with her drawings or, rather, diagrams of the old sewage system which in Vukovar had been turned into shelters used by Ustasha, ZNG members, and all the paramilitaries who were in Vukovar and who always went out behind the volunteers and the army and liquidated large numbers of Serb soldiers and volunteers.

We were always very surprised, because --

Q. Can I --

A. -- we hadn't known about these old sewage canals.

Q. You realise a lot of this is in the summary and we take it briefly in order to save time.

I want you to move on from the account that Dusanka Vorkapic, if that was her name, gave to the resolution of the problem by Simovic. Did he ask the accused about this? Was a plan made?

A. General Simovic took these diagrams, and as he told me, he went to see President Slobodan Milosevic with them. When he got back from there, he said, "Dobrila, the president said that Arkan's volunteers were to be given the task of mining and stopping up these corridors with concrete, and that Badza should assist them with his units." I worked on this. I established contact with Arkan and Badza, and several years later, when I asked for protection for my life and the life of my family from President Milosevic, I wrote him an open letter which ²⁷⁸⁵⁷ was published in Nin, and this was very hard for me.

Q. Thank you. Party armies you deal with in paragraphs 36, -7, and -8 of your summary. I need only trouble you with one passage. You reported -- you prepared a report at one stage about Seselj's volunteers' courageous fighting, and did the accused give some instructions to Simovic about whether this should be presented to parliament or not?

A. I prepared a document for the Assembly in which I extolled Seselj and his fighters. I asked General Simovic to present this to the Assembly as a positive example. When I saw the report that General Simovic submitted to the Assembly, that part was missing. When General Simovic came back from the Assembly, I said to him, "Why didn't you put this forward? This is true. Every day we get reports from Mr. Seselj. Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you let everyone know about it?" And he said, "The president's orders. He said, Why should we extol him and praise him?"

Q. But I think on another occasion was help provided to Seselj when they were on the front line, and did the accused have any part in that?

A. Oh, that was before that. That was when Mr. Seselj asked for a helicopter to visit the fighters on the front lines. He asked for a helicopter from the Ministry of Defence. He wanted to fly to the front. I said we didn't have a helicopter and we couldn't give him one. And General Simovic said that I should give him Brovet's telephone number, and he said, "Brovet is not a Serb. He is a Serb traitor." I said, "Kadijevic." And he said, "No, Kadijevic is a Croatian cart-wright, I ²⁷⁸⁵⁸ don't want to talk to him." I said, "General Adzic?" And he said, "Very well. General Adzic is okay." After that, we followed Seselj's reports from the front line.

Q. Thank you. You deal with information about crimes in paragraphs 39 and 40. I needn't trouble you about that.

Paragraph 41. Did a UN representative or functionary called Marek Goulding come to Belgrade on the 18th of November of 1991?

A. Yes. He was a high under-secretary of the UN and the commander of UN forces at the time of the war and a big friend of General Slavko Jovic. He came to Belgrade, as we were told, in secret and had a meeting in a cafe with General Jovic one evening.

In the morning, we received intelligence information that General Jovic had talked to a very interesting man, but the security service was unable to record their entire conversation. They asked General Simovic to call General Jovic and ask him what this was all about. General Jovic, on receiving the invitation, came to our cabinet. In the meantime, General Simovic informed President Milosevic of the arrival of General Jovic to our cabinet, and as soon as General Jovic had arrived and President Hadzic was also there and several other people, President Milosevic was called by a special line from the cabinet, and General Slavko Jovic told President Milosevic about the details of their conversation of the previous night.

I was given the task of taking notes of this conversation or, rather, of what Slavko Jovic was saying.

Q. You made some notes. You were only hearing one part of the -- one ²⁷⁸⁵⁹ side of the conversation, but constructing it from what you could hear, what did the accused say to Jovic about the number of volunteers on the front lines?

A. Please, you misunderstood me. I heard both sides, because the speaker phone was on. But I was not authorised to write down what the president was saying or asking, but he kept silent for the most part. He just put a few questions and said a few sentences. I wrote down only what General Jovic was saying.

Q. What do you recall about what the accused told Jovic about the number of volunteers on the front lines and how they should be referred to?

A. General Jovic, who had been retired for a few years, I think, told President Milosevic that he had told Merak Goulding that there were about a thousand volunteers at the front line. To this President Milosevic replied, "There are about 500 paramilitaries." I think he used the words "paramilitary soldiers."

Q. And to that Jovic replied what?

A. "Oh, comrade president, I didn't know there were 500. I told him there were not more than a thousand."

Q. This can be found in tab 7 of 568, the minutes that you prepared of that meeting but only being authorised to write down, as it were, your side, and on page 3 of 9, a few lines up from the bottom we see this reply: "That I did not know. I did not know there were 500. I told him the number does not go over 1.000. We did not finish the conversation." To your knowledge, how many volunteers were there? ²⁷⁸⁶⁰

A. When they were asking for equipment and when they were asking for assistance, they always mentioned 6.000, 8.000. They asked for 8.000 helmets, 8.000 long-barrels, 2.000 -- it was always in thousands. And I'm saying this on the basis of what they were asking for by way of assistance.

As to how many of them there actually were, this is information that can be found in the notification centres, because the volunteers who went with the front line legally and who wanted to defend the imperilled Serbs in Croatia, they were registered in the centres for notification throughout Serbia.

Q. Paragraph 42 --

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, I note paragraph 40 also deals with some conduct of the accused receiving information from Mr. Simovic.

MR. NICE: Thank you very much, and I apologise for having missed that out. Yes.

Q. On information about war -- about crimes committed in war, did you have information coming about the Dusan Silni unit of Mirko Jovic and some other independent Chetnik groups?

A. We received from those who were returning from the front line and demonstrating in front of the government building, we received information from a large number of invalids who were sitting in front of the government building asking to be received, from mothers protesting because their sons were imprisoned in Croatian barracks. We received information that certain groups of volunteers were committing various crimes, and they were afraid that the Croats and the Ustasha would take revenge against ²⁷⁸⁶¹ their imprisoned sons for what these volunteer units were doing in the battlefield.

I must --

Q. Very well. Finish what you must say.

A. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for allowing me to finish. I only want to say that these units, Dusan Silni, the Paroski units, the units of a certain Mauzer who was said to be from the Democratic Party, that we had no connection with them. No one had any information as to how many of them there were, when they were going to the front, who was taking them there and how. And we in the ministry didn't have any information about them.

I want to say this, that there were also those on the battlefield who were not part of the system.

Q. Was this information about crimes committed by identified units passed to the accused?

A. General Simovic went to see President Milosevic regularly, and I trust that he transmitted all this to him.

Q. Paragraph 42. Was there an occasion when Simovic was supposed to appear on television with Arkan and his volunteers, but in the event somebody else appeared. If so, can you explain how -- how that happened?

A. I had agreed with Mr. Alimpijevic from Studio B to call representatives of the volunteers and of the government and invite them to speak about their participation in the legal systems and to put the volunteers on an equal footing with regular reservists and conscripts. It was agreed that General Simovic should make a TV appearance with groups of ²⁷⁸⁶² volunteers -- with a group of volunteers, rather, and their representatives.

Just before he was to set out to attend this meeting, Colonel Mladen Kovacevic entered the cabinet and said, "General, I'm going to the television station now. I received a call from President Milosevic, and he told me that I was to appear on television with the volunteers."

We kept silent. We just looked at him. He went off to the television, and we just sat down in front of the TV set and watched the broadcast. We were surprised, because Colonel Mladen Kovacevic with his strict military demeanour was saying that he had nothing to do with the volunteers, that they were paramilitaries, that we knew nothing about them, that we didn't know how many of them there were, and I will never forget General Fadjovic's [as interpreted] expression. "What's this?"

Q. You deal in your summary with coordination groups in the Ministry of Defence. You don't, I think, touch the accused particularly in that but just to give some context, as paragraph 45 reveals, the main task of coordination groups was to coordinate activities amongst the government of Serbia, the Territorial Defence, and the police forces of the autonomous regions and the army; is that correct? Just yes or no.

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And indeed, those regions in Croatia receiving legal, logistical, military, and financial support from the government of Serbia did so through all ministries of the government as your summary reveals; correct?

A. Yes, yes. ²⁷⁸⁶³

Q. Let's move briefly to Goran Hadzic. On the 29th of September of 1991, did your minister speak with the accused on the telephone, and following that, did you have to go to the prime minister's cabinet, Prime Minister Zelenovic, for a purpose connected with Hadzic?

A. This telephone conversation, no, I didn't hear it, but Minister Simovic told me that President Milosevic had said that I was to go to see President Zelenovic. Minister Zoran Sokolovic was there, and Goran Hadzic, Arkan, and Kum were with him. They told me that I was to introduce Goran Hadzic to the Serbian public, that we were to give him publicity, because he was the president and he was to represent the Serbs in The Hague.

I asked Goran Hadzic what he was president of, and he was unable to say anything. I didn't know how I was to introduce him to the media and what I was to say.

I called Zoran Bugavac, a journalist, and told him he was to teach. Goran Hadzic was the president of something and that he was to tell him what he was president of and what he was to talk about on the media and on radio. I called my former editor Momir Brkic and asked him to receive the representatives of the volunteer units and the representatives from the war-affected areas and that he was to introduce them to the public at the 3.00 broadcast which was a pre-time broadcast in Belgrade. And then he called me back and said to me, "Dobrila, ask the minister why he sent these criminals to my station. They have come in in full combat gear and scared everyone to death. What sort of criminals are they? Next time tell me who you're sending." ²⁷⁸⁶⁴ After that, they didn't say any -- they didn't ever say again that Goran Hadzic and Arkan were criminals.

Q. Did you explain to your contact, Momir Brkic, who had instructed that this man should be promoted over the television?

A. Of course, because how could I promote him without explaining it to him? But then he kept quiet and he went on working.

Q. Paragraph 49, dealing with the Krajina. Did Babic come to the MOD seeking assistance on a regular basis? Just yes or no to that.

A. Can you allow me to go back to the previous question for just a little bit?

Q. Yes, go on.

A. President Milosevic, in a telephone conversation, asked who this Goran Hadzic was, and General Simovic called General Nenezic to explain who Goran Hadzic was. But then they concluded that Goran Hadzic had already reached The Hague and that there was no way back. What I'm trying to say is that General Nenezic fobbed Goran Hadzic onto President Milosevic and that the president didn't know who Goran Hadzic was. And when he had contacts with him, I apologised to the president for saying this, but this was what I knew, and I was always upset that this was the way things were done.

And to answer your question, we did have contacts with Milan Babic. I can hear your question now.

Q. Very well. Did the accused make an observation to Simovic about Babic's appointing personnel in the Krajina on his own?

A. Yes. President Milosevic complained to General Simovic about ²⁷⁸⁶⁵ Milan Babic's behaviour. His secretary Mira and I would often spend hours looking for Milan Babic all over Belgrade. He never arrived on time for meetings with President Milosevic.

Q. I'm running short of time, looking at the clock. I just want to know what did the accused say, if anything, about Babic appointing personnel in the Krajina on his own. What did he say about that?

A. He said, "He doesn't ask anyone, either Kadijevic or you or me. He appointed Djujic, he appointed Lieutenant Colonel Mladic, who had a member of his family killed and who is going to take revenge. What's he doing there? That Milan Babic, I don't know --"

Q. Next question. Were you present at a meeting with General Djujic at --

A. Yes.

Q. -- office when he wanted some money? If so, how was the request resolved, what part did the accused play? But very briefly because we are running out of time.

A. Yes. I was in the cabinet when General Djujic burst in with his escort, several of them who remained outside our door, and no one could come in any more. General Djujic said, "Money, Tomo; money, Tomo; money, Tomo." The general called Zebic, he called President Milosevic, and then he went off to see, as he said, President Milosevic. I couldn't leave the cabinet nor could I answer the phone.

General Djujic waited in the cabinet for the money to be brought. When General Simovic came back, he asked, "What happened? What happened? What happened?" The general kept quiet. ²⁷⁸⁶⁶ After a certain time, Zebic arrived, brought a suitcase a little larger than a briefcase and put it on the desk in front of General Djujic. General Djujic just opened the lid, closed it again, lifted the suitcase up like this, got up and walked out of the door. General Simovic and Zebic just shrugged their shoulders and made a gesture spreading out their arms, and General Zebic went to the door and General Simovic didn't say anything further.

Q. Your summary deals with the influence of the Socialist Party of Serbia and with propaganda. As to propaganda, when Radovan Karadzic was promoted by Jevrem Damjanovic, editor-in-chief of Ilustrovana Politika and Ekspres, on whose instruction was that?

A. The question is posed erroneously. I wrote an article which I sent to my editor-in-chief of Ilustrovana Politika, and his name was Jevrem Damjanovic. I apologise for having to say this to you, but this is how it was, in fact. In the article, I dealt with a topic of Zoran Raskovic and many others involved, and my editor Damjanovic told me, "Dobrila, nobody must publish this article." And I said, "Why? Because of Radovan Karadzic?" And he -- I said, "Why?" "Because President Milosevic had ordered the promotion of Radovan Karadzic in the sense of being a Serb leader. And I have been put in the post of the editor-in-chief of Ekspres Politika to carry out that assignment, so don't lose your head because of your silliness."

Begging your pardon for my correction of your question.

Q. No, I'm grateful. You've been asked to listen to and have listened to an intercept. It can be found in its transcript form at tab 8 ²⁷⁸⁶⁷ of Exhibit 568. I have no intention of playing it, but you will recall the intercept, which you can see as to its content. Just have a quick look at this. The question simply is this: What voices did you recognise on that tape of an intercept? Just tell us. We're not going to ask you any more than that.

A. I listened to the conversation twice and was very surprised. The voices are similar to my voice, and then to General Simovic's voice and Radovan Karadzic's voice. However, with all due respect to this Tribunal and you yourself, I must state that I do not remember this conversation and that I never anywhere made a note of it.

Q. We've heard about the book, which may or may not be dealt with by others asking you questions. Can you go now, please, to tab 10 of Exhibit 568, which is a letter.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, time. So -- intercept for identification, of course, only.

MR. NICE: Yes, of course. Your Honour, I've only got a couple more questions to raise.

Q. We see at tab 10 a letter that you've reviewed. The signature at the end of it, which the Chamber can see on the fifth or sixth sheet in, is whose signature over "Tomislav Simovic"?

A. That is the letter -- or, rather, that letter was sent by General Simovic to the new Minister, Marko Negovanovic, and the president of the republic, Slobodan Milosevic, to protect me, and he wrote the letter personally himself. And in your documents you have the entire letter written out in his own hand, and you also have his signature at the end of ²⁷⁸⁶⁸ that letter.

Q. The passage that I'd like the Chamber to view and review is on page 1, highlighted reads: "Only because, with my authorisation, she kept record of the Ministry of Defence's works and events - interlocutors - and compiled them into a diary, the parts of which have been published in Nin. I personally gave my authorisation for the important parts. As for the less important parts, I believed she wrote it down correctly and later on I had the possibility to make sure it was correct, when I read the feuilleton in Nin."

That concludes the exhibits. Two questions -- and I have two more questions today or tomorrow morning, as Your Honour pleases.

JUDGE MAY: I think there is another case coming in, so we better make it tomorrow morning.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, as to witnesses, the witness on Thursday is a witness who must, if possible, start on Thursday. I don't know how long this witness will take. We do have the potential to take another witness after her. I am -- I must simply ask that the accused and amici are in a position to deal with the witness on Thursday, on Thursday come what may if the Chamber allows him to start then.

JUDGE MAY: Which is the witness on Thursday?

MR. NICE: 36, C-036. He's still protected at the moment.

JUDGE KWON: 62.

MR. NICE: I beg your pardon, 62.

JUDGE MAY: C-062.

MR. NICE: 62. So whatever happens else, we will start him on ²⁷⁸⁶⁹ Thursday, if we may.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn. Nine o'clock, please, tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.