Milosevic Transcript 2003-11-24

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Monday, 24 November 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Three 92 bis witnesses today. They may or may not take all of the day. Can I just mention about four matters briefly to keep you in the picture about evidence or evidence difficulties, and may I mention the first three of them in private session because they concern witnesses and contacts with them and so on.

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

MR. NICE: This relates to intercepts, several of which have been produced so far but only marked for identification and given different exhibit numbers. The Chamber will know that a witness is coming, and I shan't name him, in due course who can deal with these matters. No, actually my mistake. Perhaps we ought to -- I'm so sorry. Perhaps we ought to be in private session for this as well.

[Private session] (redacted)

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[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, the witness, please.

MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would call Ibro Osmanovic. Your Honours, this is an 89(F) witness which permission has already been granted for, so when he comes in, the statements will be presented in that manner.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: IBRO OSMANOVIC

[Witness answered through interpreter] ²⁹⁴⁵⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁶⁰

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Agha. Examined by Mr. Agha:

Q. Mr. Osmanovic, you have given three signed statements to the Office of the Prosecutor, the first one on the 10th of October, 1994; second on 11th of October, 1995; and finally the third one on 7th of June, 2001. These statements will be placed before you. Can you please confirm that they have been signed and are in fact your statements?

A. Yes. Yes, these are my statements.

MR. AGHA: May I kindly ask the Court to please exhibit Mr. Osmanovic's statements.

THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number is 597.

MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a new municipality on which evidence I do not believe has been led as yet, so it may be helpful if first of all we went to a map of Bosnia just to show where this particular municipality is, if you would like to do that at this stage. The Exhibit number is actually 343, tab 1. And if that could kindly be placed on the ELMO so the witness could see it. It's also on page 29, D3 of your atlas, if that's of assistance.

Q. Now, the Prosecution has already led evidence regarding Zvornik and Bijeljina and other municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, and, Witness, could you kindly point out on the map on the ELMO Vlasenica municipality which you'll be dealing with.

A. Vlasenica is here. It's in north-eastern Bosnia.

Q. Indicate the municipalities of Han Pijesak and Bijeljina where you were detained in the at Batkovic camp. ²⁹⁴⁶¹

A. I was not detained in the municipality of Han Pijesak but I came there. It gravitates towards the municipality of Vlasenica, and Bijeljina is by the Sava and by the Drina Rivers.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to spoke slower and to please speak into the microphone. Thank you.

MR. AGHA:

Q. Thank you, Witness. That is all with the map for the time being.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Osmanovic, did you hear the interpreter asking you to speak a little more slowly and into the microphone so they can follow what you say.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's no problem.

MR. AGHA: So, Your Honours, if I may, I'll now read a brief synopsis of the witness's evidence.

Now, the witness was living and working in the municipality of Vlasenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1990. In 1991, he was selling drinks in Han Pijesak at a celebration when a group of JNA reserve soldiers from Vlasenica requested that the band play Serbian nationalistic songs.

These songs have been banned in the former Yugoslavia because they were insulting to other nationalities. Some of these JNA soldiers were wearing Serbian national flag pins and Chetnik pins from World War II. The witness noticed that the Muslim and Serbian communities were beginning to divide.

Between August 1991 and April 1992, the witness saw other similar incidents in other parts of Eastern Bosnia such as Sekovici. In ²⁹⁴⁶² Vlasenica, the Serbians and the Muslims also started to divide their communities. The witness saw on the TV Arkan and Plavsic in Bijeljina and the war in Zvornik.

Everything was virtually calm in Vlasenica until 23rd, 24th of April when the JNA entered and took over the town. The JNA unit was from Novi Sad in Serbia and had tanks and armoured personnel carriers. The JNA took over the most vital departments in the town, which included the defence, police, justice, and the bank.

The witness did not notice any Muslims in the JNA, only Serbs. The JNA demanded that everyone hand in their weapons, and if their order was not complied with, the town would be subject to force. After the JNA had taken over Vlasenica, it was turned into a Serbian municipality. The already existing Crisis Staff, headed by Milomir Stanic, moved from Milici and set up headquarters in the Boksit company which was in the centre of town.

The witness believes that Milomir Stanic was in charge of all civil and military departments in Vlasenica with the commanders of the separate civilian authorities, including the police and military authorities, including camp guards at Susica camp, reported up the chain of command to him. The witness saw Stanic's name on many of the orders and movement passes.

The witness believes that prior to the conflict, the SDS and the JNA were working together. The leader of the Serb special forces was a lieutenant in the JNA and he reported to Stanic. The SDS Crisis Staff and the Serb special forces shared the same headquarters in the Boksit company ²⁹⁴⁶³ prior to the takeover. The Serb soldiers kept their same command structure and simply changed their uniforms.

After the JNA takeover, a Serb friend of his was mobilising with the assistance of the JNA all of the Serbian men in Vlasenica. The witness saw the draft notices which his friend was preparing. These were documents on typed A5 sheets with the following heading on the left top: "Armed forces of the SFRY-SSNO Belgrade, 1524, VP, military post office Han Pijesak. Muslims had their movements restricted and they needed to get passes in order to move around Vlasenica. Muslims were also discriminated against in other ways. For instance, they lost their jobs, they were not paid their wages, and had restrictions on their bank withdrawal.

When the JNA left on about 17th to 18th of May, they left all their equipment behind for the local Serbs who used this equipment to shell a number of nearby villages. The shells were incendiary and were designed to burn houses.

The witness was arrested for the second time without being told why on the 22nd of May, 1992, and he was taken to the town police station where he was held in a room with 20 other Muslims. Whilst at the police station, he was severely beaten during interrogations with police batons, metal pipes, and metal chains. Whilst at the police station, he also witnessed a Serb policeman kill Mr. Ambeskovic who was a Muslim who had organised the referendum for a separate Bosnia and Herzegovina.

On the 2nd of June, the witness was moved from the police station ²⁹⁴⁶⁴ to the municipal prison where on arrival all his valuables were taken away. He was placed in a cell with ten other Muslims. The prison was designed to take 50, but there were in fact around 150 men detained there. Whilst the witness was at the prison, he was taken to the Muslim suburb of Drum in Vlasenica to bury bodies. He buried about 22 bodies. He personally knew four of the dead. All of the dead were adult men and had all been shot between the eyes, except one, from what appeared like close range.

He was regularly beaten whilst he was at the prison, and numerous detainees were taken out and never seen again. He was later transferred on the 18th of June, 1992, to the Susica camp in Vlasenica. There were about 500 to 550 people kept at this camp. Only six or seven were women. The Susica camp was run by Dragan Nikolic, aka Yankee, who was a member of the Serb military special police. Nikolic told the detainees that he was God and law, and all the guards reported to him. The witness saw two of the detainees taken out of the hangar by Nikolic and who were beaten so badly that shortly after their return, they died from their injuries. He also saw a detainee named Reuf beaten so severely over the four- or five-day period that he begged to be killed. Nikolic, however, told him that a bullet cost three Deutschmarks. Nikolic also, in order to harass and intimidate the prisoners, fired his weapon over their heads, placed a pistol in the mouth of the detainees and continually beat them.

On the 27th of June, a man with a JNA uniform with a major's insignia came to the camp and read out a list of people to be exchanged. ²⁹⁴⁶⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁶⁶ The people boarded the buses, and a few days later, the witness also was taken to Batkovic where he arrived on the 30th of June. On arrival, he was immediately beaten by the guards. He also saw at Batkovic a 70-year-old man beaten to death. He was there for about 13 months. During this period, the witness noticed 10 to 12 detainees were singled out for particularly brutal treatment and beatings. This group was referred to as "the specials" and were kept apart. They were severely beaten several times every day. Alija, aka Konjanik, was in the specials group. The specials were beaten so much and so often that their faces became unrecognisable. Often they were beaten at mealtimes, so they had nothing to eat.

Whilst at Batkovic camp, both he and other detainees were made to do forced labour, and they were also taken to guard abandoned Muslim properties in order to loot the property.

Finally, the witness, after 13 months' detention at Batkovic, was released on 21st of July, 1993.

Now, this is a short synopsis of the witness's three statements, and if I must -- might now, with the permission of the Chamber, just ask him one or two oral questions.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. AGHA:

Q. Now, Mr. Osmanovic, you mention in your statement that the JNA took over town on the 23rd, 24th of April, 1992. Now, can you please tell the Chamber what the law and order situation was like in the town before the JNA took over. ²⁹⁴⁶⁷

A. It was the police station that maintained law and order in town. And there were no problems whatsoever, there were no armed conflicts, there was no mistreatment. There was just tension until the army came in. The army came in with combat vehicles and armoured vehicles. As soon as they entered town, they imposed a curfew, that is to say movement was restricted about town, the shops were not open.

The next thing that was done was the following: A Golf police car was used for announcing to everyone over a loudspeaker that they should all surrender their weapons and that the army was there to guarantee the safety of all. However, after the hand-over of weapons, only the Serbs moved about, only the Serbs carried weapons, only their shops were open. But the Crisis Staff issued a statement to the Muslims that they should all go back to work otherwise they would lose their property that they had so painstakingly acquired over the years.

Q. Mr. Osmanovic, thank you, could I stop you there, please. I want now to come to the period where you were detained in Batkovic camp. Now, you mentioned a group of specials, one of whom was named Alija Konjanik. Can you tell us who he was and where he came from, this detainee?

A. Detainee Alija Konjanik was from Bijeljina. He was brought from the Bijeljina barracks to the Batkovic camp, having been accused of trying to throw a grenade into a cafe bar where the Serbs would gather, and they said that he threw this grenade off a horse. That's why they called him "The Horseman," Alija Konjanik. And the International Red Cross -- he was hidden from the International Red Cross and he was beaten by all the guards, and then he was taken to Doboj. After six or seven months spent ²⁹⁴⁶⁸ in Doboj, he was returned to Batkovic and then he went to Tuzla.

Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned the Red Cross coming to Batkovic camp. What happened to the children and elderly people when the Red Cross visited?

A. In the month of August 1992, the Red Cross came, the International Red Cross came from Geneva to register these detained persons. This was the Batkovic collection centre, that's the camp I'm referring to. There was a group of very old men, over 65, and there was a group of children, and there was a group of a few of us able-bodied men, and they took us to the embankment on the Sava River by bus. And they took a group of specials by another bus to the farm.

In our place, in place of the adults, they put the police. They took us there three days, as if we were going on a picnic, and after that they gave us documents as if we were -- had been registered by the International Red Cross, but for all practical purposes, we were concealed throughout that period.

Q. Thank you.

MR. AGHA: I just with the permission of the Court would like to show the witness an exhibit or two and see if he can comment on those.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Agha, if you would remember the clock, please.

MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honours, absolutely. The first exhibit is at tab 4 of Exhibit number 597.

Q. And, Witness, if I could ask you very briefly to identify that place which you can see. ²⁹⁴⁶⁹

A. There is a hanger in this photograph. In very back, ammunition boxes can be seen. On the left and right-hand side are windows, but this is the hangar in Susica, in the Susica camp in Vlasenica.

Q. Was this where you were detained?

A. Yes, But I was at the entrance, that is to say right by the entrance door.

Q. Thank you. Now, could the witness please be shown the exhibit which is found at tab 5 of 597 and kindly be asked to identify what he sees in that photograph.

A. The camp of Susica can be seen here. These prefabricated buildings are the forestry company from Vlasenica. The next prefabricated building is the warehouse of the Territorial Defence. In the period of 1992 it was used for storing military equipment. The next warehouse next to it is the hangar where the detainees were kept. That is also a warehouse of the Territorial Defence.

What can be seen here is a room where the guards were. Over here is a truck. That's where the outhouse was, the toilet for the detainees of the Batkovic camp.

By this -- by this river, which is also called Susica, was another toilet and then there is a road here and then this is where the gate was, and then this is where a pole was, the form of the letter A.

Q. If I may stop you there, Witness. That's fine. Thank you very much.

MR. AGHA: And I would apologise to the Chamber for providing black and white photos because -- to save the time, but I am finished now ²⁹⁴⁷⁰ with my evidence in chief. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Osmanovic, I had available to me two statements. I did not have the third one, but that doesn't matter. You gave the first one in October 1994, and the second in October 1995; is that right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Before that, you gave a statement to the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the service of state security in Tuzla on the 27th of July, 1993; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you testified here on the 10th of October, 1995, in the case of Prosecutor against Dragan Nikolic, nicknamed Yankee; correct?

A. Yes. Correct.

Q. Have you ever been to Novi Sad or Sremska Mitrovica?

A. I was in Novi Sad, yes. I have been to Sremska Mitrovica several times.

Q. On page 2 of your statement from 1994, in paragraph 5, you say that in Vlasenica things were quiet until the 23rd or the 24th of April, 1992.

A. Yes.

Q. You say that's when the JNA arrived in Vlasenica.

A. Yes.

Q. You said that on that occasion a motorised unit of the Novi Sad ²⁹⁴⁷¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁷² Corps from Sremska Mitrovica arrived in Vlasenica.

A. An armoured motorised unit armed with tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

Q. From the details -- from your details that I received, you did not serve in the army in Novi Sad or in Sremska Mitrovica but in Niksic, Montenegro.

A. Yes. Military post box 6523.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be instructed to wait until the end of the question and speak more slowly, please.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Osmanovic, we've had another request from the interpreters. Could you speak more slowly and could you wait -- it's very difficult, I know, because it's -- you want to answer, but can you wait, when the accused has asked a question, until he's finished, and then you respond.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say on page 2, which is in fact the first page of the statement because the actual page 1 is cover page, you say those were soldiers of the motorised unit of the Novi Sad Corps from Sremska Mitrovica, and you said: "I recognised this unit because I served in the JNA from 1984 to 1985."

Would you please tell me now if you did your military service in the JNA in Niksic, on what basis did you recognise the unit from the Novi Sad Corps, without going into where this unit had come from. ²⁹⁴⁷³

A. I recognised their weaponry. I didn't recognise the unit itself. I recognised the weaponry that only the army had available to it. Everyone knows what kind of weapons the army has, what kind of weapons the police has. This unit had tanks. And I know the unit was from Sremska Mitrovica, belonging to the Novi Sad Corps, because I met a young soldier from Bijelo Polje named Predrag. I talked to him and he said he was serving in the JNA doing his military service in Sremska Mitrovica.

Q. Very well. So this is based on what this soldier told you from Bijelo Polje. Bijelo Polje is actually in Montenegro, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Since you were talking about the corps, I understood you were saying that this unit was under the command of a lieutenant.

A. I just said the unit that was in town was commanded by a lieutenant.

Q. That's the only unit you saw, the one in town.

A. Yes.

Q. It was commanded by a lieutenant?

A. You know very well that according to military strategy, every smaller unit is under the command of a larger unit.

Q. I know that, but you are talking now about a unit of the Novi Sad Corps that you saw with your own eyes that was commanded by a lieutenant. It could only have been a platoon of soldiers if they were commanded by a lieutenant. It could not have been a corps or any sort of larger unit.

A. Sir, the six tanks that I saw with my own eyes could not have been a tank platoon. Six tanks could not be a tank platoon. And that number ²⁹⁴⁷⁴ of soldiers walking about town who were everywhere around town could not have fit into the six tanks that I saw.

Q. Very well. Let's clear this up. They were under the command of a lieutenant, and they were a unit of the Novi Sad Corps. According to you, where did this unit come from?

A. In my opinion, Vlasenica bordered on Han Pijesak town which has a very strong garrison. It is a place populated by a majority Serb population. I know because I often went to Sekovici and Milici. I know that on the ground of the mine, the army was stationed, and in the factory of cardboard there were also army troops, and they could have arrived from three directions.

Q. Yes, but all the three directions are on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. Yes, but it's only 50 kilometres to the border. In the meantime, there were Serb forces already in Zvornik, as well as in Bijeljina.

Q. You know that neither in Zvornik nor in Bijeljina were there any JNA troops.

A. I would not agree with you.

Q. So you claim the JNA was in Zvornik and in Bijeljina?

A. I assert there were people from Serbia.

Q. I will not go into whether there were any people from Serbia. I know the JNA was not in Zvornik or Bijeljina.

A. The JNA was in Bijeljina.

Q. I noted here in your statement of the 10th of October, 1995, you said that from talking to some soldier named Predrag, you learnt that it ²⁹⁴⁷⁵ was a unit belonging, as you say, to the Novi Sad Corps; right?

A. That's precisely what I said.

Q. And you concluded that because he told you he was serving in Sremska Mitrovica during his military service?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did yours in Niksic, Montenegro?

A. Yes.

Q. He told you he was doing his military service in Sremska Mitrovica, not that he was originally from Sremska Mitrovica.

A. Yes, he was doing his military service.

Q. He didn't tell you he had actually come from Sremska Mitrovica.

A. No.

Q. And then by his accent, which became familiar to you when you were doing your military service in Niksic, you decided that he was from Montenegro, and he must have told you, I suppose, he was from Bijelo Polje.

A. He told me he was from Bijelo Polje.

Q. And now, as far as I can see from your statements, because you are testifying according to your written statement, in your statement of the 10th of October, 1994, you said this soldier had told you the unit was under the command of this lieutenant whom you mention, named Musa, who was an ethnic Albanian.

A. That's what he told me.

Q. So this unit which we are not able at this moment to identify as a platoon or larger than a platoon was under the command of a lieutenant who ²⁹⁴⁷⁶ was an ethnic Albanian. That's what you said in October 1994 in your statement, but you never repeated it in your later statements or testimony.

A. No, I did not. Nobody asked me.

Q. They didn't ask you. I see. Well, then, Mr. Osmanovic, is it true that either then or later or today you cannot assert with any degree of certainty that this unit was from Sremska Mitrovica, and you cannot say from where it had arrived into your municipality? You say it was Vlasenica.

A. Yes, I said it was Vlasenica. I stand behind what I said earlier, and I confirm it today, that it was a unit that I heard from the soldiers had been from Sremska Mitrovica.

Q. All I heard you as saying was that this soldier was serving in Sremska Mitrovica. But let us move on to what is relevant. You say that this unit, it's again in your statement of October 1994, took over the main urban services in Vlasenica. "I saw them that morning taking over various services."

A. They took over the post office, that is communication, banks, the judiciary, the police station, the building of the hotel. And since I lived near the hospital, I saw them took over the hospital as well and put up guards outside these buildings; the municipality building, various companies and enterprises.

Q. You say that they took over various services. Will you please explain, what did it look like, this takeover of urban services, municipal services? ²⁹⁴⁷⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁷⁸

A. That's how I see the takeover of the military command, the court house, the municipal building, that is the town hall, where they put up guards as well as in front of the post office, banks, et cetera.

Q. All right. I was just trying to picture it and hear your explanation. But tell me about this putting up of guards outside important buildings. It was probably a slip of the tongue by Mr. Agha Khan when he side that they took over the Ministry of Defence in Vlasenica. You probably mean the Secretariat for Defence, the municipal Secretariat for Defence.

A. Yes, yes, the municipal secretariat.

Q. And you mean the municipal services. But tell me, when you saw them come and put up their guards outside municipal buildings, did the members of the JNA on that occasion mistreat or abuse anyone?

A. Members of the JNA walked about town carrying long barrels, that is rifles, and topographic maps, and in armoured vehicles there were people wearing masks or even without masks, and they were addressing announcements to the citizens of Vlasenica, that they should turn over their weapons and that the JNA was there to guarantee everybody's safety. In the event of failure to turn over weapons, the army would use force.

Q. All right. That's not what I asked, in fact. What I asked you is this: When they arrived, when this JNA unit arrived whose size we cannot identify, did they mistreat or abuse anyone?

A. Apart from walk about town, I did not see them do anything like abuse or mistreat anyone. ²⁹⁴⁷⁹

Q. They just walked about town armed?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, soldiers are usually armed.

A. Only in wartime.

Q. When they arrived, did anyone fire from their weapons? Was there any shooting?

A. There was no armed conflict in Vlasenica.

Q. So during the stay of the JNA in town, the unit did not mistreat anyone or use their weapons, firearms.

A. There was no mistreatment or use of firearms.

Q. Were there any other reprisals that you could ascribe to the JNA units?

A. There were reprisals that could be ascribed to that unit, such as appeal to go work as work obligation, then restrictions imposed on withdrawals of money in banks regardless of the actual amount of money that you had on your count, then the curfew which I also believe to be one form of mistreatment, restrictions of movement, and the appeal made to people who had left Vlasenica in the direction of Tuzla to come back lest they lose their jobs and property.

Q. All right, Mr. Osmanovic. If they were present there, if it had been announced on that occasion that they were guaranteeing everybody's safety, and if they appealed to everyone to come back to their jobs, wasn't that a step towards normalising life in Vlasenica if they were appealing to people to return to their homes and go again to work? Wasn't that a step towards normalising life in Vlasenica? And I want to be ²⁹⁴⁸⁰ perfectly understood; I'm only speaking about the time when the JNA unit was present there. That's what I'm talking about. We'll come back later to the period when they were gone.

A. As far as whether this was a normal situation or not, it was not. That's what I'm going to say to you, because ethnic Serbs in the presence of the army carried weapons around town, whereas the Muslim people had handed over their weapons. They surrendered their weapons. So this was a modern-day camp. You're not armed, you're under fear of reprisals all the time, the only obligation you have is to work with your life in jeopardy.

Q. What do you mean you have to work -- obligation that you have to go to work? It is only natural for people to go to work, to do the things they did before the war.

A. Yes, but whose safety did this army guarantee, to the Muslim people, for them to go back? But at the same time, they armed the Serbs. They allowed them to carry rifles, long barrelled rifles in town.

Q. Mr. Osmanovic, isn't it correct that when this platoon or whatever it was, a unit larger than a platoon commanded by this Lieutenant Musa, an Albanian, when they were in Vlasenica and when they called people to go back to work and those who had fled from Vlasenica to come back to Vlasenica, when all of this was happening, wasn't their call addressed to all civilians for them all to return weapons?

A. No.

Q. So they said only the Muslims should surrender their weapons?

A. Yes.

Q. That was the -- ²⁹⁴⁸¹

A. Order.

Q. Wait a second. Did you hear anybody from the JNA issuing this kind of order?

A. Mr. Milosevic, in the vehicle that was driving about town and making this announcement, the Yugoslav People's Army guarantees the safety of all. The safety of all. But it calls upon the Muslim people to hand over their weapons.

Q. So that was the announcement?

A. Announcement.

Q. That is what you heard, that the JNA was guaranteeing everybody's safety and that only the Muslims were being called upon to hand over their weapons.

A. It is not allegedly; that is the case.

Q. So they were not calling upon citizens, they were calling upon Muslims.

A. Citizens of Muslim ethnicity.

Q. So you've given me an answer. Thank you for that. Now, tell me, while this unit, this JNA unit was there -- or actually, how long was it in Vlasenica?

A. Well, roughly until mid-May.

Q. Could you please be so kind as to remind me when they came.

A. April.

Q. The 23rd and 24th of April. So until mid-May, that was less than three weeks, approximately.

A. Yes. ²⁹⁴⁸²

Q. And when did this unit leave? So it left in mid-May. Where did they go to?

A. The tanks remained. Only the people got lost. They left town.

Q. Oh, the unit left town.

A. The unit left town in terms of manpower, if I can put it that way, but the technical equipment was still there.

Q. So the JNA unit was there for three weeks, from the 23rd, 24th of April until mid-May.

Now, I would like to ask you to answer me the following, because these are important questions for me. While this unit was in town, this JNA unit, did any -- was any citizen of Vlasenica arrested?

A. Yes. Hasan Kulanjcic was arrested on the 23rd and 24th as the army entered town. He worked in the furniture factory and then he was arrested and he spent all this time at the police station at the municipal prison in the camp of Susica and in the camp of Batkovic. On the 21st of July, 1993, he got out.

Q. Let's not expand at this point in time. Let us not look at a longer period right now. So apart from this one man, was anybody else arrested over those three weeks while the JNA unit was in Vlasenica?

A. Some people were brought into custody. Some people were. And they were asked for weapons, and people from the party, from the SDA party were looked for, those who had organised the referendum. They were looking for things, and people were taken away for a day or for an hour or two. Some people were released after a day or two or three, but Dzevad Topalovic and Hasan Kulanjcic were there for years. ²⁹⁴⁸³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁸⁴

Q. And who arrested them?

A. They were arrested by the army when they took the furniture factory.

Q. All right. But when the army left in mid-May, they didn't come with the army?

A. No. They left them to the Serbs.

Q. So they remained in the prison where they had been before?

A. Yes.

Q. Was everybody hurt or killed while the JNA unit was in Vlasenica?

A. I didn't see anyone being killed.

Q. Was anyone hurt in any way, beaten up or whatever?

A. Hasan Kulanjcic was beaten, Dzevad Topalovic was beaten.

Q. While the JNA unit was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who beat him? Because the JNA unit did not hold the prison, I assume.

A. I was there, Mr. Milosevic, to see who beat them.

Q. How do you know that they were beaten while the JNA unit was there?

A. Because when I came to prison Hasan Kulanjcic did not have a single tooth.

Q. When did you come to prison?

A. I personally saw Hasan Kulanjcic on the 2nd of June and I saw Dzevad on the 22nd of May.

Q. You saw them and you were arrested after the JNA soldiers had ²⁹⁴⁸⁵ left?

A. Yes, four or five days after they had left.

Q. Since there were no longer JNA soldiers there; right?

A. Yes.

Q. All of this that happened and that you're testifying about happened after the JNA left Vlasenica; is that right?

A. Both. Both.

Q. What does "both" mean?

A. It means that I have a statement that relates to the period before the army left town, and it also relates to the period after the army left town.

Q. I understand. But while the army was still in town, or rather, this unit that was commanded by this lieutenant, these two men were arrested. You do not know about anybody having been mistreated while the JNA unit was in town; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And tell me, please, while this unit, this JNA unit was in Vlasenica, was anyone's house torched or looted?

A. Three houses in Vlasenica were torched. The house of Fadil Tulkovic [phoen], commander of the police; of Huso Dautovic as well; and the house of a painter who's called Pekic, and that house is in the centre of town.

Q. Who set these houses on fire?

A. I don't know. I didn't.

Q. All right. You didn't, but what do you think? Who did? ²⁹⁴⁸⁶

A. Knowing who moved about and the houses were torched in broad daylight and the fire brigade was prohibited from taking any action, then you can paint your own picture.

Q. All right. I'm not even going to ask you about this. So no prison was established during the stay of the JNA there because these two men who were arrested while the JNA was there, these two men were taken to the regular police station, the prison.

A. No, in Vlasenica there wasn't any kind of prison, a regular prison or an irregular prison before the JNA came, but it was only after they came that one room on one particular floor was turned into a prison and also another room on the second floor.

Q. I understand that. But you explained yourself that while the JNA was there, two men were arrested.

A. Yes. Others were brought into custody but they were released too.

Q. You say an hour or two?

A. I also said a day or two.

Q. And they were released and the police station, I assume, was not held by the JNA but police.

A. The police. Uniformed police, armed like any police would be, but consisting of Serbs strictly.

Q. I'm not going into that. I'm talking about the JNA unit, the JNA unit did not hold the prison.

A. No, no, no. It didn't.

Q. So they had nothing to do with the prison?

A. They didn't. ²⁹⁴⁸⁷

Q. All right. These calls to surrender weapons, all of this was done in order to prevent an inter-ethnic conflict of the local population in Vlasenica and a possible attack on the JNA that had already been customary; is that right?

A. I would not agree with you. Mr. Milosevic, if one side is supposed to surrender weapons only and if the other side remains armed, then that is not prevention of conflict. I do not view this as conflict prevention; I see this as mere assistance to one side so they can mistreat and humiliate the other side.

Q. The army guaranteed the safety to all, and this safety would probably have been guaranteed had the decision not been made for the JNA to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic, but the decision of the JNA regarding security, I mean, I myself am an eyewitness to the fact that I lost everything.

Q. You didn't lose anything while the JNA was there. You lost all of that after the JNA had left.

A. But this is a decision that has to do with safety and security.

Q. All right. Since you lost everything, you lost it after the JNA had left, and you were arrested after the JNA had left.

A. Yes, but having trusted the JNA.

Q. But the JNA had left, and all of this happened to you afterwards.

A. I trusted them, and when they left, the town was blocked, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. The army was compelled to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they could ²⁹⁴⁸⁸ no longer give you protection, as you know.

But all right. Tell me something else now. Were there any inter-ethnic conflicts there between the Serbs and the Muslims while this unit, this JNA unit was present?

A. No.

Q. No?

A. No.

Q. Isn't that the best proof of all that the JNA did not allow any conflicts?

A. That is no proof, Mr. Milosevic, and it's not proof because, as for the municipality of Vlasenica, the local commune of Cerska did not want to surrender their weapons at all. They remained in their own territory, in their own village, for about a year after that.

Q. I see. I don't want to put any leading questions to you or anything. I don't want to suggest what you should answer, but I do bear in mind that when testifying here in the Nikolic case, you said that the JNA stayed there until mid-May and then you repeated that a few minutes ago, and then they withdrew to the area of Serbia, and now we have established that while the JNA unit was there there was no mistreatment of people. People were not killed, firearms were not used, and so on. None of these things happened in that period.

You were first arrested towards the end of May, beginning of June; is that right?

A. I was arrested on the 22nd of May.

Q. The 22nd of May. So this was at least a week after the JNA had ²⁹⁴⁸⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁹⁰ left.

A. Four or five days after the JNA had left.

JUDGE KWON: Witness, you are asked about your first arrest, not the second one. Was it on 22nd of May?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The first time I was taken into custody from in front of the bank, and this was done by Stevan Muminovic. He brought me to the police station. They asked me then why I wanted to withdraw money from the bank, and then they released me and they did not mistreat me then.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There is one thing that I would like you to explain to me, please. In your statement from the month of October 1994 -- I mean, I would like to ask you to try to remember and to give me the exact dates. In the October 1994 statement, as you were explaining when you were first arrested, you say, "After the departure --" This has nothing to do with your arrest but I'm just referring to this particular sentence in your statement. "After the regular JNA soldiers left, around the 5th of May, 1992, the reserve officers stayed on until the end of May," et cetera, et cetera. So regular JNA soldiers left already around the 5th of May; is that right?

A. The regular army or, rather, the young soldiers -- I last saw them around the 5th of May. After that, I didn't see them.

Q. So regular JNA soldiers, according to this statement of yours, left already on the 5th of May?

A. Yes. ²⁹⁴⁹¹

Q. So then on the 22nd, 23rd, if that unit came and if they left on the 5th, then they were not there even for a total of two weeks.

A. But I'm telling you again, regular soldiers.

Q. I'm not talking about different reservists now from a particular town and how long they stayed where they stayed, and they stayed on throughout as members of the army of Republika Srpska.

A. That is not true, Mr. Milosevic, that they stayed there throughout. They stayed there until they used the local -- they taught the local Serbs how to use tanks and mechanisation.

Q. But are talking about reserve officers who stayed until the end of May, nothing more, nothing less.

Tell me something else, please. That means that already from the 5th of May onwards, 1992, there was not a single regular JNA member in the territory of Vlasenica.

A. Conscript.

Q. All right, conscript. When were these two men arrested, as you said?

A. The 22nd of April.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So if the regular soldiers withdrew, then there were local people who remained.

A. Local people and those who came with the regular soldiers, the older men who came with them.

Q. Tell me, since you say that some vehicles stayed behind, where ²⁹⁴⁹² were these vehicles after the regular JNA soldiers had withdrawn? Where were they parked exactly, these vehicles?

A. By the stadium in Vlasenica, the sports stadium in Vlasenica. There were three tanks that were parked there. Also in the Muslim cemetery. Right in the middle of the cemetery, that is where a tank was parked. One tank and one APC were moving about town.

Q. All of this happened after the JNA left?

A. While the regular army, while the conscripts who were doing their regular military service were there, there was one tank in the Muslim cemetery, and the rest were by the stadium.

Q. All right. If they left these vehicles of theirs, how did they leave Vlasenica?

A. I don't know how they left, but the vehicles stayed, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. All right. We've clarified that. And then since the JNA withdrew, as you had put it yourself, you were arrested, and also a number of Muslims from the territory of Vlasenica were arrested as well; is that right?

And then in your statement given to the investigators, you mention a number of names of Serbs who, according to your assertion, took part in the arrests and interrogations that had to do with the possession of weapons and also attacks against Serbian villages; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know anything about these attacks on Serb villages? Why did they ask you about that? ²⁹⁴⁹³

A. We were asked whether we knew who had left for Cerska, where they had left, because in Vlasenica, there was no armed conflict. The first armed conflict began with the attack of the Serbs against Cerska. Cerska being an ethnically pure Muslim town, they did not allow the JNA to come in.

Q. When did that happen?

A. In May.

Q. When in May?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know the date in May. But in any case, it was after the departure of the JNA.

A. At any rate, the conscripts from the army left.

Q. You mean when the regular forces of the JNA left, that's when the attack against Cerska began?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me now, since you have enumerated some people, naming them, tell me now, among all those names that you have referred to - and I'm not going to repeat them - among all these people, was there a single person from the territory of the Republic of Serbia?

A. Yes, from the territory of the Republic of Serbia there was Goran Viskovic, also known as Vjetar.

Q. So one and one only. Where from?

A. From somewhere around Ruma.

Q. What about the others?

A. From Tisca, Sekovici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, or Milici.

Q. So there was one person from Serbia who happened to be there and ²⁹⁴⁹⁴ the rest of the places that you named were places in your own area?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me now, please, because when you testified against Nikolic, you said that he was a member of the JNA.

A. He was armed with an automatic weapon of the kind that the JNA had. He wore a uniform of the kind the JNA wore. He drove a vehicle with JNA licence plates. What conclusion would you have come to?

Q. But isn't it true that in response to the questions put to you by the side represented here by Mr. Agha Khan, you said that you had known Nikolic from before and that he was a local Serb.

A. Yes, I know Mr. Nikolic from around town, from meeting him in the street, in catering establishments.

Q. Yes. Well, that's all I wanted to know. He was a local Serb, a local resident.

Is it true that he was employed as a civilian employee in the Alpro enterprise before the war?

A. That is true.

Q. Did his brother work in the municipal administration?

A. Yes, in the tax administration.

Q. So we are talking about people who were local residents of Vlasenica.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that when testifying in the Nikolic case on the 10th of October 1995 you said that he was a member of a Special Police Unit of the Serb municipality of Vlasenica? ²⁹⁴⁹⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁴⁹⁶

A. I did say that.

Q. Why, then, did you ever claim that he was a JNA member? Is it just because he wore a JNA uniform? Those uniforms were all around.

A. Uniforms perhaps, but not vehicles.

Q. I am not challenging one or the other, but I want you to make your choice. Was he a member of the JNA or was he, as you yourself said, a member of the Special Police Unit of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica? That's what I read in the transcript on page 24, lines 7 to 11.

A. Dragan Nikolic, also known as Yankee, used to be employed in Alpro, the factory of aluminum pressings before the war. However, when the union of Serb municipalities was formed, Nikolic started going around wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying an automatic weapon. That's when I first saw him armed with an automatic rifle.

Q. I'm not interested in the details, I just wanted you to say clearly who he was. Since you say he was a member of a Special Police Unit, he could not have been a member of the JNA. Let us now clear up another thing, Mr. Osmanovic. You claim that you had been in some kind of camps. I wrote down Susica or Batkovic. Those are two different camps, aren't they?

A. Two different sites, yes.

Q. So we're talking about two different locations. We just saw a photograph where you indicated that it was the Susica camp. When was this photograph taken?

A. We actually saw two photographs. ²⁹⁴⁹⁷

Q. Well, one was an aerial photograph that does not show much, but the photograph where you see people, when was this taken?

A. I don't know. But aerial photograph speaks to the exact location of the camp.

Q. The exact location is in the Vlasenica municipality; isn't it? And you don't know about the other photo, where it -- when it was taken?

A. Well, I think it must have been made after the Susica camp was vacated, when everybody left.

Q. In that big hall which you called hangar, I saw only a few people and the walls were lined with wooden or plastic ammunition or weapons cases.

A. Yes. Those cases held weapons.

Q. And when you explained the other photograph, you showed us the warehouse of the Territorial Defence.

A. Yes.

Q. So what does this photograph show us with a few people and some cases?

A. It shows us the interior of the hangar.

Q. And the people we saw there, were they detained or were they moving freely around the hangar?

A. I don't know who these people were.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could we find out what kind of photograph that is and when it was taken? I don't understand what kind of exhibit it is if we don't know where it comes from and where it was -- when it was taken. ²⁹⁴⁹⁸

JUDGE MAY: The witness has identified it as the interior of the camp. If there are any further details which the Prosecution have, no doubt they can give them after the adjournment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I won't go into it, but this is not the first time to -- we are presented with exhibits where you can see nothing at all. We can see big rooms with or without weapons inside them --

JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter. That is all to do with the weight of the evidence, nothing further.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May. I don't see how we can speak about any weight with this kind of evidence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, since you say you had been in these camps and I know nothing about it at all, could you explain to me one of the things you say in your statement. You say: "During my stay in Batkovic," you were beaten up. That's on page 14 of your statement. You said you were beaten up. "Fikret Smajlovic, Dzemal Zahirovic nicknamed Spajzer, and Esad Bekric, they were willing participants in the beatings because they beat other detainees with or without the guards presented. They seemed to be more violent or worse than the Chetnik guards." I suppose you remember this.

A. I remember this, and I will explain how it came about.

Q. I want to know one thing: You are testifying here about the beatings, and from your own statement, it follows that the most brutal beatings were inflicted by Muslims themselves. ²⁹⁴⁹⁹

A. I kindly ask you, Mr. Milosevic, not to interrupt me. When we arrived on the 30th of June, 1992, on a transport that crossed Sekovici, Zvornik, and Bijeljina, in Batkovic we were first beaten up by Serb guards who happened to be there who also took all our valuables in the same go, beat us up, and then withdrew, leaving us behind locked doors. A few days later a group of people from Brezovo Polje, Brcko municipality, arrived, including Fikret Smajlovic, nicknamed Piklic. Dzemal Zahirovic, nicknamed Spajzer, came in the same group with me. How he arrived in Vlasenica, I don't know, but these two people before the arrival of Esad Bekric, nicknamed Beret, and also nicknamed Policeman --

JUDGE MAY: Let him finish. Let him finish. Yes. Go on.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These three men moved about in the presence of guards, beat other people in the presence of guards, and these two, Fikret Smajlovic and Esad Bekric, wore uniforms and walked about around the hangar and the perimeter of the camp. Fikret Smajlovic, nicknamed Piklic, brought his own car. Where did you ever see a prisoner in a camp owning a car?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Not one.

A. Well, this was one. So he enjoyed the support of the guards, the current command of the camp, and he was worse than many Chetnik guards. That's what I said, sir, and that's what it says in my statement.

Q. Well, that's the only -- that's precisely what I'm saying, Mr. Osmanovic. While you stayed at that camp, you suffered the worst mistreatment from your own countrymen, Muslims, because we can see that ²⁹⁵⁰⁰ this Fikret Smajlovic nicknamed Piklic, Dzemal Zahirovic nicknamed Spajzer, and Esad Bekric - you put a period here, you didn't mention his nickname - you confirm that those were the three worst men, all three of them Muslims.

A. Yes, in Batkovic camp.

Q. And obviously they were not prisoners because you say one of them wore a uniform, arrived in his own car, so I suppose he was not a detainee. So the Muslims who were there were guards in the Batkovic camp. Isn't that right, Mr. Osmanovic?

A. No, they were not guards. Mr. Milosevic, do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.

Fikret Smajlovic came and went but he spent nights in the Batkovic camp in a bed specially arranged for him. Esad Bekric, "Policeman," also slept at the Batkovic camp. Spajzer was brought from Vlasenica together with me. He had been in the camp -- interpreter's correction: He had been in Vlasenica before. He came to the camp with me. He did not go out for walks.

Fikret Smajlovic was the only one who wore a military uniform. The other one wore a camouflage uniform. I tell you, they were not guards. They were in the camp like me, but they beat other people.

Q. All of them are without a doubt Muslims.

A. Not all of them, only the three of them.

Q. I'm asking you about the three of them. And they inflicted the worst beatings.

A. I didn't say the worst. ²⁹⁵⁰¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵⁰²

Q. That's what you wrote here. Is it true that Braco Agic --

JUDGE MAY: We have been through this point and we have been on it for about ten minutes. It's more than enough. We can read and we can understand the point. It doesn't get any better by constant repetition, Mr. Milosevic. Yes, let's find something else to ask the witness about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not repeating. I am mentioning these other names for the first time. I mentioned three names.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But you say Braco Agic, Alija Ferhatovic, Bernes Hadzic, and Enes Hadzic, Klempic, and Nedzmin Aganovic were there. Is it true that Meho Kulanjcic, also a Muslim, put salt on the wounds of another Muslim? Not one but many Muslims.

A. He put salted compressed for swellings to subside.

Q. What about the other people I named?

A. Those are Muslims from Vlasenica whom Dragan Nikolic, nicknamed Yankee, left outside the hangar when the doors, when the gates of the camp close to monitor and to watch for family members of the detainees who would come to bring food to the detainees and to prevent them. Those people were his informants.

Q. So they were prisoners, but at the same time informants who mistreated other prisoners.

A. They did not mistreat them.

Q. What did they do?

A. They just informed on them to the camp commander.

Q. To the warden. ²⁹⁵⁰³

A. He was not a warden, he was camp commander.

Q. Is it true that your entire statement that you gave to the investigators on 11 October 1995, that is one day after your testimony in the Nikolic case, is dedicated to the mistreatment you suffered in the Batkovic camp? In fact, this mistreatment you ascribe to this Piklic, Spajzer, and Esad Bekric, it seems to me.

A. You don't mention Veljo, Zoran, Gligor, Major, and the rest.

Q. Well, I read out to you an entire paragraph of your statement. I did not omit a single name from the paragraph. I cannot read out loud the whole statement. I just wanted to establish that the worst mistreatment and beatings were inflicted to you precisely by your fellow Muslims while you were in the Batkovic camp.

A. That's what you say.

Q. I was quoting you. I'm not saying anything.

JUDGE MAY: No. There's no point continuing this argument. Now, you'll move on to something else. You've got six minutes left, Mr. Milosevic, and we're going to adjourn now.

Twenty minutes, please. Mr. Osmanovic, would you remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence during this adjournment, until it's over. Yes. We will adjourn.

--- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I will continue now. ²⁹⁵⁰⁴

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In relation to uniforms, you did your military service, didn't you, and you had this same JNA uniform; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Wasn't it a generally known fact throughout Yugoslavia that all reservists had JNA uniforms?

A. Yes.

Q. So these who were on the police force or on the reserve force, they all had these JNA uniforms, they all wore JNA uniforms that were available to them all that time, even before the conflicts broke out; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Just one more question that has to do with Cerska. You said that in Cerska there was a unit of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Who was there? Who was that unit or, rather, were these the Green Berets?

A. I don't know who it was, but I know that in Cerska it was the people who organised themselves. They did not allow themselves to fall under the influence of the so-called army and the Serb forces. As for the Green Berets, Mr. Milosevic, I never saw them.

Q. Patriotic League, something like that?

A. Never saw them, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. How big was this unit in Cerska?

A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Do you know who commanded this unit?

A. I don't know. ²⁹⁵⁰⁵

Q. You don't know the number of people involved? You don't know who was in command? You know nothing except there was one Muslim unit in Cerska?

A. Yes, I don't know the number of people involved, Mr. Milosevic, but I know that there was one unit.

Q. And it managed to survive for all of one year, as you said.

A. From 1993 to Cerska-Konjevic Polje when the enclave of Srebrenica was formed, the people, including a group that my mother was in, through Cerska and Crni Vrh, they came to Tuzla.

Q. Were these units under the command -- under the command of Naser Oric there in the enclave of Srebrenica?

A. I don't know who was the commander in Cerska but Srebrenica is 60 kilometres away from me.

Q. And how far away is Cerska from you?

A. 30 kilometres.

Q. So how can you know anything about what went on in Cerska and what happened in Cerska?

A. My mother was a prisoner at the Susica camp. My sister was a prisoner at the Susica camp. One sister and another sister. One sister never came back from Susica. Whereas my mother and one sister were transferred to Cerska.

Q. That is to say territory that was under the control of the Muslim forces.

A. Yes, that's right. They were allowed to go to Cerska and then on the 3rd of February they came to Tuzla, in 1993. ²⁹⁵⁰⁶

Q. When were you exchanged?

A. I was exchanged on the 21st of July, 1993 in Kovanica.

Q. Tell me, how many people were exchanged then, how many Muslims from your side?

A. You mean from the camp of Batkovic?

Q. I don't know what camps these were but how many were exchanged then?

A. From the camp of Batkovic, about 400 men were exchanged.

Q. And who were you exchanged for? Did you manage to see?

A. I saw people going both ways. On the one side there were men from the Batkovic camp, on the other side were people who had come from Tuzla, and then I went to Tuzla.

Q. These who came from the other side, they were Serbs who were exchanged; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they soldiers or were they civilians?

A. I did not see any soldiers.

Q. So you were exchanged for civilians?

A. I was exchanged for a civilian, yes.

Q. Thank you. No further questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

MR. KAY: Just one issue, Your Honour. Looking at page 68 of the first statement of the witness. There's no need for the statement to go before him as it's a simple matter.

JUDGE MAY: Page 68? ²⁹⁵⁰⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵⁰⁸

MR. KAY: Sorry, paragraph 68. Questioned by Mr. Kay:

Q. Witness, in your statement you refer to the changing of the uniforms after the Serbs took charge in Vlasenica. Could you explain what that change was.

A. The change of uniforms when the Serbs took over power and authority in Vlasenica, this consisted of the following: The local Serbs wore red -- white ribbons on their lapels, and also, before, the JNA had a Red Star on their caps but now there was a typical Serbian flag.

Q. If you could describe that flag, what you mean by "a typical Serbian flag."

A. The flag that was there before was the three-coloured flag with a red five-pointed star. On the caps there was only a red five-pointed star, and then the caps had these stars taken off and a flag was put there, blue, red, white, which was for a while the flag of Yugoslavia and for a while the flag of Republika Srpska.

MR. KAY: Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a clarification. Further cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Blue, white, red is the flag of Yugoslavia. I assume you know that.

A. Yes.

Q. And Serbia is blue, red, white.

A. Well, this is just the order in which the colours are placed. I'm not going to that, Mr. Milosevic. ²⁹⁵⁰⁹

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Agha, would you deal with this matter quickly.

MR. AGHA: I have no re-examination.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Osmanovic, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. You are now free to go.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, let me deal with one administrative matter. There was a question at the last hearing which Mr. Tapuskovic raised, namely to have the minutes of a session of the Presidency admitted, Exhibit 328, tab 16. In fact, that was all admitted previously, and so there's no need to be admitted again. Yes.

MR. KAY: I can just deal with that. It had been served only in English on him and not in B/C/S. So that's why he misunderstood.

MR. NICE: I have always understood that Mr. Tapuskovic's records of exhibits are amongst the best of the various parties -- not the Chamber, of course, but amongst the rest of it, amongst the best kept. May I raise one other small administrative point. Perhaps I can deal with it in private session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) ²⁹⁵¹⁰ Page 29510 - redacted - private session.

²⁹⁵¹¹ Page 29511 - redacted - private session.

²⁹⁵¹² (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're in open session.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: WITNESS B-1746

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MS. PACK: May the witness be handed the statement in English, please.

Examined by Ms. Pack:

Q. Witness, look at the first page of that statement. Are your personal details identified on that first page?

A. Yes, that's correct. ²⁹⁵¹³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵¹⁴

Q. Witness, your signature appears on the first page of that statement. Is it a statement that was taken on the 5th of April, 2000, and again on the 20th of April, 2002?

A. Yes.

Q. Subject to some points of difference which I'll deal with, are the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

A. Yes.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, I ask that the statement is admitted under Rule 89(F) and be assigned an exhibit number. It was the subject of an application that was granted last week by the Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The exhibit number, please.

MS. PACK: Under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the next Exhibit number is 598 under seal.

MS. PACK: I'll read a summary. The witness is Muslim of Bosniak ethnicity and from Doboj municipality. She lived in a village called Miljkovac, about three kilometres from Doboj town, and will describe the attack on the village and on Doboj town and the situation in Miljkovac and in the municipality of Doboj generally before and after the attack. She describes Doboj as a mixed municipality of about 25.000 people with about 49 per cent of the population being Muslim. The witness's village was majority Muslim. The witness describes in her statement the various JNA facilities in Doboj municipality. The main JNA barracks was located in Miljkovac about a kilometre from where the witness lived. It was a huge training ²⁹⁵¹⁵ facility, and the witness drove between the two parts of it every time she went home. There were also military buildings in the villages of Sevarlije and Potocani and training fields in the villages of Putnikovo Brdo, Plane, and Prisade.

The witness says she knew that weapons were being distributed to Serbs in Doboj in late 1991. When the war in Croatia began in 1991, she noticed many Serbs were absent from work, either on a military training exercise or gone to fight the war in Croatia voluntarily. In March or April 1992, the witness saw soldiers digging trenches and placing cannons outside the JNA military facility near her village. In April 1992, she began to hear shootings at night in nearby villages. She began to notice many private cars driving around with no registration plates. Soldiers in these cars were wearing camouflage uniforms and red berets. It was common knowledge that they were from Serbia. They were stationed at the JNA barracks close to the witness's home. The town was full of them. The witness saw them looting and burning houses in the neighbouring village of Plane. The witness says that regular Serb soldiers were afraid of the Red Berets. She heard that when regular soldiers tried to escape fighting on the front line, the Red Berets would tie them in trenches to prevent them escaping.

In May 1992, what the witness describes as ethnic cleansing by Serbs calling themselves Special Forces, Red Berets, and White Eagles started in Doboj. They wore camouflage uniforms as opposed to the regular JNA military uniforms worn by reservists. Muslims and Croats started leaving the area because they were scared. The Red Berets, White Eagles, ²⁹⁵¹⁶ and Special Forces committed many crimes. Men were arrested and taken away, women were raped, and there was a lot of looting in the town. The witness identifies the various detection facilities in town. She describes the detention facility at Cafe Perco and beatings carried out by Red Berets there. She describes detainees being transported to perform forced labour at the front line.

Doboj was attacked on the 2nd of May, 1992. The municipal buildings were taken over by the Serbs. The witness describes the shelling which she heard as she hid in her cellar for the next seven days. Approximately four or five days later, Serb Special Forces came house-to-house, searching for weapons. They were wearing camouflage uniforms and had black paint across their faces. They came to the witness's house looking for money and electrical equipment. The witness describes life in Doboj after the attack. A curfew was imposed. Serb soldiers would come regularly to search their houses. Former rubbish collectors were used to gather the bodies around town. The witness describes the arrest of her husband in July 1992 and his subsequent detention at the main JNA barracks and at a camp with hangars near the Bosanska juice factory. The witness and her family finally left Doboj in November 1992.

Your Honour, I have a couple of points on clarification that I'd ask the witness. Your Honour, if we may go into private session briefly.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁵¹⁷ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are back in open session.

MS. PACK:

Q. Witness, look at paragraph 45, please, of your statement.

A. Yes.

Q. The Special Forces you identify there as having carried out house-to-house searches, can you tell us, please, if they were wearing any ²⁹⁵¹⁸ head gear.

A. They wore black berets, and their faces were painted with some kind of black paint. It looked as if they were masked.

Q. Did those men say anything about what they were doing in Doboj?

A. They didn't say anything. They just asked us to give them weapons. They searched houses. They were looking for technical equipment, but they did not tell us why they were there.

Q. Turn, please, to paragraph 21 of your statement. You describe an attack on the village of Plane. Are you able to say or describe who it was who attacked that village?

A. The village was attacked by the Serb soldiers, as it says here.

Q. Tell us, please, those soldiers that attacked the village, were they wearing any head gear that you observed?

A. Most of these soldiers wore red berets, and they were driving cars of the Golf make but without any licence plates.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, those were the only additional matters I had to raise.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have the number of this witness. I cannot find it, because she is protected, and I cannot address her by name since she is a protected witness. Could you be so kind as to tell me her number.

MS. PACK: B-1746.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: ²⁹⁵¹⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵²⁰

Q. [Interpretation] Witness 1746, since I have two of your statements, one given on the 5th of April, 2000, the other given from the 5th to the 20th of April, 2000, I will, when asking questions, refer primarily to your second statement, which gives more detail, and I will indicate when I refer to your first statement to make this examination more simple.

So in your statement, in paragraph --

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear which paragraph.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Page 3 you describe a harmonious life in your community where you used to live very well until 1992.

A. That's true.

Q. I do not doubt that. But in the middle of paragraph 4 on page 2 you say, describing the economy, you say: "Looking back now --" that is paragraph 5 "-- I know now that the most important positions were given to Serbs. The Muslim population was never interested in that sort of thing and just didn't care."

I want to ask you, did somebody tell you this later or is it your direct firsthand knowledge?

A. That's the way it was, because all the major, important positions Serbs used to get by using their connections, family connections and otherwise, distributing these posts among their cousins, uncles, and extended family starting from schools and enterprises. I'll give you one example.

In the place where I used to live, in my company until 1981 or ²⁹⁵²¹ 1982, the factory mostly employed Serbs. However, in the 1980s, a new director was appointed, a Muslim, and it was then that the number of Muslim employees started to grow.

Q. But you say yourself that it was mainly Serbs who used to work in that factory and that a Muslim was appointed general manager, which is exactly the opposite of what you said a moment ago - namely that the Serbs occupied the most important positions - if a Muslim was appointed director of a factory employing mostly Serbs.

A. This happened in the period while a Serb was the general manager. Muslim workers could simply not get jobs there until 1981 or 1982, when the number of Muslim employees increased.

Q. All right. You gave me a good enough explanation. Can you give me at least one more example, because the one you just described is very clear. What are the most important positions that you say were held by Serbs?

A. Well, starting from the Yugoslav People's Army to managerial positions such as general managers, heads of departments, foremen, whereas the simplest and the worst jobs they were simply not willing to take.

Q. Do you really think that in a harmonious mixed community there could exist really such a difference between ethnic groups, that the Muslim population was not interested in important positions and that was some sort of their nationalist -- national characteristic, whereas Serbs were keen to hold important positions and were ambitious, and that was their national characteristic? Isn't that a trait of individual character? ²⁹⁵²²

A. I'll give you just one example. A person who used to work as a janitor at the reception desk went to an evening training course, and after that received promotion into head of section.

Q. Well, that was a very common occurrence in Yugoslavia, for people to receive additional training and be promoted. I don't think it has anything to do with ethnicity. I don't believe that ambition is a national trait.

A. I can agree with that. What I'm saying is that many people applied but were not employed on that position, whereas this simple janitor did become head of section.

Q. Well, I don't believe this was a factory that involved high technologies, the factory you are talking about. It was not a factory that used state of the start technology.

A. It doesn't matter now. It's just an example I gave you. I myself applied for different positions on various occasions and was rejected always while a Serb was the general manager, and then when the Muslim became general manager, Muslims and Croats applied and got jobs because they were judged not by their ethnicity but by their actual qualifications.

Q. All right. In paragraph 7 of your statement you said you heard and saw on television that Karadzic was often visiting in the area of Mount Ozren, both before and after the election. And then you link that to the fact that the Serbian army set up their headquarters in a place called Preslica very close to Mount Ozren.

If I understand you well, you want to say that Serbs were ²⁹⁵²³ preparing for the war, and that's why Karadzic went there.

A. The Serbs were not preparing. They were already prepared.

Q. Tell me, please, don't you know that the majority population near Mount Ozren is Serbian and that is the logical explanation?

A. I know that. That's why they chose it as their main base.

Q. But don't you think that the majority Serbian population was the reason why Karadzic went there?

A. All of this was organised, because war could not have started in just two months. Before April and May -- you know how long it takes for the former Yugoslavia to be transformed into Greater Serbia. Your countrymen, members of the Serbian ethnic group, said this publicly, and I had opportunity to see it for myself.

Q. They were saying publicly that Greater Serbia is being created?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Ma'am, I won't ask you any more questions about this, because you said you were not very political, you didn't even vote. From all that you said in your statement, we can see that you were minding your own business most of the time, which is an entirely different story. That's why I want to know, how come you know that the Serbian headquarters were in Preslica near Mount Ozren? Don't you know that there was no headquarters there?

A. No headquarters?

Q. Well, all right. How do you know that there was headquarters there?

A. The entire Doboj, with its environs, was the base of the Serb ²⁹⁵²⁴ army.

Q. Do you mean some kind of local command for Doboj and its surroundings? It wasn't headquarters or anything.

A. All I can tell you that -- is that Mount Ozren was and remains a Chetnik stronghold. Nowadays, after the war, I think the aspiration to create a Greater Serbia lives on, and most probably if there are enough vicious people, what happened a couple of years ago can still happen again and not only once.

Q. All right. You say in paragraph 8, page 2, that in November 1991 at election time it appears that everyone voted mainly for the nationalist parties. Don't you know when the elections were actually held?

A. This may be a mistake, but I know for a fact that everybody voted for nationalist parties.

Q. What you mean is that Muslims voted for the SDA and Serbs for the SDS.

A. Precisely.

Q. And then you say that after the elections, Serb symbols with four letters S appeared and Serbian children started singing Serb songs.

A. Precisely.

Q. What does it mean if Serb children sing Serb songs? Is that a sin?

A. No, it isn't a sin, but if they do so in public places -- if somebody calls me a great Muslim or calls you a great Serb, then that is not all right.

Q. We're talking about very old Serb songs, and you said yourself ²⁹⁵²⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵²⁶ that the song "We Are Alija's Army" was sung.

A. I mentioned this because I didn't agree with it. It has a nationalist connotation.

Q. It does, and it's not a traditional song. It is a reference to the army of Alija Izetbegovic that was established recently, whereas Serb songs had been sung for centuries.

A. No, not in the former Yugoslavia. At least not in public places.

JUDGE MAY: Given the significance of this witness's evidence, is there really any significance on what songs were sung 12 years ago? You criticise the witness for not knowing the date of an election 12 years ago and then you ask questions which really cannot have any significance in my view. Let us move on and find something more significant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I will find something that you will consider relevant.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 5 on page 3 - and I'm only referring to the statement of the witness who is testifying on the basis of her written statement - you speak about the disbanding of TO units, and you say you don't know what happened to their weaponry, and then you say, "Later during the conflict I found out that Serbs had taken over the weapons in order to distribute them to Serbs."

A. That's the way it was.

Q. You don't know -- you didn't know, in fact, you later found out. You found out from whom?

A. I found out from a man who worked with me, a colleague of mine, ²⁹⁵²⁷ who said loud and clear that they always came by night, around midnight or after midnight, and knocked on doors of Serb houses and distributed weapons to them. If somebody did not want to receive a weapon, they were threatened. The same happened to those men who refused to go into the reserve forces.

Q. All right. Do you know that there was an order of the former authorities of Yugoslavia withdrawing weapons that had been kept in TO warehouses all over Yugoslavia, not only in Bosnia-Herzegovina but in Macedonia, Slovenia, and every other republic?

A. I am aware of that, and I know the reason for that order. It was designed to prevent those weapons from being taken over by Muslims and Croats, and those weapons were kept in the barracks of the former JNA. However, Serb troops, soldiers of Serb ethnicity, got hold of these weapons later.

Q. Do you know that the Serbian TO also had to give up their weapons in the same way?

A. I didn't understand your question.

Q. The same thing was done in Serbia. The weapons of the Territorial Defence were put in the hands of the JNA.

A. I know that. But I also know that all the plans that were developed, including plans for war and attacks on parts of the former Yugoslavia, were made in the Republic of Serbia.

Q. How could you possibly know that? Tell me, please.

A. Well, that was very well known. When your own parliament fell apart - I don't remember in which year it was - when you quarreled in your ²⁹⁵²⁸ parliament and before the war you started making, what do I know, plans for dividing the parties of the former Yugoslavia with one part going to Croatia, another part going to Serbia, another to Bosnia and Herzegovina --

Q. I would really like you to enlighten me. Which parliament are you talking about? What happened there? Who was making plans to divide Yugoslavia into various parts that were to be divided among Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia?

A. I did not put that in my statement, but I will say it now, because I know. All your conferences in Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia, when you met with Tudjman and Alija Izetbegovic, you always failed to agree.

Q. There were meetings involving all presidents of Yugoslav republics, and the last of them was held in Stojcevac, if you remember.

A. Well, I was not that interested, so I don't remember the time and the place, but I know that you participated in the carving up of a country and of one people.

Q. Well, you certainly could not have derived that conclusion from those meetings, because we were committed to preserving that Yugoslavia.

A. Yes. You were committed to preserving that Yugoslavia which was actually to be Greater Serbia.

Q. So that is what you mean.

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this debate. This is merely a debate on general issues. It has nothing to do with the witness's evidence. Yes. Move on to more concrete matters, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Mr. May, that what the ²⁹⁵²⁹ witness is replying has nothing to do with her evidence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

So you say a large number of Muslims and Croats were leaving.

JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pack has something. Yes?

MS. PACK: I was concerned that the accused is going to be asking questions which may lead to the identification of this witness. If he could be cautious of that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll make an effort.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, you must be careful about that sort of thing.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am very careful, Mr. May, especially when such lady witnesses are concerned, and I've never made a mistake of this kind until now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. "We did not know or understand why they were leaving." So from January to the spring of 1992, a great many Muslims and Croats were leaving the area. You were naive. You did not know why they were leaving.

So this is the time before the war broke out, when negotiations ²⁹⁵³⁰ were held in order to overcome the crisis and to avoid a war. What is it that the Muslims and Croats knew at the time and what you did not know because you were so naive?

A. They seriously took the war in Croatia. They took the war in Croatia seriously, and they were leaving probably because probably they were better informed than I was. They realised that this war would reach Bosnia as well. And all of this was done systematically, town by town.

Q. But you say the Serbs took it in order to divide it up among the other Serbs. That's what somebody told you. Somebody said that to you; right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you're not testifying about what you know, you are testifying about things that other people told you.

A. I testify about things that other people told me and about things that we know because we did not have any access to these weapons. And had we had access to weapons, the situation would have probably been different.

Q. Oh. So that means that to the best of your knowledge, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as the armed force was called, the one under the command of Alija Izetbegovic, it was not armed?

A. No.

Q. Oh. It was not armed; right?

A. It wasn't.

Q. All right. Very well. Then you say in paragraph -- or, rather, on pages 3 and 4, you say that in 1991, both Serbs and Muslims were ²⁹⁵³¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵³² receiving call-up papers to join the JNA and that the Serbs did respond, but the Muslims, and I'm quoting you: "Nobody responded to the call-up." That's what you said. "Nobody responded to the call-up."

A. First and foremost, the Muslims and Croats remained at their workplaces. Hardly any of them were called up as reservists for this military exercise, and it was mostly Serbs who went as reservists because they had to go, because they were receiving threats. They were threatened by imprisonment if they did not respond.

Q. Well, I assume that you know that the law was the same in the former Yugoslavia. And it's not only the Serbs who would have gone to gaol if they did not respond to the call-up, Muslims and Croats would have too. But you say no one, none of the Muslims and Croats responded.

A. They didn't because when the war broke out in Croatia, many Muslims did respond but then they were sent to the front line.

Q. All right. Do you know that the Party of Democratic Action was calling upon the Muslims not to go into the JNA?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. So what do you think? Why did no Muslims respond? Why did this happen? How could this happen?

A. Because most of the call-up papers were sent to citizens who were ethnic Serbs. And secondly, people already felt unsafe, and a minority was getting call-up papers. I just know of one case. A colleague from work who received call-up papers to join the reserve force did not go. He was supposed to go to Preslica.

Q. I see. That is where the Serb headquarters was, as you had put ²⁹⁵³³ it.

A. Precisely.

Q. And this was actually a place where the Territorial Defence rallied.

A. Whose Territorial Defence?

Q. A Muslim got call-up papers and did not go there.

A. In that area, the Territorial Defence could not function.

Q. Wait a minute. The man who was called up, was he a Muslim?

A. Precisely.

Q. And then he was supposed to go to this place that you call Serb headquarters. So it was the Territorial Defence that was being called up regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims. Isn't that right, Mrs. 1746?

A. He got call-up papers but he refused them.

Q. I understand, because you say that none of the Muslims responded.

A. I said loud and clear that he did not respond and for the most part it was Serbs who responded because they had to go there.

Q. I understand. But this Muslim who received call-up papers was called up to go to the place that you call a Serb headquarters and this was actually the focal point of the Territorial Defence of the municipality of Doboj. Is that right or is that not right?

A. I'm just going to give you one example. A few people were taken up there to Preslica, and they've been missing since then.

Q. You heard about that; is that right?

A. That was in the newspapers and on television. A few people lost ²⁹⁵³⁴ their lives for no reason whatsoever because somebody thought there was a reason for that.

Let me just say one more thing: These were citizens who were ethnic Muslims.

Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. On page 4, in paragraph 4 you say in the beginning of April you started noticing soldiers in privately owned Golf cars without licence plates, in camouflage uniforms, and so on and so forth. You say that everybody knew they were from Serbia because you say, "We could not recognise them."

The fact that you could not recognise them, could that mean that they were not from your area only or how can this mean that they were precisely from Serbia?

A. No. These people were from Serbia. We knew that. And they themselves made it known that they were coming from Serbia.

Q. Well, what they were making known could be a completely different matter. But do you know, since you are talking about Golf cars without licence plates, that it was precisely in Sarajevo, in Vogosca, that the Golf car was manufactured? Do you know that?

A. Are you trying say that these were soldiers of Muslim ethnicity?

Q. Madam 1746, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just trying to put a question, and I ask you kindly to answer my question. Do you know that it was precisely in Sarajevo -- rather, in Vogosca that there was a manufacturing plant of Golf automobiles?

A. As far as I know -- I actually do not remember. I know there was a factory, but I do not remember. I wasn't really interested in that kind ²⁹⁵³⁵ of thing.

But let me just tell you something else: That these cars, these Golf cars were in front of the garrison in my town.

Q. I don't know where they were. I just know that these vehicles of the Golf make were manufactured in Sarajevo, in Pretis. That's the name of the factory. Also, that from the storage space of the Sarajevo factory, many of them were stolen. I assume that you would know that they were not stolen by the JNA but, rather, by local inhabitants, and they drove them in all directions. So those were the cars that --

JUDGE MAY: The witness can't possibly know all this. We've heard the evidence about it, and I don't think the witness can take it any further as to where these cars came from. All she can say is that these were the cars. If you want to call further evidence about it, you can.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 4 on page 4, you say that these soldiers were not regular Serb soldiers. That's the way you put it. And then you say they themselves said that they were members of the special forces of the Red Berets or White Eagles. Is that what you say?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And in paragraph 4 on page 5, you say: "At the time in Doboj there were only volunteers from Serbia, rather, members of the Red Berets, White Eagles, and Serb volunteers from Bosnia and Croatia as well as those from Romania and Russia."

A. Yes. There were a lot of mercenaries. ²⁹⁵³⁶

Q. So you saw these different volunteer groups. And how did you distinguish between and among them?

A. I could recognise the regular army of the former JNA, I could recognise the soldiers with red berets, and I could recognise the soldiers who called themselves the White Eagles. These were paramilitaries.

Q. Paramilitary forces.

A. Yes, paramilitary forces.

Q. No doubt about that, that the White Eagles are paramilitary forces.

Now, tell me something else. How did you manage to identify these groups from Romania and Russia and so on? How did you come up with that? This is the first time I hear of any volunteer units from Romania and Russia.

A. Didn't you hear about them on television and over the radio, that people from Russia and Romania came to fight in Bosnia for very small amounts of money on the side of the Serbs.

Q. I didn't not hear this on radio and television. Perhaps this was on some radio that you listened to. And also, you say didn't I hear this over radio and television. Did you actually hear this from radio and television?

A. Precisely.

Q. You didn't see them?

A. Well, I didn't see them, fortunately.

Q. All right. Let's not go into this any further. You talk about things that you actually did not see. ²⁹⁵³⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵³⁸ Recently a witness was here, a French journalist, and he brought pictures of the members of the White Eagles, and they had red berets on their heads. So what is the difference in terms of the caps they wear, the members of the White Eagles and those who called themselves the Red Berets, as you put it? Is it the same group or are these two different groups?

A. We or, rather, I saw quite clearly, and I would encounter them from February, March, until May 1992. I had the opportunity, actually, of seeing every day the Red Berets and also the regional army, the Serb army, and these members of the White Eagles. Finally, some of them wore red berets, others were black berets, and yet others wore ordinary caps but without the red star, the red five-pointed star. That's a well-known fact. Some of them had red or yellow ribbons on their shoulders and that's how they could be identified.

Q. All right. In your statement dated the 5th of April, you say on page 2 in paragraph 4, I'm quoting what you say: "There were some men with insignia of Arkan's White Eagles. They had camouflage uniforms but on their shoulders they wore different insignia so they could be recognised.

A. Sir, these White Eagles were where I lived so I had the opportunity of seeing them every day.

Q. All right. Does that mean that White Eagles and other volunteers were dressed the same way or in a similar way as others and then it was necessary for them to have this special kind of insignia on their shoulders? ²⁹⁵³⁹

A. Mr. Milosevic, is it that important what people wore?

Q. It's not that important, absolutely. But I would like to identify what you are testifying about and what you actually saw, because you say here, verbatim, "There were some men with the symbol of Arkan's White Eagles. It is generally known here that Arkan's soldiers were the Serb volunteer guards.

A. Yes, and they had --

Q. But the Eagles had nothing to do with Arkan. How did you come up with this, that Arkan had the White Eagles?

A. Well, you had so many paramilitary organisations that no one can know all their names.

Q. Well, paramilitary organisations do not belong to the states, as you know, so it's not that we had them. They were paramilitary organisations. So isn't it quite clear that the White Eagles and Arkan's volunteer guard were not one and the same thing? You claim here that it is the same thing.

A. For us -- I beg your pardon. For us, it was the army of the Republic of Serbia.

Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. Since you're talking about Arkan's White Eagles, I had to put a question in that respect. I did not ask you about any army of the Republic of Serbia because there was no such thing. There was the army of Yugoslavia, as you know full well, I presume.

MS. PACK: Your Honour, might the accused identify the paragraph to which he's referring as the reference to Arkan's White Eagles. I can't find it in the statement. ²⁹⁵⁴⁰

JUDGE MAY: Well, he doesn't have the numbers. Perhaps you could look for it over the adjournment. Yes. Let's keep going.

JUDGE KWON: Is there any other statement of this witness?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can tell you.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Yes, tell us.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already pointed out at the very outset that I would say specifically when I refer to the first statement. So I said specifically the statement dated the 5th of April, 2000, and I quote from page 4. "There were men with insignia of Arkan's White Eagles. They wore camouflage uniforms, but on their shoulders, in order to be readily recognisable, they wore different insignia." So this is the second paragraph on page 4 of the statement dated the 5th of April, 2000.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's move further on. In paragraph 5 on page 4 you say that the regular Serb soldiers were afraid of those you call the Red Berets, because the latter beat them, as you said. And you repeated it also during the very brief examination-in-chief you had here. They forced them to fight at the front line, and you heard that they even tied them up in trenches so that they would not flee from combat.

A. Yes.

Q. How is this possible? Soldiers who are supposed to fight at the front line are tied up by someone in trenches so that they would not flee from combat? How can they fight if they are tied up? How can a soldier who is tied up fight? How did you get these ideas? ²⁹⁵⁴¹

A. Well, we're not going to be so very literal. It's not that they were quite literally tied up. I mean, their hands were not tied up.

Q. Oh, their feet were tied up?

A. Well, they were tied one to another in the trenches. And that's how they found Serb soldiers. And they were reservists for the most part, ordinary men who were in the trenches. All paramilitary troops or, rather, the army of the Republic of Serbia and the regional army of the JNA were for the most part stationed in town. They looted most of the time and searched houses and committed crimes, whereas normal, ordinary soldiers were in the trenches.

Q. What does this mean in your vocabulary, this regular army of the JNA? I cannot understand this. I cannot identify what you mean by this "regular JNA" or "regional JNA," depending on what you say.

A. The former Yugoslav army of the former Yugoslavia, because you know that at the beginning of the war there was no more Yugoslav army. It was divided. The Serb army, the army of Serbia or -- and then there was the army of the Federation and the army of Croatia.

Q. All right. These regular soldiers, when you use that word "regular soldiers" as the ones that you refer to, were they members of the regular army of Republika Srpska?

A. Yes, they were. Of Republika Srpska, yes.

Q. So we've clarified that point, at least. In paragraph 7 and 8 on page 5 of your statement, you say: "Reservists freely moved about in military uniforms of the JNA and with full gear. There were many new faces in town. It was known that Serbs wore camouflage uniforms whereas ²⁹⁵⁴² our local reservists wore regular military uniforms of the JNA." These local reservists of yours, the ones that you refer to, and regular Serb soldiers that you refer to, are they one and the same thing or not?

A. I can just say that in the beginning just when the war began, they had normal old olive-grey uniforms. But after a month or two, for the most part everybody had camouflage uniforms.

Q. Oh. So these same people, members of the army of Republika Srpska that you talked about a few minutes ago. First they had olive-grey uniforms and then camouflage uniforms.

A. Yes, but we know what the army of Republika Srpska was and what the army of Republic of Serbia was.

Q. The Republic of Serbia does not have an army. I don't know how you identified the army of the Republic of Serbia. Do you mean the JNA?

A. We know that with the beginning of the war, the Yugoslav People's Army ceased to exist. The only army that existed was the army of the Republic of Serbia.

A. I will not go into this and make you suffer these questions. Just tell me this thing: In the last paragraph on page 4, speaking of the Doboj Red Cross, which in May 1992 was located in the secondary school of Doboj, you say the following: "In May 1992, the Red Cross was located in the secondary school of Doboj. It was the Serb Red Cross. And throughout the war, nobody worked there. In the beginning, Serbs used it as a refugee camp where food was distributed to displaced persons. Later, it was used as a detention centre. I know that prisoners were kept and ²⁹⁵⁴³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵⁴⁴ tortured there because I used to go there to visit them, bring them coffee, and clothing. The brother of my aunt was detained there" - I'll skip his name - "her son, one and the other." I will not name anyone for your safety. "And they were later exchanged."

Now, regarding this quotation, will you please tell me who are these people who had been expelled to whom food was distributed in that centre? Where did they come from and who expelled them?

A. Well, first of all, it was a school.

Q. I quoted you, Madam 1746. I quoted your statement very precisely. You did not clarify that it was a secondary school. I refer you to your own statement, and I'm asking you to tell me: Who are those expelled people you mentioned to whom food was distributed in this refugee camp? Where did they come from and who expelled them?

A. There were both Muslims and Serbs among the expelled people.

Q. So there were both Muslims and Serbs who had been expelled and food was distributed to them. Where did they come from and who expelled them?

A. Well, Muslims were expelled by Serbs, as we all well know. And as for Serbs, they had left their homes even before the attack.

Q. And who expelled the Serbs?

A. I don't know who expelled the Serbs from Bosanski Brod, because Bosanski Brod, as far as I know, belongs to Republika Srpska, and it must have been attacked by either Croats or Muslims, because we know that Bosanski Brod is located on the border between Bosnia and Croatia.

Q. So when Bosanski Brod was attacked, Serbs fled and that's where ²⁹⁵⁴⁵ they were accommodated; right?

A. Precisely.

Q. Because you say it was a Serb Red Cross. Food was distributed, and the refugees were Muslims and Serbs. Doesn't that mean that food and assistance were given to everyone?

A. I just wish to point out that it wasn't only the Red Cross headquarters. One part of that facility was a detention centre where Muslims and Croats were tortured.

Q. As you explain now, it seems to have been some place of torture.

A. Precisely.

Q. And you say that those alleged detainees were exchanged.

A. Yes, they were. In 1994, I think, they were exchanged, because I saw a couple of the former detainees after the war.

Q. So Muslims held Serb prisoners, Serbs held Muslim prisoners, and they later exchanged them; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now tell me -- I'm not going to identify anyone. I'm not even (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me now, if you said just before that, and I quoted you, that ²⁹⁵⁴⁶ nobody worked in the Red Cross throughout the war and it served as a detention camp, why did you ever go there?

A. We had to go there for purposes of identification and registration, because by that time we were refugees ourselves. We were forced to leave our homes and to report to the Red Cross base where we received some sort of registration slips that had our names on it. Briefly, we were registered there. After that, we left. We did not stay there for a long time.

Q. Well, that means that the Red Cross did work, did operate after all. You said on page 4 that it didn't. From what follows -- it follows from what you just said that it did work. You received some documents there and that's what you just explained, isn't it? Isn't it, Mrs. 1746?

A. Just give me a moment. On page 4 I can't see this passage.

Q. Page 4, and I'm going to speak about the Doboj Red Cross, you said that in May 1992, the Red Cross was located in the Doboj secondary school. It was a Serb Red Cross, and nobody worked there. So first you say nobody worked there, and then you say that you went there to get registered.

MS. PACK: Perhaps I can assist --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What actually happened?

MS. PACK: Perhaps I can assist with the paragraph number. It should be paragraph 26 on the witness's copy.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. My apologies to the witness, because I am not quoting the numbers ²⁹⁵⁴⁷ of the paragraphs because I received the numbered version only a moment ago. The one I was using until now did not have any numbers.

A. Let's me answer this question now. "In May 1992, the Red Cross was located in the Doboj secondary school. It was a Serb Red Cross, and during the war nobody worked there."

What I meant was that it no longer operated as a school. There was no more teaching staff or any other employees and that the Red Cross was stationed there with their own staff doing their own work.

Q. Thank you for this. Now, speaking about the detention of your husband, paragraph 10, page 4 of your statement. I want to ask this question before we adjourn for a break. It is not a short paragraph, and please pay attention, because I want to make a comparison. You say: "The prisoners were mistreated, and they hardly got any food all day. They had to sleep on pallets. On one occasion, I managed to bring some food to my husband and give it through a guard through the fence for it to be given to my husband. He never received it." That's what it says in that paragraph, whereas in paragraphs 8 and 9 on page 7 of the statement given in 2000, you say: "They were mistreated, and they hardly gave them any food all day. They had to sleep on pallets. I managed to get" -- And you say this very clearly: "I managed to get some food to him every day through the fencing around the camp."

These are two different assertions, Mrs. 1746. Which of the two is true? Did you manage to get some food through to him on one occasion or every day? ²⁹⁵⁴⁸

JUDGE MAY: All right. We have the question. What we don't have is the numbers of the paragraphs. The witness can perhaps think about that -- just a moment -- can think about that over the adjournment. Ms. Pack, you will please find these paragraph numbers for us, locate them.

MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Witness B-1746, when we come back, we will give you the right numbers of the paragraphs and you can have a look at them before you answer, because you should at least know what the accused is referring to. Could you remember, please, during the adjournment not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over.

Yes. We will adjourn. Twenty minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, if I may assist the witness, please. I said, actually, that my first quotation comes from page 4 -- in fact paragraph 4, page 9. And my second quotation is from paragraphs 8 and 9 on page 7 of the statement dated the 5th of April. My first quotation is from the other statement, and the second quotation is from paragraphs 8 and 9, page 7 of the statement dated the 5th of April. So she knows the exact location of these paragraphs.

JUDGE MAY: We only have one statement, as it is. We will have it clarified after the event, and then, Mr. Milosevic you've got ten minutes more for cross-examination.

Yes, I'll sign the form.

--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m. ²⁹⁵⁴⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁵⁵⁰

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, have you the answer for the conundrum?

MS. PACK: Yes, just to clarify in relation to the statements, there is an earlier document headed "Witness Information" that wasn't signed by the witness. It was just a record of the first interview which then was followed by a second interview two years later, at which point the witness signed the statement that you see before you, Your Honours. So far as the paragraphs which -- to which the accused has been referring the witness, I can just explain. The first paragraph in the second statement, it's at paragraph 71; and in the first draft I've identified the relevant paragraph for the witness on the version in -- which is in front of her. Should Your Honours wish to see the first draft, I have got copies to pass up to you.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1746, if you've got those paragraphs now, the accused's question was about an apparent discrepancy about whether your husband received the food or not. Perhaps you can deal with that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first statement that I gave in the year 2000 is one that I did not sign because the computer broke down, so I could not read the statement out. So then ever since there have been some small mistakes that we corrected while it was being translated. I can say that it was only on one occasion that I managed to get some food to my husband. As for the other times, never. I never managed to do that again.

I can also tell you, and perhaps this has to do with that, I went to the camp every day in order to visit him, if possible, to visit and see ²⁹⁵⁵¹ my husband.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, since this witness undoubtedly requires a bit more patience during her examination, I don't think I can finish within ten minutes, so please bear with me. As for the fact that the statement was not signed, on page 8 it says "Witness acknowledgement" and then there is a signature and the date the 5th of April. There is no difference whatsoever compared to the other statement where it says the date the 20th of April and then there is a signature. Neither one actually bear a signature. It just says "witness's signature."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, I am here to give you only the real kind of evidence, true evidence. It is not in my interest to lie to anyone and to say things that are wrong. (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So what is written here on page 7 of that first statement of yours: "I managed to bring him food every day and to give it to him ²⁹⁵⁵² through the fence," that is simply not correct?

A. That is not correct. I managed only once, but I went there every day.

Q. On page 4 of your statement, in paragraph 6 you said, and now I'm quoting you: "In May 1992, the Serbs started cleansing Doboj ethnically and that the Muslims and Croats, out of fear, started leaving the area." That is a quotation.

And on page 6 - so we're talking about one and the same statement here, the one that you signed - on page 6, paragraph 9, speaking of the Serb takeover of Doboj on the 2nd of May 1992, you say the following: "After seven days an announcement was made over the radio addressed to the workers telling them they should all go back to their workplaces. I was not called up, but my work -- my husband was, and all of those who had taken anything from -- anything from their companies were supposed to take them -- these things back. When my husband went back to work, he had a new boss, a Serb."

Mrs. 1746, this is where I quoted you. Does that mean that the Muslims and Croats were not expelled from Doboj? On the contrary; they were called upon to go back to work, just like the Serbs, but some of them left out of fear.

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁵⁵³

Q. I'm asking you about what you said here. "After seven days, there was an announcement made on the radio asking workers to go back to their workplaces."

A. Yes. Radio Doboj said that workers, I mean individual workers, who had material resources from their companies, they were supposed to go back and to hand them in. My husband was under this work obligation for about seven days, I think, and then he was released. He went home. There was no more work for him.

Q. So what it says here is not correct, that after seven days an announcement was made asking workers to go back to their jobs.

A. Well, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. There are some workers who worked for the public cleaning company, and they had to sweep the streets and do whatever they were supposed to do. And other -- Serb workers took up arms and went to fight. So Croatian and Muslims workers had to work at the public utility in charge of cleaning and sweeping.

Q. I'm not going to go into all of that any more, although that's not the way you put it. You said in your statement that people were called upon to go back to their jobs.

Tell me, on page 4, in paragraphs 6 and 7, when speaking about what you call ethnic cleansing which started in May 1992, you say: "The Red Berets, the White Eagles, the Special Forces committed a great many crimes. We did not dare go out during the night, and for the most part we stayed at home. Men were arrested and taken out. There was a lot of looting in town. Women were raped."

And then you proceed to say -- these are all quotations from your ²⁹⁵⁵⁴ statement. "One night around 1.00 a.m., we were returning from a visit we paid to a friend, and by the barracks in my street we came across a large concentration of military vehicles. Every day the activities in the military barracks went up."

Now, isn't this quite contradictory? In one paragraph you say that you did not dare go out during the night, and already in the next paragraph you say that you were returning home at 1.00 a.m. from a visit that you paid to a friend and you passed by the barracks, no more no less, with a large concentration of military vehicles and stepped up activity. So were you locked up in your homes during the night or did you stroll by the barracks at 1.00 in the morning? Not both can be true.

A. The answer to your question is the following, Mr. Milosevic: Well, it all was not in the same order. This is what happened in April 1992, while the war had not broken out yet, and we could still go and visit people, and people could come and visit us, and we could move about freely. However, in that period there was a large concentration of military vehicles and of military forces.

Q. That was not my question. My question was that in one paragraph you say "We did not dare go out," and in the second paragraph you say that you were strolling around at 1.00 in the morning by the barracks.

A. Yes, but in one paragraph there is a description from the war days, if I can put it that way, and this other paragraph involves April 1992, and at that time, war had not broken out yet. However, when the war did start, we did not dare leave our homes, we did not dare go out into our yards after 11:00, and we did not have a chance to go to town or ²⁹⁵⁵⁵ anywhere else.

Q. All right. Well, take a look at this now. In the one but last paragraph on page 6, you say: "A curfew was imposed straight away. From 8.00 until 11:00 there was restriction of movement. Those who were found after a particular time in their own yards were arrested and taken to the barracks at the end of the street." And afterwards you say: "The curfew was gradually extended. It was extended to 1500 hours, at the beginning of June we were allowed to stay outside until 1900 hours." I don't understand any of this. Could you please explain what kind of a curfew is this in the morning and afternoon hours, and when did this curfew start or, rather, end? 8.00, 11:00, 1500, 1900 hours. You refer to all these different times, so --

A. During the first month we were not allowed to move about. The curfew was from 8.00 to 11:00.

Q. In the morning?

A. Yes, in the morning. We only had three hours to go to town or to go back home. However, in the months of June and July, as you said, they extended the time we had available for moving around. So in July and August, during the summer, we could stay outside even until 7:00 in the evening. I mean not stay outside but go to a shop, buy things if we managed to find anything, and then we'd have to go back home.

Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. On page 7, paragraph 3, you say: "I never saw a killing myself, but I heard that when the town was taken, some men were killed in their houses and some women were raped." So as for all the killings that are referred to in your statement, ²⁹⁵⁵⁶ you only know about them from the stories of other people.

A. I am fortunate not to have seen a killing.

Q. You are fortunate because of that, but I'm saying that you never saw a killing yourself.

A. Yes. (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

JUDGE MAY: I think -- just a moment. We will now go into private session, and, Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, we will consider whether you should have any time longer because your time is now up.

[Trial Chamber confers]

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁵⁵⁷ Pages 29557 to 29559 - redacted - private session. ²⁹⁵⁶⁰ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in public session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁵⁶¹ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

JUDGE MAY: Let us not argue about it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will not even refer to the town, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Or anywhere else that she went.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or anywhere else that she went, only the fact that she went to Serbia, which I suppose does not identify her.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So is it true that you stayed with the family of your husband in Serbia, in a town?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that the family of your husband were also Muslims?

A. The woman was Muslim, and the man was Serb.

Q. But they were family of your husband.

A. Yes.

Q. And those relatives of yours lived peacefully in Serbia, and they were able and they could afford to receive refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina, weren't they?

A. They could not really afford to. We had to take care of ourselves.

Q. So nobody in Serbia had any doubts that you were Muslims in that place where you stayed.

A. Correct. ²⁹⁵⁶²

Q. Did anybody harm you in any way because of that fact?

A. No, not at the time.

Q. Do you know that there were 70.000 Muslim refugees in Serbia at the time?

A. I know that there were refugees. I don't know exactly how many right now. But I also know that there was a number of Muslims who were detained in Serbia, specifically from Srebrenica.

Q. Nobody was detained there.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is your last question now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Mrs. 1746, did the authorities of the Republic of Serbia help you get the documents that enabled you to travel on to a third country? Can we conclude that your family, yourself, and other Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina who were escaping the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina found refuge and shelter precisely in Serbia and received there the necessary assistance enabling you to travel on? Is that disputable?

A. I didn't say that we were mistreated or that we did not receive help. I only want to say that I was there myself, Mr. Milosevic, and I was disappointed in your media, and at one point I regretted that I was a Muslim because, watching your news bulletins on the TV and listening to the radio, I heard about Muslims allegedly killing Serbs in Bosnia and alleged mass graves of Serb civilians being discovered in Bosnia. I had been on both sides, and I'm really sorry that I ended up thinking that it was to be regretted that I belonged to either of these nations, either of ²⁹⁵⁶³ these ethnic groups. That's what you flooded the population of Serbia with.

Q. You think that information was untrue?

A. That information was absolutely untrue, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. KAY: Just one brief matter in private session, please.

JUDGE MAY: Private session, please.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁵⁶⁴ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

MS. PACK:

Q. Witness, this is a draft of the first statement that was taken from you in April 2000. It's in English. Does your signature appear on any of the pages of that statement?

A. No.

Q. That statement wasn't read back to you on the first occasion in your own language?

A. No, it was not read out to me in detail. It was not read out to me, not this statement. I'm sorry. Let me add that we were supposed to make another appointment to finalise this and have me sign the statement ²⁹⁵⁶⁵ because the computer had stopped working.

Q. And it was on the second occasion you were seen by members of the Office of the Prosecutor in 2002, April 2002, that you went back through your evidence, made some changes, and then signed the English version of the statement that was read back to you?

A. Yes. Yes, precisely. And we corrected at the same time the errors that were found in the first version. We corrected them together.

MS. PACK: Your Honours, just a brief point of confusion. Perhaps it was my confusion. The second statement doesn't identify the White Eagles as Arkan's White Eagles, that's again something that appears in the first draft.

And very briefly one additional matter. Could the witness please be referred, please, to the second statement in B/C/S.

Q. Look, please, at paragraph 21 of that statement. Witness, you identify Red Berets as being present at the JNA barracks in early April, from early April 1992. The other paramilitaries that you have described, where did you see their base, or did you see where they were based?

A. The Red Berets were at the garrison within the compound of the garrison, whereas White Eagles were scattered around the houses we had vacated. They were around before I left the village and went to town.

MS. PACK: No further questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1746, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go. If you would just wait for the blinds to be drawn.

[The witness withdrew] ²⁹⁵⁶⁶

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Agha, is it for you to call the next witness?

MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls Mr. Esad Velic.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If someone would draw these blinds, please.

MR. AGHA: Your Honour, this witness has facial protection.

JUDGE MAY: Very well, yes.

MR. NICE: While the witness is coming in, may I answer the accused's concern about audio versions of intercepts. He was provided them on the 23rd of October on a CD. If he has trouble with following the method of opening them, one of my staff will help him at the end of the session.

MR. AGHA: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the next witness, could I please address a point of the exhibit photograph of the camp which the accused drew our attention to. This was Exhibit 597, tab 4, and it was a picture of the inside of a hangar. I have been able to find out that that picture was actually taken by a delegation from the CSCE, which was the forerunner to the OSCE, in the end of August, September 1992. So that's for the information of the Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: I don't have the picture with me now, but some of the detainees wore uniforms at the time? The right hand part of the picture. If you check it later.

MR. AGHA: It would seem so, yes.

JUDGE KWON: And some of the detainees are dressed up, and some ²⁹⁵⁶⁷ wore neckties?

MR. AGHA: There are not many with neckties.

[The witness entered court]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

WITNESS: ESAD VELIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, if it is about the neckties in the last photograph, we'll deal with it at the end. Let us hear this witness now.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a 92 bis witness. Examined by Mr. Agha:

Q. Witness, you gave a statement before the Office of the Prosecution on the 31st of October, 1999, which was subsequently certified by members of the Registry on the 31st of May, 2001. You have that statement in front of you. Can you confirm that that is in fact your signature and your statement, please.

A. Yes, that is my signature and that is my statement.

Q. Thank you.

MR. AGHA: May I ask that statement be given an exhibit number, the bis package. ²⁹⁵⁶⁸

THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number is 599.

MR. AGHA: Thank you. Now, Your Honours, this witness is from again a different municipality on which no evidence has yet been led, so if I may very briefly ask you to refer to Exhibit 343, 1, where the witness can kindly please point out on that exhibit on the ELMO the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, where he's from.

Q. Witness, could you please point on the ELMO there whereabouts Bosanska Krupa is on the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. [Indicates]

Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Witness.

MR. AGHA: Your Honours, because we are rather short of time, I propose to briefly skim through the summarisation of this witness's testimony.

Now, the witness, in 1990, was living in Bosanska Krupa, and prior to the multi-party elections he became a member of the SDA. Bosanska Krupa is a 75 per cent Muslim majority municipality, and the SDA won a majority of seats. He then became the first elected president of Bosanska Krupa.

The main difficulty with the SDS party concerned the JNA's involvement in Croatia. The SDA didn't want the JNA to be involved, whereas the SDS did. This led to a confrontation and a demand from the SDS to see the personnel detail of the JNA's conscripts in the area. The SDA didn't allow this, and this led to the JNA attempting to seize the documents.

The SDS then prepared a study of the administrative division of ²⁹⁵⁶⁹ the municipality, and the study was based on a separate ethnic state for the Serbs. The main justification for the SDS wanting a separate municipality was that they could no longer live with the persons who had committed crimes against them during World War II, and this separation would be the first step in creating a Serbian state in the Balkans. Now, the witness also deals with the arrest of Martic and him being released after the arrest warrants were revoked from Belgrade and that Martic met Mladic straight after his release. Concerning the attack on Bosanska Krupa, this occurred just after a meeting on 21st of April, 1992, when a meeting was held in the municipal building attended by EU monitors, himself, who were going to discuss the various controversies.

A JNA general, Ninkovic, came in the meeting, and about 15 minutes after he left the town was shelled as well as shot at by Serbian forces. Very briefly, the witness was in the municipal building, and he did see about 25 to 30 casualties. Bosanska Krupa is divided by the River Una, and on account of the Serb shelling, the Muslims were forced to the left bank.

Later on, the witness noticed that nearly all the houses had been destroyed, including the mosque and the Catholic church on the side which the Serbs were occupying.

So that's in essence the testimony of this witness and I have no further questions or exhibits to run through him. That ends of the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. ²⁹⁵⁷⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have I understood this correctly, Mr. May? This witness only has facial protection. His name is not protected? I can address him by his name, can't I?

JUDGE MAY: That is so. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Velic, I see from your statement that before the conflict broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you held many important offices in the territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. You were a judge of the municipal court, the public prosecutor, a magistrate, head of the 4th of July Company. According to my information, for a while you were a public self-management attorney; is that right?

A. No, it's not right. I was never a magistrate, and I was never the public defender. I was the district public attorney for three years, though.

Q. As soon as the SDA was established, you became a member of the Executive Board of the SDA for Bosanska Krupa; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And in September 1991, at the internal elections of the SDA, you were elected president of the SDA in Bosanska Krupa; isn't that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And now, Mr. Velic, when you talk about party activities in the territory of your municipality in the period that preceded the conflict, first of all, on page 2, in paragraph 9 you talk about the founding Assembly of the SDS, and then on page 3, in paragraph 1, you say that the SDA had its founding Assembly on the 31st of July, 1990. Is that right? ²⁹⁵⁷¹

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. While following your statement, one could come to the wrong conclusion that it was the SDS that was founded first and then the SDA, which certainly was not the case; is that right?

A. I never said that.

Q. When was the SDA established in relation to the SDS? How much earlier?

A. Perhaps a month or two earlier, but I don't know exactly.

Q. All right. In view of the fact that you were invited as a guest to the founding Assembly of the Serb Democratic Party --

A. Well, I was not invited myself, but representatives of the SDA were invited, and we agreed that I would attend inter alia.

Q. All right. They did not invite you by name and surname, but they asked -- they invited the representatives of the leadership of the SDA to attend the founding Assembly of the SDS.

A. That's right.

Q. Then you were appointed to go on behalf of the SDA to attend the founding Assembly of the SDS.

A. Others attended too, but I was the one who took it upon myself to address this founding Assembly with a short statement.

Q. All right. And on which date was this founding Assembly of the SDS held?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. And what was the content of this short statement that you made when addressing the founding Assembly of the Serb Democratic ²⁹⁵⁷² Party?

A. As far as I can remember, it was a courtesy statement, extending greetings, and I expressed my hope that the parties of the two peoples would find a common language in terms of resolving Bosnian affairs.

Q. All right. You were born in a village which was in the biggest local commune in Bosanska Krupa.

A. No, Maglic is not in the area of Buzim. It never belonged to the municipality of Buzim but the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

Q. Was Buzim a municipality then or was it a local commune within Bosanska Krupa?

A. Well, it was a local commune within the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

Q. All right.

A. But organisationally, they were separate or, rather, the SDA organisations were different. There were two SDA organisations in the territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, one for Buzim and one for Bosanska Krupa.

Q. Oh, I see, although this was a single municipality. And since 1995 these were separate municipalities?

A. Yes, that's what I found out later, towards the end of 1995, that Buzim acquired the status of a proper municipality.

Q. Is it correct that Buzim was almost completely populated by Muslims, namely since the Second World War when several thousand Serbs in Buzim were killed and expelled from the area?

A. In Buzim or, rather, in the community of the municipality of ²⁹⁵⁷³ Buzim, that included seven local communes as far as I can remember, for the most part the population was Muslim in 1999. I cannot corroborate your statement that during the Second World War several thousand Serbs were expelled from that area.

Q. I did not say expelled, I said killed and expelled.

A. I cannot corroborate that in particular because I was born in 1952 and this has not been recorded in history anywhere.

Q. All right. There are documents about this, but there's no need for me to discuss the matter with you any further. And do you know that the initiative to establish a separate Buzim municipality came into being not in 1995 but the initiative was launched much earlier?

A. Well, that's right, because Buzim had the status of municipality all the way up to 1963 within Bosnia-Herzegovina. After this reorganisation, it lost that status, and the local population expressed their wish to have that status returned to them, and this was finally done towards the end of 1995.

Q. So until the 1960s, it was a municipality and then this new organisation took place in the 1960s, and then this larger municipality of Bosanska Krupa was set up and then in 1995 again it became a separate municipality.

A. Well, roughly it was that way although the organisation was not after 1963 and then in 1995. The municipality of Bosanska Krupa in 1963 got the status of district or something to that effect. Buzim had the status of municipality in that organisation. ²⁹⁵⁷⁴

Q. All right. You say on page 4, in paragraph 5 that the Serb Democratic Party of Bosanska Krupa, in 1991, elaborated a study on the administrative division of the municipality, and you say that they justified this by the necessity to establish a separate Serb municipality.

A. Not the need to establish a separate Serb municipality, but ultimately to create a united Serb state in the Balkans, as was written in the last sentence quite specifically of that study.

Q. Oh, not municipality but state, as a matter of fact.

A. Yes, that's right. They said that this was the first step towards the establishment of a unified Serb state in the Balkans.

Q. All right. Already in the next paragraph you called this initiative of the local Serbs ridiculous because, as you say, this was possible to decide only at the level of the municipality and the republic, by the republican Assembly.

A. Yes, as far as borders of municipalities wee concerned, according to the regulations that were then in force, it was only the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina that could reach decisions to that effect.

I don't know if it's a ridiculous term. I wouldn't call it ridiculous. I would call this a very serious signal which indicated what would happen in the future.

Q. All right. Tell me, are you aware that Serbs from the area of Bosanska Krupa did not intend for this idea, for this proposal of theirs which, as you say under the legislation was in the competence of the republican and the municipal assemblies, did not intend for this idea to ²⁹⁵⁷⁵ be implemented by passing these organs? They just floated it to you as the SDA in order to reach an agreement, and I suppose it was up to the authorities that you enumerated to vote on it.

A. The problem was that they insisted on inter-party negotiations concerning that proposal, and we wanted it to be submitted to the Municipal Assembly of Bosanska Krupa, and they were against it for reasons I don't understand.

Q. Yes. But in the municipal assembly, you and the Serbian Democratic Party received -- in fact shared all the deputies between you.

A. Well, practically that's true, with the exception of five deputies who represented the then-SDP.

Q. So your party had the majority in the Municipal Assembly?

A. Yes, with 64 per cent of MPs.

Q. So they suggested it to you, the Muslim party, in order to reach an agreement on a joint proposal that would then be submitted to the authorities who were called upon to decide.

A. They did not suggest that we submit it to the authorities. They suggested instead that it be a subject of bilateral negotiations between the SDA and the SDS, and we did not want that.

Q. That's what I wanted to ask you. Is it true that it was you, yourself, who gave full support to this proposal of the SDS, judging it as completely legitimate and grounded in the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. I never made that statement, but in my eyes, every proposal for a territorial division in Bosnia and Herzegovina was legitimate and legal ²⁹⁵⁷⁶ with the proviso that constitutional and legal procedure was observed. And in this particular case, they were not ready to abide by that procedure. They showed that much.

Q. You said yourself that it was a legitimate proposal and good enough to be discussed according to legal procedure.

A. Yes. If it was submitted to legal authorities.

Q. But you do not dispute that it was a legal, legitimate proposal?

A. I cannot remember my exact words. It was too long ago. But I believe that I could have said something to that effect, because such an initiative could have legally originated from the SDS. But I want to make this reservation: Not to divide the municipality according to the criteria they suggested but according to various economic and other criteria.

Q. But is it true that when justifying this proposal to members of your own party, and explaining it, you said it was based on Article 265 of the then constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that this initiative was in keeping with the constitution and that from the viewpoint of legality, it cannot be challenged?

A. That initiative was never challenged because nobody was given a chance to challenge it or consider it, because they refused to start a serious discussion before the competent authorities, either in the municipality or in the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. I understand that. But is it true that if we continue with this example of the SDS, you made a similar proposal with relation to Buzim, then the largest municipality within Bosanska Krupa and nowadays a ²⁹⁵⁷⁷ separate municipality?

A. As you said yourself, that initiative existed even before and had been submitted to the republican Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, the republican Assembly referred this work, in fact suspended the work on this proposal relating to Buzim and seven other municipalities until the conflict started.

Q. It doesn't really matter whether it was finalised or not. Is it true that representatives of the SDA at one of these inter-party negotiations demanded from the representatives of the SDS to present a feasibility study for the division of the municipality and received that study?

A. The proposal for making Buzim a separate municipality was based on specific justified criteria, whereas the Serb proposal was based only on the separation of Muslim and Serb communities.

Q. Well, since this is completely new to me, I understand that this feasibility study was titled "Feasibility study on the social and economic justification of the division of Bosanska Krupa municipality."

A. In our everyday work we just referred to it as "study."

Q. Did you receive that study for your consideration from the representatives of the SDS and got a copy that you could discuss?

A. We did get a copy, and within the SDS we considered it and found that it was geared at ethnic division of the municipality and was unacceptable to us as such. We were not given a chance to follow the legal administrative procedure in the municipal and republican Assemblies to explain our views. ²⁹⁵⁷⁸

Q. All right, Mr. Velic. Is it true that you gave up considering the idea further due to pressure from the top echelons of the SDS -- SDA because the Muslim community that lived on the left bank of the Una, 9.000 of them, were a minority compared to Serbs?

A. That is not true. If you check the statistics for the municipality of Bosanska Krupa - and I'm very familiar with it - for the 1990s and later on, you will see that on the left bank of the Una River there were more Muslims than Serbs. So it could not have affected Buzim as a separate municipality.

Q. I'm talking about the left bank of the Una.

A. The Muslim population was the majority in both cases.

Q. It is up to me to ask and up to you to answer.

A. I have answered and I'm absolutely sure of what I'm saying. In both versions, the Muslim population was the majority on both banks of the Una River. On of the left bank in particular.

Q. Since you supported the idea at the time, tell me, why are you against it now?

A. I never said that I supported it, and I did not support it. I said, on the contrary, that the proposal of the SDS was based only on ethnic considerations.

Q. Tell me, according to what criteria and with what motivation did Buzim become a separate municipality in 1995?

A. For reasons that existed even during the war. Buzim was a separate entity removed about 30 kilometres from Bosanska Krupa. It was justified for it to become a separate municipality. ²⁹⁵⁷⁹

Q. Did it maybe happen because in 1995, after the signing of the Dayton Accords, there were no Serbs any more in Buzim because they had left the area en masse because most of their territory was given over to the federation?

A. As for how and why Serbs left the territory of Bosanska Krupa, I only learned about it from the media. I wasn't there. I was not a witness of these events. However, I do not believe that the reason for the secession, quote unquote, of the Buzim municipality is the one you quoted.

Q. Tell me, on page 3, paragraph 12, you speak about the ethnic structure of the senior staff of the SDA. You say that Mehmed Mahic was on top; chief of police was your own brother, Semsudin Velic; chief of Territorial Defence was first Hasan Sisic then Hasim Djulic. Is that true?

A. Yes, this is correct information, and this ethnic structure was established after the elections in 1990.

Q. Is it true that the only municipal official who was a Serb at the time was Gojko Klickovic, who was vice-president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly?

A. That's not correct because even the then-president of the SDS, Miroslav Vjestica, was the secretary of the Secretary for Agriculture; Mirko Orelj was secretary of the Secretariat for Land Management; and the SDS nominated another person for the post of commander of the police in Bosanska Krupa. Those changes were implemented to the full in Bosanska Krupa, and they were based on inter-party agreements that were fully ²⁹⁵⁸⁰ accepted by the SDS on the basis of election results and the ethnic structure of the municipality itself.

JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you now. We've gone beyond our time. We're going to adjourn. You will have 40 minutes cross-examination left on Wednesday.

Mr. Velic, could I ask you to be back, please, on Wednesday morning at 9.00 to continue with your evidence. And I must warn you formally, as we must warn all witnesses, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

Mr. Nice, yes.

MR. NICE: I don't know if you received a note that there were just a couple of matters I'd like to raise procedurally before the Court adjourns today.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We've got the witness here. Can you deal with them briefly while he's here?

MR. NICE: They don't concern him at all.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. It means taking the blinds down.

MR. NICE: Yes, I understand. They relate to a recent decision that the Chamber has made on our omnibus motion for additional witnesses, and the Chamber will recall making its order on the 30th of September where we were to provide the list, following which we provided the schedule, which is in a sense the list, and the application to have added to the other list of witnesses various named witnesses. May this be in private session, please. Yes. ²⁹⁵⁸¹

JUDGE MAY: Shall we allow the witness to go, because he doesn't want to hang about.

Mr. Velic, if you'd like to leave. This is something which doesn't concern your evidence at all. If you would just wait a moment while we take the blinds down.

[The witness withdrew]

[Private session] (redacted)

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(redacted) ²⁹⁵⁸² Page 29582 - redacted - private session.

²⁹⁵⁸³ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.