Milosevic Transcript 2003-12-02

²⁹⁸³⁷

Tuesday, 2 December 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

WITNESS: Witness C-[Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [No interpretation]

JUDGE MAY: We're not getting the English interpretation.

THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?

JUDGE MAY: Start again, if you would, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. 57, in paragraph 8 of your statement you say that your commander, and I'm not going to mention his name because we're trying not to have you identified, so your commander while your unit was staying at this particular place where you were supposed to be before you went to Erdut, your commander said that there were over 3.000 Croatian MUP members there and that you were in for a serious clash; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. However, you claim that that information was not correct and that you were told this only to be intimidated. Is that right? Is that what you feel today as well?

A. That's what I think. That's what I feel. 3.000 is an enormous ²⁹⁸³⁸ figure. It's more than an infantry brigade. I don't think that there could have been that many MUP forces in that area.

Q. You think there couldn't have been that many forces, but tell me, as a professional soldier, are soldiers' lives in war saved by warnings in terms of numbers of the enemy and the necessity to exercise caution? Perhaps this had to do with stepped-up caution, this information that your commander had.

A. Quite possible. As I say, first and foremost, I am sure that it wasn't that particular figure. It is quite certain -- quite possible, rather, that he wanted to achieve the effect that you are talking about, namely that people should exercise utmost caution in order to preserve their lives. However, I'm saying that this had a different effect; people were terrified.

Q. So tell me, how many of them were there, then, in your estimate? Because you say there were 3.000 of them.

A. I think there were a couple of hundred of them. Three hundred, in my assessment.

Q. All right. Since you explained awhile ago that it was quite possible that such information was given to you in order to exercise caution and to save soldiers' lives, at any rate, that information was not given with ill intentions. I assume that it was in the interest of saving people's lives.

A. I cannot be the judge of that, whether there were any ill intentions, as you said. I don't know, but I just know that the effect was very bad on the reserve force, very bad, and I said that to the ²⁹⁸³⁹ subordinates at the company meeting. I said precisely what you said just now, sir, that people have to be cautious. I didn't say then, no, don't worry this is impossible, et cetera. I said that this was the orders we got from the superior command, and then the problems became even greater. People were simply frightened, if you can understand that.

Q. I can understand that. But this information was not ill intentioned, not in any way. It wasn't given in order to score propaganda points but in order to step up caution.

A. I've already said from this distance, I cannot assess -- but, well, let's put it that way, yes. There shouldn't be any ill intention involved. I don't see any ill intention, but my comment had to do with the effect that I referred to, namely that people were truly terrified and frightened.

Q. So you don't think there was any ill intention there. In paragraph 10 you refer to a group of volunteers that arrived, and among them you recognised an acquaintance of yours. I'm not going to mention his name now because you are a protected witness. Is that right?

A. Yes, yes, that's right. That is paragraph 10, yes.

Q. You say that at that time, as far as you know, he was an official of --

A. Yes.

Q. -- the Serb Radical Party; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. It's not that I am familiar with this. I know. I quite simply know this.

Q. Okay. That's what you state here. And you say they were moving ²⁹⁸⁴⁰ towards Prigrevice where the centre was of some movement of theirs, from where they were illegally transferred to Croatia. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. At that time I did not know any details about this centre, but later on a great deal was written about this centre in the newspapers. Interviews were given, et cetera. But at that time, I knew about it only superficially on the basis of a few sentences I heard from this man.

Q. I'm not talking about interviews. I'm just trying to get you to confirm or deny the information I have, namely, according to the information I have, the Serb Radical Party gave volunteers for the JNA and later for the Territorial Defence. Did they join the JNA and the TO as volunteers or did they have some formations of their own? My information is that they gave volunteers to the JNA and the Territorial Defence. Is that right or is that not right?

A. My information, as I mentioned, I think, in this paragraph 10, is -- this is a quotation: "We are going to the other side before you to help you, to prepare for your arrival." They did go. That's a fact. First to Prigrevice and then to Borovo Selo. And they joined the Territorial Defence there. That is a fact.

Q. A fact. That was at the very beginning of the conflict in Eastern Slavonia; is that right?

A. Yes. That's what I said. That's the date. It was around the month of July.

Q. All right. That means when they went there to join the Territorial Defence they had nothing to do with the JNA or any authorities ²⁹⁸⁴¹ in Serbia; is that right?

A. I think that can be seen from this paragraph 10, and on the basis of some reactions here, they had nothing to do with us then. They had no connections with us. I think that this can be seen from my statement. As a matter of fact, I got into trouble because they stopped by.

Q. In paragraph 11 and paragraph 12, you say that on the 25th of July, 1991, late in the evening, the area of Erdut, Daljske Planine, the Marinovci farm, and the water plant building were heavily shelled; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. On the basis of what you've said, it seems that these targets were engaged for no reason whatsoever. I'm asking you this because you claim that the radio and television, in connection with this attack, said that this was response to numerous mortar fire provocations from these positions, and it's my understanding that you are saying there was no such mortar fire.

A. There wasn't any such mortar fire.

Q. On which date was your unit positioned for combat for that attack there?

A. You will have to clarify this question.

Q. On which date did you reach this particular combat position?

A. The 1st of July we arrived in the broader region. The beginning of July, to be precise.

Q. You targeted, as you say, for no reason the Dalj heights and these other targets. ²⁹⁸⁴²

A. The end of July.

Q. Oh, the end of July. And what you know from that moment when you arrived until the moment of the attack, there were no operations from the other side; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. That's what I know.

Q. Do you offer the possibility that they were there before you came?

A. What do you mean?

Q. That JNA targets were engaged.

A. Well, my unit established the position there at the beginning of July.

Q. Before your unit came, was there any mortar fire coming from that area and affecting that area there?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. But you don't know what happened before that. You cannot say whether there was or wasn't any mortar fire before that; isn't that right?

A. I don't know. I really don't know anything about mortar fire before or after that. I really don't.

Q. All right. When you say that you don't know, then you cannot preclude the possibility of there having been fire before that. I don't see why anybody would invent that kind of thing if it never happened, because mortar fire is not something that can be a secret.

A. Well, that's precisely what I said. I would have had to know about this. That is a very public thing.

Q. A very public thing. And that is what was said, that there was mortar fire coming from there. I assume that nobody could have claimed ²⁹⁸⁴³ that it was coming from there if there wasn't any.

A. I claim that there wasn't any mortar fire.

JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go over this. You have heard what the witness has said. Arguing with him is a waste of time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In paragraph 13, it says that on the 27th of July, you received a written order from your command, and in it it says that upon reaching the march objective, separate the warring sides on a particular line.

A. Yes. I think that we discussed that at the previous hearing. I think that we discussed that order.

Q. We covered it completely. And there's no doubt that it contained only that objective; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. To separate the warring sides.

A. That's what I stated here. It can be seen right here. That was the official part that we studied.

Q. All right. Tell me, now, I'm not asking you to repeat everything that we concluded last time, but we're talking about these two sides. Was it the ZNG on one side and the Territorial Defence, the Serb Territorial Defence on the other side?

A. Specifically the MUP of Croatia. I don't know whether the National Guards Corps, the ZNG, was formed somewhat later, but usually we used the term the members of the MUP of Croatia.

Q. And on the other side there were the local territorials? ²⁹⁸⁴⁴

A. The local population, the Serb population.

Q. Oh, the local population.

A. Yes.

Q. Was your objective to separate these two warring sides?

A. Yes, according to this order, that was the objective, to separate the warring sides.

Q. This was a clearly stated military objective, why you entered the area?

A. Yes, on these orders. Yes. It is quite clear. You are quite right.

Q. (redacted) then stopped the column that you were moving in before crossing the Danube, and he gave you final instructions to take good care of yourself and the men and to carry out this objective.

A. I just have to ask you not to mention any names. Please. I have the status of a protected witness. You've just mentioned the colonel's name now.

Q. But he was not in your unit. That is why I think that he is beyond --

A. I beg your pardon. He was the second person in my chain of command in my brigade.

JUDGE MAY: Let's stop. Let's go into closed session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) ²⁹⁸⁴⁵ Page 29845 - redacted - private session.

²⁹⁸⁴⁶ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So this section can no doubt be dealt with in open court, because ²⁹⁸⁴⁷ you say that this machine-gun fire that we discussed did not come from the positions of the MUP of Croatia but from the positions of the JNA. Is that right, Mr. C-057?

A. I gave this statement after this event, but had I given it in 1992, 1993 -- I mean, whenever I talked about this, I was sure that the gunfire was coming from the MUP positions in the forest. I was deeply convinced of that. In this context, I never would have said otherwise had this man not come. I did not socialise with him personally that much, but he hinted that he wanted to talk to me about something that was bothering him terribly, and then he told me about this. And it was only then that I found out. So it was much later.

This man is alive and well, thank goodness. So if there is anything controversial, I'm going to make an additional statement. I don't see why he would make up a nebulous story. I believe that he did not lie to me.

Well, this is the comment I made here anyway in paragraph 15.

Q. Mr. C-057, you yourself used the word "nebulous story" yourself a minute ago, and the story consists of the following: That gunfire was opened from JNA positions.

A. Yes, sir. Well, you can see it here. That's what is written here, how it was opened.

Q. Did he give you some explanation? It is not possible that it could have come from JNA positions. You were an officer then. Could gunfire be opened from JNA positions against the JNA?

A. Well, you know at least what the possible is and what actual life ²⁹⁸⁴⁸ is. Very often we were given one kind of orders and other things happened. We discussed it at the last sitting. This is a detail which may be important for this Court, so if it is, I can give his details. I do not think he lied. Knowing him, I don't think he lied. He's not that kind of person.

Q. What did he tell you? Why was gunfire opened then? Did they think that the enemy was there or did they target you intentionally?

A. No. He said that they shot at us intentionally. That's why this is an interesting detail. I would not have mentioned it if it was mistaken gunfire. That happens in any army. It also can happen in any army, that there is friendly fire coming from the same positions. And he talked to me then. He told me this story. It's not that we particularly socialised before that. You know what it's like when somebody first comes to see you. He came and brought some coffee, came with his wife, we had a few drinks, and he said that he had a story to tell me. And he told me this story and I looked at him the way you're looking at me right now, but knowing the way the situation was then, it wasn't that I was that surprised; anything was possible.

Q. You say that you destroyed, demolished, one Croatian house in Erdut owned by an official of the HDZ. That's paragraph 16.

A. Yes. They called it secretary of the HDZ.

Q. And you say you did it on the orders of your commander; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that a verbal order that he gave you to demolish that house or was it written order? ²⁹⁸⁴⁹

A. No. I think that a messenger on a motorbike brought me that order, a verbal order, because the two of us were on the opposite ends of that settlement, and I was given that order. This verbal order was conveyed to me by a messenger on a motorbike.

Q. I'm not sure how to understand this, because I don't know about this event. I'm only looking at your statement, and I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 16 where you say that, "Immediately afterwards, the order arrived from the command to the effect that not a single house should be demolished." Is that so?

A. Yes, but it must have been --

Q. If I understand you correctly, that house was destroyed. The command must have noticed it, and then the order came not to demolish any more houses.

A. That's what it says in my statement. It might have been an arbitrary order given by my commander which was immediately revoked by the superior command.

Q. Did you intervene later? Did you discuss it with the superior command? How come you destroyed that house? Because they gave you orders not to destroy any houses.

A. No. After demolishing that one, I didn't destroy any other houses. You don't discuss orders. The other order came very quickly after I destroyed that one. So I stopped demolishing.

Q. In the next paragraph, 17, you say that you searched on that day a facility of the MUP of Croatia which was part of the Erdut winery, and you say that you found huge quantities of military equipment and a batch of ²⁹⁸⁵⁰ personal documents, IDs. Would that confirm what your superior officer had told you at the outset, namely, that there is a large number of members of the MUP of Croatia in Erdut?

A. It confirms the assumption I stated earlier, that there were about a few hundred of them, because that was the holding capacity of that facility.

Q. Did you find that weaponry?

A. I didn't find the weaponry, although we kept looking for it, my partner and I who did the search. We wanted to find Kalashnikovs or of Hungarian or Romanian make, but we only found parts of equipment. And I said parts of what? Parts of the US Thomson submachine-gun and cleaning kits for the Slovenian sub-machine-guns made by the Gorenje factory. And we noted because it was curious that the Slovenians had started manufacturing sub-machine-guns.

Q. I seem to remember something like that, that Gorenje did produce some machine-guns.

In paragraph 18 it says that only about 10 per cent of the population remained the village, of Serb ethnicity; otherwise, it was abandoned, that village.

A. Correct.

Q. Those people that remained were mainly elderly people?

A. Yes, old people.

Q. And all Croat inhabitants had left the village; correct?

A. Most of them. There was this couple, this married couple that I mentioned somewhere. They were younger people, relatively speaking. ²⁹⁸⁵¹

Q. They stayed?

A. They left later or they went missing, I don't know.

Q. But you found, when you came, only 10 per cent of the population in that village, whereas the other residents, mainly of Croat ethnicity, had left. That was before you entered that village; correct?

A. Yes. Yes. The residents had left the village before we came in.

Q. The reason for that was that they were afraid of the impending battles.

A. I think the shelling had an adverse effect, and they must have been afraid. They had left, I suppose, because they were afraid. Otherwise, they would have stayed. I'm only speaking about what we found in that village on the day we captured it.

Q. But in any case, nobody expelled them from the village. They were afraid of upcoming conflicts. You didn't drive them out.

A. We didn't drive anybody out. I'm describing the situation as we found it.

Q. But I suppose -- do you know by any chance what was normally the ratio of Croat and Serb population of that village? Because I suppose some Serbs must have also left after the shelling.

A. I don't know whether it is really advisable for me to give such estimates, but I believe the ratio was 70 to 30, or maybe 75 to 25 in favour of the Croat population. And please, take this with a grain of salt because this is a very rough estimate. I'm making this estimate based on the size of the cemetery, not a census.

Q. I will take it with a grain of salt, but you as a soldier must ²⁹⁸⁵² understand that if somebody is fleeing out of fear from shelling, which is what you said yourself, I suppose that this fear must have been shared by both parts of the population. Why would Serbs not be afraid of the shelling? Why would they not flee?

A. I think it is very clear from my statement what happened. Very few residents of that village stayed behind.

Q. Those people who stayed, if they were elderly, were those who found it hard to run away.

A. They stayed to look after their houses.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must ask you one question which the witness might consider as identifying, Mr. May, but I want one thing cleared up. Just one question.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Into private session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted) ²⁹⁸⁵³ Pages 29853 to 29856 - redacted - private session. ²⁹⁸⁵⁷ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So in the village that we have been talking about, you say the local Serbs had M-48 rifles and sub-machine-guns, M-53. Those were weapons that the JNA was not using. So these were weapons of the Territorial Defence; is that right?

A. Yes. These were weapons of the Territorial Defence. However, I think it is a good thing to mention here that in the late 1980s, the Federal Secretariat for National Defence issued an order that all the depots of the Territorial Defence should be placed under JNA command. I remember that very well. This was in the late 1980s. It was done in two ways; either entire depots were taken from the -- by the JNA for safeguarding, or weapons were simply taken out of these TO depots and put into storage at JNA barracks. I'm sure that this order can be found.

Q. It had to do with all of Yugoslavia.

A. Yes. Later on I learned from the media -- I read an interview of ²⁹⁸⁵⁸ that Martin Spegelj, that former JNA general, and he also mentions that order, and he says that there was some kind of a mistake, that a certain number of rifles were simply forgotten, and they welcomed these rifles, especially at the initial stage of the establishment of the National Guards Corps. And I know of that order because this was in peacetime, and I, as an officer, escorted some of these groups that transferred the weapons from one place to another; explosives, weapons, et cetera.

Q. Since you say that this had to do with the defence of a village that was predominantly Serb populated, can you say a bit more precisely who they were defending themselves from?

A. The defence of the village was organised in the following way: They did not allow MUP forces to enter.

Q. The MUP forces.

A. Yes, although there had been no skirmishes. The entire problem I am aware of in this connection has to do with the following: They did not allow ambulances to pass through that village as they were driving to Osijek after our bombings. So then they had to transport their wounded along the Drava and Danube rivers by boats to Osijek.

Q. I have to hurry because my time will run out. Tell me, please, in Dalj - and you mentioned that in paragraph 24 - you found the members of some volunteer unit; is that right?

A. Yes. Two.

Q. Two?

A. I think I found two. There at the entrance. They had come to get some meat from a deep freezer or something like that. Never mind. ²⁹⁸⁵⁹

Q. You say that they were friendly to you and that they were under the command of the Territorial Defence of Borovo Selo; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. I spent about 10 or 15 minutes chatting to them there. They came at the period when there was no electricity. So since there were a lot of volunteers in Borovo Selo, they wanted to get the meat out of the deep freezer so that it wouldn't go bad.

Q. Oh, so they came for the meat.

A. Yes.

Q. So these volunteers were not within the JNA at the time, and they were not under the command of some JNA unit; is that right?

A. No. They were within the defence of Borovo Selo, part of the defence of Borovo Selo.

Q. The Territorial Defence of Borovo Selo.

A. Yes, the Territorial Defence of Borovo Selo. Volunteers.

Q. Tell me, your own reservists, and there were some there no doubt, I assume that you had some reservists in your unit as well, did they loot any abandoned houses or any other facilities in the villages that you passed through?

A. Yes, they did.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the question. The witness also said that he could not hear the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What do you mean? How did you allow them to do that?

A. Well, nobody allowed them to do that, nobody. It's not only I. Other officers also did not allow this. They tried to ban it. ²⁹⁸⁶⁰

Q. Is it true that precisely for stopping such activities a military police was brought in?

A. Yes.

Q. When I say your reservists, your unit, did anybody steal anything, any person who was within your unit?

A. Well, not somebody; I think a lot of people were involved in looting.

Q. Were you in a position to arrest them, punish them?

A. No. No. I threatened to court-martial all of them, and I said that I'd search the entire unit. And I said that if I found anything on anyone, that I would certainly report that to the superior command. This military police unit that came was composed of reservists, so when they were supposed to search for these stolen goods, they warned them beforehand. They'd say, for example, that tomorrow at 5.00 they would be searched, so if they had anything that had been looted, they should hide it.

Q. I don't understand this. This is theft from abandoned facilities; is that right?

A. Yes. They were looking for valuables.

Q. Theft from abandoned houses. So it's not that they were seizing anything from people. They were -- they were taking this from abandoned houses.

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁸⁶¹ (redacted). Later on, I went along with the military police unit to provide security for them because they were also breaking and entering into houses because they believed that there could be members of the MUP inside. And then the reservists came, and they took objects that they thought they might need.

To the best of my ability and using all the powers I had then, I fought against this, but these mechanisms were not in place. The military police themselves would tell these people, "We're going to come and search you, and you can hide your stolen goods." So they say, "See, you had no need to accuse us of this kind of thing," and that was it.

Q. All right. I assume that since we've clarified that during the first part, that you also cautioned your soldiers in terms of the Geneva Conventions and how civilians should be treated and possible prisoners of war. I imagine that was your duty.

A. Yes, according to orders, because I had to issue the same kind of order. That was the logical sequence of events.

Q. When entering Aljmas - these are paragraphs 30 and 31 - again you found a completely deserted village; is that right?

A. Yes. That can be seen from the statement. Tell me once again, what is the paragraph?

Q. 30 and 31.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you say something why this village was completely deserted? What were the reasons?

A. This was a Croatian village. The population had abandoned it ²⁹⁸⁶² after our bombing in late July. They got onto boats and went to Osijek.

Q. And now in paragraph 32 you talk about some unit of a certain Captain Kole. Is this again a volunteer unit or a paramilitary unit? What is this? Because I see further on in your statement that a major - and I am not going to mention his name, but I assume this is a JNA major - you informed this major of their presence, and he said that they should be arrested if they showed up again; is that right?

A. Yes. That was a self-established group, a self-styled group.

Q. A self-established group and a self-styled captain. This was not a regular unit and he was not a proper captain?

A. Yes, these were four or five pals from Dalj, and they had some uniforms sewn for them. There were never such uniforms before or later. And they also made some berets in very striking colours.

Q. What colour?

A. Very intensive red or pink or something like that. Well, whatever. But what was this all about? I asked my subordinates to patrol the village, and then they told me that these people had arrived there.

Q. And then when you informed the major, the major said if they show up again, arrest them.

A. Yes. I caught them, actually when my subordinates informed me about this, I caught them with a vehicle. I mean, I am not going to lie or anything, but they had a vehicle and they had bottles of gas inside. And since they were rather arrogant, and I said, "What kind of captain are you? Where are you from?" They said they were from the Territorial Defence of Dalj and they needed this for their headquarters, and I said, ²⁹⁸⁶³ "Well, I'll inform my command about this." And I did inform this major, but then he had already known about them. He actually laughed and he said, "Oh, he's showed up again." And he said, "Well, I'm going to arrest him if I see him again, and you arrest him if he shows up again," and that's what he said.

Q. Thank you. I wanted you to clarify that, and thank you very much.

A. He never showed up again. Well, it's not that I threatened to arrest him, but I did say that I would inform the superior command, and that's where the story of the arrest came from.

Q. All right. And when Sarvas was taken, you say that a JNA aircraft was gunned down. Who gunned it down?

A. The Croatian forces.

Q. And when you entered Sarvas, you found members of the local Territorial Defence there who had already entered the village, and also members of the engineering unit who were de-mining the area; is that right?

A. Yes, that is what it says in my statement.

Q. All right. So there were mines placed throughout the area by the MUP forces?

A. Just a moment, please. At that time, I came across -- or, rather, not I but a vehicle behind me got off the asphalt road and there was a booby-trap there. Fortunately, no one was wounded, and also the vehicle itself was not damaged, and that is why we had to get rid of the mines.

Q. Who took Sarvas?

A. We took Sarvas. ²⁹⁸⁶⁴

Q. In mid-October, as you say here in paragraph 37, your unit in concert with other JNA units carried out an unsuccessful attack against Borovo Naselje.

A. Borovo Naselje.

Q. One of your reservists got killed then. (redacted)

Q. Was the attack unsuccessful because the enemy was stronger?

A. The enemy was not stronger. In my opinion, the attack was not prepared properly and not planned properly. I did not take part in it, but as far as I know, it was an ill-conceived attack and also the units were not engaged properly, and that is why it failed.

Q. All right. In paragraph 38 -- I'm sorry. I've already asked you this. We've gone through that, so let me try to cut things short.

JUDGE MAY: You've got five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I'm trying.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your statement, you refer to the death of General Bratic who was then replaced by General Andrija Biorcevic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. It was the corps commander who was killed?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell me how great the losses were sustained by the JNA in all these clashes that were taking place in Eastern Slavonia?

A. Well, it depended on the unit involved. I've already said that during the last session. From the 2nd until the 18th, I had 27 casualties ²⁹⁸⁶⁵ altogether, persons killed and wounded. So that meant 30 per cent losses within my unit. These are losses that I think --

Q. These are very high losses. They would be considered very high under any circumstances.

A. Losing a single man is too much, but this was a great loss, and I made every effort.

Q. In paragraph 50, you actually say that you sustained major losses because of strong mortar fire and fire coming from hand-held rocket launchers.

A. Just give me the paragraph, please.

Q. 50.

A. Well, let's not waste time over trying to find this paragraph. There was strong gunfire coming in, anti-armour sniper fire, gunfire, very strong.

Q. Mr. 57, let us just get one thing clear: You were up against a very strong and well-equipped enemy. You are talking about strong gunfire, firing coming from sniper rifles, hand-held rocket launchers and so on.

A. I'm going to repeat once again: It's not that they were that strong; they were well organised, and their gunfire was very precise. But -- yes, well, I will agree. It was strong gunfire, yes. It's enough to have two mortars that are properly engaged and then this means that there will be great losses. I'm talking about the pontoon bridge.

Q. And later on you saw the local Serbs returning, those who had fled from Luzac beforehand? ²⁹⁸⁶⁶

A. Yes, yes. I don't know which paragraph this is in, but I remember that, yes.

Q. In paragraph 58, you say that as soon as they came back to the village, they set up a prison for captured members of the MUP; is that right?

A. Yes. There were members of the MUP there, too, but I think that their Croat neighbours who were not members of the MUP were imprisoned too.

Q. Did you tell anyone about what you found out? Did you take any measures?

A. No. I held my positions, and my superior command was in that very same village. The command followed me right into the village. I was not at the village, I did not stay there, and the headquarters were only three houses away from that prison.

Q. Please look at paragraph 60. Since you say that a certain commander appeared.

A. Yes.

Q. I'm not going to mention his name now, because you cautioned us against that awhile ago. And he asked what was going on and what the targets were, and you said that he could shoot wherever he wanted to since there were a great many targets. Is that what you said to him?

A. No. He said, "What is the most important target to be engaged?" And since everything was targeted, everything was a target, and I told him he could target whatever he wanted to.

Q. I understand that, but if I understood you correctly, you said ²⁹⁸⁶⁷ there were a great many targets. Therefore, there were many military targets on the enemy side; is that right?

A. Let's be quite specific. These are factories. That position in front of me consisted of factories, but they were used for opening fire against us.

Q. So it was soldiers over there.

A. Well, if there is shooting coming from there, it's a military target.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the question.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. I've stopped the microphone. This must be your last question. You've gone over time as it is.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. That's quite right. I've gone beyond the time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But could you just tell me one more thing, Mr. 57: When I say "you," I'm not referring you to personally, I'm referring to members of the JNA. So all of you targeted military targets only. You opened fire at military targets only; is that right?

A. Everything we thought was a military target, that we assessed to be a military target. It didn't always have to be a military target, but, yes, I would agree with you.

Q. Thank you.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness C-057, I should like to ask you for a ²⁹⁸⁶⁸ couple of clarifications.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I leave the courtroom for a minute?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on.

[Accused excused from the courtroom]

[The accused entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you once again.

Q. Witness, I should appreciate it if you would provide the Court with some further explanations regarding those two orders dated the 1st July and the 27th July, 1991, and the three paragraphs in your statement that deal with these, tabs 4 and 5. I don't think it will be necessary for you to consult them. If you need to, I will ask that they be shown to you.

Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, in the beginning of your examination-in-chief, insisted that you explain the term used in the order of the 1st of July, namely "internal enemy." Do you recollect that?

A. Yes. Please go on.

Q. I want to ask you this: At that moment on the 1st of July when this marching order was given, was there an ongoing clash between the Territorial Defence of Slovenia and the Yugoslav People's Army preceded by the takeover of national borders with Austria and Italy?

A. The war in Slovenia was taking place at the time.

Q. It lasted for about ten days. If it started on the 25th or the 26th of June, it was still not in progress on that 1st of July. ²⁹⁸⁶⁹

A. Well, if it lasted ten days, it was ongoing at the time.

Q. It started four or five prior. Just answer my questions. In your understanding as a soldier, this takeover of national borders, did it constitute a breach of territorial integrity and sovereignty of our country? Was that the reason for the response of the JNA, among other things?

A. The operation was mounted to take back the border.

Q. Thank you. But do you remember that on the 27th of June, that is a few days before the 1st of July, Slovenia and Croatia, that is their parliaments, proclaimed their independence, in breach of the federal constitution?

A. I think that it happened even earlier, in May, but my answer is yes.

Q. So in this context, this term the "internal enemy" on which the Prosecutor insisted, in the military sense and in every sense of the Serbo-Croatian language meant the person who was violating the territorial integrity of the country and its constitutional system?

A. Yes.

Q. And the oath that you gave meant precisely that you were to protect the sovereignty and the constitutional order of the country from external and internal enemies, like in this case.

A. Yes, correct.

Q. So if we proceed from this order of the 1st of July, 1991, under tab 4, which order was geared at preventing inter-ethnic conflict.

A. Yes, I said so. There is no dispute about this. ²⁹⁸⁷⁰

Q. But it was precisely the moment when the most intensive inter-ethnic conflict already existed in Slovenia and Croatia.

A. Yes.

Q. So these orders were worded nicely, but there was a totally different verbal order. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it mean then that although the order said "preventing inter-ethnic conflict," the actual order was to provoke inter-ethnic conflict, if I understood you correctly, because you said the verbal order was different.

A. The order was not conceived in the way you seem to suggest. The order was conceived as to suggest that all Croats are enemies, being Ustashas.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, may I advise you to put a pause between the answer and your question, and not to turn on your microphone while the witness is speaking.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. This is not the first time you are warning me about this.

Q. Please look at the second order now, which is under tab 5. 6.3. You discussed it as well. Point 6.3 is where it says that during action, strictly respect the provisions of the Geneva Conventions. Now, if you say that there was a written order like this, was there also a verbal order on the 27th of July not to respect the Geneva Conventions and the laws and customs of war? Was that really an order to that effect? ²⁹⁸⁷¹

A. Of course nobody gave such an order not to observe Geneva Conventions.

Q. Thank you. Now, in this connection, please have a look at only three paragraphs. First of all, 95. Have you found it?

A. Yes.

Q. It says here: "In response to a question by Investigator Dzuro whether I knew about a case of an indictment being raised in Serbia in the period from 1991 until today for war crimes against civilians committed in Eastern Slavonia in 1991, 1992, I hereby reply that I have not heard of a single such case." Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please, find paragraph 85. Have you found it?

A. Yes.

Q. It says here, and I'm quoting your words again: "I included everything mentioned above in my detailed written report which I concluded with a comment that the events should be resolved positively as soon as possible because they were a disgrace to the JNA." Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. It goes on to say: "I made my report in one copy which I handed in. I did not make a copy for myself so that I no longer have the text of the report." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you added: "However, I still have the notebook." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, if we may go back to paragraph 58. In that paragraph, in the ²⁹⁸⁷² middle, it says -- when you speak about an event involving ears being cut off a Croat prisoner; is that correct?

A. Yes, absolutely correct.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, I would be very grateful if we could go into private session for just a minute.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And now, Witness, in your last sentence, you said: "I did not inform anyone of this." Is that correct?

A. That is not a completed sentence. ²⁹⁸⁷³

Q. Please rest assured that I will ask you about that as well. I'm just asking you for the time being. You didn't inform anyone?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. So you knew both the name and surname of a person who perpetrated something of this kind, and yet you did not inform anyone.

A. That's true, but my superiors were only a few steps away in the same place where it all took place. I'm just describing something that was perpetrated, a completed act.

Q. Very well. And then you say in paragraph 95 that you were not aware of anyone being indicted of such crimes. How could anyone be indicted if no one reports these crimes?

A. That's a very logical question. Nobody can be held responsible, indeed, in that case.

Q. Can you answer the Judges?

A. What did you just say, Mr. --

Q. Can you explain to the Judges how come that you did not report a terrible thing like this so that the person responsible could be brought to justice?

A. Because that prison was located in the immediate vicinity of my superior command.

Q. But in the paragraph 85, which I just quoted, you said you made a detailed report on the disgrace inflicted on the JNA. How can you then explain to the Judges that a horrific event like this was not made part of that report?

A. I made my report on specific orders concerning specific events. ²⁹⁸⁷⁴ The event you just quoted in paragraph 58 is a totally different event.

Q. Could you now explain this second part of sentence: "I did not inform anyone about it because I had already received instructions earlier not to restrain them." Can you tell me how you did that, in private session?

A. I received those instructions indeed.

Q. But tell me from whom, the name and surname.

A. Whose name and surname?

Q. You said you received instructions not to rein in such occurrences like these ears cut off.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Private session.

[Private session] (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted) ²⁹⁸⁷⁵ (redacted)

(redacted) (redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I have about ten minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's finish this. Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

Q. Witness, in relation to Exhibit tab 5, the marching order of 27th of July, 1991, both Mr. Milosevic and my colleague Mr. Tapuskovic referred you to the sentence in paragraph 6.3, namely the strictly respected provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

Did your superior command, before going into action, stress this point in oral briefings?

A. No, nothing like that was emphasised. I received that order in written form, and nothing was said verbally about it.

Q. You said here during your testimony, and also it is in your ²⁹⁸⁷⁶ written statement, that violations of the Geneva Conventions did occur. Was the JNA command, including your superiors, aware of crimes being committed?

A. Yes, of course they were aware.

Q. Did they take any steps to enforce the observation of the Geneva Conventions?

A. Very few steps, if any.

Q. When discussing the newspaper article, tab 7, with Mr. Milosevic, you referred to the Serb population being afraid. In your conversations with the local Serb population, did they indicate to you that the Croatian MUP had persecuted or mistreated them? I mean the Serbs.

A. No. They basically told me that they had no problems with the MUP but they were terribly afraid of them. They had had negative experience with such persons during the Independent State of Croatia, during the Second World War, and they were afraid that this kind of thing would happen again, but they did not have any specific problems, the local Serbs. They had not been molested in any way, at least in the area that I'm talking about.

Q. In relation to the diagram for the attack of Luzac, Mr. Milosevic spoke with you about Arkan's unit being under the command of your battalion. To engage Arkan and his men in this attack under the JNA command, was this decision made by the battalion command or was this decided within the joint command comprised of the corps and the brigade command?

A. No, this decision was made at a higher level. Corps command, ²⁹⁸⁷⁷ that's the level where the decision was passed on concerted action, et cetera.

Q. Mr. Milosevic mentioned Arkan and his people were blended into the battalion. How would you, in military terms, qualify the relation between Arkan and the battalion, and what was the relation between Arkan and the Novi Sad Corps?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection to the question put by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. It was not properly put. I commented upon the diagram that the witness made and from which it can be seen that this unit consists of the local Territorial Defence and this Serb Volunteer Guard of Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan. It was a company-level unit, and it consisted of territorials and these volunteers. That is to say that he did not blend into the unit -- or, rather, he did not interfere with the unit in any way, but this unit was part of a larger --

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let us not waste time by going over the argument again. The witness can answer the question, which was properly put, to this extent: In military terms, how would he describe the relationship between Arkan and the battalion?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Arkan was integrated into the Tactical Group for attacks. It was his unit that was an integral part of the Tactical Group for attacks.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Q. Mr. Milosevic today -- in relation to Erdut and the mortar fires ²⁹⁸⁷⁸ coming from the Croatian side, you said that there was no mortar fire coming from the Croatian side. My question would be, as Mr. Milosevic suggested, it may have occurred before you arrived there with your unit. Was your formation the first JNA unit that arrived there in that region on the 1st of July?

A. Yes, that was the first unit of the JNA that concentrated in that area.

Q. Mr. Milosevic spoke with you about the inter-ethnic tolerance in your unit at that time, and he proposed to you that the JNA, during your service, had a Yugoslav orientation and did not display any discrimination against any ethnicity, and you in your answer did not endorse this. Did the JNA, during your participation in the events, protect the Croatian population at any point in time?

A. No. I repeat that yet again. That has been discussed at this session, and it was also discussed at the previous session. The oral orders we received were that the Croat population were Ustashas, that even the pets and animals were Ustashas. And I'm not the only officer who received this order, there were at least five of us, and that was the general position, regardless of this order that is insisted upon and that I handed in. That was the position, that all these people were Ustashas and that we should take care. I don't know how one measures the degree of being an Ustasha, but I'm just telling you what the facts are.

Q. Did the JNA, during your time in Croatia, at any point in time side with any party to the conflict? I mean, Serbs or Croats.

A. Well, the Serb side was closer to us theoretically and practically ²⁹⁸⁷⁹ because it was in favour of preserving Yugoslavia. The Serb side was our ally. I don't know what to say to this.

MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are my questions.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness C-057, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. If you'd wait a moment until the blinds come up. Yes. We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.

[The witness withdrew]

--- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: If the witness would take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: SULEJMAN TIHIC

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, could I ask you to begin your testimony by stating your full name for the record.

A. Sulejman Tihic.

Q. And what is your current occupation?

A. Member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. I'm going to ask you --

MR. GROOME: Or if I could ask the Chamber for a number or number ²⁹⁸⁸⁰ to be assigned to a binder of exhibits, the binder containing 13 exhibits.

THE REGISTRAR: 608, Your Honour.

MR. GROOME: And if I might state for the record, tabs 1 and 2 of the binder are prior statements of the witness. Tabs 3 through 10 are attachments that were -- or documents that were attached to the original statements. Tab 11 is a copy of the transcript of Mr. Tihic's previous testimony in another case in the Tribunal, and the remaining exhibits, 12 and 13, are exhibits that were introduced during the course of those prior proceedings.

Could I ask that the witness be shown tab 1, ask that he first be shown an English copy of that statement.

Q. Mr. Tihic, I know that you do not read English, but could I ask you to look through the pages of that document and ask you, do you recognise your initials at the bottom of each of those pages?

A. Yes, I do recognise them.

Q. And did you have an opportunity to review the translation of that statement into your own language?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd ask that you take a look at the English copy at tab 2, and ask you again, are those your initials at the bottom of each of those pages?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And did you have an opportunity to review the translation of that statement into your own language?

A. Yes. ²⁹⁸⁸¹

Q. And the attachments that are included on tabs 3 through 10, did you have an opportunity to review those and are those the attachments that were made and referenced in your original statements?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, after having reviewed the statements and the attachments attached thereto, are there any material inaccuracies to those statements or any corrections that you need to draw the Chamber's attention to?

A. There are no special corrections. Perhaps there are some imprecisions in certain places, errors that are insignificant in surnames, but nothing essential.

Q. Now, after having reviewed them and now being a sworn witness, do you verify the truth and accuracy of those two prior statements, aside from these minor inconsistencies with respect, or minor inconsistencies that you say are not of essential quality to your testimony here before the Tribunal.

A. Yes, that is what I can say.

Q. And just so the record is clear, is the type of correction or inconsistency that you're talking about things such as the misspelling of the name of your neighbour of yours who does not feature in any substantive way in your testimony?

A. Yes. For example, my neighbour whose last name is Pavlovic, his name was not written correctly. It says Pisarevic. But from the context of the entire statement, it could be seen that it is Pavlovic, because I did not have a neighbour by the name of Pisarevic.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender tabs 1 ²⁹⁸⁸² through 10 of Exhibit 608 into evidence pursuant to Rule 89(F).

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: If I could read a brief summary of what is contained both in those statements and in a portion of the transcript which has been already admitted into evidence pursuant to a previous ruling of the Court. The witness was the president of the SDA in Bosanski Samac at the start of the war. He testifies about his arrest and detention at the police building in Bosanski Samac and his interrogation and beating suffered whilst there. He will also -- his testimony also includes a description of the treatment of other detainees held at the Bosanski Samac Territorial Defence building.

Approximately on the 26th or 27th of April, 1992, he testifies about being taken to the JNA barracks in Brcko. He gives evidence about his detention there and the presence of Arkan's soldiers and Red Berets in Brcko at that time. He says that at the time it was clear to him that the paramilitary forces were cooperating with the JNA and that even some JNA soldiers appeared to be afraid of the paramilitary troops. He gives evidence about an interview that he was required to give to TV Novi Sad in Serbia. He testifies about the outbreak of the war in Brcko and his transfer on the 1st or 2nd of May to the JNA barracks in Bijeljina. He further testifies about interrogations and beatings by the JNA soldiers there.

The witness was subsequently forcibly transported by helicopter to Batajnica in Serbia where he was detained. He was guarded by JNA young recruits. He testifies about his treatment there. He was subsequently ²⁹⁸⁸³ transported to Sremska Mitrovica prison in Serbia. He testifies about the commander of the camp, a regular JNA soldier, and about beatings suffered at the hands of soldiers there.

I will ask Mr. Tihic a few particular questions that are of particular relevance to this case.

Q. Mr. Tihic, the Chamber has before it a very detailed account of the events in Bosanski Samac. Can I ask you at this time to describe or to list the names of the units of paramilitary or special forces that you were aware of from Serbia that were present in the takeover of Bosanski Samac.

A. These are special units that were called the Red Berets, Arkan's men, the Grey Wolves.

Q. Did you learn when the unit that you've described as the Red Berets, did you learn when they first arrived in Bosanski Samac?

A. Well, before the attack on Bosanski Samac, perhaps ten or 15 days prior to the attack, a client of mine came to see me, because I had been working as a lawyer, and he said to me that the Red Berets were transferred to Batkusa by helicopter and that they were making trouble, if I can put it that way, in the village over there because they had beaten up a patrol, a Serb patrol that was on guard duty vis-a-vis the neighbouring Croat village, because they sat in a cafe with a Croat patrol, and they socialised. They thought that this was not right, and that's why they beat them up.

So then they complained about that, and also they were cutting the hair of people who had long hair in the village. They were molesting ²⁹⁸⁸⁴ women, things like that.

Q. As best you're able, can you fix for the Chamber the date or the approximate date upon which these Red Berets would have arrived by helicopter in the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

A. If Samac was attacked on the 17th, then they were there ten or 15 days before that, so it was perhaps the beginning of April 1992. These persons and similar persons appeared in town wearing civilian clothes. We noticed that there were people who were speaking the Ekavian dialect, who were not speaking Bosnian the way people talk in Bosnia.

Q. Now, at the beginning of April when the Red Berets would have arrived in Bosanski Samac, prior to that, had there been any outbreak of violence or any trouble in Bosanski Samac?

A. The Red Berets came to a village near Bosanski Samac, about ten kilometres away from Bosanski Samac. The name of the village is Batkusa. Well, the atmosphere in Bosanski Samac was the way it was. It's a town on the border, and that was probably the only way out of Bosnia, across the Sava river. There was tension but people lived normal lives to the extent possible at that time. It's not that people were killed or wounded, but there were verbal conflicts. And also there were some cases in which mines were placed, but people did not suffer any injuries due to that.

Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the television screen before you, and I'm going to ask that Exhibit 349, tab 4 -- and I would note that that's a correction from the summary, the summary incorrectly notes this exhibit as tab 5 -- it is 349, tab 4, that I would ask you to look at, and ²⁹⁸⁸⁵ I would ask you, do you recognise this patch?

A. Yes. Arkan's Tigers, that is the patch of those units.

Q. I now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 349, tab 16. I'd ask that be placed on the screen at the same time as the other exhibit. Now, I want to draw your attention not to the entirety of this patch but to the symbol the cross with the four Ss or reverse Cs, in the left-hand corner. Did you ever see that insignia or that portion of this insignia in Bosanski Samac?

A. Yes, I did see such insignia. It is well known because the letters S, written in Cyrillic, are turned in the opposite direction, quite different from all the others that were exhibited at that time. The Ss are in the completely opposite direction as compared to all the others. And one of them who had these patches said that the concord that no longer existed between and among the Serbs was no longer there because the Serbs were -- had turned their backs to each other, whereas now that they changed the insignia, the Ss were facing each other, as it were, and that is why Serbs would live in greater concord because they would face each other.

Q. President Tihic, the more typical symbol with the Ss, Cyrillic Ss, is that reflected in the upper portion of the Arkanovci patch on the left-hand side of the screen?

A. Yes, yes. This is an atypical patch. That's why I remembered it in particular.

Q. Now, could I ask you to describe for the Chamber the interaction between these units of the Red Berets, Arkanovci, and the other units from ²⁹⁸⁸⁶ Serbia. Could I ask you to describe their interaction with the local military in Bosanski Samac.

A. Well, you see, those special units, the Specials, as we called them, they were masters of that war, masters of life and death. The local Serb units, and even the JNA units, were much more tolerant towards us. They were willing to make allowances to let us go, but these people wouldn't let them. Everybody was afraid of them. I know a couple of Serb policemen who were beaten up just because they had been tolerant to us. Even the local Serbs were afraid of them, and the troops were afraid of them. And while I was in Bosanski Samac, they beat people. They were the only ones who beat people.

Occasionally an extremist from among the Serbs would join them and would gain more importance thereby. However, the majority of local Serbs were embarrassed because of the position that we had been put in, at least during the time that I spent in Bosanski Samac, the ten days. They beat us so bad that the local commander from Bosanski Samac called the JNA and asked him to pull us all out because we would die from the beatings otherwise.

And one of these units of the JNA was afraid that the specials who had gone on a mission somewhere would come back, in which case they wouldn't be able to pull us out, and they were afraid of clashing with them, at least as far as Bosanski Samac is concerned.

Q. Mr. Tihic, your -- both your statements and your prior testimony, you give a very detailed description of the crimes that you were subjected to, the many beatings and incarcerations that you suffered. Can I ask ²⁹⁸⁸⁷ you, did you learn the names of any of the people who committed these crimes against you personally?

A. We knew their nicknames. We didn't know their full names. I know in Bosanski Samac there were Lucky, Musa, Lugar, Beli, Zvezdan, and they were the most vicious beaters.

Q. Did there --

A. They looted, robbed.

Q. Did there come a time when you learned the last name or the formal name of this person that you've referred to as Zvezdan?

A. Yes, I learnt his name. When I got out of these concentration camps in Serbia, I was in Rijeka and received a visit from my relative who was free. He told me, I heard that you had been beaten by Zvezdan. His name is actually Jovanovic. It seems that this relative of mine had known this Zvezdan in Samac. That's how I learned his name.

Q. How did your relative from Bosanski Samac know this person Zvezdan as Zvezdan Jovanovic? Can you describe the circumstances under which he knew him.

A. At that time, they spent time together Bosanski Samac. My relative said that Zvezdan used to bring him blank driver's licences and he would type in names and details, because there were many stolen vehicles and Zvezdan wanted to change the owner's name and register them. Later, they sat together in cafes and Zvezdan told him, "I beat up your relative quite a few times," meaning me.

Q. The cars that were stolen, were these cars that were taken from the Muslim and Croat population during this -- the spring and summer of ²⁹⁸⁸⁸ 1992 in Bosanski Samac?

A. Yes. All of them were taken away from Muslims and Croats, and the names of the real owners would be replaced in these blank driver's licences. My relative would receive instructions from Zvezdan which name to type in.

Q. Mr. Tihic, I'm going to ask you to look at portion of videotape. It's Exhibit 390, tab 1. I'm going to ask you to listen to the names of the people that introduced themselves to the accused, Mr. Milosevic, and then I'll ask you a question regarding whether you recognise the names of any of these people. I'll ask that be played now.

[Videotape played]

MR. GROOME: Sir, is that the same name of the person who beat you while you were in Bosanski Samac?

A. Yes, that's the name.

Q. As you sit here ten years later, are you confident in your ability to recognise this person from this video, from the face?

A. I can hardly recognise him because this recording is not very good. He seems to be wearing glasses here. Just by how tall he is, he seems to be the same person, but it's difficult for me to say whether it's really the same man. The name does correspond, but otherwise -- I don't know.

Q. Now, in your prior statement and your testimony, you refer to a person by the name of Djordjevic, also known as Crni, and could I ask you to describe to the Chamber what you know about his background, what you came to know about his background and where he was from prior to the ²⁹⁸⁸⁹ activities that he engaged in in Bosanski Samac.

A. Earlier, as far as I know, he used to be a member of the federal police in Belgrade. For a while, from what I heard, he was in retirement, but when the war broke out, he joined the military, and he was the commander of this unit that was stationed in Bosanski Samac. Crni was their commander. I know that he even got married in Bosanski Samac, and took over the property of his bride.

Q. Sir --

A. He commanded that unit, yes.

Q. Again, your prior testimony and statement go into great detail about what happened to you in both Brcko and Bijeljina. If I could now draw your attention to the period of time when you were taken from Bosnia and forcibly transported into Serbia. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber how it was you were taken from Bosnia into Serbia and when that was.

A. From the military barracks of the JNA in Brcko, we were transferred to the Spanac barracks in Bijeljina. I think it was on the 2nd or the 3rd of May, 1992. And two or three days after we arrived, they came and called out a couple of names. They blindfolded us and directed us to leave the building where we were put up.

We walked in the direction of a helicopter. We were put into that helicopter, and inside there were already three men from Samac; Izetbegovic, Izet Izetbegovic, Dr. Keracic, and a third man.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And in the middle of the helicopter ²⁹⁸⁹⁰ there was a coffin holding the body of a fighter who had gotten killed. There was one of Arkan's men and one major wearing civilian clothes. We were tied to each other, in fact handcuffed to each other. The helicopter took off. I know we flew over two rivers.

MR. GROOME:

Q. My apologies for interrupting you but the interpreters were not able to catch the third name, the name that you mentioned after Mr. Izetbegovic. Can I ask you to repeat the name of the third individual who was taken into the helicopter.

A. The people who were already in the helicopter were Izet Izetbegovic, Dr. Miroslav Keracic, and Anto Dragicevic. They were already inside. And the men who came with me from Grga Zubak, Anto Lucic, Anto Simovic, Dragan Lukac, Sead Mujkanovic. I think there were six of us.

Q. Just what relationship if any was there between Izet Izetbegovic and Alija Izetbegovic?

A. Izet Izetbegovic and Alija Izetbegovic were sons of brothers.

Q. Now, I interrupted you when you were describing the manner in which you were restrained in the helicopter. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber again how it was that you were restrained while you were in that helicopter.

A. In the middle of that helicopter lay the coffin of that dead soldier. On the left and on the right of the coffin the nine of us sat, handcuffed to each other. Behind us was one Arkan's man and on the other was the major in civilian clothes.

On the way, the Arkan's man wanted to throw us out of the ²⁹⁸⁹¹ helicopter, but this major - and I know that he was a major because he later interrogated us in Batajnica - would not allow that. We flew over two rivers before we landed at an airfield. I think it was Batajnica. It was Batajnica.

Q. Were you handcuffed in any way?

A. We were all handcuffed. Handcuffed to each other. It was enough to push only one of us out the door and we would all fly out of the helicopter. I had one-half of the handcuff tied to my hand and the other half of the handcuff was tied to the next person.

Q. Now, the person who you're describing as a member of the Arkanovci in this helicopter, how was it that you knew that he was a member of Arkan's Tigers?

A. I knew by his patch and the black cap they wore, the knit cap. They wore all the emblems.

Q. Did -- was he handcuffed or restrained in any way while he was on that helicopter?

A. He was the person who was guarding us. He was in charge of our security, if you can put it that way.

Q. And the helicopter, were you able to identify from what organisation or unit the helicopter came from?

A. Well, you see, when we were going into the helicopter, we were blindfolded, and from under the blindfold you could discern that it was a JNA helicopter, but which unit it belonged to we couldn't really tell because we had to keep our heads down, and we had to keep our heads down even while we were inside. We were not allowed to look left or right or ²⁹⁸⁹² up. We just had to keep our heads down all the time. I can't tell which unit the helicopter belonged to, but it was a JNA helicopter.

Q. Now, again your statement and your testimony go into great detail about your treatment in Batajnica and subsequently in Sremska Mitrovica prison, including attempts to force you to participate in the taping of a propaganda film.

The final question I have for you this morning is: During your incarceration, did you have a conversation with a JNA soldier by the name of Aco Ilic?

A. Yes. That was a decent kind of soldier. He was originally from Loznica. He said so himself. He had many friends among Bosnians. He helped us in Batajnica as much as he could. He would bring us biscuits, once he even brought beer. And while he was on guard, nobody was allowed to beat us.

I know that sometime towards the end he left, but before that he came to say goodbye and he said he was going to the front line in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was towards the end of our stay in Batajnica.

Q. And did he say whether he was receiving any additional benefits or additional pay for volunteering to go to the front line in Bosnia?

A. You see, besides from -- besides Aco Ilic, there were other guards who volunteered to go to Bosnia, and they said that they would be receiving the same salaries they were receiving in Serbia, but they would receive also an additional bonus for going to Bosnia. They would get a higher salary, like professional soldiers.

Q. Now, sir, during the period of your incarceration, the JNA ²⁹⁸⁹³ formally withdrew from Bosnia around the 19th and 20th of May. Are you able to say whether the conversation that you had with Mr. Ilic or any of the other men was before or after the formal withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia?

A. I think it was after that, two or three days prior to our transfer to Sremska Mitrovica, which was on the 27th of May. I know this also because it was a time when Bosnia and Herzegovina was admitted into the United Nations. This happened after the recognition, and it was later declared that the JNA was going to withdraw from Bosnia. And we were admitted into the UN on the 22nd of May, I believe.

Q. When were you ultimately released from your imprisonment in Serbia?

A. On the 14th of August. There was a large exchange in a place called Nemetin under an agreement between Premier of Yugoslavia Panic and Gregoric. We were part of that large exchange. We were exchanged together with Croat prisoners mainly from Vukovar.

MR. GROOME: Thank you, Mr. Tihic. I have no further questions.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's for you to cross-examine the witness. We've considered how long you should have in the light of the length of the Prosecution examination, and we conclude an hour -- one hour, three-quarters.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] I will try to manage within that time, Mr. Tihic. I'm not sure I will, though.

Mr. Tihic, in your statement, in the very beginning you say that, ²⁹⁸⁹⁴ in addition to other statements, you made a statement just after you were exchanged in 1992. Is that correct?

A. Yes. One of the documents that I made here were drawings of the rooms where I was imprisoned.

Q. No, I mean what it says in the second paragraph: "I brought with me a document that I wrote after I was released from the camp in Serbia, and I'm giving you a copy. I felt that I was forgetting things so I wrote down names and events from my memory. That document covers events from before the election in 1990 up until the time I got out of the camp in 1992." That's what my question relates to.

A. Yes.

Q. You said that you felt you were forgetting things, so you noted down events and names. I suppose it covers the period from 1990 to 1992.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you still have that document today? Do you have it with you? Could I see it, perhaps, since as you say you've submitted it and I haven't received it.

A. Yes, I still have it today, and I submitted it in the trial of the Samac group. I simply wanted to note down the kind of details that tend to fade in memory, such as names, the sequence of events. I tried to write down the chronology of all that I had suffered in the several camps I've been to.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should like to have that document when it is convenient.

JUDGE MAY: We will make an inquiry about it. Yes, Mr. Groome. ²⁹⁸⁹⁵

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm looking for that document now, and as soon as we identify it, we'll notify the Court.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Tihic, at the time of the events that you are testifying about, you discharged important functions within the SDA party in your municipality; is that right?

A. I volunteered as president of the SDA party and president of the Municipal Board.

Q. All right. But president of the party is probably the most prominent personality in the party and in your municipality.

A. Yes.

Q. And you've been in the SDA since it was established?

A. Correct.

Q. From the information available to me, you were an MP in the Assembly of Republika Srpska from 1996 to 2002.

A. Right.

Q. And in 2001, the High Representative of the international community appointed you member of the parliamentary commission for constitutional issues; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you were elected president of the SDA.

A. Yes.

Q. From my information, when you were elected, you made a speech to the public and the MPs present and party members, saying that your party ²⁹⁸⁹⁶ would work for the implementation of the provisions of the Dayton Accords.

A. I said I would work on the implementation of Annex 4 to the Dayton Accords, and these accords have a total of ten annexes.

Q. What is it that's so particular about Annex 4?

A. It envisages strengthening the institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state and making them more efficient as well as creating a unified economic space.

Q. I know what you mean, but do you mean a change of status of Republika Srpska?

A. Among other things, I believe that the entity called nowadays Republika Srpska cannot be named after one nation only because Bosnia and Herzegovina is a multinational state.

Q. The way Republika Srpska is named is up to the people of Republika Srpska to decide.

A. That should be decided in keeping with the constitution, and all peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina should be asked about it, should have a say, and there should be a consensus.

JUDGE MAY: This is a current debate. It has nothing to do with the indictment, and as far as I can see, nothing to do with this trial. So we'll go on to something else which has to do with this trial.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. With what you call "this trial," there is probably a connection of what Mr. Tihic just said, the need for consensus among peoples.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ²⁹⁸⁹⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ²⁹⁹⁰⁹

Q. In the past decade since the war, Bosnia and Herzegovina has been a state where political decision-making has been based precisely upon agreement among Croats, Serbs, and Muslims, and even personnel decisions were taken with a view to the need for equal representation.

A. Precisely. Bosnia and Herzegovina should be a state of all the three peoples. That's the kind of Bosnia I always worked for.

Q. Is it beyond dispute that problems in Bosnia started precisely when a decision was made ignoring Serbian people for Bosnia to leave Yugoslavia?

A. No, that's not what the problems started. Problems, in my opinion, started because the JNA got involved in Bosnian affairs. In other words, an aggression was mounted against Bosnia-Herzegovina. Serbs, Croats and Muslims in Bosnia would never wage war against each other if there had been no outside interference, if there had not been involvement of special units from all sides. We as neighbours would never fight each other.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. If Croats from Croatia and Serbs from Serbia caused all that, how come that there had been no conflicts before the collapse of that famous Cutileiro plan which had been signed at first by Alija Izetbegovic, who then withdrew his signature, whereas Serbs and Croats accepted this plan with the proviso that Bosnia should be cantonised? Is that correct, Mr. Tihic?

A. No, that's not correct.

Q. All right. These are factual issues. I don't have to dwell on this any longer. Let us go back to the events that you are testifying ²⁹⁹¹⁰ about and your statement too.

Is it correct that in 1990, among the newly established political parties - I'm referring to the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ - in the territory of your municipality some kind of political agreement was reached, or, rather, you cooperated in order to topple the communists; is that right?

A. Well, this was a parliamentary majority that elected the then-government.

Q. Isn't it uncontested that the division of public offices within the municipality once you won the election, I'm referring to these three parties, was based precisely on the agreement among the three parties? You refer to that in paragraph 4 of your statement.

A. Changes only took place in public offices, namely in economic companies changes were not carried out because there were these other problems.

Q. As far as I know, you had also been a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. For how long were you a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

A. I was a member from the fourth grade of high school.

Q. So as soon as you became of age, you became a member. As early as possible; is that right? And then until 1990, all the time?

A. Yes.

Q. And you say that you became a member of the League of Communists ²⁹⁹¹¹ of Yugoslavia in fourth grade of high school, and then in paragraph 4 you say that you were not a member of the League of Communists out of conviction but, rather, because that was the way in which you could pursue your professional interests in the best way.

A. Well, you see in the League of Communists, practically all educated people were within the ranks of the League of Communists. The ideas advocated by the League of Communists were progressive, acceptable. They spoke of justice, equality among people. So why would I not be in the League of Communists at that time?

Q. That's not the question I'm putting to you, why you would not be a member of the League of Communists but what you said a few minutes ago here was that you became a member of the League of Communists while you were still in high school, and here you say, "I was a member of the -- member of the League of Communists before the war because it was impossible to work as a judge or lawyer if you were not."

A. Well, that's right too, because especially in the provinces, it was very difficult to be a judge or a prosecutor. I mean, you could not be head of a shop if you were not a member of the League of Communists.

Q. Well, I'm not aware of that, that you could not do anything if you were not a member of the League of Communists, because then all employees would have been members of the League of Communists, especially lawyers. I do not know of most lawyers being members of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. Perhaps in Bosanski Samac, so then you would be an exception, Mr. Tihic.

A. Well, formally you could be a judge of the Constitutional Court ²⁹⁹¹² without being a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia but --

Q. You said you could not work as a lawyer.

A. No, that does not mean that a lawyer could not -- become a lawyer without being a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. Perhaps that is imprecise.

Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you this because this is inaccurate; isn't that right?

A. Well, for the most part, lawyers were not members of the League of Communists.

Q. But then you wrote something -- then you wrote something that is not true. But let us go on.

Is it correct that during 1991 you were also a member of the National Security Council of the SDA? Is that right? You referred to that in paragraph 2 of your statement.

A. I was a member of the Main Board of the SDA.

Q. I'm asking you whether you were a member of the National Security Council of the Party of Democratic Action.

A. I was not. As far as I know, such a council didn't even exist as a body, as a permanent body.

Q. All right. You became a member of the National Council of the SDA for all of the former Yugoslavia?

A. You probably mean the Main Board of the SDA. Perhaps the translation is not right.

Q. Is it correct that together with this Izet Izetbegovic who was mentioned here who is therefore the nephew -- or, no, the cousin of Alija ²⁹⁹¹³ Izetbegovic; is that right? That together with him, on behalf of the Muslims of Bosanski Samac, you attended a meeting at Mount Igman towards the end of 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened at that meeting? Is that when this National Security Council of the SDA was established?

A. It's not that it was founded then. Various current political issues were discussed at that meeting, and towards the end of the meeting some members voiced their concern over the arming of the Serbs by the JNA. It was also indicated that Croats were receiving weapons from Croatia and that we Muslims had no weapons, and that in a way, we had remained disarmed because previously the JNA had taken the weapons of the Territorial Defence, and these two ethnic groups had weapons.

Q. All right. That was in 1991, and is it true that at that meeting regional and municipal Crisis Staffs were first established?

A. I don't know whether it was formally done at that meeting, but these Crisis Staffs were being established after that.

Q. Is it beyond any doubt that the leadership of the SDA that you belonged to already then at the end of 1991 quite clearly opted in favour of a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. That's not correct. We wanted to preserve Yugoslavia as a community of equal and equitable peoples, and President Izetbegovic advocated that. However, other forces prevailed, and he could not succeed. Because we knew what a war in Bosnia-Herzegovina could mean.

Q. Isn't it certain that the Serbs advocated the preservation of ²⁹⁹¹⁴ Yugoslavia? Is that at least beyond doubt?

A. Well, it's not, because all other peoples wanted Yugoslavia as a community of equitable peoples, whereas Serbs, or, rather, the policy that then represented the Serbs wanted a Yugoslavia in which the Serbs would be more equitable, to say the least, in relation to others.

Q. Well, Mr. Izetbegovic -- or Mr. Tihic, don't you know that in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which was established in April 1992, when you seceded and when you were internationally recognised, that that is precisely where citizens were equal and equitable and that throughout that decade there had been no ethnic discrimination whatsoever. And as a matter of fact, 70.000 Muslims fled as refugees to Serbia to seek shelter there.

A. I don't know about that, and least of all do I know that they were equal. I mean, Muslims were taken out of trains and killed in this "equitable Yugoslavia" as you say. So the other day in Serbia, the perpetrators were tried, and these Muslims were taken off a train and killed. So that's that equality for you.

Q. Mr. Izetbegovic -- Mr. Tihic, those people who were taken out were taken out of the train in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not in Serbia, and you know that full well. And you also know full well how the authorities reacted to that.

A. Well, this is how they reacted.

Q. It did not happen in Serbia, it happened in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. After all, that is a fact that cannot be brought into question. ²⁹⁹¹⁵

A. Well, if we're supposed to discuss this --

Q. I'm not discussing the train.

JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going to discuss this. It seems a complete waste of time to have this sort of argument. Now, we'll hear evidence. If you've got some questions for the witness which he can deal with without argument, we'll listen to them, but otherwise we'll move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Tihic, I shall ask you to give answers that are as brief as possible to my questions.

Do you know that on the 13th of January, 1991, in Bosanski Brod a meeting was held of the representatives of the HDZ of Northern Bosnia where a commission was elected with the task of talking in Slavonski Brod to the Ministers of Defence and the Interior Martin Spegelj and Josi Bojlkovic [phoen] about the arming of Bosanska Posavina?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. Do you know that the leadership of the SDA of Sarajevo on the 11th of July, 1991 sent to the municipal representatives of the SDA a document called Instructions for Sending Candidates to the Educational Centre of the MUP of the Republic of Croatia, which was signed by Secretary Hasan Cengic?

A. I'm not aware of that.

Q. You did not receive that?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. And do you remember, as the then-president of the SDA for Bosanski Samac, that on the 9th of August, 1991 - 1991, I underline - the ²⁹⁹¹⁶ headquarters of the SDA sent instructions regarding mobilisation, military exercises, and stating the following: That these matters have to do with their party affiliation within the municipal Secretariats of National Defence, not the federal administration. B, that they insist on the decision of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina dated the 7th of August that recruits from the BH can serve their military term only in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia; and thirdly, that call-up papers can be addressed only by municipal authorities, not by military organs. Do you recall that and is that correct?

A. I don't remember that it was the SDA that sent this document. I think that this was either a decision of the Presidency not to go and do one's military service. I think it was the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina that decided that.

Q. Do you remember that in August the same year the arms smuggling channel was cut off, the arms that were illegally transported from Croatia to Bosnia for the SDA?

A. Where was that?

Q. Your area.

A. I don't remember that.

Q. All right. And do you remember that in October 1991, the first Serb refugees started arriving from Croatia, and they were taken care of by a special commission in Bosanski Samac?

A. I remember that. I remember that. From Slunj and other areas.

Q. And is it correct that on the 27th of November, 1991, from -- the Croatian side stopped traffic on the bridge on the Sava River spanning the ²⁹⁹¹⁷ two river banks, Bosanski Samac and Croatia?

A. Possibly. Traffic would be stopped from time to time.

Q. All right. Do you remember that on that occasion the Crisis Staff from Slavonski Brod informed the president of the Municipal Assembly in Bosanski Samac that the reason for stopping traffic was the fact that JNA units and Chetnik gangs were concentrating there? I am quoting that document. Continued quotation: On the Bosnian side and that the bridge was mined.

A. I'm not sure.

Q. You're not sure?

A. I don't know that this kind of document was sent. I know that traffic was stopped and I knew that there were these remarks regarding the concentration of troops because they were afraid that these troops would cross over to Croatia, but as for a concrete document, letter, I don't know about that.

Q. All right. But towards the end of November 1991, did a series of sabotage and diversion actions where the transmission lines were blown up in Lugovi and also Alija Fitozovic, your colleague and party comrade, had stashed away a lot of Vitezit 20, a well-known explosive, and also a diagram for carrying out those actions?

A. I know that the transmission lines were blown up, but I don't know who did this.

Q. You don't know that Fitozovic had the explosives, your colleague Fitozovic?

A. I know that some explosives were found in Alija Fitozovic's house. ²⁹⁹¹⁸

Q. All right. Is it correct that on the 9th of December 1991 there was a diversion using the same kind of explosives in Hranaprodukt?

A. I don't know how this sabotage took place, but I did know about an explosion at the Hranaprodukt company and I don't know who did that. The perpetrators were never found in any one of these cases. We thought it was done by the JNA, they thought somebody else was doing that, and that is how mutual accusations were levelled.

Q. All right. On the 23rd of December, was there yet another act of sabotage, again near Podlugovi number 182 -- no, not Podlugovi but again a transmission line. I meant Lugovi. This was a slip of the tongue.

A. Yes, Lugovi. There were sabotage acts of this kind; seven, eight, ten, I don't know if it was twice at Lugovi or only once but it's possible.

Q. On the 24th of December -- the one I referred to just now was on the 223rd, but on the 24th of December your party colleague Alija Fitozovic, who was also an SDA official; is that right?

A. He was a member of the Executive Board, the municipal Executive Board.

Q. Yes. From the Crisis Staff of Slavonski Brod he received an ID allowing him safe passage through checkpoints; is that right?

A. I'm not aware of him getting this kind of document.

Q. Is it true that on the 26th of December the poles of the transmission -- on the transmission lines between Tuzla and Djakovo were mined and also the shop of a Serb, Janja Zubak, in Bosanski Samac?

A. I don't know about the transmission lines and Janja Zubak is not a ²⁹⁹¹⁹ Serb. She's a Croat and her husband, Grga Zubak, was imprisoned with me.

Q. Was her kiosk blown up?

A. Yes, her kiosk was right by the MUP, the police building.

Q. Is it correct that on the 10th of January, 1992, a new hand-over of explosives took place between Alija Fitozovic and Nefrid Dzananovic from Odjaci [phoen] and that a certificate to that effect was found in Fitozovic's apartment?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know about that?

A. I don't know.

Q. And do you know that in January 1992, a large quantity of weapons was obtained from Croatia? Do you know about that?

A. January 1992?

Q. Yes, January 1992.

A. No.

Q. A large quantity of arms from Croatia.

A. I don't know about that. I know that in April, just before the attack on Samac, something did come from Croatia, but January I don't know.

Q. Oh, I see. Before the attack on Samac, arms came from Croatia?

A. Yes. Fifty automatic rifles. And that was given to the Territorial Defence Staff. And these weapons were mostly taken away when Samac was attacked.

Q. Oh, they were seized?

A. Yes, because they were the TO staff. ²⁹⁹²⁰

Q. And now you're talking about April, but I am dwelling on January. The 27th of January, that is the holiday of St. Sava, the chapel at the Orthodox cemetery in Bosanski Samac was blown up. Do you remember that?

A. I know that it was blown up, the chapel, but I don't know whether it was on the 27th of January.

Q. Well, the -- well, Saint Sava's day was chosen because that is a big Serb holiday.

A. I did not know that it was exactly on that holiday but I know that it was damaged to an extent, it wasn't totally destroyed.

Q. Explosives were placed there.

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know that on the 5th of February, 1992, the bridge on the Sava River also had explosives placed on it and was partly damaged?

A. Well, partly damaged, yes, but I don't know whether it was on the 5th of February, possibly so.

Q. Do you know that on the 8th of February from the village of Donji Hasici a mortar attack was launched against the neighbouring Serb village of Skaric? This was on the same day when your associates Izet Izetbegovic and Alija Fitozovic brought ammunition and hand grenades and anti-tank mines from Slavonski Brod. Do you remember that?

A. I do not know about this shelling of Skaric from Hasici. Well, you see, all these explosions that took place, there were different versions in this regard who the perpetrators were. We thought that this done by the JNA and by the Serb side in order to create a state of confusion. ²⁹⁹²¹

Q. And do you know anything about what I referred to just now in the second part of my question, about bringing in ammunition by Fitozovic and Izetbegovic, ammunition, hand grenades, anti-tank mines and so on, precisely then when this shelling of Skaric took place?

A. I don't know whether it happened on that day, but I know they brought a case of ammunition, two hand grenades and I believe one anti-tank mine from Croatia. I was informed of it. I didn't see it myself.

Q. But you were informed of that quantity you are talking about, not a greater quantity; just one case of ammunition.

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Do you know who Rifat Atic is, nicknamed Rajec, owner of the Molar [phoen] coffee bar?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know that the 2nd of March he took over a delivery of a large quantity of ammunition from Slavonski Brod and that ammunition was intended for SDA units in Samac?

A. I think you're talking about the same thing, actually, the same shipment. Atic brought this one case.

Q. No, the first thing happened on the 8th of February and the second case was on the 2nd of March, and it was 10.000 pieces, not just one case.

A. I know there was one delivery only, whether it was Atic or Fitozovic who brought it.

Q. I know that a receipt, 1342, was found on one of them on the 2nd of March, issued on the 2nd of March. ²⁹⁹²²

A. I know that there was only one consignment. Whether it was Izetbegovic or Fitozovic.

Q. Do you know that in the night between the 12th and 13th of March a delivery was made on two trucks secured by Namic Sulic [phoen], commander of the police from Samac?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you remember the meeting of the 19th of March in the Prud village, attended by Stjepan Bozanovic, nicknamed Braco, special envoy of the HDZ from Croatia; Mato Nujic, Filip Evic, Izet Izetbegovic, Vinko Dragicevic, Alija Fitozovic, and this Marko Bozanovic and yourself; is that true?

A. Yes. I remember that meeting, I came towards the end only. That meeting fell through because I personally didn't want to agree, and Marko Bozanovic didn't agree either, with the establishment of a Crisis Staff where only Croats and Muslims would be included. I wanted a Crisis Staff where Serbs would be included as well. That's why this meeting fell through.

Q. Isn't it true that a Crisis Staff was set up then and a single army command where Bozanovic was the commander and Fitozovic was his deputy?

A. No, it wasn't set up then because I didn't want to agree with a Crisis Staff without Serbs.

Q. So this was only a proposal that you didn't accept because you were against it?

A. I was explicitly and strongly against it, and Marko Bozanovic ²⁹⁹²³ supported me.

Q. All right. But how was the nucleus then formed of the 104th Brigade of the HVO? Because my information was that this meeting was the beginning of that brigade.

A. I don't know how the brigade was set up. I was in the camp at the time.

Q. All right. But do you remember that on the 25th of March, 1992, on the railway in Samac, explosives were found, the railroad had been mined?

A. I don't remember.

Q. And do you remember that at that time on the 25th of March, Fuad Jasenica, Jogo, an activist of the SDA from Samac, brought from Croatia a large shipment of automatic rifles including ammunition and two launchers?

A. That's what I mentioned as a case from April when 50 automatic rifles were brought from Croatia.

Q. There are two shipments, the beginning of March and the 25th of March. The paper found on Atic was dated the 2nd of March. He brought it across the border on the 25th of March, and we are talking about two different consignments and you know only about one of them.

A. I know about the case of Jasenica. That weaponry was brought to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence and surrendered to them, and I know that Atic, Fitozovic, and whoever it was with them brought some weapons from Slavonski Brod.

Q. Very well. You became president of the Crisis Staff in March; is that true? ²⁹⁹²⁴

A. It was a Crisis Staff that was set up within the party of the SDA, and all presidents of municipal boards were presidents of Crisis Staff.

Q. All right. There were Izet Izetbegovic, Fitozovic, Nalic, and Hadzialijagic in addition to you.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true at the same time that a municipal military staff was set up, headed precisely by Alija Izetbegovic, Fitozovic, Rifat Atic, Fakija Baptic [phoen], et cetera?

A. This Crisis Staff had a section that dealt precisely with security and organisation of defence because, in the municipality of Bosanski Samac, Muslims accounted for only 7 per cent of the population, and we were concentrated in the town itself. We were concerned because we were cut off from the rest of Bosnia at a time when Serbs and Croats were getting very well armed, Serbs by the JNA and Croats by Croatia. We found ourselves in the middle, and we were thinking about what to do. We tried to organise ourselves and provide for some sort of security although it couldn't be compared to the capacities of the Serbs and Croats because they were much more numerous in municipalities and they enjoyed the support of their respective states, so that our efforts were really incomparable.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. Since you say that Serbs enjoyed the support of the JNA and Croats of the Croatian state, is it true that then in 1991 there was a boycott of the JNA and refusal to receive call-up papers and Muslims en masse refused to be mobilised into the Territorial Defence? ²⁹⁹²⁵

A. That's true. In response to an appeal made by the president, Alija Izetbegovic, not to respond to call-up, young men really refused because, among other things, they were afraid of being sent to front lines in Croatia.

Q. Isn't it clear that you excluded yourself from the JNA and then said that JNA didn't want you? You refused call-up papers yourselves. If you had stayed in the JNA, you wouldn't have taken any action against yourselves. Isn't that obvious?

A. There were mostly Serbs in the JNA.

Q. There were all ethnicities represented in the command.

A. You know that soldiers were mostly Serb, and they were commanded by Serbs.

Q. You know that the composition of the commanding staff was proportional to the composition of the population.

A. I don't think it was that proportional.

Q. We need not discuss concrete data because it is available to everyone.

Is it also true that one of the main objectives of those Crisis Staffs of the SDA was to arm your Muslim units in the municipalities where these Crisis Staffs existed? Is that true or not?

A. I can only tell you about Bosanski Samac. There were no serious units. They did not exist, and we were not able to arm them, because we accounted for only 8 per cent of the total population of the municipality.

Q. All right. But we did note a moment ago, and we agreed, that there were at least some activities geared at arming, although you ²⁹⁹²⁶ accounted for only 7 per cent.

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Are you aware of any aggressive actions taken against army officers, barracks, their families, military facilities at the time in your area, a locality you were very familiar with regardless of whether it was strictly within the administrative borders of your municipality?

A. I know about Bosanski Samac and the surrounding area. There were no officers there, there were no barracks, there were no such actions taken.

Q. Very well. In your statement you mentioned the 4th Detachment, and you call it detachment of the JNA. You claim that it was an integral part of the 17th Tactical Group commanded by Colonel Nikolic; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me first, on what basis do you claim that this 4th Detachment was part of the JNA? Could it have been the Territorial Defence?

A. It certainly wasn't, because Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic came and informed us in the municipality that they were part of the JNA and that similar units exist in other municipalities. We were opposed to that and we said that under the constitution, such units can only be part of the Territorial Defence, but he wouldn't hear of it and he established the 4th Detachment.

A. That's precisely what I'm trying to say. Is it true that it was a unit of the Territorial Defence that included both Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, this 4th Detachment?

A. It was a JNA unit. It was not under the headquarters of the ²⁹⁹²⁷ Territorial Defence, it was part of the JNA.

JUDGE MAY: This is a good moment to adjourn. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

President Tihic, may I give you the warning we give all witnesses, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go on until 2.00, which should give us time to finish the evidence of this witness.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So, let us clarify about this 4th Detachment. You yourself, Mr. Tihic, in paragraph 7 of your statement, speak about two of your fellow townsmen, and I'm quoting you. You say: "They organised the 4th Detachment of the JNA in Samac by recruiting civilians who had weapons. 80 per cent of the members were Serbs, but there were also some Muslims and Croats." Is that true?

A. The 4th Detachment was organised by the JNA, the barracks in Brcko, and they were formally and in reality under their competence, and they provided them with weapons.

Q. I understand that, but I'm quoting you here. You wrote about your fellow townsmen, that they organised the 4th Detachment in Bosanski Samac by recruiting civilians who had weapons. And you say 80 per cent were Serbs and the rest were Muslims and Croats, and you said yourself that ²⁹⁹²⁸ Muslims accounted for only 7 per cent of the population. Is that correct or not?

A. The detachment was made up of people who were local residents of Bosanski Samac.

Q. And you say in paragraph 10: "Nikolic did not have legal authority to establish the 4th Detachment because only the republican authorities had competencies to do something like that." So who was it; Nikolic?

A. Nikolic organised the 4th Detachment.

Q. So what you say, that "they" organised it is not correct.

A. You must have taken this out of context. The entirety of my statement must indicate that it was the JNA, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, who organised the 4th Detachment.

Q. Look at paragraph 7. In the middle of that paragraph, after mentioning all these names and their positions, you say: "They organised the 4th Detachment of the JNA within the town of Bosanski Samac by recruiting civilians with weapons. 80 per cent of the members were Serbs but there were also some Muslims and Croats." And I'm quoting you verbatim. That is what you stated.

A. I'm telling you, the entirety of my statement says that it was organised by the JNA, by Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, and the JNA provided their weapons. That is the truth.

Q. They recruited civilians who had weapons.

A. No. They distributed weapons to civilians. And everybody knows where it was done; in the factory at Tekstilac. These people were invited ²⁹⁹²⁹ to come there and they distributed the weapons to them.

Q. These two don't fit, together but never mind. In paragraph 9, you say that Lieutenant Colonel, or Colonel Nikolic, I'm not sure about this, it doesn't matter anyway, at a time when the JNA were still in Bosnia and Herzegovina, he would come to Bosanski Samac, talking to people about security and telling them to organise the defence of the town. However, the majority did not want the JNA to be involved in the work of the TO. Is that correct?

A. It's true that Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic came. He would attend sessions of the Security Council and the local community and he did not want to cooperate with the Territorial Defence. That is true. He wanted the JNA to take over all security affairs in the municipality without involving the TO, which we were opposed to.

Q. But I'm quoting again from your paragraph 9: "He came to meetings discussing security, telling people to organise the defence of the town with the army, but most of the people at the security meeting did not want the army involved with the Territorial Defence." This is completely opposite to what you are saying now.

A. Well, that's not true. The Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic and the entire JNA at the time ignored the TO. They didn't want any part of them, and that's why they disarmed them.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may interrupt. Your Honour, I'm now in possession of the statement, the English and the B/C/S version. These are personal memoirs of the witness. They were first disclosed to the accused on 21st of March, 2003. I have additional copies here to ²⁹⁹³⁰ provide him. In fairness, I would point out the name of the witness isn't prominent on the document but it is mentioned in the footer, but it may not have been obvious that this was this particular witness's statement.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the accused have one copy, the witness have another. And have you got a copy for us, please?

MR. GROOME: I'll have those produced now, Your Honour.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. This is very voluminous material, as far as I can see, but I suppose Mr. Groome made a slip of the tongue when he said that it was discovered in 1993. I suppose he meant it was discovered in 2003.

MR. GROOME: Yes. It was disclosed on the 3rd of -- I'm sorry, the 21st of March, 2003.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But not indicating the name of the witness. I really don't know how to find my way in this sea of papers, especially when names of witnesses are not indicated. But now I have no time to deal with this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Tell me, Mr. Tihic, since you say that the majority was against involving the JNA in the work of the TO, what majority are you talking about? Do you mean Muslims from the territory of Bosanski Samac? Right?

A. I said that we wanted the JNA and the TO to cooperate, as envisaged by the legislation and the constitution. We were opposed to having the JNA as the sole guarantor of our security. Croats and Muslims were both against it. ²⁹⁹³¹

Q. When you say he talked about organising the defence of the town with the army but most of the people at the security meeting did not want the army involved with the Territorial Defence, this is pretty unequivocal in your statement. You say that you mean Muslims and Croats now.

A. I mean Muslims, Croats, and others who were against having the JNA as the sole guarantor of security.

Q. Why would the JNA ask to be the only guarantor if Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic came to these meetings and asked you to jointly organise the defence of the town?

A. That's not what he asked.

Q. But that's what you wrote here.

A. I don't know how it really worked, but I'm telling you what happened.

Q. I'm telling you what you wrote. He told the people that they should organise the defence of the town with the army. That's what it says in your statement. Regardless -- all right. When you talk about Nikolic's appeal --

JUDGE MAY: Were you going to say something, Mr. Tihic, or not? If not --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. In this connection regarding the defence of the town, from whom was the town supposed to defend itself and the surrounding area as well?

A. There were various misgivings on various parts. The Serbs who were in town were afraid that the KOS people might come from the other ²⁹⁹³² side of the river, from the Croatian side, while we the Muslims who were the majority in town were afraid that the JNA, the Serb Territorial Defence could take over the town and repeat the scenario that had already taken place in Bijeljina and upstream along the Drina River.

Q. I'm asking you about the words of Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic about the defence of the town. I suppose it did not mean defending the town from some Serbs who were supposed to attack it. From whom did he ask you to defend the town?

A. Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic in his public speeches tried to rise above it all and treat equally both Serb forces and Croatian forces. As a representative of the JNA, he was supposed to defend us from both. That's what he said.

Q. Is it true what you say in paragraph 17, namely that members of the 4th Detachment patrolled only by night in the areas of the Bosna River and the Sava River, because that's the side from which they expected an attack?

A. I mentioned that before. They feared an attack from the other side, from some Croatian village across the river.

Q. So this expected attack was supposed to come from Croatia?

A. They feared that an attack might come from that side.

Q. Now, in paragraph 13, speak about the self-defence of the Muslims. You say that it was not organised by professional soldiers, and it was meant only to fend off attacks from outside, and the problem was that the JNA had taken away all the weaponry a year before.

A. That's true. We had some city guards who could not be very ²⁹⁹³³ efficient in defending us, but they could give a warning to people, like an attack is coming.

Q. So you are saying that Muslims in Bosanski Samac were not armed.

A. They were insufficiently, inadequately armed, compared to the others who had everything.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. In paragraph 14, you say that about a month before the 17th of April when, as you say, a conflict occurred in Bosanski Samac, you and the SDA organised guards and patrols; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And I suppose they were unarmed because you say yourself that you did not have any weapons.

A. By that time, the MUP was already divided. Serbs manned police stations in Serb villages and Croats in Croat villages. We had guards at entry points into the town, and the guards had some weapons when they rode in vehicles, but they didn't display them.

Q. So they had weapons.

A. Yes.

Q. And this conclusion you drew about the possible attack of Serbs against the town is based on the fact that every weekend complete Serb families left the town, and they explained it to their neighbours by saying that they feared an attack.

A. Yes.

Q. So the fact is that Serb families were afraid from a -- of an attack from Croatia, and based on that you draw a conclusion that they -- that there could have been a Serb attack. ²⁹⁹³⁴

A. Yes. Every Thursday or Friday, Serbs would leave the town, but they were saying that the JNA would attack -- the Serbs would attack, not Croatia.

Q. But you decided to put up guards and patrols because Serb families had left the town fearing a Serb attack?

A. No, we were not afraid of the local Serbs, we were afraid of those special units that were coming from Serbia. We were afraid of the JNA. We would never wage war with the local Serbs.

Q. Well, in your statement you mentioned only precisely local Serbs.

A. As leaving the town, not as a possible source of attack.

Q. You also mentioned them as setting up this 4th Detachment.

A. I mentioned the 4th Detachment and many people who used to be in the 4th Detachment were later disenchanted because they could see where it was going. These Specials were coming into town.

Q. We'll come to that later. Just tell me now, in this annex to your statement, there are excerpts from interviews which you say in paragraph 62 and 63 were given under duress, and you were told prior to those interviews that you should say that nobody had beaten you and the police were treating you well.

A. In Bosanski Samac, when I was interviewed by the Novi Sad TV station, if that's what you mean.

Q. Tell me now, so you were told to say that nobody beat you?

A. Yes.

Q. And you never said that.

A. There was a break during the questioning, and then there was this ²⁹⁹³⁵ break and then Stevan Todorovic said to me I would be asked whether I had been beaten and I should answer that I was not beaten.

Q. All right. Let's leave that aside now, that they asked you to say that you were not beaten. Is it correct what you said then about the arming of Muslims in Bosanski Samac? Let me be quite specific: Is it true that Alija Fitozovic, on behalf of the Municipal Board of the SDA, had direct contact with Slavonski Brod from where he obtained weapons from members of the SDA? This is in line 20 of your interview, on page 0089624.

A. I don't know whether he had permanent contacts. I doubt that he had permanent contacts, but he went from time to time.

Q. And obtained weapons?

A. Obtained the ammunition I referred to.

Q. And is the other claim right, also on page 624 in lines 22 and 23, that in these activities he was assisted by a certain Rifat Atic, nicknamed Ice, and Izet Izetbegovic?

A. Yes.

Q. Oh, so that's correct too.

A. Yes, it's these three men.

Q. You stated then that the question of arming within the SDA constantly burdened your meetings at lower levels and higher levels; is that right?

A. Yes. People simply felt threatened, frightened. Nobody had any weapons whereas others did. Present, we're going to get killed, we're going to get slaughtered, and you have no weapons, and you haven't got any ²⁹⁹³⁶ money, and you simply don't know what to do.

Q. Mr. Tihic, is it true that precisely as president you told Alija Fitozovic and Izet Izetbegovic to take care of arming and that the two of them had all contacts in that respect as well as coordination with the top echelons of the party?

A. Yes, I did ask them to take care of security.

Q. Is it right that with regard to arming, Izet Izetbegovic contacted a person who you knew then as Senaid [phoen], and this was Senaid Memic [phoen]. This is 0089265. Is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Is it correct what you said then, that the first quantity of arms delivered to Bosanski Samac contained 30 automatic rifles and five pistols? On page 625.

A. You mean what was obtained from Memic.

Q. Yes. These weapons were brought from Croatia.

A. Memic, Senaid Memic, the person you mentioned just now.

Q. All right. And soon after that, another delivery followed, including 50 automatic rifles and two mortars; is that right?

A. Yes. This was on the very eve of the attack on Samac. This was placed at the Territorial Defence depot.

Q. I'm just mentioning what was involved. And today you claim in your statement -- you said awhile ago you didn't have any weapons. All of this was delivered at the beginning of 1992, January, February; right? So all of four months prior to what happened in April; is that right?

A. Well, March, April, or perhaps even February, I don't know. ²⁹⁹³⁷

Q. All right. And we heard from you that as for the reported attack of Serbs on town, you found out about this in mid-March, a month prior to the attack.

A. Well, that's what people said, but we didn't know exactly when the town would be attacked.

Q. Even before that it is not contested that you obtained weapons as early as the beginning of the year and that you were preparing for something, attack or defence. What? Which one of the two?

A. Defence, what else? There were so few of us there. We simply tried to survive, if possible. There were only 8 per cent of us.

Q. Is it correct that Izetbegovic and Fitozovic obtained different calibres of ammunition, a large number of explosives? This is what you said during your interview.

A. You keep repeating one and the same thing, you see. I mean, you've talked about this ammunition and these grenades so many times. Yes, it's correct.

Q. But the dates are different. Also 100 kilogrammes of explosives that was intended to carry out various actions in the territory of the municipality; is that what you stated?

A. I don't know exactly if there were 100 kilogrammes. Possibly. I never saw this. And I think that this entire quantity was taken away from Fitozovic afterwards.

Q. Well, a certain quantity was found, as it says here on ERN 623 in lines 10 to 21, in the house of Alija Fitozovic and the other one at the SDA, or rather, the Islamic Community's presence; is that correct? ²⁹⁹³⁸

A. I think it only could have been found in the house of Alija Fitozovic, not at SDA premises. That's not correct.

Q. Well, I'm reading what it says here on this page that ends with number 623.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please be asked to read the numbers slowly, interpreter's note.

JUDGE MAY: You've heard that. You're asked to read out numbers more slowly for the interpreters.

Would the legal officer come up, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 00892623. That is the page number.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So please look at this document according to which Mr. Fitozovic obtained explosives from Slavonski Brod, 100 kilogrammes were found in his apartment, or, rather, part of it was found in his apartment and another part at the SDA premises, or, rather, the premises of the Islamic Community.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters again note that they do not have the document.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it could not have been found at the premises of the Islamic Community, only at his apartment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I just read out what it says here.

A. All right.

Q. Is it correct that on the same occasion when explosives were ²⁹⁹³⁹ found, that also a schematic of the transmission lines that had already been blown up was found in his possession, as well as a schematic of those that were about to be blown up?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. Oh, you don't know about that.

A. Well, he worked for the power company, so perhaps he had these different diagrams.

Q. All right. I would now like to remind you of the fact that towards the very end of this interview with the journalist you were asked whether there was the possibility of the Serbs and Muslims continuing to live together normally, whether you had any advice to give to either one of the two ethnic groups. I assume that you remember that. I will jog your memory in terms of what you answered.

You said --

JUDGE MAY: Let's see, first of all, whether the witness remembers what you're claiming or asking him about.

Do you remember this, Mr. Tihic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember. I remember that.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This is what you answered, I am quoting you: "I am so pleased that you're asking me this. Had you asked me this before all these events, perhaps the answer would have been similar, but at any rate, all those who pursue the policy of the party should experience certain things ²⁹⁹⁴⁰ directly and see what all the consequences of this suffering are and then it would be far easier for them to reach some kind of agreement. We in Bosnia think along those lines, that we have to live together. There will be these three republics, or I don't know, these three cantons or whatever it is called in formal terms, but yet again we will have to cooperate. We live in a Bosnian Yugoslav territory. These borders that will exist among cantons, that will exist among states, will, probably after five or ten years, be put down altogether. So why are we killing each other over that? I believe that any Bosnia, regardless of whether it is independent, sovereign, international recognised, is not worth any sacrifices and victims. So all of those who represent the Muslim people in that way would have to bear this in mind, because if an ethnic group that accounts for one-third of the population of Bosnia cannot be taken slave, and it is not all right to enslave anyone regardless of whether they are one fifth or whatever. If somebody wants to be a Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, go ahead, but nobody can be forced to do anything." Is that what you said?

A. Yes, that is what I said. And you know under which circumstances this statement was taken.

Q. Well, all right. Nobody probably suggested to you to give this kind of broader political explanation regarding the territory of Yugoslavia, that it was pointless to get killed for some kind of independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. Well, that's for sure as far as this unified area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Yugoslavia, the European Union, well, that's for sure, ²⁹⁹⁴¹ with borders disappearing and co-existence in spite of differences.

Q. Well, that is what the former Yugoslavia was.

A. Yes.

Q. And you decided to secede from it and to create these borders. Isn't that right, Mr. Tihic?

A. No, that's not right. And we could have a long discussion about that now but we strove for Yugoslavia, for a community of equal peoples. Unfortunately, the Serbs and Croats, especially the politicians who represented the Serb people, did not wish to have that. They wanted to have a domination of the Serbs, and that led to the disintegration of Yugoslavia, which is where we all felt comfortable.

Q. Yugoslavia was the best solution for all the Yugoslav peoples; isn't that right, Mr. Tihic?

A. Yes, that's right, it was the best solution, but regrettably, they could not keep it. It's not only the Bosniaks who could have preserved Yugoslavia, you see.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. This is your own position. Nobody imposed it upon you what I quoted to you just now.

A. Well, you see, statements that are taken in police stations where you're beaten, where they do all these things to you, and then before this statement Crni comes to you and says, "You are going to go and make a statement and then you're going to say that you are giving instructions how someone is going to shoot from Slavonia," whatever, so consciously or unconsciously, you try to gear your statement towards the person who is compelling you to make it. ²⁹⁹⁴²

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic.

A. Well, you should be in that position and then you will see what kind of freedom you have in terms of giving a statement. There is no freedom there whatsoever.

Q. In paragraph 17, you see that about 20 days prior to the attack, the alleged attack on Bosanski Samac, in front of the coffee bar of Rifat Atic, members of the 4th Detachment, one Serb and two Muslims, shot in the air and that on that occasion two persons were wounded. Is that what you say?

A. They shot in the direction of the coffee bar, and that's when the police came up. Thinking that they were shooting at them, they responded, they returned fire.

Q. Is it correct that these two persons that you refer to were Muslims, Nijaz Ramusovic, nicknamed Tota, and a certain Mersad, were precisely members of the 4th Detachment?

A. Yes.

Q. And fire was opened at them for no reason whatsoever.

A. Well, there was a reason, because they were the first to shoot, you see. They were the first to shoot. And then the police responded and the two of them were wounded.

Q. Well, they were members of the 4th Detachment, although they are Muslims.

A. They were members of the 4th Detachment, and this was the police.

Q. All right. You know very well and I assume they both Ramusovic and this Mersud -- ²⁹⁹⁴³

A. Mersad.

Q. All right. I don't know the exact name, so of course you can correct me. According to the information I received, they did not open fire. They were ambushed because they were members of this 4th Detachment.

A. That's not right. That's not right.

Q. I see.

A. They did the shooting, and it was after their shooting that the police shot at them.

Q. And do you know that those who shot at them, who wounded them, were Adis Izetbegovic and Sead Srna, members of the reserve police force?

A. Yes.

Q. So those two members of the reserve police force shot at these two Muslims. Both sides were Muslims.

A. Yes, both were Muslims. And these two policemen were on duty.

Q. All right, but this Adis Izetbegovic is also a relative of Alija Izetbegovic?

A. He is Izet Izetbegovic's son and therefore a distant relative of President Izetbegovic.

Q. In addition to the mentioned Muslims, you certainly know the names of Fadil Topcagic, Avdo Duhic [phoen] Fikret Sajakovic [phoen], Kadir Korolic, Fehir Kapetanovic, Alija Palesovic [phoen], Sali Sadinovic [phoen], Ibro Ibrolic [phoen], Aslo Bajaktarevic [phoen] Ramo Bajaktarevic [phoen], Dzemal Jasenica [phoen] --

JUDGE MAY: You can't reel off a whole series of names like that. ²⁹⁹⁴⁴ He won't be able to possibly answer. What is the question? In what connection should he know these names?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The connection is that these Muslims who shot at those two Muslims who were members of the 4th Detachment that took care of the safety and security of the municipality, that they had proclaimed them traitors, Chetnik vojvodas, things like that; is that right, Mr. Tihic?

A. The persons whose names you read out were members of the 4th Detachment, the 4th Detachment of the JNA.

Q. And these men who shot at these people, did they proclaim them to be traitors and Chetnik vojvodas?

A. Well, not probably those two who did the shooting, but these people who were in the 4th Detachment were labelled that way, that they were collaborators of the JNA, that they were Chetnik vojvodas. Well, it depended on the position that various people held.

Q. All right. I did not even read out the entire list because Mr. May interrupted me, but I assume that you know all these people by name and that they were all members of the 4th Detachment, and they were labelled as being traitors because they cooperated with the JNA. Is that right?

A. I know most of them, and that is how the public viewed them.

Q. Do you remember that on the 12th of April, 1992, Alija Izetbegovic ordered an all-out attack against JNA barracks in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. I'm not aware of that.

Q. Is it correct that on the 13th of April, a day later, the ²⁹⁹⁴⁵ president of the Municipal Assembly, Mato Nujic, issued an order to the TO staff of the municipality to establish a unit?

A. Yes, that's in accordance with the law, to establish a unit of the Territorial Defence.

Q. All right. Do you remember that on the 16th of April, commander of the TO staff, Marko Bozanovic, informed the republican staff in Sarajevo that on the 15th of April in Bosanski Samac, a Municipal Staff was established with about 1.800 military conscripts, Croats and Muslims only?

A. I don't think they were only Muslims and Croats. I think there were Serbs there too and whether that was the figure, what he exactly wrote in the letter, I don't know. I assume that he simply provided information about the establishment of the staff, how many soldiers were involved and what the ethnic composition was. But at any rate, among them there were Serbs. To a lesser extent, but at any rate, they accounted for the proportionate number in the municipality.

Q. Well, Mr. Tihic, is it true that on the 16th and 17th of April, Croatian armed formations attempted to cross the river across the Sava River -- the bridge across the Sava River and launch an attack on Bosanski Samac together with those Croat units?

A. Not correct.

Q. Three persons were killed in these attacks. Please refresh your memory. The 16th and the 17th of April.

A. No. On these dates, Specials from Serbia attacked. The JNA and the Serbian Territorial Defence. It was they who attacked Samac. ²⁹⁹⁴⁶

Q. Where did you take these Specials from Serbia from?

A. They landed in JNA helicopters from Batkusa.

Q. Was it a JNA unit?

A. I don't know. They were Red Berets, and the JNA brought them there.

Q. But from what you know, the JNA brought them.

A. Yes. A client who came to see me in my office told me that. The JNA brought Red Berets.

Q. You know nothing about those people killed in the attack when Croatian armed formations tried to cross the bridge?

A. Armed formations from Croatia did not try to cross the bridge, and when Samac was attacked, from what I know, these members of the special units killed one Serb person by mistake. Only one person was killed. Maybe even three. I'm not sure.

Q. But you know they were killed by mistake, not during the attack. Is it true that on the 18th of April, a new attack was launched --

JUDGE MAY: He knows no such thing. You continually assist your view of something or other. What we're hearing is not your view but the witness's account. That is what matters, not your views. So we'll get on better if you ask your question, accept the answer for the time being, and then move on and not continually answer with the -- argue with the witnesses and make tendentious points. Now, let's hurry up. Time is short.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

JUDGE MAY: No, don't argue. Stop arguing. Just get on with it. ²⁹⁹⁴⁷

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm doing, but you don't seem to be paying attention to the fact that I'm asking questions about different dates. First I asked about the 16th and the 17th, and he said it was not true, then I asked him about the 18th.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the camp on the 18th. I didn't know what was going on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know about an attack on a column of women and children from Trnje in the direction of Prud?

A. When was that?

Q. On the 19th of April.

A. No, I was in detained in the camp then.

JUDGE MAY: You heard his answer; he was in the camp. You should pay attention to it and we'll get on more quickly.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I will follow the days as well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know anything at all, Mr. Tihic, about the fact that from Croatia 108th, 124th and 139th Brigade of the ZNG were transferred across the river?

A. I don't know, but I would know if it happened.

Q. You didn't know about this first thing I asked because you were in the camp. You should know about the second thing.

A. I would have known if so many brigades had crossed over and came -- come to Samac. ²⁹⁹⁴⁸

Q. Did you find anything about it after you were detained in the camp?

A. No.

Q. You don't know about the presence of these brigades in this area?

A. I know they were in Orasje, Derventa, Brod.

Q. All that is in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Are they all armed forces of the Republic of Croatia?

A. These units, as you said, were units of the HVO, of the Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. And you know nothing about any units of the Republic of Croatia present in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. In that period, no.

Q. Very well. Now let us come back to this 4th Detachment. These Muslims that I enumerated to you and you confirmed they were considered as traitors and so on, were they members of the TO or the JNA?

A. They were members of the JNA, because the 4th Detachment was formally, legally, and in reality part of the JNA.

Q. So despite this order not to join the JNA, they were members of the JNA rather than the Territorial Defence. Very well, Mr. Tihic. In paragraph 16, you say that on the 16th of April, a joint meeting was held of all presidents of parties so as to decide who would defend which part of the city in the event of attack by Croatian armed forces probably coming from the other side of the Sava River.

A. No, not in the event of attack by Croatian forces. We were just talking about possible attacks. They could have come from the Serbian ²⁹⁹⁴⁹ side, from the JNA, or the Croatian side, and the 4th Detachment was afraid from -- afraid of an attack from the Croatian side, so we told them, you patrol the bank of the Sava River. We, on the other hand, were afraid of an attack from Serbian villages, and we said we would patrol the other side.

Q. You say: "The night before Samac was attacked Bozanovic, Fitizovic, Zaric, and the presidents of all parties held a meeting to decide who would defend which part of the city in case of an attack. Muslims and Croats did not think that Croatian armed forces were going to attack, but the Serbs thought it might happen."

A. Yes, that's true. We were all there, and that was our discussion.

Q. And you said a moment ago that already in mid-March you knew that Serbs would attack Bosanski Samac. And now you hold this meeting and you don't know anything for sure and you are bargaining and guessing where an attack might come from and how to defend the town.

A. You see, Mr. Milosevic, we simply assumed there could be various options, but we also believed at the same time that it would not happen, and Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, all of us sat down together. And if those Specials and the JNA had not come, we would never have started fighting.

Q. Didn't you say a moment ago that Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic - and I'm using the terms you used - tried to rise above it all and to treat the Croat, the Serb, and the Muslim sides equally?

A. Well, that's what he said, but in reality he distributed weapons only to the Serbs.

Q. Very well. Is it true that even before the 17th of April there ²⁹⁹⁵⁰ were constant armed provocations by members of the 108th and 129th Brigade of the Croatian armed forces?

A. I don't know about that. It did not take place in Samac.

Q. Is it true Mato Nujic, president of the Municipal Assembly, and Mato Matarevic [phoen] told you personally about the joint plan in the event of an attack by the ZNG, the HOS, the Croatian armed forces, and the HVO against Bosanski Samac?

A. No. I wasn't told about it nor would I have ever agreed to it.

Q. You quote in another paragraph, 22, that Arkan attacked the police station in Bosanski Samac.

A. You know what, we called all these Specials by one name. We didn't distinguish between Arkan's men, the Grey Wolves, or other units. But it's true that Specials, member of special units, attacked the police station.

Q. All right. But you mention Arkan, but according to my information that was gathered by my associates, Arkan was never present in Bosanski Samac.

A. I meant his units.

Q. What units are you talking about? He only had a small group of volunteers, he didn't have any units.

A. Well, that's how they held themselves out, Arkan's men. How large the unit was, I don't know.

Q. All right. Tell me, during all these events, did you ever see Arkan anywhere in Samac?

A. No, I didn't. ²⁹⁹⁵¹

Q. I understand that you saw and you know that there was a number of volunteers who were active in Samac, but I don't know on what basis you link them with Arkan or the Red Berets, so could you please explain.

A. You see, as far as the Red Berets are concerned, I already explained how they arrived in Samac on JNA helicopters, and they wore appropriate patches and insignia. And I know Arkan's men because they were in the camp, they beat us, they forced us to sing songs.

Q. In Samac?

A. Yes, in Samac. And they forced us to sing songs about Arkan's Tigers. I don't know how many there were. You couldn't talk normally to them, you couldn't look them in the eyes. You had to keep your head down, you were beaten all the time, you had to sing songs about Arkan's Tigers. Whether they were five or 50, I have no idea.

Q. Well, that's the reason why I'm asking, because according to the information gathered for me by my associates, Arkan had never been in Bosanski Samac. But let us go on through your testimony. Soon after these events in April, you were arrested, and you were detained in the police station in Samac after these events on the 18th of April.

A. In the headquarters of the TO.

Q. So it was the headquarters of the TO?

A. It was in the same street. The police station faced the headquarters of the TO and I was detained at different times in both places.

Q. In paragraph 29, the same afternoon, over the local radio you made ²⁹⁹⁵² an appeal to Muslims to stop fighting, and after that, one soldier told you you were free to go home.

A. You know what actually happened then.

Q. I'm only asking you about what is written in paragraph 29.

A. It's true that I gave a statement. I was interrogated by this member of a special unit from Serbia who used the Ekavian dialect, who made me make that statement on the radio and to appeal on Muslims, although they never shot on anybody, they only shot in the air, to spread fear around town, and I had to say what he told me to say. I don't know what his name was, Bailji [phoen] or something. He was from Serbia. He interrogated me and he asked me to say this on the radio.

Q. While you are speaking about volunteers, do you, Mr. Tihic, have any idea how many volunteers from Serbia, from the area of Raska or Sandzak, how many thousands were in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. I don't think that there were any -- in fact, I don't think there were any from Sandzak directly. There were some people who had moved from Sandzak to Bosnia-Herzegovina and resided there for a while, but if you're talking about people who came directly from Sandzak to join the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was hardly possible because that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina was under occupation. It was not possible to go through.

Q. So you claim there were no volunteers from Sandzak in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

A. No, no particular volunteers who were registered as such or had their own unit. ²⁹⁹⁵³

Q. I'm not talking about a special unit. Were they present in your forces?

A. It would have been difficult for them to come to Bosnia and Herzegovina in the first place. If there were any, there could not have been many.

Q. Even the commander of your Main Staff was Sefer Halilovic.

A. Well, he first was employed by the JNA, then came to Bosnia from Gjakove.

Q. Do you know where he comes from? Is he from Serbia, from Prijepolje? Did he ever live in Bosnia?

A. He may be originally from Sandzak.

Q. Did he do his military service in Gjakove?

A. As far as I know, yes.

Q. So he didn't even do his military service in Bosnia.

A. I don't know.

Q. Let us move on. Now, this second part of the question you didn't really answer. After that statement, after that appeal you made over the radio, the soldier told you you were free to go home.

A. Correct.

Q. However, when you heard the shooting outside the building, you did not want to go out, because you were afraid of getting shot, and they could say that you got shot while trying to escape.

A. Yes, because when they were taking me to the police station, Stevan Todorovic whispered something into the ear of this policeman, something that I thought might have been, "Liquidate him." So when they ²⁹⁹⁵⁴ told me to go, they were standing behind me with automatic weapons, and I thought it was the perfect occasion to kill me.

Q. I'm only quoting you. You said in principle it was on a voluntary basis that you asked to return to the police station.

A. Yes, because I didn't want to get killed.

Q. But what you say is, "In principle, I did it on a voluntary basis." But if they were the kind of people that you say they were, doesn't it occur to you they could have killed you in the police station, if they had wanted to, or in any other place if they had wanted to?

A. Yes. They also could have killed me in the police station.

Q. Doesn't that prove, Mr. Tihic, that they didn't want to kill you?

A. No, it doesn't prove that, because, you see, I had only arrived at the police station and they took me immediately to the Samac radio station. I didn't know what was going on at the time in the police station, that there were 50 people already detained who were being beaten and tortured. I thought the police station was safe and that's why I wanted to stay there.

Q. All right, you explained that. You spent ten days in the police station in Samac. Is that correct, Mr. Tihic? Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I didn't hear you the first time. And then you say that in that interview you had given to the journalist from the Borba newspaper you were beaten by some people who were not local Serbs but members of paramilitary units.

A. That's what they wrote, members of paramilitary units. They were ²⁹⁹⁵⁵ members of special units from Serbia.

Q. Were they paramilitary units or not, Mr. Tihic?

A. They could not have been paramilitary units with the kind of weapons they had and the kind of uniforms they wore. In my opinion, they were special units.

Q. It is -- in your opinion, were they part of the local TO?

A. No, they were independent; they acted on their own, they didn't listen to anybody. They had some sort of command elsewhere.

Q. If they didn't listen to anybody, then they could not have been part of the regular forces.

A. But they had the support of the regular forces in terms of weapons and everything else.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. Although you claim in your statement that both in Batajnica and in Sremska Mitrovica you were beaten and mistreated by members of the JNA, which I must confess sounds very improbable to me, you said in your interview given to the Borba newspaper --

JUDGE MAY: If you're going to suggest that, the witness must have a chance to answer.

The accused says it sounds improbable to him that you were beaten by members of the JNA in Batajnica and Sremska Mitrovica, Mr. Tihic. Do you want to answer that? Were you beaten by members of that organisation or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was beaten by members of the JNA.

Mr. Milosevic, I found that incredible too, that children, ²⁹⁹⁵⁶ soldiers were beating me just because my name was Sulejman. Regular soldiers. Believe me, I was not the only person there. There were so many of us. And also reservists were there too and regular soldiers.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. You say in your interview to Borba: "Instead of a few hours, they kept me in prison for ten days. I don't have to point out to you specifically what I went through there. They beat me, they threatened me." I'm quoting your interview to Borba, a Belgrade daily newspaper, and this newspaper published what you said. So you say: "They beat me, they threatened me, but I must say that these were not local Serbs but members of some Serb paramilitary units that had quite simply occupied this area. The local Serbs in Bosanski Samac and in Brcko even provided me with food and tried to console me, saying everything would end well."

And now this is the point: "But only when they handed me over to the JNA I knew for sure that my life had been saved." Are these your words?

A. Yes, these are my words.

Q. So only when they handed you over to the JNA you were certain that your life had been saved.

A. At that time, I still believed -- we still believed in the JNA, because, out there, anybody could come and kill you, just like that, without being held responsible. And when you were with the JNA, then at least your name was registered. And when we were in Brcko with the JNA, the JNA did not let them beat us. ²⁹⁹⁵⁷

Q. Your life had been saved, Mr. Tihic.

A. But I'm just telling you what the atmosphere was like, the members of these special units and everything.

Q. Well, this reflected your position, which was a realistic position. Only when you were handed over to the JNA, you knew that your life had been saved; is that right?

Now, speaking of the prison and the conditions in Sremska Mitrovica, you say: "We read that this prison and other prisons are being called concentration camps, but there is not even a C here from camp. It's not as if we were living at home with our families, but things can't be better in times like these. After all, my friends and I are not real prisoners here. We are hostages. We are being treated better than we thought we'd be treated, but nobody can be happy if they are behind such walls." Are these your words, Mr. Tihic?

A. I don't know whether these are my words, but we were beaten in Mitrovica after breakfast, after lunch, and after dinner, every single time. I was never beaten more in my life than in Mitrovica. And also, our lives were threatened. But perhaps my life was in greater danger elsewhere, but I was never beaten as much as I was beaten in Mitrovica. You know, in three or four months the JNA was transformed to such a great extent. The JNA in Brcko that did not allow us to be beaten to the JNA in Mitrovica where they beat us, where they forced us to sing Chetnik songs and all these things, all these things were so bad.

Q. You were there as a prisoner under the control of the JNA in Sremska Mitrovica; is that right? ²⁹⁹⁵⁸

A. Yes, yes. It was a camp, a concentration camp within the prison, the former prison.

Q. Yes. That was, as you say, something that was under JNA control, but then you say here that there is not even the initial C of the word camp there let alone it being a full-fledged camp.

A. That's not true. Read my statement. When the warden of the camp took me out and said that I would be interviewed by Sky News, that I would be interviewed for Borba and he wanted us to say that nobody beat us, that it was clean and tidy, that we could go out for walks, that we had sufficient food. And of course if you want to be exchanged, that's what you have to say. And of course I had to say that.

Q. All right. At one point in your statement, you corroborate the claims made in that interview, and in other parts of the statement you say that you were interviewed under duress, and you say that you were beaten in Sremska Mitrovica.

A. Yes, I was beaten. Everybody was beaten.

Q. You say that you gave this interview on the 12th -- 12th or 13th August, 1993 by the BBC.

A. I think it was Sky News.

Q. All right. But already on the 13th of August this interview was published in the Belgrade daily Borba. That's quite clear.

A. Well, this was about two or three days before I was to be exchanged.

Q. In this same paragraph, you say that the new warden, a JNA lieutenant, told you to say that they had not beaten you, that meals and ²⁹⁹⁵⁹ walks and medical assistance were invariably provided, and that you could say that Arkan's men beat you in the prison in Bosanski Samac and that you should say to the Red Cross that you do not wish to return to Bosnia but that you wish to remain in Serbia.

A. Yes. I asked him, "Well, can I say that I was beaten in Bosnia?" And he said, "Well, whichever way you want. You can say it, but you know I would not advise you to do that. Your sister lives in Rijeka. You know they can come to Rijeka too."

Q. Well, I do have this interview of yours, Mr. Tihic. Since you said that he told you all of these things concerning meals, walks, medical care, show me a place in your interview where you refer to these meals, walks, medical care, or show me where you say in this interview that you wished to remain in Serbia and things like that. Everything that you said that he ordered you to state is not contained in your interview. So you did not state any of this, and you claim that he ordered you to state that and that, under duress, you stated what he ordered you to state. In this interview, there is no such thing.

A. We did have to state that and now it's a different story whether somebody actually wrote this down or published it or televised it, but that is what we were told to do, and that is what we said.

Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. Well, didn't you speak actually contrary to these alleged instructions given by this lieutenant? Didn't you state the opposite in the interview, that you were dying to go back home to your family, and that you're appealing to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina that they should not forget you? ²⁹⁹⁶⁰

A. That's what they asked us to do too. I even had to write a letter to President Izetbegovic to tell him to release some soldiers so that they would release us from the prison in Mitrovica and in Morina in Montenegro.

Q. So what are you being asked to say, that you wanted to stay in Serbia?

A. Yes, that's what we were asked.

Q. Or that you should ask to go back home to your family, which is what the interview says. What were you asked to do? You cannot have both.

A. They asked me to state that I want to stay in Serbia, that I do not wish to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. But you did not state that.

A. I did not.

Q. And they told you to state that you had sufficient food and that you went out for walks and that you had medical care, and they did not ask you that you wanted to return to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's what you stated.

A. That's what I stated, and I also said what I said about the hygiene and walks, et cetera.

Q. Can you show us this in the interview, where it says so?

A. I don't know whether it was written down in the interview but that's what they asked me. That's what they were afraid of the most, you see, that we should not talk about the beatings, and of course you would be crazy to talk about the beatings because after the journalists left, you had to stay with them. ²⁹⁹⁶¹

Q. Well, I am saying the exact opposite. This is 00516378 and 00516379. Those are the ERN numbers. Please bear that in mind. Thank you, Mr. Tihic. No further questions.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much, but it seems to me that we have a problem here. It is true that that document that was referred to a moment ago by Mr. Groome had been disclosed in March without the indication of the name, and we found out only today the name of the person who provided the document, namely his notes. So in practical terms, Mr. Milosevic was unable until today to review this document and see if he had anything to challenge regarding the document. I believe it is my duty to point this out, and I believe he should be given the opportunity to review this document maybe tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: You know, time is against us in all this. This document was disclosed. What we can do is this: He will have the opportunity to review the document. If there is some substantial matter which would require further cross-examination, we may have to ask the witness to come back, but I think it would be better if we could finish the witness's evidence today rather than waste further time on it.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may make a suggestion. The witness's plane leaves tomorrow afternoon. Could I ask that Mr. Milosevic be required to read that material this evening and advise the Court tomorrow morning first thing if he -- if there is a substantial matter, and perhaps it could be dealt with while Mr. Tihic is still in the country on this occasion.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. ²⁹⁹⁶² Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, first of all, I should like to ask you to explain to the Honourable Judges a couple of things from your statement from February 1995. I don't think Mr. Milosevic dealt with it. Would you please look at paragraph 4 of that statement. Have you found this? It is tab 2.

You say here in paragraph 4: "Before the 1990 elections, the SDS, SDA, and HDZ had good relations. We all wanted to take away power from the communists." Is that correct?

A. Yes. We wanted to assume power from them.

Q. As you said a moment ago, and as it says in your first statement, you were a member of the League of Communists until 1989, and then just a year later you worked for toppling the communists.

A. Well, all these new parties were mainly made up of former members of the League of Communists.

Q. All right. You also say that you supported one another. But regarding the future of Yugoslavia, there were always differences in the approaches of the SDS on one hand and HDZ and SDA, that is, Croats and Muslims.

A. Yes.

Q. And you added then: "The SDS and the HDZ believed in a confederation supporting independent republics while the SDS wanted a strong federation and a whole Yugoslavia."

You said a moment ago that the best solution for Muslims was Yugoslavia, where everybody felt comfortable. How do you explain then ²⁹⁹⁶³ that already in 1990 your party supported independence for the republics?

A. We wanted either some sort of federation or stronger confederation. In 1990, we were still far from any discussions or declarations of independence. We were talking about some sort of loose federation.

Q. But I did quote you a moment ago, and I'm asking you to explain to the Judges. When you were giving this statement, did you also adjust your views, as stated here, which seem to be contrary to what you said today? In other words, even then when you thought that Yugoslavia was the best solution, did you have to adjust that opinion because you were giving this statement to the investigators of this Tribunal?

A. No. Even today whenever you are giving a statement, you are asked to be concise. You are asked not to go into details, and you cannot really state all your views in full. These are broad political issues that are presented here only briefly. If you give me an opportunity to explain how I saw the possibility for independent republics, what kind of federation, et cetera, et cetera, I could do that. I thought then and I think now that Yugoslavia should be a union of equitable peoples.

Q. Now, look at paragraph 2 of this much broader statement. Twenty-two, paragraph 22, from year 1994. You said somewhere in the middle of that paragraph -- but before I quote you, I have to say that a moment ago, you particularly emphasised that if the JNA had not interfered, none of what happened would have happened.

A. Yes.

Q. And you say in the middle of this paragraph,: "Safet ²⁹⁹⁶⁴ Hadzialijagic, nicknamed Pop, member of the SDA, came to see me and said that the JNA should offer to be a buffer zone between Arkan's men and the townspeople, but I was opposed to that." Is that correct?

A. Safet Hadzialijagic called me on the phone and presented this idea.

Q. And you were against it.

A. Well, by that time Samac had already been attacked and I told him I had to think about it.

Q. But then you say here that Ibrahim Salkic came, said that Nikolic had called him, and said that the JNA was prepared to give guarantees if weapons were surrendered.

A. Well, if you had to choose between the JNA or Arkan's men, JNA seems better if you are already under attack and people are being killed.

Q. Now, look at paragraph 54. You say here: "In the course of the evening on the 26th or the 27th of April, at approximately 10.00 p.m., two lorries came to pick up about 50 of us who were supposed to be taken to Brcko. There were no Arkan's men in the street." And you go on to say: "The prisoners were afraid that Arkan's soldiers would appear all of a sudden and prevent the JNA from taking them to Brcko." Does that mean that JNA was actually protecting these prisoners precisely from something that could have happened if the JNA had not been there? Is that what you meant?

A. In this specific case, we were so badly beaten by those Specials that we were hardly breathing. And when the JNA came at Zaric's request, they actually saved us; otherwise, we would have been killed. ²⁹⁹⁶⁵

Q. Then in paragraph 56 you say: "The army doctor gave me an injection and put something on his face to make him recover consciousness. While we were imprisoned at Brcko we received medical treatment, and the JNA mainly protected us."

A. That is true.

Q. Just one more topic. You speak of Sremska Mitrovica as a concentration camp. You were a lawyer and a judge in those times and you know full well that this prison in Sremska Mitrovica is actually a prison for the detention of criminals, and it holds at all times several thousand -- several thousands of people who were convicted of crimes.

A. It was established during the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and part of it was a concentration camp. One part which was fenced in and separate.

Q. And you say that the Red Cross came to visit you only on the 22nd of June. Prior to that date, did anyone beat you?

A. Yes, they did, regularly, every day.

Q. Just two minor topics. Paragraph 103. When they were taking you back in that convoy of 1.500 prisoners, you were stopped in Serbian villages and they allowed villagers, you state here, to get into buses and beat you.

A. Correct.

Q. And then you say the convoy was accompanied by a large number of press representatives, at some point even the Red Cross was present, and the UNPROFOR men who told you to keep your heads down lest you be hit by a sniper. Is it possible that it all happened in the presence of the UNPROFOR, the Red Cross and everyone else, and the press, that they ²⁹⁹⁶⁶ allowed villagers to get into buses and beat you?

A. Let me tell you: The journalists came only to the venue of exchange in Nemetin. As for this road, which was over 100 kilometres long across Vojvodina, there were no journalists there. But even in Nemetin, where there were journalists and the Red Cross representatives, they still beat us. And one major approached this Montenegrin man who was on the bus and told him, "What are you doing, you dumb fool? We didn't beat them for several days so that they wouldn't look black and blue."

Q. Just one more question. If you were not a lawyer, I wouldn't be asking you this, but since you are, I have to ask you this: You said in paragraph 106: "A full month after all of this happened, when I came home I was afraid to fall asleep. I went to see a doctor for three broken ribs and my four front teeth that had been broken."

Please, since you were an attorney by occupation, did you get an X-ray of those broken ribs, and especially did you take a photo of those four missing teeth, and did you turn these photographs over to the Prosecution?

A. Yes. When I came to see the doctor, X-rays were made.

Q. No. I'm asking you do you have a medical document, a certificate, for these broken ribs and missing teeth?

A. I think I submitted them when I testified in the Samac trial. There were X-rays or perhaps doctor's findings.

Q. Are these teeth still missing?

A. They were broken, and I had fillings done.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. ²⁹⁹⁶⁷ Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Mr. Tihic, Mr. Milosevic has expressed some doubt about the statement that you made to the television reporters from Novi Sad. I want to ask you about your treatment briefly before you had given that statement on Novi Sad television, and if you're able to answer the questions simply by yes or no, that may save us a bit of time. Prior to giving that statement to Novi Sad, so that the Court can better understand your state of mind, had you had a gun, pistol, placed in your mouth? I'm referring to paragraph 44 of your statement.

A. Just before I made my statement, no one put a pistol in my mouth, but Djordjevic did threaten me, and he asked that I be brought down there and that I should be careful about what I say. And Stevan Todorovic also threatened me and asked me to say that I was never beaten. And all of this happened in front of the journalist who heard all of this. What kind of journalist is that?

Q. I'm not talking about the time immediately prior to the statement but in your treatment leading up to the time you gave the statement. Can you -- as a result of your beatings --

A. Yes, yes. There were beatings, there was mistreatment, there were threats to shoot with that white pistol with nickel put against my temple and then also putting a pistol in my mouth and threatening to shoot. Of course I was afraid. All these same people were there again, and I was in that kind of atmosphere, and that's when I was supposed to give a statement. And they threatened me, and --

Q. Prior to this time, as a result of the beatings, had you sustained ²⁹⁹⁶⁸ injuries to your kidneys, as described in paragraph 54 of your statement?

A. Yes. I had sustained these injuries. I urinated blood. And the late commander of the police station in Samac, even when these Specials were not there, he would bring in a doctor to see me, or they'd bring me lemonade or whatever, because the two of us had known each other for a long time, and we lived in the same town.

Q. Now, in your description of your treatment by the JNA, it appears that different members of the JNA treated you differently at different times and in different places. I want to now focus on your treatment by the JNA while you were in Serbia in the period between May and August. During that period of time, did you witness prisoners being beaten by JNA personnel using brass knuckles?

A. Yes, I did see them using brass knuckles. They were beating them with that, a group that came in from Bosanski Brod. And usually the prisoner would sit on the floor, handcuffed, and they would hit him on the back, on the head. Aljo even died. He could no longer take it. He started urinating, he didn't know what he was saying.

Q. Were some of the men forced to perform sexual acts upon each other by members of the JNA?

A. Yes, yes, they were. There were situations like that too. They made an American have sex with a soldier from Croatia, Zdravko.

Q. Sir, during the two-and-a-half-month period that you were incarcerated in Serbia in the custody of the JNA, were you ever charged with a crime?

A. Never. I was never formally interviewed. I never signed a ²⁹⁹⁶⁹ statement. Once this major from Batajnica took me for an interrogation, but there was never a record of that. Also, there were never any charges brought against me, nothing.

MR. GROOME: Nothing further.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tihic, that concludes your evidence, at least as far as today is concerned. Would you be kind enough to have yourself available, to be available tomorrow morning in case there are some more questions. But if not, thank you for coming to the Tribunal, that does conclude your evidence apart from the matter which I have mentioned, and therefore, you're free to go, but if you would be available tomorrow morning.

One administrative matter I'm going to deal with --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

JUDGE MAY: -- and it's this: We will admit, under Rule 89(F), the statement of Mr. Dean Manning.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I raise a brief procedural matter?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with respect to the testimony or anticipated testimony of General Clark. Pursuant to the Chamber's order, the amici and the accused will notify the American government either through the Office of the Prosecutor or directly whether they wish to ask additional questions or go into additional topics on their examination. I have a query from the American government this morning, saying that they have not heard from either the accused or the amici. It may ²⁹⁹⁷⁰ take several days to process such request and they are asking me to convey or just remind all the parties concerned that it will in fact take a few days and if there are requests coming, if they can be notified of such.

MR. KAY: We're aware of that. It's just, with the volume of work, it's been impossible to get so far ahead.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, with that in mind, perhaps you would concentrate on it. Thank you.

Very well. We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock testimony morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of

December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.