³³⁰⁹²

Tuesday, 19 October 2004

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, yes.

MR. KAY: Your Honour, good morning. The first witness this morning is Liana Kanelli, who is available at court.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

WITNESS: LIANA KANELLI Examined by Mr. Kay:

Q. Ms. Kanelli, you've been given headphones but I know you speak perfect English and you probably don't need them because you can hear me naturally.

A. Yeah, with the permission of the Court, I've been working for the television and the radio so many years, I wish I would avoid it, if necessary. With the permission of the Court, can I take them off?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. KAY:

Q. You are Liana Kanelli; is that correct?

A. I was baptised with the Garyfallia. If you want me to translate ³³⁰⁹³ it into English, it's Carnation Cinnamon, my name. But I'm called Liana Kanelli, and it's my public name, everybody knows me under that name in my country.

Q. Thank you. If we could just have a brief history of your background. Is it correct that you were a journalist?

A. I've been a journalist for 32 years. I'm 50 years old. I was elected as an independent, collaborating with the Communist Party, in the year 2000, and I was re-elected this year, March 2004. I'm an editor and publisher of a magazine called Nemesis since January 1997 -- 1998, I'm sorry.

Q. You are a deputy in the --

A. In the Greek parliament.

Q. -- in the Greek parliament. Any particular party or are you an independent?

A. I am an independent, collaborating with the Communist Party. It was a political decision I took after the war in Serbia.

Q. And when were you first elected to parliament?

A. 7th of April, the year 2000.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question and answer and take the interpretation into account. Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay, you are being asked to put a pause between question and answer.

And if you could speak a bit slower.

THE WITNESS: Yes. I was elected April 2000 as an independent running at the so-called Athens area in my country, and I was elected ³³⁰⁹⁴ parliamentarian deputy for the Communist party in Athens in the Greek parliament, 300 seats. And then I was re-elected this year, after a four-year term, with not premature elections, normal elections, April 2004, the same seat, same party.

MR. KAY:

Q. This is being translated, so it's not that I'm --

A. I will do my best to speak slower so that I can help the interpreters. I've been an interpreter myself. I know the job. It's a hard one.

Q. And I wait for the translation to finish into several languages before I ask the next question, so --

A. It's your time.

Q. Thank you. You're a member of the Special Standing Committee on Institutions and Transparency, and you're vice-chairman of that --

A. That's correct.

Q. -- committee. And you're a member of the Standing Committee on Defence and Foreign Affairs?

A. That's correct.

Q. You are now the publisher of your magazine Nemesis?

A. Yes.

Q. Under the rules of your parliament, journalists are not members of parliament; is that right? It's --

A. No. They can be members of parliament. They cannot be paid and work as journalists. They can write articles, they can express opinions, they can be owners of stock of different enterprises but not be ³³⁰⁹⁵ professional journalists. I can't work on television, I can't work on radio, and I can't work for anybody in a newspaper or in any media.

Q. In the past you have made several visits to the former Yugoslavia. We've no need to go into those details, but just as part of your background. Is that right?

A. Yes. I visited Yugoslavia, as we knew it as Yugoslavia, and then I visited the so-called today former Yugoslavia, and I visited the Serbia Montenegro as it is today.

If I may add something. My first visit to the former Yugoslavia was about 25 years ago, and I had a chance as a journalist to travel practically to every part of the country, from north to south, from east to west.

Q. As part of your background during the time of the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia, you as a journalist were concerned with that issue and wrote articles about the matter in relation to the role of your Greek government.

A. No citizen in the world could be indifferent about what was going in the Balkans. In my country, we have something like a very sarcastic but very proud joke when we speak about Greece. We say, "This is not only Greece, this is also the Balkans." So especially for Greek journalists, Greek politicians, Greek simple everyday people, whatever happened in our neighbourhood, in our borders, in Albania where half a million Greeks lived, in Bulgaria, in Romania, in the former Republic of Macedonia was of a great interest and concern. And I would add we were in agony following the demolition of a friendly country, that every Greek truck had to just ³³⁰⁹⁶ cross to go to the heart of Europe, bringing goods back and forth, and every civil aircraft of our state-owned, at that time, Olympic Airways had to pay a fee and cross the Yugoslav airspace. So it was of a great political, economical, historical, and human interest. And then I have to add that there were thousands of Greek families with girls and boys, students, in Yugoslav universities. Thousands of them. Some of them victims of the war and the depleted uranium bombs. We have already three cancer leukaemia deaths.

So it would be impossible for a -- for an honest journalist not to turn his or her attention to what was going on in a country like Yugoslavia.

Q. You had published several articles concerning the destruction of Yugoslavia, and that is before the period of the NATO bombing in March of 1999; is that right?

A. That's absolutely correct, sir. I practically predicted what was going to happen. So obviously, for the public opinion of my country, I turned out unwillingly to be an expertee, because six months before the bombings start and out of a fate's game, they began just one day before the Greek national holiday. That means everybody's at leave. They read newspapers, they watch television, they can be easily out in the streets demonstrating.

I published November 1998 a big article with lots of information I had collected, and the title was "Keep Hands Out of Serbia." And I predicted there that with the political collaboration of the United States, NATO forces, and the agreement of the 15 European member ³³⁰⁹⁷ governments, members of the European Union, one way or another, if Milosevic was still denying to sign the Rambouillet treaty, they would demolish the country. They will try to intimidate the population, destroy the infrastructure of the country, and then something that truly happened, because I forgot to mention that I'm a member of the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, I will go to the environment and other committees of the parliamentary assembly, and I will be asked to find money to restore a European country torn in pieces for a decade. It was the last stage.

With all the respect to your Honourable Court, I have witnessed in my whole life three wars, one genocide, one revolution. I've seen death with my own eyes. I've counted thousands, thousands of dead children in Rwanda. I have 350 pictures of dead children that I shoot myself. The pictures, thank God, not the children. I've been in Iraq. I've been in Iran.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Mr. Kay, this is not a general inquiry into the situation in Yugoslavia, it is a trial with specific charges.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And I would be grateful if you would bring the witness to evidence that is closer to the indictment.

MR. KAY: Having laid the foundations, I was now going to turn to a visit --

THE WITNESS: May I address the Court, please?

JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Just let -- the counsel will ask you the ³³⁰⁹⁸ questions.

MR. KAY:

Q. I'm turning to your visit now to Serbia in 1999. You've laid the foundations of your interest in the region, and now I want to deal with the specific issue of your visit to Serbia in 1999. Is it correct that you travelled through a -- by circuitous route into Serbia in 1999?

A. Yes. There was a group of journalist and one Euro parliamentarian who is now the ministry -- the minister of health in my country. His name is Nikitas Kaklamanis, and he was travelling along with the journalists to see everybody was going there so that we could witness with our own eyes what was happening, because mainly the information at the beginning of the bombing was coming through NATO pool reportages. So lots of Greek journalists wanted to be there and be present and have their own stuff transmitted back to Greece. So I crossed the border between Bulgaria and Serbia, and I got in the country.

JUDGE KWON: Madam Kanelli, if you could give me a date of your visit.

THE WITNESS: A date. It should have been at the end of April 1999. I'm mostly sure. There is -- in my passport there is the exact date, but it was after the Greek Easter, so it had to be about a month after the bombing began. It certainly should have been around the 24th. Something between the 20th and the 24th of April, 1999.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. KAY: ³³⁰⁹⁹

Q. The bombing, we know, started on the 23rd of March, 1999, so the campaign had started, and after it had been a few weeks or nearly a month in operation, was that when you decided to go with this group?

A. Yes. And there was a big turmoil in my country. People were out in the streets. There were every day demonstrations saying no to the war. So I had to be there to see the war.

Q. I was going to ask you about that before we got into this. There was concern in Greece about the political situation that was unfolding in Serbia; is that correct?

A. Yes. It was like the final scene of a ten-year play, a dramatic play. It's something that began in the very early 1990s. So it was the end of a decade, a bloody decade, for this country, and not only.

Q. Your route into Serbia from Bulgaria took you to a particular village; is that correct?

A. Yes. It took me to a village called Aleksinac, and I can tell you everything I saw there. And I hope that's why I'm here.

Q. We've been trying to find Aleksinac on the maps that have been produced in evidence so far. I don't know whether you're able to identify it for the Court on a general map of Serbia. Are you able to do that?

A. My dear Counsellor, you have my magazine you can present to the Court with all the photographs and the faces. I don't know if I'm in a position to give you the exact place of this village on the map, but I hope it's not -- it has not disappeared at all. There were still buildings standing when I was there. There was even a school standing there. Only dead pupils are not standing there. But I will try to help ³³¹⁰⁰ you, if I can. It's in the south of the country.

Q. If I was to pass a general map here --

A. Probably they've changed the name or something.

Q. See if you can point to the general area. If you can't, tell us.

MR. KAY: I'm producing Exhibit 326, tab 27, which is a map we've previously introduced.

THE WITNESS: If I could have one of the magazines to show you.

MR. KAY: It's from the Times Atlas. Don't put it on the ELMO, let the witness look at it first please.

Q. If you can find where it would lie roughly, if that helps you, we can then put it on the ELMO and --

A. No. This doesn't help me at all. But I wonder, Mr. Milosevic is here. He knows his country. He could show us where the village is. I hope he's not deprived of this right to show a village on a map. It's called Aleksinac.

I don't see it on the map now. But this is a -- I don't know. I'm not a military person. I don't know how to read maps.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, I suggest you proceed. I don't think anybody is making an issue of the location.

THE WITNESS: I hope nobody doubts because I can't find it on a map.

MR. KAY:

Q. Tell us, then, Aleksinac, what did you see when you arrived there?

A. I arrived there and it was silence apart from a woman's terrible cry in the so-called middle of the village where you could see houses ³³¹⁰¹ brought down, and there was a very big hole, obviously made by a bomb. And I saw 40, 45-years-old man digging with a shelf. We had to climb on the soil that was black and with a terrible smell, smell like -- like metal, like kerosene. And he was digging and he was silent, and then he put a pit like he was digging the soil out --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've hesitated before raising any objection to this witness's evidence, and of course don't wish to cut anything out if it's going to help the Chamber. It appears that the witness is going to be giving evidence about something that she will explain was consequential upon the NATO bombing in Serbia. If the Chamber feels that that is in some way helpful, I'm not going to raise any objection, but before we take time with this evidence and fill the record with it, it might be helpful to understand what its significance is.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Well, the accused has frequently asserted and put forward as his defence to this indictment that his state was acting in self-defence against aggressive foreign powers, including NATO, that the destruction of Yugoslavia was organised by foreign powers for their own ends, and they had the same ambitions towards Yugoslavia that they had toward Serbia in respect of Kosovo. And that has been something that he has asserted in his opening before this Court, frequently cross-examined upon, and so the relevance of the testimony, if it goes to this and is able to show this, that if institutions or buildings of a civilian nature were bombed by NATO and the foreign powers that constitute NATO, then that ³³¹⁰² indicates what he has been putting before this Court, that in fact the aggression was from outside his country and that he was faced, as the head of state, with a particular dilemma and issue for the safety and security of his country.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay. Thank you. It's relevant to the accused's case. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: So --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a map on which you can see Aleksinac. Aleksinac is a small mining town in southern Serbia. This map only covers the region up to Kragujevac. So --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- nobody can find it on this map.

JUDGE ROBINSON: At the end of the examination-in-chief, I'll give you an opportunity to explain that through the witness.

MR. KAY:

Q. Yes, Ms. Kanelli. Aleksinac, then, that you visited, you were able to see with your own eyes had been the subject of a bombing by a NATO aircraft; is that right?

A. Yeah. This is what NATO, most of the times, called collateral damages.

Q. If I can just stop you there.

A. You do it the same way the guy that was digging the soil. Put a piece of meat in front of my feet, and when I ask, "What is this?" he ³³¹⁰³ answered me, and a translator tried to translate, "Most probably the piece of a man's shoulder."

Q. Was the man a civilian?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Did you see buildings that had been destroyed in Aleksinac?

A. Yes. I went into the bedroom of a 13-year-old girl that was -- she was killed while studying physics. And I asked the people there if I had the permission to collect one of the child's books and one piece of the small bedroom, not as proof, as a human memory of what collateral damage can be, because they didn't see the enemy. They were sleeping, and the bombs just slipped out of the fingers of the peace saviours.

Q. Are you able to describe what sort of buildings, so far as you could see, had been the subject of bomb damage? Are you able to describe --

A. In Aleksinac there were only houses, nothing else. It's a small town. There was nothing important. It was one little town forgotten in the middle of nowhere, somewhere in Europe, somewhere in Southern Serbia. It's an accident that no one could ever explain. And then just around Aleksinac, the only thing you could see is just tractors and fields and houses with bricks, not even painted. It's a poor area, nothing else.

My next experience was a factory, a factory near Belgrade.

Q. If I can -- I want to stay on Aleksinac. Please don't move off of --

A. Yes, yes, yes. ³³¹⁰⁴

Q. It's important that all you have to say that is relevant to the matter is before the Court.

Did you see any military installations in Aleksinac?

A. Not even one. There was a big wonder in all the journalists, and we've been talking about that. They were bombing in Yugoslavia, in Serbia, and I crossed the border from Greece to Bulgaria and then from Bulgaria entering Yugoslavia. Till I reached Belgrade, the only military so-called, quote - and quote me, please, because it was not military - force I had seen with my own eyes, were two or three very old, semi-destroyed police cars, very old ones, with very old in age policemen with long hair, most probably recruited out of, you know, pension time, that they had come back for the reasons of security, that they stopped us twice because there was a bombing in a few kilometres, and they said, "You have to wait here and then you can proceed." And this was the only -- I was wondering, where are soldiers? Why aren't they doing anything? I mean, I thought it was very normal to expect to see military installations or soldiers coming in and out.

Q. Can I just stop you there.

A. You -- yes.

Q. If you could describe, if you're able to, the numbers of buildings in Aleksinac that had been the subject of bomb damage.

A. There was a compound of three storey, what we call workers' houses, apartment houses. And if I could count and bring up the memory, the three-quarters of this compound, about, let's say, seven or eight houses of a three-storey building in three entrances. So that means out ³³¹⁰⁵ of nine apartments, seven were destroyed and the other two -- you know, they were just standing there, shadowy walls.

The bombs got in the middle of the building. There were two bombs in Aleksinac, so ... That's what the people said. But you could see the holes of the bombs so you couldn't deny that it should have been two bombs; one in the so-called main plaza, how you say it in English, main place of the village, and these buildings, just about 500, 600 metres from the first one.

Q. You published in your magazine Nemesis an article about this visit which contains photographs taken at the time of your visit; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. This was a magazine that you gave me last night; is that right?

A. Yes.

MR. KAY: Your Honour, I wonder if this could be put onto the ELMO so the Court can see the photographs.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: They're in colour and we haven't been able to reproduce them.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay, does it have maps?

MR. KAY: No.

JUDGE KWON: We'd still like to get the maps. Where is Aleksinac? Is it near Kosovo or is it in Kosovo?

MR. KAY: No, it's in Serbia.

JUDGE KWON: The southern part of Serbia. During the adjournment if you are able to get the map. ³³¹⁰⁶

MR. KAY: We were doing a Google search before we came in --

JUDGE KWON: Or the Prosecution can, and offer this map to which indicates the location.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic himself could be helpful in that regard.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is only a piece of the map. There is no Aleksinac on this piece of the map. If you give me a map of Serbia I will mark Aleksinac for you, but on this map there is only a part of Serbia, the part that does not include Aleksinac. Here you can see Belgrade and the part north of Belgrade, a small piece south of Belgrade, whereas Aleksinac is further south.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll try to get the appropriate map.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. KAY: That map was supplied in good faith to try and help the witness, and it obviously hasn't succeeded in many respects.

Q. If we look at that photograph which is on the ELMO, could you tell us -- well, we see you, actually, in the left-hand side of the photo. That's an insert, isn't it?

A. Yeah. You have to prove you've been there. There are many photographs --

Q. There won't be a dispute whether you were there or not, Ms. Kanelli.

A. No. I'm just being sarcastic, sir, as all the journalists usually do when they are in war fields.

Q. The building which is the main subject of that photograph, can you ³³¹⁰⁷ tell us what that building was?

A. It's one of the buildings with, you know, people inside. I don't know. It wasn't a state building. It was a residential area. And if you want me, please, because I would like to defend my language. The letters you see, Honourable Judges, at the end of this picture, the first word is "War Now Starts." "The War Now Starts."

Q. If you could turn over the next pages of the magazine where there are some more photographs of Aleksinac, moving it that way so we can see the first page, please.

A. So you see, it's -- in the above photograph, it's written in Greek "Aleksinac" and the word over, which is called "apostoli," means "mission." It means that somebody was sent there to see. You see what I tell you? This is, you know, houses, houses of everyday people in Aleksinac. There aren't any military barracks or something. And around the area there is nothing that could be missed as a military target and not a civilian target.

Q. Could we have a look at the other photographs on that page and you pass any observations that you wish to make. Is that the same block of flats --

A. Yes.

Q. -- background that we've seen the larger picture of?

A. Yes.

Q. And are those the surrounding houses near this square that you describe?

A. Permit me to try to explain something that comes out of horrible ³³¹⁰⁸ experience when you have been in wars. If you watch the buildings and the way they are destroyed, you cannot by any means imagine that there was a bomb explosion on the ground or under the buildings, and you cannot end up to the judgement that there was a missile or something ground-to-ground that hit these buildings. It's obvious when you get inside the buildings, inside the ruins, which was quite -- quite dangerous because it had happened just the night before, so there was still debris coming down, and it was still, believe me, hot, hot. You could breathe the heat. And it's obvious that it's something that came from the sky.

Q. Can we look now at the photograph on the --

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay. Mr. Kay, that wasn't an answer to your question. I would be greatly assisted by an answer to the question you actually asked, which is to identify these buildings for us, because that really goes to the essence of the point I think you're trying to make.

MR. KAY: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, could you please repeat the question or rephrase it? I'm sorry if I didn't understand.

MR. KAY:

Q. The photographs on this section of the page, we see that residential block of flats --

A. Yes.

Q. -- you previously described, which was in the main photograph. Are these buildings here in that area of the square that you describe, the plats?

A. It's different angles of the same buildings. ³³¹⁰⁹

Q. Yes?

A. Different angles. From down, from right, from left, closer or a little bit more bigger distance.

Q. Can we lift up the page a bit?

A. I'm not a professional --

JUDGE BONOMY: No, but in the photograph, just below your finger, there are two buildings. It's just below the finger in the photograph.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: There are two buildings. There is a large block of flats. Is that the one on the left?

THE WITNESS: This is the -- yes. Here if I show you. You mean this photograph?

JUDGE BONOMY: No, the --

THE WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: That photograph.

THE WITNESS: That is the buildings where the apartments were.

JUDGE BONOMY: That's a residential --

THE WITNESS: Residential apartment. And these are also houses, and the distance is very small. You cannot see that in the photograph. And here is the so-called central place of the village.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

MR. KAY:

Q. We use the word "square."

A. Square.

Q. I know you're familiar with it. ³³¹¹⁰

A. I was trying to find it. I found it in Italian and French but not in English. Thank you.

Q. The other group of photographs, if you could just move the magic wand onto each of those other photographs.

MR. KAY: Can you lift up the page a little bit more, please, Usher. Thank you. Just there.

Q. Are those photographs of the residential buildings around the square?

A. Yeah. You know -- yes. The very -- in this picture -- in this picture here. In this picture.

Q. Yes.

A. Which is a closer view of the smaller buildings you could see in front of the residential apartment houses here. I asked, What do they keep in there? And it was full of agricultural tools, tractors, things you use for the horses. How you call them? When you ride a house.

Q. Saddles.

A. Saddles, yeah, saddles. Full of saddles, you know.

Q. Yes.

A. Things you dig in. Normal agricultural small storehouses.

Q. Were there any military around here taking an interest?

A. I wish I could have seen one. There was only the mayor of Aleksinac, three women, and the rest of the village was in the cemetery for the funerals.

Q. On the left-hand side of the photos we have on the monitor --

A. Yes. ³³¹¹¹

Q. -- is that a residential building as well? It's got the light in a very intense place, so --

A. Yes.

Q. Stop there. That's residential as well?

A. Yeah. I got in this building. I saw bedrooms, kitchens, destroyed beds, books, broken plates, forks, clothes, dolls, little children toys.

Q. So no industrial installation where this fell, no military installation?

A. Not at all.

Q. The other photographs --

MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I just help by the way, because I think we may be able to solve the problem that's been troubling the witness and Mr. Kay. If you go to Exhibit 83 and you look at the first sheet, which is a map you wouldn't expect to find a place marked in detail, the very first map, second page as it were, it hasn't even got a number on it -- and the accused will be able to confirm if this is the right place -- but there is, where my finger is pointing there, there is in fact an Aleksinac there. Perhaps the accused would be good enough to look at it and then he can confirm that it's the right place.

MR. KAY: Perhaps the witness could see that page of the atlas, Mr. Nice, and -- there's a post-it, I notice. Leave the post-it on, it might help as a reference point.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And then would you pass it to the accused. ³³¹¹²

THE WITNESS: Yes. Yeah, I can see that. And considering my route from the point I crossed the border, we were heading north. So it's --

JUDGE KWON: Perhaps you could put it on the ELMO and indicate with the magic wand.

THE WITNESS: And I think it's -- Mr. Nice was kind enough to --

MR. KAY: Can we go in closer rather than further away, please.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Can we go in closer? We can't seem to --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think we see it.

MR. KAY: Can we go in closer just so we can see the spelling on the --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's now visible. Yes.

MR. KAY: Thank you. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Pass it to the accused.

MR. KAY: I'm grateful for that exhibit.

Q. The other photographs on the right-hand side of the page, do they have any relevance to this issue concerning Aleksinac?

A. No. It's a thermoelectrical -- small thermoelectrical factory just outside Belgrade.

Q. And the relevance of those pictures taken at that time?

A. There was a very big bomb two days after I arrived in Belgrade, and we wanted to go there, all the journalists. Some of us went there. I feel I was very lucky, being escorted by a Euro parliamentarian who by profession was a doctor. And I remember Mr. Kaklamanis telling me that we ³³¹¹³ cannot stay more than a few minutes around the area from what I can smell and see. It's a quite dangerous place to breathe. So we didn't spend much time there. I just took some pictures, picked up some information, and then I had to protect myself and leave the area. And I --

Q. Thank you. From Aleksinac, did you then travel to Belgrade?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you arrive in Belgrade that same day that you'd crossed the border?

A. Yes.

Q. You stayed in Belgrade for how long?

A. A few days. Five or six, I think.

Q. During that visit, did you experience any bombing of Belgrade yourself?

A. Every night I heard the sirens and the sound of bombing. Not very close to the area where I was, otherwise I would feel it, I would know it. Something you would call the outskirts of Belgrade. I've seen it coming down. I've seen it coming down, the bombs. I've seen them coming down. I've seen the light. I've seen the tails. You can't miss a bomb in a dark sky.

Q. Did you visit a refugee area near Belgrade?

A. Yeah. There was so many journalists and people coming and going, and then there was a poor area. I don't remember its name. If I read everything I wrote back at this time I would be more accurate and precise. I had just two days to prepare myself for this hearing, and it's an experience of millions of words, not of thousands of words and ³³¹¹⁴ information.

And then I met people inside Belgrade. Every day and every night I was going around. I met refugees from the previous wars, Serbs. They were, you know, sure that this is the end. They knew. The bitter end of any war. I met Gypsies that were coming and going from Belgrade to Vojvodina, from Vojvodina to the south of the country. They were trying to make a living. I met enemies of Mr. Milosevic, political opponents. Nobody wanted to leave Belgrade. Nobody wanted to fly away. Everybody was inviting us every night to get out in the bridges, in the public areas, to share the silent resistance of despising the bombs, like Sisyphus did with the curse of God.

Q. During your visit to Belgrade, did you have an interview with Mr. Milosevic?

A. I wish I had the honour and the privilege of an interview of a leader that his country's at war. The only chance given to us -- and when I say "us," I mean other journalists of other nationalities who were at the same time with me in Belgrade, like I suppose quite -- hundreds of them. So there was a small group formated, and we were waiting to meet him. We met him for ten minutes. I didn't even have my photograph camera with me because it was a short notice that we could meet him around 8.00, 8.30 that night, and it was quite dangerous.

One official car with just two policemen escorted us to a building. It was quite an empty building. I couldn't say it was an official big building or something like that. It was quite dark.

Q. If I can just cut you short on those sorts of details because I ³³¹¹⁵ want to ask you about an issue you questioned him about. Did you specifically ask him about Rambouillet?

A. Yes. We had altogether about 20, 25 minutes for four or five journalists there. And he was under the pressure of running in a wartime and meeting people. So I had the chance of just saying few words, and I asked about Rambouillet and if this was the end of the so-called state of Yugoslavia. I asked him.

Q. And did he describe anything about Rambouillet at all to you?

A. I wish he could answer himself this question the way he did, and I wish he could ask me this question, being the lawyer of himself, but I don't think he needs me to give an answer. He has given his answer. I have heard it with my own ears.

Q. Did he say anything to you?

A. What is Rambouillet? Is it a Dayton? No, it's not Dayton. Agreement. It's the end whether I signed it or not. They have pre-decided to do that. More or less. I'm not quoting him. I don't dare quote him. You have, Mr. Counsellor, to consider the consequences under which three or four journalists with bombs coming around and over our heads, night, in Belgrade, with NATO aggression at its most, to meet the leader of a country that has to give big and serious answers to journalists about what was going on in his country. If I were in his place, I would throw us out, because we were there and we knew who the enemy was, who was the hunting and who was the hunted. Please don't quote me. I wouldn't take this responsibility, because he's here - thank God he's alive - he can give his own answers to ³³¹¹⁶ history. You don't need me to tell you that if he agreed to everything he was asked, then most probably he wouldn't be here in this court. He would be with the winners and not with the losers, and nobody would ever need a political court like this.

Q. Could you --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's -- that comment is entirely out of order. Concentrate on the evidence.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

MR. KAY:

Q. Could you describe the type of bombing damage you --

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay, before you move on to that, have you actually got an answer to the last question you asked? Because I'm totally confused by it. And if you want a clear answer that I will understand, I think you have to ask the question again.

MR. KAY: It's how far I go in leading in relation to a quote and --

THE WITNESS: Please rephrase the question, if you can.

MR. KAY:

Q. Did you ask --

JUDGE BONOMY: The question could not have been simpler, and it was whether at the interview Mr. Milosevic said anything to you about Rambouillet, and it would be helpful to me to know if he did.

THE WITNESS: No, it's a totally wrong question, because you said at the end of an interview. There wasn't an interview. There was a chat. If I had the chance of an interview, I would have printed the interview. ^{33117 BLANK PAGE 33118} It was a chat of 20 minutes for four journalists. And I think one of them, an American guy, had a picture. So it wasn't an interview, Your Honour. And so I cannot give you a tape of what it was talked of this ten minutes. And bear in mind it was the first time in my life I was meeting Milosevic.

JUDGE BONOMY: The question that was posed to you was whether in the context of your meeting with Mr. Milosevic or the time you were in his presence he said anything to you about Rambouillet.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. I asked, Is Rambouillet the cause of everything? Something like that. You know what I mean. And he said, Yes, of course. What else?

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

MR. KAY:

Q. Did he say anything about being tricked by the diplomats and the talks that had taken place?

A. Yeah. He used the word "trap." But for the country, not for himself.

Q. In relation to Belgrade, are you able to describe the kind of bombing damage that you saw in that period? Any buildings that stick out in your mind that had been affected by --

A. I saw lots of state buildings, carefully picked up. You know, I've been in Belgrade so I've seen Belgrade before the bombing. So like if you go in the centre of London or in the centre of Paris or in the centre of Athens that you know, and one building here, one building three blocks away, destroyed in a very peculiar way. Some of the buildings, ³³¹¹⁹ apart from the smoke that they had in the facade of the buildings, they were obviously totally destroyed inside. It's like you save the face of a building, and if you enter the broken door it's like everything is demolished in the building. It's like the bombing is coming from up and goes straight down, demolishes all the core of the building but some of the facade is saved.

I could not get into many of them because we were told it is very, very dangerous to even get near the building because it could collapse at any moment.

Q. If I can just stop you there. What I'm interested in is the types of buildings, if you're able to. You've mentioned state buildings there, but any other buildings that you're able to describe --

A. When I say --

Q. -- that you're able to remember?

A. When I say "state buildings," it was the Ministry of Justice that I saw destroyed. It was one building that holds financial, economic services. I don't know, like taxpayers' building or something like that. And then there was another building that was used for -- how you say that in English? I need to -- just give me few seconds. A building for social workers. Social workers. The department of health and social care. We say that in Greek, if I'm not translating in a very bad way. I'm sorry. So all so-called public, civilian buildings.

And then, if this is of any help to your Court, we start hearing rumours - we, the journalists being there - that sooner or later they're going to hit the television building. And I have to explain to you a very ³³¹²⁰ personal and very political special interest that we Greeks and journalists had for this building, because the national company, telephone company of Greece, which is called O-T-E, OTE in Greek, had invested 20 per cent on the public telephony and services of Yugoslavia. So back in Greece, when telephone buildings were hit by bombs and there was information that they are destroying the telecommunications and the television services in Serbia, Greeks were saying that we send NATO Greek planes - thank God there weren't any Greek pilots for that - to bomb our own investments. There was a serious political talk in Greece about how the hell we could have agreed, as Europeans, to the bombing of our own investments in the heart of Europe.

And then when I was back in Athens, I found out that everybody left the building, all the foreign journalists, but the Serbs that were killed in there by a pre-noticed bombing.

Q. Any other buildings in that -- that category that you would care to describe that you were able to see?

A. I saw a bridge. I saw it from a distance. I didn't want to go closer. I hate broken bridges.

Q. That's all I want to ask you now about your visit. In relation to the events in Kosovo, did you study or investigate issues concerning the KLA?

A. Mr. Counsellor, you know who I am. I hope everybody in this Court knows who I am. I have seen the KLA people in my own country. I fought with them on television debates. I've seen them even in Greece. I know them. The president of the Greek republic, just yesterday, in the capital ³³¹²¹ of Albania was talking about stop demanding parts of Greece, of Northern Greece. Just yesterday this happened. It's an experience we have with so-called then, at the beginning, liberators.

Before that, I have published, I have published an official report, and it's all in the magazines that I present to the Court, an official report, never denied, never denied by any official or unofficial source, a report of the Greek -- of the German defence department about the KLA that has a date of one and a half year before the Kosovo eruption. And they're talking about a Mafia of drug dealers, of traffickers, that they have political ambition for a Greater Albania, and that this Greater Albania should be created by Kosovo, Tsamouria. That means Epeiros in Greece and big cities like Yaneuna and Preveza. I have seen maps printed out of this Greater Albania, and we've got political turmoil in Greece for more than 15 years about the demands to resist in creating a Greater Albania. And we know we are a peaceful country.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli, whose idea was this concept of a Greater Albania?

THE WITNESS: Of a Greater Albania.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Just on the evidence you've given. It's not clear to me. Are you saying it's the KLA that propounded this idea?

THE WITNESS: The KLA is a tool, Your Honour, to make this Greater Albania. Greater Albania is a very, very old plan. I have also published "The Nazi Plan of 1939." It's an official plan. It was found by one of my colleagues in the archives of the Nazis, officially, and it is a plan saying that we have to cut the Balkans in smaller, depending nations, and ³³¹²² it's absolutely described as it happened.

The last part that's left to be cut is Vojvodina. And we had -- I don't need any proof. In the parliamentary assembly, in -- just in all the European institutions just about a month ago we were talking about some starting of civil turmoil in Vojvodina. And thanks to Hungary and some other countries that they said, "Enough. We will not have committees. We will not go there. We will not put oil in this fire again."

And it's a plan I've seen. I'm 50 years old. I wasn't born in 1939. I went to the university -- when I say, Your Honour --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Kay.

THE WITNESS: Let me finish, please, just my phrase.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard enough.

THE WITNESS: Just my phrase, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I have heard enough. Mr. Kay, continue.

MR. KAY:

Q. I think, Ms. Kanelli, you have given the picture concerning Albania. You've got to remember we've heard other in evidence this court as well.

That in fact concludes the questions that I need to ask you. You will be asked some more in a moment, so please wait there.

A. Thank you, and permit me to add, with your permission, one word. There is no KLA any more. We call it UCK. They changed the last part and it's called Tsamouriana. They're fighting for Tsamouria. So how -- I hope I will not find myself in another court talking about another war ³³¹²³ when I'm 70.

JUDGE KWON: And you referred to a report from -- of German defence department?

THE WITNESS: Department.

JUDGE KWON: You have it or you handed it over to the counsel?

THE WITNESS: It is published, and if I go back, I can have it in German. I can have the full report. Don't ask me where I found it. As a journalist, I will not be able to answer the question.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: It's an official report.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if you have questions of this witness, this is your opportunity to ask them.

Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Kanelli -- [In English] Earphone. Were you asked the questions agreed?

A. Can you repeat the question?

Q. Were you asked the questions agreed?

JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't hear the --

THE WITNESS: He asked me if I was asked the questions agreed, and I think I was asked a small proportion of these questions. I could have been asked more, especially for the documents I have. Because if you have documents about Nazi plans and pre-scheduled destruction of a country, you can stay on that more than the photos of Aleksinac. I've proven that there had been NATO bombing. I don't need to prove it in this court. But ³³¹²⁴ this is --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Ms. Kanelli. Mr. Milosevic, do you have any questions to put to the witness? If you believe that there are gaps in the examination-in-chief, this is your opportunity to fill them out.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have just asked the witness whether she was asked the things that were agreed on in preparations for her testimony, and as we can see, she was not. So there is no need for any commentary. I'm not entering into the merit of things, and I do not wish to put any questions until my right to represent myself is restored to me. This is a pure and simple farce.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Kay -- Mr. Nice, rather.

Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

Q. Is it Miss or Mrs. Kanelli that you'd like to be known by?

A. Miss. Could you please speak a little bit closer to your microphone because I'm not listening to you.

Q. It's entirely a matter for you whether -- can you hear me better now?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. You can always use the headphones, if you like, because they amplify the voice even when it's in the same language. The date of your visit to Aleksinac, so far as you can best remember?

A. Specific date? ³³¹²⁵

Q. The best. The best you can get.

A. End of April. I can't give you a specific date, and I can give you a very good excuse for that, and I excuse myself. I had a civil passport when I travelled to Serbia. By the -- from the year 2000 I have a diplomatic passport, according to the Greek law. So I had to give back my civil passport, and the new one doesn't have the dates that I get in and out of the countries. So it's -- my notes, if I go back to my notes, if I go back to all the details five years ago, I might find the exact day. It could even be in the magazine. If I could read the magazine, I could just -- I never put dates with that.

Q. Perhaps we could just have the magazine over the short adjournment, which is likely to start at half past --

A. Yes, but it will not give you a very certain day, like the 24th, the 25th, or the 26th.

Q. Perhaps we could look at it in any event and maybe we'll have somebody who can read the Greek for us.

A. NATO has the report of all the bombings. NATO can give the exact date of bombing Aleksinac better than I can do and more guaranteed.

Q. We'll probably find we'll get on better if you let me ask some questions because we'll get there more quickly.

A. And if I am allowed to answer the questions the way I want to.

Q. You thought that the incident had happened shortly before your visit?

A. Just the night before or just 36 hours before, or something like. I'm experienced enough to smell it. It couldn't be something that ³³¹²⁶ happened, let's say, three or four days ago because you can't feel the heat. I mean, even if you touch -- if you touch the stones and they're hot, then you know that it's a recent fact.

Q. So could the incident that -- or could your -- could your visit have been as early in April as, say, the 6th or the 7th or the 8th of April?

A. I don't remember. I -- because I have a very peculiar way of counting the issues of my magazine. I publish the magazine at the end of the month that covers the previous month. So if the magazine -- I could see the date now. If the magazine is April issue, it's the beginning of April. If it's May issue, it's the end of April, because this is a printing procedure. Could you please give me the magazine so that I can see if it's an April issue or a May issue. Because to print a magazine in Greece for May, that means you have to print it about 15 days before. I will give you -- so it's an April issue. That means that was on the stores at the beginning of May, at the end of April. Sorry, something I put here. And that means this happened in April, most probably before or after Easter, I don't remember, because it was Eastertime, and I don't remember if I went before or after.

Q. When you were in Aleksinac, did you yourself see the intended target of the NATO bombing?

A. I saw the result.

Q. No.

A. On the target.

Q. You saw the result, but did you actually see the military target ³³¹²⁷ which was the intended target?

A. No. I didn't see any military target.

Q. Did you make any inquiries to discover what the intended target was or may have been?

A. Look, if you mean that from my mobile phone in Aleksinac I could contact Aviano in Italy, the NATO centre, and ask them if they had a military base around Aleksinac, no, I didn't do this kind of inquiry. I went with my colleagues in a ten -- let's say ten-kilometre perimeter of Aleksinac, trying to see with my own eyes if there was something like a tower, like barracks, like big streets that could be used by armoured cars, air field or something like that that I could consider as a civilian that could be a so-called military target. The only thing I saw was a few cows around.

Q. In your inquiry and in your inspection of the area, did you find a military barracks there?

A. No.

Q. Have you, in light of the evidence that you knew you were going to give, have you made any inquiries of reports about Aleksinac that might have been able to explain more fully to you and us through you to the Court how this awful incident happened? Have you made any further inquiries, madam?

A. Mr. Nice, you're a prosecutor. You talk about inquiries. I am a journalist. I'm not inquiring. I'm just reporting. I just go, ask questions, and see. I'm not prosecuting anybody. Politically I can prosecute NATO. I can prosecute anybody. But if I am in the middle of a ³³¹²⁸ disaster, with dead girls and boys, mothers crying, and then I go back to the hotel and I listen to the official NATO statement about, "We're sorry for the collateral damages," I have an explanation enough about collateral damages, and I have experience enough, Mr. Nice, to know that if you want to humiliate and break the morale of any population, you target civilians, you create panic, you create a situation where nobody will support the official state because they're running for their lives.

MR. NICE: This is probably no longer responsive to the question. I don't want to cut the witness off for fear that she will be deprived the opportunity of something that may help the Chamber.

Q. But madam, will you be good enough now, please, to have a look with us at the evidence that's already been provided to this Court about Aleksinac so that we can see if in fact you're able to comment on what we already know about.

It's Exhibit 206, is it?

A. You want me to comment on Aleksinac?

Q. Exhibit 206. We will put the relevant pages of it on the overhead projector. It's the report into NATO by Human Rights Watch, and it starts at page 31.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you advise us of this?

MR. NICE: I didn't know until right now that it was coming up, because -- well, it doesn't matter why, but I didn't.

Q. If you'd like to look, please, at this document, at page 31. This is a document that's been before the Court. And I want us to have the full picture so far as the material is available. ³³¹²⁹

A. Yes.

Q. This says that the incident happened on -- or the first incident, for there were actually two incidents at Aleksinac, and it says it happened on April the 5th. Now, it would appear this is likely to be the incident that you were referring to --

A. Yes, yes, most probably.

Q. And it then says that in a 9.35 to 9.40 a.m. attack on Aleksinac --

A. Yes.

Q. -- "Deligrad" military barracks in south-eastern Serbia, ten civilians are killed and another 30 are wounded. It then gives the name of those immediately killed, and without disrespect to them, I needn't --

A. I see only a picture. I don't see any text now. I just see the picture.

Q. No. It wasn't -- wrong page. Page 31, please.

A. I'm just watching a picture.

Q. We'll come to the picture --

A. With a worse photograph than mine.

Q. Page 31, please.

A. Yes.

Q. Right. There is it is. And it's the -- no, further up, please.

A. I can see that.

Q. It's the wrong page. Can I have it back, please? It's my mistake for not having made the position clearer for the usher. It's not his fault. ³³¹³⁰ So here we have it now. April the 5th, 9.35 to 9.40 --

A. Yes.

Q. -- attack on Aleksinac "Deligrad" barracks in south-eastern Serbia. Ten civilians killed, another 30 wounded. And the killed are named. Two civilians subsequently die from injuries, they're named. A weapon or weapons fall about 600 metres from the barracks. Damage is reported in Dusan --

A. Yeah, I can read that. But you want me to comment on somebody else's document? What kind of document is this? Is this Human Rights Watch document or NATO document?

Q. I think I've explained to you --

A. No, I didn't get you.

Q. This is the Human Rights Watch report.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, if you would be good enough to go through it with me, please. A weapon or weapons falls about 600 metres from the barracks. Damage is reported --

A. Yes.

Q. Damage is reported in Dusan Trivunca street, houses 56 to 62, between the Angrokolonijal commercial enterprise and the EMPA enterprise, and at another street, Vuka Karadzica street, where four buildings were destroyed --

A. I don't want to comment on that. It's their report.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I can't --

A. It's information you have. It's information I didn't have. I ³³¹³¹ didn't study. You just see me a part of a page of a big report.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli, just listen to the question?

THE WITNESS: There is no a question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: He hasn't finished.

THE WITNESS: He's just reading the text, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just let him finish.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That is often the procedure here: Counsel will read the text and at the end of it he will ask you a question.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. I thought time was precious.

MR. NICE:

Q. I'm going to go on, Ms. Kanelli, just to see what the information before the Court is already. Then I'll ask you a question. "Damage was caused on the Vojska Jugoslavije and Kneza Milosa streets. Windowpanes on the buildings in the centre of Aleksinac were shattered, tiles were blown off several buildings near where the missiles fell. Yugoslav authorities also report two explosions inside the Deligrad barracks and a third 25 metres from the barracks fence. "On April 6, Tanjug reported that 16 private houses and more than 400 apartments, including three buildings with 80 apartments, were damaged or destroyed. Civilian defence headquarters commander Zoran Babovic said seven bombs fell in the centre of the town. One bomb also fell near the Belgrade-Nis highway, he said. He reported 20 injured civilians, including 13 in hospitals in Nis and Aleksinac." Now, I've taken you to that document that you haven't read before. ³³¹³² Does it appear that this is a description of the same events that you saw a day or so later?

A. You put me in the difficult position of comparing what I saw with things that other people saw. But I will answer you straight. I didn't see 400 apartments, as Tanjug says, destroyed. And I didn't see any military barracks in the area.

So if the building I photographed as destroyed was used for military barracks, permit me to say it's beyond my estimation, my logical estimation. I saw apartment buildings. Who was staying in the buildings, I told you what I saw when I got in. So if they know something about military barracks, they have more access to more sources than I do. I trust only my eyes.

Q. And it goes on to say --

A. And Human Rights Watch --

Q. Yes.

A. -- I've read other reports of other areas of the world. So permit me, because it's called human rights and because it's called Human Rights Watch doesn't mean what is always the human rights all over the world. I am very, very, very intimidated about accepting any NGOs in the world work on anything that's called humanitarian, because I've seen them go to humanitarian catastrophes and then under these catastrophes there's always oil or something else or another political or financial interest.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you may want to take the break to consider --

MR. NICE: Yes. I have very little more for this witness but I do ³³¹³³ want to ensure that the entire Aleksinac material is before you so you can have it as a piece.

JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question was a simple one and perhaps we can return to it when we come back.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'll do my best.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli, we'll take a break now --

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: -- for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, yes.

MR. NICE:

Q. Ms. Kanelli, the last question that I asked you before the break was whether the description that Human Rights Watch report gives of events, does that description appear to be of the same events that you saw a day or so later?

A. Yes. It must be exactly the same events with different estimations from what I saw to the Tanjug and the Human Rights Watch. I had a call to Athens, and I ask my secretary to find out the exact date, and it was Easter, the week before the Greek Easter, so it's the beginning of April, so it has to be the 5th instead of something after the 15th of April. They've got documents in my office so I can conclude to the time.

Q. Were you aware, Ms. Kanelli, that NATO put out press releases on the immediate following days that Aleksinac was the home of the 203rd ³³¹³⁴ Mixed Artillery Brigade and that it was possible one of their weapons had fallen short of its target?

A. No, I'm not aware at all.

Q. Just then to go back then, please, if we --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is common knowledge in Serbia, and especially in Aleksinac, that it was the centre of town that was targeted. Apartment buildings in the centre of town and civilians were hurt. You have that in the book on NATO crimes that I provided to you. And this is not the first time that Mr. Nice in his function as defender of NATO crimes is trying to explain something entirely different. Every citizen of Serbia knows that it was the centre of Aleksinac and the apartment buildings in Aleksinac that were targeted.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you will have an opportunity, after re-examination, to put any questions to this witness.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, of course I don't generally rise to or respond to groundless allegations of the accused, but there may come a time when it's necessary to do so and now is one of them. The suggestion that I have any interest in defending, representing, or speaking for NATO is groundless. I'm here for an entirely different function, and those remarks of the accused are without any foundation.

Q. Ms. Kanelli, could you please now look --

A. I'm looking at the page I have in front of me. ³³¹³⁵

Q. Yes.

A. And I am astonished.

Q. Could you now please --

A. For something that I think could be useful for you, if you give me the permission to answer.

The last three lines of the page I see, it's General Henry Shelton described the innocent as the first civilian deaths. So I didn't know, because I was there, so I came back, so I didn't follow any NATO announcements because I was moving, coming and moving. And then if you go back and you try to write, you don't follow everything that NATO says. So now in this court I found out that I had the totally unholy privilege of being a witness to the first civilian deaths in Yugoslavia as far as NATO is concerned.

Q. Can we just, to take things in an orderly way --

A. Yes.

Q. -- look at that paragraph as a whole.

A. Yes.

Q. It reads: "NATO expressed regret for the loss of life and called the incident an 'incident [sic] of war.' Commenting on the incident, Air Commodore David Wilby said: 'It is possible that one of our weapons fell short of the target. Despite our meticulous and careful pre-attack planning, the law of statistics will, at some stage, go against us and we will be exposed to technical defect.' NATO further says that the intended target was a military barracks and artillery unit nearby. Testifying before Congress on April 14, 1999, General Henry Shelton described this ³³¹³⁶ incident, which the United States labels the 'first' incident of civilian deaths," in quotations as you've reminded us: "'When I was in Aviano last week, we had just had what was at that point the first incident, I think, of a bomb missing the intended target. Actually, three bombs went in, two hit dead centre, one fell a little bit short.'"

And then if we just go over the page, Usher, if you would be so good.

"Human Rights Watch visited the site on August 11, inspected the damage, and took eyewitness testimony. The Yugoslav government provides forensic detail of the incident in its 'White Book.' Human Rights Watch also received photo documentation of the deaths from the Ministry of Health."

And I'm told by Ms. Dicklich that I misread from the first line when I read the word as "accident" as opposed to "incident" or -- yes. I apologise.

Having read that passage, Ms. Kanelli, you already made it clear that you were not aware at the time that this was said to be the first incident of civilian deaths.

A. Being aware or not is something as an answer given to what I saw. If you ask me here to judge NATO information or alleged military information, I'm not in a position to answer that. NATO has its sources, and I had my own eyes.

So I'm sorry, Mr. Nice. I can't give you an answer if NATO is right or wrong. What I can tell you is that both NATO and I saw civilian targets hitted, and everybody agrees that there were dead normal, everyday ³³¹³⁷ people who were not soldiers of any kind. I'm sorry I didn't see any barracks. I didn't see. It's not because I didn't want to see, it's just that I didn't see. And please, I am a politician. You have to respect my view. I don't trust NATO information. I think they are biased and targeted to its own interests.

Q. Now, this is, of course --

JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you go on, it may be you have actually something more positive to say, because did I not understand you earlier as indicating that there were two bomb craters?

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I saw two. One in the houses and one in the middle of the so-called small square of small buildings.

JUDGE BONOMY: It's perhaps these details you should be concentrating on because that might be a more helpful reflection of the situation in the interests of the accused.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. If I am asked, I will try to be more detailful in these questions, but if I am asked to judge NATO, I will not do.

JUDGE BONOMY: You were not asked to judge NATO. You were asked to say whether this was the situation you had actually envisaged, had actually --

THE WITNESS: Yes, and I answered bluntly it is exactly the same time and exactly the same incident.

MR. NICE:

Q. Because I want the Judges to have everything about Aleksinac in a piece, and in light of the accused's last intervention, first this ³³¹³⁸ question: Were you aware of a second later incident also involving Aleksinac? Yes or no.

A. Recalling my journalist's memory, there were so many bombings and so many incidents that I don't remember if I listened to any report from NATO about going back to Aleksinac. And I think that it was another date later on, something like May, from the papers you showed me here, and I can assure you that late May of 1999, everybody in my country was talking on television, rallying. So going back to Aleksinac wouldn't add anything to a huge tragedy.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, for completeness, if we can just look very rapidly - I don't think the witness can help us from her answer - at page 57 for May the 28th. You will see there is a reference in the Human Rights Watch report to a second attack or incident, attack on an unidentified target in Aleksinac. Three civilians killed, ten wounded. A single weapon lands in the area of a given street and neighbourhood. The government says more than ten missiles hit Aleksinac, destroying ten houses. Tanjug reports two civilians and ten wounded with seven missiles. NATO does not report any Aleksinac targets on the 27th or 28th of May. Human Rights Watch visited the site, inspected the damage, took eyewitness testimony, observing that the area is some distance from the same Deligrad barracks, target of the earlier incident, observing that Yugoslav government provides forensic detail in the incident in its "White Book." And if the usher would be good enough then to come back to the photograph I inadvertently allowed to be displayed out of sequence at the beginning, we can see in the Human Rights Watch report there is a ³³¹³⁹ photograph of Aleksinac, but it relates, on their material, to the second, not to the first incident. And it's described as "incident" here but "attack" in the later place.

But, madam, I don't think you can help us, from what you've told us, with the detail of any of the second incident.

A. Not at all. I wasn't there.

Q. That's all I ask about Aleksinac. As to Rambouillet and your encounter with the accused, did he give any explanation for the change of approach by the Serbs between the time towards the end of February when they had been in favour of a political solution and the time after the return to Belgrade when they'd been against it?

A. No, he didn't. We didn't have time enough. But to my certain qualified knowledge, because I've studied the Rambouillet treaty, I didn't need to ask anything more than that. To my knowledge, it was totally justified to deny to sign a treaty that would surrender the whole country in outside powers to govern it, to outside arm, armed personnel to go throughout the country to turn your own country into an international protectorate. So I didn't need to go further on any question; I just wanted the answer.

Q. Had you, in the course of these wars, visited Kosovo itself?

A. No. I visited Kosovo 25 years ago.

Q. Had you visited in the course of these wars either Croatia or Bosnia themselves?

A. No, not at all. I once visited Belgrade in the mid-1980s as a ³³¹⁴⁰ football peer officer for a football game. So it was a more peaceful, a more civilised chance of visiting and watching a game. And we lost, the Greeks, 4 to 1.

Q. In Greece itself accounts of suffering by Serbs are well reported in the local press, are they not?

A. Yes, they were. There were local and live coverage of what was happening there. And for the first one year after the bombing began, Mr. Nice, the Greeks were accused, as journalists throughout Europe, for being pro-Serb. Then two years after, Greeks all over Europe, as journalists, they are praised for revealing the truth and revealing the lies told about this war.

And permit me to say we are very proud to see what everything was written, spoken out, or conversated on Greek media two years after to be exactly the same now it's happening with Iraq in Europe. We start with lies and we end up with truth. And it's not because we are better journalists than the other Westerners, it is just because we were nearby and we know the Balkans. It's part of our blood and our history. And believe me, we know Croatians, we know Slovenians, we know Albanians. They are all friends of ours. The enemies of the Balkans are not in the Balkans.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli, just answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I answered the question the best way I thought I could explain. He's talking about the media. Media is my life, is my profession.

I have to protect my colleagues in Greece, Mr. Nice. ³³¹⁴¹

MR. NICE:

Q. Since you raised, and it was you who raised it, the question of the criticism of the Greek press, the criticism is actually, is it not, to the effect that the Greek press underreported the suffering of, for example, Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo Albanians? Would you accept that is a bias that was revealed?

A. No, not at all. You have to follow the media in Greece so that you would never pose a question like this. We are a nation of refugees. We've got three or four wars in our backs. Half of the Greek population is moved out of the eastern coast of Turkey. We are a refugee nation. We know how is it to be a refugee.

I'll tell up one question posed by the Greek media for the record and for the knowledge of the Judges: We know the Kosovars, we know the Albanians, we know their face. One million Albanians are working in my country. We were wondering why the media, the Western media, when Mr. Blair or Mr. 007, Roger Moore, were in there propoganding for the little Kosovars were showing only blue-eyed, yellow-hair kids. Were they picking them up? There was even one -- this question in the Greek media. We went that much in depth. All the political parties, all the media, apart from their, you know, political affiliation, they were talking about the extortion. We are not a nation and we're not media that we wouldn't recognise crimes of war. But genocide? Mistakes of war? Why should anybody accept the mistakes of NATO, the genocide of NATO or -- and not mistakes of other nations and countries?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli. ³³¹⁴² Mr. Nice, you're cross-examining the witness. When you think you have had the answer, you should --

MR. NICE: Yes, I'm reluctant to interrupt her.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, you're very polite. You can cut me shorter if you want.

MR. NICE:

Q. I'm grateful for that invitation. I shall take you up on it. My next question is this: You are, of course, a vice-president of the campaign to free this accused, aren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the course of the time when you have been vice-president of that campaign and organisation, documents have been put out characterising this Court, haven't they?

A. Yes. I've seen them on Internet.

Q. I imagine you stand behind the documents that have been put out by your organisation; is that right?

A. I'm a member of this organisation. I came to Hague four years ago, trying to offer myself as one of the defenders of Mr. Milosevic. I have a personal political opinion that this trial --

Q. I'm going to take you up on your offer and I'm going to cut you short. Do you stand behind the documents that are put out by this organisation?

A. The ones that are to my knowledge.

Q. For example, there was document on the 21st of October of 2001 --

A. Yes. ^{33143 BLANK PAGE 33144}

Q. -- a declaration of the international conference. Were you at that international conference?

A. If I was in this international conference?

Q. The international conference Freedom for Slobodan Milosevic, Moral, Political and Legal Imperative --

A. Yeah.

Q. -- held in Belgrade on the 21st of October, 2001. Did you see that -- were you there?

A. I don't remember. I've been, in 2001, back in Belgrade. I was invited by the Communist Party. But I fully agree.

Q. So the description of this Tribunal as a political instrument of genocide and satanisation is the sort of terminology you would stand by?

A. Genocide, this Court is not able to do, but demonisation, yes. Sometimes it reminds me, the way it's working, of the medieval times and the priests hunting magicians.

Q. You regard it as an entirely political court, don't you?

A. To my opinion, yes, because I've been in Rwanda and I've seen another court like this ending up into Catholic nuns being responsible for the genocide I watched.

Q. You hold views about America where you equate America with Nazi Germany?

A. I think that the American politics today, like the politics of Sharon, are Neo-Nazi, new order politics and they are against humanity as crimes, that they happen all over the world. I am very proud -- I know very well the American constitution, I'm American educated -- I have a ³³¹⁴⁵ degree from the American college, I have relatives in the States, and I think that fighting against these politics, I fight even for the civil rights and the political rights of American citizens all over the world.

MR. NICE: Yes. I don't think I can ask any further questions of this witness.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination, Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: I have no re-examination. I don't know whether Your Honours have any further questions.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, anything you'd like to ask by way of re-examination?

THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear you. Could you repeat it again.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, when my rights are restored to me, I will examine witnesses.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Kanelli, that concludes your testimony. Thank you for coming to give it. You may now leave.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. KAY: In relation to the article, Your Honour, with the photographs that was produced during the testimony, I submit that it should be made a further exhibit. 249 would be the number, D249.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That can be admitted as 249.

THE REGISTRAR: D249.

MR. KAY: On the further matter of the report referred to by the ³³¹⁴⁶ witness which Your Honours questioned about, if I suggest the same procedure we've done with Mr. Hutsch, and that is asking him to refer it back to us so that it can then be looked at, translated if necessary, and submitted and then if anything further arises, can be dealt with at that stage.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will follow that procedure. Mr. Kay, what is the state of play in relation to a witness list?

MR. KAY: We had discussions at the end of last week and the beginning of this week concerning witnesses. There had been scheduled a witness for today, a German national called Mr. Hensch, whom I advised the Court was not a great distance away from the Tribunal. He was awaiting clearance from his government as to his availability -- or his ability to testify in this trial. His government said that they were not concerned with that matter and have reported that, suggesting that it be a matter referred to the OSCE, which is a particular route that had been undertaken.

However, yesterday I received a communication that this witness was not required as a Defence witness, that he was to be withdrawn from the list. That communication came to me from the court liaison officer, and I take that instruction on that issue, and in those circumstances invite the Court to withdraw Mr. Hensch from the officially filed list of witnesses for the Defence in this case.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I take that to mean then, Mr. Kay, that there was some communication between the accused, his associates, the liaison officer, and yourself. ³³¹⁴⁷

MR. KAY: This was passed to me by the liaison officer, and that is a means of communication. And I have to, in the circumstances as I know exist, take that as being an instruction.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's a matter for you, of course, in collaboration with the accused, to determine how the case is to be presented, and the Chamber acknowledges this as a communication and as a sign of cooperation between the accused and yourself, but in the interests of transparency, the records will show that the witness was withdrawn in the way that you have indicated.

MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. And in accordance with my duty, I follow those instructions. I know this witness had been seen by Mr. Milosevic. He'd interviewed him. He was not a witness that we had interviewed or had time to interview, and a judgement has been made -- a decision has been made on the matter in relation to his appearance in this trial.

In those circumstances, we have no further witnesses to call before the Court today.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you should tell us formally about the other German witness.

MR. KAY: Mr. Hartwig, who was a witness who had made his availability clear to the Defence and with whom we had communication, we had started the process which was required by him, of obtaining permission from the relevant ministry of his government for his appearance as a Defence witness. That was attended to when that was made known to us, as well as the additional issue of obtaining a clearance from the OSCE in ³³¹⁴⁸ respect of whom he had been working as a monitor and had been head of the mission for the Kosovo Verification Monitoring Mission. We received a communication recently - I can't remember the date off the top of my head, although this has been charted. I'll see if it's on the document that's just been supplied to me before I came into court - in which he indicated his refusal to testify. The information we had, anyway, was that he was currently in Afghanistan, although that was not the reason for his decision.

I'm just looking through the schedule we have which details the 165 witnesses or so that we have been attempting to contact in relation to this case to see if there can be any more explicit information that I can give Your Honours. If you'll forgive me for looking at it while I'm addressing you, I've found it, but there's no information here, although the communication was on the 18th of October, I see from the document here. We received a message that he was no longer willing to testify. Furthermore, at this stage he had not received a clearance from the German government in relation to his testimony. So although, as I said yesterday, there appears to be buck passing in relation to responsibility, they do appear to keep control over -- or want to vet whether people give evidence or not.

The information I had in relation to Mr. Hensch, who has been withdrawn, in the letter of the 18th of October, was he was to be subject of a decision of the OSCE, but the legal counsellor for the German embassy had said, "The permission to testify for Mr. Hartwig is still under consideration, and I will get back to you in this regard as soon as ³³¹⁴⁹ possible."

The letter that we received was on the 18th of October that I received it. It seems to have been received here, I think, on the 16th of October. And he gave as his reason, "I'll only appear and testify in front of the court Tribunal if the defendant will be permitted again to defend himself. Therefore, no date for my estimated day or even time of arrival can be provided at this stage. It depends on the Court when the current procedure will be changed. Additionally, I want to obtain the permission to testify in advance directly from the German office -- foreign office as well as from the European Community." That was an e-mail transmission from Mr. Hartwig that came to us at the Tribunal.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, once you satisfy yourself that the required consents have been obtained, in view of the refusal of the witness to testify, you will then, I suppose, consider what action you'd like to take.

MR. KAY: Yes. That will be something that we will need to review. As I described to the Court yesterday, we have gone through the process of going through the witnesses and now we're left with the situation of considering means that the Court have suggested in various sessions during this phase of the trial relating to the production of witnesses.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Next week, what is the state of the witness list for next week -- tomorrow, rather?

MR. KAY: Tomorrow we have nobody. I need to clarify, as I've ³³¹⁵⁰ only had a brief conversation in the break, in relation to the witness Spasic as to what was exactly said by that witness when he was spoken to yesterday, and that needs to be clarified to me. It's to make sure that I have the terms of the conversation as accurately as possible.

JUDGE ROBINSON: He was due to testify tomorrow.

MR. KAY: Yes. My information was definitely that he won't be here tomorrow. And whether he is making himself available in the future I need to be told about. I haven't had a chance to speak in detail with the person who spoke to him yesterday afternoon.

In those circumstances, that is all the witnesses we have for production this week. And as for next week, there is a meeting this afternoon for us to review the position.

And as I said, the Court has expressed the view concerning measures to obtain the attendance of witnesses. We would welcome a discussion, if possible, with Your Honours about that matter on the exact means, because it is clear that it is by no means a simple process. You do have, on one hand, people saying there's no objection referring it elsewhere, but you do have states saying they're considering the matter of the permission that's sought by the particular witness. So the procedure can be very elaborate in certain circumstances.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In relation to the witness Hartwig, the e-mail sent by the Registry yesterday indicated that the EU had consented and there were promises of consent from the OSCE and the Germans, and both -- I'm reading from the e-mail. It says, "Both should be here today." That was yesterday. ³³¹⁵¹

MR. KAY: I haven't had an update yet from anything beyond yesterday. And I know that the particular officer dealing with it within the Registry is providing information to me as soon as it comes to hand. But we would welcome -- oh, I'm sorry.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you have any observations?

MR. NICE: I don't think so. At the moment we're simply waiting to see what witnesses are going to come voluntarily. I will at a later stage have observations to make about any proposed methods of compulsion of witnesses, but probably best left till later.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, in view of the fact that you have indicated that there will be no witnesses for tomorrow, it doesn't seem useful to have a hearing tomorrow.

MR. KAY: Very well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In that case, you would advise us in the normal way of your witness list by Thursday of this week.

MR. KAY: Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Or Friday. That's the witness list for next week.

MR. KAY: I will update the Court and all parties in the usual way and provide as much information as possible on the current situation so that everyone is aware of developments, including what has taken place this week, after the previous update, as well as any intentions that we may have in the future, if that is helpful to the Court.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In which case the hearing is adjourned until ³³¹⁵² Tuesday of next week. We are adjourned.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.34 a.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.