³⁶⁴⁸⁰

Wednesday, 23 February 2005

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Two things, Your Honour. First, yesterday the letters of August the 1st, 1995, that I spoke of, letters sent by the accused to Izetbegovic and Mladic I said were in English. The accused challenged that. The Chamber will remember that I'm not in a position at present to provide documents, but I'm doing my best to ensure that they may be provided.

Although I'm quite satisfied that the covering letter or a covering letter from the accused was indeed in English and that Belgrade translations in English were provided, I'm also now satisfied that there were indeed Cyrillic Serbian originals. I forecast they will be that were signed and so that point, insofar as it was at point all, goes. And I'll make the documents available if and as soon as I possibly can but these are matters outside my control.

Second point: Yesterday, the extent of the re-examination on the accused's own tab 8 caused me some concern but I raised an objection and the Chamber ruled against me, but it set me to thinking as I heard the extent of the inferences the accused was inviting the Chamber to draw from the documents it did have what other materials might be available the better to assist the Chamber, and of course the United Nations website has ³⁶⁴⁸¹ a great deal of material that can be downloaded, and I simply inform you that we have, and we have available for you in case you should find it helpful small collections of papers, I think they're neutral on the issues between the accused and the Prosecution, culminating in a transcription of the session itself. It's not really an argument because it appears the decisions have already been made. A transcription of the session where the various countries concerned make speeches, as Your Honour will understand and be familiar with, and it's quite clear from those sessions that tab 8 was not referred to. Indeed, in light of what is in the last paragraph of tab 8 it would be very surprising if it was referred to. So that would appear to confirm the point that the document was not considered at the time of taking the vote and making the speeches. But also, in addition to that material should you want it, the transcription of the hearing, there are two telegrams and one letter sent by Yugoslavia to the council in the lead-up to the decision and perhaps a document of which you will have already heard, the earlier report dated the 26th of May of 1992 on original Security Council Resolution 752. So that material's all available for you. It's about that much reading if you're interested in looking at it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice. Mr. Milosevic, to complete your re-examination of this witness. Bear in mind the witness has been here four days.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am bearing it in mind. Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

WITNESS: VLADISLAV JOVANOVIC [Resumed] ³⁶⁴⁸²

[Witness answered through interpreter] Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

A. Good morning.

Q. You said at one point that the Kosovo Liberation Army was an infantry of NATO, and you were asked on what basis you asserted that. I assume you remember that. Do you recall saying this? Can you confirm that?

A. Yes.

Q. Here I have photocopies of newspaper articles, and this is Ramush Haradinaj's statement. He is allegedly the Prime Minister of Kosovo at present. The title is NATO and KLA, A Single Army. It says, "Soldiers and officers who arrived worked with us as if we were the same army." That's what it says.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please put this on the ELMO.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how does that arise out of cross-examination?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that what he said -- what Mr. Jovanovic said has been brought into question; that is, that the KLA played the role of a NATO infantry, and I am asking on what basis he said this. He was unable to provide material evidence, but now here I have an article where the same Haradinaj says that NATO and the KLA were a single army. You can see it from this.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Who asked that question, Mr. Milosevic? Who ³⁶⁴⁸³ asked that question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, one of you gentlemen. I think it was Mr. Bonomy who put that question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Very well. Deal with it as briefly as possible.

MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, I hesitated to see what was coming. It doesn't seem to me that even if I had adopted as a challenge a question from the Bench on this topic that would make this material admissible, for it's simply and clearly the expression of view by someone else sent out through the newspaper. And in our respectful submission, and I repeat, I don't want ever to be seen to be trying to shut this accused out of the material he wants to put in if it's admissible. I recognise the problems of objections which regularly take more time than they save because of what follows from my initial objection, but the Chamber may recall that there were significant limitations placed on our adducing additional material in re-examination. I'm reminded, for example, of a rather material file we wanted to put in with Lilic in his re-examination, refused. In our submission, the Chamber should be conservative in the liberty it allows this accused to add material to all they have to deal with and will have nil or almost nil evidential value.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It was a question that I had raised, and I will allow the accused to deal with it very briefly.

Very briefly, and let's see whether the witness can say anything about the newspaper article. If he can't, then we will not admit it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson, but I ³⁶⁴⁸⁴ really must draw attention to what Mr. Nice said. He says that whatever is said here is irrelevant. For him, it is irrelevant when he introduces completely meaningless tabs about the content of United Nations Resolutions which is treated as if it was confidential, and then you can see that everything was published in the newspapers even before this Resolution was passed, and then he says it's not relevant. This is all part of his mystification. Why should something be public if it can be confidential? That's his logic. And I think you should draw his attention to this.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Ramush Haradinaj --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do I not want this tit-for-tat, and the parties should try to refrain from raising objections which will only trigger further comments from the other party. Mr. Nice, I don't wish to hear anything more about it. I don't think any offence was done to you.

MR. NICE: There was no offence, Your Honour, and can I explain? This is one of the problems the accused is facing through not taking legal advice. The legal basis for the adoption of the evidence, which will be well understood to Your Honours, is something that the accused seems to have missed, and it may be that if I can't help, maybe Mr. Kay can explain it to him at the interval.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Kay, no doubt, will have heard that. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic. Let us move on. And how long do you plan to be with this witness? How much longer? ³⁶⁴⁸⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope not more than half an hour, Mr. Robinson, unless I'm constantly interrupted. I understand the reasons for these interruptions, so I don't mind.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The assertion you made here has been put forward by Haradinaj himself in a much more clear manner.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please put this on the ELMO.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It is mentioned here that the Serbian forces had used force - Kijevo, Decani, Prilep are mentioned - and he says to usurp Kijevo and continue with Decani and Prilep. All this shows that they were the ones that were doing this and the police were not using force disproportionately, that they were simply responding to this. Things were being turned upside down. The Albanians were supposed to be attacking the Serbian forces wherever possible.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, put a question to the witness.

THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please slow down. The interpreters cannot keep up.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, are you aware that NATO and the KLA were a single army, as Haradinaj says?

A. I am aware of this for several reasons, some public, some not. And many of these reasons were published in books written by the former KLA leaders and in the writings of some Western newspapers, as well as an officer of the Albanian army in Albania who took part in the fighting and ³⁶⁴⁸⁶ in organising the passage of the KLA from Albania into Kosovo in order to pull out soldiers of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to make the NATO destruction easier, to facilitate it.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, is that the sole source of your knowledge of that matter?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the battle at Kosara? That's a village near the border between Albania and Kosovo and Metohija. There are many statements about this.

JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked is in relation to the relationship between NATO and the KLA, and is your sole source of knowledge about that what other people have written? Because if it is, it seems to me a pointless exercise asking you about it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are public matters, and even the sparrows on the roofs knew about them. The contacts between the KLA and NATO were very close.

JUDGE BONOMY: You are the foreign secretary of the country and we have you here and there are relevant things you can be asked about that were within your personal knowledge and you're being asked about what was in the newspaper.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the world papers wrote about the battle at Kosara and yet Albanians from Albania passed over into Kosovo and Metohija and that this action was synchronised with the NATO bombing. What further proof do you need, Your Honours, in order to be convinced of this? The Western press wrote about it extensively, and it's a fact that the KLA, on the ground in Kosovo during the bombing, had satellite ^{36487 BLANK PAGE 36488} telephone connections at their disposal. They could only have received this from Western countries, nobody else.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have explored this matter sufficiently. Move on to another issue for re-examination.

JUDGE KWON: Can we get the date of this newspaper article?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's on the ELMO now. You can take a look at the date. This is an excerpt from the book written by Ramush Haradinaj who wrote about how the war for Kosovo and Metohija was prepared. The previous page - would you please put it on the ELMO - where it says -- where it says quite clearly what he said, that NATO and the KLA are a single army. Thank you very much.

It's the 9th of January, 1993. Excuse me. This was published on the 9th of January, 2003.

So the facts are coming to light, and ultimately the truth will be clear to everyone. I do not know if you will be among those to whom the truth will become clear.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, proceed with your re-examination, otherwise I'll stop it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, are you aware that, according to United Nations documents, the KLA was supposed to be disarmed?

A. Resolution 1244, regulating the end of the war and the arrival of the civilian and military international mission on that territory, points out that the KLA must be demilitarised. Demilitarisation, in my view and in the interpretation of those who understand these matters, means ³⁶⁴⁸⁹ disarming.

Q. Do you know that the KLA, which included all these murderers and criminals who even took photographs of themselves with severed Serbian heads, became the so-called Kosovo Protection Corps, and they remained under arms but only changed their name?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer. It doesn't arise out of cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Nice said that I used, as he said, Serbian nationalism in order to further my career. Are you aware that in 1989 I was the president of the Republic of Serbia?

A. Yes.

Q. Or, rather, at that time the president of the Presidency of Serbia, and a year later, at these multi-party elections that took place, I became the president of Serbia?

A. Yes. I think that in 1989 you were the president of the Presidency, a collective body, and --

Q. And that's the position I held when I spoke at Gazimestan and afterwards I was elected. So I was holding the top post in Serbia. Is that in dispute?

A. No.

Q. Well, how could I have furthered my career? Where else could I have gone? How could I have been promoted?

A. Well, it's not clear to me either, because you were already at the ³⁶⁴⁹⁰ top.

Q. Well, it isn't clear to anyone.

MR. NICE: The accused's questions are probably valueless, and the answers, but he also doesn't accurately characterise the way I put the Prosecution case. I maintain, of course, that his assumption and retention of power is in answer to certain constituencies, and I express myself quite cautiously, carefully.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic; move quickly.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, you were asked about the Cutileiro plan. In the negotiations on the Cutileiro plan, did anyone participate from Yugoslavia or Serbia?

A. No.

Q. In these negotiations which were organised by Ambassador Cutileiro, and he was told to do so by the Conference on Yugoslavia, were only three sides participating from Bosnia and Herzegovina without the presence of anyone from Yugoslavia, from Croatia, or from any other country outside Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. This was a tripartite meeting, and only the three constituent nations in Bosnia and Herzegovina were present, and the negotiations were chaired by Ambassador Cutileiro. There was nobody else present there.

Q. And those three sides agreed on their own, with Cutileiro's mediation, that the plan should be adopted before any kind of hostilities broke out. Is this correct? ³⁶⁴⁹¹

A. Yes. This plan was called the document on the constitutional order of Bosnia and Herzegovina on cantonal principles, or something to that effect.

Q. Please look at tab 22, which refers to the year 1993. I am interested only in one very brief excerpt towards the end, where it says all the blame is one-sidedly again being shifted onto the Bosnian Serbs, and this is given emphasis. "The condemnation of the Bosnian Croats is very mild although the Russians asked that the battles in Central Bosnia and Mostar be condemned, because at that time there was also a war between the Croats and the Muslims." So here, too, all the blame is being shifted onto the Bosnian Serbs.

MR. NICE: Sorry, this is all comment. If you look at tab 22, what the accused has just put onto the record, unless I'm missing it, is entirely his comment preparatory for a question. I don't make these objections often, but really he must be kept to comprehensible questions.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, ask a question and avoid the comments. Avoid the preparatory comments.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am afraid that there is a misunderstanding, Mr. Robinson, because what I read out is not a comment. It's a quotation from tab 22, a quotation. It says that all the blame is being -- "As a result of that, the adopted communique was not balanced, bias and on the front-burner they put the blame on the Bosnian Serbs." This is towards the end of the document.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That having been clarified, what is the question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. ³⁶⁴⁹²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can it be seen from this document also that there was a continuous double standard approach? We saw in tab 8 --

JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. That's not permissible. Next question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will reformulate my question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, we saw yesterday when we analysed the Secretary-General's report and the Resolution introducing sanctions, that the report said that the KLA had withdrawn but the Croatian forces had remained in Bosnia. In the Resolution, sanctions were imposed on Serbia while the Croats were only mildly warned that they should withdraw their forces from Bosnia.

In this telegram, we see that all the blame is being shifted onto the Serbian side while the Croatians are only given a very mild warning. Is this something that runs through the entire Yugoslav crisis?

A. The line taken by the United Nations towards the Bosnian Serbs was always more severe than towards the Bosnian Croats, not to mention the Bosnian Muslims who were almost never criticised. And this was something that constantly ran through the whole process.

Whether this was a result of developments on the ground, it's hard to say, but it's true that there was pronounced hostility towards the Bosnian Serbs which ran through all these documents, while on the other hand the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims, when they fought among themselves, and they did so very cruelly at that time, this was never ³⁶⁴⁹³ practically reflected in the documents, this tripartite civil war, and no appeals were made for this to end.

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, yesterday to Mr. Nice's question you said that you had read all these tabs. Perhaps you have. Perhaps you've read them in more detail than I have because I had less time. So please tell me this: Am I understanding it correctly, namely, that in all of these tabs pertaining to events mentioned in the contents of the Resolutions which deal with Srebrenica, do these documents constantly mention only Bosnian Serbs but not Yugoslavia? Did you find Yugoslavia ever mentioned in these documents?

A. If you are referring to the UN documents, then I did not find the mention of Yugoslavia in those documents, rather only the criticism corrected at Bosnian Serbs and their conduct.

Q. Mr. Nice said that you had to know on the 12th of July about what was going on, and he asked you about what steps you had taken in relation to this gravest crime, as he called it, which took place in Srebrenica. I will now show you the cable sent by Mr. Akashi on the 12th of July. I will not quote everything, but I will put it on the ELMO. This telegram, this cable is Exhibit 713, as is indicated in the upper corner. 28th of July, 2004 is the date when it was admitted. Therefore, you already have the document.

On the 12th of July, therefore, Akashi writes at the end of the first paragraph: "There had been no reports of physical mistreatment."

MR. NICE: Your Honour, we probably need a copy of this on the overhead projector, and it's not sufficient for the accused, with his ³⁶⁴⁹⁴ characteristic disdain, simply to say that, well, you've got it, I don't need to do anything about it. If he's going to present a case, he's got to apply the practices and rules that accommodate the Bench.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I understand he's going to put it on the ELMO. Let it be placed on the ELMO.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, you can see to your left, because what I marked with yellow highlighter may not be visible on the screen.

A. Yes, it is visible.

Q. Yes. Yes, it is visible. This sentence that I read out, "There have been no reports of physical mistreatment." This means that the United Nations, which had several hundred soldiers there from the Dutch Battalion, they also had their representatives, they had no reports regarding this.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not allow that. That's a comment. What is the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, we will cover the chronology from that time on. Did it occur to anyone at the time that any crimes had been committed there?

A. I had no information. It had never occurred to me until much later, when they started discussing it and reporting it, first of all at the UN and also in the international media. However, immediately after the fall of Srebrenica, we had no information. At least, I had no ^{36495 BLANK PAGE 36496} information that some terrible things had happened there.

Q. Very well. It has been frequently mentioned here that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, not to mention Serbia, Yugoslavia, a policy of forcible expulsion was pursued as well as ethnic cleansing. You have mentioned several times what I suppose is known to everyone, that there were crimes committed and that there was violence on all three sides. I will now show you a document dated 19th of August, 1992. 1992. It has been translated into English.

You can put the English version on the ELMO, and I will be reading out from the Serbian original [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] same text.

[Interpretation] It says here -- I did not check the quality of the translation, but it should be good. So it says on the 19th of August, 1992, president of the Serbian republic, as it was called at the time, Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Radovan Karadzic, signed this document in August of 1992. This was sent to the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, Ministry of the Interior, and all security centres. And then it says: "In accordance with our document of the 13th of July, 1992, pertaining to compliance with norms of international laws of war, I once again reissue the order."

And then I will skip over this bit where it says that everybody has to abide by the Geneva Conventions, especially the third and the fourth one, and I would like to draw your attention to point 3. Therefore, he orders that the "forcible expulsion of people and other illegal measures against civilian population be prevented. Any ³⁶⁴⁹⁷ certificates on the selling of property or statements by refugees that they would not return have no legal validity and declared invalid." This is what is stated in the order by Radovan Karadzic. And at the end, it states the following: "The general position is that all police organs and all army organs --" or, rather, "all organs of the army and police in the area of responsibility are duty-bound to thoroughly investigate any cases where there's reason to believe that the norms of international humanitarian laws had been violated." It says in item 5: "All members of police of the Serbian republic have to provide all assistance to the representatives of the Red Cross, UNHCR, and other humanitarian organisations. Full security must be ensured for these persons as well as full access to all prisons where prisoners of war are held."

Therefore, my question is as follows: This is in line with what we have heard from the leadership of Republika Srpska, and we have documents to confirm it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question? I mean, this -- what you have read is an order prohibiting forced transfer. What is the question in relation to that order?

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm on my feet. I also observe the question, I think, if I understood it correctly, took about four minutes to read out, three or four minutes. Not the question --

JUDGE ROBINSON: You have taken an equally long time to read out --

MR. NICE: Sometimes, yes, Your Honour, but when there is no ³⁶⁴⁹⁸ sustainable question at the end of it, it really is --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the question. Let's hear the question concerning this order.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very simple, but this does not deal only with forcible transfer or expulsion. I would like to remind you, Mr. Robinson, that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear the question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, according to our information, did the leadership of Republika Srpska try and did it take measures to prevent this from happening, and did it punish the perpetrators?

A. Yes. We constantly received assurances from them that that kind of conduct was banned. I know about a year or so ago a book was published where all such instructions and orders by Radovan Karadzic were published, as well as his correspondence with international dignitaries.

Q. No. I'm not now speaking about the book which was published a year or two ago. I'm now referring to this order from August of 1992. Therefore, my question is very clear: According to our knowledge at the time, did the leadership of Republika Srpska try and did it in fact undertake measures in order to prevent any kind of an ethnic discrimination and to ensure compliance with Geneva Conventions and so on?

A. Yes. We received such assurances from them.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask that this be exhibited because this is a document. ³⁶⁴⁹⁹

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, one of the questions you were asked there was whether the Republika Srpska tried and took measures to prevent this from happening and did it punish the perpetrators. Can you give me an example of the punishment of perpetrators that you were aware of at the time?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally am not familiar with all of the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Perhaps there were such cases in the course of the war, but I'm unable now to give you more details.

JUDGE BONOMY: It would appear all you're doing is confirming very, very leading questions put to you by the accused without having any personal knowledge of the circumstances at all, and it concerns me that these may well be valueless answers and valueless questions.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present in Bosnia throughout the entire period of the war except that I was in Bijeljina on one night. Therefore, I was not kept abreast of the developments there. And you cannot expect me to say any more than what I know.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic --

JUDGE BONOMY: My criticism is not aimed at you, it's aimed at the pointlessness of the question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, your last question. We must bring this to an end.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions, Mr. Robinson. I don't know why this should be my last one.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I will only allow one more. ³⁶⁵⁰⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions. Are you not going to allow me to put them?

JUDGE ROBINSON: You can put one more question and we'll bring it to an end.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I will ask the next question that's on my list. It is very difficult now for me to distinguish between what is important and what isn't.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please take a look at tab 51. This is the Secretary-General's report. I would like to draw your attention to the date of this report, the 30th of August.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have 51, Mr. Milosevic. We stop at 50.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's in the binder provided by Mr. Nice. These are Mr. Nice's papers, not mine.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... it was an existing exhibit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, we have found it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Therefore, at the very beginning, it says on page 1, among other things, it says: "My Special Representative raised the issue in a meeting with President Milosevic..." It deals with the issue then. "Various efforts have been made by my Special Representative to obtain access for UNPROFOR --" therefore, access for UNPROFOR -- "to Srebrenica and Zepa ... My Special Representative raised the issue in a meeting with President Milosevic on [In English] 12 August 1995, in which he referred to the ³⁶⁵⁰¹ commitment made by General Mladic to General Smith on the question of ICRC access to the missing from Srebrenica. President Milosevic promised to do all he could to convince General Mladic to grant such ICRC access but indicated that he was having difficulties communicating with General Mladic."

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, were you at this meeting, the meeting between the representative and Mr. Milosevic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I was no longer minister of foreign of affairs at the time and that Mr. Milutinovic probably attended the meeting.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The dispatch sent on the 14th of August, so more than one month after the Srebrenica events. So this is the dispatch sent by Akashi. This is your Exhibit 714.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to draw his attention to this dispatch, Mr. Akashi's dispatch sent to Annan at the UN, who at the time was under-secretary for operations, I assume.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. He explains: "I suggested that recent allegations appearing in the press about human rights --" "[In English] I suggest -- I suggested that recent allegations --" [Interpretation] So he says, "I suggested --" this is in Akashi's dispatch sent to the UN on the 14th of August. I suppose that based on that this report was written. And at the end of the first paragraph of this dispatch, and I will put it on the ELMO: "[In ³⁶⁵⁰² English] I suggested that recent allegations appearing in the press about human rights violations made such access all the more important."

JUDGE KWON: Put it on the ELMO and read it. Do it in an orderly way.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

JUDGE KWON: Is this Exhibit 714 or 13? Can we see the upper part of the exhibit? Yes, 714.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, do you have personal knowledge of this?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was still holding the office of the minister. I was in that position for several more days after that. And if the telegram arrived while I was there, then, yes, I was aware of it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, what I'm trying to show here is that on the 12th of August, the events in Srebrenica were not known. And if we take a look at the UN Security Council Resolution at tab 57 --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want a speech. Just ask a question of the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jovanovic, does this document discuss at all and does this document provide any information about something grave having happened at Srebrenica? Did anybody know about this at the time?

A. We knew nothing about it. And this shows that Mr. Akashi didn't know anything about it either and that he was putting in efforts to learn ^{36503 BLANK PAGE 36504} something more.

Q. Please tell me, is it clear that even on the 21st of December, 1995, when the Security Council adopted Resolution 1034, therefore in December of 1995, this Resolution states: "Affirms that violations of humanitarian rights in the area of Srebrenica, Zepa, Banja Luka, Sanski Most from July to October 1995 must be fully and properly investigated [In English] by the relevant United Nations and other international organisations and institutions."

JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So it is being said that an investigation is necessary, and this is being said at the time when international forces are only a month away from entering Bosnia and Herzegovina.

A. That corroborates what you are saying, namely that all these were rumours that needed to be confirmed by international factors. Nobody knew definitively that something had happened there.

Q. When we condemned the attack on Srebrenica, was our motivation that it was an attack on a UNPA, that it was --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That concludes the re-examination. Mr. Jovanovic, that concludes your testimony. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.

We will exhibit the document which Mr. Milosevic wanted to have exhibited.

JUDGE KWON: Karadzic's order.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The order by Karadzic. ³⁶⁵⁰⁵ You may now leave, Mr. Jovanovic.

THE REGISTRAR: That will be D279.

MR. OBRADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for me to stay here. It was a privilege and honour to represent my country here. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for your presence.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the next witness is called, Mr. Milosevic -- did you have something to say?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have an observation to make, a complaint, rather. I believe it is completely justified, but it is up to you to judge.

Yesterday during the examination by Mr. Nice, and several months ago when we had before us Witness Diego Arria, I believe his name was, both times, in a completely inappropriate manner, a document of the International Court of Justice on provisional measures was used. My complaint is that did you not reprimand Mr. Nice for the way he was using it, because the International Court of Justice did not go into the merits of the case, and he only made certain -- quoted certain claims made by Bosnia-Herzegovina.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I have stopped that, Mr. Milosevic. If you had an objection to make about the use by Mr. Nice of the ICJ case, then you should have made the objection at that time.

Before the next witness is called, I want to --

[Trial Chamber confers] ³⁶⁵⁰⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the next witness is called, I want to use this opportunity to express the Trial Chamber's views and conclusions about the use of time by the parties. My first remarks are addressed primarily to the accused, and the second set of remarks will be addressed primarily to the Prosecutor.

Mr. Milosevic, so far you have called 19 witnesses. Your recent witness list was a list of 27 witnesses. On your own estimate, these 27 witnesses would utilise 108 hours, and at four hours per day that would be 27 days. When that is added to the two-thirds of the time for cross-examination allotted to the Prosecutor, that would be 18 days and make a total of 45 days for these 27 witnesses. So far you have used 30 days. So that at the end of the examination of the list of 27 witnesses, you would have used a total of 75 days or half of the assigned period of 150 days, and in that period you would only have called 27 plus the 19 witnesses already called, making a total of 46.

What is even more alarming is that the witness list, your recent witness list, comprises Kosovo witnesses so that at the end of 75 days or half the time allotted, on the most optimistic estimate, only one-third of the Defence case would have been presented.

Now, I looked at the witness list, and I'm troubled by the time that you have set for some of these witnesses. Four hours for three witnesses. I mean that is each. For two witnesses, six hours each. For another two, seven hours each. And for another three, nine hours each, and for one witness, 12 hours.

Is this the best use of the time given to you? And more ³⁶⁵⁰⁷ significantly, more importantly, is this the best use of the Court's time? And we say no. At this rate, it is very likely that at the end of 150 days, no more than 100 or 110 or 120 witnesses would have been called. The Chamber makes it clear that you must bear, you will bear ultimately the responsibility for this, but we will monitor examination-in-chief carefully to ensure that time is properly used. Evidence must be relevant and must not be unduly repetitive. Now, Mr. Nice, the Trial Chamber's allocation of time was based on the expectation that, given your experience and professionalism, cross-examination would not take up more than two-thirds of the time used for examination-in-chief, but this premise has not been borne out in practice. Our statistics show that cross-examination has consumed as much as 80 per cent of the time for examination-in-chief. You're also introducing many documents in cross-examination, and this has the effect of lengthening the re-examination. You will attend to that, but the Trial Chamber will also be monitoring strictly the introduction of items in cross-examination.

The Chamber brings these matters to the attention of all the parties, and this includes the assigned counsel. The Court's time must be used efficiently and well. We are not satisfied in particular, Mr. Milosevic, that your use of your time is the best use of that time, and hereafter, we intend to be very strict but fair in monitoring the use of the time allocated to you.

We're keeping the use of the Court's time under review. We are not satisfied with the pace of the trial. And I should say that in due ³⁶⁵⁰⁸ course, one of the measures that we may very well have to consider is to seek the advice of the medical personnel as to whether the accused, who has been in good health for several months, can work for four days per week for three weeks per month.

I also want to mention to the accused that he has an assigned counsel. The Appeals Chamber has illustratively listed some of the ways in which assigned counsel can be of assistance to the accused, and naturally the Trial Chamber's approach to the use of time must obviously take account of this facility which is available to the accused. Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: One observation. Of course we'll do all we can to ensure that the allotted period of time, two-thirds for both cross-examination and administrative matters I think was the original scheme, will be met or bettered, and indeed with the last witness I think I'm under 50 per cent of the time that he took by my cross-examination. The practice that I was able to introduce with this last witness of the pre-reading of Defence exhibits existing or new that I propose to ask a witness to deal with is one that it seemed to me bore some fruit with the witness because certainly on the second day he was able more swiftly to deal with propositions than would have been the case had he had to be taken through exhibits, and I would be grateful at some stage for being informed, if the Chamber feels it can, as to whether pre-reading is something the Chamber finds helpful particularly with an eye to judicial economy.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It is helpful, but I think it is something to be ³⁶⁵⁰⁹ addressed on a case-by-case basis.

MR. NICE: Certainly. But looking at the witness list, we see several witnesses of the kind for whom pre-reading of some of the meetings, for example, will be very valuable, but we'll do our best to comply, of course.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I mentioned the time that you have estimated for some of the witnesses; four hours, six hours, seven hours, nine hours, and for one 12 hours. You should try to aim to have a witness's testimony finished as quickly as possible. Do you really need that length of time for examination-in-chief? For some witnesses you have an hour and a half. I mean, that's fine. But I would say that you should aim to have a witness not spend more than a day in examination-in-chief.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you said earlier that you would lead the evidence orally, not relying on witness statements. However, for the sake of time - I'm speaking for myself - I would like to advise you now to consider presenting some part of your evidence by way of written statements using the regime of Rule 89(F) or 92 bis. Take Danica Marinkovic, for example, who appears on page 3 of your witness schedule. According to the schedule, you are saying that you anticipate nine hours for your examination-in-chief. I understand that she's the judge who undertook the investigation into the Racak incident. I know that she's an important witness. However, I don't understand why you should spend nine hours or two and a half days only for your examination-in-chief while she has nothing to say about the acts and conduct of yourself. As a judge, I believe she must be capable of ³⁶⁵¹⁰ producing a written statement of what she had seen and experienced in a professional way so that you can concentrate in your examination-in-chief on important matters that should be dealt with orally and on introducing exhibits that should be tendered through her, substituting other peripheral matters with the written statement. In such a way, I believe you would be able to conclude your examination-in-chief in a session or two, saving much of your precious time.

I advise you to bear this in mind in planning the future witness schedule.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something, Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to point out that your advice is useful indeed, and I will endeavour to make the most rational use of my time possible. However, I do believe you should bear in mind that objectively speaking, at this moment, since I have never really had any time for pure preparation, I am not now working three days a week. I have to work five or six days a week practically because I have to see witnesses I didn't have the opportunity to see before, and before, to be honest, I met as many witnesses as I could. Sometimes I met with two or three witnesses a day. And the opposing party, as you know, sometimes had five or ten.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That is very relevant to one of the comments that I made. I have heard what you said, but in assessing it, I cannot ignore the fact that you have available to you assigned counsel, and you are not ^{36511 BLANK PAGE 36512} making use of the assigned counsel. You have your associates as well. So you cannot be heard to plead lack of time for preparation when you're not making use of a facility that is available to you. The Appeals Chamber has ruled on this matter. So you cannot -- that will not avail you. It will not avail you with this Trial Chamber to make that argument, and I will totally ignore that argument in assessing questions of time in relation to you.

If you make use of assigned counsel --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and you run into a difficulty with time, that's a different matter. But when you do not make use of assigned counsel, you cannot be heard to say -- you cannot be heard to complain about lack of time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, my associates prepare for me a great deal of documentation and perform a lot of preliminary interviews on my behalf, but you will not contest that I need to see witnesses personally as well. I need to speak to them. So the two working days that are left for me after trial are enough to see two witnesses. I cannot interview 20. You must bear in mind the physical constraints I work under.

But let me continue. What you just said, the calculations you made, the arithmetic and the sums you made only show how unrealistic the assigned time is. That's one point.

The second point is let us assume that these sums are correct. Based on the practice of Mr. Nice, who made maximum use of Rules 92 bis ³⁶⁵¹³ and 89(F) to introduce a huge amount of material with minimum preliminary examination, it was done to the detriment of the public. I wish to present witnesses here to be heard by the public. I don't wish to unload a truckful of documents.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... detriment of the public because the Trial Chamber ruled that it was permissible, it was evidence that could be given in that way, and naturally the Trial Chamber would have taken into consideration the right of the public to hear the evidence. But I observe that you have selectively, in your recent comments, ignored what I have had to say about assigned counsel.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What do you mean, Mr. Robinson? In which way did I do that?

JUDGE ROBINSON: You have not mentioned utilising the services of assigned counsel. You have only mentioned your associates. Assigned counsel can help in the preparation of witnesses. That's one of the matters that the Appeals Chamber specifically mentioned. And there are many other ways in which assigned counsel can assist you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the assigned counsel that you imposed on me represent you, not me.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not hear that. I will not hear that. That is an absolutely unacceptable comment, to say that the assigned counsel represent me and represent the Chamber. It is a statement which is totally out of order and cannot be substantiated.

MR. KAY: May I just affirm Your Honour's comments there.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. ³⁶⁵¹⁴

MR. KAY: But as well, under the order of the Trial Chamber, it's important to bear in mind the accused had an opportunity to appoint his own lawyer to represent him. It doesn't begin and end at Ms. Higgins and myself. He can have as many lawyers here as he likes, I presume, if they were engaged in the case. It doesn't begin and end in me at all.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's perfectly true. Mr. Milosevic, you have heard what I have had to say on behalf of the Trial Chamber. I want you to bear it in mind. Do not expect any lenience, any accommodation on account of matters relating to time when you do not utilise the services which are available to you. And I'm warning you of that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, can you tell me really that somebody, even if they are helping me, can double or triple the time spent here? We spend a certain amount of time here. One day is still one day.

I examine witnesses who could, assuming they are helping me, do other jobs at the time; examine witnesses, prepare interviews, et cetera. You are not saying that I'm asking irrelevant questions here or that I'm wasting time. The witnesses who appear here -- who have appeared here so far, answered questions which are important for coming to the truth of the matter, and it will remain so in the future. And it is certainly in my interest --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have discussed this matter sufficiently. You have heard what I have had to say. Call your next witness now. ³⁶⁵¹⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I call witness Vukasin Andric.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

WITNESS: VUKASIN ANDRIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Milosevic. Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Andric.

A. Good morning, Mr. President.

Q. In order to make rational use of time, I shall say a few things about you at the beginning and you will only answer yes or no. You were born in Kosovo and Metohija; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In the village of Raka Urosevac?

A. Yes.

Q. 1950?

A. Yes.

Q. You are a medical doctor, professor at the school of medicine at the university?

A. Yes.

Q. You did your entire schooling in Kosovo except for university ³⁶⁵¹⁶ studies in Belgrade?

A. Correct.

Q. Tell me now, where were you employed? What is your career record? As far as I can see here, you came, after your schooling and specialisation, back to Kosovo and Metohija to work as a doctor.

A. In October 1973, I started working in the institute of labour medicine in Pristina, in the electrical company of Kosovo.

Q. So all the time after completing your university studies you worked there until to date?

A. With a brief -- with the exception of a brief period in 1978, I worked all the time in Kosovo and Metohija. Correction, 1988.

Q. You became professor at the medical faculty in Kosovo in 1981.

A. Yes. I passed all the steps from assistant professor to full-time professor, and I am still a full-time professor at the medical faculty of the university in Pristina.

Q. Thank you, Professor. Throughout this time, you served as the secretary for health in Kosovo and Metohija on the government?

A. Yes.

Q. We will now move to the subject matter of your testimony. Tell me, what is the national -- what was the national composition of the employees in health institutions in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija before the NATO aggression?

A. In the health institutions of Kosovo and Metohija, many doctors and health workers were employed who were non-Serbs; Albanians, Montenegrins, Muslims, Turks, the Roma, et cetera. ³⁶⁵¹⁷

Q. Mr. Andric, would you please open tab 1.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I hope you have this entire documentation that has been translated.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the document under tab 1, we see a diagram of the ethnic composition of the employees in public health facilities in the area of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija as of 31st December, 1998. Dr. Andric, did you provide this data?

A. Yes. This data was collected by my services who were employed in the provincial secretariat for health.

Q. So this is the data collected by the provincial secretariat for health pertaining to December 1998, the end of the year. Therefore, as we see if we look at the total figures in the last column -- will you please read out the last column.

A. 12.599 is the total number of employees in health services. Not only strictly specialised health workers.

Q. Serbs, 5.591; 5.301 Albanians; 455 Montenegrins; 420 Muslims; 196 Turks; 69 Gorani, 360 Romas, and 18 declared as Yugoslavs, 14 foreign nationals; 219 others.

Now, would you be so kind as to tell me, Dr. Andric, in paragraph 87 of the Kosovo indictment, it says: "After Kosovo's autonomy was effectively revoked in 1989, the political situation in Kosovo became more and more divisive. Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian doctors, teachers, professors --" but I underline doctors, teachers, professors, workers, et cetera -- "were dismissed from their ³⁶⁵¹⁸ positions."

You as someone who worked in Kosovo and Metohija at the time, can you confirm that Kosovo's autonomy was revoked?

A. No.

Q. How did you see it, that time of constitutional changes? How did you live through that as a practising doctor, this period that witnessed the revocation of Kosovo's autonomy? How did you see it as a citizen and a doctor?

A. Kosovo's autonomy was never revoked. The amendments that were introduced then only confirmed its autonomy.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I don't appreciate this desultory manner of leading the witness. I thought you're asking him about the statistics in relation to the doctors in health services, and you referred to paragraph 87, and then you just jumped from that to deal with the question of the revocation of Kosovo's autonomy. Are you finished with the questioning on tab 1?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the document under tab 1, as you can see for yourself, Mr. Robinson, the figures speak for themselves. On the last day of December 1998, 5.301 Albanians were still working, whereas in paragraph 87, the claim is that doctors and health workers were dismissed from their positions. That means nine years before. So those who are claimed to have been dismissed nine years before are still working, 5.301 of them. This is material evidence, real figures.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It was not clear to me that you had concluded your examination on that issue. Now that you have made it clear, please ^{36519 BLANK PAGE 36520} continue.

MR. KAY: Could tab 1 be an exhibit?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: D280. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Andric, in the middle of this paragraph that I read out to you, which you don't have in front of you but it doesn't matter, it says: "Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian doctors and other citizens --" I'm going to ask you only about doctors because you had contacts mostly in that area -- "were dismissed from their positions." Are you aware, at least concerning health institutions and the university, are you aware that there were any dismissals of Albanians? Are you aware that Albanians as such were dismissed, or doctors as such were dismissed from the circles that you moved in?

A. The only dismissals were in the cases of serious violations of the legislation in force, specifically the law on labour and labour relations. The greatest number of people consciously and deliberately violated the law in order to be dismissed, but this law was not applied only to Albanians. Anyone who was guilty of an infraction against this law was dismissed.

Q. Let us demystify this law. What does it mean "violation of the law"?

JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, do you have figures for 1989 that we could compare these with, a simple factual matter to see how many people left their employment? In other words, did the secretariat do the same ³⁶⁵²¹ exercise in 1989?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have that sort of data. I have figures for 1999.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, in 1989, you were serving as a doctor.

A. Yes.

Q. You did not have any position in the administration. You were working as a doctor, treating citizens.

A. Correct.

Q. Never mind. We'll come back later to that set of questions.

JUDGE BONOMY: Have I wrongly noted that you were actually a professor by 1989, in the same position as you're in at the moment?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1989, I had a position at the medical faculty. I was a young -- I was junior assistant professor. I had just become a lecturer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You were talking about dismissals. Could you describe a case in which either an Albanian or a Serb would be dismissed for violating the law.

A. There were various cases: If you failed to appear to show up to work for a month, if you refused repeatedly to perform your duties.

Q. In other words, those are the cases envisaged by the law on labour and labour relations. If somebody doesn't show up for work for a long period of time, then he or she is dismissed.

A. Correct. ³⁶⁵²²

Q. Would you say that that was a practice and the legislation that was in force throughout Serbia, not only in Kosovo? For instance, the law said that if you didn't show up for work for five days running without producing a medical certificate, that constitutes grounds for dismissal.

A. Yes. That law was in force and applied to the entire Republic of Serbia.

Q. To be more precise, and this will partially respond to Mr. Bonomy's question, did some of them leave their jobs on their own accord?

A. Yes. There were a number of such cases of people leaving their jobs voluntarily.

Q. What was the reason for them to leave their jobs voluntarily?

A. A large number of them were already deeply involved in the separatist movement. These were people who were very well situated financially. They were very well off. They left their jobs, passed over into parallel institutions, and opened their private practices. I'm speaking of doctors now.

Q. We'll come to this later. The Albanians who were employed in the health --

JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. Professor, can I ask you this: If the wording of this paragraph that was quoted to you was different and was in the following terms: "Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian doctors, teachers, professors, workers, police, and civil servants left their positions," would that be accurate?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A large number of them at that time, ³⁶⁵²³ for various reasons, left their jobs.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. If I understood you correctly, a number of people left their jobs of their own accord. Why?

A. In this way, they were defying the legal system of Serbia and at the same time establishing parallel institutions. In this case I'm referring to doctors and professors at the school of medicine. They established their own parallel school of medicine. The doctors who were well off financially, who were affluent, they opened their private practices and worked in them.

Q. Thank you. Did those Albanians who were employed in the health service and at the university and who did not wish to leave their jobs continue working normally?

A. Yes. They continued working normally, and they had no problems with the authorities whatsoever. Their only problem were their co-nationals, the separatists who forced them to pay. Every month from their personal funds, they had to pay a certain percentage. This was racketeering. And they were put under constant pressure to leave the state institutions and pass over to the parallel institutions. In this ³⁶⁵²⁴ way, both they and members of their families were mistreated.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What percentage, Professor, of Albanians left their jobs?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say -- I don't have the precise data, but, Mr. Robinson, I can only say that at the school of law, approximately less than half of the Albanian professors and assistant professors left the faculty of medicine, and the same goes for doctors.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The situation you mentioned, that those who remained were put under pressure and maltreated, both they and their family members, did this continue until the beginning of the bombing or did it stop earlier?

A. It went on until the bombing began, and it even became more intense.

Q. Tell me, what was the ratio of employed Albanians and Serbs in the health institutions in Pristina?

A. The ratio was 1 to 1, but with reference to doctors on the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija, this was somewhat in favour of the Albanians. There were somewhat more Albanians than Serbs.

Q. Please look at tab 2. This is the table showing the number of national structure of employed health workers according to the situation on the day of the 24th of March, 1992, in Kosovo and Metohija. So this is the 24th of March, 1992, the time when the bombing began. 1999, correction. That's in tab 2.

This shows doctors, dentists, pharmacists, and other health workers. I assume that "other health workers" refers to nurses and other ³⁶⁵²⁵ health professionals.

A. Yes. Unlike the first table which shows only people employed in the health sector -- or, rather, this shows only health professionals.

Q. And the others are auxiliary staff, such as cleaners, drivers, handymen, and so-and-so forth.

A. Yes. They're not shown in this table.

Q. So this refers only to health professionals. As we can see, 2.087 medical doctors were employed. Of these, 1.008 were Albanians, 847 were Serbs, 66 were Montenegrins, 20 were Turks, and 146 were others. Who were the others?

A. All those who lived on the territory of Serbia. Serbia is a multi-ethnic state, and the others include Macedonians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Ruthenians, Croats, and so on.

Q. It says here that on the 24th of March, 1999, the number of employed health workers in all health institutions. There were 4.462 Albanians, and this is 47 per cent, while there were 5 -- 4.248 or, rather, 5.002 others who were not Albanians, Serbs and others. Does that include all the others?

A. Yes.

Q. In tab 2 we also have the number and ethnic composition of employees in the health institutions who were health professionals on the 24th of March, 1999, by health institution: Pristina, Istok, Pec, Djakovica, Prizren, Dragas, Zvecan, Mitrovica, Gnjilane, Vitina. Is there something to which you would like to draw attention?

A. Yes. There are several things I would like to point out. ³⁶⁵²⁶ Depending on the concentration of certain ethnic groups, the percentage of employees changed. So that in Djakovica, for example, there are 605 Albanians and 70 Serbs.

Q. Let me correct you. 70 Serbs and Montenegrins.

A. Yes.

Q. And 605 Albanians.

A. Yes. Whereas in Pristina the ratio was somewhat more favourable. In Prizren, for example, there were more Albanians again, in Kosovska Mitrovica slightly more Serbs.

Q. When you say "Pristina," under number 4 it says University Health Centre of Pristina. The situation favours the Serbs at the university centre?

A. Yes.

Q. Does this have any connection with the level of education among the Serbian and Albanian population?

A. Yes, certainly, because you could never see this ratio among the employed Serbs and Albanians in health institutions in comparison with other institutions such as railway, farms, and so on because there were more Serbs who were highly educated and who got jobs in the -- at the university.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, there must be some difference between these two tables on tab 2. The total number in the first one is 9.570.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: The total in the second one is 13.134. Can you say ^{36527 BLANK PAGE 36528} why there is the difference in the total? Does the second one take account of more than simply health professionals?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, precisely so. The second table includes other workers as well, Mr. Bonomy.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, then. In the second table, you have practically two tables, one up to the 24th of March, 1999, and the second from the 10th of September, 1999. This table shows that in most of these centres except for Dragas, Zvecan and Kosovska Mitrovica there were no Serbs left at all.

A. Yes. Unfortunately, this is the situation at present, I can say, in Kosovo and Metohija. Health workers were mostly expelled from Kosovo and Metohija except for Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica and that only in the northern part of Kosovska Mitrovica. The other Serb professionals were expelled.

Q. Thank you. Tell me, all the professors and assistant lecturers at Pristina University who were of Albanian ethnicity, did they leave their jobs in the clinics and institutes?

A. No. A large of professors and assistant lecturers of Albanian ethnicity remained and worked in the clinical hospital centre and the institutions of the school of medicine.

Q. Could you give us an example according to the best of your recollection of prominent Albanians who remained working at the university? I wish to draw your attention to tab 3 where you drew up a list of those who remained at posts in the Pristina city hospital after ³⁶⁵²⁹ 1999.

A. Yes. I have the list here, and there is a mistake here. It says 1999. It should read 1991. This is a typographical error.

Q. Yes. I understand that.

A. I remember very well Professor Dzevat Nurboja who remained and who taught at the Serbian school of medicine. And the same status was held by Dr. Tefik Ljeci, an assistant professor from forensic medicine. And I can enumerate many other eminent Albanian professors who remained after 1991 and worked in the medical institutes and clinics, including Professor Esref Bicaku, Professor Dzemal Bajraktari, Professor Hisri Tafarshiku, Professor Bedri Bakali, Professor Hamid Ramsi [phoen], Professor Meshqyre Capuni-Brestovci, Professor Muharem Kutlovci, Professor Muharem Bajrami, and many others.

Q. In tab 3 you have a list of professors and lecturers who remained at the university after 1991. You have them listed by section; ophthalmology, surgery, neuropsychiatry, infective diseases, pulmology, internal medicine, anatomy, patophysiology, physiology, pharmacology, pathological anatomy, biochemistry, forensic medicine, stomatology, radiology, and so on. According to your knowledge, there's also paediatrics. So they all remained at their jobs, those are the ones listed in tab 3?

A. Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, going back slightly to the earlier tab, in the second part of the second table, that's from the 10th of September, 1999, where would you appear on that table? ³⁶⁵³⁰

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where would I appear on this table?

JUDGE BONOMY: Should you not be there somewhere?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should not be here on this table from the 10th of September. I should be but, unfortunately, I'm not. I should be in Pristina.

JUDGE BONOMY: I thought you were still working in Pristina.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

JUDGE BONOMY: You're not.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, no. I left Pristina on the 25th of June, 1999.

JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry. I didn't understand this.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this is --

MR. KAY: Tab 2 as an exhibit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This table to which Mr. Bonomy drew attention shows that in primary health care in Pristina, there is not a single Serb. In health protection in Pristina there is no Serb. Transfusology in Pristina, no Serb. University Health Centre in Pristina, not a single Serb. Pharmaceutical institutions in Pristina, not a single Serb. In Istok, again, not a single Serb. In Pec, not a single Serb. In Djakovica, not a single Serb. In the health centre in Pec and the special hospital in Pec and all these institutions, Prizren, Dragas -- in Dragas there are two, in Zvecan there are 8, and in Kosovska Mitrovica 703 health professionals. Of all the centres, there are only two Serbs and Montenegrins in Dragas, ³⁶⁵³¹ eight in Zvecan, and 703 in Kosovska Mitrovica. That's all, as far as I can see from this table. Is this information correct, sir?

A. Yes. Perhaps now there are a few more in Mitrovica because in the meantime something has changed, but for the most part this is correct, yes.

Q. Very well. These professors listed in tab 3 who continued working after 1991, you mentioned that some of them lectured in the Serbian language and continued working as health professionals. Did they have any difficulties as far as the way they were treated by the administration, the management, the institutions they worked in, or the authorities?

A. No. They had no problems whatsoever. They had exactly same rights and obligations as all the other employees in those institutions.

Q. Very well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Professor, these departments, who headed them? Take, for example, ophthalmology. Who would have been the head of ophthalmology; a Serb or an Albanian?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two departments were headed by Serbs, but I will mention, for example, biochemistry where there was an Albanian professor, Burhan Dida, who was even in the management of all the institutes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And generally, though, who were the heads of these departments?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were more Serbs who were heads of departments than others.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. ³⁶⁵³²

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, please tell me about what you know. What guided those who left their positions, and what was the reason for some Albanian professors and professionals to remain working? I would like to hear both sides as you know it. Therefore, what guided those who left their jobs, and what guided those who remained?

A. Those who left their jobs were members of separatist movement --

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... going to be asked this sort of question. I'm not sure that we shouldn't first hear what is the root to his being able to provide any kind of answer.

JUDGE ROBINSON: He might have heard from them. He can state it as a fact.

MR. NICE: He might have done, but in my submission we should hear about this first. And also I must draw to the Chamber's attention that we have to work on 65 ter summaries. A 65 ter summary makes -- makes no specific reference to the medical background. It makes the most passing reference to the background. Now, if I'm supposed to deal with these witnesses as I wish to do, efficiently and in a compact way, without a 65 ter summary of the detail -- giving detail of what the evidence is going to be, it's very hard for us.

On this particular matter, if we're going to have a summary of the reasons for witnesses -- not witnesses, other people doing one thing or another, it's probably going to be impossible for me to deal with it in cross-examination and I shall have to make that position clear. ³⁶⁵³³

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in relation to this question, you must ascertain from the witness the source of the information as to why they left. If he knows, then how did he acquire that information?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You have mentioned very briefly that they were linked to the separatist movement. How do you know about their links with the separatist movement, those people who left their jobs?

A. That was obvious based on everyday contacts. In addition, they left their jobs, went to the illegal school of medicine. Most of them or, rather, all of them who left their jobs went to the illegal medical school, and in addition to that, opened private practices or private clinics where they worked. These private practices and clinics could only have been opened based on a prior approval of state authorities which they obtained from the Ministry of Health. Based on that, they opened their private medical practices and earned ten times what they would have earned at state agencies. And by doing so, they benefited twice because on one hand they portrayed themselves as persecuted people, people who were persecuted by Serbia, which was not true, and on the other hand, they increased tenfold their income and didn't have to pay taxes on that.

Q. All right. So in order for them to obtain licenses and permits for opening private practices, the procedure for that was the same everywhere in Serbia, where the Ministry of Health had to evaluate whether they were qualified, whether they fulfilled all requirements in order to open private practices. Was there a political criterion there or just a ³⁶⁵³⁴ professional one?

A. There was no political criterion there. The Ministry of Health or its subordinate offices issued those permits. And I have to tell you that in view of the number of such private practices, the large majority of them were owned by Albanians. Very few were owned by Serbs, and all the rest were Albanian.

Q. Very well. We have tab 4 here, and you've provided here a list of professors and assistant professors of the medical school in Pristina of Albanian origin who, after leaving their jobs, opened their own private practices and clinics. We can see --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Are these the ones earning tenfold what they would have earned working for the government, Professor? According to your earlier evidence.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, sir, yes. They earned ten times what they would have earned in the public health system of Serbia. However, that was privilege available only to those who were affluent, who had enough money to open their private practices. For me, that was something that was not available to me. I could only have dreamed about that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. You just used the colloquialism, what we're trying to say, actually.

A. I was trying to say that that option was impossible for me, was not available for me.

Q. Dr. Andric, in paragraph 88 of the Kosovo indictment, it says: ^{36535 BLANK PAGE 36536} "During this period, the unofficial Kosovo Albanian leadership pursued a policy of non-violent civil resistance and began establishing a system of unofficial, parallel institutions in the health care and education sectors."

My question is: This phenomenon of people leaving jobs voluntarily that you just described, was that an integral part of, as is stated here, this non-violent resistance?

A. No. This deliberate voluntary leaving of jobs was aimed at creating parallel institutions. They left their jobs and established parallel institutions. The creation of parallel institutions in health care and education sectors is a mechanism through which they pursued this non-violent resistance, although I don't understand how can a resistance be non-violent? In my view, every resistance has to be violent.

Q. Well, that is an academic issue now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the indictment doesn't allege that the leaving of the jobs was what constituted this non-violent civil resistance. So I don't know. You may be answering an allegation that is not there. But continue.

MR. KAY: Tab 3 to be an exhibit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I don't know if I quoted this correctly, but it says here "... the unofficial Kosovo Albanian leadership during this period pursued a policy of non-violent civil resistance and began establishing a system of non-parallel institutions in the health care and education sectors." I quoted this ³⁶⁵³⁷ accurately from paragraph 88. So my question was whether this deliberate leaving of jobs was an integral part of this allegedly non-violent resistance.

JUDGE ROBINSON: He has answered it, so we can move on. He has already answered it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You have also mentioned that there in fact was violence there, too. Was there violence against Albanian teachers and assistant professors which was used in order to force them to leave their jobs or not, based on what you know?

A. I already answered that question partially. All of those who remained were subjected to various forms of pressure. They had to pay a portion of their salary, and this was mandatory. This was done every month. I witnessed this myself. And they were also subjected to various forms of pressure which was aimed at making them leave their jobs and transferring to parallel institutions.

Q. All right. Those who already transferred to parallel institutions, did they do that voluntarily or under pressure?

A. Some of them transferred voluntarily. However, most of them had to transfer under pressure.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Nice will no doubt about asking about this, but I might as well ask: To whom was it mandated that a portion of the salary had to be paid? You have made this allegation, but you haven't given any details. So I'm asking you. First, who subjected those who remained to various forms of ³⁶⁵³⁸ pressure; and secondly, to whom was a portion of the salary paid?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, it was paid to the leadership of the separatist movement, the separatist movement of Albanians. This movement for many years, for decades, was active not only in Kosovo and Metohija but also throughout other countries as well. They collected contributions in order to develop the separatist movement.

JUDGE ROBINSON: How did you acquire this information?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my clinic, every month when the salaries were paid out, a man would come, a man whom I didn't know, who made lists and collected money from the employees of my clinic, which was ears, nose and throat clinic. This was a rule that applied to all employees in the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija and also to private entrepreneurs and everybody who had an income.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Their departure from their jobs, you explained to us that they left under pressure exerted by the separatist movement. Did you see anybody leave their jobs under the pressure of authorities?

A. I have no such information. I didn't see any of such cases nor do I know of any such cases.

Q. The leaving of jobs and everything else you describe, did it create a picture, an impression that the human rights of Albanians were violated or denied to them?

A. Certainly. It was certainly that way, because this entire organisation was aimed at that, to portray themselves as victims and to show to the international public this alleged persecution of Albanians in ³⁶⁵³⁹ order to use it for their goals later on.

Q. All right. I've mentioned to you this when I quoted the paragraph where doctors, teachers are mentioned, and so on. Therefore, parallel institutions were established both in the health care and education sectors.

Do you know something about the creation of parallel institutions in the education sector as well?

A. Yes. The parallel institutions in education were established much more thoroughly and diligently than the ones in the health care sector. The reason for that is very simple; because of the numbers. There were many more people, and the youth had to be indoctrinated for the goals of the separatist movement.

In addition to that, the parallel institutions in education sidestepped the Republic of Serbia and its curricula. They introduced the curriculum of the Republic of Albania. And by establishing parallel institutions in education, they showed just what was the extent of their resistance in relation to the official system of Serbia.

Q. All right. In the education sector, where did they -- what did they emphasise especially?

A. They particularly emphasised geography, literature, and history.

Q. Why history?

A. Because by falsifying history, they wanted to show that they were in -- their ancestors were actually the Illyrians and that they were the oldest people inhabiting that area and that all other nations who arrived later had no right to Kosovo, no claim to the Kosovo land. ³⁶⁵⁴⁰

Q. What about geography?

A. Geography for the simple reason that they wanted to abolish the use of Serbian and Slav place names, and by doing so they wanted to show that they were the oldest people who arrived to Kosovo and that everybody else came later. The place names were especially named -- especially changed after the Second World War, and after the arrival of the UN forces to Kosovo and Metohija practically all Serb or Slav place names were abolished.

Let me give you just several examples. Srbica became Skenderaj; Glogova became Kastriot; Leposavac, where no Albanians lived ever, became Albanac; Vucitrn became Vushtrri, and so on. So not a single place name of Slav origin exists in Kosovo and Metohija. They have all been changed, then substituted with Albanian place names.

Q. What about literature?

JUDGE ROBINSON: The transcript says especially changed after the Second World War and after the arrival of the UN forces in Kosovo and Metohija all Serb or Slav place names were abolished. Was the change made after the Second World War or after the arrival of the UN forces or both?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for putting that question, Mr. Robinson.

After the Second World War there was a attempt to change place names and they did manage to change certain place names. They started from a thesis which was pursued by Enver Hodzic during his brief rule in Albania. He changed, especially in northern Albania, all Serbian place names. And there were many of them, there was a majority of them there. ³⁶⁵⁴¹ So he replaced them with Albanian place names and he -- he converted Christians, Orthodox Christians, to Catholics and to Muslims. There were attempts for many years to pursue the same policy in Kosovo and Metohija after the Second World War. I can quote several examples to you. Djeneral Jankovic was called Hani i Elezit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that. Now, what happened after the arrival of the UN forces?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the arrival of the UN forces, all Serb and Slav place names were completely abolished in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. These place names simply do not exist any more. Let me tell you, larger towns, such as Srbica, have been renamed. Srbica became Skenderaj. Glogovac became Kastriot; Leposavac became Albanac; Vucitrn became Vushtrri, and so on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You also mentioned literature. What can you tell us about the way that literature was taught? What was their emphasis there?

A. Through glorifying their historical heroes in their literature, they created -- they turned them into historical myths, and they used those myths to educates their youth and to instill national and separatist sentiments in them.

Q. All right. You told us that the parallel institutions in the education sector were more successful than parallel institutions in the health care sector, which is understandable to me because in the health care sector you need professionals, experts.

Therefore, tell me, please, in relation to that, what was the ³⁶⁵⁴² percentage of patients therefore - not the staff but, rather, the patients - in the health services with regard to their ethnic background, patients seeking medical assistance and treatment?

A. Throughout my career and throughout my life, I lived in Kosovo and Metohija, and that percentage of patients was always 19 -- 90 per cent of Albanians, 10 per cent of others. And that remained unchanged even after the establishment of the so-called parallel institutions in health care.

Q. So 90 per cent of those who needed health care were Albanians?

A. Yes. And even if they had attempted to receive appropriate medical assistance in parallel health care institutions, they failed and had to go to public health care institutions.

Q. I have to remind you to speak more slowly.

A. So 90 per cent of our patients were Albanians. Some of them had gone to private clinics and other private institutions but could not resolve their problems there and had to turn to public health care centres.

Q. Did you have the opportunity to see any case of discrimination or unfair treatment on the part of health care staff in Kosovo and Metohija vis-a-vis the Albanian patients who, as you said, made up 90 per cent of the total?

A. No. The Hippocratic Oath was strictly observed. I can say that in my long career, I was always deliberately more careful with Albanians than with Serbs precisely in order to avoid an error that could be misconstrued.

Q. Now, about these parallel institutions that you talked about in ^{36543 BLANK PAGE 36544} the education sector, in health care, what was the attitude of the authorities towards them? I mean state authorities, to be more precise.

A. The attitude of the state authorities was decent, correct. They kept trying, through legislation, to embrace them in the system of the state institutions to cover them.

Q. Was there an agreement, an attempt to normalise the situation, an agreement signed even by Rugova?

A. Yes, there were several attempts to normalise the situation. I think the most noteworthy one was in 1996 when a mixed Albanian-Serb commission was formed under the aegis of a Vatican led by Monsignor Doctor Vincenzo Paglia. The name of the organisation was Sant'Egidio. Measures were developed to normalise the situation, especially in university institutions. However, this remained fruitless because the Albanian side didn't do anything to actually implement it.

Q. Can you confirm that the state authorities put everything in place, made available buildings and facilities and everything that was necessary to implement this agreement?

A. Yes, I can confirm that. The Albanian side was given the building of the engineering faculty, among others, the most beautiful building that we have, the building of the law school, the building of the faculty of arts, the teachers training college. All this -- all these facilities were handed over to the Albanian side.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm sorry to interrupt you on a procedural matter, but in relation to the remarks that I made on behalf of the Chamber about time, let us try to begin with this witness whom you had ³⁶⁵⁴⁵ scheduled for six hours. I'd like you to try to complete the examination-in-chief within four hours. We can work until 2.00 today, and then you will try to finish by the end of the first session tomorrow, and the Prosecutor would also be kept within limits. But I am not placing a time limit on you because it was not the practice to place a time limit on examination-in-chief for the Prosecutor. But I'm really trying to assist you to use your time in the best way possible. So let us try and conclude this witness within four hours, and we work until 2.00 and -- well, I'm just understanding we can't work until 2.00 because one of our members has another judicial engagement but -- yes, we'll work until 2.00, and I'm encouraging you -- exhorting you to try to complete this witness by the end of the first session tomorrow, which would be four hours and 15 minutes.

MR. KAY: Can tab 4 be an exhibit?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Mr. Robinson. It is in my interest to use as little time as possible, because I want to bring as many witnesses as I can. It is definitely not in my interest to prolong the examination of any witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. To be as clear as possible, Mr. Andric, we have already mentioned these attempts by Albanian separatists, the constant efforts to attract the sympathies of the international public. I want to ask you about one scandal about a case and what you know about it. In spring 1993, certain media, including international media, were ³⁶⁵⁴⁶ flooded by news about alleged poisoning of students and pupils and children by some gas. This notorious scandal about the poisoning of children with gas that was topical in spring 1990.

A. Yes. I worked as a doctor, and I witnessed all this. In spring 1990, more precisely beginning with March and ending with June that year, the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija was flooded by some alleged poisoning of Albanian children and students. The allegation was that the authorities were behind this. I will explain what was going on, because I was in Pristina.

In most places around Pristina at the same time, about ten cars would set out driving the so-called victims of poisoning, and with the screeching of tyres and a lot of noise, they would stop in front of the Pristina clinical centre where medical teams would be waiting with stretchers. They would bring these so-called victims every day so that there would be hundreds of admissions per day in the health centres. And even serious patients were discharged in order to make room for these newly arrived.

Ludicrous situations were occurring. Blood drips and IV drips were placed in the pillow instead of the vein, and other ludicrous things were happening.

There were television crews and cameras present whose task was to show to the world this alleged suffering of the Albanian people in Kosovo. This was common throughout Kosovo and Metohija, but Pristina was the hardest hit.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have some footage to show, and I ³⁶⁵⁴⁷ will ask the AV booth to run it. It's under tab 5. This is just one clip that I would like to introduce through this witness, but I would like to point out this is only a brief segment of what was recorded, because a lot of this was happening during the war, and there was very little possibility to make recordings.

You have all been supplied with a translation of these video clips?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 5, transcript.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 5. And then clip by clip, you will find the translations of what is being said.

JUDGE KWON: So we have 18 segments in total.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All this is under tab 5, but we will go through them one by one, because this one refers to the poisoning scandal, and the others refer to the period of the war in Kosovo.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It's a shame, because the Oscars are being handed out tomorrow.

"Gashi says today that we see polymorphous symptoms today, a term that he himself is unable to translate adequately or be more specific, but I quote the therapy is well chosen. What remains unclear is what is a well-chosen therapy for a disease that remains unknown. "A reporter asks: Which therapy?

"Aljusi Gashi replies: The right therapy is the one that helps remove those symptoms, but I don't have it here. "[No interpretation]" ³⁶⁵⁴⁸

JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't get any --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't have any translation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if you didn't get the translation. I thought it was under this tab. The written translation is provided under this tab, and you heard that --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a translation into English of what these doctors were saying.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let us not waste time. I want to ask the witness for a comment. We saw in the beginning the patients running towards their beds. What was that all about?

A. It speaks of the gravity of poisoning. Those were young people who were completely healthy, who were brought to hospital to be portrayed as sick, and then they would walk along the corridors of the hospital, and then when a TV crew or somebody would arrive, they would run to their beds and make believe that they were poisoned.

Q. We saw them being urgently transported to the hospital en masse. Where were they allegedly poisoned? What were the allegations?

A. The allegation was that they were poisoned throughout schools in Kosovo and Metohija.

Q. Kosovo schools where there were only Serbs -- where there were Serbs and Albanians or only Albanians?

A. There were both Albanian and Serb children there.

Q. How come, then, that only Albanians were poisoned in the same ³⁶⁵⁴⁹ building?

A. Of course it was not possible, but it was necessary to demonise Serbia.

JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask, when they were brought to the hospital, all these thespians, these actors, were they examined by the doctors to determine whether they were in fact poisoned?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, Mr. Robinson. We examined them, we did laboratory and toxicological tests, we examined seriously every young man and woman until we had definitively proven that they were not ill. Even if they were not medically ill, we treated them as ill because they had agreed to be manipulated in that way.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And what did the tests show? Did you do the urine and blood tests?

A. Yes, we did everything to establish if there was any poisoning or not.

Q. In any of these hundreds of cases, was there any real poisoning established?

A. The numbers were not in the hundreds but in the thousands. Not in a single case was it proven that there was any poisoning.

Q. And in that entire scandal, did anybody die?

A. No. No one was even poisoned.

Q. Did anybody develop a disorder or disease that could later be treated? ³⁶⁵⁵⁰

A. No.

Q. So how did the medical staff in Kosovo and Metohija treat this monoethnic poisoning?

A. I will have to speak about the Serb and Albanian medical staff separately. Serb --

JUDGE BONOMY: Does it matter for this case how they were treated?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is important, Your Honour, Judge Bonomy. At least, you will see if you hear my answer. Serbs did their job professionally. As for the Albanian medical staff, I could divide them into three groups. The first group were organisers. There were few of them. The second, largest group were all of those who had agreed consciously to participate in this whole farce, trampling on their Hippocratic Oath and their professional duty, and the third group were those who offered passive or active resistance, but there were few of them.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Although there were few of them, as you say, do you know of any Albanian doctors or medical staff who resisted this farce, who tried to do something? Can you give us their names?

A. I know two Albanian professors. I don't know if it's a good idea to mention them here.

Q. We can go into private session for just two minutes, if you wanted to give us their names.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Why do you need their names?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that their names can be heard ^{36551 BLANK PAGE 36552} here and entered into the record to show that there were Albanian professors who condemned this whole scandal about the alleged poisoning in which no one died, no one fell ill, and all the laboratory tests failed to confirm a single claim of poisoning.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... allegation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is that there was constant talk of some sort of maltreatment of Albanians, about evil done by Serbs to Albanians, about the demonisation of Serbs in this manner, which was simply pure theatre and nothing else.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have the names, then, in private session.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, as this was a major scandal and was widely reported, both abroad and in our country, let me ask you specifically, did the federal institutions and the institutions of the Republic of Serbia take any action in connection with this scandal? ³⁶⁵⁵³

A. Yes. Very soon after the first cases of alleged poisoning were reported, a helicopter arrived from Belgrade, bringing a delegation including the director of the federal institution of health protection, Dr. Branko Dragas, and on behalf of the Ministry of Health of the Republic of Serbia, Professor Bozo Antonijevic, an expert on toxicology. They examined the case, saw what this was about, went back to Belgrade. They, of course, established that there was no poisoning, but in order to lend credence to all this, the Federal Secretariat for Health established an 11-member commission, including experts from clinical hospital centres in Ljubljana, Zagreb and Belgrade, and this commission submitted its report in early June to the health committee of the Federal Assembly. This report said that there was no poisoning and that not a single case of poisoning had been established.

Q. Very well. We have here in tab 6 a report, a newspaper report about the discussion conducted by the Executive Council Committee for Labour, Health, and Welfare. The title is "There was no poisoning." The Committee of the Executive Council --

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... to intervene, loath though I am to do it. This whole issue was originally raised by the accused in cross-examination of a witness, and I think I asked one question of a later witness about the same topic and I can't remember how it arose. It seems to me that it is inconceivable that this Trial Chamber will be able to make a final decision about whether thousands and thousands of people were masquerading as ill, and pretty unlikely if not inconceivable that the Trial Chamber will regard it as sufficiently ³⁶⁵⁵⁴ relevant to form an important part of its judgement, or any part of its judgement. Now, this report - I don't mind the Chamber reading it - but I wonder really how this report is really going to add to the material that the Chamber has to deal with.

JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, if I might speak on this, it would be helpful to have the official report, but I think more directly, Mr. Nice, if you make the allegations or the averments you make in paragraphs 87 and 88 of the Kosovo indictment, is it not inevitable that we will end up examining issues such as this? Which you may be right but if you are right it begs the question why they're in the indictment.

MR. NICE: They were in the indictment as background matters and it's a matter for the Chamber the degree to which it's proper to go into them in detail. They're there. I haven't objected. I don't necessarily object now, but I do raise as an issue, given the Chamber's earlier observations about the best use of time, whether this report, which is obviously being adduced in whatever format for the truth of its content, is going to be a material bit of evidence in this case.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic evidently attaches great forensic value to background matters.

But, Mr. Milosevic, this is a background matter, and you may not want to spend so much time on it. You have been dealing with this now for about half an hour, this single issue of the poisoning. I think you should move on to another -- move on to another matter. It has been sufficiently ventilated.

MR. KAY: Can tab 5.1 be an exhibit? ³⁶⁵⁵⁵

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would have completed this topic in a shorter time than it took to make this objection, because from this large article talking about the work of the federal, not the republican but the federal, institutions I just wanted to quote what Dr. Branko Pocek said. You can tell by his name that he's evidently not a Serb. And on the occasions of the findings of the commission, he said that "Ethical norms of the Hippocratic Oath have been trampled on in Kosovo because health workers have put themselves in the service of certain political goals."

It was clear, therefore, that this was a scam, that this was put up and the fact that several thousand people took part in it, in this stage-managed farce --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you and I'm requiring you to move on to another topic. The indictment will not stand or fall on the basis of this single allegation. Next topic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. Mr. Nice speaks of the general context, and it is only based on the background.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Just tell me this, please: Do you remember from this period of time that these official findings of experts - federal, republican and other experts on Kosovo and Metohija - were publicised in the foreign media in any way or were given nearly as much publicity as the story on the alleged poisonings? Do you remember that time?

A. Yes. Unfortunately, the official findings were never given any ³⁶⁵⁵⁶ significance in the media. This was never refuted in the media. Unfortunately, it was the first story about the poisoning that was left to stand and it was not correct.

Q. Do you recall any other examples of this kind of mass abuse for propaganda purposes from, for example, 1998, 1999?

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's -- I'm not allowing that. I'm not allowing that question. It has a leading element in it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Without any leading elements in my question, do you remember an event, let's just mention it very briefly and please make your answer brief, from 1989 concerning the so-called miner's strike in Stari Trg?

A. Yes. This was in February 1989, from the 28th of February. 1.300 Albanian miners went on strike. They remained in the pit and their demands were purely political. They wanted the replacement of three Albanian leaders, the federal, provincial, and city leaders who were pro-Yugoslav.

Q. I assume that in October 1998 you were the secretary for health?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall -- I'm referring to October, 1998 -- do you recall an event in the village of Resnik near Vucitrn where the population was exclusively Albanian? What happened there on the 29th of October, 1998?

A. The village of Resnik near Vucitrn is a village populated exclusively by Albanians, and in October on a field near the mosque, suddenly about 25.000 people gathered, mostly women, children, and elderly ³⁶⁵⁵⁷ men. They had been brought in for days from neighbouring areas, mostly from the areas of Vucitrn, Mitrovica, Srbica and Glogova. They were -- Srbica and Glogova. They were brought in by trucks and other vehicles and they asked that the High Commissioner for Refugees, Madam Sadako Ogata, address them personally. They said that the Serbian army and police were expelling them from their homes, persecuting them, and that they were living out in the open. Mrs. Ogata arrived. She addressed them briefly, and this was recorded by all the leading world media, by their cameras, and several minutes after Mrs. Sadako Ogata left the area, they peacefully went back to their homes, leaving behind only plastic bags and other litter.

Q. Therefore, 25.000 Albanian refugees were shown on the media, and after Mrs. Ogata left, they returned home and weren't there any more, only the following days. Is this what you're saying?

A. Yes. And there are many such examples.

Q. Dr. Andric, in what period were you regional secretary for health?

A. I was provincial secretary for health of Kosovo and Metohija from early October 1998 until March 2002 when the temporary provincial council stopped its work. It was disbanded.

Q. While performing this duty, did you meet people from the Verification Mission? From October 1998 throughout this time, the Verification Mission was present. Did you meet members and leaders of the Verification Mission of the OSCE?

A. Yes. During that period, late 1998, 1999, until the 29th of March, 1999, when the Verification Mission left Kosovo and Metohija, I met ³⁶⁵⁵⁸ many members of this OSCE mission.

Q. Yes. And did you have contacts with anyone from the medical sector of that mission, those dealing with health issues?

A. Yes. After the end of the Rambouillet negotiations and just before the Paris negotiations, I personally received the head of this section. It was the Finnish -- it was a Finnish doctor, I don't recall his name, and we spoke in my office in the provincial council.

Q. And what did he want to learn from you? What did he draw your attention to?

A. For the most part he wanted me to tell him about the way the health service in Kosovo and Metohija was organised and structured.

Q. Did you explain this to him?

A. Yes, briefly, to the extent he was interested in it.

Q. I assume that he then, as could be expected, made some comments or objections or gave you some suggestions. Do you recall that?

A. Yes. I remember well that his main objection was that it's too centralised and too connected to Belgrade, that it should be less centralised and less linked to Belgrade. He asked whether we needed any aid from the international community as regards health services.

Q. Did he in any way draw attention to any violations of human rights or improper behaviour by the authorities or the health institutions, health organs?

A. No. This was a very pleasant spontaneous conversation in which we discussed organisation. There were no objections apart from the one I mentioned. ^{36559 BLANK PAGE 36560}

Q. Were you aware of the number of humanitarian organisations from abroad on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in late 1998 and early 1999?

A. Yes. I was the provincial secretary for health and this was part of my job. On the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, just before the NATO aggression, there were 29 foreign humanitarian organisations.

Q. And what happened? Do you have anything to say about what they were doing, these humanitarian organisations, to what extent they cooperated with the health organs in Kosovo and Metohija of which you were at the head as the provincial secretary for health?

A. Yes. They had free access to the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija. They were able to reach every part of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. They gave quite a lot of assistance to the health institutions on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in terms of medicines and medical material and equipment, supplies, and they were carrying out their humanitarian mission.

Q. Very well. And what happened to these organisations on the eve of the NATO aggression?

A. When Walker's Kosovo Verification Mission left a week before the beginning of the NATO aggression, all these humanitarian organisations left the territory of Kosovo and Metohija; all of them.

Q. Did they take with them all their property when they were leaving? Did they take all their belongings?

A. No. They took some movable belongings but they left warehouses throughout the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. ³⁶⁵⁶¹

Q. And what happened to their warehouses? What did you find there?

A. Well, when the NATO aggression started, unknown perpetrators looted many of these and raided many of these warehouses. However, some of them were left, and we looked at what was inside. There was a warehouse belonging to an organisation called Handicap where, apart from medical supplies and medicines, I found many crutches, wheelchairs and such equipment. This would not have been surprising had these things not been present in impossibly large quantities. This was quite scary. This heralded war, actually.

Q. Did you have any contacts with the NGO Medecins sans Frontieres?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was your experience with this organisation?

A. Yes. They arrived on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in 1993. They worked without any hindrance or obstruction on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, and they helped quite a lot. I remember, for example, the waterworks in Vucitrn and they brought medicines and other equipment, but I learned from the field at one point that part of this humanitarian organisation, its individual members, were engaging in impermissible actions and that some of them had become the medical corps of the KLA, the so-called KLA.

In early 1999, they asked -- they applied to me to extend their permit because they had to extend their permit every three months.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We are at the time for the break. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m. ³⁶⁵⁶²

--- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, we discussed your contacts with the organisation Medecins sans Frontieres. Please take a look at tab 7. This is dated 4th of January, 1999. This is a statement for the public given by the provincial secretary of health, Dr. Vukasin Andric. In order not to waste time, let us cover this briefly.

You gave a statement for the public and it is stated here that the Doctors Without Borders abused their white coats when they accepted to smuggle and hide weapons for Albanian terrorists. This is at the end of the first paragraph of your statement. Not only that, our public and the entire world was informed that one of their teams was uncovered using a frequency solely reserved for communication by members of the Ministry of the Interior.

And then it says that the monitors are using a humane and noble idea in order to directly or indirectly assist terrorists and terrorism. And then in the last paragraph, that such a conduct contributes to the deterioration of the humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija. Therefore, you as the health secretary stated this with respect to the conduct of the Doctors Without Borders, and you had information when you made this statement. Is that right or not?

A. Yes.

Q. The cooperation with Doctors Without Borders, did you discuss it with the chief of their office, Mr. Boucher? ³⁶⁵⁶³

A. Yes.

Q. Tab 8, does it contain a record from the meeting with Boucher?

A. Yes.

Q. It is quite long. The Serbian version is. It has three pages. The English translation has two pages but that is irrelevant. I will stick to the Serbian text. You say here that Vukasin Andric explained that he received information about the Doctors Without Borders from several sources, from several people that he contacted in the field. This is in the third paragraph. And they included people from all ethnic groups, mostly from Albanians, or the majority were Albanians. Some sources included journalists and representatives of official organs. And then in the next paragraph it says it doesn't matter how and when somebody was caught with weapons but that the assistance is not provided to both sides, and then you explain that the idea of humanitarian organisation is not to distinguish among the people of different religions or ethnic backgrounds. So you emphasised this.

Did you have any reason to believe that they were insisting on assisting only Albanians and not the other side, the non-Albanian population?

A. Yes, partially. What I said was that they were helping the health institutions in the area of Kosovo and Metohija. We had no complaints there. However, what was impossible to understand was that a humanitarian organisation which comes to a situation -- to a territory which is multi-ethnic, which contains several ethnic communities, employs, in the course of six years, only members of one ethnic community. This means ³⁶⁵⁶⁴ that Doctors Without Borders, in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, employed solely Albanians regardless of whether they were doctors, nurses, staff, general staff or not. All of them were Albanians, exclusively Albanians. The staff of Doctors Without Borders lived in houses and apartments owned exclusively by Albanians, which you will agree with me caused suspicion among Serbs.

Q. On page 2 in paragraph two from the bottom you say that Dr. Andric explained that this did not have to be a political discussion, only agreements on specific activities, and then Boucher, in the following passage, says that they wanted to cooperate with both sides, they wanted to go to Serbian villages too but encountered animosity. So what was this all about? With did they encounter animosity in Serbian villages?

A. I don't think that they encountered animosity in Serbian villages at all. It's simply that the Serbs knew -- you know how it was. When the situation is tense and a doctor comes from Doctors Without Borders and brings with him an Albanian driver, an Albanian nurse, and so on, this automatically creates mistrust. And knowing what was done until then, people simply did not trust that organisation.

Q. At the end of this record of yours, you say that one Albanian doctor was killed in Pec in the most awful way because he did not want to accept the invitation extended to him by the terrorists to go and work for Doctors Without Borders. So you claim that he was killed because of that. And then Boucher replies to you, in the penultimate paragraph, that he heard about the case but had no contacts with that person. He said that he had no influence over the media or politics and that's why he wanted to ³⁶⁵⁶⁵ explain what they were really doing and what they should cooperate more closely.

A. This involved Dr. Dzevad Gashi, who remained working in the Serbian health care system. That night when he was killed, and he was killed several days before my meeting with Mr. Boucher, which took place on the 22nd of January, 1999 - I remember this well - this doctor went to his work and was killed by the terrorists of the so-called KLA. His parents stated to the television that several days before he was killed, members of the so-called KLA had come and tried to pressure him into leaving his job with the Serb republic institutions and go to work for the Doctors Without Borders.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I ask that this exhibit be tendered into evidence, this record reflecting the conversation he held -- he had with Mr. Boucher. This is tab 8.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. KAY: Tab 7 was referred to as well as part of it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: 7 and 8, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you. Dr. Andric, where were you at the time when the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia started; and did you hold any other positions or offices during the NATO aggression?

A. When the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia started, I was in Pristina preparing, together with my team, the work of health services which were supposed to adapt to the -- to the war conditions, and in addition to being the provincial health secretary, I was also president of ³⁶⁵⁶⁶ the staff of humanitarian issues and also member of the civilian protection staff and member of the staff for coordinating between civilian authorities, army, and the MUP.

Q. Very well. Thank you. You mentioned several organs just now. Please tell us something about the composition of these organs. When I say "the composition," what I have in mind is both professional background of its members and ethnic background.

A. The composition was quite diverse. People from various professional backgrounds were involved and also people from various ethnic communities.

Q. Very well. Now, let us please look at tab 9, which is a decision appointing you. This is a form. The decision appointing you president of the staff on humanitarian issues and assistance to the displaced persons returning to their homes.

And then in the statement of reasons, it is stated that the staff has to coordinate the activities pursuant to the plan and programme of work and activities. There is a translation into English. And then it says that they are duty-bound to pay special attention to ensuring that there are favourable conditions for housing civilian population, assisting economic organisations, especially health care organs, to ensure law and order, protect property, prevent any action taken against the liberty of citizens, and then this last bit is covered by the seal, to facilitate the return of displaced persons to their homes.

Therefore, what can you tell us about the work of these organs, the work in which you participated? Did your work involve all of these ^{36567 BLANK PAGE 36568} activities described here as the activities undertaken by the staff?

A. Yes. Our duty was to help civilian population, especially those who were at risk, but not only those who were in danger or at risk but everybody who lived in that territory. All of them needed to receive basic necessities.

Q. What were your specific tasks? Just give us the main ones. What were your main duties?

A. For example, we dealt with ensuring that there was clean water, also protection of environmental area, provision of medical assistance, ensuring that there was food for people who lacked food. We were also involved in removing the consequences of NATO bombing. Where there were dead people or casualties, we ensured that action was taken and then we also undertook sanitisation of the terrain.

Q. Mr. Andric, I made a mistake. I read out the document under tab 10 rather than the document under tab 9. So let us go back to tab 9, which is the decision - please take a look at the document in tab 9 - establishing the staff for humanitarian issues which is going to be composed of the following persons, and then Vukasin Andric is the chairman; Veljko Odalovic, member; Zejnelabidin Kurejs, member; Selim Gudjufi, member; Faik Jashari, member; and then Mihajlo Nedic, member. And then the document goes on to explain the duties of the staff. So please tell us, the members of the staff, what was their ethnicity? There was a total of six of them.

A. There were Serbs, Turks, Albanians, and a Montenegrin there.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. This is tab 9. I would ³⁶⁵⁶⁹ like this decision, which has a registration number and --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- is dated April 1999, as well as tab 10, which I have already covered, be tendered into evidence. Tab 10 pertains --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to the appointment of this witness. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, before the bombing started, did the residents leave Pristina and other cities as well as the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in general?

A. No. Before the NATO aggression started, the movement of the population was a regular one. Regular life was going on.

Q. What about after the bombing started?

A. After the bombing started, the very first day, and the bombing started in the evening of the 24th of March, so already on the next day, on the 25th of March, I noticed groups of people in Pristina leaving the town.

Q. All right. Who was leaving town? When I say "who," I'm referring to the ethnicity of the people leaving town.

A. Everybody was leaving town. That means Albanians, Serbs, Roma; everybody living there. The -- the rule that applied was that everybody was leaving town.

Q. So you were in Pristina then. ³⁶⁵⁷⁰

A. Yes.

Q. And did the number of people leaving Pristina increase in time?

A. Yes. With the growing intensity of the NATO aggression, the number of people leaving Pristina and Kosovo and Metohija in general increased as well. The number was especially high between the 1st and the 15th of April, and especially high between the 6th and the 9th of April -- or the 1st and the 6th of April, 1999.

Q. So with the increase in intensity of the bombing, as far as I understand, the number of the people leaving increased as well.

A. Yes. That area was subjected to especially intensive bombing. It seemed to us sometimes that it went on without stopping for 24 hours; incessantly.

Q. Do you know, where did the people leaving town generally go? And I'm referring now to Albanians and Serbs and Montenegrins, because you told us that everybody was leaving town.

A. Albanians mostly went towards Macedonia, Albania, and a smaller number of them towards Montenegro. Serbs mostly went towards central Serbia, and other non-Albanians either towards central Serbia or Montenegro. I remember that the Turks went to Turkey en masse.

Q. During NATO bombing, during NATO aggression, the health professionals working in health institutions, in view of what you did and what other state organs did, can you tell us whether you were able to work? Were the health professionals able to work?

A. Yes. On the 25th of March, in the morning, I as provisional secretary of health issued an order addressed to the heads of all health ³⁶⁵⁷¹ institutions in Kosovo and Metohija to ensure that all health professionals and workers continued their work and to ensure safety to those people who believed that they were endangered or that their families were endangered and to provide housing to them within the facilities of health institutions.

Q. Was that order complied with?

A. This order pertaining to the management of health institution was complied with fully.

Q. Under tab 11 we have some information regarding health care staff and professionals of Albanian ethnicity who remained, continued in their jobs in the hospital in Djakovica even after the beginning of the NATO aggression. Please look at tab 11. Those are Albanians, doctors who continued in their jobs in Djakovica city hospital after the beginning of the NATO aggression. Did you provide this list?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you make note of any incident that would indicate that these doctors suffered from any discrimination or any risk in their jobs?

A. From what I know, they didn't. There were no such cases. There were cases, for instance, in the health care centres of Prizren and Djakovica. After the order that I issued, Albanian doctors left these health centres. Something similar happened in Gnjilane as well. In Djakovica, 95 per cent of the health care staff was Albanian, and almost all of them continued in their jobs until the end of the war.

Q. Dr. Andric, during the NATO aggression, did you move around the territory of Kosovo and Metohija? ³⁶⁵⁷²

A. Yes, every day. It was my job.

Q. Did you come in contact with Albanians who were leaving? Let us leave aside the Serbs for the moment. Did you come in contact with the Albanians who were leaving, and was your service active on the ground?

A. Every day I would come in contact with hundreds of Albanians, and our services were on the ground on a daily basis, extending assistance.

Q. Was the work of medical teams especially intensive in some particularly vulnerable areas?

A. Yes. We had mobile medical teams, sometimes more, sometimes less, between five and ten, who worked on the border with Macedonia and near the border in the vicinity of Prizren.

Q. Since you were on the ground and organising these medical teams that were extending assistance, can you tell me about the movement of the columns of Albanians leaving from -- leaving Kosovo and Metohija? Did any authorities in Serbia or in Kosovo force them to leave?

A. No. They were leaving of their own accord, using their own vehicles. They travelled even in horse-drawn carts.

Q. Did you personally talk to these Albanians who were leaving the country?

A. I did talk to them, dozens of them, every day.

Q. When you say that you spoke to a lot of them, did you perhaps know personally some of them? What was the gist of your exchange?

A. I remember, for instance, a butcher from Pristina who asked me to bring diapers for his baby.

Q. So what did you tell them when you spoke to them? You talked to a ³⁶⁵⁷³ large number of people leaving.

A. I was trying to convince them not to leave, to return to their homes. I was telling them that our army and our police would guarantee their safety and security.

Q. And what did they say in reply? Did they do as you said or not?

A. Most of them did not listen to me. Some of them said they were going to take their families away from danger and then return, but most of them didn't return.

Q. Did some of them take your advice?

A. Very few, but some of them did. But some of those who returned I met later, after the international forces came in, and they thanked me for my advice. They told me that everyone should have stayed.

Q. In your opinion, why were they leaving, the Albanians?

A. In my opinion, the main reason was the beginning of the NATO aggression and the fear of NATO bombs. Another thing is that the Albanian population was under humungous pressure from the separatist movement, or the terrorist movement of the KLA to leave Kosovo. The KLA gave them guarantees, it seems, that they would return soon.

Q. Were you extending any humanitarian assistance to those Albanians in addition to the medical assistance that you mentioned already? Did you give them any humanitarian aid?

A. Certainly. Every day we would visit those columns of fleeing people to bring them food, diapers, milk for children. We would even provide transportation for the infirm. We would take them to the clinical centre. ³⁶⁵⁷⁴

JUDGE ROBINSON: Professor, are you aware of the reason for the KLA, as you say, pressuring the Albanians to leave Kosovo?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only assume what the reason was. Their aim was to empty the territory of Kosovo from Albanians and portray that as ethnic cleansing. What I mean is that was the objective of those who were trying to persuade the population to leave. But in addition to that, there were people simply fleeing the bombing.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You told us of your experience with people you met at the border.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like some footage shown from tab 5. 5.2 more precisely.

MR. KAY: Tab 11 to be an exhibit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that if the sound is going to be in Albanian, we do not have an Albanian interpreter in the English booth, so it's probably the Albanian booth who is going to read the English translation provided.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I note that. Let us see what happens. You saw that, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to see it now.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In Kosovo and Metohija, at the moment when some Albanians, hundred of thousands of Albanians are leaving Kosovo and Metohija, mainly Pristina, they want to pass over to the neighbouring Macedonia. Among them there are women, children, and elderly ^{36575 BLANK PAGE 36576} people who seem tired and worn out. So only some tens of cars and hundreds of people waiting to pass over to Macedonia. As can be seen, there is no mention of tens of thousands of Albanians who wish to cross -- to leave Metohija and Kosovo, as some Western media are claiming. Among the people who, as they say, are afraid of the NATO aggression and the situation created after the attack have abandoned their homes. "Mobile ambulances were there to help them, led by Dr. Andric. These people are here to help them medical assistance to all those who need it. Among them there are representatives of the Ministry of Interior of Serbia who asked them to return to their homes because they can guarantee them full security.

"Our camera shot the return of some 50 cars who, from the border checkpoint to Macedonia, pass on to Kacanik and Pristina. Our team visited the cross-border point of Macedonia -- of Yugoslavia with Albania. The situation is the same. The only difference is that the transportation of refugees is mainly through tractors. Our medical team of Red Cross of Kosovo and Metohija was there. The representatives of the Serbian Ministry of Interior are trying hard to persuade people to return back to their homes.

"On the way to Pristina, we filmed that some of these people returned home. Otherwise, last night we saw about 500 cars, tractors, which were going in the direction of Pristina at the central part of Kosovo and Metohija."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. That's it.

JUDGE BONOMY: Do we have a date for that broadcast? ³⁶⁵⁷⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened on the 4th, 5th, and 6th April, 1999. This particular footage is from the 4th of April from the border crossing at Djeneral Jankovic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. At the beginning of this footage we were able to see you, Dr. Andric.

A. Yes.

Q. You were talking to the refugees on the spot. One can see that the broadcast is in the Albanian language.

A. Correct.

Q. Was this a television programme intended for Albanians because it was broadcast in Albanian?

A. Yes. There is a daily programme -- there was a daily programme in Albanian, and this was part of it.

Q. Was this broadcast on the Albanian TV programme in order to encourage people, Albanians, to stay and not leave their homes?

A. The aim was to inform the entire population, including Albanians, as to what exactly was happening on the ground.

Q. Nevertheless, as you said, a large number chose to leave Kosovo, whereas a smaller part took your advice and returned home. As I see in this footage, the emphasis is placed on the people who took your advice and were persuaded also by representatives of the MUP and chose to return to their homes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like this contribution to be tendered into evidence as well. ³⁶⁵⁷⁸

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, from your experience, from what you were able to see with your own eyes, and from what you were able to learn, were civilian facilities targeted during the bombing?

A. Yes. Most cities and towns were bombed daily, and many civilian targets were damaged and destroyed.

Q. When you say "many civilian targets," what exactly do you mean? Let us take Pristina or Djakovica, for example, or any other town in Kosovo. Is there anything in particular you remember?

A. I can enumerate the targets that were hit in individual towns. In Pristina, for example, the centre of the town and the main post office, the main bus terminal, the Serbian Orthodox cemetery, the administrative building of the Jugopetrol company and their warehouse, the warehouse of the oil company Jugopetrol where a huge environmental catastrophe was caused. Then a large warehouse of commodities that spread over five hectares was hit, destroying a huge amount of goods. The deputies club in --

Q. Was the centre of Pristina bombed?

A. Yes. I said that at the beginning. The old town, the centre of Pristina, including the main post office.

Q. That will be enough.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the next video clip shown. It will illustrate our latest point.

[Videotape played] ³⁶⁵⁷⁹

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It coincides with --" the Albanian interpreter notes that he can't hear the video when he is speaking on the mike.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not getting any translation.

THE INTERPRETER: Again the Albanian interpreters note that the moment we open the mike, we cannot hear the video feed.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is the tail end of the previous video clip that hadn't ended. There were video clips 2 and 3 depicting departures from Kosovo, the presence of Mr. Andric there and his activity and the activities of other representatives of the authorities, and that was broadcast in the Albanian language in order to encourage civilians to not leave their homes, or return to their homes. And the next clip which I wanted to show is number 4, relates to the destruction that we have just heard described from Mr. Andric. That was just the tail end of the previous clip we saw.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. So we are now moving to 5.4.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We returned about 500 automobiles and lorries who returned towards Pristina and the central part of Pristina and Metohija."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have seen this. That's not what I meant.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The -- no, we have seen nothing. No, we didn't see. ³⁶⁵⁸⁰ "We came from Mitrovica. The -- we came -- we came from -- all the way from Mitrovica. Nobody ever touched us. No one said a word. "I am from Gjakove. I came from Gjakove. The parties are not in conflict with each other. That's all I wanted to say. "Have you seen anything?

"No, nothing of the sort. No, nothing. "Who do you fear?

"We fear the bombardment and the conflict. It's the conflict of the two parties --"

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was in tab 5.3, and the translation of what the people at the border are saying is in 5.3. Now I ask that tab 5.4 be played.

MR. NICE: Before we move on from tab 5.3, one is bound to observe that, apart from general problems with the translation, no doubt reflecting the quality of the audio, at 6/10 was an interpretation or something said that was totally reversed from what's here in the transcript. Favourable to the accused, I would have thought, because it seems to say "I come from Djakovica" - I think this is what I heard - and it seems to say the sides are fighting but the way I heard it was no one was fighting.

Can I suggest that perhaps if these clips are going to be admitted some steps be taken to tidy up the transcripts because we don't want to proceed on a false understanding.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we are just going to ask the ³⁶⁵⁸¹ interpreter to listen to this particular part again, because you are right. I did hear what you said. So let us have it clarified. Have that tape replayed.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson. My transcript, which I have before me now in the Serbian language, I don't speak Albanian, but the way it's been translated, this woman says, "I have arrived from Djakovica. The sides are fighting. I am not involved with them in any way. I just want to get away until the situation calms down. When things calm down, we will live together again." And then the reporter says, "Did you face any obstacles, hindrances, problems during your journey?" And she says, "No, none at all."

This is what it says here. It doesn't say what Mr. Nice said, "The sides are fighting."

JUDGE KWON: But the Albanian interpreter in the booth translated it a bit differently. That is why we are asking some clarification.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We heard the same thing as Mr. Nice. But there is another way that we could deal with it. We could have a translation done.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Robinson, sir, I heard the sound. I speak Albanian quite well. When this woman is speaking of the NATO bombing, the interpreter said "the sides in the conflict." He's not saying NATO. The woman is being asked about NATO and the interpreter is again saying "the sides in the conflict."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Andric speaks Albanian, so it isn't hard for him to check that. ³⁶⁵⁸²

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed. Let us proceed.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have the tape played again and have it interpreted.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 5.3.

JUDGE ROBINSON: 5.3. Let's play it again. I don't know whether that part alone can be played. It's 6/10, 6/10, the Albanian woman speaking.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Everybody is afraid of the NATO bombing, all the world. I have come from Mitrovica. Nobody said anything to us. I have seen some 20 buses with people.

"I come from Gjakove, because the sides are -- are in a conflict between them. I have no business with them, that's why I had to leave. No, nobody said anything to us. Nobody prevented us."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop the tape. That clarifies it. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, at the beginning of this clip, the first man says, as far as I can see from the transcript, "We are going to Albania. We are afraid." The journalists ask, "Who are you afraid of?" And he says, "Of the shelling, because of the NATO shelling." The second Albanian man intervenes, he says, "We're afraid of the bombing, of the shelling. We're very afraid. Because of the situation, we're going to Albania." The reporter says, "Have you come across any obstacles in your journey here?" ^{36583 BLANK PAGE 36584} And the second Albanian man says, "No, a little here and there, generally speaking no," and so on.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What is shown here, does this accord with your knowledge, Mr. Andric, as to the reasons for people fleeing Kosovo, and what was the attitude of the authorities toward them?

A. Precisely so. This is what I said before. Most of them said they were fleeing because they were afraid of the NATO bombing, and also they said they had had no problems with the authorities along the way or even before they set out.

Q. Before that, I asked you about the bombing of towns in Kosovo and Metohija. Now I ask that tab 5.4 be played, and I will ask you to explain.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I was asleep. I was asleep, and I heard a sound and then a shell fell. Then a burst of gunfire and I tried to get out. A board fell on me. When I moved it, my wife asked me if I was alive. I said I was, but I couldn't move. There was mortar all over the children, there were bricks everywhere, and it was very difficult to remove all this. And then I went to save the geese, Bosko and Jela. "It's just refugees who live in this village?

"Yes, just refugees from Krajina. "How many people, approximately? ³⁶⁵⁸⁵ "About 100 or 120, two or three more or less.

"Did you hear several explosions or just one? "I heard a round. There were maybe ten bursts. Suddenly there was an explosion and everything fell on top of me. There was terrible noise everywhere. It was all over in a couple of seconds. I could hear it falling on us. And then we started moaning.

"Were there many wounded or killed? "Yes, there are two or three bodies, two of women and two men. I don't know of anything else.

"There were people who are wounded. My husband was wounded. My son was wounded."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, this is a clip of the refugee centre that was bombed.

A. Yes.

Q. What did you know about it?

A. This is a refugee centre called Meja. It had 26 houses that had been constructed for Serbs expelled from the Republic of Croatia. In early May 1999 NATO shelled that settlement, that centre, and four persons were killed, several dozen were wounded, the Volarevic brothers from Benkovci and the Ilkic [phoen] mother and daughter from Knin were killed as far as I can recall.

Q. Were there any military facilities nearby?

A. No. This was simply a refugee centre for refugees from Croatia.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this clip into evidence and ask that tab 5.5 be played. ³⁶⁵⁸⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. KAY: Tab 5.3 as an exhibit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a date for this incident? Professor, do you have the date for this?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it was the 3rd of May or the 5th of May. I'm not absolutely sure, but it was in early May 1999.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the centre of Pristina.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the next clip. Could you stop it please? Wait a little.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In tab 5.5, when I viewed it in prison with you, I had the impression you could also see residential buildings that had been destroyed. Was this in another tab or did this somehow go missing from this tab?

A. Well, this is the shortest tab.

Q. Can you explain what this is about?

A. This is part of the very centre of Pristina, which was destroyed by NATO bombing in the night between the 6th and 7th of April, 1999, or to be more precise, on the 7th of April, early in the morning, at ten past one a.m. The very centre of Pristina was bombed and two streets, Njegoseva and Zanatska street were razed to the ground; all the ³⁶⁵⁸⁷ residential buildings there, the main post office was severely damaged, and in this attack by the NATO Air Force, 16 citizens were killed and dozens were wounded.

Q. Very well. You went to the spot at that time; is this correct?

A. Yes. As I live very close to that part of the town, I went with my son and his friends to the scene of these events, hoping to help those who had been injured.

Q. Did you know anyone who was killed at the time?

A. Yes. My mother-in-law was killed in her own house.

Q. Was her residential building destroyed?

A. Yes, completely, as were all the other residential buildings in those two streets, Zanatska street and Njegoseva street.

Q. Yes. Your mother-in-law was killed. Her house was destroyed. What was her name?

A. Zlatinka Rankovic.

Q. And the houses of some other people were also destroyed. Do you know the names of other people whose houses were hit and who were killed? You said that 16 people were killed?

A. Yes. I remember a Turkish family. Mesut Gashi was a neighbour of my mother-in-law's, and he remained buried under the rubble of his house with four children and his mother and his wife. That house caught fire, and through superhuman efforts we managed to save his mother and the youngest child. He, with his wife and three daughters, although he was alive and helping, they burnt in that house. They were burnt to death.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the next video ³⁶⁵⁸⁸ clip. And I tender this one into evidence.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Previously -- very well, let's see this.

[Videotape played]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 5.7. Meja and Bistrazin near Djakovica.

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I came from Krushe. When we arrived in Krushe a plane bombed us but didn't hit us. It hit the ground on the other side. When we reached this place, the bomb fell on the ground. We reached this place, we were here with the tractor. My daughter died. She was 22 years old. Was hit on the arm and in the ear. There were some wounded children, wounded women, and four men who were killed. They were hit in their legs. And then the truck came. I stayed with my daughter-in-law and three small children here to wait for my neighbours. They still haven't arrived from Djakovica in the tractor. We have no transport, and we have small children. My head was injured, and it's hard for me to walk.

"And how many people are dead? "About ten, including children, men, my daughter and the women. Two women from the village of Smonica were killed on a tractor and their three sons, young quite also. And two men, Ferat Sejda from Kosara and Imer Shabani from Batusa were also killed. I know that because I was here, and there are many injured truckloads. ³⁶⁵⁸⁹ "How many shells were fired at you?

"Three from over there. See the asphalt road where it is damaged? And then over on that side. I stayed here.

"Who was shooting at you? "A plane.

"Do you know whose planes? "NATO's. There were many planes in the air."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Dr. Andric, this was the footage under tab 5.7.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, you have the transcript of the words uttered by the Albanian man. You have it in English. This is the place called Bistrazin.

Did they ever establish the total number of casualties? What happened there?

A. NATO planes bombed a column of internally displaced Albanians who were on their way home, starting at 2.00 p.m. on the 14th of April, 1999. Throughout the following hour they bombed them on several occasions.

Q. Did you go to the site?

A. I was at the site 15 minutes before the bombing started.

Q. Where did you go from there?

A. I went to Prizren, because I had to get three buses in order to transport the people with whom I had talked and had convinced them to go back to their homes.

Q. And while you went to Prizren, the column was bombed?

A. Yes. When I arrived at Prizren, the column was bombed. ³⁶⁵⁹⁰

Q. What did you establish?

A. The health teams from Djakovica and Prizren went to the site immediately. In that place called Meja and the place called Bistrazin, 87 civilians were killed on the spot, and 28 were killed either during the transport or in the hospitals in Djakovica and Prizren. Over 100 civilians were injured.

Q. These were all Albanians in that column, the people returning or were they leaving Kosovo?

A. Some of them were on their way to Albania, and some were on their way back home, and these are precisely the people that I was supposed to transport in the buses. Most of them did not have any transportation and I was supposed to ensure bus transportation for them to their homes. Some people were in their tractors on their way to Albania, and when the first bomb fell, they returned to Djakovica.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I apologise, but there's a problem with tab 5. I remember the houses that were destroyed. There's also tab 5.6, which was provided in a CD format, but in addition to that I have photographs of the houses that had been destroyed and that Dr. Andric spoke about that, in the centre of Pristina. So I ask that they be placed on the ELMO. These are the photographs under tab 5.6. As far as I understood it, the technical booth has these photographs in a CD format.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let them be placed on the ELMO.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, please. I think that Dr. Andric has these photographs, so he can place his photographs on the ^{36591 BLANK PAGE 36592} ELMO. His photographs are better than mine because they're in colour and mine are black and white.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These are the photographs of the post office destroyed in Pristina. Behind that you can see the bank building, and next to it is the building in which my mother-in-law was killed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Could you please show us the house of your mother-in-law.

A. Here it is.

Q. What can we see in the next photograph?

A. The next photograph is quite similar. It depicts the post office and the area that was destroyed.

Q. Very well.

A. And now the third photograph, which also shows the destroyed residential buildings.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I ask that tab 5.6 be exhibited as well, including tab 5.7, which we just saw.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 5.6, yes. And tab 5.7, yes. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The footage that we saw under tab 5.7 showing how the column of Albanian refugees was targeted, you told us that there were 105 dead persons.

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. You mentioned Djakovica and the Djakovica hospital where the Albanian doctors remained working until the end of the war. Was ³⁶⁵⁹³ the hospital damaged during the NATO aggression?

A. Yes. During the NATO aggression the hospital was damaged four times.

Q. What was the extent of the damage? Was it possible to use the building or was perhaps some part of the building uninhabitable?

A. Yes. A part of it was uninhabitable. The operation theatre, the surgical theatre could not be used.

Q. As far as I understood it, it wasn't a direct hit. The area next to the hospital was hit.

A. Yes. It wasn't hit directly, but it was damaged four times because next to it was the barracks that had been deserted four years before the war, and that was actually the target.

Q. All right. During the aggression, did you go to Djakovica; and if so, what did you do there?

A. Yes. I went to Djakovica several times. I remember the 14th of April, which is precisely the day when the column of refugees in Bistrazin was hit. I went to Djakovica because I wanted to visit the hospital and visit the patients.

Q. Do you remember any specifics about that visit?

A. Yes. I remember talking to Albanian doctors. There were mostly Albanian doctors there. As I told you, 95 per cent of the employees there were Albanians. I remember that out of 13 wards, only seven were in operation. And on at that day, the 14th of April, 1999, the hospital had 157 patients.

Q. And then after that you went to Prizren? ³⁶⁵⁹⁴

A. Yes. I went to Prizren to get the buses.

Q. And then you told us what happened afterwards. And immediately after that, this event took place, the bombing of the refugee column in the course of which 105 civilians were killed.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us see the next clip which deals with the Djakovica hospital, and it's under tab 5.8.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stay quiet. Stay quiet. Don't move. It's okay. It's okay.

"Djakovica municipality. "Nearly all of your children who came with you were injured. "Yes, that's right. My relatives have been wounded or killed. My wife's sister, who was 22, died now and she left behind a young son. My five sons are here. All of them have been wounded. We noticed the round. We were lucky. When we came to Pec, I don't know how many bombs fell. In two tractors five people were killed. They're all here. "All in one place.

"Yes, just in one place, in Pec, where the brick factory is or whatever it's called.

"Are your children seriously injured? "The youngest one was wounded in the chest and legs and also there is a wound between his shoulders, a serious wound. And then two sons, then there's a person there hit, injured in the head, and a woman with an injury on her neck.

"What did the doctors say? ³⁶⁵⁹⁵ "The doctors helped a lot. They helped a lot certainly. "They say that the United States wants to protect the Albanian people. Is that how they're protecting the women and the children? "Yes. You can see it for yourself.

"They shoot two or three times and then they hit me on the arm. There was a neighbour next to me came and drove me here in his car. The others stayed there, and the others, the police went and brought them here."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the next clip.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. Now, let us stop the tape.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask that tab 5.8, depicting the situation in the Djakovica hospital, also be exhibited.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Under tab 5.9, you will see that the document there is translated into English. These are two written statements given by Cuni Zoja, the first one, and the second one was given by Sulja Ljabinot. Yes. I apologise, I misread the last name.

MR. NICE: For good order and lest it be thought that I am agreeing for all later witnesses to a course of action being taken with respect of this witness, statements of this kind, witness statements, would normally have to be either admitted under 92 bis or 89(F), otherwise they would be inadmissible. Now, the accused might usefully remind himself that there are provisions for making material like this available ³⁶⁵⁹⁶ through the Rules of the Court. I'm anxious to take no time with any technical objection today -- not technical objection, with any objection today, and would ask that for the time being these are marked for identification only and their status reviewed at the end of all the evidence. I don't -- I don't resist their being read since they've now been made available to you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What you're saying is that the witness should be called, or 92 bis or --

MR. NICE: At the moment I don't. I simply say let's at least recognise that what's happening here is well outside our normal Rules of Procedure. If the Chamber de bene esse wishes to read these statements, I'm not going to stand in the way by any form of objection, but can we put back to the end of the evidence of this witness the question whether they stand marked for identification or whether they are produced. I have a reason for doing that.

JUDGE KWON: So you're saying you will review the status at the end of the day and consider whether you agree with it or not.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We won't admit it now. Mr. Milosevic --

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before you rule on Mr. Nice's objection, let me tell you that these statements, as you can see from them, are dealing with precisely that day, the 14th of April, ³⁶⁵⁹⁷ 1999. And the witness who is before us now was on site. We saw the footage, we saw the hospital, and the witness obtained the statements which describe the events of that date. So this is not something that is not directly linked to the evidence of this witness. On the contrary, it is directly linked because he was there on that day.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We acknowledge the linkage. It's just the question of admission. But what Mr. Nice was referring to were the modalities open to you under the Rules of Evidence, and you might consider utilising those modalities for statements of this kind. We will come back to this later. It's now 2.00, when we said we would break. We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 a.m.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of

February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.