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Tuesday, 26 April 2005

[Open session]

[The witness entered court]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- There is a technical problem. Let's try again. Yes.

Mr. Milosevic, to continue with your examination-in-chief.

WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jasovic.

A. Good morning, Mr. President.

Q. Yesterday, just before we adjourned, I asked you to take a look at tab 1.54. I hope you can find it now. Have you found it?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Could you please take a look and tell us, what did this person giving a statement say regarding the events in Racak? I'd just like to quote a portion to you, a portion from this document. First of all, please tell us, is this a statement that you yourself took, you and your colleague Darko Amanovic?

A. Yes, that's correct. I can confirm the authenticity of this document because the document was signed by the person interviewed as well as by myself and colleague Darko Amanovic from the state security service. ³⁸⁷⁵⁹

Q. Very well. Please take a look at the beginning of the statement where it says: "I can state that I live in Racak village, Stimlje municipality, and that when the fighting broke out between members of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia and members of the KLA in mid-January 1999, I was in my house in the village of Racak. At the time, the staff of the KLA was located in the house of Shyqeri Mustafa, son of Idriz, and the commander of the staff was Afet Bilalli, who was wounded during the fight and is being medically treated in the KLA staff in Laniste village, Stimlje municipality. A number of the members of the KLA staff in Racak village were located in the house of Mehmet Mustafa, son of Zenun, who was also in the KLA and was killed on the 15th of January, 1999." At the bottom of the page, he says that he saw Shukri Buja from the village of Bujance, commander of the operative area of Nerodimlje, attending the funeral. You know that this person testified here, Shukri Buja?

A. Yes, I heard that. I didn't follow it myself, but I heard it.

Q. On the second page, towards the middle of the page, he says: "Members of the KLA who were in Racak after the combat retreated towards staffs -- KLA staffs in the village of Mahala and Rance." And then he goes on to say, "On the 15th of January, during the armed action, when I went into the street I saw Mujota Sadik with a sniper rifle, and his son Nijazi with an automatic rifle."

And then he goes on to list the persons who are members of the KLA.

Would you please give us a brief comment. ³⁸⁷⁶⁰

A. The person interviewed gave accurate information, and I can say this because previously we had received information that there was the KLA staff in the village of Racak and that it was housed in the premises of Zenun and Mehmet Mustafa. Also, prior to interviewing this person and after that, we knew the names and last names of the KLA members in the village of Racak.

I can say that the commander of the substaff in Racak was Ajet Bugali [phoen], nicknamed Qopa.

Q. Mr. Jasovic, please tell us, after the Racak event, did you undertake intensive investigation about what had happened in Racak?

A. Yes. Immediately, on the following day, which is quite normal, we interviewed a large number of ethnic Albanians in order to shed light on the events in Racak, Stimlje municipality.

Q. Do you remember the names of the persons that you interviewed in relation to this?

A. I could not recall that because it's been more than six years. However, if I were to look at these documents again, then, yes, I would remember the names of the persons I interviewed. These were mostly informants and friendly contacts.

Q. All right. Would the name of Afrim Mustafa mean anything to you?

A. Afrim Mustafa does not mean anything to me as the name; however, three weeks ago when I testified in the case against the accused Musliu and Limaj, one of the Defence counsel told me that the person named, Afrim Mustafa, had complaints regarding my work.

Q. During the testimony of Judge Danica Marinkovic, we exhibited your ³⁸⁷⁶¹ document, the statement you took together with your colleague Sparavalo. The statement was signed by Afrim Mustafa. And we had an objection here to the effect that he had not signed that document or, rather, that you forced him to sign the document. This was claimed based on a statement he gave just recently, several days before you came to testify. Are you aware of that?

A. I saw that document, as I have stated, in the case against the accused Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu. What I can tell you is as follows: I can understand that man. I can understand why he cannot confirm the authenticity of his statement, for if he did that, he would put at risk the life of his family members and himself.

After we left Kosovo, a terror against Albanians started. I know that after we left, Zenit Sudi [phoen] was killed, two members of the Benjani [phoen] family, Cimil Ismail [phoen], Semyl [phoen], all of these people were killed. Mahmud Ismaj [phoen] was abducted and shot. I received this information from Albanians. And this was done near the stable in Kacanik. Therefore, I completely understand this person because, I'm repeating, if he were to confirm the authenticity, he would endanger the lives of his family and his own life. All of these cases of murder took place after we left Kosovo on the 12th of June, 1999, up until the 31st of December, 2004.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, may I ask you whether any of the persons whom you just named as having been killed gave statements to you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. And if needed, I can state this in closed session, the name of the person from whom I ³⁸⁷⁶² took a statement.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Just a second, Mr. Jasovic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You just said and named a number of persons who were killed, and I wanted to find out whether any of those persons had given statements to you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the killings which occurred between 1999 and 2004.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You said -- let's go back to the transcript. You said two members of the family Cimil, et cetera, all these people were killed. Mahmud was abducted and shot, and therefore you understand why this particular person would not confirm the authenticity of his statement. So I wanted to find out whether any of those persons killed had given statements to you. Did you collect statements from them, or were they family members of persons who had made statements to you?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the person who was killed, Mahmud Arishta, I had taken a statement from him and a criminal complaint from his brother. I don't remember the year. I think that it was in 2001 or 2002 that he was killed.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's be brief. I want to ask you something in relation to that. Since Afrim Mustafa, in his statement given to Mr. Saxon -- or, rather, in testimony given here before Mr. Saxon, he claimed that he had not signed that statement and that you, precisely you, Mr. Jasovic, and I assume ³⁸⁷⁶³ Sparavalo who co-signed the statement with you, forced him to give the statement by subjecting him to torture and electrical shocks. I will read this out. I don't have his statement, because I assume it was given in Albanian and then translated into English. I only have the statement in English, but I will read it out to you, or at least a portion of it: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... cry and scream and the man began to shout at me, 'You are a member of the KLA.'"

[Interpretation] Before that, he says, that you used some sort of electric current or electric shocks to force him to make a statement. Can you comment on those assertions of his?

A. I don't have the document in front of me, but I did see the document three weeks ago, as I've already said during the proceedings. However, I said that the person wasn't talking about himself. He gave the names and surnames of members of the KLA from the village of Racak and the surrounding villages. And I say with full responsibility, not only towards Afrim Mustafa but not towards a single person was any force or duress ever applied let alone torture.

Well, you don't assume that I signed it instead of him, and that can be sent for expertise and established that way.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just a second. Mr. Jasovic, do you have a clear recollection of the circumstances in which you took the statement from this person?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the person, and I ³⁸⁷⁶⁴ don't know whether the person was taken into custody by the police or whether he came of his own initiative. I don't know and I can't really remember. I don't have a clear recollection.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But let's clear up one thing: You confirmed the authenticity of the statement since when you saw the document and his signature and your signature and Mr. Sparavalo's signature there was no doubt, according to what you said, that the statement was indeed authentic; is that right?

A. Yes. That's what I say now too. I confirm the authenticity of my statement, because Afrim Mustafa, the person interviewed, signed it, and I signed it myself, and I think it was Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo who was with me and signed it as well. I don't have the document in front of me.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was a document that was to be found in tab 52, gentlemen, during the testimony of --

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... of this bundle.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And in connection to the testimony of Mrs. Marinkovic -- well, I can give you a copy, or perhaps you can find it in this bundle of documents which you have before you. Mr. Nice was so kind as to draw our attention to the fact that the number of the document was 1.43. Would you take a look at it, please.

A. Yes. Here I confirm the authenticity of the statement. And as I said earlier on, I can see that the statement was signed by Mustafa Afrim and myself and my colleague Momcilo Sparavalo. And on the second page, ³⁸⁷⁶⁵ his signature can't be seen, but if necessary, I'm sure that we have this document in the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac, and we can -- I can get it for you in Leskovac too.

Q. Well, you're talking about the original. I can see the signature clearly on the first page but not on the second page because the copy isn't clear enough.

A. Yes, that's right. And in the middle you have a date. It is the 17th of January, 1999. It was a document that was sent from the centre of state security in Urosevac. And from his statement I cannot see at all that he talked about himself. All I can see is that he named the names of KLA members.

Q. So your assertion that you shouted at him for being a KLA member has no reference in his statement at all?

A. No, but I understand him. He was forced to say that, not to confirm what in fact he sets out in his statement, because not only this man but others too. I don't believe, in fact, that anybody, any Albanian, would confirm any of this for the reasons I've stated. Their lives would be at risk or the lives of their families would be at risk.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, during the testimony of Judge Danica Marinkovic, Mr. Nice pointed out or, rather, challenged tabs 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, and 54. This was tab 52 of the Danica Marinkovic statement. Could you just be so kind and tell me whether those exhibits were admitted into evidence or not so that I can go through the procedure.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they were admitted into evidence. ³⁸⁷⁶⁶

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: This document will be numbered D295.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We can proceed. We can proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. KAY: D290 was the bundle.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm just going to ask you several more things linked to this subsequent statement made by a few of the witnesses several days ago, a couple of individuals, in fact, who gave statements which you took as your official duty six years ago.

Muhamed Xheladini, for instance, explains, and I'm just going to read one sentence: "[In English] I saw blood on the floor of the basement in the Ferizaj Urosevac police station. I became very afraid so I agreed to sign. I did not sign the statement voluntarily." [Interpretation] Now, explain this to me, please: What does the basement look like at the police station or, rather, the Urosevac SUP where he says he saw blood on the walls and he became afraid and that's why he signed?

A. I worked at the Secretariat of the Interior since May 1981 up until our departure on the 12th of June, 1999, and I have no idea that there is a basement in our secretariat building except the boiler room. Secondly, I know that in Prizren there is a duty officer and that there is a detention room where persons taken into custody are brought obstructing law and order, and that's on the ground floor.

Q. So what you're saying, Mr. Jasovic, is that there is no basement. ³⁸⁷⁶⁷

A. Correct.

Q. And he said that he saw blood on the floor of the basement, and you say there's no basement.

A. I claim that this person is telling untruths.

Q. Mr. Jasovic, where did you actually take these statements from the people you interviewed, you and your colleague Sparavalo or any other inspector that happened to be working in the Urosevac SUP?

A. All the statements and the interviews we had with individuals were conducted in my own office. It was number 59 on the third floor.

Q. Is it customary for interviews of this kind to be conducted in an office in which the inspector in question works, you or your colleague?

A. Yes, Mr. President. I don't know of any other room or office in which interviews would be conducted with individuals except with informers. And at the request of informers, we would have a meeting outside the SUP building and the Urosevac immediate area around it.

Q. Right. So you're talking about the contacts with informers, with persons who wanted to give you information because they didn't want other people to find out that you were meeting with them; is that right? Is that what all this is about?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Very well. Very well. And all the other statements related to the event in Racak or other cases that you investigated, would you take all the statements in this -- in the same way that you took statements from Afrim Mustafa, Xheladini, and all the others, the third man who is also mentioned here and went into some explanations saying that ³⁸⁷⁶⁸ he did not in fact make the statement?

A. Not only the statements that were taken with respect to the event in Racak but also statements taken on other -- about other events I say with full responsibility were taken pursuant to the provisions of the law on criminal procedure, and I fully respect those provisions to this day.

Q. A third man, Emini is his name, Shemsi Emini, who gave a statement explained that there were policemen who had baseball bats and that they beat him for ten minutes with the baseball bats. May I have your comments on that statement of his.

A. Baseball bats? I say with full responsibility, and other batons or truncheons, is not something that I had in my office. And I say from 1986 as a crime policeman I was never issued batons or truncheons, rubber ones. And the person that said this, well, I don't know.

Q. When you said that you weren't issued a rubber truncheon, you mean the regular type of police rubber truncheon?

A. That's right. And I was never issued one. Quite certainly I was not.

Q. All right. And do you know of a single case where during an interview of an individual in your secretariat that the person was ever beaten at the police station and forced to provide information about the KLA?

A. No, I don't know about that, of any such case.

Q. All the statements that you took from the persons you interviewed, were they signed by those persons in their own hands -- in their own hand and on every page if it was a document of several pages? ³⁸⁷⁶⁹

A. All the statements that we took, in most cases the interviewee would sign and sign on every page and also at the end of the statement. However, perhaps because we were working all the time the person might not have signed the statement on every single page but just signed the statement at the end.

Q. All right. And before the signing, before they were asked to sign, would you read back the statement to the interviewee before he signed?

A. Every statement was dictated out loud and then it was handed over to the interviewee to read. However, if the individual in question did not know or understand Serbian, then the statement would be translated into his mother tongue by myself or my colleague, and we also had Albanian colleagues who would come in to help us out in the translation. And also we have employees who are translators as well.

Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, in what way would you contact individuals related to the event in Racak, both before and after the 15th of January when the conflict broke out between the police and terrorists in Racak?

A. Both before the events in Racak and after the events in Racak, all our information and knowledge would come to us on the basis of interviews conducted with Albanians. That is to say we would take statements from Albanians who would come to us at their own initiative to report on certain events, and also from individuals who were taken into custody by the police who were in some suspect place or in the war area, or on the basis of information received from informers or from any friendly ^{38770 BLANK PAGE 38771} contacts.

Q. And what knowledge did you gain about the number of KLA members in the Stimlje area, whether they were armed, and so on and so forth, how many weapons and so on?

A. At the beginning of June 1998, the -- what we learnt is this: That the main headquarters and staff was set up in the Rance village, Stimlje municipality, that the commander of the headquarters was Isak Musliu, Qerqiz, and his deputy was Kortisa Zumber [phoen], nicknamed Mele [phoen], and after that, at the beginning of June, 1998, Isak Musliu, through a representative of the DSK, the party of Mr. Ibrahim Rugova, organised a meeting with the locals in the mosque in the village of Racak, and at the meeting he said that a staff had been set up, a KLA staff and headquarters had been set up in the village of Rance, that the KLA was taking over all control and power and authority and that they did not listen to the orders issued by other political parties formed by Albanians, that they had to listen to their orders. And at the meeting a civilian protection organisation was set up to deal with fortification of the terrain and to deal with other things as well, such as the establishment of its checkpoints at the approach not only to the village of Racak but on the roads in the surrounding villages leading into Racak in order to stop the police and any other Albanians that were suspect. At the meeting a commission was also set up for the purchase -- I'm talking about the meeting in the mosque in the village of Racak. A commission was also set up for the purchase of weapons and other requirements of the members of the KLA; foodstuffs, cooking oil, fuel, ³⁸⁷⁷² flour, et cetera.

After that, a headquarters was set up in the village of Racak, where, as I said, the staff commander was Afet Bilalli, he was appointed - his nickname was Qopa - and the deputy was Juci Bilalli [phoen], who was killed during the conflict in the village of Racak.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... to check to see whether this is information coming from statements of people whose names are available to us or whether this is information coming from the other category of material which is informants, and then the Chamber will have to decide whether it's willing to accept information if it's anonymous, and I would respectfully remind the Chamber of the views it expressed in the course of the evidence of General Ivasov who sought to give evidence that wasn't going to be available for confidential reasons to us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Wasn't that to the effect that ultimately it's of the weight the Chamber will attach to the evidence?

MR. NICE: Your Honour indicated that the material was almost valueless, but certainly before we go on hearing a long narrative of this kind, it would be helpful to know what the source is and the Chamber decide how to deal with it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the source of this information, the information that you have given us?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the information I presented is based on interviews conducted where statements were taken from informers and friendly contacts.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ³⁸⁷⁷³

Q. In order to clarify this, precisely this, what you said just now, Mr. Jasovic, I would like to draw your attention to tab 2.23. That is a piece of information. The date is the 20th of January, 1999. This provides a very precise description of everything that was done in the village of Racak, and finally, there is a long list of members of the KLA, giving their first and last names, in the village of Racak. Can you find this document, and could you give your comments on it? I would like to draw your attention to page 2, paragraph 3, which is very short, and it says: "On the basis of operative information, we have details that recently there were over 100 members of the so-called KLA in the village of Racak." That is what is stated in this report. Not to read out all the names because there is no need for that.

A. Yes. This is a document of mine, one that was signed by myself and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo.

Q. Could you please explain this now. We have two types of documents here. One type are interviews of certain persons, and you explained that after the interview you read out the statement to the said person and then you sign it and the said person signs it. And the other type are such reports, such pieces of information. How do you get this information?

A. Specifically this information we got from an informer. As for statements, we get them from interviewees, as I said.

Q. All right. All right, Mr. Jasovic. Now we are going to move on to something which will probably have to be dealt with very precisely.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. Is the witness in a position to give us more information about the informers? ³⁸⁷⁷⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already explained last time in the Fatmir Limaj, Isak Musliu trial, I had one registered informer, and his first name and last name is something that I could give you in closed session.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: So the report at 2.23 was prepared by yourself and Momcilo Sparavalo.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We'll go in closed session so that we can hear the name. Private session, yes.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Since we're not going to mention this person's name any more, could you just explain as briefly as possible what does "registered informer" mean when you use that expression?

A. The head of the said authority, that is to say the head of the SUP, gives a particular assignment to a person he trusts to deal with a registered informer, and then the registered informer's details are registered in a particular book. I never saw this book, but it was the head of the OKP, Branko Debeljkovic, who kept that book in our office. As to registered informers, all his details are there and all the information I obtained from him are in those particular files, in the files of that informer.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. Did you discuss the weapons that members of the KLA had?

A. You mean in the village of Racak?

Q. Yes. Yes.

A. Prior to the events in the village of Racak, and then that was confirmed after the event concerned and after the on-site investigation, we had had information that members of the KLA in the village of Racak have a large quantity of weapons available; automatic rifles, hand-held mortars, machine-guns, hand grenades, and other pieces of equipment and ammunition. The very fact that a large quantity of weapons was taken away, seized during the said action corroborates that, and these weapons ³⁸⁷⁷⁶ were at the SUP of Urosevac.

Also, I could say that the KLA from its very inception resorted to terrorism as a means to attain their political objective of an independent Kosovo. In order to achieve that, a large quantity of weapons was indispensable for them, for every member of the KLA, in order to carry out terrorist attacks against the civilians, ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs, and against members of the police force.

I claim with full responsibility that most of these weapons were illegally brought in from Albania in 1997 and in 1998 after the insurrection of the Albanians in the northern part of Albania when practically anarchy reigned and when the state authorities could not prevent Albanian gangs from stealing weapons and ammunition from military army depots. Most of those weapons were illegally brought into Kosovo and Metohija then, including the village of Racak.

Q. All right.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, just to return to the registered informer. Is a registered informer paid or offered any other kind of material benefit?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I'm not sure. You can ask the former head, Mr. Bogoljub Janicevic, about that, because I was an operations man, an inspector. I think that some remuneration was given, but I'm not sure, because I was involved in my own line of work.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ³⁸⁷⁷⁷

Q. In order to be as brief as possible, Mr. Jasovic, or, rather, to use time as rationally as possible, I will kindly ask you to look at Schedule A in this Kosovo indictment. That is a list of persons killed in Racak on the 15th of January, 1999. There are 40 names there. These are persons who had been identified. They were the subject of expertise and so on.

Do you perhaps have that list before you?

A. No, I don't.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please ask someone to give the witness that list. That is on page 41, Schedule A. In Serbian it's 41.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, 43 in English.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you got it now?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, please, Mr. Jasovic, when preparing for your testimony, my associates went through these statements and reports that you had gathered, and they established that out of these 40 persons in Schedule A, that in the various documents that you presented here now, that is to say this binder containing statements, there are 30 persons, 30 out of these 40, that is. So could you kindly have a look at this, starting with number -- actually, there aren't any numbers on this list, but can you find the third name, Bajrami Ragip.

A. Yes, I've found it.

Q. Now look at tab 1.35, please. 1.35. Is Bajrami Ragip in tab ³⁸⁷⁷⁸ 1.35?

A. I can say that it is correct that on the basis of statements, Official Notes, and reports, 30 persons on this list in Schedule A were members of the KLA, based on the information that we had. I think this is on the first page.

Q. I have information here stating that the name of Bajrami Ragip is on the first page in tab 1.35.

A. Just a moment, please. On the first page?

Q. Here he is, on page 2. It says Bajrami, son of Jahir, Ragip.

A. Yes.

Q. You can find his name.

A. Yes.

Q. Now please look at tab 1.50. That is also a statement that you took.

A. Yes. This is a statement that I co-signed, yes.

Q. All right. You took it from the person you interviewed.

A. Yes.

Q. I have a note here stating that in that document also there is mention of Bajrami Ragip. Here he is. It says here in the one but last paragraph on page 2, it says Bajrami Ragip. Can you identify that?

JUDGE KWON: In the middle of page 3 in the English version.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have found the said person, Bajrami Ragip.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now look at tab 1.51, please, and again there is mention of ³⁸⁷⁷⁹ Bajrami Ragip in the statement that you took.

A. On the 11th of February, 1999.

Q. Yes. Bajrami Ragip is mentioned there as well. Eight lines from the bottom of the text of the page upwards.

A. Yes, I found it.

Q. Bajrami Ragip again.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you please have a look at tab 1.54. Again there is mention of Bajrami Ragip in that statement that you took as well. Can you find it here?

MR. KAY: It's got page 4 on the bottom of the English one and it's about a third of the way down, Ragip, in the list of names.

JUDGE KWON: If you could assist me in finding that name in tab 1.51.

JUDGE BONOMY: It's the first page.

MR. KAY: First page. Yes. About eight lines up from the bottom. Zymeri is the first line, first word.

JUDGE KWON: I'm grateful.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Here in this statement in tab 1.54, Ragip Bajrami --

A. Is on the second page.

Q. Oh, you've found it.

A. Yes, yes. It says here that Ragip Bajrami from Racak village was killed in Racak as a member of the KLA.

Q. Very well. Now, that's the bottom of the second page listing the ³⁸⁷⁸⁰ names. And there's also a list of names, and then it says that "in addition to these persons, the following were also in the KLA," and then there is a long list of names with tasks of these people. It indicates who was wounded where, who was the member of the military, and so on, who was in charge of illegal border crossings, who was wounded at the border, and so on.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So this is a list as well. Now, Mr. Jasovic, Ragip Bajrami, who is on Schedule A, can be found in four statements compiled by you, in 1.35, 1.50, 1.51, and 1.54. So these statements were taken from four different persons. Is that clear based on this, Mr. Jasovic?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Very well. Now, let us take a look at the next person, Halim Beqiri. In tab 1.50 you can find his name, the name of Halim Beqiri.

A. 1.50?

Q. Yes, 1.50.

MR. KAY: Page 3 of the English, about halfway along. The line starts "Halim," and then you see a Beqiri below it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Halim Beqiri. All right, so in tab 1.50 we have a statement taken by you. You co-signed it together with Sparavalo, and mention is made of Halim Beqiri.

A. Yes. I found him on page 2, the second line.

Q. All right. Now take a look at the third person, Bilalli Lutfi. He can also be found on Schedule A, as well as in tab 1.41. ³⁸⁷⁸¹

A. Yes. I found that person, Lutfi Bilalli, son of Hasan, member of the KLA and was in charge of the civilian defence within the KLA.

Q. Yes. And this statement was given on the 12th of January, 1999, which means that the statement was given before the event in Racak.

A. I've found another date in tab 1.50.

Q. We will get to 1.50 eventually, but we have Lutfi Bilalli in tab 1.41. Please take a look at 1.41. That's what I asked you. I think that Mr. Kay told you that that can be found in 1.41.

A. Yes, I found it.

Q. That's a statement that you took on the 12th of January.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And then we can find Lutfi Bilalli in tab 1.43.

A. Yes, I've found it in tab 1.43. Bilalli Lutfi, son of Hasan.

Q. Therefore, he is mentioned in the statement of this person who denied this. Well, let me just make sure it's the same person. It is. Afrim Mustafa. No, no. That's another person. Afrim Mustafa, yes. Then take a look at tab 1.45. We can find Lutfi Bilalli there as well.

A. Yes, I've found the person. This statement is dated the 17th of January, 1999.

Q. Very well. Now, please let us take a look at the statement in 1.50 where Lutfi Bilalli is mentioned also.

MR. KAY: Page 3 of the English.

JUDGE KWON: Page 2.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found the person. ³⁸⁷⁸²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. You've found it?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Very well. Now, let us take a look at the statement given by another person, in tab 1.51, and the name of Lutfi Bilalli can be found in that statement as well. Third paragraph from the top, in the middle of the paragraph. Then in tab 1.53. Once again in third paragraph from the top, in the middle of that paragraph, we see the name of Lutfi Bilalli. Is that the same person?

A. Yes, the same person from Racak.

Q. In 1.55, tab 1.55.

A. Yes. His name is mentioned first in this statement.

Q. Have you found him in 1.55?

A. Yes, yes. This is the statement taken on the 7th of March, 1999.

Q. All right. And in report --

JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't appear to be the 1.55 we have.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1.55. I assume you must have the same document.

MR. KAY: It might be 1.56.

JUDGE BONOMY: 1.55 is a statement of the 30th of January.

JUDGE KWON: Yes, 1.56.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In 1.55, the Serbian version is the one Mr. Milosevic is referring to. Microphone for Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ^{38783 BLANK PAGE 38784}

Q. The person giving the statement has the following ID number and personal identification number, and then he says: "I personally know that the following persons from Racak, Stimlje municipality, are members of the KLA currently," and then he goes on to list about 26 names, as I was able to gather, to count, and the ninth is Lutfi Bilalli. Have you found that, Mr. Jasovic?

JUDGE ROBINSON: It doesn't correspond with what we have.

MR. KAY: In fact, if you go to the B/C/S 1.55, the liaison officer has helpfully pointed out that one.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. It's in the B/C/S, missing in the English.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, it would look as though the English translation associated with the B/C/S at 1.55 is incorrectly associated, because 1.55 in the B/C/S is dated the 7th of March, and whereas the English version that's been associated is dated the 30th of January. So there's obviously an incorrect association been made, and the better course might be for us for the time being to extract the English version, which is marked as tab 1.55, and see where it is subsequently to be placed.

While I'm on my feet and in order to assist, the Chamber might like to observe, and the accused might like to observe that the way the file has been composed, tab 1.50, 1.50, would appear to be identical with tab 1.56. If so, there will be a seeming duplication of entries in relation to particular individuals, but it would be in fact the same tab. Now, if I'm right about that, it might be that the appropriate ³⁸⁷⁸⁵ course, again, would be to cross through or to extract 1.56 as a duplicate. The accused will probably want to take some seconds to check that, but that would appear to be the position.

MR. KAY: English tab 1.55 should be at 1.47, I notice.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So with Lutfi Bilalli, we can see that you were able to find his name mentioned in eight, eight different statements given by eight different persons. All of them mention him. Whereas in tab 2.23, which is a report compiled based on, I assume, the information you had. Just a minute ago you explained to us certain facts related to 100 members of the KLA, which is the information you received from a registered informer. And in this report, Lutfi Bilalli is mentioned as well, in 2.23. Can you find him in 2.23, please.

A. Yes. I found him on the first page of this report.

Q. Yes, that's right. The second paragraph from above, Bilalli Lutfi.

Bilalli Afet is mentioned here serving as commander of the KLA in the village of Rance for a brief period of time. Are they relatives?

A. He was not the KLA commander in Rance but, rather, in Racak. Otherwise, they're brothers.

Q. All right. Thank you. Therefore, in all of these documents we were able to see that the person listed in Schedule A is a member of the ³⁸⁷⁸⁶ KLA.

Now, let us take a look at Ajet Emini. Let's find him in tab 1.2. Can you find Ajet Emini in tab 1.2?

MR. NICE: Your Honours, while we're doing that, may I withdraw for literally two minutes? The flow of work needn't be interrupted.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention, gentlemen, to the fact that this statement taken by Inspectors Jasovic and Sparavalo was taken on the 23rd of August, 1998. Therefore, Emini Ajet is mentioned in tab 1.2, and then let's see 1.51, tab 1.51.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you find his name in tab 1.51? Once again, this is a statement taken by you and your colleague Sparavalo.

A. Yes. I've found him at the bottom of the page, taken on the 11th of February, 1999.

Q. Very well. I hope that others were able to find it as well. And the name is also mentioned in report under 2.23 that we discussed just a minute ago. His name is mentioned there as well. Can you confirm that, please?

A. Report under 2.23?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes. I've found him in the list of the members of the KLA on page 3.

Q. Page 3, very well.

JUDGE KWON: In the middle of page 4 of the English version. ³⁸⁷⁸⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, the next person that can be found in several of your documents is Hajrizi Bujar. You can find him in tab 1.43. Have you found it? Hajrizi Bujar.

A. Bujar, Hanifi, Hajrizi. Yes, I've found it. 16th of January, 1999.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how many of the names in Schedule A do you say are mentioned in these statements, 30?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thirty, Mr. Robinson, yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, are you in a position to -- to agree that 30 of these names in Schedule A are included in those statements?

MR. NICE: We reach a figure of about 25, and there is a high level of correlation between the work of the accused's associates, which of course I'm just learning about in court, and our analysis. The differences so far are either because the accused's workings has added in people whom the references don't seem to be references to KLA membership but references to some other activity and/or because we don't have translations. I don't think there are any other variations between the lists that he's produced and what we've so far been able to calculate. Just give me one minute.

There are also some uncertainties as to the names in our workings, but of course if the accused is in a position to make available a schedule of some kind, we will of course check it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You're in a position to agree that at least 25.

MR. NICE: Something in the region of 25 are there, but of course ³⁸⁷⁸⁸ we -- for the purposes of our work, we need to know what are the names --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, obviously.

MR. NICE: -- that he's asserting are revealed, and probably --

JUDGE ROBINSON: If we had those names, Mr. Milosevic, then we could save time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'll give you the names or, rather, the title. It's not in English but it says a list of persons on the list in Schedule A of the Kosovo indictment from which it has been established that they were members of the terrorist KLA, and then the names and surnames follow, and the tabs in which their affiliation to the KLA was established, their membership there. So after the name, and the names are very legible because they've been typed out in the Latin script as they are indeed in Schedule A and as you'll find them in the tabs, and then the next column is the numbers of the tabs containing the names. So you have 3, Bilalli Lutfi, for example, and then in the column it says tab 1.40, 1.43, 51, 53, et cetera. So it's very easy to match them up and to identify them. And I'll be happy to provide you with that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Could that be passed to the --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- for purposes of comparison. Yes, here you are.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Pass it on to the Prosecutor.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the usher be so kind as to take over the document.

And you'll find your way in the list very easily. I think it's ³⁸⁷⁸⁹ very clear.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What we'll do is we'll have a look at it, then pass it on to the Prosecutor, have copies made, and we'll take the break now so that the Prosecutor can, in the break, examine the list and see the -- where there is a correspondence between his own information and what is on the list.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay, can you help with the current one? I'm struggling to identify the one we're looking at at the moment and 1 -- I think it's in 1.43 --

MR. KAY: Yes, it's page 2 on the English. If you go up one, two, three, four, lines, it's Ajrizi, A-j-r-i-z-i.

JUDGE BONOMY: That's a different -- The other name is different. It's not the name that we've been given.

MR. KAY: I thought it was that one. I may have misheard.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused. Microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

MR. KAY: It's got the H in front and there is -- this may be an issue for the Prosecution as well on identifying names, that there's an obvious reason for what is not a misspell but a different way of writing a name.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay. We'll take the break now, and the Prosecutor can in the interim make an examination of the list for comparison.

We are adjourned for 20 minutes. ³⁸⁷⁹⁰

--- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what has your examination revealed?

MR. NICE: We have been able to compare the accused's list with our workings. Where we had not found a name on the indictment Schedule A to be covered by this material, we've looked at the accused's identifying tab references, and in all cases we have been able to agree that he identifies names that are almost certainly names on Schedule A.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All 30.

MR. NICE: So it comes up to a total of 30.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thirty.

MR. NICE: And the reasons for differences are hardly material, but sometimes there are ambiguities of names and sometimes there is ambiguity as to whether the statement is saying that somebody is a member of the KLA or a provider of food. That's not for now. We have therefore added to our workings all the tab references that the accused had identified and that we had not relied upon, to make our list inclusive.

We also had some other references beyond those that the accused had, and for there to be an all-inclusive listing, it might help the accused, and it won't take very long, if I identify name by name. It's about ten or a dozen additional references, and if the Chamber wanted to write these additional references onto the list that the accused has provided, then there will be a comprehensive list of all possible name references found in this -- these materials. ³⁸⁷⁹¹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.

MR. NICE: So our only additional ones start off at Myfail Hajrizi, which is number 6, and although it's not very clear to us, 2.5 and 2.19 might be added in respect of that name. So that's Myfail Hajrizi, 2.5 and 2.19.

Haqif Hysenaj, number 8, we find also in 2.18. Going down to number 13, Esref Jakupi, 2.18 could be added again. Going further down to Fatmir Limani, we find a reference in 2.19. Moving on to number 19, Bajram Mehmeti, we also find a possible reference at 1.44.

I hope I'm not going too fast, but I can't -- and the next one for which we find an additional reference is Arif Metushi, number 21, and we find an additional reference for Arif Metushi possibly in 1.40; and similarly with Haki Metushi, number 22, there is a possible additional reference in 1.40.

Mustafa Muhamet, number 23, we believe there may be an additional reference at 2.19.

And then to Syla Sheremet, number 27, we believe there may be an additional reference at 2.19.

And the last addition would be Njazi Zymeri, number 30, for whom we think there may be an additional reference at 2.23.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice. So, Mr. Milosevic, that relieves you of the burden of going through your lists, unless there is any particular matter in the statements that you wish to refer to. ³⁸⁷⁹²

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm happy that the opposite side was able to establish that 30 of the names in the documents that were presented are there. Then I won't go on to establish whether the names are in the tabs, because I hope we've established that. But before I continue, Mr. Robinson, I feel it my duty, and that is why I asked them to find the transcript, to react to what Mr. Nice said a moment ago with respect to General Ivasov's testimony, because Mr. Nice said a moment ago that you did not attach any weight to that testimony, and I'm going to read from the transcript what you said, Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You said this, it's on page 33731: "Mr. Milosevic, are you bringing any evidence to support [In English] what the witness has confirmed in response to your question, which is that your forces only reacted to terrorism or, rather, that the Russian members of the Verification Mission reported that your forces, the Yugoslav forces, only reacted to terrorism? Are you going to bring any evidence to support that?

"THE ACCUSED: Naturally. I also have in mind witnesses, officials of our police and our army, as well as witnesses from Kosovo. I cannot enumerate all the others now, but this is very important witness we have here because he represents the military leadership of Russia, which is the spot where all the information was gathered, especially during these events in Kosovo."

Then you are explaining: "JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's a matter for you how you conduct your case, but he has made an important statement, ³⁸⁷⁹³ and the Chamber will have to assess to determine the weight to be attached to it, and naturally the Chamber will give greater weight to it if it is backed up by documentary evidence."

[Interpretation] And then on page 33734, you say the following: "[In English] Now, I consider that to be very important. The Chamber would be able to attach much more weight to this evidence if you were to bring evidence to support that, either documentary evidence or evidence from any of Russian officers who were a part of that mission to establish that their reports were not taken into account. ... "So don't rely entirely on his evidence on this point. If you have other evidence to bring, it will boost your case ... to confirm the point that you are making."

[Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. Robinson, at no point did you say that you do not attach any importance to the testimony of General Ivasov, but you exclusively indicated the fact that greater weight will be attached if the testimony is supported by certain documents. And that is why I consider that what Mr. Nice said in undermining General Ivasov's testimony is not proper, nor did he quote what you said accurately.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. I don't think this is going to be very helpful.

MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. Simply to remind the Chamber that I was focused simply on the question of the difficulty of evidence where the witness says he cannot produce the evidence, and the exchange went very shortly like this: That the witness said that he had no power to provide a document because he had no power to do so and was not mandated by his ³⁸⁷⁹⁴ government to do so, and before I was able to make an objection, Your Honour said, "You will realise, then, Mr. Milosevic, that the evidence is almost valueless. If the document he read from cannot be passed over to the Court for the reasons that he has just outlined, the evidence is valueless because it is not then going to be able to be tested." So we were only looking at and considering that part of his evidence that was dependent upon the secret information. It was analogous to that that I drew your attention to the position with this witness's evidence, but we've moved on a little from then now because he's said things in the course of this morning about his sources which distinguish it from that position, although I'd like to return to that a little later.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Then I think we should move on, Mr. Milosevic. Thanks very much.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm not going to dwell on comparing Schedule A of the persons killed in Racak with the other information from the many statements of yours, but let's now establish something else. When, during what period, did you learn, did you receive information about the terrorist activities in the Racak area and the surrounding parts within the frameworks of your regular duties as a crime inspector in the police force?

Take a look at tab 1.2 first, please, and tell me whether this person, in August 1998, provided you with a statement. It is six months prior to the events in Racak. In August 1998, did you receive information about members of the KLA in the village of Racak? ³⁸⁷⁹⁵

A. I can state here and now that on the basis of the statements, official reports and information prior to the incident in the village of Racak and the statements and reports after the incident or event in Racak, from Albanian informers and other informers we learnt and received information about KLA members in the village of Racak, and this was confirmed, namely that most of them were from the village of Racak and the surrounding villages.

Q. Thank you. So the information that is documented here in tab 1.2, there.

Now, take a look at the next tab, 1.3, the 29th of August, 1998 is the date. You took a statement there?

A. Yes, the 29th of August, 1998.

Q. It is tab 1.3. Tell me, please, did this person provide you with information about KLA members as well in Racak and the Stimlje area?

A. Yes. They were members of the KLA from the village of Racak, as I can see here, from the village of Petrovo and the surrounding villages.

Q. Very well. Now, yesterday we established where Racak, Petrovo, Rance and all the rest were. It's an area of several kilometres within that radius.

Now, take a look at the following tab, tab 1.4, and that is two days later and the date is the 31st of August, 1998, this time. And what information did you obtain there?

A. This is a statement taken on the 31st of August, 1998, in which the person interviewed gives us the names of Bajrush from the village of et cetera, et cetera. It is a former policeman that we're talking about ^{38796 BLANK PAGE 38797} of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, and he left his job in 1990, and then Hisenaj Ramadan, Hisenaj Bedri, Hisenaj Fadil from the village of Petrovo, Musliu Ramadan, sons -- from the village of Racak, and we learnt later about their names, that they were sons of Smajl, et cetera. We learnt these names later on, of the sons; Smajli, Musliu, et cetera.

Q. Now, take a look at tab 1.5, the next tab in line. When did you take that particular statement?

A. We took the statement on the 3rd of September, 1998.

Q. And what information did that give you?

A. The interviewee, I knew him from earlier on, and he was talking about things linked to the staff and headquarters of KLA -- of the KLA in Rance, the 100 -- the first staff of the 121st Brigade, in fact. And I assume that it lists the names of persons who joined the KLA in the village of Rance. I haven't read it through, but to the best of my recollection that's what it's about.

Q. You mean you haven't read it now, again now?

A. That's right, but I remember that this person said that in the village of Rance there was a canteen and that there was a bakery that had been built for baking bread.

Q. Yes. There's an addition to this statement talking about the bakery and so on because there was a concentration there of KLA members and required it. And there are two documents in tab 1.5. One is the statement, and then we have an addition to the statement about the building of the bakery and the organisation there. Very well. Now, in tab 1.6, a statement which you also took on ³⁸⁷⁹⁸ the 5th of September, 1998. Would you take a look at that, please.

A. Yes, the date is the 5th of September, 1998, and I know about this case. The individual reported the case. During the night of the 4th of September, 1998, around 2400 hours some people were abducted and taken to an unknown direction. We learnt later that these people were taken to a shed in Malopoljce. The abducted person was tied up with a rope and somehow he managed to untie the knot and escape. After having fled, he came to the Secretariat of the Interior at his own initiative and reported the case of his very own kidnapping.

Q. All right. Let's not go into the description of everything he said, but can we see the names here? And is there information here about actual names and weapons?

A. I'm looking at the last paragraph here. "A person wearing a camouflage uniform walked into the shed. I recognised him because he went to school with me, Fadil, son of Sadik, Mujota is the person concerned. When he recognised me he told the guard that I was not to be beaten any more." That is the quotation.

I can't find everything I'm looking for here. Also, "Jakupi Xhabir is a person I mentioned, I recognised," he says, "from Racak village who was in a camouflage uniform with KLA insignia. His rifle was pointed at me. Another person in a camouflage uniform was with an automatic rifle and a big beard was standing next to him. The two of them came into the room I had been sleeping in with my wife and children."

Q. You don't have to read everything. The person who gave you the statement, is he an Albanian? ³⁸⁷⁹⁹

A. Yes, this is an ethnic Albanian.

Q. He was arrested by the KLA?

A. Yes, kidnapped, abducted by force.

Q. He mentions the names of these persons here, members of the KLA, and their weapons. In the statement and in the annex to the statement. Is this the authentic statement that you actually took from him after the event described --

A. Yes.

Q. -- where he was the damaged party?

A. Yes. This is an authentic statement the kidnapped person gave. I can confirm that he signed the said statement, as well as myself and my colleague Momcilo Sparavalo.

Q. All right. Would you look at tab 1.7 now. Do you remember this? Just glance at it, let's not dwell on it too long. Is that the statement that you took from him? Does it indicate -- well, it says: "I saw Avdyli's brother. I don't know his name, except that I know they owned the Atlantik cafe in Stimlje. He was in civilian clothing and had an automatic rifle. He was with another person I didn't know who also had an automatic rifle." This statement is all of two pages and he gives various names here.

A. Yes. I can confirm the authenticity of this statement, because the said person signed the statement as well as myself, Momcilo Sparavalo, and also Vujinovic from the state security service.

Q. In one of the statements that was taken by Mr. Nice's staff about as far as the incorrectness of what was done is concerned, it was said ³⁸⁸⁰⁰ that your statements are typed out on a computer, and I see here they are typewritten.

A. No, they were never typed out on a computer. You can see here that they were all typed out on a typewriter. And these are authentic statements. As I said, I can confirm their authenticity because it is the interviewee who signed the statement as well as I and my colleague. These are authentic. This is authentic information provided by the interviewee.

Q. All right. Please look at the statement contained in tab 1.8. That is also September 1998. Towards the end of page 1, "From the village of Racak the first person to join the KLA was Sadiku and he had an automatic rifle that he owned illegally and he was joined in the KLA by Nebi, son of Smajl Musliu; Nesret, son of Ramadan Musliu; Afrim, son of Ramadan Musliu," et cetera. There are about 20 persons mentioned here and I'm not going to read out all of their names. And then it says that Hajnija Salihu, with Rifat Imeri, who was from the Lapusnik village, came to the KLA --

A. No, the village is Laniste.

Q. But it says Lapusnik here in the text. Then there are a great many members of the KLA that are mentioned here. On page 2 it also says, "A month ago Isak Rasiti came to my house and he was going to the house of Isak Musliu in Racak. I accepted that and I found Shefqet, son of Ramadan Musliu," and so on and so forth, and then here he mentions who was wearing camouflage uniform, who was wearing civilian clothing, who was wearing a black uniform, and it says they were all armed with automatic rifles except Shefqet. ³⁸⁸⁰¹ You got this statement from this person who you interviewed on the 8th of September, 1998.

A. I claim that his details are correct. This person resided in Racak and he himself saw all movements and all activities of KLA members. And he knew where the KLA headquarters were. And as far as I can see, he referred to a meeting that was held in the beginning of June at the mosque. He also saw members of the KLA in the village of Racak wearing camouflage uniforms with UCK insignia on them, or KLA insignia on them, and they also had weapons.

Q. All right. Since you do not want to say, and that is fully justified, what the actual names are, you don't want to go into that in public session, can it be seen here that this is an Albanian employed -- who is employed?

A. Yes. This is an ethnic Albanian who had a permanent job, yes.

Q. All right. Was it your assessment that when you got such statements you could consider them to be sufficiently credible and that you could rely on information that you received in this way?

A. Yes.

Q. With this many details and explanations?

A. Yes. As I already mentioned, these are details, and these persons were primarily from those villages where KLA headquarters were.

Q. Did this person come of his own free will and give a statement or was he arrested? Can you remember?

A. I could not remember, but I see here that he was brought into custody to the Urosevac SUP. I see that in line 1. It says, "Was ³⁸⁸⁰² detained in the Urosevac SUP."

Q. All right. Mr. Jasovic, please look at tab 1.9. That is also the 10th of September, 1998. Is that a statement that you took as well?

A. The statement taken on the 10th of September, 1998, concerns a person who came at his own initiative to report the case concerned. He was kidnapped and taken to a prison in Lapusnik. He also reported the kidnapping of his father.

Q. All right. These are Albanians who were victims of the KLA. He explained that persons armed with Chinese-made automatic rifles, et cetera. That practically means that they come from arsenals from Albania; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. He said that he was in the prison in Gornji Lapusnik. Did you have any other information about this prison in Gornji Lapusnik?

A. Yes, I did; that several persons who were ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs kidnapped and taken to the notorious prison in Lapusnik. If necessary, I can give their names. These are persons from Donje Godance, from Belince, from Racak. Specifically I could mention a person here from the village of Racak. I wouldn't like to mention his details. He had been kidnapped because he had a dispute over his yard with an ethnic Albanian, and he reported the case at the Stimlje police station.

Q. So why was he kidnapped; because he reported the dispute to the police?

A. Yes. That was the only reason why he was taken away. Kidnapped and taken to Lapusnik, that is. I don't know whether it is necessary for ³⁸⁸⁰³ me to mention the kidnapped persons who were Albanians.

Q. Well, you don't have to mention the names, but if you know them off-the-cuff.

A. I know that from the village of Petrova on the 4th of July, 1998, Rexhaj Heta was kidnapped. Around the 20th of July, 1998, or the 21st, his son Rexhaj Rizah was kidnapped. Musli Musliu from the village of Belince was kidnapped on the 17th of July, 1998, and his son also around those days, Muje Musliu, was kidnapped towards the end of July 1998. Brothers from the village of Racak, Shefqet Ramadani and Hali Ramadani were kidnapped. They were from the village of Racak. Shefqet was kidnapped because he worked in ElektroKosmet. He actually stayed at his job. Then Safet Hisenaj from the village of Petra was kidnapped. Then three ethnic Albanians were kidnapped from the village of Gornje Godance. As for ethnic Serbs, we know that Miladinovic Serba [phoen] was kidnapped. Brothers or cousins with the last name of Krstic, then Krstic Zivorad. As I said yesterday, Bakrac Vojko, Bakrac Ivan, Genov Stamen, Cuk Djordje, all of them were kidnapped, and a few unidentified persons who were ethnic Serbs.

All of these persons I mentioned were taken to the prison in Lapusnik. Possibly there are a few others, but I can't recall their names.

Q. All right. You worked there for a very long time. You were very familiar with the area, as we can see from this, that you can recall all these names that you worked on.

Please take a look at the statement contained in tab 1.10. It is ³⁸⁸⁰⁴ dated the 11th of September in 1998. Does it also pertain to information about the KLA in that area, in that area you took a statement?

A. Yes. This statement dated the 11th of September, 1998, and as far as I can see, this person mentioned KLA members from the village of Petrovo, municipality of Stimlje.

Q. All right. Let's not dwell on this too long. Then tab 1.11. This is a statement dated the 13th of September, 1998. And it says here: "I myself saw the following persons in the village of Petrovo with KLA insignia and with automatic rifles," and then he gives the names.

A. Yes.

Q. As far as I can see, some 20, 22 persons in camouflage uniform or in black uniform.

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. This is the 13th of September, 1998, and it says in the case of one of these persons, killed: Djemsir Emini Ademaj. This is the 13th of September, 1998. Is this the statement that you took, you and your colleague Sparavalo?

A. Yes. Yes. This is the statement that I and my colleague Momcilo Sparavalo took. And the interviewee mentions the names of members of the KLA in camouflage uniforms with KLA insignia and in black uniforms. I can say here that these are black uniforms. These are uniforms with PU signs, Policia Ushtarake, and when translated into the Serbian, it means military police.

Now, in Ljuzak Mahala, that is where the headquarters of the military police were in the municipality of Stimlje, and Isak Musliu ³⁸⁸⁰⁵ commanded this staff. Qerqiz was his nickname. He was appointed KLA commander, sometime -- commander of the military police, that is, of the PU, in the autumn of 1998.

Members of the KLA in black uniforms were professionally trained persons. According to our information, they had been trained in Albania.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, all these statements taken by the witness appear to establish that there was KLA activity in Racak. I'm wondering if there is some shortcut to labouring through all of them. Mr. Nice, what would you say to the Chamber admitting these statements?

MR. NICE: As to the statements under tab 1, 1.1 and so on, I think I've made in the past such arguments as I can make about excluding hearsay documents of this type that touch issues of significance, and I'd rather understood from the combination of the earlier oral decision on hearing this witness and the written decision that followed it that the likelihood was that you would be admitting these exhibits subject to a final decision on their status or admissibility at the conclusion of cross-examination, cross-examination that, as the Chamber may know, I would ask to be deferred.

As to tab 2, different considerations arise for two reasons, and I'd be grateful for an opportunity of addressing you in private session for just a couple of minutes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I was saying that the order that the Chamber made in relation to this witness's evidence was that determination of the admissibility of a statement will only be made after it has been translated and the evidence of the witness has been concluded. So we had decided to determine admissibility at the end of his testimony as a whole, which doesn't preclude us from looking at a particular matter as it arises, but that's the -- that's the decision of the Chamber. Mr. Milosevic, you had indicated that you might want to deal with the rest of the statements as a whole to shorten proceedings.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. I want to be as efficient as possible in view of the time, however, I don't know what Mr. Nice is going to find objectionable.

You said just now that you will make a decision after the evidence is concluded, and before I go into any details of any statements, Mr. Robinson and gentlemen, please bear in mind the arguments that go counter the request of Mr. Nice to have the cross-examination postponed. I don't see a single reason to have the cross-examination of this witness postponed, because Mr. Nice has the documents or has had them for full 20 days, the documents that this witness is testifying about. This witness was their witness, and they knew about him coming to testify long in advance.

I would like to remind you that I received from the opposite side ³⁸⁸¹¹ very large binders and would usually get a reply from Mr. Nice that I have sufficient time overnight -- would hear from Mr. May that I have sufficient time overnight to familiarise myself with the contents.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not dealing with that particular issue now. When we -- when we get to it, we'll deal with it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. May I continue with my examination?

JUDGE KWON: Before going on, can I ask a technical question to the witness.

While we are staying on tab 1.11, you can notice some handwritten numbers at the top of the page. If you could tell us what it represents. For example, we see the numbers 414. Is it -- is it what you wrote down? Only in Serbian version.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 414 is not something that I wrote down. I'm not familiar with that, because the files and their copies were taken to the Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade. Therefore, I don't know.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, if I may be of assistance. I will look for the document and so on, because I think these documents A/6-25 and so on, I think that these are the numbers assigned in the archives of the Ministry of the Interior, because in the receipt signed by my associates upon receiving certain documents from them at the Ministry of the Interior, identical numbers are indicated, A/6 and so on. Similar numbers can be found in those receipts. This involves over 1.000 of documents which they received one year after they put in a request. ³⁸⁸¹²

JUDGE KWON: It seems to me that all the documents in tab 2 start with number 5, so it seemed to me that it was written for the purpose of this proceeding, but I'm not sure. That can be clarified later. Go on, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

JUDGE KWON: Could you hold on, please.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it may be that tab 1 could be taken in general. The specific points raised by Mr. Nice relate to tab 2. So take tab 1 in general, the rest of tab 1.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, yes. I found, while you were conferring, this receipt, and it was signed by one of my associates, attorney Momir Rajicevic [phoen], in Belgrade, and he says, "I hereby confirm that on the 17th of March, 2005, at 12.00 in the offices of the MUP of Serbia re: The request of the 18th of January, 2004 -" that is 14 months prior to that - "by lawyer Ognjanovic with his power of attorney that I selected documents from a file in copies A/5," then the number, then 25/another number. And you can place this on the ELMO if you like. And it reminded me of the numbers that were handwritten on these documents, the first part, the second part. So this is a receipt that I have saved to see how long is necessary for any type of documents to be received. And as you can see, we received this very recently, and you can see how long it took us to get them, and it shows the numbers.

MR. KAY: I think there might be a slight confusion. I've been aided in relation to this particular receipt. There is another receipt, ³⁸⁸¹³ but the receipt referred to may refer to Stefanovic documents which are to be introduced, but I mentioned this yesterday because I was asked about the provenance of these documents as best as I could know. I gave the best answer I could. I made some research, and they didn't come with this witness. They had actually been collected by the associates to Mr. Milosevic, as he's described, from official archives in Serbia, and their provenance and continuity is able to be established by them through that. They didn't come through the witness. He just happened to be able to tie up with the documents in a convenient way, as we all know arose several weeks ago.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kay. Do you still want us to have a look at that document, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you can just take a look at it, just one second, a brief glance - it's not going to take up too much time - and you can see the case numbers.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we have seen it, for what it is worth, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I have the receipt back, please. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You heard, Mr. Jasovic, the suggestion made by Mr. Robinson. In tab 1 or, rather, from tab 1 to 57, you have the statements taken from citizens of Albanian ethnicity. Did you have an opportunity of checking, since these documents were -- came from the Ministry of the Interior, did ³⁸⁸¹⁴ you have an opportunity of checking whether in all these documents, from 1 to 57, whether they're all authentic documents, that is to say documents that you compiled together with your colleague taking statements in your capacity of an official employee from the individuals mentioned in them, in the documents?

A. Yes, that's true. I can confirm the authenticity of all these documents. And as I said yesterday, I said this clearly: They are documents on the basis of the interviews with Albanians who came to us of their own free will to report events and cases and also pass information of Albanians who were taken into custody. And with respect to what Mr. Nice said a moment ago, the register of the informers.

Q. We haven't come to that yet. That's tab 2. We'll deal with that later on in due course, tab 2. I was referring to the first tab, tab 1.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you referred to tab 57, but the Chamber was handed over a document with a note which says to be added as tab 1.58, but index of your binder does not say about this tab, so could you clarify that, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be happy to clarify that straight away, Mr. Kwon. You know full well that this witness came to testify here at the kind initiative of Mr. Nice. I did not have any information about his stay here, so the time was very brief, that is to say the time I had, and in the meantime my associates established that this witness knows about certain events from the Kacanik municipality. We did not have the time to submit all the documents for translation, all the documents that I have in my possession, but we did translate one statement ³⁸⁸¹⁵ which does not relate to the Racak area but relates precisely to the Kacanik area, and that's the 1.58 document. And at the end of my examination-in-chief, I'll be asking the witness several questions with respect to that statement, because it is directly linked to a count in the indictment that's speaks about Kotlina and a killing there, and the qualification here is of innocent citizens, the killing of innocent Albanians in the places mentioned where these killings allegedly took place. So I'll be addressing that in due course.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm happy to see you acknowledge the kind initiative of the Prosecutor. His conduct was consistent with the highest standards of the Bar.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we've exchanged compliments, may we continue?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, all these statements, by virtue of their form and contents, are they all official documents of the police force of the Republic of Serbia?

A. Yes, they are official documents of the police of the Republic of Serbia because all the statements were taken pursuant to the law on criminal proceedings and their provisions for written documents. And I can confirm the authenticity of each of these documents, especially since they were signed by the interviewee and myself.

Q. You and your colleague, you mean.

A. Yes, myself and one of my colleagues, that's right. ³⁸⁸¹⁶

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I would like to tender into evidence tab 1, which is documents 1 to 57 inclusive, that is to say statements taken by the authorised persons and relate to the testimony of Mr. Jasovic or, rather, the events and activities of the KLA in the Racak area.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, as indicated in our order, what we'll do now is we'll note your application, and we'll make a ruling on the admission at the conclusion of the witness's testimony.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic --

JUDGE ROBINSON: And the same thing will apply for the document that you submitted with the 30 names to which ten have been added by the Prosecutor.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand it that Mr. Nice was adding names. What I understood was that he provided references for those names from other documents, because 30 were identified, 30 KLA members have been identified.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. That's correct, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, please, Mr. Jasovic, look at tab 2 where you will find the Official Notes. So we're not dealing with statements any more, statements of the interviewees, but official notes and information. Some documents are titled Official Note, others are titled Information or Report. ³⁸⁸¹⁷

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before I go on to ask my questions, I'd just like to draw your attention, Mr. Robinson, to a question that was raised with respect to the source of information. The source was given by the witness in closed session, and it referred to a specific document, a concrete document, in this set of documents under tab 2, because we have tabs 2.1 to 2.30 inclusive, and he referred to one specific document. The witness did not say at any point that he compiled all these Official Notes and reports on the basis of just one informer. He said -- what he said was when he referred to one or we were discussing one of the documents in this set within tab 2. I think it was document 2.23, but we can check that out in the transcript.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, Mr. Jasovic, I'd like to ask you this: These are all Official Notes and reports, as we have seen. Now, how do you come by these Official Notes and reports? What do they in fact represent? What are they?

A. Official Notes and reports are compiled after we conduct the interviews with the informers or collaborators or through friendly contacts; anyway, on the basis of the interviews. After the interviews we compile Official Notes and reports of this kind. And here we have Official Notes and reports not compiled on the basis of one registered informer but they are Official Notes and reports which relate to information learnt through friendly contacts as well. And I'd like to add, and Mr. Nice said something like that a moment ago, that a registered informer did not die, he was killed, in ³⁸⁸¹⁸ fact, in August 1998 by a KLA member, by KLA members.

Q. Very well. Now, let's start at the beginning. First things first.

Mr. Jasovic, tab 2.1 is an Official Note which was compiled on the 9th of July, 1998, and it says, "Source: A friendly contact from the Siptar ethnic minority." And then it says: "On the 7th of July, 1998, we learned the following from a friendly contact from the Siptar ethnic minority:" And then it goes on to list the information and data or, actually, the things you learned.

Now, what does it mean when you say "friendly contact from the Albanian minority"? Is that a personal friend or does it mean something else?

A. Friends are one thing, friendly contact is another. When we say "friendly contact," we mean people that we knew earlier on and who were willing to give the information voluntarily, of their own free will. And in this case it was a friendly contact, as the term goes, from somebody from the Stimlje municipality. The village is Gornje Godance and he is a registered informer giving us information relating to the village of Gornje Godance and the kidnapping of Shyqeri Zymberi and the other two individuals.

Q. All right. I can see here on the 27th of June, 1998, Ademi Agim and Vesel Ahmeti and Shyqeri Zymberi were kidnapped and taken away in an unknown direction and their legally possessed firearms were seized from them. So they had permits to -- for the possession of firearms. And then it goes on to say: "He also took part in terrorist operations," et ³⁸⁸¹⁹ cetera, et cetera. So what this is about is the kidnapping of Albanians by the KLA; is that right? Is that the contents of that Official Note?

A. Yes. This was the case of kidnapped Albanians who were kidnapped from their family homes on the 27th of June, 1998, after midnight.

Q. You as a police inspector, would you have any reason to doubt the truthfulness of the information given to you by your friendly contact about the kidnapping of these Albanians by the KLA?

A. Mr. President, I'm a professional policeman. I have been working for -- as a policeman for about 30 years, and after so much time and experience, I don't for one minute doubt the information provided to me by my friendly contact, by this particular friendly contact.

Q. Here, for example, mention is made of, and that is to be found in the last paragraph on this first page, Shukri Buja, father Gani, he is one of the commanders of the KLA in the Lipjan municipality and collaborates with terrorists from Zborce. So that is a piece of information which has been checked out through many other pieces of information, and he testified here.

A. Yes, that is correct, because Shukri Buja, and his pseudonym was Gazetari Sokoli, later on was the commander of the 161st Brigade of the operative zone for the Urosevac area. And at the same time this friendly contact, the Albanian who provided me with this piece of information, I can say this, that Gornje Godance from the village of Jajce, where Shukri Buja resides, is barely a kilometre away.

Q. All right, very well. So those are the facts that were not contested here as far as he himself was concerned, whereas all the other ³⁸⁸²⁰ pieces of information can be checked out.

Now, is it clear here that you received this information on the 7th of July, 1998?

A. Yes. The Official Note was written on the 9th of July, 1998, but we received the information on the 7th of July, 1998.

Q. This Official Note is fairly precise and gives a lot of information, a lot of facts. Were you able, through other pieces of information, to convince yourself and to check out this information as being correct?

A. Yes, we checked this out through other sources of information and other statements. We checked out the information, and the information is indeed correct.

Q. Very well, thank you. Now, who was this Official Note addressed to?

A. This Official Note was addressed to and is addressed to the head of the Secretariat of the Interior, specifically the SUP Urosevac chief, for analysis and systematisation.

Q. Right. So you compile an Official Note, and you hand it over to your superior; is that right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And then it follows the MUP channels for analysis and further processing; is that right?

A. It's like this: In addition to the SUP chief, a copy of the Official Note is sent to the state security department in Urosevac and also to the staff for Kosovo and Metohija in Pristina. As I say, the Main ³⁸⁸²¹ Staff, the main headquarters gets sent the more interesting official notes.

Q. Would you now compare this kind of Official Note that you -- we find in tab 2, and it was taken at the beginning of July 1998, and it speaks about a large number of activities on the part of the members of the KLA and even information about who took part in a terrorist action in Crnoljevo, et cetera. So it uncovers and establishes everything linked to the crimes committed by the terrorist organisation. Was that the purpose of this piece of information, this Official Note?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the next document will be found in tab 2.3 --

JUDGE BONOMY: Before moving on to that, Mr. Jasovic, are you able to give us the name of the source from whom you got the information for the report tab 2.1?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but in closed session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll go into private session.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please look at the next document in tab 2.2. As opposed to 2.1 where it says "friendly contact from the Siptar ethnic minority," here it says: "On the basis of operative information and conducted interviews, we have obtained information that snipers are located in suitable spots in the village of Crnoljevo on the mountain above the mosque and the road intersection, from which they are opening fire on the police and army. We consider it essential that police and commanding officers be informed about this."

Have you found the reference?

A. No, I didn't hear the tab number.

Q. The next one; 2.2.

JUDGE ROBINSON: 2.2, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. 2.2. 2.1 was the previous one. Have you found 2.2?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Jasovic, please look at this carefully. In 2.1 there was a friendly contact, and in 2.2 it says: "On the basis of operative information and conducted interviews ..." Could you please explain the difference in terms of these sources of information.

A. This information was probably compiled when we could not take a statement because the said person was working all the time. I had a notebook where I wrote down the persons who were providing information. ³⁸⁸²⁴

Q. All right. Now let us deal with what it says here. This is a very brief piece of information in tab 2.2. So we've clarified how you obtained this.

And now it says: "The place where the snipers are located is on the left side of the road in the direction of Crnoljevo village. "Crnoljevo-Petrastica is a macadam road. Towards Petrastica village, in trenches, there are members of the so-called KLA armed with hand-held rocket launchers --" I'm reading it out as it is -- "among other weapons, and that is where the fiercest resistance to the police and army is expected. On the above road from the first bend to Petrastica village trenches have been dug on both sides in three parallel rows every 10 to 15 metres from the road."

And then it is mentioned that also from above Belince village to Crnoljevo village there are trenches on both sides of the road in suitable places in the forest at around one kilometre from the main road. Now, since the truthfulness of all this information is being questioned all the time, tell us, Mr. Jasovic, what kind of interest could the police have to establish all of this and to have all of this proven to be incorrect?

A. You see, in addition to this information, we have a large number of statements that indicate the same information, that these bunkers, trenches, communication trenches were on the left- and right-hand side of the village of Belince, that is the municipality of Stimlje, and they went all the way to Crnoljevo. Trenches, communication trenches and bunkers from the village of Crnoljevo to the village of Petrastica. On several ³⁸⁸²⁵ spots there were strong fortifications with KLA members who were armed with long-barrelled and short-barrelled weapons. This information is true and verifiable.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, last time I drew your attention to this: What kind of interest would the police have to correct misinformation about the activities of the terrorists? And you said that police do that kind of thing in many countries.

If you read all this information, you will see that the police was compiling this information in order to find the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, of the crimes, and that is indicated by the number of persons who were ultimately arrested and also the number of persons who were killed in clashes with the police.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue with your examination after that comment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, now, in tab 2.3, it says here: " ... through our acquaintance of Siptar nationality from the village of Petrovo ..." What kind of a contact is this now, an acquaintance contact? What does that mean?

A. A person who is not a friend but an acquaintance whom I would see. It's not that I would really meet up with this person. I would not socialise with that kind of person. So it is a person I would know from -- by sight.

Q. Tell me -- ³⁸⁸²⁶

A. Just a moment, please. I don't know whether it's in my notebook, but, yes, in closed session I can give you the name and surname of this person.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, if you are interested in this, you can hear it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just have a look here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's go into private session.

MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, also for 2.2, unless I've missed it, I don't think that's been dealt with.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take a break now for 20 minutes. We are adjourned.

--- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Please continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, we're dealing with document 2.3 now. You've explained this acquaintance, that type of contact. This is the 2nd of August, 1998. And it is the area of the villages of Rance, Stimlje, from where it was learned where the police and army were shot at from the road near the village of Crnoljevo. It is mentioned that the terrorist gang in the village of Jezerce, Urosevac, was located in Hiseni Smajl's house and in the Ugzmajli family home. And finally, that a certain Hisenaj Halim from the village of Petrovo was seen in the village of Rance wearing a uniform of the so-called KLA and carrying an automatic rifle. According to the information received, he is now in the village of Petrovo. Does this information pertain to the KLA forces that were operating in the ³⁸⁸²⁸ environs of Rance?

A. Yes. The village of Petrovo, municipality of Stimlje, is the place that this person was from and he knew the members of the KLA in the village of Petrovo and in the surrounding villages. As for this information about the terrorist gang in the village of Jezerce, he knew about that because the KLA headquarters were in the village of Jezerce, municipality of Urosevac, and later on, since the village of Jezerce is in a mountainous area and quite inaccessible, the KLA headquarters were transferred to Isuf Avdyli's house in the village of Malopoljce, and this village is about a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from the village of Petrovo.

Q. All right. You explained --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I just want to ask the witness a question. It doesn't really relate to your testimony. In the first line of the Official Note in the English, after "Siptar" we have "derogatory for Albanians." Is that written by the witness or by the translator? By the translator. Let me just have it confirmed. Did you write in this "derogatory for Albanians" in brackets in the first --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, sir.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. It was probably written in by the translators. Thanks.

Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in this note in Serbian, it says: "From an acquaintance contact of Siptar ethnicity from ³⁸⁸²⁹ the village of Petrovo." There is no such thing as "derogatory term." This is probably a note made by the translator and that is why it is in parentheses.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Number 4, that is to say 2.4. This is a very interesting note, Official Note. I'm going to quote from it. It speaks of abducted Albanians primarily, but at the very outset it says that on the 1st of August, 1998, a certain person whose name and surname are there, including his father's name and his date of birth, came to the Urosevac SUP of his own accord and reported the following. He is from a certain village in the municipality of Stimlje, and this is what he reported.

Now I would like to draw your attention to what is said here, that at a particular point in time he was abducted and taken in an unknown direction by five terrorists who were dressed in green camouflage uniforms with KLA insignia and armed with automatic rifles. That same night, in Petrovo village, the terrorists also kidnapped Bajrush Rexhaj, a former policeman in the Urosevac SUP. Rexhaj Rizah and Rexhaj -- the terrorists put bags over the heads of Rizah Rexhaj and Bajrush Rexhaj, and they were taken in a white jeep via the villages of Rance and Petrastica to a place he later learned was called Lapusnik. So again we're going back to the prison in Lapusnik.

A few lines down, it says, after being brought to Lapusnik, according to what this person said, this person who stated all of this to you, he was, according to his account, put in a barn in which besides him ³⁸⁸³⁰ there were another 11 people. He said, again further down, there were another two or three barns in which the kidnapped persons were being held. Then, again, many persons are mentioned who have Albanian names and surnames and who had been abducted.

Did you have more detailed information about persons who were abducted and detained in Lapusnik? You mentioned it a few moments ago. Did you have any information as to what happened to them?

A. As for the majority of the persons abducted and taken to the prison of Lapusnik, their fate is still unknown. However, we do have some information that they had been killed at Velika Stena, the locality of Velika Stena, in the municipality of Glogovac above the village of Lapusnik.

We also have information that when they were taken to be executed on Velika Stena, a few of them managed to escape. Specifically, I know that Adem Ramadani, Shefqet Ramadani from the village of Gornje Godance in the municipality of Stimlje, managed to escape, as well as Musliu from the village of Belince, municipality of Stimlje, Milaim Kamberi from the village of --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, what are you seeking to establish by adducing evidence of this kind?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I wish to establish that this corresponds to the reports that were presented here when the head of the European Monitors testified here, Hartwig, that terrorists were conducting terror in the Albanian villages, that they were abducting and killing persons who were ethnic Albanians in order to discipline them. ³⁸⁸³¹ He spoke about that in detail. And it could be seen in the reports of his regional centres that family members of Albanians who were victims came directly to the European Monitors to report that. This completely corresponds to that information that he spoke of, except that he talked about the information that was obtained later.

Here we can see that this information was provided already in August 1998. That is to say, a broad spectrum --

JUDGE ROBINSON: What I want you to do is to fit it into the indictment. I mean, to what does it respond? What is your case in relation to this kind of evidence?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is in direct relationship with that, Mr. Robinson, because you know well that the indictment constantly speaks of some unarmed civilians who perished at the hands of the Serb forces, whereas here we can see in many of these statements that there were armed terrorists there, as well as a large number of Albanians who were victims of the KLA, which means that the unarmed Albanians were killed by the KLA, whereas the police mostly killed armed terrorists. All of this can be seen in the documents that we're discussing right now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that where the indictment alleges that unarmed civilians were killed by the Serbs, your case is that they were killed by the KLA.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I claim that the KLA members who were killed were all terrorists and that among the Albanians who were killed there are a large number of those who were killed by the KLA. So I'm claiming both of these things. ³⁸⁸³²

JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. For example, Mr. Jasovic, on page 3 of this statement, the interviewee, whose name I'm not going to read out, explains that all of the persons from his group were shot to death. You can see that in the penultimate paragraph, last line of this Official Note compiled based on what he stated. It says verbatim: "He explained --"

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, 2.4 relates to August 1998.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, in August of 1998. However, that doesn't mean that the persons who were killed of -- in August of 1998 are not attributed to our police or to our army or to some of our forces, both those who were imprisoned and those who were shot to death.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, is there a particular paragraph in the indictment that makes that allegation?

MR. NICE: I'm not sure at the moment.

MR. KAY: Joint criminal enterprise is said to be from or before October 1998. It leaves open the opportunity for expression before October 1998. It has not been definitely cut off by the Prosecution from a particular point in time.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, I didn't hear that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain something else regarding your question, Mr. Robinson?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. ³⁸⁸³³

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you look at paragraph 66, you will see there a pattern, and the pattern is such that the Serb forces always after the shelling -- this begins way back with Racak, and then under (B) we've Bela Crkva, and then under (C) we have Mala Krusa, and under (D) we have Suva Reka, and so on. So this is a pattern whereby the Serb forces allegedly attacked a village and killed some civilians. In all of the counts of this indictment, counts for murder, it is claimed that the Serb forces attacked some villages and killed some civilians. Then in schedules we have lists from A to -- or, rather, in subparagraphs we have lists of those who were killed. The pattern is completely clear, and it will emerge both through testimonies and through documents namely that wherever the KLA members buried their dead ones, and based on the list you can see that this involves only men, they always told the story about being surrounded and killed by the Serb forces. You will not find a single example of them being killed in combat, no. They always claim that this involves some unarmed civilians, which is absolutely untrue. Not a single policeman killed anyone except for individual cases for which they were legally persecuted. So this entire pattern is a false one.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "prosecuted," not "persecuted."

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I said, Mr. Milosevic, move through the ³⁸⁸³⁴ rest of the tabs as quickly as possible. I'm getting quite concerned, though, Mr. Milosevic, about how you allocate your time in your defence as a whole, because you're now beyond a third of the time allocated to you, and you're still on Kosovo.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which says just what an unrealistic allocation of time you gave me here, and this is in contradiction with your request that we need to cover all of the exhibits in order for them to be admitted.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I said go ahead, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, if you're doing this because you think you need to cover them all to have them admitted, then there is a misunderstanding. It may be that the Prosecutor will try to demonstrate that these documents are not authentic, or he may not, but it's enough for your purposes at the moment for you to have confirmation from the witness that they are, as far as he's concerned, authentic, and then if there are particular issues raised in cross-examination, you would be able to deal with these particular issues later.

But at the moment, I can indicate quite apart from being concerned about the time you're taking to go through this, I can also indicate that to hear what was happening in July and August 1998 doesn't assist me greatly in the decision that's to be made about paragraph 66, which is all related to between January and June 1999.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, it is hard to pull out a period of time and disregard everything that preceded it. However, we will definitely cover the 1999 as well. I believe that 1998 was quite as ^{38835 BLANK PAGE 38836} relevant. But if you say so, Mr. Bonomy, that it will be sufficient now just to establish that these documents are authentic, then in that case I will now turn to just a few more things.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please take a look at tab 15, please. Fifteen, Mr. Jasovic. The information contained here, does it indicate that you acquired information about the training of special units of the KLA in Switzerland? Have you found tab 15, 2.15?

A. Yes. Yes. I've found the information dated the 14th of November, 1998.

Q. Yes. So November 1998, the Verification Mission is already there, and they are preparing for the war. Is it stated here in this report, in this second paragraph, that the commander and the able-bodied KLA members had gone to Switzerland for talks and special training followed by the forming of the special units of the so-called KLA in order to carry out sabotage and terrorist operations in Kosmet? And then it says that Isak Musliu, known as Qerqiz, from the village of Racak, is also in Switzerland. Is that the person who was mentioned as commander in several of your Official Notes and statements?

A. Yes, that's correct. This is indeed Isak Musliu, commander first of the 121st Brigade and their staff in the village of Rance and then commander of the military police whose headquarters was in Ljuzak Mahala, above the village of Petrovo, Stimlje municipality. Now, as for this report, I can tell you that an ethnic Albanian who was temporarily working in Switzerland saw them in uniforms with KLA ³⁸⁸³⁷ insignia.

Q. Very well. At the end of this paragraph it says, "Afet Bilalli was observed three days ago with three other uniformed KLA members in a red Lada Niva near the bridge on Baljevic Mahala on the Stimlje-Racak-Petrovo road in the vicinity of the village of Racak."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. Bonomy, you can see, this is precisely two months before the conflict between the police and the terrorists in Racak, and I assume that it is quite relevant in order to establish that there indeed was a terrorist group in Racak. And then it goes to say that, "According to the operative contact, members of Siptar ethnic minority, that is individuals between 18 and 30 years of age, are being recruited into the so-called KLA. In the area of Stimlje municipality, even younger individuals have been observed walking through the village of Racak and through the forests to the KLA staff in Ljuzak Mahala."

And then it says in the penultimate paragraph on page 1 that, "Members of the KLA, wherever they are, had hand-held rocket launchers, mortars, hand grenades, and other kinds of weapons and ammunition. In addition to that, they also have green coloured grenades on them." Therefore, all of this information in this tab have to do with the activities, with the composition, with the weaponry of terrorists -- terrorist groups in Petrovo, Rance, Racak in the part of Stimlje municipality, which does not cover a large territory.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, is this correct, and if anything else is referred to ³⁸⁸³⁸ in this report, then please tell us so, because I did not have opportunity to read all of these documents.

A. Yes, that's correct. This report deals with this type of information. Based on this report, I can see that the friendly contact stated that the members of the KLA are firing on the road Stimlje-Dulje and also in the villages in the vicinity of Racak.

Q. All right. Very well. Now, let's take a look at tab 2.10, where it says, "On the 16th of September we talked to an ethnic Albanian from the village of Racak, Stimlje municipality, who contacted a member of the KLA and stated the following," and then it goes to say what and where, and then lists a number of names.

A. Yes. A person of ethnic background provided information in this case -- of ethnic Albanian background.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question of identifying the source may arise in relation to this. A few of the previous tab numbers and several of those to come, it's entirely a matter of the Court if it asks the questions, but if it does it may be as well to do it compendiously at a later stage, or tab by tab. I'm neutral.

JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Nice, that that's the first -- 2.15 is the first one where the inquiry hasn't been made. I agree with you that it would be a good idea to wait until the end.

MR. NICE: Yes. I've got some earlier ones. I may have missed a couple; 2.8 and 2.9.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll wait until the end and do them compendiously. ³⁸⁸³⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

JUDGE BONOMY: 2.8, the name is given. I have no recollection of the position on 2.9. Sorry, that's --

MR. NICE: I think not, Your Honour. I think we start at 2.8 and sequentially from there --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.

MR. NICE: Sequentially from 2.8 we have no answers to those questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, in order to save my time, could you please instruct Mr. Nice that you can use the time allocated to him in cross-examination in order to inquire about the source of the information.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think that's perfectly true.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, no, it isn't. With great respect, the accused is taking a great deal of time. That's a matter for his choice, but it's also a matter of his not being organised. He should know that if this material is going to be the subject of cross-examination at some stage, it's his duty to provide the material that is inevitably going to be required. Now, if this witness is able to say, as he is so far, that names may be provided, it might be thought by the accused that that assists his cause, and it's material he's got to get before the Court, because let me make it quite plain, if I'm not able to investigate named providers, I shall have arguments to make about the admissibility of the documents that rely upon them.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's get on. ³⁸⁸⁴⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, can I ask a collective question of this witness with respect to tab 20 -- or, rather, 2 -- tab 2 with 30 documents. It contains 30 documents. Whether they're all authentic documents, can I ask him for all of them together? Whether they're all either Official Notes or reports compiled by the police, as you can see --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and whether each of these official documents is an authentic document of the Ministry of the Interior.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, is that right?

A. Yes. I say with full responsibility that all the documents are authentic ones.

Q. Can we see, Mr. Jasovic, that each of these documents of yours has -- at the top, it says Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, the Secretariat of the Interior Urosevac the heading, is that right, and then it has the number, the official number and the year; is that right? The official number in that year, whether it's 1998 or 1999. And the date when the document was compiled; is that right?

A. Yes, that is right. The heading is Secretariat of the Interior, Urosevac, then we have the date when the information was compiled as well as the official number of the note or report, which is recorded in the archives and books of the Secretariat of the Interior of Urosevac. And the computer or, rather, the head of the -- ³⁸⁸⁴¹

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer there.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, the interpreter is asking you to repeat your answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is this: We have the heading of -- in the Official Note, it says Republic of Serbia, Ministry of the Interior Urosevac, then the date when the information was compiled, the number, the official number of the Official Note or report which is recorded in the books of the Secretariat of the Interior, their archives. And I also added that the person recording the documents, pursuant to the head of SUP of Urosevac, was the head of the crime investigation department, Nedeljkovic Branislav.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your attention to the fact that in tab 2, we have a series of Official Notes which were compiled -- to avoid going back, this is November 1998, then we have in tab 2 the 19th of December, 1998; the 16th of December. That means exactly one month prior to the conflict in Racak. The Official Note refers to Racak itself as well, and it says, "On the 16th of December, 1998, operative contact in Racak informed us that in the KLA in Racak village," et cetera, et cetera. So all that is immediately before the event.

Then you have the 20th of December is tab 2 -- or, rather, 2.20. The date is the 20th of December, 1998.

So, Mr. Robinson, can I, in view of the explanations the witness has given, tender all the documents from 1 to 30 inclusive of tab 2 into ³⁸⁸⁴² evidence?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We note the application, and as we said before, we'll make a decision at the end of the witness's testimony.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, perhaps you'd -- we'll just go through the various tabs with the witness to see whether he can identify the sources. Starting at 2.4?

MR. KAY: 2.8.

JUDGE KWON: 2.8.

MR. KAY: Perhaps we should be in closed session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In private session, please.

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[Open session]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we go back into open session, I'd like to draw your attention, Mr. Robinson, to the fact that where you stopped is the --

JUDGE KWON: We're now in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, anyway, we were doing -- dealing with 12, tab 2.12. It says, "On the basis of information gathered and acquaintances, friends, and other contacts, on the basis conducted interviews and based on information," et cetera. So this is a series of sources that were used in this particular tab for this Official Note to be compiled, because they enumerate, gathered through intelligence, acquaintances, friends and other contacts, which means many different ³⁸⁸⁴⁶ sources. And all that can be seen in the Official Note compiled by the witness together with his colleague. But I understand your instructions and guidelines, and I'd like to go back to my initial request to tender tabs 1 to 30 inclusively into evidence. You told me that you were going to, as far as I understood it, to include it in the material but that you would decide after the witness's testimony has been completed whether you're going to admit them or not. Have I understood you correctly?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you as an inspector of the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac have any knowledge about the fact that policemen, workers in your secretariat with respect to all these more important terrorist attacks, especially terrorist attacks which resulted in the deaths of people or bodily injury of persons, or substantial material damage, did they do a scene of crime investigation? Did they go on the spot to investigate?

A. In most cases, scene of crime investigation did take place. We went on location and investigated, but in certain cases where there were security obstacles, we weren't able to do that.

Q. When you say "security," does that mean that something occurred and then it was dangerous to go to the location, that that was the only reason you didn't do an on-site investigation?

A. Yes, that's precisely it. Because if we knew that a terrorist attack had taken place and that there was no scene of crime investigation, ³⁸⁸⁴⁷ this was because in the surrounding area or in the vicinity of the location there was still KLA members present.

Q. Very well. But for the most part, in the majority of cases scene of crime investigation did take place?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, were these on-site investigations attended by members of the Verification Mission, the OSCE, in how many cases?

A. I think that the members of the Kosovo Verification Mission arrived in the autumn of 1998. And for every terrorist attack, somebody from our secretariat, the duty officer or the -- whoever, would inform the OSCE about the event that had taken place, and in most of the cases they went on the spot to the location.

Q. Thank you. Now tell me this: In addition to events of that kind, that is to say when on-site investigations were conducted, let's leave that to one side for the time being, were members of the Verification Mission invited to attend the planned activities of the members of your Secretariat of the Interior to counteract terrorism, what you did to counteract terrorism?

A. Yes, as far as I know, yes.

Q. And do you know if the members of the Kosovo Verification Mission, whether they were informed about the police operation in Racak and did they attend? Were they there?

A. Linked to the events in Racak, I learnt on the 15th of January that the members of the OSCE were informed of the event.

Q. Did you learn whether they had attended? ³⁸⁸⁴⁸

A. They did attend. They were on the spot.

Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Jasovic, in addition to the information about Racak, in 1998 and 1999 you managed to gather a series of other information pertaining to the activities of the terrorist bands, KLA bands and gangs?

A. Yes, that's true.

JUDGE BONOMY: If you're moving away from Racak, may I ask a question before you do.

Mr. Jasovic, who was the person in command of the MUP group which was involved in the incident in Racak?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the person in command of the MUP group that went to the site?

JUDGE BONOMY: You say that the deaths -- you've told us much earlier in your evidence the deaths were the result of conflict, a combat operation. Who was the leader of the MUP who were involved in that combat operation? That's on the 15th of January.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to that, I can say that I may make a mistake in terms of names. It is probably high-ranking officers that know more about this, specifically Bogoljub Janicevic, the then-head of the SUP secretariat in Urosevac, because I primarily did office work as a crime policeman, and I conducted interviews with persons.

JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, if that's all the assistance you can give. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. You've probably forgotten what I asked you. I asked ³⁸⁸⁴⁹ you, Mr. Jasovic, in addition to the information about Racak, in 1998 and 1999 you compiled significant amounts of information about activities of the terrorists of the KLA.

A. Yes, that is correct. In addition to information pertaining to the KLA headquarters in the village of Racak, we have, and I can safely put it that way, vast information about other areas; Petrastica, Jezerce, the village of Malopoljce, and other villages where KLA headquarters were established. As I've already said, the first headquarters were established in the village of Rance, and then there were substaffs in the surrounding villages that were established, and then the brigade of the operative Nerodimlje zone of the KLA, commanded by Shukri Buja, then this staff was located in Jezerce, then in Malopoljce a staff of the Policia Ushtarake was established, of the military police. And then we heard that a women's staff, commanded by Nasmit Rushani [phoen] from Stana Mahala, near the village of Petrovo.

We also have information for all villages. We have lots of information related to KLA activities in Stimlje and in Urosevac. As for Kacanik, I can say, I think, because I haven't got the documents here in front of me - as I said, I came in connection with a different trial - sometime in the autumn of 1998, the 162nd Brigade, Agim Bajrami, was established in the area of Kacanik. The main headquarters were in the village of Ivaja, municipality of Kacanik. Camil Egazi [phoen], known as Bali, was the commander.

Q. All right, I'll just put a few questions to you in relation to Kacanik, but before that, what is this that is contained in tab 3, ³⁸⁸⁵⁰ Mr. Jasovic? In tab 3 you have a form, as you can see. It says that this is the Urosevac SUP, and there is a number there, "Record of receipt of criminal report." What is this all about? I see that there is the person submitting it, the submitter, that is?

A. Yes.

Q. And also who was present. Authorised officially. It is you and Sparavalo. As for the head of the SUP, he did not sign it but his deputy did, I assume, on his behalf. What is this about, but could you explain it very briefly?

A. I will explain very briefly that an ethnic Albanian, on the 27th of December, 1998, reported a case at his own initiative that on the said day his house had been surrounded by a group of, I think, five or six members of the KLA.

Q. But you have it there. Please have a look at tab 3. You have it right there. This person who submitted the criminal report, can his name not be read out too?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. All right, all right. I'm just asking. Tell us very briefly, then.

A. On that location, KLA Albanian terrorists seized something from his house. I know it was hunting weapons.

Q. All right, all right. This is a criminal report that you received?

A. Yes.

Q. Because here it says, "Authorised official, Dragan Jasovic," and ³⁸⁸⁵¹ then there are other signatures. What about this person who signed this here as a person who was present? Who is that?

A. I think that that is the brother or the father of the said person.

Q. All right. The injured party, his brother or father, and then you as the authorised official, and it was also signed by the deputy head of the secretariat?

A. Yes.

Q. That is one of the reports that was received at your secretariat.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could this please be admitted into evidence? This is also an official document.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, on the same terms. And we have passed the time for the adjournment.

Mr. Jasovic, you must have told us, can you remind me, where do you live now?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live [Realtime transcript read in error "believe"] In Kragujevac. I reside in Kragujevac, but Urosevac is basically my place of permanent residence. As a displaced person, I live in Kragujevac, since the 12th of June, 1999.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there must be a mistake. In the transcript it says that the witness says that he believes in Kragujevac.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That should be "I live." You can only believe if you live.

Well, we'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., ³⁸⁸⁵² to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.