³⁸⁹²⁹

Wednesday, 4 May 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Before the accused calls his next witness, I wonder if I might make a very short submission on a procedural matter stimulated by reading the filing of the accused's legal associate in respect of a proposed witness, Henning Hensch. As to that application I say very little beyond that the 65 ter summary hardly explains the need to call the witness and the fleshing out of that summary by what is obtained on 7(B), where it is said that he will provide testimony of value in respect of the Croatian and Bosnian parts of the indictment, comes without particulars. We made it clear that we are neutral as to how the accused spends his 150 allocated days and would in principle leave this application entirely to the Chamber, but we have concerns arising from the passage of time and the seeming marginal value, at best, of this type of witness. And I invite the Chamber to consider the desirability of doing the following with the accused: Might the Chamber now, or soon, invite him to identify for all three indictments what are the witnesses he regards as absolutely essential.

I can't help but observe that the witness intending to come now is going to last, it is expected, over five hours in chief, the next witness 12 hours in chief, and we are still not out of Kosovo. There are plainly witnesses who the accused regards as essential and who are going to take a ³⁸⁹³⁰ very great deal of time. There may also be international witnesses whom he has applied to call and who may come and who will themselves take a great deal of time, and our concerns include that if witnesses of marginal value are called now and at a later stage in the programme of the accused calling witnesses he applies to call witnesses who he says are essential and who would seem to be more important, then it may be more difficult for the Chamber to resist an application for an extension. We, when we were aware of our timetable limitations, kept the Chamber notified of what we regarded as our must-be-called witnesses. We re-jigged the witness list as time developed, moving witnesses from category A or priority 1 to a lower category, and the Chamber and accused and the amici were in a position to know how things stood because we had a settled intention, of course, to comply with the Chamber's order. Might it now be sensible at some stage to get from the accused a list of those witnesses who he regards as absolutely essential, for we might find that they would consume the remainder of the time available to him.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the matter. Mr. Milosevic, did you want -- unless you wanted to say something in reply to that, we will hear your next witness, Mr. Paponjak.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly. I do not have before me this document that Mr. Nice was looking at, but I know that Henning Hensch, a German policeman who was a member of the Verification Commission ³⁸⁹³¹ in Kosovo, the fact that he was on various missions in Bosnia before that does not mean that's going to testify about that. He will testify only marginally. He's a brief witness. He was a verifier in Kosovo. You had the opportunity of hearing Hartwig, who was the head of the European monitors. This was a man who was a member of the Verification Mission, also a German - that happens to be a pure coincidence - so I thought it would be necessary for him to be called.

As for what Mr. Nice said, that there are witnesses who will be testifying longer, that is precisely to save time. Rather than call a larger number of witnesses to testify about certain number of matters, I call a smaller number of witnesses who then have to testify at greater length in order to have a clear picture of what happened. For example, the witness who we're calling today is the head of the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, covering a number of municipalities. I'm not going to call all seven heads of Secretariats of the Interior from Kosovo. I'm calling only one of them in order to see the entirety of one secretariat.

The next witness, General Stevanovic, will then be testifying about all of Kosovo and Metohija. So we take a secretariat in its entirety and then we deal with all of Kosovo rather than spend more time by calling several witnesses. That is why these witnesses have more documents that will be tendered through them, and they will be testifying for longer periods of time, but all of it in order to save time.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We have your application in relation to the witness Hensch, and we are considering it. In relation to ³⁸⁹³² General Stevanovic, it occurs to the Chamber that you might provide a little more information than you have done, than you have. In your 65 ter you have references, the usual references to personal knowledge. For example, the areas of the indictment in relation to which the witness will testify would be very helpful. You have him scheduled for 12 hours. That's very long, and it would help to streamline matters and to manage the evidence better if some more information was provided. Your next witness, then, is General Stevanovic -- sorry, is Radovan Paponjak.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

WITNESS: RADOVAN PAPONJAK

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may commence, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.

A. Good morning, Mr. President.

Q. Could you please state very briefly where and when you were born ³⁸⁹³³ and what kind of education you've had.

A. I was born on the 1st of May, 1948, in Rudo. I completed elementary school, secondary school, Teacher's College in Foca, then the Academy of Pedagogy in Uzice, and in Belgrade I got a university degree at the department for the resocialisation of persons in a social context.

Q. Where did you work?

A. I worked in the Secretariat of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia. I started out as an ordinary policeman on the beat, and I ended up as head of the municipal Secretariat of the Interior. Depending on the work I did, I had different ranks.

Q. We have very little time. You had the rank of colonel when you were head of the municipal Secretariat of the Interior; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. We are going to move on to your professional activities straight away in relation to Kosovo and Metohija. Tell me, what were your duties at the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec from 1992 when you were assigned to work there?

A. I was head of the department of the traffic police at the SUP in Pec. I was in charge of organising and regulating traffic. That is police work in this respect. Then also traffic related security, also carried out by members of the traffic police; the organisation of administrative affairs, meaning the registration of vehicles and the issuing of drivers' licenses; then administration and inspection of traffic; training candidates for driver's examinations; and also centres for the technical examination of vehicles. ³⁸⁹³⁴

Q. In relation to all these duties, were you also -- were you in charge of Pec only, the municipality of Pec only, or were you in charge of those matters in other municipalities as well?

A. My headquarters was in Pec, and I was in charge of Pec, Djakovica, Decani, Istok, and Klina; those municipalities respectively.

Q. So the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec covers Djakovica, Pec, Istok and Klina?

A. Yes, that's the way it was at the time.

Q. Do you know what the structure of employees was in the municipal Secretariat of the Interior in Pec?

A. If you meant the ethnic structure, the ethnic composition, there were people with all ethnic backgrounds there; Serbs, Albanians, Muslims, Roma.

Q. Do you remember the names of Albanians who held some of the top positions in Pec, if we can give that by way of an example?

A. The deputy head of state security was Deme Mulaj, an Albanian. Also, there were a few operations officers in the state security. The head of the department for communications, that's a very important department, was Ahmetaj Skender, another Albanian. There were several operations officers in the crime prevention police. I remember Hamdi Ram, Kelmendi Enver. The commander of the police in Kijevo was Becir Gashi, another Albanian. The deputy commander of the fire-fighting company was an Albanian, Nikaj Barlo. There were policemen --

Q. All right, that will do, the examples that you can give us from memory. ³⁸⁹³⁵ Colonel Paponjak, I'm going to read out paragraph 87 to you, which states as follows. I'm not going to read all of it, but it says: "Towards the end of 1990 and in 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian doctors, teachers, professors, workers, police and civil servants --" I'm emphasising police because I'm going to ask you about them only -- "were dismissed from their positions."

Tell me, please, were Albanians dismissed from the service because of their ethnic background? I'm not asking you for any general questions, I'm asking you about policemen because you worked there.

A. No. That is simply incorrect. While I worked in Pec, I was president of the disciplinary chamber, that is to say that is a council that decides on the dismissal of policemen. Ethnic background was not a precondition for admission or dismissal. There is a prescribed procedure involved.

Q. All right. I understand that. I hope that that is common knowledge. But specifically, you said now that you were president of the disciplinary council that dealt with dismissals of policemen from work if they violated their professional duties. How long did you do that, how many years?

A. Throughout my stay there.

Q. All right. During your practice, how many Albanians were dismissed while you were president of this disciplinary council?

A. Not a single one.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. And what about the employees in these centres? ³⁸⁹³⁶

JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just be clear; what was the period that you spent in office in Pec?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After I arrived there.

JUDGE BONOMY: I thought you said you went there in 1992. I was just trying to be clear about the date.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I cannot give you the exact date now when I was appointed president of the disciplinary council, but that was soon after my arrival there. This is a well-known thing. I mean, the term of office is four years.

JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but was that after 1991 or was it -- were you there during 1991?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 1992.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, I asked you on to mention all the Albanians who were in important positions, and that has to do with the period when you were there, isn't that correct?

A. Yes, absolutely. I would not have known them had it not been from that period.

Q. All right. You talked about technical centres related to traffic and your duties as head of the traffic police for those five municipalities. What about the employees in these centres? What was their background?

A. Similar to that in the SUP of Pec; Serbs, Albanians, Muslims. There were five of these centres, five. Three were socially owned and ³⁸⁹³⁷ with mixed ownership, and two were privately owned. The owner of one of these in Istok was a Serb, and in the municipality of Klina, Latif Kryeziu, an Albanian, owned the technical centre there. I remember his name and surname because I knew him personally. There were Albanian employees in the social centre, in the technical centre. Biluci Fatmir [phoen], for example, was in that technical -- one of employees there.

Q. And as far as driving lessons are concerned and this entire procedure?

A. According to regulations, they are called centres for the training of drivers, and there were 18 such centres. Two were socially owned, one was of mixed ownership, and 15 were privately owned. Many of these centres were owned by Albanians, then other centres were owned by Serbs, Muslims, Roma. That was not a criterion in granting licenses for these technical centres for the examination of vehicles. There was simply certain criteria that had to be met. Whoever would meet these criteria would, as a matter of course, get a licence to run that kind of centre, and such persons had to meet certain requirements. My department and I were supposed to see whether they abided by regulations, by the law, and nobody meddled in their affairs in terms of who they would employ.

Q. Who were the instructors?

A. The instructors were persons who were licensed to be driving instructors. There were Serbs, Albanians, Romas. I can give you from memory perhaps some of the centres that employed Albanians. For example, Lloxha. The owner was Qazim Shala. Marlboro was owned by Faik Raci. ³⁸⁹³⁸ Orion was owned by the Haskaj brothers. Vem was owned by Lukaj Xhafer.

Q. All right, you don't have to give us any more names.

A. Well, I cannot remember all of them, perhaps, but I do know all of them because I worked with all of them.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. Tell me, was there any discrimination against Albanians when personal documents were issued and when various decisions were supposed to be reached by the municipal secretariat in Pec?

A. No, there was no discrimination whatsoever. While I worked there, I made every effort to have all citizens be equal before the law and to apply regulations strictly to the letter. All those who met certain requirements would receive appropriate documents or decisions, and those who did not meet the requirements could not get these decisions or documents, regardless of whether they were Serbs or Albanians. Later on during the course of my work, the organisation was as follows: Citizens could submit their requests at the centre for the technical examination of vehicles - they didn't even have to come to the SUP - and they would get the appropriate documents. They would go there, they would submit their requests, then the person from the technical centre would go to the SUP, do whatever was necessary, and then the applicant would get documents he needed.

I remember that even among the Serbs, people thought that it was the Albanians who were favoured. One Serb launched a complaint with the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia in Belgrade because it was in charge in the second instance. I was in charge in the first instance. And in this complaint, the person said that we did not allow ³⁸⁹³⁹ him to operate his own technical centre whereas the Albanian Latif Kryeziu was granted this possibility as soon as he submitted such a request. Of course this was not a justified complaint because he did not meet the necessary requirements. A record was made of all the requirements that he was supposed to meet and did not, whereas the Albanian, Kryeziu, had simply met all the necessary requirements.

Therefore, I'm not aware of a single case of discrimination, and I did not have any complaints from citizens. At every desk there was information as to what was necessary, what documents were needed in order to obtain other documents, and also there were deadlines in terms of how much time was needed to obtain a particular document, and persons could ask by telephone or directly, and my telephone was there, too, and they could address me in person.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Paponjak. Next question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. How would you qualify the security situation in Kosovo and Metohija at the moment when you joined the service in Pec?

A. When I joined the service in Pec, the situation was relatively quiet. I think I can say it was quieter than in other areas of the SFRY.

Q. Did you have friends or colleagues among Albanians? You came there as a chief. Did you find friends among Albanians, associates?

A. The situation I found was that there were firmly established links of friendships -- of friendship between Serbs and Albanians, Serb and Albanian families, and I soon found friends there, too, perhaps because of my job and my work, which was very positively assessed by my superiors and ^{38940 BLANK PAGE 38941} competent authorities.

I met with Albanians frequently, socialised with them, had drinks and meals together with them in both Serb and Albanian establishments. To this day, I have a considerable number of friends among Albanians. I still talk to them on the phone and still see them. Unfortunately, I can only see them on the territory of Serbia, not in Kosovo and Metohija, because I am not able to go there any more, just like many Serbs can't.

Q. Was it only shop talk or did you discuss other subjects as well?

A. No, we discussed everything, every possible subject; life as such. It was a very difficult time. It was the time when Yugoslavia was breaking up. In some areas of Yugoslavia there was fighting. It weighed very heavily on people's minds. They were thinking of how it would reflect on Kosovo and Metohija, what would happen there. This thought never left either Serbs or Albanians.

Q. And what did those people tell you about the political situation when you talked to them?

A. They were concerned. Some who were close to me told me that the future they were seeing was not very bright. They were telling me that certain forces in Kosovo and Metohija had decided that the time was coming from them -- for them to achieve some of their aspirations regarding the independence of Kosovo. They told me that Serbs have a wrong interpretation concerning the establishment of a Greater Albania. They told me that the idea was to first create a Republic of Kosovo and later annex some parts of Montenegro, Macedonia, some parts of what they called Eastern Kosovo, that is some parts of Serbia, Southern Serbia, and only ³⁸⁹⁴² later join this republic with Albania, not to have Albania annex this Kosovo. In their vision, Kosovo was the pivot, the linchpin of this creation.

Q. Very well, Colonel. Tell me, was there any terrorist activity in the zone of your competence in the period before 1996?

A. Yes, there was. There was terrorist activity, and there were terrorist acts even before 1996. I believe it began sometime in 1995, perhaps a bit earlier, but I certainly remember that there was terrorist activity in 1995.

Q. Can you remember a particular incident?

A. The reason I remember 1995 is that I remember a particular policeman, Predrag Ivanovic. I believe it was in early 1995, in the month of March, I think, that he was going back home from work when he was shot in the back. He was hit in the spine and in the head. He was very seriously injured. The attackers had fled. He is disabled to this day, tied to his wheelchair, and I still see him occasionally. Two months after that, I believe it was in May, two explosive devices that had been planted in Junik exploded. Junik was a settlement specially built for Serb refugees from Albania.

Sometime later, in the summer, August perhaps, a police station in Rznic, a police section in Rznic near Decani was attacked, and two policemen were injured, Agim Hadrija, and Ljubomir Ristic.

Q. Very well, Colonel. So two policemen were wounded. As far as I can discern from the names, one was Albanian, the other was Serb.

A. Yes. ³⁸⁹⁴³

Q. All these attacks were unprovoked. This first man was going home from work when he was shot, then the police station was attacked, and bombs exploded in this refugee camp. There was no provocation, no reason for these attacks.

A. Yes. These were very perfidious attacks, totally unprovoked.

Q. What would you say? Why was it that it was policemen who were refugees that were the targets of these attacks?

A. That was an aspect of our job. The role of the police is to protect the personal safety and the property of the citizens, and it is quite normal that the first target of attack should be the police. In this case involving refugees from Albania, the idea was to show them that they were not welcome in this area and to prevent other Serbs from coming.

Q. How did you and your colleagues assess some common features of these attacks, if any? How did you establish them?

A. One could notice straight away that these incidents were atypical for the general picture of crime. There was no direct provocation or reason. The attacks were perfidious and would become even more perfidious in the future after that. It was usually with the use of explosives, especially in the area of Pec. A lot of attacks involved the throwing of hand grenades and the planting of explosive devices during the night when the victims were off guard. Another feature was that these attacks had all aspects of organised activity against specific targets.

Q. You mentioned all these incidents, and I would like to ask you, how did you find about them? Did you learn of them as soon as they happened or later? ³⁸⁹⁴⁴

A. In the greatest number of cases I would learn immediately, because in the greatest number of areas the target was a policeman, and we were placed in a certain degree of alert. Our duty, one of our duties was to secure various facilities and buildings against organised attacks in a broad area.

Q. That much is clear to me. So you would learn immediately of every incident that happened.

Are you aware of any terrorist activity in the area of Pec in 1996?

A. Yes, I am. For instance, in February 1996, at the very beginning of the year, we had an attack carried out against a building housing refugees from the Republic of Serbian Krajina. The attack happened in the evening, and in this case, too, an explosive device exploded. We were placed in a state of alert.

We learnt that a simultaneous attack took place in Pristina and in Kosovska Mitrovica against buildings of the similar purpose, housing refugees. So after that, we had to secure all buildings we thought were at risk.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. Do you know of any terrorist attacks -- in fact, do you know of the terrorist attack against the Cakor cafe in Decani?

A. That happened sometime in spring 1996, in April.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, to what areas of the indictment does this evidence relate?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is relevant to ³⁸⁹⁴⁵ the entire situation in Kosovo and Metohija and the evolution of terrorist attacks and crimes committed against policemen and civilians and everything that followed. It goes to the whole background of the situation in Kosovo. We are dealing here with one Secretariat of the Interior that covered five municipalities, but it is relevant to the entirety of the events involved.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Its relevance -- if there is any relevance, it's of a very general nature, Mr. Milosevic. You have not been able to identify -- or you have not identified any specific paragraph to which this relates. I mean, to say that it's background material is really not sufficient unless you can pinpoint a specific paragraph to which it relates.

I'm not going to allow any more questioning along this line, because we have had enough background material in relation to Kosovo. So bring the witness to evidence that is relevant to the charges that you face.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in what you call the indictment and the charges against me, there is a whole list of casualties and victims wherein every death of an Albanian is ascribed to Serbian forces. The wording used is "the forces of SFRY and Serbia" throughout the text, and I'm trying to establish through this witness, among other things, the way terrorist groups treated Albanians who tried to lead a normal life, how many victims there were among this part of the population.

This witness will be speaking about Istok municipality. He will ³⁸⁹⁴⁶ be speaking about the bombing of the correctional centre of Dubrava. In this indictment, among other things, I'm charged with the killing of prisoners in this correctional centre in Dubrava. We will have to go through that in detail to see what actually happened. So there are many, many things that go to the reality of what happened as opposed to the fabricated accusations against the authorities in Serbia.

JUDGE ROBINSON: But as I said, Mr. Milosevic, bring the witness to relevant evidence. Let us get beyond your stock answer.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope that you are able to see, on the basis of what the witness has been saying, that the attacks were not caused or provoked by anything, that they were underhand, perfidious attacks on people, on policemen, on civilians, quite simply because they were Serbs. Refugees from Albania were attacked. A policeman on his way home was attacked. A cafe was blown up. So these are terrorist activities that have the goals that I've explained to you, and the witness is testifying about this, and you can see that he confirms it, confirms these facts on the basis of his testimony. But let me move on --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Terrorist activities by themselves are not relevant unless they relate to a specific charge in the indictment. We have been through this before.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Robinson?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You can continue, but it has to be relevant evidence. ³⁸⁹⁴⁷

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, what was the relationship of the terrorists towards the Albanians who were ordinary citizens? We often used to refer to them as "loyal citizens," that is to say people who quite simply lived a normal life in that part of the world. What was the relationship towards them, the attitude towards them?

A. The terrorists attacked them too. They did their best to change their behaviour, to discipline them, and to turn them around and to entice them to their side and to have them support them. And there were many cases of the killing of Albanians precisely because they worked in state organs or publicly socialised with Serbs. That happened in 1997 and in 1998. Things like that were going on, and I can quote examples if you desire and if the Trial Chamber will allow me to do so.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, now that would be relevant if there are charges in the indictment or paragraphs in the indictment which allege that Serb forces attacked and killed Albanians, and your response to that was that the Albanians were not killed by Serb forces but, rather, by -- by KLA, the KLA terrorists. That is how it would become relevant, but not in some very general and overall manner, because an indictment is a specific -- specific instrument.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand you, Mr. Robinson. However, as you can see, there is a sort of diagram, plan, schematic according to which this terrorist organisation that referred to itself as the KLA, and you were able to see that during the testimony of Mr. Hartwig, who was the head of the observer mission of the European ³⁸⁹⁴⁸ Union, and they were terrorising the Albanian population in Albanian villages, and killed people, kidnapped people, and did what they could do harness the Albanian population and place them under their control and terror. And all the people who were in Kosovo and Metohija and all the casualties and victims are being ascribed to some sort of Serb terror and arbitrary behaviour and crimes and so on, whereas the opposite is true. The situation was quite the opposite.

So we're not talking about individual charges with names and surnames. Of course there's that too. There is that as well. But we're talking about a general situation which was an ongoing one. And there were more Albanians killed in 1998 than there were Serbs, by the KLA, and there are facts and figures to bear that out.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Bring us to 1998.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let's just clear one point up before we do so. Colonel, tell us, please, to the best of your recollections and knowledge, from what time onwards did the terrorist organisation the KLA act publicly? I don't mean publicly in the sense of conflicts, but openly by making proclamations and saying that they had in fact committed certain actions? When did they go public, to the best of your knowledge?

A. Well, I've known about this since 1997, the end of 1997, in my particular area. That's when they began to appear in public.

Q. What do you mean when you say "public"?

A. It means they were appearing in uniforms. You could see them armed. They said that they were the popular army, the national army of ³⁸⁹⁴⁹ Kosovo. They said that about themselves. They were exercising control, first of all in ethnically pure villages that were further away from the towns, and then they moved closer into the towns. And finally, at the end of 1997, they started, in the afternoon hours and early evening hours, to exercise control over the roads. They would stop vehicles moving along those roads and exert control there. And they mistreated Serbs and told them not to use those roads any more. It was the Klina-Srbica communications lines, and in the evening they would exercise control over those roads and those communications lines. And the Serbs would come to us and report that they had been mistreated, that they had been stopped, that they -- there was -- they had hand grenades and other weapons, and there were among those examples there was the families of Asanin and Bakic. Sixteen members of those families coming back from the Devic monastery one night in mid-December when they were stopped and Jugoslav Asanin's vehicle was riddled with bullets. There were ten children in the vehicle. They kept them there for ten hours and then they let them go but told them not to go along that road again because that whole area was allegedly under the control of the popular army or national army of Kosovo, as they put it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's always misunderstanding in translations when we say in our language "rucni bacac," a hand-held launcher. It is a hand-held rocket launcher, in fact. A launcher. "Hand-held rocket launcher" is the translation. There was mention of a hand grenade whereas in fact the translation is a hand-held rocket launcher. When the Colonel said what they were armed with, they were ³⁸⁹⁵⁰ armed with automatic rifles and hand-held rocket launchers.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is a barrel that is placed on the shoulder and it is a hand-held rocket launcher.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The literal translation is "hand mortar" but it is a hand-held rocket launcher, although it's difficult to translate it literally, but that's the equivalent of what it is in our language. You have just told us that they appeared publicly and openly, and from what you said, they appeared where there was no police, in areas where there was no police, that is to say in the further-off Albanian villages and so on.

Now, were there any attacks on the police in the Pec area in 1997, for instance?

A. Yes. Yes, there were several attacks, and I am going to talk about three attacks because they were police stations that had previously been attacked. The one in Rznic, for example, on two occasions in August and September 1997, Rznic station was attacked. In August the attack was refuted but in September they launched that police department very vigorously and the fighting went on for quite some time, and a policeman was killed. His name was Dragic Davidovic, and two other policemen were wounded on that occasion. They sustained serious injuries. And in the clash a terrorist, one of the terrorists was killed too. I think his name was Jocaj. And another police department was also attacked and that was the Klincina police station, and that attack occurred in mid-October 1997 in the evening, during the night, and this attack was launched by a group ³⁸⁹⁵¹ led by Kelmendi and Krasniqi. Qerim Krasniqi -- Adrian Krasniqi and Qerim Kelmendi, they were the leaders of the groups that launched most of the attacks in the surrounding parts of Pec. And in refuting the attack, the leader of the group, Krasniqi, was killed. Adrian Krasniqi, as I say, was an intimate associate of Ramush Haradinaj, for example, and a large-scale funeral was organised and more than 15.000 Albanians attended the funeral. They took their oaths of loyalty there and recruited new men, and the 133rd Brigade of the Liberation Army of Kosovo, the KLA, was given the name of the 133rd Brigade of the KLA and it took the name of Adrian Krasniqi. And part of the Kosovo Protection Corps now carries that same name. Ramush Haradinaj wrote about it in very positive terms and glorified the group, although he was a terrorist who at the time attacked peaceable, law abiding citizens. And he was killed during this attack on the police station of the SUP of Pec, that is to say the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, one of its departments.

Q. So that particular police station was the one in Klincina, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. So they attacked the police station there, and during that attack the police -- some policemen were killed in defending their police station; is that what happened?

A. Yes, precisely.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, stop a minute. I have to consider with my brothers the relevance of this evidence.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay? ^{38952 BLANK PAGE 38953}

MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honours, paragraph 93 of the indictment, which alleges: "In mid-1996, the KLA began launching attacks primarily targeting Serbian police forces." We've heard evidence of that through this witness.

And the allegation after that, which is an allegation that has been emphasised by the Prosecution throughout the trial, "Thereafter, and throughout 1997, Serbian police forces responded with forceful operations against suspected KLA bases and supporters in Kosovo." In fact, the Prosecution often exceed that language when they cross-examine and deal with these issues.

The evidence we just heard from this witness was that they were defending the police station, that some policemen were killed defending their police station, and Your Honour interjected. So on the issue of proportionate response to what was taking place in the public life and civil life of those in Kosovo at the time, this can be material evidence if crafted and directed towards the issue of the proportionality of response to attacks.

JUDGE BONOMY: That's certainly not the way in which the examination's being conducted. The examination's being conducted to prove what's already averred by the Prosecution. And with time at stake it seems such a pointless exercise to concentrate on this instead of getting to the meat of the material on which the accused says the witness can speak directly, such as Dubrava Prison, things that really matter to the indictment rather than to the political issues which the accused might also have in his mind. ³⁸⁹⁵⁴

MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: And events in Istok.

MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm aware of that.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Kay has come to your rescue again, but it is, nonetheless, background material. You should bring the witness, as Judge Bonomy says, to the meat of the issues. You have charges relating to Istok. That's paragraph (F). On page 29, you have charges relating to Dubrava Prison, and the witness can testify to those matters which are far more central to the indictment than these events in 1997. And you have scheduled the witness for five hours, and this witness could be completed today if you manage the -- his testimony efficiently. So come to the central issues.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall try and focus on the information given by the witness and the documents compiled by the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. But before we do so, what was quoted a moment ago, that, "In mid-1996, the KLA organised attacks primarily aimed at the police forces of Serbia," and then, Colonel, it says from that time on, from mid-1996 and throughout 1997, the police forces of Serbia retaliated with forceful action where they assumed that the KLA had their bases and their sympathisers in Kosovo. Now -- and supporters in Kosovo. That is paragraph 93. ³⁸⁹⁵⁵ Do you know that there were any such actions with the police retaliating against the KLA bases and supporters in Kosovo?

A. No, there was no such operation at all.

Q. Thank you. That is enough, to save time. So there was none of this. And what it says here is incorrect; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec drafted a series of reports for the area under its authority; is that right?

A. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this information and these reports, Mr. Robinson, and please bear this in mind, refer to the period from the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001. That is the material period.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, Colonel, that information, those reports, are they to be found in this binder here and the tabs?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you have all received the tabs. I'm sure you have them next to your seats or tables. Take up the binders, please, the first binder, in fact. And you will find them in tab 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, as to these documents, I better make our position clear. We received a bundle of originals last week on the 26th. They weren't divided or tabbed in any way. At that time, I think there were no translations provided. We worked on the documents so far as ³⁸⁹⁵⁶ possible with B/C/S speakers, but it wasn't possible to achieve very much nor was it possible to know precisely how the documents were going to be ordered and so on.

We received the tabbed versions last night, and I understand that at the moment there are some 17 or possibly 18 of the tabs that have been translated into English of a total of -- is it really 175 tabs? Some -- over 170 tabs.

Now, that's obviously difficult or impossible for us to deal with today. We're reluctant to seek to exclude material that may either, A, help the accused; or B, enable us, when we can explore it, to help the Chamber by provision of a full picture of events, but the present position is very difficult for us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice. Mr. Milosevic, let us just deal very quickly with this, the tabs, another procedural matter. 175 tabs and only a tenth of them translated. What is the explanation for that? This goes to the efficient management of the case.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll give you a very simple explanation. However, before I give this explanation, could you please have a look at this. I hope that you have a survey of all these tabs, and there is a separate heading "Comments," when the documents were submitted for translation.

Now, whether it's been translated or not is really a question of time, Mr. Robinson. I am aware of the fact that you do not take into account the problem of time when I am concerned, but you should take it ³⁸⁹⁵⁷ into account when the translators are concerned.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There is no basis for saying that. That is wholly unacceptable to say that the Chamber does not take account of time where you're concerned.

But a quick glance at these comments shows that most of these were submitted on the 20th or 21st of April. Today is the 4th of May. So that's a period of two weeks, and you know that that is not enough time, Mr. Milosevic.

I have made inquiries, and I've been told that you get special treatment, most favoured treatment in the translation section of the Tribunal. There is no other accused that gets as favourable treatment as you do. But to send so many documents to the Translation Unit a mere two weeks before the witness is supposed to testify is not good management. They should be sent at least a month before, and we have discussed that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, maximum efforts were made and measures taken for the witness to receive these documents in good time. I even have a certificate from the Ministry of the Interior, the secretariat in Pec, dated the 18th of April, and it can be seen from here that it was only on the 18th of April that these documents were submitted to the witness. And then the relevant documents are mentioned, various tables, surveys, lists of documents that were handed over to the witness, everything that has to do with the Pec secretariat. The last time I showed you on the ELMO a certificate stating that some documents were requested in January 2004, and they were only made available towards the end of March this year, so with a delay of 14 months ³⁸⁹⁵⁸ altogether. Therefore, evidently there are problems of this kind. So I hope that any rational person has to take these problems into account.

JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're now saying, Mr. Milosevic, is that the explanation is that your request for the documents from the relevant ministries was not complied with in sufficient time for you to submit the documents for translation. I have a note here which shows that 68 documents were submitted for translation on the 21st of April and the 2nd of May and accepted for translation with deadlines of the 2nd, the 9th, and 23rd of May.

We will have to consider what to do with these, how to proceed with so many documents untranslated.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have flooded us with documents here. What we'll do is we'll consider the admission of the documents on the basis of their relevance, and if we consider them relevant, then those that are untranslated we'll mark for identification. I take into account that the Prosecution is not objecting, and I note that a number -- in relation to a number of the documents you were told that -- not to submit them because there was no capacity to translate those documents on time. So let us proceed singly. We'll give a number to the binder. What will that be?

THE REGISTRAR: It will be D297.

JUDGE ROBINSON: D297. For example, Mr. Milosevic, relevance will have to be established, obviously, in relation to those documents that relate to 2000, 2001, and 2002. So let us proceed on that basis. ³⁸⁹⁵⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I hope that we will manage to deal with all of this very successfully. However, I hope that you bear in mind the fact that I am also flooded with documents.

If you look at the information available, you will see that I did not omit a single day in terms of work. I either receive witnesses or I receive documents. As you know, I work along parallel lines. I receive documents and I talk to witnesses. However, it is impossible before reviewing the relevant documents to talk to witnesses to see what the relevance of the documents concerned is and also what is the volume of documents accompanying a particular witness.

JUDGE BONOMY: That's simply because you don't use your resources properly.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Bonomy. My resources are a certain number of hours per day. I cannot have more hours per day than there are within a day, and I am my own resource.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, does this contain information from the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. On whose orders were these reports compiled?

A. At the orders of the Ministry of the Interior. The methodology required, that is.

Q. What was the reason for writing these reports?

A. After withdrawing from Kosovo and Metohija, documents were taken ³⁸⁹⁶⁰ out under rather difficult conditions in terms of transportation restrictions and insufficient personnel. The Pec documentation was transported to Kragujevac and put in warehouses but not in proper order. They were just piled up as they were unloaded from vehicles. Then these documents had to be brought in proper order.

These documents that were compiled while we lived and worked there, these documents had to be found, categorised, put in appropriate files. If there were no files, then new files had to be opened, and then all of this had to be tied up to a particular case. It was only then that proper work could start.

The objective of this work was to create a basis to register all these cases in a proper way, to round up all the cases, to take measures to clarify these events, all the crimes concerned, and to find the perpetrators of these crimes and to make the necessary submissions to the Office of the Prosecutor.

Q. All right. Let us deal first with this information or report in relation to armed conflicts in the territory of the SUP of Pec in the period from the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001. It is in tab 1. From 1.1 to 1.6, that is.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just explain something to you, gentlemen. This tab number 1 is a comprehensive piece of information from the Ministry of Interior in Pec. My associates inform me, however, that upon the request of the translation service, it had to be subdivided into a few parts. That is why it is all tab 1 but from 1.1 to 1.6. However, it is a single document which I have in the original here as ³⁸⁹⁶¹ handed over to me by the witness. And here the document was subdivided in six different tabs.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let us just deal with one more question. Are you the signatory of this piece of information, this report?

A. Yes.

Q. In addition to having signed this report as the chief of the secretariat of Pec, did you take part in its elaboration?

A. Yes, from the beginning to the end. I was in charge of this within the Pec secretariat, and I took part in the work involved. I had many of these documents in my own hand and I dealt with them.

Q. Do you have any immediate knowledge about the events that this report speaks of?

A. I have immediate, direct knowledge of some of these events because I was an observer or participant.

Q. You said "some events." And what about those events where you do not have any direct knowledge? Did you learn about them through official reports that you received on the basis of the office you held?

A. Yes. That is within the scope of the regulations governing the Ministry of the Interior. Every morning there are working meetings that are held, and the heads of all departments take part in these meetings. Security related matters are discussed at these meetings, and events from the previous period are looked at, and then agendas for that day and the following day are established in terms of what should be done.

Q. Thank you. During the proofing, you told me that this document ³⁸⁹⁶² bears the heading "Information on security related events with lethal consequences as a result of armed conflicts in the territory of the SUP Pec in the period from the 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001." You said that it is not very precise.

A. Yes. It's rather clumsy too. Security related events with lethal consequences differ. Lethal consequences can follow in different ways. It would be more correct to call it "Information about security related events with lethal consequences at the time of armed conflicts in the territory of the SUP of Pec in the period from the 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001," because this includes all events with lethal consequences that took place in that period, regardless of whether they are related to armed conflicts or not.

For example, there are natural deaths in hospitals, then also there are drownings in rivers, suicides that were established beyond any reasonable doubt. However, they were included in this paper in order to have a final figure. This was an attempt to have a final figure of all the lethal consequences at the time, the number of corpses involved, and information as to where the said persons were buried.

Q. All right. It would be precise to say with lethal consequences at the time between the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001?

A. Absolutely.

Q. So this includes all information involving loss of life, regardless of whether it is related to armed conflicts or not.

A. Absolutely.

Q. Just tell me, what does this particular mark mean? What does ³⁸⁹⁶³ A/III mean? It appears on the front page and later on also when the file is set out.

A. The documents that we have before us are one part of the dossier on Kosovo and Metohija made in the secretariat. It includes documents from other SUPs in the territory of Kosovo. This dossier contains several chapters related to a variety of subjects. The letter A means that incidents involving loss of life are concerned. This Roman III means that it comes from the SUP of Pec.

Q. Thank you very much. We've clarified this. I wanted absolute precision here because Mr. Kwon asked a couple of days ago what this mark on a certain document means. So A means involving loss of life, and Roman III means coming from the SUP of Pec.

A. Some letters mean loss of Serb life, some marks mean loss of Serbian life, and III means coming from the SUP of Pec.

Q. So what kind of information is contained here?

A. This is the kind of basic document that we call a brief. It contains a general survey that should inform a person who holds it for the first time in their hands of the general trends and the general situation prevailing at the time.

Q. What is the correlation between the textual parts of this brief and the other parts?

A. The textual part is made on the basis of the other parts; lists and tables. There may be certain discrepancies between the two depending on the time in which each of the parts was compiled, but these discrepancies are minor. They're not important. ^{38964 BLANK PAGE 38965} Security matters are of such nature that you may find about something subsequently to the event, and you can update the list or the table without updating the text.

Q. How do you subdivide these terrorist acts and the loss of life involved in this brief?

A. Terrorist activity must be divided into several periods. The first period is terrorist activity prior to 1998; that is, from the beginning of the 1990s until approximately 1998. The second period is the escalation of terrorism in the course of 1998, which is a fact often neglected.

The following period is the period of KVM presence in Kosovo; and the period after that is the NATO aggression against Kosovo in 1999; and the last period is post-NATO aggression.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time to take the first break. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, I will now ask you a couple of questions that deal with what is written in the text of this document, tab 1.1.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to draw your attention, gentlemen, that the witness is testifying to all this, whereas the document only corroborates his testimony. We had the same situation when ³⁸⁹⁶⁶ General Ivasov was testifying and you asked what the documents were about. So I'm pointing out that the testimony of the witness is supported by tab 1.1.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This deals with various forms of terrorist activity that Albanian separatists resorted to throughout that time in 1990s and that you were able to establish in your area of the SUP of Pec. What forms of terrorist activity do we have here?

A. In this initial period, their intention was to show to the world that their fundamental human rights are being violated in Kosovo. For instance, workers left work in an orchestrated manner and tried to show that they had been dismissed. For instance, a number of Albanians would simply abandon their workplaces and claim that it was -- that they were dismissed because they were Albanians.

Furthermore, they organised a parallel system of schooling. In existing schoolhouses, they organised their own system of education and claimed that they were excluded from regular schools. Then they organised their separate police force, saying that they had been dismissed from the SUPs in Kosovo.

Before they organised separate schools, they staged a scandal involving mass poisoning of pupils allegedly on ethnic grounds. It was later proved that it was all orchestrated by the separatist movement and had nothing to do with poisoning.

Q. What can you say about these terrorist groups that began to be set up in the early 1990s? ³⁸⁹⁶⁷

A. Those were smaller terrorist groups, so-called troikas. They would move across the terrain in threesomes, in civilian clothing.

JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. Mr. Milosevic, I can't follow what documents we are dealing with now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we dealing with tab 1?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only asking this witness a number of questions that relate to the textual part of tab 1.1, and then we will move through the other tabs. We have lists, tables, numbers of cases.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Put the first page of tab 1 on the ELMO so that we can have a translation of the heading.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My impression is that this is the wrong page, the wrong page of tab 1.1.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

JUDGE KWON: The ELMO is not working at the moment. The index we have now says that it should be the list of identified persons starved to death.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the basis of the list I have here and that has been provided to you, too, tab 1 is a brief on security related events involving loss of life that occurred in connection with armed conflicts in the area of the SUP of Pec from the 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001. This brief begins with a textual part.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is the way it is arranged in my binder. ³⁸⁹⁶⁸

JUDGE KWON: But you said tab 1.1. Just making sure you point out the exact tab number, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said tab 1.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 1, not tab 1.1. Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the index has only been provided in English about half an hour ago. I haven't thus far got a spare -- I haven't got a copy myself. If anybody's got a spare English copy, I would be grateful. It will take a few minutes for one to arrive for me.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have had the index for some time.

MR. NICE: In English to us only half an hour ago, apparently.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Why the discrimination against the Prosecution, Mr. Milosevic?

JUDGE KWON: And while we are waiting, I have to note that this exhibit number should be D298.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. A copy is being made available to the Prosecutor.

Is the ELMO working?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing is working now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Put tab 1 on the ELMO, the first page. It's not working. All right.

Let's continue, Mr. Milosevic. The ELMO isn't working.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So I am continuing with questions related to tab 1, this brief that, as we see, you signed on the last page. Is this your signature, ³⁸⁹⁶⁹ Mr. Paponjak? The stamp, the signature, and all the rest.

A. Yes.

Q. What is contained in this brief? What does it say about the location of training for terrorists?

A. That was organised in Albania and some other countries.

Q. Who performed the instruction?

A. Very well trained and paid mercenaries, Mujahedin, and other Muslims.

Q. How did they procure arms and ammunition?

A. By smuggling from foreign countries, and in particular by contraband from Albania after the breakdown of the Albanian army and the looting of army depots. After that, a great quantity of weapons and ammunition was brought in from there, but also from other countries. They procured for the most part Chinese-made weapons and ammunition. For the most part, as I say. And you could recognise when it was them who were shooting because the sound was specific, peculiar.

Q. We are not going to go into that because you have already dealt with various attacks and the targets of these attacks. It is all contained in this brief, including Adrian Krasniqi to whom you referred earlier.

What organisational and other preparations were carried out for terrorist activities beginning with 1997?

A. All the necessary measures were taken to prepare for a struggle in the long-run. They supplied themselves with medical and other equipment and placed it in storage facilities in various places. Those were remote ³⁸⁹⁷⁰ places, sometimes fortified, and they hid these supplies in those storage houses.

Q. This brief also describes measures intended to make other Albanians join them. Were you aware of this?

A. This was well known among the people, among the population. They forced people to join them, especially younger men, using threats, blackmail. Parents who did not wish their children to join the KLA could make a payment to the KLA in exchange for their children. Those who did not pay were subjected to punitive measures. These could range from cautions to physical abuse, breaking of windows, arson of crops, destroying of houses belonging to those families, culminating in physical liquidation.

Q. All right. Tell me, did they treat differently Muslim Albanians and Catholic Albanians? Did they make a distinction or did they treat them equally?

A. The treatment was equal, with the only difference that Catholic Albanians did not so readily join them. Catholic Albanians lived in villages in which they were a majority, so the KLA found it more difficult to access them and to influence them. Catholic Albanians resisted joining more.

Q. Tell me, how did it come about that terrorist training centres were established?

A. As the movement gained strength and became more massive, they formed centres and larger units. These terrorist centres were set up in places that were ethnically pure, in which there were no Serbs. They ³⁸⁹⁷¹ tried to find locations in which there were no police sections or outposts so that they would feel safer in those centres, and they would place them again in those areas that were ethnically pure.

Terrorist centres were, for instance, in the area of Rugova, which is a very forbidding terrain.

Q. Can you tell me the locations in the area of the SUP of Pec?

A. In the area of Rugova, the Rugova canyon, in the Baranja canyon, the area of Velika and Mala Jablanica, then in a suburb of Pec, Lloxha. And all these centres were under the command of Ramush Haradinaj in the so-called Metohija area, but they had their own local leaders in villages.

Q. What was the command structure of the KLA like?

A. The territory of Kosovo and Metohija was divided into several zones. The area of Pec belonged to the operative zone of Dukagjini, as they called it. Metohija, in other words. The commander was Ramush Haradinaj. He had under his command several KLA brigades which were deployed in the areas I already mentioned. Within the brigades there were lower-ranking units. Furthermore, they had their own police force, including Special Police Units called The Black Arm. The commander of this Black Arm was Meto Krasniqi, who was nicknamed Meto Vranovci after the village he was born in. A very large number of crimes was perpetrated under his command and he perpetrated some himself.

Q. This name, The Black Arm, was linked to -- or Black Hand, a Serb group, and you had information that that Black Hand existed as part of a terrorist organisation; is that right?

A. The Black Hand was part of a terrorist organisation, and in our ³⁸⁹⁷² area that was a unit which was commanded by Meto Krasniqi. We have statements to that effect.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, where was the security situation most difficult within the area that came under your secretariat, the Pec secretariat?

A. In 1998 the worst situation was in the Baranski circle, and that is Baran [phoen], Celopek, Vlasic -- I can't remember all the names now, the names of all those places. And then in the Klina area as well, the so-called Drenica part, in the village of Kijevo. That was a village that was completely cut off, predominantly inhabited by Serbs. That was isolated for several months. Then in the Rugovska Klisura or gorge area, the Istok part towards Rakos and Suwogolo [phoen], then in Vrelo in the Istok area, that was a very strong terrorist stronghold. And if you look at it that way and see all this, then you can see that Pec was surrounded on all sides by strong terrorist centres, and the terrorists in a certain period of time had cut off Pec from the rest of Kosovo and Metohija. When I say "cut off," I mean in fact that an inhabitant of Pec could not go to Pristina safely and securely, or to Djakovica, for instance, or Kosovska Mitrovica, or Decani. They couldn't use the direct road, the shortest communication. All they could do was go to Pristina via Montenegro, for example, which would mean across Kula, Rozaje to Kosovska Mitrovica and Pristina that way, via a roundabout way, and he would have to take the same route to Djakovica whereas Djakovica is just 35 kilometres away from Pec, but for somebody to do the journey and reach Djakovica, they would have to go round Montenegro and right round ³⁸⁹⁷³ the area, which would mean traversing more than 200 kilometres. I myself went from Pec to Belgrade to attend meetings via Montenegro, because none of the roads were secure and safe. You couldn't drive safely through unless you had an armoured vehicle, perhaps, and there were a large number of attacks, and many people were killed along those roads and communication lines, which in turn led to Pec's being cut off.

A significant number of Serb families from the Baranski Lug area left their homes and moved and went to stay with friends or relatives in Pec itself or perhaps further away towards Sumadija in Serbia and Montenegro. A large number of Albanians similarly left their homes. A large number of Albanians in that particular year left and went to other parts, Pec or outside Kosovo and Metohija itself, even abroad, in an attempt to avoid having their children recruited into the so-called Liberation Army of Kosovo.

Q. Let's pause there, please, Colonel, for a moment. When you speak about these people leaving their homes and a large number of Albanians who left, too, now, in the places from which the Albanians originated and left their homes, were there any of our forces there, police, or the army, or soldiers, anything like that?

A. No. Those were areas under the control of the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army. And within the frameworks of our regular activities, we had our own checkpoints towards the Montenegrin border, for example, and at those checkpoints we registered all entries and exits on a daily basis, and I myself would look through those records and registers, and the ³⁸⁹⁷⁴ general observation was that more people were leaving than were coming into the area. And already at that time we had very set information telling us that people were leaving the Pec area. When they would return we didn't know, but that's what was happening, they were leaving.

Q. You said that they attacked civilians, both Serb civilians and Albanian civilians.

A. Yes.

Q. Why did they attack -- why they attacked Serbs, that's quite clear, we all know about that, but why did they attack Albanians?

A. They attacked Albanians to force them to join the movement, and the other option was to show the world that it was us that were doing this, attacking them. So this created a whole psychosis and atmosphere of fear. The Serbs were afraid of Albanians, the Albanians were afraid of the Serbs. It was a chain reaction. And if any killings occurred and if there was beating up, if vehicles were shot at, nobody would know who the perpetrators were, who was doing the shooting. Some of the people would say that it was the Serbs that were doing this, others would say that the Albanians were doing this, and then both people were afraid, both groups were afraid of each other.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if this evidence relates to any part of the indictment alleging that Serb forces attacked Albanians and Albanians fled, then it would be in your interest to identify the specific areas, the specific villages or regions where this occurred rather than to have the evidence being given in this general way.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the indictment in ³⁸⁹⁷⁵ many places there is mention of the fact that Serb forces expelled Albanians and attacked Albanians in their villages. For example, in a secretariat which comprises five municipalities, by dealing with that I would like to show you what the actual situation was like, what was actually going on. And this is a pattern that is presented here in the indictment, a pattern of attacks against Albanians, allegedly attacks on Albanians by Serbs, whereas the facts are quite different, and the colonel is testifying to that by testifying to the situation in his area of responsibility in these five municipalities around Pec.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, while the evidence has been interrupted, the witness has been speaking with increasing generality, although I understood that this part of his evidence was rooted in tab 1. If one looks at the last answer, which includes the word "psychosis" for ease of reference, it would obviously help us to know whether that is reflecting some paragraph of conclusions that we can find in tab 1 or if this is just general material.

I don't want to keep making that point, but as we move from anything that's specific to general, it would help us to know if this is covered in documentary material or not.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that did occur to me, whether any of the evidence which he's giving now is covered in any of the tabs. I presume if it were you would bring that to our attention as supporting evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Otherwise, as far as tab 1 is concerned, and with regard to what the colonel said a moment ago, it ^{38976 BLANK PAGE 38977} says on page 2 at the end: "Because of killings and abductions of the Serbs in the Baranski Lug area of Klina, the Serb families left their homes and went into town, and then they were looted. They looted their property, their houses." And then it goes on to speak about the roads, the communication lines, and the suffering and casualty with other citizens.

I'll ask the witness specifically not to go into and enumerate all the characteristic cases of terrorist attacks in this SUP Pec area.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, do you remember the killing of six Albanians?

A. Of course I do. It is a typical example of the execution of Albanians who refused to comply, and that took place in April 1998.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that in any of the tabs, the document that is in front of you? If you're not able to say, let us move on and then perhaps we can come back to that. If you're not able to identify a specific tab in which that information is, we should move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, this piece of information about the killing of six Albanians, is it to be found in this document?

A. Not in this particular document, no.

Q. Is it to be found in any of your other documents?

A. No, and I can explain what this is all about. In our area -- in our area, these six Albanians were abducted, and the execution took place in the SUP Prizren area. So the entire case and files are to be found in the Prizren SUP archives. And I have knowledge about the abduction, which ³⁸⁹⁷⁸ was recorded in our daily logbook, and also on the basis of the subsequent contacts I had with the Prizren SUP.

Q. All right. Now, with respect to the abduction, was it registered in any of your documents, recorded?

A. Not in this one here but in the logbook of the Pec SUP, yes, it was. All these cases were, because I wasn't able to bring in all the documents. Had I known that we would be discussing the matter, I would have done my best to procure those documents as well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us move on, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you, Colonel.

JUDGE KWON: Before we go any further, can I clarify with the witness what this document is about a little further. It seems to me that all the documents were prepared by you and signed by you. Is it right?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE KWON: At the time of May 2002, on what occasion and for what purpose did you prepare this document? Could you clarify a bit further.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my response to one of the previous questions before the break, I already explained this. I said that we put some order into these documents, the documents that were presented from the Pec SUP area, that we classified them and placed them in the respective files and dossiers. These are translations of the -- of Kosovo and Metohija. ³⁸⁹⁷⁹

JUDGE KWON: Yes, I heard. My question is why in May 2002?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we were not able to do that earlier. We had withdrawn from our area. We had to organise ourselves. We had to wait for all the documents to reach us, to arrive. There was general chaos that reigned during the war, let me tell you, and all the documents got mixed up or, rather, they were sent to other locations to prevent them from being destroyed in the bombing, although a portion was destroyed in the bombing. And then we had to go around these areas and collect up the documents and find where we had sent them. So we found some documents that were compiled in 1998 and 1999 when they should have been compiled, the right time. Then we found them later on, placed them in a warehouse, in a storage space, and looked for the individual papers one by one. And this job was finished in May, and some were -- May 2002. Some documents were classified earlier on, but that's why they were signed at that particular date, at that time. There was no other reason to complete the task in May except for the objective situation that reigned, because of this displacement and the chaos that was going on in the area itself.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, all these documents were drafted pursuant to orders from the then authorities of Serbia; is that right?

A. Well, we classified them like this, yes, but we had put some order into these documents without a separate order. However, this methodology ³⁸⁹⁸⁰ and the final classification was done pursuant to an order issued, yes.

Q. Fine. Thank you. Now, tell me, please, Colonel, who was Sali Berisha and why was he killed?

A. Sali Berisha was the owner of a petrol pump at the -- in the Klina area, the petrol company, and he was well known for selling fuel to anybody who came to his gas station, and there was a general shortage at that time, and he would sell fuel to Albanians and Serbs alike. The members of the so-called KLA criticised him for selling fuel to the Serbs and for associating with the Serbs and doing business with the Serbs and ordered him to stop that practice. He continued to do what he had been doing and continued to sell fuel to the Serbs and socialise with the Serbs, and they proclaimed him a traitor, as well as his family members and all of his employees. And then one evening in the month of April 1998, they rounded them up, they abducted them from their houses, that is to say this man and his family members and his neighbours and the six Albanians in total that worked for him. They took them away from their houses, uniformed KLA members who were armed did this. They abducted them and executed them by the roadside, the Malisevo-Orahovac road.

Q. Sali Berisha was killed, then, for having sold fuel at his petrol station to Serbs; is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. And when you Lloxha, what geographical region is that?

A. Lloxha is in fact a village which is a suburb of Pec itself.

Q. And what do you know about the conflict between the KLA and the police in Lloxha, for instance? ³⁸⁹⁸¹

A. The terrorists in Lloxha built very strong fortifications. They dug trenches and communicating trenches. They were well-armed, and that was part and parcel of their attempt to gain control of Pec and to see our reactions.

At the beginning of July 1998, they did in fact attack the Vujosevic family, Serbs living in Lloxha, and from the SUP headquarters of Pec a unit was sent to try and protect the family and its members. The police unit did arrive, went to the Vujosevic house, and they protected the family, but upon their return to Pec or along their -- the road back, an ambush was set up and the terrorists attacked the unit, and how is this going to be a -- replace this -- be this -- will this be translated, with hand-held rocket launchers and automatic weapons. That's what they used. And on the occasion two policemen were killed because the Pinzgauer vehicle was pierced with shell. Two policemen were killed, several others wounded. Two policemen, one a captain Srdjan Perovic was his name, was kidnapped. Or the two of them were kidnapped and nothing was known of their fate for a long time. And then during a terrorist action their corpses were found, that is to say the corpse of Captain Perovic and policeman Rajkovic, and a post-mortem was conducted and it was established that they had died a terrible death, in great pain. After they managed to repel the terrorists from the area, the trenches and communicating trenches were found with large quantities of ammunition and weapons, automatic rifles and machine-guns, and so on and so forth.

Q. And that case is in the tabs; is that right? ³⁸⁹⁸²

A. Yes, that's right. On that day I was in Brezanicka Street in Pec, which is Brezanik suburb, which is about 300 metres away from the JNA barracks and we were actually fighting them at the entrance to the town of Pec. Their plan was to try to take the town of Pec and to establish their own government there.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I'd like to draw your attention to the following: Mr. Nice called one or two witnesses in this respect, I cannot remember now, who said it was the policemen who attacked the Albanians in Lloxha. Now you have the opportunity of hearing what had really happened in Lloxha.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It wasn't only in Lloxha. Also they attacked Pec itself. At the entrance into Pec, Brezanicko-Litsa [phoen], and the barracks of the VJ of the army of Yugoslavia were hit by their bullets, but the army did not leave the barracks.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you remember the witnesses whom you called, or Mr. Kay?

MR. NICE: No. I notice the accused's taking an opportunity to make a comment, but no, I don't remember the witnesses. I'll find them out for you if it's valuable.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic. Do you know the witnesses, the Prosecution witnesses? I'd like to have a look at their testimony. What are the names?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, no. I remembered that this was referred to when the witness was explaining now what had ³⁸⁹⁸³ happened in Lloxha, but I'll look it up.

MR. NICE: I should be able to find it out for you very rapidly, or certainly by the break.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks.

JUDGE KWON: Lloxha appears in the transcript dated 25th of April. Could you find out.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE KWON: Sorry, 25th of April in 2002. Go on, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm reminded how long this case has been going on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, what can you say about the activities of the Salihaj brothers in the Istok area? That was also within your area of responsibility.

A. There were eight Salihaj brothers. I think there were eight of them. Well, it's contained in the document anyway. They committed a great many terrorist attacks. The members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Gajic Rajko was one of the Serbs who was killed and also Krstic Slavko [phoen] and Krsdanovic Slavoljub [phoen]. Krasniqi Naim from Crni Lug too. That is the 19th of May, 1998. In the village of Rakos, Svetlarevic Zdravko had a grenade thrown into his house and he was killed and his wife was wounded on the occasion.

Q. What do you know about the crimes in Budisavci and Velika Krusevo?

A. The terrorists carried out an attack against the Serbs in the village of Budisavci. Then they took Dalibor Lazarevic out of his house. ³⁸⁹⁸⁴ He was 16 years old, in Krusevo, and they literally executed him. He was a 16-year-old boy.

Q. Do you know what happened to Rifat Ajdinaj in June 1998?

A. More or less everybody knows what happened, all people who lived in the area at the time. People talked about it a lot, and it is correct. Ajdinaj Rifat, he did not want to join the movement of the so-called KLA, and he killed his own son Malj. He shot him. He did not let him go, and he used his own rifle to kill him. And then he surrendered to the members of the police, and he explained his motives.

Q. In the period that you are testifying about, 1998 and 1999, were there any abductions?

A. Yes. Yes, several abductions of Serbs and Albanians. More than 15 Serbs were kidnapped, and about ten Albanians that year. That was only during the months of June and July. That's the relevant figure. We have the total figures for 1998 and 1999, but I'm talking about only those two months now, the number of Serbs and Albanians abducted in June and July 1998, that were very difficult months from a security point of view in 1998. That is when the situation was the most difficult in that area, not taking into account the NATO aggression.

Q. Were those roads that you referred to a few minutes ago taken then?

A. Yes. That was a period when Pec was literally cut off from the rest of Serbia, and the only way out was to Montenegro.

Q. All right. In 1998, now this is the time before the Verification Mission came, when did the police force take anti-terrorist activity? ³⁸⁹⁸⁵

A. The police force took anti-terrorist activities in July and August.

Q. After this culmination?

A. Yes. Yes. They were forced to act, because the situation was untenable. The population was in a very difficult situation, both Serbs and Albanians. It was impossible to travel anywhere. Supplies were made increasingly difficult.

Q. You explained that. What was the aim of these terrorist activities and who were they aimed against?

A. The anti-terrorist activities were only conducted against terrorists, and this was done in a very organised and planned manner. The police did not react to individual cases. It did not react strongly. Activities were taken later in a planned and organised fashion with the intention of avoiding any kind of civilian casualties. These activities were aimed at terrorists only in order to deblockade the roads and to repel terrorists from these areas and so that the population could go back home.

We have the figures here in the subsequent chapters, entire families that moved out of certain villages.

Q. Now did the policemen treat the civilians when anti-terrorist activities were taken?

A. The policemen had the task of protecting the lives of all persons, civilians and terrorists. That is to say not to kill anyone until absolutely necessary. Civilians by no means, and the terrorists only if there is no other way out, if they cannot be arrested, if they cannot be ³⁸⁹⁸⁶ repelled, or if they are attacked by the terrorists as the police advance. If there's no other way out, then the terrorists could be shot, but this was avoided if it would threaten the lives of civilians.

Q. What were the results of these anti-terrorist activities of the police? What was the situation?

A. The result was the deblockade of the area. The terrorists were repelled, roads were deblocked. The materials that they had placed along the road were removed. For example, in Iglarevo. They established a border of their own and they would not let people pass. I went there myself and we had to take measures in order to remove this. People returned to their homes.

The terrorists certainly came back with the civilian population up to an extent. The terrorist forces were broken up. Some of them had to flee back to Albania, but others were among the civilian population, and they hid around their homes. They brought weapons to particular places in a village. They would gather weapons. There was a paradoxical situation. For example, 15 days before that, the police could not go there and civilians could not go back to their homes, and then policemen -- two policemen would come and then they would collect all these weapons that the terrorists had left behind. Efforts were made for as many terrorists as possible to hand in their weapons and not to have any further measures taken against them, not to have criminal prosecution or anything.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they cannot hear the witness because another microphone is on in the courtroom.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ³⁸⁹⁸⁷

Q. What were the units that took part in the activities in Pec?

A. In the anti-terrorist activities, there were special police units that were involved, specialist -- a special anti-terrorist unit, and also the regular police force.

Q. In the territory that SUP Pec was in charge of, was there any local security?

A. Yes.

Q. What is local security? Could you please explain that.

A. Local security is an idea which was carried out in order to try to minimise tensions. Namely, in a particular village the population, the people would elect their own representative. This representative would get a uniform which would be different from other uniforms. The person concerned would have a badge, an ID, and authority to ask other people to show their IDs and even to bring into custody persons to the SUP. Local security was organised and financed by the municipality. It was not organised by the SUP.

The underlying idea was that in this way, police presence would be reduced in villages. If there are no serious problems there, the police would not have to deal with them. It would be the local security people who would deal with it. Then the number of possible provocations from both sides would go down as well, because some Albanians would consider to be provocative even if they saw policemen in villages. We thought that there would be less terrorist attacks in this way, and slowly over time there would be a general easing of tensions.

Q. Since you didn't say this yourself I will have to ask you whether ^{38988 BLANK PAGE 38989} the members of the local security had weapons.

A. Yes; short barrelled weapons, pistols.

Q. All right. They had badges, IDs, and weapons, and also police batons; right? They had the same kind of equipment like any other policeman?

A. Yes, but with a different kind of uniform.

Q. All right. So in various villages it was the people themselves, the villagers themselves who elected such a representative?

A. Yes.

Q. In Albanian-populated villages, were these people always Albanians?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Yes. So the Albanians themselves decided amongst themselves who their local policeman would be?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the underlying idea?

A. Yes, it was.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I can hear the interpreters straining and speaking very fast, so please observe a pause between question and answer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, Colonel, what was the attitude of the KLA towards the local population or the local security?

A. I'm trying to pause.

Q. But keep your pauses shorter. Just pause very briefly. ³⁸⁹⁹⁰

A. They were violently opposed to this because this certainly did not work in their favour. They tried to win over the members of the local security, and if they did not want to do that, then they created various problems for them. They mistreated them and killed either them or members of their families.

Q. Have you got any examples of this kind of incident against members of the local security?

A. Yes.

Q. A few moments ago we said that they were all Albanians.

A. Yes. I myself am aware of the Klimenta family case. One of them was a member of the local security and they had terrible problems on account of that. They had to move out of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija because of that.

Q. Please take a look at tab 10.1 and 10.2. Is there a criminal report there against these persons who attacked? Does it have to do with the crime of terrorism? Klimenta Idriz statement, that is, and Klimenta Malj's statement; 10.1 and 10.2.

A. Yes, that is correct. I can recognise the documents. I am not aware of their entire contents, but I know what this is all about. These are statements of Klimenta Idriz and Klimenta Malj, members of the Klimenta family. One of them was a member of the local security.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this is a territory of evidential admissibility that we've visited before, but this time the witness says he is not aware of even the entire contents of what is clearly a witness statement of some kind. I have no idea what my position would be on the ³⁸⁹⁹¹ underlying facts asserted in this statement at the moment, and I leave it entirely to the Chamber as to whether, if there are going to be more of the statements of this kind sought to be produced by this witness they should go in as evidence in light of its previous rulings, but it does appear to be a hearsay witness statement.

JUDGE ROBINSON: But let us hear more about it, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, tab 10 that the witness has just been speaking about, KLA's treatment of local security men, one of this family was part of this local security elected by the village population itself. So what you see here is a criminal report accompanied by the statements of these two men underlying this criminal report. The criminal report is an official document of the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec relating to criminal acts perpetrated against Idriz Klimenta whose statement is to be found in tab 10.1, and Malj Klimenta, 10.2.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What does he have to do with this statement? Is it a statement that he collected?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He has a lot to do with it because he was the chief of the SUP of Pec and this event is connected with Pec, so it is or, rather, was within his competence. Ex officio, he was in charge of the area of Pec. He knows that he does not know by heart what is written in the statements, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't know about the statements or the event. On the contrary, he's testifying to this event without going into the details of the statements. These statements were attached as corroboration of the witness's statement that the local Albanian population was under attack from the ³⁸⁹⁹² local KLA.

JUDGE ROBINSON: To whom was the statement given?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please look at these documents, Colonel, and give us an explanation.

A. The statements were taken by the head of the criminal investigation section of the Pec police, Danilo Bulatovic, in the outpost of the Pec SUP in Kragujevac.

I had those statements in my hands at the time, and we discussed steps to be taken. A criminal report was submitted to the district public prosecutor's office. I can't tell you what is written here verbatim because I don't know all this by heart, but I know the subject matter and I know when the statements were taken.

JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second. Mr. Paponjak, do you remember when this statement was taken?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you the exact time or date.

JUDGE KWON: If you look at the first page of tab 10, not 10.1, I note a date 28th of June, 2002. Is that date when this statement was taken?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement could have been taken on that day or a couple of days earlier.

JUDGE KWON: The matters referred to in these statements were -- happened when? It's 1998 or 1999?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. ³⁸⁹⁹³

JUDGE KWON: However, the statements were taken in 2002.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is neither odd nor unusual in the situation in which we worked, because the Klimenta family had fled Kosovo, and that was the first time they came to our SUP to be issued with new IDs, and that was the occasion when we were able to take their statements in Kragujevac, because they were living at the time in Montenegro.

That is not the only statement related to events from 1998 that we took later in 2002, for instance. Some statements were never taken to this day because we were simply unable to reach all the injured parties.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll hear evidence from this witness on this statement. Presumably ultimately you will ask us to admit it for identification subject to its being translated. But we don't even know what is in the statement. Is the witness in a position to say what is in the statement?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm really being very selective with documents, because it is absolutely clear to me that we cannot introduce here not even the majority of documents let alone all of them. For instance, with the witness Obradovic, we had thousands of pages of accompanying documents, and my associates reduced it to a couple of hundred, and that concerns a military commander for a certain area, with very important documents supporting his testimony. However, this document is very typical, and it makes it possible for everyone to understand in which way the KLA established the terror ³⁸⁹⁹⁴ which still prevails in Kosovo to this day. And I am asking you kindly to let us look at the contents of this statement. The man who gave it was not arrested. He came himself to a police centre that was dislocated, relocated from Pec, in order to restore his rights.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's open to you to call that person, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very difficult indeed. Let me draw your attention to one thing, and I would like the witness to follow. On the last page, just in relation to authenticity, it says: "My wife gave statements several times to UNMIK and KFOR in Pec regarding all the circumstances that I described here myself. I demand that all legal measures be taken against KLA criminals and to make it possible for me to return to my property."

My associates tried to reach this man. He is not at the address where he used to be. He has left. I do hope that we will be able to reach him eventually, as well as some other people. But with all Albanians who are in this situation, they need certain protection, because we're not talking about some kind of abuse here. We are talking about life and death. It's the choice between life and death, not only for him but for his entire family.

Let us just look at what this statement says, please. It will not take a lot of time.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us look at this statement. If we can get a summary of it, so much the better. It will, of course, strengthen your case immeasurably if you're able to call this witness to testify to the ³⁸⁹⁹⁵ extent that the evidence will be relevant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This statement is extremely relevant, Mr. Robinson. Please, he says at the beginning: "I was born and have always lived in Kosuric village near Pec. I had a house which the KLA ruined by demolishing it and eight hectares of land." It says also: "I lived peacefully with all my neighbours, Albanians and Serbs. I never had any conflict with the law. At that time, I lived well and I was happy because I was able to feed my family and procure everything that we needed to live normally. Until 1998, I had no problems with KLA whatever. In January 1998, I can't remember the exact date, without any reason whatsoever, around midnight KLA members shot at my house from automatic weapons and threw two hand grenades," et cetera.

Then he says in May -- the month of May the same year, Selim Met Kelmendi, KLA commander for Kosuric village, and Redj Ajdar Kelmendi, his deputy, came to his house and summoned him to come out into the yard. Both were in uniforms, armed with automatic weapons. And then he goes on to say: "Selim and Redj told me to kill Serbs in my village and to kill whoever they ordered me to, including members of my family. They even told me to kill my own uncle, Saliju Klimenta, and other members of my family. They told me if I performed this assignment, I will be admitted into their ranks; if I don't, they will kill me and my son. And then they left. I don't remember the exact date but I remember it was around noon. This conversation lasted for about 30 minutes."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're not in a position to give ³⁸⁹⁹⁶ the evidence. It is the witness who is giving the evidence. So you must have a question of the witness in relation to the matters in the statement.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a message here from Professor Rakic regarding the testimony of, and I would like to ask for a private session because I will mention a name. Just for one minute.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session, please.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're in open session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Further below in this statement, it says that after that conversation and the threats uttered, he spent some time in the woods, and he come back home for an hour or half an hour. He says: "I reported the incident to the police in Celopek. However, the policemen had no ability to prevent this activity because the KLA had already occupied a lot of the territory."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ³⁸⁹⁹⁸

Q. Does he mean, Colonel, the territory around his village?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware of this subject matter, although you said you don't know all the details of this statement?

A. I am perfectly aware of this subject matter. I don't know all the details of the statement, I don't know all the dates, but I know when the statement was taken, and I know when the criminal report was made, and I personally signed the accompanying letter to the Office of the Prosecutor. This document is not here, but it is a regular form. This statement was taken in Kragujevac where we were very limited in our opportunities for work. It was taken by the head of the criminal investigation police precisely because of the complexity of the case, and it was why the chief took charge of this case, this statement, himself. The statement was signed on every page by the person who gave the statement, which means it is indisputably authentic. And the statement describes in every last detail what happened to his family, how his sons were killed, what measures were taken by the UNMIK police and which measures were not taken. And this is why we submitted a criminal report to the district public prosecutor in Pec, so that we would perhaps be able to take some further measures.

Q. Colonel, you mentioned somebody called Meto Krasniqi Vranovci. He is also mentioned here.

A. Yes.

Q. His brothers, or cousins, Avnija and Meto Mehmeti from Pozara near Decani are also mentioned. Do you see that on page 2? ³⁸⁹⁹⁹

A. Yes.

Q. It says Meto Krasniqi Vranovci was commander for the Black Hand. He decided who was to be killed. His base was in Vranovac. Meto had in his unit more than a thousand men from 19 villages. He had his people everywhere. Meto killed a lot of people and raped Albanian women. I know that he brought one Albanian girl from Streca or Istinic into Celopek, raped her and killed her. The entire village knows that. In the course of 1998, Meto, with his group, came into the house of the policeman Zenun Gashi in Kosuric, obviously an Albanian, kidnapped the man and later butchered him. He tortured Gashi for about three hours. After the kidnapping, Gashi was taken to the village of Dasinovac, near Decani, into the headquarters, and there he was killed in the most vicious manner.

A. Yes. That was one policeman whose wife later started proceedings, and he was proclaimed dead five years later. We did not have this information until these persons came to see us in Kragujevac.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry to interrupt. It's time for the adjournment. In fact, we are past the time, so we'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: As to the query about the evidence concerning Lloxha, the town gets mentioned once in passing by Karleusa but otherwise is simply the subject of evidence by, as His Honour Judge Kwon has I think already identified the witness, Ndrec Konaj, and it's the ^{39000 BLANK PAGE 39001} cross-examination of that witness together with his 92 bis statement, which is Exhibit 112, that covers the matter, but I don't think it's covered anywhere else unless our word searches are misspelled and have missed it.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, does that deal with events in 1998? I think the month was July 1998.

MR. NICE: I think it does but I'll have to go into it again myself indeed.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Nice.

MR. KAY: It's the attack on that particular district in Pec, but it's not mentioned in any great detail.

JUDGE BONOMY: Is it 1998?

MR. KAY: Yes, it seems to be. It's not particularly clear.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, we left off discussing the brief or, rather, the statement that I quoted from. The man Metonovci Krasniqi, he was the commander of the Black Hand. That was the man. And he says more than 1.000 people from 19 villages, on page 3, towards the end of the large paragraph, he said: "Meto was a close associate of Ramush Haradinaj. He associated closely with Idriz Baljaj, nicknamed Toger, who was at the staff and headquarters at Dasinovac. I know that Toger perpetrated many crimes against the Serbs and Roma. He slit their throats. That was the way he killed them. Otherwise, he was a resident of Sicevo-Klina and the headquarters and staff in Dasinovac was the most infamous one where all ³⁹⁰⁰² the victims were massacred."

Have you found that passage and do you know about those events?

A. Yes, I do.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please. Microphone, please, for the witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I asked you whether you knew about those events.

A. Yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Both microphones, please. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you now. Yes, I do know about those events. Idriz Balaj was convicted in Kosmet by the court in Kosmet for the killing of Albanians, and he was the perpetrator of those killings. He didn't only kill Serbs, he also killed Albanians, and he was convicted at a trial in 2002 and given a prison term, and the accused is now together before this Tribunal appearing with Ramush Haradinaj. And then he goes on to say -- or he goes on to say, rather, that at the end of March because the lives of his family were threatened by the KLA, he was forced to leave the village with his family. Fifty-four members of his village left from Kosuric across Celopek, and their idea was to go to Klincina and report to the police there and apply for protection.

A. Well, that would be the closest police station or police department to which he could go for help.

Q. On that morning, his son Gzim Klimenta, 15 years old, was kidnapped in front of his house, and here he gives us the names of the persons who kidnapped him: Fljorim Alickaj, Astrit Thaci, and Ram ³⁹⁰⁰³ Kelmendi, and one other person whose surname he doesn't know. And then that he was taken to the headquarters, and it says that Ramush Haradinaj was in the headquarters, they held him for three weeks, and then killed him. And it says here -- but do you know about this event?

A. Yes.

Q. Before that, they shot him in the leg and tortured him, held a noose around his neck throughout the time he was there, and he also says that his son was buried only after KFOR had arrived.

A. Well, they couldn't do that before.

Q. He also says - and that's on page 4 - that on the same day they kidnapped his son, he went to Klincina with his family, and then he says and I quote, and I'm going to ask you whether you know anything about that: "We were taken in by the police and we were all put up in the premises of the primary school near the police building. The police provided security for us and made it impossible for the KLA to attack us. They supplied us with food, even cigarettes, when we needed them."

A. Yes, that's absolutely true. And it's not the only family, the only Albanian family whom we protected and found accommodation in order to protect them from the so-called KLA and their attacks.

Q. He says after that that he had to leave, to move out, when the army and police withdrew from Kosovo, they had to go with them, and that now they all have IDs as displaced persons.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Now, he also goes on to say that in August 1999, his brother, Muharem Klimenta, 30 years of age, from Rozaje, that is from Montenegro, ³⁹⁰⁰⁴ and his uncle Dzafo Klimenta, 21 years old, went to their village to take a look at their houses and property. And they learnt immediately -- the KLA learnt about this and arrived straight away. So that was in August 1999 when the KLA was apparently functioning normally. Do you know about that?

A. Yes. I apologise, but may I ask you that if you're going to quote names, could we have them quoted in private session, please.

Q. Very well. I won't go into the names. But I assume --

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, do you know why Klimenta and the family Klimenta did not give statements to the police when they went to the police in the first instance when the boy was kidnapped?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly they did make statements at that time, but we don't have that document in our possession. They did report to the police department in Klincina and not the headquarters of the SUP Pec, and the documents from that police department was not taken away, was not collected.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, I don't want to read the names, then. I don't assume you mean members of the KLA, Colonel.

A. No, no. It would be a catastrophic thing for those people if you were to read out their names. I wouldn't be sure that they would be safe and secure if you did that. Their safety would be jeopardised.

Q. Yes. That's quite true, I'm sure. Now, he goes on to say that the KLA members were identified, those who perpetrated this act in August 1999, abducting these people. Their ³⁹⁰⁰⁵ names were Bajrush and Muharem and they were wearing uniforms and armed, and that was in August 1999.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And they held them for three weeks near the police station by the headquarters in Pec, and after three weeks they took them to the village of Strejoz [phoen], Decani, a place nearby called Demov Most, or Demov bridge, and killed them from firearms. They covered them with petrol and set fire to them. And then the individuals who said who the perpetrators were, and he said that Bajrush Berisha and Muharem Gashi, members of the Black Hand, had killed his brother.

After that we can see that Lica Klimenta [phoen] went to ask around and find out what had happened to those people because he didn't know they had been killed. And Bajrush Berisha came straight away. He called out to him. As soon as the man came out of the house, he shot him dead on the spot, and shooting a whole round of ammunition.

A. Yes, that's the second son that he killed, his second son.

Q. And then he goes on to say on the following page that UNMIK and KFOR were informed by the hospital of this event and UNMIK and KFOR arrested Bajrush Berisha for the killing and he was given a prison term of 15 years and is now in Dubrava, the prison at Istok. And for the killing of the son, brother, and his uncle's son, no measures were taken.

A. That's right. But there's something characteristic in this case here that I should like to note. A Catholic priest transferred him who hospital. That means none of the neighbours did and not a single Muslim did either. It was a Catholic priest who transferred the wounded Disar ³⁹⁰⁰⁶ [phoen] to hospital. The other people either didn't dare or didn't wish to.

Q. Well, let's not speculate about that, but in view of the amount of fear that exists there, probably they didn't dare to. He goes on to say: "I claim that the violence against my immediate family members and broader family was conducted by the KLA exclusively because we did not want to join up with the KLA and carry out their orders, and their orders were that we had to kill each other mutually, amongst ourselves, and to kill Serbs too. They also asked us to kill policemen, and that was a condition for us to stay alive and join their ranks."

A. Yes, that was like that, and that's not the only case. We have a whole series of cases in our documents here of similar instances, similar cases.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I hear you correctly, Mr. Milosevic, that a condition was that they had to kill each other? Can the witness explain that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the statement itself at the beginning of what I was quoting, you will able to see that the first time they arrived they said they had to kill Serbs, and they also gave them an assignment to kill their uncle, whom they probably didn't like for some reason, so that's what this refers to, to kill each other mutually, because they asked him to kill his uncle, that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: To kill his uncle. Okay. Thanks very much. Yes. ³⁹⁰⁰⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His uncle was a highly respected individual, and they were asked to kill the uncle as the most prominent member of the family.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That's on page 1 of the statement, isn't it? He says that they were first asked to kill Serbs and policemen and then to kill their uncle, too; right?

A. That uncle is the father a member of the local security.

Q. Then he goes on to say: "We didn't wish to execute their orders. We didn't want to join them either because they were the perpetrators of all the crimes."

All right, I'll try and read more slowly, I've been asked to do so.

Then he goes on to say: "I claim that the police acted correctly and properly towards the Albanians. They never perpetrated crimes against Albanians. On the contrary, the policemen even brought the Albanians food into the village and protected us from the KLA. Redj Kelmendi, one of the commanders in Kosuric, left his invalid mother in his house, the policemen fed her and even saw to her physiological needs. And this was personally done by Commander Ljubo Stankovic with his policemen, regardless of the fact that her son was one of the criminals. Do you know about that?

A. Yes, and that's not the only example of that kind of thing. I know of several such examples and I personally would behave that way or ask my Serb neighbours or their Serb neighbours to look after them.

Q. He says: "I am ready to testify before a local court and before ³⁹⁰⁰⁸ The Hague Tribunal about this," and then confirms that and says he will confirm that the persons undersigned will confirm that too, the ones that have confirmed his statement, but that they were not allowed to return.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that it will be possible for a relevant witness whose name is not mentioned here but whom I mentioned in closed session, in private session, will be able to come in and testify. He's not even asking to testify in closed session. He will be testifying publicly but have image distortion or visual protection.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Make the application, and it will be considered.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, Colonel, we saw the example here of one family, and they suffered great tragedies. We can see how many people were killed, and from the statement we have also seen how widespread the terror was, especially in that area, the KLA area.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... quite a wide licence in commenting in the course of his questions. I haven't interrupted earlier but I would invite the Chamber to keep him to the Rules.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Just ask a question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Eliminate the commentary.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. And I don't think any comment is necessary here. ³⁹⁰⁰⁹

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We saw an example of how they behaved towards Albanian peasants or villagers who had nothing to do with the state.

A. Yes.

Q. Now tell me this, please: How did the members of the KLA behave towards Albanians who worked in a state organisation or in any other kind of institution? It needn't be a state organisation, it could be a forestry company or the post office or any kind of utility service or public service, if we can call it that.

A. They proclaimed such Albanians traitors, and they threatened them publicly. They demanded that they leave their jobs, and those who did not comply, they would apply various measures. They would even attack them and physically liquidate them as well. That was the ultimate measure. And this applied, first of all, to public enterprises, people working in them and the state organs of Serbia, but it also applied to other companies and enterprises whose proprietors were Serbs, private enterprises owned by Serbs. Quite simply, any Albanian who associated with Serbs or socialised with them were termed a disobedient Albanian. We used -- we tend to use the term "loyal Albanian." Sometimes it can be a "disobedient Albanian." That is from the KLA aspects. "Loyal Albanian" implies -- the term implies that the person works in a state organisation, behaves properly pursuant to the laws of the country, does nothing against the country, does not engage in any hostile activities, socialises as an associate with the whole population, including the Serbs. Now, the members of the so-called KLA consider them to be disobedient Albanians who ³⁹⁰¹⁰ need to be disciplined and who need to be made to comply and support the so-called KLA.

We have an example --

Q. I'd like -- I understand that you could quote many examples and individual examples of that kind of thing but I'd like to dwell on some of the examples I have selected for which we have documents. So would you now please take a look at tab 27, which is a criminal report --

JUDGE ROBINSON: What binder is this?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll tell you in just a moment. It is binder 5. Yes, tab 27, binder 5.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What can we see from this criminal report? The date is April 1998. Take a look at page 2. All we can see there is that the injured party, Baljaj Ramadan, from the Iglarevo village of Klin was born in 1939, that he was a forester. It says that Ramadan was a forester and a worker of the Sumar enterprise, the forestry company.

A. Yes. This is a document that was brought from the area, and on page 1 you have an observation made written in handwriting, and I recognise my own handwriting, 16th of April, 1998. When we were categorising the documentation, I put in a mark there because you can't see from the first page what event this relates to. So I put some markings there, and that's the first page which has the date and the number in the Registry.

Q. Can we see from this that 15 armed terrorists attacked the house of Baljaj Ramadan? ³⁹⁰¹¹

A. Yes, Baljaj Ramadan was a forester, and I know him personally. Many people in the area know him personally. He was a man who was attacked on several occasions by the terrorists. His house was attacked many times by the terrorists, and he lost an eye in a clash with the terrorists, and ultimately he had to leave the area because he just couldn't survive after the protection forces arrived in Kosovo and Metohija.

On this particular day, a terrorist attack was launched against his house.

Q. Pause there, please. When you say that a terrorist attack was launched, it says here, "The terrorists opened a burst of gunfire from automatic weapons on the house. They fired several mines from a hand-held rocket launcher, and several hand grenades were thrown at the house. Ramadan responded by firing from a hunting rifle of the Nosbeg [phoen] make, 12 millimetres, it has the number, and from a 7.65 millimetre pistol," et cetera, et cetera. Please continue.

A. On that occasion, he happened to hit a number of terrorists with his pistol and with his hunting rifle at the point where they were trying to storm his house, to enter his house. So in that attack, by explosive devices and shrapnel, he was -- he sustained several injuries and one serious injury, which was the injury to his left eye from a hand-held rocket launcher. And he is blind in that eye to the present day and has an artificial one.

Q. It says here in the description --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you lead any evidence as to the provenance of ^{39012 BLANK PAGE 39013} this document? Who collected the statement? It doesn't appear as if it was collected by the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is -- no. No. I am bearing in mind the fact that the witness did not actually take statements. He was the head of the secretariat. The previous statement that we'd looked at he was able to identify and said that it was the chief of the crime police that took that particular statement. Bulatovic was the name who signed the document.

This criminal report was written, was compiled by Captain Music Hamdija and Captain Aleksic Zoran. Yes, that's right, Aleksic Zoran. And Radulovic Predrag, warrant officer. And that is also in the crime inspection department.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know these persons who took the statement?

A. Yes. They are members of the crime prevention department of the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec. They work in the homicide and sexual crimes department.

Q. Colonel, tell me, please, when did the Verification Mission of the OSCE arrive? I don't mean generally speaking in Kosovo and Metohija, but when did they arrive in the territory under your secretariat, that is to say in Pec?

A. As for the area of the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, there were members of different missions. In 1998, there were about four members of a mission of the European Union from the very outset, since ³⁹⁰¹⁴ around March 1998.

As for the Verification Mission in Kosovo, it arrived in the area of Pec towards the end of November and the beginning of December, but before that there was the KDOM mission, this American mission. And also the European monitors were there, as we called them.

Q. All right. Tell me, how could they move about, the members of these missions, in your area, in those five municipalities?

A. The members of the missions in fact had full control, unrestricted control and unrestricted movement unless their movement was restricted by members of the KLA. That I don't know. But in our territory, they had full freedom of movement and full cooperation from us. The police had orders to accommodate them always and to help them whenever they required assistance. As a matter of fact, the Ministry of the Interior had a set of instructions in terms of conduct towards members of the missions, and these instructions were received by each and every policeman, and they acted accordingly. That is to say that they freely moved about the entire territory.

Q. Unrestricted?

A. Unrestricted.

Q. Did the police give advance notice to the members of the Verification Mission about their activities?

A. According to the instructions, it was the obligation and duty of the police to inform them in advance of their activities, and that was done in every situation.

Q. All right. Did the members of the Verification Mission attend ³⁹⁰¹⁵ various activities of the Ministry of the Interior?

A. Yes. It depended on what they wanted, and for the most part they did attend.

Q. The members of the Verification Mission, did they visit the various facilities of the Ministry of the Interior?

A. Yes. They had the right to enter any facility at their own free will and to inspect it, a police station, any police unit. They did not have to announce this in advance. They could come unannounced. They came to see me too.

Q. All right. Tell me, who were the main victims of the KLA attack while the Verification Mission was in your area?

A. The police and civilians. There were attacks against the police. There were attacks against civilians. Several Albanians were killed in that period. The members of the so-called KLA violated the ceasefire - I have to use that expression - more than 50 times.

Q. You're talking about Pec only?

A. Yes, yes. They attacked the police and civilians. They violated the ceasefire in the presence of the Verification Mission. As for the on-site investigations that were carried out, the members of the mission who could attend could see for themselves that this was done by the so-called KLA. Quite simply, in the territory that they held, they would shoot at a vehicle. They would kill an Albanian. When we would examine the bullet-riddled vehicle, we would see that this was undoubtedly done by members of the so-called KLA, and they were even wearing uniforms. This went by unpunished. We were criticised all the ³⁹⁰¹⁶ time by this mission, though.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm concerned that you may have evidence to adduce from this witness which may be very relevant to some of the paragraphs in the indictment, but it is not being led. Now, he has just said in response to your question as to who were the main victims of the KLA attack, he says there were attacks against civilians and several Albanians were killed, and there are many paragraphs in the indictment that allege that Serb forces killed Albanians and civilians. Those are acts that the indictment attributes to you. So that if he has evidence that relates to any of these attacks, then you should lead it, but leading it in this very general way will not advance your case very much, in my view, at any rate. You should relate it to the districts, the villages that are mentioned in the indictment. For example, earlier he also said that the Serbian authorities in Kosovo launched anti-terrorist drives, and it may be that in the course of these drives there were conflicts, and in the conflicts Albanians and civilians were killed. That would also be very relevant if you can relate that to specific paragraphs in the indictment.

And please understand that I'm not saying that you have to do anything. The system that we have here is that you can remain silent, although I acknowledge that given your proclivity for loquacity that might be difficult. You can remain silent and still walk free at the end of the day here because the burden is on the Prosecution. But to the extent that you are advancing a defence, I'm concerned as to whether it's being put in the best way, because you need to relate it more specifically to the ³⁹⁰¹⁷ paragraphs in the indictment which relate to attacks by Serb forces on specific villages. And all you have to do is to throw a reasonable doubt on those allegations, because at the end of the day we'll have to be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt about the truth of the allegations in the indictment, and if you have evidence that can refute that, to show that there was a conflict that either the Serb forces were responding to an attack at a particular village or that they were proactive by launching an anti-terrorist drive in the fulfilment of their lawful duties, and in the course of that Albanians and civilians were killed, then I think that may very well raise a reasonable doubt about the truthfulness of the allegations in the indictment. But this has to be done in a more specific way. It has to be done by relating the evidence to the villages and the districts that are mentioned in the indictment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that what the witness is saying is very clear and that it abundantly demonstrates how widespread this efficient commission by crimes by the KLA was in the region that the witness is testifying about.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It may very well do that. But as to whether it demonstrates the same thing in relation to a specific village that is the subject of an allegation in the indictment is another matter.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Some things are mentioned and others are not. I shall remind you, though, Mr. Robinson, that during the examination of the previous witness, who was from Pec and who was a victim whose son was killed in Cafe Panda, that was Mr. Gvozdenovic, Mr. Saxon claimed that it was precisely in the area of Pec, where this witness is ³⁹⁰¹⁸ from, and he quoted a document at that, asserting that, that a major deportation was carried out, or as he put it, ethnic cleansing of Albanians in the area.

At that critical time, the witness was in that area. So I believe it is highly relevant for us to hear what he has to say about this. I'm not going to ask him about individual crimes at the time. After all, the Verification Mission also conducted on-site investigations. But I will have to ask him about this, about these persecutions and deportations, because you know full well in this alleged indictment there are large-scale deportations and persecutions that are referred to, carried out by the authorities, that is to say the military and the police, as it says here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried to find this very specifically as far as deportations are concerned. I tried to find Pec, although Mr. Saxon said last time that in Pec the largest scale and most successful deportation was carried out in Pec, but Pec is not mentioned in this indictment.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Decani is in your territory, isn't it?

A. Yes. At first it was, but not now.

Q. All right. So not at that time. Then Djakovica? Djakovica is in your territory?

A. Not later. Pec, Istok, and Klina were.

Q. All right. As for this assertion made by Mr. Saxon at our last ³⁹⁰¹⁹ sitting that it was in Pec that the most successful ethnic cleansing was carried out, I think that this is sufficiently relevant and that we should hear what this witness knows about that.

Colonel, tell us, please, when did citizens of Albanian ethnicity start leaving Kosovo?

A. It is hard to give an exact date. They started leaving Kosovo and Metohija as far as back as 1998, in larger numbers, I mean. I already spoke about that. Particularly in the spring and summer of 1998. We registered that at police checkpoints. It was a process, and it went on in 1998 and in 1999.

Q. All right. Let us just make a distinction. You explained a few moments ago when you said that they were leaving at the time and that you established that at checkpoints, they were leaving primarily in order to avoid conscription.

A. That's right.

Q. Conscription into the KLA?

A. And payments to the KLA, and also they were concerned. They were afraid for their own lives.

Q. What about Serbs and other non-Albanians? Were they leaving Kosovo at that time in 1998 when this was this wave of departures of Albanians because they were threatened by the KLA?

A. Yes, yes. A great many Serbs also left Pec. Some took their wives and children from Pec, left them with their relatives in Serbia, in Sumadija or in Montenegro, and they returned to the area. They were worried about their wives and children. ³⁹⁰²⁰ I already mentioned that on the 6th of July, 1998, that we engaged in fighting on the outskirts of Pec or in the suburbs of Pec. They were afraid that the terrorists would take the town, and that is when both Serbs and Albanians left the area.

Q. All right. As for the area of Pec in 1998 -- when I say the area of Pec, I always mean the area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec, so I don't mean only the municipality of Pec but your entire area of responsibility. Were there any displaced persons there at that time?

A. Yes, yes. There were displaced Serbs and Albanians.

Q. Why? Why were these persons displaced? Why did they leave their houses, their homes, their villages?

A. They feared for their lives. They feared that they would be killed or wounded.

Q. All right. You said that displaced persons included both Serbs and Albanians. Where were they in the area of the SUP of Pec?

A. For the most part, it depended on where people could stay. Some were put up by their relatives in Pec, some by relatives in other villages where security was less threatened. That's as far as Pec and Kosovo and Metohija were concerned. A significant number were even abroad, people who had relatives abroad.

Q. Tell me, did the state organs help displaced persons?

A. Yes. A few moments ago, we saw the statement of one of these displaced persons where he said that he was held by the police. And it wasn't only the police. It was the social welfare service and other organisations that provided them with food, medical care. So it was not ³⁹⁰²¹ only the job of the police but of the entire state administration.

Q. Colonel, were measures taken to have the displaced persons returned to their homes?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of measures?

A. In order for them to return to their homes, the territory had to be deblocked first and foremost. They could not go back to their homes if they were in the territory that was held by the so-called KLA. There were terrorist actions there, and anti-terrorist action had to be taken in order to deblock the area, to create a situation of safety and security so these people could go back to their homes. Then the return of these persons started from the places where they had been staying, especially people who were staying out in the open after they had fled. This was the end of the summer. Autumn was starting. The weather would become most inclement.

Q. Did you take part in any one of these activities aimed at returning displaced persons to their homes?

A. Yes, I did. Yes. Not only myself, but others. There were many participants involved. I am one of the participants in one of these situations.

It was from the area of the municipality of Decani. There were displaced persons from the municipality of Pec who were staying in the municipality of Decani. There were many of them there. My orders were to go to that village of Istinic, to report to General Stevanovic in order to take part in a particular assignment. I ³⁹⁰²² went there, I reported to him, and he said that he had a terrible problem, that the return of these persons could not be conducted properly because there weren't enough vehicles. They tried to carry this through. They engaged a few buses on the previous day, but there would be a great many persons who would board a bus, and the roads were bad. It was my understanding that that was the situation, and I said to General Stevanovic that before that he had to carry out certain organisational preparations.

I went back to Pec. I called various transportation companies, asking them to have buses made available to us. We didn't want the same situation as the previous day to occur again, and then I had to put a policeman on each and every bus so that the drivers would not run away again.

The policemen were given a clear task that this had to be done until people returned home. I went to Istinic again with that team and I reported to General Stevanovic, who was on his feet all the time. He was in charge of this job lest there be any kind of mistake. Everything was therefore under absolute control. He regulated how this would take place. There were men, women, and children involved. Probably among them were members of the so-called KLA as well. We saw that from the weapons that they left behind in the area.

Then the convoys set out. There were also ox carts and tractors. Some people walked.

I also set out for Pec. As I drove by these vehicles with the displaced persons, I saw that the beginning of the column was in Pec, and ³⁹⁰²³ they were still leaving the area of Istinic, and the distance involved is about 18 kilometres. That is to say that the column was about 20 kilometres long for sure.

Q. And where did these people go?

A. They went to their homes. Some of the houses were probably destroyed or damaged, but they did return to the places where they used to live before, before they had fled.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, when was this?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was September 1998. And why do I think that? I can --

JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. That's sufficient for me. May I express a personal -- personal concern that we're approaching four hours into this evidence, and I think there's hardly been a reference to 1999, which is the period covered by the indictment, and I simply make the remark to express my concern in the hope that Mr. Milosevic might take some heed of it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bonomy, but I do believe these things are not separable from each other.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What were the reasons for Albanians to leave Kosovo before the bombing?

A. Well, fear from the bombing. That applied not only to Albanians. We were all afraid.

Q. Now I am talking only Albanians, only about Albanians. Where did Albanians from the area of responsibility of the Pec SUP go? ^{39024 BLANK PAGE 39025}

A. They went to Montenegro. I'm trying to visualise it on the map. They went to the Sumadija area in Serbia. They went to Macedonia. Depending on where they had relatives and family.

Q. Did some go to Albania?

A. Yes, to Albania too. They went in different directions.

Q. I have just found what I was unable to find before when I went through these documents. That is para 63(a).

Colonel, I will read out to you something that I believe is directly and fully relevant. It is actually subparagraph (e). It says Pec.

"On or about 27 and 28 March, 1999, in the city of Pec forces of the FRY and Serbia went from house to house, forcing Kosovo Albanians to leave. Some houses were set on fire, and a number of people were shot. Soldiers and police were stationed along every street, directing the Kosovo Albanians toward the town centre. Once the people reached the centre of town, those without cars or vehicles were forced to get on buses or trucks and were driven to the town of Prizren. Outside Prizren, the Kosovo Albanians were forced to get off the buses and trucks and walk approximately 15 kilometres to the Albanian border where, prior to crossing the border, they were ordered to turn their identification papers over to forces of the FRY and Serbia."

So this is an example relating to your area, and similar allegations are made in respect of all the other cases of what is alleged to be forced deportation. So the allegation is that the army and the police deported Albanians. Another allegation made here in many different ³⁹⁰²⁶ occasions is that Albanians were made to flee, and they fled to Serbia and Montenegro.

What was the army in Serbia and Montenegro? Was it the same army that allegedly forced them to leave Kosovo?

A. I really can't understand that.

Q. I will ask you, since you were there on the spot in Pec, to tell us what really happened. As far as Serbs are concerned, it is not alleged here that the army and the police made them to flee. The allegation seems to be that Serbs left on their own while Albanians were deported. Why did both Albanians and Serbs leave?

A. When the state of war was proclaimed and when the bombing began on the 24th of March, chaos reigned together with panic. People could see on television the same evening, on the 24th of March, and I saw that myself, that entire complexes of buildings were in flames, and everybody was concerned that the same thing was going to happen to them. Everybody was concerned about their families, including us policemen. We were concerned for our children, and everybody tried to take at least children somewhere safe if they couldn't leave themselves. So they took them to Montenegro because of some rumours they had all heard before that Montenegro would not be bombed, only Serbia would be bombed. That's why people tried to take their wives and children to Montenegro, even if they had no family there.

Policemen were required to work more intensively, longer hours, because everybody knows what happens when the war starts. Burglaries, thefts, looting are on the rise. We had our hands full. Many reports ³⁹⁰²⁷ were made, and every policeman wanted some time off to take their family out of Kosovo, and we had difficulty approving all these applications, and still they all managed to take their families somewhere safe. In Pec, the movement of people in all directions was more intense than usual. We had increased movement of uniformed men. Mobilisation was intensified. People had uniforms at home. They would put on those uniforms, and those who are engaged in any kind of military affairs know that mobilisation is not carried out all over the place, but people are told instead to gather at a single assembly point. Everything was so crowded that you couldn't tell who was going where. An observer who was trying to make out what was going on had a very difficult time understanding, and we were required to regulate the movement of all these people and even, as required, to protect particular buildings from terrorist attack.

On the 24th March in the evening, I myself told some civilians who approached us policemen to get away from us because we would not openly be targeted by bombing, we would also be the favourite target of terrorists. We took up our usual positions. We didn't take any new positions. Those positions were determined by security estimates and assessments where police presence was required. The role of the traffic police was to stop vehicles and pedestrians, to check drivers' licenses and IDs, and the role of the regular police was to detect persons who were being searched for --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's time for a question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ³⁹⁰²⁸

Q. So, Colonel, during those days, if I understand what you just said, would it be correct to say that both Serbs and Albanians were fleeing the bombing?

A. Absolutely true.

Q. Very well. Having read to you this para 63(e) -- we have to take things in a certain order. It says here some houses were set on fire and several persons were shot. That means in Pec in those critical days houses were set on fire and a number of people were shot.

A. Shot by whom?

Q. Wait for me to finish the question. In this tab 1, under 1.4, do we have the list of all security related incidents involving loss of life in your area, in the area of your Secretariat of the Interior --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- a chronological list of all incidents?

MR. NICE: It's normal hour of rising. Simply an administrative point I should make: I don't know how long the accused is going to be with his examination of this witness. All I do know is that when he finishes I shall have to decide as between using time to cross-examine on the matters that he's dealt with already or on other matters, and I haven't made any decisions on that. It's entirely conceivable that cross-examination on some of the matters that he's raised today simply I won't be ready for them tomorrow because I won't be in a position to take a position, so I might find myself asking for adjournment of, in any event, part of the cross-examination. I very much hope not, but I just ³⁹⁰²⁹ raise it as a possibility so that if the accused forecasts finishing with this witness early tomorrow, he and those advising him might need to have another witness available for tomorrow.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We have another matter tomorrow as well.

MR. NICE: I forgot.

JUDGE BONOMY: Is there really anything in what we've heard today that requires cross-examination?

MR. NICE: Well, there may well be not, Your Honour, but in any case, I'm just explaining that that would, of course, be another reason for the accused having another witness here. One way and another, I'd ask him to have that in mind, because last week we lost an entire session for lack of witness availability, or lack of witness readiness. I don't know against whose account that is being counted but it would be very unfortunate if it happened again tomorrow.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll bear that in mind, Mr. Nice. It's now time for the adjournment. We could spend another five minutes. Another five minutes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For instance, Mr. Robinson, just one key point: In 63(e), it says that a number of people were shot.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, is it the case that here in tab 1.4 we have a chronological list of all incidents involving loss of life, even if a person died in a hospital?

A. Yes. Yes, we can find that under that tab.

Q. Can we see, for instance, from number 113, under number 113, even ³⁹⁰³⁰ though it's not translated, we can see the number and the date. That's where the 24th March begins, and then it goes on. Let us see, since we have the 27th, the 28th, and other dates here, we can see that on the 27th a member of the army of Yugoslavia was killed, Srdjan, son of Radmilo, Milosevic. It says on the 27th of March, one soldier killed. On the 28th -- the previous incident I mentioned was in Klina, not in Pec. In Istok on the 28th, another Serb was killed, Bratislav Radnic. In Celopek, near Pec, on the 30th of March, Milos Otovic, Veljko Petrovic, member of the army, was killed in Kapusnica [phoen]. On the 31st of March two persons killed; Dragan Makic and Sladjan Stosic, lieutenant. A number of people with less serious injuries. Serbs.

The first Albanian casualty is on the 1st of April. Adem Seljmaj, killed from a small calibre gun. His wife, Rahima Gashi, a civilian. It goes on to mention the criminal report made, et cetera. A common law marriage was involved in this case.

And then again on the 1st of April another policeman was killed, Igor Urosevic. 1st of April another Serbian casualty. On the 2nd of April, Serbian casualty, and so on. And only on the 2nd of April in Pec, in the settlement of Kakaric, a member of the KLA, Ahmet Hasani, from Pec, was killed. As we can see from here, this was the first person killed --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, a question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thus, if it says in the indictment that on the 27th and 28th March, 1999, a number of people were shot by the army and the police, would then somebody be killed in Pec in those days if the army and the ³⁹⁰³¹ police were shooting?

A. Certainly.

Q. Well, did anyone get killed in Pec during those days? We have the documentation here.

A. No.

Q. Do you know of anyone who fired a gun in Pec in those first days when the bombing began, when people were fleeing Pec?

A. I have no such information. Maybe there was some sporadic shooting, but not targeted shooting at specific persons.

Q. Well, we see from these documents that nobody was killed. Do you remember any shooting?

A. Well, it's difficult for me to say whether there was any shooting on that day in particular because there was shooting all the time. We're talking about a plane here. Any shooting is heard at several kilometres distance.

Q. But in these particular days quoted here, can you tell us that nobody got hurt?

A. Correct.

Q. Well, it says here that a number of people were shot. It says so in the indictment, and we can establish whether they were or they were not. It also says that houses were set on fire. Did anyone from the army or the police set a single house on fire in Pec?

A. No. Neither the police nor the army ever did anything of the kind.

Q. Were there any fires in Pec at the time? And let us be precise: ³⁹⁰³² We are talking about the 27th and the 28th of March when great masses of people were gathering in the centre of Pec town. Were there any fires?

A. Yes, there were fires.

Q. Where?

A. Somewhere on the outskirts. You could see them.

Q. Very well. Did fire brigades intervene?

A. No.

Q. Why didn't they?

A. Well, they were unable to go there.

Q. Why were they unable; for security reasons or --

A. What do you mean why? The moment we moved to go anywhere, we get shot at. How can we send fire brigades? Fire brigades are not members of the SUP.

Q. All fire brigades, as we know, are parts of the Ministry of the Interior. If the fire brigades were unable to go to those areas where there were fires because they were shot at the moment they tried, was anyone able to go there to set a house on fire in those areas controlled by the KLA?

A. Nobody from our side could do that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there are about five other allegations in 65(e). You can just go through them in the seven remaining minutes before 2.00 and close your examination of this witness. That would be a very good use of the time. He's from Pec, and he can testify as to these allegations.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us deal with all the ³⁹⁰³³ allegations. We have dealt with the shooting. There were no casualties among Albanians, no wounded, no killed. We have dealt with arsons.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, I'm looking at all the allegations here. Are you aware that policemen and soldiers were deployed in every street and forcing Kosovo Albanians to leave?

A. There were no soldiers deployed. Policemen were deployed but not in every street. They were deployed in intersections where they performed their regular job, but there were no troops, no army troops around.

MR. NICE: But the deportation allegation, that they were forcing people to go to the town centre and then, once there, forced them to get on buses and being driven to Prizren, can you comment on that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I was going to ask him. Precisely.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Regarding the deployment of the police, we have clarified that there was no army, whereas the police occupied its normal posts to regulate traffic.

A. Correct.

Q. How many policemen were there on that day in the centre of Pec, in total, where they performed their regular jobs?

A. I don't know about that day. I can tell you the total number --

Q. Tell us the maximum possible number of policemen that could have been present in the broader centre of Pec.

A. There could have been no more than 50 in total in the broader ³⁹⁰³⁴ centre, depending on what you call the broader centre. We had certain permanent police posts that were always manned by the police to control movement of vehicles and persons. We had certain restrictions. We could not man more posts even if we had wanted to. We work in four or five shifts. We have a certain available number of policemen that we divide into four or five shifts, and that's all we can do.

Q. So they were occupying their regular police posts.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. We clarified this. Now, tell me, do you know whether anyone forced Albanians to board buses or trucks in order to leave Kosovo and Metohija?

A. No. Why buses or trucks? They could move around any way they pleased. They could go in their own carts, in their own cars, in their ox carts, in tractors. Why would anybody force them onto buses?

Q. I'm just pointing to this sentence from 63(e) which says, "Once the people reached the centre of town, those without cars or vehicles were forced to get on buses or trucks and were driven to the town of Prizren." I have quoted to you this entire sentence. Tell me, is this true or not?

A. First of all, it doesn't make sense to me. It seems to say that these people first arrived into the centre of town and then those who did not have cars were forced to board buses.

Q. Are you now referring to what I just quoted? Is that true or not true?

A. I don't even understand what is meant by this allegation. So in order for this to be true, somebody was standing in the centre of town to ³⁹⁰³⁵ establish who had a car and who didn't. If you had a car, you could go on and if you didn't have a car, you had to go onto the bus.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know or did you hear of Albanians getting on buses and trucks and getting out of the town of -- and getting out of the town and moving -- and going on to Prizren?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I neither saw nor heard anybody boarding buses, but I heard that people left by bus. People left in their own passenger cars, in their ox carts, tractors, buses as well. I haven't heard of anybody who left by truck, but that also is possible because I wouldn't have been able to see anybody under a tarpaulin.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please. There is one question that is critical here: Did anyone force an Albanian to board a bus in order to leave?

A. I know nothing about that. I never heard or saw anything of the kind.

Q. You said there was no army around. Was any policeman performing the job of forcing Albanians to board buses in order to leave?

A. Well, the police was regulating traffic and performing all the other normal police work; protecting lives, protecting property, but that did not include putting people on buses.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Where exactly were you on the 27th and 28th of March?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was probably the day when the centre of Pec was so terribly overcrowded. On that day, I was in the centre of Pec, and I was moving along other roads. There were ³⁹⁰³⁶ bottlenecks. During those days, I even went to Kula, which is a pass leading to Montenegro. All the streets were completed flooded with people.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What were you doing on those days?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was giving instructions to the traffic police to take up posts in a certain place, to accelerate the movement of vehicles. For instance, in the control post at Savine Vode, I told policemen to simplify the procedure of control to let a maximum number of vehicles through towards Kula, because this is an uphill road. Movement is very slow. So if you stop a vehicle --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we're coming -- I want you could conclude your examination-in-chief, and then tomorrow or the next day that we meet we'll deal with the exhibits.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have quite a number of questions left to ask this witness.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... of this witness's testimony, and I will only allow you to ask any further questions if they are relevant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I continue?

JUDGE ROBINSON: For another three minutes, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. To make this absolutely precise, at the time you were chief of traffic police.

A. Yes.

Q. You regulated traffic as usual? ³⁹⁰³⁷

A. Yes.

Q. The only difference is when there are more crowds and when there are less.

A. Yes. And then we try to divert traffic to different directions.

Q. Do you know about gatherings of Albanians in the centre of Pec and their departure?

A. I'm trying to remember that precise date, but I know that during those days there were intense crowds.

Q. You said that you were in a particular place yourself. Where did the citizens gather?

A. On the square in the centre of Pec.

Q. Where did they come from?

A. From various parts of the town and from villages. That's what I know from reports from my patrols.

Q. How many civilians were there in the centre?

A. The square was full. In my own estimate, there were about 10.000 people.

Q. Did anyone address the citizens?

A. I do not know the Albanian language. There were some speeches made. I don't know what those people were saying. I don't know even who they were. This was not an organised rally so that we would know from an announcement who was going to hold speeches. There were some shouts and speeches through the bullhorn, but I don't know what was being said.

Q. That was unofficial talk between them, but did any authorities address them? ³⁹⁰³⁸

A. No. There were no authorities present.

Q. Did any citizens address you personally?

A. Yes.

Q. What did they ask you?

A. They were questions that I couldn't understand even at the time, but I later understood what they meant. They asked me whether they could go to Montenegro in their own cars. I couldn't understand why on earth they were asking me that. I told them simply that they were free to go wherever they pleased and using whatever vehicle they wanted to.

Q. All right. They asked you whether they could take cars to Montenegro and go to Montenegro by car and you said that they could go wherever they wanted to go.

A. Yes. They were asking whether the police or the military would prevent them from doing so, and our answer was that no one would restrict them in any way, either if they wanted to move towards Montenegro or other parts of the country.

Q. All right. Tell me, please --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to stop now. We have gone 20 minutes beyond the break. There is another matter that the Chamber will be hearing tomorrow, but the parties should be on standby for the resumption of this case in the event that that becomes possible. I hope that is clear.

We are adjourned.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask something. Do ³⁹⁰³⁹ you have something different going on tomorrow morning?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we do. Yes. But you have to be on standby in the event that that matter concludes in sufficient time for us to continue this hearing. And the Registry will take care of logistical arrangements.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.06 p.m., sine die.