⁴¹⁷³⁵

Tuesday, 5 July 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, briefly about forthcoming Defence witnesses.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, microphone.

MR. NICE: Briefly about forthcoming Defence witnesses. My understanding is that this witness will last all day today in chief and cross-examination may therefore go into next week, but that will still leave a week and a bit before the recess. Ms. Dicklich has a good working relationship with the accused's associates, and we get certain amounts of information about what may happen, but obviously I do my best to treat as confidential the sort of information that would be passed as between counsel on a confidential basis and restrict my observations to what I know the accused or his associates would be happy for me to tell you directly.

What I can tell you directly is that the next three notified witnesses, and I don't think there's any protection for their names, are as present Janicevic, Ibraj, and Fazliu. We have been alerted today, and I think I can tell you this, to the fact that Janicevic, who is said to be dealing with Urosevac, and in particular Racak and Kacanik, may be producing 500 exhibits, none of them on the 65 ter list so far as I know, not yet served. And I simply have to say that the time has come to say I ⁴¹⁷³⁶ will object to dealing with that quantity of exhibits through this witness being presented to us this late in the day. We simply cannot adequately deal with it.

The next two witnesses, the Court may remember, were not identified by name until I think it was last week. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. Their 65 ter summaries for testimony said to last only two hours in each case are brief to the point of being effectively useless for us. Says one will testify about his experience in the local police as about the circumstances in Djakovica, and the other one says that he cooperated with police in Urosevac and will testify about his cooperation and knowledge of events in the area.

Again, although we've discussed 65 ter summaries in advance, and I'm well aware of the Court's rulings, I'd ask the Court to look at these 65 ter summaries now given that we've been provided with no documents in relation to these witnesses which would flesh out in any way in advance the nature of the testimony they're going to give, I'd ask the Court to look at those and be prepared for the fact that I may object to dealing with them in cross-examination if I find that I am taken by surprise. So this is an advance warning through the Court to the accused that the -- this is an advanced warning to the accused through the Court that I may be objecting to each of these three witnesses when they come to give evidence if I'm not in a position to deal with them for the reasons I've outlined.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what do you say in response to the ⁴¹⁷³⁷ -- to what the Prosecutor has just stated?

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated].

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not getting any translation.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before I answer this, I also have a comment, a request, and I would say even a protest. I envisaged, and it's on the witness list, that witness Vojislav Seselj begin on the 18th. Last week, I informed the Registry that I should see him and speak to him. That was supposed to happen yesterday, but I was informed that I could not. I don't know if the Registry is allowed to prevent me from contacting a witness. That is a serious witness who would be testifying for a long time about important elements. It is a witness mentioned in the indictment, or what Mr. Nice calls the indictment. It is a witness --

JUDGE ROBINSON: When do you plan to call him? He's not on the list for your next three witnesses.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He is on the list. I don't know why the entire list hasn't been submitted to you. I plan to call him on the 18th.

In any case, when I am going to contact any of the witnesses is something that I should be able to decide alone. It's my business. Because I'm forced within the time limitations to use every day, every afternoon, for contacts with witnesses. And last week when I met with Mr. Seselj, I had agreed to see him yesterday, but yesterday I was informed instead that he was not allowed to see me. ⁴¹⁷³⁸ Would you please issue an order to prevent such incidents from happening, that I should not be again prevented from seeing a witness that is supposed to testify here.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the first matter, I see you have employed the strategy of raising another matter before dealing with what the Prosecutor has himself raised, but never mind that. Where is this list on which Mr. Seselj is placed as a witness to testify on the 18th? We don't have it. We have a list with three witnesses.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The list is with the liaison officer. As for the witness list, Mr. Seselj has been there from the beginning, and you received that list a year ago.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not talking about the witness list in general. I'm talking about the week-by-week list on which you say Mr. Seselj is placed to appear on the 18th.

Can the liaison officer assist?

MS. ANOYA: Your Honours, the list that I received on the 30th of June does not have Mr. Seselj's name. It is the list that I have filed and it's only the four witnesses including General Delic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's what you received from the associates.

MS. ANOYA: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There you have it, Mr. Milosevic. That, of course, is not a full answer to the issue you have raised, but that matter needs to be attended to.

As for the complaint that you've made, I'll ask the Registrar to ⁴¹⁷³⁹ report to us on the matter. The Registrar will be required to report to the Chamber on the matter, and the Chamber will make the appropriate decision.

Will you now deal with the two complaints raised by the --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will answer those objections immediately, but please bear one thing in mind: My time is precious. I plan to see Mr. Seselj this afternoon. Would you please deal with this within the course of the day, otherwise I won't be able to use this afternoon. In view of the schedule that is with the Registry, the witnesses who are to follow are not here yet although I asked for them to be here beginning with Monday, and I cannot suffer for reasons that I don't understand.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I take account of what you have said. It may not be realistic to expect the Registrar to report by today, but the Chamber will require the Registrar to report to us as soon as possible, bearing in mind in particular that you wish to interview Mr. Seselj this afternoon, and that directive will be passed on to the Registrar by the Court deputy.

Now, as to the 500 --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, this list that ⁴¹⁷⁴⁰ the liaison officer provided a moment ago is not at all contradictory to what I said, because this list contains three witnesses for this week, and I told you I was planning to call Mr. Seselj in the week beginning with the 18th. This is the list only for this week. Today is the 5th. So much about that. And I would really appreciate it if there would be no more of such inconvenience.

Second, in response to what Mr. Nice said about exhibits for Mr. Janicevic not being translated, Professor Rakic informed me that he had submitted these documents more than a month ago. I don't know what happened with them. I appreciate that there are certain problems due to the capacities of your translation service, which would continue to translate my exhibits for the next 50 years if they continued at the same rate as before, 1.000 pages a month, but if you do not deal with this, I will understand that is one more hindrance to my Defence case, and I will simply call him while waiting for the translations.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the technical complaint is that the exhibits, some 500, are not on the exhibit list, and that is required by the Rules.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I fully understand these procedural problems that you are pointing out. However, since I am not able to communicate and to have all the documents at my disposal, I cannot have these documents in advance, and as you know, I had a very short time to get hold of them, so you must understand that when I call a witness together with the documents to be introduced through him, I should have the right to present these exhibits. ⁴¹⁷⁴¹ I just told you, in this case they were submitted over a month ago. I appreciate all the problems related to resources, but please, you should bear this in mind and try to deal with it, because I cannot suffer constant inconvenience and problems that arise from -- here. The liaison officer is telling me that the documents for Janicevic were returned to Professor Rakic on the 26th of May due to the 1.000 page limit. That is just one more thing proving what I'm saying.

I did submit all these documents and then they are returned to me because of the page limit. What am I supposed to do, wait for this limit to be exhausted? Then time is lost. I don't see how you expect me to deal with this problem. This is practically what amounts to obstruction to my Defence case, to the facts that I want to present, just as the same as preventing me from speaking with my witnesses. Nobody has had to suffer that before.

[In English]... Professor Rakic on 26th of May due to 1.000 pages limit. [Interpretation] Please, I cannot deal with the limits of your services. Please don't expect me to.

JUDGE BONOMY: The matter that concerns me not is not a technical issue at all, but I observe from Mr. Nice's comments that you have deliberately failed to give him copies of these documents, and that's inexcusable in view of what happened I think the week before last when I made my own observations about that failure. That seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to obstruct the Prosecution in their work.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Bonomy, that if we are talking about any indications of obstruction, I am the victim of that ⁴¹⁷⁴² obstruction. And I have said this publicly, and I won't repeat it again: Every document the Registry receives as a potential exhibit from me should immediately be available to Mr. Nice. The Registry's authorised to give him that.

So if the translation service returned the documents for Mr. Janicevic, that doesn't mean at all that copies of what has been given to the translation service cannot be provided by Mr. Nice [as interpreted]. There is absolutely no reason why that shouldn't be done. They are authorised to give him everything immediately.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, I carefully went over this the last time. It is not the obligation of the Registrar to give Mr. Nice the documents. It is your obligation to give them to him direct, and you were clearly advised of that, and it appears to me you are intent upon never complying with that Rule.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no comment to what you say, Mr. Bonomy. I submit my documents through the liaison officer, and I have no other contacts.

MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours, I don't want to take any more time but simply to say that His Honour Judge Bonomy is quite right and we have received none of the Janicevic material nor until this morning did I know there was going to be anything like 500 documents. If Seselj is seen and is called, we've received no notification of any documents, presumably a large amount, that he will be producing. None are revealed on the 65 ter list. And the accused hasn't dealt at all with the inadequacy of the 65 ter summaries for the other two witnesses, but, ⁴¹⁷⁴³ Your Honours, I don't want to take any more time. I made my position and I may simply object to these witnesses being called.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll do two things: We are going to ask for a report by the CLSS in relation to those documents that you say were returned to you on May the 26th. The CLSS will provide a report on that.

As for the 500 exhibits that have not been placed on the exhibit list in accordance with the Rules, you will be required to submit a written application for their late application, their late addition to the exhibit list, with an explanation as to why the late application should be granted.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. May I now continue? With regard to Mr. Nice's objection.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We've dealt with that. Oh, yes. Go ahead. Go ahead.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Concerning these two witnesses, I did provide an explanation. Namely, we didn't provide names long in advance for security reasons. Those two witnesses will not be testifying for two hours but much shorter because they are very specific. There are no documents to be introduced through them. So therefore we have testimony without any exhibits. Those will be witnesses testifying to events they eyewitnessed when they were on the ground. So I see absolutely no reason why they should not be allowed to testify.

JUDGE ROBINSON: So there are no exhibits in relation to Muharem ⁴¹⁷⁴⁴ and Fazliu.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE BONOMY: The concern in this case, Mr. Milosevic, is not so much documents or length of evidence. I think it's identifying what the evidence's about. And if these witnesses are eyewitnesses to specific events, it should be possible in a 65 ter summary to give an indication of the dates and places that they will be speaking about. That appears to me to be fair notice in a 65 ter summary.

Now, are you not in a position to amplify what is here in relation to each of these witnesses by giving information about the dates and places of the events that they will speak of?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I don't know that Rule 65 ter is binding on me for me to present in detail what the witness is going to testify about. A few sentences about the contents of the testimony have been provided. And I -- I haven't seen the witnesses yet. I'm going to see them in future. I asked to see them beforehand, but they won't be available before the end of the week.

JUDGE BONOMY: As you should know, the Rule requires you to include in the list a summary of the facts on which each witness will testify and the points in the indictment as to which witness will testify, and neither of these is dealt with in either of these 65 ter summaries. So on one view you are in breach of that Rule, and obviously if Mr. Nice takes objection we will have to consider it in the light of that unless you do provide additional information once you've seen the witnesses. And it would be helpful once you've seen them if you could give an indication ⁴¹⁷⁴⁵ of the dates and places about which they will speak.

JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, I'm very much concerned about the use of time of yours. How many more witnesses are you going to call for Kosovo indictment?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would have to check that, Mr. Kwon, and then give you an answer as precise as I can make it, but off the top of my head I can't give you an answer just now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You should bear in mind, Mr. Milosevic, that you have utilised about half of the time that has been allotted to you, and you're still dealing with the first of three indictments, Kosovo. Let the witness be brought in.

[The witness entered court]

WITNESS: BOZIDAR DELIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Milosevic. Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

A. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. We left off discussing document 394, which was tendered by Colonel Vlatko Vukovic and refers to the actions of the unit from the 25th to the 28th of March. I'm now going to ask you, General, to try and speed the process up and get through the documents as quickly as possible with just some of the most important points focused on.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no translation for this document, Mr. Milosevic. If you're going to deal with it briefly, then so be it. ^{41746 BLANK PAGE 41747} If not, then have it placed on the ELMO.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, have you got the document on the overhead projector?

A. Yes, I have, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Is it document number 394?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now, may we have your comments, please, on what Colonel Vukovic says here about the fighting; how many -- when it happened and -- I see here it says that the -- there were no inhabitants in the village, that some parts of uniforms were found, et cetera.

A. Well, he's explaining the second day, that is to say the 26th, and he is explaining what happened in the village of Donje Retimlje. Since his unit was the one that carried this out, checked out the village, they found that there were no inhabitants, but the village, with respect to the yards and vineyards, there were a lot of shelters dug out and parts of uniforms were found.

Q. But it says that the fighting went on for just half an hour and that the Siptar terrorist forces withdrew.

A. Yes. They withdrew towards the vineyard and that there were trenches without civilians.

Q. Is that the substance of his statement?

A. Yes. The greatest resistance was given from the surrounding hills and from the mosque, et cetera.

Q. Very well. Now, in the next document we have a statement by Colonel Stojan Konjikovac. ⁴¹⁷⁴⁸

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the next document?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 395. I don't know if you have the translation of that document or not. But here again we come across this same problem, Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There is no translation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Today we are the 5th of July, and the documents were sent in on the 20th of April for translation. I don't have any complaints about the work of the service, I'm just saying that it is a small service for it to be able to get through all this enormous work. And as we can see, if we haven't got the translations of documents today that were sent in on the 20th of April, then this is a great impediment to our work.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, in the briefest possible terms, not to dwell on the entire document, we have the activities of NATO aviation mentioned here, and your unit had a conflict with the terrorist forces and at the same time it had this problem with NATO aviation, NATO aeroplanes.

A. The problem with NATO aeroplanes was ongoing because there was danger from the air throughout, continuous. I received signals through my operative and I sent them on further to my units. So this in fact is a statement by Colonel Konjikovac, who from the Suva Reka axis, and this is on day 2, and we can see the deployment and distribution of his men here in his unit, the NATO aviation was active twice; 1300 hours and later on. So this other unit coming from Orahovac to join up with the Suva Reka unit was ongoing. That was the axis. And on this particular day this unit, ⁴¹⁷⁴⁹ according to Colonel Konjikovac's statement, the unit was successful because it succeeded in approaching the village of Studencani and take control -- taking control of part of the village of Studencani.

JUDGE KWON: General, what map is it that we are looking at now which is on the ELMO? Do you know the tab number of the map?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you have the maps. This particular map, as there are four maps in all, this is the map of the second day, the second day of operations, and it is the Retimlje series. For the 26th of March.

JUDGE KWON: Can you see the date?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a date there. The date is the 26th of March.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. Tab 391. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, tell me, please, would you prefer us to go through these few documents that contain statements by your officers? Do you want us to go through them quicker?

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, because we can see all that on the map. What they're doing, all the commanders of the combat groups are in fact explaining the operations of their units on that particular day.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, if you agree, we could look at the map and go through the statements faster, reaching tab 425, I think, and go through them that way.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. ⁴¹⁷⁵⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, General, go ahead. Please indicate the essential points in the statements so that we can get through all these tabs until tab 425.

A. So these are statements of all the commanders for this particular day, and we can see here the initial deployment in the morning at 6.00 a.m., then we can see the deployment at 12.00 a.m. 1200 hours, and finally, the distribution at 1800 hours. And we can see the narrowing down of this circle or, rather, the circle around the terrorists have still not been formed, but we can see how the terrorists under -- how the territory under the terrorists' control was reduced and grew smaller during that particular day, the 26th of March.

Q. I'm not going to spend more time there now since Mr. Robinson agreed that we could take these tabs as a group. I would like to draw your attention to document 398 now, please. Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj Paravanja says here that between Djakovica and Prizren, from Prizren during the 26th, that is to say that same day, a large number of civilians were seen to pass through.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. The army didn't have any contact with those civilians. They were moving towards the border, and on several occasions the medical corps helped the civilians passing by that way. So that is what is said here. And then he says that two of his soldiers were killed on that day as well. Was that characteristic of the events that took place that day?

A. Well, for that day what was characteristic was that we saw these ⁴¹⁷⁵¹ groups of civilians appearing, which meant several vehicles, several dozen vehicles, and they were groups, if we can put it that way. So he didn't write this down -- he didn't tell us the direction they were coming from, but as far as I know they were not from the territory of my area of responsibility at all.

In tab 399, we have a statement by Major Sela [phoen] who entered Donje Retimlje with his unit, and he speaks about the equipment that he found there upon entering. Then the next one -- or, rather, I'd like to place this next map on the ELMO for the following day, the 27th of March.

MR. NICE: The Court will of course be alive to the fact that all the statements we've dealt with in the summary way just recently are documents prepared for the commission which is subject to the general observation, and I certainly would need to see them in translation if I am to offer any useful questioning about them, and they will be a topic of some concern in the questions I raise.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We're aware of that, Mr. Nice. Yes, you may continue, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, you said you wished to place the second map on the ELMO for the 27th of March.

A. Yes.

Q. Before we go on to that next map, in some of these tabs you have the observations of your commanders to the effect that they are encountering groups of civilians and that those civilians are moving through their area of deployment and that they tried to tell them to get ⁴¹⁷⁵² away from the combat area and that they are letting them pass through. So there are no excessive situations that we come across here.

A. These are groups of civilians who were -- which were encountered, and they were found in the ditches between the vineyards, in the bushes there, and they were moving towards Mala Krusa according to these statements, and Velika Krusa too. So in addition to the groups that were seen on the first day, according to the assessments of one of the commanders, there were 500, and another man says there were between 6 and 700 individuals.

Q. In document 410, it says that groups of civilians appeared that were moving from Djakovica and Orahovac towards the Albanian border.

A. That is already the 27th.

Q. The unit did not have any contact with the civilians, as per orders, except a few times when the medical team helped those who required assistance.

A. These were groups of civilians moving along the main road.

Q. All right.

JUDGE KWON: We don't have the translation of tab 404. Is that your statement?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE KWON: In relation to what, please?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my statement in relation to the 27th of March, the statement that goes along with this map.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁴¹⁷⁵³

Q. Please be so kind as to explain this map, General, briefly.

A. On the 27th -- during the 27th there was a link-up along the Orahovac-Suva Reka area of combat groups 5 and 6 during the night, during the previous night. A large number of terrorists and an unknown number of inhabitants went to the village of Dobrodeljane. During the 27th there was fighting going on with a few groups of terrorists that had basically been broken up, mostly around the village of Neprebiste. During the course of this day, this combat group 5 moved towards Dobrodeljane. All units were practically given the assignment to return to their own areas by the end of the day.

What is characteristic was that there was a large concentration of population in the village of Mamusa. In relation to the population, I think that there were so many refugees that they practically doubled the population. They came from neighbouring villages. It is a well-known fact that Mamusa is predominantly populated by Turks. I was in contact with these persons, and they said that during the previous days they had had problems with the terrorists, that they had taken away their vehicles and some other things, that there was mistreatment as well. At any rate, they had a major problem on their hands. They had to take in so many refugees.

Before I left this village, I ordered that by the following day at the latest the entire population had to return to their villages. I gave tasks to all the commanders except for the commander of combat group 5, who was blocking the terrorists at Dobrodeljane. Here the forces on the road and those dealing with the blockade, they were supposed to go back to ⁴¹⁷⁵⁴ their original areas.

Only as far as combat group 2 is concerned, since here near the village of Mamusa a soldier had been killed, there was a certain problem with a tank. In Donje Retimlje there was a group left and here above Mamusa there was a group until the 28th, so that this tank could be extracted. And then at 9.00 or 10.00 -- by 9.00 or 10.00 practically all units had left the area except for combat group 5 which remained here facing the village of Dobrodeljane.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we go on, it was observed that at line 14 of page 18 the witness may have said that he was in contact with the residents of Mamusa and it simply got missed from the transcript, and it would be quite an important point if he did say that and it might be worth just checking on our observations. So he had contact with the population is something that may have been said and was not recorded.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you confirm, General, that you did say that you were in contact with the residents of Mamusa?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's also written in my statement.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, have we gone through these statements of yours and have we reached document 424 by now? They all have to do with those three days and what was going on during those three days. ⁴¹⁷⁵⁵

A. Yes. All of these statements have to do with that. 424 is Randubrava.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could you please have these documents up to 424 admitted into evidence.

JUDGE KWON: We have similar documents until 434. Are you not going to deal with the remainders from 424 to 434?

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is off, interpreter's note.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Up to 432 it's the way you said it, Mr. Kwon, similar documents. I would like to deal with them as briefly as possible. But as far as 424 is concerned I have decided to spend some more time on that because it's a map. It has to do with Randubrava on the 25th of March. It speaks in itself as to what was going on at the time.

JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with the admissibility after you're going through with all these documents.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Kwon.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, could you just briefly comment on the map that you provided in document 424. Then also you have your own statement that you signed in document 425.

A. As for this map, we can see in this area three areas where the terrorists were grouped: Randubrava, Donje Retimlje, Gorane, and the third one is Gornje Retimlje, or Retimlje. There was a concentration of terrorist forces there. On the 25th practically these operations started. However, as far as Retimlje is concerned, when we got there there was no civilian population there. Randubrava was taken by our forces. Our ⁴¹⁷⁵⁶ forces entered it on the 26th of March. I think around noon.

Q. General, in document 425 in your own statement I'm just going to quote one sentence around the middle of the statement. It says: "There were never any operations in areas where there was -- where there were civilians."

A. What I said is correct. There were operations taking place in front of Randubrava and Gornje Retimlje. You can see these vineyards. So on these slopes where the trenches were. There were some operations or fire was opened from howitzers and mortars at these trenches.

Q. All right. Can we go on now, General?

A. Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Milosevic. General, in all these places where you went and there was no civilian population there, what is your information or understanding as to what happened to the civilian population?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civilian population -- well, it cannot be seen on this map, but in 1997 and 1998, quite a few alternative roads were built or, rather, local roads. As far as I know, the civilian population from Randubrava went here, towards Mamusa, and they were in Mamusa on the 27th when we got there. That pertains to part of the civilian population. Yet another part probably went across Trudencen [phoen] and Dobrodeljane to the area of Drenica near Malisevo, Banja Belanica, that direction. But part of the civilian population was in Mamusa, here, for sure.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Why did the civilian population go to these ⁴¹⁷⁵⁷ places?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998 also that was customary practice. When combat operations start, the terrorists often use the civilian population to protect themselves from our forces, but the civilian population could never move towards us. They always went in-depth into the territory, where they were sent. The terrorists referred to this as the protection of the population. In that way they were allegedly protecting the population, but actually they were using them as a human shield.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, a few moments ago we quoted from your statement, namely that no fire was ever opened at areas where there were civilians. Now I'm going to draw your attention to this indictment, paragraph 63(b) which has to do with Prizren. It says that: "On the 25th of March, 1999, the forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the village of Pirane with tanks and various military vehicles. The village was shelled and a number of residents were killed. Thereafter, forces of the FRY and Serbia entered the village and burned the houses of Kosovo Albanians. After the attack, the remaining villagers left Pirane and went to surrounding villages." That is related to what Mr. Robinson asked you a few minutes ago. And then further on it is claimed there that in the town of Landovica, an old mosque was burned and heavily damaged by forces of the FRY and Serbia, and then some of the Kosovo Albanians fleeing towards Srbica were killed or wounded by snipers. And then that the forces of the ^{41758 BLANK PAGE 41759} FRY and Serbia launched an offensive in the area of Srbica and shelled the villages of Donje Retimlje and Randubrava. Kosovo Albanian villagers were forced from their homes and sent to the Albanian border. These are all events that you are talking about now and this is what is written here in these accusations. Can you tell us -- or, rather, what can you tell us about these assertions that I read to you?

A. As far as Landovica is concerned, we dealt with it in detail last time when looking at the map.

Q. That's quite clear, General, but it's in this context, too, but I just quoted this section and that's why I mentioned Landovica too. But then there was reference to the village of Pirane, to surrounding it by tanks, shelling the village when many residents were killed, the expulsion of Albanians from their homes and sending them to the Albanian border and things like that. There are several questions you have to deal with here. Did you shell the village? Did you expel the Albanians from their homes? Did you send them to the state border, and so on?

A. The village of Pirane is right here. You can see it on this map. I keep hearing this term "surrounded the village." When that term is used "surrounded," that would mean that the entire village would be encircled. All these maps, including the main map, show that this village was not encircled. This village is just by the road between Prizren and Djakovica. The houses are right by the road. Especially this part here, right next to the asphalt road. My commander of combat group 1 stated that in the lower part of the village here, or close to the road, there weren't any people there. There weren't any operations. The operations ⁴¹⁷⁶⁰ started only in the upper part of the village, on the outskirts towards the vineyards. That's a couple of hundred metres away from the asphalt road where the terrorists took up their positions. But the main operations during the course of the day were when a large group from these vineyards -- and that's what this commander of mine refers to in his statement, when from these vineyards, probably along this brook of Popluge they came to the village of Pirane when the army had practically passed the village moving in this direction.

Later on in this village there was fighting around the mosque, because my column for supplies was attacked here on the road. That's a terrorist group, and I think that it had some 20 or 30 men, and they wanted to move from here to Drim and to the Albanian border. From the area of the village of Pirane they wanted to move along the Drim and to the Albanian border. That's when there was fighting around the mosque. The mosque was used then in such a way. The forces that were here could not deal with this terrorist group. They had to call in the reserve force. It was only then that it was crushed. And another group went along this brook and got to Medvece and the vineyard. Yes?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic was directing you specifically to the allegations in the indictment since these are important to his case. The three villages referred to as having been shelled on the 25th of March by forces of the FRY and Serbia, the first is Pirane. Was Pirane shelled by forces of the FRY and Serbia?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pirane was not shelled, but later there was fire that was opened at some firing points. It was said that ⁴¹⁷⁶¹ many civilians were killed. What I assert is, in accordance with the report of my commanders, not a single killed civilian was found in the village of Pirane.

I don't know, when it says "many," what it actually means.

JUDGE ROBINSON: So there was fighting in Pirane then.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: How did the fighting start?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already told you. In the upper part of the village, in the part of the village that is close to the asphalt road. There weren't any terrorist forces there. The civilian population fled -- had fled earlier on. When the army arrived there, there weren't any civilians in that part of the village. In the part of the village where the last houses are, where the vineyards start, where these slopes are, there were trenches that were dug, and shelters, and there was fighting going on for that area. Later on during the course of the day, there was fighting when a particular group to go through Pirane to the Albanian border, when my column for supplies was attacked that was there on the road. So twice during the course of that day, the 25th.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There's also the allegation that the FRY and Serbian forces burned houses of Kosovo Albanians, that is in Pirane.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some houses were hit by immediate fire, but that was when those houses were being used as firing points.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please, General, answer the question directly. Did anybody torch Kosovo Albanian houses? The question is not whether you hit a firing ⁴¹⁷⁶² point or not. That is not in dispute. The allegation here is that our soldiers torched Kosovo Albanian houses in those villages.

A. That is absolutely not true, because that is prohibited in the strictest way.

Q. Never mind that. Never mind what is prohibited or not. Did they torch houses?

A. Absolutely not. The soldiers did not torch houses.

Q. Thank you. I want an absolutely clear answer. We have dealt with Landovica.

A. Yes.

Q. You have explained that those soldiers went to the village, to that shop. I don't think that anybody would call that an attack if four soldiers went down to the shop.

Then there is an allocation of shelling of Donje Retimlje and Randubrava. You showed us the map and you explained the positions. Were these villages shelled?

A. The villages were not shelled. Let us deal with the concept of shelling. Before Randubrava village and before Retimlje village, there were third-degree trenches, that is complete protection, plus there were minefields. That area was targeted, not the village itself.

Q. You targeted KLA positions?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any aims targeting apart from KLA firing positions?

A. No.

Q. Thank you, General. Let us clarify the rest of what is written in ⁴¹⁷⁶³ this paragraph related to Prizren where your own command was located. "From the 28th of March, 1999, in the city of Prizren, forces of the FRY and Serbia went from house to house, ordering Kosovo Albanian residents to leave. They were forced to join convoys of vehicles and persons travelling on foot to the Albanian border. En route, members of the forces of the FRY and Serbia beat and killed Kosovo Albanian men, separated Kosovo Albanian women from the convoy and sexually assaulted the women. At the border, all personal documents were taken away by forces of the FRY and Serbia."

Now, you have heard all these allegations that you went from house to house in the city of Prizren, the old town where your command was, that you forced them to go to the Albanian border and that en route you beat and killed them, that you separated women to rape them, I suppose, along the road. Please, General, can you tell us something about these allegations?

A. All I can tell you is that these accusations are monstrous and that none of them are true. My command was located in Prizren. By this time, it was no longer in the barracks because the barracks had been bombed several times. So my command was located in the town of Prizren.

Q. The very same town where Albanians are expelled, beaten, and killed?

A. My command was in the middle of this population made up of Albanians and Turks.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Was there any other FRY and Serbian force or group in the area apart from yours? ⁴¹⁷⁶⁴

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this place there were only my forces and the local MUP, the Ministry of the Interior. No other groups, no other forces. And there were civilian defence units and civilian protection units, but they were mobilised later. So my command was in the town of Prizren. Prizren is the second or third biggest town in Kosovo and Metohija.

Concerning what is said here about the destruction of houses, in total about ten houses were destroyed, and the Ministry of the Interior investigated each of these houses. More than a dozen houses, on the other hand, were destroyed by NATO bombing.

When I was passing through Prizren, it was absolutely intact, and there is video footage showing that Prizren had a large concentration of population not only from Prizren itself but also from surrounding villages. The residents of those villages spent the worst days of the war in the town.

Now, looking at this road, from Prizren to the Albanian border there are 14 kilometres. This entire road up to Prizren was the area of combat deployment, combat disposition of my unit. So if anybody were to kill civilians along that axis -- so from Prizren to the border, that's 14 kilometres. You have already seen from the previous maps that my battalions were deployed here. All that was happening here certainly was seen by one of my commanding officers. There were cases, maybe about ten, involving soldiers and columns of refugees that didn't -- were not actually moving along. They were standing on the road for several days because of a delay that occurred when Albania stopped admitting them. ⁴¹⁷⁶⁵ Until that time, there was no registration of the refugees, but when the registration started, that caused the delay, and they stood on the road for several days.

So those cases I was speaking about, some soldiers approached the column and took some money from the refugees. Those soldiers were arrested and court-martialed.

As for rapes, that is blatantly untrue. In the town of Prizren, there was one case of rape perpetrated by a soldier of mine from the Djakovica garrison. He was arrested and court-martialed. And there was another rape in the area of Djakovica, Crmljani village. Those civilians reported that to the police, the police reported it to the army, and since my military police unit has authority over that territory, they found the two women who were victims, and despite the fact that it all happened in the middle of a war with constant bombing, all the measures envisaged by the law were taken and the perpetrators were taken to Pristina to be court-martialed.

So allegations of abuse in proximity of the road, and rapes, it simply makes me shudder. This fabrication.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you, General. We have gone through this. That was the location of your command. You were there together with your troops. You described in detail even the incidents that were later prosecuted. Now, just one question about Pirane village. Witness Rahim Latifi from Prizren testified here earlier. That's on page 3631 of the transcript. I will quote -- ⁴¹⁷⁶⁶

MR. NICE: Date, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The date, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I didn't note down the date of this testimony, but it can be established easily.

JUDGE KWON: 22nd of April.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So Rahim Latifi from Prizren testified that on the 25th of March, 1999, in Pirane, municipality of Prizren, the Pirane village surrendered to the Serbian police and Serbian army, whereupon Serbian forces torched houses in the village while the civilian population fled to Mamusa and Srbica. You did explain that the civilians fled to Mamusa and Srbica. Then he says that the village had surrendered to you but you torched it. Let me read what else he said. That's on page 3633. "[In English] And by 4.00 of the next day, the 25th of March, 1999, his village was surrounded by the army and MUP units, by tanks, various military vehicles, and lot of personnel."

[Interpretation] As you see, what he says here is almost identical to the allegations in the indictment and he says: "At 8.00 in the morning [In English] the first house in Pirane was set on fire, and at approximately the same time, the Serbs started shelling the village." [Interpretation] So the first house was torched, and he says also that at the same time Serbs started shelling the village. Now, please, General, just in relation to this witness and these claims, just a few words although we have already explained the whole ⁴¹⁷⁶⁷ situation in detail.

A. So a witness from Prizren is explaining what happened in Pirane.

Q. Well, he could have happened to be there. Is any of this true?

A. Well, look at this: He says the village had surrendered [as interpreted]. If the civilian population had been in the village, how would have surrendered to us? If they had placed themselves under the protection of the army, they would have probably been removed for the duration of the operations and then returned. But how come they first surrendered to us and then they left for Srbica and Mamusa? Srbica, by the way, is in a completely different direction from Pirane towards --

JUDGE KWON: There seems to be a misinterpretation. The question was put as the Pirane village surrendered to the Serbian police, but the actual transcript says his village was surrounded by the army and MUP units, not surrendered. I'm reading from the transcript. It's electronic page 3625, line 14.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it does say his village was surrounded by the army and MUP units.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was quoting: "[In English] By 4.00 of the next day, 25th of March, his village was surrounded by the army and MUP units, by tanks, various military vehicles, and a lot of personnel.

"At 8.00 in the morning, the first house in Pirane was set on fire, and at approximately the same time, the Serbs started shelling the village."

JUDGE KWON: That's correct, but which was interpreted as far as ⁴¹⁷⁶⁸ this transcript shows, it was interpreted as "surrendered." So there may be confusion on the part of the witness. So could you answer again, General Delic.

Q. So the village was surrounded, what you just heard. I quoted it again.

When you torched the first house, you shelled the village simultaneously. And then it says that the village was burnt down to the ground. "[In English] Razed to the ground."

A. The term to surround, in our military terminology, when you surround something, that means that is it completely encircled from all sides.

Q. You have explained this. But this is witness testimony. The witness says that the village was surrounded and then burned down to the ground, to the ground.

A. First of all, it's not true that it was surrounded. Second, it's not true that it was burned. That village still exists. It is still standing in the same place.

In the course of the day, there were operations twice in the upper part of the village. So it's not true that it was surrounded and it's not true that it was burned down.

Even later on, up to June, there were ambushes set for either army or police forces in that village, all the way up to June.

Q. Very well. By the way, earlier when you were answering a question about Prizren, which was intact except for about a hundred houses that were bombed by NATO, and Prizren is a large town, it was not destroyed by ⁴¹⁷⁶⁹ the time you left it. And when did you leave?

A. 14th of June.

Q. That means after the end of the war.

A. Yes. That's when Prizren started to be destroyed, especially the old town.

Q. When was that? When you left.

A. It started already on the 14th, around that date. The peak was the 17th March, the year before last.

Q. General, I will now read to you part of the transcript of Witness K32. He testified on the 17th of June, 2001, and the 22nd of June, 2002, or, rather, from the 17th to the 22nd June. That is what I have noted down. I'm going to quote this to you because this witness mentions you directly. That's Witness K32. That's a protected witness so I cannot read out his name but that was how he was identified. He also mentions Jeskovo, and you've explained Jeskovo to us very clearly and properly. This is what he says. It's on page 8232: "[In English] Did something happen with respect to Jeskovo?" "Yes. In the morning, we were on the alert and we were taken to a village towards Dragash. They did not tell us where we were going. I just know that we surrounded a village. And there were 1.000 soldiers and 300 policemen there altogether, surrounding that village, and allegedly there were terrorists in that village."

[Interpretation] Now the question: "[In English] Did you see Delic present during that particular operation? ^{41770 BLANK PAGE 41771} "Yes, he was present.

"Can you tell us where you were in relation to him and what, if anything, you heard or saw that relates to the matter now before the Court?

"I saw Delic as we were entering the village itself. I saw him. He was near me. I think he was about 20 or 30 metres away from me. As we were entering the village, we said that we should not let a single person remain alive."

[Interpretation] Then there's an intervention by Mr. May. He says: "That's not very clear. Can you clarify?"

Mr. Ryneveld wishes to clarify and asks: "[In English] Did you see Delic -- I'm sorry. Who was -- were you near your particular combat unit commander at any point?" "At one moment towards the end of the operation, I was near my very own commander, the commander of my company, who was listening to his orders.

"How did he get these orders transmitted? Did he have a radio with him?

"Yes. He had a radio transmitter with him." [Interpretation] Then he goes on to explain that everyone, every commander of the company had a transmitter.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Time for a question now, Mr. Milosevic. The witness now has the substance of the matter.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So this witness, too, speaks about Jeskovo, and you explained to ⁴¹⁷⁷² us -- you've already explained the operation to us, the casualties and so on. The witness explained that allegedly you said that the terrorists were there and that he had heard you say nobody must be left alive. Now, you've heard what the witness claims.

A. May I use the map to explain this? I think it's important.

Q. Yes, General. Please go ahead. You can place whichever map you like on the easel.

A. This was Witness K32, was it?

Q. Yes.

A. And the other one last time, what was that?

Q. K41.

A. Right, K41. He was in the logistics company, supplies company, and this K32 witness says allegedly terrorists.

Q. Now, you explained Jeskovo operation to us and in your answers you even quoted the verification mission as well as their own commander, the KLA commander who said that their special unit was killed there.

A. Those two witnesses the K -- the two Ks, cover each other with respect to the crimes that they engaged in later on. Both of them. I know both of these witnesses, but that's not important now. Anyway, K32 came to this Tribunal to confirm what K41 said. That was the only reason he came to testify, because at one time after he had committed a crime, he took refuge in the other man's house, and he was a protected witness. He didn't dare come to this Court because there was a warrant for his arrest put out. And he wanted to use this Court to be protected from the crime that he had committed. ⁴¹⁷⁷³ So here on this map, here we can see -- this is Jeskovo. This unit where K32 was in, as well as K41, it moved along this axis, in this direction. The unit didn't enter Jeskovo because in Jeskovo it was the police units which entered, coming from this side here, from the direction of the village of Ljubicevo, and this area here, the part of the army which I was with. So we went down the village of Jeskovo directly, and the witness could see me somewhere around here only in the village at the entrance to the village of Hoca Zagradska, and he could see me -- or, rather, any soldier could see me, each and every soldier could see me because I stood there waiting for all the units to assemble and for them all to move along this route to Prizren. And I stayed there -- I was one of the last to stay there. So he could possibly have seen me late in the evening when the units were gathering together and preparing to depart for Prizren.

His unit didn't take any part in the fighting at all. It was these units, the police units and this one unit that was here, and part of the unit which came from Leskovac, the village of Leskovac, which was in this area here. Those were the only units which clashed with the terrorists.

Q. All right. Fine, General. Now, who were the people who fell casualty in Jeskovo, who were killed in Jeskovo?

A. If you want me to, I can take out a list or, rather, take out something that the OSCE mission wrote about it and what the commander wrote about it, the commander of this battalion, the 125th Brigade Battalion. ⁴¹⁷⁷⁴

Q. You mean the KLA commander?

A. Yes, that's what I mean.

Q. And what the OSCE mission wrote?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, General. Now, since you have two witnesses here, we're dealing with two witnesses here who claim what they claim, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you were to read out both those things, both those documents to us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's well past time for the break. We'll have to hear from the general when we return. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because of the answer, Mr. Robinson, to save time, can I just read out the latter portion? There are ten more lines from the transcript of K32 witness transcript.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it is -- unless there is a particular point, we are about ten minutes after the --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.

JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the time for the break.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem, fine.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated].

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue. ⁴¹⁷⁷⁵

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, before you go on, to save time I'm going to read out the rest of the transcript that I wanted to quote for you to be able to answer taking all this together. And it is page 8234. The question that is being asked the witness is this:

"[In English] Did you hear the order? "Yes, I heard that order.

"Who gave it? "Who gave it?

"Bozidar Delic. "What happened next?

"When the tank fired a shell from the neighbouring village, then it exploded in this village. And then our commanders ordered us to fire at the village. And that was a pleasure for them. "Did they follow his order?

"Yes. They followed every order. That one too. ... We were shooting for about half an hour, I think. ... He ordered to stop firing." [Interpretation] Then on the next page, and I'll skip over a portion, it says:

"After the firing took place, sir, did you hear Delic give a further order?

"[In English] He said, after one hour, that we should move towards the village, that we should go down towards the village. As we were going down, somebody started firing again, and we continued to shoot again. It was brief, for about five or ten minutes. Everybody was shooting. ⁴¹⁷⁷⁶ "The shooting stopped and no one could be heard shooting, and we started moving towards the village. When we entered the village, that's when I got close to Bozidar Delic, and I personally heard him say that when we entered the village, that we should make an effort not to let anyone remain alive, anyone we find in the village. "Then when entering the village, the police captured an Albanian who was getting out of the house, and he was shouting, 'I surrender. I surrender.' But he had no time to surrender. They shot him in the ears and they killed him immediately. First a soldier shot who was near the policeman, but the policeman shouted at the soldier, 'Why didn't you let me shoot at him at that moment?' I saw that very well. The policeman took out a knife and cut off his ears, and that -- that is where the operation practically ended."

[Interpretation] Then it goes on to say: "Then we received orders to get ready to go to the barracks. I saw many dead bodies in the village; seven to be exact. [In English] I saw seven, but there were more.

"When we returned to the barracks, the next day I heard there were about 30 persons killed. Allegedly they were terrorists. I saw civilians. Nobody wore a uniform. None of them did. And the next day, the police gathered these dead bodies."

[Interpretation] So there we have the description provided by this witness K32. I read it out to you, all the essential points. Now, General, as briefly as possible, please respond to what this man said? ⁴¹⁷⁷⁷

A. Let me say that the witness from start to finish is speaking nonsense. He's talking nonsense. Apart from the fact that he was in the region, nothing else is correct. He belonged to the supplies battalion, the Logistics Battalion, which is not a combat unit, and with my whole brigade and leading them to battle it was a battalion in the rear, and that would be ludicrous, for starters.

Now, I'd like to read out what it says here or, rather, the OSCE centre in Prizren, what it wrote with respect to this action and what the commander of the 2nd Battalion of the 125th Brigade wrote, that is to say the KLA one, Safir [phoen] Berisha, in his book "The Road To Freedom." "The Regional Centre of the OSCE the KVM in Prizren commented on the situation by saying that the KLA infiltrated into Jeskovo a village that had been left empty a week before that. The population of Hoca Zagradska informed the OSCE about their concern and the KLA withdrew. The OSCE or the KVM informed the KLA that the local inhabitants and the security forces considered their presence in the area provocation. Along with that, the OSCE of the KVM in Prizren noted that the Serb forces during this operation limited their fighting to Jeskovo south of Prizren. The other villages were occupied but were not damaged. The police on the 12th of March called upon OSCE teams of the KVM to visit Jeskovo village which was the centre of the police operation on the 11th of March. The verifiers were able to see the bodies of seven armed persons wearing black KLA uniforms. According to the police reports, all of them were killed from firearms during the security operation. The teams were not able to establish whether the members of the KLA were killed in the places where ⁴¹⁷⁷⁸ they lay. The verifiers were also shown a mortar with ammunition ready for use and other ammunition in boxes. It was established that from -- that the mortars had been fired from.

"During this investigation, the OSCE verifiers noted that they saw 20 to 25 members they say of special police combat units. That's what they call them, but they were in fact members of the PJP. And the commander of this 2nd other battalion --"

JUDGE ROBINSON: I think rather than read out what others said, you have here specific allegations made by a Prosecution witness in relation to you. The Prosecution said that, among other things, you said your troops were not to let anybody remain alive in the village. One person was shot, his ears were cut off. Those are the allegations that you should answer. I think that's what Mr. Milosevic wants to hear from you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that what this witness said is just absurd and nonsense and that it has nothing to do with the actual state of affairs.

Now, what I read out is what other people said about the situation, because on the previous day we went through my report about this specific operation, and now I have read out what the local centre of the OSCE noted, and they were also present throughout the time. Now, if you take a look at this map here, this is where I was --

JUDGE ROBINSON: What were you reading from, what document?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was reading from a book, "As Seen, As Told," from the Fund for Humanitarian Right -- Law. Page 341. ⁴¹⁷⁷⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if I might be allowed to read out just five lines from this book, by this commander, "The Road to Freedom."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Go ahead, General.

A. It is page 99 of the book "Put Sloboda," "The Road to Freedom," written by Safir Berisha.

MR. NICE: Do we have that --

JUDGE KWON: Do we have that document in the exhibits?

MR. NICE: I'm not sure and I'm not sure whether --

JUDGE KWON: The Road to Freedom.

MR. NICE: It sounds familiar. I'm not sure if we have it as an exhibit. No doubt inquiries can be made. If the witness is going to read a section from the book we should have it in translation. If he's only going to read from a section of the book and it isn't an exhibit we should have access to its totality at some stage, preferably sooner rather than later.

JUDGE KWON: Copies should be handed over to the Bench as well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Read the particular section and then copies can be made, can be placed -- have you read the five lines?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, read the five lines.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the commander saying this who on the 14th of March came from Albania. "On the 15th of March I heard a ⁴¹⁷⁸⁰ lot of touching information. I learnt about the heroic death of many comrades, heroes who had proved themselves earlier on. They were real heroes. Jefir Beskic [phoen], Hajdra Sala [phoen]." He goes on to list them: "Feri Susurri [phoen], Tahir Gashi, Skender Latifi, Umerdin Cengaj [phoen], Ajadinje Zahiri [phoen] and Hami [phoen] Thaci. They are soldiers belonging to the special unit of the 125th Brigade of the Operative Zone of Pastrik. It was a great loss indeed because the fighting was head to head at a distance of 15 to 20 metres." That's what I wanted to read out.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the OSCE document that is quoted in the book that you refer to, and in this document written by their commander, there is reference to members of the special units of the KLA.

A. Yes.

Q. And who were they fighting at hand to hand? They were the ones that your soldiers were fighting; right?

A. Yes.

Q. He says that he did not see anyone in uniform, that they were civilians.

A. The village of Jeskovo, we had that information, was totally abandoned by the civilian population. As a matter of fact, I think that the civilian population was sent away from that village so that a terrorist base could be established there.

MR. NICE: I wonder if the witness could place on the overhead ⁴¹⁷⁸¹ projector the passage from As Seen, As Told that he says is page 341, because I can't find it myself at the moment and it will be too late by the time we get to cross-examination to pursue the point.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be done.

MR. NICE: The Court is of course in possession of this document in English. If Mr. Prendergast could run back on the document to the next heading. That's probably the easiest way in which we could find the parallel English page numbering. Zur/Vrbnica, so if we can find that in the English. It appears to be on page 340.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, tell me, this activity of Mr. Nice's, does that not belong to his cross-examination? I don't know why he's interrupting my examination-in-chief now instead of cross-examining about this. What he is supposed to do is cross-examination.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Not really. It assists the Bench as well, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. NICE: Indeed, if the accused was presenting his evidence properly he would have attended to the requirements of those who are trying to follow the evidence.

I think that what he was reading from can indeed be found on page 340 in the English.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's it, yes. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. If we've cleared that up ^{41782 BLANK PAGE 41783} that it can be found in English, I mean the witness has already read it out, so let's not dwell on it any longer.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You can proceed now, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So let us conclude with regard to this, General. Was there a single civilian there when you intervened in Jeskovo?

A. In the village of Jeskovo there was not a single civilian.

Q. Was there a unit of the KLA there that was shooting at you?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there anything correct in what K41 and K32 said?

A. The only thing that is correct is that they were within their unit and that in -- on that day they were in that area. They themselves were not in that village. When the unit was gathering, they were in Hoca Zagradska, and that's where they managed to see me. The distance from me to them is about three kilometres.

Q. Well, he claims that he was right next to you, 20 metres away.

A. Well, I'm telling you. Three kilometres is the distance from the place where that unit was to the place where I was.

Q. And that unit is their quartermaster's unit, right?

A. Yes, a quartermaster's unit that did not have any combat tasks but they were only supposed to block the road so that the terrorists could not go to Zur.

JUDGE ROBINSON: General, can you offer any explanation as to why K32 should have come to this Court and present what you have said is a pack of lies? ⁴¹⁷⁸⁴

MR. NICE: Your Honour, before he does, the Court will of course be sensitive to the fact that there have been some identifying information provided by the witness. If he's going to go any further, although I'm reluctant to ask it, it would be preferable in closed session. As indicated, I much prefer it to be in open session and it may be the witness can be alerted to the need to be able to separate his answers out if any part of his answer would give identification.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll remain in open session, but, General, this is a protected witness, and you're an intelligent person, so be sensitive to that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course. Of course I'm not going to disclose any information that -- well, anyway, as for the motives of this witness, this witness was in the same unit like Witness K41. This witness perpetrated a grave crime, and he was on the run after the commission of that crime. He established contact with K41, and he hid at his place for a few months. So he was out of reach as far as the police were concerned. That is why he could not come to this Court, because the police would arrest him since did he not have a passport. That is why he testified via videolink.

Actually, he testified precisely to confirm the allegations made by Witness K41, who protected him at the time from police prosecution due to the crime he had committed. He was probably given a promise that if he testified, he would perhaps be removed from the country and that he would ⁴¹⁷⁸⁵ get away from the arm of justice.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, I didn't follow when he mentioned videolink. Can you help us?

MR. NICE: Not at the moment. It's not my immediate recollection. But -- it's not our immediate recollection. We can easily check on the transcript. I just --

JUDGE KWON: I don't think so.

MR. NICE: I think that's in error. But it may be something that I'll pursue in cross-examination.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Delic, did you refer to K41 or K32 when you said that he lost -- he didn't have a passport and who committed this great crime?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Witness K41. That's the one who testified first, as far as I know, who testified here first. He was present. The second witness, I think that's K32, was not present. Not to say anything else about them now.

MR. KAY: K41 was videolink, 5th of September. I think it was 5th of September. 5th of September, 2002, with facial distortion, pseudonym.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, you've already mentioned that you were in Prizren. Where were you in town itself? You actually explained all of that. But what I'd like to quote here is another witness, another witness of Mr. Nice's. ⁴¹⁷⁸⁶ This is witness Xhafer Beqiraj, from Prizren, who, in his testimony on the 19th of April, 2002, transcript page 3510, said that two policemen in regular police uniforms with automatic weapons barged into his house and gave them five minutes to leave the house or otherwise they would be killed. They were told that they should go to Albania, and they were ordered to go along the road to Albania.

So there is repetition in this testimony, too, that somebody was expelling Albanians from their houses in Prizren, forcing them to go to Albania. He said that they came to see him, gave him five minutes. On this page 3510, he says that: "[In English] Of particular note is these people were being escorted by mixed forces of police, paramilitary, including regular VJ soldiers, and they were mobile in military and police vehicles. Later, he describes leaving Prizren when he indicated that the police were shooting their automatic weapons, trying to frighten the residents, and describes them at 5.00 on a particular day there was a knock on the door and police wearing regular uniform, and at the time there were about 50 people in his house," et cetera, et cetera, [Interpretation] what I've already mentioned to you. "[In English] He describes the insults and the fact that they were instructed to go to Albania."

[Interpretation] You were there at the time. You spoke about it a few moments ago. What can you say about the statement made by this witness, who is not a protected witness? Xhafer Beqiraj is his name.

A. My command post was at several different places in Prizren during the war, but at the beginning of the war it was here, near Sinan Pasha's ⁴¹⁷⁸⁷ mosque. Later on it moved on. Except for the days when there was combat and when I was absent, I could observe such things taking place. I do not preclude the possibility that some individual could have said something to an Albanian with whom he had quarreled or whatever, but that there was something organised by the police, and the army is referred to here as well, that the Albanian population was expelled and escorted to the border, I cannot except that and that's not true. My soldiers, and I've already said that, were near the place called Zur, all the way up to the border, but they were not there in order to escort Albanians. They could be seen around here depending on their deployment, but they were in this area precisely for the purpose of preventing the civilian population of getting into minefields that were by the road in this area, up to the village of Zur. The army was there only to protect the civilian population.

Q. General, had something like that happened, people breaking into houses, you say that you and your command were in the heart of town, that somebody was barging into Albanian houses and expelling them. Would you have to know about that?

A. I would have to know about that. Secondly, I don't know which part of down that Albanian lived in, but police station is here, on the outskirts of Prizren, when you leave Prizren towards Albania. So any citizen could report that kind of problem.

For example, various reports -- problems were reported, problems of the kind that do happen in towns, and the police would react. And then if the army was doing something, it could be reported either to the army ⁴¹⁷⁸⁸ or to the police.

Q. All right, General. Let's go back to your documents, the ones that you gave here.

We have already dealt with the map of Randubrava in tab 424 and your statement in 425.

In relation to this statement of yours in tab 425, have you got anything to add?

A. No. That's it. We've already dealt with it, and it has to do with Randubrava.

Q. All right. In 426, you have the statement of Captain Milovan Zivkovic, who also says: "We never opened fire if we had information that the civilian population was in a village." He says what you said too.

A. With his platoon, he was moving in the direction of Randubrava.

Q. So his testimony comes from the actual site.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move on to Suva Reka. First of all, please describe in the briefest possible terms this map which is in document 427, and that has to do with Suva Reka on the 25th of March, as far as I can see on the map, the date on the map itself.

A. This map pertains to the 25th of March, 1999. It depicts several elements. Combat group 5, on the 25th, around 3.00 or ten past three left the barracks. From -- they left from the area where the barracks were. Here in Toplicane they were there at 3.40. Then around 4.10 it was at the entrance to Suva Reka. At 4.40 it passed through Suva Reka and here in front of the village of Rastane it had combat deployment vis-a-vis the ⁴¹⁷⁸⁹ village of Studencani at 600 hours, and at 7.00 the combat operation started. That is what can be seen on this map.

Q. General, you described how units moved in that area and very briefly what they did. Now, before I put further questions to you, I'm going to quote what it says in the indictment, in 63(d) in relation to Suva Reka. It says here -- please listen carefully to see what this is all about. It says there that on the morning of the 25th of March 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the town of Suva Reka. First of all tell me, General, was Suva Reka under our control? Was there our police station there? Were our authorities there?

A. Yes, in Suva Reka there weren't any members of the army because it's not an army location, but there was the police force and there were police checkpoints at the entrance and the exit.

Q. All right. Tell me, then, what would the point be for you to surround a town that is under our control?

A. Well, it's simply incorrect. That can be seen from this map.

Q. So this first statement that you surrounded Suva Reka is incorrect.

A. Totally.

Q. Then it says: "During following days, police officers went from house to house, threatening, assaulting and killing Kosovo Albanian residents, and removing many of the people from their homes at gunpoint." That's what's written here. You've explained where you were on the 25th of March. We see your units on the map here. Your units went through Suva Reka; is that right? ⁴¹⁷⁹⁰

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any truth in what they say here?

A. There is no truth in it. Let me just add one more thing. Only my unit went through Suva Reka. On the other side of Suva Reka, in the area of Dulje, there was a combat group from the 243rd Brigade which had a task, but to the north of my unit, if I can put it that way. That is where it was carrying out combat operations. Here there are also vineyards above Suva Reka.

Q. All right. But they didn't come close to Suva Reka?

A. No, they did not.

Q. All right. Now, see what it says further on here. It says: "Many houses and shops belonging to Kosovo Albanians were set on fire and a mosque in Suva Reka was damaged. The women, children, and elderly were sent away by the police and then a number of the men were killed by the forces of the FRY and Serbia. The Kosovo Albanians were forced to flee, making their way in trucks, tractors and trailers towards the border with Albania."

So it says women, children, and elderly were sent away, and then you, the forces of the FRY and Serbia, killed a number of the men, and they were forced to flee, making their way in trucks, tractors, and trailers towards Albania. Please, is there any truth in these allegations?

A. Many terms that are military terms are used here and that simply do not hold water in this context.

Q. I'm only interested in facts. Are any facts here correct, ⁴¹⁷⁹¹ regardless of the terminology used? You passed through Suva Reka precisely on that day, the 25th of March?

A. Actually, my combat group passed through. I passed through later.

Q. When you say "you," I mean units under your command. When did you pass through?

A. Well, I passed through when it was already the beginning of April, and it was only once. But on the 25th of April, a lieutenant colonel of mine, head of operations, combat group 5, Lieutenant Colonel Stojan Konjikovac passed through.

In paragraph 63(e), we have a description of an event of the 31st of March, where it says that: "About 200 Kosovo Albanians were displaced from villages in the Suva Reka municipality gathered near Belanica. The following day forces of the FRY and Serbia shelled Belanica, forcing the displaced persons to flee toward the Albanian border." Correction of the number 80.000 Kosovo Albanians were displaced from villages. So it says that on the 31st of March, you displaced these people who had gathered near Belanica.

A. Belanica is towards the north-west, somewhere in that area. There did occur some combat operations, but the entire municipality of Suva Reka does not have a population of 80.000. So I think this is an incorrect number. There's no way 80.000 people could have gathered in a place like that.

Second, to shell such a large group of citizens would have resulted in hundreds if not thousands of dead.

Q. Do you have any information about operations targeting civilians ⁴¹⁷⁹² in that area?

A. No. There were no forces of mine in the area of Belanica. At that time my forces were closer to Malisevo. And the inhabitants of that area, a part of them went to Suva Reka and continued on to Prizren, whereas another part passed by my units along the road from Orahovac to Prizren.

Q. It goes on to say in 66(d) that: "On or about the 26th of March, 1999, in the morning hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the vicinity of the Berisha family compound in the town of Suva Reka. Tanks were positioned close to, and pointing in the direction of, the houses. The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered the occupants out of one of the houses. Men were separated from women and children and six members of the family were killed. The remaining family members were herded towards a coffee shop by forces of the FRY and Serbia. Those family members were herded, along with three extended Berisha family groups, into the coffee shop. Forces of the FRY and Serbia then walked into the coffee shop and opened fire on the persons inside. Explosives were also thrown into the shop. At least 44 civilians were killed and others were seriously wounded during this action." And so on.

Now, tell me, please -- let me just see what it says here below. We have also heard testimony from a witness who is a member of that family, Shyhrete Berisha, who said that the police barged into the house of Vesel Berisha, fired inside, after which a fire started. One of them was killed. Nexhat Berisha was killed and the rest fled towards the coffee shop where other Berisha family were killed. Then the police came ⁴¹⁷⁹³ after the killing of some civilians. When they entered the cafe, the police started firing, and then threw hand grenades, and then they were later thrown into a truck. That's transcript page 7900, Agron Berisha, 25th of March, 2002, transcript 975 and 984.

Let me not quote all this in detail. I gave you certain portions of the testimony.

Now, on page 7901, it says: "On the morning of the 26th of March, 1999 -" very precisely - "two tanks were situated outside Vesel's house [In English] with their gun barrels pointing towards it." [Interpretation] This is very much in contradiction to what you said or, rather, they are in contradiction to what we see on the map. The tanks were not in Suva Reka on the 26th, as far as I can see from the map, but let us --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, ask a question now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, was there any other military unit in Suva Reka on the 25th and the 26th?

A. There is no army location in Suva Reka at all.

Q. Did any other army unit pass through Suva Reka?

A. Only my unit was able to pass through Suva Reka, and that is shown here. That unit here overlooking Suva Reka does have tanks, but they were directing their actions on the east-west direction, and Suva Reka was simply not in their area. Therefore, there were no tanks that could have been in Suva Reka. They would have to have been my tanks. There were three tanks here, and on the 25th they were here, where they are shown, ^{41794 BLANK PAGE 41795} and on the 26th they were a bit further up towards Studencani.

Q. Very well. Now, apart from this map of Suva Reka, you also have a statement.

A. Yes.

Q. Because you gave separate statements concerning all these allegations, there is a statement of yours concerning the allegations made in this book of the Humanitarian Law Foundation. You say that you first read about it in this book by the Humanitarian Law Fund, and you say further on: "I personally cannot imagine such things happening, especially in an organised way."

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what would you say to these claims made about Suva Reka?

A. May I ask for this to be in closed session?

Q. That depends on Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can only support --

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴¹⁷⁹⁶ Pages 41796-41803 redacted. Private session.

⁴¹⁸⁰⁴

(redacted)

(redacted)

[Open session]

JUDGE ROBINSON: So we are now in public session. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, on the basis of the information that you had at your disposal, this last segment that we discussed, would that emerge from it all, the killing that we spoke? Would that be based on personal settling of accounts?

A. To the best of my knowledge, yes, that would be right.

Q. Now, as far as the other events are concerned, the ones that I quoted and set out which relate to the burning of houses in Suva Reka, the expulsion of the Albanian civilians from Suva Reka who were making their way in tractors, trucks, and trailers towards the border, 80.000 Kosovo Albanians who were displaced from villages in the Suva Reka municipality and the area of Belanica, the shelling of the area by our forces, and so on and so forth, can you confirm any of that, General? Do you consider that any pieces of information there are correct?

A. As far as the shelling is concerned, I said a moment ago quite certainly that there can be no mention of that at all because a large number of civilians would have been killed had that happened, and to the best of my knowledge and information in the Belanica region there were no casualties, no victims among the civilian population at all. ⁴¹⁸⁰⁵ Now, the fact is that a number of people from Suva Reka did leave. They left for Albania. They moved out. But I don't know what percentage of people that was, just as people left from all other towns and settlements, inhabited areas. So I can't give you any percentages or figures there. I can tell you nothing more about that.

Q. Yes, but I'm just interested in one particular point here and that is this: I'm not talking about how many people moved out. I'm not questioning the reasons for which people moved out during the war, when the war was on, but what I'm interested in is this: The forces of the FRY and Serbia, as it is claimed here and as they are called here, referred to here, did they operate towards civilians who -- did they open fire or did they make these people move out? Was it possible for an event of this kind to be -- to happen, the shelling of civilians? Would that be at all possible? Is that possible? Could that have had happened?

A. No, not at all. And when the FRY forces are mentioned, this includes the army.

Q. It means the army exclusively when it says Serbia?

A. Well, when it comes to the army, that is impossible because it was my army and my men and the other unit.

Q. Very well. I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that witness Shefqet Zogaj here said that on the 1st of April, 1999, and he testified on the 24th of April, 2002, and that is to be found in the transcript on page 3661, that statement of his, Shefqet Zogaj therefore stated that on the 1st of April our forces entered Belanica, and he says he saw houses being burnt and looted, and he says he saw a large number of ^{41806 BLANK PAGE 41807} people being killed, and that young men and women were shut up in the schoolhouse and that the peasants and villagers then left the village in a convoy secured by Serb policemen. They went in two directions, one towards Malisevo and the other route was towards Suva Reka. Now, is that true and what do you know about that 1st of April day in general, 1st of April, 1999? Now, this is somewhat contradictory, the 80.000 persons, and then they say some people were shut up and held in the schoolhouse. But let's leave that aside for the moment, what I quoted from these indictments of Mr. Nice's. Let's just dwell on this particular witness and his testimony, and he's referring to the 1st of April, the entry into Belanica, the burning and looting of houses. They said they shut up the locals in the schoolhouse building, and then he talks about a convoy secured by Serb policemen moving in the direction of Malisevo and Suva Reka.

A. Well, this witness, then, is certainly contradictory. On the 1st of April I myself was in the region of Pagarusa, and the region of Pagarusa is this area here, several kilometres, let's say about five or six kilometres, away from Belanica. I personally was not able to see Belanica myself, but these allegations, these claims that a lot of people were killed there or, rather, a lot of civilians, I would certainly have learnt about that had it happened.

In the Belanica region, the 243rd Mechanised Brigade was located there.

Q. All right. Fine. Let's just try and be as precise as possible here. We're dealing with page 3661, and towards the end of that page of ⁴¹⁸⁰⁸ the transcript he says: "[In English] He describes the situation in Suva Reka from the 20th of March 1999 when the OSCE KVM mission pulled out from Kosovo.

"The streets were empty of civilian Albanians, but there was a heavy presence of Serb police and military."

[Interpretation] And you said that there was no army, there were no soldiers in Suva Reka.

A. That's right. The army was never in Suva Reka.

Q. Right. Then that means that this is not true, not correct. Then he goes on to say: "[In English] On the same day, the Serbs attacked villages in the area and people started to flee to safer places, like Belanica, in his home village, Belanica.

"He describes the situation in Suva Reka on 25th of March, including the killings and burning of houses. The witness mentioned victims and survivors from the massacre in Suva Reka by name. All the villages in the area of Suva Reka and Malisevo were attacked from March 1999 onwards. The inhabitants fled and gathered in a big field in the centre of Belanica, so that by March 31st, there were about 80.000 people there."

[Interpretation] And then he goes on to say that they were looted, that they expelled them from their homes, that 150 civilian Albanians were killed on that day.

Now, please tell us, is any of this true?

A. Let me say straight away that had 150 civilians been killed I would have known about it and I would know about it. ⁴¹⁸⁰⁹ Now, this figure of 80.000, that is a figure which almost exceeds the entire population of Suva Reka municipality, and the village of Belanica itself is in the northern stretches of the Suva Reka municipality, which means that there would not have been a single inhabitant left anywhere, either in Suva Reka or in the surrounding parts.

Q. All right. Now, does that mean that that village Belanica is in the opposite direction of Suva Reka in relation to the Albanian border?

A. Yes, it is in the opposite direction. It is much closer to Malisevo, for instance, and it is quite a long way away from Suva Reka, but as I say, in the opposite direction, in the opposite direction from the Albanian border.

Q. All right. Now, as this is in your area of responsibility, you would have to have known had there been any killings of civilians, wouldn't you, and that any KLA people were killed? You would have to have known about that; right?

A. Well, when it comes to these killings and deaths, what I knew about were the deaths in my own unit, but I also knew about deaths in other units of the army from the corps. I also knew about some other events where certain members of the MUP were killed, and although I didn't know them by name personally. So I ought to have known or would have had to have known had such a large number of people a massive number of people been killed like these 150 civilians that are mentioned. I never heard anything like that, and in my opinion this witness has just invented the figure.

Q. All right. ⁴¹⁸¹⁰

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have to take the adjournment now. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Hysni Berisha, from Suva Reka, a witness of Mr. Nice's, claims that on the 22nd of March, 1999, a Serb civilian was killed from the village of Sopina and that after that an attack began of the Serb forces in Suva Reka where ten Albanian civilians were killed from a few families. That is on page 7480 on the 7th of July, 2002. It says: "On the morning of the 26th of March, 1999 [In English] Serb forces start to shell around Suva Reka, using tanks and Pragas."

[Interpretation] That's what he says. I quoted that to you a few minutes ago. Is that correct?

A. For the umpteenth time I have to say that fire was never opened at villages, at civilians. Fire was opened at terrorists. As for the killing of a Serb in Suva Reka, I heard that in a shop a Serb had been killed, a salesperson. I don't know whether that is the case concerned, because at that time there were killings of civilians, both Albanians and Serbs.

Q. But what I quoted to you a few moments ago was that the Serb forces started on the 26th of March to shell the area around Suva Reka. "[In English]... started to shell around Suva Reka, using tanks and ⁴¹⁸¹¹ Pragas." [Interpretation] I ask you whether that's correct.

A. That is not correct. On the previous maps you saw where the operations were.

Q. All right.

A. By no means the area around Suva Reka. Only the western part of Suva Reka, and that could be seen on this map which is on the easel.

Q. All right. Let us go back to your exhibits. We have a statement here in document 429, a statement of Colonel Konjikovac. Please take a look at this statement.

A. He was commander of combat group 5 that went through Suva Reka.

Q. That's the combat group that you showed us passing through Suva Reka.

A. Yes. Yes, that's it.

Q. So he says: "We passed through Suva Reka without stopping in marching order. There was no combat or activity that we had in Suva Reka."

A. Yes. According to his statement, the situation there was as usual. Policemen were at the checkpoints at the entrance of Suva Reka, so he went through Suva Reka around 4.00, ten past four on the 25th.

Q. All right. Now we're going to move on to Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa. Please describe the map first, the one contained in document 430. What does this map represent?

Before you describe the map, I would just like to remind you or, rather, everyone who is following this here, in paragraph 66 of this indictment, under (c), there is mention of Velika and Mala Krusa. So we ⁴¹⁸¹² have a direct reference to what it says here. It says there that: "On the 25th of March, 1999, or around that date, the forces of the FRY and Serbia attacked the villages of Velika Krusa and Mala Krusa, municipality of Orahovac."

Now, please show us this map, explain, and then I'm going to put a few other questions to you.

A. Can we have this one stay here? Again, this map, the map of my decision covering this entire period. Let me just point this out. First the village of Pirane, then Mala Krusa, then Velika Krusa. These two villages are practically linked. They are right next to the asphalt road between Prizren and Djakovica.

As for this map, first I have the map of Mala Krusa here. It depicts the situation as it was on the 26th of March. Green denotes the deployment of police forces, red the deployment of the military. We see the deployment at 12.00, where they were at 12.00, and where they were at 1800 hours on that day.

The green that is depicted here means that from that date onwards, up until the 12th -- yes, the 12th of June, the MUP forces had their points here in order to ensure security along this road.

Q. All right. However, I read out 66(c) to you. It says on the 25th of March, 1999, or around that date, our forces attacked the villages of Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa.

A. I'm saying yet again this is not true. The villages were not the target of this operation. The target were the terrorist forces. The terrorist forces were in Velika Krusa and right next to Velika Krusa. You ⁴¹⁸¹³ can see the terrain here. Up to the asphalt road here it is flat land, and then there is a mild slope where the villages are, and above the villages there are slopes that lend themselves to defence, and that is why trenches were dug there.

Q. All right. General, in relation to that you made a statement that is contained in 431. Do you see that statement of yours?

A. Yes.

Q. You say: "I personally came on the night of the 25th of March, 1999 to the area of Velika Krusa towards the village of Nogavac but I did not notice anything usual."

A. Yes. I came there from here around Orahovac. I came to Nogavac or, rather, this part of Velika Krusa.

Q. You say: "My -- I had come to assist members of the PJP, 23rd special police detachment whose BOV had overturned and fallen off the bridge in the village of Nogavac."

A. Yes. That's why I came. They could not resolve the problem on their own, so I was asked to come, to get a tank of mine for pulling it out, and I was there only to give instructions as to how this should be done at this particular locality. After that I said that via Celine I went to Prizren because around 2000 hours on that day my barracks were bombed.

Q. All right. In document 432, you have the statement of Lieutenant Colonel Uros Nikolic pertaining to the same period of time and the same events.

A. Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic was commander of combat group 1, ⁴¹⁸¹⁴ which was here in the area of Pirane-Mala Krusa and which was operating towards Zojic, Medvece and Mamusa.

Q. He said that on the 25th, in the morning of the same day, went through the northern part of Mala Krusa where there were some persons of Serb ethnicity who were standing on the road, watching the army pass by, the troops go by.

A. Yes. He passed here by the wine cellar, and there is an asphalt road going around it and getting to the vineyards.

Q. All right, General. Further on in this paragraph that I quoted to you, and that is paragraph 66 where there is mention of Velika Krusa and Mala Krusa, it says that: "During the morning of the 26th of March, 1999, the forces of FRY and Serbia ordered the women and small children to leave the area and go to Albania, and then they detained and searched the men and boys and confiscated their identity documents and valuables. Subsequently, the forces of the SFRY and Serbia ordered the men and boys under threat of death to walk to an unoccupied house in Mala Krusa." Then further on it is claimed that: "The forces of FRY and Serbia forced the men and boys to enter the house. When the men and boys were assembled inside, the forces of the FRY and Serbia opened with -- fire with machine-guns on the group. After several minutes of gun fire, the forces of FRY and Serbia set fire to the house in order to burn the bodies. And then allegedly as a result of the shooting and fire, approximately 105 Kosovo Albanian men and boys died." Do you know anything about this event?

A. What you quoted to me, that is what the indictment says? ⁴¹⁸¹⁵

Q. This is a quotation from the indictment.

A. Here in this area on this road where my units are, and that is what is contained in this map, too, below the asphalt road, the forces for blockade were there all the time. The other part of my units had already moved further on. However, I'm sure that this part that was on the asphalt road would have noticed had anything been going on in view of the proximity of Mala Krusa in particular. Velika Krusa is a considerably larger village, but Mala Krusa is not that big. So if civilians were assembled and if anybody fired at them when there was no combat operation going on there anyway, when units were moving towards Retimlje around Dubrava, my commander in that area would have had to have observed that and inform me about that. There are no such reports from that commander.

Q. All right. That you have no such reports that is one thing. Is it possible for this kind of thing to happen without you having any information about it?

A. In terms of everything, in terms of the subordination in the military, that is quite simply impossible. I'm saying quite simply impossible for them not to report to me that something like that had happened.

Q. Thank you, General. Ali Hoti from Velika Krusa, Mr. Nice's witness here, stated that on the 25th of March our forces surrounded the village of Velika Krusa and that he saw tanks and Pragas in the village and that he saw that they started shelling the village. He testified on the 22nd of April, 2002. The transcript number is 3590 to 3592. "[In English] He saw tanks, APCs, and he will describe also the Pragas ⁴¹⁸¹⁶ approaching the village and the village being shelled, policemen and paramilitary looting property. His own house, as well as those in the surrounding village, were burnt and destroyed."

[Interpretation] All right. That's what he says. Does this correspond to the facts that you have in any way?

A. The truth is that he could have seen tanks, that he could have seen other vehicles that were on the road. Sometimes he could even see them in action, but they were firing at firing points, not at the village. Certainly not. And then they surrounded the village and shelled that, I mean that statement is not true at all.

Q. There is some mention of paramilitary units here. Were there any paramilitary units there?

A. That is absolutely incorrect. It was only the regular army there and the regular police.

JUDGE ROBINSON: General, when you said that they were firing at firing points, what do you mean? Who would have been firing from those points?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From those firing points fire was opened by members of the KLA. So fire was directed only at these sources of fire, at them.

JUDGE ROBINSON: How would you be able to know with any certainty that there were no paramilitary forces in the area?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how would I be able to know? I'm sure. And I know that because my military police existed, and as far as military uniforms are concerned, they knew exactly who was in that ⁴¹⁸¹⁷ territory.

As for members of the MUP, I know exactly which units were in that territory. After all, we had orders not to allow any armed groups there, or any self-appointed commanders or any units of that kind. Where I was, I never allowed that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This same witness says that on the 29th of March, 1999, Mehmed Krasniqi told him that on that day in Mala Krusa Serbian police and paramilitaries rounded up 109 men, including this Krasniqi, took them to a house, covered them with straw, poured petrol over them and set them on fire, but this Krasniqi somehow survived. It's from the same testimony of the 22nd of April by Ali Hoti from Velika Krusa. He says on page 3592: "One of them, Mehmet Krasniqi, had been burned, together with 109 men, by Serb police and paramilitary. "[In English] And 1st of April, 1999, the witness described that Nagafc was bombed by planes he believes to have been Serbian. The witness saw many corpses at various locations throughout the village." [Interpretation] So he is repeating the words of Mehmet Krasniqi.

A. Well, even if he said he had seen many corpses again he mentions Mala Krusa. Right next to Mala Krusa, in the proximity of the road, there were blocking forces from my unit positioned, and their commander was Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj Paravanja. In all his reports regarding the situation in the village we read that the situation was normal and he didn't report any problems to me. And setting this house on fire and the ^{41818 BLANK PAGE 41819} pouring of the petrol and the shooting, all that would have been heard certainly. He also mentions planes, aircraft. Our aviation was unable to fly at that time.

Q. On page 3608, he says --

MR. NICE: It's not clear to me whether the reports the witness has just referred to of his commander Lieutenant Colonel Radivoj Paravanja are included in the materials before us or not.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll make the inquiry of the general. Are those reports included in the material?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The statements are here under various tabs, and they explain the activities of his unit, the man I just mentioned.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Let me finish with the testimony of this witness who said that Nogavac had been bombed by Serb planes. You already commented on that. He says on page 3608: "[In English]... and after that, on its way back, it started bombing.

"Later on, pieces from the shells were to be found with the Cyrillic writing on them, which goes to show that these aircraft were yours and not NATO's."

[Interpretation] That's what this witness says. What can you tell us about this claim that our aircraft bombed?

A. Nogavac was indeed bombed. It's shown on this map. It was in the night of the 1st, in the night of the 1st of April. The on-site investigation of that bombing was carried out on the ⁴¹⁸²⁰ 2nd of April by the police from Prizren.

Q. Very well.

A. There is a video recording of this on-site investigation, however we only have the map here.

Q. We will get to that video recording in due course. Let me just ask you one more question. Witness Mehmet Avdyli from Velika Krusa testified on the 11th of June, 2002, transcript page 6730 to 6731. He testified that on the 25th of March, Serb forces separated men from women and about 110 men were taken prisoner and later locked up in the house of Haxhi Batusha. He stated that Serb forces opened fire at these men, then set hay on fire, just the same as the previous witness. Is this correct, General?

A. I can say the same thing to the same allegations. This is already the third witness making the same allegations. I have no information that this could be true.

Q. Very well. We will now move on to the events from Nogavac village.

JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you have no information that this could be true. Do you have any basis for saying that it is untrue?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying that I have no knowledge that something like that could have happened in that village at the time when I was there with my unit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Mr. Milosevic, go ahead.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Along this route, because this is the main road to Djakovica, I passed several times after this date. My ⁴¹⁸²¹ unit was there for three days, and the last time I was there was on the 12th of July -- June. That's the last time I passed along that road. I went to and fro several times, and I never saw anything unusual.

Q. General, let us be very precise. An event of the sort that I just quoted, could it have happened without you knowing, since your units were there at the time and it was in your area of responsibility throughout that period?

A. In view of the mechanisms that are in operation in the chain of command, and in view of all the rules of the army, I believe something like that would -- could not happen without me knowing. I would have known about it. I would have learned at least two or three days later, because if I didn't learn about it, that means that one of the links in the chain was not functioning, and I believe that is impossible.

Q. All right. Now, look at the map. We are moving on to Nogavac village. Could you explain the map that's marked Nogavac TK 50, 1st and 2nd of April. That's document 433.

A. On this map we notice that our forces are no longer in that territory except for here in Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa where the checkpoints on this road are, security checkpoints. This is a symbol for aircraft activity, and it shows that there was an airstrike on Nogavac village around 1.00, 1.00 a.m. That is the night of the 1st of April.

Q. You mean NATO airstrike?

A. Yes, NATO airstrike.

Q. Very well. In December 2002 you wrote a statement about your knowledge of purported crimes in Nogavac village. It is under tab 434. ⁴¹⁸²² What is relevant and important here? You say: "It can be observed that the army was not in this area at all after the 28th of March, 1999. I learnt on that same day, the 2nd of April, that the village had been bombed by NATO aviation."

A. I knew about the bombing, but I didn't know what the consequences were. The airstrikes happened, but not that frequently, so that the police went out on-site after every incident and recorded the entire area, the projectiles, the effects of the bombing. Later on, when there were dozens of airstrikes every day everywhere, there was no longer the practice.

Q. All right. We have seen your statement about purported crimes in Nogavac village, and now we will deal with the allegations of Mr. Nice concerning what happened there.

Paragraph 66(i) [as interpreted]: "On or about 25th of March, a large group of Kosovo Albanians went to the mountain overlooking Nogavac, fleeing attack."

What kind of attack is referred to here? What happened in the village?

A. This again pertains to this basic map. The very village of Nogavac was not the target of attack. We can see that KLA forces, that is the 124th Brigade, was here.

Q. Whose brigade?

A. KLA. So Nogavac village was within the defence system, and there was a local headquarters for all these villages; Nogavac, Brestovac, Velika Hoca. ⁴¹⁸²³

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the paragraph of the indictment this relates to? You said 66(e), but it doesn't appear to be that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I said 63. It may be an error in the record, but it's 63(i). When I say "E," in English it should be "I."

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next thing the witness mentions is the mountain. Around Nogavac there are no mountains.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well, General. Further on it is alleged that: "The forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded these people, and on the following day, they ordered the 8.000 people who had sought shelter on the mountain to leave. The Kosovo Albanians were forced to go to a nearby school, and then they were forcibly dispersed into nearby villages." Is this familiar to you?

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but --

MR. KAY: It's 63(a)(i).

JUDGE ROBINSON: 63(a)(i). Yes, that's it. Continue.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And then they were forcibly dispersed into nearby villages. I don't know what "forcibly dispersed" could possibly mean. Do you know anything about 8.000 people being driven away from that mountain and into a nearby school and then being forcibly dispersed into nearby villages?

A. Already in the first days, according to a report by my subordinate commander, around this brook here there were about 200 civilians, and ⁴¹⁸²⁴ after the combat operations were finished, they were told to go back to their villages. They were from Nogavac and from Celine. Nogavac is not a large village. There is no way we can talk about 8.000 residents. 8.000 is a huge mass of people, and such a large group could not find shelter here without me seeing them from my position, and I was, let's say, four kilometres away from Nogavac. Eight thousand is a very large group. In that brook and around that brook near Nogavac there were about 200 people. A unit which passed by saw them. After the combat was over, they were told to go back home. There's no way this could be true. First of all, there are no mountains in the area, and second, there is no 8.000 people living in that entire territory.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Suppose the number was 2.000. Would that have been possible?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even that is an exaggeration. My commanders reported to me about 200 people. First -- and second of all, there is a reference to a mountain. You can see from these trig points what the elevation above sea level is. All this area around the village is covered by vineyards. This is the first mountain, the nearest mountain, Milanovac, here. But those people could not be there because I was here at this point. This is where my forces were, and those people would certainly have been observed. So this is a mildly, wavy flat land so to speak. Let me see. It's exactly 450 metres above sea level, whereas the area around the road is around 300 metres above sea level. There are no mountains whatsoever.

JUDGE ROBINSON: General, just remind us: On the 25th, where were ⁴¹⁸²⁵ you with your forces, the forces that you were personally commanding on the 25th? Tell us the name of the villages.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see that from this basic map. These are the initial positions of my forces. You can see them here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Name the villages.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you start from here, Pirane, Mala Krusa, Velika Krusa, Celine. Here, east of Bela Crkva, east of Orahovac, Velika Hoca, Zociste, Opterusa, and on this side Rastane. Then here on the line of blockade Donja Srbica, Trnje, Lesane. That would be the line approximately.

JUDGE ROBINSON: When the indictment makes allegations to areas that are not included in the sections that you have just identified where you were personally, you're relying on reports from your commanders as to the answers you are giving Mr. Milosevic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and the fact that I was personally present. So on the 25th, on the 26th, I was here at this location.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm talking about the areas that are not covered in those places where you were personally. You are giving evidence about those areas as well, and I'm saying that your information is therefore coming from other sources, and that is from the commanders.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are my commanders, and they were constantly in radio communication with me, and they were informing me and reporting to me about what was happening, when people asked for ⁴¹⁸²⁶ reinforcements when necessary, so I was in communication with them all the time.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE KWON: General, can I get the tab number of the map you were pointing at? If Mr. Kay would help us.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nogavac is tab 432.

JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. The map on the easel. The witness pointed at that one.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's 358.

JUDGE KWON: 358. Thank you. And do you know the tab number of the bigger map on your right side? Let's find out later.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the map was introduced at the beginning, that big map there. So we can find the number.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the fourth map in order, the intelligence map.

JUDGE KWON: So just for the record, we need tab numbers when the witness is referring to a certain map.

Please proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Further on in that same paragraph it says that on the 2nd of April, forces of the FRY and Serbia started shelling the villages, killing a number of people who had been sleeping in tractors and cars.

A. What is referred to is the same --

Q. Yes, yes, that's right, the same. It's all the same paragraph.

A. Let me say straight away that that is just not true, and we can ⁴¹⁸²⁷ see on this map here the forces of the army and the police at that time, and that's on a following map, were already in this area here, in another region altogether. So there was no -- there were no troops up until that point.

Q. All right, General. Now, link this up. A moment ago I said that Ali Hoti, Mr. Nice's witness, said that our planes had thrown bombs at Nogavac. That was on page 3552 to 3608 pages of the transcript, and you explained that there was in fact a NATO attack and that the village of Nogavac was bombed in that and that afterwards there was an on-site investigation after the NATO bombing.

Now, you brought some pictures of Nogavac after the NATO bombing on the 2nd of April. May we take a look at that footage or those pictures. It is in tab 435. It is a DVD of the village of Nogavac of the 2nd of April, 1999.

MR. KAY: Just while we're going over to that, the map to the right of the witness is 204, tab 204.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They can play the video segment from the beginning.

[Videotape played]

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is another video. We don't need that one.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. We'll see that one later on. Now, General, this -- these are the effects of the 2nd of April ⁴¹⁸²⁸ NATO bombing; is that right?

A. Yes.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... talking about the origin of the video or anything else about what's being seen, neither I think is any material available for me in the surrogate sheet which appears in the documents, and I don't know if there's anything else on the index, so I'm completely in the dark as to what we've been looking at.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must elicit evidence from the witness about the provenance of the video. What is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, please tell us the origins and source of this video.

A. It was footage filmed by a team from Radio-Television Serbia, Studio Prizren, on the 2nd of April, 1999. And together with members of the MUP, they were in the village of Nogavac when the on-site investigation was conducted, and later on they went to the hospital to take a film of the Siptars who were wounded.

Q. On this video -- well, we saw parts of projectiles with something written up on them. Can we see the -- where the projectiles came from?

A. Yes, you can see that on the footage. They were NATO projectiles, and I think the one we saw on the film belongs to the anti-radar harm rocket.

Q. Right. Now, General, could it be contested or challenged that NATO did the bombing of the village of Nogavac on the 2nd of April? Is there any doubt about that? ⁴¹⁸²⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a well-tried route, and you know that it's not permissible. It's leading.

MR. NICE: And has probably made valueless the follow-up question which might have been made in the right way, and I invite the Court simply to move on from where we've got and I'll do what I can with the film later if I judge it necessary to do anything with it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know, Mr. Robinson, what more you need of video footage of the bombing of the village of Nogavac where we can see the remains of projectiles, NATO projectiles described by the general --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you. Yes, we can see the video and we have seen it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, I quoted passages from the indictment to you where it is stated that on the 2nd of April, the forces of FRY and Serbia started shelling the villages and killing a number of people who had been sleeping in tractors and cars.

Now, what did actually happen on the 2nd of April in that village of Nogavac?

A. Briefly speaking, Nogavac was bombed by NATO planes, and the victims, just like the casualties who were wounded, were wounded by the bombing.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I'm not allowed to ask the question of whether it is contested or not that NATO bombed the village on ^{41830 BLANK PAGE 41831} the 2nd of April. You mean that's a leading question, do you? I'm not allowed to ask that? And we've already seen the video and we've seen the projectiles. Well, I had already asked him that and he had already given us his answer in the description of the projectile.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, did our planes at that time fly over the area at all?

A. Our planes at that time did not fly. They didn't even fly around Belgrade, especially not near the border. I know that for certain because there is a device at the level of the brigade which is called an APP device. It's a piece of equipment which allows us to monitor all planes flying on the territory of our country, both our own planes and enemy planes, and that particular device is one that my brigade had in its possession. And in my operative centre, when I had time, I would monitor the situation in the airspace. And apart from the first few days, that is to say when our planes which had taken off and were hit, after that, after those flights, there were no flights by our aviation, by our air force, throughout the war, no further flights.

Q. The indictment further goes on to claim that during these expulsions, because we were dealing with the dispersal, forcible dispersal of the people sent to the school, et cetera, that throughout the territory of the Orahovac municipality, forces of the FRY and Serbia systematically burnt houses, shops, cultural monuments and religious sites belonging to Kosovo Albanians. What can you tell us about that, about these claims? What is it that our army systematically did, as Mr. Nice says? ⁴¹⁸³²

A. As far as the place itself goes, Orahovac, the army did pass through Orahovac, and you can see today, anyway, that in Orahovac after the war there was a -- were only a large number of Serb houses that were set fire to, just like in 1998. So Orahovac, apart from the villages that we mentioned a moment ago, rather a large number of villages is to be found to the west of the road running from Orahovac to Malisevo, and it is in these villages that the army did not enter. The army never entered those villages at all.

Now, the following action at the beginning of April onwards, the operations took place towards Malisevo and this territory up here, but once again within the frameworks of the anti-terrorist attack or, rather, the 122nd Brigade of the KLA against that, which was located in the region of Dragobilje and Pagarusa.

Q. Very well. Now, General, in connection with the area you just mentioned, related to that and the activities of the army with respect to Malisevo, you have here an order in tab 438. Tab 438 is an order, as far as I can see. However, before we move on to discuss the order and Malisevo, we're going to pause there for a moment and look at tab 438, because in the meantime, quite apart from the documents that you have here, I would like to ask you several questions related to the Djakovica municipality.

Now, the area of Djakovica, was it important for the terrorist forces?

A. Yes, it was. The Djakovica region was especially interesting to the terrorist forces because Djakovica is to be found just seven ⁴¹⁸³³ kilometres away from the Albanian border, and because the main axes for armament supplies went to the north of Djakovica -- yes, to the north of Djakovica, that was the main route, and east of Djakovica, the two main routes.

Q. Very well, General. Now, in paragraph 63 of the indictment, it is claimed that beginning the 24th of March up until the 11th of May, 1999, the forces of the FRY and Serbia started forcing the inhabitants of the residents of Djakovica, forcing the residents to leave, and that they spread out through the town and went from house to house, ordering the Kosovo Albanians from their homes. So Djakovica was in your area of responsibility, was it not?

A. Yes, it was in my area of responsibility, but as the 2nd Brigade was located there, it was the PVO Brigade, it was its responsibility linked to the town, the anti-aircraft defence group, and just one of my battalions was located in town.

Q. All right. Now, in view of that one battalion of yours that was located there, based on that can you tell us that you are aware of everything that happened in Djakovica, that you know about it?

A. Well, I'm better acquainted with the events and the situation between the town of Djakovica and the boarder, that belt, because since 1998 my battalion was no longer in the town itself but moved towards the border belt.

Q. Very well. Now, let me ask you this, and that is something that is also stated in paragraph 63 of the indictment, (ii), it says that: "In the early hours of the morning of the 27th of April or round about that ⁴¹⁸³⁴ time the forces of the FRY and Serbia launched a massive attack against the Carragojs, Erenik and Trava valleys in order to drive the population out of the area." Now, do you know something about that area?

A. Yes, I do. It's an area to the west of Djakovica.

Q. Is that the area between Djakovica and the border that you mentioned?

A. It is the area between or, rather, from Djakovica moving towards Junik and Decani.

Q. So it's the area where your units were located; is that right?

A. Well, only one unit, which was located at the border. My unit was at the border on the fringes of that area, and I know about those combat operations. They began on the 27th, and I think that they ended on the 30th. And taking part as forces to block the forces was part of my unit or, rather, the 2nd Motorised Battalion.

Q. All right. The point of my question is this: I'm saying that -- they say that that -- that it -- the intention was to expel the population from the area.

A. That is absolutely not true. On the 11th of April, from Albania a breakthrough on land in the direction of Junik was perpetrated. If you need to, we can make a break and replace this map with a map showing the area.

Q. Well, we should be able to see the area because it says that this was some kind of offensive to evict the population from the area, to drive them -- the population out of the area, as it says.

A. So this is the town of Djakovica. This is the position of my ⁴¹⁸³⁵ battalion or, rather, one company of my battalion, and the valley Carragojs encompasses this region here running towards Decani, that is to say the villages of Smonica, Ponosevac, that's the general region to the west of Djakovica. In this part here there was a breakthrough across the state border on the 11th of April that was carried out and there was fighting here continuously until the end of the war. So the goal of the terrorist forces was that along -- to break through along this axis and link up with the forces in the region and with the other forces in this other area on the other side, which means in the area of Lake Radonjic. In actual fact, to break through our defences and to take control of Pec, Djakovica, and other towns moving towards Klina and Pristina.

Q. These operations that started on the 27th and ended on the 30th were aimed at crushing the terrorist forces that were in the area and preventing their link-up or, rather, a strike at the back of our forces and preventing a link-up with their forces from Albania. So that was the main aim of that operation.

Q. (ii) paragraph 63 says that the intention was to drive out the population of the area.

A. That is absolutely not true. The objective was what I described just now.

Q. All right. General, further on it says: "In Meja, Korenica and Meja Orize, a large and as yet undetermined, number of civilian males were separated from the mass of fleeing villagers, abducted and executed. Throughout the entire day, villagers under direct threat from the forces of the FRY and Serbia left their homes and joined several convoys of ⁴¹⁸³⁶ refugees using tractors, horse carts and cars and eventually crossed into Albania. The forces of the FRY and Serbia confiscated the identity documents of many of the Kosovo Albanians before they crossed the border." What can you say about this? I mean the entirety of the events that concerned Djakovica.

A. As for this, I've already explained why this operation had been organised. As for this expulsion of the population, the population left the area that was under threat because there were intensive military operations under way there against the terrorists. Further on, Meja is mentioned here. Meja and Korenica. Meja is somewhere around here on the road.

I just know, although that is not depicted on this map, that the position of my forces, that is to say the position of forces of the strength of about one company, was to prevent the terrorist forces from withdrawing here where my battalion was. So now we see the defence here, and now there was the blockade in this other area. Meja is perhaps about a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away. So as for what I know, and what I have are the reports of my commander, was that columns of civilians continued to move towards Djakovica. Now, I don't know whether they proceeded towards Prizren, because here in the direction of Djakovica there is also Cafa Pruse, a path through which civilians went to Albania, but I think that was only in the beginning of April. My knowledge here is only based on the report of the commander of my 2nd Battalion, and he informed me that there was fighting there and that he had three wounded men, one on one day and the ⁴¹⁸³⁷ second day he informed me about yet another one. I have these reports of his, and all my knowledge is based on the information that I got from his reports.

Q. All right. All this information that you receive, I mean you are in constant contact with your commanders and that is how command and control functions as far as your units are concerned --

A. I have to mention that all our communication centres had already been hit during the first days of the war, our stationary centres. And already at that time the communications were interrupted with this commander and there was about a two-day break in his reports. I have reports for those days, that is, but communication in any unit was not normal by then because from the air there was jamming already and also the stationary centres were destroyed.

Q. But you have precise information what the unit did, what happened, and all these details.

A. Yes. I have his daily report in writing for each and every day. As for the other units, that's where the difference is. Since this battalion is far away from the brigade command, the others reported by telephone because there were wire communications that we had placed, whereas he had to report via radio communication, via a particular device, so I always received his reports in writing.

Q. All right. Let me just draw your attention to --

MR. NICE: Your Honours, again before moving on and because there's going to be considerable difficulty retracing our steps onto matters of this kind, see here a reference to daily reports in writing for ⁴¹⁸³⁸ each and every day, I don't know if they're included in the materials that we've got, because I need to know.

I'm bound to observe the slow progress we've made today in terms of documents. It looked to me as though we're likely to be with this witness in chief until the end of the week, which will, I think, make him certainly the longest Defence witness, and possibly - I'm checking on how long Babic was - possibly the longest witness in chief so far.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Babic was, I think --

MR. NICE: I think longer.

JUDGE ROBINSON: 13 days. Yes.

MR. NICE: 13 days in total, in fact.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Total. Yes. Before we adjourn I'm going to deal with the admission of tabs 362 to 434. The following maps will be admitted: 372, 377, 380, 391, 403, 415, 424, 427, 430, and 433. And the following statements from the witness himself, Mr. Delic, will be admitted: 373, 379, 381, 392, 404, 416, 425, 428, 431, 434. Additionally, criminal reports 375 and the official report 376 are admitted.

I am to say two other things. First, all untranslated documents are marked for identification pending translation in the usual way; and secondly, also marked for identification will be the statements of persons other than the witness himself that were made to the ICTY commission.

JUDGE KWON: And tab 428 should be under seal for the same reason why we were in private session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that is so. ⁴¹⁸³⁹

MR. NICE: Your Honours, may I -- may I either make or make a second time an observation about the maps that I may wish to follow in cross-examination, express some reservations about, in particular the maps, but we'll see.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Also admitted are tabs 254, 255 and 261.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. That means we have admitted all of the tabs up to 361.

MR. KAY: Just for the record, the last map that was produced was 355, which was quite important for the witness's evidence.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thanks. So we are adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day

of July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.