Milosevic Transcript 2005-07-20

⁴²⁵⁶⁹

Wednesday, 20 July 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 8.34 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: I asked for the witness to be kept out just to explain what my position is and will be in respect of the timetable and possible further examination of this witness. I'm always anxious not to postpone any part of cross-examination, it adds to difficulties, and that's still my ambition here, notwithstanding the fact that the Court was good enough to indicate that cross-examination on SDC documents and/or VJ files would have to be postponed and thus might allow for the witness to return. I'm hopeful that on those topics I might be able to avoid any need to exercise, as it were, the opportunity to have him back for those purposes that the Chamber perhaps effectively allowed me. But reviewing the position overnight, I think that there are other reasons why it may be inevitable that I seek to have him back for cross-examination. Let me identify a few of them.

Fundamentally difficult for us has been preparation of this witness because his exhibits weren't on the 65 ter list, they weren't provided in advance, and when they were provided, they weren't translated. Sometimes with a bulk of material like this it's easy to overlook the significance of non-translation, but for example, if the Chamber turns its attention to what the accused would probably regard as the critical documents at the end of our volumes 5, the beginning of volume 6, which ⁴²⁵⁷⁰ are the documents of the witness's subordinate officers produced through the VJ commission, either half or more of those are simply not translated, and work though we have with the resources available, it has not been possible for us to review them and, therefore, the fundamental documents that he would rely on for the purposes of his defence in relation to the commission of offences simply haven't been available to us. Now, I shall, of course, be applying, as you will have forecast, to exclude those documents on grounds in any event, but one way or -- and I have to be careful not to make any sort of application that's inter terrorem, but those documents present a fundamental difficulty for us. And it's not only the documents of the subordinates. I discovered last night as reviewing just how little of the material had been truly available to us, that if you look at tab 381, which I think is in volume 5, it's actually quite an important report of this witness, and unless things have changed in the binders of the Court from those that I have to deal with, 381, which is said to be a comprehensive report by this witness, so it might conceivably fall into a different category from those of his subordinates, I only have in the translation that says translation incomplete, which might have suggested that the document provided was incomplete. But then I also have in my same tab 381 a complete version of the document in Cyrillic, the second and third pages of which simply haven't been translated, and this is his report for the 25th to the 28th of March, so it's the absolutely critical period.

JUDGE ROBINSON: If it's the same document that I'm looking at, I have a translation, I think. ⁴²⁵⁷¹

MR. NICE: I only have --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see. You say it's document incomplete. It does have document incomplete.

MR. NICE: That's because only the first page, for some reason, was dealt with, but if you look beyond that, Your Honour will probably find in Cyrillic a three-page document. So it doesn't matter whose shortcoming it is; the full document was provided but -- no. And I tried to work on it overnight, but I simply can't say I'm prepared to deal with that.

And indeed, and I may deal with this this morning, these -- with one example, these documents produced by the witness of his subordinates via the VJ commission are documents that probably merit really quite careful analysis if one's to look at their integrity and to measure the credibility of the witness beside them. So that's a fundamental point. But there are other really serious difficulties. I'm simply not personally - and I'm not making a point, I'm expressing so far as I'm concerned a real problem - I simply don't understand what the witness is currently saying about the existence of underlying source material either at the time or since. Now, the Court knows that we've made every application for material of the kind that would help us and the Court, and we've simply been thwarted. We've tried to work through the Court and with its orders, but one way and another we simply haven't got the material. And I think it would be irresponsible of me not to initiate, in light of the answers of the witness, a repeat request for all documents of his brigade so that ⁴²⁵⁷² we can have an answer from the authorities on whether such documents exist coming up from, say, battalions to brigades --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I can give you my view on that, Mr. Nice. The case can't be held up because the documents are not available. You know, we'll have to make our own assessment on the basis of the evidence that is before us and assess credibility.

MR. NICE: I understand that, Your Honour. At that doesn't, I think, stop me in making the request because --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you can make the request but it cannot go on ad infinitum. There must come a time when it must stop.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, that I understand, but my duty to go on investigating right through the case, and indeed through appeal, I think, is settled in jurisprudence of the Tribunal, and this is such a flagrant act of non-cooperation by the authorities over the years, not made good by the production of documents by this witness and not helped by the fact that none of them were dealt with on the 65 ter list --

JUDGE ROBINSON: If a state fails to cooperate and fails to produce documents requested, it doesn't mean that the case can't be determined.

MR. NICE: No, no, of course.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There are other ways of dealing with that state.

MR. NICE: Yes, but on matters of this importance, if those documents do exist, it's obviously in the interests of the Trial Chamber that the Trial Chamber should have them.

The war diary, so-called, that we've looked at is clearly a ⁴²⁵⁷³ document that merits careful inspection, scrutiny, and maybe skepticism, and it's a document of which we would clearly now, having looked at it, require the original, or require sight of the original at the very least if they won't release the original to the Court. That itself will take some time.

And then finally, Your Honour, not -- well, no not finally at all. Again without prejudice to whether the Court admits the untranslated or the translated documents of the witness's subordinates produced by the commission, in light of the way this evidence was presented, it was of course quite impossible for us to investigate what those witnesses are said to have said, whereas with Kosovo witnesses or statements from people in Kosovo we can go and see them comparatively quickly, as the Court knows. To see an officer or former officer or retired officer in Serbia is a matter of months of work. It's not matter of picking up the telephone or sending an investigator to see him. It does not and cannot work like that. And so we simply haven't about able to investigate these matters.

Now, that of course, it may be, could be reflected, if there's fruits to such investigation, in rebuttal evidence. It may also be that it would be material that would more properly be dealt with in cross-examination.

The commission itself, which of course comes before you as a body of significance for the first time with this witness, although it's been touched upon before, is a body that was disbanded by Minister Tadic, as he then was, for reasons that are touched upon in the public domain but in ⁴²⁵⁷⁴ respect of which we have outstanding inquiries and despite every effort it hasn't been possible to have those inquiries resolved by today. I suspect I'll get some documents by the end of next week or the week after which may materially affect the cross-examination that I should put to this witness. Until I have those documents, I can't know. So, Your Honour, for those reasons, what I would propose to do, if the Court will allow me, is do my best to reach a point today where, with luck, there won't be any need to call him back; i.e., I'll leave outstanding issues that I have to leave by the Court's orders but I hope to deal with them with other witnesses, and depending on the fruits of my other inquiries and other requests, there may be no need to have this witness back but I must reserve my position.

If the Court is happy with that, then the accused could press on with re-examination and hopefully conclude today. I gather he's indicated informally that he may only require one session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, could I clarify [microphone not activated].

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated].

MR. NICE: Microphone for Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I just wanted to clarify that.

MR. NICE: I would hope to reach a position where there is a real chance that I won't have to have him back, that I can deal with everything in another way, but I can't make -- I can't make it unequivocal that I won't make that application. ⁴²⁵⁷⁵

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, then. Mr. Milosevic, let's have the witness in Court, and it's for you to re-examine. I should say in relation to the two documents that you --

MR. NICE: No, no, absolutely not. Sorry, not now, Your Honour. I haven't finished now. I'm so sorry if Your Honour misunderstood me. I've got at least another session to go.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see.

MR. NICE: Even to reach the position where he could start.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. But I'll still --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The way you accept so easily everything Mr. Nice says is really admirable, but I have to say something about the documents in connection with General Delic. They were disclosed exactly three months ago. Today is the 20th of July, and the documents were disclosed on the 20th of April. The fact that they have not been translated is of no interest to me whatsoever. That is not my job, and --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in all fairness, it must be a matter that affects the Prosecutor's right to cross-examine if the documents are not translated. If you have documents that are not translated, it would affect your right to cross-examine too.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. Very well, Mr. Robinson. I'm glad you said that. I told you that I had received several hundreds of thousands of pages untranslated and you didn't even give me enough time to read them. Therefore, your attitude towards what ⁴²⁵⁷⁶ Mr. Nice is saying, and he's behaving like a spoiled child and his every request is being granted, and your attitude to me with respect to translations of documents and time to study the documents really cannot be compared, and I want this on the record.

Secondly, there were objections that there were many exhibits introduced through Mr. Delic. Now Mr. Nice says there are few. I don't really know what you want. Do you want more exhibits? Do you want more documents or do you want fewer documents? Or is Mr. Nice having a huge problem because he's unable to challenge what the general is testifying to and documenting?

All the witnesses he brought have testified to something that is now being disputed.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I must reject out of hand your remark about disparity in treatment. The Chamber has treated both parties fairly and evenly.

We have not made any decision on the submissions made by Mr. Nice in relation to untranslated documents. We will do so at the time when it -- when the issue arises.

I was going to say that in relation to the two documents that you mentioned yesterday, we have investigated them and both of them were referred to. They are untranslated and, in accordance with the Chamber's practice, they will be marked for -- for identification.

MR. NICE: With Your Honours leave.

WITNESS: BOZIDAR DELIC [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] ⁴²⁵⁷⁷ Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

Q. Mr. Delic, yesterday -- I'm so sorry.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Mr. Delic, yesterday we were dealing with Dubrovnik. A witness in this case, Nojko Marinovic, a general who had been based at Trebinje and then moved to defend or to lead the defence of Dubrovnik, did you know that general? You were based in the adjacent or nearby premises -- base.

A. No, I didn't know him, but I have heard of him.

Q. And he explained that the idea lying behind the attack on Dubrovnik, as he understood it from his previous position at a VJ base, moving late in the story to Dubrovnik, was that there should be an attack on several axes to reach the Neretva River and the Neretva valley as soon as possible to connect up with the 10th Brigade from Mostar. Did you write that?

A. These general plans are something I'm not familiar with. In Dubrovnik, as I said, in the Dubrovnik area I dealt with civilian affairs, making life better for the population there. At that time, all activities around Dubrovnik had already been completed, at least as far as 1991 is concerned.

Q. You're a comparatively senior officer becoming a very senior officer at a young age. Can you not help us, please, with what the plans were to attack Dubrovnik, given the extreme notoriety that attack attracted? ⁴²⁵⁷⁸

A. When you say notorious -- notoriety, I have to say that this is a manipulation. When the military operations began, conducted by the JNA, which was attempting to defend the integrity of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, Dubrovnik could have been taken in one day. But as far as I know, because of interventions, perhaps from Belgrade, the units were prevented from entering Dubrovnik. It had already been abandoned by all the forces defending it.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... justification for taking the city of Dubrovnik by force and shelling it then? What was the justification?

A. At that time, there was no shelling of Dubrovnik at all. The entire territory was being defended by illegal and paramilitary forces; the ZNG, the Zbor Narodne Garde and Zbor Narodne Zastite, which on the territory of Montenegro attacked the JNA.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. The state that --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... former president, currently Prime Minister Djukanovic had to make public apology for what happened to Dubrovnik and that I think reported in yesterday's newspapers the process of paying damages in respect of what happened there has started. Are you aware of all that?

A. Yes, as for Mr. Djukanovic, I don't wish to comment on him because even in 1992, during the war, he was considered an ally by our enemies, and I'm not surprised at all. Wesley Clark, in his book, called him a friend, an ally. ⁴²⁵⁷⁹

Q. This man who sat on the Supreme Defence Council - I shan't be asking you about the Supreme Defence Council - right up until Kosovo, it was an ally of your enemies; is that right?

A. No. I don't want to say that. He was apologising for something done by territorial units from Montenegro, perhaps. I was part of the regular units of the JNA. Croatia was part of Yugoslavia. Dubrovnik was part of Yugoslavia. We were defending Yugoslavia there.

Q. You see, General Marinovic, with his knowledge from both the previous existing plans and what happened on the ground, said that the ultimate plan was to take the territory up to the Karlobag-Karlovac-Virovitica line, exactly what Kadijevic said in his book, and I must suggest to you that you as a senior officer, then and since, know that to be absolutely the plan the Serbs had for Croatia.

A. You are absolutely not right. The Yugoslav People's Army was attempting to preserve the integrity of Yugoslavia. Preserving the integrity of Yugoslavia coincided with the interests of the Serbs, and this is understandable because the Serbs are a people living in Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and it suited them to remain living all together in a state which, at the European level, according to its size and population, was quite a respectable state with 20 million inhabitants and a large territory.

Q. Your answer isn't entirely responsive but let me repeat the question with one addition: Fighting on the south up from Dubrovnik and being involved in the attack on Vukovar to the north, working in the same direction, am I right - last question on this topic - am I right that ⁴²⁵⁸⁰ those attacks would have taken the part of Croatia under Serb control to the Karlovac-Virovitica-Karlobag line?

A. No, you're not right. You're not right. The army was supposed to defend Yugoslavia, and that was its constitutional right, to defend Yugoslavia from secession, from a break-up prepared outside Yugoslavia in cooperation with certain destructive forces within the country itself.

Q. Before we move from Croatia, the same television programme that you told us you'd seen, this time a very short clip from Babic, an interview with Milan Babic just to confirm one of the things you told us yesterday.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]... which were smaller military formations - they were active officers of the JNA who remained in the Krajina according to a decision of the personnel administration of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia. They received salaries from the army of Yugoslavia. They were promoted to appropriate ranks. Their service was counted double for purposes of pension."

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this is clip number 1 on the transcript of excerpts that I provided.

Q. And this confirms, doesn't it, what Babic says, something you would agree with; people left behind or otherwise working in the Krajina would receive double salaries, wartime rate, and be promoted to adequate ranks, yes?

A. No, you are not right. In spite of the fact that they were in the Krajina, people were not paid double salaries. These were people who had ⁴²⁵⁸¹ been born in the Krajina, and they were there to defend their own people. What he says about this being counted double in their service, that was according to the law. You are --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you're quite right --

A. -- overlooking a fact --

Q. -- phrase "double salaries," it's double benefit for pension purposes. Press on. Do you agree with that and do you agree with what Babic says?

A. I do not agree completely with what he says, but you're not letting me tell you the true facts.

Q. Can we move now then to Bosnia. You were in Bosnia for a time. Just tell us, please, where were you in July 1995 again?

A. Mr. Nice, you have a poor memory. In July 1995, I was in Kosovo and Metohija, and I told you that on the first day.

Q. And you didn't go back to Bosnia at all in that part of 1995?

A. No. I had no need to return to Bosnia. I was the Chief of Staff of the 549th Motorised Brigade in Prizren.

Q. Very well. I wanted to know finally that you hadn't been back there because I'm going to ask you some further questions about Srebrenica but not very many. Before we come to them and in light of what you've already said about your service in Bosnia, can we look at clip 2, please. This is from the same programme, the person speaking is Ljubomir Stojadinovic, who was head of information administration for the General Staff until 1994.

[Videotape played] ⁴²⁵⁸² ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁵⁸³

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me put you right there straight away, not to mislead the Trial Chamber. What you've just said is absolutely incorrect. This man was never at the head of the Intelligence Administration, and I don't know how --

MR. NICE:

Q. The word I used was information and that's what he's put out as on the subtitle, head of information administration, and you'll see what he says.

A. The interpretation I received was that he was head of the intelligence administration, which is quite incorrect. This is just a marginal person in our army. At the time, he was in charge of information.

Q. Thank you. We'll play what he has to say.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] ... the Serbian army in Western Serbian lands. So that was the formulation. And at those meetings, generally once a month, we would decide how Yugoslavia should help the armies across the Drina River."

MR. NICE:

Q. Right. Pausing there. Is there any reason to doubt what Colonel Stojadinovic says about there being regular discussions about -- in the Serbian army about how to help those armies across the Drina River?

A. You see, you've played an excerpt here to us in which we simply don't know when this footage was taken, what role Mr. Stojadinovic was in there, and ultimately what he said was just two sentences which are not ⁴²⁵⁸⁴ essential at all, that they discussed how to help the Serbs across the Drina. That's all he said. Well, of course this was discussed. It was discussed throughout Serbia in every company, in every municipality, even in Kosovo, how to send humanitarian aid across the Drina River.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... question of humanitarian aid, was it? You Serb soldiers with nationalist inclinations, if you had them or otherwise, were concerned to provide military help to your Serb brothers across the Drina. Yes or no.

A. Brothers across the Drina. Well, brothers are helped everywhere and at all times even if it is only moral assistance. That's understandable.

Q. The intention was to provide military assistance. Yes or no.

A. Republika Srpska and the army of Republika Srpska was so strong that she didn't need any assistance.

Q. So what was required then, just humanitarian assistance?

A. Humanitarian assistance was needed and probably what else was needed was support on a diplomatic level, international level, and so on and so forth. But those are matters which go outside the scope of my authority. I don't want to speak about them because they are outside my professional competence.

Q. Well, you went over and served in the Hercegovina Corps, didn't you?

A. Yes. So you can ask me any questions from the time that I was there.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, this -- this would relate to one of the ⁴²⁵⁸⁵ topics about which deferral is necessary but I'll ask the question in general terms.

Q. Were you aware of a request going out from the leader of the SAO for Krajina seeking support for the Hercegovina Corps in the form of military personnel?

A. The SAO seeking support from Herzegovina? Is that what you're asking? No.

Q. Support for the Hercegovina Corps in the form of military personnel, and that would have been in December of 1992.

A. I was there from 1993.

Q. Yes.

A. From April 1993, in fact, until the end of January 1994, and during that period of time quite certainly no assistance was requested.

Q. My question is whether your attending there, you said as a volunteer, but my question is whether your attending there was actually responsive to a request for military assistance in the form of officers, and a number were made available, the request made initially by the leader of the SAO Krajina.

A. Mr. Nice, I really -- when you ask me questions like this, I'm really trying to understand you as best I can, with the best intentions in the world, but you just don't know the situation. You mention SAO Krajina. What SAO Krajina are you referring to? I was in the Hercegovina Corps as a volunteer because I come from the territory. That's where I originated from. My mother and father were born there, in the Bileca area precisely, which is where I served for ten years myself and I went there ⁴²⁵⁸⁶ as a volunteer. So what SAO Krajina are you referring to?

MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm not in a position, in light of the restrictions on me, to take this matter any further at the moment. I'll have to deal with it in another way at another time. I can give the Court the identifying documents later on.

Q. It comes to this, Mr. Delic: I'm challenging your suggestion that you went there simply as a volunteer. You went there as part of a planned response to a request. True or false?

A. Mr. Nice, what you say is absolutely false. Probably in some records in Belgrade, but I didn't think this was important, you would find a request from me to be allowed to go to Herzegovina, which is the land I originated from, where my forefathers came from, my parents in fact. And I have documents giving me permission to go, to come back, and they wrote to my unit telling them what my work was like when I was there.

Q. There may well be such a request. We'll see it, if we get access to your file, and such requests -- I must ask you, were such requests required of those going to serve in order that it could look like being a volunteer? Or if not required, encouraged or pressed to go and serve in order that it might make them look like volunteers? Is that what happened?

A. That is absolutely not what happened. I don't know how you never hit on the right thing in your head. You always have some negative ideas. That was my wish. I wanted my wish to be fulfilled.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

MR. NICE: Your Honours, the witness is taking a great deal of ⁴²⁵⁸⁷ time with supplementary answers. I'm asking him questions. It's up to the Court, and I'm doing my best to get through things, but he takes a great deal of time always with the supplementary observations. I doubt to the Court if they're helpful, the questions are very straightforward.

Q. I'm going to play another clip now, please. This is --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you have made the complaint before but I don't see anything improper in the witness's answers.

MR. NICE: If that's what Your Honour wishes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I will encourage the witness. General, try to answer more directly. Avoid the introductory commentary.

MR. NICE:

Q. Another clip from General Perisic, whom you've described in condemning terms, but let's see what he had to say on this part of the television programme.

[Videotape played]

MR. KAY: On these questions and answers, when it's put in an argumentative form and in a comment with a direct barb, you're going to get the comeback from the witness. So you reap what you sow.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That may be, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Yes, maybe to an extent, but I wanted to remind the witness --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: -- what he's already told us about this witness. I could have done it in two questions. Let's press on. ⁴²⁵⁸⁸

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]... had its political peak in Republika Srpska. It was not made without agreement from the state leaderships of Yugoslavia. The army was closely linked for many reasons, because it was a united army on the one hand and on the other hand because it had its members in all those areas. And thirdly, because it had the technical facilities and its logistical support which it gained from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia mostly."

MR. NICE:

Q. Mr. Delic, we didn't hear the very beginning of that which deals with -- in the introductory passage he speaks of the Republika Srpska Krajina, even though it had its political leadership having its decisions made in full agreement with the top -- political top of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and he says the same thing happened in Republika Srpska. That was the introduction. He says because it was, I think in the translation we've had, a united army.

Now, do you accept from your experience in both Croatia and in Bosnia that it was in reality through that time a united army, the RSK, the VRS, and the army in Serbia?

A. Well, then it would have been called a united army. There was the army of Republika Srpska, there was the army of Republika Srpska Krajina, and there was the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. These are questions you should be asking the gentleman we just saw on the screen.

Q. I'm asking you because you were a practical --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. ⁴²⁵⁸⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't want to object before the witness had a chance to answer because I didn't want you to think that I was giving instructions to the witness, so I waited for the witness's answer. But I think it is quite improper in this way to extract things from their context and then ask the witness what General Perisic is talking about. General Perisic was here for a year. Why didn't Mr. Nice bring him in here to testify, to sit opposite me and then to say something if he had anything to say?

Secondly, he doesn't say that the army of Krajina and Republika Srpska and Yugoslavia was a united army. What he's talking about, as far as I was able to follow based on this context, was that in Republika Srpska it was a united army which had a large amount of technical means for which it needed resources from the territory of Yugoslavia, but you can hear that only if you listen to everything he says. And this is quite -- saying that it is a united army is quite unreal, nebulous.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you raising a problem of translation or just a problem of understanding, interpreting what the general said, General Perisic? If it's matter of translation, then --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, my objection is to this: That the interpretation is incorrect as interpreted -- he couldn't have said what Mr. Nice said, not the translation. The interpretation of how it was thought to have been said.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown footage, then Mr. Nice said something that I didn't see on the footage. Mr. Peric said what he ⁴²⁵⁹⁰ said and then I went on listening to what Mr. Perisic said. If he wants me to say something, he must play the entire video for me to see the entire footage, and I consider in general terms that Mr. Nice's questions are absolutely irrelevant, because Mr. Peric was here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will determine the relevance of the questions, General.

All right. Proceed, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. You were a practical soldier rising to a very senior rank with access to information appropriate to your rank and no doubt with some historical ability to look at what had happened. What General Perisic said, according to the interpreters in Court today, was that it was a united army. We have another transcript which expresses it slightly differently, but that's what was said today.

Were these three armies, in your experience, acting as a united army?

A. First of all, General Perisic doesn't say that it was a united army, so you can't claim that because that's not what he said. Secondly, the question you're asking me of whether it was a united army, I tell you it was not a united army. We had the army of Yugoslavia led by General Perisic, then we had the army of Republika Srpska led by Mr. Mladic, then there was the army of Republika Srpska Krajina - I don't know who was at the head of that army, I just can't remember now - but that's it.

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Delic, what is it you say that has been wrongly translated? ⁴²⁵⁹¹

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't a united army. General Perisic --

JUDGE BONOMY: You said that's what Perisic said. Could you tell us what Perisic actually said, according to you from what you heard.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm having problems with my headsets. Too much noise and interference. That's better now. Can you hear me now?

General Perisic said that they were armies of Republika Srpska Krajina, Republika Srpska, which relied on the officers who came from the Yugoslav People's Army, and that the technical facilities that both armies had in the logistics sense depended on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that related to parts of it, logistics support, for example, linked to combat technology.

All the officers who were in those three armies came from a united army, but from a united army that is to say the Yugoslav People's Army. When the Yugoslav People's Army ceased to exist, then the matter was quite different. Some of them went to join the army of Republika Srpska Krajina, the others went to the Republika Srpska, and others again stayed in the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

MR. NICE:

Q. Well, then let's look at the next clip from General Peric. We'll hope to -- it's a very short clip but we'll hope to get it all in --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters be provided with a transcript of the footage.

MR. NICE: My oversight. I thought it was provided a couple of ⁴²⁵⁹² days ago. If it wasn't, I'm sorry about that. It was provided but it must have been in the mass of paper. I wouldn't be surprised if something could occasionally get mislaid. But it's very short.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] An attack, on any entity, meaning, the Republika Srpska Krajina or Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or meant an attack --"

THE INTERPRETER: The witness says that he cannot make out what is being said on the tape, and the interpreters agree.

JUDGE ROBINSON: There is a technical problem. We'll try to have it resolved.

MR. NICE:

Q. While the technical problem's being resolved and to save time, I'll give you a possible English translation of what the general is saying and it's very short, we can listen to it, and see if it matches the English translation.

The English translation is to the following effect --

MR. NICE: I suppose, Your Honour, it would always make more sense to get a B/C/S reader to read the transcript, but I don't have one available and I can't really ask Ms. Dicklich to do it, so I better do it in English.

"An attack, on any entity, meaning, the Republika Srpska Krajina, or the Republika Srpska or on the FRY, meant an attack on all three. In that sense, the army had to take certain measures, and there were many discussions about that, even some decisions were made." ⁴²⁵⁹³ Now, I wonder if we could try the tape again and see if we can get the text.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] ... on any entity, meaning the Republika Srpska Krajina or the Republika Srpska or the FRY, meant an attack on all three. And in that sense, the army had to take certain measures and there were many discussions about that, even some decisions were made."

MR. NICE:

Q. Now, what he's saying there on that tape is that an attack on one meant an attack on all three. You were a serving officer. Was that your understanding of the way the three armies were going to react, and in particular the army of Serbia; to regard an attack on any one component part as an attack on all three?

A. Well, I was certainly a soldier then performing lower-level duties. There were attacks on Republika Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska, and the army of Yugoslavia did not react once. As far as I know, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was the signatory of an agreement when it came to Republika Srpska Krajina, and the aggression of Croatia against Republika Srpska Krajina, even the protected areas under UN protection, were acts counter to the law and counter to the decision taken by the United Nations, and our country was signatory to that agreement, and in my opinion it ought to have reacted at the time but it did not. So what General Perisic is saying here never actually happened.

Q. And -- ⁴²⁵⁹⁴

A. Perhaps he had plans of that kind, but it never actually took place.

Q. And in particular when we come on to Srebrenica, was there any sense there, in your experience and judgement, of a united army, to use the term of the translation, or of the need for all to act for one and one for all?

A. That's just your story. I don't know. Every day here you're trying to bring me into context with Srebrenica in one way or another, and I've already told you that I was never in that territory at all. You're trying to link me up with that.

At that time all contacts had been interrupted between the army of Republika Srpska and the army of Yugoslavia, every form of technical assistance. All they could do, and that was on the basis of the personal wishes of someone, somebody could move to Republika Srpska or Srpska Krajina and be a volunteer there in the units of the army of Republika Srpska, for instance.

Q. Relation, finally, on Bosnia to Srebrenica, you'll remember that you told us on the earlier occasion I asked you about this that you thought the people dying there were killed in combat. Is that still your position?

A. I said at the time that nobody verified and checked out how many of the people who died there died in battle and how many died outside battle. I'm certain that a large number were killed in battle -- was killed in battle.

Q. When did you first accept, you personally, when did you first ⁴²⁵⁹⁵ accept that any were killed other than in battle, by massacre of Bosnians by Serbs? When did you accept that?

A. Mr. Nice, this is the second time you're trying to put those words into my mouth. When this Tribunal completes its work, I expect the Court to give us the real truth about Srebrenica. Therefore, I have no awareness and knowledge of that, and I do not accept that a massacre committed there in the manner in which you are presenting it here. On that territory, there were fatalities on the part of both peoples, both the Serbs and Muslims. But stress is laid here, especially of late, only of the victims of one ethnic group as if the other ethnic group was worthless, not worthy of being mentioned, and we're dealing with several thousand people there again on that side too.

Q. As you recollect, Mr. Delic, we're looking at your credibility through your approach to these matters. You've seen this television programme. You've made that clear. I just want you to take a look at one last clip. To explain it, it begins with context given by a narrator, and the person who then speaks, Dr. Zoran Stankovic, is a pathologist and indeed on the Defence witness list. Let's see what is said.

[Videotape played]

THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] NARRATOR: They launched an offensive in Eastern Bosnia. On the 26th of June, 1995 they take over the Srebrenica. The Hague Tribunal, because of a massacre of more than 7.000 civilians and prisoners of war, will raise an indictment for genocide and crimes against humanity against Ratko Mladic, the President of Republika Srpska Radovan Karadzic, and others. ⁴²⁵⁹⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁵⁹⁷ "INTERVIEWEE: What was presented and why those people who have been indicted should be held responsible is because of the some 300 bodies. They had ligatures around their hands, on their eyes, and wounds on their bodies, and it's quite obvious that those people and that number of people were killed as a result of execution."

MR. NICE:

Q. Now, you see, there Dr. Stankovic, Serb pathologist, even as long ago as this programme that you saw is making it clear as to 300 people, they were executed. Did that not affect your thinking at all about Srebrenica or was your mind closed to any and all information coming to you about it?

A. Mr. Nice, what you're trying to do with my credibility is completely improper because you just speak about Srebrenica. What Mr. Stankovic is saying there is something that I'm hearing for the first time. I am in favour, of course, of having all criminals be held responsible, from any nation, any ethnic group, and last time I said that I'm first of all in favour of having criminals from my own ethnic group being brought to trial. And we say here that 300 persons were tied up with ligatures and that they were executed. So the people who did that must be brought to court and must be held responsible. But the real truth must be established as well and all the perpetrators of crimes and people responsible must be brought before the Tribunal. I'm talking about perpetrators from my own ethnic group. Let it be up to other national groups to see that criminals among their number be brought to trial as well. ⁴²⁵⁹⁸ I completely support what General Stankovic is taking here, although I'm hearing this extract for the first time and seeing that footage for the first time.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... television programme as part of the same television programme you see.

A. Well, you see, I have quite a lot of duties to attend to and can't spend my time sitting in front of the television set all day. I know Mr. Stankovic personally. I've talked to him a number of times, and I know that he is quite certainly a highly professional man, a good pathologist, and I don't doubt at all for one minute what he said here and I completely agree with him.

Q. You speak of the need for people from your own ethnicity to be investigated. Mladic has been identified as somebody responsible for Srebrenica since 1995. You were in the army. Were you aware of the army ever investigating that allegation?

A. Mr. Mladic was in the army of Republika Srpska. I only saw him twice in my life, and that was before that time. At that time, I was a lieutenant colonel, he was a general --

Q. Pausing there.

A. -- and --

Q. You are aware --

A. -- we saw each other in passing.

Q. -- of course, of the links between Mladic and the Serb army acknowledged publicly, at the time, that for example, his VJ file has been discussed publicly. Has there been to your knowledge any investigation by ⁴²⁵⁹⁹ your army of any of those indicted and being detained here, some of them, said to be involved in Srebrenica?

A. Of course. I know that at the time while I was an active officer several actions were taken in certain military facilities on the basis of some reports that General Mladic may be there. The facilities would be blocked abruptly, they would be entered, but all of that is pointless, because the army of Yugoslavia never hid Mladic. Even today some people are saying that he may be in Serbia, but I think that this is a piece of nonsense. I think that that is used as a pretext for exercising pressure against my country.

Q. You're answering a different question which I hadn't asked you and I'm not going to pursue, where he may be or where he may have been hidden. I just want to know, you as a senior army officer, are you aware of any inquiry into Mladic or any of the others - Gvero, Pandurevic and all of those - are you aware of any investigation since 1995 by the army into those who are said are members of or linked to that army, your army?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is totally inappropriate. All the names that Mr. Nice referred to are those of members of the army of Republika Srpska, not the army of Yugoslavia, except if he considers them to be members of the army of Yugoslavia because they are receiving social benefits from the army of Yugoslavia until 2000 something. They receive these benefits for a longer period of time after the war than during the war itself. So all these people are -- ⁴²⁶⁰⁰

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I see nothing improper in the question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Robinson, why would the question not be phrased differently? Why did -- didn't yet another army conduct an investigation about a third army? Why would it be the job of the army of Yugoslavia to investigate the army of Republika Srpska? The Dayton agreement was signed in 1995. You have foreign forces there. You have the High Representative there. You have all organs there. The armies are there too. Isn't it up to them to investigate?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, those are matters that you may raise in re-examination. I don't think they make the question improper.

MR. NICE:

Q. May I have an answer to my question, please, Mr. Delic? Any investigation, any inquiry by your army --

A. There is really nothing else for me to say about that. Mr. Milosevic just said it too. What was done in our army and in our police was a search for these persons. If some kind of investigation were to be carried out, then relevant documentation would be required and everything else. They were members of another army. In our country, we were only trying to see whether they were hiding on our territory.

Q. Moving back then to Kosovo. Binder 5, please, and Exhibit 3 --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is your programme today? Is each session going to be an hour and a half, too, or will there be any ⁴²⁶⁰¹ changes involved?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We started at 8.30, so we'll break at 10.00 for 20 minutes, and then another hour and a half.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: But we are finishing at 1.15.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. NICE:

Q. Return, please, to volume 5 in the English, at tab 356.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, may I have private session for one minute, literally? May I have private session, with Your Honour's leave, for one minute?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session, yes.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴²⁶⁰²

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴²⁶⁰³

[Open session]

MR. NICE:

Q. Mr. Delic, we've looked at and we'll continue probably to look at 356 and the associated documents, but 356 is dated the 23rd of March. So that's, what, one day before the opening of the war diary and one day before the --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm sorry. May I just clarify something for the benefit of Mr. Milosevic.

MR. NICE: Certainly.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this does not mean that there will not be an opportunity to refer to these matters. After we have had the Appeals Chamber's ruling on the matter, we'll then know how to proceed, and it may then be that the general will be recalled. So it does not mean that you have lost an opportunity to refer to those matters. Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Mr. Delic, this document of the 23rd of March is one day before the opening of the war diary and I think one day before the declaration of war. Do you accept that?

A. Yes. That is one day before.

Q. It comes to the Joint Command. Incidentally, we never established this --

A. But, Mr. Nice, you said before the declaration of the war. However, as far as I know, there was no war that was ever declared. It was an illegal war. It was an aggression. One day before the aggression, ⁴²⁶⁰⁴ that is to say.

Q. Very well, however you wish to describe it. A tiny point we haven't actually dealt with yet is the Joint Command, when you wanted to communicate with the Joint Command, what -- how did you do it? Who did you telephone, or if you sent a written message, where did you address it?

A. I never had any contact with the Joint Command, because the Joint Command functions only as this notion that you see here on paper. This group of people that you are trying to call a Joint Command, that was the coordinating body. Nobody could called a Joint Command or the Joint Command because it didn't have an address or telephone.

Q. Well, it didn't have an address or telephone, but when the communications like this one, which is written and in however many pages it is, arrived, where did it come from? It didn't come down with a shower of rain, as they say. It had to come physically from somewhere. Where did they come from?

A. Yes. They came from the command of the Pristina Corps, in the mail that I got from the Pristina Corps, and this is the fifth time I'm saying this.

Q. Now, what I'd like you to help me with is this: This order that precedes the aggression, as you describe it, or whatever else it was, gives instruction to attack, if we turn over, for example, to part of paragraph 5, "continue the attack, destroying the remaining SDS," and so on.

Where did the Joint Command order - where did this order - derive its authority that it could command you to go out and attack? ⁴²⁶⁰⁵

A. First of all, you are using some expressions that are inappropriate. Nowhere does it say to continue an attack. It is specifically stated that on such-and-such a day an attack should start. I've already explained that here.

Prior to this order, I got a preparatory order from the commander of the Pristina Corps to prepare the units, and after that I got this order, and there's nothing controversial about it as far as I'm concerned. It was registered with the command of the Pristina Corps and in the office of the Pristina corps, because here in this part, where it says "Strictly confidential," the number is from the command of the Pristina Corps. I've already explained why that is what it said on the top of the page.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, there is something that is not clear to me. Why do you object to the Prosecutor using the term "Joint Command"? We have had this several times in your testimony. Because the word itself is in the text.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it's not that I'm objecting, because here in the text it really does say "Joint Command," but Mr. Nice is trying to tell me that it was some kind of Joint Command that was issuing orders to me, and that is absolutely wrong. I only received orders from my own command, and that's the command of the Pristina Corps. This paper, this order I also received through a messenger who brought this to me from the commander of the Pristina Corps. If you'll recall, Mr. Robinson, from my vantage point as brigade commander, because I was not in Pristina then, I tried to explain why that's what it says there, Joint Command. I don't think this is a good ⁴²⁶⁰⁶ phrase either.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is in paragraph 5? Is that not an instruction to you? 5.1, the reference to 549th Motorised Brigade.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully agree. This is an order to my brigade. So there's nothing in dispute that I carried out this order, I mean. But, Mr. Robinson, please look at tab 359.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I have tab 359.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I carried out this order from tab 356, and afterwards, having carried out that order, I report back that I carried out the order, and I report back to the command of the Pristina Corps, as you can see. I'm not reporting back to any kind of Joint Command. And never will you --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That is clear, but it doesn't mean that you didn't get the order from the Joint Command. You got the order from a body called the Joint Command, but you reported back to the Pristina Corps. Would you agree with that?

A. I fully agree. But Joint Command, a Joint Command never existed as a command. That's what I've been trying to tell you. That a group of people, there were some politicians there who were sent from Belgrade to be there on the ground, the representatives of the MUP, and the representatives the military. However, in order for a body to be a command, it has to have many elements. First of all, it has to have a commander. There is no command without a commander. And then that commander would have signed this document.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. What you're really saying is that the ⁴²⁶⁰⁷ term "Joint Command" is a misnomer. It has wrongly described itself.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not a command. It was a coordination body. This is a most unfortunately chosen expression for a coordinating body.

And may I just take up a moment of your time to explain this again?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, very briefly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As briefly as I can. Had it said up here on the top of the page "Command of the Pristina Corps," then there is certainly nothing controversial as far as I'm concerned to carry out that order. I will carry out that order. But it is then controversial for the MUP units, because they will not carry out an order signed by the commander of the Pristina Corps because they have nothing to do with the Pristina Corps. That is why in the heading it says Joint Command, because then corresponds to the MUP units too. It's not the army that is commanding them or the Pristina Corps but some Joint Command, some fictitious Joint Command. It suits me too, I accept that as well, because I know that all of this, after all, came from my own corps, from the Pristina Corps. That's where coordination was carried out between the MUP and the army at corps level.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. You see, just to confirm, and I think this is a yes/no question maybe now, we don't have any order from the Pristina Corps of the same date telling you to do these things, do we? ⁴²⁶⁰⁸

A. Now, as far as that is concerned, we haven't got one here, or perhaps it's an oversight on my part. There are a few orders here of the Joint Command. I'm sure that in Belgrade, even documents that I have, there is an order to use the artillery and an order for the engineering units under the same number.

Q. Mr. Delic, if there had been -- I mean, at early stages in your evidence you said various things about orders coming from the Pristina command. Isn't the reality this: There never was an order of the 23rd of March covering the topics of this Joint Command document that came from the Pristina Corps. There never was such an order.

A. There is no identical order because there was no need for one, but I believe that there are orders to spell out specifically certain matters such as artillery, engineering, et cetera. The same number and then /1 or /2.

Q. We haven't seen. We've demanded -- we've requested all these documents over the years.

Can you help us, please, with who gave instructions to this coordinating body?

A. You see, I was never present at any coordination body meeting.

Q. Very well.

A. As far as 1998 is concerned, when the coordinating body was established, when a group of politicians came from Belgrade, there was the MUP staff to combat terrorism, and there was the Pristina Corps. These people who came from Belgrade came primarily for the purpose of various diplomatic missions that were in Kosovo at that time, also to talk to the ⁴²⁶⁰⁹ Albanians --

Q. I want answers to the questions. It's very simple: You obviously don't know who gave instructions to the coordinating body. Do you know to whom the coordinating body reported? Just yes or no.

A. The coordinating body? I explained it last time. As far as the army is concerned, the commander of the Pristina Corps, before he would go to attend a meeting of this coordinating body, would have to go and see General Simic, whose forward command post was also in Pristina, to report to him to say that he was going to this meeting. And after the meeting he would have to go back to General Simic to tell him whether there were any requests vis-a-vis the military and that he allowed him -- that he would then allow him to use the military.

The MUP probably had to contact their own minister too. As for the civilians, well, since they represented the government, they had to report to someone in the government.

As far as 1998 is concerned, let us be quite clear on that: At the level of Belgrade, a plan was elaborated to combat terrorism in five phases, and I think that that was discussed at top level.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... topic. Right.

JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just clarify one thing, please, Mr. Nice. Was the commander of the Pristina Corps a member of the coordinating body?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The commander of the Pristina Corps was.

MR. NICE: ⁴²⁶¹⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁶¹¹

Q. You see, you've referred to my earlier questions on this topic, and I'm going to come back to them because the reality is that you were in possession of a document apparently authorising you to conduct an attack, and you were in possession of that document, as it happens, a day before the declaration of the relevant state of emergency, war, or whatever it was that was required for the coordinated work of the MUP and the army; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You responded to that document as if it were an effective order.

A. Yes. It is done according to the rules, and it contains all the elements that an order should contain.

Q. And if we read just the last line of the order, we can see what it says. Paragraph 13, perhaps you'd like to follow it with me and we'll read it together: "Coordinated actions with MUP forces on preparations for combat operations shall be organised before and during combat operations.

"The Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija from the Pristina section shall command and control all forces during combat operations." So you had an effective order, and the order said the body giving you this order is in charge; correct?

A. I'm absolutely not denying that what you read out, what is written here, is exactly the way it has been written in this order. During combat operations, only my corps commander was in contact with me and was issuing commands to me, and I only reported back to him.

Q. And, Mr. Delic, I know you don't want to use the aide-memoire but ⁴²⁶¹² those who have got it will be able to see the picture very easily. Following that day, the 23rd of March, incidents involving the army occurred in the next few days, couple of days. They occurred in Djakovica, Orahovac, in Suva Reka, Bela Crkva, Celine, Velika Krusa, Landovica, and other places. And in the course of those operations, significant numbers of KLA or alleged KLA people were killed, a limited number of soldiers died - we'll look at the numbers if necessary - and I think either none -- no or almost no prisoners were taken, and that was responsive to this order. Is that summary correct?

A. You are now trying to single out from a single operation some particular points. This order pertains to a broader anti-terrorist operation, which can be viewed here on these maps too. Its objective was to break up groups of terrorist forces that were in the immediate vicinity of the border. That was the situation because a ground invasion was expected from Albania and Macedonia. These operations were first in this area, then in the area of Drenica, then in Crmljani, then in the area of Budakovo, and so on.

Mr. Nice, do you believe something that my war enemy wrote, General Clark, when he refers to these operations of ours directly? I wish you'd read that, because I agree with what Mr. Clark wrote, and I think it would be a good thing to have that heard. It's only a few sentences.

Q. A matter for re-examination, maybe. I'm going to press on with what I'm putting to you because I want you to have --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Chamber would like to hear it. ⁴²⁶¹³

MR. NICE: Very well.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us know what you're reading from.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the book "Modern Warfare" by Mr. Wesley Clark, that he wrote after the war, and it has to do with the war in Kosovo.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the original.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Read slowly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us how long the passage is.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's about three or four sentences.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with this operation and the operations that followed. It is page 285: "But we were fighting against a capable enemy. In the military field in Kosovo, the Serb military forces were attacking little by little large bases of the KLA in the mountains. Every day the organised resistance of the KLA was weaker and weaker, and that meant that the Serb forces were capable of changing their positions, dispersing, and hiding from our aircraft. After two weeks, most of their operations, large-scale operations, had been completed."

Mr. Clark was reported to by his officers: "Sir, those big bases that we targeted are simply no longer there."

On the basis of what I've read out just now, Mr. Clark says that within the scope of two weeks through our attacks that were aimed at large ⁴²⁶¹⁴ KLA bases, we managed to neutralise them.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Nice, do you have questions on that?

MR. NICE: No, not on that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Because it's time for the break. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.03 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.28 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Mr. Delic, pursuing the last topic but with a broader question and explaining the Prosecution's position on the Joint Command, the truth is this, is it not: That the army and the police were engaged in criminal conduct to their certain knowledge in 1998 and 1999 of which Racak is one example. That's my suggestion to you. Racak was outside your area of responsibility, just, or to a limited degree, but is not the position this; that you knew that the army and the police had been involved in an operation that simply went in to kill, not just to find KLA people and to safeguard villages.

A. What you are saying, Mr. Nice, is very insulting, both for my army and my police, but as you're allowed to speak in this way, all I can say is that all this is completely untrue. The army and the police are state organs --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I was going to -- I was going to intervene before you replied to let you know that the manner in which Mr. Nice puts his ⁴²⁶¹⁵ question is perfectly proper. That is the way it is done in the adversarial system. It's vigorous cross-examination. There's nothing wrong with that. So don't feel personally insulted, but you give your answers. But there is nothing improper in the manner in which the questions are being put. If there was, then we would stop him. I've seen cross-examination much more vigorous than that.

Yes. Proceed with the answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely everything Mr. Nice has said does not correspond to the truth and to reality. The army of Yugoslavia and the MUP units were in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999 fighting against terrorism, and as of March 1999 against the aggression of the NATO forces.

As for Racak, Racak is a put-up, fabricated situation used to exert pressure on our country and later on to justify the bombing.

MR. NICE:

Q. The recognition, the knowledge that you were all engaged in unlawful acts is reflected by the ability - and you've been a party to this - to say that there was no Joint Command from some date in 1998, when in fact, as we've seen from documents, it continued right through to 1999. And just to make it clear, you had to deny the existence of a Joint Command because you all knew that the Joint Command was the civil authority that was getting you to commit criminal acts.

A. That's your opinion, Mr. Nice. A Joint Command such as you see is certainly something that suits you in view of your indictment. However, it's on -- based on a very shaky foundation. I can say, speaking as a ⁴²⁶¹⁶ commander, that I received orders only from my command and his Chief of Staff, and I issued commands only to my own units. Nobody else from the outside could ever have issued an order, nor would I have carried it out. We know how the legislation and the rules of service deal with perpetration of crimes.

Q. And in very short order, what followed the Joint Command order that we've been looking at was a campaign to attack Kosovo Albanians and to kick them out of their country, and you all knew you were acting unlawfully, and you knew you were taking advantage of the expected NATO intervention to put into plan an order actually issued a day before that intervention started.

A. That's only your opinion, Mr. Nice. You are not a soldier, and you do not understand anything about tactics or strategy. Our operations - and you saw Mr. Clark speaking of them, and he never says they were aimed at the civilian population - our operations were aimed against the terrorist groups in the mountains and on the territory between Kosovo and Metohija.

After the aggression across the state border, they were supposed to attack our forces from behind. We did not have the strength to fight two adversaries at once. We had to defeat one adversary and neutralise it right away, and this was the KLA, and we did this.

Q. The last general point before we move to some new particular topic is this: You believed, didn't you, that a vast majority of the Kosovo Albanian population supported the KLA.

A. The number of Albanians supporting the KLA grew from 1998 onwards ⁴²⁶¹⁷ precisely because the KLA applied brutal force against the Albanians, and murder if they disagreed with their policies.

Q. Whatever the reason, I'm neither accepting that nor commenting on it, but whatever the reason, by 1999 you believed that a vast majority of the Kosovo Albanian population supported the KLA. Am I right in that?

A. No, you're not right in that. In my town of Prizren, there was probably a small part of the population supporting the KLA while the other inhabitants were loyal and doing their jobs. The number of supporters was greater in the villages than in the towns.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The question was whether you believed that a vast majority of the Kosovo Albanian population supported the KLA.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't believe it was a vast majority. A considerable percentage, yes, but not the vast majority. The vast majority were decent people who had nothing special against the state community and co-existence with the Serbs. There were many more of those who wished Kosovo to have a different status within Serbia, to be a republic within Serbia. Some wanted independence. But the number of those who wanted war was far, far less.

MR. NICE:

Q. You see, one proposition I want you to deal with is this: Is it the case that the army and the MUP felt themselves to be an occupying force in essentially now an alien territory and that's why they behaved in the criminally extreme way that they did? That's the proposition for you to answer, please.

A. I'll be happy to answer your question, but you should know that ⁴²⁶¹⁸ the whole world is listening to this. The army and the police cannot be an occupying force on their own territory. Even today Kosovo and Metohija is part of the Republic of Serbia.

Q. You didn't attend -- I don't criticise you for this: You didn't attend to the way I carefully expressed the question, which was that they felt themselves to be. It's as if they were, not dealing with the legal position one way or the other. If you don't want to answer the question, we'll move on to the next topic.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you had indicated that you would complete your cross-examination to the extent that you can --

MR. NICE: Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: -- by the first break. What is your new assessment?

MR. NICE: The end of the second break. I'm sorry, but time has been taken and there's a great deal to cover. Your Honours, can I press on in any event?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. NICE:

Q. The --

A. I wish -- I wish to answer your question, the question you put. I was born in Kosovo and Metohija among Albanians, Turks, and others, and I had many good friends among these people. Neither I nor any other soldier felt we were on foreign land. We felt we were on our land, which is why we defended it very persistently from all those attacking it, whether they were terrorists or the NATO pact. ⁴²⁶¹⁹

Q. I want you now, please, to look at a series of clips in evidence - we may get through all of them, we may only get through some - that show the passage of Kosovo Albanians out of Kosovo.

[Videotape played] "Under the symbols of their nationalism, the Serbian authorities pushed the Albanian population of Kosovo into exile. By now the refugees have been stripped of any document that says who they are. Only their despair is left as a mark of common identity.

"This is no haphazard flow of people. There is a grim logic to what is going on. When you check where these refugees are coming from, you can see that Kosovo is being cleansed, ethnically cleansed, village by village, hour after hour."

[Videotape played] "We have reached a point when the figures become almost meaningless. It's enough to say that once they open the gates on the other side you wait for a gap in the influx in vain. Those who come across now have been on the move for days inside Kosovo. They're desperate and it shows. Albania's capacity to absorb them is being stretched to the limit.

"Logistics is that we can't move people out of this area quick enough, so -- we haven't got the facilities to hold them here but we haven't got the capacity to move them, so we are struggling. "But this is a humanitarian crisis caused by political thuggery and savage militarism. The evidence is plain to see. "What we've seen and heard on this side of the border is grim ⁴²⁶²⁰ enough. Imagine then what it must be like inside Kosovo. Nothing less, it seems, than the planned, systematic destruction of a people. "Every family here has a story to tell, seen its share of horror. "Yes, we are leaving. I had to close the eyes of my children so they could not witness the execution.

"Are the Serbian paramilitary or the Serbian army, are they attacking civilians? Have you seen that?

"They are using everything in their arsenal to wipe out the whole area.

"From where we are you can see Serb soldiers escorting yet more ethnic Albanians across the border. They will be tomorrow's exiles. "George Alagiah, BBC News on the ..."

[Videotape played] "A sea of exiles wading through an ocean of mud, another 9.000 in the last 24 hours at this border crossing alone. In the confusion, this woman loses her three children. She frantically eyes the crowd, but there is no sign of them."

MR. NICE: This one is Macedonia.

[Videotape played] "Chaos on the Macedonian border today as 2.000 refugees from Kosovo circumvent the border checkpoint. They flooded in along the railway line, encouraged by Serbian police eager to see them leave the country. The tales they have to tell are of elemental terror. Some have seen friends and relatives killed, others have lost their husbands or wives." ⁴²⁶²¹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not heard a single word of interpretation. I think the witness understood nothing of what was shown here. I wonder whether he has received the transcript in the Serbian language or what.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have received nothing, and I have not understood a single word of all this. I don't know what Mr. Nice intends to ask me.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought it was being translated.

MR. NICE: So did I. Your Honour, what I will do, if we can just play a little bit of this one at the Pristina railway station.

[Videotape played] "Kosovo's capital Pristina is being drained of its people and its identity."

MR. NICE: Pause there. We don't know what the technical problem is.

Q. What you've been looking at, and I'm sorry you haven't had the benefit of sound, is some of the evidence of Kosovo Albanians leaving Kosovo via both Albanian gateways and Macedonian, and the last bit is of them leaving the Pristina railway station. In the second to last clip, we saw and there was reference to VJ soldiers escorting them out. Can you help us, please: Has there been any inquiry within the VJ of any soldier or any commander committing an offence by encouraging or forcing people out of Kosovo? ⁴²⁶²²

A. What you have shown here is not in dispute, the fact that Albanians left Kosovo. What is at issue is their motive. I have already said that I had dozens of cases of soldiers who did not act in a legal way towards the refugees. And I showed here through some tabs - I can find them again if necessary - and the document that shows that they were court-martialed. There were ten, 15, 20 of them. They were sent to a military court, and they all --

Q. Apart from those ten, 15 which we haven't had a chance yet ourselves to investigate further, but apart from those, the question is specific: Have there been any charged with offences in relation to forcing people out of Kosovo?

A. No unit of mine was ever assigned such a task, and therefore could not have carried out such a task. You are showing soldiers escorting civilians.

Q. Have any soldiers ever been investigated for or charged with offences of either forcing Kosovo Albanians out or destroying their personal documents or their car number plates at the borders? Has there been any such inquiry ever?

A. The soldiers never did that. They did not need to have access to the documents of the Kosovo Albanians. The soldiers were held responsible for unseemly behaviour and for the confiscation of either vehicles or money from the Kosovo Albanians.

In my unit, there were such soldiers, and I know there were such soldiers in other units as well. This documentation can be obtained from the court. There are probably several dozen such cases, maybe even more ⁴²⁶²³ than that.

General Gojovic can speak of that because he has the entire documentation. I can speak only about my own men.

Q. And -- very well.

JUDGE BONOMY: Did you say, Mr. Nice, each of these video clips were already part of the evidence?

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.

JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful if later I could have the tab numbers of each of them.

MR. NICE: I haven't got them to hand.

MR. KAY: Exhibit 14 onwards, Spargo.

MR. NICE: A short exercise -- I hope short, but absolutely essential. In binder 5, starting at tab 361.

Your Honours, this relates to -- this is one of the areas where we have got translations for the documents of the kind I was mentioning before the Court sat this morning.

Q. If we look, please, at tab 361, which is your statement prepared in 2002 in relation to Bela Crkva. We see you assert that you had issued a decision based on earlier intelligence not to include Bela Crkva in the territory that needed to be examined since you assess that there were no terrorists there.

Can you tell us what your intelligence was?

A. You should know that in the village of Bela Crkva, on the asphalt road from Zrze towards Orahovac there was a police checkpoint. It was right there, and this is information coming from the police. ⁴²⁶²⁴ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁶²⁵

Q. Very well. That's your -- that's your --

A. There was one checkpoint in the village of Zrze and one here.

Q. Now, we then -- in the last paragraph, the second paragraph, you say: "At the time I had no information of any crimes allegedly committed ... When I learnt about it in 2000 ..." Is that an assertion that that's the first time you learnt about these alleged crimes?

A. Yes.

Q. The indictment against this accused and others being issued in 1999, you didn't read it, it was never broadcast? It was a public indictment. Is that what you're saying?

A. What I have written here is quite true. In the middle of 2000, we were summoned by the commander of the 3rd Army, General Pavkovic, who distributed to us certain sheets of paper on which were parts of the indictment.

Q. And we see in your statement that you arrived at the village at 5.10.

So can we now go to 362, the statement of Vukovic. He explains -- apart from the -- well, the only points I might like to take, but he explains that he arrived there on the 25th of March. It's the bottom of the English page, four paragraphs down. On the 25th of March, he explains his movement. He left the village of Zrze, waited by the silo for the unit from Prizren to pass, and he explains, over the page in the English, that combat group 2 passed the village at 0500 to 5.30, and then he then says: "I did not notice any civilians and no fighting took place in the village. At approximately 0700 hours -" says the English - "we began to ⁴²⁶²⁶ search the terrain." I think the word used is "pretres." What do you understand by the meaning of the word "pretres"? Explain it. What sort of search was to be done?

A. A search of the terrain, pretres, is when a unit spreads out into a combat disposition. The squads and platoons develop in their proper way. Companies have a different way of spreading out. And then when the soldiers start moving from a certain line, searching the terrain they are crossing. This is a search which might be the search of a forest or something else. The men are eight to ten metres away from each other.

Q. He also says he first heard of these alleged offences in 2001. If we go to tab 3 -- tab 363, the statement of -- Janos Sel. His assignment was given to him as described in the first paragraph. He starts a march, he says, at 0200 hours, but he says because of a problem with vehicles, didn't arrive at Bela Crkva until 0530. So his arrival coincides broadly with yours and with Vukovic's; correct?

A. He probably arrived in Bella Crkva a little later.

Q. He again says he never heard of the allegations before. Tab 364, we have Feta Elifat. Probably what, a Roma, is he, or was he?

A. No. He's not a Roma. Feta Elifat is a Gorani.

Q. Thank you.

A. That is a special ethnic group living to the south-east of Prizren.

Q. He says he passed through the village of Bela Crkva in a convoy of motor vehicles at about 5.30, and he then says, "I didn't meet any ⁴²⁶²⁷ civilians."

If we look at the next tab, 365, this is Oliver Ilijevski. Incidentally, could you just read out in the second sentence -- sorry, the second paragraph the very first sentence for us, please, and have the translation from the interpreters.

A. "In order to carry out this assignment, the platoon had to pass on the 25th of March, 1999, through the village of Bela Crkva and by 6.00 take up positions along a one-kilometre stretch of the blockade line south-east of the village towards the village of Celine." Shall I go on?

Q. Looks to me as though like we've got the wrong translation because that didn't match what I have here particularly, and yet -- well, I'll have to deal with --

JUDGE BONOMY: It's the same as the one I have, I think.

MR. NICE: I've got something that says -- yes. I've got something that speaks of the period 25th to 28th of March, but it says participated with a rifle platoon.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's the paragraph before.

MR. NICE: So sorry. I'm grateful to Your Honour.

Q. Could you read out the previous sentence, "U vremenu od..." et cetera.

A. You asked for the second paragraph, which is why I read it. "In the period from the 25th to the 28th of March 1999, I participated with a rifle platoon in blocking off and searching the terrain and destroying Siptar terrorist forces on the axis of the villages of Bela Crkva, Celine, Randubrava, Donje Retimlje, Neprebiste." ⁴²⁶²⁸

Q. Does the term used there for rifle platoon describe a platoon that's going to be shooting or does it describe simply the way the platoon is armed?

A. That describes the kind of weapons they had. There are artillery platoons, mortar platoons, depending on the kind of unit they're in and the kind of weapons they have. In an infantry company and a motorised company, there are rifle platoons and there used to be hand-held rocket launcher platoon, and so on and so forth.

Q. You describe -- not you, he describes setting out from Zub at about 0130, leaving the village of Zrze and waiting by the silo and arriving at about 0500. So again, everybody arrives at Bela Crkva together.

And the last statement we have is from Zivkovic at tab 366. I should have said the previous one also said he saw no civilians. And then halfway down the third paragraph, which is the substantial paragraph, he says this: "We set out at around 0130 on the 25th ... Outside the village of Bela Crkva we waited for our unit to pass, headed for Prizren towards Orahovac. I received information from the -- that the PJP had already entered the village of Bela Crkva and that there were no STS in the village."

Well, that's different from the intelligence you set out in your statement. You say it was the local police at the roadblock; is that right?

A. That's not different. It's exactly the same as what I said.

Q. Very well. ⁴²⁶²⁹

A. It's exactly the same. He says that he received information that there were no Siptar terrorist forces, and I said the same thing, that all our information and intelligence told us that there were no terrorist forces over there.

Q. Now, -- and then he's -- he explains they drove through at 5.00 and 6.00, "set up our positions at the assigned blockade. There was no fighting, and I did not see any residents." And then he says: "In accordance with my assignment..." and this translator has interpreted the same word as combing the terrain, but it's the same word, I think, and so on.

So if we look at this collection of statements, they have all parts of the relevant units arriving at Bela Crkva at the same time, do they not?

A. Well, we can see that they arrived between 5.00 and 5.30.

Q. And is the reason that they all arrive there, contrary to what you've told us, that this was an operation to attack there, come what may?

A. Well, what you're saying now has absolutely nothing to do with what I said a moment ago. All these statements are by people from the same unit. It's the same unit. It is combat unit 2 coming from Djakovica. But what they say here is this: They say that in some of the tabs that you mentioned here that they set out at such-and-such a time, but that because of the danger of bombing they drove with wartime lights. You know what that means: They were moving slowly, with distance between each of the units.

Q. Very well. We know that you have with you and have produced no ⁴²⁶³⁰ documents, written documents, coming from those days from your subordinate units or from yourself setting out what happened, apart from the war diary.

May we remind the Judges by having it placed on the overhead projector what that shows.

A. Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, I don't want it to seem as if what you said was true. It does not correspond to the truth, because I would like to turn you back once again to the tab and tell you that there are four relevant documents here that we're dealing with, four relevant documents, beginning with tab 356 --

Q. We looked at those --

A. -- and concluding with -- yes. Well, if you have you can't then say that there are no relevant documents from the relevant period of time. The key documents from the relevant period of time are tabs 356 to 359 inclusive. And you cannot deny that at all or present something different to the Trial Chamber saying that there were just documents that were compiled later on.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... for the 23rd and the 30th. We're now going to look at the only contemporary entry we have, please, with Mr. Nort's assistance, in the document that's described war diary. If you hand it to me, I'll show you exactly what we want to look at.

Can I have it, Mr. Nort? Thank you very much. And I'll just show you this is the page. There.

Q. This page shows the only entries for the 24th and the 25th. 24th ⁴²⁶³¹ at the top, 25th at the bottom. And then over the page for the rest of the 25th.

No reference to Bela Crkva, I think.

A. Bela Crkva. Well, from the aspects of performing the overall assignment, Bela Crkva is immaterial, because the assignment is titled "Blockade and breakdown of Siptar terrorist forces in the region of Orahovac, Suva Reka, and Velika Krusa." Bela Crkva is just one of some 20 villages which exist in that region, so why should a specific mention be made of Bela Crkva?

Q. If the Trial Chamber finds in due course that over 50 people were executed on that occasion in Bela Crkva by Serb forces, there is no document of the 25th of March or even of the 26th, -7th, -8th, or -9th that tells us in detail what your sub-units were doing at the time, is there?

A. My sub-units, subordinated units and subordinated commanders, reported to me throughout about the movement of their troops. Therefore, throughout this time when I was there, I can guarantee fully for the conduct and behaviour of my units and of my officers too.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, I've gone through that exercise -- oh, there's one other question.

Q. The statements that we've looked at show each statement-maker saying for one reason or another there were no civilians there. If, and it's going to be for the Chamber to decide in due course, there were civilians there and they were killed, can you point us to what steps were taken, as revealed in these statements, to identify and safeguard ⁴²⁶³² civilians, by reference to these statements?

A. What it says in those statements is completely accurate. In the statements, therefore, it says that they never saw any civilians anywhere, which does not mean that those civilians were not perhaps in their houses. But the civilians weren't out on the streets or in the street, and they weren't in the yards either. So they weren't readily visible. They couldn't have been seen.

Q. Does any of the statements which all assert that there was simply no civilians there so that anybody who would be there would be, as it were, KLA, I suppose, but does any of the statements reveal what, if anything, was done to safeguard the civilians?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice is drawing conclusions that where it says there were no civilians would imply that they were all in the KLA. I really don't understand the logics of that or putting questions in that way. That is not what is being suggested by these statements, that civilians, since they were not there, they were in the KLA.

MR. NICE: In which case, if that's the accused's objection, I'll ask the witness this question:

Q. Do you take it from these reports of your subordinate officers and from your own expression of opinion that the village was simply empty, completely empty? ⁴²⁶³³

A. No. I have no knowledge of that nature, and so I cannot claim that. All I can claim is that at the time our units passed through there, and when I passed through there, on the streets and in the yards there were no civilians. They were not seen.

Q. In the course of this operation ordered by the Joint Command order of the 23rd and reported on by you on the 30th, what prisoners were taken?

A. It says that in tab 369, I think.

Q. How many?

A. Or 359, I'm not quite sure. Well, take a look, Mr. Nice. It says so there.

Q. How many? You were there. You've told us about your memory. How many?

A. I'm reading what it says in tab 359. There were no prisoners taken.

Q. Thank you. How can it be in a well-ordered operation with your force at full stretch, in cooperation with the MUP, in areas where there were apparently no civilians on site that there were no prisoners taken at all?

A. Well, you should have taken a look at the tabs or, rather, the four maps which explain the operations day by day, which means that sometime between the 26th and 27th, during the night, the terrorists pulled out along the axis between the village of Studencani and the village of Dobrodeljane towards Pagarusa, because the combat group 5 and combat group 6 had failed to link up. That means this: One worked from the Suva Reka axis and the other from the Orahovac direction and before ⁴²⁶³⁴ they managed to cut through the Suva Reka-Orahovac road, to cut across the road, the bulk of the terrorist forces pulled out with it a part of the inhabitants towards the Dobrodeljane village. Had we managed to close off that circle, there would no doubt have been prisoners too. And now the next point: In some specific moments - this happened in 1998 too - those who threw down their arms, laid down their arms and took off their uniforms under which they had civilian clothing turned into civilians by those acts.

Q. And were some of these killed? We know of some. The people referred to escaping to the riverbed in document 359 who had thrown down their arms at the last minute and so on. But how many people were killed altogether, do you say, in those six or seven days between the 23rd and the 30th in your area of operation? How many were killed?

A. We're not talking about killed people, not five or six days, because this activity went on intensively from the 25th right up to the and inclusive with the 27th. On the 28th, there was less fighting and about 85 were killed. That is our assessment, that about 85 persons or, rather, terrorists were killed.

Q. See, I'm going to suggest to you that these documents you've produced, these statements produced in response to Pavkovic and in organisation with the committee of experts or whatever the expert committee, are prepared or were prepared actively to hide the truth, and that's why we've got these statements and we haven't got supporting documents dated the 24th, the 25th, the 26th, the 27th, the 28th, and the 29th, because such documents would, if they still exist, reveal a ⁴²⁶³⁵ different story.

A. Mr. Nice, those documents exist in your head alone. Here you're being presented with all the relevant documents and you quite simply are looking for something to suit your purposes which does not exist. And this has nothing do with Pavkovic and the commission that you're talking about in the way you're talking about it, which underestimates and undermines the work of some 40 persons of high rank, had quite a different goal. It had as its goal to ensure the relevant documents precisely for this Prosecution. And the people from that commission, when they hear how you are assessing their work, will take a very negative position towards that attitude.

Q. When Prime Minister Tadic tied -- wound up that commission, he spoke of the possibility of its having been engaged in illegal activities, didn't he?

A. No. He couldn't have concluded anything like that. They're all serious men, professionals. But he interrupted work on finding the relevant documents which was requested by the Prosecution. After that, there was nobody there to work on the documents requested by you.

Q. And this commission, apart from being set up by Pavkovic, now indicted, also included, for example, General Gvero, indicted for Srebrenica, didn't it?

A. Well, I think General Gvero was just an associate in that commission, because it had several retired generals on it too.

MR. NICE: Private session for two minutes, if Your Honours please. ⁴²⁶³⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴²⁶³⁷

(redacted)

[Open session]

MR. NICE:

Q. The commission was known as the Anti-Hague Lobby, wasn't it, or by such terms?

A. That term was probably used by Tadic to justify the disbanding of that commission, and since that commission was let go, everybody only had harm from that.

Q. Mr. Tadic now holding the position of?

A. Yes.

Q. Which position does he hold now?

A. He is now President of Serbia.

Q. Thank you. Can we just play one, I think it is, that I want you particularly to consider.

[Videotape played] "The Macedonian authorities are overwhelmed but are doing the best they can. Appealing to the outside world for help and anxious about the impact of all of this on their own country. For these Kosovo Albanians, the immediate danger may be over. They have escaped with their lives but little else. Some of have lost relatives and all have lost homes. The question now is where will they go and will they ever be able to return. Nicholas Witchell, BBC News." ⁴²⁶³⁸ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁶³⁹

MR. NICE:

Q. Now, those pictures are just some of the many that show the refugees. You produced some evidence to show people saying that they'd been forced out by the NATO bombing. The truth is, and you know this, Mr. Delic, that you and the police in your area were responsible for driving people out. Am I not right?

A. You're absolutely not right. The scenario for the refugees was devised in some other place. I know that these unfortunate people that we can see on these images that suffered great traumas have nothing to do whatsoever with that scenario. However, can we read something that comes from the United Nations and linked to the refugees?

MR. NICE: Your Honour --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we do that? Something from NATO, the NATO pact referring to refugees. Direct evidence as to who organised the refugees. Are you ready to hear that, Mr. Nice?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, General.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure you all know of Noam Chomsky, the well-known analyst, and this is his book. New Militaristic Humanism, is its title, The Kosovo Lesson. Page 30: "The Italian Prime Minister Massimo D'Alema visited Washington on the 5th of March and cautioned Clinton that should Milosevic not capitulate immediately, the result could be 3 to 400.000 refugees crossing into Albania." And he was afraid that they might cross into Italy too. Clinton addressed the council -- counsellor for security, Sandy Berger, who said that in that case NATO would continue its bombing, with even more ⁴²⁶⁴⁰ terrible consequences. The president of the intelligence committee of the White House, Goss Porter, informed the media and said that our intelligence service is warning us and has been for months and days before the bombing that there will be a true explosion of refugees exceeding a number of 250.000, which was expected even during the course of last year."

And then the next paragraph: "Back in 1992, European observers in Macedonia forecast a mass influx of refugees of ethnic Albanians if the conflicts expand to Kosovo," and therefore there are reports by the OSCE to that effect which are to be found or, rather, which are quoted at the end of the book.

And then let me just read out something else, what Clark wrote about all this at his meeting with Mrs. Albright, because he had two meetings with her in fact.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, I respectfully invite the Court to allow me to press on with questioning as the, as it were, elective answers of the accused -- the witness is one of the reasons why we are taking a long time, but it's up to the Court. And I'm anxious to conclude.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just a question of truth, Mr. Nice. And the truth, Mr. Nice, cannot be stopped.

MR. NICE: Mr. Nort --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness did not understand that you were in fact giving him permission to read out what he wanted to read.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Conclude the reading.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is taken from the book by ⁴²⁶⁴¹ Mr. Clark. It is page 162. He is talking about Rambouillet and the fact that negotiations in Rambouillet fell through, and he says this created conditions for the beginning of the bombing, says Wesley Clark, on 175, fifth page of his book, Warfare. And on page 162 from that same book, in the summer of 1998, he says, that at a meeting -- he tells Mrs. Albright at a meeting, "We must somehow fit into the situation in Serbia the negotiations there and throw in some democracy into Belgrade, into the discussion there."

And then on page 163, Mr. Clark explains to Jim Steinberg, a White House advisor, says that the problem isn't in Kosovo, in fact the problem is in Belgrade. And when Steinberg comments, he says, "Wes, I hear what you're saying but we don't have the levers to convince Milosevic to accept more democracy in Belgrade." And Clark's answer to this is the following: "We must have, Jim. We are considering bombing and we can see we can make some positive steps forward, positive incentives." Now, on the 6th of March, that is to say 18 days before the bombing, Clark explains to Albright the scenario of the NATO strike before any refugees at all happened and before any humanitarian catastrophe happened. That is on page 205 and 206. Albright says: "If we start with the strikes, will the Serbs attack the population?" she says. Clark answers: "Almost certainly they will attack the civilian population. We must expect that they will do so." Albright: "What should we do? How can we prevent their attacks on civilians?" Clark: "We cannot prevent that. Despite our best efforts, the Serbs will attack the civilians and that will be a race between our airstrikes and the harm we do to them and ⁴²⁶⁴² what they can do on the ground themselves. In the long-term, they will be the winners of that race. Therefore, what should we do?" Clark says, "We must strengthen our power. We must give more. We must be stronger than everything that they have but it will not be pleasant." His entire book refutes the subject and conclusion of a humanitarian catastrophe. The portion I read out, although he talks about attacks on civilians, in fact confirms the fact that the army set out at the beginning of the bombing and launched an attack on the bases. And there is another meeting with Albright -- may I have the Court's indulgence?

MR. NICE: I must say the Court is allowing the witness --

JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard enough.

MR. NICE: -- to decide on the evidence and we -- well, it's matter for the Court.

Q. Would you be good enough, please, then in light of what you've said, to take and comment on two excerpts. First from "As Seen, As Told" page 112. I'll read it out to you in English on the screen. And it says -- left-hand side, thank you. "Extortion and harassment on buses and trains and at the border." And this again, Mr. Delic, is not the live witnesses who have come to this Court, although there have been live witnesses who have dealt with this issue as well, this is OSCE's analysis of their evidence.

"Expulsion by train or bus provided another opportunity to extort money from Kosovo Albanians, who had to buy tickets at inflated prices and pay in Deutschmarks for the journey out of Kosovo. Payment had to be made ⁴²⁶⁴³ to the ticket controller, driver, or accompanying police or VJ, or to a combination of these.

"Sometimes Kosovo Albanians were taken off buses and threatened or beaten and had to pay to be allowed to get back on. Others had to pay in order to be allowed simply to pass checkpoints. Sometimes it was also necessary to pay police to cross the border, especially if the internally displaced persons didn't have an identification. One 41-year-old man, who took the train from Pristina to Djeneral Jankovic on the 31st of March, where he got off the train, had like many others to walk along the railway tracks to the border." It deals with him paying 200 Deutschmarks. Then the next paragraph: "The majority of refugee statements indicate that documents, as well as money and valuables, were routinely taken from Kosovo Albanians by police, VJ, or Serbian border police, either en route to the border or at the border, whether with Albania or the former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia. This practice was sufficiently widespread as to constitute a clear pattern. Other refugees left their documents in their houses because they had to leave so suddenly or had them burned..."

I'll read you another short passage from another analysis which puts a slightly different interpretation on part of that, but tell me, was there perhaps from your civilian joint command an instruction to kick the Kosovo Albanians out and to keep them out by taking away their identifications?

A. As for what you read earlier on I'm not saying that it's not written in that book, but there was no pattern of the kind you described. ⁴²⁶⁴⁴ You mentioned some kind of civilian command too. First of all, that is illogical. There was no civilian command, and a civilian command does not command the army. There was not a single order that would negatively affect the civilian population. Actually, there was a large number of orders seeking the protection of the civilian population and making it possible for them to go where they wanted to.

Q. A similar passage from "Under Orders" but with a slightly different interpretation. It needs to be before you for your comment. And again we've had live evidence on this from witnesses, but this is how "Under Orders" puts it. At the bottom of the left hand page: "The widespread confiscation of identity documents and car licence plates by Serbian police and border guards from departing Kosovar Albanian refugees also points to the systematic nature of the expulsions. Hundreds of refugees arrived in Albania spoke of being forced to hand over ID cards, passports, and birth certificates, which were often torn up in front of them, before they were permitted to cross the border. Those who crossed the border by car were given screwdrivers and ordered to remove the licence plates from their vehicles."

But then this: "By contrast, refugees who were expelled to Macedonia generally were permitted to retain their documents, even after having them inspected by Serbian police officers. (As noted in the section discussing explanations for the 'ethnic cleansing,' the difference in approach may reflect an expectation that those sent to Albania could be more easily characterised as Albanians from Albania and blocked from returning, whereas -" top of the next page - "Macedonia was unlikely to ⁴²⁶⁴⁵ tolerate the permanent residence of large numbers of Albanians..." Now, your area had borders with both Albania and Macedonia. If the Chamber finds on the evidence available that there was a difference in the conduct of, it says here police but evidence covers both police and military, if it finds that there was a difference in the conduct of those two different borders, can you explain it for us?

A. I have already explained that only in one area at one border crossing point this happened, this that you've been describing. I'm not trying to say that in other places other unlawful things did not happen, that is to say that money was taken away and things like that. However, as for the taking away of documents, that took place only in Vrbnica. Whoever went to Montenegro, whoever crossed at Cafa Prusit and whoever went to Macedonia kept their documents. So this was isolated behaviour on the part of a group of irresponsible people. I have already explained this. I saw it myself once when I came with the TV crew to the Vrbnica border crossing, and I informed their chief of that or, rather, I sought an explanation. He was surprised, too, and this activity ceased. This was a very ugly thing, and these journalists who were with me recorded that. However, that was only in that part of the territory. So it cannot be called a pattern. Of course that is unlawful behaviour on the part of border policemen from that particular border crossing point, and of course that was not under my control.

Q. Finally, for the purposes of today, can you name the people who wrote the war diary? I don't know if the Court was provided with copies of it. We very helpfully were, as requested, but I don't know if the ⁴²⁶⁴⁶ Court's seen copies of it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we haven't seen it.

MR. NICE: Very well.

Q. Can you name the scribes in this book? And you can of course have it before you. Mr. Nort will bring it to you.

MR. NICE: Mr. Nort, the red backed -- red-spined document down there. Just hand it to the witness, please.

Q. The format of the book is the first few pages are in one format, and then quite rapidly the format changes, and then from a later page it becomes a consistent apparently single hand. Can you name for me, please, the scribes.

A. The signatures of all these persons are here. At the beginning it is Major Milomir Jevtic. Then --

Q. Major Milomir Jevdic?

A. Jevtic. Major Milomir Jevtic. Then Captain First Class Hristo Ivanovski. Then Major Suljok Imre. Then Captain First Class Milivoje Djordjevic. He wrote quite a bit of this. Then Jevtic again. So it's primarily these two persons, Jevtic and Djordjevic. And some sections were written by these other persons I referred to. And yet another officer is here, Major Nikola Guzina.

Q. Anybody else?

A. That's most of them. I don't know if I omitted someone. I didn't manage to look through all the pages perhaps.

Q. There is one last question. If the Chamber finds in due course that 200 bodies from Meja were dug up and transported to Batajnica in ⁴²⁶⁴⁷ Serbia, can you explain why that should have happened?

A. First of all, I don't see what I have to do with Meja at all as a territory.

Q. Technically outside your area, but I think you had units in the area, didn't you?

A. Yes. They were rather close by, but they were at the state border.

Q. You've told us a great deal about other places. You've offered opinions about Racak, which is outside your area. My question remains: From all your knowledge of the army and police in your immediate and immediately adjoining area where your troops were indeed working, if 200 bodies from Meja were dug up and taken to Batajnica, can you explain why?

A. I certainly cannot explain that. I can only say that it is a very strange fact that Batajnica was discovered in 2002. That is something that surprises me. Had it been discovered in 2000 or 2001, it would have been somewhat clearer to me.

In Kosovo, bodies are being dug up. Would you like me to show you about a place that you asked me about the other day, Mr. Nice? To show you what a mass grave looks like.

Q. I've seen pictures of mass graves in these trials.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, with the reservation --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But one cemetery -- oh, all right.

MR. NICE: With the reservation I made this morning before the witness came in, that's all I wish to ask today.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice. ⁴²⁶⁴⁸ Mr. Milosevic, re-examination.

Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] General, I'm going to put a few questions to you. Not exactly in the same order that Mr. Nice did, but now towards the end he insisted on Bela Crkva a lot, and yesterday we saw a book "As Seen, As Told," and Mr. Nice referred to a great many sources and then quoted an event as it was described in that book.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could the usher please place this book on the ELMO with the description of the event in Bela Crkva, the one that we had the opportunity of reading yesterday. I haven't got the book.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but we'll need to find the page.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the description of what happened. I think that Mr. Nice said that it's 280, but I am not sure. Is it 278? I wrote it down later.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Nice. Microphone, please for Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: 277, I think. I'll just check it. That's what the aide-memoire would suggest. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, before that, mentioned a great many sources, showed footnotes in relation to the description of this event. Can we now read out what it says here? We can only read it from the projector. I haven't got the book.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it you want the witness to read, and to what end? ⁴²⁶⁴⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wanted to have something read out, what I remember from yesterday, that their clothes were taken off and then they were put back on and they were taken to the stream and then they were shot at. I've just received the book now. I have to see where this exact passage is.

JUDGE BONOMY: The second column there is a passage that begins, "Fifty-five men were separated ..."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes. I'll omit that. Separated. All of that preceded it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The next paragraph reads as follows: "The men were told [In English] to dress and face the water. With their backs to the police, they were told to walk into the water. They were shoulder to shoulder." [Interpretation] And then it says that they were shot at and that that is where they were executed. So this is what it says here. With their backs to the police, they were told to walk into the water. They were shoulder to shoulder, facing the water. And the police, as it says here, shot and killed them.

Mr. Nice even referred to Exhibit 168, a forensic analysis that I received yesterday. I didn't have time to look at all of this, but there's a very short one on page 15, a very brief excerpt concerning Bela Crkva. I'll read it.

"[In English] In the Bela Crkva case, from 30/6/99 to 3rd of July, 1999, a British -- British forensic team performed 54 post-mortem examinations concerning 42 identified victims and 12 unidentified ⁴²⁶⁵⁰ victims," et cetera.

[Interpretation] And so on, not to read out all of this information, except for the following: [Previous translation continues] ... "[In English] from 1 to 13. According to the forensic experts, the main part of the entry wounds was located to the front side of the trunk." [Interpretation] So the minimum that is referred to here, is it possible, General, what I read out to you from this book that they ordered them to turn their backs to these alleged executors, to kill them, and then according to this forensic finding of an English expert, forensic expert, their wounds are on the front of their bodies?

A. Any amateur would know that the entry wounds have to be on the side from where the gunshots came from.

Q. All right. So much for that. So much for these assertions contained in "As Seen, As Told."

Do you know how information was collected for this book and where this information came from, from whom?

A. When you read the book, you see many footnotes, many numbers. The information was collected from Albanians in Albania, Macedonia, from those who had left our country.

Q. Now, since Bela Crkva is there -- and both of these documents that I read out that are obviously contradictory are both Mr. Nice's documents, the forensic document and the other one that he quoted yesterday. Mr. Nice insisted that there had to be additional documents about this period concerning Bela Crkva. These are documents in tabs 356 to 359 inclusive, four tabs. Are they all from that time? Are they all ⁴²⁶⁵¹ contemporaneous?

A. They're all from that time, absolutely, from the 23rd, when the first order was received, all the way up to the 30th when the analysis was made.

Q. General, Mr. Nice mentioned these events, describing them as a campaign for expelling the Albanians. In these documents, can we see any element of anything that was done against civilians?

A. On the contrary. In every one of these documents there is a part that refers to the protection of civilians. There was no campaign. The section that I read out from Wesley Clark's book, as a matter of fact confirms what the army did, and that within the span of two weeks the major strongholds of the KLA were broken down.

Q. Professor Rakic told me just now that in "The Phoenix of Freedom," the book that the Albanians wrote, and also that list of KLA members, which is of course incomplete because they didn't manage to include all of their members in that book, they will probably deal with that later, from that point of view I certainly trust them. They will certainly do it later. And it contains dozens of names of KLA heroes. And in annex B or, rather, Schedule B, they are referred to as Albanian civilians who were killed in Bela Crkva. Does that correspond to what you've been saying or to what Mr. Nice has been claiming?

A. I have not read that book, but if people appear as civilians on a list of allegedly killed civilians and in another book on another hand they are proclaimed to be KLA heroes, that is self-explanatory.

Q. All right, General. Now, please answer the following question: I ⁴²⁶⁵² ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁶⁵³ assume that this analysis that you made on the 30th includes these days that are referred to in the analysis, that is to say from the 25th to the 29th. Is there a single detail in it -- you wrote this analysis on the 30th of March. Is there a single detail there that could indicate any activity, not to use the expression "campaign" that Mr. Nice used, that would be aimed against civilians?

A. Just like the initial document, the last document, too, the analysis analyses combat actions against the 124th Brigade of the KLA in the area of Retimlje, rather, its command was in the area of Retimlje. So practically this is a professional presentation of operations day-to-day.

Q. General, on the first page you have this. What I have quoted here is in your analysis: "The losses of the Serb -- of the Siptar terrorist forces, my assessment is that it's 85."

When you say Siptar terrorist forces and their losses, can we ever refer to them as civilians?

A. No, no. They are not civilians. They are people with weapons.

Q. Any one of them, even if they had weapons, was anyone executed or were they all killed in combat?

A. I have never heard of anyone being executed or that anyone could have been executed. In my opinion, it is inconceivable. A terrorist, even a terrorist, any man who discards weapons is no longer a fighter.

Q. All right. Excuse me. We are going to draw on this analysis of yours to clarify some other matters which obviously could not have been clear in relation to the Joint Command. Rather, tab 356, that document, it does say joint command, and the number is 455-63. Is that correct, ⁴²⁶⁵⁴ General?

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Now, your analysis that refers to that order of the Joint Command --

A. Yes.

Q. -- it reads as follows -- it is sent to the command of the Pristina Corps.

A. Yes.

Q. "In accordance with the order of the commander of the 549th Brigade and the order of the Pristina Corps number 455-63." So this order 455-63 on which it is written Joint Command, you refer to it as the order of the Pristina Corps command.

A. Yes. That's the way I've always referred to it, because I got it from a messenger from the Pristina Corps with other documents.

Q. All right. So for you this is not in dispute that this order that you got is from the Pristina Corps command and --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just direct us to the particular section in tab 356 to which you're referring.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 356 is the tab that says order of the Joint Command. It says Joint Command in the heading. And the number there is 455-63 in the upper left-hand corner. I hope you can see that. Then in tab 359, in response to that order, it says: "In accordance with the order of the Pristina Corps command, strictly confidential, number 455-63."

So General Delic refers to the order of the Pristina Corps command ⁴²⁶⁵⁵ with the same number. That's what I wanted to establish.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is that the order? Is that an order from the Pristina Corps for you?

A. For me there is no doubt that that is an order from the Pristina Corps.

Q. All right, General. In this analysis where you talk about all the operations of your unit, you had three soldiers killed and eight wounded, and that is what it says towards the end of the second page.

A. Yes. There were killed members of the MUP, but I don't know the exact number. Ranging between three and five, most probably.

Q. General, at that time, from the 25th until the 29th, were there any other documents that referred to this operation? You have an order, you have a decision on the map, and you have the analysis. You explained that for every movement of forces you have these three documents. The rules of service and regulations, do they envisage any other documents that were perhaps intentionally omitted here?

A. No, Mr. Milosevic. In these binders we have a tab which prescribes what kind of records have to be kept for every combat operation. There is a document here prescribing that it is precisely these three that have to be there. That is to say an order, decision, and analysis.

Q. The order is written, the decision is on the map, and finally you have the analysis.

A. Yes. ⁴²⁶⁵⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's time for the break. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, as I indicated, we will be adjourning at a quarter past one, and in order to ensure that we deal with any outstanding administrative matters, we'll stop hearing evidence at ten past.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please. The interpreter did not hear.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said this -- does this mean that I will be able to raise an administrative issue in those five minutes?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm not encouraging you, but if you wish, then you can.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, let's round off this issue of the Joint Command. Could you please put on the ELMO a document from one of these tabs that you brought along, but it's -- there's a muddle here. It's a diagram showing the chain of command. I assume you will be able to find out what tab number it is because my documents have got mixed up a bit.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please put it on the ELMO, and at the same time I ask that the witness be shown this document under number D299, and it's tab 144 MFI. It's only got an identification number because I assume it has not been translated, but the witness will have to ⁴²⁶⁵⁷ have it before him.

Very good.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, Mr. Nice, when cross-examining you about the Joint Command, said at one point that it was a kind of private club of this accused, and today he asked to whom this coordination body was responsible, this body entitled the Joint Command. I will ask you to look at this document I have just placed before you. It's a record. It's minutes. What does it say here? This is tab 628, this diagram showing the levels of command of the army of Yugoslavia. General, please look at this other document I've just given you.

A. I haven't received that document. These are minutes from a meeting of the operative inter-ministry staff for the suppression of terrorism held in Beli Dvor in Belgrade.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the date.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Would you please look in parallel who was present at this meeting and this diagram showing the levels of command of the army of Yugoslavia. Would you please read out who was present at the meeting or shall I ask questions of you?

In this diagram you have the president of the SR Yugoslavia. Above him is the Supreme Defence Council. So at this meeting, the chairperson was Slobodan Milosevic, and present were Milan Milutinovic, the president of the Republic of Serbia; is that correct?

A. Yes. ⁴²⁶⁵⁸

Q. He was a member of the Supreme Defence Council. Let's go down this diagram. Was the Chief of the General Staff present at the meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you find him?

A. Momcilo Perisic, Chief of the General Staff.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic and the witness, I sense you're going too fast for the interpreters. Observe a pause between question and answer.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you found the Chief of the General Staff?

A. Yes. The Chief of the General Staff, here is Colonel General Momcilo Perisic.

Q. Very well. So that's the first line of command in this diagram, and they attended the meeting; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. The next level is the army level; is that correct?

JUDGE BONOMY: Just a minute. Have we got the minute that you're referring to, minute of a meeting?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. It's Exhibit D299, tab 144. It's an exhibit that was produced here with General Stevanovic.

JUDGE BONOMY: 299 is not before us at the moment. It's an earlier witness, as you say, Stevanovic, so I certainly don't have my copy here. It's difficult to follow this without having the document.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, we'll put it on the ELMO so you can see what it says, and it can be interpreted by your ⁴²⁶⁵⁹ interpreters, because it has been marked for identification because it has not been translated yet. However, it should have been a long time ago because General Stevanovic testified before this witness.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So according to the diagram showing the command, here is the president of the republic, the commander of the General Staff, and the commander of the 3rd Army.

A. Yes, Dusan Samardzic, colonel.

Q. Is that the next level?

A. Yes.

Q. Below that level of command, what is the next level of command?

A. It's the corps level.

Q. Is the corps commander there?

A. Lieutenant Colonel General Nebojsa Pavkovic was there.

Q. Yes, Pavkovic, Samardzic, Perisic, and I were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any interruption here in the chain of command with respect to those attending the meeting?

A. This is the full chain of command from the top down to corps level.

Q. Down to corps level. Very well. I assume you are familiar with the way the Ministry of the Interior is organised. Would you please take a look and tell us, and we'll start from the bottom this time, from the lowest level. The commander of the MUP staff was General Sreten Lukic in Kosovo? ⁴²⁶⁶⁰

A. Yes. And here he is.

Q. And superior to him was the chief of the public security sector, Lieutenant General Djordjevic. Was he present?

A. Yes.

Q. And superior to him was the minister of the interior, Vlatko Stojiljkovic. Was he there?

A. Yes, in line 4.

Q. And his superior, Milan Milutinovic, the president of the Republic of Serbia, was he present?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there a gap in the chain of command here with respect to the police?

A. No. Both as regards the police, also everybody from the chain command was here who was competent for the police.

Q. Very well. Tell me, now, was it possible as what is being challenged and disputed here is that someone was bypassed in the functioning of this coordination body, which was entitled the Joint Command. Could any of those present have been bypassed?

A. All those who were supposed to be present were present. All those who were supposed to be present when important decisions were made.

THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic's microphone is not on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It's back on again. It says here: "Opening the meeting, the president of SR Yugoslavia Slobodan Milosevic informed the members of the operative inter-sector staff for the suppression of terrorism on Kosovo ⁴²⁶⁶¹ and Metohija with the agenda and the order in which the participants would speak." Generals Pavkovic and Lukic, the president of the council of citizens of the Federal Assembly Milomir Minic, and then General Pavkovic was to put forward the proposals of the Joint Command. After that, the others would speak. And then the -- the general who was present on the territory spoke, General Nebojsa Pavkovic, the commander of the Pristina Corps. And everything that he said is noted down here. After that, on page 7, if you turn to page 7, you can see General Sreten Lukic. On page 8 we see that the president of the council of citizens of the Assembly, Minic, spoke. Further on, Pavkovic spoke again. Afterwards, on page 11, we can see that Perisic took the floor, followed by Milutinovic. Perisic said, among other things, on page 12, the second paragraph from the bottom, "We have to do everything in our power to convince the representatives the international community that we have not caused the crisis in Kosovo and Metohija but that the Albanian terrorists are the cause." That's what he says here. After that, the vice-president or the deputy Prime Minister of the federal government, Sainovic, spoke about the need to find a political solution.

And the conclusion is that the Joint Command and the coordination staff should continue operating. And on page 16, the conclusion underlined here is that it is our position that all ethnic communities living in Kosovo and Metohija should have representatives in the government bodies, and Kosovo and Metohija must preserve the ethnic make-up of its population. And then it goes on to say that the ⁴²⁶⁶² conclusions were adopted unanimously. The positions of Generals Pavkovic and Lukic, of the president of the Assembly Minic, were adopted. That the breadth of the border belt should be agreed on in the federal government. General, we have now skimmed through this document briefly. Bearing this document in mind, can one claim that the Joint Command which General Stevanovic described in the same way as you did as a kind of horizontal coordinating body, was it a body used to bypass the chain of command?

A. No way, no. I never experienced anything like this on the ground. All the chains of command were functioning according to the law, both in the army and the police.

Q. Very well. I hope we've dealt with this now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that question was leading. Avoid leading questions.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Delic, Mr. Nice said that this Joint Command was a private club of this accused. In view of these minutes, which is a very clear document showing who attended the meeting and what the content of the meeting was, can one accept such a statement?

A. Absolutely not.

Q. Very well. Let's proceed. Let's move on. At the beginning of his cross-examination, Mr. Nice showed maps starting from tab 430. These are the maps of different sections, as you know, and I will not dwell on this as long as Mr. Nice did. I will just ask the following: These maps were drawn up in 2002, the section maps, and do they contain the same ⁴²⁶⁶³ information as the maps from 1999 that you have before you?

A. Yes, except that they contain details day by day.

Q. Everything that is in these maps of 2002, can it also be seen on the original maps which were contemporaneous, drawn up in 1999?

A. Yes. From these additional maps you can see how the task was implemented, the task assigned to the units. And you can see this day by day, hour by hour, with many details.

Q. But it's precisely the same tasks -- task as the one defined in 1999, or is it different?

A. These are not these maps. I have the map here.

Q. But the task is the same?

A. Yes.

Q. The task entered into the maps of 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. Very well. Thank you. And to go back to this, there was always an order, a decision that was entered into the map, and an analysis?

A. Yes, that existed always. If a unit asked that something be solved, then additional documents were issued. The submission of intelligence information, a request by the command that an idea be presented, the approval of the idea, then an order and these three documents.

Q. Very well. Mr. Nice dwelt quite long on the issue of opening fire from a tank. General, what can one conclude from the fact that no one in a position lower than yours had the right, as it says in the order we were able to see here, no one in a position lower than yours had the right to ⁴²⁶⁶⁴ order the opening of fire from a tank?

A. Only the brigade commander could evaluate whether the target was relevant and to avoid losses among the civilian population or unnecessary destruction of buildings and facilities.

Q. So was this a measure of extreme caution in order to prevent unwanted side-effects?

A. Yes. I think that's why the brigade commanders almost always had to be out in the field with their unit, because they couldn't have issued such orders from their offices. They had to be present on the ground. They had to be shown something on the ground, and then they had to communicate by radio and only then could they issue such an order.

Q. Very well. So was this a measure introduced to avoid unwanted consequences?

A. Yes. This was a security measure.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I warned you about leading questions. "So was this a measure introduced to avoid unwanted consequences?" That's clearly leading.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, if an order is issued that no one below the rank or post of brigade commander could open fire, it's clear to everybody that this was a measure designed to avoid errors or unwanted consequences.

JUDGE BONOMY: Why ask the question?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Then why do you ask the question? You don't need the answer.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. ⁴²⁶⁶⁵

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, Mr. Nice asked you something about internally displaced persons. To the best of your knowledge, the army of Yugoslavia or members of the Ministry of the Interior, did they displace the Kosovo Albanians?

A. You mentioned internally displaced persons. By this I understand people who were within Kosovo and Metohija, who hadn't left. The army and the police never organised, regardless of the ethnic affiliation of these persons, anything like this. Most of the internally displaced persons were Albanians, but there were also many Serbs who in 1998 left all villages which were not safe and went to the towns, and they, too, were internally displaced persons.

At the end of 1998, the number of internally displaced persons was reduced, especially after the arrival of the OSCE, except in the Drenica area. There are some data shown here, but I think that this number could not have been greater than 40 or 50.000.

Q. Very well. Tell us briefly, what were the causes of the flight of the population from the villages, or this internal displacement as mentioned by Mr. Nice. What were the causes of this?

A. I have had occasion to see the population leave villages on many occasions before we arrived in the villages, and it was these -- these inhabitants were always accompanied by the KLA, KLA members.

Q. And what about the authorities? Did they take care of the internally displaced persons in your area of responsibility, for example? What can you tell us about that?

A. Well, I can tell you about that because I was present quite a ⁴²⁶⁶⁶ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴²⁶⁶⁷ number of times when the stage and operations against the terrorists had been completed, and there were different groups, population groups, sometimes several thousand, 10 to 20.000 people in one place sometimes. And the organs of local self-administration and self-government were involved in this to distribute food. Then you had the medical corps to see to the population before the population set out to return to its villages. And I was present on several occasions when things like this were done.

Q. All right. Fine, General. Now, my next question is this, it relates to assertions made by Mr. Nice about the truthfulness of at least certain elements from the K41 witness statements and K32 witness statements. And they were members of your unit were they not, General?

A. Yes.

Q. You explained to us, as far as I can remember, that in those events and in view of the distribution of events, they could have been -- the nearest they could have been to you was three kilometres?

A. Yes. When we are talking about Jeskovo village. Then you can see on the map where their unit was located and where my unit was located.

Q. All right. So you can see that. Right. Now, can the soldiers move around wherever they want when they are deployed somewhere? When they are in combat deployment could they be anywhere close to you or did they have to be in the locations that were prescribed to them?

A. No, in combat and combat order there was high combat discipline and each sold soldier was able to move along the axis provided for by the order issued. Otherwise, there could be fatalities caused by friendly ⁴²⁶⁶⁸ fire. So each person had their own position pinpointed in the combat order and deployment of troops.

Q. You told us something about the security organs in the brigade, General, did you not. Now, would a security organ in your brigade, for instance, in case you did something unlawful, would they take steps against you?

A. Yes. The security organs were independent of the command, even if they were attached to the brigade. There is a separate chain of command, their own security chain of command, and they would report to their superior officer, security officer, about all events taking place in the brigade, including the commander. And they would give -- provide the commander with sufficient information, intelligence, counter-intelligence, and so on and so forth, which could be of use to the commander in his decision-making process.

Q. Mr. Nice -- right. You've explained that to us, General. Thank you for that.

Now, Mr. Nice asked you a number of questions which had to do with the armed non-Siptar population, and you explained to us that they had the assignment of keeping watch over the village or guarding the village, the villages. Did they ever have any other assignment but to guard their villages?

A. No, never. In all these operations and actions, they would never appear because they were otherwise armed with weaker types of weapons, and they were elderly people too.

Q. So apart from the tasks they were given to stand watch over their ⁴²⁶⁶⁹ village, they could have no other assignments; is that right?

A. That's right. No other assignment, just to stand guard and watch over their village to prevent any terrorists from reaching them and to inflict casualties on them.

Q. All right. Thank you. Now, Mr. Nice also mentioned the Dulje pass, and you mentioned it in another context as well yourself, and the fighting in the Mount Caranja [phoen] and Mount Jezerska area. Tell us what the importance of the Dulje pass is, General, please. And what fighting was there in September 1998 with relation to that geographic location that we call Dulje and the Dulje pass?

A. The Dulje pass is a very well known pass between Metohija on the one side and Kosovo on the other side. And the Dulje pass from the Metohija side closes off the entrance into the Crnoljevo canyon, river canyon, and it is located here on the map, and its altitude is about 850 metres above sea level. I'm not quite sure of the exact altitude, but that's about it. And it was highly important in all wars ever conducted on this territory. And according to an agreement with the OSCE, in that particular locality one of the three units of the army of Yugoslavia was located there. They were given permission to be there outside the border belt, and it was a unit from the 233rd Brigade.

Now, as far as the month of September goes, September 1998, and something else that was mentioned, Jezerska Mountain and Mt. Sara, that is where the last, fifth stage of the anti-terrorist operation was conducted pursuant to the plan dating back to July.

Q. General, you were asked many questions here about Mr. Ashdown. ⁴²⁶⁷⁰ Now I have one for you, too, or an assumption. Had Mr. Ashdown come close to the MUP units and the police instead of going to the terrorists over there, would he have been able to see everything that was going on in that area around Suva Reka that he referred to? Was there any position or feature from which, or vantage point from which he could see that?

A. General Ashdown was a diplomatic representative, and he had the right to come -- or, rather, there were many positions from which that could be seen. I think the best position would have been above Suva Reka itself. Right before you get to Dulje, there's a feature called Birac where the army was too. So from that feature there and vantage point he would be able to follow the goings-on of all this territory down here where the combat operations were unfolding. So that is the Birac feature. Although along the Dulje-Suva Reka road and communication line there are many other points from which that could also be seen and viewed better, and viewed in its entirety, in fact.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Presumably that feature is higher than the location that was given for Mr. Ashdown.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, considerably higher. Considerably higher. And it is even higher than these villages here. It is not higher than the peaks of the mountains here, the mountain tops, but it does enable someone standing there to see this entire area from that location.

Of course, Lord Ashdown wouldn't perhaps be able to come here for his personal security, that is to say where the actual combat and fighting was taking place, but from a reasonable distance of say two or three ⁴²⁶⁷¹ kilometres to monitor the situation, or five kilometres even, he would be able to. Nobody could prevent him to do that. It was his right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. At all events, whether he could see all that from the point he was standing at -- could he?

A. No. From the point he was standing at, as I was shown here on the map, he was not able to see all that, sometimes because some of the features were absolutely not visible from that point, and for another reason, because the terrain in front of him stopped his angle of vision towards these villages. And because it is a great distance.

Q. Thank you, General. Now, individual witnesses who appeared here, and amongst them, if you were able to remember a note, there was an officer of the army of Yugoslavia. His -- he was captain first class, Nik Peraj was his name, and he spoke about paramilitary formations in Metohija. Then he also spoke about a brigade of the army of Republika Srpska which, as he said, with tanks -- with tanks arrived in Serbia. What is your information and opinion about those claims presented by Captain First Class Nik Peraj?

MR. NICE: Although I certainly had a lot of questions I wanted to raise, had time been limitless, relating to the evidence and information available from Captain Peraj, in the event I didn't, and it doesn't seem remotely appropriate to raise it now.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Mr. Nice asked a number of questions about paramilitary formations, and General Delic answered those questions about paramilitary formations on a number of ⁴²⁶⁷² occasions. Now I'm taking specific statements by Mr. Nice's witness who said the same thing that Mr. Nice claims. So I think it is quite legitimate for me to ask questions about claims relating to paramilitary formations, because in the cross-examination Mr. Nice did focus on that topic most especially.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, while it is true that there was cross-examination on paramilitary formations, I think the manner in which you have put the question results in it not being appropriate for re-examination. It should be more -- it should be more specific. And in any event, you're seeking this witness's opinion, and I don't think we'll -- that will take us very far.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I wasn't asking the witness's opinion. It is assumed that General Delic knows full well what happened in his area of responsibility.

JUDGE ROBINSON: "What is your information and opinion about these claims presented by Captain First Class Nik Peraj?" So his opinion is not helpful.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, I will take on board what you said fully.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So, General, I'm not asking you for your opinion. I'm asking you in view of the fact that you yourself were there and that Djakovica is in your area of responsibility -- is it? Is Djakovica in your area?

A. Yes, Djakovica is in my area of responsibility, but the town ⁴²⁶⁷³ itself was in the -- or, rather, it was the 52nd Artillery Brigade that was -- of the PVO that was in charge of Djakovica.

Q. All right. Now, General, in the Djakovica area was there any paramilitary formation there or any unit of the army of Republika Srpska, as is claimed by Captain First Class Peraj?

A. I've already said with respect to the paramilitary formations -- I've already given my answer, but the units of the MUP and the units of the army were in my zone, in my area of responsibility. As for the army of Republika Srpska, that is absolutely impossible. And all the people sitting here know that full well, because the border between Republika Srpska and Yugoslavia, on that border crossing you had the forces of SFOR in place, and it was impossible, therefore, for anybody to go in one direction or the other, to cross over in any way.

Q. Yes, that's quite clear. I'm just saying -- telling you of all the kinds of things that were claimed here.

General, this witness also claimed that in the barracks over there in Kosovo and Metohija, there -- in the Djakovica area there were over 170 tanks.

A. That is absolutely not true. Just two brigades were located in Metohija, just my brigade in full force and parts of the 125th Brigade from Mitrovica were located in Pec. So my brigade had a total of 31 tanks, of which always two to three were undergoing maintenance in Cacak. But let's take it that all the 31 tanks were present and the 125th Motorised Brigade also had 31 tanks. During 1998 in Djakovica, there were three of my own tanks and three of my tanks were in the village of Dusni ⁴²⁶⁷⁴ towards Ponosevac. In the village of Ponosevac there were three tanks from the 125th Brigade, and I think that the other three tanks were somewhere around Junik.

Around the end of 1998, I withdrew my tanks to Prizren, and only three tanks were located in the region of Djakovacki HAS or, rather, near the village of Kusnik [phoen], which means that not a single tank, none of my tanks were in Djakovica proper, and the 125th --

JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you have answered Mr. Milosevic's question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, several times during the cross-examination, and I've taken up my notes and we see there is one witness where we can see that he's not telling the truth from these statements, you were explaining to us why the Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija cannot tell the truth. What's the main reason for that?

A. Today, now in Kosovo and Metohija, the Albanians cannot tell the truth for one single reason.

MR. NICE: I have to say that is an unbelievably sweeping observation. I know we have had it from the witness on his own volition but I don't know whether this Chamber is really going to allow a witness to express such an opinion about a whole ethnic group in a territory in which we're concerned.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

[Trial Chamber confers]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. ⁴²⁶⁷⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the witness to comment on a quotation from this particular document. It is your document, that is to say document addressed to Trial Chamber II, where it says Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj, et al. And on page 8 of that document, it is Prosecution's response to Defence motion on behalf of Ramush Haradinaj for provisional release. Here it is. It's a rather lengthy document written by --

MR. NICE: Confidential document. I haven't seen it myself. I don't understand its immediate relevance --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's wait and hear.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what it says, paragraph 25 on page 8: "The security situation for witnesses in Kosovo [In English] is fundamentally different from situation faced -- faced by witnesses in other regions of the former Yugoslavia. UNMIK's efforts to re-establish a functional judicial system have been beset by persistent problem associated with the intimidation of witnesses. In some of the most serious cases witnesses have been killed shortly after cooperating with local judicial authorities. In a report entitled 'Kosovo, a review of the criminal justice system,' the Office of Security and Cooperation in Europe conducted a comprehensive review of the criminal justice system in Kosovo. It reported in part intimidation of witnesses has been a recurrent problem in Kosovo for a number of years, which has led to the introduction by UNMIK of witness protection measures. However, over the reporting period OSCE has recorded a number of incidents that indicate a continuing or even growing trend in witness or victim intimidation and the related problem of ⁴²⁶⁷⁶ stress to judicial officials."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Time for a question now, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, it is mentioned here that some witnesses were even killed "[In English] shortly after cooperating with local judicial authorities." [Interpretation] Killed shortly after cooperating with judicial authorities. And that pertains to Kosovo.

So what do you have to say to that? What are the reasons for which these persons whose faces we saw during the examination-in-chief are now changing their testimony?

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... is it going to be thought appropriate for us to drag out as a general -- or for general observation on the credibility of Serbs that there have been witnesses who have been interfered with when they've cooperated with the Prosecution in cases where there are Serb witnesses? This really is, in my respectful submission, a valueless exercise.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In my view, it arises from the cross-examination, and it may serve some purpose. Let us hear the answer and then we'll adjourn.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All my knowledge, because I'm still in contact with some Albanians, and as for some Albanians who got killed and were supposed to be witnesses before this Court, anyway, whoever appears before this Tribunal can no longer return to Kosovo and Metohija. Such a person has to bear in mind his family as well, because his family members can also get killed. ⁴²⁶⁷⁷ One of these very important witnesses in the Ramush Haradinaj case would be Colonel Tahir Zemaj who belonged to FARK and who was close to Ibrahim Rugova. He was killed on the 4th of January, 2000 -- I think it was 2004. He had already given a statement to the investigators of the Tribunal stating that he wished to testify against Ramush Haradinaj. Regardless of what Mr. Nice says, I am saying that any Trial Chamber that will be trying any Albanian will have a great difficulty involved in bringing any Albanian witnesses from Kosovo. They would have to make sure that they and their families can safely leave Kosovo without ever returning there again.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, General. Any -- Mr. Milosevic, as I indicated, we'll just hear administrative matters very quickly. I take it you are not -- you have not concluded your re-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not. I have not. Your assumption is correct.

In relation to administrative matters, may I just --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My request is very specific and very modest: To make it possible for me to see Mr. Vojislav Seselj. Actually, you have allowed that, but due to a variety of technical reasons, and there's no need for me to go into all of that, that time was greatly shortened. He came with a great delay, not to take up more time to explain why, so I could not fully complete the conversation I was supposed to have with him. ⁴²⁶⁷⁸ And I also wish to draw your attention to another thing. I had the possibility of talking to him for 20 hours, but I did not avail myself of that opportunity. Since he will be testifying right after the break, after recess, I should see him at least once or twice before he testifies. So I need you to grant me that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if you wish to see Mr. Seselj on another occasion, then make another request to the Registrar.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that was my assumption, but I'm not sure that that will be granted unless you order it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: No. You must go to the Registrar first. Mr. Kay.

MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, it arises, an administrative matter, from the recent filing by the Prosecution on the 18th of July. You've probably received it. It's the application for a limited reopening of the Bosnia and Kosovo components of the Prosecution case. It's quite a weighty amount of work that will have to be done by us in considering this, and I'd ask for our time to be extended from the usual so that we could make a filing by the end of August to get through this particular piece of work.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's granted.

MR. KAY: Thank you very much.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, the only thing I diffidently remind the Court of is the warning to a witness, of course, would have to be effected to him for the duration of the adjournment. I think that's all I need to say. ⁴²⁶⁷⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Before we adjourn, Mr. Delic, we will be going on the summer break, and I give you the usual warning not to discuss your evidence with anybody.

We will resume on Wednesday, the 17th of August, at 9.00 a.m. We are adjourned.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Robinson, may I say something, please?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very quickly, yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spent 15 days more here than I had planned to originally. I am a manager and co-owner of a company, so my business is suffering on account of this, so could you please have some understanding for the engagements and obligations I have vis-a-vis my company. So then can I get back to you in terms of when I could come back here, please?

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: You will have some difficulty returning on the 17th?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot be sure at this moment, but there may be some problems which could have serious economic consequences for the employees of the company and all the work I'm supposed to finish by the end of this year.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, we'll leave it this way: If you have a difficulty, then get in touch with the associates or with the assigned counsel, and they will make the appropriate filing. ⁴²⁶⁸⁰ We are adjourned.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.22 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day

of August, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.