⁴²⁷⁶⁶

Thursday, 18 August 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: MUHAREM IBRAJ [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]

Q. Yesterday you told the Trial Chamber that you had been arrested approximately ten times in Kosovo for illegal possession of weapons. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. If we were to examine the court files and the criminal records of your arrest and any convictions, what would these records show?

A. They were not criminal convictions, but it was just my wish to illegally keep a weapon.

Q. You said that you were in prison at one point for a year and a half. Why were you imprisoned for a year and a half?

A. I was in prison for an illegal possession of weapon.

Q. That's a long time to be in prison for the illegal possession of a weapon; correct?

A. It was not that I did it for a long -- for a continuous period of time. I did it once for ten days, for 15 days, for 20 days, and so on.

Q. You said yesterday that your longest period of imprisonment was ⁴²⁷⁶⁷ for a year and a half. My question is: Why were you sent to prison for a year and a half? What did you do?

A. I'm telling you: For illegal arm possession.

Q. I'd like to show you an article found on the Internet last night. If copies could be distributed and a copy placed on the ELMO, please.

This is a note taken from a website called srpska-mreza.com, called "KLA Terror Cleansing," and there is an article here from the AFP news service. It's dated October 9, 1999, but I believe that is incorrect; it should be October 9, 1998. It's titled "Albanian Villagers Arm Themselves Against KLA."

The first paragraph reads like this: "Osek Hilja, Yugoslavia, October 9. Many see him as a spy or a traitor but 78-year-old Mushk Jakupi doesn't care. For this aging ethnic Albanian in Kosovo, who started up a village militia loyal to Serbian authorities, it's the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) that is to blame for the latest problems in the province."

So this appears to be an interview, sir, with your father from October 1998. And in the next paragraph, it says: "'When I saw what they were doing, I decided that we would not let the KLA enter our village,' said Jakupi, a cafe owner in this locality near Djakovica in western Kosovo."

The next paragraph: "He started up a local self-defence group, with the benediction of Serbian police, that now keeps close watch over this village of 1.600 ethnic Albanians." ⁴²⁷⁶⁸ Lower down, it discusses a sheet of paper ripped out of a notebook, saying, "Either you are with us or we will burn down your houses. Join your brothers." Signed, the Kosovo Liberation Army. But if we could turn to the next page, please, there's something I want to focus on. Middle of the next page, it says this: "But the local regime imposed on the village by Jakupi and his men is not welcomed by everyone. 'I would prefer to have my house burnt down than to live like this' --" this is in the fifth paragraph on the second page -- "said the local representative of the Kosovo Democratic League, the party of Kosovo's moderate ethnic Albanian political leader." Two paragraphs further down, it says: "Between the police here and Jakupi's self-defence group, 'We feel like we are in prison,' said this man of 52 who asked not to be named. He pointed to the local police station on a nearby hilltop, with what he said were about 30 policemen." Two paragraphs further down, it says: "He said he himself had not been able to get to Djakovica for the last four months because police 'mistreated' him each time he tried to get through the checkpoint, then sent him back to his farm."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have a question now, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON:

Q. My question is this: Do you think it's possible, sir, that your local security unit at times went a bit too far in imposing control on the people in your village?

A. The local defence has assisted the people. Wherever there was local defence, no damage was incurred to the people. ⁴²⁷⁶⁹

JUDGE BONOMY: Can I clarify one point. Were you on one occasion imprisoned for 18 months?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was, but not for 18 months. Altogether I was, as I said; once for 20 days, once for 15 days, and altogether the sentence term amounted to 18 months.

JUDGE BONOMY: I have to say, Mr. Saxon, that's how I understood yesterday's evidence.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I stand corrected. Reading the LiveNote I read something differently last night, but I stand corrected.

Q. Yesterday you described an incident in your village where two soldiers came and accosted a woman in the village. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you described how eventually, after the intervention of the MUP, that after two or three days you received information that the soldiers were sentenced in Prizren, one to six years and the other to seven years in gaol; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the Serb authorities had a strong interest in prosecuting soldiers who committed crimes in Kosovo villages like yours that were collaborating with the Serb regime. Isn't that correct?

A. In this case in the Osek village, I was the one who discovered it with the help of the local police. It was not the police or the army that discovered it.

Q. My question was something different, sir. My question was whether the Serb authorities would have a strong interest in ensuring that ⁴²⁷⁷⁰ soldiers who committed crimes in villages like yours that were collaborating with the Serb government be prosecuted. Do you agree with that?

A. I don't know what kind of interest the Serb army had. I know only what happened and that the perpetrators were sentenced.

Q. Well, you see, if the Serb regime did not prosecute persons who committed crimes in villages like yours that were collaborating with the Serb authorities, then the regime would risk losing that collaboration. Isn't that correct?

A. As far as my village is concerned, I may assure you that nobody had need to intervene, because everything was corrected the first time it happened.

Q. Yesterday you made some very serious charges against Ambassador William Walker. You referred to an incident where Ambassador Walker came to your home and accused your father of raping two minor females. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you referred to Mr. Walker going to the KLA staff every night between 11.00 and 12.00 p.m. in Glodjane. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. If we can put on the ELMO, please, the next document. The Office of the Prosecutor communicated with William Walker last evening and sent him a copy of your comments yesterday, and what I'm distributing around the courtroom is an e-mail message from Ambassador Walker that I just want to summarise to you, if I may, and get your ⁴²⁷⁷¹ reaction to it.

Ambassador Walker said: "I've read the references to me --" this is in the first paragraph -- "by Muharem Ibraj and can only say that either - he has confused me with someone else, or is making his story up out of whole cloth. None of it relates to anything I was involved in." Is it possible that you may have confused Ambassador Walker with someone else, sir?

A. No. I know him pretty well, sir.

Q. The next paragraph, Ambassador Walker says that he never wore an American flag patch on his sleeve and that there was no cause for any civilian verifier to wear a badge identifying national origin. "We were there as 'internationals'," he said, "and I felt strongly about not presenting myself as 'an American.'" Is it possible you saw a flag that you took to be an American flag but that was a symbol of something else?

A. Today I don't know what he is saying, but that day he introduced himself by saying that Serbia no longer exists.

Q. In the fourth paragraph, Mr. Walker says that the purported conversation with your elderly father, accusing him of rape, never took place "... at least not with me," he said.

If such a conversation had taken place, don't you think Ambassador Walker would have recalled it?

A. Everyone knows that an 80-year-old man is not capable of taking care of his own wife let alone pester some minors.

Q. Ambassador Walker also tells us that: "The claim that I visited the KLA staff in a village called Glodjane, every night between 11 and 12 ⁴²⁷⁷² p.m. is also a fabrication. I was seldom out of Pristina after dark, and never had a meeting with anyone between 11 and 12 p.m. My meetings with KLA representatives were few and far between, 3 or 4 to arrange the KLA's release of two Serb journalists and an exchange of the two sides' captured soldiers. Both of these activities were at the specific request of Milosevic. I had 2-3 other encounters with KLA regional commanders to try to hold the shaky truce together. I repeat, I had no late-night meetings anywhere, with anyone of the KLA."

The truth is, sir, the story you've told about your interactions and observations of William Walker are a tissue of lies. Isn't that correct, sir?

A. They are not lies. They are truths.

Q. "In a word," says Ambassador Walker, "his testimony -" your testimony, sir - "is ludicrous in the extreme..." Do you agree with that statement?

A. It may be ludicrous for him because it doesn't suit him, because I'm telling the truth as to what happened that day.

Q. Yesterday you were describing the events in the city of Djakovica after the 24th of March, 1999, and you described how the bazaar, the old bazaar in Djakovica was bombed by NATO. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd like place a copy of Exhibit 88, tab 18, on the ELMO, please. This is a part of an expert report, sir, presented by a man called Andras Riedlmayer, and this particular section describes his visit to Gjakove. If we can close in a little bit more so we can read the words under the ⁴²⁷⁷³ word "Damage." We need to read the paragraphs under the word "Damage." And this is Dr. Riedlmayer's description of what he saw when he visited the old bazaar after the war in 1999 in Djakovica. "Nearly all the shops in the historic market burned out, in a wide area covering several city blocks surrounding the Hadum Mosque. "Destruction covers the entirety of historic bazaar area designated for protection ..."

And then at the end of that second paragraph: "Building interiors burned out to rooflines."

And then in the third paragraph it says: "Roofs collapsed, dividing walls between shops mostly intact, in many cases with the original roof tiles still lined up along tops of walls undisturbed. No signs of the blast damage that would have been expected if the bazaar had really been hit by airstrikes."

Would you agree, sir, that Dr. Riedlmayer's report indicates that the old bazaar in Gjakove was deliberately burned rather than bombed? Would you agree with that?

A. No, I do not. The old bazaar was bombed. The small - excuse me - bazaar, the police station, and the fruit juice factory, they were the facilities that were bombed.

Q. Turning to the events in the neighbourhood of Qerim in Gjakove. Yesterday you told us that none of the houses in the Qerim neighbourhood were destroyed or razed to the ground. Do you recall that testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd like to show you a photograph, if I can. If this could be ^{42774 BLANK PAGE 42775} placed on the ELMO, please.

Sir, do you recognise this man? His name is Behar Haxhiavdija. He's from Gjakove.

A. Yes, I know him.

Q. Do you know anything about his character, his ability to tell the truth?

A. No.

Q. You see, Behar Haxhiavdija --

MR. SAXON: And this is a witness, Your Honours, who testified on the 2nd of September, 2002. His -- you can find his testimony at page 9314 of the transcript. His statement was Exhibit 303.

Q. Sir, Mr. Haxhiavdija was a resident of Gjakove who took shelter in a house, the house of his Kosovo Albanian brother-in-law, at 157 Milos Gilic Street, in early April 1999. And the witness testified as well, in addition to his father, that his wife, his children, and other members of his family were killed by Serb forces and the houses where they had taken shelter on Milos Gilic Street burned to the ground. Do you have any reason to believe why this person would not be telling the truth?

A. After the war, there may have been houses burned and damaged but not during the war.

Q. That's not the --

A. In the village of Qerim.

Q. Do you have any reason to suggest why this person and his father, Ismet Haxhiavdija, another man by the name of Hani Hoxha, would come into ⁴²⁷⁷⁶ this courtroom, take the oath that you took, sit where you're sitting, and lie about the events in that neighbourhood?

A. I don't know. There is no way how I can know. I haven't heard anything about that. And I don't know what interest he has had in testifying here. Probably what has -- what he has said has happened, but I don't know about that.

Q. Sir, your village, the village of Osek Hilja, was never attacked by Serb forces during 1999; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. After the 24th of March, 1999, Serb police and army initiated an operation to cleanse Djakovo of the Kosovo Albanian population. Isn't that true?

A. I don't know.

Q. The residents of so-called loyal villages like Osek Hilja, the villages where people like yourselves were collaborating with the Serb authorities, were allowed to remain in Kosovo. Isn't that true?

A. It is not true.

Q. And you and members of the so-called local security unit were part of this criminal plan and took an active role in it. Isn't that true, sir?

A. No, this is not true.

MR. SAXON: That's all I have, Your Honours.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. Any re-examination, Mr. Milosevic?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, thank you. ⁴²⁷⁷⁷ Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ibraj, last night I saw on TV Belgrade that you had stated here that the state in Kosovo used to arrest people involved in politics. Did you say anything of the kind in fact?

A. I have said that the state never arrest anyone for political motives, only for illegal arms possessions, for murders, for thefts, and so on. But I've never heard of the state service arresting anyone for political motives. The Albanian flag was used in Kosovo. The Albanian language was used as well in schools until the end of the war.

Q. Well, all right. We can probably ascribe that to some errors in the interpretation. But after that, a term was used here -- I don't know Albanian, but you know Serbian and I will ask for your assistance. You were asked who was involved in politics, and the interpretation came through that those who were authorised to do so were involved in politics. Did you use that term "authorised"? The people who were politically active were those who were authorised to be?

A. Anyone who was involved in politics was an authorised person in the eyes of the Serb state. Second, it may be a misunderstanding ensuing from interpretation. I already said that when I was a member of the LDK and I wanted to vote, when I returned home I ran across the police patrol, and they didn't say anything to me, but the translation was that I found a tin of petrol in front of my home. I don't know what connection there is between a police patrol and a petrol.

Q. Very well. Did I understand correctly when you said that anyone who was involved in politics was an authorised person, you meant that ⁴²⁷⁷⁸ anybody could be politically active if they wanted to?

A. As far as I know, Ibrahim Rugova was the chairman of the Democratic League of Kosovo, and we others were members until the end of the war, but nobody harassed us for being members of that party. I don't know anything else.

Q. All right. I think we've clarified this sufficiently. Mr. Saxon produced to you your own statement in the English language, and you confirmed that it bore your signature. Do you remember that from yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Ibraj, do you know English?

A. No, I don't.

Q. So you signed a statement in the English language, which you do not know. Were you given to read your statement in your own mother tongue, Albanian?

A. There was an interpreter there. I don't know him. He read the statement to me, he translated it to me, and I signed it.

Q. Very well. Now, quite by chance yesterday, because I couldn't even know these facts when I was quoting passages from your statement that I received yesterday -- the pages are not numbered but it should be the fourth page, including the cover page -- I read out to you something from the statement. I will quote: "[In English] When my son Kujtim Ibraj was taken away by the UCK, he was together with Isa Ibraj and a person with name Ram Ademaj. Ademaj was released one day later while my son Kujtim and Isa Ibraj are still missing." ⁴²⁷⁷⁹ [Interpretation] When I read this out to you, you said this was incorrect because Ram Ademaj is in fact the person who abducted your son. He was not abducted together with him, he was the one who abducted your son. Is that what you said yesterday?

A. Yes, that's right. Ram Ademaj came around with 20 KLA members, and he arrested my son and my brother, but he himself was not arrested. It was he who arrested my son and my brother.

Q. Very well. If the interpreter had read this to you, would you have signed the statement as it was or would you have made the correction that you made yesterday?

A. I would have improved it, of course. I would have corrected it, because it was not what I said.

Q. Well, Mr. Saxon said here that the statement had been read back to you, that you had confirmed it and signed it. Could that be taken as your confirmation of the veracity of what is written, or not, based on what we have just seen?

A. The interpreter read it out to me. Whatever I understood, I understood. But I signed it just the same even if I didn't understand some parts of it, because we were there for some six hours.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Ibraj. That would be enough about the contents of your statement.

Now, there is another area that is unclear concerning how you were elected. Let us try to clear that up.

MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, yes. ⁴²⁷⁸⁰

MR. SAXON: I don't believe that the issue of "how Mr. Ibraj was elected" came up during my cross-examination of the witness, Your Honour, so it would not be food for redirect examination.

JUDGE KWON: I think you asked some questions during your cross-examination. I'm not sure.

MR. SAXON: I don't believe I did, Your Honour, but I'm willing to be corrected one more time.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, can you direct us to the part of the cross-examination where that arises.

JUDGE KWON: Not you, but I --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem. No problem whatsoever. Mr. Saxon mentioned it just a moment ago, speaking of some web page that he downloaded last night concerning the fact that people did not accept the local security, that they were against local security. I'm just trying to verify this. That is the reference, and I'm asking, following up on that, how he was elected or selected and whether this can be --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So I'm asking again: Who elected you?

A. I said yesterday as well the Osek Hilja village has 168 households. Approximately it has about 1.700 inhabitants. If the village of Osek didn't elect me, someone would have come up and expressed his opposition against my election, but during the war nobody said anything, and six years have passed since that time and again nobody has said anything now that they are free. They don't have any Serb militia or ⁴²⁷⁸¹ police or army there, so they can say what they want, and they haven't done so.

JUDGE KWON: I think this question was a bit distorted. Yesterday he said he was appointed by the president of the municipality, not elected by the people.

Could you clarify that question, Mr. Ibraj. You were appointed by Mr. Stanojevic, not by the people in Osek Hilja?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say I was appointed by the commune chairman. He called us, we had a meeting with him, and they brought the decision. Every village had a representative in that meeting. So the villagers held meetings in every village and elected the local defence members. This is what I said yesterday. I'm saying today too. Osek Hilja village elected me and Mihil Abazi. Every village elected their own members of the defence force. The commune chairman only signed the decision. And this is what I said yesterday and I'm telling again today. And I'm repeating: If the village didn't elect me, there would have been someone who opposed that decision and said that I was not elected.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you went to see the president of the municipality on behalf of the village that elected you, and then the president of the municipality invited the elected representatives of villages. Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes, that's true, and then he signed the decisions. ⁴²⁷⁸²

Q. And then the president of the municipality adopted decisions appointing you as local security members so that you can obtain uniforms, weapons, and all the rest that you needed. Was that the essence of the role of the president of the municipality?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. In this article taken from a web page quoted by Mr. Saxon, he quoted certain passages, and I will quote from page 2, paragraph 3. It says: "His militia--" I don't know why they're putting "militia" under quotation marks -- "numbers about 20 men ..."

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, there are many websites, web pages referred to by Mr. Saxon. Could you identify the document first of all.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the last one that Mr. Saxon said he'd found last night. It says "srpska-mreza/sirius/KLA-Terror- Cleansing," et cetera.

"[In English] Not all villages go along with the KLA's armed struggle for independence, and Albanians who resist KLA may be Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox Christians."

[Interpretation] So that was found on the Internet. And then there is another reference on page 1, at the beginning. "Osek Hilja." There is a reference to the 78-year-old Mushk Jakupi. That is the father of this witness.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have it, so you proceed with your question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, on page 2 it says: "[In English] His 'militia' numbers about ^{42783 BLANK PAGE 42784} 20 men, two of whom wore police uniforms. Recently, Jakupi said, they seized weapons that had been supplied by the KLA rebels from the homes of Osek Hilja villagers."

[Interpretation] And now he quotes -- he quotes your father. I'm reading it out: "[In English] 'We forced them to leave the village. But no one was killed. No home was burned. Not even a chicken was hurt,' he said."

[Interpretation] So was the point of your activity to avoid all violence in the village, not to allow the KLA to enter the village so the army and the police would have no need to come?

MR. SAXON: That was a very leading question, Your Honour, "Was the point of your activity..." et cetera. Perhaps the question can be rephrased.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you will have to reformulate that question.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Ibraj, is it the case that from the moment you were elected by the villagers to lead the security of your village until the end of the war there were any casualties in the village?

A. I think I told you yesterday. I informed you about the two instances, that with the army and that -- that was -- that involved myself. But that -- those two were the two instances. Otherwise, we didn't have anything else.

Q. You have explained that already. But did you indeed, as it says ⁴²⁷⁸⁵ in these various excerpts that we looked at yesterday, maltreat your villagers, beat them, rape them? Did anything of that kind happen in the village?

A. What the Prosecutor read out to me yesterday and today, they have to do with people whom I don't know. If I had done any of the accusations he asked me, then there would have been someone in the village who would have told me, because as I said, there are about 1.700 inhabitants. And nobody has ever said or accused me of maltreatment or doing any harm to them other than assisting them and ensuring that the school was functioning during all the time of the war.

Q. So even the school operated throughout the war in your village.

A. Yes, during all the time of the war, the school was functioning.

Q. Now, with regard to what Mr. Saxon produced here yesterday, a number of documents: KCC News, Free Kosova, Regions, Culture, NGO's, Links. Kosova Crisis Center, that is a source that he showed us yesterday, and then he quoted from page 2 about this event that you described in detail in examination-in-chief. However, we read here: "The Albanian, Sylejman Bajrami -" that is a man you mentioned in examination-in-chief and whom you killed in self-defence - it says, "was killed after having his house surrounded by Serbian forces." Did Serbian forces surround Bajrami's house while Bajrami himself was killed?

A. I think I said yesterday I was there with my members when that occurred. I called the observers to come. After the observers, I called the police to come, and the investigating judge. I called the police to ⁴²⁷⁸⁶ come to have them as witness to what had occurred, and not to use force or anything, because there was no other incident. There was no forces that encircled anything. After that, Sulejman Bajrami has five more brothers. If that were true, what was read out to me yesterday, one of his brothers or one of his children or his wife might have -- might have given a statement. So what was read out is not true.

Q. All right. I will not quote to you from other similar accusations presented by Mr. Saxon.

Six members of your family were abducted, weren't they?

A. That's true.

Q. Those who abducted six members of your family, were they the same people who control the provision of these statements that are being presented here?

MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: I don't think during cross-examination I asked the witness about the abduction of members of his family.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The question, Mr. Saxon, seems to relate to the source of the statements that you presented.

MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, the question begins, "Those who abducted six members of your family," and then it says, "were they..." You have to read the question together. There is a clear connection between both parts of the question, Your Honour, and I did not make any inquiries with the witness regarding the tragic loss of members of his family. ⁴²⁷⁸⁷

JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not allow it, Mr. Milosevic. Move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Ibraj, at one point yesterday while answering the questions of Mr. Saxon, the questions that Mr. Saxon presents as evidence of your violent behaviour, you said that those witnesses were false witnesses. Why did you use that term?

A. They were not false witnesses, then someone would have come out from the very village where I live and given those statements. But out of jealousy, because in Gjakove municipality the Osek village was the only one that was not touched until the end of the war. Why didn't KLA dare enter our village? In all the villages that the KLA has entered, the village has either been burned, damaged, people have been killed, everything has occurred, but not in Osek village. It was intact. This is the reason why.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the transcript it says, "They were not false witnesses," whereas the witness said something else. He said, "If they were not false witnesses, then somebody would have come out," and so on. He said had they not been or --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We're grateful for the correction.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So where do you see the connection? Why would these people be making statements against you? I mean the people that gave these various statements and documents. ⁴²⁷⁸⁸

A. They speak against me out of jealousy, because Osek village was the only village that remained intact. And it was myself and some collaborators of mine that assisted and defended the village. I think this is the reason.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj. Mr. Ibraj, can I ask you whether there are other villages that had this close collaboration with the Serb forces.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know one thing: That when the defence -- local defence was set up, the KLA killed many of its members. And when they killed someone in a village, others didn't dare continue.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In your geographical area, your village Osek Hilja was the only one that had a close collaboration with the Serb forces?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were also some other villages where there was local defence, but I said that when the KLA killed some members of the local defence forces, people were scared to join the force, and then the KLA took over.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Ibraj, have you any knowledge of the number of people in the wider Djakovica area, where you spent your entire life and the whole war, were killed by the KLA, killed and abducted?

MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. This is not part -- this cannot have come out of the cross-examination, Your Honour. It cannot be ⁴²⁷⁸⁹ something that needs to be clarified based on the cross-examination.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. Mr. Milosevic, move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you agree, but those who killed this huge number of Albanians are certainly motivated to spread such lies about the witness Ibraj. There is no doubt of that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've ruled it does not arise out of cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Ibraj, in one of these documents -- I will not search for it unless I'm forced to, although I believe perhaps I could find where this is, it's a huge pile of paper brought by Mr. Saxon, but somewhere it says that you maltreated citizens when you took them to the police station. Tell us, please, did you have a police station in your local security?

A. We didn't have any police station of our own. We had -- we had an office in the municipality building where we held meetings and when we got our salaries. We didn't have any police station. Not only in Osek but in none of the villages there was any police station.

Q. If I understand you correctly, you did not have a police station to which you could take a citizen to maltreat him there, as it says in these papers here.

A. We were not MUP police. We were village police. We were, or otherwise, village security forces. As I said, we had our office in the municipality building.

Q. Very well. Let me just -- just let me see whose statement this ⁴²⁷⁹⁰ is. It was presented by Mr. Saxon yesterday. Domi Durim, who made a statement on the 8th of February, 2000. He says, and this was quoted to you by Mr. Saxon: "On the 27th of March [In English] I was in my courtyard together with my family. The police together with members of Mush Jakupi arrived and they broke into the courtyard by forcing the gate. All of us fled up to Qabrat hill. From there we saw police and Mush Jakupi unit members while they were burning the houses of Afrim Domi and Fatmir Domi."

[Interpretation] Please, did this event take place?

A. On the day that it's mentioned there, Mushk Jakupi was in hospital, in the hospital of Gjakove. In the last 15 years, he has been suffering from gangrene. And in the last 20 years he has been to Gjakove only three times, just to see the doctor. And these are not true.

Q. He goes on to say: "One could recognise the members of the Mush Jakupi unit [In English] because they wore plain clothes, and they spoke Albanian."

[Interpretation] So was your local security wearing ordinary clothes or were you wearing the uniforms of the local security?

A. As I said yesterday, the defence -- the local defence had a special uniform. It was neither a police or a military uniform. It was a specific uniform pertaining to the local defence. There were two -- an insignia on the arm and on the cap. It was written there only "Local Defence," both in Albanian and in Serbian, and nothing more.

Q. Very well. But in any case, this was a uniform. It was not civilian clothes, as was mentioned here. ⁴²⁷⁹¹

MR. SAXON: That is quite a statement as opposed to a question, Your Honour. "In any case, this was a uniform." He is putting words in the witness's mouth. The witness has said, "We only wore insignia on our arm and on our cap. That's all we wore." And I object to the form of the question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Reformulate it, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought it was sufficiently clear.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did the members of the local security have uniforms or did they have civilian clothes?

MR. SAXON: The question has been answered, Your Honour, answered a few minutes ago by the witness. He can't keep repeating the question simply because he doesn't like the answer he receives.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite so, Mr. Milosevic. Move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand. Mr. Ibraj replied that they had uniforms. In this statement here it says they were wearing civilian clothes, the members of his local security, and that they were committing some kind of crimes. That's something completely different. So what is there for me not to like?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know anything about this event where these people fled to Cabrat hill, as it says here, and that someone torched the houses of Afrim and Fatmir Domi?

A. I do not know anything about them, nor do I know those persons.

Q. In this same passage it says: "[In English] On 25 March in Asim ^{42792 BLANK PAGE 42793} Vokshi Street I saw MUP going to Mother Teresa Center..." [Interpretation] Where is this centre in Djakovica?

A. This centre was behind the Pastrik Hotel. If you're talking about the one centre that I'm thinking about. The centre used to distribute aid. They distributed aid during the war, even before the war. The same centre also distributed aid in my village. And it existed until the end of the war. They distributed flour, other food, clothing, soap, oil, and everyone was free to go there and take this aid. And this centre also existed in my village too.

Q. What it says here is the following: It says he saw the MUP coming to the Mother Teresa Centre, and it says "(local humanitarian agency)," and then it says that first they looted and then burned down the centre, which comprised three buildings. On the 25th of March, this man says, they first looted - policemen, that is - and then burned the centre, which comprised three buildings.

A. This is not true, because -- because the police was not there, and I -- you could have people who could try to help and distribute those aid, for example. This was in the house of Hasan Kupa [phoen] during the war. Because the police did not need our aid, our assistance.

Q. Very well. Thank you. Thank you for testifying. I have no further questions.

JUDGE KWON: I have just one minor question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. I thank you too. Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ibraj, you said yesterday that your father had ⁴²⁷⁹⁴ been referred to as Mush Jakupi and your local defence members as Jakupi unit, that -- the Muharem Ibraj is totally another person than you. Is that right? I'm sorry, Muharem Jakupi is a different person from you.

A. Even yesterday I said that my name is Muharem Ibraj. Muharem Jakupi is a neighbour of mine.

JUDGE KWON: Yes.

A. No one calls me Muharem Jakupi.

JUDGE KWON: My question is, Mr. Ibraj, whether Muharem Jakupi was a member of your local defence.

A. No. He was a member of the police, of the Serbian police.

JUDGE KWON: Where; in Gjakove?

A. Yes, in Gjakove, but I think he has retired a few years ago.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Call your next witness, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next witness is Saban Fazliu.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to greet you, Your Honours. Good morning. Good morning, Mister. I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. ⁴²⁷⁹⁵

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

WITNESS: SABAN FAZLIU

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Milosevic. Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. Mr. Fazliu, would you please introduce yourself and give us some details about where you were born, where you were educated, and where you worked.

A. I was born in the village of -- in the village of Rivnik in Viti municipality. I completed my elementary school there in the eight-year school. In 1978, then I went to Ferizaj where I completed the elementary school or secondary school, and then I lived in this place for the rest of my life.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In what year were you born?

A. I was born on the 15th of May, 1959.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And what was the make-up of your village? I mean its ethnic make-up. Was it a purely Albanian village? Was it a mixed village? What was the composition of the population there?

A. My village was a mixed one, 50/50. When I was a little boy in 1975, at the time in 1978 people tried to leave the village and go to Serbia. Some people were paid, some not, but most of them, they did not get any money, but some of them, though they had a kind of a deal, they did not get their money in the end. For the time being, no Serb can be found in my village. ⁴²⁷⁹⁶

Q. When you lived there during your education, it was 50/50, as far as I can understand, Serbs and Albanians in the village. What was the language in which you were taught in school?

A. I was taught in the Albanian language. Only one subject was taught in Serbian, and 50 per cent of the class was -- were -- was made up of Serbian pupils. And they had the same as us. One, they had two subjects per week which were taught in the Albanian language. We had the same rights with them.

Q. Tell us, in view of the mixed ethnic composition of your village, from your earliest childhood did you socialise with Serbs?

A. Yes. Yes. We socialised with Serbs until recently. We socialised with them, we went with them to school together; in the mountain, in the fields, everywhere we were together. But as of 1977, nationalism tried to interfere in this in our company.

Q. When did these problems begin?

A. The problems began in 1977 when the first concert, as far as I remember, was held in Ferizaj. They existed even before, since the immigrants came from Albania to Kosovo, and since then, so as to say, problems tried -- tried to interfere in the people's lives, like to go to Albania, how to leave for Albania, how to escape the Serbs, and there were some minor problems. In 1977, these problems really became bigger and these -- the reason was just to get us away from the Serbs.

JUDGE BONOMY: The transcript says that the problems began in 1977 when the first concert was held in Ferizaj. What did you mean by "concert"? ⁴²⁷⁹⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The concert is a kind of a contest, song contest, because they came from Albania as guests, and I was a pupil there at the time. The first concert was held there, and various songs were sung there, how to unite all the Albanian brothers, unite. And I heard the term "nationalism" for the first time there.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Very well. We will not go into the entire history of these events. I will ask you something about you personally now. Did you continue to socialise with your Serb neighbours? What were your relations like with members of the Serb ethnic community?

A. The majority of us Albanians socialised with Serbs and worked together with them until the year 1998. The majority. Let's say 80 per cent. And of this percentage, 10 per cent were against them.

Q. You say -- very well. Until 1998. And what happened in 1998? Tell us, please.

A. First of all, I'd like to talk about myself. In 1991, I cannot remember the date quite well, something occurred to me, happened to me when our leaders issued the order not to talk to the Serbs, not to work with the Serbs, not to have any kind of contact with them. It was spring. It was spring, the time of agricultural work, because I worked there. No one dared to incite, to cause problems between the neighbour -- between neighbours. And it was only during the night that they managed to speak to each other. To me, it happened at my neighbour. He said that I just -- he said, "I can't find workers." And I told my neighbour that I had my good relations with him and I'm the person who has come here and work. "I ⁴²⁷⁹⁸ will come and help you." And when I work -- when I went to work there --

Q. Just a moment. Mr. Fazliu, was your neighbour a Serb or an Albanian?

A. Serbian.

Q. He was a Serb. Explain this, please.

A. I can even say his name. His name was Dzelatovic, Zarko, and I used to plough the land with him, with his brother, with his father. We used to plough the land all the time in the field. When we returned, as it was getting dark, they -- normally Albanians returned together -- they were about 20 or 30 people, and they offended me there. And then the reason was why I went to him and plough the land.

Q. Why did they insult you?

A. This was the reason, because they had received an order from our leaders not to go and work with the Serbs, not even talk to them. We should -- we were ordered not to have any relations with them at all. The next day, in the morning, when I woke up to work in my fields alone with a friend of mine, an Albanian, my father and three -- my father and three -- and three men -- a father and three men went there and beat me up. At that time, I was in an illegal possession of a weapon, and then they stopped me, and one of them who attacked me, and then I wounded him, I shoot at him three times.

By this description, I would like to say that this is exactly what happened to me, why I did not listen to what the leaders said. Those leaders, even today they are not having in good post. That is why I was unable to listen to them. ⁴²⁷⁹⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. When we return from the break, you will answer Mr. Milosevic's question as to what happened in 1998.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one correction.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript it says he was attacked by his father. He says "my father --"

JUDGE ROBINSON: It was changed to "a father." It was changed to "a father and three men." I saw that.

We will take the break now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You were asking the witness about 1998.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, you said that these relations were good until 1998. What happened in 1998?

A. In 1998, the KLA started to go to the mountains armed, in bigger numbers. I wanted to explain what befell me, if possible, something that happened to me.

JUDGE ROBINSON: When was this?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened to me in 1991.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you had already done that. Do you have more to say about that incident? ⁴²⁸⁰⁰

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a little bit more.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have to follow the lines of -- the line of questioning set by Mr. Milosevic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, but I was interrupted, Your Honours. If possible, I would like to continue. If not, then we can continue with something else.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let Mr. Milosevic continue his questioning in relation to 1998. If necessary, he will guide you back to 1991.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Well, all right, but I think it makes more sense for you to finish explaining what happened then. Tell us very briefly what it was that you wanted to add to this.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, briefly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that nationalism began with my case, and the courts were working for justice, and I was brought before court and tried even though I was not guilty. As a person, I had the right to help whoever I wanted whenever I wanted. However, the court sentenced me. The courts in Kosova followed the rules, and this I can confirm with my own case.

This is what I wanted to say.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You started explaining, Mr. Fazliu, the year of 1998, and you said that in that year many members of the KLA went into the mountains. What happened in that year 1998? ^{42801 BLANK PAGE 42802}

A. The order to get armed came. They were armed even earlier. The arming in Kosovo began in 1992, and in 1998 in my municipality people started joining in greater numbers and went to the mountains. In my municipality, in the villages of Recak, Belince, Malev, Stimlje, they were all linked or had connection with the Drenica part. I worked as a forest ranger at the time, and I was always in the terrain, in the mountains, because that was the sort of work I was doing, and this is how I got the correct information.

Q. Does that mean that in your own setting where you worked as a forest keeper, you said that you were in the hills all the time, were there any extremists there, members of the KLA? What's this all about? Were these certain groups or individuals that you came across? Who were they? Who led them? Were any court proceedings instituted against any of them? Could you tell us about that briefly.

A. Yes. A person who was a friend of mine, Adem Abazi, one of the main figures in the KLA, we were together in school. I know him ever since 1973. He was the leader of the Jezerce group and the group that operated in Recak and Kacanik in Ferizaj municipality. He was sentenced by the court in 1979 and completed four years of prison, a sentence of four years' imprisonment.

My brother, half brother, Ekrem Fazliu, was one of them, one of the persons sentenced for attempts to secede Kosova from Serbia and attach it to Albania. The above person that I mentioned was one of the key figures of the KLA. My brother was a member of the KLA Commission.

Q. Did you come across all of them? What commission? ⁴²⁸⁰³

A. I met these persons in the mountains. I saw them in the mountains, in guest rooms, because my work involved this kind of activity, moving in the villages, in the mountains, and they always moved in the mountains. They were not organised in large groups. They operated in groups of three or four, pursuant to their orders. And later these groups became larger, consisting of around 100 persons.

Q. Were they armed? Did they wear uniforms?

A. Of course they were armed. But they didn't have uniforms, all of them. Only the main figures, the commanders, had uniforms. In each group you could find only one or two wearing a uniform while the rest were in civilian clothes, but of course they were armed.

Q. And what was their activity in that year of 1998 that you know of directly?

A. Their activity began in 1995, and their goal was to kill policemen, to kill persons who refused to abandon their works, persons who do not carry out their orders. This is their task, to kill, to kill innocent people and to realise their goal, as is the case now.

Q. You said just now that they killed people who refused to stop working. Can you tell us what this was all about?

A. There are many examples of this kind, but I will mention the example of Elmi Mahmuti, a friend of mine. He had this problem, and because of this his brother was killed. He killed his brother, and the court sentenced him in 1992. The court was in their hands. In Kosova at that time, 90 per cent of the population were Albanians. 90 per cent were working as clerks right until 1992. And they received the orders for ⁴²⁸⁰⁴ killing policemen from Adem Abazi and his men. Their aim was to kill policemen and to begin a conflict.

Q. Please explain in a bit more detail what you said, that they killed those people who refused to stop working. Who was it that gave these orders to people to stop working?

A. Our leaders. The leaders gave these orders. One of the main leaders was Shaqir Shabani. I don't remember the exact year, but in 1969, I think, he was in Albania. Today he lives in France. He is a supporter of Muhamed Zogu and Shaqir Berisha. Correction, Ahmet Zogu and Sali Berisha. He is my uncle, Shaqir Berisha [as interpreted].

Q. Tell me, Mr. Fazliu, who was it that Shaqir Shabani ordered to stop working?

A. Shaqir Shabani ordered his friends, his deputies. It is well known that they worked as in one army, regular army, but they operated illegally, and they had their own leaders. For example, Hajdin Abazi, Sadik Bala, my brother Ekrem Fazliu, and others.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to file a criminal complaint against any one of these people who were doing illegal things? I don't mean only as a forest-keeper in relation to your very own line of work, forestry, but were you in a position to file criminal complaints against these people, to press criminal charges?

A. Yes. We Albanians are Muslims, and it is our tradition that everything which is against the law shall be reported. Everyone that is working against the law should be reported. For this reason, for many cases that I had knowledge of, cases of persons who were in possession of ⁴²⁸⁰⁵ automatic rifles or hand grenades or uniforms, I reported these men and they were sentenced.

Q. Did you have cases when you reported some Serbs for criminal offences?

A. Yes, of course. According to our tradition, we do not report only Albanians but also Serbs and others. Whatever is prohibited according to the law, we report it, things that are against the interests of people. There are cases when I reported Serbs as well.

Q. All right. These criminal offences that you referred to and that you reported concerning which you filed criminal complaints, do they only have to do with the possession of weapons and uniforms or also some crimes that were committed, very specific crimes?

A. I saw only those who were in possession of weapons, and they were sentenced. Their weapons were seized. But also cases when people got killed but the security was dealing in those issues. I had nothing to do with these cases. My work was to report everything that was against the law.

Q. All right. At that time in 1998, did you know where KLA bases were?

A. Yes. In Kotlina village, Kacanik municipality, in Jezerce village, and in the village of Recak, in Belince just above Recak. It is kind of connected to Recak, this Belince. This is in my municipality. And in the direction of Gnjilane as well, but there was only a small number of them.

Q. All right. There in your municipality, in those villages that you ⁴²⁸⁰⁶ mentioned, a few of them, what was the approximate number of KLA members?

A. Up to 100 members in 1998. Until 1999, they operated in smaller groups; 15 members, 30 members. They were getting trained, they were building trenches. This is what I've seen with my own eyes. And in late 1999, their number grew.

Q. Did you say in late 1998 or 1999 in Serbia?

A. 1998.

Q. Thank you. Let us move on to very specific matters. What can you say about the situation in Urosevac after the first NATO attacks, after the first NATO attacks starting with the 24th of April? I stand corrected, the 24th of March, 1999.

A. Before the bombing started, a small number of people left Kosova. I'm speaking of my own municipality, Stimlje, Gnjilane, Viti, and the villages in this area. I would say 5 per cent of the population left. However, when the bombing started, out of fear people start to leave in greater numbers. It wasn't difficult only for human beings. It was difficult for animals as well, for everyone who lived in Kosova at that time.

I had relatives who worked abroad in Germany and Switzerland who invited me and my family to go there and leave. They invited me even 15 days before the bombing started. They had set up the camps in Albania and Macedonia six months earlier, because I was told personally that if we didn't leave, we would have been killed, all of us, because of the bombing, and that's what happened. Many people were injured because of the NATO bombing, traumatised. Only the youth up to the age of 18 ⁴²⁸⁰⁷ suffered traumas and are not able to continue their lives normally. So after the bombing started, people began to leave Kosova in greater numbers.

Q. Mr. Fazliu, please tell us very precisely and as briefly as possible, what were the reasons why people started leaving Kosovo in great numbers, according to all you know and your entire experience?

A. As I mentioned earlier, my brother, during the bombing, was with me with his entire family. Their aim was to make the world see that the people were leaving because of the harm that the Serbians were causing, but it was the contrary. They were leaving because of NATO. Only a small number of criminals who were sentenced for weapons, drugs, and so on left because of Serbia, people who left for their own profits. But when the bombing started, people were really stressed.

Q. Tell us one more thing: From what you know, what was the attitude of KLA leaders regarding whether people should or shouldn't leave Kosovo?

A. The KLA order was as it follows: Those who do not follow KLA orders will be killed. And this happened. In reality, those persons who did not follow KLA orders -- I will mention here the case of a friend of mine who was taken by the KLA and kept for nine days - however, he was fortunate enough to escape and survive - he himself proved this. We have brought this case before the court in Kosova after the war. Twenty-six persons from Kacanik municipality were -- who were taken during the night and killed, all of them Albanians. Five of them were sentenced in Pristina about four or five months ago. I was in Pristina twice and gave a statement, just like I came here to tell the truth. I ⁴²⁸⁰⁸ was a witness there as well, and I stated the truth.

Q. All right. Let us come back to this issue. You said the KLA would kill those who disobeyed orders. What were the orders of the KLA addressed to the population at the time?

A. The order was to leave Kosova in later stages, to go to Albania, Macedonia, so that the world could see for themselves that the Albanians are leaving because of the harm caused by the Serbs. This was the aim. This was the KLA order.

Q. Now, tell me, in what way was this KLA order issued? Did KLA leaders or maybe their followers go from house to house to tell people what the orders were or was it done in some other way? How was this order communicated to Albanians in Kosovo?

A. Every street, every village had a council of its own. They had their own people in these councils, and it also happened that they went to guest rooms and communicated their orders during gatherings. This happened in 1997, 1998. They operated in 1996 as well but in smaller groups, up to three persons, just to convince the people, because we had connections, we had friendship with the Serbs; there was nothing bad between us.

To this age of 46, I never had any harm caused by a Serb or by Albanian or by a Turk. There were even Romas. But from them I suffered harm.

I will mention an example here. I came here voluntarily to tell the truth, and three days after that my daughter was taken. She is nearly 17 years old. The KLA network is functioning to this date. The main ⁴²⁸⁰⁹ figures, those who became generals, are those who killed people. I will not mention the younger ones or smaller in rank.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... she was 17 when she was taken or is she 17 now?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was born in 1989. She is to be 17 soon. I wanted to come to this court here from Kosova straight. And a witness to this is a Greek and an Italian from KFOR, but they didn't write this down. They asked me, "What do you want to say there?" And I said to them, "I want to say the truth." I didn't come here to defend anyone. I just came here to tell the truth, how things happened.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived in The Hague a month ago --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, direct questions to the witness.

JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, Mr. Fazliu -- just a second. Mr. Fazliu, I don't remember whether I heard from you where you lived in the municipality of Urosevac. What village was that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Softovic.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, when you decided to come here to testify, as you mentioned a moment ago, your daughter was abducted three days later. Is that what you just said?

A. Yes.

Q. When was your daughter abducted? ^{42810 BLANK PAGE 42811}

A. Five months ago.

Q. Tell me, how did they find out about your decision to come here to testify? Do you know that?

A. Yes. I am sure about 99 per cent. I told my family that I was going to ask to be taken to The Hague to tell the truth. My brother was there, his wife, whose two brothers were members of the KLA, and I think it was because of this wife of my brother that this happened, that they learned about my intent to come to The Hague.

Q. And then in retaliation they kidnapped your daughter.

A. Yes.

Q. So do you have any knowledge about the whereabouts, the fate of your daughter?

A. When I was here, then I heard that my daughter had called my -- her mother, that is my wife, that she is alive, but nothing else as to where she is, only that she's alive.

Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Let us --

JUDGE BONOMY: If that's the end of that matter, may I ask what action is being taken about this?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean about my daughter, sir?

JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I asked Belgrade to enable me to come here to The Hague, this is the reason why my daughter was kidnapped. If I know who has taken her, I have warned, and my family, my wife, has already informed the police and also published an announcement in the newspaper that if I know where my daughter is now and who is the ⁴²⁸¹² person who has kidnapped her, I would have done short work of that person and would not have asked for any other assistance, because my life is worthless now. If you have children yourself, you understand me.

JUDGE BONOMY: Which police have been informed?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police that is now there.

JUDGE BONOMY: Where?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Kosova, in Ferizaj.

JUDGE BONOMY: I'm anxious to know where this was reported, which police office, and to whom it was reported.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My wife and my son, because it's not easy for me to go there. I don't go there openly to my home. I'm afraid of the criminals of the KLA.

JUDGE BONOMY: Where was it reported?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Ferizaj.

JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, let us go back to that specific issue we were discussing. You said KLA leaders had ordered Albanians through that entire network of their sympathisers and representatives to leave Kosovo. Do you know who it was specifically in your area who ordered Albanians to leave?

A. Yes, I do. There was Muhamed Ademi, who used to work as a teacher; Sadik Bala, and many others. If you want me, I can give ⁴²⁸¹³ their names as well.

Q. What were the orders?

A. They gave the order to leave Kosova for the world to see what was happening, but nothing happened before NATO bombing. The KLA members removed their own families two, three years ago from Kosova. As to the people in general, I'm talking about 90 per cent of the people, they didn't leave Kosova until the NATO bombing started, despite the order given, because they thought this was not the right order.

Q. What can you tell us about the conduct of the army and the police in Kosovo? What can you tell us about any problems between the army and the police on one hand and the population, the civilian population, in Kosovo?

A. I don't know what to say. I can only say that they have -- the army has protected us. They have even handed out chocolates to the kids. I don't know how best to describe it. I don't know any harm, any trouble to have been caused to us by the army. The army has behaved like any army all over the world. I'm speaking about -- not only about my own village but also about other municipalities; Ferizaj, Gnjilane, Pristina. Normally the army was there to help us.

Q. Now, be so kind as to tell me something about this paragraph of the indictment, 63(j). It says that: "In the period from the 24th of March until the 14th of April, forces of FRY and Serbia shelled and attacked villages in the Urosevac/Ferizaj municipality, including the following villages: Biba, Muhadzer Prelez, Raka and Staro Selo, killing a number of residents. After the shelling, forces of the FRY and Serbia ⁴²⁸¹⁴ entered some of the villages, including Papaz and Sojevo, and ordered the residents to leave."

Do you know anything about this?

A. Yes, I do. Only in Prelez village the army has told, in a very polite manner, the people to leave there and go to Ferizaj because of the bombing, where they were sheltered around Softovic village, in order to protect the people. The army has done nothing wrong. I have not seen anything wrong coming from the army, because I have been in Prelez, Miras villages, Fusma [phoen] village. I have gone there to -- to take people with my car and bring them to Ferizaj to make them feel more secure there. So when I was driving my car, I have seen the army and I haven't seen anything wrong.

Q. But do you know or have you heard about the army ordering people to leave Kosovo?

A. No, no. I don't know of any such case of ordering the people to leave. On the contrary, they have given the people food. There have been also film footage and recordings of what happened. I went myself to these villages that I mentioned. The orders were -- the only orders given were those by the KLA. As to the army, the only order that the army gave us was to stay where we were, and that it told us not to be afraid and that the army was there to protect us, and this is what in fact happened.

Q. You are saying now that the only order to leave Kosovo was from the KLA. Is that what you said?

A. Yes. This is true. Only the KLA gave the orders. Even today the ⁴²⁸¹⁵ order is to purchase the properties of the Serbs, the Turks, the Romas, in order to be clear of them. You can see them -- these everywhere, even in the newspapers. This is not only happening only in Kosova. The purpose is to have it happen also in Macedonia, in Montenegro. This has been the aim since 1985. This is not a recent goal. They have been working for that since -- even my brother has done so since 1997. Hajdin Abazi, Sadik Bali, Xhabir Morina [phoen], all these persons have, and many, many others like them, have been working for this goal. I know them because they have been -- some of them have been my classmates. We have played together. We have stayed together. They came even to me, to talk to me, to convince me as well. How could I train my gun against my neighbour, my brother, when my religion tells me that the first neighbour is your brother and that you shouldn't look at the colour of the face of your neighbour? For this reason, we prevented many things, bad things from happening, and now 80 per cent of -- they have kidnapped my daughter to prevent others like me from coming here and telling the truth. I'm sure that they will go even and get my own sons. I'm certain of that. But nevertheless, I want to come here and tell the truth because God will help me. I don't want the Court or anyone to help me. Only God will. I want to tell the truth because I know that the Tribunal is looking for the truth, and the truth is this, what I'm saying.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Just a few more questions because you have explained this thoroughly and precisely. We have already heard some witnesses from Urosevac, Mr. Krasniqi from Mirosavlje, Urosevac municipality, who stated on the 4th of April, 1999 he had seen military ⁴²⁸¹⁶ vehicles stationed near Softovic village, and they were shelling towards Rakovica and Zlatare, killing four people in Zlatare and wounding five. He also stated that Serbian forces shot at people in Pojatiste, whereas on the 7th of April, 1999, he saw houses burning in Sojevo and Kamena Glava and heard later that seven people had been killed. So it is supposed to have happened near Softovic village, your village. Do you know anything about the events that this witness testified about?

A. Qerim Krasniqi is a member of the KLA. He has testified here for his own profit. It is common knowledge what their personal interests are. There has never been any shelling by the army in our village; only by the NATO. There have been 12 or 13 houses which were shot -- which were shelled by the KLA. Those people who have worked, for example, in SUP. There are living arguments to prove this. Avdi Musa, 35 years old, he has worked in SUP. On the 20 -- on the 12th, when the troops entered Kosova, he was killed only because he has -- he has defended the people, and he has attacked the thieves and the criminals. Qerim Krasniqi is a member of the KLA. Someone by the name of Bajram Plaku [phoen], 70 years old, was a man I knew, and he said that I'm not of an age to go to the army -- to the KLA, and I will stay here and die here, and he was killed. But there was no one else who was killed in Ferizaj municipality.

JUDGE BONOMY: Could you clarify one statement there, that you say the KLA were shelling. Did you mean to say that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They have put mines in those 12, 13 houses in the Ferizaj municipality. They have thought that the owners of these 12, 13 houses served Serbia, and these houses were blown up by the ⁴²⁸¹⁷ KLA with mines. With dynamite, with explosion. I don't know what to say.

JUDGE BONOMY: And the -- sorry, there was one other comment you made. You talked about the 12th when the troops entered Kosovo. What did you mean by that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that just because someone - Avdi Musa - worked for the state security, the KLA killed him. They killed him 100 metres away from my house.

JUDGE BONOMY: I followed that, but what did you mean by the expression when -- sorry. I follow what you are saying, but what do you mean by the expression "when the troops entered Kosovo"?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The NATO forces. When I say "forces," I mean the NATO forces.

JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that they entered Kosovo on the 12th of some month?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the 12th of June, 1999.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You mentioned this elderly man who was killed only because he didn't want to leave his house. He didn't want to leave Kosovo.

A. He had left his home in Pojatiste village. He had gone to his son-in-law, to his daughter's home, and I heard from his daughter that my father wanted to die a hero, and he attacked the police. That was the only case.

Q. Very well. Tell me, now, did you have any personal losses among your family members? Your daughter was abducted. I hope that is not a ⁴²⁸¹⁸ loss. She was kidnapped. But have you had any other casualties in your family?

A. The brother of my wife was killed by the KLA after two months. One of the perpetrators was sentenced to 10 years of gaol by UNMIK. The only reason for that was that he had his kid there and they went and killed him. And a nephew [as interpreted] of mine in Zega village, 90 years old, he said, "I won't leave my home," he was also killed. The KLA killed him. They blamed the Serbs for that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation into Serbian.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a technical problem?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Probably, because I'm hearing you in interpretation, but the witness's reply has not been interpreted into Serbian. I'm reading from the transcript. "The brother of my wife was killed by the KLA after two months. One of the perpetrators was sentenced to 10 years of gaol by UNMIK. The only reason for that was that he had his kid -" and then something empty - "there and they went and killed him. And a nephew of mine in Zega village -" again empty - "years old, he said, 'I won't leave my home,' he was also killed. The KLA killed him. They blamed the Serbs for that."

That has not been interpreted at all, this entire passage. It's missing from the Serb interpretation, so that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I ask the Court deputy to check into the matter. Well, let us continue now and see whether we have the interpretation.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. ^{42819 BLANK PAGE 42820}

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, a witness who testified here, his name is Bajram Bucaliu from Staro Selo, Urosevac municipality - that's your municipality - said that on the 2nd of April the Serb army surrounded Staro Selo, on the 3rd April the soldiers searched houses, then they torched houses, and on the 13th of April three villagers were killed, after which the villagers began to leave Urosevac. What can you say about these allegations, what this witness described? Did it really happen?

A. Bajram -- I know Bajram Bucaliu very well, and we are -- we have friendship, or we are in-laws because the daughter of my cousin is married to a cousin of his. Bajram Bucaliu has always stayed in the -- socialised with the Serbs and the Serbs gave him -- found him a job at the train station, but he is a man with double standards. He is -- he comes from a family that deals in drugs. The -- his in-law, Bajram Bucaliu, has killed someone in 1992 for 36 kilogramme of drugs. He has killed someone in uniform, a traffic policeman, Enver Sola [phoen] is the name, and he has spent his time mostly in Bulgaria and Turkey. And three months ago he was burned.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated].

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not making accusations, sir. This is the truth. If something is not true, I can say so myself.

JUDGE BONOMY: But am I correct in thinking you're referring to a relative of his?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His -- yes, a relative of his. Someone from his family that deal with Bajram Bucaliu and Islamija. I ⁴²⁸²¹ know Bajram very well. I know also his father Islam. I know his brothers because we have married among ourselves.

JUDGE BONOMY: What is your basis for saying he is a man with double standards?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was with the Serbs until the bombing started, and when NATO troops came, now he came here as a witness and lied here. This is what I base my --

JUDGE BONOMY: What's the relevance of the fact that one of his in-laws is a drug dealer? How does that bear on whether he is a man of double standards or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is a man with double standards because until the time of the bombing by NATO he worked with the Serbs. Now he came here to testify against the Serbs.

JUDGE BONOMY: What was -- what was the point in telling us about his in-law who was a drug dealer? I'm trying to understand the relevance of that. Try to answer that question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told this because I was asked what kind of person he is, whether I know Bajram Bucaliu, and I know him very well, and he himself deals with drugs.

JUDGE BONOMY: You see, if he's a drug dealer, why didn't you tell us that before? Why did you concentrate on his relative's drug dealing? I don't understand the relevance of that.

He has now also said the witness is a drug dealer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, may I -- may I say something?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. ⁴²⁸²²

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Judges, I wanted to explain to you his descent, what family he comes from, because it's important. The chip resembles -- the chip off the old block, we say. Bajram is a tradesman, a criminal who didn't know who entered and left his home, and he has double standards and he has given false statements. And he is telling that I am a criminal and my family is criminals. This is why I'm saying that he is a double-standard man.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, what happened to your house in Urosevac? Was it destroyed, was it looted, or is it still intact?

A. First it was raided and then it was destroyed. Both my house and the houses of the Serbs, and the houses of many, many others who did not subscribe to KLA.

JUDGE KWON: You mean your house in Softovic?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I mean the house in Ferizaj, because I lived in Softovic, but in 1991, when I wounded that person, I left -- moved to Ferizaj. From 1992, I've been living in Ferizaj.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When was your house looted and torched, yours and the houses of all the other people you mentioned?

A. On the 12th. On the 13th and the 14th I left Kosova, of June 1999.

Q. When they came under the auspices of the United Nations protection ⁴²⁸²³ mission, that's when they set fire to your house?

A. Yes. Until then, no house was torched, only those that were destroyed by NATO bombing. I don't know what the purpose was for that. I can't say. But the whole village in Babaj, from Relaz [phoen], Prelez, Ulrika [phoen] in Viti municipality, they were destroyed by NATO. When the NATO troops entered, then the houses of the Serbs and the -- of the Albanians that did not obey the orders - of the KLA, that is - were burned.

Q. In the area where you lived, were Shaqir Shabani and Shukri Buja active?

A. Active was Shukri Buja while Shaqir Shabani was outside. He deals with Sali Berisha in Albania, Avdul Bardi [phoen], and so on and so forth, they only conveyed the orders while Shukri Buja was the commander in Nerodimlje. Nerodimlje, which is linked with Jezerc.

Q. Do you know who Hajdin Abazi is?

A. As I said earlier, Hajdin Abazi is a friend of mine. We went to school together. He was called Lum Haxhiu, while his real name is Hajdin Abazi. His nom de guerre was Lum Haxhiu. You could see him on the newspapers and on TV with Holbrooke, in the company of Holbrooke.

Q. That's the person who can be seen with Holbrooke. And where is he now?

A. In this moment he is in Belgium. He has two children, a daughter and a son, and his wife. They live in Belgium.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Tell us, did you have any other problems with members of the KLA after the war? You have already told us they ⁴²⁸²⁴ abducted your daughter, but can you describe any other problems you may have had.

A. Yes. In the beginning, I left with my whole family, and later on my children returned from Skopje to the house of my in-law with the last name Mehmeti, who got killed. Faruk Fazliu, my elderly brother, was taken by the KLA, and he was kept by them for six hours. Amongst those who took him was Ramush Bajralija [phoen]. He was a policeman, a former policeman, and he asked him, "Where is your father," referring to me. So they kept him for six hours, interrogated him and cursed his family. So when I heard that my son was taken, because with my wife I always maintained contact through mobile phone, when I heard this I went in the evening, at night-time, illegally, and I went straight to his family house to see him privately. I said to him, "I am alive. You can go on and kill my son, but I want you to know that I am alive." And I returned, left again, and from that time I didn't have any problems until the time now when this with my daughter happened.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you say earlier that it was the KLA who kidnapped your daughter or did you just say that your daughter was kidnapped?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for my daughter, I can't say who because I don't know who kidnapped her. There are different groups operating.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you misdescribed the evidence in the last question.

JUDGE BONOMY: What is the name of your son who was kidnapped, or ⁴²⁸²⁵ who was held for six hours?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Faruk Fazliu.

JUDGE BONOMY: He is wrongly described in the transcript as your elderly brother.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he is my older son.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, you said that you testified before the UNMIK police in Pristina in connection with large-scale abduction in Kacanik. When did this abduction take place? You mentioned there were 26 people who were abducted. Was this during the bombing?

MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: I would simply like to point out to the Chamber that the Rule 65 ter summary provided to the Prosecution for this witness says the following: "Albanian; cooperated with the police in Urosevac; will testify about his cooperation, his knowledge of the events in that area, and the relations with the Serbs."

Now the accused is asking him about a completely different municipality, and I would at least ask that the accused be directed to stay within the limits of his 65 ter summary. Thank you.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, why are you raising this question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm raising it firstly because it fully fits into what Mr. Saxon quoted awhile ago. The witness is testifying to matters within his personal knowledge. ⁴²⁸²⁶ Secondly, this falls within the context of the expulsion of people which this witness testified about. Twenty-six Albanians were abducted during the bombing. One managed to escape. There was a trial in Kosovo in connection with this. Crimes committed by members of the KLA were ascribed to Serbs. The witness knows of this and of course he should testify about it.

I see nothing that Mr. Saxon could object to apart from the fact that he doesn't like this witness testifying to something that runs completely counter to what is mentioned in these accusations against me in the indictment.

It says in 65 ter here something about cooperation with the authorities. I asked the witness about it. He reported both Serbs and Albanians who committed crimes, and that was what his cooperation with the authorities consisted in. And he was also a forester, so it was his job to do that.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, what is the effect of the 65 ter?

MR. SAXON: The effect of the 65 ter --

JUDGE KWON: Microphone, please.

MR. SAXON: The effect of the one-sentence long 65 ter summary, Your Honour, is to provide the Prosecution, or to put -- better said, perhaps, to put the Prosecution on notice of what this witness is going to deal with in his evidence so that the Prosecution can properly prepare to test this witness's evidence during cross-examination, which is all part of the purpose of a -- ⁴²⁸²⁷

JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that? Where is that set out? 65 ter --

MR. SAXON: Well, it's been -- I received it in a confidential witness schedule number 35, Your Honour. I can give you my copy, if you'd like. I can pass it right up to you right now, if you would like, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm trying to ascertain the purpose of the 65 ter list.

Mr. Kay, can you help us?

MR. KAY: Ms. Higgins.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Higgins.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MS. HIGGINS: As I understand, Your Honour, there isn't an explanation within the Rules itself. It's from, I presume, jurisprudence but I can't put my finger on it at the moment. It seems, in my submission, that the summaries are really used as indicative of the testimony and are not necessarily exhaustive. Your Honours will be aware that the testimony that this witness is being asked to give relates to Kacanik, which is in fact the municipality just next door to his, Ferizaj, and it's clear that he has personal knowledge of events which Prosecution has been given notice of.

MR. SAXON: May I respond, Your Honour? The Prosecution has not been given any notice that this witness has personal knowledge of the events in the Kacanik municipality. How, then, can the Prosecution properly and fully deal with this evidence in cross-examination? And what other reason for this Rule to provide these summaries to the other party ^{42828 BLANK PAGE 42829} in advance could there be than to provide sufficient notice so that the other party can fully prepare to test this evidence?

JUDGE ROBINSON: But if you are embarrassed, that's another matter.

MR. SAXON: I'm not embarrassed. The Prosecution is not embarrassed, Your Honour. We're simply asking -- asking for --

JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't mean embarrassed in a technical sense, meaning that you are taken by surprise, then that could be dealt with in other ways.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I just add something, because Mr. Saxon hasn't been in court when we've been dealing with this on earlier occasions. You will remember that there's a long history of filings about 65 ter summaries, and right at the beginning, I think, from the jurisprudence you can identify two functions served by the 65 ter summaries; management of the evidence by the Court, and that I think became the principal function judged as relevant by this Chamber although other Chambers have held that the purpose is to give the Prosecution adequate notice to prepare for cross-examination. More recently I think the Court has indeed expressed some concerns about the brevity of the 65 ter summaries, of which we've been complaining for a long period of time, without, in the event, requiring the accused to provide much more detail.

However, there did come a time when it amended its practice a few witnesses ago and asked the accused to give an opening statement summarising in rather more detail than was on the 65 ter summary that ⁴²⁸³⁰ which the witness was going to give. Nevertheless we've accepted the Chamber's earlier rulings to the effect that these brief 65 ter summaries serve the purpose of Court management and putting the Prosecution on notice, to the extent that the jurisprudence indicates is its function, for cross-examination purposes.

I have to say, looking at this particular 65 ter summary and listening to the really quite extreme allegations made against individuals, that the Chamber will have in mind that we're going to be completely incapable of dealing satisfactorily with any of those allegations if they are relevant because we haven't had any notice of them in advance, but that's just one of the problems. But I think that's the history of the 65 ter litigation in bold outline.

JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Higgins --

JUDGE KWON: Our microphone is out of order.

JUDGE BONOMY: I'll need to shout at you then, I'm sorry. If you'll excuse me just for raising my voice. Rule 68 allows the Trial Chamber to decide on -- to decide on sanctions to be imposed on a party which fails to perform its disclosure obligations, and that envisages that more than the Prosecutor has disclosure obligations. What other than 65 ter (G), is it, could be described as the disclosure obligation of the accused?

MS. HIGGINS: Your Honours, as I understand it, the extent of the accused's disclosure obligation in relation to the specific, the giving of notice in the summary, it is confined to that alone, and Your Honours have ⁴²⁸³¹ been concerned to not place an over-onerous burden on the accused --

JUDGE BONOMY: But all I'm trying to identify is whether there is a power within the Rules for the Trial Chamber to take action if it considers that there's been a failure to comply with a 65 ter obligation. That's a question of interpretation.

MS. HIGGINS: Yes.

JUDGE BONOMY: And we certainly haven't taken a strong line on that at any stage so far. But would it be reasonable to construe 68 bis as extending to the obligations in Rule 65 ter?

MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, it may also have the power -- if I may address that in a moment. Your Honour obviously has the power under Rule 54 in the orders that the Trial Chamber can make which gives the Trial Chamber a generic power. The interpretation of Rule 68 bis may be open to that. In my understanding, it has not been used in that way prior to today's hearings and prior to these proceedings. There's no jurisprudence that I am aware of that the interpretation that Your Honour has lent or may lend has existed or does exist in the jurisprudence to this extent now.

May I just briefly address one further point in response to Mr. Nice. It is clear, and in our submission evident, that the Prosecution has brought an extensive case in relation to the municipality of Kacanik. If it is the case, and it's not entirely clear to me at the moment, but if it is the case that this witness can give evidence on the movement or the reasons why people were leaving Kacanik, or the motivations as to why people left Kacanik, he should be given the ⁴²⁸³² opportunity to do so, given the limited amount of time within the case for presentation of evidence. And if it is in fact the case that the Prosecution needs time to prepare that, then that may be something the Trial Chamber may have to address.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's what I meant when I spoke of embarrassment.

MS. HIGGINS: Yes.

JUDGE KWON: I have one question to Mr. Saxon. The summary of this witness says like this: "Albanian; cooperated with the police in Urosevac; will testify about his cooperation, his knowledge of the events in that area."

Given that Kacanik is just located nearby Urosevac, will "that area" not include the area of Kacanik?

MR. SAXON: Well, not for the Prosecution, Your Honour. Let me just remind you -- if the accused will let me finish --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let Mr. Saxon --

JUDGE KWON: I understand that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon is speaking, Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour Judge Kwon, I don't mean to make light of your question, but Pristina is also close to Urosevac. One could argue that Istok is also close to Urosevac, as is Stimlje is close to Urosevac.

JUDGE KWON: Just neighbouring municipalities.

MR. SAXON: The point is -- the point is that --

JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Saxon, you didn't object when the witness ⁴²⁸³³ was dealing with KLA bases located in Kacanik.

MR. SAXON: No, I did not.

JUDGE KWON: During --

MR. SAXON: That's because, Your Honour, the witness's testimony about that came in response to a general question from the accused about the location of KLA bases, and I didn't know what the response was going to be. And now I think I'm in a different situation here. We're getting -- the question was formulated regarding events in Kacanik.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, even if you are right that the 65 ter is confining - and I don't necessarily agree with that - wouldn't there be a discretion within the Chamber to allow a question like that?

MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, of course there is discretion with the Chamber.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, briefly.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to draw your attention to one fact: Kacanik is not close to Urosevac. Kacanik belongs to the area of the SUP of Urosevac, the SUP that the witness cooperated with. Kacanik is covered by the Urosevac SUP. So it fully belongs to that area. You can look that up in the documents and also in the map pertaining to the organisation of the police force.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, before we adjourn, I'd think I'd like to decide the matter, not necessarily on that strict geographical point you've just raised, because I think it's a question of principle. ⁴²⁸³⁴

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will allow the question, but we'll break for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So, Mr. Fazliu, you gave a statement to the UNMIK police in relation to what happened in Kacanik. Tell us: When did this happen, what happened, what did you learn, and who were you in contact with specifically?

A. I said even earlier that I worked as a forest-keeper and that my duty was to go to various mountains, houses, villages. And it is known that usually in the mountains the spies and the thieves go to those places, and my duty was to protect the forests. I was very fair in my duty. I tried to perform all my duties. This was why I kept a close watch on the terrain from Strpce, Stimlje, to Ferizaj. Normally it is common knowledge that someone who is dressed in uniform can perform his functions all over the territory of the state, and I have seen in many instances such people, because they trusted me at the beginning. They didn't keep away from me. I have seen the automatic rifles. I didn't report them openly. For example, when a police patrol came by, I warned -- I told them that this and this person is here and here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu, just concentrate on the question ⁴²⁸³⁵ asked by Mr. Milosevic. When did this happen, and with whom were you in contact?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened in 1993, 1994.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And with whom were you in contact?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With friends, with comrades, co-villagers in the mountains, with KLA people.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, proceed. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, what do you know about the kidnapping of these 26 persons that you made a statement about to UNMIK?

A. I mentioned it even earlier. I will do it again. I didn't give to anyone a statement on what I was going to speak here, only the truth that I know.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question. Concentrate on the question asked. I know you have your story to tell, but just listen to the questions asked by Mr. Milosevic, and just answer them as directly as possible.

So that question now was: What do you know about the kidnapping of the 26 persons?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My friend Agim Laniste, who is from Laniste village, Kacanik municipality, a village that is linked with Kacanik, he was kidnapped. He was kept for nine days. When they wanted to send him to Drenica parts through the mountains, he had a clash and, fortunately enough for him, he managed to escape. He came straight to SUP, and SUP informed me about that and asked me if I wanted to meet my ⁴²⁸³⁶ friend. So I had to go and see him because I was informed of his case by his brother nine days before he was in SUP. I could see how he was stabbed with different objects, screwdrivers. They had asked him, "Why do you speak with Serbs? Why did you send wood, burning wood, to Serbs?" Because Agim Laniste had no assignments whatsoever. He came then to me because he couldn't go back to his own municipality. This happened before the bombing, a month and a half before the bombings, and he stayed with me and my family in the same room, and then together with him we left for Serbia when the NATO forces entered. He then returned to his home and he stayed there secretly, like in a sort of house arrest. A brother of his who lives abroad in France, he has another brother living in Belgium, told UNMIK that his brother, referring to my friend, is in house arrest and had been previously kidnapped, and if this is a matter to be tried, then bring it before trial. And if it's not going to be tried, then please help him regulate the documentation and get to Belgium.

UNMIK then intervened, and they went and fetched Agim. Agim then told where he had been and where he had stayed. He gave a statement to UNMIK authorities. Then they called me and asked me how things happened. I told them how I saw Agim, and Agim then told them about the 26 persons, gave their names and last names because these persons were from his village, they were from the area of Viti, and he knew all of them, so Agim gave a statement, and UNMIK has that statement to this date. Correction: UNMIK is protecting Agim.

I then went to Pristina and gave a statement, as I said earlier. ^{42837 BLANK PAGE 42838} Five of the perpetrators have been sentenced. They -- two of them were from Nerodimlje. I don't know the exact date, but they were sentenced three or four months ago for kidnapping 26 Albanians from their own homes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Fazliu, do you know the answer to the following question, why those 26 Albanians were abducted, and when were they abducted?

JUDGE ROBINSON: I am sorry to interrupt. There is a technical problem with the Albanian booth, and we'll stop for five minutes. Five minutes.

I am advised we can now continue, so Mr. Milosevic, you had asked a question, and Mr. Fazliu --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: -- answer.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all kidnapped a month and a half before the bombing, after the KLA took to the mountains in greater numbers.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And you were also asked if you were able to say why they were abducted.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were abducted because they worked with the Serbs and did not want to separate from the Serbs.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is anything known about the fate of these people now?

A. They have all been killed. Agim has confirmed this as well. ⁴²⁸³⁹

Q. Does anyone know who it was that abducted them? Because Agim fled. I assume that he saw who had abducted them. Are the perpetrators of this kidnapping and killing of these 26 Albanians known?

A. Of course the authors are known. Five of them, as I said, have been sentenced by UNMIK authorities, and the others fled Kosova and went to Albania.

Q. These persons who were tried by the UNMIK authorities, were they members of the KLA and, if so, what unit, what group, and from what village or town did they come?

A. They were in Kotlina village. I don't know the number of the brigade they belonged to. I don't know exactly the number of the brigade, but I know that they were in Kotlina. And I'm only saying things that I know 100 per cent. They were from a brigade that operated in Kotlina.

Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Fazliu. Just a few more questions.

The village of Racak is in your area too. Did you see members of the KLA at any time in the village of Racak?

A. Of course I did, because Islam Belince was taken by the Racak army only for having worked in a school, and the forest rangers were stop by in his house and have a rest, and the police kidnapped him just because he welcomed the forest rangers in his house. But his son, who was also kidnapped, was released, and he is a witness to this. He is still alive. I had a friend, Xhim Koshari [phoen], Xhim Idrizi [phoen], and Fadil Idrizi was one of the commanders of the KLA in Racak. He came from abroad, from Switzerland, because he used to work in Switzerland. Ever ⁴²⁸⁴⁰ since 1998, I've known this. He asked for a generator. I asked him, "Why do you need it?" He said, "I need it for my home." And he told me that they were getting ready, getting prepared in the mountains, and I saw with my own eyes that they prepared themselves a year before in Racak village, in Jezerc, and in Kotlina. I know it is true as far as these three places are concerned.

JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Milosevic. I didn't follow you when you said Racak is in his area. You also meant that Racak is under the jurisdiction of Urosevac police? Is it true, Mr. Fazliu?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Racak is 13 kilometres far from Ferizaj, and the police was under Ferizaj municipality, because Racak and Stimlje have only one kilometre in between, while Belince and Racak half a kilometre. As a forest ranger I know this because I used to walk on foot through these villages.

Racak, Stimlje, and Belince, and Suva Reka municipality are connected to Jezerce. We all share a same forest. You can see this on the map as well.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, when he said his area, I actually meant Mr. Fazliu's area as a forester. That's the area where he passed as a forester, because the forests in that area are part of his workplace.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Just one more question about this, Mr. Fazliu. How many members of the -- of the KLA were in Racak? You said that you saw KLA members in ⁴²⁸⁴¹ Racak, Jezerce, and Kotlina. How many were in Kotlina, how many in Racak, how many in Jezerce? Approximately, at least.

A. Approximately the number is above 100. I can't give you the exact figure but there weren't more than that. Around 100, 120, 150. I don't know the exact number, though. But surely they were not under 100.

Q. All right. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I can't see the transcript any longer, that particular part, was this a misinterpretation or something, but, Mr. Robinson, in the transcript it said that the police had kidnapped a man mentioned by Mr. Fazliu.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is that what you said, Mr. Fazliu, that the police kidnapped someone?

A. The KLA. The police does not kidnap people.

Q. All right.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that correction.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you. Just one more question, Mr. Fazliu. Your wife and children still live in Urosevac. Do you fear for their safety?

A. When I decided to come here, and many of my friends would have done the same, but by doing that they would endanger their families and that's why they cannot come here and tell the truth. And to put it shortly, I believe that the same way they're following my movements they could destroy my family as well. But I have made up my mind. I want the ⁴²⁸⁴² Court to know the truth. I didn't come here to defend anyone. Even then when I gave my statement in Kosova, I asked to come here and provide a testimony. Those there were people from KFOR and UNMIK. They weren't from the streets, those people that I asked to allow me to come here, but they asked me what I wanted to say here before this Court, and I told them that I want to tell the truth, and I didn't give any statement prior to this one here.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You fear for your own safety as well?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I know that I am already dead after I finish my testimony. Because one of my friends, Naser Hajziri, was tied to a tractor and killed. Isuf Sakica as well, and many, many others.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I hope that will not be realised and that is a hyperbolic comment.

Mr. Saxon. Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. You mentioned that after the NATO bombing campaign began on the 24th of March, 1999 -- can you hear me, sir?

A. [No interpretation].

Q. I didn't get a translation. Can you hear me, sir? I'm not getting --

A. Now I can hear you.

Q. Okay. Thank you. You mentioned that after the NATO bombing campaign began -- now I'm getting Albanian in my headphones. I'll try again. ⁴²⁸⁴³

JUDGE ROBINSON: Try again.

MR. SAXON:

Q. That after the NATO bombing campaign began, people started leaving Kosovo because they were afraid of the bombing. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that there was -- because of the bombing, there was a lot of stress; right?

A. Yes.

Q. You and your own family left Kosovo in the middle of June 1999. That's what you testified to; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So I guess you and your family didn't feel a great deal of fear from that NATO bombing, did you?

A. Of course we felt a great deal of fear, but there was nowhere we could go. Those who left, they didn't live in good conditions. They had to live in the mountains. But their aim was to remove people from their homes so that the world could see that. I said to myself it's better that they kill my own child in my house than in the mountains.

Q. And on the 14th -- on the 14th of June, 1999, when the Serb forces began to leave Kosovo, you and your family left and went to Macedonia; right?

A. No. I went to Serbia first and then I went to Macedonia.

Q. So there was a place for you and your family to go if you had been afraid of the NATO bombs; right?

A. Yes, I had a place where to go. They invited me to go. ⁴²⁸⁴⁴

Q. And you --

A. But I didn't go.

Q. And you and your family, your wife and your nearest and dearest, stayed in Kosovo for the next two and a half months while that bombing was going on; right?

A. Many members of our family left because I didn't believe that NATO was going to bomb. I thought it was a propaganda. I didn't think that a human being would bomb another human being.

Q. Can you answer my question, sir? Sir, can you answer my question? You and your wife and your children remained in Kosovo for two and a half months after the NATO bombing began; right?

A. Not only my family but families in Prelez, Miraz [phoen], Rahovic [phoen], in Ferizaj municipality. Not a single member left.

Q. You mentioned Bajram Bucaliu, and you made a number of comments and allegations about him, and you mentioned that he worked at the train station in Ferizaj. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall about how many people were employed at that train station in Ferizaj? Must have been a station-master, clerks. Do you recall approximately how many people worked there?

A. I don't know how many worked there because that wasn't of much interest for me.

Q. Well, you see, there's an exhibit that's in evidence in this case - it's Exhibit 63, Your Honours - and it's a log of the train traffic made from -- of the train traffic that went through the Ferizaj railroad ⁴²⁸⁴⁵ station between January and June 1999. And if one looks at this log, you can see different handwritings, handwritings of different persons on it. And I'm just wondering whether you have any comments to make about the character or characters of the other persons who worked at the Ferizaj train station and who might have made entries into this logbook.

A. I don't understand your question very well. In relation to what is your question? What about the train, because the train always moved in the same time, had the same itinerary. So I don't know what kind of answer you want me to give you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you asking him, Mr. Saxon, why he has singled out Bajram --

MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. That's not what I'm asking. There may have been a problem in the translation. I'll try to rephrase my question.

Q. My question is this: Apart from Bajram Bucaliu, do you want to make any allegations about the characters or the personalities of the other persons who worked at the Ferizaj train station? Were they all criminals? Were they all drug dealers? Were they all persons of double standards? If you know. If you don't know, that's fine, you can just say so.

A. As for Bajram Bucaliu, I know that he is like that because he is an in-law of mine. And as for others, there are no relatives of mine, and I don't know anything about them because those that I knew, my colleagues, those who were Albanians, they abandoned their jobs in 1991, and the rest were Serbs. I didn't see people here with double standards who gave ^{42846 BLANK PAGE 42847} statements.

For 15 days my family --

Q. I think you've answered the question. I think you've answered the question.

A. I can give you a longer answer to this question.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu -- Mr. Fazliu, that's enough.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just two more words, Your Honours. I don't have things in writing. I have them here in my head. I want to tell the truth, and I don't want to be interrupted if possible. For 15 days, my brother, my own children were waiting for a train, to get on a train.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu, counsel can interrupt you. If he is doing so unfairly, then I will intervene.

Proceed, Mr. Saxon. Let Mr. Saxon ask the next question now. It's a question and answer system that we have here.

MR. SAXON:

Q. You told us -- sir, you told us a little while ago when I first asked you about how many people worked at the train station, you said you weren't interested in that. Why is it, then, that in response to a subsequent question you told the Chamber that the trains always ran at the same times and had the same itinerary? You see the inconsistency [Realtime transcript read in error "I consistency"] there?

A. No, there is a consistency, but I guess you do not understand me correctly, because I stand by the words that I utter always. ⁴²⁸⁴⁸ My in-law, he was the only one who did not abandon his job. The others, Albanians, abandoned their jobs, and that's why I wasn't interested in others. They were all Serbs, and here we are talking about my in-law. Mr. Milosevic asked me if I knew Bajram Bucaliu. If he asked me about another person, I would have answered.

Q. [Previous translation continues]... cut you off. We've heard your answer. Just a comment in the transcript. At the end of my question in the transcript it says: "You see the I consistency there." That should be: "You see the inconsistency there," just to keep the record straight. Sir, I'm going to move on to a different topic now. You mentioned that in Kosovo, before you left Kosovo, your work was to report everything that was against the law. That was your testimony; right? And that's the truth; right?

A. Yes, that's the truth.

Q. And just to be clear, when you say to report, you were reporting this information to the Serb police; right?

A. The police was joined in the beginning at that time, and it consisted of both Serbs and Albanians. It wasn't purely Serb because it wasn't written on their foreheads who was Serb and who was Albanian. Whoever I came across, these police patrols, I told them. I reported the cases.

Q. Fine. So you reported this information to the police; right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were paid for this information; correct?

A. No. I had a salary as a forest ranger from Serbia sume. ⁴²⁸⁴⁹

Q. You had a salary as a forest ranger, and out of the goodness of your heart and due to the upstanding values that you maintain, you decided that it would be your duty to report things to the police. Is that your testimony?

A. I said in the beginning it's our tradition --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic has a point. Let's hear him.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the question is unfair, because the witness explained that he was a forester, a forest ranger. As a forest ranger, of course that he is duty-bound to report various unlawful actions to the police. What does that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there is no unfairness in the question.

MR. SAXON: If I can simply note for the record that I think any response to my question has just been ruined by the intervention of the accused, not for the first time.

Q. Well, were you -- who did you report to, sir? Who did you report this information to?

A. As I said earlier, to the closest patrol. If I was in Kacanik, that would be the patrol in Kacanik. If the case occurred in Stimlje, then in Stimlje, because I didn't have a designated person to go and work -- I didn't have a designated person to whom to report, because even it's in our Islamic tradition that you should guard your family from evil, from drugs, from anything else that can harm you. And this was not only for the -- my own good or the good of my own family; it was for the good of the entire nation. And my purpose was to defend the people, because the ⁴²⁸⁵⁰ criminals were a minority. They are only 5 per cent. Not all in Kosovo are criminals. Only the 95 remaining percentage of the population are still being harmed by the criminals.

Q. You say it is in your Islamic tradition that you should guard your family from evil and from other things that can harm you. So if you were in the town of Urosevac and you became aware of some unlawful activity, you would go report it to someone at the Urosevac SUP; correct?

A. Of course.

Q. Yes.

A. Even now, as soon as I leave this Court, if I see something wrong, I will report it to the police. Despite the fact that I am here in The Hague, if I see someone with a weapon or with drugs, I will use the first opportunity to report this to the police.

Q. That's gratifying, sir. What would have happened if you chose not to report such information to the police?

A. I couldn't have become a criminal. I was not the only person who reported these cases. And as I said earlier, not all are criminals. They are only 5 per cent. They came from Albania.

Q. Mr. Fazliu, I'm sorry. Maybe my question wasn't clear. Perhaps this was my fault. Let me try to rephrase my question. My question was: Over time there was an expectation with the police of Urosevac that you would report allegations of criminal conduct to the police; correct?

A. No. The police did not force me to do that.

Q. Well, what would have happened if you had not reported allegations ⁴²⁸⁵¹ of criminal conduct?

A. Someone else would report them.

Q. What if you were the only person who knew about the criminal conduct?

A. I really don't understand your question. What do you mean "if you were the only person"? I wasn't the only Muslim person in Kosova. 80 per cent of Kosova are Albanians.

Q. And the point is, isn't it, sir, that you were expected, you had an obligation to report information about the activities of alleged KLA members to the police; right?

A. I've reported that I have -- when I saw the two or three people wearing guns, or -- or wearing uniforms with a KLA insignia, and I knew that they're not bringing something good, and this is a family tradition from my great grandfather that's -- before they were call Balists, and it's like a group go up to the mountain, take women, kidnap them, or -- so I don't know how to explain it in a different way. Of course it is a duty to report it, to report those persons.

Q. Mr. Fazliu, there is a family tradition going back to your great grandfather to obey the law and to report what appeared to be violations of the law. That's your testimony; right? Right?

A. Yes, of course. There were violations of the law. Those people who deal with drugs and weapons, of course.

Q. Do you recall when you told us about this incident back in 1991 when you were in illegal possession of a weapon and you were attacked by three men and you wounded one of them. Do you remember you told us that ⁴²⁸⁵² story?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you explain the fact that, with all of your moral fibre about obeying the law and reporting infractions of the law and the importance of carrying on with your great grandfather's tradition, you yourself were breaking the law by having an illegal weapon? Can you explain that inconsistency?

A. Yes. I was keeping a weapon just to defend myself. And the law itself, it is said in the law that you can keep a weapon to defend yourself. And also, the Muslim religion says that you have to protect, to defend yourself with whatever means. So my -- my -- I was keeping a weapon. I had a permit to keep the weapon.

Q. Well, you see, sir -- you see, sir, but I'm sorry, that wasn't your testimony about an hour or an hour and a half ago. You said, "At the time I was in the illegal possession of a weapon." That's what -- that's what --

A. Yes, it was illegal.

Q. Yes. That's what you told the Trial Chamber. So -- let me finish my question, sir. It's my job to ask you questions today. So my question is: How is it that when you felt it was in your interests to do something illegal you did so, and yet you felt this great duty and obligation to report the alleged infractions of others? Can you explain that?

A. Yes, I can. We were not allowed to keep pistols. We had rifle weapons, yes. I was keeping this weapon illegally, and I told it to the ⁴²⁸⁵³ Court. So the pistol I was in possession of was an illegal one. And even I had -- I was in possession of it even later on.

Q. Sir, that's not the question I asked.

A. Being a forest ranger, I was allowed to keep a weapon, and even this is also stipulated by law. That is the reason for doing so. Nobody gave me any praise for keeping such weapon illegally. I was sentenced for that. I told you.

Q. Sir, did you ever enter the Urosevac police station to give information to the officers there during all this time during the 1990s when you were doing your duty?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether persons questioned or detained at the Urosevac police station were ever tortured? Do you know?

A. No, they were not tortured. Because I've reported it, and I can even say it even now. I just saw it, and there was no maltreatment there, because this was an issue that was taken care by the court.

Q. I see. I'd like to show you a photograph or two, sir. If these could be placed on the ELMO. Start with this one. Take a look at this photograph, sir, please.

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. Is this a photograph taken by Dr. Xheladin --

MR. KAY: Excuse me. Shall we establish a foundation? I mean, I know where the evidence arises, and I think I know what's going to happen as I'm quite used to the Prosecution question --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know this person. ⁴²⁸⁵⁴

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Lay a foundation.

MR. KAY: Well, the answer's been given.

JUDGE ROBINSON: He doesn't know the person.

MR. KAY: Well, it's so obvious that he can't talk about someone else's medical reports who he doesn't know, and he's a forest ranger, and he's been shown the file from a doctor in the area. It doesn't begin to hang together as appropriate cross-examination of this witness --

MR. SAXON: Well --

MR. KAY: -- unless a foundation can be established, and perhaps we should do that before we start exhibiting the pictures on the ELMO for whatever publicity there may be.

JUDGE BONOMY: Maybe the first -- perhaps the first thing that should have been established was the foundation for the witness's assertion that no torture or maltreatment ever took place in the police station.

MR. KAY: I took his answer to be a reference to those people that he'd had dealings with, and the question was asked in such an open-ended way by the Prosecutor that the witness concisely kept himself to his own knowledge.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please move on, Mr. Saxon.

MR. SAXON: I will do that. I will retract the photograph, then.

Q. What is the basis, sir, for your statement that there was no torture or mistreatment of persons in the Urosevac police station? Why do you say that? How do you know that?

A. I'm saying this because at least 200 persons, and I haven't seen ⁴²⁸⁵⁵ other photographs -- if you show the head or the face of a person probably I would have been in a position to recognise him. Just as I am sitting here, I see the faces of people. How could it be possible to recognise a person in such a photograph?

Q. Sir, that's not the question I asked you. You told the Chamber a few minutes ago that there was no torture or mistreatment at the Urosevac police station. My question is: How do you know that?

A. I know this because -- because 200 members of my family -- I'm not lying to you -- is my uncle, and the brother of my mother, and no one ever touched them. I did not report it to anyone, but I told this to my family members. And I'm not lying to you, because no one tortured them. No one did any harm to them.

One of them was tortured, and we can even confirm it even now. So I'm saying what I know.

Q. Sir, I'm just trying to understand your testimony. Are you saying that over time, during the 1990s, 200 members of your extended family were either detained or questioned in the Urosevac police station? Is that what you're saying?

A. No, I didn't say 200 of them. I said of the 200 members of my family, because you asked me about torture. I don't know of anyone being tortured. This is the first time for me to see such a picture.

Q. So just to summarise your testimony, your testimony today that no one was ever tortured or mistreated in the Urosevac police station is based upon your conversations with the members of your extended family, about 200 people; correct? ⁴²⁸⁵⁶

A. I said 200, but I can guarantee you for 3.000 persons not being beaten. People from Judikarak [phoen], Nik [phoen], Belince, Latiste [phoen], Zega villages. I have people I know, in-laws, in all these villages and I don't know of any of them being tortured or maltreated. I know only of one case of someone having attacked a policeman and he was beaten.

During all the time I lived there, I know that only that case happened.

Q. Sir --

A. I have never seen any other -- as to what you showed me here, such picture, I have never seen such picture.

Q. Did you know every one who was detained at the Urosevac SUP between 1991 and 1999?

A. Yes, I know.

Q. You know every single person who was detained during those nine years at one time or another for one reason or another at the Urosevac police station. That's your testimony today?

A. They have been detained in the Urosevac Ferizaj police station when they were captured with arms or with other illegal possessions, or -- it was myself sometimes that have called the police when I have intercepted people carrying loads of goods. They were taken to the police station but they were not beaten.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You haven't answered the question, which is whether you know every single person who was detained in the nine years from 1991 to 1999. It's either yes or no. ⁴²⁸⁵⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said already, of all these persons, none of them, with the exception of a single person who attacked a policeman, the others were not maltreated or tortured. I can't tell anything about other people.

MR. SAXON:

Q. You don't know all of those people personally, because there's simply too many people to know and you were up in the forest; right?

A. I know many people because I covered 12 villages in my area. Recently they have become over 60 villages. I told you earlier from Strpce, to Stimlje, Ferizaj to Gnjilane, that was part of my duty, but I have never seen such tortures that you are telling me of.

Q. Sir --

A. I cannot guarantee --

Q. I'm going -- I see. Now you cannot guarantee. I'm going to move to another topic now because we need to take a break soon. You mentioned that your daughter was kidnapped recently. Did this event occur in Ferizaj?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us, please, the date when it occurred?

A. I don't remember the date, because I want to kill myself when I heard my daughter was kidnapped, at the moment I heard about that.

Q. Can you recall the month when it occurred, when this event occurred?

A. Some five or six months have passed by. I can't tell you exactly how many -- ⁴²⁸⁵⁸

Q. So if we are --

A. -- because I don't feel well ever since.

Q. If we're in the middle of August now, 1999 [sic], then your daughter would have been kidnapped sometime in March or April? Is that approximately right? Does that sound right? Or perhaps February or March?

A. Five month. You can count that. Maybe two, three days more or less, but I know that it's five months since when my daughter was kidnapped. I know that when I was informed of coming here, three days after that my daughter was kidnapped. And when I was here, my daughter called the wife and said that she was alive. My father told me that.

Q. What's your --

A. And I think the reason is myself.

Q. What is your daughter's name, the daughter who was kidnapped?

A. Hazbija Fazliu.

Q. So UNMIK would have a record about this; right?

A. Certainly.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the hour. Perhaps this would be a time to break for today. I have a few more questions for tomorrow.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you be much longer than another five or ten minutes or -- because perhaps you could try to finish today.

MR. SAXON: I think I might be, Your Honour.

JUDGE BONOMY: I take it from these last questions you're going to investigate this matter before completing your cross-examination.

MR. SAXON: Yes. I would like the opportunity to, yes, Your ⁴²⁸⁵⁹ Honour.

JUDGE KWON: I assume there's a typo in line 15, page 83: "1999."

MR. SAXON: I apologise, Your Honour. It was my mistake. We're now in August 2005. It's completely my fault.

Q. Can the witness just tell us which police station the crime was reported to?

A. As I already said, at Ferizaj police station it was reported. You have your telephones, your mobile phones to find out whether what I'm saying is true. I'm here, so you can ascertain everything.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We will adjourn and resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day

of August, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.