⁴⁷²⁵⁸

Monday, 12 December 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I understand you wish to address the Chamber.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, very briefly. Since the winter recess is about to begin, as you know full well, I wanted to ask you to make it possible for me to take advantage of this recess so that I could go to Moscow to the Bakulev Scientific Institute of academician Professor Bockeria for health reasons. See far I've been examined by two experts from that institute, and I have full trust in this institute. It is the top-notch medical institution in Russia. It would not affect your programme in any way, because I would be back here again before this is resumed in accordance with your programme, so I'm asking you to make this possible for me for health reasons. I don't see any hindrance in the way of this because it really would not disturb your programme in any way.

So that would be it in the briefest possible terms.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've been fairly flexible in relation to the presentation of motions by you orally because the Rules allow for it and there is an advantage to be gained by an oral submission in certain circumstances, but this is, in effect, an application for provisional release, which should be made in writing, and you -- I think you very well know that. ⁴⁷²⁵⁹

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I assume that what I say here and what is recorded in the transcript has the same effect as any written submission would.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if we are to even begin to consider this application, there's a host of matters that you'd have to attend to antecedent to our consideration of it. For one, we'd need a medical report in relation to the particular condition that affects you and which you say can be treated adequately in Moscow. Secondly, it's an application for provisional release, which would have to be covered by adequate guarantees. None of that you have presented. So I can't believe that you are serious in making this presentation. I advise that you consult Mr. Kay as to how to put in a proper application, and we'll consider it.

Let the witness be called.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I also have a matter to raise in private session, with the Court's leave.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In private session?

MR. NICE: Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

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[Open session]

WITNESS: JANOS SEL [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

MR. NICE: If the Chamber has the new formulation of these documents, it will see that the English translations come at the beginning in two sections, I think divided by a green page. So the first section is ⁴⁷²⁶³ for the first notebook and the second for the second, obviously enough. The page numbers of the notebooks are at the top left-hand side of each page. There's a separate serial number at the bottom of the centre of the page which is simply for convenience purposes, but one way or another we should be able to find our way through the material quickly. The relevant parts of the notebooks have been identified by oblong markings surrounding the passage in which we have a particular interest. Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

Q. Mr. Sel, do you have the full notebook in front you, copies of the notebooks in front of you, coming your way?

A. No, Mr. Nice, I haven't got it.

Q. It's coming there now. And if Mr. Prendergast would always lay the English page on the overhead projector when I ask him to but not on all occasions because sometimes I will not.

And if you, Mr. Sel, could start with the first of your notebooks. You will have to turn them round that way. Before I ask you the first question, just help me with this: Do you accept that there was any crime committed by soldiers of your unit in the course of the period January to June of 1999? Any serious crime committed by soldiers of your unit?

A. My soldiers, Mr. Nice, did not commit a single serious crime that would be condemned by the unit and that would require the initiation of court proceedings against them.

Q. I see. Would you go, please, to page 4 of your first document; your first notebook, and we see outlined then a reference to a man called ⁴⁷²⁶⁴ Misel Seregi. Probably that's the way it reads. Does that change your thinking at all about the question I gave you?

A. Mr. Nice, Misel Sergei was my soldier until February 1999. In mid-February 1999 I handed over this unit to another officer and I received a new unit, so it was until then that he was my soldier.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... man trained by you, was it then, or looked after by you for long enough?

A. Yes, until February 1999, mid-February 1999.

Q. If we go to page of your diary, page 48, and if the Chamber goes to page 13 at the bottom middle to find it, we can see again at the bottom, listed with a lot of other soldiers, Sergei Misel. So he's there again.

And you know why I'm asking you the questions about this man, don't you?

A. Yes, I know this, Mr. Nice. This is the 30th of July, 1998. This is a list of men who went out on mission to provide in-depth security of the state border.

Q. And to remind the Chamber, if we go on to page 71 of your documents, page 28 at the bottom in the English but page 71 of your documents, you see the name of another person of interest in relation to the question of commission of crimes: Lieutenant Rade Radojevic?

A. Yes, Mr. Nice, the same thing. Rade Radojevic was there until mid-February 1999, so I was no longer his commanding officer after handing over this particular duty in mid-February 1999. Practically all soldiers and officers were then placed under the command of a new company ⁴⁷²⁶⁵ commander.

Q. If we go on to page 31 in the English, date -- or page 89 of your document, page 31 - I'm going to use the bottom numbers for the Chamber, it's probably quicker - we see that you had a patrol in the Kusnin Grcin area. Kusnin in your area of responsibility, wasn't it?

A. Yes, Mr. Nice.

Q. Page 34 in the English, page 110 of your document. Again we see reference to Kusnin. That will do for the time being because you know --

A. Mr. Nice, may I just explain something to you. My unit was in that area. That's when I was the commander of that unit. It was providing in-depth security of the state border, and it is logical that it used patrols to secure the state border. So until the 15th of February I was commander of that unit in that area. From the 15th of February onwards I was transferred to another unit, another area, and I received this new unit there.

Q. Tesic was another soldier in your unit at one time, wasn't he?

A. Yes. Another one of my former soldiers who was under my command until the 15th of February.

Q. And finally, Lieutenant Colonel Mancic is a person who features. We can see him in your diary, I think, in your notebook in due course. Just explain the position: Mancic was the security representative in your unit; correct?

A. No, Mr. Nice. At that time he was not in my unit at all. When I left that unit, he came. Only later, that is; March 1999. That is to say that I was no longer in that unit when he came. So I personally do not ⁴⁷²⁶⁶ know the man and I never saw him, because the area of that unit was about 20 kilometres away from me.

Q. Never saw Mancic at all?

A. No.

Q. You know, and we'll just remind the Chamber of this, that the four men, Mancic, Radojevic, Sergei, and Tesic, were one example - almost the only example - of people tried for war crimes and they were tried in respect of an offence committed at Kusnin, weren't they?

A. I don't know, Mr. Nice, when that crime was committed, but I do know that they were convicted and that they're serving their sentences in prison.

Q. We know, and we're going to look at the transcript of the trial which we have in due course, but you'll know this in any event, that the only reason there was a trial for war crimes of these people was because the young soldier Tesic gave himself up. He reported himself for what he'd been made to do by officers above him. You know that, don't you?

A. I know something about that, Mr. Nice, but I don't know at all about Tesic reporting these officers and that comrade of his. I don't know what that was all about. I know that proceedings were there against them and that they were convicted.

Q. And you know that this act of probably perceived disloyalty to the VJ by Tesic only led to a trial after this accused was surrendered to this Tribunal. There was no trial in 1999 or 2000, was there? Those men were only tried after this accused was surrendered to this Tribunal. Do you know that? ⁴⁷²⁶⁷

A. I don't know about that, Mr. Nice.

Q. Very well --

A. Who carried out proceedings and how, I don't know.

Q. We'll come back to that, assuming time allows, in a little more detail later. My next questions, with the Court's leave, should be done in closed session, please. It's the matter that I was given leave to deal with last week in private session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Closed session.

[Private session]

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[Open session]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. NICE:

Q. Before I move on to new matters, particularly new matters, remember last week I was asking you in general terms about activity in the Babaj Boks area, and I was asking you about offences involving rape there. Is it right that offences of rape were committed in that area, to your certain knowledge and at your instructions?

A. Mr. Nice, first let's get one thing straight: Soldiers B and D were not my soldiers, and please doesn't mention them to me again. Soldiers A and C left the unit in June 1998. That means they left the encampment where they were undergoing regular training. So these soldiers did not take part in any combat activity or any operation in that place, nor were there any rapes in that period or anything of that kind.

Q. In general throughout the period 1998 and 1999, there were attacks on civilians in their houses and in their villages under a policy whereby ⁴⁷²⁷⁷ many of them were killed at your decision. That's the correct position, isn't it?

A. Mr. Nice, I'm telling you again this is completely untrue. I don't know how you got that statement from those soldiers. Even the way you took it is subject to dispute.

Soldiers, when they are in a camp, cannot leave it of their own will. They can go in an organised manner for medical check-ups, they return in an organised way, and in the same organised way they go out for training. And there was nothing of the kind in Babaj Boks, because we were not in Babaj Boks but in the area of Sulane, where we had regular training. The picture you're trying to paint is completely inappropriate, because it's untrue.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... on the overhead projector, or I think it fits on the overhead projector, and I'm not sure, has it been given an exhibit number? Not exhibited yet. May it have an exhibit number?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. NICE:

Q. To remind the Chamber, in the area we've just speaking about is to the south-west of Djakovica, I'm now turning to the area north of Djakovica near the --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have the number.

THE REGISTRAR: That will be 937.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

MR. NICE: 937. ⁴⁷²⁷⁸

Q. By the lake there, Radonjicko Lake, we see to the west Gornji Bites. You say you never went to the lake yourself, Mr. Sel, don't you?

A. No, I have never been in that area.

Q. Who was in charge, then, of the soldiers at the lake?

A. Mr. Nice, sometime in August, pursuant to orders from the battalion command, one of my platoons was engaged in securing the dam on the reservoir. The commander was Radojevic Rade, who was commanding a battalion of military police.

Q. How long was he there for altogether?

A. Around 15 days.

Q. Were you aware of killings at Gornja Bites of men and women and teenage children?

A. I know nothing about that, Mr. Nice. I know that the military police battalion undertook combat operations against terrorists who were located above the Radonjicko Lake or reservoir.

Q. Well, if there were combat operations in 1998, still peacetime, and if those combat operations led to deaths, they would have been recorded, wouldn't they?

A. Mr. Nice, the rule of service and the legislation stipulates how the army is used in peacetime. I don't see anything strange about that. All the regulations say that the army is used against terrorists, not against unarmed civilians, women, or children.

Q. Well, tell me, then, please, if you didn't understand the question the last time, if there were combat operations in 1998 and if in the course of those operations people were killed, where do we turn to find ⁴⁷²⁷⁹ the records of the deaths and of how the deaths were investigated? Because we haven't found the documents yet despite every effort. Where?

A. Mr. Nice, that was an area in the -- or, rather, outside the area of responsibility of my unit so I don't know about it. I can't tell you anything because I don't know.

Q. You sent Lieutenant Rade Radojevic, subsequently to be convicted of murder, as we know, you sent him up there. Did he report back to you? Did he provide daily reporting records of these combat operations?

A. Mr. Nice, you have to distinguish between providing security to special-purpose installations and combat against terrorists. This platoon went to secure the dam, not to engage in combat with terrorists, and that soldier was not engaged in combat activity.

Q. I can take that no further. I'll move on swiftly to see if there's anything else I want to cover from the general topics I was exploring last week.

Now let's move to something rather different. The topics I'm now going to raise with you come from Soldier C, and as you know, you're to say nothing in open session that might identify this person. Do you understand that, Mr. Sel?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Now, this soldier, and you know his identity because that's been dealt with in private session and you realise you must never reveal that to anyone outside this room, but you know him and you know something of the circumstances of his joining and leaving your unit. I must suggest to you, coming from him, that you operated a policy where civilians were ⁴⁷²⁸⁰ killed pretty well at will in the course of ambushes and similar operations. Is that right?

A. Mr. Nice, we are at cross-purposes or we totally misunderstand each other or you know nothing about military matters. This has nothing to do with murdering civilians. If you think a civilian is somebody who carries 20 rifles, machine-guns, mortars, and ammunition and opens fire at my soldiers, if you still consider them to be a civilian, then please stand up against them. I would like to see you defending yourself.

Q. The suggestion I'm putting to you is that in what was nominally peacetime, you sent out units on a regular basis to ambush, in the middle of the night, any Albanian you could find moving, especially if they were moving towards or from the border, regardless of whether they were armed, regardless of whether they were men intending to fight. Is that true?

A. That is completely untrue. That is something you made up. Everyone knows what an ambush is meant for. I'm telling you again, you know nothing about military matters and that's why you can't understand.

Q. Mr. Sel, you must carry on being offensive if you think it's helpful or if it's what you've been advised to do, but please answer the questions. In peacetime, why is an ambush an appropriate way of dealing with people who may be entirely innocent?

A. Mr. Nice, I'm telling you again you do not know anything about military matters. I don't want to take an insulting tone, unlike you. An ambush is simply meant to stop -- to stop anyone who is moving unlawfully in the border belt.

Now, tell me, what could armed civilians be doing when they cross ⁴⁷²⁸¹ over the state border in an inappropriate place, from Albania, carrying weapons? If you think they're going for a walk or going shopping, it's your problem.

Q. You had a policy as well of getting -- of getting Muslims to kill incoming Muslims wherever you could, didn't you?

A. That's not correct, Mr. Nice. In my eyes, every soldier is just a soldier, regardless of ethnicity, faith, or anything else. He is a soldier as long as he is in the army and as long as he is under oath, and we never discriminated on any grounds.

Q. You told --

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, did you mean that question, a policy of getting Muslims to kill incoming Muslims?

MR. NICE: Incoming Albanians, yes, I did. Albanians, yes. Albanians rather than Muslims. Getting Muslims to kill Albanians coming in.

Q. You did nothing, did you, in your unit, or so far as you know in the others, to alert soldiers to their duties under the Geneva Conventions, either at this time in 1998 or when war was declared; is that right? Not war was declared, after a state of emergency was declared.

A. Mr. Nice, that is completely untrue. All soldiers were familiar with the rule of conduct for the armed force. Every soldier knew what he is allowed to do and what he isn't allowed to do. They carried this booklet with them, and every unit commander was familiar with the fundamental rules of military law, and we abided by the Geneva Conventions whereas the terrorists didn't. ⁴⁷²⁸²

Q. There was simply -- not even -- I must suggest to you not even a pretense at applying or teaching your soldiers about the Geneva Conventions until after the young soldier Tesic reported himself for the killing that he had been made to do in April 1999; isn't that right? It was only when he turned himself in so that you could no longer be as lawless as you had been that people started saying something about the duties in war; isn't that right?

A. Mr. Nice --

Q. You realise we're going to look, assuming I get time --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: Sorry.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not correct. That's completely incorrect. Soldiers were trained for their job, for their duty. Everybody knows what the role of the army in peacetime is. It was not engaged in any unlawful activities. If there were individual violations, perpetrators were prosecuted in a timely manner. All soldiers were familiar with their obligations and duty, and I'm telling you again, every soldier had this rule with them and they were read a lecture on the Geneva Conventions and international --

MR. NICE:

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- law of war. Just a minute. In every combat order great attention was paid to underline respect for civilians, conservation of property, and the rule that fire must not be opened at anyone before fire is opened at you. ⁴⁷²⁸³

Q. Look at the list of names, remembering that you must say nothing to identify them. There was an occasion in June of 1998 when Soldier A and Soldier C were ordered by you to go and kill a farmer tending his cow. Do you remember that little detail?

A. Mr. Nice, that's not true at all. First of all, I don't know what all this is about; and secondly, where the army is, it is common knowledge how far civilians can come up close. So there was no need to open fire on any civilian just to issue a caution to say that they had approached the camp, which they were not supposed to do, not to kill civilians. That is your arbitrary conclusion or an attempt on these two men to gain something by making a statement to that effect.

Q. And the only reason that they were able to let this man live was because they weren't surrounded by or in close proximity to Serb soldiers, because if Serb soldiers had been around, they would have known that the pressure on them was so great they could hardly resist your order. On this occasion, the man with the cow escaped. Think back. Are you really suggesting that this detail's been entirely created or does it have some connection to something you can remember, Mr. Sel?

A. Mr. Nice, it is entirely created.

Q. I see. Very well.

A. In my unit, that is to say the number of soldiers I had - please allow me to finish - there were not only Serbs, there were Hungarians, Romanians, Czechs as well, and other ethnic groups in addition to Muslims. So that was the strength of my men. It was a multinational unit, not a ⁴⁷²⁸⁴ purely single ethnic unit.

Q. Keep your eyes on Soldier C, please, on the list. When he first joined your unit, you gave instructions how to behave, and in the course of giving those instructions, which were instructions how to kill, you announced that you had yourself killed a six-month-old baby, taking it from its mother's arms. Do you remember saying something about that to a group including Soldier C? Do you find that amusing?

A. Mr. Nice, please stop making these fabrications. All this is a farce that has been made up and stories told. It's not correct at all. I'm a professional soldier. I'm a professional soldier, and my attitude to my profession is professional. I'm not a criminal. I'm not a killer or murderer of women or children or anybody else. I carried out my duties professionally, Mr. Nice, and everything that you're trying to do now is just a concocted story.

Q. 1998 is still a time of apparent peace. Can you show us, please, the records of what happened to the people who, in the ambushes near the border, died? Can you show us the records if your operation was so lawful?

A. Mr. Nice, while my unit was providing in-depth security for the state border, there was no intervention on its part.

Q. You dug a big pit, didn't you, on Morina Mount, and that's where some of the bodies were buried. Did you bury bodies at Morina Mount?

A. Mr. Nice, my unit wasn't in the area of Morina at all. It was at Sulane, Rogasca, where it was engaged in training. Now, Morina and the watchtowers there and Kosare is quite another area altogether and comes ⁴⁷²⁸⁵ under the responsibility of quite another unit. I was never in the area myself nor any of my soldiers.

Q. When villages were entered and when people were killed, booty was obtained. What happened to it?

A. Mr. Nice, I don't understand that question of yours. What booty? War booty is the weapons you come across that are seized from other people; parts of uniforms, communications devices, and anything else that these people carried with them. There was no other war booty and we never entered inhabited areas to kill civilians.

Q. Well, then, the product of plunder --

A. [No interpretation].

Q. Tell me, was there a special policy in relation to cameras, that cameras were always set on one side for fear of the soldiers using them to photograph events that would reveal the crimes that were being committed? Were cameras always set on one side, and or is that detail, suggested to us by the people to whom we've spoken, simply a fabrication?

A. Mr. Nice, I don't want to read from -- out from the rules of service, but soldiers doing their military service are prohibited from having on them cameras or anything else that records in video fashion. So please refrain your questions to what refers to my unit. I can't give you answers to other questions concerning other units, just concerning my own unit.

Q. Now, look, please, at Soldier D. You say he wasn't in your unit, he was in somebody else's unit, but the propositions coming concern you and I'd like you to deal with them. This soldier was there until the ⁴⁷²⁸⁶ agreements in the summer of 1999 that will led to --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that this Soldier D was in some other unit. All he said that he wasn't in his own unit. Now, whether such a soldier exists or does not exist, he cannot know that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Yes, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE:

Q. Tell us about Rambo, please. Who was Rambo?

A. I don't know who Rambo is. Rambo, if you think -- if you're thinking about Sylvester Stallone, then perhaps.

Q. No, Rambo is a nom de guerre, a pseudonym. Who was he?

A. Mr. Nice, I don't know any such commanding officer. And we don't call each other by our nicknames but by our rank, first name and last name. And it is strictly prohibited to assign nicknames or to call each other on the basis of nicknames. We address each other on the basis of rank, name and surname.

Q. Is it right that in 1998 the area of Smonica, which we can see on the map - I'll just find it - was an area of particular difficulty for you?

A. Mr. Nice, from the period of May up until August 1998 along the Djakovica-Ponosevac road, there were about 20 soldiers who were seriously wounded, and Smonica was the strongest terrorist stronghold.

Q. And was that -- so my suggestion is right; it was a place of great ⁴⁷²⁸⁷ difficulty. Is it right that it was so difficult for you that people were killed indiscriminately; men, women and children? Is that what was happening there?

A. Mr. Nice, if you recall when the first statement was given when you asked me a similar question, all civilians, because of pressure from the terrorists, Smonica, Donje Nec, that general area, Ramoc, left their places and went to Djakovica. And those villages were organised for defence and it was only the terrorists that were in the villages. There were no civilians there.

Q. The information presented to the Prosecution includes that, far from there being KLA people for you to attack in these villages, the KLA typically withdrew ahead of the army's, the VJ's arrival, and all that was left was civilians who were at random killed and sometimes allowed to go. Isn't that the truth?

A. No, that's not true at all. Explain to me who dug the trenches, the communicating trenches, dugouts, shelters, firepower positions for mortars and machine-guns? Who brought in all that weaponry and left the anti-armoured mines along the roads? This is something that the villagers did, this is something that the terrorists did who tried to do certain things that they weren't supposed to do.

Q. Soldier D, there from -- right through to the end again says, "No instruction about the Geneva Convention." Can you explain that?

A. Mr. Nice, that's not true at all. First of all, if the soldier exists in a unit with the officer we mentioned, then he was at the 120-millimetre mortars, which means two kilometres away from that area to ⁴⁷²⁸⁸ three kilometres away. He never entered that area nor did he see what there was there. And I and my soldiers crossed that entire area on foot, as opposed to him, and saw what there was there. I'd like you to have been with me. Then I'd see what story you'd be telling now.

Q. I'm not sure I understand your answer. It must be my mistake. I asked you whether he'd been instructed about the Geneva Convention and you said, "If the soldier exists in a unit with the officer we mentioned, then he was two kilometres away from the area." From what area?

A. Mr. Nice, I repeat, you don't seem to understand military matters. 120-millimetre mortars are for fire power support, which means that they target at a distance, as opposed to a motorised company which takes part in the fighting directly. So that's where the difference lies.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pursue whichever policy you find helpful so far as your attitude to me and the Court is concerned, but I still come back to my question. I asked you about the Geneva Convention and you replied with an observation about Soldier C being two kilometres away from "that area." Well, what area; and what was there for him to see in that area that's relevant to the Geneva Conventions? The random killing you were engaged in?

A. Mr. Nice, I'm going to tell you again: All the soldiers to the very last soldier working as a cook are well acquainted with the provisions of the Geneva Conventions, and each soldier had with him a booklet of conduct of soldiers in war and laws governing war. So regardless of the fact whether they were in rifle units, motorised units or reinforcement units, they were all well acquainted with the provisions ⁴⁷²⁸⁹ of the Geneva Conventions. And before they went on assignment, attention was strictly drawn to the soldiers about their conduct toward civilians, behaviour toward civilians, to cease fire in case of encountering unarmed civilians, and a general respect for an armed -- a wounded adversary. And if I said that he was at a distance of two kilometres, that means that when we cleared up the terrorist stronghold of Smonica, the firepower position was two kilometres behind us from which we were given support, so --

Q. Very well.

A. -- there wasn't anything that could have been going on without us seeing.

Q. Witness D, not Witness C; my slip. Can you explain, please, how it might be that Witness D says he saw soldiers with red berets and apparently being Red Berets in your general area? Were they there?

A. Mr. Nice, in the army of Yugoslavia you have a number of different berets.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. Every special -- well, not special, but every unit. Then you have reconnaissance men.

Q. Just help me with this and we'll move on. Were special units coming from, say, Belgrade as part of a Red Beret unit or not?

A. Mr. Nice, I'm not aware of that, because where my unit was active they were not there, so I can't tell you something I don't know about, that I'm not aware of.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. ⁴⁷²⁹⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. In the transcript there is no mention of what the witness said, so I suppose there was no translation. He said that the red berets were born by reconnaissance men, scouts.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. NICE:

Q. There wasn't a problem with head gear, was there, whereby you all had to get new head gear and got red berets, or anything like that?

A. Mr. Nice, that is just not true. I repeat again -- you switched my microphone off now. You just switched my microphone off now.

Q. I have no control over your microphone.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Please have the microphone switched on.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then somebody else does. Mr. Nice, I repeat again: The motorised unit, infantry units, those linked to the equipment, had grey berets. The scouts had red berets, and military police units had black berets.

MR. NICE:

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... incidentally, for us how using mortars in peacetime where the mortar lands a couple of kilometres away is other than indiscriminate use of force? How can it be so targeted as to ensure it hits only the KLA and not the civilians? Can you help us with that?

A. Mr. Nice, I repeat again: In the area where there was combat, there were no civilians. Secondly --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this is a peacetime -- this ⁴⁷²⁹¹ is a --

A. Allow me to finish. We have our reconnaissance men, our scouts.

Q. There is peacetime, isn't it. No state of emergency, civilians living there, tending their cattle, and you can send mortars in peacetime a couple of kilometres away at a village. Is that what you used to do?

A. Mr. Nice, you're not understanding military matters again. That is the legal use of the army in peacetime, in an anti-terrorist struggle. So the terrorists have the right to kill our soldiers and commanding officers, do they, to wound and maim them, and we don't have the right to defend ourselves, is that it? We never opened fire first ourselves. And secondly, when we did open fire, we strictly saw that we opened fire at targets where the shooting was coming from, because we have our observers, we have our calculators who provide us with the necessary data for our firing not on civilians but strictly at firepower.

Q. So far, moving up until the end of March 1999, you've provided me with no answers to the general question where can we find a -- a listing of the people who were killed, where were they buried, how were they taken away. Just confirm to me that you're unable to help with any of those details for the period up and until the end of March 1999.

A. Mr. Nice, in the area where combat operations were taking place, where my unit was engaged in anti-terrorist struggles, we did not come across a single killed or wounded terrorist. We found the traces of blood and traces of people being dragged across the earth, but we didn't actually find any wounded or killed terrorists.

Q. And -- ⁴⁷²⁹²

A. So I assume that the terrorists who survived pulled them out and took them elsewhere. What they did with them, I really don't know.

Q. By the second half of April of 1999, the problem with the bodies that you were killing, or the people you were killing was becoming more problematic, and is it right that all units, that's Soldier D's unit but also your unit, were making use of the Obilic electric plant to the West of Pristina?

A. Mr. Nice, that's not correct at all. There were no civilians nor was there any killing or anything else.

Q. What isn't true about my suggestion about the Obilic plant?

A. The Obilic electric plant performed its function. What else was going on there I don't know, it was far away from me, but what you're thinking about, none of that was done.

Q. Just what am I thinking about?

A. Because we could not have --

Q. What am I thinking about, Mr. Sel?

A. Well, Mr. Nice, you want to ascribe to me certain crimes that were taking place in the area which never happened.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. They never happened.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. Or rather, to ascribe it to my unit and to me.

Q. What am I suggesting to you about the Obilic electricity plant, please? Tell me.

A. Mr. Nice, you mentioned the Obilic thermoelectric power plant; I ⁴⁷²⁹³ didn't mention it.

Q. You seem to understand the suggestion I'm making. Let me make it clear: The Obilic plant was used by the soldiers to burn and destroy the bodies of the people they'd killed, wasn't it, and you knew that because you were one of the officers involved in it.

A. That's not true, Mr. Nice.

Q. So if Soldier D describes this as a general practice applicable to all units at that time, he's completely made it up, has he? A detail as precise as that, completely made it up?

A. Mr. Nice, that's just not true. It's pure fabrication.

Q. The Deva border checkpoint, was that within your general area of operation or not?

A. Mr. Nice, I held positions from Maja Kraljica to Cafa Vanez, which means there was no checkpoint in the Deva region, because the watchtower was hit by a NATO airstrike and there was no road leading up to it. So I don't know what checkpoint you're thinking of. It's a slope at an altitude of about 1.000 metres, which means it's a mountain, and there was the area of defence of my unit up there, above the watchtower, and there was no checkpoint at all.

Q. Were there Albanians in that area, seeking to -- I beg your pardon, were there Kosovo Albanians in that area, seeking from time to time to get across to Albania?

A. No, Mr. Nice. When I arrived on the 5th of April, on the basis of the reports by my subordinates and the deployment of the units, we established that there were no civilians where my unit was deployed. What ⁴⁷²⁹⁴ happened before my unit arrived, I really can't say.

Q. Before your unit, might it have been Elifat Feta who was in charge of that particular area?

A. I'm not aware of that. In the area there was just the border unit which came under my command.

Q. On the 24th of March --

A. And he was elsewhere. Where he was, I don't know.

Q. Were you present when Vukovic, as it were, rallied the troops at the start of the NATO aggression, as it's described, on the 24th of March? Were you present when he did that?

A. Mr. Nice, there was an order for anti-terrorist struggle which we received in the evening, so it was only us company commanders who received this order for an anti-terrorist struggle, not him.

Q. Soldier D says that at that time Vukovic told him and others that the Albanians had to be driven from Kosovo and there should not be even an Albanian ear left in Kosovo. Can you think of some troop-rallying phrase by Vukovic that might have been remembered as that, or do you say that that's completely made up?

A. Mr. Nice, let me repeat again: The order for an anti-terrorist struggle was issued to us company commanders. He was not able to address the units because there were NATO airstrikes going on at the time. In the Djakovica barracks, all the units were at their positions.

MR. NICE: I'm going to go through the diary now, and, Your Honours, if I use the English page number for the Court and the -- systematically, and the diary page number for the witness, it will ⁴⁷²⁹⁵ probably enable us to go through as swiftly as is possible.

Q. Before I do, one other detail: As to a 60-millimetre -- as to a mortar, is it right that it destroys pretty well everything within a 60-metre radius?

A. No, that's not correct.

Q. Would you go, please, to English page 7, your page 35. Not on the overhead projector. Yes, not on the overhead projector. You see part of the way down part 35, 14 people at the lake. Would that be the lake we've been referring to?

A. Yes, Mr. Nice.

Q. Very well.

A. Fourteen soldiers with Lieutenant Radojevic that went up there to secure the dam.

Q. Further on down that page, immediately under the name Sergei, you see a reference to the name Sipka. It's all in your hand. Is that Milan Sipka?

A. No, Mr. Nice. Those are ways in which we differentiate between them. It says Sipka Sulane. They are indicators and distinctions. You have distinct points which end with the guards in order to have them perform their duties, so they are distinction signs, which all armies in the world use these distinction signs.

Q. It actually reads, does it not, Sipka something Sulane?

A. Sulane, yes.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. Because you always have the same starting letter. The second word ⁴⁷²⁹⁶ needs to start with the same letter.

Q. Very well. Let's move on, then.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what is the estimate for your cross-examination?

MR. NICE: My intention is to finish by the end of the next session. I have to do one exercise with this book and I have to do an exercise with something else. It may be less. Can we go on, please, to page 11 in the English, the 12th of July, 1998.

Q. This is lay an ambush above Mazrek towards Sisman Boks. There's one indication in your documents to the fact that you were indeed ambushing people. You weren't arresting them and taking them prisoner, were you?

JUDGE KWON: What was that English page number?

MR. NICE: Page 11, I'm so sorry. 11 in the English, 45 in the diary -- in the whatever it's called, the notebook.

Q. "Lay an ambush above Mazrek towards Sisman Boks."

A. Mr. Nice, this ambush above Mazrek towards Sisman Boks ensured communication towards Smonica. That is to say Djakovica, Ponosevac, Junik, that general line or road.

Q. Did we ever get a record of what actually happened in one of these ambushes; how many people were killed, whether any prisoners were taken? We don't, do we?

A. Mr. Nice, let me repeat again: Had anything happened, had there been any combat, it would certainly have been written down in the report ⁴⁷²⁹⁷ to the superior command.

Q. We haven't got those, you see, and I want to know what happened in peacetime in these ambushes. Let's go over, please, to English page 12, your page 47, and again it's a very rapid reference. We can see "3 more going to the lake tomorrow." The lake had quite a lot of your attention, didn't it, sending people there?

A. Mr. Nice, you have soldiers up there, so it's one set of soldiers taking the place of the other soldiers. There are 14 soldiers. If three go on furlough, you have to fill up that number and bring it up to strength.

Q. Page 13 in English, 30th of July 1998, top entry, "ambush going according to plan." But we still don't know what the product of the ambush was.

JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't say "ambush going according to plan."

MR. NICE: No, it says, "according to plan." Your Honour is quite right.

Q. How should we read that, Mr. Sel: "Ambush according to plan"? What does that mean, on page 48?

A. It means that regular security is being maintained and that somebody has been sent up to the Jasevica-Ponosevac-Junik road in the region we mentioned a moment ago.

Q. But it's still --

A. And let me repeat again: Had there been any combat, then certainly that would have been recorded in the report going up to the brigade command or, rather, my report would have gone up the line and then ⁴⁷²⁹⁸ further up the chain onwards. Since that did not happen, then there was no report to send of that type.

Q. Are you really saying that all these ambushes that we've seen and we're going to see perhaps more of actually led to nothing happening? Nobody died, nobody captured; nothing?

A. That is correct, Mr. Nice.

Q. For the totality of 1998, nothing happened in Babaj Boks at all. You just laid ambushes and never saw a soul. Is that what you're suggesting?

A. Mr. Nice, the unit was not at Babaj Boks, it was in Sulane. Sulane is above Babaj Boks and that is a different place. We were just carrying out our regular duties. At least, my unit did not clash with armed terrorists who were carrying weapons but --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- in other places there were such cases.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sel, what persons were the object of this, of the ambushes that were laid?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the aim of that ambush was to prevent armed smuggling from the Republic of Albania into the territory of Kosovo, thus arming terrorists. So these ambushes were not placed in order to capture civilians but to prevent smuggling arms from the territory of the Republic of Albania in Kosovo.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We will take the 20-minute break now.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.54 a.m. ⁴⁷²⁹⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice. I'm bound to say for myself I'm not finding this exercise very helpful.

MR. NICE: Sorry to hear that. I'll try and make it more helpful because I think a full exploration of this book will be of great assistance in the arguments the Prosecution is going to make. But to save time, let's deal with it in this way, just to get through a few pages: You will find references to ambushes again on English pages 19, 20 and 22, which is pages 59 and 60 of the original. We will move on from there.

Q. Just one general question, or one proposition. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Sel, that your troops acted frequently in a state of drunkenness, aided by drugs, and it was necessary to have them in that state to get them to do the things that you needed them to do.

A. Mr. Nice, that's not correct at all. What you're saying is quite arbitrary. It is strictly forbidden to drink while on duty in the military, and also the use of narcotics is prohibited, so all of that is incorrect.

Q. So let's go to page 62 of your document, page 23 in the English. Still in 1998. Perhaps you'd like to explain these entries to us. First of all, it refers to tying-up cord being taken along. Then at 0800 hours, it refers to a mobile radio, and then it says this: "Civilians --" well, you read it out to us in case it's been translated in a way that you're not happy with. Fourth line down, "civilna lica --" go on, read it out.

A. Mr. Nice, it says here: "The said persons who do not have documents, do not have legal documents issued by the MUP, that is to say IDs and residence permits, in the area should be arrested and brought in." ⁴⁷³⁰⁰ And, of course, handed over to the security organs or, rather, the MUP organs that are in charge. Because there were quite a few persons hiding in the houses of civilians who had proper documents and whose residence was properly registered.

Q. Please just read the language that's actually on page 62. Read it slowly and the interpreters will translate it for us. All right? "Civilna lica ..." and so on. You read it.

A. Once again, Mr. Nice: "Civilian persons who do not have documents should be arrested and tied up." That means handed over to the organs in charge.

Q. That's not what you said the time before. You didn't say tied up. Help us. What does "tied up" mean? Hmm? It's in your book.

A. Mr. Nice, at that time our units had the same kind of powers like the MUP unit. That is to say all persons who do not have documents and who are in the border belt, that means that they came from the Republic of Albania, so it was our duty to arrest them, tie them, and hand them over to the appropriate authorities.

Q. Look, Mr. Sel, which version do you want us to go away with? You've tried two. Were you or were you not tying up the civilians with rope?

A. This was one of the tasks. However, we didn't find anyone without documents so we didn't have to tie anyone, arrest anyone, or bring anyone in.

Q. You see, the first time you read that passage out you omitted the passage about tying up. You put it in another way. ⁴⁷³⁰¹ What are you doing in peacetime tying up civilians with rope? Hmm?

And this one can go on the overhead projector, please, Mr. --

A. Mr. Nice, obviously you don't understand me. This was an order. If one came across such persons who do not have residence permits for the border belt, that means automatically that that person was not from there, that that person was hiding in there, did not have valid documents. So we were duty-bound to arrest these persons, tie them, and bring them in.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. Because it was possible that these persons were armed or that they had --

Q. Very well.

A. -- hand grenades, so we had to take measures with a view to preventing that kind of thing from happening.

Q. Now, I don't have time to explore all these questions or, as one of the learned Judges once said, to batten -- tie them all down or knock them all down. Down the page, Munja. We all heard about Munja. It's a famous paramilitary group. What is Munja doing in your handwriting in this book?

JUDGE ROBINSON: What page is that, Mr. Nice?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... Munja. Extensive reference to Munja in "Under Orders." We've looked at it; photographs, everything.

JUDGE KWON: What page? ⁴⁷³⁰²

MR. NICE: 23 in the English.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, you've misunderstood this. Munja is the first reserve frequency of channel 500.

MR. NICE:

Q. Very well.

A. And it has nothing to do with any paramilitary organisation. It's only the members of the army who were there. Munja is the first reserve frequency --

Q. Very well.

A. -- on channel 500. That is a normal code. Now --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- the fact that it overlaps with something else ...

Q. Over on the left-hand side we've got Karlo 118, Jovica 121. Four lines down we've got Sel 110, and then we've got Rambo 120. You denied knowing anything about Rambo, so perhaps you'd like to explain that to me.

A. I don't know. Possibly this was an abbreviation of the name and surname of the officer involved. Well, it's not that strange. There were persons, officers who had that kind of names; Rambo, Tarzan, Bruce Lee. I was not their godfather, I wasn't giving them their names. These are the names of officers who were engaged in this mission.

Q. You told us it was forbidden to have nicknames, you told us you didn't know who Rambo was, and here he is. Just perhaps you'd like to tell us now what his name is.

A. Mr. Nice, it's a normal name. I wasn't his godfather, it wasn't I who decided what his name would be. It's a name like any other name given ⁴⁷³⁰³ to a child when a child is born or, rather, the officer.

Q. Mr. Sel, it's obvious, isn't it, that these people on the left-hand side, including you, are people with forces at your command. You've got 110, by the looks of things, unless I'm wrong, or maybe it's a radio frequency, I don't know, but these are commanding officers of some kind or another. You didn't know who Rambo was, now you do. What's his first name, Rambo? Is it Rambo Rambo or is it something else?

A. I don't know. I don't know that. I don't remember that. But these are the names of all the officers who were on the unit --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- in order to maintain communications.

Q. -- bottom of the page, same page, but for you it's page 63, top of page 63, please, Mr. Sel. "Zylfaj Prusa" cleansing or cleaning. What does it mean? Prusa is a place, isn't it?

A. Mr. Nice, these are abandoned border posts, our summer border posts that became the headquarters of the terrorists. When terrorists came from the Republic of Albania to our territory, that is what they used. And as for cleaning, cleansing, I've explained it several times here but if you don't understand, I will read out yet again what it means.

Q. So cleansing has to do with moving people about, does it?

A. Mr. Nice, the regulation of a platoon in a mountainous -- in a mountain unit is very clear, and I've already read it out and I thought that it was perfectly clear what cleaning meant; cleaning the terrain from remnants of terrorist groups. That is a shortened version, but if you wish, I'm going to read out from the regulations. ⁴⁷³⁰⁴

Q. Thank you very much. What we know is that Prusa was being cleansed, whatever is meant by that, on this particular day, yes?

A. I repeat yet again, Mr. Nice: Zulfaj and Prusa are abandoned summer border posts that the terrorists used as their strongholds.

Q. Before I move on, Witness D identified, without any access to any material, Rambo as the person who was in charge of the business of moving bodies to -- I'll come back to Rambo in a minute. We'll move on. Just over the page, please, English page 24, still on your page 63, there's a second reference to Munja, beside Reserve 540; Munja. Did you know about the Munja paramilitary group? Yes or no.

A. Mr. Nice, this is a reserve channel, code Munja.

Q. Very well. Let's turn to English page 26, your page 66. Now, you'll see in page 66 - I'm not sure whether it's been highlighted - a reference to Pusto Selo. We can see it halfway down our page. Is Pusto Selo in your general area of responsibility?

A. Yes.

Q. It's right, isn't it -- and it stayed within the general area of responsibility of your unit right through until the end of hostilities in June of 1999. It's right, isn't it, that Pusto Selo, although it's not charged in this indictment, was the location of a --

A. That's not correct, Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, sorry. It's not correct. In 1998, on the 2nd of August, anti-terrorist action took place in that area and these are excerpts from the assignment that I got from the battalion commander, so if you carefully had all of this translated, that's what it says: The line of anti-terrorist fighting, terrorists ⁴⁷³⁰⁵ noticed, about 300 men, also what they had; sniper rifles, recoilless guns, machine-guns, bunkers, shelters, and they are on that line. The KLA headquarters is in the village of Vranjak, so this is information about the enemy or, rather, terrorists.

Q. Mr. Sel, just as the Obilic power station, you understood the allegation before it was made. Pusto Selo in March 1999 was the subject of a massacre of a hundred civilians, wasn't it? It was in your area of responsibility. Do you know how they died?

A. Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, in that period our unit was not in that place at all. We explained very nicely that the anti-terrorist action started on the 25th and we explained where it was actually taking place; along the axis of Bela Crkva, Brestovac, Mala Hoca, Randubrava, Retimlje, Neprebiste, Mamusa. There is no mention of Pusto Selo. Pusto Selo is on the other side completely. It is outside the area of responsibility of our unit, and this is the year 1998, the 2nd of September. So if you take all of this into account, please have a look at the map and you will see for yourself.

Q. I'll ask my questions so we'll have the answer. Page 27 in the English, page 68 for you. The setting on fire of the stacks, fences, and then something about the houses and a word illegible. You might be able to read the word yourself on page 68. You can see it on the original at the bottom left-hand side of 68. "Kuca" something. So what does that mean? "Setting on fire of the stacks, fences; houses" something.

A. Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, if you read my notebook that carefully, you could have read the following: "The setting on fire of stacks, fences, ⁴⁷³⁰⁶ and houses, no." So this was just a form of jotting down what was said. So it was not allowed, the random setting on fire of haystacks, fences and houses. Don't laugh, Mr. Nice. Read it carefully. It says "ne"; "no." I know what you want, but --

Q. We thought it might have said Nay but the translators weren't prepared to say Nay. So if you read it rather more carefully, it actually says, "The setting on fire of stacks, fences; houses, no." Now, then, what are you doing writing in your book anything about the setting on fire --

A. Mr. Nice.

Q. Please listen to me. What are you doing in your book saying anything about the setting on fire of haystacks unless it was happening?

A. Mr. Nice, it's not a semicolon, it's the letter I. So it means "and." So it's a continuation of the sentence. That is one of the measures that is communicated to the soldiers before going out on mission. So what I've said is most strictly prohibited. They are not allowed to do any such thing. If they do it, then they will have disciplinary measures taken against them. I think that you will understand that.

Q. Well, what pattern of setting on fire haystacks, fences and houses had there been that led to it being necessary to give this instruction, please?

A. Mr. Nice, there was no pattern and there was no order. This is one of my measures regarding the soldiers. That was something that the soldiers were not supposed to do. And they were not allowed to violate this rule. So it is not possible that they did things like that because ⁴⁷³⁰⁷ that would not look like things that soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia did. That was not our mission.

Q. Well, they weren't supposed to slaughter. They weren't supposed to rape, were they?

A. Mr. Nice, again you're presenting these arbitrary facts. Soldiers were not slaughtering or killing innocent civilians. Please don't go on about this.

Q. Page --

JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sel, it is a good question. Why would you specifically give such orders about something that is so obvious that any soldier wouldn't need to be told about it? Now, that would suggest it had been happening and they needed to be reminded. That's the question you're being asked.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, this is my own statement. This is what I am conveying to the soldiers by way of my order. I'm not allowing them to do things that are impermissible and that do not pertain to the work of soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia. So that is the way I protect the buildings there and the population, if there was any population left there. So the point was that that kind of thing was banned. I did not allow soldiers to do that. This is my measure prohibiting things that are not permissible. So if -- any kind of violence, any kind of torching of property, destruction of property is not allowed.

JUDGE BONOMY: But the very point you've just made: It doesn't say any form of violence is prohibited. You've been very selective in ⁴⁷³⁰⁸ what you've said and that's why you're being asked the question. You haven't said, for example, "You mustn't slaughter civilians," and I'm curious as to why you've chosen these particular items to include in an order when they're out of line, obviously, with all the stuff that goes before on the same page.

MR. NICE:

Q. Do you wish to answer His Honour?

A. Mr. Bonomy, this is a work notebook where I enter my own obligations vis-a-vis the superior command and vis-a-vis my subordinates. This is one of the security measures, and it is well known what soldiers, members of the units, are supposed to do vis-a-vis civilians as opposed to armed terrorists.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

MR. NICE: I've tried to put the generality of the allegations made against you by Witnesses A, B, C -- by Soldiers A, B, C and D, but I should just add this detail: Coming again without access to your documents or anything else from Soldier C - and you can remind yourself Soldier C only 1998, as you would say, longer period otherwise - he says that people were -- that soldiers used gas bombs, or it may be gas, in the houses to disable the inhabitants. The soldiers went in and plundered everything and then set the houses on fire, destroying the corpses in the process.

Now, that's the allegation that's included in the allegations made against you throughout 1998 and 1999. Is there truth in that?

A. Mr. Nice, there is not the tiniest bit of truth in that. I've ⁴⁷³⁰⁹ already said that these were statements made to your associates a year later in order for these soldiers to get some benefits. They were in the unit for five days, regular training, on the camp premises. They did not take part in any kind of combat action. When they left the unit, they never came back to it.

Q. Very well. Let's look at just a few more entries in your diaries to see what's there and what is not. Page 40 in the English, 16th of January, 1999. Your page 137. And it's for the 16th and you can see the block that surrounds it. All right? "Impact rifle brigades bring 22," and then "berets Beograd." "Berets Belgrade." What's all that about?

A. Mr. Nice, a few moments ago I said to you this is my work notebook where I entered my personal obligations vis-a-vis superiors and vis-a-vis subordinates. So this is my work plan. This has to do with the list of officers and soldiers who will be in the organs that provide security on the state border. We had to know exactly who was where at what time. If somebody got killed, we'd have to know where this person was. Whether a soldier went out on mission, whether he got killed there, whether he came across a mine, and so on and so forth.

Q. Two words: "Berets, Belgrade," and we have got an eight-line answer that hasn't answered the question. Now will you tell me, please, what "berets, Belgrade" means. Does it mean Red Berets?

A. Berets, Belgrade.

Q. Beograd.

A. Mr. Nice, those are distinction marks. It has nothing to do with berets from Belgrade or any kind of berets, because, for a sign, you ⁴⁷³¹⁰ always take part of military equipment and for the second part of the sign you take the name of a town or a mountain. So a beret is part of a soldier's equipment, and Belgrade is the name of a town. So we took two words, as we usually do, with the same initial letter. I cannot say "Shotka Beograd [phoen]" because that wouldn't be right.

Q. Very well. Let's --

JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not understanding this, I'm afraid. A distinction mark for what?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, all armies of the world when they secure a camp, a barracks, military installations, use distinction code names that consist of one item of military equipment and the second part of that code name or distinction code uses the name of a town or a mountain. Those code names are used by guards to distinguish between one another, and the shift leader --

JUDGE BONOMY: So which military installation does this refer to?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a camp which was the location of the unit. The broader area of Damjan.

MR. NICE:

Q. Move on rapidly. We see on page 100 -- 47 in the English, 164 in yours, which is still in -- actually, we'd better focus a little more on 164, and maybe the Chamber will want on this occasion to go to the original as well. At some stage.

164, the outline passage, refers to masks doesn't it? Those are gas masks, protective masks. Yes?

A. Mr. Nice, if you read my work notebook carefully, look at the ⁴⁷³¹¹ date, 15th March 1999. That was the hand-over, take-over of duty of the company commander. Those are items of equipment that I found in the storage at the moment of transition of duty between the old company commander and the new one.

Q. I see.

A. Those are the equipment and ammunition that I found in the warehouse, in the depot. Look at the date, the 15th of March, and it goes on.

Q. Let's go on to your page --

A. All the items were inventoried.

Q. Let's go to your page 166 -- and I think the Chamber may want to see this in the original.

JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, is this a different hand-over from the change you talked about in mid-February? This is a different --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I handed over my unit in mid-February. That means I spent one month in the battalion command and on leave. On the 15th of March, the transition of duty procedure started between the new and old company commanders, the person from whom I took over. On that occasion, you have to inventory all the equipment.

MR. NICE:

Q. Let's have a look at page 166 in the original. It can even go on the overhead projector. No, don't worry about that because we haven't got two copies, but the Chamber may want to look at this. On the 24th of March of 1999 -- there's nothing in the English, we didn't get this translated. I might have done, but I overlooked it. But on the 24th of ⁴⁷³¹² March of 1999, we can see a whole lot of preparation for an operation, can't we? Yes?

A. Mr. Nice, this is the 24th of March, after we received orders from the battalion commander. On the basis of that order for anti-terrorist combat, I established a combat group and listed the equipment that they were taking.

Q. Now, if we go over to page 168, we come to the 28th of March. So that there is no entry of yours, none, to cover the period 25th, -6th, and -7th, is there?

A. Mr. Nice, the system of reporting within the unit, this personal contact with the commander because he wasn't far away from me physically, I informed him through the messenger and through communications. All that happened during the anti-terrorist action was in the communications.

Q. Simple point: Simply no record. I hadn't yet suggested that you should have kept a record, although indeed we've heard from other witnesses that records should be kept on a daily basis, but still, there simply is no record in your hand of what you did. You've produced to this Court exhibits 3 -- in the Delic exhibits, the number of which is 1 -- I don't have the number of Delic exhibits, but it's tabs 363, 388, 379, 411 -- 399 yes, Your Honour, I'm grateful; 399, 411 and 499, all of Exhibit D300.

JUDGE KWON: 419.

MR. NICE: 419. Thank you very much.

Q. You've produced five statements setting out what you say is the detail of what you did on those days. Can you tell me, please, where the ⁴⁷³¹³ detail came from, since you made no record yourself?

A. Mr. Nice, first of all, I can't imagine how you can make notes during combat. There was no power, there were no basic items to enable that sort of work. We had to advance all the time to break up terrorists on our axis. We had no time for making notes. All reports were given to the battalion command, and on the basis of that, the battalion command made their reports to the superior command, and they kept a war diary. I, as a rule, do not write operation reports and do not keep a war diary, but it is my duty to inform the battalion command or battalion commander of everything that happened on my axis, which I did personally.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... remember when these statements were made, if they were made by you, to the VJ Commission for Cooperation in 2002?

A. I wrote the statements in person. Nobody suggested to me what to write and I don't know what other people wrote. What I wrote I wrote on the basis of what I remembered and what I went through.

Q. Well, when you wrote these statements it was all -- already three years and more after the event. You set out times, you set out trig points; all sorts of detailed events. We don't have time today to go through them in detail but the Chamber's alert to them. Where did you get all that detail from, Mr. Sel?

A. How could I not know it? I had the battalion commander's order. I received certain features, the axis for anti-terrorist combat, all the elements. Of course I know them. It doesn't fade from memory that easily. ⁴⁷³¹⁴

Q. I see. So you can remember every detail now, can you?

A. Of course.

Q. When did you last --

A. As for combat actions, I can remember everything.

Q. I see. You can remember the name of all the trig points that you went to, can you?

A. The line of taking up positions was on the Brod feature, trig 430, and in the evening I reported to trig 450 near Velika Hoca. Those features are etched in my memory.

Q. Well, the ones we have got etched in ours are 430 on 432, but maybe I'm getting it wrong. I'll come back to that if I have time. So you remembered these details, but can you help us yet with the name of the man Rambo? First name, rank, last name? Can you? If you can't, we'll go on to what you reported on the 28th of March, but before we do, just tell us this: You say you didn't have time to make notes. You spent a day in Mamusa, didn't you, waiting to right your upturned tank. You could have made notes then.

A. Mr. Nice, if you listen to my testimony and read my statements, you know that I had two soldiers injured and one killed as well as that tank. My main idea was to save lives, transport these soldiers to the hospital and not to write novels.

Q. Let's go to the 28th of March, then, when, although you were still, I think, on the action, you recalled this - it's on the English page 48, halfway down - "Soldiers review, seize all technical goods and pile them up ... radios, caps and civilian items." ⁴⁷³¹⁵

A. Sorry, I'm not receiving interpretation.

Q. Page 168 in your document, and it's the end of the blocked entry, and it reads: "Soldiers review, seize all technical goods and pile them up ..."

Well, had your soldiers -- I don't wish to be too -- well, you just tell us where those technical goods came from if they aren't the product of looting. "Technical goods"; what does this mean?

A. Mr. Nice, this is the 28th March 1999 when I arrived with my unit in the area of Bistrazin. In the area of Bistrazin my unit was not alone. These are tasks given by battalion commander to me. That means that all units were duty-bound to conduct an inspection and to carry out these tasks. I didn't find anything on my soldiers, and I reported to that effect to the battalion commander.

Q. So if I understand this, seize all technical goods, but there were none, pile them up, but there were none to pile up. Is that what it amounts to? You had an expectation that they would have some looted property, but lo and behold, they didn't. Is that really what you're saying?

A. Mr. Nice, I'm telling you again: This is one of the tasks received from the superior command. We had to conduct an inspection of the troops, and if we find anything, we had to assemble it in one place and turn it over, to avoid abuse. I didn't find anything on my soldiers, and I informed the battalion commander so. So that was one of the tasks within the anti-terrorist operation that was conducted in the place of rest. We had to inspect the troops and see if there had been any cases of ⁴⁷³¹⁶ robbery or looting.

Q. Page 50 in the English, 175 in your version, please. And you're now disarming civilians, tying them up and handing them to the security organs. Whereabouts?

A. Where is that written?

Q. On page 175, in the block at the top right-hand corner, unless the translators have erred. There's the word "laundry," and then following the word "laundry" there's a reference to civilians. Perhaps you'd like to read it out.

A. Mr. Nice, as I said earlier, in that period the area of defence of my unit was attacked by a terrorist group from Korenica area. So in case we encounter any armed civilians, we were supposed to disarm them, because an armed civilian would not be allowed to move about the area of defence of my unit, and I had to provide combat security for my unit. So no civilians, regardless of whether they were Serbs or Albanians, could not walk about armed in the area of defence of the unit. So if we came across any such civilians, we were supposed to disarm them, tie them, and turn them over to the appropriate authorities.

Q. Did you find any and tie them up?

A. No. Apart from the terrorist group that attacked me and, after a short struggle, withdrew in the same direction from which they came.

Q. 178 in your documents, please, page 52 in the English. Have a look at that. Here's something interesting: You see underneath the listing of numbers of officers, non-commissioned officers and soldiers, "Check for the rank of the officer from Krajina," and then something, and ⁴⁷³¹⁷ then "Republika Srpska." Were you being reinforced at this time by forces from outside?

A. No, Mr. Nice, those are not troops. The commanding officer who was in my unit in that border unit, he asked me, because he had completed his school and later transferred to the army of Yugoslavia, his status had not been quite regulated, and he hadn't yet received any reply to his query about his rank, and the rest refers to the strength of the unit in that area, the unit under my command.

Q. What about the Republika Srpska? There's one from the Krajina. Or is it the same or is it different?

A. Well, that's what I said a moment ago; it was a commanding officer who had completed an appropriate school, and after his job in Republika Srpska, he transferred to the army of Yugoslavia, but the issue of his rank was not settled. And through me, because I was his superior, he requested that his rank be recognised. That's nothing strange about that.

Q. We'll come back to page 178. Go to page 179. What about the Russians and their visas? And then a reference to involvement of volunteers from the RS. Perhaps again you'd better read the phrase out. You see the little block there? Read out the first thing: "Question Russian visas." What does it say to you?

A. That concerns the members who came of their own accord to the unit as volunteers. All of them were placed --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- under my command.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of what? Where were the ⁴⁷³¹⁸ Russians coming from? You're saying individual Russians came down, did they, to join your unit?

A. They were there when I came, and they raised the issue of their visas.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. They wanted their visas settled.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. I had four of them in my unit.

Q. How long had they been in your unit?

A. Sometime until May.

Q. What were their names?

A. So they left after a relatively short time. I didn't know their names because they were in the border unit --

Q. So when they came --

A. -- under the command of a different commander.

Q. They came in May of 1999. How were they able to get into Kosovo to come and fight in May of 1999 when the NATO [inaudible] was well under way? Just tell us.

A. They were there in the area when I arrived.

Q. What, as tourists?

A. It was not me who brought them, they were in the border unit.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... well, who did bring them? Because other countries' forces fighting in a particular battle is something that's likely to be recorded somewhere. How did the Russian soldiers, if that's what they were -- were they soldiers or were they ⁴⁷³¹⁹ tourists who chose to become tourists?

A. They were not tourists and they're not what you think you were, nor were they army members. It's just that they felt it was their duty to come.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. I found them there when I arrived.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. I'm telling you I don't know because they spent a very short time in my unit. I came to that area on the 27th of April. They were already there in the area, and they left in May.

Q. In the English, the date is incorrect. It should be 27th of April. And what about the next line but one. Just read that to us, please.

A. 27th.

Q. Next line but one after Russians, what does that say?

A. "Military service books." That means that --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... next line.

A. -- those soldiers who lost their service books -- activating volunteers from Republika Srpska.

Q. That does look like a little bit like you've got volunteers from Republika Srpska despite your earlier answer. It's a little hard to read, "activating volunteers from the Republika Srpska" as anything other than meaning activating volunteers from the Republika Srpska, isn't it? So what did you do to activate these volunteers?

A. Mr. Nice, during the NATO aggression against our country, lots of ⁴⁷³²⁰ people felt it was their duty to come and defend the country against the NATO aggression, and that's one of the issues that was raised when I arrived --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- what to do with those people.

Q. Let's go back to page 178. Still on page 52. Village of Bob. Well, we know where Bob is; we've seen that. I've lost my map. It's not here. But you just tell us what is meant by "elderly woman slaughtered, man thrown to the well"?

A. Mr. Nice, this is a report from my patrol that was kept contact with my right neighbour, which was the territorial detachment from Djakovica. According to the information they gave me, they had found those two bodies in the well. I wrote that down to report it to the battalion command. As far as I know, the battalion command sent a forensic team and military police to the site, to the location, and they found nothing from what I read from their report.

Q. Soldiers reported on an old woman being slaughtered, or an elderly woman being slaughtered and a man thrown down the well, and nothing was found by the authorities.

A. It was not the soldiers who found them. There was the leader of the patrol, which was a commanding officer, and it was his duty to make a report after making contact with his right neighbour. He reported what he heard, and I reported it to the battalion command. The battalion command sent an appropriate team, an authorised team to investigate.

Q. By the end of April of 1999, the majority of the slaughtering may ⁴⁷³²¹ have already been done, and it may have already been obvious to you that the battle with NATO wasn't going to be won. Would that be accurate? The first part, the majority of killing had perhaps been done already. Right?

A. Mr. Nice, I have to repeat something that I've already said many times: On the 5th of April, when I arrived in that area and took up positions to secure the state border, there was not a single civilian in my area. That's one.

Second, I don't do killings of civilians.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. I'm not a murderer.

Q. Nor do your troops.

A. Neither I nor my troops, and I can guarantee that.

Q. Am I right in thinking that by the end of April it was known that the battle was lost? That's one of the reasons, I must suggest to you, that the Obilic electric plant was being used to burn and destroy evidence of the bodies, but is it right that by the end of April it was known that the battle was going to be lost?

A. The battle was not lost. The battle was lost at the negotiating table.

Q. Was it?

A. I don't know why. It's not my job to know. I was an officer. I was waiting for NATO forces to start the ground invasion and then I would ask them how they --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- feel, but they didn't dare. ⁴⁷³²²

Q. Next page, please. 53 in the English, your page 180. Two points. You see the block that surrounds the passage in which we have an interest. Again Deva seems to be within your zone of interest at the moment, is that right? Just yes or no. The border area of Deva.

A. Mr. Nice, the watchtower Deva with its entire crew, the border soldiers, came under my command. That is former military post 7238/8. And the post and packages that came to that address was forwarded by me to the new address.

Q. Now go to the 30th of April and read out the first two entries. We look at them - the translation doesn't always reveal this - these have got two stars besides them, two asterisks in your own hand. Matters of great importance. Just tell us what they read, will you.

A. The first two notes, the first has to do with engineering preparation of defence positions, shelters, and the accent is on the preparation of shelters and covers. The second note is related to destruction of alcohol, the consumption of which was strictly prohibited. Further on, because of NATO airstrikes the targeted also civilian targets resulting in a lot of destroyed and killed cattle. There was Catholic population there, and there were lots of pigs, there was --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- uncontrolled slaughtering of pigs.

Q. And was there -- yes, we'll come to that in a second.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I suspect the first line of translation may need correction in the English.

Q. Would you please, Mr. Sel, just read the first line and we will ⁴⁷³²³ correct the English because it wasn't what I was expecting when I'd seen an earlier draft. Can you just read, without comment, the first line, please.

A. First line: "Shelters. Accent or focus on shelters." I don't know how it's translated in your version.

Q. "Zaklani" would be "slaughters," wouldn't it?

A. This is incorrect, Mr. Nice. I'm telling you nicely what is written. "Shelters," or cover, "focus on cover." Because of NATO airstrikes, we had to prepare proper shelters and cover.

Q. Now, would you please read without comment --

MR. NICE: Your Honours, I think any ambiguity in the first line is beyond resolution in the time available.

Q. Now will you please read, without comment, the entry beginning with "alcohol."

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The difference is only in one letter between "zaklani" and "zakloni."

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're hearing a comment from the interpreter. What's that?

THE INTERPRETER: There is only different letter between the two words "zaklani," "slaughtered," and "zakloni," "shelters."

MR. NICE: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks.

MR. NICE:

Q. Can you now please read, Mr. Sel, the second entry, beginning with the word "alcohol." ⁴⁷³²⁴

A. "Alcohol to be destroyed, pigs to be driven out, not to be slaughtered any more." That has to do with cattle -- livestock, rather.

Q. Assuming it is cattle and the word wasn't picked up in the translation, what were the people doing slaughtering cattle in any case?

A. Mr. Nice, there was no need to slaughter livestock because we had our regular supplies. But because of NATO airstrikes, a lot of livestock was killed, and you know that pigs eat anything, and some soldiers tried to pen in pigs and then slaughter them before holidays to eat them, but that was strictly prohibited to prevent infection and disease. So if any pigs were found, they had to be driven out and there was a prohibition on their slaughter.

So the only thing that was allowed was to replenish supplies with meat from regular sources.

Q. Of course with the Muslim community there aren't that many pigs kept for eating, are there, but --

A. Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, a moment ago I said that there was a Catholic population living there, too, and as opposed to the Albanian Muslims, they do keep pigs.

Q. You see, we've heard quite a lot of evidence that not only were people killed and their property looted but that their animals and livestock were slaughtered wantonly in the start of the campaign. Is that what you're referring to here, if this does indeed refer to cattle?

A. Mr. Nice, this is an order by a superior command. So it was my duty as the unit commander in that area to review the units, to destroy any alcohol, if I find any, and to look after -- to look after the ⁴⁷³²⁵ livestock, that if there were any intentions of slaughtering any cattle, to let them roam free and to prevent the slaughter of the cattle. Because we had regular supplies, food supplies coming in to us, so we didn't need to slaughter the cattle for meat.

Q. I suggest that's not what it means, you know what it means, and it has something to do with the acts of criminality that you were engaged in, Mr. Sel.

A. No, that's not correct, Mr. Nice. That's your opinion.

Q. I want you to consider, please, some observations made in the course of the Mancic trial.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, we have transcripts of the hearings of the trial. Interesting themselves because, for the four accused the trial hearing occupies only 112 broadly typed pages, but of course there's always the investigative judge's contribution. For convenience, I ask that the Chamber may want to follow it themselves in the original without prejudice as to whether it's moved into evidence as an exhibit. Otherwise, I'll lay the pages on the overhead projector, and we have the parallel pages in B/C/S for the witness to follow, and I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 -- a little more than seven entries I want him to consider. He doesn't need to have the --

Q. This is the trial that happened in 2002, as I've already explained, of Mancic, Radojevic, Tesic and Sergei or Sergei, and the first entry on your page 16 reveals, doesn't it, how Tesic said that Radojevic and Mancic ordered him to do the killing of the civilians that lay at the heart of this case. You know about that, do you? ⁴⁷³²⁶

A. Mr. Nice, that is the area of responsibility of another unit so there's no need for you to give me those notes because, as I say, that unit was 20 kilometres away from my area and I don't know what they were doing. If they had indeed something or committed anything, then they should be held responsible.

Q. The Kusnin murder occurred on the 11th of April. We've had sight of Vukovic's diary which says that on the 5th of April you were sent to Kukaj. Kukaj is in the same area as Kusnin, isn't it?

A. Mr. Nice, Kusnin and Kukaj are about 20 kilometres away as the crow flies. Kukaj is near the Deva watchtower. Take a map and have a look.

Q. Moreover Tesic, Sergei and Radojevic had all been under your command at the time when they entered into service in this area, hadn't they?

A. Mr. Nice, what I'm telling you is that you're not well versed in military matters. While I was responsible for the unit, where those units were under my command, that is to say until the 15th of February, I guarantee that they had not committed any crime or anything similar to that. Now, what happened when I left the area, I really don't know. So I state again, if something happened, then they would have been held responsible for it.

Q. On page 29 of the English and going over to page 30, what Tesic said was that they weren't told how to treat the two civilians apart from killing them, but he then said this - top of page 30, and it's highlighted for you on page 16 - "I did not hear about the existence of any Geneva ⁴⁷³²⁷ Convention regarding protection in wartime. None of the officers ever told me anything about wartime treatment of non-combatants." So that covers, on any reckoning, your period as well as anybody else's. Tesic, the soldier for whom in due course Vukovic was going to go and give character evidence in support of him, never told about the Geneva Convention.

A. Mr. Nice, there's no mention of my name anywhere there, so as I say, this is quite useless because this happened in the area of responsibility of another unit. So I do not know what happened over there.

Q. Whatever the --

A. So there's no need for me to discuss something that was -- didn't take place in the area of my responsibility, so I am responsible for the situation in my area of responsibility and my own unit.

Q. All right, then. You point us to the contemporaneous record of your briefing of your soldiers, including Tesic, where they were given a lecture about the Geneva Convention. Just tell us. Where can we find it?

A. Mr. Nice, as far as I know, that is to say the professional organs would come to the unit and hold lectures about war law and the Geneva Conventions, they talked to the soldiers about them, and I said that each soldier had a separate booklet about the conduct of soldiers in combat, and so did all the commanders. They had the basic tenets of war law. They didn't go without that. So apart from being acquainted with it, they would have the brochure on them, with them, and at any rate everybody is responsible for their own conduct and behaviour. Now, I'd have to go ⁴⁷³²⁸ through all my work --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- notebooks to find that.

Q. This is something that, for example, your brother officer, Captain Rangelov, would know, wouldn't it?

A. I don't know. You'd have to ask him that.

Q. Because, you see, if you -- just for the --

A. It happened in his area of responsibility.

Q. Exactly. And we've got some more entries to look at before we get to Rangelov, but since you make the point, be so good as to go to your page 26, and we'll go to our page 52 in the English. This is Rangelov speaking in court. And what he says is this: "After I received information about the event -" which is the killing at Kusnin from Lieutenant Radojevic - "I subsequently met Major Mancic in the presence of Lieutenant Radojevic. I told him this shouldn't happen any more, that I as a company commander wouldn't permit it. After that, I started including in my orders items about treating the civilian population, prisoners and wounded men in accordance with the Geneva Convention." Even your brother officers acknowledge to the Court that there was no pattern of instruction about the Geneva Convention. What do you say to that?

A. Mr. Nice, I repeat again: I'm responsible for the area of responsibility of my unit, and I know quite distinctly that I informed all the soldiers about the measures and took all steps to prevent any untoward actions from taking place. ⁴⁷³²⁹

Q. Go back to our page 30, your page 16, please. The only reason this crime was tried at all, as I must suggest to you, was because, as Tesic said, he first reported the event to the security organ officer in his unit, Officer Rudic. Did you know Rudic?

A. No, Mr. Nice.

Q. Did you understand that the bodies that were -- of the dead people, the dead men were subject of an unsatisfactory, incomplete fire? Did you understand that? If we go over to page -- sorry, yes.

A. Mr. Nice, I repeat again: This is the area of responsibility of another unit and what happened there is something I'm not aware of, so I can't tell you something I did not see or hear about. I only heard about it when the trial began, what happened.

Q. You see, all these men were under your command or your associates. For example Kolundzic, we haven't taken the time to do it, his name is all over your diary. If we go to page 31, we see that Tesic explains the following -- top of the page. It's your page 17, please. Page 17. You've got the highlighted area. "Immediately after this event -" that's the following day - "Kolundzic reproached me for not setting fire when a fire should be set, and he mentioned The Hague." You officers had in your charge very young men and you could make them do what you wanted, and when any of them resisted, you could still threaten them with something like The Hague. Isn't that the truth?

A. Mr. Nice, that is certainly not the truth. So with my own personal example, I always influenced my soldiers and would never have allowed them to do anything that was not permitted. And let me state ⁴⁷³³⁰ again, what happened in the area of responsibility of another unit is something that I am not interested in. Because everybody must hold responsibility and take responsibility for what happens in his own area.

MR. NICE: Tesic's own use of drugs, Your Honours, can be found on page 32, but for want of time I go to his co-accused Sergei's use of drugs, on our page 40.

Q. Would you go to page 21, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness had said for ten times that that has nothing to do with his unit at all and I don't know why you are permitting Mr. Nice to waste time in that way, and I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that his cross-examination has been going on now for at least three times the length of mine and he has not challenged a single portion yet of what the witness testified about in the examination-in-chief. He's dealing with matters that have nothing to do with the testimony and the examination-in-chief and at the same time things that have nothing to do with this witness either, and he is wasting time quite unreasonably so, so I don't think there's any point to this.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you had indicated you were bringing your cross-examination to an end.

I will allow the question, Mr. Milosevic. It may be that it's a matter in respect of which the witness has some information.

MR. NICE: Thank you.

Q. You see, these young men were in your charge, under your command, at an earlier period of time. So let's look at your page 21, page 40 in ⁴⁷³³¹ the English, and remember what you said about drugs and alcohol. Now, this is what this young man said: "Before that evening, that event in the evening, I had taken Trodon, or Troedon [phoen]. I don't remember the quantity, and I'd mixed it with alcohol. I also took it after the event. The event took place in daytime at some point between 1000 and 1400 hours. I'd been taking narcotics before my military service, such as Trodon, marijuana, LSD, and ecstasy, and I smoke grass less frequently and in smaller quantities." Your men, in order to do these ghastly things you required of them, sometimes had to be on a combination of alcohol and/or drugs, didn't they, and you knew that.

A. Mr. Nice, that's just not true. That is the statement of a witness aimed at defending his acts and what he did. This soldier Tesic, while he was in my unit, was my personal security, and I guarantee with my head on the block that he never used drugs or alcohol. Otherwise, I would have sent him packing had he tried to do --

Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

A. -- so, because I didn't need a soldier like that.

Q. Quickly on to page 54, your page 27. Now, this is in the evidence of Rangelov again. This is what Rangelov said on -- parallel officer to you, page 27. He said: "I know that some soldiers took --" first of all, he says: "After the beginning of the aggression, I didn't organise any training regarding the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and I don't know whether the platoon commanders did." But he then says this: I know that some soldiers took various kinds of drugs and drank alcohol while carrying out tasks in Kosovo and that they mixed drugs and alcohol. I'm ⁴⁷³³² not aware of any deals with Tesic particularly." Even your brother officer knew that your soldiers had to take drugs to do what was required of them. Yes?

A. Mr. Nice that's just not true at all, not true at all. That is your observation and conclusion. I state again that while soldier Tesic was under my command, he didn't use any drugs or alcohol. Now, the fact that they gave statements of this kind, you can ask the Trial Chamber why they gave such statements.

Q. And finally --

A. I mean the chamber that they gave the statements to. And I know that in the area of responsibility of my unit, it was strictly prohibited to drink any alcohol or do anything else along those lines. So I didn't have any problems with that at all. It all depends on one's relationship to one's men and how you command your soldiers.

Q. Finally, you have asserted absolutely systematic instructions on the Geneva Conventions. Let's see what your superior officer, who has been a witness in this court, Vukovic, had to say about this on page 75, at your page 36. This is the high -- the high point, as far as he can go, and he says this: "During the above-mentioned aggression we did not have any particular training about how to treat the civilian population, wounded persons, prisoners. In this regard we had instructions which were kept by company commanders. These instructions set out how to treat these persons." Then he goes on to say the officers knew which -- which orders to obey and which not, but he makes it clear there was no particular training about the Geneva Conventions. There was none, was there? ⁴⁷³³³

A. Mr. Nice, I am responsible for the situation in my unit and I know that my soldiers were aware of this and had what they had with them and on them. Colonel Vukovic came towards the end of July 1998 to the unit. Now, why his former commanding officer didn't inform him of things like that is something I really can't answer.

Q. You see, Mr. Sel, as a result of your coming here and as a result of your eventually providing or having provided for you a contemporaneous record, it's been possible to find people who actually served with you. Contrary to all the evidence you gave about not involving Bela Crkva and not being involved at Celine and doing nothing at Mamusa, the truth is that from 1998 until 1999 the army in Kosovo was acting without any regard for the law. Isn't that the truth?

A. Mr. Nice, would you please limit yourself to my unit. As I said, I am responsible for the situation in my unit. I know that my soldiers, my subordinates did not commit any crimes or evil acts, and I stand behind that.

Q. But you exercised the power of life and death, and so far as women were concerned, you exercised the power over whether they should be abused and violated or not.

A. Mr. Nice, I do apologise but I have to repeat yet again: You are persistently trying to put before me a statement of a unit who left five days after I had come to the unit. Nothing happened. No civilian murders, no rapes, nothing of that kind while I was in command of -- of my unit. So these are statements from soldiers who had fled from the unit and tried to be granted political asylum in some other country on the ⁴⁷³³⁴ basis of their false statements.

Q. Not so far --

A. And I've come here for the truth and I have taken the oath and declaration to tell the truth.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... appreciate Witness D was a soldier right to the end, and you've come here, Mr. Sel, to lie to this Court without any contemporaneous document to support either the statements you made to the VJ commission or the maps that were drawn by someone for you to adopt. Isn't that the truth?

A. Mr. Nice, first of all, you've insulted me. I haven't come to lie here but to tell the truth, and it doesn't serve you in good stead to say that. I stand by what I said in my statements and my work. I'm a professional soldier. Let me repeat that once again. I conducted myself professionally. It is common knowledge against whom an army fights, launches into battle, and against whom it doesn't.

Q. My last repeat question but I want you to have a very good opportunity to consider this. Can you, for your unit or for Vukovic's unit if you have the knowledge, can you point us to any document that shows the taking of a prisoner of war or even a prisoner in the 1998 period and shows us what happened to that prisoner? Can you point us to any document?

A. Mr. Nice, I think that you should contact the former military court in Nis and the prosecutor there. That's where you'll be able to find the exact data about what was done to the terrorists captured in 1998. They were handed over to the proper authorities, to the military ⁴⁷³³⁵ court, and were taken before that military court. There was no killing or any other crime.

Q. [Previous translation continues] ... ambushed, killed by you without regard. That's the truth, isn't it?

A. Mr. Nice, I do entreat you not to present fabrications of that kind. That's pure fabrication. The army just carried out its assignment. The terrorists started arming themselves first, bringing in weapons and fighting the army and legal authorities. We didn't pick a fight with them, they started fighting us, and it would appear, would it, that our officers and soldiers died of their own accord and were killed by an unarmed people. That's what one can deduce from what you're saying. And the army never opened fire first. It always opened fire second, with the aim of defending itself and its lives.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how long will you be in re-examination?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, quite obviously I have very little time left to the end of today's work. I'll try to use the time as best as possible, not to have to keep Lieutenant Colonel Sel here longer than today.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We will adjourn for 25 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: I should have asked for the notebook of the witness to ⁴⁷³³⁶ be exhibited and I don't think I've done that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: No. It will be exhibited.

MR. NICE: Transcript of the Mancic trial is a document of record provided to this Court. It's a matter entirely for the Court.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there any observation with regard to the admission of the Trial Record?

MR. KAY: First of all, the notebook and the translation of the notebook. We were very dissatisfied with the quality of the translation. Passages have been selected. For instance, the slaughtering passage. And on the face of it, it looks highly suspicious and incriminating evidence. Then you go to the passage itself in which apparently the B/C/S words used weren't clear in the Prosecution version, and they're quite plainly clear when you look at the original. The word "pigs" had been omitted, and that is a less than satisfactory way for the Prosecutor to operate within this courtroom whilst a witness is being questioned. We don't have time to check everything.

JUDGE ROBINSON: But you're not attributing any ill motive to the Prosecution.

MR. KAY: Well, it's less than satisfactory, and I would hesitate to go any further, but I think what should take place is that there's an official translation be produced of those passages that were used rather than the draft that we've got attached to it at the moment.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, Mr. Kay. In ideal circumstances, yes, we should have an official translation.

MR. KAY: Thank you. In relation to the transcript of the other ⁴⁷³³⁷ proceedings, in our submission that is not admissible for the same reasons that the Trial Chamber has given on many occasions before concerning the statements of other people not being called as a witness, and it's not a document arising at the time, it's not a document that speaks for itself, and the content and material is plainly challenged. So that, we do not agree should be admitted into evidence.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have to express --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Nice. Microphone, please.

MR. NICE: I have to express the gravest concern about Mr. Kay's expressions of concern. In fact, they're really quite offensive to a group of people who have worked extremely hard over this weekend to provide the best possible translation in the shortest possible time in circumstances where this witness could reasonably have been expected to have come with contemporaneous material and to have it been translated either by the accused or perhaps by Mr. Kay, fulfilling his functions as assigned counsel.

This material, it was first read once by an individual in my team and the shortest translations were done. It was then necessary to get extremely capable and industrious people to work over the weekend, which they did, and as I recall, the last part of the translation came to me by hand at about 5.00 last night. These people work extremely hard and it is actually deeply offensive for somebody who doesn't read the language to say the sort of things that Mr. Kay said, and I take exception on behalf of those members of this office who did this work. ⁴⁷³³⁸ I deal with a particular example. You take the word for either "shelter" or "slaughter." The word, as it's read, looks as though it's an A not an O, to me, and it's the difference between an A and O that makes the difference. As to the omission of words that are not clearly legible, I've always given a chance to this witness to try and read them himself, and the Chamber will recollect that I expressed some concern about that line and got him to read it for us. So those remarks from Mr. Kay absolutely rejected and I stand by the staff who worked so hard to try and keep this Chamber adequately equipped with useful material. So far as the transcript of the trial is concerned, this is a document that in some Chambers I think would be regarded as self-producing, that is to say it's an official document of record and it's been provided to the Tribunal. It's plainly of value and it's plainly of value because if somebody says something under the equivalent of an oath in a court of the former Yugoslavia, although you'll discover that the various witnesses from the Prosecution and defence say different things, of course, and leads to a decision by that court which was to convict all four men and to sentence them to terms of imprisonment from, I think, 7 to 3 years, then the observations made in the course of that trial may be of value, particularly the observations about drugs and the Geneva Convention, and I'd invite the trial -- the Trial Chamber to consider admitting it because it will plainly be of value. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, as far as this document is concerned, about the trial that is, the trial of these four ⁴⁷³³⁹ men referred to by Mr. Nice, I wish to remind you of the following: That Mr. Nice even said something inaccurate to the witness, that this was practically the only case when someone was brought to trial. That's not true. You saw General Gojovic's testimony where you saw that a large number of people were tried, even during the course of the war. Now, can this document be used as evidence is a different matter altogether, but it cannot be introduced during the testimony of this witness because this man has nothing to do with these men. It's not his unit. It would be as if you were to introduce some other document that had nothing whatsoever to do with his testimony. That is what I wanted to say on that score, but as far as the notebook is concerned, I fully agree that the work notebook should be exhibited but only in the original, not the translation. And you see that it is a translation with shortcomings, with some cardinal mistakes, and this is not the first time you've seen that, that there are such mistakes made in the translation. You've seen that there were many mistakes in the TV series that you had to check out here, only those that you did check out, let alone all the other ones where you did not check them out, and you yourself, Mr. Robinson, said several times to Mr. Nice that these were big-time mistakes.

So I would not assume that Mr. Kay's comments were insulting to the translators or something like that. I think that that is rather an overstatement.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: The record of the trial will not be admitted, in ⁴⁷³⁴⁰ accordance with our practice. The notebook, we'll admit those parts that have been referred to during cross-examination, because they have been -- those parts have been adequately translated. Any mistakes that were made have been corrected. And I'd like to say that the Chamber does appreciate the efforts of any party to have a translation done, because we know that the official translators are besieged, are under tremendous pressure. We note, however, that at times mistakes can be made, and when that is done then we have to take the necessary measures to have them corrected.

THE REGISTRAR: The number --

JUDGE ROBINSON: And of course any parts of the notebook dealt with by the accused in re-examination will be admitted.

THE REGISTRAR: The number will be 938.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sel, Mr. Nice suggested to you that there were no arrests or captures. Do you know how many members of the KLA were amnestied after the 5th of October? They were pardoned and released from our prisons.

A. Mr. Milosevic, as far as I know, they were all set free, all of those who had been sentenced previously. I don't know exactly the numbers involved, but I know that practically all of them were let go.

Q. All right. Well, several hundred were released. Could they have been released had --

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... and the question ⁴⁷³⁴¹ was not whether there were any captures, the question was whether this witness has come here with any knowledge of records or details, and the answer to that was none.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I remind you you're not giving evidence and no leading questions. Let the witness give the evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he himself said that he knew that they were all released. Only those who had been arrested could have been released, not those who were killed, but all right. Let me try to deal with this, these questions.

Please place on the ELMO this page 180, the one that was mistranslated, but please place the original on the overhead projector, so in the Serbian language in the witness's handwriting. I asked for the original to be placed, the original page so everyone can see what is written there. The handwriting is rather legible there. The page is 180.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So where there are two asterisks, it says what? Read it out once again, and you can all see what it says here where the two asterisks are.

A. Mr. Milosevic, this was one of the main tasks in order to prevent losses from NATO attacks, that is to say shelters --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down. The interpreters cannot keep up. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Sel, the interpreter is asking you to slow down. Please observe a pause between question and answer. ⁴⁷³⁴²

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please look at the word "zakloni." It is used twice. In both words you have A and O, these two letters. Look at it: "Zakloni."

MR. NICE: The correct interpretation is not for the accused, and he's doing what's done before with matters like this.

JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I agree entirely because the two As -- rather, the two that are supposed to be Os, one of them plainly looks like an A. It's there to be seen no matter what the accused might say about it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, can you take this any further?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the English and in the Serbian language - and the script here is Latin - A and O is written the same way, so there's no need to interpret that or translate that. Could you please show the word "zakloni" and "zaklonima." The letter A is the second one and the letter O is the fifth one in these words. Can you not distinguish between the two? It says it there very nicely "zakloni" and "zaklonima."

MR. NICE: I marked my text as being ambiguous, and I'm not going to take any points on it at the moment unless the accused insists because, for what it's worth, I don't read it in the way the accused is reading it, but there it is. But if the accused is simply going to destroy the value of any form of examination by repeatedly refusing to obey the Chamber's orders not to put words and letters into another person's mouth, why don't we just move on and doing something else.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if you have a question to put to ⁴⁷³⁴³ the witness, without yourself giving evidence, you can put it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Sel, what about the handwriting? Do the letters allow any dilemma? Is this not legible enough for you, and I hope for everyone who is watching this broadcast?

A. Mr. Milosevic, there is no doubt about this. It says very clearly "zakloni" and "zaklonima." It is an evident difference between the letters A and O.

Q. Thank you. The next two asterisks. All right, alcohol, destroy alcohol, and you said about that, and then after the comma what is the other word?

A. The other word, Mr. Milosevic, is "prasici"; piglets.

Q. All right, piglets should what?

A. Piglets should be taken out and no longer slaughtered.

Q. All right. Piglets, that's the word used; piglets.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Mr. Sel, please, the question of ambushes was raised several times here. Is an ambush a legitimate and usual activity in providing security for the state border or is it just something that you ordered?

A. Mr. Milosevic, this is a legitimate combat task that is carried out, not only for providing security on the state border but on all other areas as well. So it is a classical form of combat except that we applied it here on the state border. ⁴⁷³⁴⁴

Q. So you placed these ambushes in-depth?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that if somebody comes across an ambush, he'd have to pass by the border security?

A. Mr. Milosevic, until that moment, until a given moment, the army of Yugoslavia did not have the right to enter the border belt. It is well known who secures the state border. In-depth security means the first and the second lines. It is the border guards that are on the first line. So if something or someone passes by them, if they were not in a position to a cover this, then they come to us.

Q. All right. Does that mean that what can come to you is something that managed to slip by the border guards?

A. Yes. Yes. No one else could come across except someone like that.

Q. So what is the duty involved then? What is the customary number of people involved in such an ambush?

A. Mr. Milosevic, usually it would be ten to 12 men, including their commanding officer. So always soldiers were accompanied by their active-duty officer in charge. So on the basis of estimates made in terms of what groups would try to get through a given area. So it can also be more people that can be involved in an ambush. It depends.

Q. You explained that ambushes were placed in areas where smugglers were expected to pass through. You used that word "smugglers," armed smugglers.

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. They -- these ambushes are placed where it is ⁴⁷³⁴⁵ expected that armed smugglers will pass by; rather, armed terrorists coming in from training in Albania.

Q. So what would the task of the ambushes be? So the group would go by the border guards, they didn't notice them, so what was the task of your ambush, to shoot to kill or what? Tell me quite simply, what is the task of people on ambush duty?

A. Mr. Milosevic, ambush duty, according to all the rules and regulations, is to issue a warning, first and foremost, to persons who had come. However, since it's a question of night-time, depending on the strength of the enemy, then they would be taken out to a given area. In this case, they were warned and they were the first ones to fire at us. Our people only returned fire if they would shoot.

Q. So if they would shoot.

A. Yes. That's the way it always was. We were never the first to open fire.

Q. Specifically, how many times did it happen to your unit that they would open fire when they were in an ambush?

A. Specifically, Mr. Milosevic, my unit, in addition to the everyday ambush duty that it was involved in, never opened fire because no one tried to pass through my area.

Q. So there were no such attempts in your area?

A. No, there weren't any.

Q. Thank you. The question of Smonica was raised. You dealt with terrorists in Smonica; right?

A. Mr. Milosevic, in 1998 that was one of the strongest terrorist ⁴⁷³⁴⁶ strongholds.

Q. You mentioned in that area -- that in that area 20 soldiers were killed.

A. Mr. Milosevic, there were about 20 soldiers and officers killed, and some were wounded; some seriously, some less seriously.

Q. What killed these soldiers and officers in that area?

A. In that area, they were killed from terrorist fire, by terrorist fire; fire coming from the terrorists.

Q. Mr. Nice suggested when you were talking about mortar support that you had at the time, that mortars were randomly firing at the village. Was there any random fire coming from the mortars?

A. Never, Mr. Milosevic. Our mortars never opened fire randomly, but they always did the appropriate calculations.

Q. Is the 120-millimetre mortar a precise weapon, the one that was mentioned here?

A. In the hands of a good operator, a trained soldier, very precise.

Q. Was fire ever opened randomly, not at a firing point?

A. There was no random fire ever.

Q. Mr. Nice suggested that the bodies of the persons killed became a problem in April. Did you have anything to do with the bodies of the persons who were killed?

A. Mr. Milosevic, as I said, I never had anything to do with the bodies of killed persons because I never found them.

Q. You said that they were successfully pulling them out.

A. Yes, that's what I said when I testified the last time over these ⁴⁷³⁴⁷ past several days. They had a system pulling their wounded and dead out. That is to say, we found traces of blood as they were being dragged out, then also parts of uniforms soaked in blood, but we never found any wounded or killed terrorists, at least not where my unit operated.

Q. On page 62 of the diary, or, rather, not the diary but the work notebook, the expression "arrest and tie" is used. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And does "arrest" imply tying, that is to say handcuffing or using something else if you don't have handcuffs?

A. Is as common knowledge, the soldiers didn't have --

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- don't answer that. Move on, Mr. Milosevic. You have destroyed the effectiveness of any answer.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You were questioned at length, Lieutenant Colonel Sel, here with respect to the soldier that was -- that we called Soldier A here.

A. Yes.

Q. Soldier A is mentioned on page 33 of your notebook. Can you find that? Can you see that there?

A. Yes. The 25th of June, 1998. It says, "Search for (redacted) (redacted)."

Q. And then what does it say? "Check to see if he has arrived at the barracks."

MR. NICE: That's -- ⁴⁷³⁴⁸

JUDGE ROBINSON: We're in open session. That shouldn't have been mentioned, so that's to be redacted.

MR. NICE: If he wants to pursue the matter, it ought to go into private session.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, are you -- are you going to pursue this matter?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, I won't mention names. I did say Soldier A. That was spontaneous in the quotation, but we can refer to him as Soldier A, not to have to go into private session.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, so far as Soldier A is concerned, after all the -- the prescribed five days, I had to check whether he had reached the barracks and, if not, that within the space -- the legally provided space of time a pursuit was launched, search was launched.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You say after he had been -- gone missing for five days?

A. Yes.

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴⁷³⁴⁹

(redacted)

(redacted)

MR. NICE: Private session, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not going to name -- Mr. Robinson, name names at all. There is no need to go into private session. I'm not going to mention any names, I'm referring to the person as Soldier A.

MR. NICE: Well, he's achieving exactly by relating back to something that was done last week. For anybody who wants to do it, he's achieving exactly the same result. If he wants to raise this matter now it has to be done in private session. (redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted)

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the statement to which reference is made?

MR. NICE: Your Honour, this whole -- this should be in private session, with Your Honour's leave.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Let us go into private session.

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴⁷³⁵⁰ Page 47350-47353 redacted. Private session. ⁴⁷³⁵⁴

(redacted)

[Open session]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we only have 15 minutes. Where are you in your re-examination?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, quite obviously I can't conduct the re-examination as I had envisaged to do because Mr. Nice quoted very many things, but I'll do my best to use at least those 15 minutes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Take a look at page 31 now, please. Let's just go over certain matters but as quickly as possible, please. Have you found page 31?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. What does it say up there? Prevent what? Prohibit? It's in line 9. Prohibit what? Can you read that? What does it say?

A. Mr. Milosevic, it says "Prevent looting and taking away of weapons or equipment from civilian houses."

Q. Let's see what you refer to. Look at page 41 now, please. Have you found page 41?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. What does it say here? "To open fire," what?

A. "Prepare weapons for going into effect at night. Open fire only when you have visible targets and when you see a flash."

Q. And underneath that?

A. "Pursuant to an order from the commander."

Q. Right. Now, on the 5th of July, there was an official discussion. ⁴⁷³⁵⁵ What does it say there?

A. "On the 5th of July, 1998, at 2100 hours, an official interview was held with Branislav Kovacevic with respect to giving an official rifle to --"

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down because it's impossible to follow at that rate. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Please slow down. The interpreter cannot follow you at that speed.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "On the 5th of July, 1998 --"

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You've read that out. Go on. Go to the next one.

A. "At around 1930 hours, when the state flag was lowered, Avramovic and -- in front of the camp said that Avramovic was not allowed to shoot from a pistol. Avramovic took a pistol from Kovacevic and put a bullet and fired three shots into the air, three bullets into the air." So he fired three bullets into the air. Kovacevic's behaviour was not conducive to the conditions prevailing on the terrain, and he knew that he was not allowed to give official weapons to somebody else to use.

Q. Right. That means that you were -- they had had a bet that this one man was not allowed to shoot and then the other one went ahead and shot.

A. That is my legal responsibility as their commanding officer. I was duty-bound to take down a statement and to send it to the battalion commander for further proceedings.

Q. This one said he shot because they'd had a bet but he didn't ⁴⁷³⁵⁶ jeopardise anyone's life, so this kind of - what shall I call this? - act of indiscipline, you're making a whole report even if there were no casualties.

A. Yes. I'm duty-bound to do so, even if there were no casualties. It took place in the camp, so steps like this had to be taken.

Q. All right. Now look at page 47. You insist upon that. And it's the 29th of July, 1998, where it says, "The discipline of the soldiers --"

A. "The discipline of the soldiers, they're too relaxed, that the -- discipline should be raised and that they should be properly dressed and look like soldiers, that they should be well and properly turned out like soldiers."

Q. Look at page 58 now, please. What does it say there? It is the fifth line from the bottom. There is an asterisk. It says: "Prohibited contact with --" what does it say there, page 58? Forbidden contact with whom?

A. Forbidden contact with civilian population.

Q. Thank you. Let's move on. Turn the page, and that's on page 60, the next page. What does it say at the bottom there, "Disciplinary measures --"?

A. "Disciplinary matters should be discussed immediately or resolved immediately and steps taken against the soldiers that have upset law and order where they have failed to perform their basic duties."

Q. All right. Now, on page 65 what does it say there, somewhere in the middle? It says, "Undisciplined soldiers should be punished." Can you read that out. ⁴⁷³⁵⁷

A. Yes, yes. It says: "Undisciplined soldiers should be punished, that is to say prevent all forms of lack of discipline where law and order is upset and stimulating matters should be on a company level for soldiers who are carrying out their assignments properly."

Q. What does it say on page 116 now in the middle?

JUDGE KWON: Just a minute. Can you go back to page 60, the line we read just now, "Disciplinary measures." The previous paragraph, what does it say, Mr. Sel? "Popovic, Misel, Kozarski." Could you tell me what it is about?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, this is what that it is about: It says: "Regular reporting to the battalion commander, rewards or penalty." So Srdjan Popovic, Sergei Misel, or Kozarski Darko might have stood to gain a reward, whereas disciplinary measures should be taken against soldiers who had done something wrong. So I can't remember whether they were stimulative measures or disciplinary measures; whether they had done something well and should have been rewarded or something bad and should have been sanctioned.

JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Could you look at page 116 now, somewhere in the middle. It says, "opening fire."

A. Mr. Milosevic, three asterisks, the same thing: "Constant tasks, opening fire only at certain objectives." That means no random fire and no unnecessary opening of fire.

Q. And then you also describe some emergency event on 131, page 131. ⁴⁷³⁵⁸

A. A bullet was fired --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down considerably.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sel, you have to slow down considerably, considerably.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. "Bullet fired at KPS3 guard post. All soldiers should be checked, and they should be told of the possible consequences as regards the security of other personnel."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. So you're writing down even the smallest omissions. On page 135, at the bottom, "Behaviour of soldiers." What else does it say here?

A. It says: "Behaviour of soldiers and soldierly appearance - without complete equipment they cannot go anywhere." I think that's what it means.

Q. All right. And the next page, 147, you say at the very beginning: "Draw the soldiers' attention to --"

A. "Draw soldiers' attention to wearing civilian clothing in camp." So it is impermissible to wear civilian clothing on camp.

Q. Please look at 168 and 169. You talk about the 28th of March, 1999. The first line, what does it say?

A. The first line, "Disciplined soldiers."

Q. All right. And what does it say in the last three lines, and it pertains to the 29th of March, on this same page.

A. "Review the soldiers' equipment once again. Transistors, Walkmans, cassette players." Since according to the rules they are not ⁴⁷³⁵⁹ allowed to have that --

THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please wait for the end. There is a passage omitted, interpreter's note.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic and the witness, because you are overlapping, we have just missed a passage in translation.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It is prohibited to go to the store and drink alcohol. It is prohibited to leave the premises except if there is absolute necessity, inform soldiers --"

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. There is no need for that. Look at the 1st of April. Number 2, it is prohibited to leave what? What does it say there?

A. Number 2, "It is prohibited to leave the camp. Children are not allowed to come near soldiers and also to get close to motor vehicles." That means that there were still civilians there.

Q. And children were interested in motor vehicles?

A. Yes, as children usually are.

Q. What else does it say?

A. "Take away grenades, rockets, and other ammunition from soldiers. Vehicles should only be operated by soldiers, not -- only soldiers who are drivers, not officers."

Q. All right. So it's all --

A. Regular activities.

Q. What does it say on the next page when you look at the next page, the top, after the list of soldiers, the caps, and what, prevent what?

A. Where is this? ⁴⁷³⁶⁰

Q. 170, the very top. "Prevent --"

A. I haven't got it here.

Q. It's the next page after this one. Just turn the page. In the upper left-hand corner.

A. No. The upper left-hand corner is the list of vehicles that were destroyed.

Q. And below that?

A. "Prevent crime."

Q. That's what I wanted to see, what it says there. What is on page 172, what you wrote down there? "Warning to Serbian armed forces." What does it say?

A. Mr. Milosevic, that is one of the leaflets that came from NATO aircraft. There were several of them. I have them here. If necessary, I can read it out.

Q. All right. But what does it say, what you wrote in your work notebook? You actually copied out a leaflet?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And what does it say there?

A. "Warning to the Serb armed forces: You are at NATO's gunpoint. Stop your operations momentarily and return to your garrisons immediately. If you do not obey, NATO will consider -- continue attacking your unit."

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we can't go beyond 1.43. There is another case here this afternoon.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Just a few more questions. I'm going to put just a few more questions. ⁴⁷³⁶¹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Not a few more. I think just maybe one. Do you have just a few more to finish, to conclude your re-examination?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it would be unfair to the witness if I kept him here any longer, Mr. Robinson. I would like to finish the re-examination today, so I really don't want to lose any time. And may I say that Mr. Nice, last time in public session, when quoting some statements, if I can put it that way, from his own transcript said many ugly things about the witness, and then in closed session you made it possible to me -- for me to say that this witness was lying, and that is why I want that statement to be struck from the record, because it is totally untrue.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead with putting another one or two questions.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let's just see 182 and 183 now.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. What's here on 182, the third line from the bottom? The word "crime" is there, "kriminal." What does that pertain to?

A. Help me find it, please.

Q. Page 182 at the bottom, the third line from the bottom.

A. It pertains to preventing all forms of crime in the area of defence of the unit.

Q. All right. What's on the next page, 183, on the right? "Sorties," and then what does it say?

A. "Sorties by NATO Air Force, keeping communications, civilian ⁴⁷³⁶² population, thrust."

Q. All right. What was brought into question here was whether the soldiers were informed and whether training was conducted with regard to respecting international law of war. You showed the rules for combatants. Did every one of your soldiers have these rules?

A. Mr. Milosevic, every one of my soldiers had these rules.

Q. When did they get them?

A. It was handed to them in 1998.

Q. Was there a single soldier who did not receive a copy of these rules? Did they all carry them in this form that you have them here now, a laminated copy?

A. As far as I know, Mr. Milosevic, all of my soldiers had that.

Q. Obviously I cannot cover -- please look at this -- this other page after the counting. I haven't got the number here now. I think it is eight and nine.

A. In the other notebook.

Q. Yes. What have you got here under number 1, 2, and 3, only three these things.

A. 1, again sorties by NATO Air Force, communications, problems with the civilian population.

Q. Does NATO Air Force have to do with problems with the civilian population?

A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Q. Why?

A. They were leaving their areas, their houses. They were revealing ⁴⁷³⁶³ our positions by leaving their houses, or they were putting locators near our positions, and that is why I mentioned the problem of the civilian population who is showing in this way where our positions are.

Q. Please turn the page, and what does it say there? "Do not respond to provocations," it says, where the list of the company is, right?

A. That means do not respond to provocations of NATO Air Force so that our positions would not be revealed.

Q. All right. Two more pages. And then you have, "Personal appearance of officers and soldiers, shaven with their hair cut, going on leave only properly dressed." What else does it say?

A. What page is this?

Q. Two pages further on from what we looked at. Just two more pages. Just have a look at that because the pages cannot be seen here.

A. Mr. Milosevic, that means maintaining regular discipline and hygiene on the part of soldiers and officers. That is to say that they cannot grow beards. We know what a soldier is supposed to look like, especially when he goes on leave, too, and even in the situation when there was the NATO aggression against our country, soldiers would go home on leave.

Q. What else does it say here? "Without my knowledge no one can go anywhere." And then: "Not opening fire unnecessarily anywhere." Is that what it says here?

A. Without my knowledge, no one can go to the command. That means leaving the area of defence and allegedly going to the command. Unnecessary opening of fire; no, just at certain targets. ⁴⁷³⁶⁴

Q. Now, in relation to page 23, you have a case of someone drinking alcohol. What does it say there on page 22 towards the bottom: "In May 1999 --" the name is not important.

A. On that day I had a soldier who was in town and had drunk quite a bit of alcohol. As he was drunk, he almost injured himself. So I took measures and I prevented him from doing that and I had a conversation with him. When this soldier told me about his problems and everything he had, I let him go home the next day.

Q. He had some family problems, then?

A. Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm trying to make sure that you conclude today, but we are now encroaching on the time of the proceedings that follow.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've finished. I've finished. I'm not going to keep the witness any longer. Just one more question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you read this work notebook of yours yet again?

A. Mr. Milosevic, I didn't read it. It must have been seven years now since I read it.

Q. What about now when you got it?

A. No, because I didn't have it. I just read out these excerpts that you asked me to read now.

Q. On the basis of what you read and on the basis of what Mr. Nice quoted, do you have a single thing written down that would confirm what Mr. Nice is saying?

A. I have no such thing. ⁴⁷³⁶⁵

Q. Thank you, Mr. Sel.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have concluded.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Nice, you have something to say?

MR. NICE: I have three points, I think. First, I think the witness has been referred to one or two pages not translated. Either those pages might be themselves translated, or alternatively the Court might take the view with this document that it should be marked for translation -- marked for identification and all translated in due course.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the entire notebook should be admitted, because that's the only way in which you can see the entire context, and then you can really see that none of the things that Mr. Nice has been claiming are contained there.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The entire notebook is admitted and marked for identification pending translation.

MR. NICE: Second point, very shortly, lest any --

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. NICE: Second point: Lest any future witness should be unfairly commented on as a result of an error of mine, when I was dealing with ambush on the basis of Witness D, he was referring - and I was reminded of this by Ms. Tromp and I didn't correct it in time before I ⁴⁷³⁶⁶ finished - he was dealing with ambush of people leaving the territory not necessarily coming in. I must make that clear on his behalf, should he ever become a witness.

The third point is that there is a motion before the Court which we would press the Court to deal with, if it possibly can, before any adjournment for the holidays. The Court should know that Serbia and Montenegro has not complied with the requests or orders made last week for the production of documents, and if we don't have the motion that's before you resolved before the Christmas holiday, then there will be an enormous passage of time before we are able to have documents that may be of very grate value, so we would press you to consider a document that's been filed this morning in some haste but nevertheless filed to represent the present position.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's a late filing.

MR. NICE: I don't know whether it's a late filing but rather than -- the alternative was to ask for time out of this morning's hearing, and I knew that would be problematic, and it's a filing that builds in part upon observations of His Honour Judge Bonomy last week, and we would ask you to give it the most careful and urgent consideration if you possibly can.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, the pseudonym document, is that to be admitted?

MR. NICE: I'm happy for it to be admitted under seal.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, to be admitted under seal.

THE REGISTRAR: 939 under seal. ⁴⁷³⁶⁷

JUDGE ROBINSON: I am to say that we will resume the hearing of this case on Monday, January 23rd. The additional time granted is in respect and in response to Mr. Milosevic's application for rest. He should use the period accordingly.

Mr. Sel, that concludes your evidence here. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave. We are adjourned.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day

of January, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.